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Oct. 31, 2022 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:23:31

Happy Halloween Twitter!

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	Oh, look at that.
	Like a pro. Like a pro, I remember to unmute before doing my speeches.
	Oh, look at that. It's like I've done this before.
	Almost. Well, not completely, but totally.
	Happy Halloween. Spooky time of year.
	And boy, if you have kids, isn't it really one of the most fun times of year?
	This and Christmas. And birthdays.
	And weekdays. Weekends.
	And that weird little thing.
	February 29th.
	You ever known someone who was born on February 29th?
	I had a friend many years ago.
	He was born on February 29th.
	He was the youngest sibling.
	He always felt younger than his age.
	And his name, his name, my friends, yes, that's right.
	His last name was Young.
	Not Young as in Y-U-N-G, Mandela, worshipping, spiritualist, Africa hiking, psycho, psychologist, but...
	Y-O-U-N-G. Forever Young.
	Every time I hear that song, I don't know why, just going to share my little brain virus with you.
	Every time I hear that song, Forever Young, by Rod Stewart, or whoever did it first, but Rod Stewart did a great version, as he usually does, I hear, Loretta Young.
	I want to be Loretta Young.
	I don't know why.
	I don't know why.
	So, there it is. And I was playing an online game with my daughter and some friends of ours last night and somebody put the brain virus in because it was a game where you can artificially make someone else sound like a chipmunk.
	And he started singing some stick song, Come Sail Away.
	And I was like, literally for the rest of the night.
	Come sail away. Come sail away.
	Oh, these brain viruses, particularly the songs of your youth, because it just brings everything flooding back.
	So listen, enough of my rambling, enough of my yakking.
	If you have a question or comment or something you want to chat about, I am more than all ears.
	I am donkey ears. I am downright elephant ears for you, my friends.
	If there's something you want to chat about, just raise your hand.
	Otherwise, I've got an interesting question from the forum I can talk about, but this is your show.
	Well, hello, Steph. How's it going today?
	I'm well. How are you doing? I'm doing pretty good.
	I suspect that some people are going to want to comment on this whole Twitter affair.
	Your sort of dilemma or...
	Well, it looks like you made a choice already about going back on Twitter.
	And I just want to say that I totally support your argument that you posted earlier today that you would not like to rejoin Twitter.
	Because it would not be following your principles.
	It would not be integrity to go back to this platform, given the way they've treated you.
	I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me.
	It makes sense. I would also like to see you on Twitter going on the brand page with the laser eyes, but I don't know if it's going to become a healthy place.
	I don't know if It's really going to be as good of a thing as people expect.
	But I just want to say, you don't have to go back now.
	Even if it does happen to become a good place where healthy conversations can happen, you can still change your mind.
	Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean, I can still change my mind.
	You mean if I went back on, I could then choose to withdraw?
	I mean, you've chosen to not go back.
	I mean... If it happens to be that the platform does become better, that they do maybe make an apology that people are able to come back on and have a free conversation as it was at some point, you could decide to go back.
	And I don't think there's any rush.
	I think the most wise thing to do would be to just wait and see.
	Well, that's not really an option when it comes to moral choices.
	So I hear what you're saying.
	Now, I think it's interesting.
	It's not a criticism. I'm just curious.
	So the way you phrase it is, it's all up to me.
	Do you know what I mean? Like, it's your decision.
	It's your choice. You can choose to do this.
	You can choose to do that. I thought, I mean, obviously I didn't, but I thought I'd made it fairly clear.
	I have my standards, right?
	I have my standards for...
	If you go for a job, right, and the job advertises that it's going to pay you $40,000, right?
	And then when you get the offer on paper, it's only going to pay you $30,000.
	And you say, no, no, I'll take the job, but you have to pay me what you advertised.
	Like, you have to pay me the $40,000, which you advertised and which we agreed to in the...
	Interview, like the final interview, so $40,000, yes, $40,000, right?
	Then you get the offer letter and it's $30,000.
	And then you say, well...
	I'm not going to take the job for $30,000.
	You advertise $40,000.
	You committed to $40,000. Now the letter says $30,000.
	And I know that these are 90s figures, but what the hell?
	So would you say to someone, well, it's your choice whether to take the job or not take the job?
	Because, you know, if a company like that is going to lowball you or kind of rip you off, waste your time, is it a company worth working for?
	So it wouldn't be...
	Now, of course, if you write it back and say, or you call them and you say, well, no, we agreed on $40,000.
	What's with this $30,000?
	And then they call you back profusely apologizing and say, oh man, that's so bad.
	I'm so sorry. This makes us look like complete idiots.
	That was for another position.
	The letters got mixed up or the salary figures got mixed up.
	I'm so sorry. That's just awful and it's never happened before and it will never happen again or whatever, right?
	Well, that's fine, right?
	That's fine. And, you know, mistakes happen.
	It's not the end of the world and you can make your choice then.
	But if you say, look, the requirement for me taking the job is that it's $40,000 and then they don't give you $40,000, that's not just your choice.
	Like you're operating in a vacuum.
	You're in a relationship, right?
	And so I put out standards.
	For many years about a productive relationship.
	And UPB says that, okay, there's certain standards.
	The moral standards aren't just local, right?
	Like you wouldn't just say, well, I have one standard for business, you know, that I expect people, you know, to tell the truth and so on.
	But then in my personal relationships, people can lie to me completely or vice versa, right?
	So, I mean, it's not like they're completely identical, but I'm not operating in a vacuum here.
	You're sort of putting the entire onus upon me, right?
	And when you're in a relationship, the entire onus is never on one person, if that makes sense, right?
	So if someone does you wrong, then you say, okay, here's the standards by which you can make the relationship right.
	And I think that's a reasonable thing to do.
	And, you know, I get it that, you know, perhaps...
	Elon Musk seems to be in there to clean house and so on.
	So you say, okay, here's the standards by which the relationship can be repaired.
	Now, if the other person meets those standards, then I think you reasonably, if you said these are the standards you have to meet, then I think you have to, you know, have to, but, you know, I think it's reasonable to then resume the relationship, right?
	I mean, if your girlfriend is yelling at you and then you say, listen, you've got to go to anger management and you've got to stop yelling at me, and she goes to anger management and she stops yelling at you, I mean, you're not forced to be in a relationship, right?
	I mean, you can break up with her any time you want.
	But I think if you put out certain requirements and that people fulfill those requirements and then you don't, this is sort of an implicit contract.
	Again, not legally binding.
	You're not forced. You don't remove your free will or anything like that.
	So when I say, look, here are the standards that I require in this relationship, and these are universal standards, standards I've suggested to other people, as I said in my video yesterday, standards I've done my whole life.
	And people weren't like, oh, that's the most appalling thing.
	That's terrible, right? People were like, yeah, those standards make sense.
	So why would they make sense in one relationship but not in another relationship?
	That would be sort of a radical relativism or subjectivism.
	And so when you say, well, you can choose to do this, you can choose to do that, it's like, no, no, no, no.
	The ball is in the other person's court at the moment, right?
	So if you say to your girlfriend, stop yelling at me and take anger management courses...
	Then the ball is in her court.
	She can choose to accede to your requests or not.
	And so I'm trying to figure out why it's my decision kind of in a vacuum.
	And maybe I'm missing something. I'm certainly happy to hear, but that's sort of my first thought.
	Yeah, so I think I failed to make myself clear.
	I didn't mean that you should change your standards.
	I totally agree with the standards you've set for maybe or maybe not going back to the platform.
	I mostly meant to say that you should wait and see how they act In the next months and what choices they make, if they choose to make apologies, if they choose to make restitution, how they treat the people who've been banned, who've been censored, who've been treated unfairly as you have in the past.
	And just to say that there's no rush to go back now.
	I'm sorry. I don't mean to be Mr.
	Annoying Guy, but I'm just honestly baffled by the conversation here because when I said the ball is in their court and I'm going to wait and see what happens and I'm not going back now and if they fulfill these standards, then I would probably go back.
	So when you say, well, when I say, well, the ball's in their court and I'm going to wait and see what happens, and then you call me up with the sterling advice that I should wait and see what happens, I'm a little lost because this is exactly what I said.
	So you're kind of giving me the same advice back that I said I was going to do.
	So it's sort of like if I say, well, I'm going to go north tomorrow morning at 10 a.m., and then you call me and said, you know, you probably haven't thought of this, but it's really important that you go north at 10 a.m., And I'm like, well, I just said that.
	So again, help me. I'm missing something and I'm happy to sort of hear what it is.
	Okay, well, it appears that I was missing something due to a language barrier.
	I was under the impression that you had made a final decision and that people might disagree with the decision being final.
	Well, no, but if I put out, I mean, this is a communications issue, right?
	So if I say, here's the standards that would be required for me to return to the platform, you know, and now, I'm not expecting these standards to be met, right?
	But, you know, that's neither here nor there in a way, right?
	So you put out your standards, and I'm not expecting, obviously, Elon Musk ain't going to call me and say, dude, right?
	I'm so sorry. I get that.
	And so I'm not expecting these standards to be met.
	But I certainly did put out the standards and say, you know, these are what would be required.
	So that's, I mean, it's interesting because, look, I get, I understand, and maybe you're not in this camp, but I think for our conversation, our community as a whole, you know, there's a lot of people super keen that I go back on Twitter.
	And I understand that.
	You can make a very good, a very compelling case, you know, for the greater good, save the children, promote peaceful parenting, bring science and reason and evidence to public discourse.
	There's lots of things that you can do and you can say, ah yes, but because you're not out there...
	Promoting peaceful parenting, more kids are getting hit than others.
	I get all of that.
	I really do. And I'm not immune to the seductive nature of that case.
	So I really do understand.
	And this is sort of a persuasion thing.
	Not specific to you, but to people as a whole.
	If you want to persuade me, you must first really listen to me.
	And it's not just about me.
	This is in your life as a whole.
	If you want to persuade people...
	You must first listen to them, right?
	So a silly example would be if you want to sell – you're a car salesman and you want to sell some guy a sports car.
	And he comes in, walks through the door, and you're like, hey, I've got this great red sports car, a sunroof, a V8 engine, and it's perfect, and it's a great price today only.
	You've got to move quickly. And the guy's like – Actually, I just came in to use the washroom.
	I'm really sorry, right? And you're like, no, no, no, but this sports car, like you're not listening to him.
	Or if the guy comes in and says, no, I've got like, I got nine kids, like a sports car does me no good whatsoever, right?
	And you keep trying to sell him the sports car.
	So to be in sales, and I know that convincing people at a personal level is kind of, you know, reducing it to sales seems kind of cheesy and cheap, but...
	We are all in the business of trying to convince other people that our way is a better way.
	I mean in many areas, I mean every advertiser and if you're trying to get a girl to go out with you, you're trying to sell yourself to her and if you're trying to get a job, you're trying to sell yourself to an employer.
	I mean there's lots of – and sales is basically you're better off with me.
	You're better off with me, right?
	So you're going for a job and there's 50 other people looking for that job.
	You have to say, look, I'm the top 2% guy.
	You're better off with me than with everyone else.
	You're asking some girl out and you're saying to her, deep down, I mean, you're saying to her, and it's the more attractive, every attractive girl, a reasonably attractive girl has like 10 or 20 guys who are kind of shocks in the water.
	And so you're going to say, look, you should pick me out of these 20 guys.
	Pick me, pick me, pick me.
	Pick me out of the job applicants.
	Pick me out of the dating pool.
	Pick me out of, you know, I want you guys to listen to me and not listen to other shows.
	I don't particularly care that you don't listen to other shows.
	That's just a consequence of listening to me.
	But yeah, I want you to, I'm trying to sell philosophy to you.
	And so... If there's, you know, five trainers at the gym, I remember when I was at a gym and they had all these pictures of the trainers up on the wall, and every trainer is like, well, pick me over these other couple of trainers.
	So sales is kind of a big thing, and sales is you will be better off if you take my advice, listen to my perspective, and change your thoughts in accordance with what I'm saying.
	You'll be better off. So everyone knows the salesman on commission is better off if he sells you the sports car.
	Everyone knows that. That's understood.
	The car dealership is better off.
	The salesman is better off.
	Even the car manufacturer is better off, even if it's secondhand, because it raises the demand for their cars.
	And so if you buy a new car and the resale value of the The used market is better.
	It makes the car more attractive and so on.
	So everyone understands, like if someone's trying to sell you a sports car, everyone understands that everyone involved in making and selling you that sports car is going to be better off if you buy it.
	And so if I agree with people and do what they say, then they're better off, right?
	I mean, they're trying to achieve something, which is to get me to think in the way that they think.
	And so they're better off and I understand.
	But if you want to convince someone of something, The key is that you will be better off.
	Like the other person.
	You're talking to a guy named Bob.
	If you want to convince Bob, you're saying, Bob, you will be better off.
	Now, I know better off is kind of a vague standard, but you will be better off if you listen to me.
	Now, If you're going to say to someone, you will be better off if you listen to me, the first thing that you have to have done is listen to them very intently.
	Right? So if the guy comes into the car dealership and says, I have nine kids, you're not going to sell him a sports car.
	Because he's got nine kids.
	And if you don't listen to people first, and understand, I mean, I really appreciate this call, I really appreciate this conversation.
	I'm certainly not trying to pick on you at all, and I'm thankful that you sort of called in, but To convince people, you must first really, really listen.
	And if you just kind of skim through something and, you know, maybe there's a language barrier, okay, but if you know there's a language barrier, then you should listen and be attentive, right?
	So if you want to change my mind, and listen, I'm happy that you want to change my mind, I'm happy that it matters, I believe in free will, and I'm happy to, I want to change people's minds, or rather give them minds, so to speak.
	So I'm happy that you want to change my mind, and what I'm trying to do is tell you how to do that.
	Now, it's not that important relative to you and I talking today, but it's certainly important for your life as a whole, right?
	I mean, you've heard probably a bunch of call-in shows with me and people, and what I do is I will sometimes spend an hour to an hour and a half Often, like just asking questions, trying to get the backstory, trying to understand the patterns and the roles of people in his life.
	And if I don't, like if somebody's saying, well, my mom this, or my friend this, or my brother that, and I don't really get the other personality, I'll ask for a role play and have them imitate that person so I can get a closer sense of, right?
	I mean, if you're a doctor, you have to listen to the symptoms before you prescribe, right?
	You have to do your examination.
	And this is for all the people you're posting, right?
	And again, sorry that you're saying it as a proxy for all the people, and I appreciate that.
	I really do. I love the fact that you care enough about my Twitter thoughts, right?
	But they're posting, and they're just not addressing my arguments.
	If you want to change my mind, reason with me, which means listen deeply to what I'm saying.
	If there's an error in what I'm saying, say, well, here's what you said.
	Here's where I think the error is.
	But what most people do, and I want you guys to be happy and fulfilled and get what you want in life, and I'm really sweating buckets here trying to get you to get that, right?
	So this is like a dry run or a test run.
	If you want to change my mind, I put out an 11-minute video yesterday with probably about half a dozen arguments.
	Arguments from standards, arguments from reciprocity, arguments from history, arguments from corporate continuance, arguments from if you buy the corporation, you inherit the profits and the liabilities, arguments from you have to take the advice that you give to people, especially if you've given that advice consistently.
	I mean, I've given that advice consistently for 30 years, 18 of which have been public.
	And the argument against the temptation from power and influence and so on.
	I put a whole bunch of stuff.
	I try to be fairly efficient.
	And I put a whole bunch of stuff.
	And so if you want to change my mind...
	Then, make a note of the argument, or, you know, if you really, once you get the habit of this, once you understand how to do this, you don't have to write everything down.
	I mean, I have, in call-in shows, if somebody's got a really complicated, blended family, space aliens from Aldebaran, their third cousin's twice removed, I literally will diagram out a family tree, and I've had people do that, and I've written it down, so I make sure I understand that.
	And, of course, I have conversations with people, and afterwards I say, you know, was this valuable to you?
	Did it hit the right spots?
	Did it help? So, like, I want you guys desperately, I want you guys to get what you want and to be happy in this life, and part of being happy is getting what you want and having the right things to want.
	So... It's alienating.
	This is why I got a bit confused over the course of this conversation, right?
	Because what happens is, most times, what happens is people, like I'll put out this 11-minute video or 12 minutes or whatever it was, and then people are like, huh, well, I think you should go on Twitter, so I'm just going to tell them you should go on Twitter, right?
	And you're not going to convince anybody with any quality that way.
	You're just not going to because anybody with any quality would be like, well, okay, so you've said that you want me to go on Twitter, but I put all these arguments out.
	And if you're just here to tell me your feelings, I suppose that's okay.
	But people usually can't give their feelings without giving a reason, right?
	So the number of, like I put out the argument for corporate continuance, right?
	That you buy the corporation, you buy its assets and liabilities and Twitter is not Elon Musk, right?
	Twitter is a whole organization. With thousands and thousands of employees, probably a few less today and all of that.
	So Twitter's not just... Elon Musk is not running around making all of the platform decisions and de-platforming decisions on Twitter.
	I mean, maybe for big prominent ones they might float up to him, but it's pretty unlikely.
	You say, ah, well, but the people who were in charge of it have been fired.
	Well, yeah, but they hired people.
	They hired people in accordance with their values.
	So if Genghis Khan hires a bunch of people to be his horseman of the apocalypse and ride across Asia impregnating anything with a pulse and some things with tree bark, if Genghis Khan hires...
	The horse horde.
	And then you say, well, we got rid of Genghis Khan.
	He's been fired. Does that mean the horse horde has completely changed into an Amish pacifist society?
	No. So you can fire the people who hired all the people who agree with them.
	Then you still have the leftover of all the people who agree with them, who disagree with your firing and dislike you and want to mess up your tenureship and want to sabotage your New ownership.
	Twitter is not just a piece of paper, and it's not just Elon Musk.
	It's an entire organization.
	So I sort of put these arguments out, and then people would reply to me, and I got messages of people saying, yeah, but, you know, if someone crashes a car, and then you buy the car later, well...
	You're not responsible for the car crash because somebody else crashed the car.
	And, okay, that's an interesting analogy, but a car is an inanimate object and Twitter is full of people.
	So it doesn't really work, does it, right?
	So it would be sort of like if there was the drunken cab company, you know, like there's a company that most of its drivers are hammered.
	When they go around picking people up and those people get into a huge amount of accidents and harm a lot of people and so on, and then someone new buys the cab company, do you say, oh, well, the new guy who bought the cab company, he doesn't drink.
	So the cabs, it's like, no, but they hired all these people who drink and drive.
	So it's not like the company immediately becomes safe.
	There's a huge blob of people, you know, they outnumber one guy at the top, and the top matters, but they outnumber one guy at the top several thousand to one.
	What is it? Six or seven thousand employees at Twitter or something like that and literally probably 20 productive coders.
	Like a small software company is five productive coders and a couple of people sales, marketing, and management.
	And a huge successful company is probably 20 productive coders and then thousands of people floating around hanging off them.
	So again, I don't mean to pick on you, and I don't mean for this to sound negative.
	I want this to be really encouraging.
	If you want to change people's minds, really listen.
	Like when I would go for job interviews when I was younger, I would interview that person, right?
	So if I was going for a job interview, I would do a lot of research on the company.
	I would try and figure out what their needs are, what their preferences are, what their customer base is like.
	And when I would be sitting across the desk, I'd just pepper the person with questions.
	Well, what are you looking for? What do you need?
	What's the culture? What's the pain points?
	How are you guys hoping to grow?
	What are your barriers? What are your competitors doing?
	And so on. And I'd say, I'm doing this because I want to know if I can provide you a lot of value.
	And I can't provide you a lot of value if I don't know exactly what you're looking for.
	And because I wasn't just going for like, I don't know, short order cook or basic programmer, I had to sort of bring a lot of soft skills to the table.
	And I got almost every job I interviewed for because if I couldn't provide value, I would tell them that.
	You know, well, you know, it's really important that you speak French and Spanish.
	It's like, well, no, I don't. So, you know, thanks for the coffee, but I'll be on my way because, you know, whatever, right?
	Like, I can't provide that kind of value.
	Or it's like, well, you'll have to travel three weeks of the year.
	And it's like, I've done that before.
	I don't like that level of travel, so it's not going to be a good fit or whatever, right?
	So, if you want to change people's minds, listen, listen, listen.
	If people feel heard and understood, doesn't mean agreed with, if people feel heard and understood, then they will be very open to listening.
	But if you come in with your own thoughts...
	And try and change someone's mind without understanding where they're coming from.
	They will reject you almost every single time.
	And they're right to do that.
	And listen, I'm not perfect.
	Obviously, I have done this many times over the course of my public and private life.
	So it's something I have to remind myself.
	And Twitter, of course, is not very good for the listening because it's so compressed, right?
	It's an ADHD platform, right?
	Because everything's so short and you've got to be snappy and all of that.
	And of course, when I was on Twitter, I wasn't usually aiming to change the minds of the people I was talking to.
	I was trying to change the minds of people who were listening in, right?
	People who were watching a particular conversation, right?
	But yeah, if you want to change people's minds, you must listen to them, understand where they're coming from, absorb their perspective, And address their concerns in a way that they know you've listened and understood.
	So when I put out a video saying, well, these are my standards.
	I'm not expecting them to met, but we'll see, right?
	And then you say to me, you know, it's important to wait and see what the other person does.
	It's like, I just said that, right?
	So what it means, and now you can say language barrier, but if you know language barrier, then you're kind of responsible for dealing with that.
	And your language certainly seems pretty good to me.
	So again, I'm really, I'm not trying to make you feel bad at all.
	And anybody who's listening to this, please understand.
	It's just a bit of coaching, right?
	I'm saying this because I want you.
	If there's a really great argument that I haven't thought of, love to hear it.
	If I've made a mistake, love to hear it.
	I don't want to make mistakes.
	It's an important decision. So if you care enough To respond to me, and I'm not talking about, you know, the fine person on the line, who I love you for bringing this up.
	I really do. This is wonderful, and I thank you, and again, I want to be as encouraging as possible, and it's also a good reminder for myself, because I forget this, right?
	We all run our agendas and want other people to do what we want, and we don't often take the time to listen, so I have to remind myself of this kind of stuff as well.
	But yeah, it's really...
	And the reason why this big speech, I guess, is kind of coming out of me is I spent the last...
	I first talked about this on Friday, I think, and I've just spent the weekend with messages coming in with people not addressing my argument.
	And, you know, if you're into philosophy, right?
	I mean, read your Socrates or read your Plato talking about Socrates, who knows what Socrates actually said.
	And he spends a lot of time.
	What does he do? He asks questions.
	Ask questions, ask questions, ask questions.
	Make sure you understand the other person's perspective.
	And it's a shame, right?
	And it tells me a lot, of course, about how most people are raised or parented that the parents are just like, well, just do this, right?
	As opposed to really trying to understand where the child is coming from, right?
	So, yeah, I just wanted to put that out there because if you master this, one simple trick and your eye bags will be gone forever, right?
	But if you master this, That changing people's minds is listening, listening, listening.
	Absorbing their perspective.
	Now, you might find out, here's the thing, interesting thing.
	You might find out that in absorbing somebody else's argument, they change your mind.
	Okay, that's good. Because if they're right, you don't want to change their mind into your perspective, which is not right.
	But the listening, listening, listening, it saves so much time.
	Listen, listen, listen. It saves so much time in terms of where you expend your resources in trying to get people to change their minds.
	So, yeah, I hope that long, hopefully not too annoying, spiel or blurb was relatively helpful.
	But listen, I'm certainly happy to be corrected on this as in any and every other thing.
	So I've given a long thing.
	If there's a response that you want to make, I'm certainly happy to hear.
	I think I'm just going to thank you for the very valid criticism and very valuable advice that you've given me.
	I've sure been in a bit of a rush lately, and maybe I didn't think long enough until I bring this up.
	So thank you for that.
	I appreciate that. There's a coarse old statement that one of my old business partners told me when I was a young buck hotshot coder entrepreneurial guy.
	And he said, you know, there are a bunch of cows down in the meadow and up on the hill there's a young bull and there's an old bull.
	And the young bull says, let's run down the hill and have sex with a cow.
	And the old bull says, no, no, no, no, kid.
	No, no, you got it all wrong.
	What you want to do is walk down the hill and have sex with all the cows.
	Now, it's kind of coarse and makes me both hungry and thirsty, but there's some kind of truth in it, right?
	There's some kind of truth in it, which is patience in planning can get you a lot more resources in the long run, so...
	Great, great topic, and thank you so much for bringing this up, because I was sort of thinking about this this weekend, that this is probably something that needs to be reminded of, just how important it is to listen before giving advice, and of course the whole point of social media seems to be to yell at people without listening to them first.
	All right. Oh, lots of people who want to chat.
	How lovely. Monsieur LeGreg, if you wanted to unmute.
	Wait, who did I get there?
	Yes, I think I got.
	Yes, I think I got. Go ahead, Greg.
	Go ahead, Greg. Oh, is this me here?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	Oh, okay. Oh, yeah.
	Hey, I do appreciate all your good work.
	You really help people.
	Thank you. Yeah, as far as the Twitter, you know, everything seems so personal about it to you.
	I mean, it's personal. Me, I'm off Twitter.
	I lost 20...
	20 fans or whatever.
	But you lost a lot more.
	So it seems all personal.
	Now, I've been screwed by many corporations.
	You know, I got a Ford.
	I don't want them to apologize for the Yetzel.
	So I just don't know if there's a gray area you ain't going into.
	What do you mean? What do you mean?
	Well, I mean, sometimes you've got to step through the mud to get to the other side of anything.
	And there's a lot of people I know you helped on Twitter.
	So, you know, I don't know.
	I guess it was the YouTube videos more.
	But, you know, you said some profound things on Twitter, even when the riots were going on, you know.
	And so I think you helped a lot of people.
	So it's the helping that's getting sacrificed.
	Right. And do you remember, I don't know if you watched the video or have heard any of my arguments, but do you know what I said about that?
	Well, you can nutshell it for me if you don't mind.
	Wait, are you giving me advice without having listened to what I've said about it?
	Which is fine, but...
	Well, I'm sorry.
	I may have listened to about 20 minutes about things.
	I don't know if you've added more or anything else like that.
	Yeah, okay. I'm sorry, I'm just because you've got a wicked echo going on here, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to mute you because otherwise it's a little distracting to hear myself.
	Lord knows, apparently I'll have to hear myself.
	So yeah, the effect, the good that I can do.
	Yeah, of course, I mean, there's good that I could do, without a doubt.
	I mean... I did the rough back of the napkin calculations and my one infamous Taylor Swift tweet probably caused about 60,000 new people to be born.
	So, yeah, those 60,000 people, absolutely, and without a doubt.
	But here's the thing, right? So, if you study economics...
	There's this famous, I think it was FDR, who said, Lord above, can somebody send me a one-armed economist?
	And people said, well, why? It's like, so, for once, I don't have an economist saying, on the other hand, right?
	So, if I focus only on the good that I can do on Twitter, then that decision becomes easy and incomplete.
	And incomplete. I mean, if you love the sensation of dropping, like you love that drop on a roller coaster, right?
	And this, again, it's a silly example, but we might as well start with the extremes to make the point, right?
	So let's say that you love that feeling of dropping, right?
	There are these water parks that you can go to where you sort of fold your...
	Hands like you're a body in a coffin, which hopefully you won't be, and then you drop on this tube, and it's a pretty heady and wild sensation to just drop.
	When I was 16 or 17, I went in the middle of winter skydiving, and it was a wild experience.
	I absolutely loved it.
	While at the same time, it was like the most appalling near-death thing I'd ever experienced in my life, because you go up on the plane, you're above the clouds, you jump out, And your whole body tenses up because you've never fallen that long without significant injury and or death, right?
	And so, like I remember when I went up, I still have a scar on my left knee from when I was a kid.
	And I went up to the roof of a garage to get a tennis ball.
	And my friend encouraged me to jump down.
	I jumped down, my knees buckled, and my two front teeth went into the top of my knee.
	I literally still – I can tell – like this is prior to – I wore braces for a little bit as a kid.
	So I can still see the crooked teeth implant on my knee 50 years later.
	So I – you can – if you like the falling part, right, and you say, well, okay, so the only decision matrix is will I be falling?
	Then you can say, well, I could jump off a bridge, or I could jump off a building, and I like the falling experience.
	So if you only focus on the falling experience, it's like, well, why wouldn't you do something that's fun?
	It's like, well, because that's the plus, but the minus is you hit the ground like a watermelon and die.
	So if you're only looking at one side of the equation, you can't make good decisions.
	And this is a young man's thought, a young woman's thought, a young man I'm a bit more familiar with, which is, yeah, she's kind of crazy, but she's really hot.
	So, boy, the sex will be fantastic and all of that.
	So, if you're only looking at the benefits, but not the costs of some bunny boiler stalking you or reporting you to the authorities for something you didn't do, then it becomes a fairly simple decision, right?
	And, of course, economics is all about Don't just look at the visible benefits, look at the hidden costs.
	So if you say to me, Steph, you can do some good on Twitter, of course I can do some good on Twitter.
	That's no doubt. I mean, if I couldn't do any good on Twitter, it wouldn't even be a question.
	Like, if I couldn't do any good on Twitter...
	Let's say that there was some evil Cartesian demon between me and the Twitter service that turned every tweet into the exact opposite of what I was saying, right?
	Then clearly I couldn't do any good.
	I guess I could try and reverse it.
	But then, you know, sometimes they would reverse it.
	So if there was some intermediary that corrupted what I was trying to do, then there would be no temptation to go on Twitter.
	So the only reason why the question arises as to whether to go back on Twitter is because I can do some good on Twitter.
	No question. So if you say to me, Steph, you can do some good on Twitter, I'm like, I know.
	That's why it's even a question.
	But I pointed out the negatives of all of that, which is what does it do to my credibility with the future?
	What does it do for my credibility with myself?
	When I say...
	You don't have to be in abusive relationships and it's probably wise, if the relationship is relentlessly abusive, it's probably wise to not be in that relationship.
	And if you've been in an abusive relationship, you should have some standards for returning.
	Now, if somebody has, I don't know, some abusive mom and she's dying and she's got a lot of money And this Bob with his mom.
	And if Bob reconnects with her, he gets a million dollars probably in the inheritance, right?
	Okay. So then Bob calls me and says, I don't know what to do.
	And if I say, well, the only dimension that matters, the only dimension that's important, the only dimension that exists is plus one million dollars.
	Well, Bob wouldn't be calling me if he was only looking at one positive, the major positive, and ignoring everything else.
	So if I were to say to Bob, well, come on, I mean, just take the million dollars.
	As if there were no other variables.
	Then I'm not helping Bob.
	In fact, it's kind of corrupting.
	And I'm not saying this is conscious and I'm not referring to your intentions or anything like that.
	But it's an attempt to manipulate people if you only focus on the positives...
	Without the hidden costs.
	Right? So, you know, with regards to the welfare state, you say, well, it supports a lot of people in need.
	Sure it does. But it's also created a lot of people in need because they could make bad decisions and get money for them.
	And it also is creating dependency upon the welfare state, which mathematically cannot sustain itself.
	And what's going to happen when you've lured all these people and the dependence on the state and have them made all these decisions, but dependence on the state, the dependence on the state can't continue.
	It stops. Or it gets...
	Diluted through inflation or, you know, whatever's going to happen, right?
	So if you say, well, it's supporting a lot of people.
	Well, that's not the only dimension.
	And there's a lot of dimensions to these kinds of decisions.
	So if you go up to someone and say, well, Bob, you get a million dollars, just go see your mom.
	That's an attempt to control Bob and manipulate him, frankly, because you're not absorbing the complexity of the situation.
	I mean, so many years ago I tripped over, I was carrying a bunch of plates, I tripped over the open door of a washing, a dishwasher.
	I tripped and I cut my thumb deeply.
	So I went to the hospital and I got stitched up.
	It was fine. A little numb in spots, but no biggie, right?
	Now, if I'm sitting there bleeding and you say, ah, you know, it's a long way to the hospital and it's probably going to be kind of busy and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	It's like, okay, so without a doubt, there are negatives to going to the ER in Canada, right?
	There are negatives to going to the ER. I mean, I once went to the ER when I was on my cancer treatment because I had a wicked sore throat and I needed it because I was immunocompromised back then.
	And they said, oh, well, if you're immunocompromised, you can't sit with people.
	You've got to sit over in this other area far away so you don't catch anything.
	And they literally forgot about me.
	It's wild. They forgot about me.
	And I didn't want to go back in because I was immunocompromised.
	I didn't want to go into the coughing sick room of people.
	And eventually, after I don't know how long, I went in and they're like, oh, right, right.
	Ah, excellent. I'll be sure to tip you on my way out.
	So I'm sitting there, you know, I've got a big deep gash in my thumb, goes to the bone, and you say, well, you know, it's going to be time-consuming and you're going to have to wait and, you know, you're going to use up gas and wear and tear on your car to get to the night, right?
	Okay, so that's just the downside.
	The upside is, well, I get stitched up and don't lose a lot of blood and don't end up with some weird skin flap and all this kind of stuff, right?
	And this is why listening is important.
	Because if Bob says to me, well, you know, I could get a million dollars if I go and see my mom, but, you know, she brought an abusive man into my childhood and kept him there for years, and it was almost destroyed as a human being, and she's refused to admit any faults or guilt, and I'm trying to raise my kids to have integrity, and I don't want to feel like my soul is for sale, and I don't want to pretend that my inner child wasn't wounded by her just in return for money.
	That's a big, complex decision.
	And if you are trying to boil someone's decision process down into only one variable, then you are trying, not consciously, I assume, and again, I don't want to sound like Mr.
	Negative, Mr. Critical, but it's a great temptation.
	If you can boil something down to one variable, and you will see this all over the place.
	This is like Matrix-style ripping off the eyelids.
	Well, I shouldn't say that because you kind of need your eyelids.
	Ripping off the blinders. When you see everything reduced to one variable, that's propaganda, that's manipulation, that's an attempt to hijack another person's sovereign consciousness and control them.
	And again, to the fine listener who's calling in, I'm not accusing you of trying to do any of this in terms of like, oh, I'm going to plot to change Steph's mind.
	But it's when you see this, it will blow your mind.
	You pick up any newspaper or just go to any news site and what do they do?
	They boil everything down to one variable.
	No complexity, no history, no depth, no nuance, no balance.
	Right? And, I mean, war is the worst of all of this.
	It's all boiled down to a single cause.
	And nothing else is allowed.
	Or as the old Norm MacDonald joke went, you know, I'm studying history and isn't it amazing?
	The good guys have won every single time.
	I mean, what are the odds? So, when you see this, boil it down to a single variable.
	Exclude any other complexity.
	So, if people say, well, Steph, the syllogism goes something like this.
	Steph, you want to do good in the world?
	Yes. You can do good on Twitter?
	Yes. So, go on Twitter.
	Because it's, you know... As if going on Twitter against philosophy, to promote philosophy...
	If going on Twitter violates my values, violates the advice that I've given to others, violates the advice that's been incredibly productive in my own life, violates good principles.
	And I made this case in my short video from yesterday that it's the fruit of the poison tree, right?
	If the whole tree is poisoned, the fruit...
	Isn't good for you. Can I do good on Twitter by violating my virtues?
	Now, you could say to me, Steph, your virtues are incorrect.
	And that's an argument or a debate.
	I'm perfectly willing and happy to have about any aspect of what I say.
	Everything that I say is open to questioning.
	Of course, right? I'm a blank slate kind of guy, right?
	You wipe everything clean, you start building from scratch.
	No legacy support, so to speak.
	I'm not Windows. So, yeah, I'm perfectly happy to have, you know, and you say, well, look, I've given this advice.
	You could say, well, that advice is bad.
	I've given this advice that if you're in an abusive relationship or if somebody has done you great harm, speak to them, give them the chance to respond, give them the chance to make amends, to apologize, to show how it's not going to happen again.
	And of course, you don't have to do any of this, but I think that's reasonable if the relationship is important.
	So I've given that advice.
	It's reasonable advice. It gets good advice.
	Now, you could say, Steph, it's been bad advice for 20 years.
	You've been telling people, it's wrong advice, bad advice.
	Hey, I'm happy to hear that.
	And if it has been wrong and bad advice, Then I will, you know, make my apologies and all of that, right?
	And alter what I'm doing going forward and try and figure out how I ended up giving such sort of bad feedback or advice or suggestions.
	But then you also have to take on Christianity as well, because this is straight out of my Christian education, right?
	If somebody sins against you, go and speak with them in private, give them up to three opportunities to apologize, to make restitution, and after that, well...
	Do what you will, but you're not obligated for anything.
	And again, that doesn't mean it's right.
	I'm just saying that it comes out of a place slightly more important.
	If you think that advice is bad, then you've got to go deal with the Christians, not with a relatively obscure philosopher by this point.
	So if you just try and reduce things to one variable, and listen, this is not a habit that people just wake up with one day.
	It happens because it's all just reduced to one variable for us in order to control us.
	Right? This politician X is an existential threat to our democracy.
	You can't possibly...
	The only way to save democracy is to never, ever, ever vote for these people.
	Is there express purpose to end democracy?
	Well, no. Okay, so they're participating in a democratic process which is supposed to have multiple people you can vote for.
	But if you vote for this guy who has no intention of ending democracy, that's the end of democracy, right?
	So just reducing everything to one variable.
	That variable isn't even particularly true.
	Man, you'll see this all over the place.
	Everything is reduced to one variable.
	And you see this, of course, in economics.
	I see this in economics all the time.
	Well, you see, if the government subsidizes green energy, well, that's better for everyone.
	Look at all these new jobs that have been created.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah. Boring, boring, boring.
	Who cares? Who cares? Who cares?
	You don't know a thing. Because that's divisible gains.
	What about all the jobs that weren't created?
	What about all the technology that wasn't created?
	What about the corruption of giving governments the power to hand out billions of dollars to various corporations?
	What about all of that?
	What about the fact that the money is stripped from people either directly through taxes or indirectly through inflation and money printing and same thing?
	No, one variable.
	The government spent a billion dollars and created 5,000 jobs.
	Well, isn't that good?
	That's 5,000 more jobs!
	Just reduce everything to one variable and it's a manipulation technique.
	It's a propaganda technique.
	Now, you know, everyone thinks that propaganda is somewhere out there.
	And again, I have to be pretty strict with myself and remind myself because I'm as susceptible to this as everyone.
	But every time I'm tempted to reduce things to one variable, of course I can do good on Twitter.
	Of course, otherwise it wouldn't even be a question.
	But there's good in the short run, and then there's good in the long run.
	And philosophy, right, has to be about good in the long run.
	Philosophy is like the science of nutrition.
	Nutrition is not about health tomorrow, right?
	I mean, if you have appendicitis and they cut out your appendix, that's about health tomorrow, or at least not dying tonight.
	So that's immediate, right?
	Surgery is about health tomorrow, right?
	I had a tumor, went into the hospital, came out without a tumor.
	So yeah, surgery is like health right now, and that's fine, right?
	That's great. But the science of nutrition, if you're having a heart attack, you don't call a nutritionist.
	The nutritionist will say, well, maybe I could have helped you 10 years ago, but right now you've got to call an ambulance, right?
	So I have the longest possible time frame.
	I've said my business plan is 500 years.
	And I'm not saying that, look, obviously you don't have to know everything I've ever said, so I'm not holding anybody accountable for this.
	I'm just telling you that. My business plan is 500 years, right?
	There's a reason why my novel The Future is set 500 years in the future.
	Freedomain.locals.com, you should get it.
	It's fantastic. So I have a 500-year business plan.
	What are people going to think of me 500 years from now?
	Because it usually takes a couple of hundred years, at least, for a philosopher to be truly understood and recognized.
	Because you're going against so much delusion at the moment that you look crazy.
	Or you're going against so many supposed moral absolutes that are wrong that you look either crazy or immoral or anti-moral.
	So it takes...
	A long time for a philosopher to be properly evaluated.
	So my view of these decisions is not, can I help people on Twitter tomorrow?
	That's not what it's about.
	How will this decision be viewed in 500 years?
	Or 50 years or 100 years.
	That's my metric.
	So saying you can help people on Twitter tomorrow, yes, I can help people on Twitter tomorrow.
	I mean, I know it's not tomorrow, he's got to go, but you know, just for the sake of argument, right?
	But will that cost me credibility in 500 years?
	Now that's my metric.
	Now maybe it's not 500 years because of social media and blah blah blah, but When I make an argument, I'm not thinking about how it's going to be received by, you know, the hysterical mob in the here and now.
	Of course not, right?
	I mean, that would be to be guided by crazy people.
	I am...
	There's a great phrase from Yes Minister.
	He's got this really velvet-voiced, oily bureaucrat.
	In the fullness of time, minister, in the fullness of time.
	It's a great British phrase, in the fullness of time.
	People were so appalled at Socrates, they put him to death.
	How do we look at him now?
	How long did it take for Socrates' reputation to be restored?
	John Locke had to flee the country and take refuge in Holland.
	My ancestor and he were chased halfway across Ireland by the king's men.
	The king's men tried to entrap him into speaking treason.
	They tried to extradite him from Holland.
	You know, he was viewed as a pretty bad guy by a lot of people at the time.
	Nietzsche sold almost no books in his time, and it really wasn't until the disasters of World War I that Nietzsche and Freud became more prominent.
	Because they were at least striving to answer questions that nobody even knew existed, but that World War I revealed.
	So, my time frame is in the centuries, because that's how long it takes for philosophers to be appreciated.
	Attacked in the present, appreciated in the future.
	That's the gig. I'm doing a whole history of philosopher series.
	You may have noticed this pattern.
	And again, I'm not expecting anyone to know all of this about me.
	I've said this stuff before, but of course, you know, it's like 5,000 shows.
	Of course, nobody's heard all of this.
	I get all of that. But that's why if you want to change someone's mind, it's important to ask questions.
	So if you say to me, well, you can help people on Twitter tomorrow, well, I know that.
	Of course I know that. You're not telling me anything I don't know.
	And if you try and change my mind by telling me something I already know, I'm not going to listen.
	Like, even if I want to be polite, I might sort of politely, hmm, yeah, that's what's interesting, but I'm just not going to listen because you haven't asked me any questions.
	Because it's such an obvious plus that I could help people on Twitter tomorrow that there must be something that is pushing against that.
	Right? There must be something that's pushing against that.
	And if you just tell me the single variable benefit without any of the other costs, well, government spends a billion dollars, creates 5,000 jobs.
	5,000 jobs is a plus, so you must be behind it.
	I mean, who wouldn't be? Because you're just looking at the visible gains, not the hidden costs.
	Do you run down the hill or do you walk down the hill?
	Run down the hill, have sex with one.
	Walk down the hill, have sex with them all.
	I mean, that's a combination of R and K selected, but it's a vivid way to sort of remember these things.
	If I help a thousand people now and don't help a billion people 50 years from now, is that a good calc?
	Well, it's not. And again, it's not pure utilitarianism or just number crunching, but these are the variables that I'm working with.
	Because my entire graduate school, undergraduate and graduate school education, the vast majority of it, the stuff I studied the most and focused on the most was the history of philosophy.
	History of philosophy series doesn't come out of nowhere.
	where in fact I'm directly reading from my graduate school thesis from 30 years ago so I know the history of philosophy and the history of philosophy is the history of people willing to sacrifice Immediate gains for long-term gains.
	In fact, they're willing to swallow immediate losses for the sake of long-term gains.
	If not going back on Twitter gives me greater credibility in the future, well, the future is the variable I'm working with.
	Because philosophy is language, and language doesn't change anything in the moment.
	Even if it changes some people's minds, it doesn't change anything in the moment.
	You build a house, you have a house.
	You talk about building a house, you don't have a house.
	The people who first started talking about the free market never lived to see it.
	The people who first started talking about ending slavery never got to see the end of slavery.
	So, saying to me, you could help some number of people tomorrow, we're sure.
	Thank you.
	But those aren't really the variables that I'm working with.
	They're not unimportant, of course.
	But yeah, so when you're trying to convince people, I guess this is our convincing conversation, right?
	Trying to convince people, number one, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen.
	Make sure you understand where that person is coming from before you try and change his or her mind.
	Thank you.
	And secondly, do not reduce things to one variable or you will lose credibility immediately.
	All right. Thank you very much.
	Somebody else wishes to talk.
	AYY. I'm not even going to try and figure out how to pronounce that.
	But you are on the air if you wanted to just unmute yourself.
	I am more than happy to hear.
	Okay.
	I believe I should be on now.
	Yes, go for it. Okay.
	Hi there, Stefan. So I believe this is my first time speaking with you.
	I've been a long-time listener since I was actually a teenager now.
	So I want to appreciate and thank you for all the work you've put out and you've helped me definitely find a bit more in, I guess, self-knowledge.
	But my question I had for you is I recently listened to the read broadcast of the Bomb and the Brain series.
	I'm so sorry. Could you just repeat that?
	I couldn't quite hear what you were saying.
	You were listening to which podcast series?
	Well, it was actually the recent rebroadcast of the Bomb and the Brain series.
	Oh, yes, yes. So I was rewatched all that and it's great stuff.
	But I was wondering now, in the search for a therapist, is there like, because I've always kind of worried about, you know, not finding the right one as sometimes, you know, it can do more harm than good.
	But is there particularly like a group or network of therapists that you might know of or recommend?
	Yeah, I've interviewed some therapists and some psychologists on this show.
	And internal family systems therapy I thought was quite interesting.
	Again, I'm not going to recommend any school or any individual therapists because I don't know enough about them.
	And if you recommend a school, that doesn't mean, of course, that any individual who claims to follow that school is actually following it or does a good job or anything like that.
	So... I do think – I have a whole podcast on this, and I don't know exactly how much it will be in congruence.
	I think it's FDR 1929 or 1927, but it's called How to Find a Great Therapist.
	So I think there are some good questions, and so there may be some deviations because that was many years ago, so this is not some sort of mirror exercise, but – I think there are good questions to ask somebody you sit down with.
	So you sit down with a therapist, it's a job interview.
	I had a good therapist for some years and before that I had a therapist.
	I went for one session and I could see the guy half falling asleep and it's like, okay, so there's no fire in your belly about this kind of stuff.
	So I never went back and once I went with a girlfriend to a couples counselor and it was just appallingly bad.
	And So you're interviewing for a job.
	You're trying to hire someone to help you with your issues.
	So I think, you know, ask the person, what's your philosophy of therapy?
	And are there any moral elements to your therapy?
	And what is your relationship to abusive relationships?
	Like if there's a relationship in my life, no matter what, that continues to be abusive and I can't fix it, what's your philosophy of that?
	Now, if they're like, for me, again, if they're like, well, you just got to hang in there and make it work somehow.
	And it's like, so are you saying I should spend 30 years in an abusive relationship if the person won't change, right?
	So I think just trying to figure out the moral elements, their purpose and goal of therapy, How will you know when I'm better?
	And also, you know, what is your view of the relationship between difficulties as a child and difficulties as an adult and all of that?
	And just try and get a strong sense of...
	And also, you know, how do you...
	Another question for a therapist is, okay, so let's say that I individuate, right?
	So individuate is...
	I think it's a Jungian term and it basically means when you...
	Stop accepting things as true and start really thinking for yourself and coming to your own conclusions.
	It's the process of individuation.
	You're no longer highly ambitious because your dad wants you to be or criticized you if you weren't or whatever, but you're no longer pursuing X degree because your dad says that's the only degree that means a damn and he wouldn't support you in anything else.
	You're outside of external pressures and you're really thinking for yourself and trying to reason out what's best for you and best for...
	So I would say if I was talking to a therapist, I'd say, so if the goal is to sort of get me to think for myself and no longer just be like a pinball bouncing off other people's preferences and pressures, do you have a way of helping me to navigate a society where very few people do that?
	I mean, this is one of the great things about therapy, and it's one of the terrible things about therapy.
	The great thing about therapy is I'm a huge fan of talk therapy, and it can really help you remove automatic reactions and automatic, quote, thinking.
	And all of that. And, you know, if you're raised in an abusive environment, you end up by force of necessity becoming a people pleaser.
	And so when you stop trying to please people and start trying to think for yourself, okay, so there's a lot of blowback and there's a lot of aggression and how do you fit into society where few people are thinking for themselves, right?
	Because if people think, oh, you know, I'm going to deal with my childhood trauma and everything's going to be great after that.
	It's like, okay, so now you've dealt with your childhood trauma.
	Fantastic. I would always recommend that.
	And now you have to live in a world where very few people have dealt with their childhood trauma and will end up acting it out.
	So, I mean, it's great, you know.
	It's great to get healthy.
	And one of the traumas of getting healthy is recognizing how few healthy people there are around.
	And if the therapist is like, oh, no, none of my patients have ever had that issue, the moment that they start thinking for themselves and have worked through all their trauma, they just fit in perfectly to society.
	What? So, yeah, I mean, these would sort of be questions.
	I mean, I've always said, like, philosophy is a whole lot of hell before there's heaven, right?
	I mean, it's really tough to go through that process of starting to think for yourself because you realize...
	How many lies there are in society, how much manipulation and control there is in society, and how few people actually care for you.
	People say, oh, I really, really care for you, and there's lots of exceptions, but in general, there's this process where you start really thinking for yourself, Really questioning those around you.
	And all the people who say, well, I love you, it's like, okay, but the me has to be the me that thinks for himself.
	It can't just be the me that pleases you or conforms to what you want or satisfies your needs in the moment, right?
	Because then I'm just like a utility, a tool.
	I'm just a tool to serve your narcissistic needs.
	I'm not my own person. I mean, if I say, well, I don't love you, but I sure love that you make me feel good by conforming to my preferences, it's like, well, that's not really a you then, right?
	It's like claiming to have a deep relationship with the mirror, right?
	I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.
	So, I've always said, you know, and then after you go through individuation, after you go through dealing with your childhood trauma, and, you know, whatever relationships require, like, survive that sort of airstrike of reality...
	Well, then you have a challenge, which is society is not exactly getting saner these days.
	And what do you do as a sane person in a crazy...
	This is the old thing. If you're locked in an asylum, do you want to take the sane pill?
	I don't know. Sometimes it doesn't really feel like a good plan, right?
	I should have just stayed crazy before I knew I was in an asylum, right?
	Right. You should have just taken the blue pill and just ignorance is bliss.
	Yeah, absolutely. There's a strong case to be made in terms of short-term happiness and relief for that.
	Yeah. But the downside being that everything we have of value is people who didn't do that stuff, right?
	Everything we have of value in this life is people who didn't do that.
	So, yeah, I think really interview the therapist.
	You know, what's the plan? What's the goal?
	And, you know, how are we going to work on this stuff?
	And, you know, what's the plan to have, like, what's your plan and experience in trying to work with society as a whole when you really start thinking for yourself?
	Because society is almost defined as people who don't think for themselves.
	So, I mean, those are questions that I think would be fairly important to ask and at least I could say those are the questions that I would be I would be working on.
	Does that help or make any sense?
	Yeah, no, it definitely does.
	I just know there's all sorts of different kinds of therapists.
	Some that are supportive, some that are not supportive.
	There's so many facets of ways that therapists can do stuff.
	As you mentioned, it's a job interview.
	Not every job is going to suit the person and their needs.
	And I guess now there's another one I've noticed, like a way of therapy.
	I don't know. Now, would you recommend seeing someone in person?
	Or I know there's a lot of like kind of online video calls because I know definitely being there with a person in the same room is a lot more impactful than might be on a computer screen or Yeah, I mean, I think if you can, in person is probably better, but I would choose a quality therapist remotely than a less quality therapist in person, if that makes any sense.
	Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well.
	Yeah, yeah. I don't know.
	I mean, I don't do therapy, right?
	I'm not a therapist. I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist.
	But, you know, I try to give people some philosophical feedback on their lives.
	And, of course, I do it without even eye contact for the most part.
	I mean, I've had very few people who I can see what's going on.
	In fact, I can't think of one.
	That's happened that way.
	So I've got to just go off silence and breathing and audio cues and stuff like that.
	So I'm going to say that I think you can get some decent feedback online.
	Again, not that I'm doing therapy or anything, but I think you can.
	And if it's the right person, then I think the online thing is less important.
	Understood. Well, no, that definitely helps kind of answer my questions and I'm just glad that it seemed to help you a lot and I'm looking to, you know, find somebody that can definitely help me through on this journey we call life, so...
	Good. Well, I appreciate that and good luck.
	I remember doing these interviews back in the day just about, you know, in terms of how much talk therapy could really help happiness.
	Talk therapy is...
	You know, it's really appalling just how few people in life actually get listened to.
	It's kind of one of the... I guess it's kind of a theme, right?
	I mean, which is to really, really listen to people.
	Well, I always run it by my friends.
	You kind of... I go, you know, like with my friendships, those are my family kind of.
	So it's all...
	We talk about our deep issues and all that stuff at the same time.
	You know, they're not like, I guess, therapists that might know how to handle or, you know, give advice on things.
	But yeah, definitely...
	So therapy is wild in a sense because therapy is in many ways a recreation of a parental relationship and often it's the recreation of a parental relationship that you didn't have or didn't get.
	So when you're with your friends or when you're talking with another adult, it's a mutual situation.
	But in therapy, it's not.
	In fact, I think there's kind of like a rule in therapists.
	I mean, if you're saying, oh, I'm having all these troubles with my mom, I don't think a therapist is supposed to say, oh, you think you've got problems with your mom?
	Man, my mom is a piece of work.
	And then, you know, they spend 45 minutes telling you about all their problems with their mom.
	And then they say, well, that'll be $150, please.
	Right? So it is one-sided.
	Right? In that sense.
	And in that sense, it's very much like how parental relationships go when you're young, in that parental relationships when you're young are one-sided.
	And you provide resources to your children, and it's not reciprocal in that sense.
	So in adult relationships, you can't just...
	It's not about I, me, me, I. It shouldn't be, right?
	But... In a therapist relationship, it is about I, me, me, I because what you're providing in return is money, not attention.
	So you get to really focus on yourself and you have somebody who's just there for you.
	They're not there for themselves.
	They're not there to run their agenda or talk about their problems or whatever.
	And it's not like, well, okay, you've got an hour of therapy.
	Half an hour will be your problems, says the therapist.
	Half an hour will be my problems.
	Well, in a friendship, you'd kind of want things to even out to some degree.
	But in therapy, the therapist is solely focused upon you and your needs and your preferences, and it's not reciprocal in that emotional way.
	And that's, of course, early childhood.
	When we have parents, of course, good parents, they'll focus on our needs and not...
	Not their needs, right? Right.
	Kind of what you just mentioned, the whole palm and the brain series.
	Right. So therapy, again, I think this was sort of in hindsight many, many years after the fact.
	But I think some of my experience in therapy was somebody really listens.
	Somebody really, really pays attention.
	And this is why I can tell people who haven't gone through therapy because they tend not to be as good listeners because they've not had that experience of the power of listening.
	And It is a way of saying, I'm going to be completely selfish in this relationship.
	I mean, it's not completely selfish because you're paying, right?
	But I'm going to be completely selfish emotionally in this relationship.
	It's going to make it all about me.
	And then when you have that experience, if you're constantly hungry, you're always looking for food.
	When you finally fall, you stop looking for food.
	And when you have been really listened to, Then that feeling of never being listened to is in the rear view.
	Now, again, you have to pay people and it's kind of sad and tragic, get away, but it's better than nothing for sure.
	But that experience, I've really been listened to and it was very powerful.
	Okay, so now I, you know, through therapy and all of that, I mean, this was long before I got married and all that, but through therapy and all that, it's like, yeah, I went through the experience.
	Man, I really got listened to, you know, three hours a week for two years.
	I really got listened to. And that filled me up.
	So now I can really listen to other people and I don't feel like, oh, but nobody ever listens to me, so to speak, right?
	So I think that's another sort of side effect or benefit that it is a form of reparenting, which is one of the reasons why therapists have to be very careful about the sort of power that they wield and so on.
	So sorry, you were going to say? Here I am, you keep trying to talk about something.
	Well, it's really important to listen to people.
	Let me keep talking. Sorry, guys.
	That's the thing is I am very much a listener.
	So that's why it's kind of awkward to me when I speak to people about my problems because I've always been the one listening.
	Well, no, but that means that you were expected to provide resources as a child, probably to your parents or others.
	And it was not reciprocated.
	It's not like you were just a born listener.
	It's just like, oh, well, if I have needs, people get mad at me.
	Okay, I guess I'll just listen. Yeah.
	No, yeah, that's like, that's, I mean, making those connections, like something like that, you could make it because like, yeah, that would make sense, you know, from my parenting or, you know, expected to, you know, be emotionally there but not receive it back, let's say, and then it's like, well, Why am I good to listen?
	Oh, that's a good connection to make.
	So I guess, yeah, kind of finding answers that way.
	Did you have the overwhelmed parents?
	Often it's the mom, it can be the dad too.
	The overwhelmed, which is like, oh, I can't bring any problems to mom because she's hanging by a thread as it is.
	Well, there are definitely those days, yeah, like we got to step on eggshells, but primarily, oh, I just blanked out.
	Yeah. Well, I'll just say, like, for my father, he just always was working, you know, doing his thing, and not really emotionally there, so it's like, yep, you know, didn't really have much of a connection with my dad, but for the mom, that's kind of all the connection I had, and as far as kind of the...
	Oh, that's what I was going to mention.
	Very protective parents.
	Conservative Baptists.
	Very protective. A lot of things.
	Sheltering. As far as my mom.
	Emotionally manipulative. That's one thing I was able to figure out as I listened to your show more.
	Pointing out these things.
	How my parents were parenting me.
	It's like, oh. You know, that wasn't the right way to do things, but that's kind of all it did.
	And, you know, it is what it is, but they kind of deal with the effects of it, which in turn of me not really having any sort of connection with my family, at least emotionally or...
	Kind of seeing them physically because that's kind of the relationship they built.
	But yeah, I always remember the instance of where, let's say, she might have done something, just like petty arguments or something like that.
	But I was the one always to say sorry.
	I was the one that was always wrong.
	Yeah, no, I've been in those kinds of hellscapes.
	It's like, okay, well, the future is held hostage until I grovel.
	And yeah, that's no...
	That's no fun at all. And it's a funny thing too.
	Like if people say, I love you, it's like, wow, boy, you must really love me thinking for myself then.
	My original thoughts and conclusions and stuff I'm reasoning out for myself, boy, that's the most me part of me is my original thought and my independent reason.
	The most me part of me. So it's like, well, I love you, but only your toenail clippings from last week.
	It's like, well, they're not really...
	Really part of me.
	Like, I love you, but only if you part your hair in the center.
	It's like, well, that's not really an essential part of me.
	The most essential part of anyone is their independent, sovereign thought.
	You know, right or wrong, good or bad, you know, but that's the most you part of you.
	Nobody says, well, I love you because you've got two elbows, which we'll never touch.
	So, yeah, it's a funny thing.
	If you say, I love you, it's like, okay, well, here's the most essential part of me.
	Oh, no, I don't like that. Yeah, I only like you if you be this way and not your actual, like, your true self.
	Well, which means I only like you if you're not there.
	Mm-hmm. There's a line from an old Sheryl Crow song, if you want to reach me, leave me alone.
	Like, yeah, I love you as long as you're not there.
	Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's funny.
	During my later years, I would always tell her, like, just leave me alone or something like that.
	So long. My very first sentence, according to my family history, I don't remember it particularly, but my very first sentence was, leave me with what I'm doing.
	That was my very first complete sentence as a baby.
	Leave me with what I'm doing.
	Yeah, because I was working on something and other people were a negative.
	Leave me with what I'm doing.
	They weren't supportive. Yeah.
	Yeah, and so, you know, deplatforming is just leave me with what I'm doing.
	It's like this fulfillment of what I wanted as a baby.
	So, yeah, it's kind of funny. But, yeah, so...
	Comes first poker. It is.
	Yeah, it's really... So, yeah, having somebody who really listens to you, it's, you know, once you taste something other than prison food, you can't go back to prison food.
	And once you've actually had someone really listen to you...
	And, like, therapy, it doesn't work if they're only in it for the money.
	They have to kind of care about you and your potential as a human being.
	And so, if you really...
	Once you've had that experience of somebody really listening to you, boy, it's, well, A, you can't go back and B, it's pretty obvious when people are trying to drag you back there to, like, not listening and making empty statements and, you know, using you for their preferences and, yeah, it's no good.
	Yeah, that definitely clears up a lot of things to consider about, especially if it's a job interview.
	I've got to find the right one.
	It might take a little bit of searching, but it'll happen.
	Oh, and if there's one person you hire that you want to get right, it probably is the therapist.
	Because if it goes well, it's fantastic.
	And if it goes not well... It's pretty bad, I think.
	So yeah, I would say that's one where I did pour quite a bit of effort into trying to find the right one.
	And when I did, it was, you know, pretty easy and productive and positive to go forward with that.
	But yeah, it took a little while for sure.
	And then I think you mentioned journaling was in conjunction with that.
	Yeah, I mean, she didn't give me homework or anything, but I definitely had, I certainly took that opportunity.
	I'm a young single guy. At the time.
	And so I had the time and I was – yeah, I was like – I remember going to – I used to live downtown Toronto and I would go to the local diner and I would have some eggs and toast and I would just – Write, write, write, write.
	Oh, I had this dream and I would argue with the people in my dreams and I just like wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote about all of this stuff and that journaling was very helpful for me because it's kind of like internalizing the therapist.
	The therapist really cares about what you think and feel so then you have to start really caring about what you think and feel and then it becomes pretty tough to unseat you.
	When you become the horse, you can't be thrown off the horse so to speak.
	Yeah. Well, you know, I don't want to hold up too much for anybody else wanting to talk in this call here, but I'm glad that I was able to catch you on one of these, I guess, live streams since, you know, I've been listening for so long.
	And I figured maybe one day, one of these days, I'll run by a chat with you.
	So I do appreciate it.
	And yeah, I know maybe one of these days across the lake.
	Yeah, yeah. Well, I appreciate that.
	Thanks for calling in. I mean, the questions you guys bring to me, the comments and then the interactions are, I mean, this is why I love doing these live streams.
	Love you guys as an audience and participants in what I'm doing so much because, boy, you know, I'm just like a flint here sitting in a stream and then you guys come up and we strike our heads together and we get sparks and flames and fire and all kinds of cool stuff.
	So thank you, everyone.
	Yeah, so much for dropping by today.
	I'm hungry and...
	It sounds so petty.
	People don't like it when I eat on the show.
	No, that's totally fine. I understand that me chewing in your ear and your brain is not necessarily the most pleasant thing.
	So, yeah, I'll stop here.
	But thanks, everyone, so much. What a wonderful chance to chat.
	Today, this week, yeah, I could do Wednesday.
	Friday, I have something on, so the show will probably be later, but I'll keep you posted on Locals and all of that about that.
	FreeDomain.Locals.com. Don't forget my free books, AlmostNovel.com, JustPoorNovel.com, and FDRURL.com slash TGOA. On Locals, I posted...
	The Origins of War and Child Abuse, the book by the late Lloyd DeMoss that I read.
	It's 10 hours and it's really, really important stuff.
	Really important stuff. And I hope that you will check that out.
	Freedomman.com slash donate.
	Lots of love, my friends. Bye.

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