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April 30, 2021 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
34:35
HOW TO NOT BE CONTROLLED!
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Hi everybody, Stefan Molyneux from Freedom Aid.
I'm here with Colin Pape.
Now, I've been watching these guys for a while.
They contacted me and if you've ever had, and I think it's fairly logical to have, a couple of questions about the objectivity of search engines.
If you ever want to question the objectivity of search engines, you can search for one Stefan Molyneux, say, on Google, and the gateway to hell opens, basically.
There's just like a cryptkeeper there, there are flames in the background, and you're lured to some place where you drink Kool-Aid and your head explodes from whatever, right?
So, I've been sort of exploring and very interested in alternative search engines, and I've looked at the others, you know, sort of DuckDuckGo and other places, but, so, I think you guys have a differentiator.
Now, full disclosure, I have no investment, no contact with, no interest in, not getting paid for any of this stuff.
I just, I really like to highlight cool technology, and anything to me that is kind of on the blockchain-y side of things, I'm massively interested in at the moment.
So, Colin, thanks for taking the time today, and let's start it off with the fabled elevator pitch.
You know, like, we're trapped in an elevator.
I have a zillion dollars, and what's the story with the company?
Thanks, Stefan. Appreciate the opportunity.
So PreSearch is a decentralized search engine.
We have a cryptocurrency token called the PreToken.
That's kind of the heart of the ecosystem.
We reward people in PreSearch tokens for switching to PreSearch.
So as you search, you earn PreTokens.
And then our infrastructure to make things more, you know, censorship resistant and resilient.
It's built on a platform of user nodes so people can install software on their computer and then that helps us to get the information that we provide to searchers.
And so those people get rewarded in pre-search tokens as well.
And then kind of to close the loop on the ecosystem because so far we've just been giving tokens to create the demand for them.
We built out an advertising platform that uses something called keyword staking.
So normally with Google, it's super expensive if you want to use their advertising platform.
You bid on a keyword, your ad shows up, they kind of throw you into an auction environment.
Basically extract the maximum that you could possibly pay for that term.
And then every time somebody clicks on it, you're paying that amount.
With the keyword staking platform, it uses this concept called staking, where you're not actually spending your tokens.
You're just kind of locking them to a term.
So if I wanted to stake against the term decentralization, I would type decentralization.
I would say, hey, I want to Stake, you know, 10,000 pre-search tokens.
And if nobody is staking more than me, then my ad will show up.
And then whenever somebody clicks on the ad, the traffic is actually free.
There's no cost. So it's a model that, you know, aligns all the interests of the ecosystem.
And it's founded by libertarians.
So it's a little bit more neutral.
Already has my interest. Okay, so...
Normally, Colin and I would interface using an RS-232 cable to have the geek talk here.
For those of you who don't know, I started coding when I was 11 years old, bought my first computer, and I co-founded and was the chief technical officer of a software company, had R&D code and all that kind of stuff.
So I've got some fairly flying fingers when it comes to coding.
And one thing that's always kind of baffled me, Colin, is search engines.
I mean, look... I get the complicated nature of bidding for keywords and serving up ads and all that kind of stuff, but I'm thinking, and this is my naivete, so obviously correct me where I'm astray, but my thinking is here's the PowerPoint for a search engine company.
Number one, index stuff.
Number two, Show it when asked.
I'm sure it's way more complicated than that, but can you step me through the ecosystem of what it means to scrape and store and allow for neutral searches?
Yeah, it's actually super complicated and challenging, which is really why there's basically kind of two actual real at-scale search engines in the world.
You've got Google and you've got Bing.
The amount of data that is required to kind of have what they call the long tail of search covered, which is the billions and billions of web pages and the obscure search terms and The new combinations of search terms.
That is really where the challenge lies.
There's kind of head queries, like the top 100,000 queries.
That is, you know, a lot easier because there's, you know, 100,000 to a couple hundred thousand of them.
But when you're talking, you know, tens of billions or hundreds of billions of potential queries, And then all different languages and all the other things.
And then people trying to game the system.
There's actually a lot really involved that happens behind the scenes.
And so yeah, basically the way a search engine generally works.
I mean, those seem to me issues, and again, I can feel my hair getting what's left of it getting more pointy, Dilbert style.
Isn't that a matter of scale rather than complexity?
In other words, you need a whack ton of storage, you need a whack ton of bandwidth, and you need a whack ton of processors to process all of this stuff.
But isn't it more scale than complexity?
Again, I'm sure it's not, but tell me where that's wrong.
Yeah, it's both.
But the complexity, I mean, even just being able to crawl all the different websites and then have webmasters not block you, for instance, that alone is a massive challenge.
Because you're basically consuming the server resources and you basically need to ensure that your queries to scrape that information are throttled so that you're not overwhelming servers.
You've got to basically detect all the different capabilities of servers and what they can support.
There's an entire just broad number of You know, challenges that might seem trivial, but are actually very complicated.
And really what we're doing, we're basically running a meta search engine where we are using existing resources so that we can handle the long tail.
And then we're building a community curated index for basically head queries or queries where we identify that there are challenges with Censorship or bias or agendas that are coming through so that we can undo basically things like your name, for instance. Honestly, it's a travesty what is being done.
And so, you know, that would be something where, yeah, the community should be able to step in and say, hey, that's BS or, you know, that's a clear agenda and basically override it.
And that's basically the model that we're taking.
So we're not even trying at this point to solve the long tail.
We're leveraging existing resources for that.
It would cost, you know, billions of dollars.
I think Bing spent about $5 billion to build out their long tail index.
Right, right. So what's your propeller head background for this kind of stuff and sort of what drew you into the space to begin with?
Yeah, so I've been developing, you know, websites and web apps since kind of the late 90s when I was a teenager.
Ended up building out another company called ShopCity.com that's kind of a platform to enable local communities to build their own Amazon.com powered by local businesses.
So it's a marketplace and a directory.
Each community gets its own shop domain name.
So ShopNewYork.com, ShopBoston.com, that kind of thing.
And in 2011, we woke up one morning in the middle of July, and all of a sudden, all of our Google traffic basically was gone.
And we started trying to figure out what was happening.
We were looking for our sites even by brand.
So, you know, shopmidland.com, let's say.
We ended up finding it on page eight of the Google results.
Realized basically that they had assessed some type of penalty against us.
Ended up getting into this whole thing with them.
There was an FTC investigation that was ongoing that we participated in.
And through kind of, you know, what happened with us, we were able to get them to admit that they had assessed a manual penalty.
So there was somebody who actually went in there It was not algorithmic.
It was, you know, some person that said, yes, those sites are being blocked.
At the time, that wasn't really admitted.
They had basically said that everything was algorithmic.
And we were able to get a resolution with Google.
And then they ended up building out the manual penalty resolution center within Google Webmaster Tools.
But it really just opened up my eyes to the amount of control that Google has of information on the Internet.
And I just started thinking that there had to be a way to, you know, really enable all these alternative search engines to have more of a presence.
So came up with the concept for pre-search, kind of thought of it as like the Switzerland of search.
So wouldn't just be us having a search engine, it would be a way through a search field that you could easily access, you know, the multitude of search engines that are out there.
And so that was kind of how the concept was born.
And then in 2017, we realized that we could kind of catalyze it with an Ethereum token.
And so that's what we did.
And did you ever figure out why somebody hit the checkmark on your website to Google?
Well, it was interesting.
And this is where, you know, it goes beyond just, you know, technical considerations, which I think is maybe the only legitimate thing that Google might have.
They basically said that they didn't like our business model and that they thought that we should run it on one domain, not like all these different domains.
And that was what really, you know, at that point I thought, wow, they are actually making...
Judgments around business models and go to market strategies.
And that to me is kind of outside of the purview of, you know, technological algorithms.
Oh, sorry. Was it something like they may have thought that you were trying to game their system by having multiple websites rather than everything under one website?
Well, that was kind of, you know, potentially the angle that they had given us.
But what was really interesting is that right when it happened, you know, about a year before, we ended up partnering with, so Google's in Mountain View, California.
My business partner Jim is in Silicon Valley.
We ended up hiring a guy named Dan who joined the Mountain View Chamber of Commerce to try to, you know, get shopmountainview.com out into Silicon Valley.
The local newspaper ended up seeing it, writing a story about how the Chamber was partnering with us to run a Shop Mountain View campaign.
Then it turned out that the newspaper publisher was also running a Shop Mountain View campaign, as was the city government.
So this is in kind of the context of 2008, and people are trying to recover from that recession.
And all these places are doing shop local campaigns.
And so we ended up partnering with them, the city government, the Chamber of Commerce, the local newspaper publisher.
Which was basically the model.
We had been partnering with city governments.
So earlier in 2011, Google launches this Get Your City Online campaign to basically do something very similar.
And they were also a member of the Mountain View Chamber of Commerce, so they were definitely aware of us.
And all of a sudden, you know, all of our sites get blocked.
And so we're thinking, okay, is that potentially what it is?
There was no interlinking really between the sites, which is what you would normally do if you were trying to game the system.
And we had basically, you know, put in, in addition to, you know, kind of not having things linked, we put into our robots.txt file some other code that would basically Absolutely prevent that from being the perception.
So to us, there was really no justification, but that was kind of, you know, the angle that they took.
I mean, it's a real challenge, right?
I mean, you know this probably better than anyone, but everybody wants freedom until it produces the results they don't like.
And then it's like, well, you know, that freedom thing, you know, it was a nice experiment, but I'm afraid it's not producing the radical egalitarianism That we want, and therefore freedom bad, hate speech, deplatforming, and all that kind of stuff.
And this is, of course, the big problem with search engines.
It's the media as a whole, sort of two big problems.
Number one, of course, is that fear sells, and therefore terrifying the population on a regular basis, you know, puts cattle prods into the amygdala, brings people to the sites.
And so fear porn is like the ultimate degrading of Western civilization, because we're in a constant state of anxiety.
And shock, and appalling, and this happens on the left and the right, and we just, we click because, oh no, tiger in the backyard, bring the children in, hide in the basement, and you just make a huge amount of money.
And you can't make much money by not terrifying people.
You make a huge amount of money terrifying people.
That's sort of the one side. And the other side, of course, is that any time you have an open architecture for something like searches, It's going to, your income is going to aggregate around, you know, you're going to make 80% of your money from 20% of your customers.
Now, those customers are going to have hotlines, right?
They're going to have account managers, they're going to have straight up pipelines into the powers that be, and everyone else is like, I guess I could call a lawyer and, you know, like it just becomes really messy and It's hard to say if it's a feature, it's a bug, it's an inevitability.
And so when you've got someplace like Google, and I remember back in, gosh, I'm trying to remember what year it was, but it was really early on, like 2007 or something like that.
I was doing a lot of work with Google on ads and stuff like that.
I do remember being a little blindsided by, you know, back then it's like, what, seven bucks a click?
Are you kidding me? It's a lot, right?
And I ended up going to other places where it was like a dime a click and actually got much better results.
But When you are charging people, the concentration of your income is just going to manifest itself, and it probably is down to 70% of your income coming from 5% of your customers, and those people are going to have a lot of sway.
And you are inevitably going to start to model what you do according to where the highest income is.
And in the media, that's fear and anxiety and terror and danger.
And in search engines, it is those who have the most profit, have the most money to spend, and frankly, In-house legal departments don't hurt when it comes to dealing with social media companies because then you've got lawyers you're paying anyway.
They might as well do something. And so going after these guys for discriminatory practices could be one way that you fill up your in-house legal counsel's time.
And so going to the big companies, acceding to their requests and their preferences, sometimes at the expense of small companies, it's almost just baked into the entire equation.
And I guess my question after a long, windy diatribe is, what are you guys doing about that?
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
And, you know, the thing that really we discovered on top of just Google having massive market power was just how many people had basically been, you know, blacklisted.
You know, it was just, you know, it was It was sad, honestly, discovering thousands and thousands of small businesses that had been blacklisted for whatever reason, oftentimes not really any fault of their own, businesses that had gone under or that had to lay everybody off.
You know, throughout kind of the history of Google, they've had all these, you know, algorithm updates, you know, Panda, Penguin, all these, you know, animal named updates where all of a sudden they're rejigging their index and then everything changes and then the people who kind of built their businesses or their, you know, access to The consumer through that channel all of a sudden gets completely disrupted.
And so, you know, we saw that this had been happening to all these people.
And really, the thing that was bizarre was just exactly what you said.
You know, there was nobody to contact.
There was no way to get through to somebody.
It was all just kind of a firewall around it.
And, you know, silence.
And, I mean, they are a little bit more accessible now because they do actually have account managers.
At the time, it was all just fully automated and, you know, just an online bidding system.
And so you were, you know, literally a number.
And so when we set out to build PreSearch, really, the key is that, you know, we've got this Telegram community.
So it's t.me slash PreSearch is how you get there on a web browser, but it's in the Telegram app.
And we've just got like a really kind of open, dynamic community where we're very accessible.
And, you know, everybody makes mistakes.
It's just, you know, an inevitability when you're, you know, doing anything technical or doing anything at scale.
You know, some things are going to happen.
And so for us, kind of that, you know, fail-safe mechanism where it doesn't ever get to that point of, you know, that we reach with Google is that, Somebody can go onto Telegram, they can chat in there, and they're basically, you know, one degree of separation from the people who have founded the project and are actively working on it.
I mean, I'm in there all the time.
Our CTO, Trey, is in there all the time.
We've got, you know, administrators that are in there 24-7.
And, you know, basically, if there's ever something that, you know, we screw up...
We hear about it and then, oh gosh, so sorry.
And then we figure out. And so it's really kind of grassroots, ground up, community oriented.
And, you know, we value people.
We're not coming at this from the same perspective that a lot of these technologists come at it from, where they try to just have this technological top-down solution where everything is fully automated.
We really are trying to be more of a human search engine where we're taking into account the unintended consequences of things and trying to make sure that we're able to work with people to resolve any issues.
So I think that's one of the key ways that we're different.
Well, and this sort of brings me to my most fundamental question, which is, how can you be turned to evil?
And the reason I say that, of course, is that, you know, it'd be nice if you were very successful, and, you know, there's almost nothing more dangerous on the Internet as a whole as unexpected success.
You know, we're always told, work hard, you can be successful, you can make it big, and then, you know, every a-hole on the planet is going to come in you with a laser sword and attempt to serve up your nads in some Chinese restaurant.
So, If you guys do hit it big, and the search engine is growing, and I do want to get some numbers from you, but if you guys do hit it big, what is the firewall against, oh man, these guys are big and influential?
We've got to get some leftists in there, man.
We've got to come in through that portal called the HR department, and we're just going to find ways to suppress hate speech and make sure that crazy conspiracy theories don't float to the top and just start that magic...
Mushroom journey of truthiness that seems to characterize information delivery systems now.
Yep, yep. It's a concern, absolutely.
I mean, one of the fundamental differences, I think, with PreSearch and, you know, let's say Google or DuckDuckGo, so those guys, and even Brave, the browser, I mean, they're all venture capital backed.
They have, you know, more of that traditional structure where there is kind of a higher profile, you know, target.
We don't have an HR department, for instance, but You know, we're, you know, much more community driven.
Everybody's aligned around the same unit of value within the ecosystem, the pre-search token.
You know, we don't have any equity investors.
It's a totally different kind of fundamental architecture for the project versus your traditional kind of big tech companies.
And so we are, you know, basically there to serve the community, the community that has kind of congregated around the project in the early days, and the people who've been able to, you know, accumulate pre-search tokens over time or, you know, through Significant, you know, either effort or purchasing.
They generally tended to be, you know, freedom and liberty-minded.
Those are the people that we've basically attempted to recruit to the project through our marketing, our positioning, the events that we've been participating in, the people that we've been sponsoring.
And so, you know, our whales are people who are very freedom and liberty minded.
So it's going to be pretty hard to unseat that.
You know, it's possible to think, oh, you know, could Google come in and, you know, buy up a whole bunch of pre-search tokens and start to gain some I mean, it's possible, but it's pretty unlikely just based on a lot of, as well, people have supported the project more for the ethos and more for the vision than they have just a financial opportunity.
And so a lot of people have said, you know, hey, I'm never selling my pre-search tokens.
You know, I'm here for, you know, the next 20 years because we're building out something that's going to combat the challenges that we've identified within the internet ecosystem.
And so, I mean, it's definitely possible.
But, you know, as far as I'm concerned, you know, I'm in it more for the vision.
I'm not really in it for the financial opportunity.
It's been more about how do we do something that we can be proud of that is going to help turn this tide that we've seen over the past 20 years just kind of going, you know, downhill.
We're in a race to the bottom right now on so many different fronts.
And if we don't turn that around, we're in this dystopian police state that is just, you know, absolutely terrifying.
And we need to figure out a way to create a different outcome and leverage this really huge opportunity.
I mean, the internet obviously is where it's at.
And search is really, you know, Google has the most profitable business model in history, kind of the best online business model.
This is a very similar model.
So there's potentially, you know, a lot of kind of ability to leverage resources for good.
And so that's why I'm drawn to it.
And most of the team and our supporters are the same way.
Well, it sort of reminds me of the movie Matrix where Neo starts off by looking at a screen.
It's like, but that's all it is. Like the rest of it with the kickboxing and flying helicopters and stuff, that was kind of cool.
But it's just that to me, the world is kind of divided in two kinds of people, right?
Well, first is those who own crypto and those who are into the cuck box.
But the second is those who use mainstream media and search engines and they get a particular and very warped view.
I'm just reading Sheryl Atkinson's book, Slanted, for just how unbelievably biased the media is.
And that's certainly been my experience.
I mean, way back in the day, I'd wander into a meeting with a reporter like, well, I know you're not my friend, but I'm sure you're going to try to be objective.
And it's like, nope, it's not going to happen, never going to happen in a million years.
And so... The reality that people experience who use mainstream media and search engines is so different from the reality.
And I would really invite people to do this.
You know, you can go to Google, whose original motto was, do no evil dot dot dot yet.
But go to Google, search for stuff, go to other engines, go to pre-search and search for stuff.
It's wildly different.
It's wildly, wildly different.
And it's not even the same picture with different interpretations.
You know, like you could see a picture of your girlfriend hugging a guy until you find out it's her brother.
You're all mad, right?
And it's the same picture, just different interpretations.
It's not even the same picture.
It's not even the same planet.
It's not even the same reality.
My daughter and I did this experiment.
Like, women can do anything.
Be magnificent.
Be amazing.
You know, men can be women.
Be neurotic.
It's all so curated that you're not in a fact universe.
You are in a programmed universe.
I mean, you think the programming that Google does is on their computers.
No, no, no, no. What the programming they do is on you.
And that differentiating, the bigger that the alternative search engines get, The more, at least, there is a pushback against this sort of mainstream narrative.
And those of us who are pursuing this kind of calling look generally and genuinely insane to people around you.
It's like, hey, man, you could make a lot more money if you didn't touch these topics, but you could make a lot more money if you worked for Google.
Okay, you got to live.
I get all of that. Nothing wrong with that.
But, you know, we got to have more than just more.
You know, we got to have more than just more stuff.
We got to have actually some retention of value and free speech and virtue and goodness and truth and light and reason in this world.
And, you know, it bothers me because all of the good stuff that we have in our life, the free markets, free speech, the remains thereof, came because people were insane according to the standards of their time and stood up for things that cost them enormously so that we could get this stuff.
And now we've got all this great stuff.
We're like, hey, man, thanks for working, Granddad.
It was really great that you worked 12 hours.
But, you know, I want to go and buy every game on PS5 that I'm never going to play.
And sorry, that's where all your money went.
But, hey, man, thanks for stuffing your ass up a chimney for 12 hours a day.
I'm blowing it all. I'm squandering it all.
And that's really kind of annoying.
It's kind of inevitable because we're so materially programmed to want more and more.
But if it's a mission that you guys are on, you get your Blues Brothers glasses, you get your pack of cigarettes, you get your beater, and we're on a mission from God.
We're on a mission from virtue.
And if that is the core of the culture, that's pretty tough to shake, I think.
Yeah, totally. I mean, I went down the rabbit hole quite a while ago, you know, 15, 16 years ago.
I kind of approached the rabbit hole from a totally different standpoint, honestly.
I thought that I, you know, and it was a very mainstream standpoint.
I thought that I was very informed and educated.
I thought we won World War II. Yeah, exactly.
And then as I started just peeling back the onion, I just started realizing how many things I was completely wrong about and how many of my perceptions had been set by people with an agenda that ultimately I didn't agree with.
And it was a real eye-opener and, you know, kind of anticipated that we would end up in the situation that we're in right now.
They've basically told us, you know, straight up kind of what the ultimate destination is for all this stuff.
And, you know, the China social credit system is quite terrifying.
And, you All the ways that that can be used to control people and end up with a very compliant populace that ultimately is just there to, you know, fulfill the, you know, visions and dreams of the elite.
It's, you know...
Quite different than, let's say, you know, the potential that we've had over the past hundred years in our, you know, free or at least, you know, semi-free environment to, you know, be who we want and to explore different points of view and to Just have a more, you know, wholesome life and be able to just really reach our human potential.
That is, you know, starting to just really, in my view, kind of narrow down and Yeah, I think we need to, you know, go as far as we can with decentralized technology.
And hopefully, you know, it is able to continue to access, you know, what appears to right now be a free and open internet.
And that, you know, we can kind of help more people uncover information in different points of view that, you know, might conflict with the general narrative, but might resonate more with what they actually, you know, feel and identify as humans as being, you know, more accurate and more verifiable.
So that's, you know, what I'm hoping we're going to be able to help people accomplish.
Oh, yeah. I've got atheist friends who are like, you know, the Bible is just narrative.
It's not really true. Hey, what's on CNN? It's like, dude, dude, at least the Bible's got some good morals.
CNN will just ride you off the cliff.
So, yeah, I mean, it is really sad.
You know, I mean, the 2006 to 2016, the sort of glory days of free speech on the Internet are long in the rear view.
And people sort of forget 1984.
They think it's sort of Big Brother.
But the 1984 was founded on screens.
That was how they controlled you, was through screens, right?
Through the telescreen in your room and following everything that you did and controlling history, erasing the past.
I mean, all of that is, you know, Winston Smith was a guy, but all of that's being done by computers now at the moment.
And it is... Everything that's great gets turned to crap by jerks.
That's my fundamental philosophy these days.
The fact that you guys seem to be not jerks in the not-jerk column seems very good.
Let's close off with some practicalities because I think a lot of people don't even know.
You have a choice about what happens when you type into the window of your browser.
If it goes to Google, you can just go to your options.
You can change your default search engine.
Let's go through some sort of practical steps about what it is that people can do to start using your service, to sign up for the coins, to change defaults on their browsers and so on.
Awesome. Yeah, great points.
So yeah, basically there's two ways to use it.
If you don't want to log in, you can do so and just go to pre-search.org and just run normal searches like you would with Google.
We've basically implemented kind of all these different, there's more than 100 different search engines and We're good to go.
We don't store any queries.
It's very, you know, privacy focused.
So it's just pre-search.org.
If you want to change your defaults, if you're on a laptop or a desktop, easiest way, if you go to pre-search.org slash extensions, you can just install browser extensions for all the most common web browsers.
On mobile, we are preparing to release a new app on iOS that's basically a web browser.
Uh, because, uh, that environment is fairly controlled.
You can't set a new search engine, uh, through Safari.
If you're on iOS or even brave browser, uh, they've just got, you know, five resources that you can choose from.
And so, uh, we're doing it that way on Android.
You are able to change your default search engine, uh, just under your, your settings.
So you can go in there and change it to, uh, Presearch.
But easiest way is to go just to t.me slash presearch.
That's our online community on Telegram.
And then any questions you have, any help you need, you can go in there and ask.
And real humans, not just people that are, you know, on a payroll, will be able to answer.
It's a free and open, uncensored community.
You can go in there and, you know, ask tough questions.
Ask any questions that you might have to make decisions and to, yeah, ultimately change your defaults and then search through pre-search.
And the queries that you would send to a more mainstream search engine would be anonymized for the end user, is that correct?
Exactly, yep. So they come in, they hit what we call a node gateway that basically anonymizes everything.
Then that distributes the query out to the nodes that are running on user computers and user servers.
And then they go out, they grab all the information and then send it back to us.
So, yep, totally anonymized.
Okay, and we had just talked that you had just bought a new website name or a new URL. Did you want to mention that or is it premature?
Yeah, it's coming out this week.
I don't know when this is going to air, but yes, finally picked up the.com, so pretty excited about that.
And for those of you who've never gone shopping for websites, I was saying just before we started, I went from free domain radio to free domain, and I was like, ah, come on, free domain, it's not that common, and I'm now short one kidney to have free domain, so I appreciate your commitment to the URL. So, yeah, pre-search, just look them up, and it's well worth looking into.
I mean, we've got to do each individual little things, you know, they're big in the terms of our life, they may be little globally, but, you know, that think locally, act globally stuff that comes out of the environmental movement I think is really, really good.
I do appreciate your time today.
I wish you the very best of luck with the venture.
And, you know, I'm very keen on any search engine that, you know, returns something other than Satan when people search for me because it doesn't seem particularly fair or objective.
But thanks for your time today, Colin.
It's a great pleasure to chat. Yeah, thanks to you as well, Stefan.
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