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Jan. 10, 2023 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:42:51
My Boyfriend of 12 Years Won't MARRY ME! Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
The topic was, I fear my 12-year relationship might be coming to an end.
And you wrote, Hi, Steph. I'll try to keep this brief.
I've been together with my boyfriend for 12 years.
He's from another country than me, and we've been taking turns living in each other's countries.
After living in my country, he became depressed and wanted to leave.
I decided to come along. Unfortunately, neither of us found each other liking it, so we moved back.
However, due to moving, he has lost his rights to residence in my country.
Please help. I feel desperately stuck in my situation.
That's the one, right? Yes, that's correct.
All right. I mean, is there anything?
I mean, I'm sure there is. You mentioned, is there anything you wanted to add to that or, you know, obviously fill me in on details and so on?
Yeah, like you told me to stay away from names and places and such, but we have a due date.
Can we just call him Bob? Yeah, yeah, we can call him Bob.
That's fine. Everyone's name is Bob.
Everyone's name is Bob, yeah.
Yeah, hope we have no confusions there.
But yeah, so anyway, we're pushing the end date in which we need to leave in some documents.
So the problem is that he's waiting for a job.
He's got a job offer, but they have to do some background checks.
Well, if they don't go through, which is a possibility because one of his relatives...
Let's just say he doesn't have the cleanest record.
So we're kind of sitting here worried that since he will be working in military-related, well, profession, that that's going to be a problem, right?
So we're sitting here and, like, you know, there might be a possibility that he's not going to get it.
And if he doesn't get it, then the due date to leave in the documents has reached its deadline, right?
So then he has to leave.
The problem is that I don't want to leave again.
Because I feel like I have moved so many times in my life and I'm just looking for stability because I would like to start a family.
But the thing is that I also sort of feel like maybe I'm blinded because, I mean, of course he's given up a lot of things for me.
He's tried to live in my country.
He ended up not liking it very much at that point.
And then I was like, oh, okay, well, you've done this for me.
I'll do this for you. And then we both ended up not liking it.
So I don't know if I'm, you know, being a pushover here or I don't exactly know what's going on.
That's why I need your advice.
Wow. Yeah, that's quite a tell.
If you could tell me a little bit about...
Okay.
So, I mean, as you know, my general theory is if you're able to live with this kind of stuff as an adult, you kind of got conditioned to it as a child, which doesn't mean it's right or wrong.
It's just, you know, what you're kind of used to, right?
So in your childhood, was there any long distance stuff?
Was there frequent moves?
Were there significant challenges to your parents' relationship?
My guess is, I could be wrong, of course, right?
But my guess is that something kind of conditioned you to be able to handle this kind of situation for so long, if that makes sense?
Okay.
So...
There was no moving.
We were quite stable. The only thing that I can think of is that my parents' relationship was not that good.
There was fighting daily.
The fights were very petty, but me as a six-year-old, I took them very seriously.
Because I got an intense emotional reaction to my parents fighting because they were constantly fighting.
Well, sorry, but as a kid, sorry to interrupt, but as a kid, you wouldn't process the content because it would be adult and you wouldn't be able to understand it.
Neither would I, right? You wouldn't process the emotional content.
You would only process the form of it.
In other words, the intensity or the commitment or the sense of disagreement.
Because, you know, as a kid, you're scanning for Yes.
but like evolutionarily speaking, that was pretty bad, like prior to the welfare state and all of that, right?
So were they quite intense in their pettiness?
Was that what you were picking up on, do you think?
Well, first of all, it was loud.
They were never physical, but sometimes they threw objects, just not at each other, but just, you know, in rage sort of threw stuff at the floor.
And it was...
My dad threatened with leaving my mom quite a lot.
Like, sort of like, oh, if you don't start respecting me, then I'm going to leave.
And I'm going to do this and that.
And, like, you're going to regret it.
And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I was just like...
And you were pressing for that.
Like, they did that in front of you as a kid?
Good Lord, I'm so sorry.
That's just wretched. Yeah, it's horrible, isn't it?
I would never put anyone through this.
I wouldn't wish this on my worst anime.
Well, okay, but the theory is that you are kind of putting yourself through it with your current relationship.
So I hear what you're saying, but it's a working theory that we have.
But anyway, let's go on with your childhood stuff.
So this wretched to fight in front of kids is bad, certainly with intensity.
I mean, I don't think that all parental conflicts should be hidden.
sense of a relationship to a kid.
But you should be able to, you know, have a disagreement in a sort of fair and positive way.
And then the kid can see it resolved.
And then they know.
And then when they have conflicts with their own partners in the future, they don't automatically assume it's, you know, some disastrous thing and so on.
But yeah, there's throwing stuff, there's yelling, there's threatening to leave this.
I mean, it's really volatile.
Yeah.
And you know, I was I sort of remember very vividly one time I was laying in my bed and I was just listening to it.
I was shaking like I was shaking out to my fingertips, sort of like I had a feeling that I was going to die, you know, like it was so overwhelming, the anxiety.
And now I'm quite self-aware compared to what I was.
So I'm looking back at it and being like, oh, I know this caused a lot of things in me.
Right.
But yeah.
it was that. And then I also feel like my father is emotionally distant.
He doesn't really have any...
He doesn't have an ability to look at himself and be like, oh, if I say this, maybe this is going to affect that person this way.
And things like that.
Okay, but sorry, because obviously I'm not going to question your perceptions of your father, because I don't know him from Adam, but...
What you were talking about just now was that he said he wanted to leave in order to get your mother to conform to his expectations, to his preferences, right?
Like, if you don't respect me, I'm going to leave and all that.
So he definitely was able to process emotions to the point where he would say something to someone in the hopes of getting the desired response, however immature it might have been.
So he does have some idea, I think, based on what you said about how his words would impact someone else, because he had a very specific aim in threatening your mom with this.
Okay, yeah, when you put it that way, that actually makes sense.
But, yeah, so he was never really, you know, he was more of a, I'm sorry to say this, but he was more of a hindrance.
And, well, he didn't bring, see, he didn't contribute all bad things to me.
Like, he instills quite a lot of good things in me, but that thing in particular has messed me up.
Quite a bit. The thing in particular, is that the fighting as a whole or the threat in particular for him to leave?
The threat, because it's caused a separation anxiety within me.
And it's also caused me to be hyper-aware and care too much about what people think about me.
So, you know, because if I don't appease them...
Then I'm afraid there's going to be consequences, but the consequences never get through, which instills sort of like this underlying low vibe, low frequency kind of anxiety in me.
And I'm aware of that, but I don't know how to work with it, if that makes sense.
Oh yeah, no, no, I understand that for sure.
So did your, I sort of hate to get crass at material, but did your dad at least provide money or resources to the family that way?
Yes. Okay, so he was a good earner, is that right?
Yeah. Nope.
That was an interesting... Yeah.
That was a very complex affirmation right there.
I mean, we were never...
I always had my material sort of needs met without...
No, I'm just trying to think about some time where I... Didn't have those needs met, but I can't think of anything, so the answer would be yes.
So, I mean, it sounds like a solid middle class kind of...
You weren't flying around on your private jets, but you didn't want for any of the basics.
Yes, that's correct.
And did your mother work as well?
Yeah, she does.
She is...
Well...
Low income, sort of, but...
Yeah.
I mean, together they made it Well, together they establish quite a standard middle class sort of way of living.
When you say sort of low income, do you mean that your mother is...
I mean, again, don't tell me where you are in the world, but, you know, one of the basic questions about this kind of mom working stuff is, does the job cover the costs of childcare and give you significant excess?
I mean, who took care of you?
Was she working when you were young?
Yeah, yeah, she was.
So who took care of you? My grandma.
Because, see, we're not native to this country either.
So my grandma took care of me.
I remember I hated going to daycare.
So I was very thankful for her being there and sort of like taking some of the weight off my parents.
Because my dad would often go on business trips abroad.
Okay. So do you know why your mom didn't take care of you?
Well, because she had to work, but she did take some effort to...
Sorry, hang on, hang on.
Okay, had to work.
Just break that down for me a little bit, right?
I mean, if she hadn't worked, your father would have been more successful because there would have been fewer complications with regards to childcare, and he would have had her at home running the household, doing his taxes, whatever it would be, which would free him more up to work.
But even if that wasn't the case, right, so after taxes, after the expenses of just having a job, maybe needing a second car, if she wasn't making a lot, a lot of money, likelihood is that it just didn't make much economic sense.
Or even if it did, let's say that she provided 30% of the income, any middle class family can live on 30% less, at least for half a decade while the kids are very little.
So it's just – I wouldn't – she didn't have to work.
If you were on a desert island, she wouldn't have to work.
She could still take care of the kids.
Just bring them along. Or she could have explored, sorry, she could have explored working from home or, you know, anything like something with odd hours that she could do on a computer, any sort of number of things.
So she didn't, unless I'm missing it, like, I mean, she didn't have to work.
You know, women who are kidnapped and sold into slavery, they have to work, right?
But I don't quite see how your mom would have to have to work, especially if your dad is making a decent income.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Yeah. That's probably contributed to some of the distance between me and my parents, definitely.
Wait, the fact that she worked or the fact that you still think she had to work?
Well, the fact that I think that she has to work is obviously me making up an excuse for the fact that she worked even though she didn't need to.
Right. Right. And it wasn't working for them anyway, right?
I mean, at least maybe she was like, I don't know, one of these people who was like, well, if I'm not out there obeying a boss in some fluorescent office or whatever she was doing, I'm just miserable, right?
But your parents weren't happy anyway.
So it wasn't like her working was necessary for their happiness because they weren't, like, I don't know, you could construct some sort of theoretical scenario where your mom was like...
Oh, I just love working so much.
It makes me so happy. Yeah, it was sort of like that.
Honestly, I think she used work a little bit as an escape from my dad.
Because, I mean, they didn't...
Obviously, they had to...
They're just like one of those couples that really have...
They should have gone to couple therapy to work out some of the communication that they were having.
Right. Yeah, I'm with you.
Another thing that puts a distance between me and my parents is the fact that I was bullied when I was a kid, and they did nothing.
They just ignored the problem.
Can you tell me a bit more about that?
Was this in the government schools?
Yes, of course it was.
Yes, of course. Because, you know, if you were homeschooled, you wouldn't have been socialized.
Okay, sorry. That's just a bitter thing against what people say about homeschooling.
But anyway, so yeah, what happened in school?
Well, okay, so first of all, so my parents aren't from here, right?
And this country is known for having sort of like a special sort of way about them for the people.
So they weren't quite schooled in how to act, which then translated into me being way too extroverted.
And I suppose that some people found it weird or awkward, too quirky, whatever.
So I think I was targeted for that.
But now that's also sort of like caused a hyper-awareness in me that I'm very sort of like policing myself about what I say.
How I'm standing, like how I'm like holding my hands and things like that.
Because I was always sort of like picked on for saying weird things.
Obviously, when I was like a six year old, you do say weird things, but you know, I was just sort of like a bit odd.
And well, yeah, I mean, you know, when you're a parent and you see that your kids or whatever, they're not bringing home their friends.
For after school or like they don't want to do anything after school except sit by the computer.
That should be a big red flag, you know?
Well, unless you're happy that your kids are bringing friends home because it's less work for you.
Yeah, exactly. Or whatever.
So I feel like that.
You are a very, very nice young lady.
I just wanted to sort of point that out.
Very nice, very thoughtful, very considerate, and I think a little wrong in this.
And again, it was your bullying, so tell me.
But look, I was the new kid in a bunch of different schools.
Because I went to a whole bunch of different schools.
I was not bullied in school.
Now, I don't think that you were bullied because...
You were a little too extroverted or anything like that.
Because that's not how kids process things.
There's one reason alone, I think, that you were bullied.
Now, because what you're doing is you're giving your parents another excuse.
Because the question is, well, why was I bullied?
And you say, well, you know, but my parents, they didn't quite know how to fit into this new culture and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so you're upset with your parents for them not dealing with your bullying.
But I don't think that you're upset with them, or at least it doesn't seem to communicate with them.
Because it's kind of inevitable if you go to, like, if I move to Japan, I'm going to put my foot wrong a bunch of times, right?
Because I just don't know the culture that well.
And, you know, I'm going to be inadvertently, not offensive exactly, but, you know, just obviously not a native and so on, right?
But I think there's a different reason why you were bullied.
And I say this having talked to, you know, I don't know, probably 500 people over the course of these shows who were bullied as kids.
So there's some evidence, some accumulated evidence, but this is not exactly proof.
And again, as always, it's your experience that matters, not my theories.
But I think there's one reason and one reason alone that you were bullied, which is that you were already afraid.
And you were already afraid because of your parents' fighting and your father's threats to leave the family.
Because bullies don't pick on confident kids.
They don't pick on kids with a strong bond with their parents.
They're always looking for kids who are already afraid because then most of their work is done for them.
They're looking for the kids with the weak bonds.
They're looking for the kids without protective parents.
So because you were already afraid, you were picked on.
I don't think it had much to do with culture at all because confident kids...
Who have strong parental bonds and strong parental protections.
Bullies don't pick on them.
Why? Because if bullies pick on those kids, then those kids' parents are going to call their parents and their parents are going to feel embarrassingly humiliated and take it out on the bullies, right?
Because already we have bullying at home, which is why the bullies end up bullying other people.
So the big vulnerability is a kid who's protected by strong parents will end up with the bully being bullied immediately.
And that's what they can't stand, right?
So they're looking for weak kids whose parents won't protect them, who were already afraid.
And so your father threatens to leave your parents throwing things and yelling and fighting and all of that.
And the fact that the bullies would know based upon your body language, based upon your demeanor, based upon your level of confidence and your posture, like all of the signals, right?
They'd already know, oh, this kid doesn't have any parental protection.
And this kid's already nervous and afraid.
And so, you know, we can do whatever we want and we're never going to get in trouble for it.
And they were right. I mean, they evaluated it correctly, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
I would say so. But how, may I ask, because I've always said I've been following you for a couple of years now, but If you didn't have it that well at home with your mom and all, how come you weren't bullied?
Or, like, how come you weren't insecure, rather?
That is a very fair and fine question.
So, no, so I was...
Well, I mean, there were some things that compensated for that.
I was very good at sports.
I was a good-looking kid, and I know you are as well.
I sort of see the picture, so I'm sure you were as a kid as well.
And... I was quick-witted, so people were a little nervous of my acidic tongue, so to speak, or my debating skills or whatever.
But I also avoided those kinds of situations as a whole.
I also had a very good peer bond.
I had good horizontal friends.
And it wasn't like they would beat up some bully or whatever, but when you have even any kind of social bond, I mean, you really have to be isolated to be bullied.
If the kid even has a social bond, With other kids, even if those other kids are kind of not the coolest kids or anything like that, right?
But there is always this concern that if you bully a kid who's got a whole bunch of friends, that those friends might push back or those friends might tell their parents or something like that.
So I think there was a couple of combinations that kept it.
But it sounds like you were really isolated in this situation.
Yes, that's correct.
Yeah, because I was...
Well, the bullying started literally on my first day of the new school.
And that wouldn't be...
I mean, that would be too soon for them to sort of figure out your level of cultural comfort and all of that, but they would get the whole body posture and language and is this kid protected or not?
But anyway, sorry, if you could tell me a little bit more about how the bullying manifested.
No, it was just...
It was boys bullying, but I remember that I was more pissed off at the girls for ignoring it somehow.
Because, I mean, someone...
I mean, I don't know. I don't know.
See, the weird thing is that I had quite a lot of friends outside of school.
But I was just sort of put in this situation in school.
And while the nature of the bullying was like...
Well, it could be like screaming over me when I'm talking or throw gum in my hair.
Sort of like pushing me once or twice that happened.
Calling me fat.
Because I was a little bit overweight because I was...
Well, I was, you know...
My parents didn't say, like, no, you can't go to McDonald's three times a week or whatever.
Also, like, what can I say?
Yeah, I was followed home a couple of times.
That was terrifying. So, yeah, that's what I can remember.
And that's designed so that you feel nervous in your own home, that the bullying can extend beyond school, like there's no sanctuary.
We know where you live, that kind of stuff, right?
Yeah, it was awful.
But I do remember that I sort of lashed out one day.
Okay, maybe you're going to think bad of me now, but I don't really care.
I just want to tell you this. I did lash out the last day of school because I felt like, okay, this is the last day of school.
I don't have to go to the school anymore.
You know, fuck it. I'm just going to push him down the hill.
Sorry, why would I think bad at you for pushing back against people who are sort of threatening you and pushing at you?
Well, because it's a violent act, I suppose.
But then again, lots of violent acts have been committed against me.
But just so, like, I'm not a complete pushover.
I do have... I admire you more for doing that.
I would be more troubled if you hadn't done that, to be honest with you.
No, you should because that's a risky thing to do, right?
I mean, you don't know. They know where you live.
You don't know what kind of blowback there could be and so on.
That's an act of courage.
I mean, if they've been pushing you and shoving you around and threatening you and then you push some kid, I'm like, you know, law of the jungle at that point, I mean, to me, that's perfectly fine.
See, now that I think about it, just as I blurted that out, I was sort of like, I think I was more afraid of the consequences that the teachers would give me if I had done something back.
Right. Right, that's interesting.
Yeah, because teachers are terrible with bullies because most teachers are bullies.
I mean, they bully your parents out of their paycheck through taxes.
They bully kids.
And parents, of course, sorry, teachers, as you know, if a kid comes to them with a bully problem, then the teachers just do a rapid evaluation of the situation.
and they say, well, I can either take on an entire family of bullies, right, because the parents will definitely be bullies, and then they can complain to my regulatory body.
They can go to the principal.
They can make up lies, and I'm just going to spend years in this kind of regulatory hell.
Or here's another option.
What I can do is I can just tell the victim to try and avoid the bullies and leave it and just, you know, or punish the – That's exactly what they told me. Right, right.
So, I mean, unfortunately, it's a very rational response, not particularly moral, but, of course, the whole environment is pretty immoral in general.
So, yeah, I mean, you're entirely right that the teachers have no interest in taking on bullies because bullies lead to bullying parents, which leads to huge professional problems for them.
Whereas just lecturing the victim to try and avoid the bullying, they already know that you don't have parents that are going to call them up and say, hey, what the hell are you doing failing to protect my kid?
I'm going to march right down there.
I'm going to drag you in front of your boss.
I'm like, they already know that you have parents who aren't going to lift a finger to help you because you're already being bullied.
And so they're just like, well, you don't pose any threat to me and your family doesn't pose any threat to me.
But boy, those that bullying family, they could make my life really difficult.
So I'm just going to lecture you rather than take on them.
Yeah. Yeah. Oh no, you shouldn't be.
I'm not saying this.
The explanations are not to make you not mad.
They're just to make sure that your anger is pointed at the proper object.
Because if the anger is not pointed at the proper object, it tends to go on and on and on, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I mean, I had a teacher that took me into a room, sat me down and looked at me in the eye and said, you're never going to be anything.
You're never going to become anything.
Because you won't listen to my long, ranty monologues with Hey, as a guy who does long ranty monologues, I take that very, very personally.
No, I'm kidding. Of all the things to criticize, long ranty monologues.
It's like a wound in my heart.
Well, that's projection, right?
Voluntarily. I don't have to sit there.
I don't have to sit there.
I'm not forced to spend like 12 hours a day sitting and listening to you.
I can do it out of my own free will.
That's true. And I will side with you when you're bullied.
So I guess there's that.
Oh, thanks. I always knew I could trust you.
Well, yeah, I mean, I had a teacher who was so boring.
I had an 8.30 in the morning summer class.
I was so desperate to get out of school that I took an extra couple of classes in the summer so I could get out a semester early.
And I had a teacher. He was like so boring.
He's doing American history.
He was so boring. Occasionally, I would just kind of half pass out in the back of a class.
Anyway, he didn't say anything.
But when I went up to give a presentation, he demanded, he screamed at everyone, put your heads on the desk and pretend you're asleep.
And then he turned to me like, how do you like it?
You know, it's just... Petty and vengeful and pitiful.
And he had this like really bad, it's just like, he was like one of the first really bad toupees I noticed on a human being.
And I was like, when I started to lose my hair, I'm like, well, whatever I do, I'm not doing a toupee because apparently that just turns you to complete asshole.
Because my cause of effect was not very specific back then.
But yeah, petty, petty weird teachers is like the norm.
Yeah, I had a teacher that was a conspiracy theorist.
She was always saying, like, oh, China's going to take over the world.
Be afraid. Be afraid!
Learn Mandarin, by the way.
And it was like, God, I can't sit here and listen to your bullshit all day long.
Yeah, I mean, however accurate it might be in the long run.
You know, kind of a weird thing to be putting on kids, for sure, right?
For sure. I already have the climate change on me.
I don't need another thing.
God help us, right? Leave me alone.
No, but... Yeah, so how do I get rid of this?
I'm constantly being self-aware, like, oh, what am I saying?
What are people thinking about me, even though I know I shouldn't?
So how the hell do I get rid of this?
Please help. Right, we're really jumping from early childhood bullying to the final answer of the universe.
Did you do long jump?
Was the sport that you did was long jump or something like that?
Ball vaulting? I was terrible at it.
No, so we'll get there for sure.
We'll get there for sure. But, you know, there's always one parent who gets away, right?
There's always one parent, oh, my dad, well, he's really problematic, and, you know, he's yelling at my mom, he threatened to leave, and he threw things, and my mom was bad too, but you've really focused on your dad, right?
Yeah. But let me ask you this, and it's a weird question, so, you know, just go with me for a second, and we'll discard it, but did your dad...
Have any justice or any point whatsoever when he said to your mom, stop disrespecting me?
What do you mean? When she was like, yeah, okay?
Because his big thing was, I'm going to leave if you, if I understand this right and correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but his big thing was, if you don't respect me, if you keep disrespecting me, if you keep putting me down, I'm going to leave.
Okay. Yeah, correct.
Okay, did he have, and I'm not saying the way he communicated it or anything like that, but did he have any point to what he was saying?
Was she putting him down?
Was she disrespecting him?
Because, you know, he was the major provider in the household.
He was doing these international business trips, which start off fun and end up just kind of exhausting because, you know, time change and all of that.
Did he have any point about feeling like she was not respecting him in ways that were important to him?
Okay, so the thing is that I always kind of feel like my dad...
He's often like, you know, there's no weight behind his words, right?
So I sort of feel like he's made...
People might not take him seriously quite often, and that's I think sort of a feeling that he feels about himself.
I do feel that my mom...
Doesn't feel like...
Okay, she doesn't feel like he does so much around the house and she's sort of like a person that puts weight on practical things.
She wouldn't really appreciate if someone, you know, was like doing accounting until three in the morning.
She would just be like, oh, that's easy.
You're just sitting down, right?
Okay. All right.
So she contributed.
What percentage of the income after taxes and expenses do you think?
What percentage of the household income did she contribute?
I guess just roughly.
I mean, less than half.
Okay. So she made, what, 40%?
Yeah. Yeah, maybe.
If she made 80% of what your dad made, then she would contribute, you know, what, 40% of the revenue.
So what was your dad's...
I mean, I know it's tough to tell, right?
But you said that she had a relatively low paid occupation.
So what was her...
I would say she did 40 and he did 6.
No, she did 35 and he did maybe, you know, yeah.
Sorry, that's one half of the equation, but I'm going to need both.
35 and what? No, I'm sorry.
I'm tired. No, she did 30, he did 70, I would say.
Okay, so she's contributing less than 25% of the income after taxes and stuff, right?
Sorry, she's less than half of his income, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so she's contributing relatively little.
And did your grandmother take care of you your whole childhood, or how did that work?
Up until she got dementia when I was eight.
And then what happened? Then I was just sort of existing at home.
Oh, really? You were on your own from eight?
I mean, I did go to school, obviously, but yeah.
No, no, no, I get that, but I mean at home.
You were home alone from eight?
No. I mean...
I mean, don't be alarmed by my shock.
I'm just... I mean, that's pretty young.
That's pretty young to be home alone.
No, no, that's fine. I just thought at the computer.
No, no, I get that.
But from the age of eight onwards, you come home from school and you would be alone.
Yeah. Do you have any siblings?
No. Right.
So you were an only child...
At home alone at the age of eight.
Yep. In most places, your parents would be criminals.
Oh. It's illegal.
No, no, seriously. It's illegal to have a child at eight home alone with no supervision, no adult, no one checking in.
It's criminal behavior.
Okay, cool. Okay.
No, no. It's important to know.
And there's a reason for that.
I'm not a big fan of government laws and all of that.
But eight is not a safe age to be at home alone.
Especially if you're home for a while, you've got to get something to eat.
You might have to turn on the stove.
There could be a fire. You could get burned.
Something could fall on you.
You might trip and fall down the stairs.
So you can't be alone at that age.
Which is probably why you just went to the computer.
Yeah, I mean, yeah.
That sounds possible.
See, to be honest, my childhood's kind of a blur because I've been trained to forget a lot of it because it wasn't very happy.
But yeah. Right.
Trained by your parents, you mean?
Sorry? Trained by your parents to forget it?
Probably, yeah. Well, you said trained, and I'm just wondering, trained implies a trainer, so who trained you?
Wait, did I say that?
I'm sorry, I meant...
No, no, you said trained to forget it.
Yeah, I think I just sort of like...
No, absolutely not.
You did not train yourself to forget it.
No, that's not a thing.
That's like training yourself because your childhood has within it your seeds to future happiness, either because you have positive examples which you want to emulate as an adult or because you have negative examples that you want to avoid as an adult.
It would be like a kid putting their hand in a fire and then saying, well, I trained myself to want to put my hand into a fire.
That's not what the body and the emotions do.
They try to warn you against things that will be dangerous or make you unhappy in the long run.
So you wouldn't train yourself.
I mean, it would be convenient for your parents if you forgot the unhappiness of your childhood, but it wouldn't be convenient for you because it would mean that you'd be likely to reproduce it.
You're right, because if I've ever come up to my parents and been like, you know what, I wasn't particularly happy about this thing in my childhood, they would just be like, oh, but we did our best.
How can you be so ungrateful?
Right, just as they did with each other when they had complaints with each other.
They never got upset. They just said, hey, we did our best.
You know, there's nothing to be upset about.
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so let's get back to your dad.
He was providing, and I don't know if my math is correct, but let's just say he was providing the significant majority of the family income.
And it sounds like he was working harder than your mother, who had a well-paid hobby rather than a job, in my humble opinion.
So, as the guy who paid most of the bills...
Was he worthy, and worked very hard to do so, was he worthy of more respect than your mother was providing, at least in that sense?
Or did she respect him for that?
Did she thank him for that? No.
It's kind of a funny thing. Like a woman spends half an hour preparing a meal and the family has to kneel down and give hosannas towards her, right?
But the guy goes and works 60 hours a week and it's like, well, that's just physics, man.
You don't thank gravity for holding you on the planet.
It's just a fact of life.
Anyway, so it's just kind of a funny thing, right?
Yeah, you're right. And again, I'm not condoning his approach or the way they fought or anything like that.
But did he have some seed of a legitimate complaint that she wasn't giving him the respect that he might be somewhat due?
Yeah, because, I mean, obviously she didn't ever thank him for his contributions.
She's not a very encouraging person.
I mean, yeah.
Yeah. No, I mean, to be honest, I've never heard her say like, oh, you've done such a great job.
Like, that's just not her.
It's just sort of like, hey, I did this thing today.
And she's just like, that's good, I guess.
Like, that sort of thing.
Okay, so she's kind of withholding that way, right?
It's like enthusiasm for her is like the last atom of toothpaste in a tube, right?
Yeah. Okay, so, because I want to get to the sort of subtle physics of your parents' arguments, right?
So, your father felt disrespected.
Did she insult him or put him down as well, or was it just a lack of respect that he was trying to deal with?
You know, I don't particularly remember her insulting him, but it was definitely like, oh, you're not doing enough.
Why am I doing this?
You can't do that. You can't help me do the dishes, blah, blah, blah.
He's like, but...
For God's sake, I've already done like 60 hours of work every week.
What do you want from me? Sort of like that sort of thing.
Well, so she's calling him.
Is she a feminist? Is that?
No, she. No, no, no.
She's just spoiled. Huh.
Kind of, I think. Okay.
That's fine. I was just wondering if there was some ideological bent to it as well.
No, no, no.
She's not. No, no.
I think my parents are not interested in any sort of thing like that.
Right. Okay. Okay. All right.
So, basically, did she call him lazy or unsupportive?
I mean, what's the implication there?
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Might I also add something?
Yes, please, of course. It's your life.
Anything you want. Yeah, yeah.
No, I remember I came home with my grades.
I had gotten straight A's in everything except math, in which I got a B. And she was like, but why did you get a B in math?
Right, yeah, because she was such a perfect wife, and obviously the very highest standards of being a wife and a mother were her key things.
She was just really into perfectionism and making, because it was really important, not that she be a good mother or a good wife or that you have a happy home life, it was really important that you get an A rather than a B, because, you know, she's just all about the high standards.
Yeah, yeah, but, you know, as you said, as a kid I couldn't process that, so I was just like, Fuck, I really failed.
I really failed here.
Well, she was reproducing in you, hang on, she was reproducing in you what your father felt.
Nothing's ever good enough. Oh, that's interesting.
Maybe you're just like my mother.
She's never satisfied.
Right. Yeah. And obviously she's dissatisfied with herself and she's taking it out of the world, right?
And she's got this easy out.
So the way that we feel superior is either we improve ourselves or we put other people down.
It's either an absolute standard or a relative one.
The relative one is a lot easier to put other people down than to improve ourselves.
Yeah, she's quite naggy as well.
And overprotective.
See, my parents never let me overcome any hinders on my own.
They always sort of like...
It's funny, because I'm saying, like, oh, they never helped me through the bullying.
No! Sorry to interrupt you, but that's nonsense!
I know, but... Hannah, did you overcome bullying on your own?
No, but listen, it was weird because, for example, if I...
Oh, no, sorry.
I just get this general feeling that if there was anything, sort of like a math problem or something like that, that I was like, "Help me.
I don't know how to get this." They would just give me the answer, you know?
Right. Thanks, thanks.
That was the answer to my question.
Go away. No, but you had to overcome isolation.
You had to overcome cultural differences.
There may have been language barriers.
You had to deal with bullying all on your own.
Yes. So, I mean, they definitely...
But if the pattern is, they're just lazy-ass parents.
And boy, there's a lot of lazy-ass parents out there.
So maybe it was just like, oh, here's the answer.
Go away. Or I don't want to hear about your problems at school because I'm, you know, a lazy-ass parent or whatever, right?
Yeah, I remember that I was having some issues with...
Or I wasn't really...
It was just that my teachers were like, oh, she's from, like, another culture.
She might... Have like a problem understanding the native language.
Let's put her in extra classes.
And then I remember that my parents helped me with the reading part of the classes a little bit.
And then it was just sort of like...
So they take you to a new country with a new culture and a new language.
And it's just like, good luck, kid.
Yeah. Right.
So your mom is concerned that your dad is not helping with the dishes.
And she's doing nothing really to help you acclimatize to an entirely new culture and language.
I'm trying not to hate them, and I'm failing.
I'm just telling you that right now.
Like, I'm trying to be mature.
Well, they had their own histories of this and that and the other.
I'm trying not to hate them, but I'm having trouble with it.
So I'm just being, you know, upfront with this.
So let's... Sorry, if there's more that you want to add here, I'm obviously happy to hear.
Yeah. No, I understand where your frustration comes from.
It's just a hypocrisy.
It's just a hypocrisy.
You're supposed to help me with the dishes.
Hey, you're supposed to help your kid when you move them to a new country.
You're not helping me clean the toilets.
You're supposed to help your kids when they're being bullied.
You're supposed to not leave them alone, probably illegally, at the age of eight.
You're supposed to notice when I don't have any friends.
Oh no, but the big issue is he's not helping me with the dishes.
It's like, oh my god.
It's just so mind-blowing.
This triple standards, right?
I've fought so many laps around this carousel, I can't even, I've lost count.
Right. Okay, so if there's more, I want to back up to your dad thing here, but if there's more you want to add on this aspect, obviously I'm happy to hear.
No, no, please go ahead.
Okay, so to put it in a nutshell, you've listened for a while, I guess we can be fairly blunt.
Do you think there's any part of you that blames your mother for not just giving your dad some goddamn respect, which it sounds like he earned to some degree, but you blame your mother for your father's threat to leave?
Like, just give the man some respect!
What are you doing? Why are you threatening the entire family structure because the man's begging for some respect and you just won't give it to him?
He's begging for some approval.
He's begging for some positive feedback.
Right? Just give him some positive feedback so that he won't leave.
Why are you threatening the entire family by withholding this?
To be honest, I'm going to...
What I'm going to say is not going to reflect good on me, but I don't care.
I'm here for a reason. Well, you were wrong about that last time, so let's hold our self-judgment off.
No, no, no, no. Listen, my feelings are entirely, or have been up until this point where we've talked through this on my dad.
Because I just don't think that you should...
I absolutely agree.
And if you remember, I did say, I'm not trying to defend myself, but I did say, I don't agree with how he expressed it or the way it came out or anything like that.
I don't, right? I don't.
He did a terrible job of that, but I'm just trying to look because what's causing the problems in your current relationship is the stuff that you're not aware of most likely, right?
Yeah, yeah. So, because you've talked a lot about your dad, and listen, it was outrageous what he did.
I mean, it's just absolutely destructive to do that in front of a kid and all of that.
But, I'm trying to figure out...
Like, it really fucking hurt my feelings. Yeah, awful.
And, you know, ruined your, you know, like, I mean, ruined a lot of your childhood this way.
But, but, was there a part of you that just said, Mom, for the love of all that's holy, just give him what he wants?
Yes, but not as often as...
It probably should. Well, I'm just trying to figure out the hidden stuff.
Like, let's do another...
I mean, let's take another example.
It probably doesn't apply to your parents' marriage, but just to sort of put it in a more clear context.
So, you know, when you're in a marriage, you're in a monogamous sexual relationship, right?
Now, if, let's say, the mother, your mom, had just said, I'm not having sex with you, right?
Well, I mean, there's a problem then, right?
Because... Male sex drive is a little higher, as I'm sure you're kind of aware.
And it's like that's going to lead to an affair, right?
And then, you know, when you're a kid, if your father has an affair, you're really mad at your dad, right?
Because he's the obvious problem.
He's the in-your-face problem.
He's the manifestation of the undercurrents, right?
He had an affair. Now, if, let's say...
And you should never talk about these things with kids, right?
But let's say that when you're an adult, both of your parents say...
Except he did. He did have an affair?
No, no, no. But I remember him being so mad once that he screamed at my mom, but we never sleep together anyway, so what the fuck do I care?
Right. Okay. So that's a problem, right?
Yeah. That's a huge...
I mean, I guess, well, you only have one...
You don't have any siblings, right? So I guess we know how that played out, right?
So let's say that your dad had had an affair, and then as an adult, you had found out that your mom had not slept with him for two years, or whatever it was.
And there's a surprising number of marriages that are asexual, right?
I mean, it's, like, not a tiny number.
So... Now, what you do is, when you were a kid, you'd be like, oh, I can't believe you...
And, of course, your mom probably wouldn't tell you the truth, you know?
Well, he had an affair because I wouldn't sleep with him, right?
And he's a man, right? So...
If as an adult you had found out that your mother hadn't slept with your father and therefore that, in a sense, pushed him towards the affair thing, because most places you can't get divorced as a man without losing years of your life, half your stuff, custody of your kids, and facing particularly significant risk of legal repercussions if you have a particularly vengeful wife on your hands, which your mom might have been.
So So he's trapped in the marriage and she's...
Because you see, they...
Actually, I found out last year that they have been lying to me about being married, that they are divorced, but they have been living together, acting as if they were married my entire life.
Sorry, just levering my jaw back up off the floor here.
What now? I mean, what the fuck now?
Should I repeat that?
I would just, you know, I'm absorbing this in my brain like a snake with an ostrich egg.
But what I'd like is some sense of the timing of all of this.
When did they get divorced and how long did they live together?
I don't know.
I mean, they've been together for my entire like since as far back as I can remember.
But I sort of like, because You can look up here if someone's...
Marital status?
I'm sorry. I suck at that word.
And I looked it up and I saw that they weren't married so I confronted my mom being like, hey mom, what the actual fuck?
Sorry, when was this? Last year.
And she was sort of like, no.
So you know, she didn't want to...
She just wished I could stop Bothering her.
She didn't give me any answers.
No, but you said they were divorced, so they're not just common law or just living together.
They got married, but then got divorced, but then continued to live together?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Apparently.
I mean, that's the only logical conclusion I can get to.
Because it said there, when I looked it up, married, and then divorced, and then married again.
And it was like both of my parents.
So I don't know if they were like...
You know, they couldn't have been with other people because I have never heard of my mom having another ex-husband.
I haven't heard of my dad having an ex-wife.
So it must have logically been that they were together, divorced, because I do know that they got into a really big fight before I was born.
Because sometimes there's been, like, allusions to that.
And then they must have gotten together again.
And she's sort of like...
Yeah, yeah, I know.
And she's sort of like...
My parents sort of, like, confirm this by their way of avoiding to talk about it when I've confronted them.
So, you know, I just know that this is what must have happened logically.
So I'm just kind of like, okay, how the hell did this happen?
Why did you get back together?
And sort of like, why are you, if you're so unhappy with each other, why the hell did you get back together?
Well, because of you, probably, right?
I don't even think I was conceived.
Well, maybe they had a, you know, bang the gong for old time's sake and had an accidental.
I don't know. Who knows? I mean, they won't tell about it and you can't probably get the information from anyone else.
That's a pretty big-ass secret to be keeping, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know.
Because look, look, your parents are in this ambiguous relationship that's really tough to settle down and actually commit.
And guess what? You're in this ambiguous relationship that's really tough to settle down and commit.
Yeah. Surprise!
Yeah, that's what I mean when I say there's something that conditioned you to this kind of putter along and not lock it down kind of thing.
Yeah, but we haven't had this big divorce fight, whatever, gone back together thing.
Like, we've never done that sort of thing.
Well, listen, I'm not saying that your relationship is as bad as your parents' and so on.
But in some ways, there's more of a danger in your relationship than there is in your parents' relationship because you and I want to settle down and have kids.
And are you in your 30s?
Is that right? Approaching.
Approaching 30s. Okay. So you want to settle down and have kids and you're not in a particularly easy position to do that and you've, you know, burned up 12 years of high fertility or whatever, right?
And so if it doesn't work out and you do want kids, then this has been a real messy relationship because it will take you a long time to get over it and you've got to try and find a new guy and, you know, it's really tougher when you get into your 30s to find, you know, good guys and all that.
So... It's a bit more...
I mean, yes, there are occasionally some golden apples at the bottom, but you kind of got to dig, right?
So it's not impossible.
I mean, I settled down in my 30s, but it's not impossible, but it's tricky, for sure.
It's definitely tricky. I don't want to have representative stories from my friends, so...
Who are dating in their late 20s, right?
Yeah, it's so freaking bad.
Yeah, yeah. No, listen, I mean, no one loves going on a first date more than a guy and three of his baby mamas who need something to eat.
But anyway, I'm sure nothing is that bad.
But okay, so your mother wouldn't have sex with your father.
And I'm sorry to be talking about these things so bluntly.
I know it's a bit unsettling.
It's a bit yucky, yeah.
Yeah, but that's very much...
Now, of course, a woman should never have sex with anyone when she doesn't want to, but if you are in a position of monopoly sexual access, which is a monogamous relationship, and I guess you thought they were married, or if she'd really be upset that she'd have an affair, then she's in a position of this monogamy thing, then what you have to do is figure out what the barriers are to intimacy and work to undo them, right?
Yeah. Because if your father had said, I'm going to keep all my money for myself, I'm not paying any of our common bills, I'm going to keep all of my money for myself, and good luck, right?
What would your mom have said?
Oh, I'm sorry, please don't do that.
Well, it probably would have been a bit more aggressive than that, but yes, she probably wouldn't have said please.
She's not a very aggressive person, but yeah.
She sounds kind of aggressive.
Wasn't she yelling and throwing stuff?
No, not so much.
No, not her. Oh, that was your dad.
Okay. All right. Okay, good.
I'm glad to sort of clarify that, right?
But she does sound kind of aggressive in that you said she was a nag, right?
She is nag, but I mean, she's more of like, I don't know.
Besides the nagging, she's kind of avoidant.
Besides the nagging, she's kind of avoidant.
So that's like saying besides the giant sucking chest wound, the rest of my body is kind of healthy.
No, no, I get it, but she has, like, her territory or whatever, which is the kitchen, in which you're not allowed to touch or misplace anything.
Wait, sorry. He's not helping enough in the kitchen, but how dare he touch anything in the kitchen?
Well, how do you think it is for me cooking food at her house?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can imagine.
I can just imagine. So it sounds like your mom is kind of trained to put people in impossible situations.
I mean, this is just a real theme here, right?
It's an impossible situation. Help me in the kitchen, but you're doing everything wrong.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pay for most of the bills, but I won't ever thank you for it.
Oh, there was another one that I was thinking of with regards to your mom.
Oh, yes. Have been in a monogamous sexual relationship with me, but I won't have sex with you.
No, no. This is impossible situations, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what are you emailing me about?
What are we talking about?
Other than you feeling like you're in an impossible situation, right?
And this is why, ladies and gentlemen, I do what I do.
Oh, God. I knew this wouldn't be a waste of my time.
Good. Well, I'm glad it's not.
I'm glad it's not. All we're doing is, you know, we're just outlining the problem here.
We'll get to solutions, I guarantee it, but...
But yeah, if you're raised in, I mean, impossible situations, like men get drunk and punch, guys, and women get tense and put other people in impossible situations.
I mean, this is just a very broad, obviously, broad generalization, but when you feel like you're in an impossible situation, and you can't win, then you're often caught into a sort of female neurosis pattern.
I'm not talking about you, I'm sort of talking about your mom here, right?
And so being aware of these impossible situations is really, really important.
They're all over the place. They happen all the time in politics and all that, right?
And that's exactly why most of my friends growing up have been guys.
Right. And why I was a tomboy, because it's just like, I can't deal with all this subtle shit, you know.
Yeah, like if you're a guy, how do you know if you have a problem with another guy?
Well, he's yelling at you or he's pushing you or something, right?
But if you're a girl, how do you know you have a problem with another girl?
Oh, you get psoriasis because of reputational damage you're not aware of consciously.
You know, it's something like that, right?
Trust me, I still don't know.
Right, right, right, right.
You don't know, except that, you know, people look at you weird and you don't know why, right?
Yeah. There's a whisper campaign or something like that, right?
You're describing my work life now.
I'm just sort of like, I think this, because this, and then it's just like, why the fuck isn't she talking to me anymore?
Oh, listen, I mean...
I love my daughter, and she's a little bit of a tomboy.
But when it comes to her female friendships, and I'm like, well, just be direct.
And she's like, oh, blasphemer.
You can't do that.
That's how guys work.
And I was like, okay, tell me more, right?
Because I need to sort of understand these things, right?
Because my wife's pretty direct, so that's one of the reasons that it works so well.
Yeah, and then they slapped the label artist on you.
Oh, that's right. That's right.
Because you're not willing to do this shadow puppet manipulation behind the scenes, but you actually use face-to-face human direct contact.
It's like, this is violence.
Right, right. Because my parents actually sent me to therapy and they just slapped that on me.
Like, oh, you don't have ADD, you're actually autistic and you have a bunch of other things.
The therapist slapped that or your parents?
I don't know. Fuck, they could have, like, come up with it together, you know, conspired, just like, you're weird.
No, I don't know. I'm just talking, I'm just flabbering now, but...
No, listen, I have no idea, really.
I've known a few autistic people in my life, and, I mean, obviously, I'm no diagnostician.
I can't do any labels or non-labels, but it doesn't strike me.
You don't strike me that way, even in the slightest, so I just don't know what that's worth, so...
Yeah, I think they might have been wrong, but yeah.
It's a lot easier, and this is another thing that therapists face too, like teachers.
If a child is presented as problematic, fix this kid, right?
Well, a competent therapist, in my humble amateur opinion, a competent therapist would say, okay, let's look at the parenting first.
Because if somebody says, my painting is crap, the first thing you do is look at the painter, right?
And not say, well, the problem is that the painting is autistic and unable to communicate the vision of the painter.
But you say, talking to my parents is too hard.
So we'll just say she's autistic.
Well, it could be, right, so if you have volatile and aggressive parents, then if you say to the parents, okay, let's talk to you first, because, you know, you're the parents and you kind of set the tone at the stage and you've had the Feedback and the criticism of your kid and all that.
So let's talk to you first.
I mean, the parents, of course, what are they going to say?
It's like, no, no, no, no. She's the problem.
Fix her. What are you talking about?
Right? I mean, it'd be like bringing your car in and they say, well, no, we really want to...
Check your jacket for rips.
And it's like, what? No, no, I brought the car in to get fixed.
What are you talking about my jacket for?
It's the same thing with a lot of parents and a lot of therapists.
Unfortunately, you just, you know, take the path of least resistance and just say, yeah, okay, I'll label the kid and I'll get my money and, you know, we'll part ways, right?
Yeah, yeah. All right.
So still a little bit more to do on the parents, if that's okay.
So they're still together, right?
And they won't talk about the past much, if I understand this correctly?
Correct. Right.
And your relationship with them, how's that?
I don't...
I have animosity towards my dad.
He annoys me, to be honest.
That's a behavior I probably got from my mom now that we're thinking about it.
I'm probably emulating her behavior.
With her, I mean, I don't put a lot of energy into talking to her because I just feel like she doesn't really follow logic when she talks.
She's just sort of like, you know, if I'm talking about something, she's like, oh, you meant this.
I'm like, no, I didn't mean that. I meant the other thing.
Obviously, I just said that. It's sort of, I don't know.
It's not very intellectual.
And how did they discipline you when you were a kid?
If they did, I mean, I don't know.
Okay.
I mean, I didn't...
See, I was...
I remember this one time, they said, oh, be home by nine.
And I wasn't, because I was just playing with my friends.
And then I was wearing a helmet.
And basically, when I showed up home, my dad just sort of like slapped the helmet.
I was like, where have you been?
Sort of like that. But other than that, there was no physical thing except that thing.
Right, just one time. And it was on the helmet.
Did they call you names?
Did they raise their voice? Or was it just mildly toxic disapproval and disappointment?
How did that play? Okay, to be perfectly honest, they were just too busy fighting with each other to ever discipline me, really.
So they didn't even care enough to give you feedback, even in a negative sense?
I mean, most of the time, though, or else it would just be like, why did you do that?
You know you can't do that. You know it's dangerous, blah, blah, blah, which is like, yeah.
At least it wasn't hitting.
Yes, that's true. That's true.
What did your partner, Bob, we called him Bob, right?
And I hate to say boyfriend because it's like a 12-year relationship, right?
Yeah. But your partner, Bob, what did Bob think of your parents?
Or what does he think of your parents?
Unintelligent. Sort of like, yeah, but he shares my opinion about my parents.
He's sort of like... Do they actually not comprehend what they're saying and what they're doing?
No, no, listen. First of all, you're smart, right?
So likelihood is your parents. And international business travel, I mean, that's above average intelligence to have that kind of value add where people are willing to fly you around for the things that you can provide.
That's above average for sure.
Maybe unwise, obviously, but not dumb.
Yeah, thanks. Thanks.
That's the word. And why no plan?
When I've told him about the way I was raised and the complications I had, he's just been like, but did they really have no plan?
For example, if your weak spot was math, why didn't they hire a teacher like my parents did?
Why did they not do things, you know?
Because apparently his parents, whenever there was a problem, actually did something, laid out a plan.
Right. Except he's not had much of a plan for your relationship, as far as I can tell, other than let's move around and hope it works out.
No, he has. It's me who's refused children because I've been stupid.
Well, but then he doesn't have much of a plan for that either, right?
Because if he wants kids and he's been 12 years with a woman who refuses kids, that's not much of a plan either, right?
You know, charming and attractive and wonderful though you are, if he wants kids, he's going to have to make sort of a decision, right?
You mean that, yeah, maybe after three years of me being like, nah, he could have left?
Well, sorry, did you talk about kids relatively early in the relationship?
I guess you met when you were teenagers, right?
I mean, yeah, we did when we were teenagers.
No, that's math. You've got 12 years in your late 20s.
It had to be teenagers, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 16, 16.
I mean, you're not that bad at math, right?
Don't make me hire a tutor in the middle of this call.
I'm just kidding. Sorry, go ahead. No, that's fine.
No, the short answer, I don't actually remember when we started talking about kids, but it was definitely a couple of years into the relationship.
Okay, so for like close to a decade, he's wanted kids and you haven't, right?
Yeah. So, I mean, if he was on the call, and I'm happy to talk to him if he wants as well, but if he was on the call, I'd say to him, well, I wouldn't necessarily assume that only other people don't have a plan.
Because if, you know, if you keep going along in a relationship for a decade when you disagree about having kids, that's not wise.
You're right. No, he hasn't had much of a plan.
You may have more in common than you think.
And his parents should be all over him about this as well, right?
because I assume his parents like – No, but they should be, right?
I mean if his parents want grandkids and most parents do want grandkids, then they should be all over both of you.
They should be sitting you both down and saying, okay, what's happening?
Why aren't you married?
Why aren't you having kids?
Do you not want them?
Like what's going on?
I mean they have wisdom.
They have age.
They have some authority and some credibility I hope.
So they should be all over that stuff.
But it sounds like his parents are pretty freaking hands-off too.
You're right.
Yeah. Maybe he's just giving me the wrong impression that, oh, they were more hands-on when I was a kid, or blah, blah, blah, but now you're thinking about doing it or not.
Well, you can only go with the empirical evidence of what you see rather than what people say, and they're very much hands-off.
But I did hire a math tutor, in which I do admire that, because that's definitely something you should do.
I don't know that you've got a huge weakness in math if it's your only non-A course and you've got a B. I don't know that that's tutor-worthy.
What are you, from Singapore? My God!
Okay, okay, okay. Okay, so let's get to Bob.
So did you meet and what was it that drew you to him in the first place?
That he was very smart and he was very put together and he was very funny.
He's witty as well.
Oh, yeah. No, women need funny like men need sex.
I hate to sort of say it, but women do.
Because, you know, you all can get a little wrapped up in your own thoughts.
And humor and the endorphins kind of undoes some of the neurosis whirlpool a little bit, right?
I mean, so that could be kind of...
I don't think men really quite understand how much women need a guy with a good sense of humor.
No, you're definitely right about that.
Yeah. Okay.
So you met, is he smart?
And kind of, is he tall, dark, and handsome?
And how was the physical attraction when you first met?
Okay, so we had a distance relationship for three years.
Actually, we were friends online for a year before we met.
Wait, but you were friends or you were like flirty friends or dating friends?
No, we were friends friends for maybe nine months.
Then the last three months we were flirty flirty.
And then we were just sort of like, hey, I think I like you enough to want to meet you.
And then we met and it was like sparkles just flew.
And how, in what, again, you don't have to give me any details and please don't, but in what general circumstances did you meet online?
Oh, we met playing World of Warcraft together.
And playing what? World of Warcraft.
World of Warcraft. You know, online games?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I got it.
I'm not quite that old.
I've never played it, but I've heard it's a lot of fun.
Okay, so you met playing World of Warcraft, and he knew you were a girl.
Did he see your picture early on?
I mean, because I've got to tell you, as a formerly teenage boy myself, the idea that you were just friends for nine months, I would have some skepticism towards that.
He may be a bit of a slow starter, but I can't imagine that it was just friendship for him.
I mean, maybe it's sort of hard to tell, but I felt no disrespectful vibes or any creepy anything.
No, he was very like...
Hang on. Just because he's attracted to you, how is that disrespectful and creepy?
No, because he could have been perceived so by me sitting on the other side of a screen, you know.
Not if he's got a good sense of humor and he's direct and all that, right?
True. True. Maybe he just fooled me good.
That might be an interesting conversation.
At what point?
Because if he knows you're an attractive young woman and you're having fun doing the same stuff together and he's a teenage boy, it's not like, I wonder if in nine months I might find myself oddly attracted to her.
That's probably not how I would roll out.
But anyway, that's just my particular thought.
So then you met up, and you were in different countries, and you met up.
And did your parents know about this relationship?
You were still living with your parents when you were flirting with him or playing with him?
Yes. It was actually my mom that was like, hey, you've been talking to this guy for a year.
What's the point? Why don't you just meet up?
Right. Surprise!
Otherwise, he would have been too introverted to take that step.
Hmm. It was my mom being like, why don't you ask him if he wants to meet up?
Obviously, he's going to come here and see us.
Well, there's a reason why you wouldn't ask him to meet up.
I mean, it would be dangerous.
Well, no, you can mitigate that risk fairly well, right?
I mean, just meet in a public place and blah, blah, blah, right?
No, the reason why is because he's in another country!
And it's complicated. And what if, though, if things do, if the sparks do fly as they did, right, then you end up in this kind of challenge, which is you're playing castanets back and forth with different countries.
Mm-hmm. I'm not saying, obviously, you did what you did.
I'm just saying that your mother's saying, well, why wouldn't you meet up?
It's like, well, that's a pretty good reason why you wouldn't meet up.
Oh, you mean that she puts people in impossible situations?
Impossible situations! She was just sort of like, fuck!
Cool. It's just an odd thing to encourage people.
Because if things don't work out, there's no point.
If there is danger, then it's bad.
and if it really does work out, what are you supposed to do?
And after 12 years, you are in what feels like, I'm not saying it is, but what feels like an impossible situation, right?
Okay.
Yeah. Okay, I'm...
Because it seems odd to me that the one time your mother does give you advice, it's questionable.
Because she doesn't give you much feedback.
You can stay home alone at the age of eight.
I'm not going to help you with your bullies.
I don't care that you don't have any friends.
I'm not going to solve any one problem in your life.
Oh, but this one I'm going to help you with.
But where the fuck did she do this?
I'm sorry, but what? Where did she do this?
Now I feel... Coming to this realization feels...
I'm sitting here feeling very weird.
Well, listen, this is...
You love your Bob, right?
And so this is just the origin story.
I mean, the fact that this box did fly and you're together, this doesn't make the whole relationship bad or unreal or anything like that.
It's just that if you have an undertow that your mother doesn't want you to succeed, you can't fix things with Bob.
Hmm... If your mother is sabotaging unconsciously or whatever, right?
Then you can't fix things with Bob.
Now, you're a very intelligent young woman and articulate, and you can solve the problems with Bob unless your mom's in the way, in which case you can't.
And if your mom kind of sets you up to fail, then you can't succeed without knowing that and confronting that within yourself, in my humble opinion.
Hmm. Hmm.
So this is the one time where she really did bungee in and get you going on a path that has turned into an off-and-on 12-year impossible situation, right?
Now, again, I get that you love Bob.
He sounds like a great guy.
So this is not plus or minus with regards to the relationship.
I'm trying to figure out what needs to be cleared out of the way for you to solve this problem.
Does your mother want you to succeed and have a happy, loving marriage?
I don't know.
Yes, you do. Absolutely, you do.
You do. You do know, because you've known her for almost 30 years.
And the way that you know that...
Why would someone do this?
I mean, she's my mom.
I expect more from her.
Why? I'm sorry, why would you...
I mean, based on the empirical evidence that you've told me, she threw you to the wolves, you got pushed and bullied and followed home and frightened...
Right? She's willing to put down your dad and she's willing to tell her she's not having sex with him.
Like, this is all messed up, right?
Do you think that there's a non-messed up part of your mom that's somehow pure and isolated from the rest of her?
No, but I'm sorry.
I have like 15 seconds to process this.
Yeah, yeah. No, no. I'm just – I just – I don't want – for me, I don't want this to be like my mom engineered me into this impossible situation.
Therefore, the relationship is bad.
I don't want that to be what I'm saying, right?
No, I get it. Right?
That's because, you know, again, Bob sounds like a great guy.
You've got 12 years invested and if we can make it – if we can clear the rubble and make it work, it would be thrilling, right?
I'm sure we can, right?
But does your mother want you to succeed as a person?
Well, let's look at the evidence.
Did she want you to succeed socially in school?
No, or she didn't care?
No, no, no. If you move your kid to a new country, a new language, a new culture, a new environment, and you don't work hard...
To make the home inviting for her friends to...
Hey, let's have a party. I'm getting face painting and clowns or whatever nonsense you would do, right?
No, seriously. If you move your kid to a new environment, you gotta...
Hey, we've rented a Nerf gun war.
Bring your kids over. You've gotta work to make the environment so that your kid has friends, right?
I know. That's what I did for my boyfriend.
Right, right. Did she want you to succeed socially as a kid?
No, no, no.
Because... Yeah, it would make her feel bad, probably.
Well, I don't know. I don't care about her feelings.
We're just trying to empirically judge her actions.
Because trying to figure out what your mom felt 20 years ago is probably a bit of a tricky task, right?
So let's just work with the facts, right?
Did she want you to succeed academically by teaching you how to think rather than giving you the answers?
No. No. Okay.
Okay. Did she want you to succeed by restricting your calorie intake so that you didn't get overweight?
No. Okay.
Does your mother want you to succeed?
No. No!
One plus one is two.
No. Well, again, I'm happy to hear evidence of the contrary, and I literally would be very happy.
I can't really hear it.
Right? Hmm.
Hmm. No.
So if your mother doesn't want you to succeed, then when she intervenes, most likely, my guess would be most likely, when she intervenes, she's sabotaging.
Now, whether it's conscious or not, it doesn't really matter because we're just looking...
I try not to plumb the mysteries of other people's motivations.
I'm an empiricist, right?
Just look at the facts, right? Because we can't judge...
We can't mind-read, but we can judge effects, right?
Yeah. Now, has your mother, over the last 12 years, given you substantially positive and helpful advice with regards to your relationship with Bob?
No. Has she kind of allowed it to just trundle along in a somewhat aimless fashion?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
Right. I mean, she didn't even tell me, like, oh, use a condom or whatever.
It was just like...
Great!
I'm sorry, she didn't tell you what?
No, like, you know...
She didn't do sex ed with me or anything.
Like, oh, maybe you should use a condom.
Or like, maybe you should do this if someone says bad things about you.
Like, there's been absolutely no guidance around that whatsoever.
And I do remember you not recently.
Not too... In the not-so-distant past, saying that, oh, it's kind of a boomer thing.
Oh, yeah, the hands-off stuff.
Yeah, it's brutal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Isn't it? Oh, no, we'll let Hollywood and the internet raise our kids.
What could go wrong, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know. I know. Yeah.
They just completely abandon parenting, for the most part.
Yeah, yeah. It's crazy.
I'm not alone in that.
I've heard from my friends. You're not alone in being alone.
No, no, no. No, no, no, I get it.
But like, yeah, yeah, this comes, so many stories from my close friend's child who's come back to me where, you know, without going too off topic, just being like, where the fuck have my parents been all my life?
I don't know them. Right.
Now, okay, so here's my question, right?
Here's the comparison, right?
Now, you could say, well, my mother just doesn't like to interfere.
She doesn't like to give people too much feedback.
She, you know, she's just not a big person for correcting others, right?
Except, if we were to ask your father, does his wife like to correct other people, or does she express preferences that go against what she believes to be the good or right or true thing, like helping with the dishes and so on?
Does she give people feedback in order to correct their behavior?
What would he say? Oh, yeah.
Not only feedback, but...
She's an egg, right?
Yes. Right, that's what she would say.
I think you've used that term as well.
So again, rightly or wrongly there.
So it's not like your mom just doesn't have anything to do with giving people feedback, right?
It's just that she doesn't give you feedback on how, say, to not get pregnant.
Yep. Right, so this is part of the brutality and hypocrisy that was just driving me kind of nuts earlier.
Well, and probably still is, but you know what I mean, right?
This crazy, crazy thing where your mother gives you feedback and your father feedback on everything useless and naggy and pointless and petty and destructive.
She'll give you feedback on getting a B. Man, I would have sacrificed half a kidney to get a B sometimes in math.
So she gives you all that feedback, right?
But she won't give you feedback on how to have a successful relationship.
She won't give you feedback on sexual education.
She won't give you feedback on, well, you know, if he's a great guy...
Then you're going to be stuck in different countries plus your teenagers.
It's one thing if you're in different countries and you're in your 30s or 40s and you've got professional designations and maybe you can get business visas or start businesses or invest money.
But when you're kids, it's brutal.
Because how are you supposed to change countries when you're 20?
It's tough enough when you get older.
Yeah, it was very hard.
I mean, we've been battling with governments and their shit for decades, so much so that we've turned into hardcore anarchists.
Just, oh god, there's still, you know, all these rules and regulations It's brutal.
They make you wait so long.
I'm sitting here.
I've been waiting six months for them to even start processing our claim.
And then at the end of the day, they're just like, oh, you need to send in this paper.
You need to get this sort of insurance.
And it's like, how the fuck do I get this insurance?
You can't get it. There's so many different things.
There's so many requirements.
Who the fuck is going to put up with this?
Oh, yeah. Hey, if you don't like your country, you should just change it.
It's like, you know, that underwear is kind of spray-painted on, right?
You've got to take it off the spatula.
Yeah, it's pretty tough.
People don't know what they're talking about when they say that.
No, they don't. They don't.
No, they don't. It's a little annoying, but, you know, I mean, it's a lot easier for people to just give you useless advice than it is to follow it themselves, right?
Yeah, isn't it? Or, you know, is that done in Kruger?
Everything's easy until you have to do it yourself.
Yeah, yeah. Totally.
No, it's been hell, let me tell you.
It's been a nightmare, to be honest.
And in many ways, your life's kind of been on hold for this time period, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Like, I want to have...
I'm sorry that I'm just such a...
Oh, no, I want to have kids.
Yeah, right. Of course you want to have kids now because you're approaching your 30s.
But, like... Listen, there's nothing wrong with inhabiting a cliché.
They exist for a reason, right?
I mean, it's good that you want to have kids, in my opinion.
I mean, if you listen to this show, I assume you'd be a fantastic mom and all of that.
And so I think that would be great.
And if your boyfriend listens to the show, I'm sure he'd be a great dad.
So more power to you. I think that's wonderful.
So does your father want your relationship to succeed?
Does he want you to be happily married?
Yes. And in love and a good mom with a good dad and all of that, right?
At least he shows that more.
He's like, how is it going with your relationship?
Are you all good? Is there anything I can do to help?
And that's nice.
That's very nice. And I'm not going to pretend that it's not.
But in terms of...
That's very reactive.
And, you know, parents are supposed to be proactive, right?
You know, the proactive is wear a helmet, the reactive is I'll drive you to hospital because you cut your head.
Yeah. So does he do anything that's proactive?
Like, does he sit down with you and say, look, I've been an international businessman for 30 years, so I know what it is to have a plan and to make a plan.
So, you know, do you have a drop-dead date?
Do you have a time where you're not willing to invest more?
Did he talk to you earlier about wanting to have kids or not have kids?
Because listen, if you're a parent and your kid doesn't want to have kids, I personally would take that as a very deep insult.
Yeah, I get why.
No, no, I get it. Because, I mean, my daughter wants to have kids young because we have an absolute blast.
And it's so much fun.
Yeah, I've listened to you.
You have like the best chemistry.
I'm so jealous of you both.
Well, I think that's great, and you can do it, right?
I mean, and I was saying to her, actually, we went for a pretty long drive yesterday, and I was just saying to her that I love this phase of parenting because it's mostly done.
Like, she's 14 now, right?
So anything I got really wrong, you know, it's really impossible to fix now.
She'll tell you. Yeah, yeah.
But it's like, it's so much fun because, you know, she's great socially.
She works hard. She's...
She wants her first job.
She's a good saver.
She's very funny and engaging and people like her and all of that.
And so I said, I'm like coasting now.
It was never really that much hard work, but the parenting stuff is mostly in the rear view.
So that's my question.
Will it hurt your parents?
If you have a great relationship.
Now, here's the thing. Here's the trick.
I don't mean even hurt them emotionally.
Will it hurt their interests?
Right? So were your parents older when you were born or relatively young?
Yeah, they were old.
And, you know, the thing is that my parents sort of believed that, or my parents do believe that my existence is partially to take care of them.
Well, that's okay. So that's what I'm talking about with regards to their interests.
Okay, so let's play this out, right?
Because to me, this is the fundamental barrier to your relationship.
I could be wrong. Obviously, I probably am.
But this is sort of my working hypothesis, which we can take through.
Yeah, I get it. Let's play this game, but I get it.
Okay, so no, I just always want to say that because the last thing I ever want to do is tell people about their lives.
We're on this sort of exploration thing, right?
Okay, so if you end up I'm radically committing to and working things out.
And we have to bypass the legal barriers because that's not a philosophical issue.
It's a political issue. And you have a great relationship and you have big breakthroughs figuring out what's the barrier and why you haven't been able to commit and so on, right?
And listen, this lack of commitment is the issue.
And I hate to sort of nag at you about this, but when you were both in another country, you said you weren't that happy, right?
Right. That's a lack of commitment.
Because if you're with each other, that should be enough no matter where you are, outside of prison or gulag or something like that, right?
But the idea that you would be together, but it would be the country that would make you unhappy is, to me, a lack of full commitment to the relationship.
It's an old saying, I'm happy as long as we're together.
It doesn't matter where we are as long as we're together.
That, to me, is real commitment.
That's real love. Yeah, yeah.
And so the fact that you were in a – and this was a country you could have stayed in.
Is that right?
If I was wearing like 10 blankets every day, then yeah, maybe.
Okay, so it's cold. I get that.
I'm sorry. But you were together, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that wasn't enough.
Now, if you are together – But the country matters more than being together?
That's a problem in the relationship.
Yes, but see, that problem has already happened because the first time anyone moves him here.
So I sort of feel betrayed a little bit.
Like, I get where you're coming from, but I feel like he was not super committed to me in the first place, so why should I be?
Well, sure, but you know why he wasn't super committed to you, right?
The kid's thing?
Well, partly the kid's thing, and partly, how does he view his in-laws?
Negatively. I think so, right?
And also, how often do your issues with your parents or your childhood issues interfere or cloud your connection to him?
I don't know.
I haven't thought about that.
But I do think it's quite a bit.
And I just say that based upon the lack of commitment and you have said that it does circle around in your brain these issues quite a bit, right?
And if there isn't...
So he may sense an undertow that...
Your loyalty to your parents is excessive.
When you have a real bond, you don't need loyalty.
You don't need to please people.
You don't need their approval.
You just have the love, right?
The connection, right? It's not a performance.
You don't have to get carrots and sticks, rewards, and you don't get plus or minus points or whatever, right?
When you have a real bond, right?
It can't be broken. And so you're not...
Well, if I get an A in math, my mom will be more positive towards me.
Like, that's not how...
Real bonds don't work that way.
I understand. But why is he like, oh, I don't like the country.
Let's both leave. And then we leave because I want to give him a chance because he gave me a chance.
Right. And then he's like, no, I don't like it again.
Let's move back. Right.
So to me, that is like messing with me, you know?
Well, okay. Why didn't you get married?
At what point? Any point over the last 12 years minus a couple of years at the beginning?
Because, well, he did propose to me about two years into the relationship, but then we never followed through with an actual ceremony.
Okay, that's a big story there, right?
So he proposed when you were late teens, early 20s or 20s or something like that.
He proposed and you said yes, right?
Yeah. And then what?
Yeah. And then nothing, because he was out of the country working.
He was doing a job outside of his country.
He was like, oh, so we're going to have this relationship for a couple of years.
Let's do that when we don't have to anymore.
I'm sorry. I'm probably missing something.
He's a traveler as well. No, no, no. I get that.
I mean, that's not too surprising, I guess.
Right? You said it was your dad. But...
I'm sort of a little confused here because if he wanted to marry you and you wanted to marry him, then if you were his wife, couldn't you go where he was?
Isn't that the big way to deal with immigration issues, his marriage?
The funny thing is that they actually don't care about your commercial status here in regards to that.
No, but he was going somewhere else, right?
Yeah, for a short business sort of like internship.
You said a couple of years.
Yeah, but the thing is that he was from one country, was doing an internship at another, and then had to move back and finish university, right?
Right. So it would have been...
And I was still in school.
So... Okay, I get that.
But couldn't you have gotten married and been together, even if one of you had to do long-distance school or you had to do self-study or whatever it was, right?
I mean, if you were married, surely it's easier to be together in various political locations, various legal situations.
Yeah. Except here, they don't care about that one.
Okay, okay. So forget about the one where they don't care about it.
Yeah. If you had gotten married...
No, I get it. It's a commitment thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. If you had said to each other, whatever it takes for us to be together, I love you so much, we're getting married, and certainly getting married is obviously a very significant commitment.
It's the most significant commitment, and also it makes it much easier to be together with regards to immigration, right?
Yeah, yeah. So why didn't you do that?
And it's not a criticism. It's a genuine, like, why on earth did you do that?
It's not a criticism. It's just genuine curiosity.
Like, why wouldn't you do that? Or why didn't you do that at the time?
Or more importantly, why didn't your parents or his parents say?
Well, of course you should get married.
You love each other. You've been together for a couple of years.
You've proposed. You've accepted.
Let's make it happen. Okay, this is not...
This is going to sound like an excuse, but...
At that time, he applied for a master's in my country.
He got it, so he was just like, oh, this is enough.
I can get to stay here now.
So it was like, oh, we don't have to do the ceremony.
But yeah, I do agree with you.
We should have done it, and I can't give you a reason as to why.
So he said, because I can be here for my education, I'm not going to marry you.
No, no, that's not what he said.
That's kind of what he said.
Okay. No, no, no, no, no.
It's not what he said. No, no, no.
We were just sort of like, okay, we can be together.
But then we were both sort of like, okay, we don't...
Like, we were just like, oh, we're together.
We don't have to, like, put it on paper in that sort of way.
I don't know. I don't know...
No, no. This is the sequence.
Again, correct me where I'm wrong, but the sequence is, I'm going to marry you.
I'd love to marry you back.
Oh, I can be in your country without being married, so we don't need to get married.
Yeah, but if we never had a conversation like, oh, now we don't need to get married, it just sort of didn't happen.
Okay, so why didn't it happen?
Didn't you want to be married to him?
him or you said he proposed and you said yes or was that mostly for legal or immigration reasons?
Well you know I Comfort?
I don't know.
I don't know why we never follow through with this.
Yes, you do. You absolutely know why.
Of course you do. I mean, nobody else could, right?
Lack of commitment. Yeah, yeah.
Lack of commitment.
Yeah. Okay, so what is the lack of commitment there?
What is the lack of commitment?
I mean, you knew for sure.
It feels wrong to say that.
No, no. Right or wrong?
We're just looking for facts here, right?
I mean, it's like getting on the bathroom scale, right?
Is it good? Is it bad? Just need a number, right?
So... When he was doing his master's in your country, and you had already both wanted to get married, and he proposed you'd accept it, you knew for a fact that the master's was...
Is it two years? Was it a one-year or two-year master's?
One year. Okay, so he's got one year, right?
Now, you know for a fact that after that year, he loses his legal status, right?
You also know that the longer you're married for, and it sounds like obviously the marriage would be legitimate, but from the viewpoint of the authorities, the longer you're married for, the more legitimate the marriage is, the more likely you are to get approved for spousal visas, right? Yeah.
So you have that year.
To me, it would be even more urgent to get married because it's more credible in the eyes of the authorities and you only have a year anyway.
You're right. Except he didn't get a job.
But you didn't know that when he was doing his master's.
No, but he communicated that to me, like, oh, I don't like this master's, I'm going to get a job.
Bam, he got a job. Okay, but when he came to do his master's, the question is why you didn't get married, because you had every conceivable emotional, moral, legal reason to do it.
This is like ten years ago, right?
Nine years ago, something like that, right?
Yeah, yeah. So why didn't you get married?
Because he'd already proposed. And did your parents say, get married, right?
Did his parents say, you know, make an honest woman out of her, you know, so to speak, right?
Did they say, well, of course you've got to get married because you're from different countries and you want to live together and getting married is the best way to do that.
Yeah. Did they say any of that?
Nope. Okay.
Not a squeak about that.
So why didn't you say?
Did you feel like he should say it?
Did you feel like he should push it?
Did you feel like he should want you enough to just make it happen?
Yes. Okay.
Then you felt humiliated when he didn't.
Yep. And that's why you got mad at me when I said, there's a lack of commitment here, right?
I'm sorry. No, no, don't apologize.
Honestly, I'd be mad too, right?
I mean, that makes perfect sense to me.
I'm not at all upset or offended.
It's totally fine, right? So you must have felt when he's like, oh, I'm here for my masters.
Oh, good. Then we don't need to get married.
Oh, I got a job. So we don't need to get married, right?
That's humiliating, isn't it?
Yeah. And then you feel like, well, I'm not going to beg the guy.
If he doesn't, like if he wants to, and this is a female thing, right?
If he wants to, then he will.
If he doesn't want to, I'm sure as hell, I'm not going to push him, right?
Yeah, yeah. So, and see, this kind of connects back to where I am at today.
Where in the past I would have been like, oh God, I'm going to fix him all his papers.
I'm going to call these people.
I'm going to ask some of my friends who study law.
Is there anything we can do?
Blah, blah, blah. And now I'm just sort of like, well, if he wants to be here, he's going to fix it for himself.
Because he knows how to read, learn the language, fine.
Well, and if he'd really wanted to, he would have just got married to you 10 years ago, right?
Yeah. Yeah. But it's still giving me, like, I wake up every day feeling anxiety, like, shit, is he going to get to stay?
Like, what's going to happen in the next few weeks?
And I would assume that you feel helpless.
Yeah, yeah. I know you're not helpless because you could do all of this for him, but that probably feels bad to do all that for him.
I can, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I wouldn't, I just wouldn't do that.
I mean, he can do it himself.
He's done it himself before.
So I'm just sort of like...
So what is your, sorry to interrupt, what is your belief as to why he hasn't proposed again and married you?
It could be any time over the last 10 years, really, or more recently.
Because this is a big question in your life.
What is your answer in your mind or in your heart as to why this hasn't happened?
I blame myself.
So...
Like, am I not good enough?
You know, like, what am I lacking here?
I think I've just made things too easy for him and I haven't been like, hey, I want this and these are my, this is like what I want and If you can't give this or don't want to give it to me, like, sorry, I have to move on.
Sort of like, I'm not assertive enough.
Well, and I'm sure you know why that is.
Because your parents probably had you confuse aggression with assertion.
Because you don't want to give an ultimatum, because an ultimatum was one of the most painful things from your father that you experienced as a child, to the point where you're shaking in bed, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't be assertive because to be assertive is to be abusive, right?
Yes. And that's the real toxicity that comes out of that kind of conflict from your parents, right?
It cripples you because you're like, well, if I say what I really want, I'm just like my mother or I'm just like my father and it's really bad.
That's really rough, right?
I also have like...
Okay, I'm going to be honest.
My self-esteem sucks.
I want to work on it, but I don't know how.
This whole thing around loving myself and being like, I have to know what I want.
I have to be assertive.
Blah, blah, blah. I have a huge blur around that.
I've never been taught anything like that.
I don't have a role model regarding that.
I'm just sort of like, I have no...
No clue. How to think and what to do.
My concern is primarily with regards to Bob, to your boyfriend.
I'm sure Bob will listen to this, so I would say, Bob, Bob, Bob, my friend.
To promise to marry a woman and not to marry her for 10 years is very destructive to her.
And my question to you, Bob, would be, How on earth is it that you're comfortable doing something that's very destructive to the woman you claim to love?
To promise a woman you will marry her and to have her accept it is a glorious moment in her life, and then to not lift a finger to make it happen for 10 years is very destructive to her happiness and self-esteem.
Listen, I mean, some of the lack of self-esteem would come from the childhood and your parents and so on, but some of it is kind of active in the present with Bob.
Can he love you And promise to marry you but not do it for 10 years?
That's the question.
Sorry. No, go ahead.
No apologies for strong feelings.
What are you feeling?
Sad and angry. Yeah, it's not good.
So that is a concern, I think.
What should I do when I get home?
Well, I mean, I think a really frank conversation about things.
Look, you have this belief that Bob's upbringing was more functional than yours, right?
No, I don't.
Because it was violent.
Oh, violent. In some ways it was.
In some ways it was, but in other ways worse than mine.
Okay. Okay. Right.
So it seems to me like both your childhoods are casting a pretty long shadow over your 20s.
Right? And it's kind of paralyzing you moving forward.
Yeah. And I think just that conversation.
Do you want to marry Bob?
Or to put it another way, If he got down on his knees and he said, I'm so sorry and I should have done this years ago and let's get married as quickly as possible, however we can, what would you say?
Yes. So you do want to marry him if he asks, right?
Yeah. Which is you and every other woman on the known planet, right?
There's a reason why boys do it, right?
Because women want to feel treasured to that degree.
So you do want to marry Barton.
If he wants to marry you.
Yeah, of course.
Or else he would be like marrying myself.
Right, right. Now, if you tell him that you want to marry him, or you want him to marry you, will that be enough?
No, because I have said that, and then it's just been like...
He deflects.
He's like, well, do you want to marry me?
And I'm like, yeah, I do.
And then he's like...
Okay, and then I'm like, do something then.
And then he's like, okay, I will.
Oh, so you have said to him that you want to marry him?
Yeah. And when did you last have that conversation?
Some months ago, maybe?
Okay, so that's pretty recent, right?
And then he says, okay, let's do it, and then nothing happens?
Yeah. Maybe he's autistic.
No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
No, no, no. Believe me, I've had my suspicions.
In all seriousness now.
Does he know that this kind of torture for you, right?
I don't think I'm overstating it.
If I am, just let me know. No, you're not.
You know, you're pushing 30.
You decided you want to have kids.
You've been in this relationship for 12 years.
Yeah. Yeah. And getting married would solve, to some degree, I mean, wherever you end up, you say it doesn't matter the country you're in, but getting married would solve some of these issues, wherever you could end up, right?
But I'm going to be honest with you, I don't want to move back to this country because this country is shit.
I'm sorry. Right, right.
Also, the childcare is very restrictive and expensive, so I think it would be detrimental to my children.
Unless you stay home and take care of them yourself, you know?
No, but you're not allowed to.
Oh, you have to put the kids in government schools?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, then you just move to a place where you can, right?
Yeah, true, true.
But it would be here. But he's just making up excuses like, oh, I'm not happy here, blah, blah, blah.
I don't like the country. I don't like the people, blah, blah, blah.
You know, just a bunch of shit.
Like, even though it's evidently it's much better than where he comes from.
He's just like, oh, but people are more social where I'm from.
I'm just like, who the fuck cares about them?
You meet them in the park.
You have a 10 minute conversation.
Who cares? You know?
But he puts so much weight on it.
It's like he's making an excuse.
Right. Now, are his parents older too?
Pension age? Right.
Right. So, listen, it could be that you're both just obeying your parents.
If you end up with a truly committed and happy relationship with each other, then you probably aren't going to sit and want to take care of your parents, especially if you have kids of your own, right?
Yeah. Yeah. He's not that connected to his parents, though.
Right. He would definitely be comfortable living in another country without them.
Well, I mean, are they ill yet?
Have they put any pressure on him for this?
No, no, no.
Right. So it's all theoretical until somebody gets really ill, right?
Yeah, yeah. Or maybe he's got a sister and it's more female that way.
No, he doesn't get along with his sibling at all, so he doesn't care about...
He doesn't really...
No, there's no such strings pulling him.
He just doesn't like this place, and I'm just sort of like, but it's better, because one, two, three, four, five, and he's just like, no, I don't like the people, you know, some bullshit like that, you know?
Right, right, right.
So, yeah, discontented, right?
Just discontented. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I also feel like he's one of those people that he's never content because his mom is, like, never content.
We're back to that Prince song.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, like, he's just adapted.
He's just sort of mimicking her constant discontent and jumping and things like that.
Okay, so who is he in your history?
Right, because you've got these skills.
What do you mean? Well, so who is he in your history?
You've got these skills for managing discontented people.
You've got these skills for not being assertive and conforming to other people's preferences and promises without actually expecting them to be full.
Like, who is he in your history?
Because you've got these skills somewhere to deal with this kind of person.
Who does he feel most familiar to?
You mean if I'm comparing him to somebody else?
Yeah, yeah. Somebody in your past, mom or dad or someone else.
Who does he feel like the most familiar to?
It doesn't feel right to say he's most like my mom, because he does give me encouragement, which is a key thing that she never gave me.
Well, okay, but then, oh, hang on, hang on.
But the real encouragement would be, the most encouraging thing he could do is to marry you.
He's not giving you that. Yeah, I... Yeah, but he does encourage me to pursue my interests and things, so I don't want to make him into sort of like black and white figure and talk vastly about him.
No, of course I get that. I'm not saying he is your mother, I'm just talking who he's the most similar to, not who he's identical to, right?
Because one of your interests is getting married and he's not really, he's encouraging you to pursue that, but it's dependent upon him and he's not doing it, right?
Yeah. Or maybe my mom then, putting me in impossible situations.
This is an impossible situation, I think.
To be dependent upon someone's promises when they're not fulfilling their promises.
And you're also in a very difficult situation because, not that I would suggest this, but if you end up tossing aside a 12-year relationship, that's a hell of an investment to throw, right?
Yeah, but at the same time, I can't change somebody who's like...
You just can't change people, so that's what's confusing me.
At some point, I have to be like, if you don't give me this, I have to leave.
You can't change people.
Hang on. You can't change people, but you can model better behavior.
So you can't force people to diet, but you can diet yourself, and that might be inspiring to them.
Are you saying I should just get over my pride and arrange the wedding?
Well... I'm not telling you what to do.
I'm just saying that to model assertive behavior.
To have the speech which goes something like, look, we've been drifting for a decade.
Let's be honest. We don't have to drift.
And you promised to marry me.
You've repeatedly promised to marry me.
And you're not doing anything.
And that is killing me inside.
And it troubles me enormously.
That you don't care about me enough or notice that obvious thing enough to not do it.
If you've changed your mind about marrying me, let's have that conversation.
But if you promise to marry me and you don't marry me, come on.
If you moved countries because somebody promised you a job and then they just didn't return your calls and didn't give you the job nor rescind the offer, you would be really mad, wouldn't you?
Yeah. You would say that to him, right?
So why are you doing that to me?
It's horrible. You put it very well.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, trying to capture, you know, what I think would be going on in my heart in your situation, right?
And that's bad behavior.
And he says, well, you should have just been more assertive.
And it's like, no, no, no. Come on.
I was assertive. I said I wanted to get married.
I said yes 10 years ago when you wanted to marry me.
I was assertive and I've said I want to get married when you're going to marry me.
Assertive is not putting a sack over your head and dragging you to the altar.
That's kidnapping. You're right.
That's not assertive. That's abusive, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you clearly, based upon your actions, don't want to marry me and that's breaking my heart.
After 12 years, what are you not certain enough?
You don't know me well enough. We don't have enough history.
What is it going to take 20 years?
Come on, most people... You know, there's this crazy guy on the internet who runs a philosophy show.
He proposed to his wife within four months and they were married five months later.
As soon as the place was available.
Lock it down, right? So, either you don't know how hurtful this is to me, in which case we kind of work on this empathy thing, but you do know because I've told you that I want to get married.
So, But, like, what is it?
Does he not trust me?
Or, like, I don't know if he hangs around the internet too much and, like, has read tons of, like, stuff that, like, oh, women are untrustworthy, don't marry them, blah blah blah.
I don't know. What is this?
I don't know either. What have I done?
Well, but you're assuming...
Well, there's two things.
One, he's got his own history.
And two, you may still be...
You're conforming to your mother's negative expectations.
And your father's, too. I'll tell you a silly little thing, right?
When my daughter got better than me at video games, it was a little tough for me.
Not very tough, but, you know, a little bit, right?
Yeah. Because that's the thing I do, right?
Heaven help me if she ever gets into first-person shooters.
But anyway. Now, that's completely unimportant, and it was actually kind of funny, right?
It never caused any particular issues between us.
It's just something that I kind of noticed, right?
And I'm not talking about a little bit better.
I'm talking like many times better, right?
Yeah, yeah. So, I can't imagine if I had a bad marriage, like that's video games, completely unimportant, right?
I can't imagine what it would be like if I had a bad marriage and my daughter was enormously happy.
Oh, yeah. Get it.
Right? That's what I'm talking about.
So you may still be running a script where you have, look, doing better than your parents is like breaking the sound barrier in your underpants.
It's very, no, it's very tough.
It's very tough to do better than you.
It really is. We're not designed for that.
Because throughout almost all the human history, that never happened.
So doing better than your parents is really, really tough.
And if you're not aware of it, you'll shy back from that sound barrier, so to speak, because you think it's going to tear you apart, and it might, in terms of, like, your heart for a little while.
Because your parents... It doesn't sound like your parents want you to do better than them, otherwise they would have helped you.
Yeah. So, as far as, like, what am I doing wrong?
Well, you're not doing anything wrong, I would imagine, that part of you...
Because I'm talking to you, not him, so I can't tell you...
I can't tell him what he's doing wrong.
But as far as you being open and welcoming...
To being married.
It just may be something that your parents are not behind you on and in fact maybe unconsciously sabotaging you on.
Yeah. And that's an introspection thing, right?
I should probably just be like, maybe I should show him more that I don't do what my parents say, or like, you know, that I'm not under their boots, sort of like.
No, but showing, so you're trying to jump into actions, and I just said introspection, right?
So, again, it doesn't mean my advice is right.
But if you introspect and you say, okay, how do I feel, or more importantly, how does my mother feel if I have a very happy marriage?
She's going to feel jealous.
She's going to feel resentful.
She's going to feel angry.
She's going to feel aggressive.
Because if you can do it, she could have done it too.
Yeah, but then I don't want to be near her, so...
Well, but then, yeah, there's a whole issue then, because then if you start having a happy marriage, right?
This is about the parental aging thing.
That's why I asked how old they were. So let's say you start having a happy marriage, then she may, both your parents and maybe his parents too, may unconsciously sabotage that.
In which case...
You will feel worse because you'll have a plus 8 happiness out of 10 with your marriage, and then you hang out with your parents, you talk to your parents, you're with your parents, suddenly you're down to minus 5.
Right? And it's harmful to your marriage, right?
Now, being committed to your marriage, being committed to your relationship, it's pretty brutal, but it's very simple.
It's very simple.
If you harm my marriage, you're totally expendable.
Right?
That's loyalty.
That's commitment. If you harm my marriage, and I don't mean giving pointers or tips or, you know, helping things, but if you harm my marriage, you're expendable.
Right? I had a very, very close family member say, well, what's the point of getting to know your wife?
You're just going to get divorced anyway.
Right? Boom.
Done. Gone. How could someone say that?
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Very close family member.
And I was like, okay, we're done.
Yeah. Because if you're going to delegate my marriage...
This is not particularly subtle, right?
But there were more subtle people.
There were more subtle people.
And I was like, this is not even close, right?
So if your parents are going to be upset with you having a happy marriage, or even just a very happy relationship, My guess is that you're both avoiding the marriage because you're avoiding the parental sabotage at the marriage or leading up to the marriage or the planning for the marriage or who gets to come or where they sit.
Like all this mess, right, that can happen with dysfunctional families?
Yeah. To be honest, I didn't want to say this is the reason because it sounded so silly.
Not silly at all? No, okay, thanks.
No, but I have...
I'm just sort of like...
I have anxiety and massive anxiety about planning things.
No, you don't have massive anxiety about planning things.
You have massive anxiety about dysfunctions within the family coming to the surface.
Yeah, it's not about planning things.
I mean, you planned this call, right?
You planned your day, you planned your dental visits or whatever, right?
But you have massive anxiety about dysfunctions in the family.
Because if your family is not happy about you having a happy marriage, they'll mess up the marriage ceremony in some way.
Wait, does this relate to being a procrastinator?
Well, yeah, I would imagine.
I mean, you basically are both procrastinated marriage, and I assume it's to avoid unmasking family dysfunction.
Because if you have a happy marriage, and your parents won't reform, your parents will get dumped.
Right? Because if your parents are harming your marriage, and you have a conscious command that your marriage is number one, and anyone who interferes with the happiness of your marriage is done.
Like, not even, like, they're off the island, they're over the side of the cruise ship, and you don't even look back.
Then your parents don't want you to get married and they don't want you to be happy because that will most likely, if they can't reform and they probably can't, they will simply be tossed aside.
And they don't want that because they need you when they get old.
Yeah. That makes perfect sense.
But, you know, like, if you were smart, you could just fix your problems and be a nice grandparent and just be included anyway, but that just seems too hard.
I mean... They couldn't possibly do any of that without taking ownership for the harm they did you, massively apologizing and doing as much as they possibly could to make restitution.
But they won't even admit that there's a problem.
Right? We did the best we could.
Moving on, right? I don't understand people like this.
But yeah, you're right. So, ours is not to understand them, but simply to evaluate them.
I don't know exactly what a lion thinks, right?
I don't know exactly what the experience of a shark is.
It doesn't really matter, right?
All we do is evaluate the dangers.
Trying to have empathy for the unempathetic is pointless, because they only manipulate.
You'll never find out the truth.
I've wasted so much time on that, unfortunately.
Yeah, why does my mother do what my mother does?
It's like, well, she doesn't have any empathy for herself.
She doesn't have any empathy for me.
And anytime I ask her anything, all she does is try to manipulate me to her advantage.
So there's absolutely no chance.
It's like trying to figure out hieroglyphics before you had the Rosetta Stone.
I can't possibly figure out what my mother's motives are because she doesn't know.
And even if she did know, she'd never tell me.
All I can do is evaluate the plus or minus.
Sorry, go ahead. No, no, that also applies so much to, for example, if I start a new job and I'm just sort of like, why does this person not like me?
Why do I even care?
Well, no, I think it's important to care.
I mean, you have to be aware of the dangers in the corporate environment or the business environment or wherever you are.
I think it's important to be aware of these things.
I don't want to be trying to make conversation to a person that's not interested in anything but backstabbing me.
Why would I want to do that?
Well, because you were trained to make nice with your family who was betraying you your whole childhood.
And so the only way that you can feel secure is to have people like you because you lack the bond.
When you actually have a bond, you can survive people not liking you because you have a bond that is not open to mere like or dislike.
It's not open to like, oh, I like you today.
Let's get along. Oh, I don't like you today.
Let's fight. I mean, that's not a bonded relationship.
A bonded relationship is we work for the best of each other to the best of our ability no matter what.
I mean, my wife and I don't have days where we like each other or don't like each other or anything like that.
She's just great to spend every day with.
That's a bond. And that's because we don't have anyone in our life who's not committed to our relationship in a positive sense.
And just as we wouldn't be in anyone's life if we weren't committed to their relationship in a positive sense.
Yeah, so you think I'm just like...
You think that you need to please people in order to have a bond with them.
That they need to like you in order for you to feel safe.
But feeling safe is never a performance.
Feeling safe is when your values match to the point where you're allies no matter what.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's why I would say, you know, if you have the same values, you have the same values, then that's your bond, right?
We bond in virtue and UPB and philosophy and goodness and all of that.
That's where the bonding is. And people who consistently practice virtue, you're always going to have that bond.
And if somebody does something you don't like, which will occasionally happen in every relationship, it doesn't threaten the bond at all.
I should know this because I am very happy with my friendship bonds.
And I hope that you're not sitting there going, well, you know, if I say something my friend doesn't like.
I mean, why is all this cancel culture and all of this politically correct stuff?
I'm just writing a whole book about this, so sorry for the slighter side.
But it's all just people who don't have a bond, right?
I divide my characters into the daycare kids and the non-daycare kids.
And the daycare kids...
Are very volatile. They don't have much of a bond.
And if someone says something that displeases them, they just throw the relationship out the window.
Because its approval and disapproval is the entire foundation of the relationship, as opposed to sharing the same values that you're both committed to.
Yeah, no. No, don't worry.
I've cleaned up that sort of shit in the past.
Yeah, no. I just...
No, I can't be arsed with people that are like that.
Except... Well... Bob...
Well, but I mean, you have a lot of history with Bob.
You still want to marry him. So, I mean, this sounds to me something really worth fighting for.
And I hope that you will.
I mean, it would be a shame to give up all of that investment.
But I do think...
What if they were just like, no, you can't stay?
Or like, what if he doesn't get the job or like, whatever?
Like, what do I... No, no, no.
See, here's the thing. This is why, I mean, I can't help you with the legal stuff, obviously, right?
But if you have the commitment, the legal stuff is less important.
Right? If you have the commitment to each other, we're together no matter what.
We're for each other no matter what.
Then it doesn't matter as much where you are relative to being together.
Yeah. Because you're like, well, I have to find a place where we're both together and both happy.
But you're dealing with a guy who's fundamentally discontented.
So it's never going to work.
But if he's contented to be with you...
Right? This lovely old poem...
Or it's a saying from the Middle Ages, you know, what do I need to be happy?
A jug of wine, a loaf of bread, and thou.
But see, I want him to show that to me.
Well, you can't control that.
The question is, can you show that to him?
Can you show your commitment to him?
Now, I know you're waiting for him to ask you to marry.
I think I have. No, you're waiting for him to ask you to marry him.
No, no. If you've shown your full commitment to him, but he won't commit to you, then you have a big problem.
I don't think you have shown your full commitment, because we're just uncovering over the course of this conversation all the barriers between you and a full commitment to Bob.
But you know, as you said, I can't drag him to the altar, and I'm sorry if I'm being slow here, but...
You cannot drag him to the altar.
You cannot.
But if you are fully committed to him and you have conversations with – this is not just like a mime thing, right?
These are conversations.
Why – like sit down.
Like you book off a long weekend.
You go someplace.
Yeah.
Yeah. And then you say, you know, here's what I think might be going on on my side, my parents' this, that, and the other.
I'm afraid that you don't love me enough.
This is really harming my self-esteem, which wasn't super high to begin with.
So you can talk about all the things that are barriers to you to get married, and hopefully he will talk about the same things.
And if he doesn't, you just keep talking about yourself until he gets the hang of it and so on.
Look, I'm sure he loves you, and I'm sure he is committed to you, but there's something that's interfering with you both just taking that solid, sensible step to get married.
And when you uncover that and deal with it, you'll get married.
Yeah.
But you just have to be, you know, if he says, well, I don't know, it's like, yes, you do.
Like, come on. Of course you do.
You may not know it consciously, right?
Yeah. Because a lot of people will just fog and, you know, and they're just, you know, uncomfortable with the car.
And don't take it personally.
Right? Don't take it personally. No, that would be my mom getting away with it again.
Right. Yeah. So if, you know...
If you ask him, you know, I don't know, then that's not him talking, that's his parents saying, we don't want you to know.
Because if you know why you can't commit to this lovely young woman, then you'll know what was wrong in our parenting.
So we would rather you not get married and not figure out through that process what was wrong with our parenting, because that's negative to us.
So if he's fogging, if he gets upset, if he gets angry...
I wouldn't take it personally at all, right?
It's just his parents' programming that he's not aware of.
It's not personal to you. Thanks for saying that, because I've taken it very personally.
Right, right, right.
No, the fact that he's with you despite all this parental programming is actually quite a compliment.
Wow. Oh, the guy who can swim against the riptide is the stronger swimmer, even though he might be a lot slower than the guy swimming in the still ocean.
Yeah, I mean, he does have a mind like a rock and positive aspects sometimes as well.
I mean, the guy is highly educated, so...
Yeah, yeah. And as long as you understand that there are historical and psychological and probably parental forces that are keeping you apart, then it's not rejection, it's not personal, it's not an insult, it's not humiliating, it's just, okay, so we didn't know.
The forces that were keeping us apart, now we do and we can deal with it, right?
But the temptation is to take it personally, right?
And of course there were forces tearing your parents apart that they took personally and pretended were about dishes and stupid stuff like that and so on, right?
So it's not personal.
You guys love each other. You care about each other.
You share a lot of the same values.
And there's just forces that are keeping you apart that you're not aware of.
And once you're aware of them, you can deal with them and you can join.
Yeah. There's just one thing that you're not going to like about him.
Go on. If I may, like, I'm just trying to bring a fair perspective to him here.
Okay, so his upbringing was not peaceful parenting.
I have talked a lot about peaceful parenting.
He's not entirely on board with it.
That gives me a doubt as well.
So he would reserve the right to hit his children, to hit your children?
Yeah, he could do that.
If they did something dangerous to themselves, he says.
Well, if you're home, take care of them.
First of all, kids don't want to do things dangerous to themselves because it's painful.
So when they're babies, you just talk to him, right?
So just if he plays with him.
So listen, I understand this is how you were raised.
And I understand that you want to keep for emergencies.
Like it's better for a child to get a smack on the butt than to run into traffic.
Right. I completely understand.
That's exactly the example he took.
He was like, oh, but if they run into traffic, I have to really freaking instill in them that they should never, ever do that again.
Absolutely. So you are on...
I understand that the people who want to reserve the right to hit children are doing it out of a sense of compassion and care.
Most of them, right?
Some of them are just jerks who like hitting children.
I'm not going to put, you know, Bob, I'm not going to put you in this category.
He's not a jerk.
No, no.
Let me talk to Bob.
Let me talk to Bob.
Okay, so I totally understand where you're coming from.
And from your perspective, it's perfectly right.
It is objectively better for a child to get a spanking than for a child to run into traffic and be killed by a truck.
I absolutely agree with you, so we're totally on the same page about that.
Now, I'm sure you're an educated guy, so you know about something called a false dichotomy.
The false dichotomy is the child either runs into traffic or gets a spanking.
Right. That's not...
The way that it works, right?
So the way that it works is when the baby's very little, it's your job to protect the baby.
Obviously, you childproof your house.
You put the gates at the top of the stairs.
You put things in the plugs so they don't stick knives into plugs or whatever.
You keep knives away from them in general.
So it's your job to keep them safe.
Now, you don't punish your baby if you have failed to keep your baby safe.
Now, when they start running, when they start walking and so on, you don't put them in situations where they can run into the road.
Right? If there's a road in front of your house, you build a fence.
Right? You take them to the park.
You get them in the car. You take them in a bus.
You hold their hands. Right? So you don't put them in a situation where they could run into the road.
And you constantly tell them to not run into the road.
And they respect you and they care about you and they learn.
Right? But the problem is if you hit them, they're not learning that the road is dangerous.
They're learning that you're dangerous.
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
You will hit them.
Now, if they're able to understand to not run in the road and you built the safety, you built the security, you built the – right?
They're going to become adults, right?
So they're going to go out and into the world and they're going to have to deal with roads and sunburns and other dangerous things.
So you want them to internalize these standards because you're going to turn them loose anyway, right?
So if they're so young that they can't understand that they shouldn't run into a road, then it's your job to keep them from those situations.
And it's actually very easy to do.
It's very easy to do.
You hold their hand. You carry them.
You build a fence.
It's tons of ways to keep that safe.
But if you break that and you say, it's not the road you have to be afraid of, kid.
It's me. The problem is they then become afraid of you.
Now, if they become afraid of you, they may not come to you and they probably won't come to you for life advice when they get into their teenage years.
And then what happens?
Then what happens is they turn to their peers.
They turn to the Internet.
They turn to chat groups.
They turn to TikTok.
God help them, right?
And then they get all kinds of terrible advice.
And then because they don't have a stronger bond with you because they're scared of you, they end up with a strong bond with their peers, right?
Now, what happens with a strong bond with their peers?
What happens is they end up trying alcohol.
They end up being pressured to take drugs.
They end up pressured to have sex when they don't want to and they're not ready to and so on, right?
Now, all of these things are arguably much more dangerous over the course of their life.
So you're not solving the problem of danger by hitting them.
You're actually making it worse, but it defers it down the road.
You always want to keep that line of communication open with your children.
You never want them to be scared of you because then they'll hide things from you.
And when they hide things from you, you have no say over what is going on in their lives.
They end up being influenced by all their peers, making really, really bad decisions, which can have lifelong consequences and which you have no authority over anymore.
So hitting children, I understand.
If it's to keep them alive, obviously that makes sense.
But that's a false dichotomy.
What you want to do is protect them when they're young, teach them about the dangers in the world, Make sure that their bond with you stays strong and open so that they will come to you when they face peer pressure rather than bowing to their peers and ending up with a life that is much worse than if they'd been exposed to occasional dangers as young kids.
That would be sort of one of the arguments.
I mean, other than the purely moral one, which is you can't initiate the use of force against people.
Yeah, because his sibling did not turn to his parents and like...
Oh my god, I've never seen such a messed up person, to be honest.
Well, and he was hit, and he's unable to commit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So he's not an example of how positive and wonderful this is.
So yeah, it's all about prevention, not cure.
If you're in a situation where your kid is running towards the road, if anyone should be spanked, it should be you as a parent, not the child.
Because it means you failed in keeping your child in a safe environment.
Yeah, like, if my kid ran out on the road, I would feel scundered.
Like, I would put it on myself.
Like, you know, I would feel like the worst part ever.
But you would not want that to happen, so you'd make sure you weren't in a situation where your kid could run on the road.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I would have...
No, no, no. I would have been a total OCD about that.
Right. It's the same thing with cooking and fire and so on, right?
Until the kid's old enough to understand, you keep them away from these things and you educate them about these things and that's how things should play out.
But no, it's not. And also you can ask him, like, if he gets old and he forgets things, will it be fine if his kids hit him?
Let's say that he gets old and he forgets that he leaves something on the stove.
Are the kids allowed to pull down his pants and spank his bare bottom because he forgot something?
Well, no, of course not, right?
You're right, yeah.
Why would it be different? That's also a conversation I need to have with him again.
Well, I think so, yeah.
Everybody has their own particular make or breaks in relationship and so on, but I would not want to parent with somebody who had violence as an option on the table, but everybody's going to make their own choice, although you're making the choice on behalf of your kids.
But here's the thing, you know, I mean, Trust in your desirability and if you make a good enough case and you're certainly a wonderful enough woman, I'm sure he'll figure out the right approach.
I hope so.
I hope it works out.
Also, if he doesn't listen to reason, hang on, if he doesn't listen to reason, is it okay for you to hit him?
What if he does something that you consider dangerous?
Are you allowed to hit him?
I would never hit him or even think about it.
No, of course not. So, you know, why would you have lower standards for children who are helpless and dependent than adults who are independent and all that?
Your job is to protect your children, not to hit them into compliance.
Yeah, yeah. Listen, I'm going to wind things down here, but I just wanted to make sure that we had touched on at least some stuff that would be helpful for you moving forward.
Oh, yes, definitely, definitely.
At least it made me understand my parents better and I have more thinking to do about that.
Yes, and I think a lot of conversations to have with people around, right?
I mean, you can also ask your parents, why do you think you guys fought so much?
Oh, it's such a long time ago.
Who even knows now, right?
It's like, wait, are you saying you don't fight now?
Because I think you still fight now.
So what do you fight? Like, why do you think you fight so much?
Oh, that's just marriage. No, no, it's not all.
You just have those conversations so you see what their level of knowledge is because you're mapping their defenses and mapping their defenses is mapping what you had to comply with as a kid and that can be very helpful.
It makes them very uncomfortable too.
Well, it's like, yeah, okay, but I was pretty uncomfortable when I was being bullied as a kid and that seemed fine, right?
Yeah, like I don't care. It's just funny.
It's like parents who make kids really uncomfortable and they're like, well, you know, discomfort is the worst thing in the world.
It's like, no, I don't think that's real.
Because, you know, I was pretty uncomfortable as a kid and that seemed to be alright.
But to be honest with you, does that make me a bad person if I say, like, I don't want to move countries again?
Right. Again, is that, like, what do you think of me expressing that to you?
Well, just be honest, right?
And say, look, if, you know, he's a businessman, right?
So he's used to win-win negotiations.
So if we could find a way that we don't have to move, that would be better, right?
Yeah. So, yeah, we'll just aim for that.
I can't even afford it again, so it's fine.
Right. Yeah, I mean, it may be somewhat less theoretical anyway, so...
Yeah. Yeah, so...
Okay, I'm not going to keep you too long.
It's just one last question.
I think I need to ask this again if I have asked it.
But if he gets declined, like, in my situation, what would you do if he, like, is like, no, he can't stay here, and he's just like, well, fuck it then.
Like, I'll just go back home.
Like, what would you do? Like, Because if I follow him, I feel like a sucker.
Well, to say, you know, you can have standards in a relationship, right?
Which is, hey, if we get married, that's great.
If we don't get married, I'm not sure what I'm following you for.
Am I following you for to just not get married?
We've already done that for 10 years.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks.
That helped when you said that.
Mantle block. I always liked the women who would say what they wanted.
The women who would say, look, I don't want to fling, you seem like a great guy, let's really aim for something solid here.
That's a good thing.
And saying, look, if we're going to move again, or if you want to move, then let's at least get married.
Let's at least be committed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm just sitting here like, you should, if you can be harsh to get all your documents together, hard as it may be, we can't stay here and we can't get married, so I think I'll keep that as my standard.
Well, yeah, and look, it's not an ultimatum, because an ultimatum would be, do this or else, and it's like, but he's already said he wants to do this.
True. You know, like, if I say, I'll give you 500 bucks for that iPad, and you ship me that iPad, and then you want the money, that's not an ultimatum.
I've already agreed to give 500.
You're just reminding me of what I've already...
So this is different from an ultimatum, because he's already asked you.
You've already asked back. He says he wants to.
Right? So it's not an ultimatum to remind people of their commitments.
Yeah. Yeah, sorry.
I feel so dumb at realizing this.
It's actually not an ultimatum if I say that.
No! No, if he said, I don't want to get married, and you say, well, get married or we're over, that's an ultimatum.
But he's like, yeah, it'd be great to get married.
Let's get married. I'm going to ask you to marry.
You've said yes. Oh, you want me to get married?
Let's get married. It's like reminding people of their commitments, that's not an ultimatum.
That's just saying, you know, if I promise to take my daughter to the park, and then she says, but you promised to take me to the park, is she giving me an ultimatum?
Take me to the park or I'll be upset.
No, she has every right to be upset because I'm breaking a promise.
So, it's not an ultimatum to say, there will be consequences to you if you break a promise to me, such as getting married.
There will be consequences.
But then he's just going to say, oh, I promised to marry you, but not here.
And then tie it to a specific place.
And did he say that? No, but if I'm going to say that...
No, no, no. If he didn't know...
So, okay. Let's do this.
We'll do this quick, right? Okay.
So, I will say...
He says, I want to move.
And I say, okay, I'll move with you, but let's close up that commitment to get married.
Let's get married. Yeah.
He would say what? Yeah, let's get married or whatever.
Yeah. Okay.
Let's set a date. Did I follow your thought here, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so let's set a date.
Okay. Yes.
Yeah, we'll get married.
Hang on, we'll get married at City Hall, and then we can have a bigger ceremony later when we can arrange it all.
Yeah. And let's do it this weekend.
Yeah. Okay, so then you're married, right?
He didn't put up much of a fight?
I thought he was going to put up a fight. No, I'm sorry, I'm not good at these role-playing things.
No, he's going to be like, no, but I can't stay in this country and I promise you to get married, so let's go to this other place and get married then.
Well, our marriage will be legally binding anywhere we go.
Why does it matter where we would be?
Well... Because he can't stay here, so...
Well, you can stay here long enough for us to get married.
Yeah.
And then he said, what, something about, like, I said I would marry you in this other country?
No, he would just be like, but why don't you come with me then?
Oh, listen, if you want me to come with you to this other country and then we get married the first weekend we're there, I think I could manage that.
But we have to get married.
If I'm going to follow you to another country, I'm tired of this boyfriend-girlfriend thing.
I mean, look, it's been 10 years since you asked me to marry you.
I still don't see a ring on this finger.
If you want, and you keep promising to marry me, and I'm tired of waiting.
I really am, because I want to settle down and have kids, right?
I understand. I'm just going to make this requirement.
I'm going to be like, okay, look, Bob, if you're serious about marrying me, you have to marry me right here now in the soil.
Yeah, or whatever it's going to be.
Now, if he says it has to be in another country for some legal reason, okay, you fly to that other country and you get married the first weekend you're there.
But that's bullshit. It doesn't have to be married in another country for a legal reason.
Okay, then you get married here.
Yeah. Okay, I get it now.
Because if he doesn't Then it's just like, oh, okay, screw it, then you're not committed, Bob.
Well, if he has to leave the country, and he won't marry you, that doesn't bode super well.
Yeah, but he doesn't have to leave immediately, you know?
He could give it another couple weeks or whatever.
Like, he could definitely do it here.
But if he doesn't want to do it here, if he wants to do it over there, then it's just like, okay, Bob, but then I don't really feel like marrying me is your primary concern here.
Well, no, to me it would also, I mean, of course, right?
But to me it would also be, so you want me to follow you to a new country, spend a lot of money, set up my entire career in a new country, and that's a huge commitment for me.
Yeah, yeah. But you won't commit to marrying me.
Like, that's just one-sided.
That's me making all the concessions, me making all the sacrifice.
Not that I think getting married to me is a sacrifice, but I'm making all the commitment and you're making none.
You understand? That's not good for our relationship.
That's kind of humiliating for me.
Yeah, and I could also be moving there again a second time and then you could also flake out on marrying me again.
So what's the guarantee that you're going to ever marry me?
Yeah, and also you might not even be happy in that country.
Maybe you want to go some other place.
No, we're definitely not going to be happy there because, Bob, you've already said tens of thousands of times that you regret coming here.
So, Bob, you need to make up your mind now.
Yeah, Bob, you're pushing 30.
You know, I'm not asking you to marry me when we're 17, right?
We've been together 12 years.
Now, if we've been together 12 years and I'm not good enough to marry, that's going to break my heart.
But it's going to break my heart less than spending another five years and still not being married.
Yeah, yeah. TikTok, Bob.
TikTok, that's right. And also, you know, have some empathy for my fertility window, which is much shorter than yours.
Yeah, I do think about that.
You can wait if you want.
You can have kids when you're 60.
I don't recommend it, but you could.
Mick Jagger's having a kid at 70-something, right?
But, you know, I can't.
Like, have some compassion. Have some sympathy.
Well, Steph, look.
What if I have this conversation with him and he just, like, blocks me like my mom does?
What do you mean blocks you?
What if he's just like...
Oh, yeah, but I don't believe that you're going to get through with your commitment of staying here.
I believe that once, if I'm like, oh, I'm going to leave now, and I buy this ticket to fly back home, and the day comes, you're going to be like, oh, no, wait, I'll come.
Oh, you mean if he calls you a bluff?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Well, what do you mean? What's going to happen?
You're either going to go with him or you won't.
Yeah, but I don't want to be a pushover.
I understand that.
And if you don't want to be a pushover, you won't go.
But, you know, as a staff, okay, I'm going to be perfectly honest.
I'm afraid of ending up alone.
I get that. No, I understand that.
I really understand that. I really understand that.
Is there even any possibility that I'll find someone?
Ever? Like, I just feel so freaking old.
Right. Right.
Now, please tell the guy who's turning 57 this year how old you are.
I'm just kidding. I understand.
I understand. Think about my fertility window here.
I get that. Now, listen.
If you feel, genuinely feel, like you have no leverage, no negotiation in the relationship, the relationship will generally not work.
Because it's desperation.
Do you think that you're a good person for someone to spend his life with?
Yes. Okay.
Do you think that it's possible for another man to see that?
Yes, I'm just worried that there's so many assholes out there.
I get that. I completely understand that, for sure.
Like, my fear is not of somebody else being like, oh, she's really lovely.
My fear is like, that'll be like one in a million.
I'm just like, you know, do I have to make this a full-time job to go out and meet people now?
Well, you're concerned that Bob won't recognize that he can't do better.
And you're afraid that you can't do better than Bob, right?
No, it's more like me not having the time to find someone before I'm a shrivelable egg.
Well, you can find the time.
I mean, if you want, you can work part-time, live in a small apartment, and spend six hours a day looking for a guy.
Joining clubs, going to meetups, going out in public, and however people meet these days.
I don't know. I am not.
Not going to get Tinder or any apps such as that.
No, I'm not saying Tinder, which just seems to be a great vector for spreading dysfunction.
Yeah, but that is how people find people today, or so they say, I don't know.
But it's not how people of quality find each other, I don't think.
No, I agree with you, but it's like how people say that, oh, that's dating today, and that really worries me, because I don't want to date that way.
I want to go out and meet people, you know?
No, I think, certainly the people I know, even who are younger, they're having decent luck in the real world, right?
Actually going out to me. I mean, it's after post-pandemic and all that, right?
I know the pandemic was pretty rough for people that way.
Look, here's the problem.
The problem is that he's promised to marry you, and he knows how much that means to you, and he's not doing it.
Yes. Now, if you marry him...
Sorry, if you stay with him and you have kids even though he won't marry you, even though he's promised to, will you be happy or unhappy?
That's a little tough to tell, right?
No, I'll hit the wall.
No, you won't hit the wall if you stay with him and have kids, right?
No, no, but if I stay with him even though he never does anything, then it's just going to be like, oh my god, what have I done?
Well, yes, okay, so it's tough enough now But if it's another year or two, and he's still...
Would you be satisfied in having kids with him, even if you weren't formally married, if he had that commitment with you to have kids?
I mean, call me old-fashioned, but I would say it a little bit as a...
Is this some sort of joke?
No, I get that, but would you be able to live with it?
I mean, I know you'd prefer to be married.
Because in many places, if you have kids and you live together, you're common-law married anyway.
Legally, it doesn't make any difference, really.
I mean, I'm going to be honest with you and be like, yes, but now that he has actually promised to marry me, then it's a no.
Okay. So, then the choice is, if you won't be happy with him if he won't marry you, then if you go with him and he doesn't marry you, You're going to end up breaking up anyway.
It's just you'll have lost another year or two and be in an even worse situation.
You think so? No, no.
You will be. If you said you wouldn't be happy with him if he didn't marry you, is that right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so if you're not happy with him, the odds are that you're going to break up, right?
See, I'm afraid that I'm just going to be...
Letting myself sit there and be discontent because I'm not assertive enough as a person.
Well, but assertiveness is a choice, right?
There's some things you can... I can't choose to be taller or grow hair on the top of my head or anything.
But to be assertive, you can just make that as a choice.
I'm not saying it's an easy choice, but you certainly can do it.
And if you say, look, if you want me to move with you to another country, you have to fulfill your promise to me and marry me.
Because you swore that you would.
You promised me you would marry me.
So let's do that. Now, if he recoils from that and will not get married to you, then odds are, if that would make you unhappy, the relationship will end over time anyway.
So it's kind of like if you're in a car and for some reason you have to jump out of the car and the car is going faster and faster, it's better to do it now rather than later.
You say, oh, well, I don't want to jump out of the car.
It's like, yes, but, you know, in 30 seconds it'll be going even faster and it'll be even worse.
So if you won't be happy with him if he doesn't marry you and you stay with him for another year or two and then end up breaking up, you're in an even worse situation.
Because now you're 30, 31, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if for some reason the marriage thing is a big hiccup for him… But you have the same legal rights and you can get over the peaceful parenting stuff or whatever.
I don't know. I'm not you, so I don't know how important that might be or not.
But it would seem to me, if you end up with the same legal rights anyway, you might as well get married because it's the same thing, but you get a cool party out of it anyway.
So that to me is like...
Then it would be some odd thing.
It's like, okay, well, why don't you want to marry me?
Now, he may have legitimate...
Now, if you say, why don't you want to marry me?
In genuine curiosity, like, what's the barrier to marrying me?
He might have some very astute criticisms that would be important to address, right?
And you should listen to those.
And, you know, if there's a barrier, it's like, you know, I can't stand that you yodel in the shower.
I don't know. Whatever.
I mean, whatever nonsense or maybe serious stuff it might be, right?
Yeah. He might say, you never tell me directly what you want and I feel like I'm marrying into a fog bank, right?
Okay, maybe that's reasonable criticism and that's good to listen to.
And you say, look, okay, so if I really work on that and I commit to working on that, can we do it, right?
And you sign up for therapy and you take assertiveness training or whatever it's going to be, right?
If you're willing to address his issues, then that should remove those barriers, right?
But if he's just setting up hoops for you to jump through with no intention of burying you, but that would be pretty cruel.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. One last thing before I let you go, because this call is so long now, and I kind of need to go, but any recommendation on books to read for my sort of assertiveness slash seeking approval problem?
Yeah, I mean, I... Yeah, I mean, I've always liked Nathaniel Brandon's work, The Psychology of Self-Esteem, I thought was very good.
Very good. That was a very important book for me.
Yeah, when I was younger.
He does a lot of workbooks, too, sentence completion exercises designed to tease out the unconscious stuff.
Yeah. So, codependent children, if overseeking of approval is an issue, which again, I have sympathy for, and it's not a character flaw, it's just how you had to survive, right?
So, you know, like for a veteran of the army to be jumpy around loud noises is not a character flaw, it's just what he had to do to survive, right?
So, whatever you can find in terms of books of codependence.
But again, I'm a big fan of talk therapy, if you can find it.
A good therapist, I guess, either in person or online.
Schwartz's work on the internal family systems therapy, IFS, internal family systems therapy, I also think is quite good.
And that's a way of sort of confronting internalized alter egos of external authority figures.
That can be a good work as well.
So there's a lot of work you can do even on your own, but I think there's really not much substitute for talk therapy.
Okay. Well, Yeah, thanks for that, because I've just had no idea where to...
I've lined out my problem, but just had no idea how to approach it.
But I will definitely have a look.
But you'll get a lot out of conversations with people, and if you can be assertive with your parents, you can be assertive with just about anyone.
So that may be a good place to go.
All right, I know you've got to go.
Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
How? Oh, just the same email that you sent, callinatfreedomain.com.
C-A-L-L-I-N, just callinatfreedomain.com.
And listen, if Bob wants to talk, I'm happy to chat as well.
I obviously wish the very best for you guys, and I'm sure you can resolve things, and I certainly, you know, anything I can do to help, I'd be happy to.
Yeah, I'm going to try to get him to talk to you.
He would definitely be a tough nut to crack.
Hey, I work on tough nuts.
That's my specialty. All right, but listen, keep me posted, and thanks so much for the call today.
It was very good. Thank you so much.
You filled me with courage and I'm so happy I got to speak with you.
My pleasure. Have a lovely day now.
You too. Bye. Bye.
So just one thing I wanted to add here at the end.
One of the tragedies, of course, is that this lovely young woman is now attempting to negotiate a relationship when she is in a lower state of romantic market value, whereas the man has elevated his state from when he was younger to now he's professional, he's got an income, he's educated, and so on.
And she is, as she says, pushing 30, a little bit worried about reproductive windows and so on.
So she's trying to negotiate...
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