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June 1, 2021 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:20:47
"I TALK TO MY MOM 3 HOURS A DAY..." Freedomain Call In
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So our caller tonight writes.
He'll also, by the way, go by anonymous.
First, a little bit of info about me.
I'm a 31 year old, single, no kids, never married guy.
I have a degree as an engineer in mechatronics and currently work as a software systems engineer.
I'm Eastern European born and moved to France in 2011 with my studies to finish my degree.
I decided after that to stay and live here.
I came from a poverty background and was raised by a single mom widow.
I now live a decent average life.
Something worth mentioning is that I have a responsibility constraint, not a burden.
It's my mother who is older and still in relatively okay health.
She is soon to be 71 years old.
I need help with two related situations for the choices that I have to make.
These choices are crucial and related as they will have a major impact on my life and will chain me in one place for a long time most of my life.
The first question would be concerning my mother where I need to make a decision.
I need to get her to a decent place to live in because her old house is no longer possible.
Her house is degrading and I really don't like the neighborhood.
It's a ghetto. Even though some small investment would make it possible to live in that house.
It could be okay and spare me alone, and if I get back there, I could live there with her.
The first choice would be to stay here in France, get a loan, and buy an apartment in my home country in Eastern Europe for my mom to stay in.
The problem with this solution is that I can't really count on her good health.
A retirement home there would be at a reasonable price with my French salary.
The second choice would be to buy something here in France if I decided to stay here forever with more rooms and take my mom in.
That would be complicated because if her health worsens, I wouldn't be able to take her to a retirement home here.
The second question would be about girls and the wife question.
I would like to have kids and find myself a decent, loving, mentally stable, and cute woman.
I don't think I can find one here in France, especially where I live in the Paris suburbs.
That's why I'm thinking to go to my home country as it's mostly like a second world country where I think I could find a decent woman and or enjoy more success with women.
More traditionally inclined women back there as they say.
Do you think I should go to Eastern Europe with the hope of finding a wife and or have better success with women?
What would be a wise decision for long-term happiness?
I think the main question is to stay here abroad in France as it offers better life opportunities and quality of life.
Or go back to my birth country where I know that life will be harder, but I could possibly get a good girl.
One of the major issues that I face here is that I can't really make meaningful friendships or build a solid social circle containing of quality people.
I'm also in doubt as a loan would put a big red flag on my head if I want to build a family later and buy a house with my future woman if I will ever have her.
I'm troubled as I don't know how much I should sacrifice for my mother because letting her live alone is like a death sentence for old people.
Should I take her in with me even though that would be very constraining on my life?
I'm also asking these questions because I would like to do something with my life.
Something which is more meaningful and also live a good life.
Money, ladies, friends, relationships.
And I think here it's not possible.
You know what they say about the West.
What do you think about all this?
Well, I appreciate your patience.
Thank you for joining us.
Your mom's 71. How old are you?
Hello, Stefan. How are you?
I'm well, thanks. Well, I'm 31, as I said.
Oh, so your mom had you kind of late, right?
right?
She was 40?
Yeah, she was 40.
Right.
And what happened?
You said, so if she's a single mom, she can't be a widower.
A single mom is a woman who has either been left by her husband or has left the husband or the father of her children.
A widow is just an annoying little thing.
I just, I don't want single moms riding on the backs of widows who have legitimately suffered through no fault of their own usually, right?
The single moms either married the wrong guy or dated the wrong guy or drove away a good guy, right?
So there's more choice there, but the widowhood, you know, your dad gets hit by a bus, then she is a...
She is not that way.
To answer your question, well, the idea is that my father was an alcoholic and he died when I was five.
And she had the opportunity to marry, but she didn't.
She chose to stay single and raise me and take care of me.
Right. So, what did your father die of?
Alcohol. Oh, so he drank himself to death?
No, he drank too much and he had some...
I don't know the name in English of that organ.
No, it's the one that does insulin.
A pancreas? Yeah.
So, did he destroy his health through drinking?
Yeah. Boy, not breaking a lot of Eastern European stereotypes there, but I guess those stereotypes exist for a reason.
And... So your mom really married a bad provider, a bad husband, a bad father, right?
Yes, yes. He was a good guy, but he had this addiction.
He couldn't quit for the alcohol.
Hang on, let's back up for a second here, right?
Because, you know, for me it's always countdown to excuses and the excuses usually come pretty fast and furious, right?
So I said your mother married a guy who was a bad husband and a bad father, and he was, right?
You can say, well, he had this addiction, he drank too much or whatever, right?
But she knew that about him when she married him.
I assume that he wasn't like a guy who didn't drink too much and then suddenly became an alcoholic later on, right?
So she chose to marry a guy who had a massive drinking problem to the point where he died young, right?
Just to interrupt you a little, No, not really, because it was like an Eastern European communist marriage.
Someone from the family that she trusted presented this guy to her, an aunt of her.
Oh, so she had no choice?
It was a forced marriage? No, no, it was not a forced marriage.
So people said this would be a good guy to marry and she said okay and he was an alcoholic, right?
Yeah, she discovered later that he was an alcoholic.
Discovered later? What do you mean?
They didn't spend any time together before they got married?
Yes, but he was not drinking that much in that period.
Well, of course, you don't know, right?
I mean, just what your mom's saying, right?
Yes, yes, yes.
Right. So, listen, you're not a dad yet, right?
You're only 31. I know you want to be a dad, but let me tell you this.
It doesn't mean your mom's lying.
I'm just saying here's some reason to be skeptical.
Is that if you're a parent and you want to give your kids the best chance in life, you have to not make excuses for yourself.
But the temptation to make excuses is so big when you're a parent.
Because you have so much power, you need to have authority, you need to be looked on with respect.
And so the temptation to make excuses for yourself And the rewards in the short run for making excuses for yourself is so overwhelming that it's one of the most difficult temptations in the world to resist, which is to make excuses for you.
I'll give you a tiny example, right?
A couple of days ago, My daughter and I were playing with a couple of friends on Rocket League.
And the other team was beating, it was three versus three, my daughter and I and a friend and a couple of other friends on the other side.
And they were beating us like seven to one and they were still working very hard to score.
And I found that kind of annoying, right?
Because like, okay, we get it, you know.
Oh no, we had a bot. We had a bot and the bot wasn't doing much good at all.
And I got annoyed.
Now, here's something that is interesting, I think, which is a couple of games down the road, like maybe a half hour later, we were up 5-1, and I was still trying to score.
Interesting point, right? So my daughter got this instinctively, right?
And what she said was, hey, you were annoyed when they were overscoring on us, but now you want to overscore on them.
There were a few mitigating circumstances, which I won't even bother getting into here.
And my very great temptation was to just make up an excuse on the spot.
And what I did was I said, yeah, you know, we'll talk about it.
And then afterwards, I sort of thought about it and I thought, you know what, that's a really good point.
Of course, I was annoyed when people were overscoring on me because it seemed like overkill.
But then when I was winning, I wanted to overscore on others.
Right.
And that's a contradiction.
Right.
It's a lack of empathy.
Right.
Which is that they would be annoyed or maybe I was just being petty about not wanting to lose or whatever it was.
Right.
So I didn't make up an excuse.
And I'm smart and eloquent enough that I could have made up some plausible excuse that my daughter would have bought, at least for the time being or whatever.
But I had to say, you know what, it's a great point.
I'm supposed to be Mr. Universality, and yet I have a principle here I don't like being overscored on, but then I was wanting to overscore on another team.
That is a contradiction, and I appreciate you bringing that up, right?
And that's just a minor example of don't make excuses as a parent.
Your kids will point out things that are a problem for you.
And you, of course, miss your dad.
You wanted to have a dad. You wanted to have a good dad.
And your dad drank himself to death.
And you are going to, to some degree, as a child, you're going to hold your mother responsible.
Now, to me, and this is like PhD parenting, right?
But the very top tier of parenting is you don't make excuses for yourself.
And the reason you don't make excuses for yourself, even though it's so tempting, you have such great power to do it, and the immediate rewards are enormous.
But you don't do it because it kind of cripples your kids.
And if you hold your kids to be responsible, when they're, my daughter's 12 and a half now, right?
So if I'm going to say at the age of 54, my daughter is responsible, but I'm not, that makes no sense, right?
Because if I excuse myself, but then have standards for my daughter, That's just an exercise in power.
So my particular approach when I'm having conversations with people, I assume, I assume, and, you know, 99 times out of 100, right?
But I assume...
What the hell is overscoring?
Oh, well, so if you're winning 7-1 and you're still grinding in more scores...
You know, and it's like a friendly game, then it kind of being a douchebag, right?
I mean, it's, especially when you're scoring against, and it was partly because I didn't, you know, I wanted my daughter to enjoy the game.
And if people are like, yeah, we're going to be, it's going to be 10-1 rather than 7-1, you know, it's just, you know, you're playing against the kid, you know, maybe ease up a little or whatever, right?
So, yeah, that's just overscoring.
And, you know, it's fine. If you're playing competitively, sure, you know, go for all the scores.
But, you know, if you're kind of having a friendly game with a kid, you know, like if you're pretending to box with your kid, you don't deck them, right?
So anyway. So I assume that I'm dealing with parental excuses when I first talk to someone.
Right? And look, your dad grew up in a communist country, your mom grew up in a communist country, a lot of sympathy for that.
I have a lot of sympathy for that.
There was suggestions about who she should marry, but the idea that...
So, sorry, do you know how old your parents were when they married?
Yes, they were 39, I think.
So my mother was 39 and my father was 35, I think.
Right. So, you know, she had been an adult for over 20 years.
She would have dated some other guys.
She would have met some other guys.
So you kind of presented it to me like it was kind of like an arranged marriage or she was in a communist country.
But she'd already spent 20 years not getting married, right?
So she already knew how to say no to any potential marriage option, right?
So... She chose a guy and you say, well, he wasn't a drunk and then he just became a drunk.
That's the most common excuse that women have in this world.
Sorry, go ahead. Can I add something more?
Yeah, please. It's kind of important for your understanding.
So the idea was that this was her second marriage, she was married the first time, I don't really know the circumstances, but it was like someone, she married another alcoholic and she divorced him after six months or something like this, when she discovered he was a little bit like my father.
So she knew how to identify an alcoholic, right?
Yes. So then she married and divorced one alcoholic and then she married another alcoholic, right?
I thought about this and I don't know if she married because she was like desperate.
She was 39 and she didn't have no real man, so I don't know what to say.
Is she responsible for who she married?
Definitely, yes. Okay, good.
Because all I got from you, which I assume I'm getting from her through you, is excuses, right?
Well, he didn't drink that much.
Well, it was kind of like an arranged marriage, blah, blah, blah, right?
Like, she's going to be 100% responsible for who she chooses to marry, right?
No, no. I don't know if my idea is expressed clearly.
I was thinking that the person who presented my father to her did not hide this truth about my father and she didn't know.
So then she's not responsible for marrying an alcoholic because she didn't know?
No, no, she is, but it was her fault that she didn't investigate more on his character.
But it's not 100%.
I wouldn't say she was 100% her responsibility.
And this is based upon your mother telling you this, right?
I mean, do you have independent...
Yes, yes.
Yeah, so you don't have other people who...
So your mother has told you a story that diminishes her responsibility, right?
Yeah, yeah, I could say so, yeah.
And I'm always skeptical when people tell me stories that diminish their responsibility.
I'm just telling you...
I'm not telling you how to be.
I'm just telling you my perspective.
And, you know, I've talked to a lot of people.
I mean, I was talking to people about their lives long before I was a public figure, right?
So whenever somebody says to me, well, this bad thing happened, but here are my excuses.
I don't believe them.
I don't believe them.
And with your mom, you know...
If she was 18 and married off, okay, then that's some real...
But she was 39.
She'd been married before. She knew what to look for.
And also what she would do is she would say, I mean, if it's an Eastern European country, then probably there are a lot of people who drink, particularly, you know, you've got to drink away the depression of growing up in a...
Mind-slaughtering communist environment, so she knows that that's a risk.
She also married a guy who was an alcoholic before, so she would absolutely want to make sure that he wasn't an alcoholic, right?
Now, if he's an alcoholic alcoholic, he can't hide it.
He has to drink, right?
I remember, was it last year when they shut down everything in Ontario, but they left the liquor stores open?
And I was like, come on, what are you crazy, right?
And they're like, no, no, no, they're like...
Tens of thousands of desperate alcoholics.
And if they don't get their alcohol, like, they can die.
They can have delirium tremens.
They can have heart attacks.
They can, you know, they can die from a lack of alcohol.
They've become so addicted to it, right?
So if this guy was an addict to the point where, what, you said he was 35.
So he drank himself to death by the time you were...
He was 40, right? I mean, that's an unbelievably committed...
Alcoholic. And so the idea that she would get to know him, date him, consider marrying him, And not notice the degree of his addiction, which is really extreme.
And I'm very sorry for this, of course, right?
The fact that you did grow up without a dad.
But the idea...
And, you know, you guys in the chat, please, you know, tell me if I'm astray here, right?
Tell me. But, I mean, if you are drinking yourself to death by the time you're 40, I mean, we look at alcoholics who live into their 60s and 70s, and I'm still staggered at how much these people drink.
But the idea that you would drink yourself into pancreatic failure, And then die at the age of 40, that's a huge and savage amount of drinking.
And the idea that your mom just wouldn't have any idea about that when she's 39 years old and has the chance to check him out and all that, I mean, it strikes me as, frankly, impossible to believe.
And I'm not trying to say this like your mom's some terrible person or anything like that.
There's sort of a reason why I'm trying to establish this.
But it's hard for me to believe that she wouldn't notice that he had this massive and very soon fatal alcohol problem.
Oh, are we still on?
I can't hear you if we are.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're on.
I was thinking, I was trying to find her some excuses and I know for sure that in the family there was some pressure for her to Like some social pressure to get to be married, to have a family.
Yes, but she'd spent more than 20 years of her life not being married because she was married once for six months and she'd been an adult at this time for 21 years, right?
So she'd spent two decades not being married and so the idea that she's then really susceptible to this pressure to get married is not the case, right?
Okay. Now, do you know why I'm kind of hammering on this point?
Hopefully in a friendly manner, but...
For me to understand that she's responsible in the choices that she made.
Freedom, like responsibility for her is responsibility for you.
Freedom for her is freedom for you.
In other words, if she was free to not get married or free to get married to somebody who wasn't an alcoholic, the fact that she chose an alcoholic is a bad choice.
She's responsible for that.
Which means you're not responsible for her bad choices.
And you don't owe her Because she made those big mistakes, which cost you even more than they cost her.
The fact that she chose a probably suicidal alcoholic to be your father cost you a lot more than it cost her because it conditioned your entire childhood.
But she was 39 when she met him, so she'd already had her entire life and it didn't condition her entire childhood, if that makes sense.
Okay, I understand. All right.
Now, what steps has she taken over the course of your life to try and establish some community or companionship for herself as she ages?
Well, she was a very sociable person with a nice attitude towards the family and the people around her.
But I don't come from a really good, virtuous family, except on her parents' side.
So that was kind of complicated for her.
So she hasn't remarried, right?
No, no. Is she close to her siblings if she has them?
Yeah, close to her brother and her sister, but they are very old.
So one of her sisters is like around 85 and 84.
And the brother is 75 or 76.
And do you have any siblings?
I don't think so, right? No, I'm a single child.
Right. Have you heard of the phenomenon of the single son husband?
Yeah, I've heard of it.
Tell me what your understanding is of the phenomenon, if you don't mind.
Well, if my understanding is correct, so single mom, they try to create their perfect husband and to their child.
I don't know if it's correct.
Yeah, so what happens is the attachment that you're supposed to have horizontally, you end up having vertically, right?
So the single mother is...
are left by men or leave men and so they can't bond with the men, but they can bond with their son who can't leave.
And so all the frustrated and thwarted pair bonding that goes on, supposed to go on between a husband and a wife, ends up going on between the single mother and her only son.
And what happens is because there's this expectation that you're going to take care of her and be her companion in her old age, she doesn't form those kinds of horizontal attachments like remarrying or having a very great circle of friends, an extended community or something like that because she's got you.
And because she's got you, it kind of stalls her out from trying to develop those horizontal relationships and it puts a huge burden upon you.
And it generally tends to interfere with your capacity to pair bond horizontally.
Because, you know, to get a wife and to be a father, you need to pair bond with someone your own age.
But if you're kind of pair bonded with your mother, then that's something that keeps women away.
Because they don't want to compete.
They know they can't compete. And no woman wants to get into a relationship where your mother runs the show.
Because she needs to know that you're committed to her, because otherwise she's like the third wheel in the relationship with your mom, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, but she doesn't guide my life or she doesn't dictate to me what to do.
She gives motherly advice, don't do this, don't do that, like any mother does to her child, but she doesn't...
Sorry, she doesn't mind.
She doesn't interfere in my life.
She tries, but I don't mind.
I do my thing, in fact.
But why has your thing not been to settle down and get married as yet, if that's what you want?
I wanted to wait, get a good financial situation, and I was...
I'm also in doubt, as I said in my mail, if I should go back to my Eastern European country, or should I choose a woman here?
Right. Now, I mean, so there's so much propaganda that I was going to do a big rant on this, but I'll keep it short because I did a rant already.
But there's a whole lot of propaganda out there in the world designed to make Western women as unappealing as humanly possible to drive depopulation.
And that's, unfortunately, you know, just make them believe in male treachery and patriarchy and that it's really fantastic to enslave themselves to some boss who uses them as a wage slave, but it's really bad to serve their family and their children differently.
Because reasons. Anyway, so yeah, there's been a lot that's been done to make women unlovable.
That they can't bond.
They're suspicious and they're cautious.
They're constantly... Judging whether things are equal and they can't just surrender and commit and be generous and kind and get that reciprocity and they can't just dissolve into bonding and love and they're always guarded and guarding and men are going to prey upon them.
It's just absolutely wretched what has been done to Western women as a whole.
So I completely understand that caution that you have.
But the problem is, I think...
That, look, if you, your mom had you late, right?
So I'll tell you, I mean, I had my daughter late, right?
So I was about the same age as your mom with you when I had my daughter.
So I understand that it's a difficult thing.
So I'm aware that when my daughter is embarking in young adulthood, right?
So let's see, what have we got here?
So 19 years...
Now, let's see. 16 years, I'll be 70.
16 years, she'll be like 23 or whatever, right?
So she's going to want to start embarking upon her life.
And I'm going to be kind of creaky, right?
I'll be 70, which means, you know, there'll be health issues.
There'll be teeth issues. They're just stuff.
Just stuff happens. I always thought I was going to be immune from it because I was just so damn healthy, but it happens, right?
So... When you are an older parent, you really have to either encourage your kids to have kids young, to get married young, or you have to find some way to have some other relationships so that you're not dependent upon your children for your primary relationships.
Because if you are dependent upon your children for your primary relationships, then you're asking that their loyalties be with you rather than with girlfriends.
And the other thing too, like you say that your mom...
Kind of tells you how to live.
And I know you say no to it and all of that.
But of course, your mom has virtually no credibility to tell you how to live because she was nine years older than you and she was marrying an alcoholic who died within five years.
So the idea that she's going to give you a lot of great advice is really not.
And so because you want to help your kids and you think you're older and wiser, and hopefully you are, if your primary contact is with your kids as you age, Then you are inhibiting their growth because you're constantly trying to tell them what to do and guide them and all that, which, you know, if you've been a good parent, they should be guiding themselves by then and you should try to acquire more of an equal kind of relationship and so on, right?
So, yeah, somebody says, I'm 10 years younger than Stefan.
Already, I have grandchildren.
Oh, fantastic. Good for you. Good for you.
If it's any consolation, we tried to have kids as soon as we could, but man, it took a while.
So, Let me ask you this.
Again, it's not a good or bad thing.
I'm just trying to get a sense of the shape of the land.
How often do you have contact with your mother?
In this moment, I do talk a lot with her because she's in a very depressive state, like two hours a day in the afternoon and at 12 a.m.
at my lunch break.
I call her up to know how she's doing because now she's lonely and I feel really bad about her.
So I have... So maybe like two and a half, three hours a day?
Yeah, yeah. I could say, yeah.
And what do you think of that?
Well... It's kind of too much, but I care about her and I don't really like to see her in this day.
And how long has this level of contact been going on?
Well, I need to give you some more details about her life so you can understand better.
So in 2005, she had some health issues and since then the doctors gave her antidepressants and she's on antidepressants since then.
So, that's a detail that I wanted to share with you.
And in the last year, she had a lymphoma.
So, a lymphoma is a form of cancer.
And I think I've started to fear that she will lay and care more about her since last year.
If I can be... Yeah, I think I started last year.
When she had that cancer that I had to help her pass through it.
I don't know if I was clear.
Why was she put on antidepressants for a health issue?
I don't remember exactly.
It was something with the nervous system that she had with the spine.
But you can't cure health issues with antidepressants, is that right?
Yes, I'm going to do a fast Google search to check...
I mean, I think you can...
Antidepressants... Like, if you're depressed about your illness, I suppose the antidepressants are supposed to help, but as far as I understand it, the antidepressants...
I'm no doctor. Antidepressants don't cure particular medical ailments, as far as I can tell.
Sorry to interrupt. She got a treatment, and that treatment gave her depression, and the doctors put her on these antidepressants also.
It was a central nervous system issue.
I don't remember exactly what has happened.
And she's on these pills.
She couldn't stop these pills.
So she's on these pills since 2005.
Wow. All right.
All right. And then came the issue with the cancer that she had last year.
So I think I was lucky because she was visiting me.
To spend the winter period because winter is warmer here.
And I think we were lucky because if we found the cancer here so I could take care of her.
Because if she would have had the cancer back there I think she would be dead by now.
So yeah, since this event I care a lot about her and I would not want to see something happen to her.
That's why maybe I'm a little too scared.
So she came to spend the winter with you.
Can you tell me a bit more about that?
Yeah, so the idea is that I took her in with me I'm so sorry, there's a lot of background noise.
I can't hear you very well. I think someone tried to speak.
So winter in Eastern Europe is around minus 10, minus 20.
So back here, it's around the maximum minus one degree.
So it's more, the winter is more gentle to the bones for old people and old people.
So it's good in In general.
I also didn't want to leave her to spend the Christmas holidays alone.
Sorry, how long did she stay with you over the winter?
The idea was to stay for about two or three months.
And how long did she stay?
Well, as I had to take care of her with the cancer treatments, I think she stayed about To nine months.
Yeah, nine months. Wow. And how long have you been doing the two to three hours a day on the phone with her?
Since that period.
When she went back to the home country in, I think it's September 2020.
Yeah. So for eight or nine months, you've been on the phone with her two to three hours a day?
And has this solved her problems?
No, I think it just helped her a little bit more with the loneliness.
But you could also say that it has prevented her from reaching out within her own local community to find people to spend time with, right?
Because she has you, right, for two to three hours a day, so why would she find some local community resources that she can have sort of face-to-face stuff with and all?
Well, she tried and...
How can I... I don't know how to explain this.
She tried, but as I said, back there I lived in a ghetto, so people back there don't have very intellectual and interesting occupations.
So she doesn't have many connections with people there.
And the people who she has connections with have started now to become older, to have other worries in life and other stuff to do.
I mean, they have their own families.
They have grandchildren.
Some stuff like this.
Some have had health issues.
Has she encouraged you over the past 10 years or so to get married and have kids?
Yes, yes.
I could say yes.
And how often does that topic come up and she encourages you to settle down?
We didn't talk about this lately for a long time.
I think it was me who talked about this with her when I was telling to her about this possibility about the Eastern woman.
And what's interesting is that she tells me that women there are not like I think She kind of pushes me to stay here in a way.
Well, it kind of tells me.
But it's been a while since she's suggested to you the best ways to go about getting...
I mean, she did get married and have a kid, right?
So, I mean, you don't want a partner like she had, but she would have something to say about this, but it doesn't seem like it's a topic that comes up very much.
Not recently, but it It came up a few times.
And she told me that to get married and maybe make a compromise with maybe a low quality woman, just not to be lonely.
So she pushed me because I've rejected a lot of women based on their character.
And she told me that some day in life I should do a compromise and maybe get one of these women and to do whatever I can to not to be alone, what will mostly happen.
Is she aware that as she consumes three hours of your conversation abilities a day, that that's interfering with your ability to meet women?
Like she's got a need to talk to you, but does she know that talking to you for two hours at night and an hour at lunch or whatever is going on, right?
That's interfering with your ability to go out and date, right?
Yes, definitely.
I've never thought about this.
So, shouldn't she stop doing that?
And say, stop talking to your mom and go meet a girl?
Yeah, but as I said, because of her, the loneliness, she...
No, but what about your loneliness?
I guess she's focusing on her own needs and her own loneliness, but what about yours?
Your loneliness is not going to be solved by talking to your mom because she's going to die.
Now, her loneliness can be solved because it doesn't sound like she's done much to prepare herself for her old age.
And fastening on to her son is unbelievably unfair.
I'll just be straight up with you.
You can obviously tell me to get lost and hang up or whatever you want.
I'll be straight with you, man. It's incredibly unfair to fasten on to your son because you haven't created a husband, a community in your own environment.
The fact that she's fastening on to you, which feeds her, but starves you.
Because you can't really get much of a life going.
You can't go out and meet girls if you're hanging on the phone with your depressed mom two hours a night, right?
Yep. So I get how it benefits her.
But if we're only in relationships where we're focusing on what benefits us and not what truly benefits the other person, Then I don't think we're doing a very good job as parents.
Her job as a parent is to make sure that you're happy even at her own expense.
Because she had 40 years worth of choices that she made before you even came along.
So she is infinitely more responsible for her life than you are.
In fact, you're barely responsible for her life because you didn't choose to be in her life and you didn't make those kinds of choices and you haven't made the choices that she made since you were born.
There's a whole choices.
So she, it seems to me, has failed to prepare for her old age.
She married the wrong guy.
She didn't get remarried.
She didn't develop a social circle.
She just calls her son for three hours a day.
Now that is selfish to the point of being vampiric, in my humble opinion, because it's eating up your future at your expense.
And parents have that kind of power.
And I really, really straight up dislike parents who feed their loneliness with their kids at the expense of those kids' future.
That's unfair. It's greedy.
It's selfish. It's destructive.
And I don't have any sympathy.
I don't. I don't have any sympathy.
There's a whole world out there of connections that you can make.
There's, you know, she can talk to you for hours a day.
She can talk to anyone for hours a day.
If she can't find someone locally, she can move.
If she can't find someone in the country, she can talk to people online.
There's lots of things that she can do to build up any kind of even virtual community because it's all she's got with you.
A virtual community, there's lots of things she could do.
But, I mean, if my daughter's 31 and unmarried and calling me three hours a day...
No thanks. No, no, no, no.
You go. You go and date.
You go and have a life.
Don't get swirled up in my cryptkeeper vortex, right?
Don't get swirled up in my aged life.
Go have the life that I took when I was your age.
Because, come on, I mean, look, let's say you meet some Some woman tomorrow, right?
Some woman at work, some woman on the subway, doesn't matter.
You meet some woman, right? And then she says, you go for a date, and she says, oh, what did you do yesterday?
Are you going to say to her, I spent three hours on the phone with my mom?
Yeah, no way.
No, why not? It means you care, doesn't it?
Yeah, but it can be interpreted as mommy issues, and I think I do have a little because I think I care too much about my mother.
Well, see, the moment you phrase it as care too much, you can't change it.
What's wrong with caring too much?
Do I care too much about my daughter or my wife or philosophy?
I don't even know what that means.
Do I care too much about being healthy?
Do I care too much about brushing my teeth?
I don't know. What does it mean, care too much?
The way that that's phrased is doom in a bag.
Because if you care too much, if you're just so big and caring and big-hearted and warm and empathetic, why would you want to fix that?
That's not something you can fix.
So maybe that's not the right way to put it.
Maybe it is. I have my doubts.
But maybe that's not the right way to put it.
Maybe that's not an accurate way to put it.
I was thinking about when I'm gonna go there in the summer to do my renovations that I want to do to the house to build her a nice house and so she has a good living conditions and then I could do more with my life get back on track with my life.
You mean so after this summer after you go and build her house or fix her house then you can have a life?
Well, this is the way that I've thought about this and I think it's the most reasonable way because, as I said, I care about her and I want her to have a good life also.
Okay, so tell me what you love about her.
What are her virtues that you love?
She was a very religious woman.
She was mostly...
She was kind, caring.
Mostly... I don't know how to say this.
She was mostly authentic.
But sometimes she kind of taught me how to lie.
And good caring.
She took care of me, so I... Want to pay her back for this?
No, no, sorry. No, no, no.
That's not what kids do. No, kids don't owe their parents taking care of them in their old age.
They don't. Because the parents chose to have the children.
The children did not choose to have the parents.
Right? The children did not choose to...
That doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't.
I mean, if you want to, perfectly fine.
But it's not a moral obligation.
Right? I mean, it's not a moral obligation.
Because your mother chose to have you...
And you also grew up without a dad, which meant that you didn't have a masculine influence, and you need a masculine influence in your life to stand between you and your mother's needs.
Because when you're the single child of a single mother, your mother's needs are a gravity well you simply cannot fight if you don't have a masculine presence to stand between you and the black hole of your mother's needs.
And this is true no matter how virtuous your mother, this is true no matter how wonderful your mother is, if you don't have A father to stand between you and your mother's needs, you're going to get sucked in.
And you're going to end up serving her.
Does the presence of my uncles count?
No. It has to be in the family.
And the reason I know it doesn't matter is that she didn't go and stay with your uncles, and your uncles aren't going to fix her house, right?
Right? So if she was married, it would be her husband who was taking care of this stuff.
And let's say her husband was too old to take care of fixing the house and the husband would hire a handyman to fix the house and this kind of stuff, right?
So there is no masculine presence to stand between you and your mother's needs.
And I think that's why you're calling me, but that's what I'm sort of trying to do here, right?
Establish that he has responsibility.
Establish that you do not owe her in an existential manner because she chose to have a kid.
And also, she chose a father who destroyed himself before you were barely a toddler.
And that's a bad decision.
It's a terrible thing to do. It's a terrible decision.
And she also is not restraining her own greed for your time, attention, and company.
But she is devouring your time and your life.
And that is not...
Look, it's one thing if you have a wife and you have kids...
And then maybe she can come and help out with the kids and help with the cooking.
I don't know. Help with the household.
There's things that you can do where your mom is a great addition to your life.
And I'm a big fan. If you've got great grandparents or good grandparents, I'm a big fan of them being in the kids' life.
Statistically, it's very good for the kids.
So if your life has already started and is underway and she can come and help out with your life, And you put her up and you take care of her and she takes care of you and there's a mutual exchange of value and your life is already underway.
That's one thing, man.
But she's sucking you dry at the moment and your life isn't starting.
That's not right. That's not right at all.
She should be sitting there saying, what is the best thing for my son?
Not what do I want, what do I need as an old lonely woman.
What is the best thing for my son?
And I don't know where she's processing that.
Because it's not good for you to be on the phone with a depressed old woman for three hours a day.
That makes you about as charismatic as a soap dish.
It makes you about as energetic and romance-oriented as a teddy bear.
She should be focused solely on making sure you're settled and that you have everything you need to have a great life before she ages out and dies.
That should be her sole focus.
And right now, that's not her sole focus.
Her sole focus is trying to fill the loneliness of her own bad decisions, which you have nothing to do with, by consuming your life and your possibilities, in my opinion.
Again, if you were saying, like, you know, oh my God, I've got, you know, I've got three kids, my wife's overwhelmed, my mother is really offering to come and help out, and I'd be like, yeah, fantastic, right?
Then she's helping you facilitate the progress of your life.
But she's standing between you and a wife.
She's standing between you and being a father.
Because she has her needs, and she's just greedily using up your life to backfill her own mistakes.
That's not what parents are supposed to do.
Parents are supposed to focus on what is absolutely best for the child.
And what she should be doing is saying, oh my God, yeah, I love talking with my son, but it's not helping him get ahead.
I need to develop my own context.
I need to recognize that it's not my son's fault that I married the wrong guy.
It's not my son's fault that I never got remarried.
It's not my son's fault that I didn't create a good social circle in my environment.
It's not my son's fault.
I can't fill in the holes of my own bad decisions with my son's future.
Because you don't sound happy to me.
And I think it's partly because it's a lot easier to focus on your mom's needs than it is to withdraw from that and focus on your own needs.
And that's the lack of quality parenting that I see in my humble opinion.
Is that she's created a situation where it's almost unthinkable for you to focus on your own life rather than what your mother needs.
And it's like, yeah, she's old.
Yeah, she's unwell. Guess what?
We know we get old and unwell.
We know we get old and unwell.
So we got a plan for that.
We got a plan to have good contacts.
We got a plan to stay married.
We got a plan to choose the right people to be in our lives.
We got a plan to have a social circle because we're going to get old.
What's not a plan is to fasten on to your son and consume his future.
That's not a plan. That's not a good plan.
That's not a fair plan.
And the idea that, well, you know, I'll just wait another couple of years and there'll always be something else.
There'll always be something she needs.
She's going to be unhappy. She's going to be needing you.
That's always going to be the case.
And she has a big giant lever called get resources from my son.
every time she pulls it you're going to show up because you've told yourself it's a virtue why is it a virtue your life hasn't started I mean, professionally, you're doing okay.
When was the last time you had a relationship with a woman?
I don't mean like a date, like a relationship, relationship.
A relationship, I think it's 2019, yeah.
How long did that last for and what happened?
- Joe, can you hear me? - Yes.
How long did that relationship last and what happened at the end?
Well, it lasted a few months because the girl that I was dating, I started to find that she was consuming substances and other stuff.
Oh, so she was an addict like your dad?
A little to alcohol and she was starting to take, she was taking the coke.
I discovered that she was taking coke and she had a bad entourage.
Yeah, you understand?
I hope. So if there's one thing that your mother should have taught you, it's how to recognize an addict, right?
Because your mom knows that.
She married two of them, right?
Yeah, she told me about this.
And I also discussed this part about my relationships with her because I saw that keeps her alive.
She feels like a part of my life.
I don't know if I'm...
Well, it's called living vicariously, living through somebody else's life.
Now, what about before 2019, a relationship before that?
Well, the most significant ones, I had this one girl, I was with her about one year and a half, but she was older and I've sensed that I wasn't very knowledgeable back then, so I sensed that she was with me because she wanted someone stable and a good guy, a nice guy.
Sorry, how old were you and how old was she when you met?
I was 27 and she was nine years older than me.
She was 36, soon 36.
And what did your mother say about this?
Well, to sum it up three, if she's a good girl, why not?
But that's terrible advice.
Absolutely terrible advice. Does she know you want kids?
Yes, yes, yes. So what the fuck would she be doing telling you at the age of 27 to get involved with a 36-year-old woman if you want kids?
What am I missing here? Would you say that to your own son?
Oh, I really want kids, so I'm going to start dating a woman who's 36, just to see if maybe it works out.
What sense does that make?
She's close to the end of her runway, and especially if you want, let's say, you want two or three kids, not going to happen if the woman's 36.
It's not going to happen, functionally.
Unless you get married three months after meeting, right?
So what the hell is she telling you?
give it a shot.
If she knows you want a couple of kids and this woman is nine years older than you and you're in your late 20s.
Yeah, you're right.
I thought, yeah, her advice was mostly like, if she's a good person, I'm trying to sum it up.
If she's a good person, then why not?
The good people are hard to find.
I think that's the major idea.
Okay, your mom is not stupid, right?
Yes. So she knows that there's a fertility drop-off in the mid to late 30s, right?
For a woman. Yeah, yeah.
She knows you want kids.
How much time, attention and energy is she putting into really focusing on helping you get what you want in life?
What happened at the end of this relationship?
You went out for a year and a half, so she was 37 and a half when you broke up or something like that, maybe 38 or whatever, right?
And why did it end?
Because I didn't want it to be with Ra.
I wanted to try something else.
Well, that's not much of an answer.
Why did it end in particular?
You liked her enough to go out for a year and a half.
What happened at the end? Well, I felt that it's time to take a decision.
And the decision was that I wasn't feeling that this is the person that I want to spend my life with.
So, you were pretty bad for her, right?
Yes. Because you took maybe the last two years of her fertility window and didn't give her kids, right?
Yeah. I'm totally responsible about this.
I'm sorry, say again? Yeah, I feel really responsible for this, yeah.
Did your mom ever express any concerns about that?
Like, if you're not going to commit to the girl and she wants to have kids, you've got to do the honorable thing and break up with her because she's running out of eggs, right?
Well, when I was talking about this with her, she was telling that maybe I should have a second thought and stay with her, even though I did not want to do this.
No, but in the year and a half that you were dating her, did your mother call you to say, okay, where are you in terms of commitment?
because, you know, this woman's getting older and if you want to have kids, you've got to make that decision right now.
Yeah, no.
Well, you didn't talk about this, no?
So tell me more about these wonderful qualities of your mother that you love.
Because she's willing to burn up this woman's chance of having a family.
I don't know why. I don't know why she wouldn't think about that or why she wouldn't care about it.
She herself was an older mom.
She knows how difficult it can be.
Why wouldn't she have any compassion or empathy for this woman that you may have taken her family from her by not committing to her after a year and a half when she's in her late 30s?
Yes.
You said she's caring and thoughtful, right?
I don't see it. This is obvious stuff.
This isn't knowing Kierkegaard in the original.
This is obvious stuff. You do not dick around with a woman in her late 30s.
You do not do that.
Even mid-30s.
You do not do that.
And you and your mom were both like, yeah, let's just keep cruising along.
Let's see how it goes. She's a nice person, nice people to rear.
Did she express any regret like when you broke up with her?
Like, oh, she said, oh, maybe you should stay with her or whatever, right?
But wasn't she like, this is something you should check all the way along, right?
Knowing that the time is ticking for this woman, right?
Clock is ticking. Well, the only advice that she gave me was that I shouldn't break up in an awful manner that I did with her and should have kept contact just to be friends.
This is the only advice.
I know it's all stupid. Wait, your mother said that you should stay friends with your ex?
Yeah, yeah. Did she stay friends with her first husband?
No. No, you're right.
What the fuck is she talking about?
And what was so bad about the breakup?
Well, as you said, this girl that I dated, she didn't react to...
When I broke up with her, she didn't react to that, let's say, mature.
About this. And listening to you, now I realize that she was a little justified.
Well, she was justified to be...
Wait, did you... Hang on.
So when you were dating with her, were you dating her with some sort of goal of getting married and starting a family?
No. No, I just wanted to have a girlfriend and I was dating her.
And did she say that she might want to get married and have a family?
No, no.
She never said that? Not that I recall right now.
When you broke up with her, was she upset in part because she might want to get married and have a family?
I don't know.
Why was she so angry?
You said it was something to do with the fact that she wanted to get married and have a family, so I'm a little confused now.
You said now you understand why she was mad when you broke up with her, but that didn't come up when you broke up with her.
I think it was more of a resentment because I didn't want to continue with her, to continue to date her, to stay with her.
Thank you.
And was there anything in particular why you didn't want to continue with her?
Well, it was the age gap and I wanted to experience more.
Well, the age gap you knew about from the beginning, so that's not a good reason.
What do you mean you wanted to experience more?
The other girls.
Well, okay, but what changed?
because you went into a committed relationship with her, knowing the age gap and knowing that it was going to be monogamous.
So what changed that you broke up with her?
As I said, I didn't feel that she was the girl for me and I also wanted to experience her.
That doesn't mean anything, right?
I mean, why was she not the girl?
She was the girl for you for a year and a half and then she wasn't, so what changed?
I'm not saying it was a bad idea to break up with her.
I have no idea, right? Something changes, right?
If you're with someone and then you don't want to be with them, something has changed.
Did you meet another girl you liked more?
Did she start pressuring you for marriage?
What changed? As I said, I wanted to meet other girls and explore my possibilities.
And also I wanted to...
It started to get serious, more serious.
And then I wanted to see...
For me, it was not okay.
I wanted to see other girls.
So, wait, you mean she was starting to talk about marriage or some sort of commitment?
Yes, some sort of...
Yeah, to deepen our relationship.
She was thinking about presenting me to her parents.
Ah, so the moment a commitment came along, you bolted.
A long-term commitment, because when I was with her, I was in a commitment.
Well, yeah, of course, a long-term commitment.
I mean, if she wants to have kids, you need a long-term commitment, because kids take 20 years to raise, right?
Of course you need that long-term commitment, right?
So the moment that she wanted a commitment from you, you dumped her?
Unfortunately, yes.
Well, it's not an unfortunate thing.
That's a choice you made, right?
Did you talk over dumping the woman with your mom before you did it?
Yeah, I talked with her about this.
And what did your mom say? I don't remember a lot.
Well, did she think it was a good or bad idea for you to dump this woman the moment that she wanted an actual commitment, which after a year and a half is not...
Not unreasonable, totally reasonable after six months, in fact, when the first date I went on with my wife, she's like, hey, you know, I'm interested in a long-term committed relationship.
And if you're not, you know, keep walking.
I think she was mostly on the bad side, that I'm doing a bad decision.
Sorry, she was mostly on the bad side?
I don't know what that means. She thought that I'm taking a bad decision.
Oh, that you should stay with the girl?
Yes. So if you care about your mother and she's telling you with her experience and her wisdom and her caring and her knowledge that you're making a bad decision, I'm not saying you have to do everything that your mom said, but I assume that that had a lot of weight for you, you, right?
Like that, that that really meant something to you.
And that probably put the brakes on you wanting to break up, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I got hurt a little about this.
But as I said, I was very...
How can I say this?
I wasn't very thoughtful. I was thinking mostly.
I was mostly selfish and thinking about me and experiencing with other women.
And that's my exact point, my friend.
Can you see that pattern? I'm talking about your mom being selfish and using you and then you were selfish and used this woman.
Do you see where you're getting it from and the influence it has over your life?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
All right.
So I'm out of things to say because I'm the only one who seems to care about your life.
Like you're just kind of bumping along in this conversation like a helium balloon I'm dragging along behind me.
So I don't know that you want to change anything.
I don't know that you're interested in any particular kind of feedback.
And I'm not trying to be mad.
I'm just telling you my sort of experience that I think I've got enough illumination, but you don't seem particularly interested in the conversation.
So I certainly don't want to inflict any philosophy on it.
On you, so I'm not really sure what to say from here.
No, no, no. I'm very interested.
It's just that you make me think about these things in another manner.
So I'm thinking my time to think about it.
That's why I called you.
I wanted to have your opinion and to give you the details.
And also I wanted to...
Yeah, it's mostly...
I think it's mostly a combination of philosophy.
Should I take care of my mother?
And what is the level of sacrifice that I have to take?
And next, maybe I should go back to my Eastern European country for the wife question, as I said in my mail.
Well, but... Tell me the virtues that you have, tell me the virtues that you possess that would be very attractive to a very high-quality woman, a very good woman, a very competent woman, a very moral woman, a very strong woman.
What are the qualities that you would bring to the table that she would just want to have you for the rest of time?
I'm loyal, I'm hardworking, authentic, I... Most of the time, let's say 95% of the time, I'm honest.
What did you mean earlier when you said your mom taught you how to lie?
Well, when I was seeing her telling some small lies and stuff like this, I was asking her why is she telling these lies?
Isn't she being truthful?
And she said that sometimes we need to lie to protect ourselves.
Or be more diplomatic.
Okay. So, hardworking.
You said loyal.
But loyal is a very neutral term, right?
You can be loyal to an evil criminal gang.
Like, loyal doesn't, you know, doesn't mean anything other than consistency in a relationship, which could be bad or good.
Hardworking? Well, you know, I guess that's useful, and you have resources and all of that.
You said 95% of the time you tell the truth.
But here's the thing, that your unconscious, your lack of self-knowledge is fairly robust, and therefore it's hard to even know Whether you're telling the truth, because I'm not sure that you know, because you're not skeptical enough, right?
So you're like, oh, my mother's got all these great qualities.
And it's like, well, you know, when we start digging in, I don't really see them.
And you were saying that, you know, your mom is kind of like a victim in this relationship with your dad who drank himself to death when he was 40.
And you don't really have any confirmation of that, just what your mom said, and you're kind of swallowed up by your mom's excuses for her own life.
And so I'm not saying that you're lying, but as far as telling the truth goes, telling the truth requires a lot of introspection and a lot of skepticism about what people tell you.
I mean, if I took everything that you said at face value, our conversation wouldn't have gone anywhere.
In fact, you're only getting value out of this conversation with me because I'm radically skeptical about what people say.
Not because I think you're lying, but just because self-knowledge is a hard thing to achieve.
And you're a young man and relatively young man and all that, right?
So as far as you blithely saying, well, I mostly tell the truth, you don't know.
You don't know that. You've got to have the humility to know that there's a lot about your life you're not aware of yet.
There's a lot about you. You grew up with, it seems to me, a pretty devouring single mother and a father who drank himself to death, which is incredibly traumatic for the entire system and situation, and then a mom who kind of glommed onto you and is...
Participating in you kind of half-wrecking women's lives and so on, right?
So as far as you say, well, 95% of the time I tell the truth, I would invite you to a space of humility.
I invite everyone to a space of humility.
Like, how do you know? How do you know what the truth is?
That's an epistemological question.
How do you know what the truth is about your mom's history?
You don't know. How do you know how much your mom is responsible for who she chose?
Will you just give me a bunch of glib answers, which I understand.
You know, it's what you've been told and what you've accepted or what you've had to accept to maintain this relationship.
But you don't know.
You don't even seem to know why you broke up with this girl.
So as far as you say, well, 95% of the time I tell the truth, I would invite you to be more skeptical of that because only through skepticism do we ever even get remotely close.
To the truth. So if you peg yourself at 95%, when a lot of what you've told me, not because you're lying to me, but just because you don't know enough, is not particularly true or clear or honest, I'll give you the hard-working.
Not necessarily in this conversation, but I'll give you the hard-working.
What else? So you've got loyal, which is kind of neutral.
You've got, I tell the truth most of the time, which is a statement of vanity more than accuracy.
I'll give you hard-working. What else have you got?
I consider myself Pretty empathetic.
And even we are talking about that girl that I broke up with, the older one.
I felt bad, really bad about what I have done.
And I've thought about this.
I thought that you didn't really make the connection with the childbearing stuff until you were talking to me.
The childbearing?
Yeah, that you kind of burned up her remaining childbearing years, but I don't think you made that connection until you and I were talking, right?
As you say, I know that women take relationships seriously, more seriously than as men, and I kind of took it, okay, I have a relationship, I'm in a commitment.
I have a girlfriend. I can have fun.
It's okay. I took it more like this.
So when I broke up with her, I realized that I kind of did some damage on her.
Okay. So you're putting yourself up as empathetic.
What else have you got? I consider myself kind.
And caring.
And how would that be defined in your life?
Because, you know, there's caring for others and then there's caring for yourself.
You know, again, I understand how you being on the phone three hours a day and putting your mom up for nine months is beneficial to her and all of that.
The phone thing in particular, do you have self-care?
Do you sort of care for yourself?
Do you make sure that your needs are met in relationships?
Yes, most of the time, yes.
Well, listen, it sounds like you've got a lot to offer a woman, and I don't have anything else other than to wish you the very best of luck going forward.
It sounds like you've got it going on, and I'm sure, you know, if these things all turn out to be true, I have some doubts, but, you know, I've already expressed those, right?
If these things all turn out to be true, then, I mean, you'll have to beat off great women with a stick, right?
I'm not saying that I'm perfect.
I can screw up.
I don't consider myself as the perfect man.
No, but if you have these qualities, that you're caring and empathetic and hardworking and loyal and so on, then wherever you go, you will find quality women.
It is, of course, a little bit of a mystery as to why quality women haven't snapped you up yet.
You understand you're 31 years old, which means you've been an adult.
For 13 years, right?
So it is a little bit of a mystery if you do possess all of these qualities, why?
A good woman hasn't set her sights on you and snapped you up yet.
Why you've been with women who put up with being dragged along the last fertility window for a year and a half, and why you're with a woman who's an alcoholic and a cocaine addict.
It is, of course, a little bit of a mystery.
But if it's only a mystery for me, but not a mystery for you, then it doesn't really matter, right?
So if you have these great qualities, then there is that question of why, as an adult, you haven't I've been snapped up by a good woman, but, you know, I guess that's going to remain one of life's sweet mysteries because you seem that,
you know, I've sort of tried to put out the question whether or not you spending three hours a day on the phone with your mom is actually caring for her or for you, but clearly that hasn't landed because you still think you're a caring and empathetic person, person and i've sort of pointed out that your mom is exploiting the deference that you have for her needs which i think she's overused
but you still re-characterize that as you being a caring and kind person so it could be of course that i'm entirely incorrect and that you have all of these great qualities and that my assessment of these great qualities so or so my questions about of these great qualities is incorrect, right?
That I've missed the mark and I have not assessed things correctly.
Perfectly possible.
As you say, none of us is perfect.
So yeah, I really appreciate the call.
I certainly can't tell you where to go to get a great woman because, again, if you have all these qualities, a great woman will find you no matter what.
But yeah, I really do appreciate everyone's time.
Thank you so much for the caller, and thank you so much to everyone for dropping by.
I know we had a couple of tech issues, but we'll certainly find a way to...
They seem to have settled down, so maybe the tech curses that occasionally land and cluster around the show are taking a mild hiatus.
And yeah, thanks everyone so much.
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Thanks, everyone, for a great evening and a great pleasure, as always, to chat with you all.
Thank you very much. Have a great night.
I will talk to you guys soon.
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