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Jan. 4, 2022 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:04:04
"I WAS IN A CHILD CULT!" Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
And listen, I'm sorry it took a while to get to this dream, but I'm glad you're persistent because I used to do these a lot and I still do them with myself.
So it's old school and sort of important.
So do you want to start by just reading the email and we'll take it from there?
Okay.
So I had this dream about two and a half years ago.
I was lying in my very messy room on my bed, looking at myself who is hovering horizontally in midair.
I felt such wisdom, integrity, intelligence, creativity, and strength coming off him like an aura almost.
He was very fit.
His hair and beard were perfectly groomed, skin flawless, and he was wearing glasses.
Glasses I have, but I don't wear, because I really don't need them.
I have been recommended them, but I don't need them.
And I noticed he was asleep.
Like in a very, very deep sleep, completely motionless, couldn't hear him breathing, but I could tell that he was alive.
And during the dream, I noticed that he had no legs.
I kind of ignored that fact because I think that's kind of damning.
And during the dream, I'm like, OK, if that's me, who am I?
So I looked back at myself.
And I didn't see me.
I saw a big ball of energy, uh, light and darkness kind of battling each other.
And yeah, that's pretty much it for that dream.
Uh, one thing I forgot to mention was my room was very messy.
It was pretty, uh, common for me back then.
And the other dream I had, uh, very similar was I got home very late, like 3 a.m.
I was very drunk, very stoned and I wanted to sleep so I kind of face planted onto my bed and I closed my eyes as I hit my bed and all I saw was myself made of pure golden light and naturally that scared the hell out of me and so I kind of like started screaming, curled up into a ball and the screaming was so loud that
As I was waking up, I could still hear it.
And it was one of those dreams where I wasn't sure if I was actually screaming in real life too.
And yeah, those are pretty much the two dreams I wanted to talk about.
Yeah.
Some great stuff in that dream.
And of course, I mean, did you write it down?
How did you remember it so well?
Did you like, did you, uh, or is it just so vivid that you can't forget it?
Yeah.
And same with a lot of my other dreams.
I've been thinking of writing a dream journal, and it probably wouldn't be a bad idea, but it seems like most of my dreams, I could remember like it was yesterday.
Do you want to tell me, you mentioned a little bit about what's going on, what was going on in your life, but I assume that there's You know, more that would be worth hearing about what was going on in your life two and a half years ago.
And, of course, that probably is still going on to some degree, otherwise it wouldn't be as memorable.
Yeah, I mean, okay, so, like, I've listened to your show for a long time, right?
Like, I don't know, I was probably one of the first people to start donating and one of your first subs on YouTube.
It's probably been a good, like, ten years or so, right?
And I've kind of had A bit of a battle.
Like, I've wanted to push myself forward, you know, get a good job going, get some friends, you know, read a lot more, all that stuff.
But I also get sucked back in to playing a lot of video games and smoking pot and sometimes drinking.
Back then I used to drink a lot more than I did.
And I also used to... Wait, you used to... Sorry, you used to drink a lot more than you sort of had...
Previously or now?
Sorry, I just lost track of that.
Where was the peak drinking?
I'd say it was around the time of these dreams.
Okay.
What was your consumption before, then and now?
Before then, it was just occasional.
Maybe once every couple months, I might have some whiskey or some beers.
Nowadays, pretty much never.
Maybe on a camping trip or the odd weekend, I might have a beer or two or sometimes with family members, pretty much always with family members.
I'll drink because they usually drink too.
And back two and a half years ago, what was your consumption like?
It was pretty much every day.
And how much?
I would say almost a bottle of whiskey a day.
It was a lot.
Holy crap!
Yeah.
And part of the reason why I drank so much was because I built such an immunity to it that I pretty much took a whole bottle to get drunk.
Wow.
Not cheap, that's for sure.
And were you drinking solo?
I usually prefer that, yes.
But there were times where I had a couple drinking buddies, but usually I'd prefer to drink solo.
Same with smoking pot and having mushrooms.
So your alcohol consumption is pretty low now except sometimes socially you said with family or friends.
What about pot?
What was your sort of bell curve for pot if it's lower now?
Nowadays it's kind of like I might go on like a weekend binge or like a week binge and you know after a couple days of doing it I'm like this really isn't helping me.
Like, as much as I enjoy smoking it, like, it's really not helping me much at all.
So, like, I'll go on, like, a weekend binge, and the next Monday, like, I'll stop, and I'll be like, okay, yeah, I really need to get my shit together and not smoke pot.
I'm sorry, what is a weekend binge?
I don't smoke pot and never have, but what does it mean to be on a weekend binge?
I mean, how much would you take?
Uh, enough to be stoned pretty much the whole weekend.
Like, that could be anywhere from, like, maybe a grand to, like, three grands.
Like, it's a decent amount.
Like, um, like, in short, it's just pretty much just being stoned all day, every day for the whole weekend, or week.
Is that mostly alone as well, or is that more social?
Mostly alone, yes.
And the pleasure that you get from being stoned, if you could describe that for me?
Well, nowadays it's not so much of a pleasure.
Like, it's weird to say, because, like, when I smoke pot, it's changed over the years.
Like, when I first started, it was, like, pure joy and pure ecstasy, right?
But nowadays, it's just... I feel super anxious.
Like, I still enjoy it.
Like, it's nice to, like, zone out.
You're paying extra to be anxious all weekend?
Yeah, pretty much.
Huh.
So it's a negative thing.
Yeah.
It's a negative thing.
I know it's a negative thing.
You're a bad addict, man.
Bad addict.
Yeah.
Addicts are usually to avoid a negative or pursue a positive.
Here you're pursuing a negative?
Yeah.
Well, I think it might be fair to explain how I got into it in the first place.
I think it might make a little more sense.
Yeah.
Back when I was in high school, like I felt kind of purposeless.
I didn't have any sort of major goals in life.
This was before I found your show or pretty much anything that gave me motivation in life.
I didn't do too well in school.
I was super depressed all the time.
Some of the acquaintances I knew, I knew they smoked pot, but I had no interest in it myself.
One day I was following them around.
They're asking me like, Hey, are you smoking pot today?
I'm like, uh, no, I never have.
And I was very confused to why everybody was all, you know, stoned and, you know, going out to smoke pot and asking everybody else.
And I found out that it was 420.
I had no idea what that day meant.
And so it's a time, isn't it?
It's like 20 after four and it's, I assume it's if you're unemployed or in school, it's the perfect time to Smoked pot, I guess, on the 20th of April, too.
But yeah, that's the 420 thing, right?
Yeah, like it was 420.
I had no idea what that day meant.
And so I went with them and started smoking some with them.
And, you know, it didn't really do much for me.
Part of the reason why I went into it was, I remember this quite vividly, is like, you know, my life's at a standstill.
I'm in a bit of a rut.
I was super depressed all the time.
I'm like, How much worse could this be?
Honestly, like everybody around me was smoking pot.
They were having fun.
Some of them were doing well in school and they seemed to have some sort of purpose to their life, right?
Like they would have things they'd want to do.
They do it.
So I'm like, okay, sure.
Why not?
I'll smoke some pot.
And like I said, it didn't really do a whole lot for me, but I was curious about it.
And a couple of days after that, I went to a store with a couple friends and the one guy saw this wristband that he really liked but he didn't have the money for it and it was only like five bucks so I bought it for him and he said he had some weed for me and I'm like no don't worry about it it's only like four bucks right and he gave me that weed anyway and I smoked it and I actually like
And that was your first time alone, is that right?
Yes.
And I also actually felt something from it.
The first time I smoked pot, I didn't really feel anything at all.
But this time, the second time, I actually felt what it was like to be high.
And I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I actually felt happiness for the first time in ten years.
Or at least it seemed.
There would be some Surprising burst of happiness.
I would play a lot of video games before I smoked pot.
I would enjoy that for sure, but I actually felt happiness.
And at the same time, right around when I started smoking pot is around when I found your show.
So the combination of both of them, it really gave me a happiness that I could feel even when I wasn't high.
When I would smoke pot, like, while listening to your show and learning about, you know, ethics, self-knowledge, epistemology and all that other stuff, right?
Like, I kind of smoked pot to kind of learn about that stuff.
Like, it kind of gave me the liquid courage to face myself, if that makes any sense.
Yeah.
And so for a couple of years there, that was why I would drink and get high, was Cause it kind of gave me the liquid courage to figure out all this stuff.
And it got to a point where I didn't really need to smoke pot or get drunk to figure this stuff out, but I still did it anyway.
And I think that's kind of why I've had the switch of getting high used to make me feel great and happy and all that stuff to feeling anxious.
Cause it was like a, It was like a painkiller pretty much, but it got to the point where I didn't need the painkiller anymore, but I was still using it.
Is any of this making sense to you?
Totally.
Yeah.
No, totally.
I mean, it just became a habit, right?
Yeah.
Right.
And I guess you could say an addiction too.
Cause I mean, doing it for that long, like my body almost needed it in a way.
Right.
So kind of like, um, you know, the matrix that was, was helped to serve me, kind of enslaved me in a way.
Yeah, you know, I get that.
So you've listened to the show for a long time, right?
Oh, yeah.
So why are you hiding from me?
You know, that's a very good question.
And I think for the longest time, it's because I didn't want you to shine a light on me.
But I'm at the point now where... Well, it's not.
No, no, hang on.
It's not you.
It's not you who's concerned about having your light shone.
Yeah, you're right about that.
I mean, you're like, Steph, Let me tell you about my life that basically... I'll start at about the age of 15 or 16, talk about 10 years of depression, and just hope you won't try and rewind any further back than that, even though that's exactly what you do every single call and show.
Maybe it won't happen for me.
Yeah, maybe that's it.
So, early childhood.
What was going on?
Alright, so how early do you want me to start?
First memory on.
Alright, so...
Some of my earliest memories have actually been dreams that I thought were actual reality.
I had this one where I was at this nice beach, right?
At night, and I saw the sun setting.
And my parents and my grandparents on my father's side were there behind me and they wanted me to sail the ship out onto the lake, right?
And I didn't want to sail the ship.
I liked the ship.
I knew if I put the ship into the ocean or the lake, that it'd pretty much be gone.
But they pressured me to do it, and I did it anyways.
And for a good 15, 16 years or so, I actually thought that actually happened, even though I still had the ship.
It's on my desk right now.
And it was the same ship I sailed away.
Yeah, that was pretty much my first memory.
Wait, sorry, your first memory is sailing a ship?
Yes.
Oh, you thought that was your first memory?
How old would you be when you're sailing a ship?
Oh, God.
I was probably, I don't know, in between being an infant and a toddler.
But how would you be sailing a ship at that age?
Well, I was, like, I wasn't actually, like, sailing it, like, on it.
Like, I was kind of, like, putting it into the lake.
It was just a little toy ship, right?
Okay, got it, got it.
All right.
Oh, that's the one.
When you said it was still on your desk, I thought it was a picture of the ship.
Okay, got it, got it.
I understand.
I understand.
Now, that was my first memory, but... Okay, so why were you depressed for a long time before you started smoking weed?
What was going on in your childhood that was making you unhappy?
Alright, well, I know exactly where to go from here.
Okay, so... When I was young, Hanging out with some friends.
One of my mom's friend's son.
How old?
4 or 5.
3, 4, 5.
Around that area.
And I had this friend.
I guess I'll call him Mike.
He was a year or two older than me.
And I looked up to him a lot.
You know, he was taller than me.
He was stronger than me.
He was a lot better at playing video games.
You know, all this sorts of stuff, right?
And I enjoyed his company a lot.
You know, he would be very helpful, like, when he saw that I was struggling playing video games, you know, he'd sit me down and be like, hey, you know, here's what I did, you know, all this stuff.
It actually seemed like a very good friendship, right?
And I actually looked forward to hanging out with him more than I did my actual parents, because hanging out with my parents, like, eh, It was fun at times, can't deny that, but it wasn't anything I always looked forward to.
And, you know, there was this one day when I was again, you know, four or five, somewhere around there, when I realized that I didn't really trust my parents, but I definitely trusted this friend, Mike.
And literally the day after that, um, This friend of mine, Mike, he was like, hey, let's play this game, but don't tell your parents.
And he pretty much molested me at that point.
Gosh, and how old was he?
He was probably six.
And I was, you know, four or five.
Yeah, three, four, five or whatever.
And yeah, during that, like I full on blacked out.
So what do you mean by molested?
I mean, that covers a wide spectrum of Appalling behaviors, but where did it land there?
Well, he wanted to rub himself on my butt.
That's pretty much as much as I remember.
After that point, I blacked out.
And from there, like it wasn't just a one off thing.
From there, like it went on until we were probably like 10 or 12.
And it wasn't just him and I. It was, um, he had his brother in on it.
There were some other, uh, Two brothers just down the street.
It was... And were you sort of the victim?
Like you were the plaything, so to speak, of these creeps?
Or were there other kids involved as victims?
Oh, there were others, yes.
There was probably a good six of us.
And sometimes it would be all six of us in a closet or just in the basement or whatever.
And it went on for a long time and there was also a I wasn't there for this, but they also got a woman involved.
And by woman, I pretty much mean child.
Because, I mean, we were still very young at the time.
They wanted me to get my sister in on it, too.
And as disturbing as this sounds, like, as a kid, not really knowing much better, like, I kind of enjoyed it.
Like, I don't know if it's like Stockholm Syndrome.
I mean, I guess that's what it would be, but I definitely enjoyed it.
But I also knew it was not a good thing, so I didn't get my sister involved in it, which I guess, thank God for that.
But yeah, there was like, I don't know, maybe eight or so of us total.
And what sort of activities would you get engaged in in this group?
Well, it'd be mostly like kissing and touching and feeling and kind of like foreplay.
There wasn't actually full-blown sex, but that's pretty much as far as that went.
And how often would this occur?
Maybe every two to three weeks.
Sometimes there'd be a couple month long gaps.
But with the one friend, not the Mike, let's go with Drew, him and I, that's why we would hang out as kids, was to do that.
And then it tailed off around puberty?
Yes.
And there's also something else I should mention, kind of what led to my depression more so than actually facing that.
You know how I said the first time like I blacked out?
Well, I guess I was like a self-defense mechanism.
I would poop my pants and it did help.
No, I would poop my pants.
Oh, poop your pants.
Sorry, Ken.
Yeah.
And it would work, because they would want to do this disturbing childhood pedophilia shit, and they would notice I have shit all over my pants, and they wouldn't want to.
So it definitely worked, but at the same time, it led to some severe bullying in school, as you could probably well imagine.
I mean, if you crap your pants in order to avoid being molested, it's not like you can say, oh no, I don't have to crap my pants, I just don't want to get molested, because it's not like that's going to solve the problem, right?
Yeah, and of course, being a kid, it's not like I understood any of this.
Well, you know, you understood it to some degree, right?
Which is why you didn't get your sister involved.
Yeah, true, true.
Were there kids younger than you in the group?
Yes, a guy, Mike's brother.
He was about a year younger than me.
And he was recruited by Mike, is that right?
Yes.
And you would perform the sex acts on the other boys?
I think there was a girl involved too, is that right?
Yes, but I wasn't there for that.
Okay.
And it wasn't just a one-way thing, it would go both ways.
Like, it's not just me performing it on them, they do it to me too.
No, no, no, I get that.
I mean, it started off being inflicted upon you and then it became somewhat mutual, I suppose, as you got more used to it and began to take some, I guess, pleasure in the process, right?
Yeah.
And you have a sister.
Any other siblings?
Oh, no.
Just a sister.
Younger sister.
Younger, okay.
So you had up to eight boys, and then later there was a girl, but you weren't involved at that point, is that right?
Yes.
Okay.
And for all I know, this continued to spread, like a disease or a virus.
It wouldn't surprise me if they were more involved after that.
And of course, you know, the guy only... Sorry, it kept going, but the group kept going, but you dropped out, is that right?
Yes.
And how did that come about, the dropping out?
What was the process?
You know, that's a good question, because honestly, it just kind of stopped.
Well, no, you stopped, right?
It may have kept going.
Yeah, yeah.
For them, yeah.
But for me, it just... Like they'd say, come on, we want to come over and you'd be like, no, or they'd say, come over and you'd say no.
Like, was it like that?
Well, I guess, you know, My self-defense mechanism kind of deterred them a lot.
Like, they'd invite me over and, you know, they'd want to.
They'd see that I had Fiji's all over myself and... Sorry, was this going up until the age of 10 or 12, you would still crap your pants to avoid this?
Oh, it went on until I was like 15 when I first started smoking pot.
Like, the moment I started smoking pot, the self-defense mechanism stopped.
Okay, so let me so I understand.
So you stopped with the molestation stuff at 10 to 12, but you until 15, you would still poop your pants, even though you weren't involved in the molestation stuff?
Yes.
Okay, got it.
Now.
Sorry, if this is more I interrupted you if there's more that you wanted to add.
Ah, no, I think that's just about it.
Like, you know, in between All that shit going on in my childhood.
Literally all that shit going on in your childhood.
Yeah.
And the bullying I received because of that, not only from my fellow peers, but teachers as well, you know, I was literally the lowest person on the totem pole, like throughout most of my childhood and I guess pre-teens too.
So when you would, sorry, when you would defecate on yourself from the ages of 10 to 12 to 15, Would it be under periods of stress, or like, because before it was periods of stress, right?
Oh, it'd be all the time.
Oh, all the time, like every day?
Oh yeah.
And you would have, you would feel the need to go to the bathroom, but you wouldn't want to, because I guess at this point you didn't know if you might continue to be preyed upon, like the guys could corner you or something like that, right?
Yes, but it was never a cornering.
I would always sign up for it.
Well, not at the beginning.
Yeah, not at the beginning.
I mean, I guess I did go along with it, because I trusted that guy, but, like, you know, like I was saying, like, I looked up to him more than my parents, so when he said, hey, let's play a game, but don't tell your parents, I'm like, okay.
I mean, I knew it wasn't right at the time.
Even at the time, I knew it wasn't right, but I trusted him.
Right.
Well, more than your parents, right?
Mm-hmm.
So, what did your parents do when you had this defecation problem?
Uh, they would yell at me, mock me, say, you know, I kind of enjoyed having shit in my pants.
And, you know, they were just as much of a bullies as my, uh, parent or as my, uh, teachers and, um, sibling and, uh, peers in school.
I mean, did they take you to the doctor to get you checked out for physical issues?
Did the doctor ask?
No, never.
Why this was occurring?
Never.
You must've gone, you must've had some healthcare as a child, right?
Yeah, but that was never mentioned by myself or my parents.
So the doctor, what, the doctor had no idea that you crapped yourself?
Yeah, he had no idea.
He could probably smell it, but that's just about it.
So what the hell was going on with your parents?
Like, to be this unprotective, detached, dissociated, whatever you'd want to call it.
Like, what the hell was going on in their lives?
Ah, they were usually too busy fighting each other.
Like, my parents have had an on-and-on-and-off relationship pretty much since before my sister and I were around.
And what would they fight about?
Ah, just about anything.
Could be financial stuff, could be, you know, one accusing the other of cheating or lying or... And was there substance abuse involved as well?
Ah, my dad did a...
Did drink a lot.
Did a lot of drugs, too.
Yeah, like harder stuff than marijuana?
Yeah.
Mushrooms.
I think he did cocaine a few times.
And what did he do for a living?
He's a waterfitter.
And did your mom work?
Same career I've gotten into, actually.
Right.
And did your mom work?
Yes, she worked in a deli.
Has her whole life.
Okay, and you say on again, off again, they would break up?
Did they divorce?
Are they still together?
I guess they're technically still together, but going through a divorce, I mean, I don't know, every other year it seems they go through a divorce, but then it doesn't happen, and then it does happen, and then it doesn't happen.
Now, even now, at my age of 26, like, They might be going through a divorce?
Maybe?
I don't know.
My mother doesn't live with us anymore.
So... Sorry, you're still living at home?
Yes.
Why the fuck?
You know, that's a very good question.
I should have moved out a long time ago.
I guess it's because... I don't know, maybe I'm not strong enough?
Which doesn't really... No, no, maybe it's useless.
Maybe it's a useless thing, right?
Because... Maybe it's when you give yourself an out.
You know, is it this?
Maybe.
It's like, okay, that's soft resistance.
So why have you not moved out?
I mean, you have a job, right?
You have a career.
You're well the fitter of it, right?
So why have you not moved out?
And listen, I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world that you haven't moved out.
I'm just, you know, kind of curious at 26, right?
Because you're limiting the shit out if you're a romantic.
Oh, that's probably it, right?
That you don't have to worry about dating too much or settling down as long as you're still living at home, right?
Yeah, I guess that would be part of it.
I mean, I definitely want a girlfriend.
I definitely want a wife and kids, but, you know, it's quite the responsibility.
I mean, the reason why I keep, the reason I say to myself why I still live at home is because I save a lot of money.
Yeah, well, for what?
Weed and video games?
I mean, what are you doing with all the money?
I mostly just save it.
I have a hell of a lot of savings.
Okay, but what are the savings for?
What are you going to do with it?
Are you going to buy a house?
What's the plan?
The plan I've had was to buy an apartment complex, live in the one and rent out the others.
Okay, so let's say you do that.
How far away are you from that goal?
Oh, maybe a year or two.
That's not bad.
Yeah.
But you know, recently I've been thinking, as I'm pretty much at a standstill in my life, I guess.
I work.
I save money.
Sometimes I'll read some books.
Most of the times I'm smoking pot and playing video games.
It's almost like I need to kick myself out of the house because I'm kind of at a standstill.
Does that make any sense to you?
I'm too comfortable.
I'm too comfortable and it's not really helping me.
People don't get comfortable.
Basically what happens is they're waiting for something.
You're waiting for something.
You're waiting for something to happen.
You're waiting for probably some awareness on the part of your parents.
You're waiting for some completion of childhood, right?
Because you're in a situation where your childhood is not complete.
You haven't finished it and moved on.
There's no closure to your childhood because your childhood is like an open fucking wound, right?
So because there's no closure, you're waiting for something or hovering around for something.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense actually.
I mean, I don't too often get reoccurring dreams, but one reoccurring dream I've had for a while now is pretty much living as a child.
Yeah, I mean, you're living at home at 26 in the same way that you were crapping your pants at 15, right?
It's an extension of an earlier phase of childhood, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, even what I do with most of my day, it's not much different from when I was younger.
Like, I often joke with myself that even though I'm 26, I'm still practically 17.
No, I get that.
I get that.
And... So... What are you waiting for?
Why are you still around the home of your parents?
In other words, What could they do that would make you the happiest?
That would give you the most pleasure?
What could they suddenly wake up tomorrow with some revelation or some understanding or some communication or some conversation that you'd be like, oh, I've been waiting for that.
Well, do you have any idea what that might be?
Well, I haven't thought about it, but when you were asking me that, I guess the best thing would be like, you know, what are you doing here?
Don't you want something better than this?
Like, don't you want to go out and pursue the ambitions you've had of, you know, getting an apartment or starting a business, getting some friends, playing the guitar or whatever it be.
Okay, so let's say that they noticed that your life was kind of tick-tock ticking away.
And let's say that they noticed that and sort of sat you down and said, son, you know, I got to poke you with a stick here because you just kind of Sitting around, right?
I guess you're accumulating stuff, but it's not much of a life.
And so they would need to notice that you were stuck, that you were listless, kind of bored, kind of boring, and just kind of circling the drain as far as, you know, the life of the energy that you're supposed to have in your twenties, right?
So they would have to notice that, right?
Yeah.
You know they're never going to notice that, right?
Yeah.
If they haven't by now, they never will.
Well, no, it's not just because of the by now.
No, it's not.
Even if you were 17, I would tell you they're never going to notice that.
Yeah, true.
Why?
How would I know that?
Well, because they never have.
Even when I was younger.
What did they not notice when you were a child?
That I was being molested.
That you were involved in some tween sex cult.
Yeah.
Right, so if they don't notice that you're involved in a mutual molestation, child orgy sex cult, how the fuck are they going to notice anything else?
Yeah.
And all the signs when I was younger, they were blindingly obvious.
Go on.
Well, for one, they'd see us, you know, hanging out in a closet, And every time they'd come downstairs, we'd kind of rustle to put all their clothes back on or whatever.
And, you know, there'd be some times I'd come up from the basement and my pants would be half on and, like, how the fuck they didn't notice that's beyond me.
And on top of that, like, shortly after a lot of this stuff, a lot of that molestation happened, like, I actually wrote a little bit of a book and showed it to my mother.
And she read like the first sentence.
I was like, oh, haha, that's cute.
And then, you know, went on to like, I don't know, go to bingo or whatever.
What was the first sentence?
Uh, the first sentence of the book was like, uh, there was a young lad, uh, named something.
And you know, that whole book, I mean, it's just a little coloring book I read as a kid.
And it was pretty much exactly what I was going through.
Like, I would talk about how he was being abused and bullied, and she looked at the first sentence like, oh, haha, that's cute.
And I'm like, well, hey, there's more to this book.
And it was met with complete indifference.
So you drew out the bullying, the defecation, the molestation.
You drew out everything and wrote that, and you showed it to your mother.
Yeah.
I, you know, I got a whole bunch of papers, you know, I got a whole bunch of crayons, and... How old were you at this point?
Oh, six or seven.
So, she entirely owns the next five years of Molestation.
Like, it's 100% her.
Because you tried to get rescue, you tried to get salvation, you tried to get help.
You confessed, in a sense, or you reported what was going on.
Yeah.
And not only that, I did a very thorough job of it, too.
I made a nice little book.
I even put some binders into it.
I made a nice cover, like a book cover.
Do you still have that?
No.
No, it's long gone.
So you showed this to your mother.
She didn't care.
Yeah.
You never showed it to your dad, right?
No.
And this is the woman.
Who gives you shelter right now, right?
Well, technically right now it's my father because my mother moved out.
Right.
But for the last 10 years, often it's been her too, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
The fuck are you doing with these people, man?
What are you doing?
Your parents ignored way north of half a decade of molestation.
And you drew it out and showed it to your mom.
They never investigated why you were defecating in your own trousers, pants?
No, it's more than that.
They ruthlessly mocked me, spanked me.
They mocked and abused you, yeah.
Yeah.
The fuck are you doing with these people, man?
What am I missing here?
I'm trying to figure out why you're not on the opposite end of the planet, so to speak.
You know, I probably know the answer somewhere, but I don't know.
No, you absolutely know.
Yeah, you do know.
I mean, I'm not, you know, especially if you've been listening to the show for 10 years, you know, I'm not going to accept I don't know.
That's too easy a defense.
And you do know.
Yeah, you absolutely know.
What the fuck are you doing?
This is hell itself, you understand?
This is fucking hell itself.
Your parents are child abusers and molester enablers, who failed at the most basic duty of parenthood, and have absolutely zero excuse because you confessed, you told, you revealed.
And they fail to protect you, even though, as you say, you stagger up from the fucking basement with your pants down around your knees.
The kids are always hiding out in the closet.
That's not what boys do!
I grew up with boys!
I was a boy!
We don't hide in the closet, you know, to use the gay analogy, obviously in a fairly upfront manner.
Yeah.
But boys don't play in the closet.
We run around outside, we run through the hose, we get the hose out, we water balloon fights, we roam in the woods, you know.
You climb stuff, you swing on ropes, you bike around, you play baseball, you don't, you know, let's go to the closet!
You know, maybe I'm falling victim to just about everybody who calls into you, but I have a complete blind spot here.
What blind spot?
Like, I know I can do better, but I just... No, no, no, no, no, hang on.
Focusing on you, I need you to focus on your parents, okay?
Because you're going to try and self-criticise yourself.
You're going to criticise yourself about all of this, right?
That's not where the issue is.
Right, the issue is... What are you doing under the roof of these monsters?
Literal monsters.
Okay, if you can't get it, it's in the dream.
Alright?
Should we go to the dream?
Yeah.
Okay.
Lying in my very messy room.
Is your room messy at home?
I assume so, right?
It can be.
It's not as bad as it used to be.
Very messy about two and a half years ago, I guess it was, lying in my very messy room on my bed, looking at myself, who was hovering horizontally in midair.
I felt such wisdom, integrity, intelligence, creativity and strength coming from him.
He was very fit, hair and beard perfectly groomed, skin flawless, and he was wearing glasses, which I rarely ever wear.
I noticed he was asleep, like a dead sleep, motionless.
I couldn't hear him breathing.
I noticed, but tried to ignore the fact that he had no legs.
Knowing that he was me, and I was looking at myself, I had to know who I am, and what I look like.
So I went to go and look down at my actual self, lying in the bed, and my vision instantly pivoted to a third-person view, like a person standing at the foot of my bed, and all I saw, there was a ball of light and dark fighting each other.
Okay, so let me make sure I understand this.
You're lying on your bed looking at myself who was hovering horizontally in midair.
Were you over the bed?
Were you looking up?
No, you weren't, because you could see your face, right?
So where was the body hovering?
Pretty much in the middle of the room.
OK, middle of the room.
And this is an idealized version of yourself, is that right?
Yeah, I'd say so.
OK, so this is like a perfect avatar of yourself, right?
And he was very fit.
What's your level of fitness?
It's all right.
I mean, I work in a welding shop.
I mean, I'm not overweight, but I'm not super buff.
Like, average, I guess.
And your personal grooming?
Like hair, beard, teeth, skin?
It's not bad.
I mean, I've neglected my hair for a while.
Like, I have pretty long hair and I had quite the knot going.
And I tried combing it out, and I just gave up and cut it out, so there's a bit of a empty spot.
But when I have a ponytail in, it's hardly noticeable.
Okay.
And when it comes to my teeth, like, I always drink my coffee black, and that stains the fuck out of them.
But aside from that, they're alright.
Okay.
Alright, so, your idealized self is impossible.
That's what the dream is telling you.
Right?
And I'll tell you why.
Because you look up to this, but when dreams have things that defy the laws of physics, they're telling you that they're impossible in your environment.
Because he's floating in midair, right?
You weren't, right?
It wasn't like you were in a spaceship where you, like, you were pressed onto the bed with gravity.
He's floating in midair, right?
Yeah.
So, he is not possible.
In your environment, right?
In your room, is this the room you grew up in?
Did your parents move?
Yes.
Yes, that's the room I grew up in.
Okay, so in your childhood room, in the room, are you actually sleeping near the closet where the molestation would sometimes occur?
No.
Did it never?
It was usually over, no, it was once or twice, but it was usually always at their house.
But you're in the house, so, but it would sometimes happen in your house, in your basement, Yeah.
Okay, and occasionally in your room you sit once or twice?
Yes.
Okay.
So he's asleep, like a dead sleep motionless, I couldn't hear him breathing, right?
So he could actually be dead, right?
Yeah.
So he's like a ghost?
Could be, but I kind of felt life coming from him, if that makes sense.
Okay.
He has no legs.
Now how, I mean, Did he have pants tied off?
Did you see the stumps?
How did you know he had no legs?
What was the evidence there?
No, there was nothing there at all.
It was kind of the start of the legs, and that was it.
But could you see the stumps?
No, it was kind of like a ghostly fading away.
Okay, so we're back to the ghost thing, right?
Yeah.
Okay, and he has glasses on, which you say that you didn't You're needed, or you've been told that they're needed, but you don't wear them because you don't need them, right?
Yeah.
Like, it was one of those things where they're like, you know, having this will help your eyes adjust a bit, but your vision's not that bad.
Yeah, yeah.
Because I have no problem seeing.
But when I put them on, like, everything does look super clear.
Right.
But if I don't wear them, like, I wouldn't know.
Right.
Which, you know, obviously it's a big analogy that you don't want things to be super clear in your life.
Yeah, I guess so.
And you're calling me to put the glasses on, I guess, right?
And the body that was floating there, the half body that was floating there, was it you in the age that you were two and a half years ago, or was there an age difference?
Older or younger?
I'd say it was my age.
Okay.
Maybe a little bit older, but I'd say he was my age.
Okay, so Looking at myself, you had to know who I am and what I look like.
So I went to go look down.
So you stood up from the bed, right?
Well, I kind of looked down at myself and immediately I was kind of viewing myself in third person.
Because it's not like I stood up to look at myself.
So you basically, sorry, you kind of ghosted out of your body to look at two of you.
One, the half of you floating In the air, and the other was the body lying on the bed?
Yes, but the body lying on a bed wasn't an actual body.
It was just a ball of light and darkness.
Like there was no human there.
So, you kind of ghost out of your body, you look back at your body, but it's been replaced by this ball of light and dark fighting each other?
Yes.
And what did that look like, in particular?
Is it like a yin-yang thing, or what does it look like?
Yeah, it kinda looked like a yin-yang.
Uh... I mean, the light wasn't as strong as the dark, but... Yeah, it definitely looked a lot like a yin-yang.
Okay.
Although, definitely more chaotic.
Okay.
Where did the body begin to taper off?
If you could remember that.
Like, did it taper off around the waist?
Or above the knee?
Or the hip?
Or where?
Uh, just below the waist.
Like there was still some leg there.
Almost like if I had like a, I don't know, like a mini skirt on.
Okay.
Okay.
So you're the only, like when you, when you, we'll call, I don't know how to put it exactly.
We'll call you the, the astral you, right?
Where you kind of warp out of your body.
Look at yourself, that's the ball of light.
That's the only legs that are in there, right?
Like your, the body on the bed doesn't have legs because it's the light and dark fighting.
The body in the air doesn't have legs.
Only you have legs.
Except they're not real legs because you're kind of out of your body, right?
Yeah.
So there's no legs.
Correct.
Now, what are legs used for?
Uh, standing on your own two feet.
And?
Walking around, doing stuff.
Going places.
Yeah.
And you're not going anywhere, right?
Nope.
So you've got no legs.
There are no legs in the dream.
Anywhere.
You've got three people, in a sense, no legs.
That's really damning.
Well, see, I mean, it's going to be kind of annoying if you keep jumping to sort of, in a sense, moral or self-critical conclusions while we're exploring this stuff.
It's a fact.
The dream is giving you information, right?
Yeah.
What is your... because here you've got an ideal self that's got indications of death and unreality, right?
So my best self is dead and unreal.
Yeah.
So what is your ideal self?
Right?
You've been listening to this show for 10 years, right?
So what is your ideal self?
What is it that you would wake up tomorrow having achieved and say, well, that's about as great as it can be?
Well, I guess that goes back to around when I first started listening to your show.
Like one of the biggest things where I'm like, yes, I definitely want to do that.
is to have a philosophy show like yours or maybe even join you.
I mean that dream almost kinda faded away but like that was kinda like the first real ambition.
Well dreams don't fade away.
It's not like an after image after you look at a bright light and close your eyes.
They don't just fade away.
You abandon them, right?
Yeah.
Let me ask you this.
So you started listening when you were like 16, right?
Uh-huh.
Okay.
Okay.
At 16, if you could look down through the tunnel of time, 10 years down, and see yourself right now, what would you think?
Good job?
No, not at all.
I expected to be so much further at the age of 16.
Okay, so you look forward.
And so, how would you... Let me play your 16-year-old self, okay?
And you play you right now, okay?
Alright.
Alright, so we're Bouncing 10 years back and forth, right?
And say, oh, wow, cool.
Okay, 10 years.
It's 2021.
That feels so science fiction.
All right.
So, we're just starting to listen to this philosophy show that's really inspiring and exciting and motivational and facts and reason and evidence.
You're 10 years down the road.
What have we got?
Nothing.
What?
It's like I haven't changed at all.
What are you talking about?
You're grabbing on to this philosophy show, man.
And other things, not just that.
But, like, you got... You got ten years?
We got ten years?
Where do we... Okay, just describe... Describe your life to me.
What have I got to look forward to?
What are we doing?
What's going on?
A lot of dreaming.
Fantasizing.
No, no, just give me the facts!
What are we doing?
What's our life like?
What's our day like?
Where are we?
What's going on?
Well, we're going to work.
Making a good bit of money there.
Not a job I liked all that much.
I mean, reading some books.
Having a lot of fun reading those books.
Pretty damn good books.
And...
Well, that's pretty much it.
Come on, man.
10 years?
You're 26, right?
Yeah.
10 years down the road.
I'm 16.
You're 26.
We go to a job we don't like.
We read some books.
What are you talking about?
What are we...
Where are we living?
Still living in the same house I grew up in.
Wait, it's ten years down the road?
And you're in the same room I'm in right now?
Yep.
We got a girlfriend?
No.
We did- No girlfriend, no friends.
Did we have a girlfriend?
Uh, they've lasted for a couple days.
Wait, ten years down the line, we had one girlfriend for a couple of days?
Well, a couple that only lasted for a couple days.
That's not really a girlfriend, right?
No.
Could have been the start of one.
What happened?
Well, every one of them had a million and one red flags.
Be it drug addiction or You know, they weren't very good at conversation.
Very boring and basic.
But why?
Why are we meeting drug addicts?
I mean, lots of women out there aren't addicted to drugs.
Why?
Why are we meeting?
Why are we meeting drug addicts?
Oh, maybe I can't do much better than that.
I mean, I'm certain I can.
No, but where are we going to meet these drug addicts?
I mean, do we go to museums and, I don't know, like the symphony and, and, like, where are we meeting, where did you, where are we meeting the drug addicts?
Uh, usually on Facebook or at some trashy apartment.
Uh.
Okay.
So no wife, no girlfriend, job we don't really like.
Not a whole lot to look forward to.
What do we do with our free time?
Ah, smoke some pot.
Play some video games.
Listen to some philosophy shows.
Check out the news.
Maybe start a book.
Not always finish it.
Well, most of the time I do.
Uh-huh.
You're depressing the shit out of me, man.
Yeah.
Like, what the fuck?
It's not what I'm thinking.
Like, at 16, it's not what I'm thinking we're gonna do.
Yeah, it's not what I thought at 16 either.
So what happened?
Can't say you didn't know stuff, right?
Yeah.
You read books and philosophy show and all of that.
Like, what's happening?
What happened?
I guess I just never actually did what I needed to do to achieve a lot of the dreams.
Oh, no, I get that.
You told me that.
We're still in the same fucking room doing nothing.
So it's like a 10 year prison sentence, right?
So, but why?
Why didn't we move or act or change or upgrade or like, why?
I didn't think I was good enough.
No, no, but I think we're good enough.
I'm 16.
I think we're good enough.
That's why we're getting into this philosophy stuff.
So we can, right?
Yeah.
And you're definitely right about that.
So why, why, why, why did you betray me, man?
Oh boy.
Mostly to approve people I had in my life.
Get the approval.
Not that I actually cared about their approval, but Don't you care about my approval?
Oh, most definitely.
Not too much apparently, right?
Yeah, not enough to actually do something about it.
Well, you have done, right?
You have done everything, right?
I mean, you've guaranteed that we can't get anywhere.
Can't approve, can't find love.
And now, like, Before I had shit smeared all over me, now I've got dead history smeared all over me at 26, right?
Yeah.
Like, I got no... I mean, I got no... So, 10 years from now, I'm 16, 10 years from now, I got no experience in relationships, right?
How am I supposed to find a wife?
How am I... I mean, you're supposed to give me some experience in relationships, so that I know how to talk to women, how to interact with women, how to... right?
What are you... What are you doing?
Like, what are you running from?
I don't... I don't understand.
You're supposed to take care of me, man.
I mean, I get that mom and dad didn't take care of either of us, but you're not supposed to do what they did, man.
You're supposed to take care of me.
Yeah.
I mean, they betrayed you, but you know how much that hurts, right?
That is correct.
So why did you betray me?
I mean, why the fuck should I even get out of bed tomorrow, if this is what you're leading me to?
Well, I always know I can do better.
That's... that's like a fortune cookie.
I don't know what that means.
What does that mean?
Well, it's never too late.
I can still, you know, find my own place.
I can still read a lot more.
Well, we've read, we've listened to shows.
What has that done?
I...
Not a whole lot at the moment. - Thank you.
I mean, I'm sitting here at 16, dreaming of like a good woman, good mom for kids, good companion, good partner, good friend.
And 10 years later, you're living in the same room we spent 10 years shitting ourselves in.
And, and, you're supposed to like, what, find some woman, bring her home to this place?
No, definitely not.
What's a good woman gonna think?
Oh, she'll run away screaming.
Or maybe not screaming, but she'll definitely run away.
Mom and Dad took the easy route, right?
Is that fair to say?
Yep.
Mom and Dad didn't want to find out what was happening to us, didn't want to find out this horrible group of boys.
Mom and Dad, you know, Mom, you know, we showed her the whole cartoon, the comic book, the kids book about everything that was happening to us.
And she's like, Oh, that's sweet.
I'm going to bingo!
Right?
So it took the easy route, right?
Yeah.
They wasted their lives.
They did nothing.
They yelled at each other.
They fought, they broke up, they got back together.
They just waste, waste, right?
Mom in a fucking deli her whole life and, you know, Dad, I guess, doing what you're doing.
And, I mean, we know exactly how terrible it is when people just take the easy route, right?
When they're lazy, when they distract themselves, when they don't care.
We know exactly what that looks like, right?
So why are you doing it?
Why are you doing this?
Why are you doing the video games?
Drugs?
Drinking?
Why?
Why are you taking the easy road?
We know exactly where that leads, right?
In fact, it's going to lead to even less!
At least, mom and dad have you and sis, right?
Yep.
So, you're doing even worse than they are!
But with much more and better information!
So help me understand.
I don't understand.
From where I sit at 16, man, it looks like we got escape route, we got philosophy, we got self-knowledge, we got reason and virtue and it seems to me we got everything we need to get out of this prison.
Door ain't even open.
It's not even locked.
Just push it.
Out we go, right?
Ten years later, we're still here.
Why?
And give me a real answer, not this, I don't feel like I deserve better.
That's a platitude that's just like, why?
Why are we still here?
Don't tell me they won, man.
Don't. .
No, I cannot accept that.
But you're kind of living it, aren't you?
I mean, I guess Biggest thing that went wrong is I never had a concrete plan.
Never had, like, okay, you know, I'm gonna go, I don't know, find myself an apartment and then... I mean, I guess that's not true.
I mean, I guess I have had some plans, I've just never followed through with them.
And I don't even know why.
Why not?
Why not?
Maybe I didn't think it was worth it.
Thank you.
Which I know isn't true.
Okay, so how about you stop bullshitting me and tell me the real answer?
You know, break the roleplay for a second.
Amen.
Amen.
Thank you.
Like, honest to God, man, like, this is hitting me so hard.
Like, when you said you're gonna roleplay me at 16, Because the 16-year-old you, man, he's there, right?
Yeah, the 16-year-old me.
We're like a deck of cards every day that go back to birth.
The 16-year-old you is looking at you.
In your mind's eye, he's looking at you.
Yeah, looking at me like, what the fuck are you doing?
Because the 16-year-old you...
is aware of the passage of time, right?
So the role play is a way to get you to zoom out of your life, like every day, right?
Every day it's easier to play a video game than move out.
Every day, right?
Every day it's easier to just do something that's familiar and comfortable and decaying, right?
And doesn't add something to your life, right?
Yeah.
Right, so every day it's just a little easier, but then you zoom out and the zoom out happens, right?
Now the zoom out happens in our life and it's called depression.
Depression is the zoom-out view of our life.
Now, every day, it's just a lot easier to do nothing and go with the flow and be who we have always been and not change and not confront and not, right?
Every day, totally easier.
And what happens is, it's like stretching a rubber band, right?
Every day, and then, you know, but the tension grows, right?
As you stretch that rubber band, pull it further apart, the tension grows.
And that tension is called depression, right?
Yeah.
And you know, when you were saying, like, you know, you playing the 16 year old me, it given me shit.
It's like, fuck, I absolutely deserve that.
Like the 16 year old me had so much passion.
Right.
Right.
And it's like, I don't know, like, I guess I've tried doing some stuff to an extent.
And I guess I've gone somewhere, but I just keep getting... No, no, but see your ideal, like, so the ideal self here is like your philosophical self, not like my philosophy or this show or anything.
This is your philosophical self.
Right?
Yeah.
And your philosophical self is not in your life.
So you have these books, this show, these online abstractions that float in your mind the way that this half guy floats in your room, right?
He's half a person because he doesn't have any legs, right?
He doesn't have any legs, he can't connect to the ground, he's got no motion, he's got no life, he's like asleep or dead.
So you've got this ideal self, this platonic self, right?
This perfect you.
But it has no connection to motion and traction in your life, right?
So when I first started this show, I had a tagline.
I still have it, right?
The logic of personal and political liberty.
Personal liberty always came first.
That's why it's first.
It's not the logic of political and personal liberty.
It's the logic of personal and political liberty.
Personal always comes first.
Because if you can't live it in your life, you can't ever require it of others, right?
So, like, you know, the fat personal trainer gets no customers, right?
You gotta live it in your life, and then you can transfer it to others.
So, the dream is, okay, listen man, you've got an ideal self.
Your Steph self, or your philosophical self, or your platonic self, you've got this ideal self.
Which is, all of your abstract philosophical values, they have no connection to your life, and what you actually do.
It's got no legs, It's not even alive, it's just floating there.
And then when you look at yourself, so that's your abstract philosophical self, right?
Yeah.
It's half a person, because it's only in your head, it's not in your legs, it's not in your actions, it's not tangible in your life.
Sorry, you were going to say?
Well, I was going to say that's the person I want to be.
Well, no, it's the person, so, no, because the person you want to be is not half a dead guy floating in your Shitty childhood room.
That's not who you want to be, because you've separated the abstract and the ideal from something that can actually change your life.
Because you listen to philosophical shows, you read philosophical books, you do this, but it doesn't have a connection to actually gaining traction in your life, which is why the guy's floating there.
He's dead, but perfect, right?
Because ideals that are perfect but not acted on are dead.
Your ideal self that you won't manifest is a corpse.
The dreams that you have of a better life, if you won't do things to manifest it, then ideals are death.
Because you have these ideals in your head, and they give you some comfort.
That's the real drug.
The real drug is the ideal self that you won't act on it, right?
Yeah.
And spend countless hours thinking about it.
You know how I said earlier on in our conversation that when I drink or get stoned, I usually like to be by myself?
Well, a lot of it is fantasizing about the life I could have.
Yeah, of course.
This is the ideal guy.
The life that you could have is impossible in your current environment.
Because everything about the dream has a detail that means something.
Every single thing.
And the fact that you're in your room and you have an ideal self that only half exists is dead and doesn't touch the ground and doesn't move.
The guy doesn't move.
He doesn't wake up and say, hey!
He doesn't take off his glasses, right?
Yeah.
So you've got half a dead guy who's your ideal self.
And then you get up because you want to look at yourself, right?
Mm-hmm.
And then you look back at your body on the bed and what do you see?
A ball of light and dark fighting each other.
Now, you know what that is?
I think it's, you know, kind of like me actually achieving that.
Or me not actually achieving that, like actually living by the values I've listened to from you and read in a book.
The dark would be more like repeating the cycle of history.
Okay, yeah, I mean that's very, again, naturally that's a very abstract way, because you're an abstract guy, because you don't put the meat on the ideals, right?
You don't bring them into your life.
Yet!
You will, you will, right?
But yet, right?
Okay.
So, the light and the dark fighting each other is, right now, you have an ideal self that is unattainable, that is unreal, and why are you not Putting the values into practice.
Why are you not moving out?
Why are you not... Now you say, well it's because I don't feel like I'm worth it or whatever.
In which case you would be creating an ideal self in order to torture yourself.
In order to make yourself feel like shit.
You know, sometimes that's what I... No, I get, like the fat woman who has all the pictures on the wall of like the Barbie twins or whoever is the fittest, right?
Like the fat girl puts up all these pictures of the... I remember a girl who was overweight and she used to put... she'd put pictures of these incredibly fit women on her fridge so that she'd go and get... trying to get something and she'd look at these pictures of these incredibly fit women on her fridge and she'd be like... She'd feel like shit, right?
Mm-hmm.
So she doesn't... They're not aspirational.
They're self punitive.
Yeah, instead of looking at those photos to be like, like, I'm gonna be like that.
Yeah, exactly.
She has those photos to make herself feel fat and shitty.
So, oh, God.
Now, I know you don't like telling people what to do, but what the fuck do I need to do?
Like, what am I missing here?
Like, I know you're saying... And you have heard this a million times in the call-in shows, when we get to a place of insight, what do people do?
You know, they kind of like freeze up, ask for, hey, okay, what do I need to do then?
Yeah, they try to avoid the knowledge by jumping into action.
You want to...
Your comment to younger self is, well, I never had a concrete plan.
Now we're getting to a place of genuine insight about your life and suddenly you're rushing out for a plan.
And you're doing that to avoid the emotional impact of the insight.
And I'm not going to, even if I had some magic plan, I wouldn't tell you now.
Because you've got to get to this knowledge about what's keeping you in this room.
So the light and the dark, the light and the dark is the angel and the devil.
The angel is your ideal self, which is unreal in your environment, and the devils are the people who would suffer if you achieve your ideal self.
So who suffers in your life if you grow up and move out?
Oh, everybody.
Tell me who and how are they going to suffer?
Who are they and how are they going to suffer?
Well, I'd say most notably my parents and to an extent my sister.
Like, if I moved out and started living these values, actually got a loving and caring girlfriend and friends, like, they'd kind of feel the emptiness I feel.
Like, they'd be like that fat lady you were talking about looking at photos of Skinny women and being like, like, ah, it would be more like an analogy used a long time ago, that if we're living in a world of obese people, I'd be the one of the first people to become thin.
And they kind of like create, like they, they had no idea that was even possible, you know?
Right.
You would create the concept of fatness by becoming thin.
Yeah.
And you will create a conception of evil by becoming virtuous.
Evil is created in people's minds by the actions of virtuous people around them.
And so for those around you who acted in inexcusably evil ways, you becoming virtuous, you growing legs, standing up and becoming your ideal self, It will put them in hell.
You will cast them down into a pit of everlasting fire.
And I'm not kidding about that.
And that sounds like a big ass analogy.
It's not.
Right now, your ideal self will be a Jesus that creates hell and casts people in your life into it.
And how desperate are they to avoid that fate?
Almost as much as I was with that second dream I sent you.
When I saw myself made out of light, fuck, I freaked out hysterically.
Right.
So the creature made out of light is what happens if the light and dark in your soul, which you see on the bed, if the light wins, then the dream is trying to give you, the second dream, I believe, is trying to give you A sense of empathy for the people in your life who would experience your virtue.
So when you see yourself, if the light wins, right?
In the first stream you've got a ball of light and dark, right?
Yeah.
Now, if the light wins, you look at it and you scream in what sounds like the greatest terror you've experienced in your life.
Oh yeah.
I mean, there's been a close second in a different dream I've had, but yeah, that was definitely the most.
Okay, so the pin that you take off the grenade when you become virtuous and reject evildoers is that they then experience themselves for the first time in their life as evil.
And they desperately do not want you to do that.
So the dream is saying, look, your ideal self is not materialized.
Boom!
Why?
It's not alive, got no legs, doesn't awake.
It's there in your head, but it's not materialized.
The second dream is, and here's why.
Why is your ideal self not materialized?
Well, your ideal self is not materialized because of the terror it would provoke in those around you.
Well, I mean, this isn't too important, but I should mention this.
The dreams happen in reverse order.
I had the dream of looking at myself made of pure light before I had this dream of lying in my bed looking at my ideal self.
I hear what you're saying and I appreciate the correction.
Unconscious is not time-based.
It's not sequential in that way.
The unconscious is simply here are the associations.
Because in the unconscious it's all happening simultaneously.
The moment you have an impulse to go and live your values, to go and live virtue and honesty and integrity, the moment you have that impulse, the screaming starts.
The moment you even think about it, the screaming starts.
Yeah, and I guess that's why I haven't pursued it.
Right?
Right.
You haven't pursued it.
because you were raised to serve evildoers.
And now for you to become virtuous would be to destroy, in a sense, the evildoers by exposing their evil.
If the light wins, the screaming of those around you starts.
Yeah, so in a sense, I guess I'm doing that to myself.
Oh.
Well, it's complex, right?
You've listened enough to my show that I'm in there.
I'm part of the ecosystem.
I'm part of your inner alter egos, right?
Oh, absolutely.
So the person who gets up and looks at this, right?
In the second dream, right?
The person who gets up from the bed and wants to see you closer is me.
And that's this phone call.
And I see the battle of light and dark, right?
I look at you, I look at your ideal self, I look at you, and what do I see?
I see the battle of light and dark.
That's me in the dream.
Or your inner version of me, which is, you know, after ten years is probably pretty damn accurate, right?
Oh yeah.
You know, you've actually appeared in my dreams a few times now.
I have no doubt.
I have no doubt this happens thousands of times a night.
I travel, man.
I'm a rambling man.
I roam.
So, the second dream, the one we talked about first, is me looking at your ideal self, looking back at you, seeing the battle of light and dark.
The first dream, which is the second one we've looked at, is what happens if you accept what I say.
And you become light.
It creates abject, existential, horrifying terror.
You understand, the whole analogy of hell, why is it so powerful?
If we accept that it doesn't exist metaphysically, right?
In some alternate dimension.
Why is the concept of hell so powerful?
And why did it arise only when Jesus came?
Because when Jesus came and he brought universal morality, he created hell for tribalists.
Because the animal side, right?
The mammal versus the angels, right?
The mammal side of us is like, well, my gene pool, my tribe, my group, my friends, my whatever, right?
Serving them is serving the good, and yeah, I'll pretend it's universal virtue, but it's not really, right?
Sometimes I won't even pretend.
So Jesus comes along and creates universal virtue, and then he creates hell.
Because the tribalism that served us, evolutionarily speaking, has to fall away and be replaced by universal morality.
So Jesus and hell come one and together, and why do people believe it so much?
Because the moment you start pursuing universal morality, the moment you start manifesting universal morality, you turn life into hell itself!
For literally billions of people in the world.
You turn on the light, you throw them into the fire.
This is why they resist so strongly, this is why Your parents have put you in a literal shit prison for ten fucking years.
Because you stay in shit, or they go into fire.
Oh, I'd even say it's more than ten years.
Pretty much my whole life.
Yes, I thought of that the moment I said it, but you're absolutely right, you're absolutely right, it's more than ten years.
But they've kept you in the prison for ten years because you could have left at sixteen.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you know, when I was sixteen, fuck man, I did a lot of work.
You know, my sister didn't like doing her paper route too much.
I did her paper route.
I did my own paper route.
I'm like, okay, yes, I'm going to get a nice job.
I'm going to get a nice career going.
I'm going to get my own place.
I get all of that, but I want to make sure we stay on this because this isn't the end of the issue, right?
Well, the insight that we have had here is only about three on the scale of one to 10.
And now we're going for the 10th.
Okay.
Are you ready?
Ah, yes.
Are you sure?
It's been ten years in the making, man.
Are you ready?
Yes, do it.
Do you want it?
Yep.
Okay.
The real reason that you can't manifest your values is that there's a part of you that feels evil.
Oh, that makes sense.
The part of you that screams is the part of you, because of your involvement in the child molestation ring.
There's a part of you that feels evil, which is why you can't manifest the values.
Yes, it's your parents.
Yes, it's, you know, the other evildoers in your life and your history and so on, right?
We don't voluntarily jump into a lake of lava, right?
Yeah.
And so for you, it's like, okay, I'm going to be a good man, I'm going to be an honest man, I'm going to have integrity, I'm going to get loved, I'm going to raise good kids!
Oh wait, no, I can't.
Because for five to seven years I was involved in this molestation stuff.
Well, I'd say it's even a bit more than that.
You know, because of how long I've listened to your show and some of the books I've read, like, I know these things that I don't act upon them.
Like, to use a metaphor you've used before, like, I know the cure to help one of the biggest diseases going around the world, but I don't lift a finger to do anything about it.
Like, does that make any sense?
Yeah, I mean, so the mistreatment, so let's go back to you're six years old, right?
Four or five.
Four or five years old, right?
And Mike, the guy you referred to older, I know it's not his real name, but Mike, the older boy, is like drawing you into this molestation stuff, right?
Yeah.
Now, he's a child.
Does he know it's wrong?
Of course he does.
Mm-hmm.
Because he hid it.
It's in the closet, right?
Yeah, that was the first thing you mentioned.
Don't tell your parents.
Don't tell your parents.
So he knew it was wrong, and he was what?
He was probably six or seven at the time.
Six or seven, okay.
Now, he was also a victim, obviously.
Yeah, you don't just learn that out of nowhere.
God, no.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely.
So he was preyed upon by probably an adult or at least an older sibling.
The older sibling themselves was preyed upon.
An adult is somewhere in there starting this domino going, right?
I wouldn't be surprised if it was his father.
It would be most likely his father or a close family relation.
Yeah, creepy uncle or something.
Right.
Can you draw a circle of white light around all the children groping each other in the closet And hold up the two fingers of forgiveness.
Uh, what do you mean?
Like, forgive them?
Or forgive me?
Everyone.
Everyone who was a child.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
There was a long time where, even though we were kids, I absolutely hated Mike.
But at the same time, he was just as much of a victim as I was.
Okay, so if you can forgive them, why do you still feel you don't deserve virtue and happiness?
Because you're in that, too.
can you forgive them but not yourself yeah maybe Thank you.
you But I mean, like... What do you do, what do you do with the basic fact that you took pleasure in touching the genitals of children?
As a child, yourself, obviously, but what do you do with that?
Where does that sit in your mind, in your conscience, in your heart?
Hmm...
Can you say that again?
Sorry.
Ask me that again.
Earlier you said... I'm not trying to catch you out, right?
It's just, you know... No, I get you.
So earlier you said that you took pleasure in it sometimes, right?
Yeah.
Right.
So what do you do with the fact that you took pleasure in sex play as a child with other children?
And not really play.
I understand what that means, right?
You blacked out the first time.
You don't do that when you're playing hide-and-go-seek or anything like that, right?
But what do you do with that fact?
How do you evaluate that morally?
Does that make you feel unclean, impure, doomed, damned?
How do you process it?
Well, I kind of process it in two ways.
Like, definitely what you said there, that I kind of damn myself for it, but at the same time, like, I kind of forgive myself for it because, I mean, it's not like I knew much better.
Like, I was just a kid, and I was like, you know, to use another analogy of use, I was being taught Mandarin, and I don't know, I can't really blame myself for learning that language.
You can't.
And at the age of six, you desperately tried with all the detail you could muster.
And I've never heard of that before.
It's an incredible thing to do, to give the story to your mother.
Obviously, at the age of 35 or 30 or however old she was, she was infinitely more morally responsible than you at the age of six, right?
Yeah, but I took that burden on myself.
And you literally shit yourself trying to get society, everyone around you, to wake up to what the hell was going on.
Yeah.
You shit yourself.
I mean, the stink of you shitting yourself You understand what that was?
That was you trying to say to someone, ask me why.
Yeah.
Ask me why this is happening.
Ask me why.
And what did society do?
Oh, the exact opposite.
They shit on you.
Uh-huh.
We don't care.
We're not going to ask.
And in fact, we're going to use your desperate cry for help as a further means and methodology of victimizing, abusing, and insulting you.
The doctor who literally smells shit on me at the age of 15 is never going to ask me why.
I mean, I've mentioned this story before.
You've heard it.
Other people haven't, of course.
But, you know, when I first hit puberty, that's when you get body odor, right?
A friend of mine's father, who was a doctor, had to give me deodorant and tell me to use it.
Yeah.
Wait a minute, why don't you know this?
Isn't anyone in your house looking out for you?
But didn't want to know, right?
Didn't want to know.
So you were very clearly signaling that something incredibly dysfunctional was happening to your body involving the anus, right?
Mm-hmm.
That you, you know, however transitory the pleasure or relief you may have taken in this, you were willing to shit yourself on a regular basis Rather than participate in, I assume, what was increasingly dangerous, molestation, as people get into puberty and, right, this is dangerous as hell, right?
They start to get the hormones, the full erections, there could have been anal rape, it could have damaged your body, right?
Yeah.
It could have gotten really violent, really ugly, really vicious.
Probably would have.
So you did everything you possibly could to get help.
Yeah, and I was met with indifference or insults or whatever it be.
Insults.
Insults.
Yeah.
you know, Insults.
So here's the trick that evil does, man.
Here's the trick that evil does.
What evil does is it crashes your airplane on a snowy mountain where there's no cell signal and no rescue.
and then calls you a cannibal when you have to stay alive by eating the bodies.
You tried absolutely everything that you could to get some kind of help.
and And also withdrawing from this molestation ring was a very dangerous thing, which is why you kept crapping your pants after, like for years afterwards.
Because they would be afraid that you might go to the authorities, that you might go to a teacher who would then have a duty to report.
Or that maybe you'd gotten into therapy and you would talk about this and then the therapist would have a duty to report.
And the whole scheme would be blown wide open.
And then, and then, you would be revealed to somebody who was in this molestation circle.
And how would that go for you given how Telling the truth, trying to get help, and crapping your own pants to protect yourself as a desperate cry for help.
How would that work?
Very badly.
How would it work if society was made aware directly of this molestation ring?
Well, we know.
We know.
So you, at a very early age, were inducted into the truly horrifying nature of society.
Which is that when children show massive symptoms of intense abuse, society, by mocking the children, attacking and further humiliating the children, sides with the abusers.
I just did a show on this, right?
Society sides with the abusers, society sides with the abusers, society sides with the abusers.
Right?
Yep.
Certainly happened with me publicly over and over again, right?
When I help people, adult victims of child abuse.
Sidey sides with the abusers.
Well, that's because you're just clearly narcissistic, right?
Yeah, yeah.
It's a cult, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So, the screaming comes from everywhere around you.
All the teachers, all of the parents, your parents, extended family, everybody who knew, your friends, parents, like everyone is in on this.
Yeah, and you know, going back to that dream with me screaming, I wasn't actually scared of myself.
That was me I was looking at, right?
I just started screaming.
Right, and so when there is an overwhelming amount of evil in the environment, it feels narcissistic, honestly, for a lot of people.
I don't mean you, just for a lot of people when there's an overwhelming amount of evil in the environment.
It feels narcissistic to say, none of it is mine.
None of it is me.
Because it's like, okay, so wait.
If I become a virtuous person, that means everybody in my past who knew about or had strong reasons to suspect of the abuse that I was suffering, everybody in my past is going to have their evils rejected.
Reveal to them.
Like, to imagine, right?
Someone hears this story, and it was a doctor of yours from 20 years ago or 10 years ago or whatever, right?
Yeah.
And that doctor is like, oh my god.
I smell feces coming off this kid, and that's because he was being molested.
And I ignored it.
How's he gonna feel?
Oh, he's gonna feel like shit.
Yeah.
So how much does he want you to stay in your room, smoke weed, and play video games?
Oh fuck, he'd pay me to do it if he could.
He would.
He would.
And so for you to get out there means that you have to stand as a pillar of light and when people stand in front of that pillar of light and they look at themselves they just see a shadow that stretches from here to eternity.
Yeah, well before then they thought they were alive.
Thought they were doing good and then I come along and it's like, hey, knock knock.
Yeah, turns out you're not such a nice person after all.
Right?
This is to everyone around you.
Right?
Turns out, it turns out, it turns out that they're evildoers who mocked a victimized child rather than ask why.
You were crapping yourself.
And this goes... These layers of immorality are like everywhere in the world.
Always have been.
And this is in the West, which is supposedly one of the most child-friendly cultures, and is really the most child-friendly culture in the world.
Yeah.
So this is in the West.
I mean, imagine what it's like in India or Saudi Arabia or wherever, right?
This is in the West, where at least the ideals are, well, the children, we care about the children, we do anything for our kids, blah blah blah, right?
Oh, you're crapping yourself as a basic self-defense against anal rape?
Oh, well, you're just a, you know, a terrible kid who, you know, is going to yell at you and scream at you and all of that, right?
Yeah, being lazy.
Yeah, it is like defying gravity, it almost feels like, to take zero evil for yourself.
And put it all on society?
Oof!
Now, does that mean you never do anything wrong?
No, of course not.
But as a kid, right?
As a kid.
To take zero evil upon yourself.
and say, "No, no, it's all society." That you tried, man, you tried.
You tried, you tried, you tried.
I tried too, man, if it's any consolation.
I tried to.
I didn't face the same issues that you were facing.
I mean, everyone has their own particular cross to bear.
Yours is pretty damn big, but... No, I would go over to a friend of mine's place for maybe two or three years, from the age of eleven onwards.
And, you know, we'd sit and chat, and, you know, we'd play a video game or two or whatever, right?
And he had a chalkboard down there, and I would draw, on that chalkboard, faces with the eye stalks hanging out.
Holes in the cheeks.
Rotting skin falling off the bones.
Zombie heads, right?
Yeah.
Now, what am I doing this for?
I'm doing this as somebody says.
You know, when I was younger I used to carry around a doll's leg in my pocket.
Because I felt emotionally and psychologically dismembered by my environment, right?
Now, of course, when you do these kinds... it's like the goth kids, right?
Everyone is like... nobody says, why are you a goth person?
What abuse have you suffered that makes you want to be a goth person?
No, they just say, oh, you're weird.
Yeah.
Right?
Like with you.
I'm saying the same thing with you, right?
So we're all trying... Well, I'm just definitely a bit of a goth myself.
Yeah.
We're all... we're all trying... we're all trying to tell everyone.
We're all trying to tell everyone.
All the time, when we're kids.
Never stops.
Never stops.
I used to... I had books of... I was really into sharks, and I got some books, and some of those books had pictures of shark attack victims.
Right?
Like Ron, someone or other, right?
And, you know, mutilated bodies and all that.
And I would show these to my friends.
And they would be somewhat fascinated, but it's like, why am I showing you mutilated bodies?
Because I'm being mutilated myself.
Yeah, you know, I had something similar too.
I didn't show much like that, but I used to draw stuff like that.
Yeah.
A good bit too.
And this has become kind of a commonplace in movies, right?
Now movies is like this, this is what your kid drew and it's like some scary, creepy, weird scene and everyone's like, oh my God, it's going to be a school shooter or whatever.
Sorry, you were going to say something?
Well, um, you know how I said I was bullied a lot?
Well, usually the only time I wouldn't be bullied was when I shared images like that.
Like I used to draw a warning sign.
Yeah, I used to draw little stick figures of pretty violent things.
Right.
You know, be it, uh, you know, people with like spikes on their feet or, you know, holding a weapon or whatever it be.
It's the only time I really got along with my peers is when I did stuff like that.
Right.
I mean, the Dungeons and Dragons things too.
I mean, what did we do?
We battled evildoers, ghosts, demons, devils.
Right, so, yeah, children are always talking about this stuff.
Always, like, just, please, please, everybody, just look at this.
Look at what's happening to us.
Look at what's happening to us.
And society's like, nope, sorry, need political donations from the teachers unions, too bad you get shitty schools.
So it's a wild act of moral willpower to say, I was great as a kid.
Yeah, messed up stuff happened as I tried to survive.
It always happens in war that messed up stuff is going to happen, right?
Yeah.
You know, some guy dies, you take his shoes.
Why?
Because your feet are freezing.
Yeah, or take his armor because maybe his armor is better or yeah, maybe his weapon.
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely and then you know people are like, oh I can't believe all the terrible things I did it's like you were in war man Yeah, you can't blame yourself for that I mean you can if you want but that just says the evildoers, right?
The evildoers want you to blame yourself for the world that they created And your parents and your society and your environment and your teachers created this hellscape.
Somebody fucked with those kids and turned them into molesters.
And your parents didn't react.
The teachers didn't react.
Extended family didn't react.
Friends and friends' parents didn't react or reacted negatively in a hostile manner.
The school psychologist and counselor didn't react.
Your doctor didn't react.
You get all of this, right?
Yeah.
So you didn't make this world that you were thrown into.
And I'll be goddamned if I will take one ounce or one shred or one speck of moral condemnation for the shitstorm I had to navigate as a child that I did nothing to create.
You didn't go out and try to get molested.
You didn't go out and try to have to come up with shitting your pants as a defense against anal rape.
You didn't come up with any of that.
You didn't create any of that.
You were just trying to survive the war against the children.
Yeah.
I just wanted to, you know, make some sandcastles.
Yeah.
You just want to have a fun chat.
I asked why to just about everything.
Why is this like that?
Why is that like this?
Why is the sky blue?
Why is, why really?
Right.
And I was intensely curious as a kid, as I imagine most kids are.
I mean, every kid's favorite question is why.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, I mean, I see, I think, more of the natural childhood in my daughter, right?
Oh, I can see it, too.
Yeah, you can hear it, right?
She said in a show the other day, unprompted, like the least abused person in the world, right?
And you can see this joy and curiosity and natural virtue.
You know, she's got these ducks, she's incredibly gentle and tender and wonderful with the ducks and all of that, and she's got a tough streak and, you know, that's a natural That's a natural human being in a state of non-violence.
And how old is she again?
Like 13?
She's almost 13.
Yeah.
She's smarter than most university students.
Well, I mean, she certainly has, I think, access to unfettered intelligence.
So you're like facing this tidal wave of like the world is terrible to children.
The power structures that exist only exist Because the world is terrible to children.
And for you to look back into your history and say, I'm going to accept none of it.
I didn't make the world.
I didn't make the schools.
I didn't make my parents.
I didn't make my doctors.
I didn't make my teachers.
I didn't make my school counselors.
I didn't make any of it.
I'm not responsible for the choices they made when I was 5 or 10 or 15.
I'm still not responsible as an adult for the Decisions they made when I was little.
I'm going to take none of it.
I take no guilt for the shitty world that other people created through their moral cowardice and laziness.
I take nothing.
I take none of it.
I take no shame, no guilt, some fear sometimes because people can be pretty dangerous when you start to expose their evils, right?
Oh, absolutely.
People will, you know, if it's Like all of the negative labels that people put on me is pure projection.
Oh yeah.
It's pure projection.
And, you know, so there are risks involved and all of that.
But, oh yeah, people would rather you be playing video games and people would rather you be smoking pot or drinking or, you know, staying in this little room.
Because all who become light must be doused.
Nobody wants to see the shape of the world, and we can only see the shape of the world as it really is.
Through the bright sun of actual virtue.
When people become virtue, lights go on.
People see the monsters, and they think, oh my god, there are monsters.
The light gets a little brighter, and they see that the monsters are just a mirror.
They don't want you doing it, man.
They desperately don't want you doing it.
Well, frankly, I'm at the point where I don't really give a fuck.
That's their conscience to deal with, not mine.
Right.
So, it's forgiving yourself as a child is a bit of a misnomer because it's saying that you have something to forgive.
Right.
Right?
I shoplifted a couple of things when I was 11 or 12.
Right?
Oh, do I forgive myself?
No, there's nothing to forgive.
Nothing to forgive.
Society showed no respect for me as property.
They treated me as an object.
Yeah.
So why on earth would I respect the property rights of a society that doesn't respect my personhood?
Right?
There's nothing to forgive for yourself as a child.
Yeah, you were just speaking the language you were taught.
And me too, really.
Absolutely.
Because when you go through great evils as you went through, you become one of three things.
You become evil, you become absent, or you become incandescent.
There's only three options.
When you suffer through extreme evils, you either become evil, you become absent, or you become incandescent.
Now, I think your dream is saying, if you become incandescent, there's great danger in it.
You're not going to become evil.
And you're done with absence.
You're done with not being in the world.
Mm-hmm.
Alec, I am so sick of myself.
Honestly, like, you know, when you were doing that role play, it's like, why the fuck didn't I do anything?
Like, I know I want it, but you know... But this is why I'm giving you the scope of what you're facing so that you can forgive yourself for that.
It's hard waking up to the world as hell.
And it's very hard when your virtues create the hell in those around you.
Mm-hmm.
So, if you understand the unbelievable height of the wall you're expected to climb and how incredibly, like, it's like trying to break out of East Berlin back in the day, right?
There's a wall and there's like ten machine gun nests who try to shoot anyone who tries to get over the wall, right?
Yeah, it's almost impossible.
I mean, I went through, as you went through, a decade and a half plus of violence or neglectful child abuse in full sight, sound and hearing of, in my case, probably at least a thousand people.
And not one of them acted.
Not one of them, since I became a public and prominent figure, not one of them has ever emailed me and said, you know what?
I did hear that.
I'm so sorry.
I did know that you were being beaten.
I did know about all of that.
I mean, no one.
Not one person.
Not one person.
Tells you everything you need to know about the war.
Yeah, there was nobody who stood up for me.
That's for damn sure.
My father, before he died, never contacted me to say, I'm actually really am sorry that I left you with a violent, unstable and abusive mother.
I'm really sorry.
I should have fought harder.
I should have worked harder.
But instead he was like, well, yeah, I couldn't be a gold geologist in England.
I had to go to Africa.
Okay, so you found your gold.
You lost your son.
Found your gold, lost your son.
I hope it was worth it.
And he even became a Christian, a staunch Christian, Anglican, later in his life.
Now, when you, when you become that bright, people can't, most people can't stand to be around you.
Like, they can't stand it.
It's like coming out of a movie theater back in the day, right?
You have it as you go and see some movie, you know, some alien or Vin Diesel Space movie where it's just like nothing but blacks and grays.
And then you come out into like the afternoon sunlight.
It's like, ah, I spikes of blinding doom, right?
Or even at night, honestly.
Yeah.
And so you become that bright.
And you, you burn people up around you.
They, they, they turn to ash.
They disintegrate.
They like, it's wild.
I can't stand to be around you.
Now, of course, they think that it's just you being a bad person and hurting them, right?
So all of the primitive projections come into play.
So, look, you may be tempted, of course, to think, ah, but I wasted ten years, it's terrible, and look, man, you look at this, first of all, you're ahead of where I was at 26, because you at least having access to these kinds of conversations, right?
But if you understand the scale of immorality in society as it stands.
And it's the worst kind of immorality, because at least the societies that are openly child hostile, at least they're not hypocritical.
Yeah.
But our society, which is supposedly so child positive, still operates on, you know, it's like that, I don't know if you've ever seen the old movie from Alan Parker called The Wall, right?
Pink Floyd's, right?
The kids, they fall into the government education system, get ground up into paste.
Right?
And there's real truth in that, right?
So, if you look at the scale of evil, even if you say to society, okay, you take 99%, I'll take 1%.
Well, that's still pretty... that's a lot of evil.
It's like, okay, you eat 99 chickens, I'll still eat a whole chicken myself.
It's like, that's a lot of chicken, man.
And to take zero?
To take zero?
For what happened as a child?
To take zero?
That takes some balls, man.
It takes a real boss to say, nope, I'll take none of it.
Thank you very much.
None of it.
Cause I didn't make the world.
No, I'm not taking anything.
Sorry, go ahead.
It's funny you mentioned the wall.
Cause I remember you saying that when you started talking about the lyrics of the wall and, uh, a friend of yours made like a album or something and had some lyrics from the wall and your mom freaked out.
No, he made a cartoon as a friend of mine.
Oh, yeah.
When we were kids, he used to do cartoons of us playing Dungeons and Dragons and I used to play.
And here's another thing.
This is what I was thinking.
Oh, kids are trying to talk all the time.
I'd have friends over.
I'd play the wall.
I was like, dude.
It's about a dangerous mother who's destroying a child.
So yeah, he had that little album in the background.
Mum was going to make all of your nightmares come true.
My mum found it and freaked out.
And then we had to say, oh no, no, it's just an album.
It's just a song that I like.
Here it is on the album.
It's not like what I actually believe.
We had to sort of pamper her and all of that, right?
So a friend of mine was writing about a mother who makes all of your nightmares come true, knowing that I was obsessed with the album, obsessed with the song, and no one ever talked to me about anything.
Now, of course, you know, everybody looks up everybody from time to time.
I'm sure a lot of the people I knew when I was a teenager have looked me up.
How many of them have contacted me to say, oh, you know what?
I am, uh... I am sorry that I didn't pay any attention to that.
You did have it pretty rough, right?
And then I could ask them how they really had it and we could have... No, doesn't happen.
Doesn't matter.
Won't ever hear about it.
Everybody covers up.
All society is is a big giant bulldozer burying bodies.
So I hope that you can, uh...
Be kind and gentle with yourself and say, look, once I look at, accept and absorb the evils embedded in society, then I can be a good person.
Manifest it.
If you manifest it without understanding it, you're in significant danger.
Right?
Like, I mean, if you think it's a kitten in the woods, Right?
But it's actually a mountain lion that's really hungry.
If you don't see the scope and magnitude of what you're facing, it can be incredibly dangerous.
So I think in giving you the size and scope of what you're facing, even in just your personal life, hundreds of people throughout the course of your childhood, hundreds of people, probably thousands given that your particular defense mechanism was stench, right?
So at least hundreds, probably thousands of people over the course of your life knew Or had reason to believe that you were undergoing extraordinary dangers as a child.
Kids don't just wake up and say, hey, I think I'm going to crap myself today for funsies, right?
Nobody wants to do that.
So hundreds or thousands of people had very good reason to ask you a simple question.
Why?
Why?
Now we're so used to evading that I have to ask why sometimes you, other people, myself sometimes too, right?
Fifty times or a hundred times or whatever, a dozen times.
But... Everybody turned away.
And joined in.
Yeah.
How are you supposed to fight against the children preying on you when the adults use the symptoms as an excuse to prey upon you further?
How on earth are you supposed to find any safe place to be?
Well, you know, that's probably part of the reason why I played so much video games as a kid, and even now.
It's the only time I felt comfort and solace.
Well, nobody betrays you in video games, right?
Maybe online ones a little bit here and there, but if you're playing, certainly, like, first-person games or one-player games, I mean... No, you're always the hero.
You're in control of the environment, you're in control of the variables, and no one betrays you.
Yeah, and on top of that, you're usually the hero.
Right, right, right.
Right.
I also wanted to mention the dream with the floating guy and half the body.
That's a reference to video games as well, right?
That your ideal self is in video games because in video games you can have, you could create that scene in a video game, no problem, right?
Because you can defy the laws of physics in video games because it's all programmed, right?
You can create any laws of physics.
You can have a half guy floating there in a room and you can have a battle of light and dark.
So the video games is the unreality of the courage, if that makes sense.
No, it definitely does, because like a lot of video games I like to play, like I'm building civilizations, I'm fighting evil, you know, I'm kicking ass, taking names, getting women, all the things I should be doing in real life.
Well, but again, I hope that, you know, once you absorb the scope of what you're facing, once you absorb the scope of what you're facing and the evils that were done to you, By people siding with and joining in with the abusers.
Then you will forgive yourself for not going out there somewhat blind and thinking you're going to take on a little cat and there's like, I don't know, 10 mountain lions or something, right?
I guess that's a good way to get yourself... With machine guns?
Yeah, yeah.
Seriously injured, right?
If you go out underestimating the scope of what you're facing.
So if you understand the scope of what you're facing, then you can Get the safe people in your environment, right?
So you can't become the person you want to be.
You can't manifest your ideal self in your current environment because your parents will react.
Well, we know how they're going to react, right?
In as destructive and hostile a manner as humanly possible.
Hell, it even seems like the moment I have a thought of doing any of that, it's fucking, I'm getting slapped down.
Right.
So yeah, once you understand the scope and what it takes to become incandescent, then you have to recognize how much you need to get to safe environment with, you know, good people who will value and treasure your virtues rather than view them as a spell that casts them into the pit of everlasting fire.
You know, I really liked your metaphor with Jesus earlier, because it really seems like my best bet to find good people It would be in a church, honestly.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, certainly as far as universal values go, I would say that Christianity's got a slight edge over UPB as far as general acceptance goes and all of that.
I mean, yeah, there are the woke churches and there are the hypocrisy churches and all of that, but I would say, yeah, definitely it would be a great place to look.
Yeah, because when it comes to your shows, surprisingly, some of my favorite shows of yours have been talking about Christianity.
And I'm a pretty strong atheist myself.
I'm like, holy fuck.
But atheism cannot contain the depth and breadth of evil in the world, which is why atheists tend to, well, they flock to the state.
Because it really is only in the character and personhood of the devil and his assorted minions that the evils of society, and of course Christianity starts with the man has fallen and society is immoral, and so it is more accurate than the You know, we can tweak everything into virtue, leftist atheist crap, right?
Where, you know, the pessimism about human nature is the foundation of a stateless society, right?
Which is, yeah, power will corrupt everyone and we know that just by looking around the world.
And so, the Christian pessimism regarding human nature is much more aligned with a stateless society than the idiot optimism of the leftist atheists.
Yeah, we just Give the government a whole bunch of power and a whole bunch of money and everything will be great.
Yeah, surrender brings virtue.
No, no, no, can't do it.
Okay, listen, I know we've been talking for a long time.
Is there anything that you wanted to mention at the end?
How's the convo been for you as a whole?
Well, you know, I said to myself that I wouldn't fall into the same trap every caller before me has.
And I fell into the same trap.
Yeah, I hear you.
I don't know, maybe trap's the wrong word, but like... Oh, same habits.
Yeah, it's our common humanity, right?
Yeah.
I knew we were going to be talking about my childhood.
I've listened to enough shows to know, and I hope I did a good job of talking about that.
You did.
But when it came to you roleplaying me as 16, I was totally not expecting that.
You probably noticed I got awfully quiet there.
You did, and to your credit, you did a fantastic job, by the way.
And yeah, the zoom out is really important, because if you zoom out of your life to get the big picture, you can also zoom out of society and look for the bigger patterns, and I think those things can work well together.
But sorry, you were saying?
Well, you were mentioning that I can understand the abstracts well, but not so much, I guess, I don't know, what would be the best way to put it?
Well, implementing them will provoke an opposition that I don't think you're prepared for as yet.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Because, I mean, another reason why I got into Smoke and Pot was I didn't like feeling the way I did.
A lot of the emotions, like, you know, looking at, say, something like Star Trek, I fucking love the Vulcans because they're all logic and no emotions, you know?
And I guess that's But I mean, I think Leonard Nimoy was a raging alcoholic while he was making that show.
Oh, was he really?
You know, I don't really pay much attention to actors themselves.
I love the characters.
No, but you should, because the actors, to manifest those roles, have to have particular kinds of personalities.
And, I mean, he was a mess.
I mean, he was drinking a lot, and he also was, if I remember rightly, and also he was, at the end of the day, shoots, he would like spend an hour just sobbing, right?
Because all that repression of emotion, right?
So you see them on screen, you don't see, like, a character half-drove into a mental breakdown.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess there was that one guy that played Joker that eventually killed himself.
Yeah, that's right.
Like, that was like, I don't know, probably eight years ago now, but I mean, it does make sense.
Well, yeah, I mean, I did Raskolnikov versus the Joker, a show which people can look up at fdrpodcast.com.
I was talking about this, like, he came very close to the evils of the world in that character, and it probably did him in.
Yeah.
All right, well, listen, will you keep me posted about how things are going?
Oh, absolutely.
I'm not going anywhere.
All right.
Listen, I appreciate the conversation enormously, and thank you for your courage in this.
Very open, very clear, and I'm sure you're going to have a great life, and I really do appreciate the chat tonight.
Yeah, I appreciate it a lot too, Steph.
I thought I had these dreams figured out, but I was nowhere close.
Well, it's a big nasty world to wrap your brain around.
All right.
Keep it posted.
Thanks again, brother.
Take care.
Thanks.
Have a good night.
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