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Sept. 5, 2023 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:15:15

"MY TODDLER ENRAGES ME!" Freedomain Call In

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	I'm all yours, so yeah, what's going on?
	How can I best help?
	Well, when I sent the email, I wasn't really able to tell you a whole lot, so I tried to put it as brief as I could, the situation.
	But I just kind of wanted to expand on it a little bit.
	I think what I told you was that I think I have a really awesome toddler and I'm very much in love with him but lately I've been struggling with these feelings of disconnect and anxiety to get away from him and sometimes I even I'll get so anxious that I start to get mean with him.
	I have yelled at him and I'm not peacefully parenting the way that I want to.
	And I just don't understand why I'm behaving this way and who am I serving, I guess, is the question.
	How old is your son?
	He's three. The one that I'm talking about.
	And it seems like this all just kind of happened after the baby came.
	Yeah, and how was your pregnancy, I guess, first and second?
	Both pregnancies were very easy.
	The second one was just a little bit harder, but I would still consider it uncomplicated.
	The birthday process was really easy.
	No complications there.
	Babies were healthy.
	I was very depressed during the pregnancy with my first one, actually, now that I'm thinking back.
	I was very depressed. I guess I should give you a little background on his story because he's not from my husband.
	I had him before I met my husband and I was making some really bad decisions and then after I had them I said okay well I gotta clean up my life and then I met my husband and made a commitment to do better But because of the circumstances, I was a single mom, I was very depressed.
	I guess it sounds like I'm making an excuse, but really I think of it more as like, okay, that explains it, but I fixed it.
	But I wonder if some of that kind of lingers forward.
	I feel like I had a stronger bond with my son because we had those first 18 months, just me and him.
	I was living on savings.
	I didn't go to work.
	I made that a priority for us just to build that bond.
	But I don't know how much of that depression is kind of still lingering underneath.
	Or maybe the bond isn't what I thought it was, or as much as I hate to think of it, I wonder if maybe because he doesn't, he's external to this family that I've created, am I kind of partitioning him in my mind?
	I don't think my husband's doing that, and I really don't like to think that I'm doing that.
	I just, why is he different?
	And I don't know. Yeah, it's a tough situation.
	I certainly applaud you for reaching out for some help.
	Do you want to tell me what was going on with your son's biological father?
	What was the story of that relationship?
	Oh, sure, yeah.
	Well, I had a...
	I'm actually... I called you a couple of years ago when my son was a baby.
	I'm the one who...
	I had the extramarital fling and went back to my husband and then, well, you had very sound advice that relationship was dead.
	We ended up splitting up and here I am now.
	So just to refresh you on any details that you might not remember, that father is not in the picture at all.
	He doesn't take an interest in my son.
	I don't reach out to him.
	I did in the beginning, but then I decided, you know, he's not going to choose it, and I'm not going to force it on him.
	I'm sorry, and the father was not the person you had an affair with, but the man you were married to, is that right?
	No, no, no, you've got it backwards.
	I was in the process of a divorce with my other husband, and in that emotional state, I had an affair before the divorce was completed with the father of my son.
	But you were separated from your husband, is that right?
	Yes. We were separated.
	And what was the story with the man you had the affair with?
	Were there any sort of signs ahead of time that he might not be the very best father for your child?
	Absolutely. He has his own son who is quite a bit older.
	He suffers from cerebral palsy and This this man, his father really.
	In my. And from what I could see did not do much to.
	Interact with him, give him stimulation.
	He just set him up with a twin and would let him sit there all day without any.
	Human interaction, he wouldn't protect him from his private mother.
	He he just.
	I had no spine when it came to being a father for this boy, and that's why I decided that I was not going to let him be a father for the son that we created together.
	That's why I left him.
	Right, and what was so attractive about him for you?
	Um... He was there.
	Uh... He's not exactly handsome.
	He... Has a stable job and I was coming out of a very chaotic situation.
	I was panicking.
	I think you had a phone call not too long ago with a woman who came out of her marriage and went straight into the next because she was looking for security and stability and that rings true for me too.
	And I'm sorry if we did talk about this before, but remind me of how you, I mean, were you having unprotected sex?
	Is that how you got pregnant? Yes and no.
	It was unprotected.
	I thought I was protected because I was using the fertility awareness method, but I was using it incorrectly.
	I didn't educate myself well enough on it.
	Right, okay, got it, got it.
	And your son, has he asked, or does he know about his biological father versus his stepfather?
	We haven't emphasized the point, but we're not hiding it from him.
	We have mentioned once or twice, you know, well, dad is your dad, but he's not your biological dad, and then we've We've talked about his father and him existing.
	He has met him a few times, but it's very sparingly and there's no conversations in between.
	So I don't think he fully.
	He's only three and he actually he won't be three until Wednesday.
	So I don't think tomorrow.
	I don't think he'll fully understand that for a few years, but we were not keeping it secret from him.
	Right. And was there a male around, like maybe an uncle or a grandfather or something, when your son was little?
	I guess that coincides with how long?
	You said you, I think you were 18 months single before you met your current husband.
	Is that right? And was there a male around for your son at all at that point?
	Well, I was living with my grandparents, so he had my grandfather's influence.
	And I actually met my husband when he was nine months old, but I didn't move in with him.
	We didn't have that official relationship involving my son when he was 18 months.
	Right. Tell me a little bit about how you met your current husband.
	Well, I met him with purpose.
	After I was done being depressed, I decided that I needed to find a father for my son.
	Then I got online and I started leading out all the bad guys.
	I rejected hundreds of guys before I decided to go on a date with this one.
	When I did, I You know, I saw some potential.
	We had a lot of great conversations and, you know, obviously we ended up getting married.
	And he didn't have any kids or prior marriage before you got married, is that right?
	Actually, yes. I also have a stepson now.
	He's 13. So there's quite an age gap.
	He's a little, yeah. And what's the age gap between you?
	Oh, my husband, he is my age.
	He had his son when he was 18.
	And what happened to that relationship?
	That relationship...
	Well, I guess I don't exactly know how it fell apart.
	My understanding is that they were young.
	I think she cheated on him.
	She didn't want to be in the relationship.
	I'm sure there was, you know, some...
	He was working a lot.
	He may not have been attentive.
	We haven't exactly gotten to the bottom of it.
	Honestly, I have a great relationship with her.
	She's still in the picture.
	I don't want to dig too deep.
	I'm sorry, say that again? I said that I have a great relationship with her, his ex, and my stepson's mother.
	So I don't want to dig too deep and attach judgments to To whatever happened in the past, because whatever it was, they got over it, they're co-parenting beautifully, and neither of them puts themselves above their son.
	Okay, good, good. So you have the new baby, you have the one who's going to be three tomorrow, happy birthday, and you have the 13-year-old, right?
	Yes, exactly. Now, you were...
	How long were you depressed for?
	You said you were depressed during the pregnancy.
	And of course, I mean, you've got a marriage falling apart.
	How long after you got pregnant did you realize that the father of your son was not the guy who was going to be good for long-term stability?
	I think it was probably about five months in the first couple months of my pregnancy.
	I was...
	Kind of in denial about being pregnant and you know, I know all kinds of complications can happen.
	And I just, you know, what if what if I had a miscarriage or what if something happened where this pregnancy didn't meet term?
	So I was kind of refusing to.
	To acknowledge the pregnancy at first and then after I got over that stage, I spent two, maybe three months.
	With his father really trying to.
	To work out our differences and encourage him to, you know, well, here's the father that I expect to have for my son.
	Can you be that?
	And. Just trying to accept.
	The situation that I was in, but.
	I mean, I could.
	Go into details about the situation, but the bottom line is that it.
	It was not going to be a healthy environment for my son.
	I was. I predicted.
	I predicted that I would have to carry the entire burden of raising my son myself and he would be a provider and nothing else.
	Well, and you would, I guess, inherit his son, the son who was unwell, right?
	Yes. And, you know, it was difficult.
	I did spend some time taking care of him.
	And I don't think that would...
	Without knowing, in the time that I did spend taking care of him, I don't think that it would have been the end of the world.
	Of course, it's not what I wanted, but...
	He was still...
	I fell in love with that boy while I was there.
	It breaks my heart because I was in a situation where I had no say over how he was cared for.
	And I guess that was the difficulty is I wanted to enrich his life.
	And his mother was the one who thought that she would not talk to me.
	She wouldn't Every suggestion I had to make him feel better.
	He had all kinds of digestive issues.
	Or, you know, to try and get him stimulated so that maybe he could be verbal.
	She just. She saw it as a personal affront that I was trying to use super you super and.
	I just could tell that this wasn't going to work.
	I couldn't spend the rest of my life taking care of this boy with that woman.
	Right, okay, and when did the depression begin to lift after your son was born?
	Um...
	I think he was probably close to six months old.
	Um...
	I think for the first four months for sure I was very depressed and then I spent about two months kind of coming up and then going back down and coming up and then going back down and then after about six months I think that's when I finally I kicked myself in the butt I said you can't do this you've got a son so I left him in the eye and I promised I was going to take better care of him and I feel like that's where I'm at but I'm still not Emotionally, where I want to be.
	Right, right. Okay.
	And when did it start to happen for you that you felt more distance from your son?
	I think...
	I've been thinking on this, and I really think it happened when I was still in bed with the baby.
	And I had kind of a hard postpartum.
	I was in bed for a month.
	With low blood pressure so I was getting dizzy and I couldn't carry him.
	But my son was in bed with us and he was bouncing around and playing and he fell on the baby's head and I just felt so angry with him.
	I yelled at him and I told him to get out and he started crying and I started crying and ever since then I feel like that's when I've given myself that excuse to get angry with him or to yell at him.
	Okay, okay. Can you tell me a bit more about...
	I guess he was a little over...
	How old was he when the new baby was born?
	He was...
	This was only three months ago and his birthday's tomorrow, so he was about two and three quarters.
	Okay, so he was...
	You're all having a sort of family relaxed time in the morning in the bed and then he's jumping around and he lands on the baby's head, right?
	Well, it was bedtime, but yes.
	Yeah, he was jumping around on the bed and playing, you know, as a toddler might want to do.
	And when he did, he landed on the baby's head and the baby started crying and, you know, thank God he's okay.
	And I knew that pretty quickly afterwards, but seeing my brand new baby get hit in the head like that, no matter who it came from, just made me feel so angry.
	And I'm not excusing myself, but I've apologized to him so much for yelling at him.
	Not just that time either, but...
	Okay, so, sorry, so...
	He's jumping around and, of course, you know, he's, let's say, two and a half, two and three quarters.
	So he's not going to have any sense of the baby's fragility.
	He's going to view the baby as like a doll or a toy.
	Exactly. And so he's not going to have any sense of the baby's fragility.
	So... Sorry, was your husband there as well?
	No, my husband was not in the room.
	So why...
	I don't want this to sound accusatory, like I'm genuinely curious.
	But why were you letting your son jump around with the baby?
	Exactly, yes.
	And again, I know this sounds like, why were you...
	I don't mean it that way. I'm just curious.
	This is not the first time I've had this conversation.
	No, I agree. And we're trying to set boundaries.
	It happened very fast.
	He came into the bed and then I think it was...
	15, 20 seconds later, he was jumping and landed on the baby.
	How many times, I know this sounds odd, but how many times did he jump before he landed on the baby?
	I would say two, maybe three times.
	And had you had a conversation with him about how delicate the baby was?
	Yes, while I was still pregnant and then again after the baby was born.
	This was just a couple of weeks after he was born, but It's been an ongoing conversation, and here we are three months later, he's finally starting to get it.
	But we've really had to go to some lengths to set boundaries, and that's another conflict.
	That's a persistent conflict that I have with him.
	He adores his baby brother, and he wants to be close to him.
	He wants to hold him. He wants to hold his hand, and we do those things.
	We also, I have a hard time managing the boundary of when he gets too playful and rambunctious, leave the baby out of it, stay away from the baby, be playful over there.
	He doesn't want to because we used to roughhouse before the baby came and now we can't roughhouse anymore and that's not something that I prepared him for.
	Sorry, so you and your son, I know you have two when I just say your son, I mean, I'll refer to your son and the baby so I don't have to do junior and senior.
	So you and your son used to, sorry?
	I call him a teenager, a toddler, and a baby, and it's the easiest way.
	Got it, got it. So you and your son used to roughhouse play that way before the baby came, and he still wants to do that and isn't Very clear on don't do that around the baby, is that right? Yes.
	And what's your son's relationship with the teenager, as you refer to him?
	They have a beautiful relationship.
	The teenager loves sitting down and playing with him.
	He only spends half his time with us, of course, but when he's here, he makes it a priority to spend quality time with his little brother, the toddler.
	So, they're very playful, they get along great, there's very little conflict, and I've been teaching them how to resolve conflict with win-win scenarios.
	It's wonderful to see the teenager learning how to do that.
	And are there any characteristics of your son that remind you of your ex, mannerisms or vocal styles or body language or eyes or anything like that?
	He looks nothing like me.
	So he looks very much like his father, but his personality is all his own.
	He's got a little bit of Me and his personality, a little bit of my husband and his personality, and there's a lot that I just, I don't know who it is except for him.
	Right, okay. Now, babies are going to get physically hurt by older siblings, right?
	I mean, it seems to me, I could be wrong, I've not had to manage multiple children, but I was in fact the younger sibling, and You're going to get hurt by your older siblings.
	And Peggy thought that we could wait a year before that would start.
	Sorry, tell me what you mean.
	I just mean that in my head, in my fantastic ideal, I just kind of imagined that the baby wouldn't get hurt until he was a little more mobile.
	And I have no reason for thinking that.
	Well, but I mean, your son is used to roughhouse play.
	He has no idea how delicate the baby is, and he climbs up on the bed and starts jumping around, right?
	Exactly, yeah.
	Now, of course, knowing the risk that there is in that, when you sort of look back, is there anything that you could have done to better protect your baby?
	Yeah, I think so.
	Like I said before, I really don't think that I prepared my son well enough for the fragility of the baby and how we have to be soft and quiet and gentle.
	I spent my entire pregnancy trying to prepare him for the time consumption and we bought books to read together and all the things that come with having a baby But I didn't, I just feel like that's such a huge oversight.
	I didn't think about how he would be, you know, I've got this rambunctious little toddler around a fragile little baby and I just feel like I should have seen that too.
	Well, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I mean, this is a, you know, you're a lovely young lady, but this is a specifically female way of trying to protect a baby, which is to build offensive words and assume that the two-year-old will listen and understand, right?
	So you're like... So for me, again, this is maybe a male or a father perspective or whatever, but if a child is jumping around my baby...
	I literally will throw myself on top of my baby to make sure that nothing lands on it.
	Like, it's not a words thing.
	It's like, well, I've patiently gone over how delicate the baby is.
	It's like, I will throw my body over my baby.
	I will physically shield my baby.
	I will throw my arms over my baby or whatever it takes.
	And I will, you know, jump up, pick up the two-year-old's Take him off the bed, and not in an angry way, but just, you know, have to remove a potentially dangerous situation.
	So you've got a lot of language going on, which I appreciate, and I think it's a good thing.
	But the backup to language is just physical, like physical meat arm protection, if that makes sense.
	You're accurately describing the difference between the way I handle it and my husband handles it.
	I know. I know. Because you're all like trying to build these magical shields of words and I've patiently explained it.
	And it's like, but you're dealing with the boy.
	Right? You're dealing with the boy.
	And, you know, boys are kind of physical and kind of chaotic and rambunctious and very affectionate and all of that as well.
	And of course, every child goes through the phase, like we all start with no control, like we can't even, if our nose is itchy, we can't scratch it.
	This is why babies cry, right?
	And so boys go through a phase, and girls too, I mean, I've raised a girl and all of that, so where they don't know their own strength.
	So like my daughter, you know, like most kids, likes giving high fives, right?
	And she would give a high five as hard as she could, right?
	Sometimes, right? We called it the hard five, not the high five.
	And, you know, when she was little, she would give the high five as hard as she could and be like, oh, that's so sweet.
	It was barely a tap, right?
	But then when she gets older, she gives a high five.
	It's like, wow, that really hurts.
	You know, like I've got a red mark on my palm and all of that because she just needs to be aware of her growing strength.
	And, of course, the same thing is true with boys.
	So, as a man, and, you know, I'm sure some moms do this too, but it seems to be a little bit more father to mother.
	You are like, but I explained it.
	I told you, right?
	And you're angry because it's like, no, no, no, I've explained it, right?
	And you're not listening and that's like an act of aggression against me.
	Because I've used my words.
	I understand this sort of frustration, but you're like, I have made sounds with my mouth hole that should control you like a magic spell.
	And whereas men are like, yeah, he's a boy, he's going to jump all over the place and he's going to land on the baby, so you've got to physically protect the baby because, you know.
	I mean, so this idea that you've had words and your words create an absolute moral responsibility in a two-year-old?
	You understand? If your words were able to create an absolute moral responsibility in a two-year-old, your two-year-old would be a legal and functional adult.
	No, I'm not kidding about that, right?
	I see that. Right?
	I mean, if you were to say to your two-year-old, listen, man, you've been living here for like way over 24 months.
	So it's time to cough up some rent, kid.
	Like, you've got to go and get a job.
	You've got to pay some taxes.
	Like, stop just draining this family of resources and start contributing something back.
	Go get a job, pay some taxes.
	It wouldn't kill you to learn how to drive.
	You know? I mean, that would be like...
	I mean, I'm obviously...
	But that would be like treating him like an adult when he's a kid, right?
	Mm-hmm. So...
	And it's funny. I mean...
	You know, as I find women delightfully incomprehensible, I love the language stuff.
	It's very important, and it's one of the foundations of peaceful parenting.
	So I'm not trying to be negative on the language stuff that you're using at all.
	And I'm not trying to say that's good parenting, and I appreciate that.
	But language doesn't work 100% on kids.
	How do we know that? Because they're kids.
	And they're impulsive. But I would submit it's not...
	I mean, you know all of this, right?
	You've got a two-year-old boy who's had some chaos in his life, right?
	Which is not to say that's all that's causal in it, but you've got a two-year-old kid jumping around around a baby, and the dad is like, okay, I have to cover the baby, right?
	And the mom is like, no, no, it'll be fine, because I've already explained to him how delicate the baby is.
	No, you're... Great on the money and I really needed to hear that because I'm really committed to being a peaceful parent and that's why I decided I needed to get on the phone with you because I'm yelling at him and that's not fair to him.
	But you're not yelling at him.
	No, you're not yelling at him.
	Come on. I mean, you're an intelligent young woman.
	You're dedicated to peaceful parenting.
	Massive props, respect, admiration.
	Good for you. You know for an absolute fact, because you're not crazy, that you can't be angry for months at a two-year-old when you're the one who failed to physically protect your baby, right?
	You know that that's not him, right?
	Well, yes, and that's why I need to figure this out.
	Oh, I could tell you what it is, if you like.
	And the moment I say this, it will be blindingly obvious, but please don't kick yourself because we can't see ourselves, right?
	So I can tell you what it is.
	All right. So let's look at this boy's husband.
	Now, I could be wrong.
	My certainty doesn't mean that I'm right.
	So if it doesn't fit your experience or your thoughts or your feelings...
	Well, okay, so you said this boy's husband.
	Do you mean his father? I'm sorry, this boy's father, yeah.
	And so again, just because I'm certain about something doesn't mean I'm right.
	I could be certain and completely wrong.
	Okay, so if we look at the pattern here, if we look at the pattern here, what we see is you are unable to feel protected and secure and safe using your words, right?
	Right. Yes. I feel so helpless when he tells me no.
	Right, right. Now, your depression, and I understand it, of course, right?
	I mean, you're a single mom, you've got a divorce, you've got a guy who you had unprotected sex with that you now realize is not going to be a good father at all.
	He's kind of a disaster, right?
	So you tried, and this is why I asked earlier, so you tried for some months To get your son's father to commit to being a father, right?
	Yes. Now, his lack of commitment harmed your son, right?
	I mean, you were depressed, you were stressed, you were worried and all of that.
	And of course, back then, you didn't know that you were going to meet your current husband in nine months and get married in 18 months or whatever, right?
	Right. So, you tried for months Well, I'm sure you tried with your prior husband to get him to be a better person based upon your language and to take care of your heart, to take care of your security.
	After you became pregnant with your son, you tried for months to talk his father into committing and being a halfway decent father, right?
	Or maybe to commit to you, to bury you and so on, right?
	So you tried...
	To keep your baby safe by talking to your son's father.
	Like when your son was a baby.
	And a fetus too, right?
	Right. So you tried to use your words to gain safety for your son.
	And you couldn't. It didn't work, right?
	They were powerless, yeah.
	I'm sorry? They were powerless, my words.
	Your words were powerless and this harmed your baby, right?
	Yes So here we have a mirror of that situation
	Which is you've explained patiently to you two-year-old boy how delicate the baby is you've tried to prepare him
	but he's just not listening to your words and He harms your baby in the same way that his father
	Didn't listen to your words and harmed your baby I
	Have never on that parallel Now
	Now, you're in a situation, which I understand, there's no criticism here, just exploring, right?
	You're in a situation where you are finding it virtually impossible to forgive your son, right?
	I don't know if I would go that far.
	I feel like I forgive them, and then something else happens, and I forgive them, and then something else happens.
	But it seems like the longer this goes on over the last couple months, it takes me, you know, it would take me longer to get to that point where, okay, let's play.
	I'm perfectly fine again.
	Let's play. Whereas before, you know, I needed maybe two minutes, three minutes, and now I'm feeling I don't want to minimize it to saying grumpy but that's the word that comes to mind.
	I'm just feeling like I don't want to play with you for 10-15 minutes and then sometimes just as we're starting to play again something else will happen and it feels like it's going on all day when really it might be a cumulative hour throughout the day but that feels like forever and I Maybe that is me not forgiving him.
	I don't know. Because, yeah, I guess it's just building on whatever happened earlier in that day and maybe I'm not thinking about that specific instance anymore, but the feelings are building and I'm having a hard time dissipating them and just being present with my son.
	Okay. Now, The reason I'm sort of drawn back to your son's father is because adults can do wrong and they need to earn our forgiveness, right?
	Yes. Now, you're projecting that paradigm or that perspective on your son as if he's an adult who can do wrong and needs to earn your forgiveness.
	But he's two.
	Like he's two, right?
	So can a two-year-old do something immoral?
	No. Well, no, right?
	Of course. Especially the two-year-old who is under your care and control and has been since the moment he was conceived, right?
	Right. So a two-year-old can't do anything immoral.
	Now, two-year-olds can be dangerous.
	I mean, as you say, he jumped on the bed and sat on your baby's head or whatever, right?
	So two-year-olds can be dangerous, but they're dangerous, but not because of immorality, right?
	So my question is, why are you layering a moral judgment on your two-year-old who's not capable of moral action, of moral choice?
	Look, I'm sure he's capable of empathy.
	I'm sure he's capable of kindness.
	I'm sure he's capable of sweetness and affection and all of that.
	But he's two. So he can do some basic moral reasoning, but he's not, like, you're creating this ghost called intention, right?
	Which is, you know, he harmed the baby by jumping up and down on the bed, and the only way that he would be morally culpable...
	Is if he understood that the baby was fragile, had the capacity to restrain his own actions, knew where he was going to land, and intentionally harmed your baby with full moral knowledge of the consequences, right?
	In other words, you're putting a two-year-old on trial here.
	No, can you imagine a trial?
	Judges, lawyers, witnesses, prosecution, defense, Exhibit A, Exhibit 666, right?
	Sorry? I said he cried all the time.
	But just so that we're clear, I don't think that he meant to harm the baby.
	I don't think that he did that on purpose at all.
	I think he was just playing, and it was an accident, and I failed to protect the baby.
	Okay, so then, but you got angry, right?
	I did. Okay, and you got angry at him.
	I did. Right.
	So when we get angry at someone, There is, and that anger has some moral element to it.
	I see what you're saying.
	There's badness, right?
	In my mind, logically thinking, I know better than to blame him.
	I know better, I... Sorry, go ahead.
	I really don't, maybe emotionally I am blaming him, but I'm thinking about it logically, and of course I know it's not his fault, and I knew that in a moment.
	I didn't know that in the moment.
	I didn't think about it wasn't his fault.
	At the time, all I thought about was, my baby is hurt, and you are the cause.
	Right. Now that's, but that's incorrect.
	Right? That's incorrect.
	He was not the cause of your baby being hurt.
	Not on purpose.
	No, no. Not at all.
	Okay, walk me through this.
	Okay. Who is responsible for protecting your baby?
	Is it your son, who's two, or yourself?
	I think so. Right.
	So if your baby is harmed by a two-year-old, I'm not saying fall to blame or anything, but in terms of the causality, If you are responsible for keeping your baby safe, and your baby ends up being harmed, you and you alone are responsible for that.
	Not your son, not a two-year-old.
	Okay, so he's no more responsible than if something had fallen on him that I did not put on the shelf correctly.
	Well, I mean, he has the general moral responsibility of an inanimate object.
	So if your baby tumbled down a set of stairs, I'm not saying that, right?
	I mean, then you wouldn't yell at the stairs and have them ripped out by a contractor and replaced and then grind them into sawdust and put them through a wood chipper and punish them so that the stairs felt bad, right?
	Okay. Because what's happening is you are saying...
	That he did something bad and wrong.
	And you can say, well, he didn't mean to.
	Okay, but if he didn't mean to, why would you yell at him?
	You would yell at him because you blame him.
	That the reason why your baby, and your baby didn't get hurt, thank heavens, right?
	But the reason why you were scared, and again, I don't mean to be overly male-female, but in my experience, to a small degree, I think what happens for a lot of women is my baby got hurt or could have gotten hurt.
	I feel so unbelievably terrible about that that I can't hold myself accountable because I don't want to go back to being depressed.
	I don't want to go back to being anxious.
	I don't want to... Like, it's so overwhelmingly negative that you need a scapegoat so that you don't attack yourself too much, too hard.
	And maybe cripple your own ability to pair bond or feel like a good mother or like, I can't, I can't, and especially when you've had a significant brush with something like depression and so on.
	And so rather than say, thank goodness my baby wasn't hurt, I need to be much more rigorous about dangers to my baby.
	I need to physically...
	Maybe I talk to my husband and find out how he does it.
	But I need to physically protect my baby better.
	Because I'm a female, so I don't understand boys as well as I understand girls.
	And boys are chaotic and rambunctious.
	And your son... I obviously don't know him, but I would guess based upon sort of the male-to-male brain.
	Your son was thrilled and excited...
	To have the baby, to have a stepdad or whatever.
	So your son was jumping around in joy and had absolutely zero intention.
	But he's... First of all, he's two, so he doesn't have any fine motor control, really.
	And he's also jumping on a bed, which is soft and squishy and it's easy to fall, right?
	And so you had...
	You know, you can call it like nature's warning.
	Like nature's warning is like, you need to be more careful.
	Because... Your son is a boy.
	He's chaotic, right? I mean, there's that element to it, and some girls are as well.
	So you had one of nature's warnings, which is you need to understand something about your son.
	Boys are almost never more dangerous than when they're enthusiastic.
	When they get giddy and happy and excited, man, you break out the Band-Aids, right?
	Because someone's going to get a bruise, someone's going to get a knee to the head, and all of that, right?
	Great. You know, when your kids are sad, you know, you give them a cuddle and so on.
	When they're excited, they'll run and headbutt you in the groin.
	Like, it's just, I don't know why it is.
	It's like nature punishing you for happiness or something like that, but it's like a horror movie, you know?
	The moment you relax, the moment you're happy, someone's going to get injured.
	And so you probably went from a very sweet time to a very scared and upset and angry time.
	And... I mean, of course, as a parent, if you ever do anything that puts your kids in danger, you feel absolutely wretched for every reason known to man.
	But what's happened is, I think, you've got stuck in a groove.
	And the groove is, my son, his behavior needs to change so that I can feel safe.
	But the problem is, that's not going to work.
	Because he's two, or almost three, right?
	So you are focusing on controlling your son's behavior rather than learning the lesson which is there are times where you just if your son gets up and starts jumping on the bed you need to jump up and physically take him off the bed or throw yourself over your baby's form so that your baby can't have a boy land on him that you need that level of physicality And that's raising sons.
	I mean, obviously, in some girls too, right?
	Tomboys and so on, right? Or, you know, just regular old girls.
	But I think a little bit more the case with sons.
	So there's a physicality involved in raising sons that moms, I think, you know, if your primary caregivers and so on, We just need to understand that boys are kinetic and chaotic and we careen around like pinballs.
	I'm sorry, nobody gets those references anymore if you're under 50.
	No, no, no.
	I used to play pinball. Okay, so you know, like the balls are just, you don't know where the heck they're going.
	They're just bouncing all over the place and that's the boys' kinetic energy.
	And of course, that comes with great affection and so on.
	But As boys, I mean, I don't know if you've been, well, you've got a 13-year-old, right?
	So you've got a 13-year-old, and I don't know if he's hit his growth through it yet, but boys get this physicality and muscularity that takes a long time to learn how to manage, right?
	So if you're around teenage boys, what do they do?
	They eat all the time, and they walk like they're incompetent puppet masters, like they move around kind of awkwardly, and like they've They've got some levers up in the head that they just haven't quite got the hang of because they're growing like, you know, a couple of inches a year and their limbs are getting longer.
	And it's kind of weird. Like if you woke up with a body one third taller and wider tomorrow, you'd be knocking over a whole bunch of stuff, right?
	And he is.
	Actually, they both are because my little one just had a huge growth spurt in his feet.
	He's falling all over the place.
	Right. So, and again, I can only, having experienced a boy and raised a girl, I'm no expert on this, but from what I've sort of observed, there is more of this sort of kinetic and chaotic energy around boys.
	You know, the boys are a little bit more footprints on the ceiling, right?
	Right. And, you know, it's a beautiful kind of energy.
	It's kind of nice. It's why we have houses and a civilization and roads and cars and air conditioning and taps that produce water when you turn.
	Like, it's good stuff.
	But were you raised, I can't remember, were you raised with brothers at all?
	I have an older brother, but he's so much older than me.
	We weren't really raised together at all.
	Right, okay. So what you're doing is, you know, and more power to you.
	You're a woman, but you're looking through the girly world lenses.
	And in the girly world lenses, you can patiently explain to someone why you don't want him to do something, and that person will then not do it.
	I mean, and it's lovely.
	It's great. But that's not boy world.
	Boy town is different.
	I mean, when girls see a fence, they will generally move back from the fence, right?
	Okay. What happens when boys see something climbable?
	They have to do something with it.
	Well, it's a fence. I must get over it.
	I must see what's on the other side, right?
	Poke things through it or, you know, whatever.
	Yeah, like a bunch of teenage girls at the beach will wade a little bit into the water, will sun themselves and all of that.
	And what are the teenage boys at the beach doing?
	They're playing sports.
	They're digging, they're terraforming, they're creating castles and trenches, and they're throwing each other into the water.
	I mean, it's just the way of the world, right?
	And we can get upset if we want, but that's sort of pointless because, I mean, the reason your son is the way he is is because...
	Thousands of generations of women, just like you, have chosen him to be that way.
	Your son is a reflection of all the prior female choices about what they found attractive, including yours, right?
	Great. And this is why it's sort of funny to me when men get upset or annoyed at women.
	It's just ridiculous because women are who they are because of what men chose and committed to.
	And men are, boys are, as they are, because of what women committed to.
	So they're not foreign, they're not weird, they're not alien, they're different for sure, but that difference is the result of everything that kept us alive.
	So the, quote, carelessness of your son around your baby is because...
	Boys don't raise babies and men in general don't raise babies.
	We get handed the kids when they're like five or six.
	Well, it's never been his evolution.
	It's not what he's evolved for.
	I mean, it would be hard to imagine a little girl.
	It could happen, of course.
	I mean, maybe it's 51, 49.
	But it would be more hard to imagine a little girl jumping up and down around a baby and then landing on the baby's head or whatever.
	Again, just a little bit.
	And so for you, it's like, well, that's terrible.
	That's bad. But if you understand that this is just boy's nature, then you can say, okay, so my son's going to be more chaotic.
	God bless him. Wonderful.
	Again, it's why we have a civilization and roads and machinery and cars.
	So my boy's going to be a little bit more chaotic.
	So I need to be aware of that.
	I need to be cautious about that.
	Now, I think it's probably fair to say that given you're Prior choice, I'm sure your current husband's lovely, but given your prior choice of men, that your understanding of male nature may not have peaked in the past.
	I'm trying to think of a nice way to put it, but you didn't choose the best guys, right?
	No. Right.
	So your son exists to some degree because you did not accurately judge a man's character.
	Is that fair to say? And so your son jumping up and down, I won't say it's like the universe is trying to tell you something, but we can look at it that way.
	So the universe is trying to tell you something, that because you're having trouble understanding the nature of men, you're in danger.
	Now, was that somewhat true in the past?
	I mean, you were in danger, I mean, maybe not physical danger, I'm sure, but some emotional danger, some trust issues, obviously happiness, you didn't want to get divorced, you didn't want to become a single mother.
	And so the universe is almost like saying to you, now in the presence of your son, right?
	So with your son, you're getting a first-hand glimpse into the formation of male nature, right?
	Yes, yes.
	And you're resisting it and fighting it and try to control it.
	Okay. How is that working out for you as a whole?
	He's uncontrollable.
	Well, you can't control your son.
	Hang on.
	All you can do is reject him.
	Based upon the standards of femininity.
	So... If you look back at your prior relationships, my friend, what did you not understand about men that had them fail, like the divorce and then being the single mother and whatever else had happened before that?
	I've thought about this so much with my son's father that I think we've talked about I don't know how to put it through the lens of viewing his masculinity.
	In my opinion, it was lacking.
	He was very effeminate.
	Children are not interruption, that's why we're talking, so take your time.
	Yeah, well, he's here because of you.
	They all are. With his father, I would describe him as an effeminate man.
	He had no assertiveness, no go out and tackle the world and protect the children, and he had none of that.
	And I think he was...
	I don't want to say opposite because the opposite would be a good thing, but he was very different from my husband in that way, who was too aggressive to a violent extent.
	Oh, so was he physically violent?
	Yes. Okay, so you went from hyper-masculine to more...
	Yes, because I thought, you know, this is different.
	Right. And it was, but I found a middle ground with the husband that I have now and the one that or the father of my son was not a middle ground that was desperately seeking anything different.
	But yeah, with with my ex-husband, I can tell you more about him because I know him better.
	He was very violent.
	Very critical of the world and you're not always in a bad way because it was there was a balance.
	I was the optimist and he was the Senate.
	And. I guess his masculinity was just.
	Very. Unbalanced.
	I don't know.
	He wasn't.
	He let go of his gentler side.
	And your own father?
	Also very violent.
	He was an alcoholic and he's in jail right now.
	Has been since I was a teenager.
	Right. I am sorry. Sorry about all of that.
	For sure. For sure. Okay, so...
	And your father was an alcoholic For your whole childhood, is that right?
	Well, let me tell you a little bit about that story.
	They divorced, my parents divorced when I was three years old.
	When you were three years old? Yes.
	The reason they divorced was because I think my father was hungover or Something, but he was very grumpy one morning and he had a phone call.
	I was sitting right next to him when this happened.
	I remember it very distinctly.
	My mom was trying to get him to take a phone call from work and he didn't want to talk to them.
	He was sharpening his knife at the time and she was insistent and he turned to aggression and chased her.
	Into the garage where he pinned her down and strangled her with my sister and I watching in the doorway.
	And that's my first memory.
	And that was what triggered the divorce, is that right?
	Yes, yes.
	But she still chose to let us see him.
	So it wasn't long before he started turning his violence against us.
	He... Molested my sister and I. So while he still had that access, I guess he wasn't violent, but then he tried to pick us up for a weekend and he was drunk and I said something was wrong.
	I didn't want to go with him.
	He was very violent and aggressive with me, throwing me around, yelling at me, and this was the first time that he had been physically violent with me.
	He got us loaded in the car and stopped at the gas station and had his girlfriend take my little sister with him.
	I'm sorry, he had what?
	With your little sister? He had his girlfriend at the time take my little sister into the store.
	Well, he dealt with the other one.
	That's the words that he used.
	He drug me out of the car by my arm.
	I felt really sore for days afterwards, and then he lifted me up by my throat and told me that I'd better straighten up my attitude.
	He doesn't want to hear anything else from me, another peep.
	I don't remember exactly what this threat was or if he even made one.
	I just remember that he was strangling me.
	My feet were off the ground and I was scared.
	I never spoke to him again.
	I refused to go see him again after that.
	How old were you at this point?
	I was about seven.
	I'm so sorry. That's just, I mean, it's beyond appalling.
	And of course, I mean, the molestation is incredibly violent.
	It's such an invasion.
	It's such a violation of bodily sanctity and so on.
	So, I mean, to me, you're saying he wasn't physically violent, but the molestation is physical violence.
	It's worse than physical violence in many ways.
	Well, it was easy to I did not understand.
	As a child, I was a teenager before I really understood what he had done.
	When I started to become sexually active, I understood that what he did was wrong.
	Whereas before, I thought it was just normal.
	I was playing with daddy.
	Right, right. Right.
	So then your first husband was, again, this sort of caricature of fascist masculinity, and then your second husband was more effeminate.
	You found the balance with your current husband, right?
	Right. Well, I never married the second guy, but yes, he was definitely a contrast.
	And then this husband that I have now, I think he's great.
	He's absolutely fantastic.
	Does the provider...
	We're not wealthy, but he's doing what he needs to do to support our family.
	We've talked about me going to work just if we need to, and he absolutely refuses because he needs me here with the kids.
	I love and adore him for everything that he does.
	That's wonderful to hear.
	I'm perfectly thrilled. Now, with your son, you mentioned that you had lived with his grandparents, with your parents, or tell me the story about that.
	Oh, okay. So, after I left his father, and while I was still pregnant, that's when I went to go live with my ex-husband, hoping we could work things out.
	But... His violence only got worse after my son was born, so we ended up leaving there.
	Wait, so sorry, you went back to your ex-husband after you were pregnant with the man you had an affair on with your ex-husband?
	Yes, and that was the whole scandal.
	Was anyone telling you this might not be a great idea?
	Only everybody I knew.
	Okay, got it.
	So you see, sometimes people's words don't help you from making a bad decision, just as with your son, right?
	No, no, no, I explained to him that the baby's delicate.
	No, no, no, I explained that you shouldn't go back to your violent ex-husband when you're pregnant with the man you cucked on him with, or the man you made him a cuck for.
	Well, yes. Okay, so you should be, obviously, you should be infinitely patient with your two-year-old who's not listening to good advice when you, in your 20s or whenever it was, with a child's life at stake, were not listening to good advice.
	So maybe this is some of the self-recrimination, right?
	Because you exposed your child.
	Your son to significant danger because, of course, you know, if your ex-husband is physically violent while you're pregnant or while you're breastfeeding, then that can damage the baby either directly through impact or through stress hormones or, I don't know, you can look this stuff up for yourself.
	I'm no doctor, but I understand that for a mother to be significantly stressed and adrenaline and cortisol may not be the very best thing for the baby.
	So, I mean...
	If you in your 20s weren't listening to good advice about things that were blindingly obvious, I mean, it is blindingly obvious in hindsight, right?
	Absolutely. So if you in your 20s weren't listening to good advice at all and putting your child and yourself in significant danger, surely you can not blame your son, right?
	For not listening to good advice and accidentally harming a baby.
	I mean, that's humility, right?
	Humility is one of the big virtues.
	Because if you have higher standards for a three-year-old than you had for yourself in your 20s with everybody yelling – I mean, I don't want to trivialize the situation, but it's like you ever watch these horror movies and some guy is like, you go for help.
	I'll follow the bloody footprints.
	And everyone is screaming like, no, don't split up.
	That's the worst thing. Everyone is yelling at the screen.
	You kind of roll your eyes, right?
	And I'm sure that to some degree this was everyone around when you were, you know, you had an affair on your ex-husband or when he was married, you get divorced, and then you're like, oh, you know, the best place to go or the good place to go when I'm pregnant with my lover's baby is back to the husband I cheated on who was violent.
	Yes, and I even lost a good friend for making that decision.
	I'm sorry, you're just a bit far from the mic, if you could say that again.
	Oh, I'm sorry. Can you hear me better now?
	A little bit, yeah, go ahead.
	Well, I'll try and speak up.
	I was just saying that I even lost a good friend for making such a terrible decision.
	I chose my ex-husband over this friend.
	Right, right, right.
	Now, again, I understand the panic and you need something, so then I guess you re-separated from your Ex-husband when he was violent, and you went with your parents?
	No, you said your parents lit up when you were three, so where did you land?
	Great. I went to live with my grandparents.
	Oh, I'm so sorry. I thought it was your son's grandparents.
	So you went to live with your grandparents on your mother's side?
	Yeah, it was with my grandparents.
	They were both in poor health, and they wanted some help.
	I lived around the house so it was mutually beneficial.
	I agreed to do some housekeeping for them if they would give me their room.
	And this was the people who raised your mother?
	Yes. And these are the people who supported your mother's marriage to a violent man?
	Yes. So they're not too healthy themselves to put it mildly, right?
	No, absolutely not.
	Particularly my grandmother who's a little, especially in her age, she's quite violent as well.
	Oh, your grandmother is violent?
	Yes, it's my grandmother who's violent and my grandfather was complacent.
	Right, so the role switched a little bit with your mother and your father, right?
	Right. Okay, so basically you just went from abuser to abuser to abuser, and then to, I guess, the neglectful guy or the absent guy who was effeminate, and then you settled with your...
	Right. Right, okay.
	For whatever it's worth...
	That lasted about two months before I decided it was worth it to drain all of my savings if I had to, to get my own place.
	And we got this tiny little apartment where it was just the two of us.
	And I got him out of that situation too.
	No, I don't have a very good history of excellent decision making.
	Well, I mean, I get all of that, and I sympathize with all of that, you know, with the caveat that you were brutally abused as a child and had just about the worst role models known to man, God, or devil.
	So, I mean, there's certainly some understanding for me around all of that.
	So, how old was your son when you left your grandparents?
	That was about the six-month mark.
	Okay. Okay.
	Because that's when I decided that what I was doing wasn't working and I had to start taking ownership.
	I had to stop relying on other people to save me.
	Did your son experience or witness any violence from your grandparents or your grandmother I suppose?
	Some. There was yelling.
	I say that like I'm not complicit.
	Like, I didn't have anything to do with it.
	Her and I got into yelling matches, and that was my deciding.
	That was the push I needed.
	Right. And you were there for just a couple of months, is that right?
	Just a couple of months, yeah.
	Right, okay. And so your son was about six months old when you left, is that right?
	Yes. I... You're asking about violence that my son has been exposed to, and there is one incident in particular that was extremely violent, and I don't know if I'll ever talk to him about it, but I feel like it's necessary to this conversation.
	While I was living with my ex-husband, with my son, my ex-husband very violently He raped me right in front of my son.
	He was awake and he was watching me and I was looking at him and I'm sorry son.
	And my son did bear witness and he was just a baby but I don't know how that affected him.
	And did you press charges?
	No, I didn't.
	I had already pressed charges on him during the divorce.
	Divorce, sorry. I removed the charges so that I could move back in with him.
	Do you mind if we take a five-minute break?
	Yeah, no problem. I won't cancel this recording, so just mute and if you know how, you know how to mute and just finish out when you're ready.
	No problem. Okay, thank you so much.
	You're welcome. I'm just going to take him to the bathroom.
	Okay, I'm back.
	Alrighty, welcome back.
	Everything alright? Yes, thank you.
	No, no, no problem at all.
	He had to go for potty. Children and never an interruption, right?
	Okay. So you were saying that you had dropped the charges against your ex-husband and I wasn't sure why.
	Well, because that was his condition for A smoothing at my me going back to him while I was pregnant with my first son.
	I filed charges.
	He assaulted me and that's why we decided to get a divorce or I decided and then I changed my mind when all of a sudden I thought I needed him to Save me from my bad decisions.
	And that's kind of what our first phone call was about.
	Well, not about the assault.
	I don't think we mentioned that at all in the phone call, but I was asking him to save me.
	And that wasn't his job.
	Right. Well, especially because he was partly damning you too.
	And after the second assault in front of your baby, did you leave him that time?
	I wish I could say yes, but the answer is no.
	I was determined to work it out.
	I just felt like if I was committed enough, if I put up with enough from him, then he would see that that I could be the wife that he wanted and he would want this baby because who doesn't love a baby and it was it went on for about four months um I think my son I was about three or four weeks postpartum when this break happened Right.
	So, I mean, again, I don't mean to trivialize, but the decision-making process was something like, well, he's a bad, dangerous, and violent husband, but if he's raising my lover's baby, it'll be better?
	Well, when you put it that way, it doesn't sound so great.
	Well, you know, if I introduce the child that I had with the man I had the affair on my violent husband with, he'll become more peaceful and a better husband.
	Yes, and I heard that from everyone around me.
	Yeah, everyone's telling you the same thing, right?
	Yes, and I can try and justify it to you the way that I did then, but I don't even agree with myself back then anymore.
	And this was in your mid-twenties?
	No, and that's part of it is I was 29.
	So I was just feeling like, okay, I just wasted my entire 20s with this man if I can't make it work.
	Because I have no idea how to get out there and date and, you know, start a family or find a different father.
	Nobody's going to want me. I'm a single mother.
	And apparently, you know, if you just get out of that mindset and work on yourself and fix yourself and take ownership, then it really helps.
	Well, I'm sure that your husband or ex-husband at this point was also not exactly pumping up your self-respect.
	No, not at all. And what's your relationship like with your...
	You said you don't have one with your father, but what about your mother?
	That is...
	I wouldn't say that I have a good relationship with her.
	I find myself...
	Since having my first son in a position of me?
	I'm sorry, I'm having trouble hearing you again.
	Okay, actually, since I came back, you seem quieter too.
	Oh, I seem quieter? Yeah, yeah, you seem quieter on the headset, and I'm not sure...
	I didn't change anything on my end.
	No, I'm sure it's not you, I'm sure it's me.
	Yeah, yeah. There's a volume...
	Dial on the headsets and I may have knocked it down.
	Can you hear me better now? Yes, that's fine.
	Thank you. Okay.
	What I was saying is that I recognize that I have no quality of relationship with my mother.
	I wouldn't say that we're friends.
	I wouldn't say that we're great.
	But we get along and she was tremendously helpful to me and useful to me.
	When I was stuck in bed with this new baby, she traveled from another state to come stay with us and do all the cooking and cleaning and she was she spent time with my toddler and she was very patient with him.
	She was the mother that I wish she was for me with him.
	So, we spent years not talking.
	And then after I had my son and you know, when you feel like you need someone,
	you overlook, well, maybe not you, but I feel like I need somebody, speak for myself here.
	I overlook some of the downsides and I become less strict on my personal requirements.
	So I accept that she is not a great person.
	She was very neglectful to me as a child and she was complicit in my abuse and she has not done anything to apologize for that.
	So you have a demand in a sense that your two-year-old boy take responsibility but you don't have the same demand for your mother?
	I have demanded it from her.
	No, but you're not enforcing the demand.
	It's a request, really. It's a nice-to-have, not a have-to-have, right?
	Okay, so yes, you're right now.
	However, I spent several years, three, four years, not talking to her with the intent of waiting for her to be open to that conversation with me.
	And then when I had my toddler, I... I backed up, backed out on that in a moment or in my desperation for support.
	Well, but, I mean, you're continuing that, right?
	I mean, you still have a relationship with your mother and your mother still has access to your children and so on, right?
	Exactly. Yeah, I have not retouched on that conversation with her.
	So your mother married and enabled a pedophile who sexually assaulted his own children, right?
	And then, to me, again, I'm no lawyer, but my sort of amateur understanding of lifting a child up Darth Vader style and choking her is attempted murder, right?
	Yeah. And she's never taken ownership or apologized or taken any responsibility for any of that?
	And she's also shown that she has the capacity to be kinder and nicer.
	So that means she's more responsible for not doing that.
	And she also modeled, for you, she modeled helplessness in the face of male violence, right?
	And so when you were in the face of male violence, you bonded and were helpless in the face of it, right?
	Yeah. What does your husband think of his stepmother?
	Oh, sorry, of his mother-in-law. He has the same opinion that I do, just that she's useful to us right now.
	She's been helpful. He doesn't have the same disdain for her that you're experiencing right now or that I have felt in the past.
	Disdain? What do you mean by disdain?
	That's a very interesting word.
	Well, I just think That it's despicable what she has done.
	And the fact that...
	Okay, what angers me probably more than anything is that she listens to you and she knows better.
	So hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	I'm sorry. I've just tried to emerge from these depths without getting the bends.
	Okay, so just bear with me for a second here.
	So if I understand this correctly, I'm not yelling at you, I'm just being emphatic, right?
	Because I really want to make sure I understand this.
	So if I understand this correctly, my friend, your mother chose a pedophile, if I understand what you're saying correctly, as the father of her children, enabled his violence, his abuse, his molestation, Sent you repeatedly to him, despite the fact that he would...
	I mean, again, my amateur understanding would be something like attempted murder.
	I know after that you didn't go, but I'm sure she wanted you to.
	So you've got this woman in your life, and she's relatively welcome, right?
	With all of this history of aiding and abetting and enabling evil.
	You understand... In my view, again, I'm not a lawyer, but in my view, if someone's committing a crime and somebody else is making it possible, they are aiding and abetting that crime.
	She might not be the back robber, but she sure as hell is the getaway driver.
	She might not be the murderer, but she sure helps bury the bodies, right?
	So you've got this person in your life who's welcome by you and your husband, right?
	But who are you mad at?
	Why did you call me because you're upset with someone?
	Who are you upset with? Seems like I ought to be upset with myself.
	Your two-year-old. You're mad at your two-year-old.
	Yes. And this is why I talked earlier about the forgiveness stuff, right?
	So you're having trouble forgiving on a regular basis You're a two-year-old for being rambunctious.
	You're having real trouble forgiving him.
	But you've forgiven your mother who's never even apologized or taken any ownership.
	And when you say, well, you may say, well, I haven't really forgiven her.
	And it's like, well, she's there.
	She's got access to your kids.
	She's part of the family.
	So that's functional forgiveness.
	I see what you're saying.
	So you're not mad at your mother who married and enabled a semi-murderous child molester and has never taken ownership or apologized for it, setting you on a path to all of the challenges and violence and so on that you endured.
	You're fine with her, but the person you're really mad at and won't forgive or have trouble forgiving is the two-year-old little boy, the toddler.
	I mean, what the heck is going on?
	How can this be the person you have the biggest problem with in your life?
	is the helpless dependent little boy.
	I mean this is one of the biggest...
	And listen, I'm not criticizing you.
	I'm not mad. I'm just jaw-dropped.
	Because again, you've listened to this show, I guess we had a conversation before, so the idea that you're inviting, you and your husband are inviting and welcoming to this monster of a woman, in my opinion, but boy, Boy, that two year old who jumped on the bed,
	whew, I'm having trouble forgiving him, man.
	He's really bugging me.
	And that your husband would also feel the same way.
	Yeah, she's useful to us now.
	She's helpful. She's more of a positive than a negative now.
	I mean, he loves you.
	You're the light and love of his life.
	I'll just tell you again, from my perspective, from my perspective, if the woman I loved had someone around Who had facilitated and enabled her violent abuse and sexual molestation as a child.
	Do you think that person would ever darken my doorway?
	No matter how useful they might be, does utility get to buy off decades of absolute stone evil?
	Boy, but your son jumping up and down on the bed, that's a problem.
	.
	Like something very unusual to me, and again, I don't mean this in any negative or critical way, like I'm generally a little flabbergasted, and again, if you were some unknown listener, it would be a different matter, right?
	But you've been listening to the show for years.
	And you didn't call me up to say, oh, you know, my, and I still have this Woman who facilitated my abuse and molestation and chose this guy and sent me to this guy and defended me having to go to him and I finally had to pull out all the stops after he half tried to murder me in the parking lot of a gas station.
	You know, I'm really having trouble, you know, because this person's in my life.
	No, you email me and you say I'm mad at my toddler.
	I'm having trouble forgiving my toddler.
	I mean, I don't know if this makes any sense from sort of the outside eye, but I genuinely have no idea what these moral priorities are.
	Well, I have no defense.
	No, I'm not attacking.
	I hope you understand that. I'm not attacking.
	I'm just really trying to bend my brain around these corners.
	And I don't think that I'm going to convince you that it's different than the way that you just described.
	No, listen, if I'm wrong, please, absolutely.
	The last thing I want to do is be inaccurate or unjust in any way.
	So if I'm incorrect...
	Look, because if you say to me, look, my mother's reformed, she's better, she's different, she's useful, she's positive, she's helpful, it's like, okay, well then...
	Then you...
	Have no problem forgiving people who don't even repent of great evils.
	Okay, so then if you have no problem based upon your mother, if you have no problem forgiving people, then we wouldn't even be talking.
	Why? Because you'd be forgiving your son even a thousand times more than you've forgiven your mother, right?
	But you're holding a grudge, or you're holding a series of grudges, if I understand this correctly.
	You're holding a series of grudges against your Two-year-old son, but you have forgiven your mother, who hasn't even acknowledged or repented or apologized.
	She's not done any of those.
	My decision to involve her and ask her for help was based purely on Need as I described, but also because I have witnessed her with my son and as I said before, she's she's attentive.
	She's different than when I was a child.
	She's giving him what he needs.
	I approve of her behavior in the moment.
	And it.
	Yeah, I guess it forgives the past.
	I didn't consciously do that.
	But over the course of the day, your son does things that are better or worse, in your view, right?
	And you're having trouble letting go and forgiving the accumulation of problems you have with your son, right?
	So he behaves better over the course of the day, quote better or whatever, right?
	In ways that are more pleasing to you, and then he behaves in ways that are less pleasing to you.
	And so he is reforming himself over the course of his day, but you're having difficulty forgiving him for past misdeeds even when he behaves better.
	I mean, I assume he hasn't jumped on the baby's head since that day, right?
	No, that was a single incident.
	That was a single incident?
	Yes. Okay, so your son has reformed, right?
	Like your mother has reformed but you forgive your mother but not your son
	I'm trying to navigate this Well, look, if...
	I mean, a couple of months in the life of a toddler is like, I don't know, five years in the life of an adult, right?
	Or ten years or whatever, right?
	Because, you know, toddler time is very different.
	So if better behavior on the part of your mother earns your forgiveness...
	Why does better behavior on the part of your son, in that he hasn't jumped on the baby's head, why has that not earned your forgiveness as well?
	If there's a principle which says, well, better behavior in the present, means that they don't even have to apologize in the past, right?
	And your son has been sorry about this, right?
	I'm sorry? I just want to interject with a little bit more information.
	I know this is going to sound like oh well my toddler did this and and I'm blaming him but I really I don't feel this way that you know that I'm blaming him however it has been an ongoing problem with him where he's hanging on the baby he's grabbing and squeezing his arm he's bending it around Just like you said earlier, he thinks the baby's a rag doll.
	And so it has been...
	I mean, jumping on his head was certainly the worst of it.
	And nothing's happened like that since then.
	Well, I'm sorry, but he didn't jump on his head, though, because that states intentionality.
	Okay. He accidentally landed on the baby, but he didn't jump on his head, because that sounds intentional.
	No, you're right. You're right.
	I accept that correction.
	He landed on the baby...
	Nothing's happened like that.
	However, since then, he has done these other things to the baby.
	And there are other instances outside of his interactions with the baby that also I feel frustrated about.
	And what are those? Well, he's a toddler and he's...
	Learning that he has power, he's learning that he has will, and when he tells me no, sometimes I feel really angry.
	And helpless because I want him to do something.
	I want him for example.
	He. He is able to help himself to the candy in the freezer, and I guess I didn't feel angry then.
	Let me just think of an example.
	Take your time. We're not on a clock here, so take your time.
	Okay. Here's something that I felt angry about.
	With the baby, I'm practicing elimination communication.
	That means that I take him to the toilet when he has to go potty.
	And one of the things to ease that...
	I'm sorry, with the baby...
	Sorry, just help me out.
	You sort of blurred over something there that I'm not sure I'm familiar with, if you could break it out a bit more.
	Okay, so there's a practice that some parents do with their babies called elimination communication.
	Have you heard of it? No.
	Okay, okay. So...
	Babies, some babies, will go in the toilet if you show them that that's a place that they can go.
	And this particular baby that I have, he has expressed a strong desire, a preference, to go in the toilet.
	So when he cues me that he has to go to the bathroom, I'll take him.
	And hold him over the toilet, and he'll release it, and then we put a diaper back on him.
	It's not 100%, but it does keep him happy, and that's why he was so upset earlier, because I wasn't listening to his cue.
	I'm sorry, Ed, just remind me how old your baby is.
	He's almost three months.
	Almost three months. So, okay, that's fairly early, but all right, go on.
	He started at four days.
	Wait, he started wanting to go to the toilet at four days?
	Yes, so if you're curious, I'll explain to you how I discovered this.
	Every diaper changes with most babies was very upsetting for him.
	He would cry and scream on the table until he released.
	And then he would suddenly feel better.
	And maybe you experienced that with Izzy.
	But when I recognize that with him, I took him to the toilet and he stopped crying during diaper changes.
	He stops screaming. I take him.
	I hold him over the toilet. He holds his vows and his bladder until we get there.
	And then he releases in the toilet.
	And he kind of, you know, relaxes and coos to let me know that he's done.
	And I put him back in the diaper and he's fine.
	Well, I mean, that's the glorious diversity of babies, right?
	Everyone is different. Hey, if that works, then that's what he wants.
	No problem. Yeah, it sounds crazy, but it's true.
	So I'm telling you all this to tell you that part of that process to make it more comfortable for me is I keep a stool in the bathroom, whether I use my toddler's stool in the bathroom to sit on to hold him over the toilet.
	Well, this particular day, my toddler...
	What if he needs to pee?
	Doesn't his, like, he's the little fireman, right?
	How does he, do you hold him, like, face down?
	I mean, what if he needs to pee? Doesn't it just go everywhere?
	Oh! Um, okay, so the position is crucial.
	Um, I hold him with his back to me, and we are both facing the back of the toilet.
	Um, and I just kind of put his little bottom in the hole.
	Um, so if he pees, it just shoots to the back of the toilet bowl.
	And, um... And it just goes down into the water.
	Fascinating. Fascinating. I'm sorry to interrupt.
	Okay, so your toddler's stool, you sit on the toddler's stool, is that right?
	Yes, I sit on the toddler's stool.
	And this particular day, he did not feel like he was getting enough attention from me.
	And sometimes I don't know if he's just being a toddler and he wants my attention all the time or if I'm doing something wrong and I have a hard time with that balance.
	But that's another conversation.
	That's what he was feeling in this moment, and in order to get my attention, he took his stool from the bathroom and put it in the hallway so that I could not use it to take the baby to the bathroom, to take him potty.
	So I solved the solution.
	That's a smart kid, man.
	Honestly, that's brilliant.
	Because when you sit on his stool, you're gone for a while, right?
	So he wants you to be around.
	He wants to spend time with you.
	So in his mind, okay, well, when mom goes into the bathroom and my stool's there, she's there gone for a long time.
	So if I want to spend time with her, I'll just take the stool away.
	Like that's smart in my opinion.
	He's incredibly smart and he blows my mind all the time.
	He's a great manipulator too.
	No, he's not. No, he's not.
	No, he's not.
	Don't use that word. No, no, don't use that.
	No, manipulation is a negative word and he's not a manipulator because that's indicating that there's conscious intent.
	He's doing, like all toddlers do, he's doing what he can to get what he wants.
	That's not being a manipulator.
	Because, you know, that's an adult word that indicates some sort of dishonesty or malign intent.
	Okay, no, that's not at all how I meant it.
	I just mean that He's very good at moving the situation around so that it favors him.
	Well, or another way of saying is that he can't get what he wants by saying stuff, so he has to maneuver the environment.
	Exactly, yeah. Okay, but the problem is that he's not getting what he wants by talking.
	Therefore, he has to change the environment to get what he wants.
	Okay, so sorry, so go on.
	So he took your stool and put it in the hallway.
	And it is his stool.
	We call it his stool.
	It is his possession, and I'm only borrowing it when I use it to take the baby to the bathroom.
	And has he given you permission to do that?
	I don't think that I explicitly asked him.
	Well, what do you mean? It's his stool.
	You want to use it, don't you? Don't you?
	I mean, you want him, you got mad, oh, sorry, when he took the candy from the freezer without permission, isn't that bad?
	I mean, don't you need to ask him if he can use the stool and then respect it if he says no?
	Because if he says no, I guess you go online and you order another stool for five bucks or something, right?
	So did you ask him, did you ask him, do you mind if I use your stool?
	Here's why. And if he says, I don't want you to use my stool, okay, I respect that, right?
	I don't think that we had that exact conversation.
	Now, there have been times where he has told me, I don't want you using my stool, and I do want to say that I do respect that, or with anything of his, I do respect his property, right?
	Sorry, he's told you that he doesn't want you using his stool, right?
	In other instances, yes.
	Right, right. So he doesn't, but, you know, for a kid, it's not like, well, you can use it 60% of the time, because he's two, right?
	So he's told you he doesn't want you to use his stool, right?
	Yes. And you have ignored that and continue to use his tool.
	And then you're concerned that he's not respecting the baby's boundaries.
	Well, you're modeling it. You just do what you want, right?
	You just tell people and then you just take their stuff.
	But apparently, because he took the candy, taking stuff is really bad, but you can take his stuff no problem, right?
	Okay, so I need to emphasize that conversation and get a...
	Well, no, you need to, if you want to, because the word borrow, you understand the word borrow automatically implies permission, right?
	Otherwise, it's theft, right?
	So if I ask you, can I borrow $20 and you say yes, then I can borrow the $20 and then I have to give it back.
	If I just take $20 from you without asking you or telling you I'm, quote, borrowing $20 and then just taking it from you, that's stealing, isn't it?
	I mean, you wouldn't like it if he took your stuff when you told him not to, right?
	Don't go through mommy's purse and you found him go through mommy's purse, you'd be upset, right?
	Yeah. So it's not his if you can just take it at will.
	But you're telling him it's his and you're telling him you're just borrowing it, but you're taking it against his wishes, right?
	I know this sounds unimportant, but property is everything to kids.
	Property is an extension of the body.
	If they don't respect property, they won't respect the body because the body is just another form of property.
	So if you intrude upon his property, he won't have boundaries or he won't respect boundaries.
	And do you remember I said that he's maneuvering through the environment because he can't get what he wants through his words.
	And so you've told him, he's told you, I don't want you using the stool, but you don't listen to him and you use it anyway.
	So then he has to move the stool because he can't get what he wants through his words
	So Let me just ask to be clear because there have been other
	instances where he puts the stool in front of the toilet for me
	anticipating that I will need it So, it's not...
	No, no, but he does that.
	Hang on. He chooses that.
	And I assume that he does that so that you'll be finished quicker and can get back to playing with him faster.
	Oh, I'm sure. Right.
	So he can choose for you to use the stool, but you can't choose if you can use his stool.
	Right? You can lend someone your car, but they can't just take it, right?
	Right. No, that's perfectly reasonable.
	So are you suggesting that each instance I ask if I can use his stool?
	No! I mean, I know you guys aren't wealthy.
	I understand that. I sympathize with that.
	But, I mean, how much is a stool?
	How much does it cost to get a stool?
	Oh, it won't cost very much.
	It's certainly something we could afford.
	Right. So you can afford a stool, right?
	And if you can't afford a stool, you can call up your friends and say, does anyone have a stool they're not using?
	You don't just go to their houses and take it.
	You ask if you can borrow the stool.
	You get it, right? Right.
	So you just, you go get, this is your stool.
	I'm not, like, this is your stool and I've got my own stool because this is your stool.
	I don't use it without your permission because I want to teach you boundaries.
	I want to teach you respect for other people's property and personhood.
	Okay. That was definitely an oversight.
	Well, no, but this is just a thing like, how would you feel, right?
	Like, how would you feel if some adult just used your stuff without your permission?
	After you've told them that, at least sometimes, you don't want them to do that.
	Right. I mean, you ever had a neighbor who uses your garbage bin?
	Like, they just put their garbage in your bin?
	Well, that's not very nice. And you tell them, please don't put your garbage in my bin, and then the next time you see...
	They put their garbage in your bin or whatever.
	That's just not good, right?
	Yeah, I can't imagine anybody doing that, but I'm sure the story comes from somewhere.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we have this thing like, you know, in offices, the fridge, right?
	And people bring their lunches.
	And you're not supposed to eat other people's lunches, right?
	Yeah. Some people just don't respect those boundaries.
	Yeah, because it's their stuff.
	I don't want to teach my son to be one of them.
	Right. Okay, so, and I'm sorry to interrupt, I just really want to mention that.
	So you said, were you annoyed that he moved into the hallway?
	Yes, I was feeling frustrated because at the time I ascribed this intention called being mean to him.
	But now that we've had that changing conversation about the stool is his, I'm starting to reframe my view.
	I mean, haven't you ever had something, like maybe when you were a kid, that someone keeps taking your stuff so you hide it?
	Yeah. Of course, right?
	Of course. So, yeah, so here's the thing.
	You're jumping to conclusions, right?
	Which is, I think, unfair.
	So you're saying, well, why did he move the stool?
	Well, because he doesn't want me spending time with the baby, and he's mad, and he's mean, and he's this, and he's that, right?
	Right. But that's all made-up nonsense, and dangerous nonsense, too, because it's insulting.
	Well, yeah, and it's fueling this divide that I'm creating between us.
	Right. Right.
	Right. So your mother enabling a pedophile and enabling violent, life-threatening physical abuse against you, that can be forgiven.
	Because she's better, right?
	She's nicer now. But heaven forbid your son move his stool after you keep taking it from him, after telling him it's his.
	Again, I'm just looking at the moral consistency here and I'm just really having trouble understanding
	it, right?
	There's no sense to it and I wish that I aspire to someday… No, there's perfect sense to it.
	…the clarity that you have in these moments because I just…
	No, no, but there is perfect sense to it.
	Sorry to interrupt. I mean, when I say it's incomprehensible, I just mean like it's incomprehensible.
	It's not easy to see after you listen to the show for a bunch.
	But there is. There's perfect sense to it.
	Okay, so what happens if you stand in front of your mother and you say, you were a terrible mother when I was younger, you were horribly mean, and you enabled abuse against me?
	What happens? I'm so sorry.
	I gotta ask you to repeat yourself.
	No, that's fine. So, your mom comes over today, and you sit her down and you say, Mom, let me tell you all the bad things that happened in my childhood.
	You married this guy, you kept him around, you enabled all of this, I told you at the time, you knew at the time, and you still kept pushing me and my siblings into the arms of this child abuser and molester, right?
	What happens if you call your mom bad?
	Yeah, I've had that conversation with her.
	She says that she did the best she could.
	And then how do you feel after those conversations?
	Angry. It's a negative experience for you to have those conversations, right?
	Yes. Frustrated, helpless, angry, right?
	So here's another example where your words aren't able to get people to do the right thing.
	So we talked about it with your ex-husband.
	We talked about it with the father of your son.
	And now we're talking about it with your mother.
	Well, your words have no impact.
	Your words have no effect. You can't talk people into doing the right things.
	And then this translates to your son jumping around and landing on the baby by accident and so on.
	But I told him, right? So you've got this frustration about people who won't listen when you ask them to do the right thing or ask them to be more responsible or ask them to be nicer.
	They don't listen to you, right?
	Now, what did you say to your son about the stool in the hallway?
	When he did it, I told him I didn't like that he did that.
	It's easier for me to just say it as if I was talking to him.
	Sure. I don't like that you did that just now.
	That was really mean.
	You know that I need that to take the potty.
	And he said, but it's my stool or something to that extent, or I want it here.
	I said, OK, well, then I'm going to take the potty and now I'm using the baby's name, I'm sorry.
	I'm going to take your brother potty and then when I'm done, do you think that I'm going to feel like playing with you?
	If you're being mean to me.
	And I've had this conversation with him before, and I'll take a couple of minutes before I say, okay, I'm going to need to play with you now.
	Okay, so you say that he's being mean to you.
	Right, and that was a question that I was going to have, is when I say that, when I say, okay, well, if you're doing this, then I don't want to play with you.
	Am I being a bully?
	Because I really feel like I'm being a bully.
	The bully is using the word mean.
	Because mean is a moral judgment.
	That he's malevolent, that he's being nasty, that he's being mean, right?
	And, as it turns out, you were completely wrong about that.
	It's you who's being mean by taking his property, the property you gave to him and assigned to him and told was his, you're being mean by taking his property without his consent.
	But you call him mean.
	So not only did you call him mean, which is a moral judgment, to a two-year-old, a two-year-old, not only do you call him mean, but you call him mean unjustly because it's projection because you're the one who's being mean by taking his property without his consent after you told him it was his and his alone.
	Because did you ask him, say, well, tell me why, just out of curiosity, why did you move the stool?
	No, I didn't. You jumped to a conclusion that he was mean.
	And you called him mean, which defines him in his own mind as mean.
	I'm a mean kid. I have a mean streak.
	I do things that mommy calls mean.
	I'm a bad kid. I thought I was being so careful not to do this.
	But you called him mean.
	When you were the one being mean and he was perfectly innocent.
	He was just trying to protect his property from being used against his will, which is a good thing to do, right?
	And in fact, he was trying to hold you to your word.
	Mommy, you said this was mine.
	You keep using it when I don't want you to use it.
	I'm going to move it so that you don't break your word to me.
	I'm going to move it out of temptation's way so you don't keep breaking your word to me.
	I'm sorry?
	I'm just... You're blowing my mind right now because...
	I did not even see it at all from this perspective, and I really appreciate you bringing this to my attention.
	Well, and this poor boy, right, went through all the chaos and stress of the affair of being back with this violent guy, of watching his mother, whatever we know, or whatever might
	have happened at that point probably wasn't all very good, as you say, be brutally
	raped right in front of him.
	And then he has to adapt to one living circumstance with your grandparents and then he has to
	move out of that circumstance and then he's got to adjust to a new father he has no history
	with and then he's got to adjust to a half sibling, or two half siblings in fact, right?
	Thirteen year old and the new baby, right?
	So poor little guy has gone through a lot of chaos.
	Is any of that his fault?
	Whose fault is it?
	Bye.
	Mine. Yeah, 100%.
	I mean, you were 29 and you went back to a violent guy when everyone was telling you not to.
	And you ended up, I assume, there was some degree of trauma, not just for you, obviously there was for you, brutal trauma.
	But for your son as well.
	Now, were you mean by harming him in that way?
	Were you selfish? Were you greedy?
	Did you want resources? Were you panicking?
	Did you give in to anxiety?
	Did you give in to fear? Did you put your son at considerable risk of moving back in with a violent guy?
	Every one of those things, it was all of it.
	Were you mean? I think I have to say that I am.
	I was. Well, if we're going to use that term, right, if we're going to use that term called mean, being mean, obviously a 29-year-old is infinitely more responsible than a two-year-old, right?
	Yes. Especially when you have had the history of violence, And again, all sympathy for your childhood, but you were 11 years past your childhood at this point.
	So if we're going to say that the term mean is, I mean, what would be your definition of the term mean?
	Is it being selfish and acting to your own advantage at the expense of someone else?
	Yes. Okay, were you acting to your own advantage by moving back in with your ex-husband?
	Were you acting to your own material or immediate advantage, obviously not your emotional, moral, and safety advantage, but were you acting to your own advantage at the expense of your son?
	Yes, absolutely.
	At the time, I thought I was doing it for his benefit, but I can't look back and see it that way.
	Well, I don't know your state of mind at the time and we do have a way of sort of painting things backwards.
	And listen, I'm not telling you, you know, go yell at yourself in the mirror over what you did when you were 29.
	But how dare you call a two-year-old mean when you willingly brought him into a household where he saw the most appalling violence you could imagine because you were too nervous to live alone.
	When everybody was telling you this is the worst thing over and people even like you shredded friendships, people were so desperate to stop you from exposing your child to this kind of harm and yourself of course.
	How dare you call a two-year-old mean for moving a stool?
	Have some humility.
	You were making infinitely worse decisions when you were 27 years older than he was.
	At his expense. Have some humility.
	And listen, I'm not saying be down on yourself.
	What I'm saying is we've all made mistakes.
	We've all made mistakes.
	And when we get up on our high horse and start lecturing our children, our two-year-olds, and calling them mean, when our bad decisions have put them through unimaginable chaos for a little guy, And then he has to feel this kind of rejection from his own mother because she's calling him mean when he's two and trying to hold on to his property as the boat anchor, as the security. I mean, you were mean to him in a way because your ex-husband had resources, money, a home, shelter.
	Right? As did your grandparents, the people who were unwell, and the mother, you would get in the yelling matches, your mother and your grandparents.
	So you were mean because you wanted stuff.
	You failed to protect your son in the way that you should have, and yourself, which again, you were a victim in these attacks for sure.
	But you failed to protect your son because you wanted property, you wanted money, you wanted shelter, you wanted resources.
	So you sacrificed his interest for stuff because you wanted property.
	Now he's trying to protect his property and you're calling him mean.
	He's not mean at all.
	He's not mean. He's two.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Have the humility.
	Look, please understand, I've made mistakes in my life too, for sure.
	And once we understand and process those terrible mistakes that we've all made in our lives, the urge to lecture our children for their meanness and immorality completely evaporates.
	It completely evaporates.
	I'm going to say that one more time just so that I can get it to sink in because you're
	skimming the surface and I want it to go a little bit deeper.
	Yeah. So, you've made some bad mistakes as an adult.
	I'm glad that you're making better mistakes.
	I'm thrilled that you're dedicated to peaceful parenting.
	I'm thrilled that you've got a good marriage out of the wreckage of your youth.
	I think that's wonderful. Great.
	Good for you. You should receive all praise from all the angels in the universe.
	But you have made terrible mistakes as an adult and not as like a 20-year-old or a 25-year-old, but pushing 30, right?
	You made some terrible mistakes that really endangered yourself and your son.
	Now, of course, you had no right to make those mistakes, right?
	When you have a kid, you don't have the right to put yourself in needless danger.
	You don't have the right to put your kid in needless danger, and you did both.
	So I'm not saying, oh, think terribly of yourself for making those mistakes.
	What I'm saying is, be humble.
	You were making terrible mistakes involving things slightly more important than a stool.
	You were making terrible mistakes at the expense of your child when you were pushing 30.
	Mm-hmm. So, when you have that humility, when you say, gosh, I've made some terrible mistakes in my life, and you had a harsh upbringing, I'm not trying to erase that, but your child only knows your mistakes, he doesn't know your childhood, right?
	So, when you've made terrible mistakes in your life, and you accept that, then...
	The urge to lecture your son for his bad moral choices when he's two will completely evaporate.
	Hey kid, I was making completely disastrous decisions when I was almost 30.
	So if you move a stool when you're two, Who am I to say?
	Who am I to lecture you on being mean and greedy and not sharing?
	You know, like, I dragged you into the house of a guy who abused and raped me when you were a baby!
	And I was almost 30!
	Humility is not lecturing kids for inconsequential things, but rather being curious.
	Why did you move the stool?
	Because it's mine, he would say, right?
	Something like that. I don't want you to have it.
	It's my stool. I don't want you to have it.
	Well, why don't you want me to have it?
	Because you said it was mine.
	Well, I'm just going to borrow it.
	But you don't ask. Well, sometimes you offer it to me.
	That's my choice. You don't make that choice for me.
	You don't tell me when I can lend it to you.
	That's my choice. Again, I know that's a bit more than a two-year-old or close to three, but it would be along those lines.
	I'm sure he could articulate something like that because he feels it.
	Right? I'm mad at you.
	I'm mad at you taking my stool.
	Right? And then you say, well, if I have a treasured possession in the world and other people are taking it against my wishes, how do I feel?
	I mean, that's just... I mean, I won't say Empathy 101, but how would I feel?
	And... You'd be upset.
	I mean, you're upset when he takes the candy from the freezer, right?
	Well, see, I started that conversation off wrong.
	I didn't feel upset.
	I felt helpless. Yeah.
	Sorry, no, you're right. You did mention that.
	But helplessness is a negative feeling, right?
	Yes, absolutely. Right.
	Because I didn't want to force the candy out of his hand, and I tried to reason with him.
	No, no, but you...
	See, here's the thing.
	Stop using your words, because your words aren't working.
	Now, why aren't your words working, right?
	Why aren't your words working?
	Because they don't match your deeds.
	Because if you're saying...
	Don't take what isn't yours, but you take his stool, he won't believe you.
	The reason that your words are worthless, in a sense, or they don't have an effect, the reason your words fail is because your deeds contradict them.
	The way you actually interact with him, the way...
	Like, if you don't respect his property, why should he respect yours?
	So rather than lecturing him, look in the mirror and say, what am I doing to bring this response about?
	Now, you don't do that in adult-to-adult relationships, but you're the mother.
	He's completely under your care, custody, and control.
	So you have to be critical with yourself, right?
	So if you say, well, my kid's not respecting my property, right?
	Is there even one instance where I'm not respecting his property?
	Even one! That's humility.
	Who taught him to not respect property?
	He didn't learn that on his own.
	It's not innate, right?
	It's not like learning how to walk.
	Although learning how to walk probably comes from watching your parents walk around all the time.
	Who taught him to not respect property?
	And you have to be scoldingly clear with yourself and self-critical.
	Who taught him to not respect property?
	Is there any... Okay, so what's his property?
	Okay, what's his property? The stool is his property.
	Do I ever take it without his permission?
	Boom! Done! And then you sit down and you say, listen, I'm really sorry.
	I told you the stool was your property.
	And I keep taking it without asking you.
	That's rude. That's disrespectful.
	Mommies being what?
	Kind of mean. And kind of hypocritical.
	And look, we all do it.
	We all do it as parents.
	From time to time.
	It happens. We're trying to carve peaceful parenting out of a bloody chaotic mess.
	So we all do it.
	But that's the self-criticism. My child is doing something I don't like.
	Who taught him that? So, there's only two choices, right?
	When children do something we don't like.
	Either it's innate, or we taught them.
	It's either nature or nurture, right?
	It's either an 8 or we taught them.
	And I'm trying to think, just to really emphasize the difference, what kind of things would be innate?
	I mean, I guess a baby is hungry or...
	Well, okay, so is it innate for children to disagree with their parents at times?
	For sure. For sure, yeah.
	So that's innate, right? So we can't punish children for disagreeing with us because that's innate.
	We can't punish children for being hungry.
	We can't punish babies for being a poop in themselves.
	We can't punish children for getting taller.
	We can't punish children for not having deep moral empathy because it's innate that they don't have these things.
	So if it's innate, we can't punish them because we're punishing them not for what they did but for who they are.
	It's like punishing your baby boy for having a pee-pee, right?
	I mean, it's just innate, right? So we can't punish children for anything that's innate.
	Now, is it natural for children to not want to share when they're very young?
	Yes, it is perfectly natural and it's inevitable and that's innate.
	And we know that from evolution, right?
	Because the children who share too much were exploited by the children who didn't share as much and tended to die off.
	So children, when they're very little, they don't want to share.
	A bunch of kids come over with a two-year-old.
	Does he want to share his toys? No, of course not.
	You know, when daddy comes swooping in on the kid's ice cream, does he want to share or does he put his hand over it?
	No, Danny, don't take my ice cream.
	That's innate, right? You can't punish children for that.
	I mean, not justly, right?
	Now, if it's not innate, it means it's come from the environment, right?
	And who's in charge of his environment?
	Me. You! So you can't punish the child if it's innate, and you can't punish the child if it's learned, because you teach him.
	So don't punish the child.
	Well, there you go, right?
	There you go. We accept what's innate and celebrate it.
	And if there's something that's not innate, you know, I mean, if you can imagine some crazy, cruel parent teaches a kid that the name for every common household object is some brain-curdling swear word.
	You know, instead of an orange, it's an MF or something like that.
	I mean, okay, so then do we blame the toddler for swearing if that's what his parent told him?
	We don't. Because that's what she's been taught.
	Now, can you imagine teaching your child a whole bunch of swear words and then punishing your child for swearing?
	Oh, that would be terribly sadistic.
	Right. Evil.
	So can you imagine violating your child's property rights and then calling him mean for exercising his property rights while telling him that you should respect people's property?
	Because you're upset with him because he exercised his property rights.
	It's his stool. He can move it wherever he wants.
	That's fine, right? It's his stool.
	He can move it into the hallway. That's perfectly fine because it's his stool.
	But no. You tell him it's his stool.
	You keep taking it without permission and then you tell him he has property rights.
	You violate those property rights and then you call him mean for exercising his property rights.
	In other words, you're calling him mean for listening to you because you told him it's his stool.
	And then he acts, okay, it's my stool.
	It's my stool. Mommy told me it was my stool.
	Mommy told me it was my stool.
	She tells me to respect property because I'm not supposed to take the candy or whatever, right?
	So mommy told me it's my stool.
	Now mommy is calling me mean because I listen to mommy.
	So what am I supposed to do?
	Do I listen to mommy or not listen to mommy?
	If mommy tells me it's mine and I treat it like it's mine, but then I'm mean for treating it like it's mine when mommy doesn't even treat it like it's mine even though she says it's mine and says it's good to respect property, you're tying this kid up in knots.
	And it's confusing and frustrating, and of course he's going to start acting on that frustration.
	Well, you're losing credibility.
	And this is why I'm very strong on this.
	Look, I desperately want you to have maximum credibility with your kids.
	Maximum credibility with your kids.
	And the way that you have maximum credibility with your kids is...
	You act on the morals you teach them.
	You don't teach them that property is important, that they shouldn't take other people's stuff, and then take their stuff without permission, and then call them mean when they object.
	Because, man, I'm telling you, he'll be a teenager before you know it, and you've already got another teenager in the house.
	Now what happens when your son grows up With no respect for mommy's rules, because she just makes them and breaks them and calls people mean and hypocritical, and then you say, well, here's what you should do, kid, in life.
	Is he going to believe you? He's not going to listen.
	He's not going to listen. He's going to roll his eyes.
	And then where's he going to go for moral instruction?
	His peers. That's right.
	That's right. Now, his healthy peers won't want to give him moral instruction because they know that telling people what to do, especially horizontally, like in the age, so he'll go and he'll end up being instructed by who?
	The better peers or the worse peers?
	The worse ones, of course.
	Of course, of course.
	And it all starts this early.
	Thank you.
	I've heard you say that before.
	Yeah, if you tell him it's his, it's his.
	100%. And if he doesn't want to share it, you buy another one.
	Look, if you and your neighbor both share the car, let's say he lets you, you know, I'm gone during the day, you can use it, whatever, right?
	And then if he says, actually, you know, I'm sorry, I'm going to need it during the day, do you just keep taking it?
	No. So you treat your children with at least as much moral respect that you would treat a stranger or a neighbor or anyone.
	Why should he not have at least as much respect as you'd give to a stranger?
	He should have the most moral respect.
	You should have your highest moral standards with him.
	Not the least because he's with you for life.
	Not only that, but I want...
	Yes, I'm listening to you.
	I'm starting to get a little distracted.
	My toddler came home. No, no, that's totally fine.
	We can wind it up here, because I sort of made the major point that I want to, and I'm sure there's tons of stuff you can think about.
	But the reason that you're having trouble with him is because he's reflecting back to you some of the hypocrisy that you have, which, again, we all have, and I'm not throwing you under the bus.
	We're all struggling with this stuff.
	But he's reflecting accurately back to you, as children do, The moral hypocrisy that you're engendering by saying he's mean for listening to you.
	He's mean for treating his property as his property when you told him it was his property.
	And I really needed to hear somebody point that out to me, because obviously I wouldn't have called if I saw it.
	And this may be the price of having your mom around that this obvious because it's obvious when I say it, right?
	Well, sure. Yeah, somebody's I know we're gonna stop so but yes, somebody's calling somebody is causing you dissociation
	in This issues and I imagine it's your mother and this may be
	the price of having the unapologetic child abuser called your mother in
	Your environment in that you dissociate from these I mean basic and obvious things, right? I mean that again, this is
	not This is not hard to understand intellectually
	Actually.
	But it's been completely invisible to you emotionally, and I would imagine that may be the price of having your mom around.
	I don't know for sure, but maybe it's worth taking another run at that conversation.
	All right. I know you've got to go.
	I know you're distracted, but how was our convo for you?
	I think that you gave me a lot to chew on here, especially emphasizing that my words are not as useful with my toddler as I want them to be.
	Just being aware of How to do that.
	And I really wish that we could have gotten into a little more depth with, okay, well, we're finding, navigating that boundary between, okay, well, I'm lifting him up and removing him from the situation to keep my baby safe, but where is that less peaceful and more forceful Well, no. You would work to physically shield your baby.
	So if the kid's jumping up and down on the bed, you cover the baby with your body, and that way you're not interfering with your son, right?
	I mean, if for some reason you can't do that, you can absolutely pick him up and remove him from the situation if he's doing something dangerous, right?
	If he's poking your baby with a fork, you can pick him up and take the fork away.
	Of course you can. Yeah, yeah, for sure, because you're acting on self-defense on the part of the baby, so you can't defend himself.
	That to me is obvious, but then there's other times where I just It's more aesthetically preferable.
	I don't want him to do this, but he's not directly harming anybody.
	So then what you need to do is say, is it innate?
	In which case there's no point trying to talk him out of it.
	It's wrong to do so. Or did he learn this from somewhere?
	Did he learn a lack of boundaries?
	Did he learn a lack of respect for other people's persons or property and look in the mirror?
	And you have to look in the mirror.
	You have to look at your mom's behavior.
	You have to look at your husband's behavior.
	You have to look at the elder sibling's behavior.
	And you have to say, where is this coming from?
	And be openly curious about that.
	I can't guarantee, of course, every single time I've done that, the answer is pretty obvious.
	I know where it's coming from.
	If I'm not respecting his boundaries, I'm doing something to teach my child this, and I need to change my behavior.
	Like, my child's behavior is a shadow cast by my behavior, and there's no point trying to push a shadow without...
	Pushing the thing that's cast into the shadow without changing that.
	It's like looking at my shadow and saying, my shadow is fat.
	I mean, I'm slender, but my shadow is fat.
	If your shadow is fat, you've got to lose weight.
	So look in the mirror first and have the humility of saying, my child is acting as I've taught him to act.
	And in order to get my child to change, calling him mean is like calling my shadow fat if I'm overweight.
	I have to change my behavior and apologize for leading him down the wrong path.
	And then his behavior will change.
	But just lecturing him ain't going to do it because words don't work.
	Children are empiricists. They don't care what you say.
	They only care what you do. And if what you say doesn't match what you do or is the opposite, you just have no credibility and then your words are useless, if that makes sense.
	Mm-hmm. Will you keep me posted?
	Yeah. If something else comes up, feel free to drop by and we can chat about it more.
	And do thank your kids for giving us the opportunity to...
	To chat today because, you know, I know that's not always easy.
	Here I am taking mommy away again, but do thank them for me that it's very helpful.
	Dad helped a lot, so thank him too.
	Give him my best as well. And again, massive sympathies for your childhood, like nothing but sorrow and sadness and sympathy for that.
	But you're doing great stuff with your life, and I really, really admire that.
	Thank you. All right, take care.

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