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June 18, 2023 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:21:00
Hot Fitness Wife Fears Cheating! Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
I may need a little bit of help because when I wrote in the other day, I think I wrote it probably 20 different times and I kept erasing it and rewriting it over and over.
So I don't remember specifically exactly what I did send.
Oh, do you want me to read that out?
Yeah, yeah. I would love that if you could.
No problem. No problem.
Okay, so let me just get to here.
And, uh, has a husband issue?
Should I be concerned? That's the one, right?
Yes. Is it normal for my husband to be adding attractive slash provocative women on his social media and liking their posts?
I am confused as I check off the boxes of what an attractive moral woman should be.
And yet I find myself questioning, am I enough?
Will he leave me? Is this normal behavior and am I overthinking it?
Or does this behavior confirm my fears?
He is still looking. We've been trying to start a family, but I am scared slash lost on what to do.
I'm 26 and the clock is ticking.
So does that accord with what you want to talk about?
Is that close? Yes, yes.
Now I remember.
I had somewhat of a remembering of what I had written, especially the last part.
But I don't know really how to navigate this and how to really put it out there because it is quite a bit of a story.
So I don't know if there's a specific way that you want to go about it or where you want me to start.
Well, I'm afraid that one's going to be up to you because...
I don't know where the story is and I would trust your own instincts and whatever you feel is the best way to approach it is almost certainly correct.
So I would just go for that.
Well, it's kind of tough because I've played over this multiple times in my head and also we're very open with communication.
He introduced me to you about three years ago.
It absolutely changed my life.
He's one that we really do sit down and try to work through everything.
And so this topic has been brought up and I tried to really handle it with him, but it keeps coming up.
So I would say about a year ago is when I first noticed it.
Like, I can't speak for all women, but most like me, for instance, I I do kind of pry.
I look for something. I don't know if it would be that I'm looking for something wrong, but it's more of I'm just trying to make sure that my surroundings are okay, that our relationship is okay.
And so sometimes I'll find myself maybe snooping through his phone.
And when I did that a year ago, I found that he had been adding all of these women on his social media.
And I wouldn't say like it's It's something that you see most men do, but it kind of weirded me out because...
Okay, sorry to interrupt. It's just I, as a relatively old fogey, need to know what the heck this means.
So is this like he's following hot girls on Instagram and liking their posts?
Is that the kind of thing you're talking about?
Yes, that's exactly it.
And on what grounds do you feel this is super common?
I'm certainly happy to hear, but what is a super common scenario here?
Well, when I say it's super common, I can't speak for all men, but the men that have been in my life, they typically tend to be men that have kind of the searching eye, I'd say.
Like, they're never really satisfied with me, I feel like, so they continue looking, or I find them cheating.
I would say two of my serious relationships in my past prior to My husband, I was both cheated on.
I have never cheated. Both ended up cheating on me.
And so it kind of just came like a feeling that I was meant to have cheaters in my life or I would one day have to settle for a cheater and just have to live with it because I do go after the apex predator.
Ew! What do you mean settle with a cheater?
What are you talking about? Settle with a cheater?
Well, at one point it was kind of a decision that I thought that I would have to make is either I'm going to find a very apex predator, high-performing, wealthy gentleman that would be a cheater and I'd have to live with it because he has all of that at his disposal or I'd have to settle for a man that doesn't achieve as much and it was kind of like one or the other.
And I feel like I got the best of everything in my husband.
He's absolutely wonderful.
He's everything I ever wanted.
But I find myself still worrying that he could be looking, if that makes sense.
Well, yeah. No, I get that.
I understand that. So far, I'm very proud of my big philosophical input, which is to say, ew!
So there we go. Let's take your valley girl, grody to the max, Aristotelian feedback.
All right. Do you want to do childhood thing?
Like, how is this iTrade?
I trade resources to be part of a harem.
I trade resources for a potentially half-open relationship.
I mean, this has got to be something that was normalized.
I would assume. I could be wrong, of course, but it would be something that would be normalized in your childhood.
Is that right? I mean, is this how your parents ran things, or how did you get this idea?
Yeah, I can straight...
Because I know how this...
I've been listening to you nonstop for three years...
My childhood was, I don't have a relationship with them anymore.
I cut them out of my life about a year ago, and I'm talking all of them, five siblings, or sorry, I don't know if that's too much, siblings.
And my parents, I did cut out a year ago because they're just absolutely horrible people.
And there was a trading of resources.
It was every time you were given something, you didn't want to accept it because you knew that it meant that you owed them money.
And parents were horrible.
I could say that. My dad was a creep.
Like a very creepy.
Almost like bordering pedophile.
He was just very weird.
And my mom was an evil woman.
Just absolutely selfish. And she loved to beat me.
And I was her favorite kid to beat, if you'd say that.
I'm so sorry. I don't want to just blow past this.
That's... Absolutely appalling.
I'm so sorry.
The beatings, the creepiness, all of that.
I assume, of course, that you gave it a good old shot to try and fix things as an adult.
That's just appalling and terrible.
I'm really, really sorry you went through that.
Well, thank you. Yeah, I would say that it's a good relationship now in that I don't have the relationship.
I did give them multiple chances.
I did work through it with them more than I believe anyone really can do.
I went over and beyond even with my siblings, but that ended and I would say that a big issue with
My family that keeps reoccurring is I feel abandonment Sorry, I'm trying to
Well, you're not trying to stay composed in an emotional conversation
You're not going to rob me that way, are you?
I must talk about difficult things but show zero human emotion because that's how I connect with people.
The feelings are fine.
Obviously, I welcome them as you've got a difficult situation.
You had a very, very difficult past.
I way prefer this.
I'm sure you've heard these. It's often mechanical guys who are like, and then I was beaten.
And then my face was put into a cheese shredder.
And it's like, ha, ha, ha.
So I much prefer having the emotional connection.
So don't feel bad about that at all if that's what's happening.
Yeah. Well, abandonment is a really big thing that I had to deal with because it seemed like not only in my family life, I feel abandoned by each one of them.
But in each friendship, I was abandoned.
I was screwed over. I was cheated on.
And then in every relationship, I've been cheated on.
Sorry. It's kind of like I'm just expecting it to happen.
Tell me what you mean, if you could, about the parental abandonment stuff, because the creepiness doesn't sound abandoning.
It sounds kind of stalky, and the beatings is not quite abandonment, which is, you know, you certainly weren't ignored, right, in that sense.
So help me understand what you mean by the parental abandonment stuff.
Well, I don't know I'm trying to...
And I'm not disagreeing with you about it at all.
I mean, it's your life. I just want to make sure I understand.
I'm trying to figure out if the correct word is abandonment.
It feels like the right word, and the reason why I say that is it could be growing up, I felt they were very, very controlling.
They wouldn't allow me out of the house.
They wouldn't allow us to have friends.
We were homeschooled, and we were raised Christian, and My dad was a pastor, so he was one of those...
I basically have seen a side of the church that most people would be scared to see.
And so I was raised in that home, and they kept us hidden.
But it wasn't like officially the Church of Satan.
Was it just like subtly the Church of Satan?
No, no, no. Because I think it's part of the Christian mythology, but I just want to make sure which way he was pointing.
Yeah. No.
Yeah, it was just a lot of...
I like to say a lot of spiritual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse.
It was much heavier, though, on the spiritual abuse and the emotional abuse.
But, like, my parents would sit us down and do trials of their marriage.
We had to sit there all day long and figure out who was right, who was wrong.
Oh, my God. Yeah.
From what age did you go through these struggle session horror shows?
Yeah. My youngest memory is a sexual memory of my parents, of them having a sexual interaction in front of me.
And then the middle part of my childhood, I just remember constant, like, fights, nothing was right, everything was wrong.
I was really, I was a very sexually active young girl, and so, and I, it's from...
Wait, what? Hold it, slow down!
When I say sexually active, I just mean I was introduced to porn when I was 10.
And I was a porn addict from like 10 to 22.
Like an aggressive, aggressive, like...
Okay, so that's not active.
That's exploited and abused.
Exploited, okay, yeah.
And they would make me feel bad about it.
They would find out and they would discipline me for it and...
It's just horrible.
I assume it wasn't some creepy kid in the schoolyard.
I mean, how did you get introduced to this material?
Well, I think that that is where I believe my dad could be bordering or an uncle could be bordering as a pedophile entered into my life or someone entered into my life that molested me.
I'm sorry if I'm getting off on this, like getting astray from your question, but...
No, no, listen, this is your life and your story.
You can't possibly go astray on what is important to you.
The reason I say that is because my mom, when I became a teenager, she came to me and she...
I don't know how we got on the topic, but she told me that a young kid at one point when we were in a co-op, a homeschool co-op, when we'd get together on Wednesdays, that...
She found out that a young boy touched me inappropriately, but that doesn't make any sense at the age of four because that's what kids do.
It's not like...
I don't know if I'm wrong on that, but I don't see that.
I think that there's some playing doctor kind of curiosity stuff.
I have no idea what to think of it, but it doesn't strike me in quite the same category as a guy with a windowless van.
Exactly. Yeah, so...
When I heard that, immediately it sounded like a lie to me.
It sounded like you made this up so you wouldn't have to tell me the truth, that some adult actually did it.
And we had a very large group of creepy adults around, like very predatorial, weird, out of the norm.
And my dad was very weird that way too.
So automatically I just assumed someone did something to me when I was young.
And all my sisters are the same way.
They all are very, very sexually active.
And when I say sexually active, I actually mean active at the age of 11 or 12, which means there was a predator around.
So I, at a young age, was really addicted to porn.
And because of it, it kind of hindered my relationships with men because I could just go find it elsewhere.
And to me, I had been taught that it's an evil thing.
And that you should be punished for it.
So it was kind of always like my secret until...
The funny thing is, until my husband.
He was the first person I could be open with it about, which is actually another topic that I wanted to say, that he also is a porn addict.
But... I'm sorry, I got led astray.
What was your original question?
Boy, did you ever get led astray.
Oh my gosh. I'm sorry. No, no, no.
I mean, just in general, in your...
In your life? Wow.
I mean, I guess this is the environment for a lot of young people today, and it's pretty rough.
Okay, so we were actually, believe it or not, going back in time, what we were trying to do is figure out a word that may not be quite the same as abandoned, And I absolutely, completely, totally hesitate to tell you what the word is.
I have a thought about what the word is, and of course, if it's not the word, tell me and we'll keep looking.
But the word that comes to my mind in hearing your story, my friend, is not abandonment.
The word is betrayal. Yes, that's it.
That's it. Okay.
Okay, well, if we agree, I won't flesh it out, but it just sounds like, yeah, it's a lot of betrayal of violence, betrayal of sexual propriety, but betrayal of personal boundaries, betrayal of the duty to protect and nurture and encourage and so on.
So, betrayal, betrayal.
Okay, and the reason why I'm saying that is if you had a bunch of boyfriends who ghosted you, that would be more in line with abandonment.
But you have a series of boyfriends, and maybe what's going on with your husband at the moment is more about betrayal, right?
Okay. Wait, I don't know if it's you being nice and complimentary or if it's actually...
No, you're 100% right.
I wish I would have thought...
The funny thing is I've written down betrayal so many times and that is the gut feeling I've gotten over the past year with the circumstance I wrote you about.
Right, right. So that's actually, it's dead on.
Yeah. Okay, good, good, good.
I just wanted to make sure it fit.
Okay, so the betrayal went on into your teen years.
If that's kind of the motif or the theme that we might be working with, that kind of went along in that situation.
Were there any other significant, I mean, as you, the boyfriends and so on in your teenage years, they were the cheaters and so on?
Correct, too.
I became successful at a really young age because I was always trying to prove myself.
And I left home at...
I think I left home at 15.
You left home at 15?
Yes. Was it just trying to get away from the creepiness?
No, my mom wanted me to leave.
She kind of kept...
She made it about their marriage, but she does this to all of them.
But especially me, she...
Was like if you want to go and leave and go find your own home you can it's probably better there like she was constantly just trying to push us out and my dad was desperately trying to keep us in so it's kind of one of those things that I just I knew I needed to leave so I forced it.
Okay now do you have any thoughts as to why your mother was taking this approach?
Uh... I don't think she...
I don't think she wanted children.
I think that she wanted beating bags.
Like, I think...
She wanted what? She wanted beating bags.
She wanted people that she could assert her dominance over and she could be...
That she could hit.
That she could tell.
She... When I was born, I look identical to her.
So it was almost as if I was something that she could portray her feelings and what she felt about herself on.
And just from what I can remember, she just didn't like me.
Even to this day, she doesn't like me.
And I'm also the only child that calls her out on anything.
Last time I had a conversation with her, it was Telling her how she shouldn't beat my other siblings, and that kind of ended everything, so they didn't want me around anymore.
Wait, she shouldn't beat your other siblings, so she still has control over them?
Mentally, she does. They're all adults, but they haven't broke the tie with her.
I tried to save each one of them.
I tried to bring them out of it.
And I'm talking more than Tri.
I've given them money.
I've put them in housing. I've done everything I could to get them away.
Ah, the great sibling rescue mission that could consume people.
Yep, and in return, they all betrayed me.
And what did you do at the age of, I mean, I shudder to ask, but I've got my crash helmet on and I'm ready to hear, what happened at 15?
I assume you went with a boy or a man?
No, at 15 I went really heavily into the fitness world because I figured that if I wasn't If I didn't have a family or a tribe to come from, I was going to make myself look attractive enough in the world to be accepted and so that I could make money and I could go find a man and all that.
So I went through this whole fitness stage of like just being consumed with it and living at the gym and working five jobs and trying to pay my way through everything.
And then I found...
A job that I worked at and I did really, really well at it.
Almost too well to where they really exploited me.
Sorry, they really what you?
They exploited me.
I was an 18-year-old and I helped the company make millions and millions of dollars.
And so from it, I made about six figures at a really young age for about two years.
But they just...
Took all my money from me.
So they helped me make it, but then they would take it.
And it was just like this horrible ordeal.
And during that time, I found my first boyfriend.
Sorry, my second boyfriend, who really just took advantage of me.
He was very abusive.
He kicked me out seven times.
And he wouldn't beat me, but he emotionally abused me, like, extremely to where I would just...
I couldn't eat. I... I was losing tons of weight and then I gained tons of weight and then I was finding out he was sleeping with like 50 girls.
It was like all over the place.
At first it was just one girl and then it turned into two and then it just kind of snowballed.
And I found it on his computer and his iPhone and it just, it kept getting worse and worse and worse and the abuse kept getting worse and worse and worse with kicking me out, destroying my things.
Bringing me back, kicking me out.
It was just kind of this horrible pattern.
Was he much older?
No, he was, I would say, probably three or four years older.
Not that much.
At the time, though, I was 18.
And I was making quite a bit of money.
So I would say I was naive to it.
I really didn't know what was going on.
I was just very, I wanted to impress him all the time.
I wanted to prove myself. So it wasn't really a relationship between him and me.
It was more of like an abusive, like I'm trying to prove myself to you and be good enough for you.
Now, in the fitness world, I would assume, obviously I could be wrong, but I would assume that there's a lot of people in the fitness world who are trying to be attractive on the outside because they don't feel lovable on the inside.
I'm not saying that's everyone. You know, some people are in it for sort of good, healthy reasons, but it sort of struck me that that's a thing.
Did you notice that, or am I off base about that?
No, that's really a thing as trying to...
I don't know.
For me, it was the discipline...
And I could actually control something in my life.
That's what it felt like for me.
There was something in my life that I could put work into that I could actually get out something that people would admire.
And then I figured that it actually was working for me sexually to where I was like, oh, well, this actually can open up doors for me.
I didn't know that. And then it kind of gravitated into that of I have to keep this up because if I don't, then...
I won't be loved or I won't be able to attract that person or keep this person.
Yes, that's kind of what it turned into.
Okay, got it, got it.
So how long were you in the relationship with the guy who was a couple of years older, this sort of kicked-out-eight-times guy?
I would say about three years.
Now, was that constant or off and on?
It was constantly off and on.
Okay, okay.
And what was the final straw there?
My husband now, I met him.
He actually ended up being my next-door neighbor when he had a girlfriend and I had, of course, my boyfriend.
And we met and we became friends.
Him and my boyfriend did.
And he noticed how much everyone was abusing me and how much what I was going through.
And he sat there as a friend and would just let me talk and he'd listen.
And then finally, he's just like, this is too much.
You need to get out. We need to help you.
So him and his girlfriend, his girlfriend hated me, though.
I actually ended up being why they broke up.
He helped me get away from him twice.
The first time he helped me, he put me up in his girlfriend's apartment while they were off.
What? Yeah.
Okay, I'm sorry. I don't mean to get all kind of old-fashioned and fogey on you.
But, you know, I don't mean to, but you were, I mean, I saw the picture, I mean, you're a very attractive woman, and of course, you're in the height of your physical fitness craze, and so you are a pretty and attractive young woman, and the guy who's now your husband said to his girlfriend, let's have her move in!
Yes. Did that strike you as kind of bizarre?
No, yes. But I want to make sure I'm doing him justice.
They were living somewhere else, and they had an empty apartment.
Oh, so he said, you can move into my empty apartment?
Yes, correct. And did you view this as a guy who's just a really great friend, and he would give this, you know, if you happen to be an elderly Asian gentleman, he would do the same thing?
Or, I'm just trying to understand.
So, I want to make sure I'm doing him justice, because I've been going over...
He is that type of person.
He has given multiple apartments to multiple men, multiple women.
He's the type that he really does want to help people.
Okay. I will put my judgment aside and follow your lead.
I just have to be honest about that because at the same time that he allowed me to live in that apartment, he had two other apartments that he was letting less fortunate men stay in so they could get back on their feet.
Okay, and what is his, I mean, how does he have all these apartments lying around?
He did very well as well as a young guy.
I really don't want to get into his work.
No, that's fine. Yeah, no, I understand.
And is he religious?
Is that his motivation or is there something else that makes him this altruistic or generous?
You said he's super religious?
Is that what you said? No, is he? Is he religious or what is it that gives him this altruistic motivation?
No, we're the same.
We're both, I don't know how I would call us.
I wouldn't say atheist, but I would say atheist with Christian morals and values, if I can say that.
Yeah, cultural Christians or immoral Christians.
Correct. Yes.
All right. So he's running almost like a charity to help people out.
Okay. I understand.
And you didn't move in with the girlfriend, but the girlfriend disliked you.
Was that because she had some suspicion that he was interested in you?
Right. Okay.
But you had also, if I understand this correctly, you had so organized your life so that you would be attractive to most straight men.
Is that fair to say? Correct.
Okay. Okay, so what happened when you moved into this fellow's empty apartment?
And I guess you went free there?
Yes, I was.
And it only lasted about a month.
And then my... My boyfriend came back and demanded that I come back.
I can't even say how he did it, but I went back.
I ended up going back and I would say about three months after that, after cosmetic surgeries and everything because of this guy.
What? I think he didn't beat you.
Well, if you call that beating, yes.
Wait, why did you do cosmetic surgeries?
Because the women he was sleeping with looked different than me.
And when I was 18, 19, I thought, well, if he's sleeping with that, then apparently that's what he wants.
Oh, like they had like gigaboobs or something?
Yeah, exactly.
Okay. So I went back with him and that lasted maybe a month.
And then I reached out to my husband and I said, hey, I got to get out of this.
Nothing's changed. And so he didn't, of course, offer any kind of help at that time.
He just said, well, of course, I'll make sure that you're safe getting away from him.
So I ended up leaving.
I was completely in debt.
I had to file bankruptcy because my husband, not my husband, my boyfriend had put me in so much debt.
And I had no money to my name because he had taken it all from me.
I really had nothing. Sorry to interrupt.
How would he put you in debt? All of the money I would make, he would go and spend it.
So when I would come home, he'd stick his hands in my pocket and take out any money I had made from my job.
He would ask for access to my bank account.
He would spend all my money.
He would tell me that I wasn't good enough if I didn't drive a certain luxury car, if I lived in a luxury building.
He said that because I was who I was, I had to keep up a lifestyle appearance.
And so it goes against everything that's ingrained in me because as a kid, I worked my ass off to save money.
My God, how good looking is this guy?
I would say he looks like trash now, but at the time he looks really good looking.
So... It wasn't really even very good looking, but it was more of the abuse and the attitude.
I don't know how to explain it.
Like, I liked the attitude at the time.
I liked being controlled because I had come from it.
All I can say is... No, but you also ran away from it too, right?
Yes, true. True.
So it's more like I ran from one abuser's arms into another.
But... I know that there's going to be a thousand ethereal or a billion ethereal male voices screaming out when a young, really attractive and obviously intelligent woman ends up with a piece of trash guy and all the good guys, all the nice guys are like, what?
Do I have to be a complete a-hole to get a girl?
It's pretty rough.
Yeah, exactly. But of course, your level of physical attractiveness would also draw...
Such kind of guys, because it's an exploitable resource, right?
Because if you are out there, and I'm sure your looks had something to do, it's not the only thing, obviously, but it had something to do with you making the money, that if you're very attractive, then it draws exploiters, because that's like a mineable resource in a way, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it does. Okay, so you bail out on Joe used to be six-pack, like your boyfriend of a couple of years, and what happens then?
I leave and I'm broke.
I'm living on someone's couch for about six months and I go from...
I don't want to sound snobby about this, but I feel like it plays into it.
I went from making a good amount of money being young and kind of being the star of the show to being a no one.
I had no money, nothing, living on a couch.
How did you lose your job from breaking up with this guy?
I... Didn't like, I don't know the word for it.
They were preaching a story that was not true.
And I can't live with that.
So I openly came out about it and was trying to help people and tell them this is not how it actually is.
This is not correct. And because of it, They came at me with everything they could.
They betrayed me. My own company betrayed me after they made millions of dollars off me.
They came at me saying, we're going to make up this lie that you do heroin and cocaine at the age of 18.
And they were like, we will all get behind this and we'll sign off on it.
And they basically were pulling out everything they could to get me out of the company.
So I ended up just terminating everything and terminating my position with them and just starting over.
Because I thought it would be better. And how long were you of the opinion that there was this fraud, if that's the right word for it, if there was this fraud going on before you left?
About a year and a half.
And how long were you there as a whole?
About three years.
Right. And did you think it was a fraud the whole time?
No, I... I don't know if this gives away me too much.
That's why I don't want to say it.
If you're not comfortable, I'm just curious.
It's one of those things that you just...
It's almost like a cult.
You get bought into it and it's bigger than life.
And after some time, you realize this is a complete scam.
This is something that isn't real.
It's just a fake story with a lot of good storytellers.
And some of them have great talent and some of them don't, but they're just using people and manipulating them.
And I didn't want to make money that way.
It seemed cruel. Right.
Yeah. I mean, it did seem like a lot of money for a young person, but all right.
Sometimes that can be a bit of a red flag.
Okay, so you kind of got kicked out of your career and were you, I guess, were you kind of depressed at this point?
I mean, were you unable, you said six months on someone's couch?
I assume this wasn't another guy.
Oh, I thought that I had gone from believing in so much and being desensitized to like money.
Like I didn't even think money was an issue until I got out and then I realized, oh crap.
This is not real life.
I'm going to have to start over and figure this out again.
And it's kind of like emerging from a cult.
So I felt like my life was over.
I was like, wow, I'm really going to have to restart and remold everything and become a whole new person.
And so I spent six months doing that.
But I went into a very...
My thing was when I got out, the only thing I had to my advantage was I was a great speaker.
I was a great salesperson.
And I had good looks.
So I went to the first place I knew that you could make up almost the same amount of income, and that was a very sexually active area in the, I don't know how you would put it, the nightlife industry.
Does that make sense? I feel like there's one too many euphemisms from my poor old brain to follow this, if that's all right.
You don't have to be totally clear.
I mean, it sounds like escort, or are you somebody who fills up clubs and makes it look good?
It's kind of like two steps before that.
It's like cocktailing.
Let's just say it's cocktailing.
But it's definitely two steps before that.
Oh, so you just sort of hang around and float with guys and fill up clubs and make them look cool?
Waitering. Yeah, it was just waitering, but at high-end restaurants.
So I did make really good money, and But it was a very sexual environment, and so I feel like it just got even worse and worse and worse.
What a sexual environment.
Sorry, again, I don't mean to sound like all kinds of curious.
It means that everyone was just having sex.
Like all the women were just having sex because they were all escorts, and I didn't know what that meant at the time.
And they were just, that's the way that they were making money.
And so I was watching that and I was watching how these men were treating them.
And I just went, wow. So there really isn't such a thing as like a monogamous relationship.
It's like, this is how you make money.
This is how you get somewhere.
You have to like be sexually attractive to these men.
You have to do certain things.
And that kind of was my perspective for about two years.
It changed everything.
It changed from you have to have a family and a monogamous relationship to, oh shit, the only way to attract A high-performing male and keep a high-performing male is to attract him and to be sexual like this.
It was just nasty.
Do you keep him?
Because if you're basically just a willing hole, then there's always another willing hole somewhere out there that's got the spice of novelty.
So you might be able to get that guy, but I assume that these didn't exactly turn into long-term relationships.
No, yeah, exactly.
So it's just straight up sex for resources, the oldest trade in the book, right?
Exactly. That's literally what I witnessed for those two years.
And while I was there too, I was just, I'm going to use the word again, I was betrayed over and over and over again by every woman I would try to become friends with.
So not only do I not have a family, I don't have friends, I don't have the career that I based my, I would say my early youth around.
And so I'm like the only person that was honest and actually would sit down and talk to me and would kind of...
He was the first person that was honest with me in that he really made me think.
Like he wouldn't just give me straight answers and lie to me so that he could sleep with me.
He'd actually talk to me about things.
And we became friends the same, my husband.
So once I left the relationship and I was building myself back up.
We kind of really didn't keep in touch.
He worked elsewhere a lot.
And then he would come back occasionally and we'd catch up.
And then one night he came and we had a dinner, just a basic dinner to catch up.
And he brought up God.
And I was very much trying to get into the church again.
I had all of these women around me and one woman in particular was trying to run my life.
She was isolating me from other people and she was just trying to, it was very odd.
And he brought up that something about God and it pissed me off.
And so she told me to disconnect from him and tell him that I couldn't be friends with anymore because he wasn't a Christian.
So I texted him and I let him know that and of course that blew up and he came back telling me that he was the only honest person and that men would just lie to me in order to sleep with me and it would continue and that she wasn't really being honest with me.
So he went away and I blocked him for about six months and then one day I just thought, you know, heck, I'll add him back and so I added him back and immediately he said, would you like to go to Colorado with me?
What? Exactly. Hey, stranger, let's go on a vacation together.
Yeah, exactly. And at this point, we had been friends for about three and a half years.
It never dawned on me.
Never. And I don't mean to...
It's not a lie.
Like, I literally... It never dawned on me.
I had always seen him as like a brother in a way because of how much he had helped me.
And I said, yeah, you know what?
Why not? I showed up at the airport and I start walking down the hall and suddenly I make eye contact with him and I immediately went, ah, fuck. This is something completely different.
And it's like the look that women know of, oh, he's interested now.
And then the whole trip, I was just having panic attacks, like breaking down in front of him, telling him, like, I'm freaking out, like hiding in corners, like saying, I need a break, like, and he wasn't, he wasn't doing anything.
He was just standing there being nice and cordial.
And it was just very, I was just hyperventilating the entire time.
I don't know if you would like to put some input, because I know you're about to say something.
I'm mostly just making a lot of sounds.
Because... Okay, so let's just back up for a sec before we get to the husband thing.
All right. And you've been listening to the show.
I just want to know how blunt do you want me to be?
Because I'm happy to...
Very blunt? That's why I called. Okay, okay.
Very blunt. So listen, of course, massive sympathies for your childhood and all of that.
But you also were milking your looks a little bit for resources or maybe more than a little bit, right?
Yeah. I'm still listening.
I'm sorry, I didn't know if you wanted to respond.
Oh yeah, no, I mean... So the fact that you were kind of used as a front for this...
Again, I don't know if it's fraudulent explicitly or something that was kind of untoward.
So you were kind of used as a shiny object to get people to give up their money.
You said you made millions of dollars.
And we can understand that if you were like a 300-pound woman, that wouldn't really have happened.
And then you do the waitering at the high-end place, make a lot of money.
That's kind of based on the looks and all of that and obviously I'm not saying that's all you are, but I'm just
saying that there is a certain amount of
exploitation of looks here and I just I wasn't sure what your relationship was with that
I mean Being good-looking is fine
And and I've sort of I'm talking to my daughter about pretty privileged and all of that and being good-looking is
fine I've no no particular issue with it, but I
Don't know if it's fair to say but my feeling is that it's something like
But there was a certain amount of exploitation that you were performing as well as being
Exploited because I'm curious what your relationship is to the victim narrative because one of the things that happens
Correct. Because those are the two sides of the equation.
Like we've been exploited and therefore we also know how to exploit.
And I wasn't sure what your thoughts were on that.
I'm very aware of it.
I was very good at it when I was a kid because that's how I got out.
Right. And I do notice when I do it to people.
I'm very good at it. And that's The victim mentality or I have caught myself doing it and that's kind of the problem I'm having is I'm trying to figure out if I still am currently having a victim mentality and that I've been exploited and betrayed or if this is something that I should worry about.
If that makes sense.
Well, so here's the danger of being exploited is that you also know how to exploit.
And if you combine that with, you know, a great figure and good looks.
And listen, I'm trying not to harp on your looks so much.
I think this is an important aspect for this part of your life because I think it defined this part of your life in many ways.
And it gave you options and resources that you otherwise wouldn't have had.
And it's really, really hard to escape the pattern of exploitation.
Exploitation is basically when we get resources by explicitly or implicitly promising something we really don't intend to deliver.
And so it's hard to get out of the pattern of exploitation unless we also, like when we've been exploited, we know, but unless we also look in the mirror and say, well, yeah, I have the capacity to Exploit others as well.
And I think that's the challenge.
And I'm not sure...
A, whether...
I don't want to say what you have or haven't done.
It seems to me that there's indications about that.
But I wasn't sure what your relationship was to that.
Yeah. Well, definitely the looks is something that I've been thinking about a lot lately because, of course, being 26, I'm entering kind of...
I'm going. I'm going there.
And when I said the clock is ticking, I'm very aware of it.
Which is why I'm...
That's kind of one of my biggest fears I've been having lately is with the beauty fading because most of my life, 26 years now, has been really exploited based on my looks.
What happens when the looks run out?
That's been something that...
No, no. This is the thing.
You said exploited based upon looks, right?
And I'm trying to say to remember that you have also exploited others based on looks.
Correct. Yes, correct.
So anyway, but yeah, go ahead.
Sorry, I'm just thinking about what you just said.
And I say this with great sympathy.
You know, one of the things that men get mad at is how easy life is for attractive young women.
And I sort of, what I want to remind people is that it's very hard for anyone to handle that kind of power.
Yeah. And, you know, if most men were given that same kind of power, I mean, I think most men imagined that if they were in the position of being an attractive young woman, that they would handle it totally differently.
And it's like, no, you wouldn't.
Because, especially if you've been traumatized, then that kind of issue.
It's virtually inevitable because you've been powerless throughout most of your childhood.
And then when you go out into the world and you're an attractive young woman, then you have power for the first time, really, I would say.
And when we go from not having any power to having a lot of power, I mean, everybody imagines, well, if I won the lottery, man, I'd handle it totally well.
And it's like, yeah, probably not, though.
Probably not. I mean, most people don't.
And so, yeah, so I say this without like, ooh, you're an evil exploiter, but...
No, it's true.
You certainly did have that ability and it sounds like a lot of the success that you had when you were younger was to do with, I mean, it's a terrible combination.
If you're physically attractive and unparented, then you really are something to be pointed at people as a resource extraction machine in a way.
Yeah. Yeah.
All right, I just wanted to check on that.
Okay, so we've got to you having panic attacks on the road to Colorado.
Do I have that right? Yes, yes.
And this was like, yeah, this sounds like great.
She's having panic attacks coming on vacation.
Let's have a relationship.
Yeah, so we ended up going back and...
We continued being friends, but now, of course, I knew that it was different, that he was actively kind of forcing me.
Wait, what? Did we just skip over the whole vacation here?
The whole vacation was just me having panic attacks, me communicating to him that I wasn't interested in him, and how I just saw him like a brother, and he said, I'm totally fine with that.
That's not my intentions.
We went about, we had a lunch, we had a dinner, had a nice time, and then flew back.
That's it. It was a very respectful, here's your room, here's my room, like whatever.
Got it, got it. We came back and of course, I knew that he was actively trying to court me, but as you said, as the exploiter that I was, I actually enjoyed the attention.
I don't want you to find yourself as an exploiter.
Please don't get that one-dimensional thing out of what I said.
He said that maybe I have the capacity to exploit people from time to time.
I'm an exploiter! No, no, no, no.
I exercise from time to time.
That doesn't mean I'm an Olympian.
So just be aware that I'm not trying to put you...
Just be aware of that possibility and that actuality.
But please, I'm begging you, don't define yourself that way.
That's just a... Okay.
So, he's still trying to...
And I assume his girlfriend is deep in the rear view, like she's gone at this point?
Yes. Can you hear me?
Hello? Sorry about that. Can you hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you now. All right, right.
Sorry about that. My internet just kicked out for a sec, but we're back.
We're back. So, yeah, we were just talking about how he was...
The girlfriend at the time, when you first...
Stayed in one of his places for a month that that girlfriend was gone and he was single at this point?
I'm sorry, you cut out and then you came back in.
No problem. Sorry, we were just saying that the guy who became your husband, when he was kind of wooing you post-Colorado that his girlfriend was gone at this point, he was single, is that right?
Yes, that was about a year apart.
So a year after they broke up, that's when he invited me to Colorado.
Because right after they broke up, I blocked him for about six months.
And what happened with the controlling woman who told you to block him?
I stopped being friends with her because she called me.
At one point, she sat down after I had disconnected from him.
And it was very weird because when I told him I didn't want to be friends for a while and take a break because she advised me to do so, I kind of resented her because it was like cutting off the one person that was honest to me in my life.
And we ended up having a lunch one day and she called me her coach and my mentor and that really pissed me off because it almost seemed like a form of dominance.
Instead of being my friend, she was trying to assert her dominance over me.
So to me it was...
Oh, she said she was your coach or mentor.
Exactly. She said that she was my coach and my mentor.
And that just, it was, it rubbed me the wrong way.
So I ended up canceling her out as a friend and just stopped that relationship.
And then about three months later is when I added him back.
Okay, got it, got it.
So how did his wooing stuff go post-Colorado?
We kept having dinners and we kept having talks and I really enjoyed our talks and I really enjoyed the time I spent with him because he was the only honest person with me, like I said.
I really started opening up about things that I've never opened up about before and I felt safe.
And finally he just, it kept getting weirder and weirder to me because it was almost as if I was stuck with the choice of lose a friend because I'd lost all of my, I'd been betrayed and lost all my boyfriends in the past.
So I thought if I have sex with this guy and if I enter into a relationship with this guy, he's just gonna leave me.
So it's gonna be a double whammy of not only am I gonna be betrayed, I'm going to lose my best friend.
So then I'm going to be stuck in a world again of people who just lie to me because I look good.
So I really think that that's what I was battling with the last year that he was courting me is I just really was fighting the thought that I'm going to have to get in a relationship with this guy and he's going to leave me.
So why chance it?
Why not just continue the friendship?
But he finally got to a point that he just said he gave me an ultimatum and said, I can't be your friend.
This is not going to work.
I'm either going to pursue you or I'm not.
So I ended up dating him, started dating him.
And in the first three months of dating him, I had this one guy that I had been workout partners with for a very long time.
And the same kind of thing for him.
I had like three guys in my life that were all Like, they wanted to hang out with me all the time, but they wanted to have sex with me, but I would never allow it.
Like, I would never say yes or, like, even get in a position where I'd be stuck to have to make that decision.
It was always a, let's work out or let's go eat something or anything that would get me out and about that wouldn't corner me.
And I got into, like, this delusional state that, oh, these are just my friends and I can have guy friends because that's the thing nowadays.
And he, of course, was the first person to say, hey, you can't have guy friends.
That's not a thing. I'm not trying to be your guy friend.
I'm trying to date you. So if you're hanging out with other guys, they're trying to date you.
And I had this one guy at the time that I had been working out with and he was my workout partner.
And so three months into me and my husband dating, I was still having like workouts with this guy.
Like I would go work out with him or I'd go do a class with him and My husband saw it and he was just not okay with it.
He had really bad issues with it.
He kept asking me if I wanted to be in the relationship or if I was trying to date this guy.
It ended up being so weird and so I finally just cut one of the guys out.
I said, you know what? I can't be around you anymore.
This is not respectful. I can't do this anymore.
What did you mean by not respectful?
Not respectful to my husband at the time because He had told me that...
Wait, hang on. You got married in this story?
No, no, no. Oh, back then.
Before he was your husband. Yeah.
Okay, got it. So this was three months into us actually dating, sleeping together, like serious.
So he was wondering why I was still hanging out with this guy.
Because, of course, I'm supposed to be happy.
I'm supposed to be in this relationship.
I want to be honest.
I think I was leaving the door open.
Because I wanted to make sure I'd made the right decision.
And what were your doubts?
I mean, you say you've been with your current husband back then, like three months at that point, right?
Yeah. Okay.
Okay, what were your doubts?
I mean you said he was very honest with you, right?
He was a very honest person.
I guess you knew about his...
His history, his past, his porn addiction, like all of this kind of stuff had come out at this point?
I think the main thing was, I was wondering, is this the best I can get?
Sorry, I'm not sure if you heard the question.
I'm just going to repeat it. So you had said that your current husband had been like, he was the only honest person around you, this, that and the other.
So is it fair to say that he, and you'd opened up to him about a lot to do with your past, is it fair to say that He had told you about his childhood, his history, and his own pornography addiction and so on.
Yes, that's actually what made me like him.
He actually was the first person to actually open up about anything like that.
Okay, and what were the characteristics that you thought you might be able to improve upon
if you thought you could do better?
At the time...
Hmm.
I would say really at the time all I could say is that I wanted him to make more money.
Ah, right. Okay. And the other guy was making more money?
No. The other guy...
Wait, what? The reason I hung out with the other guy is because my husband...
He won't work out with me.
So he doesn't at all ever get in like a competitive space with me.
So the other guy was willing to do that.
So that's why I was like, oh, well, if my husband's not going to work out with me, I want someone in a competitive space with me.
So I'm going to have this guy as a workout partner.
And that's why I had workouts with him.
Because I didn't have a workout partner.
Yes. Okay, got it.
That's it. There was nothing else.
Um, literally nothing else.
But... Got it. And that's what I kind of explained to my husband.
I said, well, can you do workout classes with me?
Because, like, I need this competitive, like, atmosphere.
I want someone to enjoy the workout with me.
And he's just, no, I don't want to do that.
It's not my thing. So...
About it.
Right. Now, was...
And you don't have to get into details of his salary, but is it fair to say that his salary...
Was quite a bit less than the six figures you were making in your late teens?
No, he was actually making more than me.
Oh, so he's making well into the six figures, right?
Yes. Okay. And you wanted him to be...
What salary would have been ideal for you to say?
Him or some other guy, let's say.
What was the salary you were looking for, do you think?
Well... It's hard to say because I was desensitized to money.
So in my mind, it was like I wanted the top 0001%.
Oh, like some guy making a million or two million a year?
Yeah, exactly.
Because that's who I had worked around for so long.
Yeah, but those guys were scumbags, weren't they?
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so you wanted super wealthy guy.
And were you making six figures at this?
You said he was making more.
I'm not sure what you were making at this point.
At the time that we started dating, we were making the same.
I had worked my way back up and I was making about the same as him.
Ah, okay. Got it, got it.
So, I guess something tipped the balance in his favor eventually, right?
Yes. Was that more of a question of what was it?
Yeah, you can expand on that if you want.
Sorry. I finally saw him in a dominant position because he had so many people around him using him and they were just dysfunctional freaks, if I can say. And I didn't even want to be seen out with them because I just didn't like them.
I didn't I didn't know why he hung out with them.
It almost discredited him.
And so the minute I... So you're saying he was in the music industry?
No, but pretty close.
Okay, close enough, right? Yeah.
So, but once he disconnected from those people, I could see him and I together.
I was like, okay, well, if he's not around these people, and now that they're gone...
I actually see something with him.
And I see him moving towards kind of like an overall goal of like what I want as a husband.
And that's what just clicked in my brain.
So did he change professions or just change particular companies?
Changed professions.
Okay. And was that partly as a result of you saying like, you know, these people are gross?
It was completely because of me.
Oh, okay. Okay. Got it.
And did he take a salary dip or was he able to sort of maintain it?
We both did. It was kind of like we sprung ourselves.
We went from two professions of making six figures to entrepreneurship overnight.
So just everything we had saved, everything we had done, we went after something.
And so we were pretty broke for about a year together.
Our first year was just broke.
No, sorry, the first year of marriage or how did that go?
First year of dating. Okay, first year of dating, right, okay.
And then it was really hard and during that time I was questioning if I had made the right decision and like entrepreneurship, at the very last minute when you think that you can't hold on anymore, it just switched.
Been there. Yeah.
And then we kind of, for the past two years, we've, it's, It's been extreme work on both of our parts so it's almost as if like we've just been really pouring everything into the business the past two years and now that we're done and we're like sitting back it's now I'm trying to pick up the pieces and go okay are we good and I'm trying to have a child now so I'm like trying to figure it all out so that's kind of what happened when it We went into entrepreneurship, and now we're kind of here.
And how has, I guess, you've been together, is it married three, together four, or how's that?
It's been friends for six, together for two and a half, and then married for only six months.
Got it. Okay, okay.
And your various addictions, I guess, or addiction, how under control is that?
Mine was drugs.
And when I say drugs, I mean Adderall stimulants to help me perform in fitness.
And I really, really love them.
I really never wanted to get off of them.
I've never tried it.
What's the, I mean, just boundless energy kind of thing?
Or how does that work? Oh, it's God's drugs.
Now, don't sell it too hard here, but just give me a sense.
I don't mean to sell it.
But no, yes. It just helps you just hyper-perform.
People like to call it the limitless pill.
It's the thing that just puts you hustling 24-7, never stop, unlimited energy.
It's just amazing. And then, of course, about a year in, you start getting your mood swings, which is why I quit, because I noticed I didn't want...
To bring that into the relationship.
And so I kind of had to make a decision about just stopping that.
So mine was drugs and it was porn.
And we walked.
Of course we listened to you.
And so I've listened and listened and listened.
And I finally was like, you know what?
This is extremely unhealthy.
I'm never going to have a connection with my husband if I continue this.
So I quit, I would say about a year ago.
And I've never touched it again.
He has a similar addiction of not drugs, but of porn.
And that kind of leads into the thing that I was scared of that plays along in him adding women is he fell into porn again.
And I just found this out like a week ago.
Was it something he told you about?
Or was it something that you discovered?
I discovered. I asked him, we were sitting down, and I asked him if I could find something on his phone for work.
He hands me his phone, because he's open with his phone.
He's like, here, you can look at anything.
He's like, I trust you.
I want you to trust me. So I pull up his phone, and I went to the internet, and the first thing that I see is Pornhub.
And I can see any, of course, you know that.
I'm very aware of every sign and symbol, and so I see that, and I look up at him.
And I do my best to not judge because it's not judgment that I want to come out.
It's more of understanding.
And I don't keep anything back.
I don't like sit and ponder anything like I want to communicate.
I want to figure out a solution.
So I asked him, I said, are you watching porn again?
And he said, yeah.
And he kind of looked shocked that I had seen it, like he hadn't hidden it well enough.
And I said, Really?
How many times is this often?
Is this one time?
I'm not trying to...
I just want to know.
He had been gone for three days on a business trip.
He was like, well, it's just during those three days I was alone.
I know he's going to listen to this, but I want to make sure.
He goes, I'm a horny person.
I'm thinking to myself, it was almost like Punch the gut, because in my mind, I'm like, well, then why don't you call me?
Right. And how did that conversation go as a whole?
He kind of just brushed off shame.
He looked like he was ashamed of himself.
And I didn't want to be judgmental, like I said, so I kind of just stopped questioning, because typically I escalate.
So, cause I want to answer.
I like want to know like a clear path of a solution.
So I'm like, okay, well, I gave him this phone back and I went to bed and of course I like thought on it.
And then I came back the next day and I said, Hey, I think we need to like talk about this because this could harm our marriage.
Like I don't look at this stuff anymore because when I look at it, I can't get sexually uproused by you and I can't connect with you anymore.
And I was like, and I kind of notice it from you lately.
Like, It's, I was like, and this may sound horrible, but I said, I don't think you're thinking of me when we're having sex if you're watching that stuff.
Because I know what my brain does when I used to watch it.
So I don't know if, I think that you need to think on this and I don't think that this is healthy.
And he kind of looked at me and he goes, no, I totally agree.
And I said, so are you going to continue watching it?
Is this like a thing you've done multiple times?
And he's like, yeah, I have been looking at it a lot lately.
To me, again, that was like another punch in the gut.
And I'm like, oh, it's not just one time.
This is bad. And to me, it's like, wow, am I... Do I... Sorry.
Sorry, go ahead.
To me, it's like, well, do I not attract him anymore?
Am I not sexual enough?
Do I not do things that he would like me to do?
And I'm going through all this stuff in my head.
And I'm like, it's... Sad that he has to go and look at something else to get aroused and that he can't just wait three days to come back and see me or he can't let alone call me.
So I'm sitting here going, what's wrong with me?
And I explain that to him.
And he kind of just goes, I totally understand.
I get how it could harm our marriage.
Yes, I I'll, I don't remember his specific words that he said, I won't do it anymore, or I'll work on it.
I don't remember the specifics, so I can't speak on that.
And then the next thing I said is, I said, hey, a year ago, I found you adding females that lived in our vicinity, like they live in our area, and you're liking their posts, and they're very sexual posts, like their naked photos, like basically naked photos, like it's Instagram.
And I'm like, You had me delete my social media that was provocative back in the day.
And I did it because I want to respect you and I want to respect our family and I want to build a family.
And I'm not doing that anymore.
So I deleted mine, but I'm catching you going out and adding these females and liking their photos.
And in my mind, as a woman, and again, I'm not speaking for a woman.
I'm speaking for me as a woman.
If A man adds me on Instagram and I am portraying provocative photos.
And he goes in and likes a photo of me in a bikini or something.
That to me is a recognition of, oh, he's interested.
And if he at all looks interesting to me, then I'm going to engage.
And then the doors open. So in a way to me, this is what I explained to him.
I said, in a way to me, it's like you're leaving the door open.
Because these women are within a vicinity of meeting.
You're liking their photos, their provocative photos, and you're following them.
What's your intention with these women?
Are they going to work with you?
I want to know the intention of adding them.
And he goes, well, I won't do it anymore.
I totally understand. And then he deleted them, and a year goes by.
And I said, and now we're sitting here today.
You're watching porn, and it's scaring me.
But then also... I'm finding that you're adding one or two women every other month and you're liking their stuff.
And did you go back on what you said with me?
And he kind of didn't want to give me an answer.
He's like, well, I don't think you understand.
It's kind of like men with a billboard of a hot woman.
Like we see it and we like it and everything.
And we went, oh, there's a hot woman.
And it's just a billboard.
And I was like, yeah, but that's not adding someone onto your feed.
Like, that's wanting to see them on a repeat basis.
I'm trying to understand this.
Well, and the vicinity thing too, right?
The geographical vicinity is a little different, right?
Exactly. And he just kind of was stumped in his look.
Like, he didn't want to make a decision.
And he looked at me and he said, well, I have to think on this, because clearly you've been thinking on this for some time.
But... He goes, it feels as if I'm being given rules.
And I said, what do you mean rules?
This is, to me, it's a respect thing of you're married, you're representing me, you love me, like, I don't look at other men, I don't add other men.
What is this? Is this normal behavior for men?
Like, is this something that we just have to live with and we have to go on about our day and know that you're going to be liking women's photos and stuff and it's just, it is what it is?
Or is this You still opening the door.
And that's kind of...
And I don't mean to get off this, but there is a specific thing I do feel like I need to say that happened before that has caused me to kind of freak out.
And this always happens when he tends to leave for work because about a month ago, he had a business partner that used to really like me.
This was a long time ago.
And he tried to date me and then tried to court me.
And my husband kind of shut it down.
And so the guy got all angry. Like a month ago, this guy was making a move on you?
No, no, no. Like a year ago.
I'm trying to give you some background.
This business partner of his a year ago tried to court me and date me and everything.
And I didn't see it.
And he shut it down. So the guy got mad about it.
And of course, now my husband's with me dating me.
So he thought that this may hinder whatever project they're working on together would be if the guy found out that we're married, if this makes sense.
I'm sorry, so how long have you been married for?
I've been married for six months.
Six months, okay. So a year ago, this business partner of your husband didn't know that you and your husband were a couple?
Yes, correct. They haven't been working together and they just recently started together.
And so how did he not know you were a couple?
Just because your husband hasn't told?
Yeah. And why do you think your husband didn't say anything?
Because he thought that it would shut down whatever they had business-wise going on.
And he communicated that to me.
He goes, I don't know what to do.
He goes, because it was that big of a deal that the guy would have been pissed.
So he kind of just...
We kind of made the decision together not to tell the guy.
I said, well, I don't think it's best for you to tell him.
Honestly, I didn't see much problem in it until now.
Sorry, I'm still a little lost here.
Okay. So you've been married six months.
A year ago, we'll just call this guy Bob.
So a year ago, your husband's business partner, Bob, made a play for you, right?
Mm-hmm. How long had your now husband, then boyfriend, worked with Bob?
They were just off and on acquaintances.
They were trying to do a couple deals.
Entrepreneurship, again. You kind of do a couple deals with someone.
Doesn't work out. You go about your way.
Six months later, you come back.
You got a deal to work on.
Does that make sense? Okay.
And how did Bob know you, though?
Bob tried to recruit me to work for him.
And his play behind it was that he was actually trying to marry me, if that makes sense.
But how did Bob know you?
Through my husband.
So he met you through your husband, right?
Yes, at the apartment I was staying at.
At the apartment you were staying at, which was not your husband's apartment?
Was my husband's apartment.
It was the one I was staying at when they were away.
When who were away? When my husband and his girlfriend at the time were away.
Oh, so we're back a couple of years is when Bob met you.
So Bob met you years ago?
Yes, correct. Okay, and then he then made a play for you a year ago after not being in touch with you for a couple of years, is that right?
Correct. Okay.
And he just kind of swooped in and wanted to hire you and so on?
Yes. But his real intention was to marry me.
And my husband noticed that.
And when he noticed that, he kind of killed it.
He basically told me to not associate with the guy anymore.
I'm sorry. I mean, so he says, I want you to work for me.
Then wouldn't you just say, I'm an entrepreneur?
I'm not available for working, but thank you for the offer?
Well, I did begin to work for him.
Once my husband noticed it, he told me to get away from him.
So the guy had been very hopeful that he was going to lock me down.
Did he communicate that to you directly, or how did that play out in your working relationship with Bob?
No, my husband communicated it to me, and it became very evident afterwards.
What became evident? His desire to marry you?
Yes, correct. And how did it become evident?
What did you see? He got very angry.
When you didn't want to work with him?
Yeah, he got angry at my husband.
And what did he say to your husband?
He just...
He, in a passive-aggressive way, just told him that...
I don't know that he...
He told me that he didn't like my husband and that I shouldn't listen to him and I should come work for him.
And then it was a bunch of back and forth and But sorry, but you'd already, how long had you been dating your husband at this point a year ago?
No, no, we weren't dating.
We were courting at the time.
It was that whole weird phase of...
Oh, where you had the other guy who worked out with you and your husband who didn't?
Yeah, correct.
Okay, so I'm so sorry.
So I just got a little lost on the timeline.
It's a hard story. No, no, I get it.
We might need like a whiteboard or something here or just me with a better memory.
So your husband and you've been married for six months and how many months before you got married did you and your husband get together as boyfriend and girlfriend?
Two years. Sorry, I'm confused again.
So If your husband and you were together for two years before you got married six months ago, right?
Then how is this guy making a play for you and your husband...
I'm sorry, that could be where the math is off.
That could be where the math is off.
It happened during the courting.
The thing that I'm talking about that I was alluding to happened in the past year.
So him trying to marry me and everything, the other guy, that happened prior to the dating.
So let's just say two and a half years ago.
Two and a half years ago during the courting time is when the guy tried to hire me with his real intentions of marrying me.
My husband completely killed it.
The guy got angry because he knew that my husband killed it and they kind of went their separate ways.
Fast forward two and a half years and We've been dating for two years.
We're married for six.
In those six months, my husband and him have a deal that comes back up, and he's too nervous to tell the guy that the girl that he killed everything with, he's now married to.
Does that make sense? Right.
And so then Bob makes a play for you during this last round?
No. So Bob invites my husband to come out to a different place Area.
I can't say where. So he flies out and he meets with him.
And because Bob thinks that my husband is single, Bob takes him out for the night.
Okay. And so my husband's out for the night.
I've never had trust issues with my husband.
Never. And that night, and I'm kind of a little iffy because this guy has been telling my husband, oh, I'm going to, what do you want me to do for you?
I can set you up. And my husband's kind of telling me all this, and he's like, this guy is just weird.
Oh, like I can set you up with an escort?
Exactly. He's like, I can set you up with girls, yada, yada, yada.
And that's kind of already making me nervous that my husband's telling me this.
But then when he flies out, I'm like, oh, my husband is trustworthy.
He would never look at another woman.
He wouldn't do anything. And then that evening, I go into our office, and I hear a ding.
And I realized that his iPad, it was on the desk, and I go over to it, and again, curiosity, in my past relationship, that's how I found out I was being cheated on.
So, out of curiosity, I pick it up, and I open it up, and there it is, a picture of a woman texting my husband going, had a great time tonight, and it was like 3 a.m.
in the morning. Hmm.
And he hadn't called me, he hadn't texted me, and my mind is now racing, and I'm like, what does this mean?
How did this woman get your number?
And why is she sending you photos?
I mean, I get that, but I have slightly earlier questions.
Yes, correct.
Why is your husband going back into business with a guy who wants to marry you when your husband is already dating you
and doesn't say anything?
That's what I... yeah.
I mean, you knew this was happening.
I kind of feel at fault, though, because I told him not to say anything.
I'm the one who told him not to say anything.
I mean, you knew this was happening, right?
Knew what was happening.
I'm sorry, you knew that your husband was going into business with Bob?
Again? Yes.
And so, what was the conversation around, well, hang on, Bob really wants to marry you, Your husband wants to do some business with Bob.
Was the agreement, oh, we'll just pretend that your husband is single and you're still available?
Was that the pretense?
It's really sad to say but yeah, that's what kind of agreement him and I came to that we didn't want to kill the
deal just because That
So is it somewhat fair to say and listen, I'm not judging here
I'm just trying to understand the mechanics of the situation. So I'm not trying to come us come across all Old
Testament here But is it fairly safe to say that the possibility of a
relationship with you was kind of dangled over Bob in order for your
Husband to do the deal with him Thank you.
I feel like that's, yeah.
I mean, that seems vaguely pimpy to me.
Yeah. To be perfectly blunt, I mean, you did say, and I could be wrong, I'm just trying to sort of feel my way through the situation, right?
And you participated in this, right?
Correct, yeah. So you're like the bait, in a sense, right?
Yeah. I mean, listen, if I'm wrong, please tell me, because I certainly don't want to get this, it's a very complex situation, right?
I just want to do him justice because I'm the one who told him that I didn't want Bob to know so that it wouldn't kill it.
Well, yes, but if the only reason the deal would exist is because Bob thinks he has a play for you and you're married...
Oh, no, no, no. Bob didn't...
No. That's where I think I messed up, is that Bob and I have had zero communication and he, like, for two and a half years now, we don't even come up in each other.
I thought it would kill the deal because...
It's kind of, I didn't know if in guy code it was like an asshole thing to do that you kill one guy's ability to marry a girl and then you go and marry that girl if that would have pissed him off, if that makes sense.
Okay, so I get it.
So it was that, sorry, and so I retract what I said earlier then.
So you weren't dangled as a potential date, or if Bob had found out that your husband was married to you, it wouldn't be like, oh no, Bob can't have a relationship.
It was that Bob might get mad at your husband later.
Exactly. For saying, don't date this girl, and then scooping you up.
What he fucked up.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's it.
Okay, so then your husband had to pretend to be single in order for this deal to go through, or at least that was the perception.
Is that right? Correct. Okay, my apologies then.
I totally get what you're saying, and I was totally wrong about the four things.
But when we were talking, but when him and I were talking about this, I didn't see it as in...
Oh, he's going out there to party and all of this.
He's going to have one dinner with this guy and he's going to go home.
Because as a respectful husband, that's what you do.
And I'm not talking about what Bob thinks or whatever.
It's just like, if I went out with girls and they thought I was single, I would still go, you know what?
I'm going back to my room.
Have a good night. No matter how much they thought I was single or they wanted to hook me up, I'm going back to my room.
Good night. It weirded me out.
That he decided, he made the decision to go out with the guy that he knows wants to set him up with escorts.
And that he knows... Sorry, did he know that ahead of time?
Yes, he did. Okay, got it.
Because he repeatedly told me that the guy was going, oh, do you want me to set you up with anyone?
Do you want to do anything?
Do you want to go out and party? And so going back to it, when I received that photo, it just floored me.
And it wasn't just one photo.
There was three different women who texted him, and it was like this weird name he gave them, like, let's just say it's David.
They texted him and said, hey, David, had a great night.
And then another girl, two hours later, said, hey, is this David?
And then another girl, like random numbers.
And so the next morning, I'm Wait, wait, I'm so sorry, just before the next morning thing, so let's just rewind for a second, and again, I'm taking flybys at this particular conversation.
Yes, I'm sorry for the story. No, no, no, listen, it's not your fault at all.
I'm sure I'm jumping to a bunch of conclusions, so I'll own that.
Okay, so Bob, before your husband goes out to do business with Bob, Bob is saying, I'm going to hook you up with prostitutes, right, or escorts or whatever, right?
Basically, in a way, yes.
Sorry, did he not say, do you want me to get you someone or do you want me to hook you up with someone?
No, he did. Yes.
Now, that's not a business.
I've been in business for a long time.
I've been an entrepreneur for a long time.
And I've probably had, I don't know, 75 fairly high-level client meetings at locations and on-site, off-site, that kind of stuff, right?
Never once has there been any talk of hooking anybody up with anyone.
Yeah. That's just not a thing, right?
In the business world.
And I've worked with, you know, probably a hundred top-tier companies over the course of my business career.
And, you know, the raunchiest thing that would ever happen is sometimes we'd take them out to a comedy show where there'd be some swearing.
And that was about it.
So I'm sort of trying to understand...
Because your initial issue with your husband was that he was involved with all these sleazebags, right?
So why is he going out to this guy who wants to hook him up with girls or something like that?
Because God knows what that actually means, right?
So why would you get involved in business with someone like that?
Was it just like too much money or what is the incentive there?
Yeah, it was that.
And part of me is, I feel like it's me because I'm continually, sorry, I'm trying to push him to make more money all the time.
So in a way, I feel guilty because I feel like I'm going, oh, you need to talk to this person.
You need to push this deal through so we can make more money.
You need to do this. You need to do this.
So, in a way, I feel guilty because I feel like I played a part in this.
Well, I mean, I appreciate the guilt and all of that, and it shows a good deal of moral sensitivity.
It's completely useless in this conversation, so if you can try your best to shrug it off, guilt won't help.
Okay, so this is probably exactly the kind of guy that you wanted your husband to get away from in the past.
Is that fair to say? Yeah, yes.
Okay, so... You, and we'll just give you some ownership, obviously your husband has ownership, but so you were kind of pushing him to make money and you were pushing him towards this guy because this guy can help your husband make money, right?
Yes. And you said, yes, go forward to this guy who wants to hook you up with girls, go forward with this guy and pretend, like take off your wedding ring, pretend you're not married to make money, right?
To deny our marriage, deny me to go and make some money.
Is that right? Yeah.
Dude. Do you know how much money I would take to pretend I wasn't married?
Do you know how much it would cost me to have me deny my wife and disavow being married?
And I don't say this like, oh, look at me, I'm so good.
I'm not perfect, obviously, but I think if I put it in this way, Go and be paid to pretend I don't exist.
Go and do business with this... seems kind of like a sleazebag who wants to hook you up with girls as part of a deal,
which is not part of any kind of deal that I've ever been a part of.
Go pretend you're not married to make money.
Deny me, disavow me, I mean, if I put it in that kind of way, do you see how this is kind of like a slippery slope?
Yeah. And I'm not blaming you for what your husband did.
He's responsible, of course, right?
But I'm talking about how these things don't just come out of nowhere, these kinds of messes.
They come out of a choice where you say, okay, well, we can go and make money, but we have to lie to do it, right?
Your husband has to pretend that he's not married, right?
Yeah. And lying and disavowing your primary relationship in order to make some money is not the highest moral ideal, is it fair to say?
Yeah. And so these things, they start this way.
And philosophy can only stop things at the beginning, if that makes sense.
Like philosophy is about the little decisions that snowball.
Like once things have snowballed, philosophy can't do much, right?
Like nutrition, you know, this nutrition exercise, they can help prevent a heart attack, but when you're having a heart attack, you don't call your nutritionist or your personal trainer.
You've got to call emergency, right?
Yeah. So for me, I always like to rewind.
This is true of my own life when things go awry.
I always like to rewind and say, okay, what was I tempted by at the beginning, right?
And the fact that there was this kind of, in a sense, a devilish compromise, which is, yeah, we'll deny our love.
Yeah, we'll deny being married. Yeah, we'll lie to this guy to make some money.
And the idea that things don't get worse from there is one of the things, it's one of these delusions that philosophy always aims to dispel.
Yeah. Like when you make that kind of decision, as a couple, you're kind of, in a sense, and in a sense, you're portraying each other for money.
Or you're betraying your marriage or your vows or your love or the truth.
I mean, you're betraying the truth for money, right?
And I'm not trying to give you any sort of backlashings here or anything like that.
I'm just trying to point out the causality because you're looking near the end, but as a philosopher guy, I have to look near the beginning and say, okay, well, how did we end up in this situation where this was even an issue, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So, tell me about your relationship with money.
It's funny because I was just talking about this at a live stream last night.
So tell me about your relationship with money.
Why do you want your husband to make more money?
I'm scared of death, of going back into poverty.
Bye.
Thank you.
Is that a risk at the moment?
I mean, are you guys teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, or are you about to be evicted?
No, but in my life, it's always kind of been like that.
It's poverty and then doing well, but then you make it...
It's kind of like entrepreneurship.
You make money, and you think you finally made it, and then you fall back.
And then you think you made it again, and then you fall back.
And I'm just...
I've hit rock bottom multiple times, and I just don't want to go back.
So I just... Yes, but you hit rock bottom at least one of the times that I know about.
You hit rock bottom because you got involved with some pretty sleazy people, right?
Yeah. So how do you solve that problem by, again, getting involved with what sounds like a fairly sleazy guy?
Yeah. Now, how does your husband get the communication that you want more money or you want him to go get more money?
I mean, you say, go do this deal, go make this deal, go make the money?
Well, we've been working together for...
We've been in a very...
Like I said, we invested into a business and it was just very toxic for us because we were both very stressed out about it for two years and...
I was having to do a lot of manual labor for two years, so it took a toll on my health.
What do you mean, sorry, manual labor?
Can you help me understand that? We own, let's just say, a farm.
And we've had issues with it, and I had to be very hands-on for two years.
And so I became like an operator, you'd say.
And I ended up picking up the slack, and it really took a toll on me.
Because I'm the type that I'm like, Whatever needs to be done, let's do it.
No matter how fit you are, female bodies and heavy manual labor don't really go hand in hand, right?
Trust me, I've learned that and I don't wish it upon any woman.
I learned that the hard way.
But that took a toll on us and I'm sorry, I got off track.
So you tried something that was, I mean, I assume was your husband working this physical labor with you as well?
Yes. We communicate a lot on every business or every deal or whatever we're doing just because we push it back and forth to see what we can figure out on it.
We're really open together about communicating that.
Each day I just ask him how everything's going.
How to maneuver the deal, just whatever.
And so I'm very encouraging.
I used to be obsessed with money.
Sorry. I used to be obsessed with money last year until this year because this year has been a great year for us and we're finally making a lot of money.
But now that I have it, I'm kind of scared at what risk the more money we make.
How our relationship will hurt more and more, and if, believe me.
So it's kind of like, what did I trade for the money that's scaring me?
Well, in this case, you traded a little bit your marriage for the money, right?
Yeah. Right. Okay, so let me tell you something from my perspective, my argument.
I'm not going to say this is true in every case, but every case that I've ever talked about with money...
Money is never about the money.
Money issues, money worries, it's never about the money.
It's always about something else.
Now, it would seem to me, over the course of your life, my friend, that you have had very little security.
And this is really what's going on in your marriage right now, right?
You're thinking you're trying to make a baby, but there's this guy liking naked...
Does Instagram do naked pictures?
I don't even know. You said they were naked pictures of the girls?
They're almost naked.
Oh, like butt floss bikini kind of stuff, right?
Yeah. Okay. And what's happening right now is you don't feel secure.
And one of the things that I think, would you say that it's more or less the Instagram pictures as opposed to these three club girls texting your husband?
Which is worse. The club girls are definitely worse.
The exchange of a phone number, it scares me.
Right, right, right.
And, of course, I mean, I assume you've looked at his messages on his phone.
I assume that he's not messaging these Instagram girls, right?
No, he's not. Okay, so he's just, I don't know, liking them for the spank bank.
I don't know, right? But he's not messaging them.
Whereas with these other girls, he had some kind of interaction and gave them his phone number, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Which is a little crazy, right?
I mean, it's not like he's got a second secret phone, right?
So, I think that if you feel a lack of safety, a lack of security in your life...
Then, if I look at your life as a whole, and I'm not trying to dissect you like a frog here, but if I look at your life as a whole, for incredibly legitimate reasons, you were in grave danger as a child.
You know, if you have this pervy dad around, you have pornography around, you have these creeps around, you have your mother saying, oh, some guy touched you inappropriately when you were four, you don't even...
Like, you're in a very dangerous situation, and you're in a very dangerous situation in particular because of your physical attractiveness.
And, you know, I talked about this in a show a week or two ago, you know, this hot, crazy matrix, and it's like, oh, the hottest she is, the craziest she is.
It's like, well, one of the reasons for that is that creeps who creep on children...
Like the more attractive children.
And so beauty, physical beauty, can be a real curse.
And I've actually known more than one woman who was like, I've even talked to them on the show, who were like, you know, beauty was like the worst thing that ever happened to me.
I'm not saying that's true for you, but it is a risk factor.
And so it sounds to me like you got the beatings and these creeps and all of this and this very unorthodox religious approach that you were in.
So you didn't feel any security, right?
And then your mom is bullying you out when you're...
And maybe deep down she senses your dad's creepiness with you, or I don't know what it is, right?
Maybe she's trying to help you in her own twisted way.
But then you're kind of out.
And then, or at least before then, you're like, okay, my security will be my fitness.
I will be so attractive that I will never have to worry about living on the street.
So I'm going to work at exercise.
So then with the exercise and the physical attractiveness comes the money, right?
You say, okay, now I have the physical attractiveness.
I'm making six figures in my late teens, which is mind-boggling.
And I'm going to be secure.
And then that falls apart.
And you actually, the people who paid you end up, as you say, they were going after you and saying you were addicted to drugs and they were threatening and all this kind of stuff, right?
And so there's that betrayal, and what you feel is going to give you security, which is fitness, beauty, and money, ends up very, very badly.
And I'm jumping around a lot here, but I assume that the guy who you got the boob job for, you felt, okay, well, he's attracted to these other girls, Who have, you know, boobs for days or whatever, right?
And so I will get security if I have plastic surgery and I get breast implants.
Then I will be secure with this guy.
And, of course, that doesn't work either.
And so I think that there's a pattern here where you reach for things to gain security, right?
And they end up endangering you.
You reach for guys, they end up being abusive.
You reach for money, it ends up being corrupt.
And in this situation, if the pattern that I would see is, in this situation, you said, okay, this Bob guy can help us make a lot of money, but to do that, I have to disavow my marriage, right? So you say, okay, but the money...
We'll make us secure because we had this farm and it was really tough and, you know, I've got a line in my novel about this girl who tried chucking corn for a summer and it almost destroyed her back, right?
Yeah, that's what it said, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that level of physical labor, you know, I absolutely love and adore women, but, you know, human forklift trucks, they are not, right?
So, it seems to me that you keep reaching and reaching and reaching to try and find security.
And yet, in the process of reaching for that security, like, Bob is going to help my husband make a lot of money and that's going to make us secure.
Oh dear, Bob is a devil who's leading my husband woefully into temptation.
Right? So now I feel less secure, right?
And the money doesn't make up for it.
And so that's the question.
And it is a big question, of course, for people who've grown up with huge amounts of danger.
And again, unless I'm wrong, it seems to me that your childhood was full of enormous amounts of danger that you could not possibly manage or control.
You could only try to survive.
So you have a great thirst for safety and security.
And the temptation to get safety and security leads you, leads me, leads everyone to make these moral compromises and say, well, okay, if I disavow something that's really important to me, if I betray my marriage and tell my husband to go out with this creep who wants to hook him up with girls, I'll end up secure.
And that reaching for the security It's almost like you see these videos of guys on ladders.
They're hanging Christmas lights and they reach too far.
They topple over, right? I'm not going to move the ladder.
I'm just going to get this done and then I'm going to go in where it's safe and it's...
Right? Over he goes.
And so when it comes to money, I don't think it's the money you're after.
I think it's security.
Now, the only real security you're going to get...
I believe, is out, like, just of this ferocious dedication to honesty and virtue.
And, you know, that was what attracted you to your husband, the honesty thing, but that has not played out in the way that you want, because he was looking at pornography without telling you, and he was doing this club thing.
And with these girls, do you feel like you've got the straight goods, the honest answer on what happened?
On the girls, yes.
On the photos, no.
And what's the story with the three girls?
The next day we spent six hours talking about it and he basically said that he was in a situation to where the guy, Bob, kept bringing up girls over and over and he thought it would look weird because the girls were asking for his number and he thought it would be weird if he just He said no, so he said he gave out a fake name and a number because they took his phone from him and typed it in.
That creeped me out that they were within that much of a close vicinity of him to touch his phone and take it out of his hand.
They felt comfortable enough doing that.
He said they texted him and he immediately deleted it after he didn't respond, which I know he did because I could see that he did not respond to any of them.
And he did delete them.
I could tell because it shows deleted on the other device.
But what made me cringe is that he, one, was in the vicinity close enough for a woman to feel comfortable enough to grab a phone from his hand.
Two, that he even gave his number out.
And then three, that he deleted it and he was never going to speak about it.
But you both decided to toss him overboard with ketchup on his legs and you're surprised he got bitten by a shark?
I mean, did you like, well, we made a bad decision as a couple to put you in that situation.
I'm really sorry. Or was it like, how dare you?
Did you remove yourself from the decision process?
Yeah, I did. Right.
Okay, so that's kind of a betrayal in my view, which is you both decided he was going to go with corrupt Bob out for the evening and Bob was going to try and ply him with girls, right?
Yeah. And he had to do this deal.
And your husband, through, I mean, I think it was a bad decision, obviously, but through your mutual decision, Bob was put into, sorry, your husband was put into this very awkward situation, right?
Yeah. But it sounds like you abstracted yourself from the decision-making process.
And you didn't say, wow, you know, I'm kind of hungry for money.
You chose to go, but I really pushed you to go, and I really helped propel you into a pretty horrible situation, and boy, let's learn our lessons and never do that stuff again.
Yeah. I mean, I hope that the deal with Bob didn't go forward, did it?
No. So, and why didn't it go forward?
Was it just you guys decided to pull out, or it didn't work out, or...?
It didn't work out, but as well I just said, hey, just to avoid any future, it's probably not the best idea that you continue working with him.
So it ended up being virtually for nothing anyway, right?
Yeah. Well, actually it's a huge negative, right?
Yeah. Right.
Because now it makes me look at his phone every day.
Right, right, right.
And, of course, you've had the not hugely honorable moment of blaming your husband for a decision you both made.
Yeah. Which is, you know, not great.
Yeah. You know, it's like you both decide to buy a really expensive house and then you blame him for not having enough spending money, right?
Yeah. You're right.
And do you have any thoughts about the Instagram likes, and in particular, girls who are in a geographical vicinity, right?
I mean, that's not exactly Tinder, but it's not exactly the opposite of Tinder, that sort of activity, if I have that correct.
Yeah, that's kind of the thing that I was just stumped on, because when I asked him last time what his decision was on, is he going to continue it, or is he going to stop it?
He just said, I can't give you an answer on that.
So, and for me, I personally don't know what I think about it.
Because, like I said earlier, it makes me feel like he's leaving the door open.
But then at this, I don't know.
Sorry, you don't know what to think about him liking girls in the vicinity?
Yeah. I don't like it, but I don't know if I'm the cause of it.
Well, I mean, you're not forcing him to push the like button, right?
Yeah. So, I mean, you're certainly not the immediate cause of it.
And would you say that I mean six months into the marriage would you say that your relationship?
How would you rate it sort of one to ten in terms of getting along?
Since the before the phone thing of
Him and the girls I would say like an eight or nine After, it's kind of been like, I don't know.
It seems rude.
Now that you've pointed it out like that, it's a completely different perspective.
Before, I would have said of, I don't know who you are.
I don't know what you like anymore.
I don't know what you do. We don't communicate.
But now, I think it's I don't know.
It would be a whole different thing because now I've played a part in it.
And did he know that you were going to talk to me today?
Yes. Yeah.
And why didn't he want to join in the conversation?
I mean, he was a fan to some degree before you, right?
He recommended it because he didn't want...
I tried to talk to him about it before, too, multiple times.
I was like, oh, I'm so excited.
I've been wanting to talk to Stefan.
Yeah. How should I formulate my question?
Should I put together a notebook?
I was trying to talk to him about it and communicate with him and he was like, I think it's best that you just, we don't talk about it and you just have your phone call with him so that you're not changing answers or you're not, it's your personal phone call and then if he believes I need to call in, I'll call in. Yeah, of course, spouses and partners are always welcome to call in.
And if Bob were on the line with us, and I would say to Bob, what are the top five things you love about your wife?
life, what would he say?
I know this may sound weird, but the first word that popped in my head is virtuous.
I'm going to put it in the chat.
I don't know.
It's hard for me to answer that because I want to say all the things that I think about myself.
Right. No, I'm asking.
This is for him though, right?
I know. Right.
Now, has he said things to you that he loves about you, but you don't accept or believe them?
Or has he not said many of those things?
and that's why there's a pause in trying to figure these things out.
He has said them about me.
He doesn't say it to me.
He tells me what he says to other people about me.
Well, what does he say to you, if anything, about what he loves about you?
That he loves, that I take care of him, that I'm thoughtful, that I take time to ponder things, that I'm very, what's the word, very critical about things, that I don't think out of emotion, that I typically take time and I want to communicate to find a solution.
I'm very factual.
That I'm a good wife.
He loves that I'm preparing to be a good mom.
That he thinks I'll be an amazing mom.
That he married me because I'm the woman.
He said he married me because if he could give a choice to his future child, he knows that I would have been the perfect choice.
That the kid would have chose me as a mother.
That's what he tells me.
Right, okay. So let me ask you, this is a tough question, but let me ask you anyway.
So when you went to Colorado with him, which is a very big thing to do with someone you've been out of contact with for some months, right?
Yeah. You go to Colorado with him.
He obviously wanted to date you at that point, right?
Mm-hmm. Now, you had, I don't know, is it too strong to say a minor mental health crisis where you were having panic attacks and freaking out?
Oh, 100%.
Yes, 100%.
Okay, so you were having a mental health crisis on going to Colorado.
Now, I hear Colorado is quite nice.
If you're going to hell, I understand.
If you're in some private jet to Dubai, it's probably not going to end very well for a young pretty girl, right?
So, Colorado is pretty nice.
I don't see the panic.
Oh, no, I'm going to Hawaii, right?
So, you had a mental health crisis when he invited you to Colorado.
And after that, he pursued you, right?
Yeah. Does that not strike you as somewhat suspicious or something that needs to be unpacked?
Yeah. When we went on, if I can give a little...
When we went on the Colorado trip and I had those mental breakdowns, I explained to him that the reason I was having it is that I was scared that I had finally found someone that I trust and I care about and I feel like now I'm being used, if that makes sense.
Like, instead of just thinking, oh, this is a genuine, someone cares about me and they just want to have a conversation...
All of a sudden, I'm thinking now he wants to sleep with me, which he didn't have.
He told me he never had the intention of that.
That's why he had two separate rooms.
He was like...
No, but he was... Hang on, hang on.
No, no, no. Come on. He was interested in dating you when he asked you to Colorado.
Yeah. Right?
Now, sleeping with you or not, I mean, that's kind of the point of dating is to end up sleeping with someone, hopefully in a marriage with children and all.
But that's kind of the ball that's in motion, right?
That's the domino. Yeah. Okay, so you're having a real crisis and you were in your, I'm trying to think here, you were like what, 24?
No, at that time I would have been 21, 21 or 22.
Okay, so 21 or 22.
So you're a very young woman.
He knew, of course, that you had been on your own since the age of 15.
He knew that you'd gone through this cataclysmic business betrayal.
I assume he knew all of these things about you, right?
Mm-hmm. And so, listen, you were a very vulnerable young lady, and you had a lot of trauma, and you had a lot of things to deal with, right?
Mm-hmm. Right.
Why did he pursue you?
Now, please understand, I'm not saying he should or shouldn't have.
I'm just trying to understand.
This is why it would be helpful to have him on the call, but this is the question which I'm sure you've thought about, or if you haven't, you kind of need to.
Why did he pursue you when you were a young woman with some significant mental health issues?
Well, I in a roundabout way I don't know how to answer the question specifically to me,
but his past girlfriends were all mentally psychotic or mentally disturbed if I can say that
And were they all good looking?
Yes, very good looking.
Okay, so he has a type which is, and listen, I don't want to call you crazy or anything like that, but he has a type which is very attractive young women who have mental health challenges.
Yeah. Now, the mental health challenges are not attractive.
Yeah. Right, because if he's saying, well, you know, I chose you because I thought how wonderful it would be for you to be the mother of my children, and if there was anyone in the world my children could choose, it would be this woman.
And again, I'm not saying you won't make a great mom.
I'm sure you will. You listen to this show, and that puts you way up there, in my estimation at least.
But at 21 or 22, there's no way he would have looked at you having a mental breakdown out of going to Colorado and say, this is great mom material right here.
So, why did he pursue you?
You absolutely do.
I mean you have significant qualities of character.
I mean, I get that just from having this conversation with you, but you weren't displaying them at that time, right?
Yeah. So why did he pursue you?
I'm really stumped. I may need some help.
out.
Bye.
Because of your looks. Yeah.
I mean, isn't that the one major differentiating?
And please, I'm not trying to boil you down to your looks.
I know I want to put all these caveats in because I want to be really clear here.
You have a great brain, a great conversation, great sensitivity, and all of that, so great communication skills.
But at that time, on the Colorado trip, it's when he invited you out of nowhere.
You blocked him for months, and then the moment you reconnected, isn't that right, that he asked you to go to Colorado?
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
So you had blocked him, which is, you know, kind of rude.
Yeah. Without explanation, is that right?
Basically, yeah.
Okay, so that's rude and negative behavior.
And so the moment you get back in touch with him after being kind of rude and negative towards him and not displaying great qualities of character...
Right? He's like, let's go to Colorado.
And then on Colorado, you kind of have, as you report, sort of mental breakdowns and so on.
And he's like, this is the girl for me.
Right? So you've been kind of rude to him.
He invites you to Colorado.
You have mental health challenges on the trip.
And he pursues you.
Right? So what's the one differentiating characteristic that would have him pursue you based upon his type?
Your looks. Your looks.
Right? And again, looks are fine.
Looks are great. I think looks are wonderful and all of that.
But, here's the question.
If deep down, this is why I'm trying to get to the security thing, right?
If deep down you think he's with you, primarily, or he pursued you primarily for your looks, you will not feel secure in the relationship.
Now, nothing wrong with being good-looking, nothing wrong with being attractive, nothing wrong with your husband looking at you with great lust and all of these wonderful things.
I have no issue with that. But, if you think...
Or if you think deep down that he got together with you because of looks, your particular anxiety will show up when you want to have children, right?
Yeah. Why is that?
Because I think they'll see it.
Go on. That's why I think all of this has been bubbling to the surface lately because it's My number one fear is that they'll see all of the things that I don't say out loud or I don't really point out.
I think that they're going to notice that and they're going to notice that I don't...
that I'm constantly like questioning.
And then if I don't feel like I'm good enough...
I think that's very nice and very abstract and you could totally be right.
It's your life. Let me invite you to one other perspective which may be a bit more immediate.
Quick question, what happens to your figure when you get pregnant?
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
I mean, if you're not sexy enough for him now as a workout queen in your mid-twenties, what happens when you're big with child, loosey-goosey from childbirth, breastfeeding, right?
What happens when you burn, at least for a while, your looks on the altar of the baby?
Right? Which is crazy that you say that, because the other day, the words that came out of my mouth when I was very emotional was, I'm scared you're going to put a baby in me and then leave me.
Well, sure. And this is what I'm trying to unpack and uncover.
And again, I could be wrong.
But it seems to me that...
And this is true.
You're not alone in this, my friend.
Like, you really are not alone in this.
Women love to be beautiful, and you've worked very hard at it.
Women love to feel beautiful, and they love to be physically attractive.
And men do too, right? I think it's a little bit more for women.
And then their great fear, because they get guys, or they get the attention of guys based on looks, but their great fear is that the purpose of that attention is, in a sense...
There are some people who are pretty obsessive, some women who are kind of obsessive, who get back in shape, you know, very soon after the baby's born and look great and this and that and the other.
And maybe you'll be that person, but it's always a losing battle.
It's always because you've got, as you say, you've got time.
You're in the realm of time.
And, you know, 26 is young.
You're still, you know, a ways away from what, I don't know, they call it the wall or something like that, right?
But if you...
Are you planning to stay home with kids?
Yeah. Okay.
So you will have at least a fairly significant interruption in your sexiness, right?
Because you'll be pregnant and then you'll be having a kid and then you'll be breastfeeding and so on.
And you also will go from making money...
To being a liability, right?
I mean, I know it's kind of a cold thing to say, just a liability, but you're aware of that, right?
So you're no longer providing the same looks and you're no longer providing the money.
So if he's here for your looks, and I'm not saying he is or isn't, I'm just saying if that's the fear.
If the fear is that he's here for your looks, then thinking about having a baby is really tough.
And I was really struck earlier when you said, well, look, am I just not sexy enough?
Am I just not attractive for you?
Enough, right? That you go to these, whatever, pornography sites or whatever.
So then it's like, okay, you're going to have a baby.
That's not exactly going to solve that problem of you not being sexy enough, if that's your perception, right?
Yeah. Is the man going to love me if I don't bring looks and money to the relationship?
Does he love me, or does he love the soul and the mind, or does he love the flesh and the wallet?
It's the same thing, you understand, it's the same thing with very wealthy guys, except wealthy guys can hide their wealth.
Good-looking women can't really hide their good looks, right?
This sort of librarian fantasy, you know, she took off her glasses, and she's Cindy Crawford, right?
But very wealthy guys have the same issue, right?
Because very wealthy guys can get a lot of bikini babes to come on their yachts, right?
Yeah. But do the bikini babes love them for who they are?
You know, I mean, it's kind of a torture in a way, right?
Because you want to be loved for who you are.
Now, who you are is partly your dedication to fitness and to exercise and your looks.
I mean, that's part of who you are.
I'm not trying to separate the two like you're some disembodied soul that someone has to love completely independently of the flesh.
I mean, part of who I am is I exercise, and part of who I am is, like, whatever, right?
But if, and this is back to the genesis, that I was troubled by that story, which is, you ghost him.
He didn't really ask for much of an explanation.
He's like, let's go.
And let's go to Colorado right after you ghosted is a test for boundaries.
So imagine somebody who grew up really secure and loved and has a great relationship with her parents and she ghosts some guy and then she unblocks him and he invites her to come on a holiday with him for a couple of days.
What would that woman do?
What would she say? There'd be no way.
I've got to do more work investigating you first.
No, she'd block him again.
I'm serious. I'm not trying to unravel your relationship at all, right?
Because you're together and you're looking for a baby and you're married and so on.
But I'm just trying to say that that's like a test for boundaries.
We're not boyfriend and girlfriend.
I'm not going to ask you on a potential date.
I'm not going to say I'm attracted to you I'm going to get you to come, what was it, you said, was it two nights, three days, two nights?
Yeah. Okay, I'm going to get you to come away with me for three days and two nights after you just blocked me for, what was it, six months or three months or something like that, right?
Yeah. Now, a woman who had, and this is not your fault, you were a young woman and you were, you know, very, very badly raised, traumatically raised, but I think a woman would say now, like, I mean, you can imagine if you have a daughter, right?
And she's like, oh yeah, no, I blocked this guy because X, Y, and Z, right?
And I just unblocked him and the first thing he does is say, come away with me on vacation for a couple of days.
What would you say to your daughter?
No way. Like, no, that's not a thing you should do.
If the guy is interested in you and if you think he has some potential, you know, you can meet him for a coffee, not necessarily in Montana.
Like, you don't have to be in Colorado or whatever.
Like, you can just maybe have a coffee with him, but you can't just go away on vacation with a guy when you've just blocked him for six months.
Yeah. Yeah. And your mental health challenges during...
I mean, I deeply sympathize and understand, but your mental health challenges during that vacation was a kind of despair.
Why are you so interested in me?
Look, I'm a mess!
I blocked you for six months.
I'm sobbing all over the car or bus or plane or whatever you were on, right?
I'm having panic attacks.
I'm a mess! Mm-hmm.
And he's like, well, you are a mess, but you're a mess I want to have sex with.
And that's not the best way to get things going.
Yeah. And I think you probably needed like a real friend there, right?
Somebody to sit and listen to, to maybe hold your hand, to help you get to a therapist, to really empathize.
Not to start pitching woo.
Yeah. And how long was it that you went on this trip with your now husband?
How long before that did you and the boyfriend of three to four years break up?
That would have probably been two years.
And had you seen people in the interim?
During that time, basic dates, maybe like five.
Yeah, so there's a couple of dates, no relationship, right?
Yeah. Okay.
And had you done any therapy or have you done any therapy over the course of your life?
Yes, but therapy always proved that they had an agenda.
When I was a kid, we went to therapy and it was very one-sided.
It was like, oh, which parent can convince the therapist that the other parent's bad?
It was always an agenda.
We never got anywhere.
I hired a therapist right after when I got out of my profession that I was kind of alienated away from.
And I hired this therapist, but the therapist during our therapy sessions figured out that I was a good, what did you say, a trophy or a good shiny thing to go and promote in their business.
So then it very quickly became an agenda of I'm going to manipulate you in a way to get you to Go this direction.
And that's how it's always been, from Bible studies to manipulating me to do what they want to.
Oh, listen, beauty can be, untrained beauty can be a real curse.
And I, you know, everybody looks at the beautiful people and say, oh my gosh, their life must be so easy.
It's like, it's really not because everybody wants something from you.
And a lot of it is pretty underhanded.
Yeah. So it's not, it's not easy, not an easy life.
It's not. Okay. Last question.
Are you ready? Yeah. How are you doing in the call as a whole?
How are you doing in the conversation? Let me just check in with you here.
Good. Very good.
All right. So, what are the top five things that you love about your husband?
That...
I don't know if spontaneous is a good word, that he's never...
He's exciting. He's never dull.
He's always changing our life every second, which I love because I'm very much a to-do list person, so I like the excitement.
You missed the Adderall is what I'm getting, but okay.
Just kidding. Go on. He's extremely loving.
He genuinely cares about my opinion and What I'm thinking.
He genuinely wants to communicate and help me and learn where I'm coming from.
It's not one-sided.
He's very much into, let's figure this out.
Let's both be happy.
He wants to succeed for us and our family.
He's not lazy.
He's very attractive.
He cares a lot about making sure that I'm set for life and that I'll never have to worry.
Money-wise, money and life-wise.
Right. Right.
Oh, I mean, that's some very, very positive stuff.
And of course, you did mention the honesty earlier, but it sounds like there's been a few dips in that recently, right?
Yeah. Right. So, I think...
That it probably would be wise for your husband to help you to understand what he loves about you outside of your looks.
And again, the looks are part of your personality.
The exercise is part of... So I'm not trying to separate the two completely.
But I think that if you feel that he loves you independent of looks...
The looks are part of it, but independent of looks.
Because we all get old and ugly.
You understand, right? We all get old and ugly.
And during pregnancy, if the woman feels like he's mostly there for looks and status and all of that, then the woman is going to go through a bit of a crisis of confidence.
And it's the same crisis of confidence, of course, that a man would go through.
If the man secretly believes that the woman's with him for his money and he loses his job or loses his money in some way, right?
Yeah. So maybe these two things are going on, that if you're pushing him to make more money, then he's like, oh, well, then the major value I'm bringing to the table is money.
So I'm going to go get money, even if it means compromising things, right?
Yeah. Which you both agreed on and probably was, in my view, a bit of a mistake.
So if he feels, okay, I'm just a walking wallet with good hair or whatever, right?
Then there's that aspect of things.
And if you feel like you're there for looks and figure and fake boobs or whatever, then there's going to be a challenge when these things go away.
Because these things are all going to go away over time.
I mean, maybe you can keep money, but...
But you have less to spend it on because you get old, right?
I've seen a lot of old people who are like, oh, I'd like to go hiking, but my knees are shot, or whatever it is.
There's things that you can keep the money, but it's not like it has the same value when you're old as when you're young.
So maybe if there's more of a sort of philosophical connection, a moral connection, but in order to get that and maintain that moral connection, I would certainly suggest that it would be wise...
To not do things like deny your marriage for money.
That's not going to have you guys look across the table and feel deeply honorable and treasured, if that makes sense.
Yeah. You're going to feel like, okay, we just kind of sold ourselves out for a couple bucks.
Maybe more than a couple of bucks, but still bucks no matter what, right?
Yeah. And so if you can find ways to reassure each other That you're there for the spirit, not the flesh.
You're there for the soul, not the money.
And again, the flesh is part of the spirit and the soul makes money as well.
And it's not like if he was completely broke and never made another penny that you feel totally comfortable having kids with him because they've got to eat and need shelter and all that, as do you, right?
So again, I'm not trying to say we have to be these disembodied platonic spirits that are loved regardless of anything that we do.
That's what we deserved as babies, but that's not what we can get as adults.
But I think you guys might be tipping a little bit more towards the materialistic in terms of what's provided, you know, sexiness and resources.
You don't want to compromise your spiritual connection for the sake of the pursuit of money or the pursuit of beauty.
You know, I look at some of these women who, you know, it's like, I've had three kids and they look like, you know, total Jill Ireland fitness models.
And it's like, yeah, okay, but how much time did you spend not with your kids because you're working out for three hours a day or whatever, right?
Yeah. I view that as, and it's a little bit mean to the moms who are really working to spend time with their kids and don't have quite as much time to exercise and all of that because, you know, it's standard that everything comes with a cost.
And so I think that that focus on physical attractiveness, it's like the guys who, you know, they're spending four hours a day in the gym and, you know, they look great.
But I think of all the things that they didn't achieve while they're doing that.
And again, if you want to spend four hours a day in the gym, I'm not going to nag you to death, but there's a price to be paid for all of these things.
And learning to live with your looks and recognize that it is a passing gift.
It is a passing gift.
And there will be times where you make more money.
There's going to be times when you make less money.
That's true if you're an entrepreneur, but it's increasingly equally true if you are A salaried employee because, you know, 300,000 people in the tech industry have been laid off this year so far.
So AI is disrupting everything.
So there's not a lot of security these days for most people.
So, yeah, if I were to sort of put you guys together and say what I think would be the best approach, it's, you know, you are together, you're married, you are one flesh, and your security is going to be When you are irreplaceable, right? The security is when you're irreplaceable.
Now, if he feels that his value is making money, well, how many people can make money in this world?
Billions, right? If you feel that your primary value is attractiveness, well, how many pretty girls are there in the world?
Zillions, right? Especially when you're pregnant and your boobs are spilling milk and all that kind of stuff.
So, It has to be something that is completely irreplaceable.
And what's completely irreplaceable is your essence, your character, your spirit, your virtues, your soul, the stuff that is not in passing and easily replicatable by others.
And if you can reach that place where you connect on something which is absolutely uniquely and totally yours...
That's all the security.
Like, how do I know I'm never getting divorced?
Because I am irreplaceable to my wife and my wife is completely irreplaceable to me.
You know, are there younger women?
Yes. Are there younger men?
Yes. Are there better looking men and women?
There certainly are. Are there richer men?
There certainly are, right?
But in terms of that absolute soul connection, that's irreplaceable.
Yeah. So I'm sorry for the sort of minor lecture, but I think that would probably...
And once you get that, you get security.
You didn't get that with your parents.
You didn't get that with your business partners.
You didn't get that with Bob. It comes and goes, I imagine, with your husband.
But I think that real connection based on virtue and where you can just admire each other and connect at such an elemental level that there's no replacement.
I think that's where the real security is, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, it does.
So that's my speech.
Is there anything you wanted to...
No, that was...
I should leave it in a burst of flash powder and, you know, confetti cannons and backup dancers, and step out!
But if there's anything you wanted to say, I'm certainly happy to hear.
No, that cleared up most all of it for me.
Will you obviously give your husband my very best and, you know, say man to man like I understand the heartness thing, I understand the beauty thing, I get that.
But you gotta, when you marry and you become a father, you really have to move.
Move with that, but beyond it.
So it's not mostly that.
And, of course, if he wants to talk, I'm always happy to hear from anybody, in particular, of course, the spouses and partners of listeners and callers.
And I hope that you will keep me posted about how things are going moving forward.
I will. Thank you so much.
You're very welcome, my friend. Thank you for a great call.
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