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June 27, 2023 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:07:24

5206 "I'm A Stripper and My Boyfriend Won't Commit!" Freedomain Call In

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Time	Text
	Hello, hello, how are you doing?
	I'm OK.
	Very nervous.
	Oh, yes, I can imagine.
	Not super fun stuff to talk about, but I'm sure we can get to someplace positive and functional and healthy and helpful.
	So do you want to start off by just talking about it?
	Would you like to read the emails you sent?
	What's best for you?
	Well, I can read the email, but I don't know.
	I would prefer maybe if you tell me where to start.
	Well, I guess the major issues that are going on in your relationship seems to be the most important thing.
	Was it the eight year relationship that appears to be teetering quite a bit?
	So yeah, what's, what's going on there?
	Yes.
	So we actually, with the guy, we met when I started my job in the strip club.
	Um, when I started, I was still in university, so that's kind of where we started.
	And
	It was all along, it was a long distance relationship.
	So he lives about one hour drive from me.
	And we see each other like two times a week.
	Well, at first it wasn't like, it was committed, but it was not, there was no talk about the future and things like that.
	From both sides, it wasn't like,
	I don't know, we were just not thinking about that stuff.
	And he was a customer at the strip club, is that right?
	Well, he was kind of like a one-time customer.
	He was, well, at least that's what he said to me.
	So, it was just like, I don't know, something like he wanted to try.
	And I believe him, like, he wasn't like a regular guy at the strip club, so.
	Right, right.
	OK, so did you dance for him or was it?
	How did he?
	I mean, I guess a lot of guys who go to strip clubs are attracted to the strippers, but they don't know how to, I guess, get their number or something.
	So how did he approach that?
	So, well, whenever I worked in a club, it was always like the girls approaching the customers most of the time.
	So basically almost like a sales job.
	Like, or, I mean, you could call it that because we would go to the guys and just like talk to them and I guess tell them private dances or have a drink with them, like very expensive drink, and we would get commission from that.
	So I approached him and, well, he was very attractive to me, I guess.
	And I started to talk to him.
	We did go for private.
	Uhm, but then we just like we kept talking and.
	Uhm, he didn't directly ask me for the number like he made me wait for like.
	Like basically like we finished at 6 AM.
	And he was waiting for me outside.
	And because I really liked him, I gave him the number and we met for coffee.
	Sorry, I don't know much about strip clubs, but so you finished at 6 a.m.
	I mean, how long an evening did he have in the strip club?
	Oh, so we probably talked together for about two hours, maybe.
	Yeah, what I can remember.
	Oh, so he came in at 4am?
	That seems like a very late time to go to a strip club.
	I don't know, like what he told me... He had been there for like a couple of hours maybe, so maybe, I don't know, he came in at like midnight or something like that.
	He had told me it was like he had a party with some friends and then
	He wanted to try this like strip club.
	He didn't go with his friends.
	He went alone.
	So.
	Yeah.
	But like where I live, the strip clubs, it's like.
	I don't know how it is in Canada or U.S., but it's like an all night thing.
	So we basically I work from like 8 a.m.
	until 6 a.m.
	Something like that.
	No, no.
	8 p.m.
	8 p.m.?
	Sorry, yes.
	Yeah, I was going to say, that's a long day.
	OK, and just out of curiosity, how did... I mean, I do want to get into the relationship stuff for sure, but if I could get a little bit of your personal background, history, your childhood and so on, I would appreciate that.
	Yes, so it was bad.
	I come from, like, sort of
	Not wealthy, but like a middle class family.
	But, like, from what I can remember from my childhood, like, I have been bullied since, ever since I can remember.
	I'm very socially awkward.
	And basically, from what I can remember, I never really had any, like, good friends.
	Or good relationships.
	Or...
	Well, anything.
	So, well, also we had, like, when I was eight, me and my parents, we moved for four years to another country and I went to school there.
	Also, I was, like, kind of bullied there, but then I made, like, I made some connections there, but then we had to move back to my original country.
	And that was very traumatizing.
	I was very alone and just very sad.
	And I developed an eating disorder from age 13.
	And yeah, I got to the point where I had to be hospitalized.
	I was, yeah, it was very bad.
	I'm so sorry to hear that.
	What was your relationship like with your parents?
	Uh, so I think my mother was very critical of me.
	Like, um, I was never really good enough for her.
	At least that's how she made me feel.
	And my father was kind of avoidant.
	He was when I, he was there when I grew up, but he was just,
	He was there, but not really there.
	I don't know how to say.
	He was very preoccupied with his job.
	He went on a lot of trips for his job, like business trips.
	And they were fighting all the time with my mother.
	So there was not really any peace in the household.
	It was just constant fighting.
	And what were they fighting about?
	Were there any themes?
	Do you think like a lot of times it happens that the dad's working a lot?
	And the wife or the mom feels like you're never here.
	You treat this place like a hotel and she gets lonely, but then she attacks out of loneliness, which makes it even worse.
	Was it anything like that or was it other kind of themes that were going on?
	I'm not so sure because my mom, she also was like a career woman, so she was working at the same time too.
	My mom, I think she's kind of unstable mentally.
	She tends to get hysterical.
	And she had to take care of the household at the same time and at the same time be working.
	So that was a problem.
	Maybe she was just overwhelmed.
	Who took care of you when you were little if your mother was working?
	Well, there was like my grandmother, she took care of us, like me and my brother.
	Yeah, what I can remember, we were always with my grandmother.
	And how did you get along with her?
	Too much, I guess.
	Like, she preferred my brother, so... I felt kind of, like, cast aside.
	And also, she would, like... She would give us a lot of food, so I kind of ended up, you know, a little bit, like, on the fat side.
	And I was bullied for that at school.
	OK, OK.
	Did you do any, like, were you active much as a little kid?
	Did you, like, go to parks and playgrounds and or were you home a lot?
	I was very, like, introverted and shy.
	I did have some activities, but I wasn't too good at it.
	And so, yeah, I wasn't very active.
	Right.
	How long were you overweight for as a child?
	You said you had an eating disorder.
	Was that in your early teens?
	Yes, that was from like 13 until basically until 18.
	So it lasted five years.
	It was like very harsh.
	And how bad was this anorexia?
	How many pounds did you go down to?
	I don't know pounds.
	I know kilos.
	So I went down to about
	42 kilos.
	Oh, wow.
	Okay.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	I was looking really bad, like very scary.
	And how did you, uh, when you were a kid, how were you punished or, or, you know, if you did something sort of quote bad or wrong?
	Hmm.
	Oh, I'm trying to remember.
	So there was like,
	Maybe threats, but it was almost always, like, empty threats, because, like, it would be, like, my mother would say something, you know, to punish us, then you would go to the father, he would change it, or vice versa.
	But we would be, like, sometimes scream that.
	I was never beaten.
	My father, like, he hit me, like, one time, kind of badly.
	But he did, like, apologize for it and... Yeah, they wouldn't beat us.
	And when you were screamed at, what would you be told?
	What was said?
	Really, like, demeaning stuff.
	Like... I don't know, like, not... Not bad words or things like that, but things that would just make you feel bad about yourself.
	Like...
	I can't remember specifically, but just... Is it sort of like, you're useless, you're lazy, you're nothing, nobody likes you?
	I mean, is it that sort of stuff that tries to break down your personality?
	They wouldn't say it directly like this, but explicitly, if you know what I mean, but the feeling
	Or like the meaning of it was, yeah, along those lines, I guess.
	Like you're never good enough.
	You should do this.
	You should do this more.
	You're just never good enough.
	Yeah.
	And did your parents help you with, you said you moved countries for four years and then you moved back and then that's when the eating disorder presented.
	Did your parents,
	Did it help you with social transitions or how to navigate things in school?
	Did you get much feedback on how to deal with all this stuff?
	No.
	At first, I was trying to present as their perfect child, I guess, because I was scared.
	I didn't tell them too much about the bullying.
	I was always trying to...
	I don't know, say like, oh yeah, things are okay, blah blah blah, but it really was not.
	And no, they didn't really intervene or they didn't tell me how to make friends.
	No, there was nothing like that.
	And did you get much advice at all on how to live from your parents?
	No.
	No.
	Even I recently, because I listen to your shows, like, I recently... I talked with my mother about my relationship and I asked her, like, why she never told me how to pick a guy, like, what signs to go for, you know, like, how to vet a guy or something like this.
	And she just told me, like, I don't think that was my job.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Wow.
	I mean, it seems to me that keeping your children safe and pointed them towards happy relationships is pretty important in a parent's job, but maybe your mother didn't feel like she had much credibility given how much she fought with your father.
	I guess that's possible.
	And also, um, when I actually, when I was
	Probably like at my worst in my eating disorder and also my mother was sick with cancer.
	That was like around 15, when I was 15 years old.
	My father just decided to call it quits, just moved out.
	Oh gosh.
	And how did you, did your mother survive?
	Of course, sorry, she did.
	You just talked to her about this.
	My apologies.
	Okay, I'm with you.
	She had cancer for the second time now, so yeah.
	Gosh, I'm sorry to hear that.
	Okay, so then how were your teenage years?
	I mean, I guess you were battling this eating disorder and how did that go for you in terms of school or dating or social life?
	I was extremely isolated, extremely lonely.
	Basically, like, all I had was the internet.
	I didn't really have any social interactions meaningful at that time.
	I kind of went through school, like, you know, because, like, I had a
	I always had doctors like writing me notes and like you know like the teachers would excuse me and also I had an advantage like I was kind of naturally smart like I had a good basis from what I had learned previously like before I got really sick.
	So I managed to get through high school somehow.
	Even though I had this very bad eating disorder and like at times I just wouldn't go to school or if I would go I know I would be bullied so badly that I was just too afraid to go.
	And were you getting bullied for your thinness at this point?
	Yes and also just because
	I guess I would say isolated and weird.
	And I don't know.
	They just would find like any kind of reason to make fun of me.
	Right.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry about that.
	And it is really tragic how the kids who don't have a strong connection at home tend to be the kids who are bullied the most.
	It's really, really awful.
	So I'm really sorry about all of this.
	And the thing is, like,
	It wasn't just like one period of my life.
	It was just almost like ever since I can remember.
	So I don't, I never really made any true friends or, you know, like I never experienced what it's like to like really have a connection and like trust someone and you can rely on them or whatever.
	So.
	Right, right, right.
	So how did you end up overcoming the eating disorder?
	So during my eating disorder I was running a lot.
	Like almost every day I was running like for over an hour outside.
	Every single day.
	And this really had like a bad impact on my joints.
	So I had to stop the running and I started going to a physical therapist.
	And this physical therapist just told me, well, basically, if you want me to help you, you're going to have to start to do something about your weight.
	You're going to have to gain some weight and, you know, start doing like a reasonable activity to put on some muscle as well.
	Um, so my choice kind of was like, um, to try fitness, like weightlifting in a gym.
	Uh, and I wanted to go with like a personal trainer.
	Uh, I asked my father about it because at the time I, I ended up moving in with my father.
	At first he didn't want to pay for the personal trainer but he ended up paying and it was a woman and she really helped me like really helped me to build my body back and to gain back some weight and to Yeah, just to start overcoming the eating disorder so that's
	I think that's what, I don't know if it cured me, but that's what really, really helped.
	And I, I ended up gaining up to like a healthy weight.
	And even then I, I actually, because she was a former bodybuilder, so she made me compete in like, um, a bikini show.
	Yeah.
	Just so that's how.
	Wow, it's amazing, just one kind person in a way, one person who could just make such a difference in your life.
	Oh, totally.
	All right, so you mentioned then that you became a stripper when you were in college, so if you can tell me a little bit about that process.
	So the thing was, like, even when I gained the weight back, I was still very, like, socially awkward and I kind of was feeling like no boys were interested in me.
	I was very insecure about myself.
	And also, another thing probably that I should mention, I did gain the weight back, but
	Let's say my boobs never recovered, so I was extremely insecure about this.
	And, well, because at that time I felt like I had no other choice, or I was never going to attract a partner if I was completely flat chested, I nagged my parents into, like, lending me some money to get my boobs done.
	Did they know that's why they were lending you money, or did you just say you needed it for something?
	No, they knew.
	They ended up helping me with the operation.
	It's a very reasonable amount, a very natural-looking amount, just to basically replace, I guess, what I had lost.
	Sorry to interrupt, I'd never really thought of that, but I suppose if you're starving yourself...
	Puberty and afterwards, it doesn't, does it prevent the accumulation of fatty deposits in your breast area?
	Is that right?
	Uh, yeah, completely.
	Like, uh, I think I had like four, four years where I probably missed my period.
	Oh wow.
	So my hormones were like a wreck, but I, thankfully I got the period back without too, too many exogenous hormones.
	So like,
	Thankfully that recovered, but my breasts didn't recover.
	So yeah, this happened.
	But then, because I didn't know how to get back into socializing and I felt like I was just, you know, everybody, like when I saw the girls in my school, everyone was just going out with boys and
	Boys would have interest in them and I just had no idea how to talk to guys.
	Like, I really had no idea how to talk to anyone.
	I was very shy or, I don't know, just... I couldn't really make eye contact when I was talking to people.
	I was just extremely insecure.
	So... It was just like a random idea.
	I had this friend that I met
	On an online forum, because she was also struggling with an eating disorder, but she wanted to get out of it.
	So I met her and, I don't know, it was like a random idea, we would start doing go-go dancing.
	She actually never went, but I did do like an interview in a club to be a go-go dancer.
	And from go-go dancer, it started, well, it became like stripping basically.
	So a go-go dancer is, I'm sort of thinking back to my distant club days.
	A go-go dancer is a girl who, a woman who dances as part of the show of the nightclub.
	Yeah, something like that.
	So at first I was like go-go dancing then I was like topless dancing and for me it was really like oh my god like finally I'm getting some attention from men like it was um it was
	Like, very validating at that time because I didn't, like, I had actually no idea that, like, I was so insecure that I literally thought, like, no man would ever have interest in me.
	Even though you were in swimsuit competitions that your trainer helped you get into, right?
	Yeah.
	And I kind of, I went on a bad path with this, like, uh,
	I lost my virginity to a guy.
	It wasn't in the club where I was working, but it was like just on a night out with a like a random stranger.
	And I just, yeah, I still felt like extremely insecure about myself.
	I felt like I just had missed a train and I don't know.
	I'm sorry, you had what?
	I just, I felt, I felt like I had, I don't know, missed something, you know, I was like,
	Almost.
	Yeah, I think I was 20 by then.
	And I still was a virgin.
	And like, I felt like it's something that I have to get rid of.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, I was just, yeah, I acted very stupid.
	Well, I mean, you hadn't had anybody really care about you, as far as I can tell in your life.
	Yeah, not too much.
	Well, I mean, I can't teach myself English.
	Somebody has to teach me.
	And to teach yourself to care about yourself, it does require that somebody else put in that effort and find you to be of value.
	And if you don't get that, it's pretty tough to invent that yourself.
	It is like inventing a whole language.
	It's really complicated and tough.
	Yeah, that's really tough.
	And it is, you know, I mean, this is why I said I was so sorry about what happened to you as a child, because it is your parents' job to find value in you.
	And, you know, they chose to have a child, bring a child, keep a child, raise a child.
	And it is their job to take happiness in your presence, to enjoy your company.
	And if they don't, it is really, really tough to find a way to get that later.
	It's not impossible, but it's tough.
	Yeah.
	Well, then just to continue, like I went from this, like,
	Topless dancing into like an actual strip club which has kind of a different system where it's more about like you go and talk to the guys and at that time I was really feeling like it would well I was making money so that was kind of like my first time when I realized okay I can make money with this um but it was also like
	I had to start talking to people and kind of learn to socially interact with people.
	So at the time I felt like this was kind of helping me.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, to go from very shy to being a salesperson in a way, it's, it's pretty wild.
	It's a quite a, quite a transition, but I guess there was good money in it, right?
	Oh yes, yes.
	Like within like the first year or so I really, I realized like I can actually earn enough money just to buy an apartment, you know.
	So yeah.
	Wow.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So, uh, was it at this place that you were doing the stripping?
	Was it at this place that you met your current boyfriend?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	So, and that's the night that he came in around midnight on his own and then left at 6 a.m., waited for you outside and got your number that way?
	Yes, yes.
	And what were you taking in university?
	Economics.
	Ah, all right.
	And did you finish that or did you move more into the stripping world?
	So, I finished my bachelor's degree, but for me it was kind of, it was very boring.
	I was so
	Well, because I was working like three times a week and doing three times like full-on night shift and just prioritizing the stripping job, I just didn't manage to make any friends in university.
	I was just like, I barely made it.
	But I did.
	I did get a bachelor's degree.
	Righto.
	And what happened then?
	I'm sorry, tell me a little bit about the start of your relationship with this fellow.
	Can we just call him Bob?
	I'm sure that's not even close to his name, but let's just call him Bob.
	And how did the relationship progress with Bob?
	So, well, basically we were meeting, like, he was driving about one hour to where I live, and every time we were meeting, like, but
	Like I said, it was... I don't know.
	It was just the fun kind of part.
	Like, we were going out.
	Like, we were going to movies to do fun stuff.
	But... I don't know.
	I think we really liked each other.
	And about six months into the relationship, he told me he loved me.
	I said I loved him back.
	And...
	Yeah, we just kind of, we kept it that way and he lives with his parents up until this day.
	And he has a job like, well, where he lives.
	So that was, I don't know if it was the reason we never really moved in together.
	Yeah, we just kept it like that for the first four years.
	We were not talking about any kind of future together.
	It was just... Sorry, the first four years you didn't talk about the future together?
	And were you still doing three nights a week after you graduated or did you do more?
	Yeah, no, I went into it like full-time.
	So like...
	And I changed clubs, so I went into a much more popular club.
	So I went like full-time into it and at that point I have to admit I was just actually chasing money.
	And I assume you were making a fair amount more than your boyfriend at this point?
	Yes, but I was
	I was quite successfully hiding it from him.
	I never... Which I guess it added up to his confusion, like, why am I staying there?
	Like, if I have a bachelor's degree, like, why am I still doing this, like, stupid work?
	So, yeah, but I was, like, and I still am making more money than him.
	But for me, it was never, you know, I was realizing that this was just something that wasn't going to continue.
	It was like, I wasn't one of these, like, I read the comments yesterday, the day before.
	It wasn't some kind of delusion, like, oh, I think this is my real value because I'm actually worth this money on the market.
	I knew the reality, like, I was just making absurd amounts of money for, I don't know, I guess, being a little bit pretty and talking to people and just... And people getting... Of course, like, there's a bad side to it, like, the guys get drunk, they're creepy, you know, they just...
	Yeah.
	But I never had this delusion like, oh, I actually want a guy who is going to make even more money than me stripping, you know?
	Yeah.
	And why did you hide your income?
	I was kind of scared he would think that I'm doing more than stripping, you know?
	Oh, I see.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And I thought it would just, I don't know, I think it would just be better to hide it from him or maybe that he would feel like insecure about him making less money than me.
	I just, I just thought, I don't know, maybe it's better just not to tell him.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Did he not get any sign of it?
	I mean, did you not have a nice car or?
	A nice place to live or, I mean, to hide it, you just like, did you not spend it?
	Is that the thing?
	Yeah, I didn't really spend it.
	And also because, so first, I don't drive.
	I never got my driver's license.
	So I didn't have a car.
	And also because I come from this like middle class family and we spent those, we spent four years in Switzerland.
	Both my parents like made quite a lot of money and they invested into some apartment Apartments in the city where I live So I actually got an apartment.
	Well, I only pay the utilities because that's my mother's apartment so actually my boyfriend thought at the time that I was being just lazy and just
	Reluctant to move on with my career because I was secured by my parents.
	That makes sense.
	Yeah.
	At least that's what he's telling me.
	When we talk about it now,
	Yeah, you got everything from your parents, so you don't have to do anything with your life.
	And he was like the opposite.
	Actually, he's an immigrant.
	His family are immigrants to this country.
	So basically, he came from nothing.
	And they were very poor growing up, so he had to build himself up.
	And he really prides himself on that.
	Right, OK.
	And what do he and your parents, or what did they think about you staying in the stripping world?
	Well, my parents kind of... They're not too happy about it, but they're sort of like, OK, it's your life, we cannot tell you what to do.
	So...
	They just, well, they just didn't, like, talk about it too much.
	They would just say, OK, maybe you should move somewhere else, but, you know, with your life.
	And him, he was like, at the beginning, I think he was sort of OK with it.
	Like, I don't know, he never really said, like,
	Okay, like, we're in a relationship, you need to leave... You need to leave the club.
	At some point, he would be like... Actually, when I was making the decision to go into stripping full-time, I asked him about it, and I asked him whether he was willing to stay with me even though I would be a full-time dancer, and his answer was yes.
	So I thought it wasn't, like, I knew he wasn't going to be, like, too happy about it, but I thought it wasn't, like, a major, major issue for him.
	But he did, like, looking back, he did express that, you know, OK, maybe you could change, maybe you could do something else, but it was never, like, really, um, decisive, you know?
	I don't know how to say.
	Right, right.
	OK.
	And you don't have to tell me the country, but what area in the world did he immigrate from?
	I'm just curious if there's some sort of cultural or value system that I might know a little better.
	Ukraine.
	Got it.
	OK.
	All right.
	So for the first four years, you had fun, right?
	And maybe a little travel and all of that.
	And was there something that changed after four years?
	So, I have to tell just one thing, like, during the whole, like, since the beginning of the relationship, I was actually the one who didn't feel completely secure about him, because he always felt like this mysterious guy, and he's extremely good-looking.
	And also he would like, at first when we started talking, we were like messaging on Facebook, on the app, like Messenger, but he wouldn't actually add me on his Facebook.
	And I felt like, like, oh my God, why are you doing this?
	What are you hiding?
	And I don't know, I felt, because I had those like inner insecurities, maybe, I always felt like extremely unsafe.
	Like he would cheat on me.
	He would be talking to other girls or he would have like a second relationship or things like that.
	And sometimes he would just, because I was very busy, like on weekends and things, so he would go on trips alone.
	In the second year of the relationship, he left to visit LA for two weeks, just on his own.
	Which I wasn't happy about, but you know, like, what can I do?
	Yeah, so I was not feeling secure and sometimes I would have this like... I would be overly jealous and I would tell him... I don't know, things like he kept contact with his... ex?
	There is the sort of minor issue that
	You were showing your body to strangers for money.
	I know.
	So, I mean, I'm just trying to sort of process this, this jealousy thing, like that he might be, um, he might be interested in, I mean, you're staying in the same environment where you met him and ended up dating him and you're, you know, obviously taking money from strangers to show your, your body.
	And,
	I'm just sort of trying to figure out, did you have any conversations about that?
	Like, it seems, it seems a bit, I can, I can understand where it's coming from, but it seems a bit surprising that you might feel jealous of, of him or his relationships.
	Uh, you're right.
	Like it's, it's, um, I realize that it's a hypocrisy from my part.
	I really, yes.
	I wouldn't put a moral judgment on it as yet.
	I'm just.
	I mean, did he ever express jealousy at your occupation, or say, you know, well, if you're showing your body for strangers, then I can keep in touch with exes, or something like that?
	So, he never expressed jealousy, like, never, ever.
	Well, now that the conflict escalated to where it got now,
	He's openly telling me like, OK, but you're just willing to, like, basically show everything for money.
	So, like, why did you have remarks?
	But at that time, when I guess I was starting with that, he just probably didn't have the courage to tell me.
	And I mean, it's hard to know, of course, but I wonder if at some point, you know,
	Eight minus years ago.
	If at some point he'd said, you know, this is, this is, this has got to stop.
	I mean, if we're going to have a serious monogamous relationship, you have to find some other way to make money than showing your boobs and butt to guys.
	Right?
	So his argument is that I was supposed to figure that out on my own.
	No.
	Yeah.
	But I'm curious if he had said that back in the day.
	Uh, I wonder what you might've said in return.
	Like if he just said, listen, I want to be with you, but this can't be, this can't be the job.
	Um, so I think looking back, like if he were, if it was, if it was like, okay, I'm willing to commit to you and live with you together and move this like towards the direction of a marriage.
	I would have said, okay, but you know, not for, not for like a long distance relationship, I guess.
	At that time, it didn't make sense to me.
	Like, okay, like we're not living together anyway.
	You're not really actually committing to me anyway.
	We still have like, you know, at that time, like I felt like I have, I have time and
	To be honest, before I really started listening to your show, I wasn't even really sure that I wanted to have kids and family because I almost was always scared.
	I don't want to end up like my parents.
	Well, yeah, I mean, if you don't have an enjoyable childhood, then it's tough to really want to be a parent, right?
	Like, why would I want to bring somebody else into this veil of tears, so to speak?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so for the first four years, things are going fairly well, but there's not really any talk of the future, is that right?
	Exactly.
	And then what?
	Then we actually went on a trip to his country of origin to, like, kind of see how it is.
	And he wanted to show me, but we had this, like, we started to have disagreements because
	He didn't want to be intimate with me.
	Things were lacking in that way for me.
	I would let him know, but he would just always find excuses of why he wouldn't be intimate with me.
	I remember there was this one kind of argument when we were there in Ukraine.
	Um, when he told me, I'm actually not sure about our future together.
	And at the time it kind of, this kind of broke me, but I, I just overlooked it.
	And I thought, okay, well, he's not, he actually doesn't mean it.
	I don't know.
	And he would still say like, I love you, and he would still be with me.
	So I told him like, you really hurt me when you said that, but yeah.
	That was, I don't know, for me it was like kind of a turning point where I was really becoming unsure of the relationship.
	And what reasons did he give for doubting the relationship?
	Oh, so he said, uh, at that time it was, he didn't feel like I'm financially secure and that like basically his arguments that I'm getting everything from my parents and I'm just really being lazy with my life.
	I don't, I'm not going anywhere.
	And he's, he's very like career oriented.
	So I told him, OK, that's like I'm never going to be this way.
	I'm not career oriented.
	I just when I want to work, that's what I use.
	I think I want to work in order to live, not live in order to work.
	Because I mean, you've seen what that did to your parents, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	So I kind of used that and he would just
	Yeah, he used it against me.
	And he just labeled me as, like, this kind of, like, lazy, procrastinating, you know, just... Yeah.
	And just out of curiosity, you said you went full-time as a stripper, so how many hours a week were you working at this point?
	At least 40 to 50 hours.
	And that is just like the time that I would spend in the club.
	But, you know, not counting the hours that I would need to get ready.
	And, you know, you have to like keep a diet and go to the gym, take care of yourself, things like that.
	Yeah, so it's a job and a half almost, right?
	Yeah.
	I have to say I was really, really prioritising the
	The dancing over the stripping over the like actually being present in the relationship.
	What do you mean by that?
	Well, you know, like so if you say like a normal couple, you know, you go on weekends together, you have a free time in the evening together.
	And we had that like from time to time.
	But we just didn't, like because of my job, we just didn't spend that much time together.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	That makes sense.
	Uh, okay.
	And so it's funny because at around four years, I mean, there's something that happens in a lot of relationships around four years, which is where sort of deep down, you know, the passage of time kind of kicks in.
	And you say, OK, well, if I want to have kids or I want to get married, is this relationship going to be the one?
	And that may have been kicking him, kicking in for him as well.
	Just saying.
	Yes.
	Where are we going?
	You know, because you start to get a sense of your own, you know, you're not going to live forever.
	And, you know, that sort of teenage live in the moment stuff begins to fall away.
	So maybe that was happening for him.
	I'm not so sure, but it definitely around the
	Around that time and maybe like this fourth, fifth year, it definitely kicked for me.
	And I, at that time, I was also realizing that I actually want to have a family.
	Um, and I was like, okay, well, you know, like I'm not making all this money just to spend it on myself.
	Like I don't spend too much money anyways.
	Um, so
	Well, at least, like, I can use this, what I make, you know, to give a better life to my kid or, you know, just to have, like, some buffer or if anything happens.
	And I was actually the one who, you know, I started kind of like, I don't know, nagging him.
	I was like, OK, well, you know, at that point we started, like,
	I don't know, maybe around year four and a half, things like that.
	I started asking him, OK, do you want a family?
	Do you want a child?
	Would you like to, like, be with me together to have a family?
	And he answered yes to all these questions.
	And so I started kind of, you know,
	At first, subtly, and then not so subtly, telling him that, you know, maybe he should make some kind of commitment to me.
	As in, engagement.
	Right.
	And did he know that this was, I guess maybe from the earlier conversations, that this was one of the things that might get you to stop stripping?
	No.
	No.
	It was not like that kind of deal, but... But I feel like from when I started to kind of pressuring him into this commitment, the relationship just started going very, very badly.
	The fights were more frequent and he just... I don't know.
	Almost, I feel like he wanted me to feel very insecure in the relationship.
	He was very, like, avoidant.
	He would never... I would always have to text him.
	He would never text me first.
	I almost felt like, you know, because we were not living together, I almost felt like, OK, if I don't chase him, like, are you going to come over like today or whatever?
	He would actually never come over.
	He would actually never see me ever.
	So at that time I started feeling like I almost had to chase him.
	But I still wanted to be with him.
	Yeah, and I still felt like he was the one who was going to be like the father of my child.
	Yeah.
	And what is it that you love about him or admire about him?
	So I think he's very driven, ambitious.
	I think he's courageous.
	Well, I would have said like, you know, a couple of weeks ago, I would have said he's honest, but because of what happened the last few weeks, because he made this like very serious commitment to me, and now he's saying
	Okay, well, I'm not so sure then I feel and at the same time we wouldn't like actually break up with me I Feel like there's a huge dishonesty Right, so what did happen over the last two weeks?
	So he started me okay, so I Mmm
	At the beginning of this year, I realized, okay, at some point we actually have to start living together.
	And so I kind of started pressuring, again, pressuring him into moving in.
	I mean, I know it's only an hour, but you've been kind of long distance, not just in terms of space, but in terms of time, because you're working nights, he's working days and so on.
	So you haven't had much of a chance to see each other in the way that you would expect for, you know, more average couples.
	And that's been going on for like eight years, right?
	Yeah.
	And at this point I was, I was, you know, I was fully aware that, okay, like if I'm actually going to be serious about this, like I have to let go of my job at some point.
	Like I, my idea was I would do it kind of gradually.
	Uh, and that way, you know, I would have time and space to find something else that wouldn't be like just completely boring or that would be,
	At least, you know, something that would be of interest to me.
	So, yes, that was my idea.
	It's tough to make that transition though, right?
	Because when you hand out your resume, I mean, what do you say, right?
	Yes, it's tough.
	It's like, I know it's going to be tough.
	I know I have to make the transition anyways, because I don't want to be there until like I'm 40 or whatever, because that's just... I've seen the girls and it's just, it's not a great look.
	Right.
	And they're like, they're messed up.
	Yeah, most of them.
	There's a few very rare exceptions, but most of them are quite messed up.
	So I've been procrastinating to make the transition that's on me.
	And also there was like COVID, you know, so we had
	Like, three years it was, like, shut down on and off, and it was just... Yeah, it kind of, like, slowed me down, I think.
	And also, like, I had at that point, like, I had made some, like, investment goals for myself, so I just was, like, very strong-headed on reaching those goals.
	So, I don't know, that's all kind of the reasons for me, like, why I kept putting it off to make the transition.
	But, well, this year I realized, OK, this relationship is very important for me.
	I want to have a family.
	I want to be with this guy.
	So, OK, let's just move things forward.
	And, well, he was like, OK, well, you have to, like, I cannot be with you.
	You're doing, like, nights.
	Sorry, when he said he can't be with you he means like we can't live together, we can't get married?
	Yeah.
	Did he mean like I can't be with you even if like we're breaking up?
	At the time it was more like the night shifts.
	It was that's what I felt bothered him the most regarding living with me.
	Right.
	So I told him okay I'm gonna at first I'm going to scale it off and
	Give me like one year to come live with me still because I want to try how it is like to live with you if we can actually work together, you know and Give me one year and I will make the transition to find a new job Sorry, did you want to move in with him relatively soon and then spend a year transitioning out of stripping?
	Is that right?
	Yeah, that was my first idea, yes.
	But, I mean, even if you're just working, say, two nights a week as a stripper, you're still nocturnal, right?
	I mean, you can't switch back and forth from staying up nights to staying up days.
	I mean, I'm sorry, I'm sure I'm missing something, but that would be my first thought.
	Well, actually, typically on my days off, that's what I do.
	Like, I would just, when I have a day off, I
	I stay up during the day.
	Oh, okay.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	So I, I do sort of, I, I have to admit I am tired from this, but I do kind of switch back and forth if I need to.
	So I don't, I don't stay up the whole night, like staying in my apartment.
	Um, yeah, so he,
	It was already in like a fight and he was already telling me like, OK, well, you should have, if you're actually serious about the relationship, you should have done this a long time ago.
	But he agreed to it.
	He said yes.
	He said he would move in.
	Sorry, he would move in with you?
	Yes.
	Into my apartment, which is like still like one hour drive from where he works.
	But then that kind of like, you know, we like fixed on a date and it just wasn't happening.
	And he was like, you know, he said he was moving in, but he just like, he moved like a couple of things.
	Like basically he's not, he was never actually living with me.
	He was still like, uh, half and half, like living with his parents at home.
	And half living with me, like, it just didn't make sense.
	And I'm sorry, I forgot to ask, how do you get along with his parents?
	So, not too good.
	Like, I've seen them two times in my life.
	And he has also like a very traumatized childhood.
	His father was an alcoholic.
	He was quite violent.
	His mother is like has a child which is his like half brother from another I'm not sure if marriage or relationship and then she has she has him together with his ex-alcoholic father and yeah there was he he told me like there were constant like
	Fights and aggression and yeah, he has a very bad childhood, but he doesn't want to confront it.
	Oh, okay.
	So he's not done any therapy or self work or anything about this childhood?
	No, none at all.
	And when I actually like listened to a couple of shows from your calls when he was present,
	And he actually really criticized me over that.
	Like, you know, like you shouldn't be listening to this.
	Like, I don't want any more trauma in my life.
	And you are so obsessed with these kind of things.
	Yeah.
	So he criticized me over this.
	So I think he doesn't want to confront what happened to him.
	Well, I mean, can I go out on a limb here and say that your father was also very good looking?
	Hmm.
	My father, well, I think when he was young, like when he got married to my mother, like my mother was way better looking than him.
	And my father was this kind of like, he's not too tall and he's like slim and so not that much.
	But then, you know, with the age, my father aged really well.
	So I guess, I don't know, when he was around in his 40s, 50s, my father started to be the one who's very good looking, if that's a good explanation.
	And they're not at all the same type.
	My boyfriend is very muscular, goes to the gym, he's very obsessed with his physique.
	Right, but I mean in terms of your father was very verbally critical and it sounds a little bit like your boyfriend is that way as well.
	My father wasn't, well he was critical but it was more like I think my mom was worse than him in terms of being critical.
	Like I was never good enough and things like that.
	Right, okay, okay.
	So you had the conversation about living together two weeks ago but he's not
	Done much to move in, and what else has happened?
	Also, he, like, for the past... No, we had the conversation.
	It's been going on for, like, I don't know, four months?
	Probably, like, yeah.
	Since the beginning of the year, so five, six months.
	And since then, he hasn't done much, despite him agreeing to what we agreed to.
	And also he just, the conflict started like escalating to the point where he's almost, not violent, but he screams at me and he criticizes basically every point of my being.
	Like, I was open about the issues that I had in the past with the eating disorder and he says, well, I'm very scared that you would pass on
	This eating disorder to the kids and Also, I have a I have a tattoo that I had since I was 18 years old that was like when I was very depressed and I was going through this like messy kind of stage of my life and The tattoo says it's better to burn out than to fade away that's a quote from
	Well, originally it's from a song, but Kurt Cobain used it in his final letters, so it's kind of depressing.
	That's a Neil Young song, I think, but yeah, okay.
	So, well, I've had it.
	I've talked about, you know, well, I don't like it anymore.
	It looks bad.
	I don't know what to do about it.
	I'm not sure if I want to get it removed, because I'm not sure if it's safe to get it removed.
	I talked about, like, doing something with, and he just started being very critical of this, like, you have this bullshit thing on your arm, like, that's just the way that you view the world and, yeah, just everything.
	And he talked about his two friends, they both have
	girlfriends which are working in like dentistry something like this and he started telling me oh well you know I'd much rather have a girlfriend that is uh working in such a field and is kind of inspiring that way and you're just never going to be that what else he told me like yeah just extremely critical of anything
	That does remind me of your mom in particular, if I remember that story correctly.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And this has been going on in particular over the last two weeks.
	And is there anything that happened more immediately that had you send me the email?
	Uh, yes.
	So actually this has been going on for like the worst part was going on for the past couple of months.
	Um, and well, two weeks ago he was still kind of half living here.
	And he was coming home very late for, like, no reason.
	He didn't want to tell me why.
	And sometimes he would just come here and then not come here.
	He would never tell me ahead, like, I'm going to be here or I'm not going to be here.
	And I was just very confused.
	Like, why are you doing this?
	We agreed to something.
	Like, why can you not just keep your word?
	So I started speaking with him and he, again, he started escalating and he told me this thing, I'm actually not sure I want to be with you in the future.
	I'm actually not sure what I feel, how I feel about you.
	I don't know if I love you anymore.
	At this point, like, I was still extremely, like, attached to him.
	So I started, like, begging him, like, please, we can make this right, like,
	I had arranged therapy, like, prior to this discussion.
	But, like, we were... He agreed to go to the therapy.
	But then he was like, I'm not sure about any of this.
	And... I think... Oh, he said something like, I cannot look at you anymore.
	And he just... He just left and...
	He told me we would just see each other in the therapy session.
	And so... So, yeah, since then, I basically, I felt like he was actually breaking up with me because for me, like, if he tells me now he doesn't want to have a future with me, like, what sense does it make to keep this relationship?
	Because I really believed we had a future together.
	Hmm.
	So I went through this kind of phase where I was just having extreme depression, almost like panic attacks.
	And I just felt like, OK, this is all my fault.
	Also, he refuses to take blame in anything of the relationship.
	He just says, oh, it's all your fault.
	And when I ask him, do you think you made any mistakes, he says, no, I don't think I actually
	Did anything much too wrong?
	It's like all you.
	You are the bad one.
	You are the one who is a stripper.
	We can go and ask anyone outside like if they would be with a stripper and things like this.
	So yeah, this happened actually exactly two weeks ago.
	He just like left.
	And.
	On Monday we had the
	this therapy session with a guy this Monday, this week.
	So we kind of talked about the whole relationship and at that point he still says like, I'm not sure about our future together.
	And so I said, but he says,
	Okay, well, you know, do you want to plan out some more therapy sessions?
	And so I said, I'm not sure if this is making any sense.
	Because for me, it's either we are working towards having a future together.
	And we can go through this, this therapy sessions, or we just have to break up and
	You know, because I don't want to be, like, strung along for any longer, because I feel like he's... I'm not sure if he's committed to me, actually, so... Well, it sounds like he's not, insofar as he says that he doesn't know what the future is.
	And also, as far as the engagement goes, like, that was very bad.
	He basically like the day prior to the engagement, he just fought me, fought with me really harshly.
	And he was, again, he was being very critical.
	Then he actually, well, he did propose in a way, but, um, it was just like, Oh, sorry.
	When did he propose?
	Um, that was almost a year ago.
	Oh, gosh.
	OK, let's skip over that one a little, but unless I missed it.
	Yeah, so he actually, he ended up doing it, but looking back, it's probably because I, I don't know, I forced him.
	I don't know.
	And do you have any idea where he goes when he's not around?
	Hmm.
	Well, I have suspicions.
	You know, that's a problem.
	He says he's, well, where he lives is with his, like, it's actually quite small apartment with his parents.
	So he has his room there and he's over 30.
	So it's like, I don't know why he still wants to live there.
	And I think he's making enough money to move out.
	Like, I just, I don't understand it.
	Um, so he says he spends most of his time there and he like, he's quote unquote, he's working on his career when he's not actually at work.
	He's working on like, you know, um, bettering himself or whatever.
	But I'm not sure exactly what he's doing.
	And he goes to the gym a lot, that I know.
	And other than that, I have no idea.
	Right.
	That's a problem.
	That's what makes me very suspicious.
	Like, why?
	Like, where is he?
	And how do things stand at the moment?
	Yeah.
	Again, we decided... Because now, after the therapy session, I was very confused, very unsure on what to do.
	He also told me, like, I don't want to waste your time if you feel like, you know, like you're under pressure.
	He doesn't want to waste my time, so that would mean like, okay, we're not meant to end up together, so he wouldn't want to waste my time.
	Now he's on a business trip to Germany, and when he comes back, we're supposed to talk, but the thing is, I'm not actually, like, I have no idea how to predict what he is going to tell me, whether he actually
	wants to break up with me or whether he wants to do some more therapy or I have no clue like at this point of what he wants to do and I think what he's telling me like he doesn't know either so it's like yeah I'm extremely confused
	Right.
	No, I understand that.
	I understand that.
	And what do you want?
	Um, I don't want to be with a guy who's not committed to me because I have this fear of being abandoned.
	Just like, you know, basically my father walked away from my mother.
	For reasons I can understand, but he did, so I have this fear inside me, and I have this fear of, like, just ending up with the wrong person and just everything going wrong.
	So... At this point, like, I realize it's going to be very difficult for me, like, to date, because... Um...
	I'm 29 and I have no idea how it is like to date, actually.
	And I have no idea how I would get a guy.
	And I want to quit stripping either way, so... But still, I don't know how I could find someone to actually settle down with.
	So...
	Um, but still, I don't want to lock, like, force lock him down as a last option for me.
	And I think still, if it was that case for him, that he's just stringing me along, that he would, like, just end up not marrying me, or he would just not want to have a child.
	And he would just end up leaving me anyways, if he actually is not fully into it.
	Right.
	And then you have maybe a kid or two and then maybe you have to date then, right?
	Which would be even more challenging.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	But his thing is, he's very controlling over like the sexuals, not controlling, but he, so
	We use protection.
	He uses protection on his side.
	So that's like completely his choice whether he actually would have a kid with me or not.
	So I'm actually like one of my fear is that when the time comes, which is going to be very soon, that I will tell him, OK, come on, like we should have a child.
	That he would actually not want to do it.
	Or he would find some excuses, or just leave, or... I don't know.
	I don't know, because I'm really... Like I said, since he has been acting so, so inconsistently, and more and more and more during the relationship, I just, I have no way to rely on his words, on what he wants.
	And like I said, I don't know if like tomorrow he's going to call me and tell me, OK, we're breaking up.
	Like it's just like it could be like 50 50, you know, or just like one day he would just leave.
	Right, right.
	And this, of course, is after eight years.
	Yes.
	So so at this point, you know, like
	If he doesn't know now whether he wants to be with me, like, he'll never know.
	Yeah, I mean, one of the ugliest things he said is, if I remember rightly, I can't stand to look at you or I can't bear to look at you.
	Yeah, yeah, that's basically, well, he said it like we can't look at each other or something like this, but yeah.
	Yeah, that was something like that.
	And also he like screams at me, like,
	Very, in a very demeaning way regarding, you know, like you're working through shitholes, you're working in a shithole, so you're like associating with this kind of like low rent and trashy people, like you're actually... He met and picked up a stripper.
	I mean, I'm sorry, I'm not sure how he's magically excluding himself from this category.
	Uh, yeah, like I said, he doesn't take any, any responsibility.
	He just... Which means probably, I mean, almost certainly that he's not going to change, right?
	Uh, I'm afraid actually we, if even if we go through the therapy sessions, that it will be very hard for him to change.
	No, no, no.
	Sorry.
	It's hard for everyone to change, but he's not even admitting any fault or responsibility, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So that means he's not going to change.
	Yeah.
	That's my reasoning.
	That is my reasoning too.
	Has over the course of the eight, has he, is he taking less responsibility now than he did in the past?
	Or has he always avoided taking responsibility for
	His side of the relationship.
	So looking back, if he was to ever apologize for something, I would have to kind of get it out of him.
	I would have to tell him, OK, look, you did this really wrong and it hurt me.
	And we would kind of go back and forth about it.
	And then he would maybe apologize.
	Um, yeah, it's, it's worse now for sure, but it was almost always like this.
	I mean, if I, let's take an analogy here, cause I know this is very personal, so it's hard to see it sometimes objectively, but let's suppose that you and I were friends and I decided that I wanted to take up the violin, right?
	It's a pretty tough instrument to play.
	Now, if after eight years of practicing the violin, I was worse off than when I started, I was worse at playing the violin than when I started, what would you suggest for me to do?
	To quit?
	No, no, no, but it could turn around any day now.
	I could be fantastic at the violin any day now.
	I just have to be patient.
	I just, you know what?
	I need to get some more lessons.
	Yeah, no.
	And what would your reasoning be?
	I mean, you've been trying for eight years.
	And it's worse now than when I started.
	I mean, your relationship is worse now than when you started, right?
	True, yes.
	So you've had eight years, and it's worse now than when you started.
	Yes.
	Like, way worse.
	Yeah, way worse, right?
	I mean, the first four years you said were quite a lot of fun, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Right.
	So for me also, um, I don't know, maybe that's one of the reasons I'm extremely like very, like holding on to him because for me it was like this first experience ever of actual love and connection or what it seemed like that I had someone that I could trust.
	Or have a connection with, I don't know.
	So for me, it's very hard to let it go.
	Yeah.
	Of course.
	Look, I understand that.
	I mean, I had a lengthy relationship in my, in my twenties, so I know that it's not, not an easy thing to deal with.
	And I sympathize with that.
	I really do.
	Okay.
	So if he were on the call now and I would ask him, what do you most admire about
	Your girlfriend, what do you love about her?
	What do you think he would say?
	Oh, I actually asked him.
	And he was, yeah, that's not good.
	He, he was, he did say something like, oh, you know, you did brave things in your life.
	You overcame this, you overcame that.
	And I see there is a good person inside you.
	Yeah, and you're cute.
	Right.
	That's kind of what he said.
	So that's very weak.
	That's not weird.
	Like, you know, it's not love.
	Right.
	I mean, you're both attractive people, right?
	I think you said he was handsome.
	You're attractive enough to be a stripper.
	So is there not... Was there a certain amount of vanity and lust and we look great together early in the relationship?
	Along with the fun as well.
	Oh, yes.
	Yes, for sure.
	And also, I do realize, like, I'm going to lose my looks quite soon.
	Already I'm wearing glasses, which I didn't used to before.
	And just, you know, like, I cannot keep this up forever, but he can.
	Like, he still has, you know, amazing hair.
	And like I said, he goes to the gym every day and like... Well, he could be like your dad, get even better looking with age, right?
	Like, I'm absolutely actually convinced he will.
	So So he will have like many many options Yeah, which is kind of scary Right.
	So is it right that you feel like your options are diminishing and his are expanding?
	Oh, yes, right and and given that your career is your looks then It's not just romantically but in terms of income and your job, right?
	Yes, but
	Like, you know, whenever I quit this stripping, I will not be making a lot of money.
	I want to do a job that is, you know, decent, but I know that I have missed this, like, basically nine years in my resume, so I know that I'm not gonna
	You know, make a substantial amount of money compared to him at all.
	And you'd probably have to do something entrepreneurial.
	I'm trying to figure it out.
	Like now, like I'm thinking maybe I can take some IT courses, you know, maybe start something with that.
	Or a lot of girls, like when they finish this kind of job, they go into like, I don't know, doing cosmetic stuff, like doing nails.
	But yeah.
	I'm trying to figure it out, like, I'm looking for all possible ways, like, how, what to do, you know.
	Right, right, right, right.
	Right.
	So, is there more that you wanted to add?
	Yes.
	So, well, because I think there's, like, an extremely slim chance of this working out,
	With my boyfriend, so I don't know if you think it's better just to cut it off now or just to try further and risk getting even more hurt?
	But you said he's also getting angrier too, right?
	Oh yes.
	Yeah, so I mean there could be some risk involved as well.
	Like he never hit me, he never like did things like that, but he's screaming very, very aggressively.
	Right, right.
	Right, I mean, given he knows that about your history, that you were screamed at as a child, and so he's pushing that button, that big red button that we all have, right?
	Yeah, and he was screamed at too, so I guess that's his way, like, that's what he knows, so that's what he does.
	And he actually, when I confronted him, like, you cannot scream at me like this, because that's just very unhealthy, and you make me go, you know, into this, like, you make me want to crawl in, like, a little ball and just cry.
	And at that point, we just cannot have any kind of argument because I'm just completely shut down and just scared of you, basically.
	He says, OK, well, you know, I had worse in my family.
	So screaming is not that bad.
	So that's what he said.
	So he isn't even making a commitment to not do that?
	No, no.
	So look, I can't tell you what to do, obviously.
	I don't know.
	But I would say that
	Being with someone in the hopes that they're going to change fundamentally when they're not acknowledging that there's even a problem is probably not wise.
	The thing is, like, I acknowledge that he wants me to change as well and I kind of have the motivation to change and I was so, like,
	So, like, hung up on things, you know, going well, that I just told him, OK, I'm going to change, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do the things that he wants.
	But it's just, like, it's really bottomless.
	Like, I have no idea if he will actually, you know, even... Like, whenever I do change, I don't know if he will actually want to come with me, like, then.
	Yeah, so...
	And so you're saying that he asked you for changes maybe like the quitting stripping and you haven't made those changes?
	So he asked me like now he asked me like by now he asked me like definitely and you know we agreed on something but he still said like oh it's not good enough for me and just yeah just everything in my life he wants me to change.
	I'm not sure if I can do that.
	And he even said something like, um, I want to change the complete, like who you are, like you would have to change that.
	So he's not going to listen to things like, don't scream at me, but he wants you to change everything about who you are.
	Oh, yes.
	Yes.
	That's what you can't do, obviously.
	No, no.
	And especially I can't go back into the past, you know, and
	Like, he told me, like, you should have done this much earlier, like, the transition from your job.
	Like, I can't, from now, I can't go back into the past and do it, you know?
	It's just, like, impossible.
	But you would have done it, if I remember rightly, you would have done it, or would be more likely to do it, if he had committed to you, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, it's still your responsibility for being in the stripping world,
	But he could have helped that to some degree by committing more.
	I think so, yes.
	So it's kind of like a chicken and an egg thing where he might say, well, I'm not going to commit to you because you're still a stripper and you say, well, I'm still a stripper because you're not committing to me, right?
	Yes, exactly.
	Right.
	And have you done any personal therapy over the years?
	I have and I want to because
	My issue, like big issue, is I think low self-esteem, which is even lower now after this, what happened with him.
	So I did do some therapy, which was, I'm not sure if he was actually the right therapist, because it wasn't like talk therapy.
	It was very like metaphorical.
	I don't know how it's called, but it was more kind of a
	way of using metaphors and images to process your emotions.
	It sounds almost like Jungian therapy or something like that.
	Okay.
	Possibly.
	Okay.
	But I would like to do some talk therapy because I realize this is just not enough for me.
	It's not deep enough.
	I need to, you know, talk through some issues in the past.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So if your boyfriend doesn't change, do you want him?
	No.
	No.
	Right.
	Yeah, because you said, I don't know if things are going to work out or not.
	Relationships don't work out.
	I mean, they're not, then it's not that way.
	It's, you know, two people are making decisions.
	Now, if he says, I'm not going to change and you don't want him the way he is, that may be the answer.
	You know, because then the thing is, he is always like... I don't know, he says something else every time.
	You know, when we went to the couple therapy session, he was like, OK, yes, I want to work on things and, you know, I want to admit some of my mistakes.
	But, you know, what he says to the therapist is just...
	The complete opposite of what he has been telling me for like a long time now.
	Right.
	So you would accept what he tells you and you would also, somebody says they want to change.
	A desire is not a plan.
	Like if I say I want to lose weight and I just keep eating and not exercising, then I clearly don't really want to lose weight.
	I just want, I just want to say it like I don't actually want to do it.
	So we, we measure people by how they act, not by what they say.
	And love is based on actions.
	We don't fall in love with anybody who says, Oh, I'm a good person.
	Right.
	Cause that's just something they say any more than, you know, you, you wouldn't, if you were a band, you wouldn't hire someone over the phone who said, I'm a great singer.
	If you didn't actually hear them sing.
	Right.
	You need to, you need to see the evidence.
	Right.
	And so if your boyfriend says he wants to change to the therapist,
	Then he would say to the therapist, okay, what's things that I can work on outside of therapy that will start to help make this change happen?
	And then he would start to work on those things, whether it was sentence completion exercises or introspection or writing down his dreams, or I don't know, whatever it would be, right?
	Whatever she would suggest.
	And then if he would say, listen, I'm really going to make a commitment to not raise my voice at you, that's really rude and intimidating.
	So there would be empirical evidence of him wanting to change.
	Like when you're working,
	You're measured, right?
	Like, how many drinks did you sell tonight?
	How many lap dances did you get tonight?
	There's a measurement, right?
	And you can't just say, oh, men found me really attractive and they, you know, whatever.
	They'd say, well, we have to measure this somehow.
	We have to measure your level of attractive.
	Doesn't if there's some stripper that no guy wants to sit with and no guy wants to buy drinks with and no guy wants to dance, then no matter how pretty she says she is or how attractive she says she is, what are they going to do?
	Yeah, they're going to let her go.
	Yeah, they're going to fire her, right?
	So like he can say the same thing back to me, like, okay, like you also haven't changed yet, you know?
	Uh, so.
	Well, okay.
	But I mean, I'm not talking to him.
	I'm talking to you and he could say the same thing.
	And in which case, neither of you really want to change for the other person, which means it's not much of a bond really.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	You know, if some, I don't know, some bizarre thing happened and, uh, you know, my wife had to go live in Greece or something, I just, okay, well, I'll go live in Greece, you know, like we'll just be together.
	Right.
	So it's not, it's not complicated from that standpoint.
	So, I mean, you guys are still long distance after eight years, right?
	Exactly.
	I mean, you've never made any real commitment.
	You've never really adjusted to each other.
	Mm.
	And so I think that the bond is more of a fear of being alone than a desire to be with someone, someone like that person in particular.
	And also he's good looking and you're good looking.
	So there's that aspect of things as well.
	Right.
	Yes.
	I have a huge fear of ending up alone.
	So maybe if you could also like give me some advice, like how can I, you know, um, I don't know, try to save myself.
	Or maybe find someone.
	Well, yeah.
	So, I mean, if you look at your current strategies, right?
	So, and, and again, I have massive sympathy for your childhood.
	So in no way is this critical.
	I'm just looking at sort of the cause and effect as I see it.
	It's not, not objective, right?
	So you were bullied for being overweight when you were a kid.
	So then you had an eating disorder in your teens, right?
	So you reacted to a situation of suffering with an external physical solution.
	Oh, I'm being bullied for being... Okay, you weren't being bullied for being overweight.
	That's not an accurate analysis of the situation, I think.
	I think you were being bullied because your parents weren't there and coaching you and protecting you and meeting your friends and establishing to your friends that you had a good relationship with your parents and
	You know, all of the things that, that prevent children from getting bullied, right?
	So the issue wasn't that you were overweight.
	Also your parents who are responsible for your food and exercise when you're younger should have not allowed you to get overweight, right?
	Yeah.
	So you weren't bullied because you were overweight.
	You were overweight and you were bullied because of a lack of parental attachment, involvement, protection, and love.
	If you had those things, you wouldn't have been overweight and you wouldn't have been bullied.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, I mean, yeah.
	I mean, there were kids in the school... It's hard, like, for me, it's still hard, like, not to blame myself for it, but it does make sense.
	Well, no, it's not hard for you to avoid blaming yourself.
	That's also not, I think, what's going on at the root of things.
	What's going on at the root of things is
	Your parents parented badly in many ways, and they blamed you for the effects of their bad parenting.
	And so you, in order to survive with your parents, we have to agree with them.
	We have to.
	I mean, we can't fight our parents, because historically, or evolutionarily speaking, kids who fought their parents tooth and nail would just get abandoned.
	They'd just get, like, you wouldn't be protected when the saber-toothed tyber came, you wouldn't get enough food, you wouldn't, right?
	I mean,
	You just get left behind.
	It's like there's too much hassle.
	So the way that we've survived as children, if we're mistreated, is we just conform as best we can to our parents.
	So if your parents are parenting you badly and then they say to you, it's your fault, you are going to say, okay, yeah, it's my fault.
	Yes, absolutely.
	It's my fault.
	You'll internalize that because that's how you survive.
	Or at least evolutionarily speaking, that's how we survived.
	Again, I'm not saying do you agree with everything, but do you sort of follow what I'm saying?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	So, you said the problem is that I'm overweight.
	Now, you had a theory which was if I lose weight, I won't be bullied, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So you started to lose weight.
	Did that stop you from getting bullied?
	Well, hell no.
	No?
	So what did you do?
	Um, I, well, I recovered?
	No, no, the whole process of the five years, 13 to 18, right?
	So you have a theory which says, if I lose weight, I won't be bullied.
	So you start to lose weight, you lose 5, 10, 15 pounds, and what happens?
	You're still bullied, so what do you do?
	Isolate myself?
	You keep losing weight.
	Yes.
	Because your theory is, if I'm thin enough, nobody will bully me, right?
	Now, as you keep losing weight,
	You keep getting bullied.
	Yeah.
	Now, if you were, you know, older or more independent or whatever, you would say to yourself, okay, well, I had a theory that I was being bullied because I'm overweight.
	I've now lost the weight and I'm a healthy weight.
	I'm still being bullied.
	So there must be some other reason as to why I'm being bullied.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	But you kind of dug in on this, or rather your parents encouraged you to dig on this, on this hypothesis.
	And you were saying,
	I'm bullied because I'm overweight.
	I will lose weight until I'm not bullied, but you keep getting bullied.
	So you keep losing weight.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So then you've got the, you're running an hour a day.
	You've got knee problems.
	You go to the therapist, the physical therapist.
	He says, look, you got to, Oh, she, I think it was says you got to gain weight.
	You got to, um, you know, I can't help you until you, you get some muscle and all of that.
	So then you say, if I'm,
	More physically attractive, men will like me or something like that.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	So you go to the gym, you get the personal trainer, you enter the bikini contest, you get the boob job, and now men are paying attention to you, right?
	But it's not that hard for a woman to get attention, a young woman in particular, to get attention from men.
	But what I think you really wanted was you said, if I'm attractive enough, men will love me.
	If I'm sexy enough, if I'm pretty enough, if I'm curvy enough, men will love me.
	There will be an attachment.
	There will be a bond.
	I will have that connection.
	Yeah.
	And so, you know, lo and behold, you are sexy and pretty enough and naked enough.
	And the guy waits outside the club till six in the morning to get your number, right?
	And did you get him?
	Or did you get his attention because of the qualities of your character?
	No.
	Did he see you helping out in the soup kitchen and helping the homeless?
	Or did he see you coming to the aid of a child who's being aggressed against by a parent in public or something like that?
	Or did he find you somewhere online fighting the good fight against anti-rational or immoral people and really making good arguments and holding fast to your principles and so on, right?
	You have these theories, or rather your parents have implanted in you when you were younger, these theories, which is to say, treat the cause, not the symptom.
	Now, when you were a kid, if you're overweight and your eating disorder all came about because of a lack of parental attachment and involvement, that's why I was kind of asking, did they train you?
	Did they teach you?
	Did they do anything like that to help you?
	Wasn't it like the other way around?
	Like they implanted me to
	Treat the symptom, not the cause?
	Yeah, sorry, if that's not what I said, that's what I meant.
	They implanted in you to treat the symptom rather than the cause, because they were the cause, right?
	You know, if someone's embezzling from the bank, they'll want the bank to investigate the computer system or the alarm system, anything rather than themselves, right?
	And so you very much wanted attention from men, which is perfectly natural and perfectly healthy.
	I mean, we're all here because women wanted attention from men and men wanted attention from women.
	So it's a wonderful and lovely part of life.
	So you wanted attention from men.
	And you found, I assume that when you went to the gym and you got the boob job and you, you got a great figure and all of that, that, you know, lo and behold, you went from the go-go dancing to the topless dancing to the stripper pole or whatever is happening.
	And you got more and more attention and resources from men.
	And so you have this maybe and maybe so with stripping, you're like, OK, well, I'm getting attention from men, but I already have a boyfriend.
	So maybe there's part of it like you sort of say lack of self-esteem or insecurity.
	OK, well, I'll be secure when I lose weight.
	OK, that doesn't work.
	OK, I'll gain the weight back.
	I'll be secure when I'm attractive physically to men.
	OK, I'll do that.
	Well, that's not really doing it either.
	And I say, OK, I'll be secure when I have enough money.
	Right?
	Which is why you stay in your mom's place, and you save your money, and you said you make an ungodly amount of money, almost literally, right?
	So you have these theories about how you're going to be happy, how you're going to be secure.
	And now you have a theory, which is, I'll be happy and secure if my boyfriend commits to me, we get married, we have kids, and he stays.
	Or something like that.
	Is that a fair way to put it?
	Yeah.
	I never saw it that way, but you're right.
	You're exactly right.
	So if you don't get to the cause, you're forever treating the symptoms, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, if you don't know you're lactose intolerant and you just keep drinking milk, you just keep dealing with that?
	Stomach cramps or whatever happens, right?
	So the question is, what's the cause of what you call your low self-esteem or your
	Insecurity and so on.
	And because you're trying to play, they call it whack-a-mole, right?
	Like this is game where the moles come up in arcades, like plastic moles, and you whack them with a little soft mallet or something like that.
	So they just keep coming up and you just keep playing whack-a-mole.
	And so what is the source or the cause or the underlying issue that is causing you to try and treat all of these symptoms?
	And when you treat all these symptoms,
	Things get worse in general, right?
	I've used this analogy a million times, but if you have a toothache because you've got a tooth infected and all you do is take painkillers, your tooth infection gets worse, right?
	Yeah.
	So you said, OK, well, I'm... OK, I'm bullied because I'm overweight.
	So then you lost so much weight, you got bullied for being underweight.
	Does that make sense?
	And you're like, well, I'll feel secure when men are attracted to me.
	And now you're in a situation where you feel very insecure.
	When the relationship started on physical attraction for you and for him, right?
	Because he was very handsome or probably still is.
	You're very pretty and still are.
	And so there's a certain amount, like he goes to the gym and you say he's got a great head of hair and you know, and all of that.
	So, so you guys are trying to build a relationship based on lust, based on physical appeal.
	Yeah.
	And it doesn't work.
	Any more than you can say, well, I'll stop bullying by stopping eating.
	I'll stop being bullied by, by stopping
	My food intake.
	And so you keep trying, and I understand this of course, right?
	You keep trying to solve an identity problem with an external strategy, like I'll eat less, I'll get a boob job, I'll dance naked to get male attention, and it doesn't, but it doesn't solve the, if I understand what you're saying correctly, it just doesn't solve the underlying problem, is that right?
	You're right.
	You're right.
	And so now it's like, okay, well, if my boyfriend commits to me, then I'll feel better.
	Then I'll be fine.
	But he would not be a wise man to commit to you based upon this kind of need, because something else would come along.
	Because the original problem always clamors.
	For for being heard like the foundational that the the pump the problem right at the root of things always clamors to be heard in other words you have to at some point deal with the tooth and Not mask the symptoms not cover up the symptoms at some point you have to go and get that test They give you to find out if you're lactose intolerant, right?
	Now, as to what that sort of core underlying issue is, I mean, for most of us, it's just being unloved as a child.
	Being unloved, being blamed, being aggressed against, being abandoned, being ignored, being untutored, untrained.
	Growing up like a savage in a world of skyscrapers.
	Because there's this foundational thing, which is like, OK, well, if my parents didn't really like me, who will?
	Who could?
	My parents who, my mother who decided to get pregnant and bore me for nine months and breastfed me and should be the most invested in liking me and wanting me to be there and enjoying my company.
	Well, she chose work and she chose ill temper and she chose rage and verbal abuse and all that, right?
	And it's that foundation of question.
	Okay, well, if my parents don't even like me, I mean, they're the ones who should like me the most.
	If my parents don't like me, am I unlikable or are my parents cold?
	Right?
	That's the fundamental question that we have, right?
	If my parents don't like me, am I just unlikable?
	Or are my parents cold?
	Or to put it another way, am I unlikable or are my parents unable to like people?
	Least of all themselves.
	Yeah.
	That's when we're kids, we always have to answer that question as I'm unlikable.
	I'm unlike my parents, because your parents always say, I'm mad at you because of X, Y, and Z. But if you change X, Y, and Z, things will be better.
	And you guys, you and your boyfriend, are currently doing that game with each other right now, right?
	I don't like you as you are.
	I'm down on you as you are.
	I'm negative on you as you are.
	But if you change X, Y, and Z, you dangle this, I'll like you again, right?
	And your parents did that too, I'm sure, right?
	And they'd yell at you and say, you need to change this, you need to do that, you need to do the other, right?
	And then I'll like you.
	We run these rat mazes, we do these useless tasks like the guy rolling the rock, Sisyphus rolling the rock up the hill forever and it never comes, never gets, stays at the top.
	So we do these ridiculous tasks, we go through these contortions in the hope that our parents will then love us and we will be secure and happy and content in the warm embrace of parental attachment.
	But does it ever happen?
	No.
	No, it does not.
	See, they're covering up their lack of bonding.
	They're covering up their lack of closeness by pretending that it's your bad deeds that are causing their distance.
	And if only you did the right thing, I could love you.
	But that's like the parental love must be unconditional, particularly when the children are very young.
	We don't ask babies to jump through hoops in order to love them.
	We don't say they have to have a paycheck or abs in order to love them or whatever.
	Right?
	So the parental love that you and I and everyone on the planet really deserves as the birthright of existence, the parental love and attachment where your parents are delighted to see you that they don't choose work at a paycheck over you.
	Right?
	I mean, if your boyfriend says, well, you should have quit stripping.
	Long time ago, well, you chose a paycheck, and I assume a fairly big paycheck, in exchange for that kind of connection.
	And your mom, she went to work, right?
	So she chose a paycheck and gave you to your grandmother rather than have that kind of connection, right?
	I mean, I want for my daughter to always know that... I mean, obviously, need to pay the bills, but I would never choose money I could... I could never... I would never choose optional money over time with her.
	That she's worth more to me than the money.
	I mean, obviously, again, I, you know, don't live in La La Land, got to pay the bills and got to work, but I won't choose extra money over time with her.
	That she's worth more to me than money I don't technically need in the moment.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So you were robbed, in my view, you were robbed of parental love attachment and connection.
	And they withheld that from you and that's wrong.
	It's absolutely wrong.
	And they're 100% responsible for it.
	And they say, of course, everyone says, well, but my parents had their own troubles and their own issues and they had bad childhoods and I get all of that.
	Okay.
	But if you don't want to love a child, there's a pretty simple solution, right?
	What's the simple solution if you don't want to love a child or you can't love a child?
	Just don't have one.
	Sure.
	You know, if I don't want a dog, if I don't like dogs, it's a pretty simple solution.
	I just don't get a dog.
	But if I get a dog, I've now taken on that responsibility and I have to provide those resources to the dog, right?
	If I say, well, I hate walking and then I get a big dog that needs a lot of exercise and I don't walk that dog, the dog's going to go slowly insane, right?
	But I've chosen to bring that dog into my life.
	I now owe it walks, right?
	And so when your parents choose to have you, they're taking on the most sacred commitment.
	It's far more sacred than a marital vow.
	When your parents have you, they're taking on a sacred commitment.
	I will love this child.
	And they say, Oh, I'm having trouble loving this child.
	Okay.
	Then find a way to fix it.
	Read parenting books, get therapy, force yourself to do it.
	Quit your job.
	Whatever you need to do to make sure that child knows that she is
	Love, treasured, worshipped and adored.
	That's what you do.
	Because that, you know, that's what you do.
	Or you give up the child.
	Which, you know, you can do.
	You can just drop the child off at, you know, if you don't have relatives who can take it that you would respect.
	You can drop it off at a police station.
	You can drop it off at a fire station.
	You know, like if I get a dog and it turns out I really don't like dogs, I don't get to sit there for the next 14 years of the dog's life or whatever and just
	Make that dog feel like crap, and yell at it, and hit it, and not walk it.
	Like, that's not a thing.
	If I get a dog and it turns out... Well, first of all, do some research, spend some time around dogs.
	But if I get a dog and it turns out I really don't like that dog, then I should give the dog to somebody who will like the dog, right?
	The thing is, like, the irony, actually, with my parents... My mother always had problems with pregnancy, so she couldn't carry them through.
	And so they spent 11 years together before they actually had me.
	Right.
	So they desperately wanted a child.
	Okay, well now you have the child.
	You know, there's food, water, shelter, love in that order.
	Or maybe water first, right?
	But you owe the child love.
	That's the deal.
	That's the deal.
	Otherwise you're setting your child up for, you know, some pretty significant challenges in life.
	And so as, and it's a funny thing, like as parents, and we, we all understand this when it comes to pet ownership, but with parents, it's just kind of weird.
	I don't know exactly why it happens.
	I mean, I never became a parent and thought, well, you know, I can choose to spend or not spend time with my daughter.
	I can choose to like her or not like her or whatever.
	Right.
	But it's a weird thing with parents.
	They, they just, they have kids and the kids are around.
	And I call them feeders and minders, right?
	They just make sure the kid doesn't injure himself, and they feed the kid, and that's about it.
	You know, they'll chat a little bit at dinner, but there's no parenting going on, there's no transfer of wisdom, there's no questions about the day, there's no understanding of the social environment, there's no helping the child through particular challenges.
	You're just like... I mean, zookeepers are more friendly to their charges, in a way, than... I mean, I think of my... I think of Arlo in my novel with his little monkeys, right?
	His lemurs.
	But... Or people are kind of... They're cats or whatever, but it's just... It's a funny thing, and I'm sorry that you got caught up in this, because it is really, like, it's a big, big worldwide problem.
	Which is, no, like as parents, you... You have to love your children.
	Well, I'm having trouble with that.
	Okay.
	That's not an option.
	That's not an option.
	You have to do that.
	And you have to find a way to do that.
	It's an absolute.
	You have to find a way to do that.
	You can't just have a child, and as your parents did, it seems like, turned you over to a vicious peer group and all of the satanic charms of the internet, right?
	So you're looking for that primary attachment and you're trying to get it through dieting.
	You're trying to get it through exercise.
	You're trying to get it through sex appeal.
	You're trying to get it through a boob job.
	You're trying to get it through all of these things.
	But I think the original wound will continue if it's not looked at directly, which is your parents.
	Yeah.
	But it's like, what do I do now?
	Because I feel like time is really pressuring me.
	And...
	I really do have this fear of ending up alone.
	Well, but if you don't want your boyfriend as he is, and he's not going to change, if you continue on this path, it seems very likely that you will end up alone.
	Right.
	But even older, and maybe with a baby or two, which makes it even tougher to find a guy.
	Yes, right.
	So again, I can't tell you what
	What you should do.
	I can only give you what I think are the principles behind what you're doing.
	And you look at the mental attitude that I have.
	And I did this pivot in my, in my twenties and the pivot is okay.
	So my mom didn't like me.
	I'm not unlikable.
	I'm actually pretty, pretty likable fellow.
	And so my mother, it wasn't that I was bad, it wasn't that I was disobedient, it wasn't that I talked back, it wasn't that I whatever, right?
	My mother chose hatred over love.
	She chose indifference over attachment.
	You say, ah well, but she had a bad child.
	Yeah, okay.
	But still, if you were to ask any parent, is it important to love your children, what would they say?
	Yes.
	Yes, of course.
	Like, they know.
	This is not something... If it turned out tomorrow that if you didn't teach your children Japanese, that was just really terrible for them, people would say, well, I had no idea.
	But if you ask any parent, should you love your children?
	Yes, of course.
	So, they know.
	They know what it is.
	But if your parents didn't teach you what love is, what are you left with?
	Dieting, boob jobs, lust, shaking your butt.
	But that's not love.
	That's just attraction.
	That's lust.
	That's interest.
	And you can't build, you can't build a family on lust or sexual attention.
	So your fear, I mean, I would guess that if you find some way to wrangle this guy and get married and whatever, right?
	And then have a kid or two, it seems impossible to imagine.
	I mean, if you guys are having this level of trouble when you're not even married and you don't have kids, then what happens with the additional impacts of living together, being married and having kids?
	Because, you know,
	Kids will be up all night.
	Kids get sick.
	There's, you know, there's challenges and troubles with kids.
	Eminently worth it, but yeah, there are, right?
	And what's going to happen with you guys?
	I mean, you're living a pretty carefree life in many ways, right?
	I mean, he's living at home.
	You're living in your mom's place.
	You've got tons of money.
	You've got your youth.
	You've got your health.
	You don't have kids.
	You don't have the, you know, minor frictions that can show up with living together.
	So it's like your bridge can't handle this traffic.
	What happens if the traffic goes up 10 times, right?
	Right.
	No, it would just fail.
	Well, and then it fails when there are children involved.
	And that's a whole different planet, right?
	I mean, you know what it's like to grow up.
	Your father left when you were young.
	Oh, sorry.
	He left when you were in your early teens, right?
	With the combination of your mom's cancer and your eating disorder.
	Yeah.
	But that was really tough, right?
	And you don't want to set up a situation where you have a kid or two and the dad's gone.
	That's, you know, that's, isn't that, isn't that the worst case scenario?
	It is, for me it is.
	Right, right, right.
	So, I mean, he's told you he's not going to change.
	And if you don't want him as he is, and he's told you he's not going to change, it seems to me you would only be setting yourself up for
	This kind of abandonment, if you go forward.
	Again, I don't know for sure, and I can't tell you whether to be with him or not, but just based on the evidence that I see, that would be my best prediction.
	Yeah.
	And then, of course, most people then say, well, I'll just give him an ultimatum.
	I'll say, look, this is how it has to be, or... But ultimatums are usually very bad as a whole.
	Because you may, for whatever reason,
	Maybe he's got, well, you're an economist, you know, like the fallacy of sunk costs.
	Well, we have eight years in!
	It's like, well, yeah, but the only thing worse than having eight years in a bad relationship is having eight years in one day in a bad relationship, right?
	So, ultimatums, let's say he conforms and he complies.
	You still haven't earned his love.
	You've just earned his compliance with threats or bribes or whatever, right?
	Or maybe you say, oh look, here's my bank account, I'm wealthy or whatever, right?
	But then that's just a bribe, that's not, again, that's still not love.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, you're right.
	And I personally would recommend, if you do talk therapy and so on,
	You know, early childhood stuff, maybe attachment stuff.
	Again, I'm no expert, I'm just talking off the cuff as an amateur, but I would imagine something like that would be good.
	I have a show, I think it's 1927, which is How to Find a Good Therapist, which were my thoughts on the matter, and you can find that at fdrpodcast.com.
	How are you feeling?
	You sound a little heartbroken.
	I am, you know, I am.
	Probably like I, somewhere deep inside, I had a feeling it was not going to work out, but I just was trying to force it to work out.
	I don't know.
	Right.
	Right.
	Right.
	And that's very tempting.
	And that's, you know, cause you're, that's what you're used to is, is if you use aggression, you get a reward and that's what your parents did.
	And that's understandable.
	And he's doing the same thing.
	I would imagine, like, if I raise my voice, then I'll get compliance and love and
	You know, the fact that he's still living at home when he had a terrible childhood and he's over 30 is probably not the best indicator either.
	Yeah.
	And you know, he, he, I actually told him like, well, you would, you would be much better off just moving away from your parents.
	And he just like, he's very, he started screaming again.
	Like it was like some kind of bad thing for me to say.
	Yeah, I mean, being screamed at is really, really terrible.
	It's just terrible.
	It really shreds the relationship.
	It shreds the trust, it shreds the love, or the attachment.
	It's really terrible.
	Because you're saying that your rage is more important than your partner's feelings, and that's not a very stable situation to be in at all, in my opinion.
	Yeah, for me it was like, at first I almost tried to like,
	Pull him back and I was very apologetic and I was like, no, please, like you cannot leave me like things like that.
	And I still love you.
	And it was just he was just keep he would just keep going at me like.
	Yeah.
	And I'm sorry, that's a that's a terrible scene to be in.
	It really is.
	And again, massive, massive sympathies all around.
	It's it's.
	It's a very tough situation.
	I mean, you are still young enough that it doesn't work out.
	You can still have a family, but I think there's pretty significant risk in this situation.
	You're right.
	You're right.
	Okay.
	Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	No, no, but thank you very much.
	You are more than welcome.
	Listen, I appreciate you reaching out.
	And again, I have huge sympathy for all that you suffered through.
	It's very, very tough.
	Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	I will.
	All right, all right.
	Well, thanks very much for the call and very best of luck, my friend.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	Bye.

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