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Feb. 14, 2023 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:26:58

Gambling Cost Me Everything! Freedomain Call In

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	As I wrote in the email, but maybe a bit different description.
	I'm 31 now and like half of my, literally half of my life, I'm gambling and addicted.
	Fresh after getting back to the problem, after one and a half, most, more than one and a half year of being sober.
	I'm trying to find answers, not how or what to do, I'm just trying to find some answers of why.
	Why am I coming back to these habits that are bringing me to the addiction?
	I'm trying to divide the addiction problem and the problem that brought me to the point where I'm lonely in my whole life and the only person that I can count on are the persons that also hurt me a lot, which is my parents and my fiancé, which is ex-fiancé because of what I did and what I'm addicted to.
	I'm unsustainable in what I'm doing and I need to find some other views on the thing.
	I'm going to the therapy as well, that's for sure, but it will take time.
	I know that usually therapy takes up to two years at least.
	What else can I say?
	Well, I've not...
	I mean, usually everybody knows someone who's drunk too much or whatever, right?
	But I'm not super familiar with the gambling addiction.
	Can you just sort of tell me, like, maybe we can start with what happened with your fiancé and why she's your ex-fiancé?
	Oh, because after one and a half year, I came back to it.
	You know, I actually...
	No, no, no. I understand.
	I understand it's because of the gambling, but...
	How does the gambling manifest and why is it showing up as so destructive for your fiancé?
	Because it's not just the gambling.
	If you've been around alcohol addicts, and I mean the character of those addicts like this, that they are not drinking for a year or two or three, but when they start from the very first bottle or glass, they don't stop. And my manner with gambling, something similar.
	I'm addicted to sports betting.
	Only that I have never even tried any other gambling in my life.
	So like you're not a casino life form?
	No, no, no. I have never been there.
	Never touched it. I have never even touched any kind of a machine.
	With gambling.
	No, nothing like that. But it doesn't make me better or worse.
	I just wanted to show you the light on my problem.
	I'm sports betting.
	Since I started the first therapies, and it was maybe around five years ago, my addiction went different.
	I was able to manage to stay sober for a year.
	But during that year, I wasn't able to find myself in life, in a way.
	Since I was 15, I left my parenthood village, let's say so, and went to football high school in one of the biggest cities in Poland.
	And since that, I'm I'm addicted, let's be honest.
	It was common in that society to just put some bets, but nobody has something like this that was going all in with whatever was doing, you know?
	Like they were gambling for, I don't know, 50 cents or something, and I could make 10 times more or even more.
	And it never scared me.
	It was never a problem for me to play all in.
	And I guess all my life is like this, that I'm just all in, whatever I'm doing.
	And how did you first, you say you don't touch machines, so is it my phone or you have a bookie that you gamble with?
	How does that work? The easiest way is through internet.
	You're opening the accounts at some bookie company.
	Basically, it's even worse than if you go to the casino because you have to get out of your bed to do it.
	If it's only the laptop or the phone that you have to grab, it's There's not enough time sometimes to stop, to have those negative thoughts.
	And I don't have them.
	I mean, at the moment I stopped.
	I lost what I had to lose to stop myself.
	I don't have the money to play.
	I don't have that feeling that I have to.
	But the damage in my life is such a huge thing.
	And you say, sorry, the damage is mostly emotional rather than financial?
	In other words, you become like a different person, like a meaner person, a more selfish person, a more impatient or bad-tempered person.
	Is it mostly emotional damage or is it just losing all the money?
	I think it's both, but to be honest, I don't think I have any hobby at the moment.
	And that's absolutely due to the gambling addiction.
	It drank all of the energy and or focus that I could invest in anything to develop any hobby.
	It used to be sports.
	And because I don't mean that, you know, it was only the sport that it was all about gambling.
	No, I went to this other school, high school, to the best football high school in Poland.
	And my plan, my dream was to become a professional sportsman.
	I wasn't good enough. Okay, I get it.
	But it was still like the most important part of my life or a hobby.
	Something that was interesting for me.
	But during my life and also with the therapy, I was forced to turn it off in a way because All the therapists, all the people around told me that that's not really safe to be close to the environment that is so connected.
	Oh, so you had to leave the whole sports world because of the gambling addiction?
	Yes, yes, yes. Right, okay.
	So, okay, I appreciate that overview.
	Let's get to the source.
	Let's tap the root. And if you can tell me about your childhood, that would, I think, be a good place to start.
	I'm a single child. My parents didn't have a great relationship.
	And it's all about, not their childhood, but their history together.
	I don't really understand how bad relations could have been when they got together at the age of 22, 21.
	But there was a huge competition between brothers, or not even brothers, because my dad is a twin.
	And it was not even about him and his brother, but about two wives.
	Which basically end up at my mom being...
	Damaged, in a way. I'm hearing that from many, many, many years that she was not accepted in my dad's family.
	And that's like the story going on and on and on for all my life.
	Bringing the new nerves and new conflicts into our family.
	So I'm a single child and I was into that for most of my life.
	It was a part of it.
	I even had to be like the arbitrary for them fighting each other.
	But when it comes to raising me...
	Sorry, what did they fight about?
	My mom was always complaining about being unfairly treated by my dad's parents.
	That whole family.
	She said that she didn't have a very warm welcome, that she was treated unfair.
	I'm losing a bit of words.
	How to say it in English?
	I'm sorry.
	Okay, so she complained about her mother of the women in her family treating her badly?
	In my dad's family.
	Oh, your dad's family.
	Okay, so her mother-in-law was treating her badly.
	She'd complain about that to your dad, and then they would fight about that.
	Like your dad would say, don't be silly, you're not being treated badly or something like that.
	You were just telling me about your childhood, and the issue was that your mother was complaining about her mother-in-law.
	your dad's mom and that she was being mistreated.
	Is that right? Yes, and the whole family from that side.
	So basically, even though the family was huge, like my dad had eight siblings, they were lonely as well.
	They were on the side of all the events in the family.
	They didn't have nobody's back when it was getting about, I don't know, taking care of me when I was sick and they had to go to work or something.
	They really were alone when it comes to this.
	And it became a huge problem for my mom.
	So my mom grew up huge pain for all her life about this and on that she built up all the other conflicts.
	I'm sorry, what did your father say when your mom would complain about being mistreated?
	He had to accept that.
	But he said, look at me what I did.
	I backed up you.
	I was with you.
	I supported you. I chose you.
	I don't follow that.
	If you could explain that a little more. He couldn't help his family look any better in that situation so he was trying to calm down my mom with not getting teaming up with all accusations on the history but he was trying to show himself and Where he was,
	where he was standing. He was standing for choosing my mom as a future wife and doing the best to make it happen, doing the best to provide to the family.
	And they made it.
	They started from a very poor And they became quite rich in a way.
	Do you know any of the specific issues that your mom was complaining about?
	Do you have any memory or did you ever find out since what kind of bad behavior she felt mistreated by?
	Yes. For example, my uncle's wife, who was the biggest enemy of my mom she got way more supported but what do you mean about some example my dad was told by the parents to go to work on their house not his parents house but the enemy future house I don't know if you follow who's the enemy.
	It was the other wife of my mom.
	When I was sick, and I was a kid, so there was nobody to take care of me at the time.
	And nobody cared about this because it was other kids.
	Other wife project that was the most important.
	They had to shine in the small society with the new house.
	And my parents, as the poor ones, as the ones that were on the side, they were left at the end of the...
	How do you call it?
	Order, let's say.
	Yeah, they were just left behind at the end.
	They were not important in what families should do to develop.
	I'm sorry, I'm really not following that.
	So there was a house issue and your father was involved in the construction?
	Everyone was involved.
	It was the times that, in Poland at least, now it's not like that anymore, but it used to be like this, that in a small countryside people were building its own by By their hands.
	It wasn't the company.
	It wasn't the construction. Okay, I'm sorry.
	Maybe it's a language thing.
	What specifically was your mother upset about, if you remember?
	I mean, something about a house.
	Did she feel disrespected?
	Was she lied to? Was she insulted?
	What specifically occurred that you can recall that your mom was upset about?
	My mom was upset that her enemy...
	I don't know if you follow who's the enemy.
	Which means my dad's twin wife was going to get everything, every help, every action from the family, and my parents were not.
	When I was sick at home, me as a kid, and my dad was there to take care of me.
	Just be... In home with me for a couple of hours.
	They still didn't care about this and asked him to go to work on the new house for this enemy family.
	Did you follow that?
	Yeah, okay. I understand.
	It doesn't sound too terrible.
	I mean, some people can be selfish and say, come work on the house even when your kid's sick, but did she herself feel personally insulted?
	I'm trying to sort of figure out What happened in your childhood that made your mom so angry?
	I was just trying to give you some stupid example.
	I was two or three years old at the moment.
	I was just trying to give you any example.
	But when I grew up, I already knew that when I was going to the grandmother, it was just me that I was going to visit her.
	My parents were leaving me at the front of the gate and I was going to visit her.
	Oh, so they wouldn't even...
	That's how bad the family split got, that they wouldn't even go and see the grandmother?
	Yes. Okay. For many, many years, it was like that.
	So, what happened with your parents' marriage that they ended up splitting up?
	It sounds like they cut off the toxic family as they saw it.
	So, what happened in your parents' marriage that they got so bad?
	They... They didn't split up.
	They are still together, but they are fighting.
	They both want different things from their life.
	When I'm thinking about it now, I just think that my mom is really sick when it comes to getting some bad heritage, some huge pain inside of her and growing it up instead of Trying to figure out how to live with it.
	So, my dad would like to develop.
	My dad is a hard-working man.
	He really succeeds when it comes to providing to the family.
	They were starting from a very poor level when it comes to what they had.
	You mentioned a number of times that they made money.
	Good for them. Now, when it came to you as a kid, your parents came from bigger families and you were an only child.
	Do you know why you were an only child?
	Why they didn't have more? At the beginning it was about the financial stuff and when they figured out that it would be nice actually to not have a single child because there are problems with a single child.
	It was too late for them.
	Some health issues I don't know exactly.
	What was it? Like some fertility issues?
	They were trying but they couldn't and it was too late.
	Their waiting time was way too long.
	Okay, alright. Even though they had me really young, I was born when they were 20 to 21, which means it shouldn't be like that.
	Wait, so you were born in their early 20s and they were still trying to have kids like 20 years later?
	10 years later and there was some health issue.
	That's It wasn't like today, I guess, that if you really have that pursuit for a baby, you're doing everything you can.
	I guess they were trying, they didn't succeed, and just by some doctor analysis, you know, you will have a problem.
	Okay, that's not for us then.
	I guess that was the case.
	Okay, so I mean, I'm the parent of a single child, so when you have a single child, you have to work a lot harder to socialize with that single child because they don't have another child to play with in the household.
	So you have to kind of get down on the carpet and play and all of that.
	So given that you were a single child, did your parents put a lot of effort into playing with you and connecting with you?
	When I was a kid, yes.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	I told about this story, like my dad used to take care of me, but it was just accidentally, usually it was my mom, and I went to the preschool way later than the kids from the community.
	And, well, yeah, she was taking care of me a lot, really.
	And also, she's accusing me about this now, that she gave me so much of her love, gave me so much of her But that's like until I was six or seven.
	Then my mom also... Sorry, what is she accusing you of now?
	That I'm not appreciating that.
	Oh, I gave you the best years of my life and you don't come by or you don't call as much as I want.
	Maybe not the best years of her life because she never used that phrase.
	Best years of my life.
	Never. I had never heard...
	Yeah, but I'm not trying to replicate everything she says, but just something like that.
	No, it's mostly comparing to others.
	So the other kids were running on a village, dirty, hungry or something, and I gave you so much care and love.
	That's the phrase that she's using, and I'm not appreciating that.
	I just cannot, you know.
	I think this is something unfair or stupid to actually expect kids to remember that stuff when I was five or six.
	That's what she's doing. Has she acknowledged that fighting all the time with your father was upsetting to you?
	I guess so.
	But I think she has some health issues as well.
	Mental health issues as well.
	She's in a depression.
	She has never made it to go to the doctor, but I guess on the first visit she would have that diagnosed.
	Okay, sorry, I'm going to have to repeat.
	Has she acknowledged that fighting all the time with your father was bad for you?
	I think so, yes.
	Well, it's obvious.
	But she's still doing it, right?
	Yes, yes. Okay, so she hasn't changed that behavior.
	She hasn't said, well, gee, you know, fighting is pretty unpleasant to be around, so if I want you to be around more, I should fight less.
	Yes. So she hasn't done anything like that in practical terms, right?
	It hasn't changed.
	Okay. During years, I became the alter...
	I don't know how to say it...
	The problem, the reason, the reason of their fight.
	My mom stopped saying about the history.
	She started saying about what happened with me, how different she wanted me to grow up, how different she wanted me to be raised than my dad.
	So they're blaming you for their conflicts now?
	Yes, many, many times.
	Now, how were you disciplined as a kid when you did things your parents didn't want you to do or that sort of stuff?
	It was usually being grounded or blocking me the computer possibilities.
	Well, the physical abuse, that was the really last part that could have happened.
	It wasn't so often.
	I have to say that it happened, but, you know, it was very rare.
	And how would the physical discipline, how would that work?
	What would they do? Beating with a belt, but...
	That's maximum.
	Nothing more happened.
	Never, to be honest.
	I wouldn't say that I have a huge...
	Problem with that when it comes to my childhood.
	And how did life go for you in your teenage years?
	I was always the best in school.
	Everything there went very easy for me and I felt like also unappreciated with my results, to be honest.
	They always wanted me to do better.
	So, you know, getting...
	We have the scores 1 to 6, 6 the best.
	5 was not enough, you know, why didn't you bring 6?
	Yeah, but I was doing really great in school.
	It was very easy until I went to this football high school.
	What changes a lot in my life.
	And that started when I was 15.
	I don't know, should I say before 15 or when I went there?
	Until 15, I was very social.
	I was always a leader of the class community in school.
	Same as I said, really great scores.
	And a part of the social life.
	I was always popular.
	I didn't have that problem at all.
	Of being lonely or being on the side.
	And when I went to this football high school in another city, then I... I don't want to say I was shocked, but it was a different story because it was a mix of people from all over the country.
	So it was a way harder experience.
	I wasn't such a star as in my parenthood countryside.
	But I made it by being, I guess, good friends.
	I grew some relations.
	I was also doing good in school.
	But I started to gamble at 12.
	Sorry, you said at 12?
	At 15. At 15, okay.
	Got it. And was there someone who introduced you to it?
	Or did you find it on your own?
	Or how did that go? I think I found it on my own before I went there.
	And asked my dad if I can try.
	But I could play for, I don't know, 12 bucks.
	And win, double it.
	And then lose it all. That was the story.
	And then I forgot about it for half a year or something.
	Sorry, when your dad said at the age of 15, you said to your dad, can I gamble online for money?
	And he said, go ahead.
	Did he sit with you?
	Did he explain it to you?
	Did he supervise you?
	Did he show you the math?
	I mean, how did that go when you said to your dad, I want to do this? - Well, it also actually, that's, yeah, that's okay.
	Okay, if you want to, because when I was 15, I had to use his data, his name.
	It's not possible to gamble when you're 15, legally, in a way.
	He said, okay, if you want to try it, if you think you know a lot about sports, yeah, you can try it.
	Okay, so, I mean, was he concerned about the illegality of what you were doing?
	No, I don't think so.
	And was he concerned that he was sort of participating in a fraud?
	And again, I'm not saying that the law is the be-all and end-all of abstract morality, but, you know, there's a cost-benefit ratio to this.
	I mean, you could get into some serious trouble, I think, by enabling child gambling on the internet and so on.
	And did he just basically shrug and let you do it?
	Did he check in? Did he circle back?
	Did he tell you about the risks or anything like that?
	No, I don't remember introducing me to the bad side of it.
	I just know that he was checking me, what am I doing there?
	So he knew the balances, he knew what was going on, and I guess also he I didn't recognize the danger of it because it was about such a low money.
	And it stopped very, very soon and there was no any continuity.
	So at the beginning, he gave you some money, you made some money, you lost some money, I guess maybe you went back down to zero and then you stopped.
	And how long did you gamble for when you were 15?
	It could have been when I was 14 and a half and then when I was 15 I went to this football high school so I guess when I had this few months with no gambling at all having this small experiment as I said with my dad's Providing me a legal possibility for that and then stopped for a few months.
	When I moved to another city with other friends in school, we started to gamble a lot and that was not online.
	I think we were playing in the Buki shop.
	But where were you getting the money to do this?
	I was getting money for living in another city.
	We were living in a student house.
	Sorry, were you getting the money from your family or from the government?
	Yes, from my parents.
	I was getting money to live during the week.
	Okay, so you took some of the money from your parents and you gambled, right?
	Yes. And how did that go financially?
	At the beginning, not bad.
	In the beginning, I wasn't playing for so much.
	I wasn't involved so much when it comes to time, but energy, stress, and for sure I had to be for some time on the plus.
	It couldn't be only losses that gave me such an addiction.
	I remember when I was Close to 16 maybe.
	But I gambled some scores pretty well, two days in a row, which gave me money that I couldn't get for, I don't know, seven weeks maybe.
	So that let me go and visit the girl that I met online in another city and have a really wonderful weekend.
	I guess that these good memories, you know, the wins, that's what addicts people.
	Well, of course. I mean, yeah, there's no addiction without a positive thing, right?
	And then eventually the positive thing just becomes fighting against the withdrawal, right?
	Like it's like, yay, it's really fun.
	And then it's like, oh, when I don't do it, I feel terrible.
	And that's sort of where it comes to, right?
	Yeah, yeah. Okay, and so you and your friends would go to a bookie and would you gamble on sports or horses?
	Sports, sports. It was mostly football.
	I'm really connected to football when it comes to what I was doing in my life when I was young and what I was interested about.
	And did your knowledge of football and I guess your experience with football, did that help you to win?
	At the beginning, when there was not so much emotions and addiction, yeah.
	But it stopped.
	It stopped hurting at all, and I stopped using any knowledge.
	Right, okay. So then you'd lose money, and you'd feel terrible, and you'd try and win the money back, and you'd lose money, and you'd feel terrible, and you'd try to win.
	Is it sort of like that? Yes, and it's also that it's not about losing money anymore, but I'm losing...
	If people around me knew that I was losing money, And I promised not to, or I promised I will not do this, or I knew that it looks bad or terrible.
	Then it was not only about money, it was sometimes about not showing it up.
	You were lying to people in a sense, right?
	Yes, yes, yes. And sorry, did I have this right that you went away to high school to another city?
	Yes. And is that because you needed a more challenging school?
	Yes, and also being a footballer was like a dream.
	It was very coincidental that I had any chance to get there.
	So it was like a football scholarship to this other high school?
	Yeah, yeah. Okay, I got it.
	Now, you were 15 when you went away, is that right?
	Yes. And how were you supervised in the other city?
	How were you managed? I mean, 15 is pretty young to live alone.
	We were in a student's house.
	So we had some, not just teachers in school, but also in the student house, which was not connected to the school.
	But, you know, there has to be some supervisor all the time.
	Well, I mean, if there's supervision, how are you doing all this gambling?
	Oh, they couldn't supervise us so well, or they didn't know exactly what was going on in every single room, in a way, you know.
	You had to get back from the city at the right time if you were getting out.
	Sorry to interrupt. You were gambling online at this point, right?
	Yes, but going to the bookie was like our thing just after the school, for example.
	So, you know, I could do this afternoon.
	But hang on, wouldn't the bookie notice that you were 15 years old?
	They all knew. They all knew and they...
	I know, Stefan, you were impressed with Poland when you were here, but that's also some kind of...
	There is a law and it doesn't mean that all people are following it.
	Right. That's not necessarily a huge negative for me in some circumstances.
	Okay, so you and your friends, you'd go to the bookie, you'd book, you'd bet.
	Now, did you end up in a negative or did you just go to zero?
	No, I definitely end up in negative.
	It was the time that I was playing for everything I had, just to catch that dream of getting it all back.
	Sorry, I don't gamble much, but when I do, if I'm playing blackjack, I have 20 bucks or whatever, and if I lose my 20 bucks, I don't end up negative.
	So how do you end up negative in this situation?
	I was starting to get some loans.
	Oh, you'd borrow to gamble and then you'd lose and then you'd try and pay the loans off by gambling more?
	Yes. For a long time, it was the only solution for me to answer, how can I make money?
	Because the other option was to work with my dad.
	No, no, that's what they call a false dichotomy, my friend.
	I mean, I either gamble or I work with my father.
	I'm pretty sure there aren't only two ways to make money in Poland, right?
	Either gambling or working for your particular father, right?
	There's tons of jobs out there, right?
	Especially for smart people who get fives and sixes out of six, right?
	Yes, you're right, but I'm just saying what I was saying.
	I'm not saying that's true.
	No, no, come on, but you're a smart kid.
	You knew that there were jobs, right?
	I mean, when I was in university or maybe in high school, there were job opportunities and people, like you go to the mall and they say, we're hiring or like there's lots of jobs.
	I mean, you would have known that you could have got a job somewhere, right?
	But not when I was 15, 16 and 17 because we had those student house rules that we have to come back at some certain time.
	So you couldn't get a job because of the student rules?
	Yes, yes. At the moment, yes, but I don't...
	I think that's a really, you know, weak explanation because I wouldn't even get that, even if that was possible.
	No, I get that. But, of course, if you were in another city and you weren't allowed to work, really, then working for your father wouldn't have been an option either, right?
	Yes, but it would be an option for the weekend.
	Now, did your...
	Oh, so you would go home on the weekends and work there.
	Okay. Now, did your father ever notice that you were...
	Out of money or in debt?
	They had to. They had to.
	Let's say that some problems were catching me over the course of my education in that city.
	Some loans or some debts.
	And I'm not saying loans in some companies, but some money that they borrowed from the friends, you know.
	If I didn't have the money to give them back, I had to start to either cheat and try to manipulate how and what for do I need more money, or actually those informations were going to my dad.
	I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by cheat.
	I was, well, for sure I was lying about what I need, what money and what for do I need it from my parents.
	So you don't mean cheated gambling, you mean lie to your parents about needing money and why?
	Yes, yes, yes. Okay, got it.
	So you would lie to your parents and you'd say, I need more money and you'd make up some reason and then they would send you more money, is that right?
	Yes. It wasn't even about sending, but I had to go there for a weekend and we had a conversation then.
	It wasn't about sending back then.
	Okay. Now, did your father or your mother ever question why you needed so much more money?
	Yeah, they did.
	They did. Most addicts are really good at manipulating, I guess.
	So, yeah, I was really good with that.
	Well, yeah, but you can't manipulate math.
	I mean, you can't manipulate math if you need, I don't know, an extra couple of hundred euros or something or whatever was going on at the time.
	Would you say, oh, I'm throwing a big party or I need a tuxedo or, like, I don't know, what would you say?
	Once I said that someone told me something on the street when I was going to make my teeth done, for example.
	There was not so much things like that.
	For example, I took money for the best football shoes and bought the level down ones.
	Half the price, for example.
	But that's something like that, you know.
	It wasn't a huge problem when it comes to the finances at that age, at that stage of my life.
	It was most about really starting to manipulate, cheat in every relation that was around me.
	Right. And did your friends ever sit you down and say, we think you might have a problem?
	No. So the teachers never knew, your parents never really asked, your friends didn't.
	Okay, so you understand that at the mid-teens, like 15, 16 years old, addiction is not primarily your problem.
	It's primarily a familial and social problem.
	It's your family and your friends and all of that, right?
	Who should be You know, it's like, to take a silly example, it's like if a five-year-old is getting fat, we don't sit there and say to the five-year-old, well, you just lack self-discipline.
	It's like, no, there's something wrong in the household, right?
	The bad food is around, the parents aren't parenting properly.
	So you ended up going off into this addiction, and there was lots of signs, right?
	Lots of signs. I mean, you need all this money, and no one did or said anything, right?
	Yeah. I think at the end of that school, it wasn't the friends that told me to get in shape, you know, to really help me.
	But that was the time when teachers knew that from my friends, for example.
	I shouldn't say friends, colleagues.
	Classmates. Yeah, classmates.
	That's better. So nobody really sat with me.
	But I guess all people at the end of the school knew.
	But nobody really was close to me and trying to shake me.
	Did teachers know?
	Did they have an idea?
	At the end, for sure, yes.
	And they didn't tell your parents?
	I don't know that.
	But my parents found out at some stage.
	They didn't trust me so much.
	On the other hand, they couldn't leave me without any money at all, being in another city.
	Well, sorry to interrupt, but wasn't it also dangerous to owe money to a bookie?
	I mean, maybe I've watched too many Martin Scorsese movies, but it seems like owing money to a bookie who's willing to break the law and have a 15-year-old bet may not be the safest thing in the world.
	I guess so. I mean, what was the concept?
	Were you threatened if you didn't pay?
	I mean, how did they get you to pay? No, no, but it wasn't, you know, I was never owning someone really danger.
	I was owning, for example, the colleagues.
	Oh, your classmates and someone. Yeah, yeah.
	No, it was never really something danger when it comes to the, I don't know, the mafia.
	No, no, no, nothing like that.
	Got it, got it. Now, how old were you when your parents found out?
	17 or 18.
	And what happened? How did they find out and what happened?
	I used to work for my dad and that's also something really hard now when I'm thinking about this.
	I used to work with my dad and he was collecting the money that I earned during that time when I was, I don't know, 13, 14, 15.
	It was all the time that I was working only with him.
	And he was writing down the numbers and saying that that's a nice start when I will be 18 or when I will be smart, then I will get it.
	So your father was having you work for him, but he wasn't paying you.
	He was just saying, I'll pay you in five years.
	Yes, exactly.
	Do you understand the relationship this has with your gambling?
	Yes, I know.
	I know that. I just...
	I want to tell that to someone and tell that story, you know?
	No, it's just like, okay, dad, you steal from me, I'll steal back.
	Yeah.
	If you don't respect my property rights, why would I respect your property rights?
	you Thank you.
	That was the case for a few years, yes.
	I was always...
	Treated with that sentence that, you know, you will get it.
	You will get it when you're 18.
	For the first car or something.
	Yeah, I remember when we moved from England, I still remember I got 36 pounds given to me by friends and relatives to enjoy Canada with, right?
	That's a huge amount of money back then, a crazy amount of money.
	And I remember my mother took it.
	And she said, you know, I will be happy to give it to you in bits and pieces when you ask for it, right?
	And I remember watching her take the money, and I'd be like, she might as well have just set fire to it.
	Like, I just knew there was no way I'm going to get that money back.
	Like, that's like giving your money to the government for your retirement, you know?
	It's just like, okay, bye-bye.
	Say farewell. It's like, so I just remember that moment where it's like, Now, if she'd have said, listen, I appreciate the money, we're moving to a new country, I'm going to need to take this money and use it for living expenses or whatever, like, okay, I mean, that would be upsetting, but I could, but it's this nonsense about, no, no, no, I'm holding it for you and things like that.
	It's like, no, no, you're not.
	Like, I've never, this money's gone.
	And it was, of course, I never, I never saw it.
	And anytime I'd need something to say we don't have the money and all that.
	So I knew she'd just spent it and And again, it may have been unreasonable things, but the money was supposed to be given to me.
	So I just remember having that sense of a state of nature with my mother.
	Like, okay, you don't respect my property rights, so I'm not going to respect your property rights.
	If this is how things are going to be, then I'm not going to have higher standards than you, if that makes sense.
	It does, it does.
	Yeah, it does.
	And it finally got to the point where Really, he used that money to cover my debts that I made.
	But I'm just thinking, could that be that I knew that I had some amount of money that I couldn't use?
	And that was an excuse for me to go negative with my bookies.
	To go below zero, because I knew, okay, I have that money.
	Okay, so we can pause here if you want, and I can tell you a theory.
	This is not the end of me finding out about your life, because we're only in your mid to late teens and you're in your 30s.
	But we'll pause here for a second, and if that's all right with you, I'll tell you a little bit of a theory about what's going on.
	Yeah, sure. Right, so a fundamental question every human being has is, how much do people care about me?
	How much do people care about me?
	How much do they see me?
	Do they value me? How much do they love me?
	Because they say they love me.
	They say family is everything.
	We love you. You're the world to us.
	People say all of this stuff.
	The question is, okay, but how much do people really care about me?
	And if you have doubts about these things, Then you will put up a test.
	Because, especially men, I think.
	Women do it maybe in a different way, but I'm talking about the sort of acting out and addiction.
	So if you doubt how much people really care about you, then you will act in a manner that is self-destructive.
	And you'll wait for someone to stop you.
	Because in life, you really do need to find out how much people really care about you.
	So my theory could be wrong, obviously.
	Your experience matters way more than my theories.
	But I think you had questions about how much people in your life actually cared about you.
	And so you're like, okay, well, let's find out.
	Let's find out if people care about me.
	I'm going to act in a pretty obviously self-destructive manner.
	And I'm going to see if anybody gives a shit.
	Just going to find out. Because men tend to be pretty empirical.
	We tend to live in a world of deeds and not words.
	And if we suspect that the deed of love doesn't match the words of love, then we will test the deeds, right?
	Does anyone love me enough to notice, to call me out on my lying, to notice that I'm doing self-destructive things, to know that I'm out of money?
	Do my friends care about me enough to ask me why I keep needing to borrow money?
	Does my father care about me enough to, oh, you got robbed?
	My gosh, let's drive straight to the town and file a police report, right?
	Because we can't let these robbers run around, like really call you out on stuff, right?
	I remember a friend of mine when he was a little kid, he'd be telling me the story when he was older, he's a...
	He didn't go to school, right?
	And in the afternoon, I think he had a test he wanted to bail on.
	He was like in grade, I don't know, grade five or grade six or something.
	He didn't go to school in the afternoon.
	And of course, the school called his mom and said, why was this person, why was this kid not in school?
	So the mom goes, why weren't you in school?
	He says, oh, I got sick in the playground and I came home.
	He says, oh, you got sick? Yeah, I threw up, right?
	So she said, okay, I'm like, I'm sorry that happened, but I need to make sure that you're telling the truth.
	So his mother took him to the playground and said, okay, where did you throw up?
	Now, it hadn't rained, and so if you throw up somewhere in the playground, there's going to be some evidence, right?
	And of course there was no evidence.
	And so she worked hard to find out if he was telling the truth or not.
	All kids experiment with lying.
	And the ability to lie can actually help you in life.
	And we don't have to go into all the theoreticals, but I think it's a decently useful skill to have.
	So... People in your life, they say, we love you.
	We care about you. You mean the world to us.
	You know, your mother is like, I cared about you more so than the other children who were left to run wild.
	And I cared about you and kept you out of preschool for longer and kept you home with me.
	And we care about you and we love you and we want the best for you.
	And it's like, okay, well, I have my doubts.
	So I'm going to act in a manner that's not obvious, like you're not punching yourself in the face, like something that people are just going to react.
	But something a little more subtle.
	I'm going to act in a manner that's And I'm going to find out who actually cares about me.
	Who notices. Like you developing a full-blown addiction.
	Does anyone notice?
	Do they care?
	Or do they have so little interest in me that I can do these terribly self-destructive things, make up the most absurd lies, And my personality will change.
	Do people care about me enough to even have the first freaking clue that I'm lying to their faces?
	Because, you know, if you know someone, you know, when my daughter, everyone who's a parent has this experience, your kids experiment with lying.
	And you know they're lying. Because, you know, you kids, you know when they're being honest, you know when they're lying.
	And, you know, you find gentle ways to call them on it, right?
	You don't shame them or humiliate them because, you know, everyone experiments with lying.
	Everybody experiments with cheating.
	Everybody experiments with sneaking food.
	Most kids will take—I used to occasionally take a quarter out of my mom's purse to go play a video game.
	I mean, this is—but, you know, she stole 38 pounds from me.
	So— Do they know you?
	Do they care about you?
	Do they have any clue that you're developing an addiction?
	Because, I mean, you may think that you're brilliantly wonderful at fooling your parents, but if your parents are connected with you, it's really tough to fool your parents if they're connected with you, right?
	Because your parents know you so well, and they know your demeanor, and they know when you're telling the truth, and they know when you're lying.
	And it may not be perfect, it may not be 100%, but if your kid's lying, you only need to, only 50% of the time do you need to be right, right?
	Because if your kid's lying to you, and then you catch them, like, show me where you threw up in the playground, then that scares your kid into not lying as much, and, you know, you only need to catch them once in a while, right?
	I mean, if you're a really good criminal, but the police catch you 50% of the time, you're not really a very good criminal, even if they only catch you 10% of the time.
	So my guess is that at some level, in your soul, in your heart of hearts, you're trying to figure, you're trying to map the lies around you.
	And the way to map the lies around you, if the lies are about how much people care for you, the way to map the lies around you is to lie And see who notices.
	So I think you were testing whether your parents were liars.
	Because liars generally don't confront other liars very much because it's kind of a mutually assured destruction scenario, right?
	And I think you were trying to figure out how much you were cared for.
	Is it real? Is it not real?
	Do other people notice or not notice?
	Do they care about you much at all?
	That's my theory.
	Tell me how that lands for you.
	Now, after years, I think it's not just the parents that I was trying to check if they really care about me.
	You know, with so many bad experiences after years, I cannot say what was the state of mind at that point.
	But the theory makes sense, for sure.
	Well, and you're right about it being about society as a whole.
	You're right about it being about society as a whole.
	You know, I mean, from my own experience, I grew up in a society where children are everything, children are the future, we love our kids, we love our kids, right?
	You know, and I was being horribly abused, and my mother was institutionalized, and nobody lifted a finger, nobody cared, nobody asked, nobody did anything.
	So that's where you just go, okay, society is just lying.
	It's just lying as a whole about how much it cares about children.
	And of course I wasn't the only one.
	Not most, some of my friends were going through difficult childhoods and nobody did anything about anything.
	And society doesn't care.
	You know, if society cared, right, even if I was this terrible person that some people portray me as, they would say, well, gee, what happened to this kid when he was little that, you know, he turned out to be this terrible person or whatever, and it would be pretty easy.
	You know, you'd have a good story behind how I was raised and what happened in society to say, oh, yes, but he turned into a terrible person, but you have to understand that there were these dominoes in his childhood, right?
	But they don't do any of that, right?
	Of course they don't, right? So, and that's why when I had a party and all the neighbors kept calling the cops, it's like, oh, so when I'm being beaten, you don't call the cops, right?
	But if I'm having fun with my friends and it's a little too loud, oh, then you're all calling the cops, right?
	So it's just, society is pretty sad that way.
	And it's very hard to improve society because society is addicted to virtue signaling, to pretending to be good.
	Well, actually enabling evildoers.
	And it's really tough.
	You know, you at least are coming and saying to me, like, Steph, I got a big problem.
	It cost me a lot.
	I don't have much of a life.
	My fiance's left me. You know, you got a big problem.
	Society isn't even remotely close to the place where it can say, yeah, we got a problem because we kind of talk about how important children are, but We don't care when they're being abused or harmed or mutilated these days.
	So, yeah, I mean, society as a whole is not even at the place where there's any inkling that there's a massive problem.
	In fact, if you point out that there's a massive problem, you're the evil guy.
	That's how far society is from solving things.
	And I think if you're a good-hearted person who cares about integrity and virtue and honesty...
	It's kind of tough to wake up in the world and say, this is kind of hell in a way, right?
	Because everybody claims virtue and does the opposite.
	And if you point out their hypocrisy, they'll call you evil and try to destroy you.
	Like, that's kind of hell in a way, right?
	Because then to be virtuous is to be threatened and tortured and abused and neglected and ostracized and all of that, right?
	So to be good, which is supposed to make you happier, to be good...
	And have integrity and say to people, you should do what you say, right?
	That's basic integrity, right?
	If I say children should be treated well, then you should treat children well.
	I mean, obviously, right?
	That's kind of important, right?
	If you say going to church is essential for virtue and I want to be virtuous, you should go to church.
	And so when people go to society and say, well, you all say that you care so much about children...
	But you exploit them for money, the national debt.
	You beat them. You genitally mutilate them.
	A lot of the males, particularly, of course, at birth, you put them in these terrible schools.
	You lie to them about the virtue of their society.
	And then when the children complain, you drug them.
	When the children are not happy, particularly the boys, and they're bored in gynocentric schools, you drug them.
	We could go on and on, but you say that children are very important and you'd do anything for your kids and children of the future, but you treat them worse than you would treat serfs or livestock.
	I mean, you don't put livestock on antidepressants for being unhappy about being chained to a...
	In a pen. So, my guess is, and again, I'm not trying to put my worldview on yours, but my guess is, if you listen to the show, I assume that you care about integrity and honesty and virtue and consistency, and the good treatment of children.
	And society treats children like absolute trash, for the most part.
	Actually, worse than trash, because the least trash you just throw out and ignore.
	They exploit children.
	And... When you start to point that out in society...
	Now, society doesn't have a defense, right?
	They can't say, well, no, we never said we care about children, because, of course, everyone's like, oh, I would do anything for my children.
	I care so much about my children, blah, blah, blah.
	And when you point out that how they act is often in direct opposition to the virtues they claim, then, well, they'll nail you to a tree, right?
	So... Again, I'm not trying to say your experience is my experience, but I think this is a very common experience for people as a whole, to wake up and say, this could all be self-serving bullshit.
	Like, society could all be self-serving bullshit.
	It could all be about the pretense of virtue and feeling good about feeling good.
	But not actually being good.
	In fact, if you say to people, you should practice the virtues you preach, they attack you as evil.
	And I think that, I mean, this is very common.
	I like Poland, but it's common in Poland, just as it is everywhere across the world.
	And of course, Christians have an answer for this, which is original sin and the devil, but with secular people, it just comes down to rank moral hypocrisy.
	So I think if you're into this kind of show, if you were just some stranger on the street, right, we'd have a different approach.
	And again, your experience matters infinitely more than my theories, but I would imagine that you have some suspicion deep down that society is largely self-serving bullshit, and then you're going through this empirical test, Right?
	I'm one giant empirical test, right?
	I got into the most trouble for standing up for children and saying, well, if you were abused as a child, you don't automatically have to spend time with unrepentant abusers as an adult, right?
	Perfectly valid, perfectly morally defensible, way more defensible than a woman leaving an abusive husband because she chose him in the first place.
	You don't choose your parents.
	And so when you say to people, Thank you.
	You should live by the values you preach.
	You should practice what you preach.
	They want to run you out of town on fire.
	And that's the reality of the world that we live in.
	And, you know, people wrote about me on a bunch of different continents and it was all the same, right?
	So this is not just like one mean guy somewhere in a small town.
	And people consumed it and...
	Bought the newspapers and there weren't letters to the editor saying, well, no, this is unreasonable, right?
	So, yeah, I mean, the world is to a large degree a collusion of people absolutely lying to themselves about how virtuous they are and attacking anyone who points out the lie.
	That's just the way the world is.
	I mean, of course, we're hoping to improve it and the world's still better than it used to be, but it's got a hell of a long way to go and it's not even at the point of admitting an issue.
	So my theory around this kind of addiction is you're falling and you're falling and you're falling and you're waiting for someone to catch you.
	You're waiting for somebody to care about you enough to catch you, to get to the root of the issue, to ask you how you're doing, to figure out what's going on.
	Not just to condemn you or roll their eyes at you or get mad at you for falling back into your bad habits or anything like that, but to simply sort of say, okay, well, what's really at the root of this?
	Why would you do something this self-destructive?
	Well, I think a lot of it has to do with I think you're waiting for someone to notice and catch you.
	Someone who claims to love you is going to notice and do something really deep and meaningful and important to try and catch you.
	And I think you've spent 16 years falling Your falling could drive a car.
	And I think that you're hoping to bounce today, right?
	Someone's going to notice and try and catch you, if that makes any sense.
	It does, it does.
	I'm just thinking of...
	Because I have the...
	How to call it?
	My pattern now, my theme with the relations is that I'm Extra engaging.
	I'm engaged in some person and I'm really lonely, which means it was only the fiancé that was close to me.
	No friends, everything spread out.
	Okay, so one way we can test the theory is if you can tell me about your relationship with the girl...
	Your fiancé. So, how did you meet?
	And how did the relationship go?
	And how long have you been going out?
	And then what happened when you relapsed?
	We met on the car sharing.
	And I even...
	I'm sorry, on the what?
	Car sharing. If you...
	Well... Car sharing?
	Car sharing. I don't know...
	Car sharing. Sorry, sorry. My bad earphone.
	Sorry. Car sharing. Go ahead.
	Yeah. So...
	With the previous relationship, I went to the other town.
	Actually, I met the girl on the internet.
	And I was...
	How to call it?
	I fell in love.
	Yeah, I did, I did.
	But the thing is, I went to the town that I didn't know anyone.
	I was trying to get into the society.
	I couldn't. The whole relationship took three and a half years.
	I was really honestly, publicly saying many things.
	I believe that if the couple is together three years and there is no engagement, there is no proposal, There's something wrong with the relation.
	And I was saying that in front of my ex-girlfriend at the moment and it didn't happen which means there was something wrong for sure.
	So at the end of that relationship my parents proposed me that they can buy an apartment in there so we don't have to rent it.
	So they did. And two months later my relation It was broken.
	And I was going to rent this flat to someone else half a year later, probably.
	And I started at therapy at the moment.
	Sorry, I'm just trying to piece this together a little bit.
	So you were with the girl for three years.
	There was no proposal. Your parents said, we'll basically buy you an apartment.
	And then you move in with the girl.
	And then two months later, you've broken up.
	Is that right? Yes, yes, because I couldn't.
	I had some limitation in my mind.
	I was told to start a business like my dad does.
	And I never wanted that.
	Well, hang on, hang on. So, do you know why your girlfriend broke up with you two months after you moved into the place provided by your parents?
	Well, it was gambling as well.
	But not just that.
	She met someone at the same time.
	No, I know that. But do you know why she was looking for someone?
	Probably because I didn't propose.
	She didn't feel confident.
	No, because you hadn't proposed for over three years, right?
	Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so it happened when you moved into Daddy's apartment, right?
	I didn't? Well, yes, yes.
	Okay, so it happened because she lost respect for you because you weren't out there earning your own apartment but just taking daddy's apartment.
	Like women need to see you succeed.
	They need to see you out there battling in the world.
	They need to see you winning resources.
	Not just being handed things.
	Because she needs to see you as a man.
	But when daddy gives you things, she can only see you as a son and a child.
	Stefan, I know. I know.
	I have that problem and issue even now.
	It was the story that I'm telling you.
	It's like five years ago.
	I have the same problem now.
	I know. I'm just trying to give you some cause and effect, potentially.
	Yeah, but it wasn't a gift.
	We agreed for the market rule loan with the apartment because I was hearing so much during my life that I... I own something from my parents.
	They deserve respect from me because I have an easier life because of them.
	So I propose to them that, okay, if you can help me with that and I don't have to go to the bank for the loan, let's make a deal with the loan to yourself with the market interest.
	Something like that. So it wasn't a straight-up gift?
	No, it wasn't.
	I'm not the owner of the apartment.
	It was my proposition just not to have a gift.
	I didn't want to have a gift, so they would kind of...
	Put a loop on me, you know, with...
	who gave you that.
	Yes, but...
	Okay, how did your girlfriend at the time...
	This is sort of five years ago, I get it.
	Your girlfriend at the time, how did she get along with your parents?
	Well, she was fine, but she wasn't...
	Well, they really liked her.
	There was nothing against her.
	Maybe they didn't... No, no, no.
	That's not what I asked.
	I didn't ask whether they liked her.
	I asked how she got along with them.
	Did she like them? Yes, unless they were fighting, which happened a lot, which also made my phone red from calls.
	From them. Okay, so I appreciate the correction about the gift, but if you get involved in a business arrangement with your parents, it means they're going to be even more involved in your life with her, and if that's a problem for her, she's not going to like that.
	Yes, and I didn't like that as well, which means I didn't start that business at all.
	I was just closed myself.
	How do you call it? I was getting into the corner of the room with no hope.
	I didn't want that.
	I didn't want to do what they proposed to me.
	I didn't want to do the same business as my dad did.
	I had very negative emotions about this.
	Because he's a serviceman of air conditioners.
	Yeah, HVAC. Now, what were you making money at in your 20s?
	When I finished high school, I went on a trip, not knowing anything, anyone, and where I'm actually going, and went to Norway by hitchhiking.
	And I started to do some shitty jobs at the beginning, but at the end, because my plan was to make money on my studies and do it by my own, not getting it from my parents.
	And they were very often offering me, we will give you whatever you want, just go to study, do a degree, some good ones, so you will have your future fixed.
	But I didn't want that, so I made a year off and went to Norway and I started to paint houses after a while.
	I was doing a good job, I was always organized and managing the right way.
	I was delivering everything what I was...
	Sorry, you said painting houses?
	Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay, got it.
	I've done that, by the way. Yeah, it's not the worst job in the world, but go on.
	I started with the worst at the beginning on the car washes.
	Well... Really underpaid and with really bad conditions.
	But anyway, I found out that I can paint houses.
	And before studies, I applied for getting to the university.
	They wanted me.
	I had so much work that I had to get my friends to Norway to help me.
	Because I couldn't do it on my own.
	So, yeah, it was quite successful, and I was really proud of myself, and I got some power.
	I got some confidence in myself, in my abilities, possibilities.
	Well, yeah, and I came back to start studying, but there was gambling, which means I was studying something really Stupid, I would say, at the moment.
	Because I was studying being a football coach.
	But I already had all the qualifications.
	I just wanted to know more.
	And the studies happened to be just a place for the students that want the student life.
	And the teachers just to have the teacher's wage.
	That's it. It was really...
	I know what's the standards now, but on the full-time study I had 10 hours weekly.
	I didn't know that, that that's even possible, that you can have so low amount of hours.
	And I didn't have any idea better than gambling, you know, in the spare time.
	But why did you leave the house painting business in Norway?
	I promised them I would go study.
	That was like the obvious answer for my parents, for myself.
	At that moment, I couldn't imagine that I'm not going to have some university degree.
	Okay, so then you went to go and study football management, which was 10 hours a week and kind of a waste of time, right?
	Yes, yes. And I quit it before the first exam session, to be honest.
	So, three months. That's it.
	And I went back to Norway at the moment.
	Oh, okay. So, I think also people in Norway helped me because of my story.
	I told everyone.
	I was hitchhiking and that was my way to get the customers, you know, getting into the stranger's car and telling them, hey, I just came.
	I would like to make money on my studies.
	And coming back then, I thought I cannot use the same contacts because, well, I was really telling the true story and I don't want to show myself that I was cheating or I was lying.
	I wasn't at the moment. So I start from the beginning again, from some shitty jobs.
	And came back to the painting business and house renovation after a few months.
	Right, and then?
	And then I developed so well that I brought a few friends to work with me.
	I was told to open a company to give the invoices for my customers to do it, you know, all legal way.
	But there was a gambling still.
	So I was really keen for all the friends but not keen to myself in a way.
	Now, did your girlfriend at the time know you were gambling?
	I didn't have a girlfriend at that time.
	That's before you met the other woman.
	And did your friends, your parents, anybody know or care or notice?
	Parents knew. I guess friends knew, but nobody was really involved so much to just kind of shake me, stop me.
	I really didn't have any Any single strong conversation coming from a friend about any problem, and they knew...
	I mean, your parents knew that you had a gambling problem from your teenage years, and did they ever check in and see whether it was still going on?
	Yeah, they did. They were the ones.
	But we had such a bad relation that I wasn't listening, to be honest, at the moment.
	So you would just lie to them, I guess, and say, no, I don't have a gambling problem?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And also, I was earning a lot of money at the moment.
	I could really... I didn't have any debts.
	I didn't have anyone who was looking after me with any debts.
	Can you tell me a time in your life where you have felt really loved, from childhood onwards, like really loved, really taken care of, really accepted and really loved?
	No, I think it's just the moment.
	I cannot tell you that it took a long time.
	I think it's just the moments that I felt loved and struggled to think if there was any moment that it wasn't me who was the creator of the whole moment.
	Well, when you're a child, it comes from outside, right?
	When you're a child, it almost always should come from your parents, right?
	A time when you felt really loved and accepted and treasured by your parents when you were little, let's say.
	When I was until seven, I guess I was the one who was their shining star.
	They were really proud of me.
	Being proud of someone is not the same as being loved.
	Because being proud is something that you have to have some sort of status achievement.
	You know, my mom, when I was in grade 8, I was taking adult writing classes and adult computer science classes, and my mom would brag about this.
	Oh, he's so smart. He does these adult writing classes, creative writing, and he's taking adult computer science classes and all.
	But that wasn't me.
	That was just some accomplishment that she could show off, if that makes sense.
	And then maybe that was different with your parents, but being proud of someone is not quite the same as loving them.
	So I know just being proud of me, not the other one.
	Right. So this is sort of the second theory that I wanted, and this will be much faster, but the second theory goes something like this.
	Why is it that people gamble?
	Right? So they gamble because they want something for nothing.
	You double your money, right?
	Now you could say, well, the something is you understand football and that, but you want something for nothing.
	In other words, you believe that you're owed something, and I think that deep down you are owed something.
	I mean, you're certainly owed love as a child, which means to take pleasure in who you are.
	Not because of what you do or some, oh, he's really good at hitting a baseball or he's really good at football or he's really smart because none of those things are moral things and none of those things are your essence.
	So taking genuine delight in you as a person.
	Genuine delight in you as a person and treasuring you as a person.
	I mean, kids are owed that.
	That's the price of being a parent.
	There's lots of great rewards of being a parent, and this is one of them as well.
	But the price is you owe your children deep love for who they are.
	Not for just what they do like some sort of performing monkey, but for who they are.
	Now, if as a child you felt that you were owed something that you weren't getting...
	Then it's kind of possible, possible, that you might spend your entire life trying to get something for nothing because you were owed something for nothing as a kid.
	And that something for nothing is, love me for who I am.
	Don't make me perform.
	Don't make me have conditions.
	But take delight in who I am.
	Take great pleasure in who I am.
	Love me. And I shouldn't have to be out there Performing it.
	Or I shouldn't have to have a great physique or great hair.
	I shouldn't have to be really funny or witty.
	I shouldn't have to win a sports prize or an academic prize just for who I am in a relaxed state of non-performance.
	Children are owed that.
	Now, it could be that one of the reasons you're drawn towards gambling is to avoid grieving what you should have gotten but didn't.
	And now you're trying to get something for nothing, in a sense, to make up for what you weren't provided, which is why I asked you when you felt loved for who you are.
	Well, it makes sense.
	It does. Did your girlfriend...
	You know, it's tough because adults can't fix that for us.
	Girlfriends can't fix it.
	Countries can't fix it.
	The army can't fix it.
	Consumption can't fix it.
	Money can't fix it. Beauty can't fix it.
	If we didn't get loved for who we are as a child, there's no fix.
	There's no fix. There's lots of people who will say, oh, no, no, no, here's a fix.
	You know, just go to the gym.
	You'll make a lot of money.
	Right? This is the Tate thing.
	Drive a Bugatti and be top G. And none of them, it doesn't fix it.
	None of it fixes it. If you didn't get love as a child, the only fix is to mourn it.
	Yeah. That's a real shame.
	It's a real shame. There's a lot of sorrow in that.
	There's anger in it. For sure, because not being given what you're owed is tough.
	But everything that you talk about involves a debt of some kind, right?
	You borrow money from your friends, you end up in money in debt to the bookies, and you owe your girlfriend a proposal after three years, and there's a lot of debt involved.
	And I think that debt is pretty central, obviously, to gambling addictions.
	Some addictions pay the debt in terms of future health issues.
	If this, you pay the debt actually monetarily.
	And I think it's because you were owed something that wasn't provided to you.
	And you're recreating that.
	You're recreating, trying to get something from nothing, and ending up screwed.
	Because all children reach out for their parents.
	Reach out, and sometimes you have to reach out so far you fall out of yourself.
	Reach out for your parents. Please love me.
	Please connect with me.
	Please take an interest in me.
	Please enjoy my existence.
	Please. Because you're the only people who can give me food and you're the only people who can give me love.
	And you keep, with the gambling, you keep reaching out for people to try and get something for nothing.
	Something you don't have to earn, in a sense.
	And then you keep ending up short.
	And I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure, Doesn't mean I'm certain, obviously.
	I'm pretty sure there's kind of a pattern with your parents.
	If you don't feel loved, like you said, you couldn't remember a time where you felt genuinely loved by your parents.
	If you were to say that to, say, your mom or your dad, what would they say, do you think?
	I would say... How can you say so if we gave you so much?
	And I'm not saying about my stuff, but this engagement with my mom.
	We're going on with taking care so much more than the neighbor kids.
	How can you say so if we were engaged in your problems?
	How can you say so if we Right, so if you were to say, I feel kind of rejected by you, the first thing that they would do is reject you.
	The first thing they would do is reject you.
	So you say, I don't feel particularly loved, which means that you kind of rejected me or didn't accept who I was or didn't love me for who I am.
	So if you're honest with your parents about a deficiency you find in the relationship, then the first thing they'll do is reject you and say, how can you say that?
	You're wrong! I mean, I can't imagine if my daughter came to me and said, I don't feel loved.
	My first response would not be to say, oh, you're crazy.
	Of course you're loved.
	I mean, look at all that I've done for you.
	I mean, it would be like, wow, I'm really surprised.
	I'm upset, of course, but tell me more.
	That would be that if you love someone, whatever they say to you, You ask for more.
	There's always more. That's why we can have monogamous relationships that last 60 years, right?
	There's always more, right?
	So if my daughter said, Dad, I don't feel loved.
	Like, wow, I'm really surprised.
	I'm obviously upset and I want to fix it.
	But, you know, tell me more. Tell me more.
	When did you start to feel that?
	What is that like?
	Or how do you know? Not how do you know, like I'm challenging her, but like what evidence?
	And that sounds like I'm asking her for proof, but what is it that you think gives rise to that feeling?
	Like what have you seen that gives rise to that feeling?
	Not to prove her wrong, just so I could understand things from her perspective, right?
	But if you say, mom and dad, I kind of feel like you've never taken any interest in me in a deep, meaningful way, and then they say, oh, you're totally wrong about that.
	It's like, well, you're just kind of rejecting me again, right?
	Yeah, but they would say that they did.
	They asked, but the answers they got never...
	Never made them interest.
	They challenged whatever I was answering, actually.
	So now we get to the point where they think that I'm so weird, so unsocial, that I don't fit in their society.
	In a way, I agree.
	Yeah, I'm listening to the point where I disagree.
	This is a pretty good society to not fit into, isn't it?
	Yes, yes. Right, but here's what you don't want, right?
	I mean, maybe this is part of the reason for the call, too.
	Man, my friend, you do not want to end up stuck between these two worlds, right?
	So there's the world of illusion, right?
	This is the cave wall of Plato.
	It's the world of illusion where people, they aren't actually good and virtuous, but they talk endlessly about how good and virtuous they are.
	And if you challenge them on the difference between their words and their actions, they'll just attack you.
	And they may, in fact, try to destroy you.
	So that's the world of illusion, world of fantasy.
	And then there's another world, which is the world where people accept that this is the way that most of the world is.
	Not all of it, but most of it.
	And they try to have as little as possible to do with that asylum called society as a whole.
	And they look for other like-minded souls who know the truth, but who also aren't bitter, you know, black-pilled and just bitter and can't see any future or any hope or any chance for happiness or love.
	You know, like refugees from the asylum of the planet don't have to end up alone.
	My concern is that if you are waking up to what I think of as some of the craziness and hypocrisy of society, that you'll say, well, the solution is It's to be alone.
	The solution is isolation.
	That's not the solution.
	That's not the solution.
	There is a world of...
	It's not a huge world, but it's definitely there, of honest people who tell the truth and who understand the dangers of the blue-pilled world and try not to get overly involved in the machinery of the world of illusion.
	And that you can have a beautiful life.
	I mean, I say this from a personal experience.
	I say you can have a beautiful life with people who see the truth, but you can't have much of anything with people who lie for a living or lie for a living as a whole.
	So my concern is you're going to get stuck in between, like you'll feel alienated from the world of illusion, but you won't make it to the world of connection, of truth, integrity, honesty.
	We're stuck in between, but not just about that.
	It's stuck in between of people who can engage, who can be really engaged in someone's life, who can give more than get back, and the people who just live their lives.
	I have this problem and this pattern even with the relations.
	I'm giving a lot.
	I'm taking care more of the partner than I'm taking care of myself.
	And I'm getting to the point where I'm really waiting for that partner to give me Good luck, and it never happened.
	Well, but that's, I assume that's your relationship with your parents as a whole, right?
	And if you haven't received love and you haven't grieved that, you can't receive love because it's too painful.
	And your parents don't want you, your parents really don't want you to experience somebody being kind and generous with you because it will highlight what they haven't done.
	I mean, it's wild, man.
	When I finally met someone who was kind and generous to me, and really, really cared for me, every other one of my relationships fell apart.
	And it wasn't the plan, it wasn't the goal, I wasn't plotting this out.
	It's just the way it played.
	It's just the way it played out. You get one real relationships.
	You know, I mean, if you've lived on a steady diet of plastic fruit your whole life and somebody finally gives you a real banana, you can't really go back to the plastic fruit.
	Especially if there's more bananas, right?
	If you've been eating shit sandwiches your whole life and somebody gives you some nice roast beef and Havarti, you ain't going back.
	So what happened with your fiancé when you relapsed?
	Was there anything that happened in your life that you think may have triggered a relapse?
	You said it's sometimes stress-related.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	Relapse? I don't have to translate it.
	Oh, sorry. No, I may have misunderstood.
	So you were together with your fiancé, your recent – your fiancé.
	And then did you start gambling again and then the relationship ended?
	No, not the first time.
	So just by going and renting out that apartment I met my fiancé, the only one.
	the girl that I that I love and I I lost her now that's the third third time when I Okay, so help me understand.
	So you were together with this fiancé, and were you not gambling for part of that relationship?
	Most of that relationship.
	Okay, so you weren't gambling, and then was there something happened, do you think, that gave you the impulse to start gambling again?
	Yes, of course. And what happened?
	We met when I was starting the first serious therapy and I was working with my dad and living there.
	We got really quick together.
	It was mostly because of me, of course.
	I was a pussy beggar.
	I was really fighting for her love.
	She wasn't so into it from the beginning, but I was fighting hard.
	And we got quick together, but I was really not smashed.
	I had a problem with being outside of her.
	We rented a flat in a city and not where my parents were living and not where I was working.
	So we were meeting only on a weekend and We started to get fights with my dad.
	He was trying to put me in some pressure with being more involved in the company.
	Which I didn't want again.
	So after a fight I came back to my fiancé and made a holiday.
	A week off. Because the atmosphere was not possible.
	I was trying to think what I can do to break the relationship with my dad.
	The work relationship.
	To stop working with him.
	And I was trying to get in touch with anyone except my fiancé.
	I was trying to call my friends, ex-friends, that were living in the city.
	And during like one week, I was really getting down and down and down.
	None of those meetings actually happened.
	I also tried to contact the Fiance of my ex-fiance's sister.
	Just to get in touch, to build something, you know?
	And during one week I was dropped down by a few people feeling really alone and couldn't force myself to actually go to any other work in Poland You know, like from ground zero, from the bottom.
	I was panically afraid, and I think I still have it.
	But if I go now with my CV that I have at the moment, I have to start from the very bottom.
	And I was so afraid of it, comparing to what I think I achieved and I think I had in my history.
	Then I broke.
	Broke inside and I got to gambling.
	I was gambling like a week.
	Getting some loans when I lost my money.
	And well, I risked everything I had.
	Also the relationship.
	Sorry, did your fiancé know that you had gambled again?
	Not at the beginning. She found out at the end.
	So that's the pattern.
	And how long did you gamble for before she found out?
	More than a week.
	I don't know, 10 days, something like that.
	And how much did you lose?
	About $30,000.
	And that's obviously a good chunk of your savings?
	Yes, yes. Well, it was all of my savings and then the loans that I got.
	So the loans over and above the 30,000?
	No, no, no. It was all together like 30,000, but let's say the 10 out of my savings and 20 in loans.
	And that's a lot for 7 to 10 days, right?
	It is, it is. I'm not rejecting that that's the lot.
	No, no, no. I'm not arguing that it is.
	I'm just pointing it out just for myself to sort of adjust.
	Okay. And so 10 of that was your savings and then you ended up 20,000 in the hole, right?
	Yeah. And at that point, you know, like with the last bet, and it always is a pattern for a heavily addict that they are putting all in.
	So if I lose, which is what happens, then...
	I have to confess. I have nowhere to go.
	I don't have any other loaning options or, I don't know, someone to borrow from.
	I couldn't cover it up.
	It would get out, for sure.
	I don't know if it's important for this knowledge, but my therapy, I didn't finish it.
	It stopped during the pandemic.
	They shut the office.
	I'm sorry to hear that, of course, but let me just go back to your fiancé.
	You're having a terrible time.
	You want to quit your... Job with your dad, your father, and you're kind of freaking out and panicking.
	So, where's your fiancé?
	Were you guys living together at this time?
	Was she unavailable? Why wouldn't you talk with her?
	I think I was talking with her, but she never understood how I can react with such a panic.
	Before going to some other work.
	She didn't understand it at the moment.
	Hang on.
	We've been talking almost two hours.
	I didn't understand your life when we first started talking, but you keep asking questions, right?
	I don't understand what it means to say she doesn't understand.
	I mean, doesn't she just keep asking questions until she understands?
	When we met, she got this news that I'm an addict very soon.
	She didn't understand how big a danger is.
	That was the first time that that touched me.
	Yeah, no, sorry, you're not answering.
	We're talking at different places now.
	So you had some anxiety, severe anxiety, about quitting working for your dad and starting your own business, right?
	Or working for someone else?
	Yes. Is that right?
	I asked, why didn't you talk about this with your fiancé?
	And you said, well, my fiancé doesn't understand why I'm so anxious.
	Is that right? Yes, that's right.
	But when you're in a relationship, if you don't understand something, you keep asking until you do understand it.
	Isn't that how relationships work?
	Is there something different in Poland?
	Isn't that you just keep asking until you know?
	No, Stefan, but being addicted is...
	I'm not trying to explain her or myself, but one thing that I learned on the therapy is that I wasn't able to say, help me.
	I wasn't articulating that.
	I had this pattern even when I was a kid in a school, that when something was wrong, when I felt pain touched by something, I don't know, even someone made fun of me.
	I was getting into the corner and trying to find out someone who will see me there.
	See, I mean this in no way critically because I'm not sure if you're lying to yourself or you're lying to me about this.
	And I'm not saying this in any way negative.
	I'm just an observation, right?
	Because you've been very open in explaining your life to me.
	And you've asked for help.
	So when you say, well, I couldn't ask for help and I couldn't...
	It's not true.
	Now, maybe the difference is, I'm listening.
	And I'm not trying to make you feel bad.
	And even this, like when I say lying to yourself or lying to me, I don't mean this in any judgmental way at all.
	It's not a moral, it's just an observation.
	That if you say to the person you're asking for help, I can't ask for help.
	That's just a false statement by definition, right?
	It doesn't mean you're, you know, just...
	Why couldn't you talk to your fiancé?
	And again, I don't mean this in any accusatory way.
	But if you're feeling really upset and you have someone who loves you, don't you talk about it with the person who loves you.
	Now, the upset is not the gambling thing because the gambling addiction is separate.
	The gambling addiction came out of Or the gambling acting out.
	The act of gambling came out of not talking to your fiancé.
	Because if you had talked to your fiancé and you had been listened to and maybe it took three days to have that conversation where she keeps saying, I'm trying to understand.
	Tell me more. I'm still trying to put it together.
	Tell me more. I want to make sure I figure this out right at the bottom.
	Keep telling me more. If you'd had that conversation, I consider it impossible that you would have gone and gambled away all of that money.
	So, what's the issue with talking to your fiancé?
	Why could that not happen?
	Yeah, so that's the question, is why could you not talk to your fiancé?
	Now, you're going to blame yourself, right?
	And you're going to say, well, I didn't talk to my fiancé because I'm just not good at asking for help.
	Well, that's just blaming yourself, and that doesn't give you any knowledge.
	That just gives you self-attack.
	So, my guess is that you couldn't talk to your fiancé because your fiancé wasn't listening, wasn't asking you questions, wasn't giving you a place where you could talk, that she was just judging you or getting mad or distant or, you know...
	I don't understand why you're so scared.
	That's kind of like an insult, right?
	Like, you have no reason to be so scared.
	It's like, well, but I am, right?
	So you can either try and understand me or you can judge me as deficient for being scared, right?
	So I guess my basic question is, what was wrong in your relationship?
	Now, maybe that's partly you and partly her, right?
	But you couldn't talk to your fiancé.
	Maybe I was afraid of confessing that, that I'm like...
	Well, no. See, again, you're just saying you, right?
	Right. Okay, let me put it to you this way.
	Why are you not scared to tell these things to me, but you were scared to tell them to your fiancé?
	I was scared then.
	I'm not scared anymore.
	She knows that now. I was...
	No, but you can't have a fear that's so paralyzing that you're going to risk you, you're going to destroy your entire potential marriage, and then just be able to talk about it easily with me.
	So my suggestion is, because look, okay, how long ago did you break up with your fiancé?
	A week. A week and a half.
	A week and a half. Okay. So, first of all, it may not be over.
	I don't know, obviously, but it may not be over.
	But if you take the whole blame on yourself, oh, I gambled, I broke my word to her, I broke my trust with her, and I wasn't honest, and I lost all this money.
	Like, if you just make it about, I'm bad, I'm bad, I'm bad, then I don't think that's an accurate...
	No, no, Stefan, I would like to add something to the story, because that was the first time.
	But it happened two more times, you know?
	And I'm not saying that to get more blame on myself.
	I would just, you know...
	No, no, see, that actually puts more blame on her.
	Because if she had not figured out what was causing these relapses or what was triggering this gambling, relapse just means that you returned back to a bad habit, So if she loves you and cares about you and hadn't figured out what caused this gambling, she's even more to blame.
	Or you could say she's even more responsible.
	I'm not saying she's not.
	No, no, no, no.
	No, no, Higgen, I'm an empiricist.
	You haven't said to me anything she did wrong.
	It was all about you doing things wrong.
	Yes, but the last time, the time that brought me here, the time that told me, okay, I was trying to call Stefan, but now I'm really, you know, broke into I was trying to call Stefan, but now I'm really, you know, broke into pieces, and I think I Your view as well on why?
	Why am I doing this?
	What's wrong with the history that I inherited or actually build up as well?
	I'm a part of it as well.
	That happened now.
	That happened after one and a half year of being sober, coming back again from Norway, not building up any life and But you gambled because you're angry at her.
	And by destroying her savings and going into debt and, quote, betraying her trust, you're angry at her.
	Yes, yes, I can give you details of it.
	I was talking about the third time that it happened that I came back to gambling, which was recently, where I'm...
	at the end where I'm standing now because it started like a month ago the gambling but when it really started I guess it's when I came back again from Norway and this is when I'm complaining about that I don't have my life because I'm always traveling from Poland to Norway you know doing making some money Norway coming back in Poland but nowhere being Installed.
	Not having real life.
	Either in Norway or in Poland.
	So I came back and I was waiting for other projects to continue.
	And it stopped me from again going to some work.
	Uh... I'm trying to install myself where we live together.
	Okay, but how does that make...
	Sorry, I don't understand.
	How does that make you angry at her?
	Well, it's...
	What happened was that I was two months only helping her.
	She was involved in her life.
	She was involved in her jobs.
	Uh... But I was just going into the corner of the flat corner of the room, you know, without really being noticed that I have a huge loneliness issue.
	But I'm lonely, yeah.
	We were getting to some Community, the new people, you know, the chance to change it, the chance to have something positive in our life, to have some new friends,
	make some new friends. And there was even a difference in what she wanted to say in front of them and what I wanted to say, we have no social life, we have no friends.
	I was desperate to make those friends, and I wasn't afraid of saying, hello, I'm like, we are lonely, we don't have the social life in here.
	And she was at the moment of No, I don't want to say so.
	I would like to say, yeah, let's make some new friends, being more optimistic.
	She didn't want to be at the same level of desperateness that I was.
	If you know what I mean, if you understand what I was...
	Okay, so you had a difference of opinion on how to approach friendships, right?
	Yes, but I was...
	The difference came, and I guess that's accurate, that she was doing something at that time.
	I had only her and only being alone in a flat.
	I had nothing to do, waiting for my parents to let me refresh their house, because that was their agreement, and my customer that I advised To make a break at some point and don't make some job twice because she was not ready to do it all at once.
	So I was waiting for both of those projects to let me do my work until I will move on.
	Okay, what is it that made you angry at your girlfriend?
	I don't understand any of this and how this directly leads to anger with your girlfriend.
	Well, you started to ask me about anger, but...
	If you weren't angry, sorry, I said that I thought you were angry at your girlfriend, and that's why you destroyed your savings.
	And I thought you said you were angry with your girlfriend, so I'm asking what you were angry about.
	Now, if you weren't or I'm wrong, that's totally fine, but I'm just not sure what we're talking about at the moment.
	Well, Stefan, I agree, but...
	I wasn't on the same level to straight up say I was angry on her because of something, and I will try to clear it out.
	I am disappointed that just going down on my mood, just going down into the corner of the room, just being less and less enthusiastic, It was not enough, because I don't know how should I... Okay, no, I understand.
	So you were signaling to her that you were upset, or you were withdrawn, or you weren't saying anything, and you wanted her to ask you about being upset, right?
	Yes, and you told the same thing, that with the third comeback to addiction, that's what should happen.
	That was my pattern, in a way.
	Right. This time. Okay, so here's the thing, right?
	You were owed that by your parents.
	You were owed that by your parents.
	Attempting to get your fiancé to do what your parents didn't do is manipulative.
	You're an adult. You're over 30.
	If you feel upset, Now, when you were a kid, it wasn't your job to say to your parents, I'm upset, I feel this, I feel that, right?
	It was your parents' job to know how you felt.
	And it sounds like they didn't do that.
	They failed at that job pretty hard.
	Okay, and that's something to mourn.
	But expecting your girlfriend or your fiancé to step in and ask you how you're doing and to make up for all of the things that happened to you as a child is asking her to treat you like a child.
	She's not going to want to do that.
	She's not going to want to do that.
	Now, if you ask her to treat you as a child, she might do it, but then she will lose respect for you.
	What you, as an adult, the way you break the patterns of childhood is you do things that are different.
	In fact, you do things that are opposite, right?
	So if, as a child, you expected your parents, and you sure were right to expect your parents to figure out how you felt and help you manage and deal with it and all of that, but they didn't do that, then as an adult, expecting other people to do that is asking them to step into your parents to do what your parents did, didn't do rather, and to treat you like a child.
	But she's going to experience that as being manipulative, like you're sulking, and she's not going to want to give you what you want because she wants to retain her respect for you as an adult male.
	As an adult male, if you're upset, what are you supposed to say?
	I'm upset. Yeah!
	I'm upset. I'm troubled.
	I'm bothered by this. I'm bothered by that.
	I don't know what's going on and all that, right?
	Like when I didn't understand what you were talking about a few minutes ago, did I just start to become non-responsive and not answer you back?
	No, because that would have been really confusing for you, right?
	Like, Steph was really engaged in the conversation and now he's just going, ugh, or not responding much at all.
	And then you'd have to sort of sit back and then, okay, well, was it, yeah, maybe it was when I was talking about things and maybe I wasn't as clear.
	Like, as opposed to me saying, I don't understand what you're saying, can you repeat it?
	Or can you tell me how this relates to you being upset with your girlfriend, right?
	I tell you what's going on for me rather than getting quiet and expecting you to figure out What's going wrong or what's going on with me?
	Does that make sense? Yes, it does.
	Now, if I had been upset with you, and this is not a major thing, right?
	But if I'd been upset with you, and rather than saying, I don't understand what we're talking about, or can you be more clear about this, or I don't understand how this connects to my question, if I had just gotten quiet and non-responsive, how would you have felt about that?
	I would try to dig in, to ask, to clear out the signals that I don't really understand, don't get to me.
	If I understand your question, you can repeat it again.
	No, that's fine. So you would have tried to figure out what was going on with me, right?
	Yes, yes. To the point that I really understand it.
	Right. Now, if I had not been honest about what I was thinking and feeling, but instead had gotten quiet in the hopes that you would keep asking me, would you have respected me more or less if I had taken that approach rather than just being direct and honest?
	Less. I'm always trying to get to the bottom when I'm making questions.
	Right. But if I had just gotten quiet and hadn't been honest and direct about what I was thinking and feeling, and you would have had to chase me down and try and figure things out, you would have lost some respect for me, I think, a little, right?
	Yeah, that's possible.
	Now, what if you had to keep doing that?
	That every time I got upset, I just got quiet, And sulked a little or wasn't communicative and you kept having to do it rather than me just saying what was going on for me.
	Would you find that a good thing to go through over and over?
	No. Would it get kind of exhausting after a while?
	Of course. Of course.
	If my... My goal would be to have to know exactly what's going on with you.
	And I wouldn't have that.
	I will have to fight for it every time.
	It would be exhausting. Right.
	And it would be annoying too. Because it's like, why are you making me do all the work?
	Just tell me what you think and feel.
	Yes. So getting quiet, and I don't want to say sulking or pouting because that's kind of insulting, but getting quiet and kind of hoping that someone's going to ask you what the problem is, is not an adult-to-adult relationship.
	That's a child-to-adult relationship.
	Working for your father is a little bit of a child-to-adult relationship.
	Having the financial arrangement with your father about the apartment, while I know, I understand it's not a direct gift, is not exactly an adult-to-adult relationship because it only works, it only really happens because he's your father.
	So I guess my concern is that you seem to be a little bit locked into trying to get from adults, including your parents, what you didn't get as a child.
	That you keep trying to reproduce this child-parent relationship in the hope that it's going to heal things that you didn't get as a child.
	That's my thought. Again, your experience is what matters.
	Well, this is possible.
	I told you another pattern of my relations, not exactly with my parents, but with...
	Love relations or even the friendship that I was trying to make.
	And I was always giving more than I could ever get back and then finding it disappointing.
	Is that correlating with the...
	Well, so that's a child who pours a lot into the parental relationship hoping to get that kind of connection and love back.
	Let me ask you this. I mean, I had a tough childhood.
	Who is responsible, as now I'm an adult, many years an adult, who's responsible for fixing my childhood?
	It should be parents, but it's just you now.
	It's kind of a trick question.
	I'm sorry to be sneaky. It's kind of a trick question because the answer is no one.
	No one is responsible for fixing my childhood because my childhood cannot be fixed.
	Because it's passed. It's like saying, who is responsible for you not losing $30,000?
	Well, you have lost the $30,000, right?
	And therefore, it can't be fixed.
	Now, you can look to the future and learn your lessons.
	But no one can ever, ever, ever fix my childhood.
	No one can reach back with the hands of time and give me love forever.
	Connection, contact, affection when I was a child.
	Because I'm 56 years old.
	My childhood was 40 years ago.
	By the time I was 16 or 17, I was effectively...
	I mean, by the time I was 15, I was paying my own bills.
	But let's just say by the time I was 18 or 20, when I was a functional adult, the door closes.
	The stone ceiling comes down.
	You know, like at the end of every science fiction or usually a fantasy movie, you know, they kill the wizard and then the whole castle comes crumbling down and crashes.
	It's all done. Your childhood, right?
	You're 31 years old.
	Your childhood is 13 plus years ago.
	The time between you and your childhood has now hit puberty.
	No one and nothing can fix your childhood.
	Trying to fix your childhood is like trying to bring people dead a year back to life.
	You just waste a lot of time and electricity, I guess, right?
	You can't fix your childhood.
	Your fiancé can't fix your childhood.
	And your parents.
	Your parents cannot fix your childhood.
	They can't do it. It's absolutely impossible because the past is fixed.
	You know, if you didn't get enough nutrition as a child and you grew up with a curved spine or you're too short or whatever, who can fix that once you're an adult?
	No one. It can't be fixed.
	It can't be fixed.
	That which cannot be fixed has to be grieved.
	That which cannot be fixed has to be grieved.
	And the reason that we still try and get things and people and circumstances to fix our childhood is so we can avoid grieving.
	Recognizing that it can't be fixed and there's no solution.
	Like once I understood, can't fix my childhood.
	Because, look, let's say your parents become wonderful tomorrow.
	Tomorrow, for some reason, they just become wonderful.
	Do you understand why that doesn't fix your childhood?
	And in some ways makes it even worse?
	That will mix up what I'm...
	Well, at the beginning, yeah, my childhood is fixed, done.
	That doesn't change anything and then it would be inconsistent to see them change now.
	Well, if they could be wonderful, if they have the capacity to be wonderful, why on earth didn't they do it when you were a child?
	You know, if you and a friend are dying of thirst in the desert, that's pretty terrible.
	But if just as you die, you see your friend drinking from a big bottle of water he kept hidden from you, that would be even worse, because he kind of killed you, right?
	It means he had water the whole time, he just didn't give any to you.
	And if your parents could be wonderful, but they wait until you're 31 years old to do it, that's even worse.
	Because that meant they could have done it at any time, including the past, and made your childhood way better, but they chose not to.
	If your parents can't do it, if they can't get better, at least you didn't say, well, they were holding out on me as a kid.
	They could have been nice, but they weren't, right?
	Or they couldn't have been more loving.
	It doesn't sound your parents are...
	I mean, they're still fighting ridiculously with each other in their old age and all.
	So... Well, not old age.
	I guess they had you pretty young, but...
	So your parents, your parents can't fix your childhood.
	No one, no power of man, God, or devil can fix a childhood.
	You can learn from it.
	You can do better.
	You can grieve it. But it can't be fixed.
	The suffering that occurs in childhood can only be grieved by the time you become an adult.
	Or, you know, mid-teens and usually then it's sort of kind of too late, right?
	It's like a prison guard who becomes nice on a 10-year sentence six months before you release.
	It's like, well, the point of this, right?
	Or three days before you release, maybe.
	So... If the sort of hypothesis is correct, that you didn't get what you needed as a child, So you want to get what you were owed, and that ties into the gambling and so on.
	And it ties into the kind of pouting, the sulking, the being upset and hoping other people will notice.
	If other people notice, it doesn't fix anything.
	So if your girlfriend says, oh, he's rolling, he's being quiet again, now I have to sit down for an hour and try and figure out what's going on.
	You're saying, okay, you be mommy, you be daddy.
	And if she's willing to do that, your relationship won't work because now she has to be your mommy and your daddy, which means she can't respect you as an adult male.
	So even if you were to get what you want in the moment and she asks for an hour to figure out what's going on with you, your relationship is still screwed.
	Because either she doesn't want to play that game with you, in which case you feel resentful and hurt and she doesn't care about you and all that, or she does play that game with you, in which case she's reinforcing bad habits and she loses her respect for you.
	And then she either dumps you or sleeps with another guy or whatever, right?
	So trying to get people to fix our childhoods is really...
	How childhood never ends if you have a bad childhood.
	Your bad childhood ends the moment you realize it's unfixable.
	It's unsalvageable.
	I mean, you can raise the Titanic, but you cannot fix a broken childhood.
	All you can do is mourn from it and learn from it.
	You didn't get what you needed as a child, and for that I'm incredibly sorry.
	I really am. It's terrible.
	And it's no one's job to fix it.
	Not a therapist, not me, not you, because that's an impossible job.
	The moment you give someone that job, they will fail, and you will both end up resenting each other.
	And that's why I say, if it's only a week or ten days that your fiancé and you broke up, what would it be like if you went back to her and said, you know what, I was being kind of manipulative.
	I was kind of sitting in a corner.
	I was hoping that you were going to ask me all these things.
	That is not the mark of an adult male or an adult female, for that matter.
	It's my job to tell you what's going on for me.
	Right? Because the way it plays out is I'm upset.
	I expect you to make it all better.
	You don't make it all better. I get angry.
	I go gamble and blow our savings.
	You get mad, break up with me.
	And my parents win. And my childhood wins.
	And the disaster of my early life wins.
	On the other hand, what if I'm upset about something?
	I say to you, I'm really upset about something.
	Here's what I need. You listen, we talk.
	I don't gamble. We get married and have kids.
	And I'm sorry for putting you in the position of trying to chase me around, which is what my parents should have done, and Didn't.
	It's not your job to do what my parents didn't.
	And you can't. Anyway, it's impossible.
	I'm sorry. I'm really, really sorry for putting you in that position, putting you in that situation.
	It was wrong. Absolutely wrong.
	And as soon as I accept that my childhood can't be fixed, it can be only grieved and learned from, I won't need to gamble anymore because I won't be out there expecting the world to give me something for nothing which my parents should have done when I was a kid, a baby, a toddler, and didn't.
	And I'll stop letting assholes exploit my bad childhood for profit.
	Childhood's end is the moment you realize nothing can be changed about it.
	Nothing can be changed about it.
	Trying to change a bad childhood is like trying to yell at people in a horror movie to make different decisions.
	The movie's already made, man.
	The script's gone. The script's been written.
	Everyone's acted in it. They've all gone on to other projects.
	It's like screaming at those three guys in Jaws, don't go out on that boat!
	The movie was made in the 70s.
	Can't change it. It is what it is.
	Can't be fixed. Who's responsible for fixing your childhood?
	No one. Because it can't be done.
	And again, sorry for the bait and switch, but...
	Can't be fixed.
	It's like saying, who's responsible for bringing an ancient pharaoh back to life?
	Well, no one. It can't be done.
	Does that make sense? Yeah, it does.
	If you were to talk to your fiancé...
	And if you have an understanding as to why you gambled, because I bet you this pattern, the three times you say it happened in your relationship, I bet you this pattern was pretty common, that you go through some significant stressor, probably to do with your family of origin, you don't get the comfort you feel you need from your fiancé, you get mad, you slip back into gambling, there are big problems.
	I mean, the people you're really mad at are your parents probably, probably, about your childhood, and teachers or extended family relatives, maybe even friends a little, although it's kind of tough because there are kids too when you were at that other school, high school, in the other city.
	But anger is designed to protect us, and right now I think your anger is doing more to harm you than protect you, and that's because it's probably focused on the wrong thing.
	As long as we think that something can be safe, we don't generally get that mad.
	The illusion of fixing a bad childhood is one way that we avoid getting mad at the people who harmed us when we were children.
	Because, well, yeah, it's not so bad.
	We can fix this, right? We can fix this.
	We can repair this. We can make it better.
	So you avoid the real anger, but once you accept that it can't be fixed, it can't be made better.
	Then you get angry at the right people and you can then be assertive with the people in your life without expecting them to fulfill a parental role for you, if that makes sense.
	I'm still having this that I'm expecting someone to get that role.
	I'm sorry, could you just, your audio is a little rough, could you just repeat that?
	I'm I'm still expecting someone.
	It doesn't matter who.
	I'm just feeling like there was no one, so I'm expecting anyone to get that role.
	To guide me the way I was guiding God.
	Maybe I wasn't guiding, but I was engaged so much in others.
	Right. You want someone to pay you what you're owed.
	But the only money you can be paid in is monopoly money, so to speak, right?
	Because it's a kid's game. It's a kid's thing.
	You can't be paid what you were owed as a kid because you're not a kid anymore.
	I mean, if you weren't taught Japanese as a kid, you can't manipulate anybody into giving you knowledge of Japanese now, like instantaneous knowledge of Japanese.
	You'd have to just go and study and learn it.
	It's going to take years. The past is set in stone.
	It's concrete. It's a constellation.
	You can't move a constellation by pushing at the sky.
	Nobody is going to fix your childhood.
	Can't be fixed.
	Doesn't mean that you're broken.
	Because as long as you're sitting there waiting for someone to fix your childhood or trying to manipulate someone into fixing your childhood, you can't ever really grow up.
	And again, I don't mean this in any insulting way.
	At all. It's a perfectly...
	I labored under this delusion for years and years and years as well.
	So I'm not...
	I didn't sort of become 18 and go, aha!
	Nobody is going to fix my childhood because it can't be...
	This is like hard-won, bitter, achieved knowledge.
	So this is very, with all deep humility that I point this out.
	What if admitting that That was in that problem.
	My fiancé would put me in that position of showing myself as not adult, as childish, as broken in a way.
	No, you're doing that already.
	No, you're doing that already by manipulating her by being quiet when you're actually upset.
	So you're already showing her That you're acting like a child, and children don't do that if they get what they want.
	But no, if you say, well, that's going to make me look bad, it's like, well, you already look bad enough that she left you, right?
	So A, you don't have anything to lose, and B, when you take ownership for these things and you say, I did wrong, I'm sorry, here's why I did it, and here's how I'm pretty sure it's not going to happen again.
	So if this insight is valid, that you were trying to get her to mommy you out of a bad childhood, Say, okay, now I understand why, and I'm going to make an absolute, complete, and ironclad commitment.
	I'm going to repeat it in the morning, every morning in the mirror when I brush my teeth, that if I'm upset, I'm going to say, I'm upset, and I'm not going to try and get you to mommy me out of a bad childhood.
	If you take responsibility for that, you apologize.
	Here's why it happened. Here's why I'm sorry.
	Here's how it's not going to happen again.
	Well, that's as grown up and a mature a thing as anyone can possibly do.
	We all make mistakes. Can you own up to them and apologize and make restitution and make amends and say how it's not going to happen again?
	Yeah, you can do that. Of course you can.
	Now, if she's looking for something better than that, then there's nothing better than that.
	Then she's got unrealistic standards and all that, right?
	And of course, we don't have to get into her childhood, but I'm sure if you ask her that she was expected to mother somebody with a bad childhood when she was a child, and that's why she's used to doing this with you, and you guys are kind of trapped into that historical stuff, and that tends to choke the life out of relationships, or it tends to choke the joy out of relationships.
	Your parents are probably enmeshed in that same stuff as well, so...
	But no, saying to her, I was wrong.
	And, you know, being honest, saying I didn't really make the connection and I thought this was how things should be and, you know, but I've learned better or I understand better and so...
	Let's try again.
	Let's try, in a sense, for the first time, without me being manipulative, without you doing what you're doing, but with genuine honesty and connection.
	Let's move forward.
	I mean, that's a pretty good offer, I think, for someone.
	Very good. I think that honesty is there now.
	I'm just thinking, wasn't that a problem during the two months that I was going in a corner?
	Being less and less enthusiastic, just being afraid and scared of admitting that I'm not as valued, not as good male as I would like to be.
	Not as good male as I... Well, you just lacked a commitment to honesty.
	So we say I'm scared and I understand that you are for sure.
	But you lied to her because you were upset and you withheld it from her.
	You lied to her. Oh, it's a lie by omission.
	But the lies by omission are sometimes the worst of all, right?
	Somebody comes up to you and says two and two make five.
	You know that they're not telling you the truth.
	But lies by omission, by the things you're not talking about.
	That's really hard to figure out, and that can be really destructive, really toxic.
	So you lied to her for a couple of months by withholding what was going on for you emotionally, and you can't expect a relationship to survive a commitment to dishonesty, right?
	You can say, well, I was scared.
	It's like, okay, well, I understand that.
	But the moral description isn't I was scared.
	That sounds almost like an excuse.
	The moral description is I lied to her, repeatedly, consciously.
	I withheld absolutely essential information from her.
	I lied to her. I manipulated her.
	And you can say this stuff without getting mad at yourself, just saying, look, that's what I was doing.
	That's what I was. Just be honest with it.
	And I'm not going to do that anymore.
	I'm going to put all of that in the past.
	Because I'm doing all of that stuff because of the wounds of my childhood, hoping that A cut-off limb can regrow.
	No, you lose your arm at the elbow, it's not going to regrow.
	You know, you lose a fingernail, it'll regrow.
	Your arm doesn't regrow. So I was doing all of these things in the voodoo hope that it would fix my childhood.
	But all it did was ruin my adulthood.
	Which is what you'd expect.
	You can't be a good doctor if you're attempting to resurrect...
	Ancient mummies, right?
	Because you're just wasting your time and energy.
	So if you say to yourself, well, I was scared, well, then the problem is, then the next time you're scared, you feel justified in lying.
	But if you say, no, I lied, then the next time you're tempted to lie, you can say, no, I can tell the truth.
	But if you say, I did X because I was scared, then your unconscious will simply make you scared and then you feel like you can do whatever you want because you're scared, right?
	You can't give yourself that excuse.
	I mean, you can, it just means that your life will not get better.
	You don't give yourself the excuse to say, well, I was scared, therefore.
	It's like, no, no, no, I lied.
	I lied. I withheld essential information.
	I manipulated. I pouted.
	And I'm not going to do that anymore.
	You can't give yourself an emotional excuse.
	You know, I mean, there's no defense in law.
	I was stressed, and that's why I killed that guy.
	You can't...
	Stress doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want.
	It doesn't give you a free pass.
	And neither does fear or neither.
	That's why we need philosophies, to have a commitment to honesty, regardless of emotional tension.
	In fact, we need that We need that because the emotional tension is very high.
	And if emotional tension gives us an excuse for bad behavior, then we'll just crank up the emotions and do whatever we want.
	But philosophy says, well, you have to really aim at doing the right thing.
	You don't always get there right away, but you aim at that.
	That's what you guide yourself by, regardless of feelings.
	And in fact, when the feelings are telling you not to do something, that's when you probably want to do it the most.
	But if your fiancé understands that you had this revelation, if it's a revelation for you, that it works for you, and that she can rely upon you to tell the truth, then all of the stuff you guys have built together over the last couple of years, I don't see why that all has to be knocked down.
	Because you didn't understand this aspect of life, which is very tough to understand, and it's not part of our common culture at all.
	Yes, because she...
	Are you still able to be in contact with her?
	We are. We are.
	Okay, good. Yeah, so I would say my suggestion would be enough yammering, enough listening to me talk on and on.
	I would maybe sit and think about this and forbid and maybe write some stuff down.
	And I would talk to her.
	I mean, it's only been a week or 10 days or whatever.
	I mean, it seems like there could be something to repair.
	And even if there isn't, at least it can make the breakup less ugly or unpleasant or difficult.
	So I would talk to her if I were in your shoes.
	I was just, you know, from what she says, but it's the end because she cannot build up the future on someone who's so unsustainable, who's so dangerous, even for himself.
	Well, no, I understand that.
	And, of course, if she doesn't even want to talk to you, there's no possibility.
	I guess you have to respect that.
	I think it's worth having the conversation because she also needs to know why she was with you if it didn't work out, right?
	So I would definitely have a conversation with her about all of this and certainly, I mean, apologize for the things that you have, that could have done better and all of that.
	I think it's worth, I think it's worth it for that.
	Even if it's just what they call a postmortem, which is to figure out why someone died, even if you can't bring her back, but you can't.
	But that would be, I think that would be a useful approach.
	Yeah, I will.
	Will you keep me posted about how it goes?
	Yes. Sure.
	All right. Well, listen, I appreciate the call today.
	I'm sorry for the interruption, and I really look forward to hearing how it's going.
	And if she speaks English and wants to chat, I'm happy to do that as well.
	Sure. All right.
	Well, thanks, man. Take care. Have a good rest of the evening.
	Bye. Thank you.

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