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Nov. 2, 2022 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:15:00

Good Girlfriend or Sexy Ex!?! Freedomain Call In

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Time	Text
	Hello. Hi, Stefan.
	How are you? I'm well, thanks.
	How are you doing? I'm not bad.
	I'm not bad. But it could be better.
	Well, you know, the longer the pause, the more valuable the conversation, right?
	If it's like, oh, great!
	It's like, well, let's just exchange how great we are and move on.
	All right. So, listen, I'm happy to help.
	Do you want to start off by reading the email?
	Do you want to just chat?
	What's your pleasure? Could you read that for me please?
	I don't have it quite in front of me because I suppose it Yeah, sure enough.
	Would that be okay?
	Thanks. No, I got it. Yeah. All right.
	So what you wrote to me, let me just bring it up here.
	Dear Stefan, I'm in a two-year relationship with a woman of virtue who cares for me and would make a great mother, but whom I don't love.
	Four to five years after the breakup of the love of my life, I'm still visited by my ex and dreams, and despite all her many flaws, I wonder if I can ever move on.
	My life has seemed meaningless without my ex these last few years, despite my numerous blessings, home, health, girlfriend, job, etc.
	How do I move on? Why is virtue not enough for me?
	How do I feel human again?
	Yeah, no, listen, I think any man of any quality has been in the slightly obsessive phase of mine because, you know, that's pair bonding.
	That's all kinds of stuff like that.
	So I sympathize.
	I've been there and I'm sure there's more that you want to add.
	So do you want to just kick it off and we'll go from there?
	Absolutely. Before I start, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me tonight.
	And just from time to time, I might mention things that I've heard from your shows over the years, because I've been a long-time listener.
	But if I mischaracterize anything, just let me know.
	I'll try to say everything with, I think you said, and things like this, because this talk about virtue, it's a big part of Our conversation tonight and everything like that.
	So, yeah, I also want to put out there that I really, before we start, I don't think I'm a particularly good person based on some of the things I've done in previous relationships and this relationship as well, quite frankly.
	And it's something that I'm also trying to live with, yeah?
	And I think that also makes this whole situation and my life in general quite difficult when I look at some of these things that I've Can we say Sally is the current and Jane is the ex?
	To be honest, I think...
	I think I'll be terrible with remembering names.
	Okay, we can just say current and X. That's fine.
	Yeah, that'll be all right.
	Thanks. So with the current one, yeah, very caring person.
	Very, I mean, very helpful.
	I live in a foreign country.
	I won't say which, but it's sort of...
	I'll say Eastern Europe because I might talk a bit about the culture maybe during our conversation.
	So it's not quite as...
	Let's say, westernized, sort of, you know, this kind of version of maybe feminism that we've got in the West, like Canada, America, Britain, that sort of thing.
	So, the reason I mention that is because a really, really caring person looks after me, like, helps me with things like, you know, translation of things, admin stuff, you know, dealing with public offices or, you know, like, helping me move.
	All of these things, like, really, over the last two years, she's She's been a good girlfriend, very caring, great cook, great around the house.
	It sounds maybe a bit demeaning to say that, but she...
	Oh, God, no. No, that's not demeaning at all.
	You know, when I think about maybe having a family someday, it's like, you know, my kids aren't going to starve.
	You know, there's always going to be not just a meal on the table, but a healthy meal or something decent, you know, and...
	A very well-organized person, and she works.
	These are good qualities.
	A general calmness, let's say, of character.
	I think that's where maybe the personal...
	Maybe there's some incompatibility there.
	We're both maybe a little bit aware that we're in a kind of position in our relationship where it's like, okay, what's going on?
	Are we going forward with this?
	We would talk...
	It sounds maybe cruel for me to say, given the letter that you've just read out loud, but it might sound cruel, but we've talked about things like kids and marriage and stuff like that, and from my perspective, I'm looking at all these things as like, yeah, it would be good to, like I think you've said in your episodes, that what do you do with the second part of your life?
	Even though I wasn't wildly a fan of the idea of kids when I was a few years younger, in the last relationship with that, That we'll get on to talking about.
	With my current girlfriend, we often talk about this.
	But I'm very aware that neither of us have talked about our feelings, like in terms of saying I love you or things like that.
	When we do have discussions around that sort of topic of feelings and things like that, that's when I can feel like I'm hurting her I don't want to, of course, and I don't want to waste her life as well.
	I was in a relationship with someone before just for my own sake, and maybe this is also the same as well.
	It's nice to have companionship.
	It's great when someone can support you through many things, but you don't want to just use that person for years on end.
	And it certainly wasn't like that when I first met her.
	It was trying to genuinely Like with her and other people between my ex and my current girlfriend, trying to move on, get past this maybe one-itis or whatever, you know, when you just obsess about one person.
	And it just seems like none of these relationships, this latest one included, have ever really stacked up to what I had with someone who I would say maybe lacks certain virtues.
	I mean, I'm one to talk about.
	I certainly lack many virtues.
	This ex, when I compare her just simply on paper to the girlfriend I've just described to you, you might ask, like, what do you see in the old one?
	What's going on there?
	Because, and to cut a long story short, although I'm sure we'll go into some details, hopefully, I would say there's a big part of that probably is, let's say, some degree of sexual...
	Compatibility. Just, you know, let's say it feels right or more right.
	Whereas in the current relationship, sadly, she tries, I think, but I'm just not feeling it and there's not much passion or anything like that.
	So I think we generally try to avoid that sort of stuff because I don't want to just make her feel worse.
	And frankly... I don't have much of a need for it, maybe if that's the way to put it or something.
	So, yeah, maybe that tells you a little bit about my relationship at the moment.
	Sure okay so yeah let's talk about the ex and how long yeah how long did you guys go out tell me tell me about the story of that relationship how long it lasted how it like why didn't breaking up that kind of stuff.
	Yeah and just so you know I'll probably add lots of details here and there so there's there's a ton to unpack so if I'm If I'm ever going too much into one thing or something, just, you know, just rein me in, yeah, as far as...
	Yeah, I appreciate your thoughtfulness, but you don't need to run my end of the conversation.
	That's my job. Just do your thing, and if I have any issues, trust me, I will say so.
	Again, I appreciate the thoughtfulness, but yeah, just roll with it, and trust me to do my end.
	So with the ex, I went out with her for three years, and...
	It was roughly around when I was about 26, 27, something like that.
	And I think that the age factor has a bit of a play in it now.
	We were both the same age.
	And we went out for three years, as I mentioned.
	Then we had a break for one year where we'd basically broken up but had continued as quote-unquote friends.
	Which I wouldn't recommend for other guys out there.
	But that just simply meant that I was, I think during that time, I was looking to move on.
	I knew I loved her, yeah?
	But it got to the point where it just was impossible to be in that relationship.
	I was living with her, but living at her place.
	And again, that's something I'm not...
	I don't recommend really because everything had to be to her standards and one of her downsides definitely was that she would threaten to nuke the relationship if I didn't like something.
	Can you give me an example?
	Yeah, so, like, let's say we were arguing about, usually it was things like cleaning, because I'm not a tidy person, and I think I'm a lazy person, frankly.
	I think we're referred to as highly creative, but, you know, you can put it that way if you want as well, but, alright.
	My thoughts are organized, my environment, not quite so much.
	Anyway, but that just means you have to find somebody who, yeah, I mean, one of the big challenges in relationship is finding people who are different from yourself without making that wrong.
	So, you know, in relationships, if you're more organized in your thoughts, and the other person is less organized in their thoughts, then they might refer to you as, you know, anal and rigid, and you might look at them as crazy and unstable and so on.
	And it's like, no, no, one of you is more organized in your thoughts, the other one's more organized and You need someone who's different from you.
	I mean, the power of a relationship is the division of labor, right?
	So you need someone who's different from you without making that difference wrong.
	And so I'm more organized in my thoughts slightly.
	My wife is more organized in our environment.
	And we both respect that in each other.
	And so, yeah, I mean, if not being super tidy in your environment comes with other benefits, and it does seem to in personalities as a whole, then the great temptation is for the other person to call you a slob and messy and you just don't care because you won't take care of the environment and escalate, escalate, escalate, as opposed to, oh, good, yeah, here's something I'm better at, so I'll focus on that.
	And, you know, there's something that you're better at, so you should focus on that and we should, you know, Viva la différence.
	I respect the difference, but it doesn't sound like that particularly played out in that relationship.
	No, and to be honest, with the ex, it was kind of her way or the highway sort of thing and everything.
	And I kind of get that.
	Where we live, I won't mention, but places are really small.
	It's flat sizes.
	Everything's very compact.
	So you notice when one person is a bit messy or she had this...
	Lovely kitchen that she'd kind of put together, and if I sort of didn't treat it as well, like, now looking back, you know, I'm sort of now in my sort of early, mid-30s, and I look at that sort of stuff, and I think, yeah, I could have done more.
	But it's just kind of not so much in my nature to...
	Oh, no!
	I'm so sorry. I hate to be, you know, Captain Obvious, and maybe I'm wrong about this.
	But it's not that you didn't care enough.
	It's not that you weren't thoughtful enough.
	It comes down to one simple thing.
	You're a man and she bullied you.
	This is why you don't bully people in relationships because you just end up in this stupid World War I trench combat that goes nowhere.
	Because she's like, well, if you cared about me and you tidy up and you don't tidy up, then we're through and it's over.
	And it's like nobody with any shred of self-respect is going to do things under that level of pressure and bullying, right?
	Absolutely. Well, that's the thing.
	When I would talk to my best friend about my relationship with the ex, you know, it was a weekly thing.
	We'd get together, have some drinks or something, and invariably I'd start talking about this or that, and he'd give advice for years and all the rest of it.
	But it was very clear from all of those late-night conversations and talking things through that it's like, God, this is not very healthy.
	That every time something goes wrong...
	I mean, towards the end it was happening.
	The first two years, not so much.
	But towards the end...
	It was kind of like, well, if you, meaning me, if you don't, if you aren't happy with something, then just you can leave.
	You can go. And to me, that was kind of like hovering the finger over the red button or the nuclear button for the relationship.
	And I really...
	Well, so think of, sorry, think of two people sitting across from a table and each has a button in front of them, right?
	Now... Both people have to push the button in a sense for the relationship to end.
	And she's just saying, hey, I'm pushing my button.
	If you want to push yours, that's fine.
	I'm pushing my button. And that's a very unstable situation to be in.
	Absolutely. And this was why I didn't have confidence in the relationship.
	And I'd read or I'd heard certain things, maybe in the manuscript or something like that, where if you think it's going off the rails...
	So to speak. It's better if you end it on your terms.
	And maybe that's why, in the end, that's kind of what happened.
	I was the one who said, okay, I don't think I can continue with this.
	It wasn't because I didn't love her, despite all of these things that we'll talk about with regards to character.
	I still loved her.
	Perhaps I still do. I'm not sure.
	As I mentioned in my email to you, that I still have dreams about her, which is really...
	A bit freaky, to be honest, but maybe understandable considering the degree to which I cared about her.
	But yeah, it's just I didn't feel comfortable in that environment.
	And she would say later, there was after about a year, to kind of carry on the story a little bit, I took some I tried to, let's say, do some things to see if we could actually get back together.
	Wait, so sorry, you were together for two years apart for one and then you got back together?
	We were together for three years.
	Then there was like this year where we were sort of still in quite close contact, but I was trying to see other people.
	I think she spent that year in sort of like therapy.
	She mentioned that as other things.
	I don't... I think she was in a relationship for that year.
	So from her perspective, maybe I was trying to move on, which I kind of was, but I didn't want to, if that probably doesn't make much sense.
	But I wanted to be with her, but I just wanted her to be maybe a better version of herself, like one that wasn't so demanding, so inflexible.
	Yeah, like everything had to be No, no, that's bullying, right?
	Listen, if everything has to be...
	I'm that way with this show, right?
	I like things to be kind of good and quality and all of that, but I'm not bullying people about it.
	I'm just getting it done. So if she wants things a certain way...
	She can have them that way.
	I mean, it wasn't like you were going to interfere with that, right?
	I mean, if she wanted, you know, as women seem to want all these pillows on the bed, right?
	Like, you know, my wife wants all these pillows on the bed.
	I don't know why. We don't ever use them.
	They're pretty.
	I get that, right? So she wants it a certain way.
	So she puts the pillows on the bed and she takes them down.
	And sometimes I'll do it if I'm sort of getting up later or whatever, right?
	But she wants things a certain way, so she has them that way.
	The problem isn't that she...
	The language that you're using is why you're still dreaming about her.
	Like, I still love her, and she just was a kind of inflexible.
	It's like, no, no, no. Inflexible is fine.
	Right? Inflexible is fine.
	The bullying is not.
	So it's the language that you're using, I think, that is the root of the problem.
	Most of our problems arise not from what happens to us, but the language we use to describe it.
	So it's not that she has certain standards.
	It's not that she wants things a certain way.
	It's not that she's inflexible.
	Those things are fine.
	Those things are perfectly fine.
	And everybody wants things a certain way.
	And everyone should have things that they're inflexible about, right?
	I mean, I'm inflexible about monogamy and marriage.
	I'm inflexible about not having abusive people in my life.
	I mean, inflexibility and, oh, it's just so rigid.
	It's like, well, that's just a word.
	It's having standards, right?
	People who want to break down your standards will always denigrate your boundaries, right?
	Sorry, I don't mean to be overly lengthy here, but...
	The problem wasn't that she had standards and wanted things a certain way and that she was a bully about it.
	Isn't that right? I think, yeah, maybe instead of me using the word inflexible, I should say that she wasn't so willing to hear my standards on something.
	So one example, and I think you've talked about this in many of your previous shows or some of your previous shows, was Talking to exes.
	So one thing which I wasn't so proud of was looking at her Facebook account.
	One time, which I know doesn't show good character on my part.
	And seeing that she was writing to an ex of hers.
	And she basically wanted to meet him.
	And just kind of catch up and things like that now.
	As I said, I'm in a foreign country, so it was in a different language.
	So I can't really say to this day exactly what the tone was like or that sort of thing.
	Oh, sorry. So the country that you're in, that's where your ex-girlfriend was from as well, and she spoke that language, and that's what you were trying to decipher?
	Yeah, yeah. So I don't, let's say, live in the West.
	No, I get that. I get that.
	I just wanted to understand that.
	Both girlfriends in question are from this, let's say, different culture.
	So when I read those messages, there was only so much I could glean from them, but I understood that they were in contact, they were relatively recent.
	And she had not told you about this.
	She hadn't told me about them, and when she told me one evening that she needed to, I think, she said something about going to meet someone, and because of my, you know, having seen these messages, I asked, oh, who?
	And she said, this was over the phone, and she said, oh, No one you know, just someone from blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	And I said, no, no, no. Who are you mean?
	And she said, oh, really, really?
	It's no one. It's no one.
	And then after finally asking again, she said that it was her ex.
	And she said something to the extent of, I don't know, it was years ago, but something to the...
	This is why I didn't want to tell you because...
	It's your fault. It's your fault, you see, because you would just get so jealous and irrational that I had to keep it from you.
	It's not that I'm a lying cheat.
	It's that you're just volatile and that's why...
	I know. I mean, come on.
	This is ridiculous, right?
	What she's saying. I agree 100%.
	And we had a bit of a discussion backwards and forwards, but the long and the short of it was she asked me at the end...
	She said, if you don't want me to see this person, then I won't.
	And I said, without missing a beat, I said, I don't want you to see this person.
	And she said, fine, in that way that you know it's not fine.
	When we later broke up and when later we actually, let's say, caught up a few times, she would...
	I suppose her philosophy, if we can call it that, was that, okay, exes should be okay to see each other if it's just over a tea or coffee.
	And part of me actually thinks that there's some truth to that, that she did have that kind of relationship with exes, where she would just once, from time to time, just check in on them.
	But I couldn't help but think there was something about kind of keeping a little bit of an orbit, you know what I mean?
	Just to keep some options in play.
	I don't like to use words like, you know, monkey branching or whatever it is nowadays, but I couldn't help but feel like there was a little bit of an ego trip or something like that.
	Just knowing what her previous options were still up to.
	Do you know what I mean? That's the kind of feeling I was left with.
	I don't necessarily think it would have gone straight to, I don't know, out-and-out cheating or infidelity or things like that.
	But that's kind of...
	And I should add something in my story, although it shames me to this day, is that I wasn't faithful in that relationship.
	And I don't remember exactly the timeline, whether it was before or after this.
	But I did make a mental kind of calculation that was kind of like, well, you know, I'm not...
	Happy in this relationship.
	There's this person who I profess to love and all that.
	And I thought to myself, well, there's part of me that just kind of tried to justify it to myself and saying, well, you know, I don't know 100% if she has been fully just like faithful in all of this as well.
	And anyway, if I I can offer any advice to your listeners.
	Don't go down this track because for the brief bit of whatever relief or whatever, it just eats away at you.
	And it still does to this day.
	This person that I said that I loved.
	And did you cheat?
	Was it an emotional affair or a full-on sexual affair?
	Or how did that work? It was a bit emotional and sexual.
	It was someone who...
	With someone who I really actually respected and thought was...
	I knew this person.
	I won't maybe say how, but it was sexual as well.
	It was a few times and then...
	I never spoke to my ex about that.
	I'm sorry, this person that you respected, who had sex with you a number of times, did she know that you were in a committed and monogamous relationship?
	Yes, Stefan. Okay, dude, your language is completely baffling to me.
	I don't know if you're consciously trying to sell me or give me a snow job or con me or something like that.
	I don't know. But the language is completely baffling.
	Because, you know, somebody who's worthy of respect doesn't have sex with a guy in a committed monogamous relationship.
	So I'm not sure what kind of...
	Do you think that you're dealing with a 12-year-old?
	I don't mean to say I'm negative, and I'm just genuinely baffled.
	Like, you know, I'm a pretty smart guy, and I'm sort of a moralist and all that.
	I'm not trying to pull over your eyes or anything.
	I'm clearly a...
	No, no, no.
	Hang on.
	Now you're just giving me the faults, you know, like, I'm sorry.
	But the question is, like, are you talking to me or to you?
	That's the big question I always have when I'm listening to people.
	Are you talking to me or to you?
	Because you can't sit there and say, well, first of all, I mean, okay, let's start with this before we get into that.
	Okay, so you say you love, you love, you love this woman, right?
	She's a bully. She's a liar.
	She's cheating. Now, you say, ah, but she's just meeting with an ex.
	No, that's cheating. It's cheating.
	If you're done with an ex, they're an ex, right?
	You don't meet up with exes.
	You don't. You just don't do it.
	You don't do it. Because it's an insult to your current partner, right?
	And she lied about it.
	And if you feel like the big fault is you checking her Facebook, well, you suspect she was lying and you found out she was lying.
	So your fault, you know, it's like if you, it would be like, to take a silly example, right?
	It would be like the house next door has a terrible smell coming from it and you finally end up, you know, opening the window and going in and you find a dead body and the police come, ignore the dead body and arrest you for breaking and entering.
	Yeah. So forget the, oh, I checked on her Facebook, blah, blah, blah, because, you know, you had the instinct that she wasn't trustworthy, and it turned out she was not trustworthy.
	So she's rigid, she's a bully, she's a liar, she's a cheat, and the only plus that I can hear is she was good in bed, right?
	Now, fuck that, right?
	That's a shitty reason to be obsessed with someone.
	But if you're draping all these virtues, like if she was just great in bed and she was hot, okay, like, I'm a man, I understand where you're coming from.
	But let's not pretend that pornography is ours, right?
	Let's not pretend that lust and hotness and good orgasms is anything to do with a quality person that you love.
	You're just getting your rocks off and, you know, she's wild, she's freaky, she's kinky, I don't know, whatever physical attribute or habits or practices you like.
	She did, right?
	And so if it was a lust-based relationship, look, again, lust is great.
	Lust is wonderful. Lust is a beautiful thing in life.
	We're all alive because of lust.
	So I have no criticism of lust.
	I think it's wonderful. If you can combine lust with virtue, man, you're in paradise.
	But tell me all the things that you loved about her, right?
	And again, you know who you're talking to.
	You're a long-term listener. Love is our involuntary response to virtue, if we're virtuous.
	Now, you're cheating on her, so your virtue is, you know, not super high.
	And so tell me the moral qualities, the qualities of character that she had that evokes this deep love within you.
	You're hitting me with hard questions, Stefania.
	No, no, I'm not.
	Here's the thing. No, no, no, hang on.
	You told me you loved her.
	So I'm not hitting you with hard questions out of nowhere.
	Yeah, sure. Right?
	I mean, if you say, dude, I can walk on water, what am I going to say?
	I'm an empiricist, so show me walking on water.
	Sure. So if you say you love her, and I know that love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous...
	Then I'm going to say, okay, well then you must possess virtues.
	She must possess virtues.
	So if you love her and all you've told me about are things that are not virtuous about her, then there must be all these wonderful virtues to make up for these significant deficiencies.
	Right? So what were her moral qualities of character that you found so admirable that it brought great love within you?
	Okay, so first and foremost, I probably have to put myself in the category of...
	I'm loving her primarily for all the external stuff that we would maybe categorize as lust.
	Oh my god, you're doing it again.
	I'm sorry. This is one of the less complicated calls, which is good.
	So you said you loved her for her looks.
	Yeah, and how I felt with her.
	Okay, you loved her for her looks.
	Now, I said, now you can disagree with me about love, right?
	Love is our response to virtue of a virtuous, right?
	Okay, so that's love.
	Then you just said, but I loved her for her looks.
	Now, a looks, a category of virtue?
	No, no, I know. Right, but you just tried to, you know, I thought we had kind of agreed.
	If you want to disagree on the definition, but if I say love is our response to virtue and you seem to agree with it and then you say I loved her for her looks.
	Now, looks can be a subcategory of self-respect, right?
	I mean, if someone takes care of their appearance, you know, they exercise, they take care of their skin, they get their teeth cleaned.
	She did that, actually, yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay.
	So, looks or...
	A presentation. They can be a subset of self-respect.
	But they're not primary virtues in and of themselves.
	Virtues are things that, if you do them, you can't be immoral, right?
	So if you have a virtue called courage, that means you can't be a coward.
	If you have a virtue called integrity, then you can't have the vice called a lack of integrity.
	If you have a virtue called honesty, you can't have the vice of lying.
	But the reason it's a subset, it's like an APA, a subset of aesthetics, aesthetically preferable actions.
	So taking care of your appearance, well, prostitutes take care of their appearance.
	You could have somebody who's a serial killer who takes care of his appearance.
	Ted Bundy was fairly well-groomed.
	And so, if you can have these, quote, qualities of character, but you could also be an evil thing, an evil guy, then, right, so you can't love her for her looks.
	Now, if somebody has moral qualities, but is, like, wretched in taking care of their appearance, well, that would indicate a certain lack of self-respect and so on.
	And so, you could have questions about that, and you could love them, but it would be a hiccup about the appearance.
	And so, if you say, I loved her for her looks, then I would have to say, that's impossible.
	Now, if somebody has moral qualities, and you love them for that, and they also take care of their looks, that's a bonus, right?
	You can have a cake without icing, but you can't have a cake that is only icing.
	You can have a cake with icing, but you can't have a cake with only icing because then it's just a pile of icing.
	So forget about the looks, right?
	Because that's not something you can love someone for.
	You can appreciate it if they already have moral qualities.
	What were the moral virtues that she exhibited that you loved her for?
	I think she was...
	Her independence is something that I... Admired.
	In terms of, like, the sort of strength of character, although...
	Okay, so tell me what you mean by independence?
	Yeah. Well, I suppose all the things that also went on to make my life a bit of a nightmare.
	There was a certain...
	I suppose maybe I felt like I didn't have to carry both of us, yeah?
	You know, like if you're with someone who's completely dependent on you and then you have to make all the decisions or you have to do this or this or this.
	She knew or knows her own mind.
	And of course that sometimes wasn't a good thing, yeah?
	But it was also a good thing.
	Yeah. Sorry, still trying to understand.
	I mean, a serial killer knows his own mind.
	He knows he wants to kill people.
	So again, if you're going to say, well, she was not, like there's a category called codependence where the person has no independence of thought and only seeks for approval, and that usually comes with significant resentment and blowback over time.
	Okay, so saying that somebody does not have one particular vice does not make them virtuous.
	Right? If you were to say, well, she's virtuous because, man, she never stole a car.
	Okay, so she's not a car thief.
	That doesn't make her virtuous, right?
	There's lots of people who are evil, and I'm not calling her evil, right?
	I'm just saying that, you know, to clarify the categories, right?
	But lots of people who are evil who've never stolen a car, right?
	My mom never stole a car.
	So... If you say, well, she didn't have this one terrible psychological problem, that doesn't make her virtuous.
	But again, I'm happy to hear the arguments and the categories, but so far, no luck.
	And just before I try again, I just want to say, and this was part of the reason I asked for us to speak, because this definition of love, if you're virtuous, which there's a question mark over me, I must be honest, and It's your involuntary response to your virtues.
	So this girlfriend that I have right now, she, I believe, has virtues that I can point to, and I really trust her.
	In terms of this whole thing of the Facebook thing, I don't and wouldn't do it with my current girlfriend.
	So... This is why I have a bit of a question.
	All right. So this is what's called a squid fog, right?
	So I asked you a pretty clear question.
	Sorry. Right? No, no, it's fine.
	Listen, it's perfectly understandable.
	I say this with great sympathy, right?
	So I gave you a very clear question, and you've given me a bunch of non-answers, which is fine.
	I mean, maybe you think you're answering well.
	And then I give you another clear question, and now you're waffling on about your current girlfriend and your own moral status.
	Okay. Right? So you're like, you know, like a squid ejecting ink in the water.
	You're just trying to cloud the water.
	So let's go back and tell me the virtues that your ex-girlfriend possessed that caused you to love her.
	She's hardworking, like...
	Like, really hardworking. Um...
	Not a virtue.
	A virtue. No.
	No, I mean, Hitler's very hardworking.
	Right? Lots of very hard-working people do enormous evils in the world.
	It's morally neutral. And again, it can be good.
	But, you know, it's like saying, well, she cut people open.
	That's morally neutral, right?
	Because if she's a surgeon, she's probably doing some good stuff.
	If she's a muggler and stabbing people, then she's not, right?
	I said she would.
	Yeah, sorry, go ahead. Maybe generous with things like gifts and all that sort of stuff.
	I think this was her, if you've ever heard that, Five Love Languages book.
	It's maybe one of hers or something.
	Okay, so she had generosity when it came to gifts.
	That's nice. That's nice.
	Now, when you say she was hardworking, did she work hard to improve your relationship, right?
	Because you had things that you wanted her to do, right?
	So she wanted you to do certain things like be more tidy or whatever, and you wanted certain things like...
	Tell me the truth and don't bully me and don't threaten to end the relationship when you don't get what you want.
	You know, things that you had.
	So if she's hardworking, then she should be hardworking to keep the relationship going in a positive manner that's beneficial to you, you know, obviously without compromising her own values.
	So was she hardworking in fixing things within your relationship?
	Maybe from the perspective of us doing things together.
	So she was definitely the initiator, the planner.
	Again, being...
	Yeah, so she would plan things for us to do, like over the weekend.
	I'm not talking about activities.
	I mean, you go on a cruise ship, there are activity planners.
	It doesn't make them girlfriends, right?
	I'm talking about you expressed preferences in the relationship.
	You wanted her to do things differently, right?
	And did she work hard to try and accommodate that, and did she work hard, if she had resistance to it, to overcome that resistance and provide what you legitimately asked for?
	I don't think so. When you were in trouble, did she say, oh, you know, I'm reading these books on relationships, I've booked us an appointment with a couples counselor, and I'm really going to work hard and diligently to try and ensure that we have a good relationship?
	We did have one session with a therapist, because her therapist advertised herself as speaking English, but actually she didn't.
	So that was like the one and only time.
	And it was kind of embarrassing for her to open up to a stranger, and then actually the stranger couldn't really say very much to me, so it was a bit of false advertising.
	We unfortunately didn't continue that.
	Okay. Did she read any books?
	Did she take any online questionnaires about how to improve relationship?
	Did she take any courses on how to improve communication?
	I mean, you said she's hardworking, right?
	You were in this relationship for years.
	Was she hardworking at maintaining the relationship?
	Those other things? No.
	To my knowledge, not.
	Right. So, she was lazy.
	Now, maybe you were too, but we're just talking about her at the moment, right?
	Because if your relationship isn't going well, then you need to fix it, right?
	I mean, and it's a funny thing.
	I don't really understand this about people as a whole, but it seems to be quite a common phenomenon, which is...
	If your job is in trouble, right?
	Let's say you're just not meeting your deliverables or you're not producing what you need to produce or the clients don't like you or something's going bad, right, with your job.
	Most people, they get kind of freaked out about it and they will take extra training, they'll work weekends, they'll really put in extra hours to try and turn it around and not get fired, right?
	And yet, when a relationship, which is much more important than a job, you know, jobs come and go.
	Even careers come and go.
	But your relationship, if it works out, I mean, you're set for life.
	You have a companion.
	Through life. I mean, that's much more important than some job, right?
	Can you imagine like you're on your deathbed and you call up some guy who was your manager when you were 30 and you're like, dude, I'm dying.
	You got to come and visit me.
	What's he going to say, right?
	I don't know what, who? I don't remember you.
	No, but you have a love relationship, a monogamous love relationship.
	I mean, you're set for life.
	It's a beautiful thing. And yet, so people are much more worried about losing their jobs than losing their relationships in terms of the hard work that they're willing to put in.
	And when you say she's hardworking, I understand that she understands and appreciates the value of hard work.
	In which case, you would say, if relationships are more important than a job, which they are, and she understands the value and virtue of hard work, then she should put hard work into her relationship to make it work, right?
	But she didn't, right?
	Not that I could...
	Is it fair to say she doesn't have a single virtue that you can easily identify that would cause you to love her?
	By the virtues that we've discussed, perhaps not.
	No, listen, I'm happy if there are other virtues that we haven't discussed.
	I mean, it's not like we went through an exhaustive list.
	I'm certainly happy to hear. Um...
	Yeah, I don't think I'll be able to paint any ones which do a great...
	I think perhaps not.
	I know she has good qualities of character and things that I respected and admired and all these kinds of things.
	Then tell me! It was...
	You know, kindness in terms of like, you know, driving me to work at a time when I didn't and actually still don't have a car, you know, like every morning, that sort of stuff.
	Making sure that my birthday party was good and I had my friends around and there was a cake that she made for me and these types of things.
	So that's thoughtful.
	Yeah, that's thoughtful. That's kind.
	Now, hang on though.
	If somebody beats a dog but also feeds them treats, which does the dog remember more?
	Yeah, the beads. Right.
	So if her thoughtfulness to you in the smaller matters is the opposite of her lack of consideration towards you in the larger matters, such as threatening you with the end of the relationship, bullying you if you don't do what she wants...
	In terms of moral qualities, which do you think ends up being more important?
	Yeah, the negative ones, yeah.
	So again, thoughtfulness is a category.
	If she was generally thoughtful, I would absolutely give that to her as a virtue and a value in a relationship.
	If, however, she's thoughtful on occasion to the smaller things, but the opposite of that in the larger and more important things, I can't give her the virtue, if that makes sense.
	It would be almost like, well, my girlfriend has the virtue of honesty because whenever the waiter asks, what do you want to eat?
	She honestly tells him.
	But then she lies to me about everything else.
	I mean, again, that's an extreme example, but just to sort of try and make the case.
	So again, if there's a virtue that she practices consistently, and look, being nice, being thoughtful, that matters, that's important, but it needs to be consistent.
	Otherwise, it's what you call camouflage, right?
	Otherwise, it's I'm being nice to you so that I can be nasty to you and you'll be more confused and won't see it so obviously.
	Or she might have the best of intentions with regards to being nice to you, but then ends up not being nice to you for reasons we can only speculate on.
	But she's responsible, right?
	So if she understands the virtue of thoughtfulness, of being nice to you, then we can't forgive her at all.
	For when she's not nice to you, because she understands that virtue and she practices it with regard to your birthday and driving you to work and these others.
	So she understands that virtue, so then she's responsible for it in the big context, right?
	If somebody genuinely believes, oh, you just yell at people in relationships, you bully them, and you do that all the time, then we can give them some understanding or forgiveness almost if they just don't know any better, right?
	But if she knows the value of thoughtfulness, but then does the opposite at other times, then she's all the more responsible, if that makes sense.
	And of course, if somebody was just mean to you the whole time, I mean, unless they were unbelievably hot, I guess, if they were just mean to you the whole time, you wouldn't get together with them at all, right?
	So the fact that they're nice to you sometimes is part of the trap, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that it might have...
	Happened a lot more, like in the first two years, something like that.
	I'm sorry, what happened a lot more?
	Oh, sorry, the acts of kindness and this kind of...
	Oh, yeah. Listen, most people, they don't go into relationships saying, I can't wait to destroy this other person's personality or I can't wait to be mean or I can't wait to cheat.
	I mean, people go into relationships generally with pretty good intentions.
	And then when things start to go badly, they just double down on whatever they're doing.
	So, yeah, I'm sure early on she was probably pretty nice and then things started to go badly and you guys couldn't pull out of the descending spiral and all that.
	Yeah. So yeah, I'm down with all of that.
	That makes perfect sense to me.
	Okay, so again, I'm not trying to nitpick at her, but she doesn't have loyalty, right?
	Because she lies to you about seeing the ex.
	So she doesn't have loyalty. And not only does she not have – now, again, we can all be tempted.
	We can make mistakes. That's a pretty big one.
	But if you find her out and then she accepts full responsibility and tries to figure out what's going on, that's one thing.
	But if she then blames you, it's like, well, I had to hide it from you because you're so jealous.
	It's like, well, no, you lied to me.
	Don't blame me for that.
	So the fact that she's not taking any responsibility for lying to you and in fact blames you for her own bad behavior.
	So she doesn't have loyalty.
	She doesn't have honesty. She doesn't have integrity.
	And again, I want to be clear.
	It's not because she made one or two or five or ten bad decisions.
	Those things happen.
	It's how you handle it afterwards.
	So we don't have a standard of virtue called perfection.
	It's impossible. That's platonic.
	Jesus is perfect.
	We're not. So we don't have a standard of morality called perfection.
	We have a standard of morality called perfection.
	Integrity is not you do everything with perfect integrity all the time.
	Integrity is you aim for it, you'll miss.
	Integrity is how you handle it when you miss.
	Right? So I've made mistakes in the show and I have a whole series of shows called I Was Wrong About...
	If new evidence comes along that contradicts prior positions, I will acknowledge it and I will...
	Change my position and I will repudiate earlier positions.
	So perfect is how you handle imperfection.
	It's not being perfect, if that makes sense.
	So it's not that, you know, because people would say, oh, she was in a three-year relationship with the guy and she, you know, she had one moment of weakness with an ex and blah, blah, blah, blah.
	It's like, yeah, okay, whatever.
	That can happen, I suppose.
	But But it's how she handles that.
	Does she say, you know what?
	Thank you. You pulled me out of a really bad temptation, and we have to sit down and figure out together, without me blaming you for anything, we have to sit down together and figure out what's going on in our relationship, that I was tempted by this outside, and so on, right?
	And it may come down to, listen, we've known each other for a couple of years, and there doesn't seem to be any marriage proposal in the works, so unfortunately I'm just finding myself looking outside, because my clock's ticking, and it could be any number of things like that.
	So, the reason I would say she doesn't have integrity is that, you know, she lied about something, she was caught about it, and then she turned around and blamed you.
	Now, even that doesn't mean that she doesn't have integrity.
	Because what could happen is she could wake up the next day and she could say, oh, man, you know, I've really been thinking about how I handled this mess yesterday.
	I'm so sorry. I mean, that's way out of line with my values and my virtues.
	You know, the phrase, I'm sorry, was not Something I heard much in that relationship.
	That was a really hard thing because the years afterwards, after that relationship, I would often feel very angry and bitter about the whole experience because here was someone who, maybe you and I, Stefan, will kind of disagree on the use of the word love, but here, I'll just use it as a placeholder maybe, but My feelings for her.
	And yet, of course, I was and I listened to the show and you talk about virtues and I'm like, what is it that I actually...
	I've had that same question in my head.
	What is it that I love about this person?
	And even my friend asked me something similar and it's like, Yeah, I can't really answer that question so easily.
	There was this unwillingness to ever say that she was wrong about anything.
	That was probably the thing that made me pull out of that relationship in the end.
	Because I thought to myself, hey, if you win 95% of the time, but I still win that 5% of the time when we both know I'm right, Maybe we can work on that.
	Maybe we can make it a bit closer to maybe not 50-50, but something that's approaching a partnership.
	But when one person is always right about everything, it really stifles the other person.
	And I felt absolutely worthless.
	Well, it erases the other person.
	It doesn't just stifle them. It erases them.
	If you're always wrong, then you can't ever have an opinion that differs from her, which means you're stuck in a narcissistic flytrap, like a Venus flytrap, but with a narcissist as the plant.
	Okay, so other than pretty and good in bed, I can't see a single redeeming quality.
	I know, and this is what, I suppose, prompted me to write this message.
	I've thought about it for the last few years, to be honest, writing into your program, but right now, after two years in this current relationship with someone who does have, I believe, virtues, or I'll try my best to name them, of course, and I think to myself, here's a person who could be a good mother, but we're kind of You're incompatible in some things.
	You don't share so many interests.
	I'm much more of a...
	Okay, we're not getting to the current relationship yet, if that's all right.
	That's fine. No, we have another relationship we have to get to before we get to the current relationship, but it isn't about your ex.
	All right. So, how pretty was your mom?
	I don't think particularly so.
	Like, Maybe we're talking about a 10 scale, maybe 7, something like that.
	I think she looks fairly normal.
	And how attractive physically was your dad?
	I think he's okay.
	Maybe also 7.
	He's not particularly tall.
	But, yeah.
	Teeth are a little bit funny.
	But... Quite a good character and sort of...
	He's still...
	Oh, no man. Quite a good character.
	Okay. You're giving me conclusions without any evidence, which means I have to peel back and get the evidence.
	Okay, so... No, that's totally fine.
	That's totally fine. So why did your father marry your mother and why did your mother marry your father?
	This isn't anything cynical.
	It could be wonderful reasons, but I'm just curious.
	No, this... I... I suppose...
	Well, he said that he...
	I didn't really get much of an explanation apart from, you know, that they loved each other.
	I'm not even sure if they've ever given me a full, let's say, reason.
	But I think my dad said something like, I knew that she was the one something like this, and that's why when she was out, she actually worked out in a foreign country at some point, and then he flew out and had this kind of Romantic gesture to sort of, you know, win her over, even though he was going to wait, like, I think something like a year or something like that before she ever came back or something.
	But I didn't really get much of an explanation.
	And they get along relatively well.
	They have a good marriage. Yeah, that's totally like they're married.
	I don't think they'll I'm almost certain that they will never Get divorced.
	I talk to them regularly.
	They're always laughing and getting a lot...
	I mean, there's a little bit of...
	You know, my mum teases my dad a little bit about these things, and he teases her, and it's really a healthy relationship from what I can see.
	So I'm very fortunate.
	Okay, so when you were growing up, did your dad warn you about the dangers of female beauty...
	I can't remember any instances like that.
	Did he give you warning signs to look for in picking potential partners?
	No, no.
	His approach was very much hands-off.
	It's like you learn things yourself and you figure things out yourself.
	Did they know that you were in a relationship which was fairly destructive?
	Yeah, I talk to my family quite often and So, because I live in another country, we would talk over Skype or whatever.
	And I'd say, you know, things are going like this or things are going like that.
	I mean, obviously, being their son, I would leave out certain aspects of things.
	But they would get an overall impression that, okay, things were going down a little bit.
	And I remember one... Oh, your ex back.
	So she met your parents? Yeah, she met them on at least two occasions and some other family members of mine.
	And I remember telling my parents that, hey, things are not going so well between me and my ex.
	Could you maybe talk to her a little bit about just when I'm somewhere else sometimes, just How things are going and try to kind of essentially like I tried to I asked them to try to enlist them almost to help be my cheerleaders because you know she could maybe see that my parents had quite what looks like a healthy strong relationship whereas her own parents are kind of like they're still together but I don't think they It's very healthy or they don't particularly like each other or whatever and support each other.
	So I wanted her to kind of be in my, let's say, environment a bit.
	And so she could see and hear from them that actually, you know, it's worth sometimes compromising.
	That was my hope. But I remember overhearing part of the conversation.
	And sadly, it was...
	My ex sort of talked a bit about...
	She didn't badmouth me horribly, but it was just kind of saying, he's a bit like, he does this or he does this.
	Let's say stuff around the house or whatever.
	And instead of, let's say, kind of coming to my aid or support or anything like this, my mother just kind of sat back and said, oh, no, that's not pretty good.
	That's not – and she was kind of like the – Your mother sided?
	Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, maybe I wasn't so direct in asking.
	No, no, come on. You side with family, particularly if there's an outsider.
	I mean, this is my rule. My rule is, and again, I'm not saying this is some universal thing, but my rule is...
	If there's any conflict between an outsider and my family, I side with my family.
	Now, later, maybe we'll have a review and maybe there'll be some, you know, whatever.
	But no, you always close ranks in public, right?
	Don't you? I mean, it's always like, how on earth could this stranger woman be more important than her relationship with her own son that she bore and raised?
	It's probably the biggest, let's say, disappointment I've ever had with my parents was just that moment because I understand where...
	I don't know where it comes from, to some degree, because my parents are these types of people who want to be outwardly, let's say, nice or friendly.
	So maybe in their way of thinking, it's like it wouldn't be polite to kind of disagree with this other person who's telling, who's kind of, let's say, opening her heart a little bit about the relationship to them.
	But to me, it was like, yeah, but you missed an opportunity to really open her eyes to what's going on for me.
	I don't know, especially considering how much this person meant to me, maybe still means to me, I don't know.
	I felt like it was a missed opportunity.
	Was your father involved in that convo?
	I think he was there, you know.
	He stayed very quiet himself, and I think my mum was the active listener.
	So, yeah, I didn't hear much from his end.
	I just remember that bit.
	Very strongly that there was no kind of pushback and saying, well, have you talked to him about this, this, this, or have you tried, you know, some other kind of suggestions, yeah, but nothing.
	And that was disappointing.
	Can you remember other times where you felt a lack of support or loyalty from your parents?
	Not any things that kind of really come to mind.
	All right.
	Can you think of times when your parents showed you significant loyalty or support in the face of opposition?
	No, I think if there are, let's say, Christmas discussions and anything turns to politics.
	And if I tried to.
	I don't know if it's the phrase.
	Something about a hornet's nest or something?
	Like you kind of stir or maybe stir the pot a little bit.
	You'd say something mildly controversial.
	It's like, you know, everyone's left to kind of defend their own position sort of thing.
	Which I understand if I'm an adult.
	Did you face any bullying or anything like that as a child or were there times where you required your parents loyalty or support in that sort of situation or environment?
	I would say there were very short periods where I might have someone very...
	It was like maybe for a day or two or maybe a couple of weeks where there was like someone nasty at school or something like that.
	But I don't think I ever went to my parents with that because I just thought, you know, it will kind of...
	Okay. Can you think of a time when you had an issue as a child that you went to your parents for advice or support or feedback?
	Yeah. Not really.
	Okay, who raised you?
	No, seriously, this is a serious question.
	Who raised you? I mean, who gave you coaching and guidance?
	And I mean, were you just like a wolf child?
	You had to invent everything on your own?
	It's a serious question.
	It's a bit of a boomer phenomenon, which is like, yeah, good luck, kids.
	We're not going to give you any feedback.
	We're going to hand you over to the kindergarten teacher.
	And everyone after that is going to give you moral instruction or probably amoral instruction.
	So who raised you?
	How did you figure out what to do in life?
	How did you figure out your values?
	Who raised you as a kid?
	I actually didn't. You know, we went to church a lot, so there was an aspect of whatever the priest or vicar says that you should get some kind of moral instruction from that.
	To me, they set a good example by being generally...
	You know, very decent to each other.
	Sometimes they'd argue a little bit.
	No, but that didn't take. No, that didn't.
	That example didn't take because you ended up...
	I don't want to call the relationship abusive, but certainly there was a destructive element to it, right?
	Yeah, no, there is, yeah.
	Okay. So that example didn't take?
	Yeah, as I said before, like, my dad was very much of the school.
	It's like you kind of learn yourself.
	It wasn't something he said, but it was something that I just, when I look back on...
	I didn't really go to him for advice about any things.
	Well, anything that you can really think of.
	I'm sure some inconsequential things.
	So, is his perspective that children don't need any instruction?
	Because then clearly he didn't send you to school, right?
	And clearly he didn't take you to church because school is where you get instruction, right?
	And church is where you get instruction.
	So I'm a little baffled because obviously you went to school and you went to church.
	I'm a little baffled about your father's philosophy of children don't need to be taught anything if he sends you to school and church.
	I mean, I don't think he ever spelt out his policy like verbally or anything like that, but yeah, it's...
	Well, it's completely contradictory.
	He's saying, my son needs instruction from every single person in the world except me.
	What the fuck?
	I don't understand.
	Genuinely baffled, right?
	I think the one time that stands out to me is some kind of, let's say, instruction.
	It's just, you know, when kids hit about 11 or 12 or something like this.
	And they pull out this sort of book that tells you about growing up.
	And my mum and dad sat me down and they talked me through those sorts of things.
	They have the cartoons and they talk about how your voice will get deeper.
	Okay, so there was a little bit of sex education, but that's basically biological, right?
	But it kind of stopped it.
	There was no continuance to actual sex or anything like that.
	Right. Okay. So they gave you the birds and the bees talk.
	Okay. That's a good cozy half hour of parenting.
	I don't even think they kind of talked about where, you know, babies came from.
	You know, it's like I just learned it from school and people making a rather rude hand gesture and they're like, oh, that's sex.
	Okay. And that was really it.
	And actually maybe an example to underline just how Let's say without any knowledge I was.
	It was only later into my adult life that I needed a surgical procedure, which I was able to get on my dad's health insurance through his company or something like that.
	But yeah, I really didn't know that what I had wasn't working in certain ways.
	So it was like... Because I just, I didn't really know much about, you know, anatomy, especially during sex and all this little stuff.
	So, yeah, I was really kind of in the dark about a lot of things.
	And what did your dad do for a living?
	He was involved in insurance.
	Was he a salesman? I think we could say that.
	There's lots of, like, wining and dining clients and things like this.
	Wasn't that interesting? Do you think that he...
	I mean, insurance can be quite complicated, right?
	A lot of variables, a lot of math.
	Do you think that he educated his clients on different types of insurance, different rates of insurance, different possibilities of coverage?
	I sure hope so, yeah.
	Yeah. So isn't that interesting?
	So strangers with money, they need instruction.
	But my own son, fuck it, doesn't need anything.
	I absolutely knew for a fact that your father was in some sort of educational capacity.
	I knew this. This is like almost inevitable.
	Okay, so you need instruction.
	He's good at giving instruction because, again, insurance sales is quite complicated.
	And you need instruction.
	He's good at instructing, but he won't instruct you.
	Why? I've often said to myself that if I ever had kids, I would want to give them advice, like really properly father.
	Because if there were one thing that I didn't, let's say, So much respect about my father, as much as I love him, but it was that.
	It was the fact that it was just like, all right, kids, off you go.
	And I was conscious of this already, but it's definitely true.
	Well, I hope that you, I mean, the reason I'm talking about all of this is I hope you can give yourself some forgiveness for making mistakes in your life because you were untutored.
	Your father did not teach you, I mean, how to live, how to make decisions, what to do, how to be a good person, what morality was, what health in a relationship was.
	He didn't give you any instructions.
	You say, oh, well, he gave me some examples.
	Okay. So let me ask you this.
	What happened after your ex talked to your mom and your dad was around and your mom sided with your ex?
	What happened? Did you talk to them about this?
	Did you say, hey, hey, what the hell was that?
	I did. I did. I don't remember exactly how much long...
	How much later it was, but I... How did they respond to that?
	My mother was quite quiet, and she didn't really say...
	She might have apologized.
	Oh, I think you'd remember that.
	I think you'd remember that for sure.
	Wait, so are you saying that there were two important women in your life who couldn't apologize?
	No, that can't be right.
	That's just going to be some bizarre coincidence, really.
	My mother's generally...
	I think...
	No, I need to be fed to her.
	She does apologize for things.
	She absolutely let me down at that time, and I still struggle, like, thinking about it, because it was like, you know...
	Well, okay, so I'm happy to hear, again, empiricism is more than my theory, so can you give me an example of when your mother apologized for something?
	I mean, something important, or like, oh, I'm sorry I was late, or something.
	Oh, uh, something important.
	Um, I think it was usually me who screwed up in the house with various things.
	Something important. Um...
	It's hard to...
	Sorry about this, Stefan, because I'm trying to find you good examples for things.
	Okay, let me give you an example from my life, right, just so you can see the place that I'm coming from.
	So, not too long ago, my daughter missed a deliverable.
	She had something that she had to do by a certain time, and she missed it, right?
	And we had at least an hour, no, probably about closer to a two-hour conversation over the course of the next couple of days about this, right?
	And my perspective was that this is a family issue, right?
	Because she's a kid, right? So if she misses a deadline that we're aware of as parents, then it's a family issue.
	It's not all on her.
	It's not all on me. It's not all on her mom.
	It's a family issue. And, you know, her point, which is perfectly fair, is like it was not an important deadline.
	And I said, you're absolutely correct.
	It was not an important deadline.
	But you don't want to wait till important deadlines to understand that it's good to hit your deadlines, right?
	So I said, you know, do you know how the nurses learn to give injections?
	She didn't. And I said, well, nurses learn to give injections on oranges.
	Now, if the nurse, I don't know, sticks the needle all the way through the orange or something ridiculous, right, or carves her name in it, and then says, well, the orange isn't important, it's like, well, yes, the orange is not important, but you don't want to be making mistakes on a real-life human being.
	So, it's the practice that matters, right?
	And so, yeah, we had a long conversation and I talked about my own history with deadlines and how you deal with deadlines for things that you really don't want to do, right?
	So, yeah, good long chat.
	And my major point was I didn't want her to think that it was completely unimportant, but at the same time, I didn't want her to think that it was some big major thing.
	But the principle is important.
	And then we talked about How she feels if we order food and it comes cold, right?
	It's like, okay, so they missed their deadline.
	The deadline is to bring your food at the right temperature, right?
	And if you order ducks and it takes forever for them to come, whatever, right?
	So when we're on the receiving end of deadlines, we want things to be done, right?
	When we go to a dental appointment, we don't want to sit there and wait for four hours, right?
	Because they're running late or something, right?
	So deadlines do matter, and the fact that this was not a particularly important deadline is not as important as that we've got to get the hang of understanding deadlines, right?
	So, I mean, that's a long conversation, and it was actually quite an enjoyable conversation, but there's a lot of coaching in that, right?
	And, yeah, I don't think there was much in the way of coaching when I was younger.
	Okay, dude! Oh my god!
	You're so foggy!
	Okay, because I don't know, when people say, when you say, well, there wasn't much in the way of coaching, I have no idea what that means.
	Right? Does that mean only one day out of the week?
	Does that mean one day out of the month?
	Three times in 15 years?
	You see, it's so foggy, right?
	Right? Because I thought you said you couldn't really think of a time and your father had this unspoken philosophy of kids learn for themselves.
	And that you couldn't think of a time where you really got any coaching, which again, perfectly happy to revise.
	But then when you come back with this fogginess, well, there wasn't much coaching.
	I don't know what that means. So if I say to someone, have you ever stabbed anyone?
	And they say, well, gosh, no, of course not.
	And then they say, well, no, in the past, there wasn't much stabbing.
	It's like, okay, I don't know where we are now, right?
	Sure. I remember when I was about, I don't know, seven or eight, I had a A black friend.
	And we were friends for, I think, a year or so he was at my school.
	And I don't know exactly how it was, but at home I used the N-word.
	And I thought that it was like a made-up word that my friend and I had kind of come up with or something.
	Or maybe my friends already knew the word and he was using it.
	I don't recall exactly how it was.
	But it was certainly nothing to do with...
	Yeah, it wasn't derogatory, it wasn't racist, it wasn't hostile.
	Right, exactly. Pure kind of ignorance.
	And my dad was really annoyed at me using that at home, which I think was...
	Well, I'm sure he would have been even more annoyed at you using it in public.
	So he was negative towards the word, for sure.
	And he pulled me aside and he kind of said like...
	And he was really annoyed at me at first.
	And then he kind of explained...
	I think he talked about how, you know, black people in the past have been treated badly, slavery, this kind of stuff, and some heavy topics.
	And I remember the whole time being really a bit upset and saying like, Dad, like, okay, thank you for that.
	But like, I wasn't, this was just a made up word that we came up with.
	So I'm not sure if you ever believed me exactly.
	But That was kind of one time where I really remember getting a real talking to about...
	Well, no, okay. And again, I'm not trying to push back or sound negative about every example you're giving, and I apologize for that.
	I'm really trying to be self-aware to do with that.
	Now, coaching where the parent will face negative consequences is not quite the same as coaching for your sake.
	So if you were to use that vile word in public, then people would look really negatively at your parents.
	So if the parent comes down on you, or let me not put it in a negative way, if your father gives you an explanatory lecture about a situation that if it were to happen, it would reflect very negatively on him, then that's not quite the same as coaching for the sake of you, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, I see that.
	I know I always went to my mother for things.
	She's a great listener, but I'm not sure...
	Because I would waffle on about my day or whatever else.
	I think even when I was 13, I... She's a great listener.
	I'm sorry. You gave me the example of, Mom, could you really help me out with my girlfriend?
	Right? Yeah. Because, you know, we're really in a tough place and she's really looking at me negatively.
	And then she just nods along and agrees with your girlfriend kind of putting you down.
	Well, maybe that's it. Maybe I'm missing the great listener part, but I'm again happy to be corrected, but...
	Maybe it's nodding along and agreeing then.
	Maybe that's what I should say instead.
	Well then, that's not being a great listener.
	That's just agreeing. Yeah.
	She would spend a lot of time...
	After school, she always asked me when she took me home when I was young and then later even as a teen, she would, let's say, listen to...
	And that's nice. Listen, it's great.
	Now, if you go to the doctor, right?
	Oh, I guess you did, right?
	You said you had issues, right?
	So you go to the doctor and your doctor is a great listener, right?
	And you say, oh, doc, you know, I'm having this issue and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	You know, maybe for 10, 15 minutes, which is unprecedented.
	The doctor just knocks at you and looks at you and nods and so on, right?
	And then... He says, okay, well, listen, it's been great chatting.
	Do let me know if you have any other issues, because my next patient is here.
	Yeah. Well, what's wrong with that, man?
	He's been a great listener. Yeah, yeah, not much help, though.
	Well, aren't you supposed to give me a cure or a prescription or something like that?
	Yeah. Parents aren't supposed to be listeners.
	I mean, you've got to listen. But you're a coach.
	Yeah. Maybe my mother subscribed to the same school as my dad did, which was like, okay, you can listen to stuff, but don't advise or something like this.
	Well, no, no, but this is the issue.
	The issue is I don't agree with it.
	It's called unparenting or unschooling, where you just don't give any coaching, any feedback.
	Okay. I don't agree with it, but at least be consistent.
	Right? Because if you say, again, this is back to the church and the school.
	Kids are going to be influenced by something.
	You put them in school, they'll be influenced by the teacher.
	You put them in church, they'll be influenced by the priest.
	In every situation, they'll be influenced by their peers, they'll get influenced by the internet, they'll get influenced by media, they'll get influenced by all this stuff, right?
	So kids are going to take their coaching one way or another.
	And your parents put you in a situation where you were being educated by strangers, or at least not family members, right?
	So I'm at a loss as to figure out, since they knew you needed education, and they put you in situations where you got coaching and feedback and instruction, why they would then say, well, kids got to figure things out for themselves.
	I do not understand this at all.
	And what I mean by that is that there's some reason, which I don't know about, maybe you don't know about, you probably have an idea, which is the hell were they doing or not doing and why?
	I wonder because maybe they thought that their example was enough to...
	But like you said before, it hasn't exactly...
	Well, first of all, you would want to check on that, right?
	So if I say, let's say I'm teaching tennis to my daughter, right?
	And I don't teach her anything, but I just play tennis reasonably well, but she doesn't get any better, then wouldn't I change what I'm doing?
	Yeah, maybe all of this relation stuff only happens because it happens.
	I'm sorry, if example is enough, why are you going to school and church?
	Because you would then just learn from life by going through it and getting examples from people.
	I think maybe from their perspective, at least as far as I was at school and high school or whatever, I... Always performed really well at school and these other things.
	I got good grades and all the rest of it.
	And as far as they could see, I didn't have problems with the law or other things like that.
	So maybe they thought that their approach was kind of working.
	Okay, so that's fine. So then they have an empirical feedback.
	This is the theory, right? They have an empirical feedback wherein they think that their example is working out really well, right?
	Mm-hmm. Okay.
	So then in your mid to late 20s, you end up in a multi-year, fairly destructive relationship, right?
	And, uh...
	I mean, that's fairly correct, right?
	Yeah. Okay. So if I think the example, if I'm a parent and I say, well, this kid doesn't need any examples, so it doesn't need any instruction, they'll just learn by osmosis, by seeing good relationships and blah, blah, blah, right?
	Okay. Now, because you're in your early 30s, they have now, let's say, 15 years now.
	I mean, maybe closer to 20, right?
	Because you should start talking to your kids about dating and so on when they're in their early teens.
	Doesn't mean they start dating, but, you know, you should talk about it.
	Because that's when they start to get interested in dating.
	Okay, so if you're in your early 30s, they have 20 years.
	They have 20 years of information, right?
	They have 20 years of information, of empirical, factual information about how your life is going.
	They have 20 years of evidence about their theories, right?
	Now, has it worked?
	No. You were in a bad relationship, or at least parts of it were bad, and you're now unable to commit to what could be a good relationship.
	So clearly, their theory didn't work, right?
	Is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah, in my case, yeah.
	Well, I'm not sure who, I mean, I'm not sure whose case it would be, right?
	Because, I mean, maybe we've got siblings, but we're just talking about you, right?
	Yeah, I've got a brother, he's happily married and got two kids, so.
	Okay, all right.
	So then we have three people in the family who believe that something could work or whatever, right?
	Let's just talk about your parents. We'll get your brother in a sec.
	So your parents have, let's give them the generosity, right, and say it's only 10 years of data, right?
	Sure. So they have 10 years of data that their theory didn't work.
	That they made a foundational error in their parenting, right?
	10 years of data.
	10 years.
	Right? 3,650 days.
	That's a lot of days. You do a lot in 10 years.
	That's more than half the length of my entire show.
	So, your parents have a theory, and they really rolled the dice, because most parents would say, yes, of course your children need feedback and instruction.
	So they took a totally hands-off approach, which was pretty radical, right?
	It's a pretty radical idea.
	And they seem to have done absolutely nothing to track the results.
	So I can tell you this, they don't have a fucking theory at all.
	They don't have any theory at all.
	Because if they had a theory, they'd tell you about it.
	If they had a theory, they would check the progress as it went along.
	If they had a theory, they would...
	If they had a theory about, well, if we don't give him any instruction, his life's going to go really well, then they would check in.
	And they would say, okay, this was our theory.
	How's it working out? And if it isn't working out, they would sit down with you and say, man, we tried this thing, but I clearly see it's not working.
	Let's see if we can sort it out, right?
	Instead, they just ignored the whole thing, right?
	And then they sided with your girlfriend.
	So there's no theory here.
	There's no theory. Yeah.
	I think as much as I love them and I... I think that they've just kind of, let's say, gone along, just gone with the flow of the river.
	I mean, in terms of...
	Okay, sorry, I'm using analogies where I should just say clearly, yeah.
	They just...
	Okay, so why didn't they give you any instruction?
	Not too sure why.
	I don't know if they...
	They got instruction from their parents.
	I don't think they've talked much about that.
	That doesn't matter.
	In fact, if they didn't get instruction from their parents, they're all the more responsible for giving instruction to their kids because they know exactly what's missing.
	I would have no excuse for being violent as a parent because I was raised by a violent parent.
	I know exactly how terrible it is.
	Because people, you know, I mean, you're not alone in this, of course.
	It's a universal impulse to excuse our parents for their childhoods.
	Whereas, to me, the exact opposite is true.
	That parents who had negative experiences as children are all the more responsible for not inflicting those negative experiences on their own children because they know exactly how destructive they are, right?
	I'm really not too sure why they – Why they went down that road or didn't take a more hands-on approach?
	I'm trying to think of some reasons.
	Can I give you one quick example about...
	No, no.
	If you want to tell me, I want to hear.
	So don't worry about that. Let me manage that.
	It was a couple of years ago or something when I went to a family...
	Let's just say I had too much to drink, as I've often had.
	This also happened in my last relationship, and I was just, let's just say, an embarrassment at weddings in general, which isn't too good.
	But this was for a very close family, and they took me aside the next morning and showed how concerned they were for the kind of state I was in and I had one little incident when I was a teenager where too much drink got me into a bit of trouble or they were worried they got a kind of late night call as well and I think they didn't really see how maybe my I wouldn't say I've got an unmanaged drinking problem,
	but I don't really see where the line is on an evening that's supposed to be a special night.
	All right, so let me put out a guess based upon what I've heard about your parents as to how they approach this.
	We're very concerned about you drinking too much.
	We want to do anything we can to help, but this behavior really does need to change, and this is what you did.
	And it's not great.
	And, you know, we really do want to help you deal with this issue.
	And, uh, but yeah, really, this has got to be, uh, got to be a high priority for, for fixing something like that.
	Um, it was very much, we're disappointed in you and this was bad.
	That was kind of, yeah.
	Okay. So, so, sorry, I don't mean to laugh because it's the last thing from funny.
	No, but, but okay.
	So, uh, did your ex ever take any responsibility for her bad behavior or did she blame you?
	To her, she never behaved badly.
	So did your parents ever take responsibility for bad parenting or did they just blame you?
	That's not what I'm thinking.
	Did they ever say, listen, we didn't really give you any instruction as parents?
	Oh, no, no, no. We didn't really give you any instruction with parents and that meant that you were really susceptible to peer pressure.
	And you probably had quite a bit of social anxiety because you weren't exactly sure how to live with people, how to socialize with people.
	And when you have a lot of peer pressure and some degree of social anxiety, then drinking is almost inevitable because drinking is a depressant and it calms down your social anxiety.
	So did they ever say, because we didn't give you any instruction on how to socialize, we didn't give you any moral instruction, we didn't coach you really at all as parents.
	So of course you fell in with the wrong crowd and ended up with a drinking problem and that's totally on us.
	Yeah, there was nothing like that.
	No, they just – they distanced themselves from the issue that they had contributed to and they just completely removed themselves from any influence they might have ever had on you as parents.
	And they're just disappointed in you like you're some total fucking stranger.
	Literally, this is like me writing a novel and then lecturing the novel for being deficient.
	I'm just – I like – The future of my novel, I'm so disappointed in you.
	You're not saying the right things.
	You're not doing the right things. You're not interesting enough.
	You're not compelling enough. The characterization is bad.
	The situations are unbelievable.
	You're just really disappointing me as a novel.
	I don't know what's wrong with you.
	I don't know where you went wrong.
	You have to do better.
	I'm embarrassed to be in your presence.
	You understand that would be the actions of an insane person, right?
	Yeah, it definitely doesn't make much sense.
	Yeah, so parents who abstract themselves from their children's issues and just become these stern lecturers or Old Testament disappointed gods or whatever, it's kind of crazy because nobody had a bigger influence over you than your parents.
	I mean, genetics aside, even just them being your parents, they're the greatest authorities you will ever have in this life.
	And so if you're doing things that are not working out well, then for them to completely abstract themselves and say, well, listen, you just have this weird problem that came out of nowhere.
	It has nothing to do with the first 20 years you spent with us, where we were the ultimate authorities over you.
	It's like you just got beamed into our house with problems, and now we're just trying to help you with these problems that we had absolutely nothing to do with.
	So you're in a situation where people who don't take any responsibility are extremely compelling to you.
	People who don't take any responsibility are extremely compelling to you.
	They fit, right?
	Because this is how you were shaped by your parents.
	If there's an issue, it's 100% you.
	Other people, hey man, they can be there to help, but they're just going to tell you that it's your issue.
	Dang. It's literally like these sort of cliched, I remember getting into a conflict with a listener many years ago about this, like these sort of cliched cruel cartoons or cruel, you know, the mafia guy, you know, beats up the victim, right?
	And then says, they throws a napkin and says, clean yourself up, man, you're a mess.
	It's like, you just punched my lights out, you knocked out half my teeth, I'm bleeding from my nose.
	You created this mess.
	But no, they're just like, come on, clean it.
	Have some self-respect. Clean yourself up.
	You're a mess. It's literally that.
	And this is used to portray a truly deranged sociopathic criminal.
	Of course, I'm not putting your parents in this category.
	I'm just talking about an extreme here where somebody creates a mess and then blames the person for being messy.
	Okay, let me give you another example. let me give you another example.
	Okay, yes, I know this is a tough one.
	Hang on, let me just take one more tiny run.
	Let's say that I raise my daughter in an airtight bubble, physically.
	Okay. Right, you know, like the people who have no immune systems, they actually have to live inside these clear tents, right?
	Every air is purified, they can't touch anything because any germ will kill them, right?
	So let's say I raise my daughter in this...
	Hyper antiseptic bubble, right?
	And then she goes out into the world.
	What's going to happen? She's going to come into contact with germs and...
	Yeah, she's going to be sick all the time, right?
	And now let's say I just give her a long lecture and say, listen, honey, you've got to be more careful out there.
	I don't know what sidewalks you're licking.
	I don't know what dogs you're mishandling.
	I don't know what's going on in the world.
	But you need some basic hygiene, man.
	You've got to wash your hands.
	You've got to open the windows.
	You've got to not be around people who are ill.
	I don't know what's going on, but you getting sick all the time is bad.
	And you've got to find a way to deal with this because it's really unacceptable behavior, right?
	Yeah. Would that be the actions of a crazy person?
	Yeah. Right.
	Right, so did you start drinking because of peer pressure?
	It could have been...
	I think, well, I think, yeah, a bit.
	I think it was also the culture growing up of this kind of laddish culture and it wasn't...
	Were your parents aware of this culture?
	Yeah. I think they weren't because when they had that kind of stern talk… Really?
	They don't notice that there's a pub on every corner?
	I was thinking of this sort of binge drinking one where people drink to the point of stumbling around and that sort of thing that sort of developed… Especially maybe after their time.
	But I think they would have been aware of it, just maybe didn't attribute it to something that I... Do you think there's any parent alive who is not aware of the fact that teenagers are tempted by alcohol?
	No. Okay.
	All right. So maybe they didn't know the full extent of this Lattish-Lattish culture, but they knew...
	That alcohol was going to be part of the environment a teenager is tempted by, right?
	Drugs, alcohol, sex, and danger, right?
	These are the big four things that teenagers need to be made aware of, right?
	And they all generally fall under the rubric of peer pressure.
	So, did your parents prepare you for...
	You being at a party and somebody offering you a drink?
	Or you being at a party and somebody offering you a joint?
	Or you being at a party and somebody saying, well, he's a little tipsy, but we can drive anyway?
	Or you being...
	Whatever, right?
	Did your parents prepare you and coach you on how to deal with these inevitable situations?
	Okay? So, again, my question is, what on earth were they doing?
	And... Unfortunately, you're used to not being cared for.
	I mean, it's really sad, really tragic, like in all desperate seriousness.
	I don't think you know what it is to be cared for.
	If you care for your children, you don't just send them out into the wolves of society with no preparation.
	If you don't prepare your children for dating quality people, your children will default to lust.
	They will default to looks.
	Of course. Because values are human.
	Looks and physical attractiveness and sex, that's all mammal, right?
	That's all the mammal stuff.
	And if we can't be fully human, then we descend to the mammal, right?
	So I don't think that you know at all what it's like to be cared for any more than I speak Japanese.
	Now, The reason I'm slowly coming in this direction is you had a woman who didn't care for you.
	I didn't mean she didn't have any caring for you or was completely indifferent to you, but she didn't care for you because she bullied you, and you can't care for someone and bully them.
	You just can't. So you had a girl who didn't care for you, And you're kind of half-obsessed with her, right?
	And now you have a girl who does seem to care for you, and you can't connect, right?
	And the reason for that is because your parents didn't care for you, and you had to normalize that.
	Because we all have to normalize what our parents do, otherwise we don't survive, right?
	So you had to normalize not being cared for.
	And you had to pretend that not being cared for was being cared for.
	So then when this girl comes along and she's hot and you're an untrained young mammal, right?
	As we all are at that age without training.
	So this hot girl comes along and she's good and bad and she's pretty and sexy and all that.
	Okay. So you're so used to not being cared for, you don't even notice that she doesn't care for you.
	And then a girl comes along, a woman comes along, who is helpful and responsible and productive and a good companion and a sensible...
	And you're like, in the abstract, I understand that she's good for me and she's a good person, but I just can't connect, right?
	Yeah. Well, that's why.
	Because you're not aware of how little your parents cared for you.
	And you think that's love and family and connection.
	And you're literally trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.
	Because you're saying, well, I could have a family with a woman who really cares for me, but my definition for family is we don't care for each other.
	So if this woman cares for me, but the definition of family is we don't care for each other, how on earth can I have a family?
	Because it's the opposite of a family.
	And this goes all the way down to your balls, frankly.
	It goes all the way down to your sex drive.
	It goes all the way down to all of that, right?
	Does that mean that if I'm aware of...
	Because if I'm aware of all the flaws of this X, in some ways I can't get around the programming.
	Because even if I'm aware...
	We've been talking about her bullying tendencies and this, that, and the other.
	And... Sorry, I mean in terms of her negative, maybe negative traits.
	Even if I'm aware of those things, it kind of doesn't, I can't reason my desire.
	It's not about your ex.
	Your current girlfriend and your ex-girlfriend are all about your parents.
	Tell me the evidence that your parents love you.
	Thank you.
	And again, I'm perfectly open.
	I know this sounds skeptical. I'm perfectly open to all of this, right?
	You as an individual.
	So we talk whenever I need to call them.
	We talk very often.
	It's at least once a week.
	Yeah. When I was buying my flat, they gave me some money to help me out, which really helped me out and allowed me to buy this place.
	I would talk to them weekly about which places I'd visited, what do you think of this place, what do you think of this place, and they'd give me their opinions and stuff.
	They have all the time in the world for me when it comes to just talking about how my business is going or Anything like that, really.
	When I was growing up, there was always food on the table, and they said that that was one of the things that was really important.
	My brother and I didn't get lots of toys and stuff like that, but my parents always said they focused on making sure that we had the essentials, because there were times when my dad didn't always have work and stuff like this.
	I sometimes think of my dad as a bit of a taxi driver, because when I was growing up, He would drive us anywhere.
	Like, if we wanted to, like, see friends...
	Oh, like your girlfriend to work, right?
	Yeah, yeah. I sometimes think if I just improved my driving skills a bit more and got myself a car, maybe my dating tastes would change a little bit, to be honest.
	But, yeah, that's an interesting correlation there, actually.
	Yeah, my... So my dad would drive me wherever I needed to go and pick me up as well if it was late in the evening.
	And this was in the days before...
	Yeah, before Uber.
	Okay, I get all that. So I'm always welcome there at Christmas and I always go back there.
	I'm always happy to see them and Yeah, I would say they always listen, but like we said before, when I really needed them that one time, that's why that one really stings, because I felt like I really needed them.
	Well, you had a demand or a request.
	You had a request that went against their preferences.
	And this is how you know whether someone cares about you.
	I mean, if you and I both want, if your favorite band is in town and I say, let's go see your favorite band, sure.
	I mean, you're happy, right? But, you know, the relationship compromises sometimes is when somebody asks you to do something that's not comfortable, right?
	And, you know, it doesn't mean you have to do it, but, you know, at least you're willing to, right?
	You know, my daughter likes, I don't know, history of video, like lore videos they're called, right?
	So what's going on in these various video games behind the scenes, right?
	It's like, okay, I'll do that.
	She likes Minecraft. I don't get Minecraft, so I'll play Minecraft with her from time to time because she enjoys it.
	So, but if people care for you, again, I'm just trying to redefine, I'm not saying your parents don't care for you, I'm asking questions, I'm not giving you conclusions, right?
	But my question as a philosopher, as a moralist would be, if your parents care about you, why did you end up in a destructive relationship for many years?
	I mean, it's nice that they listen to you about your business, and it's nice that they listen to you and that they cook you good meals at Christmas.
	And that's not unimportant. I'm not going to denigrate that.
	That's fine. But how did you end up in a multi-year relationship that was so destructive and so consuming that it haunts you many years after the fact and is interfering with your current relationship, right?
	Yeah. And logically, there's only a couple of possibilities.
	Sorry to be annoyingly firm. There's only a couple of possibilities.
	Either A, they had no clue that you were unhappy.
	And I know you told them, right?
	So that's not really a possibility.
	Yeah, yeah. Right? So they knew you were unhappy and they chose not to intervene.
	I mean, I'm telling you, if my daughter ends up dating a guy and there's something mean or negative about him, what am I going to do?
	Am I just going to say, oh, she'll figure it out for herself?
	No, absolutely not.
	Absolutely not. I will talk about it with her.
	I will drive over and see the boy.
	I will talk to his parents.
	I will leave no stone unturned to make sure that things either get better or she gets out.
	And the reason why my daughter will not end up in a relationship like that most likely is because I am willing to do that and some creep will know that ahead of time and will just steer clear.
	This is all prevention, right?
	I don't expect to ever have to do any of this stuff because I'm willing to do it.
	I would be eager to do it.
	Because I care about my daughter, so I don't want her to be in a bad or dangerous or risky situation, right?
	Now, you got out of this relationship...
	Which you were kind of lucky.
	This woman could have decided she was going to get pregnant and take you for everything you had.
	She could have become a stalker.
	She could have gone to the cops and said that you treated her in some criminal manner.
	She could have spread negative rumors about you, either online or to your friends.
	She could have called up your employer.
	I'm not saying she's that crazy, but it could happen, right?
	This certainly does happen to a lot of men.
	You're around the manosphere. You've heard these stories, right?
	You don't let your children play with fire.
	You don't let your children get into these kinds of negative or destructive or harmful relationships, not just because you want them to be happy in the moment, because these things can go seriously fucking wrong, right?
	I think, on the point of what...
	The thing I was maybe worried about was that, okay, if this is what it's like in the relationship, because...
	Later, when we had this final parting, which was rather seared into my memory, let's say, because this was where I was trying to get her back.
	Believe it or not, after all we've talked about, after this year off of us being friends, let's say, and then my friend said, okay, you're still crazy about this girl, why don't you try to patch things up or anything?
	Although... One would think that that's maybe not the best advice, but I just couldn't think of anyone but this person.
	But she said something like, oh, why did you never talk about...
	Why did you not really ever consider things like marriage and other things like that?
	Oh, that's what your ex-girlfriend said?
	Yeah. Yeah, and this is why she was monkey-branching.
	So, sorry to interrupt, but guys will date girls for years, not marry them, and then wonder why the girls end up contacting exes.
	So it's like, sorry, dude.
	I mean, you're not the be-all that end-all of existence.
	The eggs rule, right? And, of course, she's going to start looking elsewhere.
	If you're not going to marry her, she's going to have to find somebody who will.
	Anyway, sorry, go ahead. No, that's fine.
	With the current girlfriend, that's what I don't want to do.
	I don't want to waste her time and things like that.
	I feel horrible about how I am with Sorry, sorry.
	We're not at the current yet.
	I appreciate that. I'm sorry to be annoying, right?
	No, no, no. Okay, so if you were to sit down with your parents, okay, let's do a role play because I don't really get your dad as yet, right?
	So let's do a role play. You play your dad.
	Is that all right? Sure. Okay.
	Dad, I feel elementally untutored in life.
	I can't remember the single time where you gave me advice about life.
	I remember, you know, when I was getting drunk and you were really disappointed in me and upset with me.
	And it's like, but I just basically had to conform socially because I didn't have any instruction.
	I don't remember you giving me any coaching.
	I don't remember you giving me any, you know, and then I got into this bad relationship for years and I don't remember you sort of sitting me down.
	And, you know, we talk all the time, at least once a week.
	And, you know, so we talked...
	I don't know, hundreds of times over the course of those couple of years and not once did you ever ask me how things were going and then really try and help me figure out whether it was a good or bad thing for me.
	I just feel like I've been really inventing the wheel my whole life and, you know, you've done some great things as a parent and I appreciate that but I just, I feel lost.
	I feel like I just have to invent everything myself.
	And what's the story with that?
	I think your mother and I have set you a pretty good example of the way to act and behave.
	and um You don't tend to listen to us when we do have any advice for you.
	So it's my fault.
	It's my fault for not following your good example and not listening to your advice.
	Is that right? I know that sounds kind of defensive, but your answer as to my criticism of your parenting is that it's my fault as a child.
	Am I still my dad here?
	Yes. It was your choice to drink as much as you did that night.
	We didn't force you to do any of that.
	And as for these other things, this advice, if you've ever wanted to do any help with anything, you know we've always been there for you.
	So, is it now my fault for misperceiving my entire life with you as your child?
	Like, have I gotten anything right?
	Do I have anything valid in anything that I'm saying, or am I just 100% wrong about everything?
	Okay, so are you blaming everything that you've, in your life, that hasn't turned out the way you want, on us, on the way we praised you?
	Sorry, I'm not sure if we're going to have a conversation where you just make up shit that I say, or whether you're actually going to listen to me.
	Okay? Did I ever say anything like that?
	Okay, am I still my dad now?
	Just be your dad the whole way through.
	Sorry, okay. Um...
	I'm not sure I fully follow where you're going with all of this.
	Well, no. I just asked you a simple question here.
	So you said that I'm blaming you for absolutely everything in my life.
	Did I say that? No, but that's...
	Okay, so... No, no, no.
	So it's important to listen to me and not make up things in order to discredit me, right?
	Let me ask you this. Is there anything when you look back on the history of your parenting, of me, right?
	Let my brother have this conversation if he wants.
	But when you think about your parenting with me, is there anything over the last couple of decades that you would change or wish you had done slightly differently or a lot differently or anything like that?
	I think your mother and I have done a very good job with you and your brother.
	You've gone on to To do some great things, both of you.
	You're over there in another country, and you've got your own place, and you've got your own business, and you're working hard.
	And right now, maybe you haven't found the right person, or started a family, or these types of things, but it's going to happen.
	So I don't see where all this is coming from.
	I'm sorry, Dad. I really feel like we're sort of talking in two different worlds here.
	Without agreeing with me, can you repeat back the question that I asked you?
	Because your answer, or whatever that was, had nothing to do with my question.
	I just want to make sure that you're hearing what I'm saying.
	So, again, you don't have to agree with anything, but can you at least repeat back to me the question that I asked?
	No, I don't think I can.
	Well, isn't that strange?
	Okay, just asked you a question, not 20 seconds ago.
	It's a very important question.
	And you can't remember it?
	I mean, have you been checked up by a doctor lately?
	Because that's not particularly good, is it?
	And then he would probably say something like, what's the hallucinate of?
	Because... Okay, no, no, no.
	Just keep roleplaying him.
	Yeah, just keep roleplaying him. So he'd say, what's this an aid of?
	He'd try to jump out of the conversation and frame it in some big way.
	I'd say, okay, let me ask...
	Okay, I just want to ask a question, right?
	You care about me, right, Dad?
	Of course. Okay, and you care if I'm unhappy, right?
	Of course, we want you to be happy.
	Okay, now if I have a criticism of you and Mom...
	Which doesn't mean I don't care about you.
	It doesn't mean I don't love you. You can love somebody and criticize them.
	In fact, part of love is the ability to criticize and be criticized, right?
	Because nobody's perfect, right?
	So if you care about my happiness and I have a criticism of you and mom, would you be willing to listen to that and entertain the possibility that I could be right?
	It doesn't mean I don't love you. It doesn't mean that you weren't good parents.
	It just means that I have a criticism or two.
	Would you be willing to listen to that if it would help me become happier in my life?
	Okay, but it seems like all we ever do is hear criticisms and not the good things.
	I'm sorry, I'm not sure. So yes, if it made me happier, you would be willing to hear criticisms?
	Okay, because so far you haven't acted that way, right?
	I just want you to understand that.
	Like I brought up a criticism, not a huge one, but a criticism, and you immediately blamed me and then you escalated and then you came up with this absurd thing that I was blaming you for everything.
	So you say that, well, if you love me, then you would want me to be happy and would be willing to listen to criticisms.
	But so far you've done the exact opposite.
	You've kind of counterattacked when I brought up a criticism.
	Just so you're aware of that, right?
	So your deeds are not matching your words.
	Do you see what I'm saying?
	Mm-hmm.
	Yeah.
	And do you agree that your deeds are not matching awards?
	This is something where I don't think there would be any acceptance of responsibility here.
	There would be some...
	So what would he say? He would try to say something like...
	Look, if you're just going to berate me all evening, then, you know, I think we should talk about some other things.
	Or my mom would be around to kind of say something.
	And I'd say, okay, well, hang on a sec, Dad.
	Hang on a sec here. So you've had some criticisms of me over the years, right?
	And I've listened to them and I haven't just counterattacked or jumped out of the conversation, right?
	I mean, is it fair?
	I mean, I'm in my early 30s.
	I've had enough distance from my childhood to have some perspective, right?
	And no parent is perfect.
	And no child is perfect, of course, right?
	So I've listened to criticisms that you've had of me Some of which I have not agreed with, but I've listened.
	So I'm just asking for that same respect in return.
	You know that old saying, don't dish it out if you can't take it.
	So if you're going to dish out criticisms of me, which is fine.
	I mean, you're a parent.
	You're certainly welcome to do that.
	Is it not the case that I can give any criticisms of you and mom?
	Or are you just like dishing out criticism but you can't take it?
	Sure, of course. If there's something you really need to tell us, then we're here to listen to.
	Okay, fantastic, because you haven't been doing that, right?
	So again, your words don't match your deeds, because you're saying, well, we want to listen, and then you've counterattacked, you've fogged, you've escalated, you've tried to jump out of the conversation, you won't answer my questions.
	So I'm a little suspicious here, and this is part of what I'm criticizing about, right?
	Is that if I have a perspective that you don't like, you don't listen.
	And that's not good for me.
	That's not a healthy part of our relationship.
	And that's good stuff. You know, I appreciate the feedback on the business.
	And, you know, you gave a roof and a head and had a lot of fun as a kid.
	And so lots of great stuff, right?
	Lots of great stuff. That's why we're having this conversation.
	If you were just some, you know, awful parent all around, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
	So lots of good stuff. But the challenge is that if I have something that is a criticism...
	I mean, how do you feel when I bring this potential issue up?
	I mean, because you seem kind of tense to me, but I mean, I want to know how you feel about it.
	You have never had any problems pointing out my flaws, mum's flaws.
	So, I mean, this is nothing new for us.
	So, if there's something that we're not doing, you know, you're always happy to So you understand this is kind of aggressive, right?
	You think I'm happy to tell you that I have an issue?
	You think this gives me joy?
	Like, do you genuinely believe that that makes me happy or are you just being kind of a jerk?
	Because that's what they call passive-aggressive, right?
	Yeah.
	So it's not easy or fun for me to bring up these issues.
	I'm doing it because I care about a relationship and I want to be honest, right?
	Do you want me to lie?
	Do you want me to pretend I don't have an issue when I have an issue?
	Do you want me to just swallow things and cover things up no matter how much it costs me?
	But then when I bring up an issue and then you claim that I'm getting, what, some kind of sadistic joy out of bringing up an issue?
	You understand that's really hostile, Dad.
	That's not fair.
	Thank you.
	That's not caring. That's not loving.
	And that's not listening.
	That's attacking. That's punishing me for having an issue with you.
	Come on. That's not how you want to be, is it?
	No, no.
	That's... Here's where he would go quiet and sort of like give a resigned look down or something like this.
	Okay, so then I would say, okay, so you claim, right?
	I don't have the same memory, but that's fine.
	So you claim that I've had lots of issues with you in the past.
	Can you tell me the issues that I've brought up?
	Because, you know, you say you want to listen, you want to help, you care, right?
	So can you tell me the issues that I've had in the past with you that you remember?
	Or criticisms that I've had of you and mom?
	Oh, I mean, where to begin?
	You don't like mum's cooking.
	You think that...
	Oh, you're constantly going on at me about watching the football when I just get in from work.
	You know, I just want to rest and you say all this stuff.
	I mean... Even when we're talking on Skype, there'll be a jab or two here or there.
	We know that you're our greatest fans.
	So in the 30 plus years that we've known each other, my two criticisms that you can recall are I'm not a big fan of mom's cooking and you might watch too much football.
	That's it? And you know there's more.
	No, no, no. I'm asking what you remember because, you know, if you're listening to me and you say I have all these criticisms, right?
	There's endless criticisms that apparently I'm happy to inflict upon you.
	So what are those criticisms?
	Because these two are pretty minor, right?
	Obviously, I'm allowed to not like mom's cooking.
	I can't help my palate.
	I can't help my taste.
	You know, if something tastes bad for me, am I supposed to lie about it or am I supposed to tell the truth, right?
	I can't help the way that I like or don't like food.
	No one can. So that's not a big criticism.
	That's just me being honest, right?
	Now, as far as you watching too much football, am I not allowed to say that?
	If you are watching hours and hours of football a week, that it might be a bit too much.
	I mean, you're allowed to criticize me for drinking too much.
	Am I allowed to give you any criticism for any excess?
	So these are two things in 33 years, right?
	So again, I'm trying to sort of understand how your impression is of these endless criticisms, because these are two relatively minor criticisms over 33 years.
	And then he would joke and say something like, well, you know, when you put it like that, it makes you sound like a saint.
	Okay, so good.
	So do you retract?
	Were you wrong about saying that I criticize you endlessly or all the time or too much?
	Were you incorrect about that?
	Maybe you've got a point.
	Maybe you've got a point. No, no.
	Hey, I'm happy to revisit it, right?
	So you accused me, very aggressively I might add, but you accused me of having endless criticism.
	So when I asked you for examples, you could only think of two minor criticisms.
	Does that mean you were wrong?
	If there are other criticisms that you remember, I'm certainly happy to hear.
	But we have to have some facts in our conversation, right?
	So if you accuse me of lots of endless criticism and taking great pleasure in criticizing you and mom, and you can only think of two minor things in 33 years, were you incorrect?
	Fine. I was incorrect.
	Okay. Now, if you've accused me of something falsely, like if you've accused me of a bad thing, right, like over-criticizing you and mom or taking pleasure in criticizing you and mom endlessly or whatever you said, if you've accused me of something pretty negative and you're wrong, what do you owe me?
	Oh, is this what this is about?
	You want an apology for this?
	Well, it's not what I want.
	What's the right thing to do?
	I mean, if I were to accuse you of something really terrible, and it turned out that I was completely wrong about it, what would you expect from me?
	You're not exactly known for your apologies, though, are you?
	Well, I haven't done you any wrong in this conversation.
	You've done me wrong in this conversation by accusing me of bad behavior, which you're incorrect about accusing me of, right?
	You're accusing me of doing something bad, which I haven't done.
	So we're not talking about me in the past.
	We're talking about you in the present.
	Are you a man enough?
	Are you adult enough?
	Are you mature enough to apologize to someone if you unjustly accuse them of something bad?
	Fine. Yes, yes.
	I'm sorry. Now, if I gave you that non-apology, oh fine, I'm sorry, fine, would you accept that as a genuine apology?
	Alright, you know, fair enough.
	You're right. I'm sorry.
	Okay, I appreciate that. Thank you.
	Okay, so let's get back to the sort of lack of coaching, right?
	So with me, right, you really did let me kind of, you know, wander the woods, twist in the wind, raised by wolves or whatever, right?
	You really didn't give me much coaching or feedback on how to grow up or how to live, right?
	Do you know why? Was that like a choice?
	Was that just something that happened?
	What was the idea behind not giving me much feedback?
	Or coaching or whatever, right?
	Because, I mean, some people would call that parenting as a whole.
	If I could raise myself, then we wouldn't need parents, right?
	So I guess I'm just curious what the ideas were behind that.
	Well, your mother and I just thought that you needed, that it was better for you to find your own way in the world.
	We don't see it as a A lack of coaching as much as we want you to make your own decisions in life and not us telling you what to do, what to study, what to become.
	You've always been free to do what you wanted to be and to become in life.
	Well, but I didn't want to go to school.
	I didn't always want to go to church.
	But you made me go to school and you made me go to church.
	So, I mean, that's the majority of my week was either going to school or going to church.
	So if I've got to find my own way and I don't want to be told what to do, well, I mean, they told me what to do at school all the time.
	And they told me what to do in church all the time.
	And what they told me to do in school...
	Also occurred in the evenings and the weekends with homework and what they told me to do in church was all the time, right?
	Because, you know, I've always got to not sin and love Jesus and all, right?
	So I'm trying to understand these things.
	If you believe that it's the good thing for children is to not tell them what to do, then why did you put me in environments that were telling me what to do all the time?
	Well, you know...
	Of course, everyone's got to go to school, so that's nothing.
	Well, no, that's not true. No, no, no.
	You can not go to school, right?
	You can homeschool.
	There's tutors. Again, I don't know geographically, just to jump out of the roleplay.
	I don't know geographically, but let's say that there's some alternate arrangements that are possible.
	And certainly church is more voluntary, right?
	So we'll just have to fudge this one a little because if you were in Germany, I think homeschooling is illegal or whatever, right?
	But you had other people telling me what to do, right?
	I mean, teachers told me what to do.
	And even if it wasn't possible to homeschool, you didn't say to me, well, we have to send you to school and the teachers are going to tell you what to do, but I don't think the children should be told what to do.
	It's just what we're legally forced to do because of the government or whatever, right?
	So you seemed to be, when I was a kid, you seemed to be perfectly content with me being told what to do by other people, but just not yourself.
	And I'm trying to sort of figure that one out.
	We wanted you to...
	Yeah.
	On the point of homeschooling, he probably would say, like, oh, the last thing you would want is to spend 24 hours a day with...
	Your mum or I or something like this, you know, some kind of joke.
	Well, no, no, no, that's not the issue.
	And I would say that's not the issue.
	The issue is that if you don't think children should be told what to do, then homeschooling wouldn't be you and mum telling me what to do, right?
	It would be me trying to figure out my own education or my own preferences, sorting things out for myself and following my own passions, because that would be in consistency with the idea that good parenting is not telling children what to do.
	So then you would homeschool me and you'd let me find my own way.
	Because if it's bad to tell children what to do, why did you put me in an environment for like 40 hours a week given school and church and homework?
	Why would you put me in an environment for 40 or 50 hours a week where I'm being told what to do if telling children what to do is bad?
	In other words, why is it bad for you to tell me what to do but great for strangers to tell me what to do?
	And then he would probably argue about school not really telling you what to do.
	It's just, you've just got to do maths and English.
	Well, okay, but they tell you what to do, right?
	They literally say, open your book to page 40.
	Sure. Right? So that would be pretty easy to scotch, right?
	So he'd fuzz around with this for a little bit, right?
	There would be a lot of fuzzing.
	Yeah, there'd be a lot of fuzzing, right?
	And then, after a certain amount of fuzzing, you either persist or you give up.
	And then I would switch to this, so if you can go back into your dad's skin for a sec.
	Yeah, yeah. I would say...
	Let me just pause here for a sec because it's been like a shark at the edge of my vision.
	It's been hoving in and out of my consciousness about being told what to do.
	Oh, yes! Okay, okay.
	So not telling children what to do is kind of unusual, right?
	I mean, it's not a very common thing in society, right?
	To not tell children what to do, to not give them any coaching, to not really give them any advice, right?
	So if you're going to...
	Embark upon a radical departure from social norms.
	And we're not just talking in our society.
	This is every society across the world throughout history, right?
	And, of course, this goes directly against Christian teaching.
	Christian pedagogy is you absolutely have to give your children instruction because children are born sinful or children are born amoral and need to be raised and educated, right?
	Spare the rod, spoil the child.
	Spare the instruction and your children get spoiled, right?
	So as a Christian, you put me in a church that was instructing me deeply and widely and in the peril of my eternal soul.
	And you as a Christian would be someone who would accept that children need to be instructed.
	So I don't understand why you would be a Christian and then not instruct me because Christianity very specifically, repeatedly, and emphatically tells parents to instruct their children.
	So, okay, that's fine.
	You decided to be the opposite of a Christian while putting me in a church, right?
	So you did something really deviating from all societies, all across the world, all throughout history, and against your specific religious instructions, because, you know, I go to church and...
	You know, they say it's really, really important to instruct children.
	I come home and you won't instruct me to save your life, it seems.
	So it's kind of confusing for me.
	But let's put all of that aside, right?
	That's just wrinkles in my brain, right?
	Let's put all of that aside, Dad, and let's just ask the one most fundamental question.
	So you had a theory that said, well, I'm not going to instruct my children.
	Now, if I have a child and I say to my child, I'm not going to give you any carbs, right?
	Carbs are bad. I'm not going to give you any carbs, right?
	Now, do you think if I decide to do something really radical like that, like not give my children any carbs...
	Do you think that it's important for me to check and see whether it's working or not?
	In other words, do you think it's important for me to see if my child is growing well, is thriving, has enough energy, has a good clear skin tone and is gaining height and weight at the appropriate rates and go to the doctor and get the blood work done?
	Because if I'm going to go on some radical dietary experiment with my kids, do you think it's important for me as a parent to check and see whether that's working, to ask questions of my child?
	How do you feel today?
	Did you sleep well?
	How's your energy?
	And if my child says, I can't sleep, I just feel tired all the time and pale and I stand up and I get dizzy.
	I mean, do you think it's important for me to check in with my child if my fairly radical experiment is working out or not?
	Yeah, in that case, definitely Right, okay. So you had a theory which said, I'm going to send my child to a church and a school that says it's really, really important to instruct children.
	I'm going to send my child to a Christian church which says children absolutely need to be instructed.
	But I'm going to choose not to instruct my child.
	And I don't remember a single time when I was a kid, Dad.
	And I'm angry at this.
	I'll be straight up, right? Sorry if you don't like it, but you're a big guy.
	You'll survive. Okay?
	I don't remember one time When I was a kid, Dad, that you ever asked me whether it was working out for me.
	I don't remember you ever asking and saying, hey, you know, I've decided not to instruct you on anything, really.
	Do you want any instruction?
	Is it confusing to you that I'm sending you to a church which says instructing children is moral and not instructing children is immoral, and that I've decided not to instruct you?
	I don't remember you ever checking in with me to see whether that worked for me or not, whether I liked that or not, or whether I wanted more instruction or not.
	So how could you?
	I mean, it's a serious, basic question.
	How could you have a theory that went in the opposite of what other people were instructing me on that you sent me to?
	How could you have a theory that's radically different?
	From every other way of raising children.
	How could you have a theory, pursue it decade after decade, year after year, month after month, week after week, day after day, and never once check in to find out whether it was working for me or not?
	What the hell, Dad?
	I mean, that's ridiculously irresponsible, in my opinion.
	And then he would be a bit sheepish and just sort of kind of...
	Eyes down, just sort of like, okay, that's how you feel, something like that, yeah.
	Okay. But that's what I'm asking.
	I'm asking, if a parent has a responsibility, if they radically change their diet, they have a responsibility to make sure it's working for the child and you've agreed with that, so why the hell didn't you ever check in with me to find out whether my lack of instruction was helpful to me or not?
	Because if you're saying, oh, son, well, I did it for the best.
	Children shouldn't be told what to do.
	I'm doing it for the best for you.
	Well, shouldn't you check in with me about whether it is the best for me or not?
	Shouldn't you ask me if something you claim is the best for me is actually the best for me?
	This is where he would probably say something like, well, we didn't think you...
	I don't think that you are as unhappy as you seem to be right now.
	But you didn't ask!
	You didn't ask!
	So if you say, well, we didn't know, that's still 100% your responsibility, because you didn't ask.
	So why, for 33 years, given that I haven't been able to have a successful relationship, I haven't been able to settle down, why is it that after 33 years you haven't said to me, hey son, how did it work out for you having virtually no parental instruction?
	Do you think that was a good idea or a bad idea?
	You had, like, okay, let's say over the first couple of years, right?
	But you've had almost three decades to ask me and you never have once.
	I don't know what's up with that.
	You claim you care about me.
	You want to do things to make me happy.
	How come you never asked whether what you were doing made me happy?
	And then, after you didn't give me any instruction, and in fact you introduced me to contradictory instruction, i.e.
	children need to be instructed, but instructing children is bad, then I end up in a peer pressure situation with no preparation.
	You never taught me what to look for in a woman, so I ended up following lust.
	You blamed me for drinking too much when part of that is because I didn't know how to interact socially because I wasn't given any instruction.
	And I didn't know how to resist peer pressure because you never gave me any inoculation against peer pressure or warned me of the danger or any more than you warned me of the dangers of pretty women, which every man alive knows because our eyes are drawn to them.
	So you claim to care about me and want me to be happy, but for 30 years you never asked me whether what you were doing was making me happy.
	I'm trying to square the circle, Dad, and I'm not making it.
	He would be very quiet at that point.
	And sort of ask about how one is connected to the other, like how his instruction was therefore responsible for the rest of my love life or all that.
	No, no, it's lack of instruction.
	Right, so the example I would give, Dad, is that if I just have never heard of Japan before and I wake up in Japan...
	I don't know any of the local customs.
	I don't know how to act. I don't know how to behave.
	So I'm going to be kind of paralyzed and anxious because I don't want to offend people.
	I don't want to upset people. I don't want people to, you know, I don't want to make some gesture that I'm scratching my ear, but it turns out that that is a gesture that's highly insulting and I end up in some duel and get killed, right?
	I'm going to be really paralyzed with panic and anxiety and not know what to do because I don't know anything about Japan.
	I've been failed to be instructed on anything to do with Japan or customs or cultural language or...
	Religion or history or—I don't even know the laws, right?
	Like in Singapore, you can get caned for spitting on the sidewalk.
	You can spit on the sidewalk in other countries, no particular issue.
	Some places you can get thrown in jail for jaywalking.
	Other places, no. Right?
	So I wouldn't even know how to not break the laws, right?
	So, I mean, that's an extreme example, but— If I don't know how to date, I don't know how to socialize, I don't know how to interact with people, then I'm going to be pretty susceptible to peer pressure.
	Because I've got to make a decision somehow, and I don't have any positive knowledge to make a decision, so I'll just avoid the negatives of social or peer pressure disapproval.
	So when somebody says, here, have a drink, you never talked to me about drinking, you barely talked to me about sex.
	I got some weird nuts and bolts presentation, and that's it.
	You didn't tell me how to pick a good woman.
	You didn't tell me how to resist peer pressure.
	You didn't tell me about the dangers of alcohol.
	And you know that we live in a heavy drinking culture.
	So I have to figure all these things out for myself.
	And then what happens is you just say, oh my gosh, son, I'm so disappointed in you for drinking.
	Well, you didn't help me not to drink.
	You didn't as a child.
	I mean, I started drinking as a teenager.
	And when I first started drinking as a teenager, you didn't sit there and say, boy, you know, we've got a real problem here.
	We've got to sit down and figure this out.
	Nope. Just kind of sailed on.
	Until I publicly embarrassed you, like with that N-word potential, right?
	So when I publicly embarrassed you at a wedding, then you're like, well, I'm really disappointed in you.
	well, how about being a little proactive and not waiting for disasters to occur before giving me some pretty brutal feedback?
	Yeah, he wouldn't say much at this point if we were still talking – Right. And the last thing that I would say is, so when you attacked me for bringing these issues up, that was very cruel.
	It was very cruel. These are legitimate issues.
	I'm not saying you've been a complete failure as a father.
	There's lots of things you did that were good.
	Some things you did that were great.
	I care about you. I care about this relationship.
	But when I brought up some of these issues, you may not agree with them, but they're not crazy.
	And you really worked hard to make me feel mean, abusive, crazy, sadistic, just for bringing these issues up.
	That's really cruel. I just, straight up, I lost a lot of respect for you in this conversation, Dad.
	I've got to be straight up with you. I've got to be frank.
	I want to be honest with you.
	I don't view people who can't take criticism as worthy of much respect in that area.
	And you really blew it here.
	And you need to figure that out.
	It's not my job to figure that out.
	You're the parent, right? You need to figure that out.
	Why did you get so hostile and defensive when I started bringing up an issue?
	Because it is an important issue.
	And you expected me to take your criticism.
	You expected me to take criticism as a child from teachers and priests and you and mom.
	And now you're a grown-ass adult and you can't take a criticism.
	Dish it out but can't take it, people.
	Not super inspiring, Dad.
	I'm worried that if I ever had this kind of conversation with him, it would basically go that way.
	I mean, it probably wouldn't get as far as...
	Oh, no. When he wouldn't respond, that's probably when he would exit the conversation.
	Yeah, yeah, exactly. He would get too much anxiety and way too much stress, way too much fear.
	Yeah. And, you know, and it's funny too, like I make this point in my novel, The Future, about how, you know, some relationships are only five minutes away from disaster, like any given time, right?
	Just a couple of real questions.
	So, okay, so listen, I appreciate that.
	I really got a stronger sense of your dad and sometimes it's good to be the interpreted version of the person that's being talked about.
	So what was your experience? Sorry he's maybe not such fun to spend time with you know.
	No no it's it's it was very very important to do that and you did a fantastic job as people tend to.
	So what was your experience of playing your dad?
	A little it's quite quite sad maybe maybe sadly predictable in terms of knowing the sorts of things that he would say to kind of Skirt around it or avoid something or play down or all this type of stuff.
	Oh, no, no, no. That was not even close to what he was doing.
	It was a full-on attack. He wasn't playing down.
	He wasn't minimizing. There was a little bit of fogging.
	And you'll hear this when you listen back to this.
	That was a straight-up vicious attack.
	Relentless, all-encompassing, brutal, abusive.
	There's, um...
	Yeah, it...
	I'm not so sure what to say.
	Bye.
	Now, if you recognize that, then you can appreciate your current girlfriend more.
	But if you normalize that, your current girlfriend won't have as much value to you.
	I assume she doesn't do anything like this, right?
	If she doesn't do what, sorry?
	Well, if you bring up an issue with her, she doesn't call you crazy or sadistic or, like, she just, you know, she doesn't counterattack in this unbelievably ugly way that your roleplaying dad did.
	Maybe she dismisses a little, like a tiny little bit here and there, but...
	Okay, but she's not doing this, right?
	Because your dad wasn't just dismissing.
	I'm a little bit worried now because I'm thinking to myself, God, have I normalized this, you know?
	You think? No, listen, what your dad did was brutal.
	For a father to call his son crazy or sadistic or cruel, to escalate to that degree is a full-on assault.
	I mean, that's all the heaviest guns of parenting.
	It's worse than a beating.
	Oh god, because when I hear, when I was, let's say, playing him, I thought to myself, yeah, he'd kind of laugh stuff off, he'd sort of, but I didn't hear it as what you're describing.
	Oh, you'll hear it, and you'll see it on the comments, man.
	You'll hear it when it comes back, and I hope that you hear it clearly, because I was shocked at how Abusive and aggressive your father became when a fairly, relatively mild criticism was brought up.
	And it was brought up as a potential criticism, not even an absolute, right?
	I think, yeah.
	And there's, there are times when I try, I have tried, I think, I'm trying to remember them now as we're talking, but to get a little deeper and I could always tell that it became more uncomfortable for my From my dad or my mom, for instance, when I had to tell...
	Right. So the reason that they could not help you with your ex was because to criticize your ex would be to criticize themselves.
	And the reason they aligned with your ex was they do the same thing.
	You do what we want or we escalate.
	And we escalate really fucking quickly and really fucking harshly.
	I mean, it's about the worst bullying I've had in a roleplay.
	Seriously? Seriously.
	Like, no kidding. You need to denormalize the shit out of this.
	I don't mean to be overly technical in my phraseology, but that's brutal.
	I mean, I know I knew that my parents, let's say, took this, if we can call it, or non-tutoring approach, or I know that they try to avoid difficult conversations like this.
	I mean, I rarely have this kind of strong...
	But you know where it leads.
	That's why you're avoiding it. So the roleplay that you have with your father, look, if you have this conversation with your father, odds are, I think, your accurate will go this way, but...
	Without a doubt, this is your concern about where it's going to go, right?
	So the reason you're obsessed with your ex is because she's trying to lead you.
	Her ghost is trying to lead you to your parents.
	Because it's the same thing.
	She claimed to care about you, but she attacked you on a regular basis.
	She claimed to care about you, but you were never allowed to disagree with her.
	You weren't allowed to have your own thoughts and opinions that weren't convenient to her.
	And she would escalate and attack you for doing things outside of what she wanted.
	Whether you did do something she didn't want you to do or you didn't do something she did want to do.
	Escalation and bullying. For you to have a voice is to be attacked.
	For you to exist is to be destroyed.
	So of course they couldn't help you with her.
	I think I'm trying to kind of square in my mind a little bit.
	It's like trying to put out fire with fire.
	Sorry, go ahead. Well, the thing I'm trying to square in my head is that before I met her, like, so when I met her, I was like a sort of online dating sort of thing, and she just turned up at the place that we'd agreed to meet, and I remember thinking to myself, oh, my God, like, this girl is like the most, you know, Perfect, ideal, my kind of conception.
	But she's not what you would call like, or she wasn't, I don't know, like model perfect sort of thing.
	But she was whatever my...
	Yeah, she clicked for you.
	Yeah, I get it. It's like a lock and a key.
	Yeah, she clicked. Right.
	So I really felt that it was like a deep connection early on.
	Just, of course, let's say exterior looks and stuff.
	And I didn't know about the other, you know, the personality, let's say, behind the looks.
	And it's also the part that I'm most unhappy about, that this is, I really hate this aspect of her character.
	And I've often thought, if she just were able to change this one little thing about herself, like, you know, a few percentage points here or there, then, you know, we would have been like, we wouldn't have had These issues, it was the fact that she had to be right about every single thing, yeah? And so I'm trying to square the fact that, so this is like my, maybe imprinting, is that the word?
	Okay, so when you were a kid, you had to idealize your parents.
	We all do. That's how we, I mean, kids who didn't idealize their parents, those genes never survived.
	So you had to idealize your parents.
	You had to normalize and idealize their behavior.
	Now, this is difficult.
	The effects of this are difficult when you normalize a behavior, a presence of something, like screaming, verbal abuse, yelling, beatings, or whatever.
	That's tough enough. However, you had to normalize an absence, what's missing.
	They say, oh, well, you can't miss what you never had.
	It's like, no, no, no, you miss the most what you never had because it's the hardest to identify.
	So you're missing parenting, coaching, and a genuine caring for you, like I care for my daughter at least once a week.
	I will say to her, how's it going?
	Anything I can do better? Anything I can do different?
	Anything that's bugging you, right?
	Is my parenting working for you?
	Right, blah, blah, blah, right? I've told her my whole philosophy, of course, that she can't choose me, but I'd like to parent in a way that if she could choose any father in the world, she would choose me.
	I assume, I mean, this is a bit of a rhetorical question I'm going to ask, but I assume it's bad news if For all the times I speak to them weekly, I don't say things like, I don't feel alive.
	I feel an enormous void in my life.
	I barely have a pulse.
	Is that how you feel?
	I feel a huge void in my life.
	After this breakup, it sounds ridiculous.
	No, no, no. Please, please don't denigrate yourself.
	It is very important. It is not ridiculous at all.
	It is essential. It is very important.
	Your feelings about this, the reason I'm spending all this time, right?
	Because I care about you and want to please take this seriously.
	This is deadly serious.
	Well, I really wouldn't have called in if it had been just a sort of like, oh, I'm I've got a slight breakup and I'm a bit unhappy.
	So you have detached yourself from the effect of your parents, but you haven't figured out the true cause.
	So if you recoil from a growing fire but still stay within the locked building, you can't relax, right?
	You have to get out of the building.
	So if you move away from one fire, or you put out a localized fire, but the building is still burning, you can't relax, right?
	So if you feel a void in your life with regards to this, she pointed out an absence in your personality, right?
	She highlighted that.
	She turned the light on. Right?
	And the absence was, when I need someone, I can't be there.
	When I need someone...
	I can't exist in their proximity at the same time.
	Now, you understand this is your parents, right?
	You needed them to survive.
	You needed them to care for you.
	You needed them to give you food and shelter, right?
	Sure, yeah. And what was the price of their approval?
	The price of their approval was not existing, not disagreeing, not having your own thoughts, not having your own needs, not having your own preferences.
	And so then when you see this girl, right, and you're like, oh, she's perfect for me.
	Okay, so now you're back in a state of need, right?
	Can you need someone and disagree with them and have your own thoughts and your own preferences and find a way to negotiate?
	Well, I don't think you have that experience.
	I felt that I was, let's say, disagreeing with this ex an awful lot.
	Like, we would talk about This is one of the things that made me a little wary of her.
	I think we talked a bit earlier about her monkey branching.
	After three years, there was no ring and all the rest of it.
	But I was looking at her.
	Forgive me if I'm repeating myself.
	But she thought her parents should get divorced.
	And so I'm looking at her thinking, okay, so you think that divorce is...
	By the way, I'm not judging.
	I think there are probably circumstances where it's absolutely the best course of action.
	But just purely on the scale of, okay, so you actually think your parents should be divorced.
	If I marry you...
	What does that mean for our future?
	If things are going to get difficult, which they sometimes do...
	Well, no, no, that's like... You can't judge her by her parents because she's not responsible for that.
	And by the way, divorce is never the best course of action.
	Divorce may be the least worst course of action, but the best course of action is to be happily married.
	Divorce is never the best course of action.
	It's just... Maybe the best you can make out of a terrible situation.
	It's like the least worst, you know, but it's never a plus.
	Anyway, so there's sort of semantics and all that.
	She came with a bit of a red flag in that respect.
	And she was also quite, let's say, pro-choice or something like this, we can say.
	Yeah. Actually, she felt betrayed that I didn't go along to one of these marches.
	Now, what was her age range when you were dating her?
	Sort of mid to late 20s? We were about the same.
	So I think we both met when we were 26, 27.
	Right. And was the whole term of the relationship, including the year off, was that four years?
	Yeah, that was four years.
	And then since then, it's been about another...
	Three years. So it's been like four, approaching five years that we haven't actually been together.
	Wait, sorry, it's been five years since you have been together?
	No, I'm sorry. Sorry, sorry.
	Let's say five years since we broke up, roughly four or five years since we broke up.
	No, not if you're in your early 30s.
	Because if you were together for four years, and it's been five years since you broke up, and you met in your mid to late 20s, then you'd be in your mid to late 30s.
	Yeah, yeah, so I'm sort of, yeah, mids.
	Okay, maybe, sorry.
	In which case your parents have had even longer to ask you whether their parenting worked for you.
	But anyway. No, you don't have to give me answers.
	So let's say you went out for a grand total of four years, including the year off, and it's been five years since you broke up.
	Is that right? Let's say since we broke up, then it's three years.
	Three years. Okay, okay. So you've got a sort of seven-year soup to nuts start to end, right?
	From when you first met to now.
	Yeah, exactly. Seven years.
	Now, have you done a good old ex-boyfriend cyberstalking and figured out how she's doing now?
	She's not active on social media, so sometimes I've looked at her profile and stuff, but no, not particularly.
	And you haven't done a hunt for her on dating apps?
	I'm not suggesting you have, I'm just curious.
	No, no, no, that's fine. No, I haven't.
	I haven't done it, but yeah, I'm always thinking what would happen if I ever bump into her in a Medium-sized town or something.
	Did she ever know that you cheated on her physically?
	I don't think so.
	Oh, I think you would have heard about that, wouldn't you?
	Yeah, exactly. Let's say no.
	Let's say no, because... We never talked about it.
	I never admitted it. And at what phase in the relationship, like your two years on, one year off, and then one year before the end, at what phase in the relationship did you cheat?
	It was, sorry, so it was three years together and then one year as like this sort of friends.
	I'm sorry, did you get back together after the one year of friend thing?
	No, no. So the thing with that is that my friend said, God, you never stop talking about ex-girlfriend.
	Maybe you two should just bang your heads together and just, you know, kind of, because clearly you're still obsessed with her and in love with her or whatever.
	And then that's when I thought to myself, okay, so I'll try.
	I made a few overtures. You know, we went out for this, we went out for that.
	And the last time I did it, I knew she'd started seeing someone.
	It had only been about six weeks that she'd been seeing this guy.
	And after this, you know, very nice evening, concert, dinner, blah, blah, blah, all this kind of stuff, really making an extra special effort, we had the talk, let's say, the talk about maybe getting back together, because I'd already had this talk with her, and it was like, no, yeah.
	And I asked, so it seems like you're kind of choosing someone that you've only just met over someone who you care to profess love and all these other things.
	And the words that are seared into my memory are, so it seems.
	Oh, so she's nice and passive-aggressive like your dad.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	No coincidence, I'm sure.
	Yeah, she couldn't even give me that straight answer of like, yeah, that's what I'm doing.
	And she brought up, there was a little bit of maybe sand in the eyes, or maybe just showing my, let's say, double standards, but the fact that she was like, and you know, like, I've been seeing this person, and I know that you have this policy of not seeing Yeah.
	But you never told her that you had cheated on her.
	Yeah, I never.
	So you were deceiving her the whole time.
	Yeah. Because you were withholding information that was essential for her to know if she wanted to get back together with you, right?
	Yeah. Right.
	This happened, that was I think the third year.
	Yeah, yeah, okay, I get it.
	Probably when things were worse.
	And so, sorry, in the three years when you were together, what time in that did you cheat?
	I think it was the third year.
	So beginning, middle, end?
	Was it near the end of the relationship?
	Oh, I think things were already bad.
	I'm sure they were because that's why I was like...
	I think it was maybe the beginning or the middle of the third year, maybe.
	Okay, and so if you had told her, like when you wanted to get back together, if you had told her that you had cheated on her in the past, she wouldn't have, I imagine she wouldn't have entertained even the possibility of getting back together.
	Oh yeah, absolutely not.
	And so the plan was to get her back and then never to talk about ever having cheated on her, right?
	Yeah, yeah. I mean, sorry, that was the plan?
	Yeah, there was, and it's...
	And does your current girlfriend know that you cheated on your last girlfriend?
	No. I'm not saying she should, I'm just curious.
	No, no, but she doesn't, no, I haven't talked about this.
	Right, okay. So, this is why it's not good to stay at these destructive relationships, because...
	To burn up a woman's fertility window is an incredibly aggressive act.
	I mean, you're mad at her, right?
	You were mad at her for bullying you.
	You were mad at her for lying to you.
	You were mad at her for this X thing.
	You were mad at her for being a, quote, perfectionist and inflicting it on you and all of that, right?
	So you were mad at her.
	And you didn't do the honorable thing and say, look, whoever it's going to be for you, it's not going to be me.
	Because that's the thing. I remember having this conversation a couple of times with women when I was dating in my 20s.
	And they'd say, well, I don't like that you're this way.
	And my answer was always the same.
	Okay, well, you should find someone who isn't this way.
	Because you don't just pick someone randomly and then try and turn them into who you want.
	You find someone that you want.
	I don't go to an Indian restaurant and trash the place because it doesn't serve good sushi.
	That would be nuts, right?
	I don't go to a sushi restaurant and then say, I can't believe they don't have chicken vindaloo on the menu.
	This place sucks! And I don't yell at the owner for not serving.
	Like, if I want Indian, I go to an Indian restaurant.
	If I want sushi, I go to a sushi restaurant.
	I don't just go to any restaurant and then get mad at it for not serving what I want.
	It's crazy, right?
	Well, and this is, like, it seems so weird that of all these qualities that we talked about with this ex, she was still who I... Wanted for so long.
	Like, I mean...
	No, no, no, no. No, no, no.
	Absolutely not. You've got nothing for the combo if you think that's true.
	She's not who you wanted.
	She's what you were used to.
	Okay. That's it.
	Oh, shit. If that's...
	She's what you were used to.
	Being bullied, being controlled, being rejected, being held to a standard you can't ever meet.
	Not being cared about.
	Not having your happiness inquired into, not having people adapt to reasonable preferences.
	Do you know how long it took for your role-play dad to threaten the relationship?
	About a tenth of a second.
	Right? He was willing to verbally abuse in the most destructive ways his only son for bringing up a reasonable criticism.
	And then you say, oh, well, you know, this woman, boy, she had her finger on that one button the whole time.
	Right? So it's not what you wanted.
	It's what you're used to.
	It's what was inflicted upon you when you had no choice.
	Right? I mean, you never lose the language of your birth, right?
	You can't unlearn the language of your upbringing.
	You can adapt it, you can change it, you can alter it, but you can't eliminate it.
	So no, she's not what you wanted.
	She's what you were used to.
	Now, there's a battle in your life at the moment between your parents and your current girlfriend, in your heart.
	If your current girlfriend, okay, I'm sure she's not perfect, nobody is, but, you know, she's obviously a lot better than your ex, right?
	Would you agree with that? She's a better...
	Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay, so she's a lot better.
	So here you have someone in your life who really cares for you.
	you now do your parents want to have someone in your life who really genuinely and truly cares for you they've um they've met uh i think twice maybe They've come to this country and we've gone back and she's welcome at Christmas and this kind of stuff.
	I don't sense any kind of like hostility.
	Okay. Does your current girlfriend think that your parents care about you in the way that she does?
	I think...
	I'm not sure, but I think that she thinks that my parents are somewhat caring because I think, unfortunately, her upbringing is worse, if you can believe that.
	So, yeah, they're better than her parents, right?
	Okay. Now, let's say that with the knowledge we're talking about in this conversation...
	With the knowledge, the framework that we're talking about in this conversation, which I think is correct, but it's not physics, right?
	So if your girlfriend really cares about you, does that seem different from how your parents interact with you?
	In other words, if you brought up a criticism with regards to how your relationship was going with your girlfriend, not a major one, but, you know, not totally insignificant, would she react in the way that your dad did in the role play?
	Okay.
	Not to that...
	I think...
	Well, not that bad, I hope, right?
	Yeah, yeah. Okay, so hang on.
	So let's say that your girlfriend is present.
	No, let me put it to you this way.
	We don't even have to do a hypothetical.
	How is your girlfriend going to react when she hears this roleplay you did with me about your dad?
	Will she say, oh, yeah, seems like a great guy.
	You know, I'm a huge fan.
	Um... Yeah, no, I don't think so.
	No, she would say, if she loves you, and if the roleplay is accurate, and your dad calls you a sadist, so to speak, right?
	Because he said, oh, you must be really happy to bring up all these issues, right?
	Yeah. So, if you love someone, and I don't care who the hell it is...
	If someone comes up to you and says, the man that you love is actually a sadist, right?
	And just loves to criticize people, loves to cause trouble, and is crazy, and imagines things and makes them up.
	He's crazy and cruel and mean, sadistic.
	If you love a man and someone says that about the man you love, what is your reaction?
	You'd want to spend as little time as possible with this person.
	Do your parents want you to be truly loved?
	Because somebody who truly loves you, right?
	Let's say I was your girlfriend, right?
	Somebody who truly loves you, We'd say, oh gosh, if you have these issues with your parents, I mean, let's sit down with them and let's, you know, I'm happy to help.
	I love you. I'll support you.
	Let's sit down with your parents and let's hash this out.
	Let's solve this because, you know, this shouldn't be a bone of contention between you guys and And, you know, you say you love each other.
	I'm sure you do. So, you know, we'll just sit down and work it out.
	And then she would call your parents and she'd say, come on over.
	And she'd invite them over. She'd make some food and she'd sit down afterwards and she'd turn off everyone's phone and she'd say, listen, my boyfriend has something that he wants to talk about with you and, you know, let's work it out, right?
	So she would bring that conversation around and she'd sit there.
	And do your parents want that to happen?
	Oh, no, absolutely not.
	Absolutely not.
	Do your parents want you to be truly loved?
	It looks like the answer is no.
	I'm afraid this is just a logic one here, right?
	This isn't even a theoretical, right?
	Because somebody who truly loves you Will not want you to lie in your relationships.
	Both for moral and selfish reasons.
	Because if she knows you have an issue with your parents and she sees you avoiding that issue with your parents, what's she going to be concerned about with regards to you and her?
	That I'm going to avoid issues enough.
	Yeah, be like, holy shit.
	He can lie his fucking ass off.
	He is like completely credible in lying.
	Ooh, I just got a bone chill.
	She's not going to want to see you lying pathologically with your parents.
	She's going to want to clear the air, right?
	Because she wants to help you.
	She loves you. She cares about you.
	She doesn't want you to lie, both because she cares about you and because it's scary for her to watch, right?
	Do you see what I'm saying?
	Yeah, I think...
	So if you are genuinely loved, you're in a collision course with your parents.
	So your parents are running both your relationships, 100%.
	They ran the relationship with your ex because she did not threaten them in any way.
	In fact, she reinforced everything.
	Because she treated you the same way in many ways.
	No threat from her.
	But they sense, I'm guessing, right?
	Your inner alter egos, your internal mom and dad.
	Now, how accurate that is relative to your external mom and dad?
	I don't know. They're not on the call, right?
	But your inner mom and dad are very concerned about your relationship with the new girl.
	This new woman. Because they sense that she might actually really love you.
	And if she really loves you, she doesn't want to see you hurt.
	She doesn't want to see you insulted.
	And she sure as hell doesn't want to see you lying.
	Right? So your parents are like, so you, the genuine you is like, yeah, this is a quality woman.
	This is a good woman. This is what you said to me in the email, right?
	But your parents are like, danger, danger, danger.
	If he's truly loved, oh my god, we're screwed.
	Now, maybe the conversation would go well and maybe everybody would look back and say, wow, I'm really glad that you were truly loved.
	But that's not how your parents feel about it at the moment, I'm sure, at least the ones in your head, right?
	Is it, I guess it's a bad sign if I think that it, how to put this, it, As long as they're not challenged openly, like in that discussion we had.
	As long as everything is, you know, peaceful on the surface, yeah, like, oh, it's...
	Yes, but if you get genuinely loved, it changes your world completely.
	Trust me, brother, this I know from absolute experience.
	Sure. When you get genuinely loved, it changes your world completely.
	I wonder, you know, my current girlfriend and I, we haven't...
	Well, we've talked a little bit about feelings.
	She hasn't come out with the...
	After two years, she hasn't come out with, you know, words about, like, I love you and things like this.
	But she feels...
	She feels my...
	Almost lack of caring in some regards.
	Well, you haven't shown up enough to be loved yet.
	Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
	Now, I think it's unwise for her to continue to hang out with someone she can't fall in love with.
	And maybe she wants to talk to me, that's fine.
	But maybe she lacks the language to help you manifest who you actually are.
	But if you come into your own, if you are genuinely honest and express your thoughts and feelings, your parents will not be happy.
	And we are all born to please our parents.
	We're born to please our parents.
	Can't survive without it. If pleasing your parents means not being honest, well, sign me up for lying 101 forever, right?
	Because you just won't do it. Now, again, once you have the knowledge and you understand the costs, Of it, right?
	The cost of not being honest with your parents are being obsessed with your ex because your parents, like, it's not even you who wants your ex.
	The sex can't be that good.
	It's your parents who want your ex.
	And it's not you who can't commit to your current girlfriend.
	It's your parents who are worried about you committing to your current girlfriend.
	Because once she recognizes her power, like, what does it mean to genuinely care about someone, to genuinely love someone?
	It's to encourage them to virtue, isn't it?
	And to be encouraged into virtue.
	That's what it means to love.
	Because love is so intimately wrapped up in virtue, you can't have one without that.
	If you want to love someone more, encourage them to be more virtuous.
	And being virtuous It's very harmful to some people in many of our lives.
	They don't want us to be loved.
	Because if we're loved, we can be virtuous.
	And being loved means people will encourage us to virtue.
	So I would say to your girlfriend, if you love this young man, and he's got a lot of integrity, a lot of smarts, he's a good person in many ways, has great potential for virtue, and is very honest in this conversation.
	If you love him, encourage him to honesty, which means stop lying to the people in your life.
	Stop avoiding, stop misrepresenting, stop fogging, stop manipulating, stop having surface shallow conversations, and you can have those surface shallow conversations, but not at the expense of deep ones and real ones.
	So she would encourage you.
	Now, if she encourages you to be virtuous and honest in your life and you go ahead and do it, then she'll fall really deeply in love with you because you will then be manifesting virtue.
	And she can't force herself to fall in love with you.
	That's something you have to earn by being virtuous.
	But you're kind of half and half, right?
	You've listened to this show with encouraging everyone to be virtuous, which is basically saying, be loved.
	I'm not encouraging people to virtue fundamentally.
	I'm encouraging people to Towards the experience of love.
	That's the great prize.
	That's the reward, right? People don't just say lift weights for no reason.
	People say lift weights in order to get muscles to be healthy, to be strong, to have strong bones, whatever, right?
	So I don't just tell people to be virtuous for no reason.
	I say because through virtue you find love.
	You can't get it any other way.
	And why do we go through the difficult, horrible things of being honest with the people in our lives and manifesting ourselves and being real and being truthful?
	Because the alternative is emptiness, the hollowness that you feel, right?
	Mm-hmm. And that's no fun, right?
	Imagine that for the rest of your life.
	That's no good. And once you step foot in philosophy, it's not something you just ride.
	This is like some old U-shaped horse that just dum-de-dums around some trail.
	You touch that horse and it's like you're down strapped to the back and good luck, right?
	You can't go back to just normie land.
	You can't go back to being unconscious.
	You can't go back to projecting all of your faults and being manipulative while thinking you're being virtuous.
	You can't go back to that. So when you're going through hell, what do you got to do?
	Keep going. You can't go back.
	And you're in a kind of hell, which is why you wanted to talk.
	And the hell is, okay, I have enough virtue to know that I can't be loved without it, but I don't have enough virtue to be loved yet.
	And so your ex is like this demon of history just saying, oh, come back.
	And, you know, if you come back to me and come back to unconsciousness and come back to your childhood and come back to not having philosophy, come back to a lack of virtue, come back to lust, come back to nothing.
	And everything will be fine.
	And your girlfriend, current girlfriend, is probably something like unconsciously like, no, no, no, we've got to move forward.
	We've got to, you know, I'm happy to help you.
	I really care about you. I want to be productive and productive.
	I'm not bullying you and, you know, I'll be nice to you and I'll be a positive force into your life.
	And your parents want you to stay back and your virtue and your heart wants to move forward and be loved.
	And this is the tearing part, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, I mean...
	It's...
	excuse me sorry it's because I absolutely need to get through this hollowness that I maybe Well, but that's honesty with your parents.
	And having the conversation and saying I didn't get enough...
	Well, I don't know what you should say, because I'm not you, but whatever it is, it has to be the most honest thing you could say.
	And have your girlfriend there.
	Because I don't think I could...
	I don't think I could even talk to them about, like...
	Maybe I have already. I'm trying.
	Okay, so listen.
	Obviously, you know I don't tell anyone what to do, right?
	There's choices and consequences, right?
	Now, if you can't do it with your parents or it's impossible or unthinkable, right?
	Okay, but then you can talk to a therapist, you can work through the issues with that, you can write letters, you can, you know, whatever it is.
	But at the very least, you need to be honest with your With your girlfriend.
	And say, I can't be honest with my parents.
	I can't tell them what I think and feel.
	I can't be honest with them.
	That's just the way it is. And I'm not proud of it.
	I don't like it about it. But this is the way it is.
	Because then you're being honest about dishonesty.
	And that's good. That's better than being dishonest about dishonesty and saying, oh yeah, my parents and I have a great relationship.
	Oh, can you tell them the truth? Oh God, no.
	Because then a great relationship and lying are the same thing.
	And how's that going to give her trust, right?
	Yeah, yeah, definitely.
	And, you know, maybe the first conversation is to have with your girlfriend and, you know, maybe play this or the roleplay or whatever and just say, look, this is where I'm at and I do want to earn love.
	You know, we've been two years if you haven't told me you love me yet.
	I respect you for that.
	I respect you for that because you're not going to say it if you don't mean it.
	I want to earn that. And I don't know how yet, but I know it has to do with more honesty.
	Is maybe one of the steps out of this, say, I don't know, maybe not nihilistic is the right word, but you know, this kind of like meaningless hold of this void, is that just kind of this sort of radical honesty in terms of just about not concealing really anything.
	Well, look, do you value honesty as a virtue?
	Do you think honesty is a virtue?
	Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so that's...
	Now you're screwed. Sorry, you're toast, man.
	Because once you say honesty is a virtue, I mean, deep down we know that anyway, but especially once you consciously know that honesty is a virtue, then being dishonest is acting against your values.
	Yeah. I think this is why, even though I knew at the time with the whole cheating thing, like I knew...
	Of course, it was wrong.
	Absolutely. But even years later, when the relationship's already over, that part of it is definitely still eating me up.
	It's like, what kind of person was I to do that to someone?
	Well, okay. Look, I understand that.
	But you have to give yourself some breaks because you were untutored.
	If I go to Japan and I don't know anything about the customs, for whatever reason, and I offend some people, and am I just a basically offensive person?
	No, I'm untutored.
	You weren't getting any help from your brother.
	You weren't getting any help from your parents.
	You weren't getting much help from your friends.
	My God, a friend who's like, oh, you're still obsessed with this woman who was destructive to you.
	You should probably get back together.
	It's like, come on, that's terrible advice, right?
	You know, if you're still thinking about heroin five years after quitting, you should just start smoking heroin again.
	It's like, no, that's not the answer.
	You've got to figure out why you're still obsessed with it, right?
	So you're friends. So who's helping you?
	You're trying to figure everything out on your own when you have massive titanic lusts coursing through your body, right?
	So, you know, it's not great, obviously, but, you know, give yourself a break.
	I mean, you're in your 20s, you were untutored, she was treating you badly, and you didn't have anyone giving you any good advice.
	So you were following the pleasure principle, right?
	So when you're attracted to this woman, you have a relationship with her.
	When she's treating you badly and some other woman is treating you nicely, you gravitate towards her.
	It's just following the pleasure principle, which is what we do.
	Without philosophy, without wisdom, without good instruction, we follow the pleasure principle.
	What else are we supposed to do? Pound ourself in the hand with a hammer?
	Because what? I mean, that'd just be random, right?
	Just go rob a bank even though we don't need the money.
	We don't just act randomly.
	We have to follow some kind of principle.
	And it's either... The principle of virtue or the principle of pleasure.
	It's either philosophy or hedonism.
	And so you were living a hedonistic life because you lacked philosophy, you lacked wisdom, you lacked feedback, you lacked coaching.
	So you follow the pleasure principle?
	Of course. Who wouldn't?
	I did. Before I really started to live philosophy, I followed the pleasure principle too.
	I mean, I don't blame myself for that.
	I kind of blame society for letting me twist in the wind and have to invent everything myself.
	But I'm not sitting there saying, oh my God, you know.
	Because, yeah, I was in a relationship and as a teenager and I kissed some other girl and it's like, I just follow the pleasure principle.
	Oh, this girl's closer.
	Oh, that's all right. It wasn't a big serious relationship, but nonetheless, right?
	It was not good. But I'm not, you know, kicking myself for it.
	It's like, you know, well, maybe society should have educated me a little bit.
	Maybe they shouldn't have gotten rid of God without coming up with some other morals.
	You know, maybe that was a bad idea.
	So, no, I'm not, you know, I'm not going to get mad at myself for failing to reinvent lived morality when I lived in a deeply amoral society.
	I mean, particularly to the 70s, sexual morality was truly demonic, just straight up devilish.
	And so, yeah, guess what?
	You followed the pleasure principle when you lacked philosophy.
	Well, duh, everyone does, right?
	I mean, you get mad at yourself if you want, but...
	That's why the people who profit from the pleasure principle oppose philosophy, because when philosophy comes along, the pleasure principle gets diminished.
	And there's literally hundreds of billions of dollars wrapped up, trillions of dollars around the world wrapped up in the pleasure economy.
	And if your girlfriend, she knew that she got you because of the pleasure principle, because she lacked virtue, but she was pretty.
	So then how can she get super mad at you for following the pleasure principle when she's making your life unpleasant?
	And then you wouldn't commit to her, so she found you pleasurable.
	And then when you wouldn't commit to her or you guys were fighting a lot, she turned to some other guy because it was more pleasurable for her to go meet up with an ex.
	Just following the pleasure principle.
	It's what we do in the absence of philosophy, and this is why philosophy is kept away from us, for the most part, right?
	This radical breakthrough is like, this show is like a thumb in the nose of this whole...
	So it's not just money, it's the whole sexual market value thing, right?
	This is why women spend more money on makeup than philosophy, right?
	Because they want people to follow the pleasure principle.
	So, yeah, I mean, if you want, you can go flog yourself and get mad at yourself and so on, but...
	All of society was conspiring to keep you on the pleasure principle.
	Society is founded on the pleasure principle these days and the entire economy and the government structure and voting and the media and everything and dating and the sexual market value and Tinder, everything is founded on the pleasure principle.
	Which is why people get so mad when philosophy comes along because, you know, I'd get mad too if something threatened my entire business model and worldview, both in the sexual and financial marketplace.
	So, yeah, I just, you know, I mean, you can get mad at yourself if you want, but I'd, you know, cut yourself some slack.
	You're just trying to navigate through life after having been lied to and uncoached for decades.
	I really hope I can do that either through therapy or however I'm listening back to this conversation later because it's really been like...
	Living with that, it was maybe just an extension of the pain of the absence that I was already feeling.
	Sorry, I hate to because I've almost done the conversation.
	I've got to get some food. But I will say this.
	Your parents want you to blame yourself.
	you understand right like so much of your life is run by your parents at the moment in my opinion right and that's fine right i mean i i wasn't hugely different at your age so don't feel bad right don't feel bad right i'm just pointing it out right is it more convenient for your parents that you blame yourself or that you hold them accountable to some degree okay that's a good question yeah uh definitely better if Yeah, of course. It's way more convenient to your parents if you blame yourself.
	Well, I'm just a bad guy. I cheated on my girlfriend.
	Yeah, it was not good to cheat on your girlfriend.
	Guess what? That's what happens when you follow the pleasure principle and you weren't taught any better, right?
	So, if you have complaints, start at the source.
	Start with the parenting. Start with your childhood.
	Now, once you've worked through all of those complaints and you've had people address them and listen to them, then you can move on.
	But don't start with yourself at the age of 27.
	Right? I mean, that's almost like saying, well, I guess it was foolish and ridiculous for me to pay for meals when I was 30 because I should have just breastfed.
	And it's like, no, that's inappropriate to the age and time, right?
	So, no, you did something that was wrong and I sympathize with it.
	I understand that. But you've got to go to the source of why you were behaving that way because you were uncoached.
	We've got to have some principle for doing things.
	We can't just behave randomly. So if it's not philosophy, it's the pleasure principle.
	If it's not religion or theology, then it's the pleasure principle.
	And you're just trying to displace the pleasure principle and replace it with actual principles as opposed to just hedonism, right?
	But yeah, if you're going to have complaints, oh, I drank too much, oh, I slept with another woman and so on.
	But you've got to go before that.
	I mean, I think. And your parents want you to stay there so that you feel bad about yourself.
	Because if you're feeling bad about yourself, you're not criticizing them, so they'd much rather sacrifice.
	Right? So did they know that you cheated, your parents?
	Okay. Right. So, like, should they ever find out?
	You ever confess, right? They'll be like, oh, I'm so disappointed.
	How could you do that? I've never done that, blah, blah, blah.
	Because they'd much rather you criticize yourself than raise any criticisms of them.
	And we saw that in the rather hysterical and aggressive and bullying response of your inner father to the roleplay, right?
	So, yeah, I mean, you get mad at yourself if you want, but you're just serving the agenda of people who aren't exactly looking out for your best interests.
	If I follow this path, do you think I can see the really good qualities in this girlfriend that I have, that I can actually turn this around a little bit?
	Because I'm worried that I'm wasting the time.
	Yeah, well, no, you pursue virtue.
	And everything else in your life will work out.
	No, pursue virtue and everything else in your life will work out.
	If you pursue virtue and you inspire her to create a virtue and then you both fall in love with each other even more, fantastic.
	If you inspire virtue and then her inner parents attack your relationship and she blows up at you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
	Because, you know, everyone thinks that all this terrible censorship is happening from the state.
	And yeah, I think there's certainly that aspect of it as well.
	But I mean, the real censorship is trying to be a good person and being attacked by everyone around you.
	We've tried to be a good person because it threatens their history and their own compromises and so on.
	So try not to manipulate an effect because virtue is not consequential, right?
	It's not consequentialist. That's pragmatism or utilitarianism.
	So you don't pursue virtue so that you can resolve things in this relationship.
	You pursue virtue to have integrity and for the goal of love.
	Now, if pursuing virtue generates more love in this relationship, fantastic.
	If it generates hostility and ends the relationship, not fantastic, but better than continuing in something where you can't be virtuous.
	You don't want to stay in relationships where you're punished for being honest because then you'll never know.
	Love. And this hollowness will follow you, right?
	And swallow you, perhaps.
	So you pursue virtue.
	And you say, oh, for its own, right?
	Virtue is its own reward and so on.
	And there's some real truth in that.
	But you pursue virtue because you just don't want to spend the rest of your days on this life lying and calling it virtue.
	It's humiliating, right?
	It's just a strength of organism thing too, right?
	It's really humiliating to be forced to lie.
	And you can't ever feel like a man, an adult, an adult woman.
	If you're just cowed and forced to lie because you're afraid of people, then you just really never grow up and you never stand on your own two feet.
	And you're a weakened organism and we strive for strength and we strive for power in this world.
	And if we are forced to lie, we lose power, we lose strength.
	And that's no good.
	It's never going to inspire anyone to love and all of that.
	So yeah, I would just be honest.
	Be honest with your girlfriend. Be honest with your parents if you can and everything that falls out from that will be In the right way.
	At least that's been my experience.
	I can't guarantee that for everyone.
	Your results may vary, but that's certainly how it's worked for me.
	Yeah. All right. Well, I really want to thank you so much, Stefano, for taking the time to speak to me tonight.
	It's certainly given me a whole new perspective on everything.
	I was really... I know I've watched the show many times, listened to the show many times, and I've seen things go in different directions before, but when it's your own story, you don't expect it to quite go that way, and it's really illuminating, and it's definitely shown me some things I need to look at in my life.
	It's my pleasure. Thank you very much for the call, and keep me posted about how things are going.
	I obviously really, really want to know how things play out, and I appreciate your time today.
	Take care, man. Thanks very much.

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