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Jan. 29, 2022 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:46:04

"HELP - MY FATHER WANTS TO ARRANGE MY MARRIAGE!" Freedomain Call In

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	Alright, so here with the listener, I guess this is, would you say, an emergency?
	It seemed pretty urgent in your email.
	Do you want to describe your situation?
	Do you want to read the email?
	What's your preference? Yeah, I'd prefer to describe the situation from the big picture first.
	Go for it. I really just feel that my...
	that...
	Once you control my life and it's just I feel that I suffered from heavy, heavy, very heavy depression and procrastination and just well just addiction as a way of escape from feeling that I'm not living my own life and it's just so hard now because I'm reaching the age where You get pressure to get married and the issue is that my dad wants me to marry someone from his tribe and for me dating is very taboo in my dad's culture so we'd be in an arranged marriage and I just want to sort of live my own life and date whoever I want and I'm attracted to other women as well that are from different races or ethnic ethnicities but then it makes it so hard because it's the culture issue,
	my family might not approve of them and then just the whole interracial issue and then having mixed children Even though I am technically mixed as well, I am not fully from my father's ethnicity.
	I still feel that because I'm in college and I'm studying a very good economically lucrative field that I feel that my father is trying so hard to get me back into his grip so that I just Do everything for his tribe, you know? Just marry from his tribe, do what he wants me to do, and I don't know, you know?
	Yeah, just overall, I don't really feel that I'm living my own life, and I've spent pretty much this whole year depressed in bed, really.
	I've not really lived my own life.
	I cannot really say that I genuinely I've lived my own life and with my mother I have a much better relationship, much more open, I can discuss pretty much anything but with my father I just feel that I can't really be honest with him because I feel like I always have to please him and make him look good and meet his expectations and the majority of my life has been about Feeling guilty if I don't meet my former's expectations.
	And it's just terrible.
	Absolutely terrible. Is this something that, you know, there's a first generation, second generation thing.
	I'm sure you're even more aware of it than I am, but it's sort of first generation, second generation thing with regards to people in new culture or new country and so on, that the first generation tends to be pretty hardcore for the old school, the old way of doing things, and the next generation tends to be kind of in the middle.
	And is this kind of common among your peers, this Difference between the old way of doing things and the new or Western way of doing things?
	Is that something more common or do you think it's singularly hitting you?
	Yes, yes, it's very common. It's very common.
	I have friends who just are very different from their parents' culture.
	Some of them do involve in their parents' culture or they do try to meet their parents' expectations.
	They also just struggle with, because they've been raised, grew up more in the Western world, they're more used to the Western culture, and then they just live daily life, meeting people, and most likely will be someone from a different ethnicity.
	And then I know people, they have relationships.
	And it did work out in the end for them.
	But for me, I find this so difficult because my father's ethnicity as well, they actually had to flee stuff like war and genocide.
	And I do want to help them.
	I do genuinely want to help them.
	But I feel that it's not enough to just help them.
	They sort of want me to marry from them as well so that I create a generation of them being settled in the country I live in right now.
	Yeah, they want to continue the culture and the morals and the mindset that they came from, which is, you know, you can understand that.
	I mean, I'm not saying you should necessarily sympathize with it, but you can certainly understand that.
	I mean, it is a bit of a challenge, right?
	Because I'm not saying that I don't know the history, and of course I know we're keeping this fairly blank, but it always strikes me as kind of interesting that people who've had to flee, you know, war...
	Genocide, civil war, starvation, and so on and like, well, our culture's great, and we should really try and reproduce it in the culture we're fleeing to.
	And again, I know that some of these conflicts come out of Western imperialism and the military-industrial complex, particularly out of America.
	So I'm not trying to blame each victim culture.
	But if you come and say, like, my mother was a little bit this way, quite a lot this way sometimes, in that she would basically, you know, Germany is a great culture and so on.
	It's like, yes, but You couldn't stand to live there after the war, so you fled.
	And so wherever you're fleeing to should have, I think, some fair allegiance in your mind's eye.
	Because where you're fleeing from is obviously dysfunctional to one degree or another.
	And, you know, like if I was rescued from this planet by anarcho-capitalist space aliens...
	I wouldn't necessarily say, hey man, you guys really need government.
	You guys really need taxation.
	You guys really need intergenerational debt.
	You guys really need coercively to fund your schools.
	Even if I wasn't my way inclined, I'd be like, wow, you guys can travel between the stars and you have all this, you know, you can reverse gravity and all this cool stuff which comes out of the market because the government wasn't interfering.
	I wouldn't necessarily say, well, you know, the society that I came from was really dysfunctional.
	Your society is really functional.
	So what you really need to do is adopt where I came from at the expense of where you are and everything that got you where you are.
	I mean, this is particularly true with separation of church and state stuff.
	You know, like Europe went through hundreds of years of religious warfare and then said, we've got to separate church and state.
	And then, of course, a lot of cultures come in and say, well, you know, the state and the law and the religion should all be kind of one and the same.
	And it's like, you know, we did that.
	You know, we gave that a shot.
	And it was actually quite a lot of shots and stabbings and hangings and burnings and all that.
	So I just sort of wanted to point out that it is...
	A challenge when you've got these kind of cultural mixes, because from your parents' perspective, it's like, well, this is the way they grew up.
	This is the best way. This is the good way, even though they had to flee the country that they were in.
	And, you know, the Western way, the voluntary way, the free market way, particularly in romance, Well, that's not good.
	And it's like, yeah, but that's kind of part of why you fled and why you fled to the country you fled to with more of that voluntary stuff.
	So it is definitely tough for the second generation.
	Third generation, not so bad.
	I'm not trying to tell you your life or anything like that, but that's sort of what I've discussed with a number of people who have been immigrants even before I did the show.
	Yeah, I think there's two or three reasons.
	I would say the main reason they feel that they are in the right is because they say that They were forced to flee because the government in the country they came from was perpetrating all the war against them.
	And if it wasn't for the government perpetrating the atrocities, they would be staying there.
	But at the same time, I also feel that it's very inter-tribal, so it's really inter-tribal in the country where they're from.
	Oh, so one tribe has control of the government and they're using it to dominate the other tribe?
	Yeah, that's the issue.
	It's very inter-tribal. Because it's so inter-tribal, they've become almost very insular.
	They've become very secluded.
	Sorry to interrupt, but that's the challenge, right?
	Which is that if tribalism is causing problems, well, more than problems, is kind of creating a disaster in their home country, then what they're fleeing is tribalism.
	So then when they come to the West and they're like, well, son, you've got to be totally tribal.
	It's like, you know, didn't you just leave this whole tribal stuff for very important reasons?
	Like, why are we doing this tribalism thing?
	Because tribalism is kind of what you're running from.
	Yeah, that's exactly how I've become you know I've grew up really in...
	The Western world, I was born in my parents' country of origin.
	Well, I did grow up from a very young age in Western countries and I just felt very...
	I became my own person and I just didn't really care about, you know, ethnicities or tribes or any of this stuff.
	But for them, it's really very difficult.
	I do understand where they're coming from, but it's become so bad that Because the tribes look different from each other.
	I would say, for me, it's borderline racist because it's all based on ethnic purity now.
	If I marry someone that's not from my tribe or from a different tribe, Then, in their mind, they see it as, oh, my children won't be as ethnically pure as them.
	Hang on, sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt.
	I just want to make sure I understand something.
	Because earlier you said that you're ethnically mixed.
	So it seems odd that there would be ethnic purity when you're ethnically mixed.
	Those two things would seem to me to be somewhat opposing values, so to speak.
	Yeah, because my father did go against the grain.
	And my mother did struggle with prejudice from my father's side.
	Not all of them, but...
	So he married outside of his tribe?
	Not first time around.
	No, no, but for your mum, right?
	Yeah, yeah. So how the hell, excuse my French, how the hell does he get to tell you to marry inside the tribe when he married outside the tribe?
	When you're literally the product of him marrying outside the tribe?
	Yeah, because...
	He doesn't explicitly say that he wants me to marry from his tribe and I've spoken to him as well to see what his opinion is on the whole having children thing with someone from outside the tribe and he did say it's up to me and he does say he prefers I marry from his tribe or as close to his tribe as possible but deep down I know even if I married any woman from the same race as me They would still view her as an outsider.
	They would still be like, no, she's not from the same tribe.
	Well, hang on. Sorry. Again, I apologize.
	I just want to make sure. But marrying someone the same race as you, what would that be if you're a mixed race?
	Black. Oh, sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	I hate these biological divisions, but they're part of the issue that you're dealing with, right?
	So if someone were to marry the same race as you, that would be a bit of a challenge, right?
	Because you're a mixed race. Yeah, it's just because I am mixed race, but I would say black passing.
	Okay, got it. Not with that horrible one-drop rule or anything, but in terms of the visuals or whatever, people would look at you and say, black, right?
	Yeah, yeah. Okay, so then there is this racial purity aspect with regards to your father, but if I understand this correctly, it's not primarily around race.
	It's just that the race tends to strongly overlap Yeah,
	because even if I married another black woman from any country, And if it was somebody who was not black, but who for some reason or another was raised with the tribal ideals of your father, how would that land?
	I think they would be more accepting, but I would say because the rival tribe has been waging war against us, they are more, I would say, ethnically mixed.
	And this is why the whole tribal...
	Oh, sorry, they being the opposing tribe?
	Yeah, the government, they're more ethnically mixed and this is why it's so sensitive when it comes to the culture and...
	Ethnicity part because my family views it as, okay, we are the original black ethnicity and they're trying to sort of wipe us out and commit genocide against us.
	And it's almost like they make me feel like it's my duty To also marry from the exact same tribe I come from.
	Right, because you're being wiped out, you should replenish.
	Is that something like...
	Yeah. Yeah, I've heard that from other cultures and ethnicities as well, who face a lot of persecution, so...
	Yeah. Okay, so...
	So it's not just black, it's black in a particular tribal context.
	Yeah. Because they know the women who they would be happy to have as your wife, as their daughter-in-law, because they know these women, they would like to arrange your dating life.
	Is that right? Yeah.
	Yeah, the best case scenario would be that my father or his relatives would select a wife that is connected to their family and their tribe.
	Right.
	And it would most likely be from back in their country of origin as well.
	Oh, so you would – because you, of course, have, I guess, Western citizenship.
	And so if you marry somebody from the country of origin, then she would come to you.
	So there wouldn't be a situation where you would go to her, right?
	Yeah.
	And then she would bring her relatives and so on, I guess, at some point with her as well, right?
	I think that's the future plan, but for now I think it's mostly the wife.
	I'm not too sure, but I think they most likely would want to do that.
	Oh, well, I mean, if the country is in war and there's genocides and so on going on, yeah, I would imagine that there would be like what they call chain migration, right?
	That there would be this, you know, you'd get the wife, you'd get her parents, they'd get their cousins and all of that, right?
	And then they would sponsor further people.
	That's the airlift situation out of these war-wracked countries.
	Yeah, I 100% believe this is the main plan because when I visit my relatives, sometimes they...
	I always complain about how other ethnic minorities are so well-established and they take care of their own communities and our ethnic community is so disenfranchised or in a low population.
	They want to be as established as other ethnic communities to build their own ethnic, I would say, even ethnic enclave or, let's say, just help their ethnic community.
	Yeah, no, it's straight up tribalism.
	I mean, you don't have to go into great details.
	I mean, this is most of human beings throughout most of human history is, you know, genetic in-group preference in my tribe and my culture and so on, right?
	So yeah, I guess they feel outnumbered relative even to other ethnicities, let alone relative to whoever, right?
	So yeah, they want to bring more people in.
	And of course, you would have higher value being able to offer Western citizenship to somebody from Yeah, I would not even say it's the, sorry, what was the word?
	The papers, the passport?
	Oh, citizenship. Yeah, citizenship.
	I would not even say it's citizenship.
	That's the main driver.
	It's the biggest driving force.
	Because I go to college and I'm just studying a very promising...
	Right, right. So yeah, you're going to make a lot of money, for sure.
	Now, but what would you have in common with a woman, because you were born in your parents' country of origin, but you grew up in the West.
	So given that you've grown up in the West, I'm not sure how much you would have in common with people from...
	with a woman from your country of origin who hadn't grown up in the West.
	Yeah, I would say the only thing I would have in common is just the language and just the family, relatives.
	Other than that, not that much.
	I do know about my country of origin, but not even that much.
	Sorry, but this is the other thing that happens with immigrants as well.
	I'm sure you're aware of this, right? So when immigrants leave a country, let's say that your parents left in, I don't know, 1980 or 1990 or something like that, right?
	So what happens is they leave the country of origin and they bring like this bubble.
	And the bubble is the way the country was back then.
	Now then, the country changes.
	The country changes as it moves forward, you know, for better, for worse, whatever, but it changes.
	But your parents are not part of that change.
	In other words, if they had stayed in your country of origin, there would have been changes that would have occurred in that country.
	But because they left, they bring kind of a snapshot or a photograph.
	Of the country. Of how it was, right?
	And now that country is different, but your parents are kind of stuck in time.
	Because they're not part of that new flow of whatever the country is.
	Like I had a friend of mine whose parents had left a European country in 1960.
	Now that European country had gone through immense changes.
	You know, since. But the parents hadn't.
	Because they come and they hang around with other people who left that country in 1960.
	And they just hang on, like grim death in a sense, to the country as it was, which no longer exists in the present.
	And it's just a pretty wild thing that occurs.
	And it's sort of like these movies of someone gets frozen in a glacier and then they thaw out and it's like 50 years or 100 years have passed or all of that.
	And this frozenness of culture that occurs when people leave a host country is something that...
	it's almost like a place without a home.
	Because if you stay in the host country, then you're part of those changes and you're part of the living, breathing country.
	But if you leave, you kind of carve off a bit of that country and it no longer changes.
	And so the host country, even if you went back, you probably wouldn't feel that comfortable anymore.
	And the country that you've moved to, you kind of want to retain your values, but those values don't exist in your country in the present anymore.
	So sorry, it's a bit of a complicated way of putting it, but that's a real challenge.
	Yeah, yeah.
	When I look at my relatives, they are really in their own bubble.
	They do interact with other people from other cultures, but it is very insular.
	It's very closed off.
	I do see my father's friends Well you know culture is kind of efficient.
	Because your parents would meet people from their country of origin, and particularly if it was the same tribe or ethnicity, it's like, okay, I know the values, I know the language, I know what's expected.
	If I were to travel to Japan...
	There would be language issues, there would be cultural issues, politeness issues, even height issues, so to speak, right?
	So culture is very efficient and for people who, but this is why they have what, I mean, it sounds almost like the expat community, right?
	In other words, you know, like this used to happen, British people would go to Panama and they'd all live around other British people and they'd speak English and they'd have tea at three o'clock in the afternoon and they'd play tennis and And they just create this little bubble, right?
	Germans who went to Russia in the 19th century, they went early in the 19th century, and then they fled with the Communist Revolution.
	And for 100 years, the people who lived in Russia still only spoke German.
	They didn't speak Russian. They still worshipped in German churches, according to the Lutheran tradition.
	And they had never integrated.
	And of course, that doesn't sound like something that your parents are particularly interested in, is looking at sort of Western values, so to speak, and saying, ah, you know, but we've moved here, so we should really try to adapt to this host culture, right?
	That's not really part of their thinking, right?
	No, no, no, definitely not.
	Because I feel they're so very afraid of...
	That if they integrate, they'll lose the culture.
	And then when it comes to me as well, if I marry now any pretty much, let's say non-African women, non-black women, then it will be the biggest example of them losing their culture or losing their ethnicity.
	Because their ethnicity is very tied to them being completely ethnically pure.
	But also, you're also right that when I look at my country of origin now, it does seem to become more progressive, like more Western even, like they're banning FGM, for example, and even more stuff, and it's becoming more democratic.
	But I'm not really sure how free it will become just yet, because for me, I don't know how to describe it.
	Listen, I totally get it.
	I'm not saying I get it to the deep emotional level that you get it.
	I went from England to Canada, which was certainly a transition, but not as big a transition, and I get where you're coming from.
	In other words, your parents are like a slice of decades ago, that country.
	That country is progressing, but your parents aren't part of that progress.
	And so even if you were to adapt because they value their culture of origin, if you were to adapt to your parents' culture and then you were to go back to their country of origin, you'd be like, hey, this is not the same.
	It's not the same as it used to be.
	And so, yeah, I just sort of wanted to...
	I really do get where you're coming from.
	Again, my own immigrant experience is not quite as wide as yours, but the similar patterns kind of exist.
	I mean, can you imagine... I have my vision of...
	This is one of the reasons I don't go back to London.
	I mean, I have my vision of the London that I grew up in.
	And I left over 40 years ago.
	And if I were to go back to the London that is now, it would be unrecognizable to me.
	There is no... Now, of course, if I'd stayed in London, the change that I would have had to accommodate would have been incremental and I would have adapted and all of that.
	But being away for 40 years, if you go back, it's like, well, this is completely different from what I left.
	And I could not go back to London and feel at home.
	And, you know, that's just a reality.
	And so you do end up a little bit rootless, I guess, because you can't be rooted in your parents' lives.
	Yeah.
	And it's, you know, man, I feel for you, man.
	This is a really challenging, complicated situation.
	It reminds me of another friend of mine I had when I was younger.
	And he was born in Canada, but his parents were Indian.
	And he enjoyed dating around.
	But he was never very successful at dating, but he did get some dates and all of that.
	And his parents were like, you know, you're getting into your late 20s.
	We've got to get you settled down, my friend, right?
	And he was like, well, you know, I got it.
	He's like, yeah, but you've been trying and, you know, you can't really get relationships that last and all that.
	Don't worry. We know exactly what to do.
	So they called up, I think the newspaper was called India Today, which was It's back pre-internet, I guess, right?
	And what you did, of course, was you took out an ad.
	And you would then receive letters from women, I think in India, or maybe locally, but who were raised with sort of, I don't want to say Indian values, like it's just one big blob.
	That's like sort of saying African values, like it's all different countries, right?
	right?
	But whatever the, the, the, um, the, the values that, that would be more compatible.
	And they would take out these ads and they would forward to him these letters and these photos.
	And he was absolutely disgusted with the entire process.
	He felt like he was on an auction block.
	He felt that his parents choosing his wife was weird because again, he'd grown up in the West, right?
	So, you know, there's not a lot of romantic comedy movies that end up with a postage stamp and, you know, somebody being shipped over to box from India, so to speak, right?
	I mean, this is not how, how things play out.
	And of course the other thing too, is that, you know, If you are, again, dangling Western citizenship to somebody in a country that desperately wants to come to the West, you don't know if they're coming for you or for your money or for Western citizenship or whatever.
	It's tough to feel like they just love you.
	You know what I mean? Yeah, that's my biggest fear.
	My biggest fear is...
	I could try to ask my father to date or have an engagement for say a year.
	And then to sort of see the personality of the woman, of the arranged wife and then figure out if she's the right person for me.
	But I feel that the incentive is just too big to come here because I might become very financially well off and then the citizenship and it's just a huge escape from Their economic situation and also the war and this is why I struggle so much because on one hand I do want to help them but I also feel guilty.
	Wait, sorry, help who? The people from my ethnicity, from my tribe back in the country of origin because I look at videos on the internet and I see how they struggle and I almost feel a sense of obligation that I'm supposed to Marry them and then bring them here and then take care of them and make a generational thing.
	But then I feel like I'm not really living my own life.
	I'm living the life my parents or my family wants me to.
	And it's just so, I don't know, it's so depressing.
	Right. Was this expectation made fairly clear to you fairly early in your life as a whole?
	I think as growing up, my father always tried to instill his culture onto me.
	But because my parents were divorced, I stayed at my mother.
	Wait, sorry, what? Oh, yes, sorry.
	You said that there was an earlier marriage with your dad, right?
	That marriage was very, very, that was before I was born.
	That was, yeah, it was a first marriage.
	Now, sorry, let me just ask a couple of questions if you don't mind.
	How does your tribal values, how do they view something like divorce?
	Very looked down on.
	Not as bad as, say, to the level of Divorce is very taboo.
	Let's say...
	50-60% of that level, divorce is quite taboo.
	But it's pretty bad, right?
	Yeah. Okay, so they already found one tribal value that they didn't really want.
	Your dad, I guess, right? Found one tribal value that he wasn't so keen on, right?
	Yeah. So, he can't claim it as some sort of big absolute, right?
	Like, you have to follow tribal values, because, like, well, he didn't, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, I do agree.
	It's just I struggle so hard with this feeling of guilt that if I don't meet the expectations that I am...
	Very selfish or just ungrateful for the privilege I have.
	They would say privilege.
	They would call it privilege. And who would call it privilege?
	I would say my family from my father's side.
	Because of how much they struggled with poverty and war, they would see me as very privileged.
	Because of growing up in the West.
	And I have it very easy.
	I do see where they're coming from, but...
	I don't know. I just feel that...
	Why is it me that has to solve...
	Save everyone, you know?
	Yeah. That's how I feel like.
	That is...
	The responsibility is put on me to solve...
	To save everyone. Right, right.
	And this is the basic question, which is a very big question, the question of individualism.
	Individualism versus collectivism. And I assume you've listened to the show for a little while, right?
	I've listened to you for years.
	Oh, good. Okay. Right. So I can just be real brief on this because you get it as a whole, right?
	But this is individualism versus collectivism.
	Do you live for yourself or do you live for the tribe?
	These are very, very big questions.
	Yeah, I feel like intellectually, I really, intellectually, I'm 100% for individualism.
	100%. But when it comes to emotionally, it's just so difficult.
	When it comes to emotionally, I feel that I'm still lacking self-knowledge to be able to side with how I feel.
	Rather than what's been forced upon me by my parents, my father, I'd say.
	I would also say that being stuck in depression or addiction or procrastination also just postpones the self-knowledge and makes it so hard to To finally break out of this, it really makes it so much harder.
	What is the addiction that you struggle with?
	I would say just...
	No drugs, but just...
	I would say just internet or video games.
	Yeah, those two.
	I don't have any other addictions.
	Sometimes music. Well, I think we're all addicted to that if we have good taste.
	Now, what's happened with your dating history so far?
	My dating history is pretty much non-existent.
	I had spells of promiscuity and I felt that was a reaction against feeling very restricted.
	I did feel at times that I became promiscuous as sort of a form of Revenge against feeling that daying is very...
	I couldn't be open about daying with my father.
	So I just felt, you know, almost like, screw it.
	I'll just, you know, if you don't want me to be open about daying, then I'll just do stuff on their hand, you know?
	But now I regret it because obviously I have listened to a lot more of your podcasts about marriage and dating.
	I've stopped also for a long time, but in general, I've not really been dating or seriously before.
	Two reasons. The first reason is because deep down I knew I would have to face this issue about my father, what to do if I wanted to have a serious relationship.
	Would he approve or not?
	And then, deep down, I also felt that he wouldn't approve.
	And also, in general, just from the big picture, I felt like I couldn't really date because I've had all these issues and also because of my depression.
	I didn't want to drag other people with me into my problems.
	And that's why I sort of postponed it and just I also didn't have much faith in feeling that someone else would connect with me because I wasn't connected to myself.
	And I felt that no one would relate to me, and I didn't really believe that people would want to like me for my personality, and I became very shallow.
	I would even say I became narcissistic.
	I feel that I was really...
	I find it judgmental, but not really.
	I could explain that a different way, but more just to say I really did become...
	Validation seeking for, say, my outward appearance or how many girls would like me or pursue me or how many girls I was able to pursue.
	So, sorry, Zindra, what would be your ideal woman?
	I'll be very honest with you.
	There's two things.
	My ideal woman would be someone that I could have conversations with and You know, likes me for me and is there for me and is just honest and we share everything together and our life together and we can be free.
	Both of us can be free.
	And I almost felt that I actually met a girl that I would say was my ideal woman because we shared a lot of Values and viewpoints.
	Economically and even philosophically.
	I felt that this issue of marriage just probably ruined it.
	Yeah, I honestly don't know.
	Yeah, I just, because I listen to the show a lot, I really value it when I meet someone that is at least close to...
	Sorry, but what happened with that relationship?
	I wouldn't say we went into a relationship, but we were in a talking stage and we got to know each other, but I feel that the more I told her my issues, the less she seems available.
	And I do understand.
	I can completely understand. Sorry, when you said you told her your issues, what do you mean by that?
	How would you, like, pretend...
	I know, it's a little freaky.
	Pretend that I'm her and just give me the synopsis of the kind of stuff you talked about with her.
	I would say the struggles with depression and And addiction a little, I would say addiction, I told her just my childhood, but not too deep.
	And because I also told her about the marriage situation with my father and the issue about the tribal conflicts, but not into too much detail.
	And what was her background?
	I am a bit worried about...
	No, no, don't say anything.
	You're not comfortable. Listen, you set the boundaries here.
	That's totally fine. We can skip that completely.
	But it's a complicated situation for someone to marry into, right?
	Yeah. Right, right.
	Okay. No, that's fine.
	Yeah, I would just say that she's from a different...
	It's a totally different ethnicity from my tribe, from my ethnicity.
	But I really like it because we share a lot of viewpoints.
	I'm not sure about values because values I still need to figure out about values, but viewpoints definitely.
	Yeah, but then she would run colliding into, you know, because as I've said before on this show, right, I mean, you've probably heard it, but it probably bears repeating, but a woman doesn't look at a man like, it's you and me, babe.
	They look at the man and say, it's you and me, plus your mom and dad, your siblings, your aunts, your cousins, your uncles, your extended family, and she doesn't just think about...
	Getting along with you. For men, it tends to be a little bit more individualistic, but women look at, in general, they look at you as a whole.
	And it's not, I don't think it's an accident for me that I didn't get a great girlfriend, now wife, until I wasn't in touch with my mom anymore, because the previous women were like, yeah, you're great, but that's quite a mother-in-law you got going on there.
	And it was really tough.
	And I'm not saying, I mean, that's actually quite wise in many ways, right?
	Yeah, and that's why I did completely understand.
	I totally understand, but that's why it was quite tough because I would have to keep my distance from my father or I would have to be involved because I would worry about my children as well.
	If I marry a woman from a different culture, I would want to let them know the ethnicity they come from, the culture they come from.
	Have you been back to your parents' home country?
	Not in a very long time.
	I was just wondering about that.
	What was your childhood like as a whole?
	Oh, this is a tough one.
	Oh my god, this is very tough.
	I would say it was nice when my parents were still together, but after the divorce, I had a lot of problems with my mum.
	And then my dad was quite emotionally distant.
	But when I went to visit his relatives, I always felt that I had to just put on a good front, you know?
	And my father was just so concerned with me.
	Obeying him, pretty much.
	It all very instilled in me the sense that if I don't make him happy, then I am guilty for that.
	I am bad for that. And with my mum, it was also a lot of accusations of me not listening to her or Not being a good child.
	Yeah, that's a female thing too.
	For a lot of women, when they say, you're not listening to me, what they're actually meaning is you're not agreeing with me.
	Like, if you really, really just listen to me, you totally agree with me.
	And the idea that you might listen to them and completely understand what they're saying, but not agree with them, is not the easiest thing for some people.
	Not just women, but for some people to compare.
	It's like, well, if you really understood, you'd agree.
	It's like, no, I do understand. I just don't agree.
	Yeah, because there was a lot of just verbal abuse and physical as well, but not that much physical, but it was substantial, I would say.
	But my father never physically He abused me, but just he would manipulate me.
	He didn't even verbally abuse me.
	He would never shout at me or call me names.
	But he would sort of threaten me that if I don't obey him, he would be unhappy.
	And even sometimes to the point where if I was afraid to make him angry because I wouldn't know what he would do.
	It would sort of say that I wouldn't want to make him angry because I wouldn't want to see him angry.
	So I was afraid of how physically abusive he might have been.
	He could have been as a child, so I never risked it.
	But with my mother, it was much more obvious because I knew the extent of the physical abuse and I already knew what to expect.
	But with my mom, it was just more verbal.
	Wait, but what was the physical abuse from your mom?
	We just...
	If you don't want to say, that's totally fine.
	It's helpful for me to know, but it's not essential.
	Yeah, it's more...
	We would get into fights and then I would get frustrated.
	And then she would then eventually either hit me and then I would just defend myself first until I get frustrated.
	Would she sort of hit you open hand or close fist or with implements?
	Open hand and then one time there was a big escalation and a big scenario and that was the worst Physical abuse I've had, but other than that, it kind of just waned away.
	How old were you when that happened?
	I was, I think, 11.
	And what did happen?
	Well, it's very...
	I would say...
	My mother got really upset to the point where she would just tie me down and just repeatedly slap me in the face.
	Do you mean like physically tie you down?
	Yeah. Oh man, I'm sorry to hear about that.
	That's unbelievably harsh.
	Yeah. I do understand why it happened, but it was not really, it was a misunderstanding.
	And she only realizes now, when I spoke to her about it again, that it wasn't my intention for what happened, and it was just a misunderstanding.
	But because it evoked difficult feelings in her, that's why it escalated to that point.
	And I felt that she took our frustration to me.
	But this is why I'm okay with my mother now because she understands how much has affected me.
	And we've spoken about it.
	This is why I... I don't want to say forgive straight away, but she understands how much it's affected me.
	She admits that it was mostly because she had a lot of She struggles with herself, with depression and issues with her divorce and my father.
	And that's why she took out the frustration to me.
	But when I was that age, I always played myself.
	Of course, yeah. I mean, we all do, right?
	It's natural. I mean, it's not accurate, but it's natural, right?
	And so, sorry, your parents got divorced.
	Now, is that the first marriage that your father was involved in, and then he got remarried?
	No, that's the second one.
	Oh, actually, yeah, that's the second one, and he's remarried again.
	So he's on his third marriage.
	Yeah. So, again, he doesn't mind going against the culture when it suits him.
	Yeah. So, I mean, depending on how safe it would be to say that, I mean, it would be you've got to follow the culture.
	It's like, but you didn't.
	You're not supposed to get divorced.
	You made a vow before God to love, honor, and obey, or whatever the equivalent is, till death do you part, and you found that you did not want to follow those rules, and so you didn't.
	And, you know, you could say to your dad, I'm not saying that you're a bad guy because of that, but, you know, please don't put forward this, you have to follow the cultural rules stuff to me, because it just doesn't, it's not believable, right?
	Yeah. Also, I forgot to say, the first marriage was, he told me that there was issues with the government back in his home country.
	There were, there was issues with his wife.
	He's, he's, When he told me, he made it out that it was not really his fault that he split up.
	I'm not really sure, it's quite vague.
	Because my mother says something else as well.
	But I don't think I even really marries that much about it.
	You obviously can judge it much, much better than I can, but I just always find it tough to accept people who say you've got to follow the rules when they themselves don't seem to have any problem breaking the rules when they consider it better for them, right?
	So you could say, well, you consider it better to get divorced and to get remarried, and I consider it better to date by my own choice rather than for what you want culturally, right?
	Yeah, yeah. Because when he's remarried now, he did seem to, well, he did choose, he was not arranged, and he is a woman from his tribe, This is what I feel.
	I feel that he wants me to just come back to his tribe completely, his ethnicity completely.
	Well, it's easier for him, right?
	Yeah. No, I get that.
	And the best way to have people follow your values is to live them yourself, and that way you don't have to bully them into following your values, right?
	Yeah. And so that to me is, you know, kind of the important side of things, right?
	Yeah. Which is...
	I mean, I don't think I'm going to need to bully my daughter into dealing with conflict in a reasonable manner because that's what we've been doing her whole life.
	Any more than I teach her English, I don't need to bully her into speaking English because that's just what we speak.
	And so the level of aggression with regards to values, which it seems that you're facing with your father, the level of aggression is usually completely proportional to hypocrisy.
	In other words, the people who are least likely to follow the values are the ones who most aggressively inflict them upon others.
	And the reason they inflict them is because you can't necessarily follow your father's.
	I mean, I don't think your father would consider you a success if you got divorced twice, right?
	No, no, no.
	So because he's not living the values that he wants you to live, he, And he's not necessarily willing to admit and say, listen, son, here's what I did wrong.
	And I don't know why he would have that kind of accent.
	It makes no sense. But he wouldn't sit and say, listen, son, here's what I did wrong.
	I'm fully aware that...
	Yeah.
	Yeah. Yeah, I just find it very strange because even though now he says,
	yeah, I'm free to live how I want to live and as long as I just involve myself in the community or it's even up to me if I involve myself in the community, He says, now he says I'm a free person, but when I was growing up as a child, he really just wanted to, just really just felt controlling.
	I have to make him happy, and if I don't make him happy, I'm a bad son, you know?
	Well, did he make his father happy by getting married three times?
	No. So, you only exist because he was willing to make his father unhappy.
	So why on earth? Like, you understand?
	Yeah. I just really feel that because of the community he's in, his ethnic community, there's just this big expectation, I feel, that We have to just keep the community alive, not only marry from our community, not marry from the rival community or be disenfranchised and split up.
	Well, yeah, I mean, so, okay, let's do this, right?
	Why don't you be your dad and I'll be you, right?
	Because I just really want to get his logic because I'm not following it myself.
	Okay, so if you could just play your dad, I would say, listen, dad, I know you really, really want me to date someone from our race, our culture, our tribe, but that's not where my heart leads me to.
	I can't just be like this photocopy of history, like a rubber stamp or something from the tribe, from the values, from the history.
	I really want to be my own person, and there's some stuff in the tribe that I really value, and there's some stuff I have questions about, but...
	I want to tell you up front, the continuation of the tribe is not something I'm willing to sacrifice my happiness for, and I think it would sacrifice my happiness.
	So I'm just telling you ahead of time, I'm going to date.
	I'm certainly open to dating someone from the tribe, but if it doesn't work out that way, I'm just telling you ahead of time, that's not a total deal-breaker for me.
	I know it is for you, I get that you want me to do that, and I appreciate that, and I understand that.
	I'm just telling you that we have some different values with regards to this, and I'm sure you want me to think for myself and be my own person and not just be a slave to history or culture or you, for that matter.
	And, you know, you brought me to the West, and the West has this more individualistic thing, and think-for-yourself kind of thing, and that's what rescued us.
	So I'm just kind of telling you up front so it's not too appalling to you that, again, open to dating from the tribe, but it's not a deal-breaker for me if it's not.
	Okay. If I was my father, this is what I think he would say.
	He would say, okay, son, I completely understand.
	It's your life.
	We faced war because of not being free to be who we are in our country of origin.
	But I just fear that as soon as you marry from a different race or ethnicity or even tribe, then we will lose our foothold in the world.
	Wouldn't you want to continue our foothold in the world and make it easier for us to continue to Live on as a tribe.
	Isn't it your obligation if you become financially well-off as well?
	I think that's what he would say.
	Okay. So I would say, as you, I would say, listen, for you, and, you know, you were raised not in the West, right?
	You were raised in a third country of origin here.
	And so for you, the foothold in the world is like a collective thing.
	It's like a group thing. It's a tribal thing.
	But that's not the case for me.
	I mean, again, you brought me to the West.
	You sent me to Western schools.
	I have Western media.
	I have Western books.
	I have Western podcasts.
	God help me. And so...
	I've been raised in a much more individualistic way than you have.
	And my foothold in the world is my own individual thought, my own individual personality.
	And it's not like I'm part of a group.
	I get that. I'm part of the family.
	I'm part of the tribe. I'm part of history.
	It's not like I've just broken away from it completely.
	But even the rocks that fall off the mountain don't go too far from the mountain, right?
	So... It's not that I'm not part of any kind of group, but my primary identification is with my own thoughts and my own reasoning.
	And my foothold in the world is thinking for myself, my job, my family, my values, but it's not a tribal thing for me.
	And really, I mean, again, that's how you were raised, and I appreciate that.
	And there's some good stuff in it. It's not like that's all bad.
	But bringing me to the West and putting me into this very individualistic educational and cultural and political and philosophical environment, I just, you know, we're raised differently.
	And I respect a lot of the values that you have.
	I hope that you will respect the values that you brought me to enjoy here in the West.
	But I think it's unrealistic to say, come to the West, be trained as an individualist, and then Then succumb or give up your individualism for the tribe.
	If that's what you wanted, then we should have gone to a different country where there's more tribal stuff.
	Or we could have gone to a different place in Africa where there's more tribal stuff.
	Or we could have gone maybe to the Middle East where there's more tribal stuff.
	But if you bring me to the West, which wasn't my choice, right?
	I mean, you chose the West because there are certain values in the West that you appreciate and like.
	And that's how I was raised.
	It's different from how you were raised.
	And I think we can inform each other, but you can't expect me to be just like you because we were raised and you chose to have me raised in a very different environment.
	Okay, so I think he would say...
	Well, son, I do understand that your life is yours, your own, but if we wasn't caring about the collective, we wouldn't survive the war, and we wouldn't be taking care of our tribe as a collective.
	But we left...
	No, Dad, you survived the war by running away, by running away from tribalism.
	By running to a country that's individualistic.
	How could you say that tribalism allowed us to survive the war?
	Tribalism was the cause of the war, and running away to an individualistic country was the solution.
	Okay, he would say, okay, I understand, Sonia.
	I think I would almost agree.
	But I would say the very reason the war started was because the rival tribe wages war against us for who we are.
	Right, but that doesn't happen here in the West as much.
	Look, it's not as tribalistic in the West.
	And so you ran to a country where things are not nearly as tribalistic.
	And then you're saying, well, no, but it's tribalism that had to survive.
	It's like, no, we fleed tribalism when we came to individualism because there's no fear that a rival tribe is going to gain control of the government and put us all to death, right?
	So you fled away from tribalism towards individualism, and now you're saying, but son, you've got to be tribalistic.
	I'm like, hmm, I don't quite see it that way.
	Again, I'm not saying tribalism doesn't have any value and, you know, group and value.
	Yes, but... You can't expect me to have the same decision process as you when you brought me to be trained as an individual.
	Yeah, I think what I would say is because the government in our country of origin tried to commit genocide against us, if you marry outside of your tribe now, you just continue the very genocide that the government from our country of origin Try to perpetrate on us.
	And this is why deep down, even though I say, okay, you're free to marry who you want, or as long as they're from as close to our tribe as possible, deep down we want you to marry from our tribe, because otherwise you play into the hands of what the government was trying to do to us.
	So you're saying that I would be the equivalent of like the African Hitler if I marry outside the tribe?
	Yeah. Because the people who were genociding were about the most evil and immoral people that could be imagined, and you would put me into that moral category.
	Does that seem a bit extreme to you?
	It does... Wait, am I still responding as my father?
	Yes. Oh, yeah, okay.
	If I was my father, I would say, yes, it's...
	I do agree, but this is what the so-called enemy wants from us.
	The enemy wants us to just, if they don't wage war against us, get rid of us through war, then they will just get rid of us through war, then they will just get rid of us through intermarriage so that we lose our tribe through the generations.
	And this is why I feel that deep down, despite me saying you're free to marry who you want, deep down this is how I feel that you continue what the enemy wants us to do.
	Well, I don't think that my life choices should be dictated by a civil war on another continent.
	That's just letting history totally dominate everything.
	And I'm sure that you would want me to be as happy as possible, first off.
	Sorry, just to break out of this for a second.
	Does your father have children by the other women?
	No, no.
	Okay, okay. So, and we fled from tribalism more towards individualism.
	And so the question is, what is the tribe?
	Now, if the tribe is just blood, right, if it's just genetics, then we have a problem coming to an individualistic society like the West.
	Because we don't like it We don't like it when people in the West judge us collectively.
	Judge us as a race, as a culture, as a group.
	We don't like it because we call that racism.
	We don't like it when people in the West judge us collectively.
	But that's kind of what you're doing, right?
	Is you're judging everyone else as being unworthy and worse, right?
	Because you want to protect your tribe, your culture, I guess our tribe, our culture, because it's the best.
	In other words, every other tribe, every other ethnicity, every other race, every other culture is not as good as ours, right?
	And so we came to the West to escape that kind of bigotry.
	And I frankly don't like the fact, I mean, if you want to talk about who's manifesting more bigotry, You know, honestly, I don't think it's me.
	And bigotry is what we fled from, so I'm not really sure we want to plant it here too.
	In fact, I'm quite sure we shouldn't and don't.
	Wait, am I still continuing as my power?
	Please. Well, you're very right, because even from the rival tribe, not all people from the rival tribe are bad people.
	It's just the ones in government that are committing the atrocities.
	But deep down, I just feel that I have to meet my community or family expectations of Of marrying you off to someone from our tribe, because that's what I... No, listen, I'm sorry to interrupt, but Dad, I really appreciate the honesty in that, because now what you're talking about is your feelings, and that's what I care about.
	You know, I care about you as a father, I respect you as a father, and I want to listen, and I am listening.
	But to me, this is more like saying, you have to, is different from saying, I feel that you have to.
	Because once you start saying, I feel that you have to, we're actually talking about the real issues.
	Look, with regards to your father, dad, did you do everything that he wanted you to do?
	I wouldn't say so, no.
	That's no, right? I tried to, but no.
	Well, I don't know what tried to means.
	I mean, there were things that he wanted you to do, some of which you did.
	Obviously, he didn't want you to get divorced twice, right?
	No. And if I were divorced twice, you wouldn't consider that a great success.
	And so you went against the values of your tribe to end up with mom, right?
	Which, you know, is a good thing.
	And, you know, you guys are happy, seem happy together and all of that.
	But you did make decisions that went against the values of your father and the value of your tribe, right?
	Yeah. And clearly, I think, and fairly, I should be allowed...
	To do what you did, right?
	Deep down, I do think so.
	Deep down, I do.
	And look, if our values are good, like let's say we have a value called honesty.
	Don't steal. Whatever.
	Don't use violence.
	We have these values.
	So this is the interesting question, right?
	Are the values philosophical?
	In other words, are they good values independent of Tribe, ethnicity, race, history, whatever, right?
	Now, if the values are good values, then the world becomes a better place if we spread those values, right?
	Now, if we just stay within our own tribe, we're not spreading those values, are we?
	We're not showing people how honorable and good and moral and decent we can all be and encouraging people to adopt the good values.
	We're just kind of hoarding them within our own community, right?
	Now, I don't think that's a good thing at all.
	One of the good things about the West is the values are extended to everyone.
	It's not just tribal, like the white people aren't just saying, oh, only for us and don't ever marry and don't ever talk to people outside your own tribe.
	That's kind of what we came here for, right?
	So if the values are good values, then if I live those values and if my wife lives those values because that's who I'll choose, if our children live those values because we instill those values in our children, then The values and the virtues are growing and spreading, which is good.
	But if it's just blood, race, genetics, ethnicity, history, ties to the homeland or whatever, then it's not philosophical.
	The values are just conformity and not just obedience but subjugation.
	It's a subtle form of mental enslavement to say, I have to do these things not because they're good in and of themselves but because history and my father command me to.
	And, you know, if you wanted me to just be an obedient son, you should have taken me to a different country, like a different culture, because that's not how they roll here, right?
	And again, some of the values are great, but the individualism to me is very important.
	Sorry, go ahead, Dave. Yeah, well, there's two reasons.
	The first reason is we came to the West because it's more safe and secure here.
	I would even say also because There's no welfare systems in a lot of countries.
	It's just as safe and secure as possible for us compared to other countries.
	If we moved to more neighboring countries, we would still maybe face corruption.
	Oh, you mean if we moved to countries that were more tribalistic?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	You see the problem? You see the problem, Dad?
	Yeah. And the other reason was...
	Sorry, there were two issues.
	One was the welfare and safety.
	I think those were two one of the same.
	I wasn't sure if there was another one after that.
	Could you repeat your question?
	If the values are the values, if they're good philosophically, then it doesn't matter, the tribe or the culture, as long as you spread those values and raise your children to have those values, then you're spreading goodness.
	You know, like if exercise and eating well are good values, they shouldn't be tribal, they should be communicated sensibly and with reason and evidence and that's the way they'll spread, right?
	Yeah, I just forgot because the first reason was because it's as safe and least corrupt here as possible and also because Well, the welfare state was in there too.
	I'm not sure what that happened.
	Did your family spend time on welfare when they came?
	Is that right? I wouldn't say that much.
	It's more with the children. Well, a lot of my dad's relatives do work, but I would say it's more the child for the children, the welfare for the children probably.
	What do you mean welfare for the children?
	I thought if you work, you don't get a lot of welfare for children, do you?
	I think in the country I live in, if you have children, We do get child tax credits.
	I think the other reason is that there's more opportunities here compared to other countries.
	I still forgot the other reason.
	Well, yeah, so then the issue is that you specifically came to a country that was not tribalistic, and that meant it was safer, and those two are related, right?
	So if you come to a country for its safety, its opportunity, because it's not tribalistic, and then say, well, but what we really need to do is be really tribalistic here, then you have a contradiction, right?
	Yeah. You're bringing something to the table that you came to the table to get away from.
	I do agree. Oh, I remember now.
	Deep down also, I feel that this is our culture.
	In our culture, you should obey your parents and what your family wants from you.
	You shouldn't strike out on your own and live your own independent life because you're abandoning your family and your parents.
	You should, once you grow up, always support your parents and your family.
	Well, but then I would say, Dad, you did things that your parents...
	Like, it can't be completely the same, right?
	You understand? If it was completely the same, we'd still all be in the Stone Age.
	You know, we'd be hunting Zebras with rocks, right?
	Because, well, you don't want to create a spear because your parents didn't do that, right?
	I mean, we can't just completely photocopy our parents.
	There'd be no progress. And certainly, in the West, there's been a lot of overturning of parental values.
	So, for instance, in the West, they consider older people to be more racist, and they dislike that.
	And so that's one of the reasons that the West has opened up its borders, right?
	To people who aren't white and so on, right?
	So we only got into the West because they've gone against their parents' values, right?
	So it's only a sanctuary because...
	And so if we say, well, we only get into the peace and freedom of the West because Westerners have gone against their parents' values to some degree.
	But when we get here, you can't ever go against your parents' values.
	Again, you know, this is...
	It's not reasonable, right?
	And of course, as you said earlier, you did go against some of your father's values.
	So there's got to be room for a little wiggle room at least, right?
	Yeah, I do agree deep down.
	And deep down, I feel that we are afraid of the Western culture because we are afraid that if you become free and independent, Then you'll not be able to have self-restraint.
	You'll either become very promiscuous or you'll get into drugs or you'll get into gangs.
	Oh, so you fear that you've been a bad father who hasn't raised me with the correct values?
	My family would say that I haven't been strict enough.
	I haven't been strict enough.
	I haven't been controlling enough to hold you down so that you don't...
	Oh, you mean so I don't make big mistakes like having three marriages?
	Did that happen because your father wasn't strict enough or was there some other reason?
	Well, my family would say, yeah, I didn't follow the culture as strictly as possible.
	And it is my fault for not following the culture as strictly as possible.
	Wait, so you'd rather I wasn't here?
	Because, you know, the only reason that I'm here is because you didn't, like you're looking at a physical manifestation of you not following your culture's values, and then say, well, son, you've always got to follow your culture's values, in which case I wouldn't exist.
	So again, we've got a paradox going on here, right?
	Right. Yeah, deep down I do feel that you're right, but I feel that I have to correct my mistakes, my failings in not following the culture as strictly as possible by bringing you back to our culture again so that we remain in our culture and tribe for generations to come.
	But Dad, you didn't follow your own culture's values when you were deeply embedded in that culture.
	And now you expect me to follow your culture's values when I've been raised in the Western tradition at school and in culture.
	You're asking the impossible.
	You're asking me to be more strict with the cultural values when I've grown up with far less exposure to them than you ever had.
	I agree.
	I think my biggest fear is just that once you have children, They'll not care about my tribe anymore.
	They'll not care about my ethnicity or country of origin no more.
	And they'll just only become just even more westernized than you.
	In other words, they will grow into the kind of people who gave us sanctuary, not the kind of people we were fleeing from, from genocide.
	You're very right. I agree.
	Sorry to interrupt, Dad, but I get that you have a particular way of looking at the world, and it is racial, and it is tribal, and it means a lot to you.
	I'm not trying to say, oh, it's just superstition.
	I'm not trying to say that at all.
	But I do think that we do need to give respect to the culture that gave us safety and security and opportunity.
	You know, if we'd stayed in the home country, we'd probably be dead, and here I am going to college to get a great career going, right?
	So we can't bring all the old world values to the new world when the only reason we're here is because the new world gave up its old world values.
	We've got to have some respect for the culture that brought us in and gave us this opportunity.
	I think the Probably the one or maybe more few things holding me back is feeling that if you have children that are more ethnically mixed,
	they will not feel that they will fit in with my family.
	My family is so hung up about being very ethnically pure.
	Well, don't I get along with them?
	Well, you do.
	But I'm not ethnically pure.
	I'm mixed. Well...
	Maybe sometimes they do feel that you're different, but they don't really care, I feel.
	So you, again, you stepped outside of ethnic purity to have me.
	And now you're saying, well, you know, lack of ethnic purity is a problem.
	Again, I'm a physical manifestation of you breaking these rules.
	Yeah. And I know that you love me, and I know that you care about me.
	And Dad, I know, I know, I know that you are trying to get me what you think is best for me.
	And I love you for that.
	I respect you for that. I do want to listen.
	But you understand, I can't just be what you want me to be.
	I've got to have self-respect too, right?
	I've got to have a participation in my own life, in my own thoughts, in my own mind, right?
	Wait, is this being sent by your dad?
	You can hear sirens in the background.
	My son's having a conversation about purity!
	Send the paddy wagon.
	No, sorry, just the background is...
	No, it's fine.
	Just kidding.
	Yeah, well, deep down in our culture, our children are almost property of their parents.
	The parents feel like they totally own the children.
	The children should obey the parents and fulfill the wishes and ambitions of children.
	The parents. But should I obey you or should I have my own conscience?
	Because, listen, you're not a morally perfect person.
	I'm not a morally perfect person.
	Mom is not a morally perfect person.
	So there are times where you will tell me to do something that is not morally perfect.
	Of course, right? I mean, if you were morally perfect, you would be married three times.
	And again, I'm not trying to bag on you for any of that.
	It's just, you know, you've made mistakes, right?
	And you will continue to make mistakes just as I will, right?
	Yeah. So this is a big question.
	Do I obey you or do I obey my conscience?
	And my conscience obviously involves you because I respect you and you're my father and I love you.
	So my conscience involves you, but you can't be the final arbiter.
	Otherwise, you haven't raised a child.
	You've raised shadow. You've raised like a hand puppet.
	You've raised a photocopy or a mirror rather than an individual, right?
	Deep down, I agree with you, but I feel that I've become accustomed to seeing you as my pride, almost like my trophy.
	Right, right. And I get that.
	And listen, I'm happy that you're proud of me.
	But part of the reasons why you're proud of me is because I think for myself and I take on my own challenges.
	And I think you want to be proud of me not just as a shadow of you, which would basically be being proud of yourself, being kind of narcissistic.
	Like, you know, like, I'm perfect and my son is exactly like me and that's why I love him.
	That would be kind of a little crazy, right?
	I understand it, right? But it's a little, like, that's not quite right.
	I think you want to say, I instilled good values into my son.
	He thinks for himself. We don't always agree, but we always have good discussions about it.
	And I learn and he learns. Yeah, I do agree.
	I think if I don't control you, my relatives will blame me for not being controlling enough.
	And I sympathize with that, I really do.
	But your relatives also criticized you for two divorces, right?
	Yeah. You're still here?
	We can survive a little criticism, right?
	We can, yeah. And we can have discussions with them, I hope, in the way that you and I have a reasonable discussion about this stuff.
	I just feel that in our culture we don't discuss a lot of stuff.
	Some topics are very taboo, like dating, for example.
	There's always a silence around certain topics.
	We only talk about what's acceptable.
	This is why I feel that maybe it was difficult for you to not strike out on your own.
	Well, no. Here's the thing, too.
	I don't want to abandon everywhere I came from.
	Because that's just running away.
	And there are some things.
	I value the community. I value the family.
	I value the emphasis on tradition.
	These things are all important to me.
	And I don't just... I'm not going to go date some bluehead social justice warrior crazy communist lady, right?
	I mean, you understand that these are values that I have a great deal of respect for.
	I think, like all things that come from a long time ago, they need a little bit of upgrades.
	I mean, you wouldn't buy a rotary dial phone, even though it does the same thing as a cell phone in certain situations.
	In the same way, you know, there's things that I value, but there's things that I also want to think about with myself.
	And I know that that creates a challenge for you, particularly with your relatives.
	And the opportunity then arises for conversation.
	I say, oh, well, they don't want to have that conversation.
	It's like, okay, well, we either keep trying to have it or we give up at some point trying to have it.
	But I don't think that I should not think for myself because other people don't want to think for themselves, right?
	Yeah, yeah. And listen, in a lot of ways, you did a good job as a dad.
	I'm not going to go join a gang.
	I'm not going to go and take drugs.
	I'm not going to do these things.
	This whole process is really tough for me.
	And I know it's tough for you too.
	I get that. But this is some of my anxiety, my procrastination, some of my getting lost in video games and surfing the internet.
	And this is my depression and anxiety.
	A lot of this has to do with, of course I want to please you.
	I would love nothing more than to get up in the morning and be happiest pleasing you.
	That, for better and for worse, is just not how I'm made.
	It's not how I have become.
	And it's really, really tough.
	You know, if I just obey you, I lose myself.
	And then you're happy for a little while, but there's nobody for anyone to date.
	Because in a way, they're just dating you.
	Right? Because I'm just you.
	I'm like, you're a hand puppet, right?
	So it'd be like, hey, I'd have to go up to some woman and say, hey, do you want to go out with my dad?
	And she'd be like, not really.
	I'm like, well, sorry, that's the only one who's in charge in my personality, right?
	And again, you changed from your dad, and that's why you got these women to marry you, and this is why you are who you are.
	So, you know, I have to be able to go out to some woman and say, hey, would you like to go out with me, as opposed to my dad's culture from 30 years ago?
	Yeah. Right?
	And I need her to be here for me.
	And me is a mix.
	Not just, you know, ethnically, but in terms of, like, I have your values, I have Western values, I have my own values, I have philosophy, I have religion, I have tribalism, I have a lot of things.
	Yeah. And I can't just carve bits of them off any more than I can unmix my ethnicity, so to speak.
	I do agree with you.
	But in our culture, the wives and the women shouldn't really be so concerned with conversation or just having a voice or doing their own thing.
	Oh, so it should be her mother dating my dad?
	No, no. It's more like the main concern of women in our culture is being very good stay-at-home mothers, stay-at-home wives.
	No, what I mean by that is that she should just listen to her mother and do what her mother says because that's what her mother did, right?
	Yeah. Right, so in other words, I'm saying, so your mother should date my father because you do what your mother says and I do what my father says.
	You understand? Like, that's not two individuals who can fall in love.
	Yeah. That's just two hand puppets who can hang out together.
	Yeah. Doing what they're told, right?
	Yeah. And I think we just are afraid deep down Of the Western culture, because if we don't control our wives, then no one will get married.
	I will just be promiscuous and go into gangs and drugs.
	Don't make me say it again, Dad.
	Remarriages. Come on.
	Come on. Now, I'm not saying that's the same as being promiscuous.
	You're a serial monogamist.
	I get all of that. Yes.
	But listen, I need to upgrade from your values a little bit, and that's not to say that your values are not all bad.
	There's some stuff in there, a lot of it I really, really respect, but I don't want to get married three times.
	I mean, also, you know, the Western courts, I would be sitting in a jar on your mantelpiece, or at least my balls would be, right?
	Because you try getting divorced three times in the Western family court system, and you're just going to end up as like vampire dust in the upper atmosphere.
	There's nothing left of you. I can't afford to do what you did.
	Like, you can get, I don't know, maybe you chant something three times and you're divorced and can walk out of the house, but that's not how it works here in the West, right?
	Yeah. They take me to the cleaners.
	Yeah, wait, sorry, I just...
	Actually, some minor details...
	Yes, a minor detail, sorry.
	No problem. So, you know, a lot of, you know, I want to learn a lot from you, but there's also things that I need to upgrade from what you did.
	And so I can't just do what you did.
	Because you brought me to an environment where if a woman decides to divorce you, especially if I'm making good money and I'm a professional, which is my goal, a woman divorces you, man.
	Oof. You know, Brad Pitt and Anjanina Jolie, what are they, four years now?
	They're still working on their...
	I mean, they're going to finally finish getting all of their child custody arrangements done by the time the children are 30.
	It's sort of a little too...
	Like, this is how crazy. Ewan McGregor and his wife just finalized their divorce after four years or three years or something like that, right?
	I mean, it's crazy. So I can't afford to get divorced, which means that I have to really make sure I have values that are compatible.
	Right? And because I'm half of the old world and half of the new world and I'm biracial and this and that and the other, It's going to take a while for me to find someone who really matches my values.
	Now, a lot of those values, because I come from you, will overlap with your values and there'll be a lot to respect there, but there will be some differences.
	And I know, deep down, Dad, that you are a strong enough character that you can be around people who have different values and you can be enriched by that diversity, so to speak, right?
	Yeah. Well, Sam, I want you to play it safe.
	Why would you... We risk marrying someone from the Western world where there's too much freedom, where you can get divorced very easily.
	Why not just come back to us and just marry a very obedient stay-at-home wife from our culture.
	Our family knows her. It will be very safe for you.
	You won't get divorced. Just don't worry about happiness.
	Don't worry about love because you can build it after you get married.
	Your happiness can come from other places.
	Not always your wife.
	No, I get that, but I mean, you married those kinds of women, right?
	Yeah. Did you get divorced?
	Yeah, yeah. So, I'm sorry, like, I hate to say it.
	Again, I'm not trying to bag on your divorce habits, but when you say, oh, you won't get divorced if you marry the kind of women like I married and I got divorced twice.
	Yeah. It's the old thing, like, I can't hear what you're saying over what you're doing, right?
	And the other thing, too, like, I mean, if you want me to marry somebody from the old country, I mean, that's a pretty big difference of values, right?
	Again, I grew up in the West.
	And that's, you know, you couldn't keep your marriages together when you'd all grown up in the same ethnicity and culture and country, right?
	And in fact, sorry if I've got this wrong, but in fact, the woman you stayed married to the longest was my mom, who was not ethnically pure relative to you, right?
	So the least compatible has been the most permanent relationship and now you're saying, ah yes, but you have to have someone who's exactly like the first two women I divorced.
	Well son, I think deep down I'm just afraid of disapproval from my ethnic tribe because I feel that if I get excommunicated from them I'll have a very lonely life and I want to belong to them and I feel that if you don't play along then You'll get in the way of me belonging to them.
	Right. And even if you don't get excommunicated, you will lose some status.
	You will be viewed as he didn't keep a firm enough hand and his child is going off the reservation.
	And listen, there's no magic wand I can wave dead to make that go away.
	I can't. But I think that's the core of the issue.
	And now we can sit down and we can come up with some kind of strategy.
	Well, look, maybe I'll meet a woman and fall in love with a woman who's exactly the woman that you want me to marry.
	That could happen. It's not impossible, right?
	So this all might be Theoretical, right?
	We don't know yet. I do want to have the opportunity to look for where my heart goes and where my values go rather than just where my father's bloodline goes.
	It didn't work out so well in the home country and it didn't work out so well for your first two marriages and I'm not sure that it would work out too well for me.
	It might, but...
	So, I'm just saying I'm not wedded to marrying someone you want me to wed.
	On the other hand, I'm not innately opposed to it.
	Let me go and date.
	Now, if it turns out that I get really serious with a woman and there's something about her that is going to be a problem for our tribe, then we sit down and we try and figure out the best way to deal with that situation.
	I promise you, That that will be a problem that we will solve together.
	You, me, mom, my girlfriend, whatever.
	We will sit down and we will try to figure out the best way to deal with this.
	And by having our own freedoms, we also might spread a little bit of freedom to this tribe, which can be a little bit, you know, like...
	A little bit, you know, we are the puppet masters, you are the puppets.
	A little bit claustrophobic, a little bit like, can't breathe, right?
	So we can bring a little bit of air, a little bit of space into this tribal situation, which may not be the end of the world because, listen, we're not the only family that's dealing with this.
	My friends deal with it.
	I mean, obviously, your friends and their kids deal with it.
	And maybe it is time.
	Maybe we can bring this to our tribe and have them start talking about things and have them start looking for better solutions other than do what I say or I'll never talk to you again, which is not really that great.
	And, of course, the other thing, too, is that, you know, if you disassociate, not saying you would, but if parents disassociate from their kids, well, sure as hell all the tribal values are going to go because the kids aren't raised with the grandparents at all.
	So that's not a solution to this.
	We're going to lose everything, right?
	You want to keep the good, maybe discard some of the stuff that's not so good.
	But I promise you, Dad, you know, from the bottom of my heart, from my love for you as a father and my love for our community and our tribe and our history and our country of origin, I promise you that I'm not going to spring anything on you, that I'm not going to parade around in a way that's going to humiliate you.
	you.
	I'm not going to bring some woman in and just cause problems that we are.
	I'm aware of this, and I'm sensitive to your heart as a father, and I really appreciate your honesty and openness in this conversation.
	We're going to sit down together, and we're going to figure out a way that this is going to be beneficial to everyone involved.
	It's not going to be super easy, but you know, it wasn't easy to leave your country and come here, right?
	So it's a good thing that we did, but I promise you that we will find a way to make this a positive for you, for me, for mom, for the girl, for the tribe.
	Thank you.
	I think we're smart enough and willed enough and strong enough to be able to bring this kind of benefit, and we will figure out a way to do it, if it even comes up as an issue.
	Okay. Wilson, my biggest fear is that if you...
	If you marry someone from a different tribe or race, then the biggest fear is that you'll run off and never contact us anymore and never deal with us anymore.
	Your children won't know where they come from or what culture they're part of.
	It might be because for two reasons.
	Maybe my family just disapproves Or because growing up I felt that I alienated you because I was quite emotionally distant and I always just wanted to make you obey me and then maybe now when you've grown up you sometimes feel that you want to keep your distance or if I become maybe just like how I was when you were young then that you'll feel like running away and leaving us for good.
	Because in the West, a lot of children, when they grow up, they then leave their parents and this is what we're afraid of.
	Right. Well, listen, I got to tell you that these kinds of conversations where we're actually having something super reasonable happen, I think this is the best shot we've got, don't you?
	I mean, if you simply try and just make me obey you, then yeah, things are probably not going to go super well.
	But listen, we've been sitting here talking about really core, powerful issues for like 40 minutes.
	We're not yelling. We're not calling names.
	We're not storming out.
	And it's not easy for you, right?
	Because again, I get that you would like me to do what you want to do.
	And if it's any consolation, I would like that too.
	But it's just not where my heart is and I want to be honest about that.
	So these kinds of...
	These kinds of conversations, that's our best shot.
	And I think it's a very good shot.
	And we should be very happy to have these issues rather than being hunted like dogs in the street by ethnic enemies in the old country.
	Wait, I don't know. Yeah.
	Did you get the last bit? Yeah, yeah.
	I do. I think I'm convinced deep down what my My biggest fear is if I stray away from my programming from when I was a child and from my culture and family that if you don't obey your parents,
	your only job is to just obey your parents, then disaster is coming ahead of you.
	This is my biggest fear deep down and this is why I try to Make you obey me as well.
	Right. Because obedience is the biggest value in our culture.
	The more obedient you are, the more respectful you are as a person.
	Right. So I'm just going to break the roleplay here because what's happening is in the roleplay, like I as you am making reasonable arguments, but your father's just repeating himself.
	Yeah, yeah. And so usually when people start to just repeat themselves as if you haven't said anything, it's usually a good time to take a break and let them, give them a chance to absorb.
	Because, you know, we had at least two or three times said, yes, but dad, you didn't do what your culture dictated and you didn't do what your father said.
	So, you know, clearly it's not that big a value because that's, and I'm only here because you disobeyed and went outside of racial purity and blah, blah, blah, right?
	So when somebody just keeps going back to the same talking points, it's usually a good time to take a break.
	Because if you keep going, they'll just keep repeating and then things will get frustrating and they tend to escalate from there.
	But tell me what you thought of the...
	Give me a review of me as you.
	Tell me what you thought of my side of the combo in that roleplay.
	Well, yeah, honestly, what you said to me was really how I felt.
	Yeah. It was deep down how I felt all along.
	It was just very hard for me to admit to myself.
	And I felt that because it's hard for me to admit to myself, that that's what really kept me stuck in heavy depression.
	And yeah, this is why I feel like I get into very heavy depression because these thoughts come up in my mind and I just feel so perplexed I'm having to face this.
	I don't want to feel overwhelmed.
	I'm actually in this situation and I find it hard to believe and I'd rather not face it and push it away.
	When I push it away, that's when the depression comes.
	And then I feel that I'm not living my own life and then my life is not my own.
	So why even bother to take care of myself or just be successful if it's not all for me, if it's just for my dad and my family?
	Right. I mean, I think depression often arises.
	It's like the scar tissue of you can't be honest.
	Yeah. But I will say this, like your dad, as you roleplayed him, pretty reasonable.
	Yeah, he's very reasonable.
	I am grateful for that.
	He does want to reason.
	Yeah. But just, I feel that I have this...
	Oh, sorry. Yeah, go ahead.
	I just feel that I have this...
	I feel that sometimes I just couldn't tell whether he was making me feel guilty, using guilt to make me obey him or if he's being manipulative.
	So I feel that my dad really swings from being manipulative and making me feel guilty to just leaving me alone.
	Sometimes even neglectful, emotionally neglectful.
	It's really a swing between being very far away, distant emotionally and to the point where I felt a little bit neglected.
	Well, no, this is the thing too.
	So if he's very, very keen on you got to transmit values, then one answer is, yeah, but you were very emotionally distant through most of my childhood.
	So how did that transmit values or what values did that transmit to me?
	Yeah, because I even sometimes feel that if my dad didn't divorce my mother, then it would have been much more easier for him to instill cultural values or make me feel more part of his culture as well.
	Yeah, yeah, because when he divorced your mom, he was no longer in the household.
	So he gave up the transmission of values to you.
	Right? And so, again, it's really, really hard for him to say, well, you've got to do what your father does.
	It's like, yeah, but you left and didn't give me a lot of those values because you weren't around much, right?
	Yeah. This is why even because of me being grown up with my mother mostly, I just got used to her culture mostly.
	I wouldn't say her culture that much, but just the daily life I shared with my mother.
	So, like, Food-wise, I was more used to the food my mother makes than, for example, when I visit my father.
	They make more different food, completely different food.
	But then I'm used to my mother's food, and then it would be sort of a little tug-of-war of, come try our food.
	Now listen, sorry to interrupt.
	So yeah, we've been coming up for two hours and I've sort of got across most of what I wanted to get.
	But listen, I know you've got these challenges coming up that we talked about before we got into the call.
	I guess I just wanted to check how do you feel about this conversation?
	How do you feel about the issues that we've talked about?
	I feel that you've helped me tremendously now.
	It's made me able to reflect back to myself just how outrageous really the double standards are when it comes to the relationship.
	I feel much more confident now to tackle the issue as well independently.
	And I felt really grateful that you've taken the time.
	Oh, listen, my pleasure.
	I know that it was a very extreme situation for you, and so I was happy to make the time today out of schedule.
	But will you keep me posted about how it goes with you going forward?
	Yeah, of course. Okay, and listen, very, very best of luck on the stuff that's coming up later this month.
	Again, I don't want to get into any details here, but just know that I'll be thinking of you and giving you my very best wishes for the challenges you have coming up this month.
	Yeah, thank you so much.
	You're welcome. Stay in touch, man. Thank you so much.
	Yeah, thank you. Bye.

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