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July 30, 2023 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:16:10

5232 "My Wife Just Left and Took My Son!" Freedomain Call In

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	Hello?
	Hey, how's it going?
	Good, Stefan.
	How are you?
	I'm good, good.
	Sorry for being a little late.
	Had a tech issue or two, but I am ready to roll.
	I'm ready to roll.
	What's on your mind?
	Okay.
	Well, thank you for taking my call.
	I appreciate it.
	I have actually two issues.
	I sent you a message that I have at the same time.
	I've got issues at home and at work.
	Alright, I'm sorry to hear about both of these things.
	I'm sure we can do some
	Useful stuff.
	So do you think that there's a common issue between the two situations or do you want to start with childhood?
	What's your preference?
	The common thing between these two things is me.
	So I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with me, I guess.
	I'm sorry, just out of curiosity, your audio is a little hard to hear.
	Are you trying to use a headset, or what are you using for your microphone?
	Yes, I'm using earbuds.
	Let me just get these off.
	Okay, is it better now?
	Oh yeah, much better, thank you.
	So where was I?
	I'm the common denominator between these two things, so it may be me.
	No, no, no, I get that.
	I'm just thinking, what are the issues, do you think?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I think I see myself getting into these impossible situations.
	You know, I'm trying to find out why and how do I not get into those.
	Okay.
	What's an impossible situation in your marriage?
	Right.
	Well, me and my wife are not being able to resolve our issues.
	I think our issues kind of keep getting reburied.
	And then they resurface again and again, but we are unable to kind of resolve them.
	Does that make sense?
	Right.
	Sorry, are you still there?
	Yes, yes.
	Yes, OK.
	So why don't we start with what your childhood was like?
	Sure.
	So I would say my childhood was good.
	Even though maybe on the on paper wouldn't sound like it because I was born in Yugoslavia, you know, right before the war and then in Bosnia, right?
	So my parents were Serbs.
	So we had to move to Serbia.
	And then later on, 10 years later, there was bombing.
	So on paper, you would say, oh, my God, this is horrible.
	And there was inflation and all these uncertainties.
	I do remember having a good childhood because my parents managed to protect me and my sister from this harm.
	We were not suffering that much.
	We were never hungry.
	There was no fighting in our family.
	I did that ACE score that you ask people to do and it is zero.
	With an asterisk, because my father actually hit me twice.
	So it's like 0.5, I guess.
	It's not completely zero, but you get the point.
	So, you know, we were OK.
	Money was not great anywhere in the country, but we were fine.
	We did go to the seaside.
	We had our needs met.
	In 1995, you know, when everybody's
	I don't know.
	The kids were trying to get a Sega or whatever.
	I got my first computer so my parents went above and beyond to make sure that my sister and I don't suffer.
	Is there anything in detail that you want me to talk about regarding my childhood?
	Yes, as a whole.
	So when your parents want you to do something different or disagreed with you about something or you disagreed with them and it was important, what would they do?
	How would they reason with you?
	You said you were only hit twice, which is good.
	I mean, that's as far as averages go.
	That's good.
	And how were you punished?
	Well, there was not too much punishment.
	I managed.
	I actually had a pretty good relationship with both of them.
	My mom was a very kind of mellow person.
	She would not be very confrontational.
	So when there was an issue, like I would have to kind of ask my dad to to make a call on it.
	And fortunately, my dad was a reasonable person.
	You know, he had he was OK, so he was a military officer.
	Right.
	So he's
	Approach was firm, but he was fair so if he said no My request it would definitely be no unless but I say I make a good case for it or confrontation wise I'm trying to think but we didn't really have that many Fights Not really and how did you get along with your sister?
	My sister is almost six years older than me.
	We like each other.
	I love my sister and everything, but we were not of the same generation.
	So we were not that close growing up.
	That's a big gap for kids, but sorry, go on.
	Right, right.
	So I could not participate in the things that she wanted to do or the other way around.
	You know, we always had a, you know, decent relationship.
	Not too deep, not too close, but friendly, you know.
	It's interesting that your father, I mean, he fled war as a military man.
	I'm trying to sort of figure out, normally they're kind of kept close during times of war.
	No, he did not flee.
	He was, he was, you know, in the war.
	Um, but he managed to get us, you know, um, me, my mom, my sister, and my mom's parents outside, uh, Bosnia.
	Oh, okay.
	So your father and how long was he in the war for?
	I want to say for two years, three years.
	For me, I was very young back then.
	You know, I don't, I don't have memories of that place or, or the war.
	But I do remember stories later on, you know, when everybody was kind of wondering, there were many people that actually fled completely, not just to Serbia, but they went abroad, far away, States, you know, and the Navy, Australia.
	And my parents had that opportunity as well, but they decided against it.
	So, yeah, my dad did stay in the war.
	And he was actually pretty, a very high rank officer in the army.
	So he wasn't like a direct, he wasn't like an infantryman or he wasn't a direct combat guy.
	He was more, uh, planning and, and executing.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And did, of course, you don't remember him from before the war because you were so young, but, and you have good memories of him afterwards that he was a reasonable guy.
	And if, as you say, if you could make a good case, then he would usually listen.
	Is that right?
	Yes, yes.
	I'm very grateful for him because he himself didn't really have a good childhood.
	He got abandoned by his father.
	So him being the way he is was really kind of a lot of work and I would say a miracle.
	Right.
	OK.
	And so what were your teenage years like?
	My teenage years?
	So let me think about this.
	So I did go to the same high school my sister went to because she had a good experience over there and it was kind of a unique school in Serbia.
	It's like a graphic arts school.
	So it was very, I would say, not liberal, but it was not as strict as others.
	So I did have my opportunity to be myself, explore, be creative.
	That was very good.
	And I like that because other options kind of didn't appeal to me.
	And fortunately, my parents didn't push me to any particular option.
	You know, they gave me and my sister freedom to choose the path that we wanted for us.
	So I did choose that.
	You know, the school was OK.
	Friends were OK.
	I don't really have that many, how would I say, highlight stories from that period.
	At the end of the teenage years, let's say around 17 or 18, I got this travel bug.
	I got interested in traveling, so I occupied myself with that.
	I did travel a bit in Europe and came to the States and whatnot.
	So yeah, I got into university.
	That continued and yeah.
	And what about friendships and
	Dating over the course of your teenage years?
	I did not date in my teenage years.
	I think my first girlfriend was around when I was 18.
	Yeah.
	Friendships were, you know, I had long time friends from school and from my neighborhood.
	All of us were pretty, I think the expression is latchkey kids, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And you have the freedom to kind of roam around and explore and make friends.
	So I had pretty diverse friends because I had different interests.
	You know, I had my photography friends, traveling friends.
	I had computer, you know, people that are interested in computers.
	And so
	But the funny thing is that I was the only kind of link between these people.
	These people would not hang with each other.
	Or even if they met, let's say for my birthday, they would kind of stick together with their crowd.
	So I could definitely kind of blend with different people easily.
	All right.
	And how did your first dating relationship go?
	Well, this was when I was traveling.
	I met this girl in the same kind of camp that we were staying with at, and we clicked right away.
	Mostly I would say that she was more interested in me.
	I did like her, but I was not looking for a relationship actually.
	I was kind of busy, you know, I was in my own mind exploring.
	I was interested, you know, in girls, but she was kind of more outgoing than I was.
	So we dated there for like several weeks and then we tried kind of to have a relationship once we got back to our home countries, but of course that didn't work.
	So yeah, that ended pretty soon after.
	Later on, again, this is interesting, again, when I was traveling, I'm just talking about kind of more significant relationships, not the things or whatever.
	So I was in a relationship with a girl for four months here in the States and then we again went back to our home countries and then came back again to States for another four months.
	It was kind of a work program.
	So we knew that we were going to come again to the same place.
	So I would say that was my first big relationship.
	That one
	And how many girls did you date before you met your wife?
	Can you define dating?
	Where is the cutoff?
	Well, let's say, how many girls did you sleep with before you met your wife?
	I'd say about 13, 15, something like that.
	And were most of those, I assume most of those were fairly short-term relationships?
	Most of them, yes.
	This relationship that I just spoke about was a total of like eight months.
	And then I was in a relationship with a girl in my home country for about three years.
	That was the longest relationship before my wife, yeah.
	And what happened to the three-year relationship?
	Well, that ended, actually, when I got here to the US for the last time in 2015.
	Still moving around, so it all becomes long-distance, right?
	Right, right.
	We had different plans.
	We were, you know, thinking about living somewhere else, but things happened.
	All right.
	And then where did you meet your wife?
	Here, here in the US.
	So I got here in, let's say, June.
	And then I realized that she also got here a couple of months earlier than me.
	But we met in August, let's say.
	So we were supposed to attend the same meeting, and that meeting never happened.
	Nobody showed up to that meeting.
	I was at the location, nobody was there, so I left.
	But then I got the message from her asking me about the same thing.
	How come this didn't happen?
	Blah blah.
	So we started chatting and everything was OK.
	And I think back then I made an inappropriate joke.
	It was a joke that did not land well.
	So we kind of stopped talking maybe for a month.
	And then randomly, a month later, I got a message that she's asking me if I wanted to go to this event.
	That happens once a month or so.
	So I didn't have anything planned for that day.
	So I said, OK, why not?
	So we then we met in person and we clicked and it went from there.
	Actually, it went pretty fast because so we met in person.
	We met in August.
	And then she moved into my place in November, like for Halloween.
	Wow.
	And then we got married in January.
	Yeah.
	And it was pretty fast.
	Why do you think?
	I mean, you said you made an inappropriate joke.
	Was it a joke that she also found inappropriate or just, you know, like not politically correct kind of joke?
	No, it's funny because I don't remember of that joke and neither does she.
	But I think I wanted to be funny, but it didn't land at all.
	Like she didn't comment on it.
	I'm not even sure if it was like a joke or whatnot, but we just suddenly stopped communicating for a month.
	And then I already said how it happened.
	Did she say why she got back in contact with you?
	I'm not saying she should or shouldn't have, obviously.
	I'm just curious what she would say.
	Right.
	I mean, I don't remember her explaining that, but I kind of understand because both of us were busy at that time because we were pretty new in the country.
	You know, she was, I guess, you know, with her parents and moving around and had a busy day today.
	And me as well.
	I was working, so I had a pretty busy schedule.
	So I didn't really, I almost didn't pay attention.
	I was like, OK, this girl is not replying back.
	OK, I'm, you know, never mind.
	I have other things to do.
	But you must have left some kind of an impression that she called you back a month later, right?
	So, do you know what the impression was that you made?
	I think our conversations were pretty light-hearted.
	We were joking, we were sharing memes, we were talking about our experiences.
	Because this website was connecting travelers, you know, connecting people who are kind of always traveling.
	So she was in the same, she had the same interests.
	So I guess that was like a common interest for us that kept us connected.
	All right.
	So what was she attracted to you about?
	Um, well, maybe that's a better question for her, but, uh, I, I was, um, I was then very young.
	I was 25.
	I was full of life.
	It was maybe exciting.
	I would probably, that's probably the right expression, exciting.
	Maybe new.
	I was, we talk about, of course, about these light topics, but we would touch up on serious issues.
	And maybe what I was saying at that moment kind of resonated with her.
	And back then I was into your book.
	On Truth, the Tyranny of Illusion.
	And I had that one translated to Serbian, actually.
	So I was telling her about this and she liked it.
	You know, she liked the idea that honesty is the way to go.
	It's, you know, it's the good policy.
	So I think she also needed kind of, not certainty in life, but like she needed more truth.
	If that's the right way to put it.
	And how much did physical attraction play into your relationship?
	With her?
	Let's say with her.
	Right.
	Well, she's attractive for sure.
	That attracted me.
	I'm not going to lie about that.
	But she was other things as well.
	I could tell that she's, you know, smart, intelligent.
	I could say that she's caring.
	You know, she was open to these ideas.
	She was, yeah, she seemed fine to me.
	And physical attraction-wise, she's attractive.
	I believe I'm attractive too, so that's okay.
	Okay.
	And so the reason I'm asking this is that she, when did she move out?
	For Halloween.
	So like a day after or day before Halloween.
	I forgot.
	I'm sorry.
	Sorry.
	When did she, when did she just move out with you?
	No problem.
	She moved out like 10 days ago.
	Okay.
	Right.
	So, um, do you think my wife would ever move out because I'm bald?
	No.
	Right.
	Because she knows that, right?
	I didn't hide it with a toupee or something, right?
	Right, right.
	So she moved out because there's something that she was there for that no longer is true, right?
	Like, I mean, I'll sort of give you an example, right?
	So if someone is attracted to you
	Because you are very handsome, right?
	He's a really, really good looking guy, right?
	So somebody's really attracted to you because you're super good looking.
	Well, what happens is that level of physical attraction tends to fade over time, right?
	Or certainly if she doesn't like you as a person as much as she likes how you look, then what's going to happen is she is going to end up less attracted to you.
	So that's not going to last.
	Does that sort of make sense?
	Yes.
	Right.
	So something must have changed.
	In that she doesn't like something that she used to like, right?
	So that's why I sort of ask about why she was very much keen on you at the beginning, right?
	So keen that she moves in in a couple of months, you get married a couple of months later.
	So that's the question, right?
	And so what was she attracted to?
	Because whatever she was attracted to must have changed, right?
	That's a good question.
	I mean, it's hard for me to tell.
	Maybe I'm blind to it, but maybe this would be a better question for her.
	Because I think when our relationship, you know, in first years, our relationship were good.
	Or maybe our issues were not that prominent yet, or we kind of were not resolving them on the spot.
	But our inability to resolve issues had caused this, I would say.
	Now, I understand your question that there is something that was there in the relationship, but it's not there anymore, so that's why she left.
	I could not tell what that is, unfortunately.
	OK, let me let me ask you this, because this we have information on.
	So what was attractive to you that became less attractive over time?
	What was more attractive to you at the beginning that became less attractive to you over time?
	Well, I liked her spontaneity, like she was very kind of perceptive to not having like a strict plan.
	We could have
	The important thing was just to get together and then we would spend our day, you know, we will find out how to spend it nicely.
	So it did not have to be structured.
	It would not have to be.
	It was fun.
	I would say that.
	So I would say she kind of turned less fun with time, like she demanded more organized time or rules, things like that.
	Now, was that more true after you got married or after you became parents?
	Somewhere in between, after we got married, for sure.
	But somewhere in between, because it did not happen overnight.
	But they were, we are definitely different people in how we plan our time and everything else.
	So she's more, she's definitely more rigid in her time management and yeah.
	I'm okay with kind of adjusting plans if need be or if something pops up.
	I'm not too invested on doing certain things in a certain time or those things exactly or in a way.
	So I would say that's also where the conflict may have come from.
	Yeah, that seems like kind of thin soup in terms of like, well, she used to be more spontaneous, now she's less spontaneous, therefore the marriage is over.
	Like that's not, that doesn't seem like much of a basis.
	It's not like, well, but she became a drug addict, right?
	Or she had an affair with a football team or like, so I'm sort of trying to follow what happened with your relationship, right?
	So, cause look, if you, let's say, this is the general theory of relationships.
	I think it makes sense.
	So if you were genuinely yourself and she is genuinely herself, like no bullshit, no,
	Chameleon, no cover-ups, no pretending to be something you're not.
	If you're genuinely who you are, and then someone falls in love with you, well, you can't stop being who you are.
	I mean, you can't stop being authentic, right?
	I mean, I guess you could, I don't know, you could get a brain tumor or something, but in the normal course of things, you are who you are.
	Like, my wife is a better version even of who I met, and who I met was pretty great, right?
	She hasn't changed fundamentally, I haven't changed fundamentally,
	Cause we just were who we were when we met.
	And so if you meet and there's such a strong attraction that you move in within a couple of months and you then get married a couple of months after that, right?
	Like August to January, right?
	With, with the stopover in Halloween of moving in then, and then she ends up moving out 10 days ago.
	Then someone was faking something at the beginning.
	Someone had, like, I'll give you sort of another example that hopefully will be a bit more vivid.
	So let's say that I go into business with a guy named Bob, and the reason I bring all the skills, but he brings a million dollars of investment money, right?
	He says, I got a million dollars of investment money and all of that, right?
	So we get into business, right?
	Now, if then I stop doing business with Bob,
	It's most likely because it doesn't turn out.
	It turns out he doesn't have the million dollars, like he's just lying about it.
	So then we break up because you both were expecting a benefit from each other that was going to last a lifetime, but that benefit didn't last a lifetime, which means that the benefit you were expecting wasn't real.
	So for instance, uh, if you have a temper, but over the first, you know, six months of the relationship, you,
	Choke back your temper, you pretend to be more easygoing, and then when you move in together or you get married or something like that, because you haven't really dealt with your temper, you've just bitten it back, then your temper's going to start to come out, and then she's like, whoa, this isn't what I signed up for.
	And it could be the other thing, too.
	One of the most common things is physical attractiveness, right?
	You both think each other are very sexy and you have a lot of sex and you bond on that.
	But then what happens is you don't hugely love each other's personalities outside of the physical attraction.
	I'm not saying this is the case with you guys.
	I'm just saying this is a common one.
	But something has to have changed, right?
	Well, she told me that, a couple of days ago, she told me that she doesn't feel safe
	I need to see that message again.
	She told me that she's not safe but protected or she doesn't feel understood.
	She said that she's been on the brink of tears for a while, like every day, and that it's not acceptable for her.
	Um, but I understand this, but I also bring up my issues, you know, because I tell her that I also do, I'm dealing with, uh, with things, but I'm not kind of, um, dumping it all on her.
	My temper is not, uh, explosive, you know, I will be annoyed.
	I told her many times that when she tells me again and again, the same thing, it's kind of really, um, hard to deal with.
	Like it's really annoying and I'm.
	I'm really getting tired of saying the same things.
	I'm tired of using the same sentences to explain.
	So I think that kind of caused us to stop talking.
	Because before she... Okay, sorry, there's way too much information coming past here.
	It's like, I can't drink a river.
	I can drink a bottle, I can't drink a river.
	So, let's just break it down a little.
	And look, I appreciate the information.
	I'm just telling you that I can't do it all at once.
	So, you said there's two things.
	She doesn't feel safe and she doesn't feel understood.
	Is that right?
	Right.
	I can maybe find the message.
	Sure.
	Yeah, take your time.
	Because it was over text.
	Yeah, I cannot relax next to you.
	I don't feel safe next to you.
	I'm tired and disregarded, disrespected.
	I feel that I annoy the shit out of you.
	We're different and I'm not accepted by you.
	There's like a whole wall of this text.
	Okay, so she doesn't feel relaxed, she doesn't feel safe, she doesn't feel secure.
	So why do you think she doesn't feel relaxed around you or she doesn't feel safe around you?
	Oh, that's that's a good question.
	I think lately this was maybe accelerated because I'm I'm dealing with a lot of stress at work, too.
	And I'm really like short.
	OK, so no, no, no.
	I know.
	See, dude, I'm asking you about her, not you.
	Right.
	We'll get to you.
	I promise.
	But I'm asking you about her and you said, well, but I'm dealing with a lot of stress at work and so on.
	So and listen, you can you can understand what
	Someone's criticisms are of you without agreeing with them right, so I'm not asking whether you agree with her.
	I'm just asking Why doesn't she feel safe like she might she might be paranoid of the color blue and You accidentally wore a blue t-shirt, and then she doesn't feel safe Around you because you wore a blue t-shirt now.
	That's not particularly rational, but at least we'd know the cause does that make sense Yes, okay, so why doesn't she feel safe?
	Well, safe would be kind of a broad term.
	I would have to understand what she means by this, but maybe not me not dedicating too much time for our relationship.
	We're just doing... No, no, no.
	Then she would feel distant.
	She would feel like you're emotionally unavailable.
	She would feel lonely.
	She says she doesn't feel secure or safe.
	Right.
	So in what way or what does she...
	Experiencing that is giving her a sense of danger or unease or a lack of trust.
	Maybe when she would, um, like criticize or comment, like I would have this reaction that, uh, that is not, you know, good.
	Um, okay.
	So what is your, what is your reaction that was not good?
	Well, I would be annoyed for sure.
	Because it's the same thing that I've been hearing for many times and it's like when you hear it for a hundred and one first time, it's too much.
	It's like we already dealt with this.
	Like, why are you bringing this up again?
	Well, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	I'm sorry.
	Are you saying that it's already been dealt with and she's bringing it up again?
	Like, if we have already discussed this and found a way to kind of move forward, then if you bring it up again the following day, like, what is happening?
	Like, why are we talking again about this?
	Well, because she wants to talk again about it.
	Right.
	I mean, I sort of hate to say, like, who are you to tell her what she can't talk about?
	But if she says, I don't feel safe because of X, and then the next day she doesn't feel safe, isn't she going to bring it up again?
	I mean, let me give you a silly example, right?
	So let's say you're really hungry, you've been waiting for a half hour for your food in the restaurant, and the waiter comes by, there's no food, and you say, can you go check on her food, right?
	And then the waiter says, yeah, I'll go check on the food.
	And then he says, well, the food is still coming and so on.
	And then 20 minutes later, you still don't have your food and you bring up this with the waiter and the waiter says, why are you bringing this up again?
	We already talked about this.
	Well, what's the problem?
	I understand this.
	The problem is you still don't have your food.
	Right.
	Right.
	What was your reaction?
	That she felt unsafe around.
	You said annoyance but what did that mean?
	I think she would not
	Like she would not feel comfortable to bring a difficult topic with me because it would not result in kind of productive solution.
	Oh my gosh, you're so abstract here.
	It would not result in productive solutions.
	What did you do?
	What did you say that had her feel unsafe?
	Like specifically?
	Well, I can tell you about the last thing that happened that caused all of this.
	I mean, not caused, but it was the last drop, I would say, before we stopped talking.
	You want me to talk about that?
	Sure.
	So we were at her parents' house that weekend.
	Like we always do, every other weekend we go there.
	So everything was fine.
	And then we were...
	We got up and had breakfast and then we went out to walk with our son.
	He was in a stroller.
	So we went to a park and that was fine.
	And then on our way back, there's like two paths to come back to the house.
	And both of these paths cross railroad crossing.
	So the first time we went, we went on the one that she prefers.
	Sorry, but on the second one, it was kind of already getting hot.
	And she told me to to make a decision because we already kind of had a detour with in the neighborhood.
	She told me, OK, make a decision.
	Which one?
	And I chose I chose one, which was actually the shorter one, the one that she didn't like.
	And when she didn't realize, I think that at first, but when she did realize this, the one she made made a scene because
	Why are we here?
	Why are we crossing on this one?
	This is not right.
	And I mean, she already asked me to make a decision.
	I did.
	I chose the shorter one.
	And I think it was fine.
	There is nothing wrong with this crossing.
	It's almost exactly the same as the other one, just doesn't have a traffic light.
	So we're crossing the street and she's, you know,
	Talking about all this and I'm like, OK, just please let's let's talk about this later.
	Just like don't.
	Don't ruin our day now, like everything is fine.
	Why do you have to bring bring this up right now?
	And then she just wouldn't stop.
	She wouldn't stop.
	And then we crossed it.
	And I said, OK, listen, why do you have to do this?
	Why?
	And then I I'm not too proud of myself, but I said, why do you have to be a bitch right now?
	Like our day is going fine.
	Why do you have to spoil it?
	For what?
	For nothing.
	For something so petty.
	And then she stopped talking and she just was walking past her phone.
	And I said, what did I say?
	I said, hey, I apologize there.
	I said, hey, I'm sorry that I said that, but I really, you know, again, I'm repeating myself.
	I made a decision, and I would appreciate it if you don't make an issue out of a small thing.
	And she said, OK, you made a point, it's enough.
	And then I said, oh, why are you telling me this is enough?
	Look, I can decide when it's enough and when it's not.
	And then from that point on, we did not speak much.
	She got home, we got back to her parents' home, and then
	I actually left early.
	I came back to our home and I just needed to kind of cool down because this was like my day was already ruined.
	All of our days is ruined because of this.
	And then it was Sunday.
	So I'm going back again into a stressful situation for the whole week.
	I just needed, you know, a relaxing day.
	Anyways, in the following week,
	I did approach her back.
	I tried to kind of, you know, mitigate the situation.
	And it kind of worked until the next weekend when we went there again.
	And she told me that, you know, I haven't forgiven you about the last Sunday.
	But to me, that was kind of almost like offensive.
	Like, what do you mean?
	Like, forgiven me?
	You caused it.
	Like I snapped.
	True.
	But if you didn't cause it, we wouldn't be here.
	And now I'm supposed to.
	I don't feel that I was at fault in that situation.
	So from that point on, we just truly, you know, stop talking.
	We came back to our home.
	We didn't speak for days.
	And then several days later, she asked me, OK, why don't you why don't you talk to me?
	Why don't you feel like
	You know, looking at me.
	And I told her what I felt like.
	I said that I cannot bring myself to do it because I was really upset and stressed out and hurt.
	I just couldn't do it.
	And I didn't have much to say that I haven't already said.
	And then she said, OK, so she said, I think I should move out for three or four months to my parents.
	And I said, OK, you can, you know, you are free to do whatever you want.
	But if you do that, like you and I, you know, we are done.
	I cannot be living like this.
	So that weekend, her parents came.
	I'm sorry, her parents came and what?
	Her parents came and helped her move a majority of things.
	And yeah, the interesting thing to me is that neither one of them ever like called me or texted me or anything.
	They never said anything.
	Which was really kind of eye-opening to me.
	Wow But yeah, so after she moved out I tried like every other day to go and and see my son and She's she was not there.
	She I Was just usually just Her mom would be him and I would spend some time with him and I would give him back.
	Oh Yeah, that was like the last week.
	How old is your son?
	He is 20 months old.
	Hello?
	Yes, okay, sorry, is there more that you want to add?
	No.
	Okay, so help me understand, so back to the walk near your wife's parents' place.
	So, one of the paths leads to a train track that doesn't have a crossing,
	One of them leads to a train track that does have a crossing, is that right?
	No, both of them have a pedestrian crossing.
	It's just one of them is controlled by a traffic light for other traffic such as cars and whatnot.
	Oh, so nothing to do with trains, is that right?
	It's just one only has a stop sign and one has a traffic light, right?
	Right, but they both go over the railroad, over the rails.
	Okay, okay.
	So, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to sort of fathom this.
	So, but there's no stop sign for a train, right?
	No, the stop sign is for the incoming traffic, such as cars and people.
	Okay.
	The thing is why she doesn't prefer, I mean, why she prefers one over the other is really not her fault.
	It was her mom's.
	I think so.
	You know, this bar is preventing you from going.
	So if the train was coming, you would know, right?
	That's correct.
	So there is literally no difference between these two.
	And this one is more, more close to her house.
	It makes sense to go to that one.
	But, um, I think this is, this is not really maybe the, the true reason.
	This is just like an excuse why, you know, to, to stop talking and to make a scene.
	I don't know.
	Well, I mean, that was the immediate cause, right?
	But what, I mean, you did end up calling her a bitch, right?
	I did, yes.
	And then she said, I'm not done with this topic.
	And you said, I'm the one who decides when we're done with the topic.
	Is that right?
	Not you.
	No, I said it because throughout the day, or I mean always, she is the one who always wants to have things done her way.
	So when she, after this conflict, she told me when to stop speaking.
	For me, that was also very, you know, not good.
	Like, I did not like that.
	So I told her, OK, so now you want to control even
	When I need to stop talking?
	I mean, this is just too much.
	No, no, sorry, earlier, earlier you, I mean, sorry, earlier, unless I misunderstood something, you did say at some point that you decide when a topic is done, not her, right?
	I said I'm going, I will not let you say when I should stop talking, when I'm done talking, okay?
	I'm done when I'm done, okay?
	She expected me to
	Well, but aren't you also telling her when she should be done with the topic?
	By saying, don't bring this up again, we already talked about this.
	I'm sorry, I'm trying to sort of see how this is not the same as what you do.
	Probably missing something.
	It's valid, it's valid.
	So you're both kind of telling each other to shut up, right?
	You're right, yes.
	Okay, all right.
	And you feel that yours is justified and hers is unjustified?
	Like, you telling her to shut up is because she keeps bringing the same topics over and over again, but her telling you to shut up is a violation of your
	A right of free speech and a violation of your conscience and integrity or something like that.
	You spotted that pretty fast.
	Okay.
	I did not see it this way, but that sounds true.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And so then when, after you called her a bitch, you then apologized and
	I mean, it's a pretty fatal error in apologies to insert the word, but I'm sorry, but right.
	And if I understood this correctly, you said, I'm sorry, but you provoked me.
	Yes, because I was, I repeatedly kept asking her, please don't ruin our day right now.
	I'm having this Sunday off.
	I've been working Saturday too, you know, going from there to my work.
	Like I was under so much stress.
	And I'm asking for a day, you know, where I'm not... I'm just enjoying with my family, and she brings something insignificant to a, like, much higher level.
	And I'm asking her to stop, and she just wouldn't.
	And I was like, okay, why do you have to do this?
	Like, why are you like this right now?
	I just did not... No, I get it.
	I get it.
	So, but you called her a bitch, and it was kind of her fault, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, if you apologize for something, then you have to take ownership and be responsible for it, right?
	And if you blame the other person, you're not really sorry.
	You're just saying it's your fault that we had this problem, right?
	I really wish I didn't call her a bitch.
	I just wish that word didn't come out because that is something that is against me in this situation.
	And I think that situation could have been much easier resolved.
	But now it cannot be resolved because I called her a bitch.
	No, that's not true.
	That's not true.
	That's not true.
	You can resolve things even if you say something pretty terrible to someone.
	You can resolve things, but you can't resolve them by blaming them for your bad behavior, right?
	Right.
	So, I mean, you have to take 100% responsibility, in fact 200% responsibility for your own bad behavior, right?
	I mean, I am sorry.
	I am sorry that I called her that I called her bitch.
	But I still think that I'm I'm not wrong in this whole situation.
	And then the in the sense that me choosing this path after she asked me to choose a path that now I should be sorry about that as well.
	I don't think I was wrong there.
	How much?
	How much different was this path in terms of how long it would have taken you to get back to your in-laws place?
	Like 10 minutes?
	An hour?
	What is the difference?
	I would say 10 minutes.
	Like maybe the distance between this one and the other one is like 150 meters.
	So you kind of blew up your marriage over 150 meters difference in a walk and yet you call your wife petty.
	Well...
	I'm trying to sort of follow here.
	It wasn't like you were holding off the Luftwaffe with a single AK gun, right?
	You weren't, like, defending the world from space aliens.
	It was a difference of 150 meters in the walk, right?
	Well, in this case, yes.
	But there are so many situations throughout the day when it's, like, when it's expected from me to always be not petty, always to be the better person.
	And, like,
	I also feel, um, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	Okay.
	You're, you're a very smart guy and you're a very eloquent guy, but you can't pull that one on me.
	I'm not saying you're trying to, but you're trying to pull a little con job here on me.
	I say this with all due respect and affection.
	So hang on.
	So what you're saying is my wife was being petty, right?
	And then I say, well, I mean,
	You basically blew up your marriage over a 150 meter difference in a walk, right?
	And then you say, oh no, but it's all these bigger issues and longer issues.
	It's been going on forever and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
	But that's true for your wife as well, right?
	So you can't say, well, she was just being petty because it was only about 150 meters.
	And then when I point out that you're being equally petty, say, no, no, no, but it's part of a much larger pattern, right?
	Because that's true for her too.
	But Stefan, if the last drop spills, you know, the water from a cup, are you blaming really the last drop or all the drops that came before that?
	That's true for your wife as well!
	Because you said, well, my wife just wouldn't accept my decision on this day.
	And then you portrayed your wife as really petty about all of that, right?
	But then, and then I point out, well, you know, if it's only 150 meter difference, then you're kind of petty too about this.
	And you say, no, no, no, it's a much larger issue.
	But that's been my whole point.
	My whole point is that for your wife, it was a much larger issue.
	Like, it can't be a much larger issue for you, but totally petty and just about the moment for your wife.
	Because it's true for both of you, right?
	I'm still trying to process this, but how come we're just focusing on the final one?
	You know, there are so many situations before this... Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on again.
	Why are we focusing on the final one?
	Because I asked you for some examples and you said, well, I'm going to tell you about the final one.
	So the reason why we're focusing on the final one is because you wanted to focus on the final one and you're in control of the information you provide to me.
	So I say, we can talk about any color you want.
	And you say, well, I want to talk about blue.
	And then 10 minutes later you say, well, why on earth are we talking about blue?
	It's because...
	You chose to talk about Plou.
	You chose to talk about the final one.
	Again, I don't mean this in any negative way.
	I'm just telling you why we're talking about this.
	Well, you know, I just told you about the most recent one, you know, the final one.
	But I could bring up other examples when this similar situation happened, when one of us got disregarded and it did not feel right.
	But also, like,
	If you now ask me to kind of bring more topics, I would have to sit and think, you know, because I really, there is something in me that kind of keeps... Wait, I'm sorry.
	I haven't asked you to bring up more topics.
	What do you mean?
	No, no.
	I said if, if you did.
	I haven't.
	I understand.
	I understand.
	So what you're doing is you're saying, well, I'm, I want to talk about more topics to defend that I wasn't being petty, but here's the problem.
	If you bring up more topics that show you weren't being petty and it wasn't about the hundred and fifty meters on this walk by your in-laws house, if you bring up a hundred more instances that say, but this is part of a larger pattern, right?
	Then it's also part of a larger pattern for your wife.
	In which case you can't say to your wife, you're being petty about nothing and ruining the day.
	Because what you do is you say, when you're telling the story to me, or when you're telling the story to yourself, or the way you're treating your wife, is you're saying, it's one stupid little walk.
	It doesn't matter.
	It's unimportant.
	Don't ruin the day.
	Right?
	But then when I point out, well, if it's stupid, petty and unimportant, just take the other walk.
	You say, no, no, no.
	But for me, it's part of a much larger pattern that is important.
	But you can't say to your wife, this walk is only about today.
	It's unimportant and it doesn't matter.
	But then when I point out you're being petty, say, oh, no, but it's part of a much larger issue that's been going on for a long time.
	Because that's saying that your wife has no larger issues and everything that she complains about is just in the moment.
	But then when I point out that you're complaining about things, you say, no, no, no, it's part of a much larger pattern.
	Right?
	If it's part of a larger pattern for you, it's part of a larger pattern to her.
	In which case, it's not just about a walk
	It's not just about one thing, right?
	So I'm happy to talk about the patterns.
	I'm just pointing out that what you've done is you said to your wife, your concerns are petty, irrelevant, and unimportant, but my concerns are part of a much larger pattern that's really important.
	Your concerns, my wife, are just about 150 meters of road.
	My concerns are about big long-term patterns in the relationship.
	No, I hear you, yeah.
	So I'm perfectly happy to hear about the long-term patterns in the relationship.
	I am.
	But this is why it went so badly that day.
	I'm not saying this is conscious or willed or anything, but you're being kind of hypocritical when you say, your issues are petty and insignificant.
	My issue is about exactly the same thing, a part of a much larger and deeper pattern.
	You're crazy for being upset about this 150 meters, I'm totally sane and rational for being upset about these 150 meters.
	Because for you it's only 150 meters, for me it's this big giant pattern of dysfunction or whatever, right?
	But you can't have it both ways, right?
	It can't be that for her it's only about one thing, for you it's about a hundred things.
	Because for her, it's about a hundred things too, I guarantee it.
	Anyway, so if you want to talk about the other patterns... No, I agree.
	I agree with you that this makes what you're saying make sense.
	But I think for me, why it was upsetting to me that much, I mean, we could have walked, you know, 150 meters and the 150 meters the other way.
	No problem.
	I mean, it's hot, but whatever.
	But I think what caused me some disturbance is that she, just before that, like,
	Five minutes before that, she asked me to choose the way to go home.
	I chose it and then she got upset by what I chose.
	Like, if you were so explicitly for the other one, the other option, why would you put me in a situation where I choose and then you disregard my choice?
	Like, you know, pick one.
	You want me to choose or you don't?
	Don't pretend that you want me to choose and then when I choose you
	You make a scene about it.
	How was I supposed to quote-unquote win?
	There is no winning in this situation.
	I'm always set up to fail.
	Okay, so we've gone from one instance where she changed her mind to now, I can never win, I'm always set up, it's always a trap, and I'm always going to fail.
	Sorry, can you say that again?
	So she says to you, you choose the way home.
	You choose the way home.
	And then she says, that's dangerous, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So I'm sure in your life, you've changed your mind about something, right?
	Yes.
	You've said, I really want to go and see a movie.
	And then you get home, you have some pasta, you sit on the couch and you're like, I'm actually kind of mellow here.
	I think I'm going to stay home, right?
	Yes.
	All right.
	So you've changed your mind over the course of your life, right?
	Yes.
	Of course.
	So in this instance, your wife changed her mind.
	She said, you choose the way home.
	And then she's like, ooh, I kind of forgot that there's this railroad crossing with no signs or whatever, only a stop sign.
	And therefore, I don't want to do that direction.
	I'd forgotten about that or something like that, right?
	Right.
	So she changed her mind, as we all do, right?
	She changed her mind.
	Now, you've taken one instance where she changed her mind to now.
	It's a trap.
	You can't win.
	It always happens this way.
	You've turned it into everything, right?
	Right.
	That's how I feel, actually.
	No, I get that.
	But let me tell you how she feels.
	She feels that you make a catastrophe out of her changing her mind.
	He's a bully.
	I just, I decided something different.
	And I said, I want to go home the other way.
	And then he blows it up and ends up calling me a bitch.
	Like I'm not even, I'm, I'm tyrannized.
	I'm controlled.
	I'm bullied.
	I'm not even allowed to change my mind because he's just going to get angry.
	He's going to call me names and then he's going to blame me for calling me terrible names.
	And this happens all the time.
	I I'm, I'm bullied all the time.
	He he's willing to go to these extremes to call me terrible names.
	And this happens regularly and repetitively and I'm done with it!
	I've had enough!
	So she can take one instance and turn it into everything as well, right?
	So you take one instance where she changes her mind, asks you what you want to do, and then disagrees with it.
	I mean, come on, man!
	Have you never met a woman before?
	Come on, have you never met a woman before?
	Have you never met a woman who says, no, no, listen, come on, you say to a woman, we know this, we're men, right?
	Man to man, man to man, father to father, you meet a woman and you date a woman and then you say, where do you want to eat tonight?
	And she says, I don't know, you choose.
	I don't know.
	Well, how about Chinese food?
	No, I don't like the MSG.
	Okay, how about Greek food?
	Maybe, but we don't have any Greek food around that's close.
	And you're like, look, if you're telling me you'll eat wherever I want to eat, and then every time I suggest where are we going to eat?
	Come on, this is living with women, right?
	Exactly, and that is driving me crazy, Stefan.
	We had exactly those conversations.
	Why does it drive you crazy?
	It's kind of funny, isn't it?
	Okay, if you delegate something to me, then let me take care of it.
	If you are truly delegating it, you're gonna let me do it, you know, and stay on the side, like, okay, I'm not, you know, I'm not asking for blind following.
	No, no, that's a work thing, not a marriage thing.
	That's a work thing.
	At work, if your boss says, you figure out how to solve the problem, and then he micromanages you solving the problem, yeah, that's annoying.
	But this is... The comedians talk about this, right?
	It's not uncommon.
	I don't care.
	You choose where we go.
	You choose what we do this weekend.
	Okay, here's what we're going to do this weekend.
	No, definitely not.
	I don't really want to do that.
	Sorry.
	How is this okay?
	This is crazy, Stefan.
	This is not right.
	Why would you say you choose what we do this weekend, and then when I do choose, you are disagreeing with everything?
	Because your wife has recently given birth to a real-life human being.
	Is she still breastfeeding, or is that over?
	Yeah, she's still breastfeeding.
	Okay, so her hormones are all over the place, and, you know, you and I as men, we don't know.
	Like, a man is a tank, a woman is a roller coaster, all right?
	Let's just be frank about about this, right?
	No, we don't have hormonal changes.
	Yes.
	We're just like, we're the same thing, day after day after day after day, right?
	Maybe we're a little more tired, maybe we're a little grumpy, maybe we get hangry, but we're just like a tank.
	We don't know what it's like to be whipped up and down like the tail of a kite by your own hormones.
	Particularly when a woman is going through hormonal stuff, she doesn't know what she wants to do, but she does know what she doesn't want to do, if it's presented to her.
	And you can get mad about that if you want, but I mean, then you're just gonna have to become gay, or date an actual truck, or something like that.
	That's just life, isn't it?
	And listen, it's not like women don't have to put up with moodiness from us, come on.
	You know, you come home, you're stressed to the max, you're tense, you're upset, and she's got to deal with that.
	She didn't see all of the sources of your stress, she didn't follow you through the day at work, so she's had a real nice day breastfeeding your son, and playing with him, and doing some housework, and some cooking, and she's had a really nice day, and you come in like the high-stressed ogre Shrek of Doom, and she's got to manage that mood.
	So this is just part of marriage, right?
	That sometimes the other person
	Has emotional states that are inconvenience or whatever, right?
	But that's life, that's marriage.
	Sometimes you say, oh, I actually would prefer to take the shorter route.
	I don't feel particularly comfortable with that train track.
	And listen, you know and I know that women go insane about the protection of babies and toddlers, right?
	And it's a good thing they do.
	Because if babies and toddlers were in the charge of people like you and me, we'd misplace them on a regular basis.
	I put him down right by this, right by this lion.
	I put him right here.
	I don't know where he's gone.
	All I can find is one of his booties, right?
	So women are a little intense about the protection of babies and toddlers.
	And that's just where she's at, right?
	And then there's a hormonal stuff.
	Maybe she had a bad night's sleep and she's just grumpy.
	Oh, come on.
	You and I know that you and I can sometimes be grumpy, right?
	And difficult to deal with.
	Yeah, 100%.
	Right.
	So, sometimes she changes her mind.
	Sometimes you're stressed and moody.
	Sometimes you're bad-tempered.
	Sometimes she's difficult or oppositional or something like that, right?
	But you can't demand perfection unless you display perfection, and you and I and every other known human being on the planet do not display perfection, right?
	You can be snappy, you can be moody, you can be stressed.
	You're not perfect.
	I'm not perfect.
	She's not perfect.
	Welcome to planet Earth, right?
	But you have this seat of perfection.
	I mean, doesn't it come from this a little bit, like vanity?
	Well, I mean, you're moody and I'm not.
	But you are moody, right?
	How did you get that I come from the place of perfection?
	Because you don't criticize yourself, you only criticize others.
	OK.
	Have you ever sat down with your wife and said, listen, I mean, I was really stressed today.
	I was kind of snappy and kind of distant.
	And, you know, like you're home with our kid.
	I'm the basically the major contact with adulthood and the outside world.
	And I just haven't really been available to you.
	I've been consumed by stuff at work.
	That's not right.
	And I'm really sorry about that.
	And I shouldn't be snapping and I shouldn't be distant.
	And I've got to find a way to shrug off the work stuff when I come home.
	Have you ever apologized to your wife?
	For being moody, for being a little difficult, for being distant, for being distracted, or for being aggressive, right?
	Without a but, just, you know, I want to behave better, I want to do better.
	Yes.
	You have?
	Yes.
	Okay, good.
	And has she apologized to you for some of her stuff?
	Uh, yes.
	Okay.
	Can I use but?
	Can I use a but here or no?
	You can do whatever you want.
	Honesty is the key.
	Okay, so I'm going to use a but here.
	She did apologize, but it's really, how to say, she, by her own words, says that she cannot take criticism.
	She does not take criticism well.
	So in order for me to, like, criticize something, I really have to
	I don't know, find the proper way, choose words, you know, have to be a master of communication to bring this up.
	I can just not come straight to the point and say what is, you know, what is kind of, I'm bothering you, but like what is, but I cannot just raise a red flag what's wrong.
	Like, for me, this, I understand this is partly because women are like this, but for me, this is not, I don't find this cute or find it just, oh, the women are like this.
	For me, it's incomprehensible.
	Like, why don't you focus more on the topic of the conversation than the form?
	Why is it that we have to first discuss the form?
	Why we have to come to this alignment of the form and then discuss the topic?
	I'm exhausted by the end of this.
	You know, and we haven't even started the topic itself.
	Now we have to spend, you know, half an hour talking about the way I said something than what I said.
	It's exhausting.
	Okay.
	Now, did you know this about your wife before you married her?
	Did I know what?
	Did you know that your wife didn't like criticism before you married her?
	She told me that pretty early on.
	Yes, she did tell me that.
	Okay, so you married her knowing that she didn't like to be criticized.
	Yes, yes.
	Okay, so what are you complaining about?
	I'm sorry.
	You can choose any car in the lot.
	The car you want comes in red.
	Okay, I'll buy the car.
	I hate that this car is red.
	You chose her!
	And you're saying that she, hang on, you're saying that she gets mad at you, she offers you a choice, you make that choice, and then she has a problem with your choice.
	So you choose your wife knowing she doesn't like criticism, and then you get mad at her for something you chose.
	In other words, she's saying, you can marry me or not, but I don't like criticism.
	And then you marry her, and then you're like, I'm so angry that you don't like criticism.
	You understand, you're rejecting your choice about something a little bit more important than 150 meters on a walk.
	See, you say, well, she gave me the choice, I chose, and then she's upset with my choice.
	Okay, you dated, this is why I asked how many women, you dated, you slept with 13 women, whatever, right?
	And you chose this one, right?
	You chose this one, you chose 7% of the women you slept with you chose to marry.
	So you could have kept waiting, you could have not dated anyone, you could have, whatever, right?
	You chose this woman, and then you're mad at your own choice.
	You understand?
	Yes.
	That you're mad at her for rejecting your choice.
	She's mad at you for rejecting your choice.
	You chose a woman who doesn't like criticism.
	Well, hello.
	Okay, true.
	So you don't get to blame her when she was up front.
	She wasn't lying about this.
	She didn't pretend to take criticism well for the first six months.
	She said right up front, I'm very raw about criticism.
	Probably because she had
	You're right.
	But my line of thinking was that, okay, if it's like a small issue, it can be like
	Correct that if you see that that it's an issue and it's easily You know corrected.
	It's easily it's doable.
	Why wouldn't you you know, like everything's easily correctable, but it's not your issue But I corrected so many things that fun, you know, I am I am I have done so much work on on my part I was Wait, hang on brother.
	Hang on just a single goddamn second here Are you saying that calling the mother of your child is a bitch?
	And completely denigrating her issues, and then giving her a fake apology.
	This is the vastly improved you?
	Okay, why was it fake apology?
	I am truly sorry that I called her a bitch.
	No, because you said, I'm sorry, but you provoked me.
	But you can drop, you can drop, if you have issues with fake apology, no problem.
	So what you're saying is that, hang on, hang on, what you're saying is you vastly improved to the point
	Where you blow up at the mother of your child and you call her a bitch.
	That's you after a significant amount of improvement.
	Is that right?
	But here's the thing.
	If only I had not said the word bitch, where was I wrong?
	What part was wrong?
	I still don't get it.
	You really think that your wife is the one who's tough to criticize?
	How easy is it for me to criticize you?
	How open are you to being criticized?
	I think I'm open, no?
	No, you're not.
	You're absolutely not.
	And again, I don't say this with any negativity or hostility, I'm just pointing out the fact as I see it, right?
	So we just had this whole 20-minute conversation about how you said the issue on the walk was one tiny little thing that your wife should have
	Ignored.
	And then when I point out, it's a tiny little thing that you also should have ignored, if that's the standard, you say, no, no, no, for me, it's this big giant issue, right?
	It's been going on for years, right?
	So even if you had not called her a bitch, you still have the attitude that conflicts are only small and unimportant for your wife, but the exact same conflict is really big and essential and important for you.
	On which topic I'm fighting to the death?
	Because it's, uh... On which one?
	I wanted to talk about this topic.
	Uh-huh.
	Because you didn't want to walk 150 extra meters.
	And you say, oh no, but it's because she asked me and then she disagreed.
	Yeah, okay, so what?
	So she changed her mind.
	Get over it.
	You're a big boy.
	She changed her mind.
	She's allowed to change her mind, isn't she?
	She is, yeah.
	You didn't sign a contract in blood with Satan, right?
	You choose to walk.
	Oh, let's go this way.
	Ooh, sorry, actually, I don't really want to.
	Okay, yeah.
	So it's not a big issue, so why do you end up calling your wife a bitch for something that's not a big issue?
	So you get angry at her because it's such an unimportant issue, why ruin the day?
	But then you make it into a giant important issue worth not just ruining the day, but ruining your marriage!
	Right?
	So this is the asymmetry, this is the difference, right?
	No, I totally understand this, but
	Okay, so in this situation I was supposed to yield, right?
	And say, okay, let's override this decision and then go for the other direction, no problem.
	Okay, hang on, are you right when you say it was unimportant?
	You said about your wife, it's unimportant which way we go home.
	It's not worth ruining the day over, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so then if it's unimportant,
	Then you should have just gone the way she wanted to go, because it's unimportant, right?
	It doesn't matter.
	I asked her many times, hey, please, let's not make this a big issue, you know, and she just wouldn't drop it.
	And I guess we're always on this brinksmanship, you know, and in this situation, neither one of us yielded.
	And that's how it exploded to this.
	See, it's even in the words that you use.
	Yield!
	Like you're surrendering to some warrior.
	You're baring your throat in some gladiatorial combat.
	The word I use is gracious.
	You know, if someone in my life says, let's do this, and then they change their mind, I'm not yielding.
	I'm not submitting.
	I'm not losing.
	I'm just being gracious.
	Okay, we can go do that.
	Let me write that one.
	Because it's not important.
	It's not important which path you take home.
	It's a 10-minute difference, right?
	We can both agree that which path you took home on that day was not important, right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	So if it's not important, then if she says, you choose the way home, and you say, let's do this way, and she says, actually, no, I'd rather do that way, you say, OK.
	Because it's not important, right?
	Right.
	But you basically were snarling at her that she shouldn't get upset because it's not important while you were hitting the roof and calling her names eventually, right?
	Right.
	But you can be gracious.
	It doesn't matter, right?
	Now, I can also tell you that it probably was a trap and you fell into it.
	What happened that day that you were already upset with each other?
	That day was kind of early on.
	I would say early afternoon.
	I just I got home the day before and I slept a little bit in maybe and the day has just started.
	We actually spent a pretty nice time in the park.
	Everything was fine.
	And this was my only day off that week.
	I had a really crazy week.
	So I was just looking forward to just, you know, enjoying it nicely.
	I was looking forward to spending time with them.
	And then I was kind of angry that she would bring this up to such a level.
	I'm sorry.
	Maybe I wasn't clear.
	Yeah.
	What was she upset about with before you went on the walk?
	Was she upset about you with something before you went on the walk?
	Maybe not just about something that happened in the morning, but was she upset with you about how you were behaving?
	Maybe job stresses?
	Maybe absence?
	Maybe emotional unavailability?
	Was she upset with you about something as a whole before you went on the walk?
	I cannot think of anything in particular, but I was longer at work those days.
	Maybe I was extra stressed, but I cannot think that she was.
	Okay, so hang on.
	So how long have you guys been together since you first met?
	Sorry, I didn't understand the question.
	How long have you been together?
	Right, so eight years.
	Eight years?
	Yes.
	So, I guarantee you that your wife absolutely knows that giving you a choice and then overriding your choice upsets you.
	She knows that, right?
	Okay.
	No, does she?
	I mean, either she doesn't know fundamental aspects of your personality after lying with you and making a baby for eight years.
	Either she has no idea how you work or what makes you upset, or she does know.
	I hope she does because this is a repeating thing.
	So she was upset with you about something, and so she did a passive-aggressive thing.
	And this is common among women.
	Happens with men too, but it's a bit more common among women.
	So she did a passive-aggressive thing.
	Do you know what passive-aggression is?
	Do you know how it works?
	Please help me.
	So passive aggression is when you're angry at someone, but you can't express it for whatever reason.
	You want to dominate them, so what you do is you provoke them into bad behavior, and then you win, and you dominate them, and you humiliate them.
	So I think you're right in that it was a trap.
	Because she's upset at you about something.
	Maybe more than one thing.
	Probably more than one thing.
	She's upset with you about something.
	And so she goes on this walk.
	She says, you choose the way home.
	And then she says, I don't want to go that way.
	Now, does she know that that's going to push a big red button in you?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Now, the reason that people become passive-aggressive around us is we don't listen to their reasonable complaints.
	Right, so if you don't... if your wife has an issue with you, and you don't listen to her, you minimize it.
	It's not real.
	It's not important.
	It doesn't matter.
	Well, that doesn't make the upset go away, does it?
	I mean, you couldn't even make yourself not upset on that day.
	There's no way you could make your wife not upset.
	Certainly not by diminishing or ignoring or minimizing her concerns, right?
	So she's mad at you, but you don't listen.
	So how does that anger come out?
	She pushes your buttons.
	And you blow up and you call her a name.
	And now she's in the right, you're in the wrong.
	She's justified.
	She goes running and crying to mommy and daddy, who unfortunately for you, don't like you.
	Like, this is a whole other factor, right?
	Which is, you said the parents came by to pick up her stuff.
	They didn't even talk to you, right?
	I was not there.
	I was not at home then.
	Okay, but they haven't talked to you over the whole course of the breakup, right?
	No, no.
	Never, never.
	Not a call.
	So, did you know that they don't like you and were probably counseling her to leave you?
	I am aware that they don't like me, yes.
	But I'm not sure if they...
	So they don't like you, right?
	Of course they don't, because if they liked you, then they would sit down and try and help you as a couple work through this stuff for the sake of their grandson, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so they really don't like you, and your wife, of course, has been talking to her parents, complaining about you, and what do her parents say?
	Yeah, just come.
	Come to us.
	Yes, you should leave him.
	He's a bad guy.
	Get out.
	Right?
	Right.
	Now, when did you know they didn't like you?
	Well, I didn't know they explicitly didn't like me.
	But early on, you know, I could understand that they maybe had different expectations for her.
	Or maybe I was not up to their liking.
	I don't know how to say this.
	I understood that pretty early.
	But what can I do?
	I'm not marrying them.
	I'm marrying her.
	No, what do you mean you're not marrying them?
	Of course you're marrying them.
	Sorry, maybe that's different in the part of the world that you come from, but as far as I understand it,
	In-laws basically say welcome to the family and you are marrying them because you're spending every other weekend with them and they have a huge influence over your wife.
	Yeah, but this is pretty recent development.
	We were not really visiting them all that often before we had the son.
	And I don't want to speak too much on my wife's behalf, but she does not really have that
	I wouldn't say that.
	I'm sorry, I thought you said that you would have conflicts every time you'd go over.
	No, she would with her mom, for example.
	Okay, and did this translate... Hang on.
	Did this translate into problems in your marriage?
	If your wife were having conflicts with her mother?
	Well, my wife would be, you know, upset and she would not be in the mood and she would be...
	You know crying and she would not her day would be ruined for sure Right, which has a negative effect on you and on your son, right?
	Yes.
	Yes and Would it be the case that most times she would go over to her parents house?
	That she would end up in conflict or in tears or something would go wrong You it would happen often I saw them arguing and I
	And again, I just couldn't understand it.
	They speak different languages, so I'm not sure what they were exactly talking about.
	Well, that doesn't matter in particular.
	What matters is that these are people who make the mother of your child cry on a regular basis, right?
	The regular basis is too much.
	They're not fighting all the time, but they do have arguments.
	I'm sorry, regular basis does not mean all the time.
	Right.
	If I have regular bowel movements, that doesn't mean I live on the toilet, right?
	Yeah, but they don't fight daily, no.
	They don't fight daily.
	Did I say daily?
	I understood that word as a daily, no?
	No, see, this is why you get into all these conflicts, is you substitute words for what other people are saying, right?
	The straw man, right?
	Because you told me that often when you're over on weekends, there'll be a conflict, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So it's not once a year.
	It's not twice a year.
	It's twice a month.
	Like every third time we go, there is some drama.
	There is a big drama.
	Okay.
	So what's your job as the husband and the father?
	Are you asking me?
	That's a good question.
	Yeah.
	To provide for my family and protect them and... No, that's it.
	Provide and protect.
	Okay.
	So, your wife is exposed to negative elements on a regular, though not daily basis, that makes her upset, makes her cry, is bad for your marriage, is bad for her parenting, is bad for your son.
	What's your job as the husband and the father?
	To fix that, you know, provide, protect and make her feel safe.
	It's to protect her, right?
	Right.
	I mean, if you had some friend who once or twice a month made your wife cry and ruined your day, would you like that friend?
	No.
	If your wife had a boss
	No.
	No.
	I'm not sure.
	I think maybe I was not strong enough to enforce that.
	Well, hang on, you can't enforce things, right?
	Right.
	You can't enforce things.
	But you can be very clear.
	And you can say something like, I don't like your parents because they make you cry.
	Right, right.
	And I don't want to go there for the weekend.
	I also don't like
	Exposing my son to this level of drama once or twice a month.
	It's not healthy.
	So I would like to help.
	I mean, I'm happy to help with your parents.
	Uh, you know, maybe y'all can go to family therapy or find some other better way of communicating, but I can't support this because I love you.
	And if I love you, I can't also love somebody who makes you cry.
	I can't love someone who hurts you and love you at the same time.
	I want to protect you.
	And I'm sure you don't, you know, you might say to her, I'm sure you don't have any love for my boss who, uh, whatever, right?
	Who makes me stressed or whatever, right?
	But, but I want to protect you.
	So I, I don't like your parents right now.
	I don't like that they yell at you.
	I don't like that your mother makes you cry.
	I don't like the level of conflict.
	I don't like it at all.
	I can't obviously tell you what to do, but I can tell you that
	And now, of course, this is a conversation you should have had before you got married and before you had a child, right?
	And before you have a child, you have to say, we don't put our children in toxic environments, right?
	Any more than we would feed them lead paint, right?
	We don't put them in toxic environments.
	And you'd have to have that agreement, right?
	And then you have the kid.
	And if her parents are toxic or whatever, right?
	Then you say, well, no, we can't.
	I can't tell you to go or not go.
	I'm not your ruler.
	I'm not your lord and master.
	I'm not your owner.
	I can't prevent you from going.
	But I don't want to go because I don't want to support people who make you cry.
	And I don't want to bow down to your father because I'm a father and it's my job to be strong to my family, not to bow down to his family.
	And I don't want my son in that environment.
	That's not right.
	We don't have the right to expose him to that kind of dysfunction, right?
	I don't want him to see his mother crying.
	I don't want him to hear the raised voices.
	I don't want the stress hormones to go into your breast milk and then into his body.
	We don't have that right, right?
	Absolutely, you're right.
	And did it ever cross your mind to take a stand with regards to people who were, on a semi-regular basis, if you like, hurting your wife?
	We did actually speak about this topic
	Many years ago, when the drama between them was much stronger, much more frequent.
	But, um, it never kind of, uh, created, nothing happened.
	Because you didn't fight.
	They won.
	But I didn't want to separate her from her parents.
	Now her parents have separated her from you.
	Do you understand what a battle this is?
	You don't have a choice to not get involved in these fights.
	First of all, you wouldn't.
	You'd just be having standards, right?
	You're just having standards.
	I don't want to be around dysfunctional people.
	I don't want you to be around dysfunctional people, but that's your choice.
	And I sure as hell don't want my son to be around dysfunctional people.
	You say, oh, well, I didn't want to
	Yeah, I don't, I don't...
	I'm honestly shocked with their reaction.
	I mean, by not at all talking to me, because all this time we were we were fine.
	We were OK.
	We were not like, oh, my God, best friends forever.
	But things were fine between us.
	But I'm really amazed that they didn't even.
	They were never interested to hear me.
	Do you like her parents?
	I like her dad, but I don't like her mom.
	Oh, so you've got this good cop, bad cop thing, good parent, bad parent thing.
	Does her dad intervene when she and her mom fight?
	Does he calm them down?
	Does he reason things through?
	Does he say, this is unacceptable?
	We have a kid in the house that, you know, it looks bad for her husband.
	We can't do this.
	Does he stand in and stand strong and intervene and make things right?
	Yeah, but with delay, you know, he like lets them dish it out and then he like says, okay, stop.
	Okay, but does he solve the problem in the long run, or does he just play whack-a-mole and deal with what's happening in the moment without ever changing the pattern?
	The latter.
	Okay.
	Do you respect your father-in-law?
	For the most time, yes.
	Oh, dude.
	How?
	But he, for example, he also works very hard to provide for his family.
	He's a good guy.
	You know, he works hard.
	He's there.
	He's a good guy who just nuked your marriage, man.
	Like, what the fuck?
	I don't understand your thinking.
	Again, I'm probably missing something.
	I'm happy to be corrected.
	But this guy just participated in nuking your marriage.
	And he's a good guy?
	He let it happen?
	He didn't help?
	No, he's not just letting it happen.
	No, no, there's no such thing as letting it happen in your life.
	He has, for eight years, not dealt with conflicts.
	Between, well, I mean, for decades, right?
	Since his daughter was little, he hasn't stepped up and told his wife and his daughter, and his wife in particular, because she was the mother and
	Your wife was little saying, you know, you can't treat your daughter that way.
	You can't treat your children that way.
	This is not acceptable.
	This is harmful.
	He didn't protect his daughter.
	He didn't protect your wife.
	And now he's letting or allowing or facilitating his wife with his participation, nuking your marriage.
	Okay, I see your point.
	I agree.
	But I think I would put more blame definitely on her mom because I think she would more actively... Oh my god, you're going to drive me completely insane.
	I'm sorry.
	And I just say this because, you know, you've listened to Untruth and all of that.
	Okay.
	Is there a different dial of... This is the whole point I've been on since the very beginning of this call.
	Is there a different dial of responsibility
	For two equal partners in a relationship, can the wife be more responsible for something negative and the husband less responsible for something that's negative?
	I would say yes, yes.
	You are absolutely incorrect!
	You are both equally responsible because you chose her.
	You chose to see her, date her, get engaged to her, marry her, have a child with her and stay with her for eight years, right?
	You are 100% responsible, and she is 100% responsible.
	This is what people do in relationships.
	They get mad, they excuse themselves, and they blame the other person, right?
	You gave me a choice.
	And then you took that choice away.
	It's 100% you, and because I am an innocent victim here and you are the bad actor, I can now get angry at you and, hey man, it's just self-defense.
	Because you're 100% wrong, I'm 100% right.
	No.
	Absolutely false.
	Absolutely false.
	You chose her.
	Knowing who she was.
	You cannot ever blame your wife.
	You cannot blame your wife.
	That leads to abuse and destruction.
	Because then you feel like you're an angel and she's a devil.
	You're all right.
	She's all bad.
	And that gives you permission to do shitty stuff.
	You cannot blame her.
	You chose her.
	If you spend an entire week picking out the perfect outfit, do you then get to bitch about the outfit when you go out?
	Can I add something?
	Of course.
	Of course.
	You're a smart, eloquent guy.
	You listen to philosophy.
	Fantastic, right?
	So you're top tier.
	You could have chosen any woman you wanted.
	Oh, I'm not that successful in their eyes, but okay.
	I know you just got a demotion, but I mean, you've been working hard, right?
	And you are providing.
	So you could have chosen, and certainly eight years ago, right?
	You could have chosen just about any girl you wanted.
	This is the girl you chose.
	So you can't blame her.
	She is your choice.
	She is a manifestation of your free will.
	You can't blame her because you chose her.
	Nobody forced you.
	Like you can blame parents because we don't choose parents, right?
	We're just born into the households, right?
	But you chose her.
	You chose to date, get engaged, marry, live with, have a child with eight years.
	You cannot attack her without attacking yourself.
	You cannot denigrate her without denigrating yourself.
	You're in the mental position of one of two people in a rowboat in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and you say, I'm just going to drill a hole in your side of the boat, but my side will be fine.
	No, you both sink.
	You can't make her wrong without shitting on yourself.
	Because if you say, she's wrong, she's bad, she's dysfunctional, she's messed up, she's this, that, or the other, then you're saying, I'm so messed up, I chose someone who's like this.
	In which case, you're right.
	Everything you put on her, you put on yourself.
	There's no independent insult of the woman you chose to be the mother of your child.
	Did I insult her in this conversation?
	You blamed her.
	And you certainly reported insulting her.
	A bitch is one of the worst things a woman can hear, right?
	But you're blaming her!
	But you're...
	You know what the Bible says, whether you're religious or not, there's a lot of wisdom in the good book, right?
	The Bible says, you are one flesh.
	And what I mean by that is that it's the same, you're the same person, you're the same body, you are one flesh.
	Like if I don't, if I lift weights and I don't get the biceps I want, is it fair for me to stab my biceps?
	Say again please.
	I blame my biceps.
	I'm angry at them.
	I'm going to stab them because they're not giving me the bulk and size that I want.
	That would be crazy, right?
	Because I'm stabbing myself.
	It's the same thing with your wife.
	You can't insult your wife without insulting yourself.
	So you failed to see a threat to your marriage, which was your wife's parents, right?
	And that threat has now manifested in that.
	I guarantee you, I guarantee you this, that before she decided to leave you, she talked it over for weeks, if not months, if not longer with her parents, right?
	I'm someone happy.
	He's not available.
	He's mean to me.
	And I mean, if you have a daughter and you hear that her boyfriend, I know you're not a boyfriend, but let's say you've got a daughter, you love her to death.
	And one of her boyfriends calls her a bitch.
	How would you feel about that boyfriend?
	Not good.
	Right, so you handed a weapon not just to your wife but to her parents.
	Because she went home and she's in tears and she's sobbing at some point maybe over the phone or maybe she went to see them in
	On her own while you're at work and she's like, he called me a bitch.
	I can't stand it.
	He's he's so mean, right?
	So then all of these things start moving out of sight, right?
	These shifts, these changes, these alignments, this preparation, right?
	You got to get out, honey.
	No man should ever speak to you that way.
	That's a whole other topic there.
	That is a whole other conversation.
	How people are presenting themselves as friends, but they're actually not.
	I just don't get it.
	Someone who makes your wife cry, I don't know how a family that makes your wife cry, that you can love and respect anybody in that family.
	When you have that kind of situation, it's kind of a battle to the death, like either you win or they win, but there's usually not much of a draw.
	Sorry, I've had a couple of speeches here, so I want to sort of check in with you, see what you're thinking and feeling before the final topic for me.
	I don't know.
	I don't know what to say, Stefan.
	All right, now.
	There's one person conspicuously absent, it seems to me, from what you're talking about.
	Because you're talking about you and your wife, right?
	You and your wife.
	My wife said this.
	I said that.
	She bothers me about this.
	I upset her with that.
	Right?
	You and your wife.
	You and your wife.
	You and your wife.
	Right?
	Now, let's say that you were in the right about something, right?
	You were just in the right.
	And you could fix your marriage to some degree by just apologizing.
	By just completely apologizing, right?
	And saying, you know what?
	I did call you a bitch.
	That's absolutely unacceptable.
	It doesn't matter what you did.
	Absolutely unacceptable.
	I'm incredibly sorry.
	I'm going to immediately sign up for anger management and I'm going to deal with this.
	100%, right?
	And you should never ever... I commit that I will never ever say anything like that again.
	That was...yep.
	My son?
	I'm calling you because of my son.
	I'm calling you so...
	So that your son doesn't grow up with divorced parents.
	So that your son doesn't end up stuck in the house with your wife and her combat mother.
	Yeah, if I did that, I would end up just like her father.
	And I am not okay with that.
	I'm sorry?
	Let's
	I'm sorry, how do you know?
	How do you know that?
	Because you can see people who are like this.
	You can see them around.
	I'm sorry, like not ten minutes ago you told me that you respected her father and now you say it's the worst thing in the world to be like your father.
	To be like her father.
	You understand why I'm a little confused here?
	No, no, I do understand.
	You're right.
	It's the worst thing in the world to end up like that guy I like and respect.
	I don't think he's respected.
	I don't care about the abstract.
	You told me that you did respect him.
	So this is called catastrophizing.
	And my question is, and look, I understand your concern.
	I really, really, really do.
	I absolutely understand your concern.
	If you have two people acting badly in a relationship,
	What is the only solution that's possible?
	Because I want to give you real solutions, not imaginary ones.
	What is the only real solution?
	You and your wife are both behaving badly.
	And there's good things there too, right?
	We're just focusing on the negative, right?
	So you and your wife are both behaving badly.
	What is the only solution for you that you have control over?
	My behavior.
	I'm sorry?
	I have only control of my behavior.
	So, you can't make her act better, right?
	No.
	I was hoping, but no.
	Well, that won't work.
	Because why people split up is often because also they say, well, I'm behaving badly, you're behaving badly, so you improve first and then I'll match you.
	But that's not how it works.
	Now, of course, everyone is afraid in a dysfunctional relationship
	Right.
	But I think you're going to... Okay.
	I have changed a lot.
	Like, I used to be a person that is, you know, my way or highway, but I did, I adjusted because I understand that we are in a relationship, that we are, you know, together.
	I cannot just have it my way, but I want to see that the same kind of approach on the other side.
	I cannot be just the only, the only one.
	No, dude, dude.
	Fuck me, man.
	Now we're back to this bullshit, which is you telling me, oh,
	The guy who said his wife is a bitch is the vastly improved guy.
	Okay, if you're so improved... Hang on, if you're so... I only had one affair, I only killed one guy.
	Right?
	That's a terrible thing to say to the mother of your child.
	And I don't believe that the apology was truly authentic, because you had, but you provoked me in it, but I don't want to get into that debate again, because that's yours to decide.
	But... Can you improve?
	Yes, of course.
	Right.
	It's not gonna happen.
	Yeah.
	Now if your wife is hurt you and your wife is Frustrated you then changing for her is tough because you're not in a position where you like her hugely So I get that but you don't do it for your wife.
	You do it for your son Now If you don't commit to improving and actually improve
	What happens to your marriage?
	It's going to end.
	Yeah, it's over, right?
	Right.
	It's over.
	Now, who does that harm the most?
	Your son, right?
	Now, you have nothing to lose by committing to improvement.
	Because if you improve, one of two things is going to happen, right?
	Either your wife, she's going to be skeptical, she's going to be hostile, but after a while she might be like, wow, he really has changed.
	Wow, he really is improving.
	And then she will be inspired by that and work to improve herself.
	Right?
	One possibility.
	The other possibility is that
	You improve, you do therapy, anger management, you do whatever work you need to do to improve.
	You take full responsibility, you resist the infantile urge to blame other people that you chose to have in your life.
	So, you improve and she turns into an even more horrible person because she then exploits your improvement and lords it over you and all of that, right?
	Now, the downside of that is what?
	Your marriage fails.
	But your marriage is going to fail anyway!
	Do you see what I mean?
	Like you've nothing to lose as far as that goes.
	Your marriage is going to fail.
	Your marriage is failing anyway.
	So if you improve and your wife becomes worse and meaner and more exploitive and so on, right?
	Well, you haven't lost anything, but you've gained something enormous.
	Do you know what you gain if you improve and your wife gets worse?
	What?
	A clear conscience that you did the very best you could.
	Right.
	The only chance, in my view, for your marriage to succeed, which is what your son needs, is for you to take full responsibility, full ownership, blame no one, blame nothing, accept it all.
	Work to improve.
	Anger management, therapy, workbooks, whatever is going to work for you.
	Fully commit to improving.
	Fully resist the devilish temptation to blame others that you chose.
	Now, if this saves your marriage, you have done a heroic and wonderful thing to the great benefit of your son and your wife.
	You're also going to have to engage in some pretty
	Interesting combat with your wife's parents at some point, because if you rescue her from them, which is fundamentally what you're trying to do, then at some point you either have a sit-down with them or with your wife and say, hmm, you know, we hit a real crisis.
	Our house was on fire and your parents were throwing gasoline on the flames.
	So they can kindly take a long walk off a short pier, as far as I'm concerned.
	They took a bad situation, made it worse.
	They saw I was stabbed, they twisted the blade.
	Yeah, I don't see our relationship ever fixing, me and her parents.
	Even if we get back together, I don't think I could ever go back to their house or pretend that we're friends.
	That's done.
	Yeah, they've facilitated the destruction of your marriage, then that's bad, right?
	So, you seek to improve, you take total responsibility.
	This might save your marriage.
	Fantastic.
	If it
	Doesn't save your marriage if your wife looks at your improvement and then says, Oh, he's finally admitted his fault.
	I'm totally in the right.
	And I'm, you know, and then she just becomes even more insufferable and unbearable and aggressive or whatever it is, right?
	Then you at least know that you did everything you could to try and save the marriage, to try and help things, try and improve things.
	And you see your, your, your,
	See, when you blame your wife, you never get to see the real person because she's always trying to navigate and dodge that blame.
	Now, if you just take 150% responsibility and say, yep, the problems in the marriage, I'm going to assume they're all on me.
	I'm going to work as hard as I can.
	Right?
	We've got two fat people.
	One person is going to say, you know what?
	I'm not waiting for you to get fit.
	I'm just going to eat better.
	I'm going to exercise.
	I hope.
	That you will come along for the journey.
	I hope to inspire you.
	If you want any tips or hints on how I've lost weight and eat better, then I'm happy to help and all of that, right?
	Then that's what you do.
	Because all you can do is control what you put in your mouth, and all you can do is control the words that come out of your mouth, right?
	So, okay.
	So that's fine.
	Hey, sorry, that was my bad.
	My computer ran out of battery, but we're fine now.
	So yeah, if you improve and she gets worse, then you've done everything you could, and then you chose the wrong person, you learned your lessons, you figure out what you missed, and so on, right?
	And then at least when your son says what happened, you can say, look, I definitely did some wrong things, but I really, I did go to anger management, and here's the receipts.
	I did go to therapy, and here's the receipts.
	Your mother chose not.
	I wanted to do couples counseling with your mother.
	She chose not to.
	She didn't do any anger management.
	She didn't do any therapy.
	She didn't do any couples counseling.
	I made mistakes.
	I absolutely tried my very best and I'm really sorry that it worked out the way that it did.
	And I take responsibility for that because I chose your mother to be your mother.
	So that's on me.
	There's no downside to taking responsibility.
	Other than, you know, vanity and pride and wanting to blame other people and make yourself innocent and like all of that nonsense that goes on.
	And, you know, I say nonsense.
	I mean, I'm still prone to it now and it happens and, you know, it's a natural human impulse.
	But philosophy, like nutrition, is designed to go a little bit against some of our natural human impulses.
	So what do you think?
	I keep thinking about him, about my son, because if the marriage gets, you know, broken and dissolved, he's going to take all the brunt of it.
	Right.
	And that's why you put aside, that's why you put aside your ego, your vanity, your desire to be right, your desire to make the other person wrong, your self-righteousness, which we all have.
	I have it, you have it, every single, your wife has it, everyone has it.
	And that's like a devil whispering in your ear and says,
	Don't be happy.
	Don't be right.
	Don't do what's right.
	Just be, just feel right.
	Don't be right.
	Just feel right.
	But you have to put all of that aside because of your son.
	Your son needs his parents together.
	You can't force your wife to change, but there can come a point where you thank her and you say, you know what?
	You really got me into anger management.
	You really got me into therapy.
	You broke me out of this whole pattern.
	Thank you for taking a stand against my bad behavior.
	I hugely respect you and I love you for doing that, for shaking me out of my hypnosis and getting me into therapy or anger management or whatever, right?
	Like you really did the right thing.
	I really appreciate that.
	And you were totally right to do it.
	But you got to do it quick because I, you know, I virtually guarantee you that her parents are pouring all of this poison into her ear.
	About never going back, and he's a terrible guy, and thank God you got out, and you know, you can't put your son through this.
	Like, you gotta move quick.
	Because you're racing the clock here, I think.
	And if I were you, if I were you, I would, I just meet her face to face and say, it's all on me.
	It's all on me.
	I am going to deal with this.
	You have woken me up.
	I'm so sorry for how I've been behaving.
	I called you the B word.
	It's the worst thing I've ever said.
	I'm ashamed to my very core.
	I am going to fix this.
	You know, I hope we get back together.
	I really do.
	But even if we don't, even if for whatever reason we do end up separated,
	Me not having this kind of aggressive temper and me not having this permission to, to call you terrible words.
	That's going to be for the, it's for the benefit of everyone.
	It's something I need to do.
	I'm really sorry.
	I didn't do it sooner.
	It's a wake up call.
	I was wrong and I'm going to fix this in myself.
	And I hope that you will rejoin me in this journey.
	No pride, no vanity, no righteousness.
	For you, and for your son, and in the long run for your wife as well.
	It's the stuff we don't say that gets us, right?
	It's not that you call her the B word, it's that you haven't
	Just accepted that as 100% your responsibility.
	Because it's hard for you to look.
	I mean, it's hard for all.
	We've all done wrong things.
	We've all done bad things.
	And it's hard to look in the mirror and say, yeah, I did something really wrong here.
	I did something really wrong.
	But it's kind of essential, right?
	Because we all do ring things that are wrong.
	We all say things that are mean.
	We all just do something that's really wrong.
	And my wife is not putting up with it.
	And good for her.
	She shouldn't.
	And you do need to deal with this temper, right?
	Am I am I right about this?
	Sorry, I wasn't sure what that was.
	No, no, I'm thinking like I see where you're coming from.
	OK, I can deal with it with my temper.
	I can get help.
	But, okay, I will have to again re-listen to this and think about this.
	Look, and again, I'm not saying your wife didn't behave badly, but if you and your wife are both fat and all you do is say, yeah, but she's overeating, what am I going to say?
	But the thing is, to her, this is not addressed at all.
	She doesn't find that she's in wrong, you know, and I'm
	I don't want to put us back into the earlier in this conversation It just feels like I'm I'm trying always to I'm going to now be the one who is admit fault and try to get better You are modeling.
	Okay.
	Listen, listen, you are modeling better behavior for her Right.
	Listen, you're not a guy who admits that he's at fault a huge amount either I'm not saying there's some terrible flaw because we're all like this to some degree right but I
	She's probably never ever seen someone take full ownership of his actions, right?
	She's probably never seen that anywhere.
	You don't see it in the arts.
	You don't see it in movies or television or songs.
	It's always like, you broke my heart and you're a bastard or whatever, right?
	So she's probably never seen someone taking complete and total responsibility for his or her own actions, right?
	So what you're doing
	is you're doing the right thing because you are in control of yourself and she's not in control of you, right?
	Only you control your mouth.
	She doesn't.
	Only you control your nervous system.
	She doesn't.
	Only you are wired into your spine.
	She is not.
	So only you control your actions.
	So you taking full responsibility for your actions is the truth, right?
	Because earlier you said, I really liked your book on truth.
	So tell the truth.
	It's like the truth is nobody forced you to call her a bitch.
	Nobody forces you to raise your voice.
	Nobody forces you to be stressed.
	Nobody forces you or controls you, right?
	These are all choices that you make.
	So, you are modeling taking responsibility.
	Now, maybe she'll be inspired by that and she'll take responsibility.
	It's like you've cut a bunch of firewood deep in the woods, right?
	You've cut a bunch of firewood and it all needs to get back to the cottage, right?
	And you and your wife are arguing about who should take more back or who should carry it or who's responsible or who carried it last time and, you know, who's a bitch for not agreeing or... right?
	And at some point don't you just pick up the firewood and walk to the cottage?
	Am I wrong?
	Oh, what?
	And now, what's she going to do?
	Is she just going to stand there arguing with no one?
	No!
	What's she going to do?
	She'll proceed.
	She'll pick up some firewood and follow you home.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	If you change what you're doing, she's going to have to change what she's doing.
	If you take responsibility, odds are... I can't guarantee it, right?
	Because it's free will.
	If you take responsibility,
	And if you blame someone, what do they do?
	They feel defensive and they attack back, right?
	You do that.
	I do it.
	Everyone does it.
	If someone blames you, you get defensive.
	You either get passive aggressive or you get aggressive back.
	Do we agree on that?
	Yes.
	So when we are around someone, like behavior is infectious, right?
	Behavior spreads.
	So if you are around someone, if your wife
	Yeah.
	Would you be more inclined to take responsibility for what you're doing if she took responsibility for what she's doing?
	100% yes.
	So be that leader!
	Do what you would respect in someone else.
	Whereas if she comes along and she says it's all your fault, you're responsible for all of it, you're a bastard, blah blah blah blah blah, then you'll be like, all you do is fight back.
	You don't take any responsibility.
	You're just in a battle.
	It's a stupid battle.
	It leads nowhere, right?
	Well, except back to your parents, right?
	So if she would take complete responsibility, you'd be like, oh, load off my shoulders.
	Now I can think clearly.
	Now I can start to take some responsibility without feeling like I'm going to get blamed forever.
	Right?
	So be a leader.
	You want to be the man you provide and you protect.
	How do you protect people who don't take responsibility?
	You take responsibility.
	You model the better behavior.
	If you would respect her for taking full responsibility, you will also respect yourself for doing the same.
	Right.
	Whereas two people yelling at each other, no you're the problem, not me!
	No you're the problem, not me!
	Is that something you can respect?
	You're right, it's not.
	It's not?
	You know, doing what you respect is never a bad course of action, is it?
	And it's breaking a cycle.
	It's breaking a pattern.
	You have to do something different or you're just going to end up with the same outcomes, right?
	And if you've been blaming each other, if you've been blaming her, and I know it's not, it's not black and white.
	I get that, but you have to change what's happening or the outcome is preordained.
	So if you have been blaming her to some degree, just take a hundred percent responsibility.
	You don't know how that's going to play out.
	But you know that if you continue to do what you're doing, your marriage is probably done and you don't have the right to do that because you have a son.
	And he's looking at you and his breath is hanging in the balance, like your son's future is hanging in the balance.
	He is on a frayed thread over a deep canyon.
	And you have to do whatever it takes to protect him.
	And if that means, which it should,
	Taking 100% responsibility, committing to dealing with anger, temper, blaming others, playing the victim, whatever's going on.
	Which again, I sympathize with.
	I'm not above it.
	Nobody is.
	We all have that petty devil in our hearts, but you have to do what your son needs.
	And blaming your wife is only going to drive her further away.
	Taking responsibility might bring her closer.
	Maybe it will inspire her.
	Maybe it won't.
	But you've got to try for the sake of your son.
	You have to put aside your pride and do what is best for your child.
	And there's a great relief in having kids because it's not about you anymore, right?
	It's not just, well, what do I want?
	What's best for me?
	It's just, OK, well, what's best for my kid?
	OK, I'll do that, right?
	And what's best for your kid is for you to try and fix things, and the only way to fix things is to take responsibility.
	Because not taking responsibility for the last eight years got you here, right?
	And not taking full responsibility.
	I'm not saying you don't take any.
	I don't want to make this like black and white binary, but you haven't gone 150% as far as I can tell.
	So it's easy, right?
	It's easy.
	You know, if you're
	Great.
	And that just means surrendering yourself to the moral law.
	Now, I mean, you grew up with a military dad, so I was really struck when you said, well, I had to make a reasonable case to my dad.
	It's like, well, kids don't always make reasonable cases.
	They should still be listened to, and it doesn't mean that they're wrong.
	So your dad, he was a military guy, probably a bit of an authoritarian, and you probably have a little bit of that in you.
	But you just have to put all of that aside and do what's best for your son.
	Taking 150% responsibility is best for your son, no matter what the outcome.
	It's better because it's true.
	It's better because it's honorable.
	It has the best chance of saving your marriage, I think.
	Won't guarantee it because there's free will.
	And unfortunately, your wife is now under the influence more of her parents than she is of you.
	But so, you know, you're,
	On the back foot, as the British used to say, right?
	You're a little off balance, but that's because you didn't recognize a danger in your in-laws for eight years straight or seven or whenever you first really got to know them.
	So you kind of let the in-laws have a disproportionately negative effect on your wife.
	And now they've kind of won at the moment.
	That doesn't mean they've, they've won the battle, not the war.
	But that's the wake-up call, I think, to just grit your teeth, put your ego aside, do what is best for your son, what's best for your marriage, what's best for your future.
	And you're going to have to let go of just wanting to be in the right.
	It just, it doesn't work.
	It just leads you too open to control, manipulation, aggression, escalation.
	You have to let go of wanting to win with people.
	You can win against enemies.
	You can't win against someone you love.
	Because if you win, they lose.
	And love is win-win.
	It has to be, right?
	Wanting to win with someone you love is like wanting to exploit someone you work with.
	It's not honorable.
	It's not right.
	And it can't last.
	So, yeah.
	So that's most of what I wanted to get across.
	What do you think?
	I agree.
	I have to agree.
	You said that really well.
	You're right.
	All right.
	Well, will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	I will.
	Will you then extend an offer to your wife that if she wants to talk, I would be very happy to do that either with you or one on one.
	I'm perfectly happy to do that.
	And I'm also here to do whatever is best for your son and for you guys as a whole.
	So please extend that offer to her.
	If she's interested, I'd be very happy to make the time for that.
	I will.
	I will.
	For sure.
	She knows about you.
	I shared your stuff to her a lot.
	You can tell her that I sided with her a good deal as well.
	Just that might help her.
	Her parents are not welcome, but she is.
	All right.
	Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	Yes, I will.
	All right.
	Thanks, brother.
	I wish you the best of luck.
	I'm sure you'll do very well with this.
	Thank you, and I appreciate you taking my call.
	It means a lot.
	I don't really have many people to talk with, and especially when it's a delicate topic, and I need somebody really insightful, and that's you.
	I appreciate that.
	I'm glad to be of help, and I have my fingers crossed, and I'm sure it'll work out.
	All right.
	Take care, my friend.
	Bye-bye.
	Thank you.
	Bye-bye.

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