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Nov. 8, 2020 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:13:13

HOW TO GET OUT OF THE 'FRIEND ZONE' - Freedomain Call In

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	Good evening, Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain.
	Hope you're doing well. It is the 6th of November, 2020.
	Hey, is the election done yet?
	I'm not sure in the U.S. I think it may still have a little bit of a ways to go.
	Oh, what was it? Al Gore in 2000 litigated the election for 38 days.
	It could have gone longer, I suppose.
	And of course, Nixon handed it over, though he knew there was crazy cheating in Chicago in 1960.
	Nixon handed it over to John F. Kennedy because he said it was for the good of the nation.
	That kind of self-sacrifice tends to go rather unappreciated, unrewarded in the realm of politics.
	So I guess we will just see what's going to go down from here.
	But I suppose the Trump group is going to continue to fight and fight on.
	And as I said before, this is kind of one of the reasons I didn't...
	I really want to get too involved in the US elections.
	It was pretty clear that it was going to be a bunch of cheating.
	And so it's a matter for the courts, not for the philosophers.
	So anyway, that's where things are at.
	Just want to mention, sorry, my voice is a little rough tonight.
	I've spent two hours reading almost my historical novel set between World War I and World War II. And you know what's kind of funny?
	I remember, you know, everybody sings in the shower and says, hey, not bad, right?
	And then you, like, maybe you get around to recording yourself and then playing it back and you're like, oh, that's why the professionals get paid so much.
	And it's funny, reading a book that I wrote almost 20 years ago now, you know, I gotta tell you, I mean, to be perfectly frank, Because false modesty is just another form of hypocrisy.
	It's even better than I remembered.
	It's even better than I remembered.
	And it's funny too because I forget some of the twists and turns.
	In fact, I forgot most of the twists and turns in the story.
	And reading it again, it really is kind of like reading it for the first time.
	And of course I read ahead and I make notes about which voices to use and I have little snippets of each voice to make sure I get them right.
	And, yeah, reading it again, I really, really strongly recommend.
	I mean, you say, oh, well, you know, but there's this big election stuff going on.
	But this novel is very much centered around the cause and effect of the reasons for the rise of political violence.
	Why is it that violence begins to displace violence?
	recent negotiation.
	I mean, even the sort of cover forms of it that occur in a democracy, why is it that violence begins to grow in democracies?
	And of course, end of First World War to beginning of Second World War was a rise of political violence all across the West.
	Of course, closing days of, closing year or two of World War I, you've got the Russian Revolution, and then there was the Mussolini's fascist revolution in the 20s.
	Then there was, of course, Germany in the 30s, and the rise of political violence was everywhere.
	You can see this, of course, even in America now, where you've got judges who are afraid to rule because they're afraid that the hard left is going to firebomb their homes, right?
	I mean, it's a violence that sadly works because we are designed not for integrity, but for survival.
	And there are, of The other way around and more power to them.
	But you should really check out this book.
	It's really, really great. It's called Almost.
	It's available for free.
	It's long.
	I mean, if you like the characters, you'll get to spend a lot of time with them.
	And I remember... After I finished the book, I actually missed these people.
	Like, I missed spending time with them.
	They were that vivid to me.
	So, you can get it at fdrurl.com forward slash almost.
	That's fdrurl.com forward slash almost.
	Or you can go to freedomain.com forward slash...
	Almost, if you would like to read the first couple of chapters throughout, and I'll get more out.
	They're just a little bit tough to format for WordPress, which apparently likes to squish everything down accordion-style when it comes to putting out a paragraph.
	Just technical nonsense we'll have to solve at some point.
	And don't forget, of course, freedomend.com forward slash donate to help out the show.
	Yeah, it's... Kind of important.
	These days, I suppose, you know, I haven't really spent much time asking for donations this year because I know it's been COVID and all of that, but freedomain.com forward slash donate.
	If you can help out, I'd really appreciate that.
	And last but not least, if you're not signed up to the newsletter, you want to go to freedomain.com forward slash newsletter to sign up.
	All right. Enough housekeeping.
	Let us move on to the great listenership.
	James, hit me.
	All right. So tonight we have a caller who writes in, or listener who writes in, caller tonight.
	Hello. I've listened to Stefan for over six years now that have never actually attempted to contact him.
	But in this situation, I believe it is necessary.
	I am a 25-year-old man who has had a rather traumatic past due to a heart condition that I was born with.
	Multiple open-heart surgeries as a child managed to produce a permanent solution, and I'm physically healthy, and I have gone to therapy and done lots of reflection to process some of the mental trauma.
	However, last year I began dating a co-worker, a woman that is now 20 years old, I'm a Christian and want to one day get married and raise a family.
	Her parents are still together and I haven't run into any serious deal-breakers, but I'm afraid of getting into a long-term relationship that will not work out.
	My girlfriend, while her grandparents are Christians and she isn't hostile to religion, is unfortunately not a Christian.
	She has also repeatedly talked about how sometimes relationships don't work out in the long run.
	I keep in mind that I am her very first relationship, and she has said before that she is open to marriage and family, but I can't help but feel that she's conflicted about it.
	I know that prevention is much better than cure, and I'd like to explore this if it's possible.
	I love her dearly, but if she truly doesn't think that she's going to stay with me permanently, then I need to confront that.
	Thank you for all that you guys do.
	It really makes a difference.
	And he goes by Paul, not his real name.
	Paul, yeah, I'm so sorry that all your predictions were so wrong over the last election.
	Just kidding! Boy, nothing like a little light election humor during a crisis of the Constitution.
	Paul, how are you doing tonight? Really, really nervous, honestly, Stefan.
	I've listened to you for years, and it's surreal being here.
	No, listen, that's very wise.
	I am aggressive and terrifying.
	So, you know, that's very important to stay afraid.
	Very, very important. We can have a productive conversation if you're relaxed.
	So I appreciate what you're doing.
	Tell me a little bit about the childhood stuff, like what happened with your heart and how was it fixed?
	Oh, boy. So I was born with a very...
	It's a very rare heart condition.
	I don't want to know all the details, but...
	Basically, the heart was born malformed with massive holes between the chambers.
	And I was operated on when I was only about, I think, three days old.
	They had to crack me open and then fix that.
	And because I was still a baby and because medical technology, you know, 25 years ago was not what it is now...
	They basically had to do a quick fix so that I could survive until I was old enough to go back in and then do kind of a more permanent solution.
	So I had one surgery when I was a few days old and then by some miracle it lasted all the way up until I was about seven or eight.
	And then they went with another open heart surgery and then did a permanent fix.
	And then the final surgery I've had, the third one, was when I was just about to graduate high school.
	Basically, they needed to switch an artificial valve out for a bigger one because I was now an adult, not a child.
	And what are your memories of the hospital and so on?
	Really bad, honestly.
	I don't have anything against...
	I mean, doctors and nurses, they were all fantastic and wonderful, but I still have...
	I can go to hospitals fine, but I've looked into it, and I think this is like a PTSD thing, like a heart rate monitor or something that beeps like a heart rate monitor kind of makes me, I guess, freeze up a bit just for a second.
	It's been difficult to deal with that sort of thing.
	And, sorry, what was the age that you were fixed at?
	Yeah. They operated on me when I was a few days old.
	It's kind of a temporary fix.
	The permanent one came when I was about seven or eight.
	Can't remember the exact time, but seven or eight.
	Okay. And what sort of happened with regards to your dating?
	I mean, because by the time you were dating, obviously, this is pretty deep in the rear view.
	And because it was so early on in your life, I'm not saying it wasn't tough.
	Of course it was, right? Yeah.
	But what was the effect for you on friendships, socializing, that kind of stuff?
	It was definitely difficult.
	Maybe not necessarily as a direct result of the surgery, but I also was kind of an outcast when I was younger.
	Partly because, you know, it's like a massive gap to be in the middle of, like, grade three or grade four.
	Just suddenly, you know, Paul is gone for two weeks to the hospital and then come back, and then he can't do as much physical activity with the rest of the boys because he's still recovering from surgery and that sort of thing.
	So I got along with everybody okay, but it was basically I went to school, I got along, and then I went home and didn't hang out with anybody else.
	Now, I mean, how were your parents with all this?
	My parents...
	They did their...
	Well... The problem was, they've never really dealt with this sort of thing before.
	I did ask them about, because I wondered, like, is this some kind of a genetic thing that runs in the family?
	And my parents did tell me that they went to a geneticist after I was born, and one of my siblings also has another kind of defect, not related to the heart, but something else.
	And the geneticist basically said...
	The geneticist said that he couldn't tell any kind of family connection.
	It was just something about my two parents' mixture caused the boys of the family to maybe have some kind of a defect.
	They did try to set me up with kind of a psychologist or a kid psychiatrist, but...
	They don't have any real practical experience, and honestly, they didn't really talk to me much about it.
	It was kind of just, well, you're alive.
	Great. Go live your life normally now, which...
	So, they didn't have a lot of emotional skills or abilities to help you with what was going on?
	Not really, no.
	I... Part of it was maybe I didn't talk to them about it much.
	I can't really think of why, but I guess just part of me thought, well, I'm the oldest of three, so I thought maybe I should just not bring it up.
	Wait, what do you mean? This is something that I've kind of struggled with.
	It's gotten better now, but I feel like I've been too...
	I kind of have a protective personality, but sometimes I think, especially in my youth, it went too far and I just thought, well, I don't want to be a burden to my parents, so I should probably just not discuss these sort of things with them.
	And even if I could, like, I guess I just thought if I do discuss it with them, I don't think they can help me, so what's the point?
	Right, okay.
	So tell me a little bit more about that.
	What does it mean? Like, you'd have, obviously, some social issues, and some of that would be because of a lack of activity, you know, especially boys.
	You know, we bond over doing stuff, you know, climbing trees, playing soccer, fighting, like all of this.
	When I was a kid, sort of playing war was the big thing.
	I mean, the scenes in Almost Don't Come Out of Nowhere.
	And so there's a lot of activity.
	And of course, if you are physically compromised...
	And this was a pretty bloody significant one, right?
	Then you're going to have trouble bonding with sort of boys.
	And it's not like, you know, you're going to be particularly interested at that age, like when you're seven or six or whatever, in sort of hanging out with a bunch of girls and all that.
	So was it almost like, well, you know, I've been such a burden, so to speak, that it would be kind of mean to bring the social issues to bear on them?
	Is there something like that or something different?
	Somewhat. I'm... Physically, when I was a kid, like after I got over the surgery, it took a couple months, but I was totally fine.
	I could pretty much do anything.
	I didn't have any shortness of breath or anything.
	But again, I was never a very physical kid.
	I did grow up in a very kind of small town.
	So it was basically, I was the odd man out in that all the boys wanted to do sports and I was just not that way inclined.
	You got like a future as a podcast, a philosophy podcast listenership, right?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	Right, right. Okay. Okay.
	And what was your parents' relationship like?
	If you asked me that question like seven years ago, I would say great.
	But now I'd say they have a good relationship.
	They do love each other.
	Divorce has never been an option for them.
	But I will say I think...
	Sometimes I think that they have difficulty discussing more serious kind of emotional problems.
	Especially my mom because she gets a little bit...
	Basically, my dad doesn't know how to deal with it, so he just kind of gives what he says, what he thinks, and then leaves it at that.
	And then my mom will get a little bit too emotional and then won't be able to talk about some things.
	So do you mean in general stuff or your health issues in particular?
	Mostly, when it comes to my health issues, and I also did suffer from depression pretty seriously, and that was another big problem, which...
	Also, when I was younger, I did have a lot of anger issues, and I think that was the depression manifesting is anger, but...
	My parents didn't really want to deal with or talk to me about it.
	They basically just said, you need to calm down and get over it and move on with your life kind of thing.
	They basically just said, well, if you want to, you can go and talk to the school counselor, which to me was like, well, you're my parents.
	Why can't you help?
	Right, right.
	Have you seen them have emotional skills in any other areas?
	Or is this like a general, like, I can't sometimes speak Japanese, like I don't speak Japanese, right?
	Other than a little bit from the Styx song, right?
	So do you think that they had particular issues with their own kids?
	Or was it something that they had a general inability with?
	I think a general inability with, because I do think back, and my younger sister also got into a really, really, like, abusive, toxic relationship that was long distance over the internet, and my parents basically didn't seem to notice.
	Which, to me, like, when I found out about it, I was thinking, like...
	Well, I felt guilty because I thought I should have done something because, you know, I love my little sister.
	I want to protect her. But more recently, I kind of thought, like, why is that my job?
	Wow. Okay. So tell me a little bit about that.
	You're the eldest, is that right?
	I'm the oldest son.
	So tell me a little bit about what happened with your sister.
	How old was she and what was the details and how did it resolve?
	I don't know the exact details because she doesn't like to talk about it.
	If it's any consolation, nobody knows the exact details of anything.
	No, seriously. I get what you mean, but nobody knows the exact details.
	Nobody knows the exact details of anything because even to know the exact details of your own relationship with yourself is kind of impossible.
	So just give me the general, if you can.
	I don't want to dwell too much on it because, well, I don't know.
	To sum it up, my little sister hung around online in, like, she played a few video games and she started talking to a boy from a forum and then the boy started talking to her privately over Skype and then got her into some rather...
	Disturbing sexual roleplay stuff.
	And, like, she was, like, 14 at this time, and he was, like, I think 13.
	And then she basically did this for a couple of months and then finally snapped herself out of it and blocked him on everything and disappeared, and then my parents found out.
	And kind of like with me, they just didn't really discuss...
	Again, I don't know if she discussed it with them, but it felt to me like they just kind of were like, well...
	It's over now, move on, kind of, again with the kind of move on attitude.
	Wow. And how did she, did some outsider come in or did she figure it out herself or how did it terminate?
	She basically figured out herself.
	She felt this is, something is horribly, horribly wrong here and I need to stop.
	And she just kind of did herself.
	Wow. Good for her. Good for her.
	And what was your relationship like with her when you were a child?
	I would like to think, and I do think I'm very close with my little sister, but definitely in the early life, it was more difficult.
	I wouldn't say what we were nearly as close as we are now because I was dealing with a lot of depression and that manifested as anger.
	And I think she also was dealing with a bit of depression, not as bad as me, but She basically, she had her own thing.
	She hung out with her friends in her grade, and that was kind of her group, and she didn't really hang out with me that much.
	We talked about some things, but other things, we just kind of thought, well, I guess we'll leave it.
	And tell me when your depression came along and what it was like.
	Did it start from anything, or was it more existential, or what?
	I think, looking back, officially, I was diagnosed with depression by a psychologist in, I think, grade 10, which high school was when it really started.
	But I think it really started when I was in grade 5, because I had...
	Like, the surgery was only a year old.
	I had two very close...
	I had two, like, really close friends that I hung around with all the time at that time.
	And I also had a cousin that I hung around with a lot that I really got along with well.
	But in grade five, my cousin moved away to a different province, and I basically didn't see him again for...
	Five or six years.
	And one of my best friend's parents actually got divorced and he moved away and I didn't see him again either.
	And then the final best friend we basically just...
	It grew apart because we were both kind of introverted and the one friend who moved away was more the extrovert that kind of kept us together.
	And I think that's when the depression really started.
	I just wanted to mention too, this is something that's kind of underreported, but man, divorces are absolutely brutal on friendships.
	And my gosh, that is, that's hell.
	That's just hell on wheels.
	And I'm sorry about this, obviously, for you.
	Just terrible, terrible stuff.
	And it's just important to remember, you know, if you're thinking of getting divorced as a parent, it's like, well, it's going to Kind of ride roughshod over your kids' friendships.
	Friends of mine, yeah, parents got divorced.
	Their kids' friend, parents got divorced and they ended up on other sides of the country.
	And yeah, you know, let's Skype.
	But, you know, it just generally unravels over time.
	I'm sorry about that.
	And it's a very common story.
	It's kind of underreported on in society, you know, just how much bonding and friendship just kind of fades away when your kids because of that.
	Sorry, there wasn't really a question in that.
	So you said it was around grade 10 that you were diagnosed with a depression?
	Yes. And was this something that brought it about in particular?
	I think what happened was, you've talked about before, you kind of can coast along maybe when you're young, but then when you start to near adulthood, it's like...
	Oh my goodness, real life is about to hit me full force, I'm going to be a legal adult.
	I think that's basically what happened, because I kind of coasted through, you know, grade six to nine, but then when I get into high school, it's like, I'm going to graduate in three years, I'm going to be out of school, and then I'm going to have to figure out what I'm going to do with my life, and I think that really hit me.
	Like a ton of bricks. Right, the huge unpreparedness.
	Huge unpreparedness is a very, very big issue for younger people these days.
	And I mean, it's the same when I was younger too.
	I mean, you grew up with a single mom.
	So she teaches you everything bad, everything wrong about relationships because, you know, she's been unable...
	To have a functional relationship that's lasted.
	And so what happens is she, you know, in general, this is a single mom thing.
	She just kind of lies to you.
	Oh, men should be sensitive.
	A woman wants a sensitive. It's like none of the guys my mom dated were sensitive or whatever.
	So it's all just – it's almost like she programs you to try to be like the men that she knows she should be attracted to but can't get there because of this magic spell.
	Chemistry, you know, if there's no chemistry, it's like chemistry usually just means – Lust and dysfunction meeting in an unholy Satan sweat brew are a future catastrophe.
	So, yeah, when I was a kid too, just unprepared.
	Unprepared. I mean, I finished high school a semester early.
	I went to go work up north.
	I started an English degree, switched to National Theatre School, went to history, did a graduate degree, and I kind of fell into coding and working professionally in that way.
	But it wasn't like I was sort of prepared.
	Now, I mean, if you're someone who's like, you know, I love taking things apart.
	I've always wanted to be an engineer. I know I want to be a doctor.
	Then, you know, you can kind of Take that path.
	Oof. Yeah, it's...
	It's pretty ridiculous how unprepared we are for life.
	And, you know, we've got this huge social experiment going on, right?
	And it has been for, I don't know, 30, 40 years, where we just turn over the education of our young to women.
	That's just women, right?
	I mean, this is a funny thing, right? I mean, I didn't like boarding school at the time, but at least I recognize that looking back now, at least I get to see some men in charge, you know?
	Not really the way it is for most people.
	Most little boys, you know, if they're raised by single moms, they're in a single mom environment.
	Moms are in charge everywhere.
	They go to daycare. Women are in charge there.
	They go to primary school. Women are in charge there.
	Maybe they'll start to get a male teacher or two in junior high or high school and by then they're told about how men run everything and it's like, well, what now?
	What the hell are you people talking about?
	So we've got this experiment where we've turned over the education of our young, as a society, as societies, to women.
	And I think, see, in many ways, women don't have to prepare nearly as much for life because they always have the fallback position of, "Well, I'll just get married or I'll just get a boyfriend." That's why you don't see that many homeless women because women can just trade sex for So, I mean, they can always find, usually, almost always, unless they're really crazy, right?
	Almost always find a place to survive.
	So, women don't have to have the same urgency to prepare for that men do, which is why I think so many men or boys are just ridiculously unprepared.
	For adulthood in society these days.
	I mean, it's just terrible. It's just terrible.
	And I think a lot of that has to do with we've just turned everything over to women and women in general to a larger degree than men.
	You know, morality really comes out of consequences.
	I mean, it's not the intellectual abstract definition of morality, but it's kind of why we have Morality.
	You know, like why do you save your crops for the winter if you have a harsh winter climate?
	Well, because you're going to starve to death because you can't grow crops, many crops in the winter, turnips and stuff, right?
	So, practicality and morality really comes out of consequences.
	And men face more significant consequences for moral breaches in many ways than women do, right?
	I mean, we know that this is called the pussy pass, right?
	Like women get off, so to speak, with judges.
	They get sentenced much less than men, and they get much shorter jail terms.
	And of course, if they get pregnant, which is the great issue for women, they can just run to the government and get free stuff.
	And There's always some guy panting after them who's willing to pay their bills, and the sugar daddy stuff is not just a website series, but it's also a lot of women's lives.
	And so it's just a more consequence-free life that women have.
	Again, on average, in general, lots of exceptions.
	Maybe it's only 51, 49, but it's definitely there as an issue, and it's pretty bad, because men, there's a lot of consequences.
	For men, if you get involved in a moral dispute with another boy, you likely to end up in a fistfight, man.
	Real consequences for men.
	And I remember this when I was younger and, you know, really running out of money after I finished my graduate degree and decided, like I was mulling it over PhD, not PhD, and so on.
	And I was like, my gosh, I'm out of money.
	Now, I can't just, in a sense, go to a bar, find some rich guy and say, oh my gosh, I can't pay my bills.
	I can't be relaxed enough to have sex if I'm worried about paying my bills.
	Oh, here, honey, a little, right?
	So, I just remember that.
	Like, wow, I could end up, like, with no place to live.
	It's pretty serious stuff.
	And it's just not that way for women.
	As I said before, like it shows before, I remember having a blind date.
	No, it wasn't a blind date. It was a setup.
	Well, I guess it was a blind date. Somebody knew.
	And somebody knew someone who they said would be good for me.
	And that's when you really find out who your friends are, right?
	Hey, this person would be great for you.
	She was complaining in the coffee shop about her boyfriend who ran up, I think, $17,000 on her credit card.
	And, you know, I sort of understood it even then instinctively at the time that this was kind of a, hey, will you pay off my bills?
	If my last boyfriend cost me 17 grand, maybe I can get involved with you and you can pay off my bills and all this kind of good stuff.
	And, of course, I did pay her bill.
	I did. I did pay for her coffee and then never saw her again.
	So there is this just kind of consequence-free life.
	And this leads to, you know, the basic fact that women end up much more in debt more often than men.
	This is why women run up these ridiculous student loans.
	And then what do they expect?
	Some guys just going to come along and pay their debts?
	I mean, that's crazy.
	That's crazy. I mean, I guess enough men do that it works or works-ish, I suppose.
	But Yeah, it's a terrible thing.
	It's a terrible thing that these women just kind of sail along.
	And then they assume that, you know, well, some politician, I can vote for some politician to eliminate my student debt.
	But, you know, men don't want to pay for useless educations at the same time as, you know, some woman is in her late 20s, early 30s.
	You want to settle down and have kids.
	And she comes with $100,000 of student debt.
	It's like, well, how to make the ambitious and intelligent women in your society not have children and drop the IQ curve considerably.
	Well, I guess it's all part of the whole process, right?
	So, yeah, sorry for the sort of slight tangent there, but as far as not being prepared, I hope you don't feel bad about this.
	Like, I hope you don't feel bad about this, like this not being prepared thing.
	Um, You know, you shouldn't feel bad about that any more than you feel bad if you don't speak Japanese.
	You don't grow up in Japan. You don't have a Japanese speaker in the house.
	They don't teach it in school. Like, how on earth could you really practically learn it as a kid, right?
	At least, certainly not as easily as somebody who's growing up with it.
	So, yeah, I just, as far as all of that goes, like, I think maybe the depression doesn't come so much from being unprepared as it comes from the implications of being unprepared.
	Like, what does it mean? That you're unprepared.
	So for me, being unprepared for adulthood, what that meant was I'd been unparented and my school had sucked into galactic ass.
	And so I didn't sort of take it on like, oh, there's something wrong with me.
	I'm unprepared. I've not been responsible.
	No, I've been very responsible.
	As I said, I got my first job when I was 10.
	I was working three jobs in high school, junior high, like you name it, right?
	And I hope that, or I guess that's my question, Paul, is what was your emotional relationship to being unprepared?
	Was it something that was your fault, or what was the cause of it, being unprepared?
	I guess I felt like it was my fault partially, but also I was...
	I think subconsciously I was absolutely furious with my parents and parts of my family and a lot of people around me that I felt basically didn't help me when I really badly needed it.
	Right. Yeah, I think that's important.
	So the unconscious anger at being unprepared, being unprotected.
	Tell me a little bit more about that.
	Was that something you knew at the time or something you figured out later or what?
	I figured out later. At the time, I was just absolutely furious and angry and I would come home and just play video games just to be away from everybody, basically.
	And if anybody interrupted me, I'd just tell them to go away and get angry if they didn't.
	And I didn't know why at the time.
	I couldn't figure out...
	I didn't know why I was so angry.
	But I think now, like in the past year, year and a half, I think I've figured out or nailed down why.
	And that was the reason I felt, frankly, betrayed.
	Right. Okay, so let's say that you had felt angry.
	At the time when you were a kid, when you were in sort of grade 10 or whatever led up, like the time that led up to your depression, let's say you had felt angry.
	What would have happened?
	Yeah, let's not, you know, let's show, don't tell, right?
	So can you, who would you have talked to, your mom or your dad first?
	I would have went to my dad first because...
	The problem with my mom is she can get quite emotional and I've always found that a bit annoying.
	Well, like this is some sort of outside the norm.
	My mom can get a bit too emotional.
	Like this is some sort of outside the norm thing.
	That's mom's, right? As a whole.
	Okay. So, if you don't mind, you be your dad.
	I'll obviously try and approximate you because I just want to get a sense of where this conversation would have gone.
	So let's say it's not now.
	It's back then, right? So you were, what, 14 or 15 in grade 10?
	I can't remember. Something like that, right?
	So you be your dad.
	I come to you and I say, Dad, Dad, we got to talk.
	We really, really need to talk.
	Okay. What about son?
	Well, I'm pretty pissed, if you don't mind me saying so.
	I'm kind of pissed. Maybe I'm right.
	Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I'm just telling you sort of what I feel.
	That, I think, like, my belief is that you and mom did sweet frackle to kind of prepare me for adulthood.
	Like, I don't have many social skills because I was really isolated as a kid.
	Now, I mean, some of that was the illness, the ailment, but my God, I mean, it's been...
	I've been seven, eight years since then.
	Don't you notice that I just sit home and play video games all the time?
	I don't have that many friends over.
	I don't socialize much.
	I'm not getting invited to a bunch of parties.
	I've never had a job.
	I don't feel like I'm looking at the future.
	I'm scared, crapless.
	Like, what the hell am I going to do with my life?
	I don't know. And I feel like I'm just, I have to invent everything myself.
	Like, what's the plan for me becoming an adult?
	What's your plan to help me be ready for this?
	Well, you just need a better work ethic.
	You just need to work harder.
	I mean, you'll be fine.
	Just try to work harder, and it'll work out.
	Well, that's it? That's it?
	Work harder? That's your fortune cookie to me, Dad?
	What the hell? What are you talking about?
	Work harder? At what?
	In what direction? When I was your age, I was working on the farm and I worked very hard for my dad and I really appreciated that.
	He taught me a lot about the importance of hard work.
	Okay, so wasn't it your job then to transfer that to me?
	Well, I tried, but you're just so lazy all the time.
	Oh, so it's me.
	Like, it's my fault. And I don't mean that.
	That sounds kind of, like, bitchy and all that.
	I don't mean, oh, it's my fault. No, so genuinely, your theory is that I should work harder, but the reason I haven't worked harder is because I'm lazy.
	Like, is that genetics?
	Is that, like, I'm just a bad, lazy person?
	Like, what's your theory for that?
	I know you've had challenges in the past, but I think you just, if you really put your mind to it, I'm sure that you'll do really great things.
	Just, you know, chin up, nose to the grindstone, work hard.
	Okay, so I'll tell you what's confusing to me at the moment.
	And you could be entirely right.
	Maybe I'm totally lazy. Maybe you're giving me great advice.
	But I'll tell you what's really tough for me at the moment.
	So, Dad, you're telling me...
	Son, you got to work hard.
	You got to work hard. Nose to the grindstone.
	But you're not working hard right now.
	You're just giving me a bunch of cliches.
	I'm telling you, I'm genuinely terrified for my future.
	And you're just saying, well, you're lazy.
	How hard are you working right now as a parent when you're giving me the advice to work really hard?
	And, you know, got to tell your dad, like thinking back, come to think of it.
	How hard have you worked in the past at parenting me?
	And I gotta tell you, it really doesn't feel like a lot.
	It feels like you were just kind of content in a way to let me write in my room and read my books and play my games and surf the web.
	And how hard were you, dad, working as a parent When your daughter, my sister, almost got pulled into some creepy, half-pedophile sex thing online, you weren't keeping tabs on that.
	You're not keeping tabs on your kids.
	You're not giving us guidance.
	You're not asking us how we're doing.
	You're not dealing with issues.
	Excuse my French dad, but how much are you working as a dad to make sure your kids are okay?
	How much time a week do you spend sitting down one-on-one or whatever with your kids, making sure things are okay, making sure everything's going hunky-dory, making sure they're safe, making sure they're prepared?
	I mean, did you even know how scared I am about the future?
	You had no clue. So you're telling me work hard.
	Why don't you work a little damn hard at your parenting?
	I don't know what to tell you, son.
	Maybe it's a generational thing for you.
	I know things are different these days than when I was growing up, but...
	No, no, no. I'm not doing it to generational.
	Dad, let's just be practical.
	Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm completely wrong about all of this.
	You tell me, how many hours a week do you spend talking to your children and parenting them?
	Maybe... Maybe two hours, if that...
	So, two hours a week.
	Well, what do you mean by parenting?
	I know I try to spend time with you, but I suppose when it comes to talking about serious things, we really maybe don't do that enough.
	What do you mean, we? You're the parent, Dad.
	It's your job. You know, it's like I'm working the engine room and you're sailing the ship.
	And then you say, well, I guess we got lost.
	It's like, no, no, I'm not up there.
	I don't have my hand on the wheel. You're the one in charge.
	Okay, so let's just rewind over the last month.
	How many hours have you and I spent talking about important issues?
	I mean, we discuss politics all the time, and I know that you really like politics, and I really like politics.
	Is that not a serious issue?
	Well, let me ask you this, Ted.
	Do you talk about politics with other people?
	Yes. Good.
	Okay. So then it's not in the category of parenting now, is it?
	Because you do it with other people who aren't your children.
	So as far as parenting goes, finding out how I'm doing, checking up on me, making sure I'm handling schoolwork, figuring out what my social situation is like, figuring out ways that you can help me and mentor me and whatever, right?
	Over the last month, how many hours have you spent doing that?
	Maybe an hour if we're being generous.
	One hour in a month.
	And you fucking dare to lecture me about being lazy.
	How dare you?
	How dare you lecture me about being lazy when you can't be asked to put more than one hour a month into your most important job?
	What the hell, Dad?
	That's crazy.
	That you're blaming me and calling me horrible names like Lazy.
	When you're the one who can't rouse his ass off the Barker lounger and talk to your own fucking children.
	Again, excuse my French.
	But you understand, that's pretty shitty, Dad.
	Come on. That's not right.
	You can't blame me.
	That's your job, isn't it?
	Uh, I... Look, if you have a problem with my parenting, we can talk about that, but I don't know what you want me to do to fix it.
	I mean, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry that I wasn't the parents that I should have been to you.
	Well, that's kind of like a half admission, but I guess I'll live on crumbs, right?
	So you weren't the parent that you wanted to be, right?
	Because, you know, come on, an hour.
	Like if I said, I really, really want to learn piano.
	It's super important to me. I want to be a pianist.
	It's the most important thing.
	And then I practice piano one hour a month.
	What would you say to me? And then I say, oh man, it's terrible.
	Piano is just, it doesn't work.
	I'm just, I'm not good at piano.
	It just doesn't work. What would you say to me?
	Well, you need to spend more time practicing.
	Yeah. How the hell can you expect to get good at piano?
	You're doing one hour a month.
	Well, I mean, if you wanted to talk to me, why don't you just come and talk to me?
	Well, that's what I'm doing, Dad.
	You don't seem to like it very much, but that's what I'm doing.
	And it's not my job.
	It's your job. Because you're the parent.
	If I'm so mature that I can figure out these issues and I can sit down with you and I can fix our relationship, then guess what?
	I'm the parent and you're the child.
	You might as well say, well, son, why aren't you paying the mortgage?
	Why don't you just go and get a job as a doctor and pay the mortgage?
	It's like, dude, because I'm 14 years old.
	So why don't you talk to me?
	I mean, I know I'm angry and I'm sorry about the swearing.
	I really am. I'm sorry about the swearing.
	But why? Like, it's hard.
	Like, why don't you want to talk to me?
	You said you're not the parent you want to be.
	Like, why? Why?
	That's a big question. I've never been very good with discussing...
	This kind of stuff.
	I guess I'm out of touch with how this sort of emotions go.
	I know when I was your age, I was also struggling with a lot of anchor issues, but I didn't know you felt this strongly about it.
	I'm sorry.
	You didn't know.
	And again, I appreciate what you're saying.
	I really do. It means a lot to me that you're saying this.
	And I'm not going to, like, hold it over you and, oh, Dad, do you remember when you told me you were...
	I really, really appreciate what you're saying here, Dad, but I'll tell you what else I'm angry about, what you're just saying.
	And again, this doesn't mean you're a bad person.
	I'm just sort of being frank about what I feel about my God, Dad.
	I mean, you get mad at me or you call me lazy because you don't think I do the hard work, right?
	That I sort of gravitate to the stuff that's easier.
	I mean, it's not.
	You don't call someone a hard worker if they're just working hard playing a video game because it's fun, right?
	You need the hard work for the stuff that is tough.
	And my whole damn life, you've told me over and over and over again.
	You've told me, Son, I'm a hard worker.
	You've got to be a hard worker.
	You said it in this conversation.
	You've got to have discipline. You're a hard worker.
	Farm, dad, blah, right?
	But you don't need to be a hard worker for jobs that are hard, not jobs that are easy, not jobs that are fun.
	So your whole life you've told me what a hard worker you are.
	And now you've just confessed to me that you haven't been parenting because you find it hard.
	So it's really kind of bullshit, isn't it, Dad?
	This whole, dad's a hard worker.
	Because the job you should have been working hardest at was the one that you found difficult and abandoned, right?
	Which is talking about this stuff.
	Gotta be a hard worker. Oh, that job's hard?
	Nah. And super important?
	No, I'm not going to do it.
	You know, if I didn't do a chore, you said, son, take out the garbage.
	Don't take out the garbage. You get mad at me.
	Oh, you're lazy. You don't listen. You don't get off your ass.
	You don't do the garbage. Well, you don't do the parenting.
	Because you find it hard.
	So who the hell are you to talk to me about laziness, Dad?
	What's more important, garbage or me?
	I don't know what he'd say at this point.
	It's kind of an evil genius I have, right?
	To find these kinds of contradictions.
	And they just pop into my head.
	Like, I'm not sitting there. I don't have a diagram here.
	I'm just... It's like an evil genius.
	I mean, I try to use it for the cause of good and all of that, but this pointing out You know, where people's foundational hypocrisies are, it's my superpower.
	You know, again, I try to use it for good.
	But what were your thoughts about, again, I know I'm roleplaying you, I just met you, you're roleplaying your dad, I don't know him, but how did I do it?
	Pretty good, I'd say.
	Pretty good. I wouldn't have sworn.
	I didn't swear much as a kid, honestly.
	No, no, no. I get that. And that was not great role-playing on my part, so sorry about that.
	But you probably would have felt something like that deep down, even if you hadn't articulated it, I think.
	Well, the passion would have been there.
	I just wouldn't have used that kind of language, probably.
	Right. And then, of course, what happens is people can bail out and complain about your language, and you never get to the issues, right?
	Yeah. Right. Okay.
	So I appreciate you letting me get away with that, Dad.
	But it's so strange to be talking to my father, who's dead.
	Dead, I tell you. But...
	Okay.
	So what else for you happened in the convo?
	I guess I just...
	I don't really know.
	I felt... Just disconnected, kind of like, I'd rather not discuss this, frankly.
	Can we just move on to something else, please?
	Yeah, so sometimes when people apologize, it's like, shut the hell up.
	Because they're basically just getting, stop talking!
	I apologized! And you keep going, it's like, no, no, and he tried it twice.
	He tried twice to apologize to you, just so you'd stop talking.
	At least that's sort of what I got.
	Yeah. I was...
	He's...
	I don't know if it's a lack of...
	It's maybe a combination of a lack of knowledge and just not really wanting to talk about it, but typically whenever I try to discuss something really serious, he'll give me a piece of advice that I don't find all that useful or just blindingly obvious and then just kind of listen after that.
	Yeah, basically. Yeah.
	Yeah, that's the bromide parenting or the cliche parenting.
	Son, I had some food last night and it came with a fortune cookie.
	I'm going to crack it open right now and tell you what a great father I am.
	He's never called himself a great father, but still, it's like, well, eh.
	I'm sorry, I'm not sure how much to unpack from eh on that sound that you made.
	He's never called himself a great father.
	He thinks that he's an okay father, but I've always been kind of like, well, don't you want to try to be better, maybe?
	I don't know. He's always been more interested in Like, working at a career that he's good at, or talking about politics.
	And, like, you know, I love politics, too.
	I love to talk to him about it with him.
	But it's like he stays...
	He sticks with...
	He sticks on the path already made, basically.
	Like, well-treaded ground.
	And doesn't venture anywhere else.
	Right. And I'm sure that you understand that that's...
	And this came out in the roleplay, right?
	But I'm sure that you understand that that is your relationship to video games.
	Jeez, I didn't really think of that, but you're right.
	You do the stuff that you, you know, you do the stuff you like.
	You know, it's like, I mean, I have this, everybody has this, right?
	Which is, well, I've had a great idea for a show, but I guess I also have to do my taxes, right?
	And of course, you know, I'll get the taxes, right?
	Everybody, you know, we all ride this balance, right?
	And sometimes it is a balance and sometimes it's kind of unbalanced, right?
	And so, yeah, the people who say you're lazy or just work harder, and that's kind of what I got on the roleplay, well, guess what?
	They're being incredibly lazy and they're not working hard at all.
	And that's why I got mad, right?
	Don't give me this... Work harder crap when you're just not even putting any goddamn effort into our conversation.
	But it's kind of funny to me, right?
	I mean, it's tragic, right?
	That so many parents complain, oh, the kids are just into the video games, just play the video games.
	And it's like, well, what are the parents doing?
	They're just sitting on their asses watching TV or whatever they're doing.
	But they're not parenting. So, what the hell are you talking about?
	Oh, my kids are just playing video games.
	It's like, well, why don't you show them what hardwood looks like and figure out why they're playing video games rather than just bitching at them about it.
	Okay, so that's good.
	I appreciate that. And I think I'm sort of getting some background.
	And, you know, I know people get confused about this part of the show sometimes.
	Show like I'm the Rockettes.
	But I know people are going, but I got to really figure out what the roots are of your relationship.
	Yeah. With this girl, right?
	Yeah. So, I can ask questions.
	You could tell me more about the young lady, whatever you prefer.
	Just on topic of parents, could we flip the coin and go over to my mom?
	Absolutely. You want to do another roleplay?
	I haven't met her yet. This one, I'd probably...
	Well, I don't think there's a real point.
	Not much point in the roleplay, because Mom would probably get just really upset and start crying, and then Dad would get mad at me for making Mom cry.
	Ah, yes. The white knight...
	It would be a very short conversation.
	Right, okay. Okay, well, then how would you like to approach your mom as a topic?
	I suppose...
	I mean, I can bring up what I think...
	I can bring up what I find really kind of annoying about her a lot of the time.
	Fair enough. She's very...
	To maybe give some context, I don't know the background of what happens and my parents have never talked about it with any of us kids as far as I know.
	My mom and dad met in high school and dated for five, six, seven years and then got married.
	My mom was kind of grew up without her father because my grandma my grandpa on my mom's side died of a brain tumor when my mom was three so I never met him and because of that my mom basically of course grew up without her dad and apparently again I don't know the details but apparently she had a bit of a Interesting time in her life around...
	Grade 7 to 10...ish.
	And then she met my dad, but I've always found it...
	Why are you making me work so hard?
	She had an interesting time.
	What the hell does that mean? It's hard because I don't know...
	I don't really know much. I've only managed to get like a very little...
	Very little. Basically...
	She went a little boy crazy.
	She didn't have...
	Oh, a little bit like your sister.
	Maybe a little bit, yeah.
	But... Yeah, that's a good point.
	I didn't even think of that. But it's about the same age.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	No coincidences, man.
	No coincidences in the family.
	Yeah. But I find...
	My biggest problem with my mom is I figured, well, if I'm trying to date girls, it would probably make sense to, you know, ask my mom because she was a girl at one point.
	But I could never really get any real...
	I always got, like, the Hallmark card thing where it was like, well, you know, God has made a girl for you and you just need to find her and then you'll date her and you'll wait until marriage to have sex, I'm sure, and then you'll live happily ever after.
	And I was just kind of like...
	Oh, thanks, Mom.
	That's really, really useful.
	Sorry, so just kind of like the same Norman Rockwell, just work hard, son, that your dad came up with, just like useless cliches.
	Even if nothing had changed since they were little, it would still be a useless cliche, but given how much the world has changed, it's worse than that?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	Right. Okay.
	Okay. Has your family sat down to talk about what happened to your sister?
	I guess seven or eight years ago or whatever.
	No, more than that, right? No.
	Ten or twelve years ago. Okay.
	Has it never been a topic? Nobody ever figured out, like, well, what the hell happened?
	We almost lost her to some predator?
	She could have ended up in a ditch or something?
	I discussed it with her.
	I did discuss it with my sister alone, but I've never talked to my parents about it.
	But I did talk to my sister about it, and...
	But no, there's never been, like, a proper...
	I mean, I'm sure she's talked with them about it after the fact, but there's never been, like, a massive...
	Like, there was never a sit-down where y'all talked about it.
	No. Why not, do you think?
	I mean, that seems like a pretty important thing to try and figure out in the family.
	Like, I mean, this could have gone really, really bad for your sister, right?
	I mean, she could have been...
	It could have been a wanted poster in a closed coffin, right?
	Yeah. Yeah. I don't...
	I think it's the same thing with me.
	It's just kind of like, well, we have no idea how to deal with this, so...
	And it doesn't seem to be affecting them right now.
	Like, they seem okay now, so just kind of move on.
	So, help me understand this kind of laziness.
	Because, I mean, I'm not trying to put them in a boomer category, right?
	I mean, who knows? They could be younger than me, right?
	But... This laziness.
	I can't understand this in families.
	Like this just fundamental, oh yeah, we'll just let the kids play video games and we'll nag them every now and then about their chores and we'll make them some food and we'll talk about bullshit and politics and the weather and all of that.
	And we'll go see some movies and it's all just like this coasting along, glidey, empty, shallow crap.
	And nobody ever sort of sits there and says, oh yeah, I'm a little...
	Maybe we've got a problem or two to talk about.
	It's weird, this lazy side of parenting.
	I don't quite fathom it.
	Why on earth would you want to sail through life not having any meaningful conversations?
	It just seems weird to me.
	Yeah, I don't know either.
	I don't get it.
	I think part of the reason I found you was because I basically just went online and was like, okay, this is honestly really, really boring.
	I need to find something to stimulate me.
	Well, this show will certainly do that.
	Sometimes like electroshock therapy, but it will certainly do that.
	Okay, so...
	Your mom.
	What else did you want to say about her?
	I found it...
	I didn't really notice it before when I was younger, but recently I've started to notice it a bit more.
	She gets...
	How do I put it?
	She acts a little bit childish sometimes.
	I'll give you an example.
	About three weeks ago...
	My dad sometimes just...
	Because when my dad grew up, he was the youngest of seven, six, seven kids.
	So it was kind of like, you just got to eat.
	If there's food on the table, you have to eat it.
	So sometimes he just forgets and will eat something of my mom's without asking.
	And he did that about a couple of weeks ago.
	And my mom just...
	She didn't get, it wasn't like a screaming match or anything, but she was, she got like really annoyed and just wouldn't let it go for like a solid half hour, 45 minutes after the fact.
	Like my dad said, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't.
	I'm sorry, I didn't mean to...
	I didn't know it was yours. And she was like, oh my gosh, this always happens.
	You always do this. We've been dealing with this the entire time.
	It's just really annoying.
	I wish you would just ask before you just go randomly eating something that you don't know where it came from.
	I just thought...
	Like, I can't...
	I cannot imagine...
	I cannot fathom my girlfriend talking to me like that.
	Well, think about this, right?
	Time spent on husband who grabs a bite of food.
	Half hour as a family.
	Time spent on a sexual predator targeting and achieving significant success with a 14-year-old girl.
	Zero! Like, what the hell?
	Yeah. And I don't know why people are so terrified of these.
	I guess it's kind of like...
	Like, if you think, you know, if you think you're gaining weight, right?
	I guess maybe this is the closest analogy.
	Like, if you think you're gaining weight, you sit there and you say to yourself, oh, you know, I'll just...
	I don't want to get on the scale because it's just going to depress the hell out of me, right?
	So, you know, I'll just...
	I'll cut back on food, I'll exercise a little more, and I'll, you know, whatever, right?
	I don't want to get on the scale, right?
	And then what happens is you really don't end up eating less or exercising more or whatever.
	You just keep gaining weight, right? And...
	It just kind of creeps up on you bit by bit, right?
	And then you really get terrified of the scale, right?
	I mean, I knew a woman once many years ago.
	She had to get weighed to figure out which go-kart she went on or something like that.
	And I guess she hadn't weighed herself in years.
	And she looked at the number and screamed.
	Like, because, you know, it just crept up, right?
	You just, you know, people replace their clothes.
	You say, oh, I guess this is my size.
	And you say, well, maybe they've changed the sizes around or something.
	And so you just avoid, avoid, avoid.
	And then that just becomes the habit.
	And then the more you avoid, the worse it is.
	Like, you know, nobody ever wants to look at that scale then at that point, right?
	The worse things are, right?
	I mean, I weigh myself precisely once a year when I go for my annual checkup.
	I mean, do my clothes all still fit?
	And I Way about the same as I did when I was a teenager.
	It creeps up a little bit, creeps down a little bit like everyone, I guess.
	But I think when you avoid for so long, A, that just becomes your habit.
	And it's lazy. It's lazy because everybody knows, yeah, you should talk about important things.
	And everybody knows that if your daughter is, and again, I know the kid was even younger than she was, but it doesn't mean he's not dangerous.
	It could mean that he's even more dangerous for all we know, right?
	Because maybe he doesn't fear prison, or maybe he's, you know, obviously got creepy stuff going on in his household, so maybe he lures her over and God knows what happens with his uncles or whatever, right?
	The fact that your daughter was not street-proofed, was not internet-proofed, and had months, months to deal with this, and the fact that your mom hadn't talked about her own boy crazy face, which maybe, as you said, translated into what your sister did.
	So you just avoid avoid, and then A, that becomes a habit, and B, then you have so much that is backed up that you haven't talked about that it's like, hey, you feel like eating this entire buffet?
	I think, no, I really don't.
	I think that would just make me sick. But why did you want to talk about your mom?
	I mean, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but tell me what you wanted to get at from that.
	I just...
	I guess I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something.
	Like, maybe she's fine, but I always just thought, like, this is not normal.
	Especially since I started dating my girlfriend, because I thought...
	It was a time where, like, you know, it happens.
	Like, my girlfriend left.
	We were planning to meet after work to go on a date, and she just forgot because she was exhausted and went home.
	And, you know, she went home, and then she got home and realized, oh, crap, I left.
	I didn't tell Paul.
	I just left Paul. I can't believe it.
	So she texted me and just said, I'm so sorry.
	I completely forgot. And I just said, oh, it's fine.
	Don't worry about it. I contrast that with the way my mom acted three weeks ago, and I just thought, like, this is...
	The way my mom acted is ridiculous.
	I can't imagine getting that upset over something that little.
	Well, I mean, I can tell you what bothered her, if you like.
	All right. So what bothered her was people who don't exist don't like reminders that they don't exist.
	So people who are cliched, people who just robotically repeat things, you know, the people who are triggered, the people who are propagandized, the people who are waddling through life as adult toddlers, you know, the people who just, they don't fundamentally exist.
	As personalities, as thinking for yourself individuals.
	They're, you know, big meaty flesh robots, moist robots, I guess, as Scott Adams would say, right?
	So, they don't exist.
	You know everything that they're going to say.
	You know, and let me sort of give you an example that comes right out of this conversation, Paul, which is, we role-played with your dad, right?
	And we would have role-played with your mom, except you know exactly what she was going to say.
	Now, imagine... Somebody asked you to do a role play between you and me in one of these conversations, right?
	Imagine that. Would you be able to do it?
	Playing me? That would be...
	I mean, I've listened to your show for a long time, but I don't think I could...
	I think I could do okay.
	I don't think I could really nail it down, though.
	Well, you could get maybe the intonations.
	You could... But as far as, like, the insights and guiding the conversation and all that...
	Weird superpower stuff that I bring to bear on these issues.
	You couldn't do it. Because if you could do it, you'd do a show like this, right?
	Yeah, I probably couldn't manage that.
	Right. And the reason...
	And so why do you call me?
	You call me because you don't know what I'm going to say.
	Now... Exactly. You hope it's going to be reasonable, right?
	You hope it's going to be helpful.
	So do I, if that's any consolation, right?
	But you don't know.
	What I'm going to say.
	Now, we did a role play with your dad, you knew exactly what your dad was going to say, right?
	Hello? Yeah, can you hear me?
	Yeah, yeah, I didn't hear you.
	But when we role played with your dad, you knew exactly what your dad was going to say, right?
	Yeah. Okay, so you call me because you don't know what I'm going to say, but you do know that it's going to be incredibly helpful.
	Right? So that's the difference.
	And listen, I mean, my gosh, so many people in life, so many people in life, you know exactly what they're going to say.
	And this is why your family never talks about anything.
	This is why you don't bring things up with your parents.
	Because you know exactly what What they're going to say.
	That's about the saddest thing in the world.
	Do you know exactly what they're going to say?
	So if somebody is avoidant and takes the easy path and doesn't show up to their own life and is a moist robot, has no free will, no real humanity.
	I mean, of course, I know they're human beings.
	When I say they don't exist, they don't exist as self-thinking individuals.
	They are cliches.
	You know what they are?
	They're NPCs.
	They're scripts, so to speak, right?
	And it's sort of like, you know, if you ever play Skyrim...
	You've played video games. You haven't played Skyrim?
	Oh, yeah. Okay, so...
	Oh, yeah. Like everybody who's played, right?
	Greatest game, in my view, ever.
	But in Skyrim, the responses are all programmed, right?
	I mean, you've got a little wheel of things you can say, a little option.
	You want to say... One, two, three, or four, and you just go down through these scripts of what people say, right?
	It's the same thing with Blades on iOS, you know, it's just a fun little diversion or whatever, but it's input-output.
	Nobody sits there and says, maybe I could have a great debate with the Nord in Skyrim, right?
	Because it's all pre-programmed responses, right?
	And that's kind of what... Most people are in this world.
	They're just robots programmed by those in power to attack those who think for themselves.
	It's just this horde army of NPCs that take down anybody who asks questions outside of the programming, right?
	That's kind of the reality, right?
	It's like National Pulse.
	Raheem Kassam has just taken down from Twitter today and all that.
	And Steve Bannon gone from his war room pandemic, gone from Twitter, I think gone from YouTube.
	Now, I don't think it was particularly wise or good or right to start talking about violence against bureaucrats.
	But so your mom has deep down, I'm guessing, a part of her that knows she's like not there.
	She's not there. She's not shown up to her own life.
	She has not seized the hot rock of identity and thought and figured out how to hold it.
	It's uncomfortable. And so, when your father takes something from her plate, he's acting as if she's not even there.
	Right? Yeah.
	This food is abandoned.
	It belongs to no one. And she gets mad at that because deep down, she's not there.
	And she gets mad because he's acting like she's not there.
	Like she doesn't exist.
	Like the food is abandoned and unowned.
	And why does it hit her so hard?
	Because it's kind of the truth of this non-existence.
	That's my guess. I'm not sure what you think.
	I mean...
	I think you're probably right on that, at least partially.
	I mean, it's not... Again, I'm going to fall into the cliche of, like, I feel like I'm painting my parents in a really, really bad light.
	There are bad things about them, but...
	Yeah. I do think you're right, especially because my mom was the youngest significantly.
	Like, she was kind of an accident.
	Like, my grandma had her when she was, like...
	My grandma had my mom when she was around 40, 41.
	It was kind of just like a, oh, I guess we have another one.
	Like, her... Her next older sibling was like four or five years older than she was.
	How long have you listened to this show?
	Five or six years now.
	Trick question. It's been an hour and 40 minutes.
	I'm kidding. So you said five or six years?
	Now, quick question, Paul.
	When you were thinking of doing this show, I guess when James contacted you, you probably thought of a Kind of quote mistakes that people make in these conversations.
	Like you're like, I really shouldn't joke about traumatic things, right?
	Yeah. Now, despite your very, very best intentions, and by the way, great job in this conversation, great job in the role play, great job in everything that you're doing.
	It's fantastic. But here's what's very instructive.
	So I did not say your parents, I've never once said they're bad people.
	I said, there's hypocrisy on your dad's side, and there damn well is, if he's blaming you for being lazy, but he's taken the easiest possible path in parenting and avoiding doing anything that's difficult and therefore helpful at the expense of years of crippling depression for you.
	But no, I didn't call them bad people.
	And then what happened was, you said, oh, I feel like I'm painting my parents in a bad light, right?
	And then what happened was, you started to manufacture the domino history excuses for your mom, right?
	I did. My mom had her when she was 40, 41 earlier.
	Her dad died of brain cancer when she was young and she was an accident, right?
	You understand that that's participating in her non-existence to say, well, my gosh, she's just a shadow cast by history she never chose.
	You're actually saying, well, I'm going to defend my mom against accusations that she doesn't exist by saying that she doesn't exist and she's merely a product of her history with no free will.
	Worst defense ever.
	I'm sorry. I don't mean to laugh because it's not funny, but it's a little ironic when you think about it, right?
	Yeah, it's hard, but I was genuinely thinking like the whole time.
	I was like, okay, I know I'm going to have the instinct to defend my parents, but I'm going to try to not.
	No, but you damned her.
	You damned her. Because I say, well, you know, my theory is that she doesn't exist.
	It's like, well, I'll show you non-existence.
	She's completely the last shadow cast by a falling domino she had no control over in her life.
	That's my defense against the non-existence of my mom, is to tell you that she's merely a product of accidental history and has never made a damn decision in her life.
	It's really not a defense, right?
	Yeah. And I can't let people let their parents off the hook.
	Not because you can't do anything back about what happened to you as a child, but I sure as hell can rail like hell against the idea that we're products of our history.
	Because every excuse you make for your parents, you also make A, for yourself, and B, for your girlfriend.
	Right? Yep.
	So you... Had a date.
	Tell me a little bit more about the date you had that she missed.
	Sorry, that sounds like I'm ordering you, but please, if you could.
	Well, it was basically just, we were co-workers, and we agreed, like, our shifts ended at about the same time, so we decided, and it wasn't very late, so we just thought, like, why don't we just go out for coffee after work, just, because it was kind of early on in the relationship.
	And so I went out to my car and just waited for half an hour for her to finish and she left and she was just absolutely exhausted and drove home.
	Then when she got home, she realized, oh my gosh, I forgot about my date with Paul.
	So she immediately texted me and just said, I am so sorry.
	I completely forgot.
	I'm really so sorry.
	I texted her back and just said, no, it's fine.
	It's fine. Don't worry about it.
	And then I went home. And was that what you were feeling?
	I mean, it's an odd thing to text.
	Again, I'm not... I never really dated in the whole texting thing, and I don't really like to text at all.
	Yeah, well, it's...
	What was your... Texting is really, really common nowadays, so I try...
	Hang on, sorry, but texting, see, no emotional things can be done over text.
	Nothing. Right, so I guess why not give you a call?
	Yeah, that's a fair point.
	But I didn't think about it.
	I didn't think much of it.
	I just texted. The reason I brought it up was just to compare it to, like, if it was, say, if I acted like my mom, I would have been, like, just constantly nagging and being like, well, this is really annoying, like, this is really inconvenient, I can't believe this.
	I guess I'm going to go home, and I guess I'll talk to you later.
	Fine. Don't talk to me for half an hour, kind of thing.
	But I didn't.
	I just thought, well, she made a mistake.
	It's not a huge deal.
	Of course. Yeah, no, absolutely.
	She made a mistake, and that's obviously, you know, that happens in relationships, and that's not some of my question.
	I guess, I mean, you had a very interesting phenomenon there, which is, so how long was it between making the date and her forgetting it?
	Maybe about two hours.
	Yeah, that's...
	That's odd.
	That's odd. Again, not nefarious, not bad, or not like she did anything wrong, so to speak, but that's a pretty short time to forget about a date.
	I suppose. And here's the thing.
	So you can talk to people about this kind of stuff.
	Without being your mom.
	Because if your only choice is to either nag people or not say anything, well, that's not really much of a choice, is it?
	Yeah. You say, well, I'm curious about this, right?
	Because, you know, the three most important words in any relationship that's not business or whatever.
	The three most important words are not, I love you, but tell me more.
	What a wonderful opportunity to try and figure out what the heck happened.
	You say, I'm not mad, but I'm a little baffled and kind of curious.
	She's... My girlfriend is a very...
	How do I put it?
	She can be a little bit...
	I don't want to call it...
	It's not a criticism. It's nothing nefarious about it.
	She can be a little bit scatterbrained.
	She's like constantly thinking like, okay, I need to do this, and then I need to go and do that, and then I need to go do that, like just constantly kicking.
	And sometimes because of that, things get jumbled.
	Like, her... How do I put it?
	No, you said... Her brain is constantly...
	Sorry, I just didn't understand the word. She said she's constantly picking, kicking, ticking?
	I didn't know what the word was. Ticking. Like, the analogy I thought was like a clock constantly ticking away and, like, think, like, just always, always moving.
	Like, gears always shifting, always thinking about the next thing that she needs to do kind of thing.
	Sometimes. When she gets...
	At the time, she was still in school, so she was under a bit of stress, and I've noticed that when she's under stress, sometimes she gets a little bit too...
	She starts thinking about things a lot and then forgets things.
	Now, see, that is a really interesting conversation to have with someone, right?
	Yeah. I mean, that's really fascinating, right?
	Because it's got to be frustrating for her.
	She's got to be letting people down a lot, right?
	Not a lot, but it happens once in a while.
	Well, you said scatterbrained, right?
	Maybe it's a bit too...
	I don't know how to put it.
	It's only when she's under a lot of...
	It was also, just from our context, we both worked in retail and it was the holiday season, which is obviously a lot of...
	I've worked in retail too. I mean, it's brutal.
	Yeah, it's pretty brutal and it is exhausting.
	Especially now with this mask shit.
	I mean, it's horrible, right?
	Yeah, I'm glad I quit before.
	I quit, actually, my retail job right when that broke out because I was like...
	I had a health condition and I was trying to quit anyway, so I was just like, no, I'm out.
	Right, right. Okay. So what do you know about her family?
	When I first...
	Could we quickly just rewind?
	I'd like to maybe give some context for how we actually started dating.
	I think that's important. Hey man, it's your convo.
	Lead me by the nose.
	I'll follow. Alright.
	So, for a bit of context, I ran into the rather infamous friend zone a lot when I tried dating in high school and college.
	Where, you know, I would talk to a girl and befriend them because my mom always told me, like, well, you need to be friends with the girl first, and then after, like, a month or two, or...
	Actually, she never gave me a time period.
	It was just like, just be friends with her, and then eventually you can turn that into a relationship.
	So, and, you know, I thought, well, she's my mom.
	She must know what she's talking about, right?
	So I would try that, and then, of course...
	That didn't work. Now, looking back, I know the reasons for that was mostly because I was not ready for a relationship at all.
	But I basically adopted the idea of, if I like a girl, I should just be direct about that and upfront with them.
	Sorry to interrupt you.
	I do apologize. I just wanted to tweak your language, potentially.
	Yep. So, you said you weren't prepared for a relationship?
	Yes. No, I'm so sorry.
	You said you weren't ready for a relationship.
	I said I wasn't ready.
	Yeah, you said you weren't ready. That's not true.
	You were totally ready for a relationship.
	When your body was saying, let's have a relationship, your hormones are saying, let's have a relationship, right?
	So you were ready, you just weren't prepared for a relationship.
	That's a good point, yeah.
	Sorry, I faffed that one up.
	I won't edit it afterwards, but it's really important.
	You were totally ready for a relationship, but you had been unprepared by parenting and culture and blah, blah, blah.
	Okay, so sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, so my attitude was, well, in order to just prevent, like, heartbreak constantly, where you try to, you know, just waste, like, a whole year trying to chase after a girl you like, only for her to go after someone else, I decided, okay, screw this. If I meet a girl and I like her, I'll wait a couple weeks, but then after that, if I'm really interested, I'll just say, look, do you want to go out?
	And if she says no, then don't talk to her again, basically.
	Yeah, I get all of that.
	Do you mind if I... I'm so sorry.
	If you're in the middle of saying something, I'm going to just slap myself on the face.
	No, no, go ahead. Because I don't want to spoil your train of thought.
	No, go ahead. I can wait.
	Okay, are you ready for the greatest dating advice in the history of the universe?
	I am ready. Okay, so this is how to be both prepared and ready, because you're ready, right?
	Okay, here's how to not get into the friend zone.
	Are you ready? Are you steady?
	Are you sitting down? Okay, this is going to be a massive shot of testosterone straight to the nads, and this is going to solve...
	Everybody who listens to this, this is going to solve all of your friend zone problems.
	Ever, ever, ever. Okay, so you got to think about female evolution if you want to know what makes women tick and what attracts women.
	So, a woman needs resources.
	Now, Throughout most of human history, my friend, throughout most of human evolution, did a man get resources by being nice?
	Uh, the opposite, actually.
	Yeah, the answer to that question is, fuck no.
	Fuck no. Every time a man got resources, he pissed someone else off, right?
	He pissed off the man he was competing for those resources.
	He pissed off the animal he killed to get those resources.
	He pissed off whoever else wanted to stake that land.
	So nice, you know, there was an old saying when I was a kid, probably still around, nice guys finish last.
	You ever hear of that one?
	Yep. Right.
	Well, it's true. So a woman needs to know, needs to know, deep down in her ovaries, She needs to know that you can handle the hell out of being disliked.
	Because if you can't be disliked, man, you can't provide.
	If you can't be disliked, you can't provide.
	So you have to be dangerous to someone out there And the more people you're dangerous to, within reason, the better.
	If you can't handle being disliked, and sometimes disliked enormously, you're always going to end up in the friend zone.
	Because a woman sees nice, and she sees a guy who has no killer instinct to compete, and therefore can't provide.
	Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely.
	Now, you don't want her to dislike you, right?
	So that's not...
	But you know this cliche of the girls who go after the bad boys?
	Well, what's the characteristic?
	What's one characteristic of a bad boy?
	He doesn't mind being disliked.
	I mean, if you go to the extreme end of the spectrum, you just look at criminals.
	Well, yeah, criminals, their whole job is to be disliked, right?
	I mean, you go mug someone, and certainly the guy who's giving you his wallet because you've got a gun to his ribs doesn't want to give you his damn wallet.
	So criminals are at the extreme end of being willing to be disliked.
	And if you look at a lot of romantic heroes, one thing that characterizes them considerably is that other people don't like them.
	I mean, look at Christian Grey. All of his ex-girlfriends are like crazy-ass stalkers, right?
	And he's willing to be disliked.
	Because every resource you get...
	Now, again, we're talking evolution, not the magic productivity of capitalism or anything.
	But every resource you get is taken from something else.
	I mean, imagine Jeff Bezos, right?
	Not that we have to imagine him.
	He's here. But Jeff Bezos, in order to make Amazon successful, how many other businesses...
	Did he put out a business? Thousands, I imagine.
	You've got to be willing to go out and grab the world and piss people off in order to be attractive to women because getting your share or creating your share or acquiring your share is annoying as hell to other people.
	Now, I mean, look at this show.
	I hear occasionally that it may have annoyed some people over the course of its decade-and-a-half-long tenure, right?
	Well, why? Well, because I harm the interests of a wide variety of people.
	I harm the interests of child abusers.
	And some of those child abusers could still go to prison for what they did, and they're not very happy at that particular prospect, obviously, right?
	The mainstream media.
	Why? Because I got more eyeballs than, you know, back in the heyday, right?
	I got more eyeballs than some mainstream media outlets.
	Communists, socialists, politicos, hypocrites, you know, people bad at arguing.
	Who wants stuff? Single moms.
	I mean, I really have perhaps cast too wide a net in everyone that I have annoyed over time, right?
	So, The willingness to be disliked.
	Now, I mean, for a good cause.
	I didn't just go out and slap people in the face and have them dislike you.
	But the willingness to be disliked is essential.
	And, of course, the woman wants you to be nice to her and nice to her children.
	But she doesn't want you to be nice to the world.
	My God, that's terrible.
	That's terrible for her.
	I mean, that dries up the vajayjay quicker than a sandstorm.
	Boy, there's a collision of images that should never occur.
	And so preparing to be attractive to women is going out there, carving your chunk of the world and saying to people who didn't get it, oh, too bad.
	And it's a bit of a male thing.
	So I'll tell you, this is a little speech I had, a little convo I had with my daughter.
	Just tonight, actually. While we're having dinner before the show.
	She is... Oh my gosh, she's incredible.
	So she is creating these movies.
	I mentioned this before. She uses this program.
	And she creates these animations.
	She's got these scripts.
	And some of these movies are well north of an hour long.
	And there, she's done a murder mystery with all the clues scattered about.
	Oh, God, it's incredible stuff.
	It's beautiful what she's making.
	And funny. And very, very funny.
	And moving.
	And powerful. And like, ah, just what a storyteller.
	I guess I can guess where she might get some of that from.
	But anyway. So she said...
	So she uses this program called Gacha Life to create...
	Well, she actually uses a combination of seven different programs to produce the final movies, which are really well animated, and she does her own backgrounds, and she creates animals, and she animates them, and it's just amazing, amazing stuff.
	We've been doing this, like...
	Verbal Dungeons and Dragons for five or six years, so she's had exposure to quite a number of stories over that time.
	Anyway, so she works really, really hard to make these animations, and they're really good, because just out of curiosity, of course, I had a look at Gatch Life.
	It's a whole subculture out there on the tube of views and all that, and her animations are...
	Really good. Really.
	Like she does fight scene animations, like frame by frame.
	Just incredible stuff. Really amazing stuff.
	Anyway, the point of all of this, other than rank, praise, and pride, and all of that, is that she sat at dinner.
	She said, you know, if I ever publish these movies, I'm going to feel really bad.
	And I said, oh, why? And she said, well, because I think...
	I think that the other people who create these movies are going to look at my animations.
	They're going to feel really bad about their own animations.
	And I said, that is very nice of you and terrible.
	It's terrible. I said, you know, I understand where you're coming from and I appreciate that sensitivity.
	But no, if you're much better at animation, Then other people out there, then they should know that.
	So they can either up their game or start doing something else.
	And then I told her the story of William Hung, right?
	That's a guy who...
	He was a famously bad contestant for American Idol, I think it was.
	He did a version of Shebangs that was, I mean, awful.
	Like, comically bad.
	It was a Ricky Martin song?
	Anyway, so... So he became sort of a meme way back in the early days of that stuff.
	And he now, if I remember rightly, he's now become a crime scene investigator, right?
	And I said, I played her the video, and she's like, oh man, he's terrible.
	I'm like, yeah. Yes, he is.
	And if they had pretended that he wasn't terrible...
	Then the couple of hundred criminals that he helped to catch over the course of his career, or will help to catch, would be out free, right?
	Roaming free. So it's good that they said, sorry, you're bad, right?
	And this is what they say on these shows, right?
	Somebody comes on as really bad, some audition.
	And what they say is, you know, dog, there may be something you're great at in the world.
	I'm sure there is, but this ain't it.
	Dog, or whatever, right?
	Go do something else, right? And I said, imagine if Billie Eilish, right?
	Imagine if Billie Eilish had a live show and didn't sing so well because she didn't want to make you feel bad about your singing.
	My daughter doesn't have a great singing voice, but she likes to sing.
	And I said, would you want her to not sing that well so that you didn't feel so bad about your singing?
	And she's like, God, no. I'm like, exactly.
	Exactly. Exactly. You want to put your very best efforts out there in the world so that other people, if they can't compete, can be released to do something else with their lives that's going to be better for them, right? I mean, I was in my 30s when I finally hit my stride about what it is I want to do with this show.
	Now, of course, the technology wasn't there, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
	But... You want to put your very best work out there.
	Yeah, it's going to annoy people, but it's going to be better for them in the long run.
	You know, I remember having dreams many years ago that I was the lead singer for Queen.
	We will rock you, right?
	I mean, I was just out there foot stomping, and I would be a great lead singer.
	I don't have the voice for it, but I would be a great lead singer because I love working the crowd, and you can see this in my speeches and all that, right?
	And... But then, who did they get?
	They got, ooh, the old singer for free.
	Anyway, so they toured with one guy, I can't remember his name, and then they toured with Adam Lambert, who won, I think he won or came in second on American Idol.
	Now, you wouldn't want Adam Lambert to not sing beautifully.
	And man, you've got to go watch this guy.
	I think it was after the Pulse Club singing, he did a live version of Who Wants to Live Forever.
	You can find that on YouTube.
	That's incredible. That guy's got quite the set of pipes.
	Not as good as Freddie's, in my humble opinion, but just an amazing singer.
	So you put out your best?
	Now, I'm pretty sure Adam Lambert didn't say, well, there's this podcaster in Canada who would love to be the lead singer to Queen...
	And I guess I'll just do a bad audition because I don't want him to feel bad.
	It's like, no, because I'm never going to be the lead singer of Queen.
	Never going to happen, right? And given that I do enjoy hearing the band, I went to see them the last time they toured with Adam Lambert.
	And if the choice is no Queen or Queen with Adam Lambert, because the choice is never Queen with Steph, right?
	That's never the choice. And so, yeah, he should go out and do his very, very best work.
	So that I... Can focus on a philosophy podcast rather than failing to be the lead singer of a band, right?
	So, that's important.
	So, in order to attract...
	Oh, one last thing I would say.
	So, there's a hole, right?
	There's a hole that's opened up since I got kicked off sort of the major social media platforms, right?
	There's a hole that's opened up.
	Philosophy... Science, you know, whatever you want to call it.
	Rigorous moral analysis of world events.
	There's a huge market that's opened up.
	But hey, nobody as far as I know is stepping up.
	Now, you can...
	Somebody is posting my videos.
	I don't know who. Somebody's posting my videos on YouTube.
	The channel's called Molyneux Resurrected.
	Good for them. Good for them.
	So you can follow that if you want.
	But... Nobody's stepping into that void because it's a tough thing to do.
	So if you think about all of the people whose interests, philosophy, not me individually, they don't care about me, they only care about how philosophy harms their interests, right?
	So, you know, the media, the academics, the Marxists, the socialists, the communists, the fascists, all the Nazis, all of the people are harmed by rational analysis of the world and moral philosophy and so on.
	And so, yeah, pissed people off.
	Pissed people off. Because I worked so incredibly hard for so many years to prevent the race war that the communists want.
	Well, you know, I got kicked off YouTube when I did a great show with a black and a white cop where we had a lot of fun and talked about more effective policing and I made a couple of jokes and they're really a great time, right?
	So I can't have that.
	I can't have those kind of blacks and whites getting along together and solving problems in a rational and positive way.
	I can't have any of that because, right, so even the fact that I worked so hard to reduce and diffuse racial conflicts in the world, which was my major aim there for a couple of years off and on, well, for the people who want the race war, well, I'm interfering with their interests, right?
	So I've got to Got to eat me off, right?
	So they can have their path, right?
	And, you know, that's kind of how that plays out.
	So if you want to be attractive to a woman, you have to have pissed people off in the world, right?
	And it's something I didn't really realize when I was younger, nearly as much, right?
	So when I was, I guess, a little younger than you, when I was in college, I was engaged in constant battle with the communists, right?
	And the socialists and the collectivists and all of that.
	And even the Platonists.
	A lot of battle. And I was on the debating team and I would trounce people, as you can imagine, fairly good at debating even back then.
	And the fact that I was willing to take on professors, to take on fellow students, to take on whoever, right?
	Even when guest speakers would come, I'd stand up and I'd ask them demanding questions and all of that.
	Just kind of an in-your-face, you know, with good cause.
	Good cause, important stuff to talk about.
	And I never wanted for any dates.
	Now, I mean, I was a good-looking kid and all that, so that's part of it, but it's not all of it.
	I never wanted for dates.
	Because women liked it deep down that I was willing to stand up, speak loudly, And be disliked.
	That's what they're looking for. And if you act in a way, forget the women, just stand up for the truth, stand up for what's right, you know, again, within reason, within a sort of safe-ish kind of context, right?
	The mean of courage is important.
	You don't want to go to excess and self-destruct.
	But that's how to stay out of the frenzy.
	See, your mom is telling you, oh, you've got to be nice.
	The single moms are out there, oh, you've got to be nice.
	It's like, well, did the single moms marry someone who was nice?
	No. They married someone who was willing to be disliked.
	Unfortunately, women have not been trained anymore.
	They used to be. They've not been trained anymore.
	On the basic fact that they want a man who's willing to be disliked by the world in the competition for resources, unfortunately women ended up choosing men who are willing to be disliked by their own children for abandoning them, or having an affair, or being a drunk, or whatever, right?
	But the willingness to be disliked is catnip to women.
	It's ambrosia to women.
	And it shows the kind of strength that they need so that if it's between you and some other guy for the last chicken in the village, you're coming home with that chicken and he's not.
	That's what they need deep down.
	So I hope that helps. Does that sort of make sense?
	Makes sense, yeah. And my guess is, so when you say, you had a pause, I've got to rush in.
	So when you say to her, oh no, it's fine if you forgot about me.
	And then she says to you, you know, I don't know if I can commit to you.
	That's basically what she's saying, right?
	Relationships don't work out in the long run.
	Isn't that part of your major issues while you're calling in, right?
	You don't know how committed she is to you, right?
	It's much less of a problem recently, but maybe part of that is she started working a lot more, and I did bring that up.
	I basically... I texted her and said, okay, look, we need to talk, and then I called her and said, okay, look, I understand work's important, but you're not seeing me nearly as much as you should be, and it's really kind of...
	It's really annoying me, so...
	I appreciate you're working, but I need you to see me more often.
	And she said, okay, I totally understand.
	I'm sorry. I'll make more time for you than she did, which was helpful.
	Okay, so maybe I've missed in there.
	So what's the major issue? We're trying to whack them all here.
	Is it the Christian thing? It's mostly the Christian thing.
	The... The commitment thing was more of an issue very early on, but I'm not sure how much of that was just...
	It might help if I give more context with how we started dating and what kind of a person she is.
	Okay, now we're cruising up on two hours here, so I can't do too much backstory, but go for it.
	So I'll just run through it quickly.
	Basically, we met at work.
	We kind of liked each other for a while.
	Then I asked her out.
	At one time, and she said, I really like you, but I don't think I'm ready for a relationship yet.
	And I said, okay, I think that's wise.
	If you don't think you're ready, I understand.
	And she appreciated that.
	So anyway, we kept talking at work and texted outside of work.
	And then a couple months later, I asked her again, and she said yes.
	And have you slept together?
	It's been difficult, but no.
	I mean, I am a Christian and I am trying to hold to that principle.
	It's hard because I'm 25.
	Well, aren't you supposed to be dating a Christian?
	That is a good point. That is a fair point.
	I mean, I'm a Christian so I can go without sex, that's one thing, but I'm a Christian and I'm marrying a woman who's not a Christian or, sorry, dating a woman or interested in a woman.
	No, I assume you want...
	That is a good point.
	It's difficult, like, the problem is I live out in the middle of nowhere so there's not very many girls around my age.
	But still, that is a fair point.
	And how do you answer that fair point?
	I'm not sure. I guess what are you asking?
	Well, I guess my basic question is, why did you ask her out?
	What was attractive to you?
	Well, she's cute.
	That's one thing.
	She is very cute.
	I also appreciated that she was...
	She's a nice...
	She's a really nice girl. She's a very caring girl.
	I'm trying to think of what else...
	Oh, man, that's brutal.
	This is hard.
	I'm not good with the feeling stuff.
	Oh, man. This is brutal.
	So she's cute.
	And caring? Caring and patient, I'd say.
	Okay, what are her moral virtues, my friend the Christian?
	Well... Because you know cute comes from Satan, right?
	So I'm just asking.
	Yes. Temptation, right?
	Yes. But what are her moral virtues?
	She's patient. That's a virtue.
	She works a lot with...
	It's such a stereotype.
	She works in healthcare and she's very patient with the people she works with, which is good.
	Yeah. This is hard.
	I really can't think of anything else.
	This is actually kind of sad.
	Right. Take sex off the table.
	Take sex off the table.
	Imagine she was a guy or a nun or married or whatever, right?
	Yep. No possibility of sex at all.
	Is she your friend? I would say casual friend, and probably not a very long-term one.
	So a flyby acquaintance?
	Yeah, kind of.
	Well, that's your answer. Well, that's your answer.
	You're there for where she ain't there.
	The whole. I don't know if I agree.
	It's just... No, no, you just told me that.
	Hang on. I mean, listen, we can revise that.
	I'm not trying to catch you out or anything here.
	But without sexual access, she's like maybe an acquaintance for a little while.
	That's not anything to build a life on.
	You know that, right? A man cannot build his house on sand, right?
	This is true. I really, really, really care about her a lot.
	And I'm trying to think...
	No, you don't. No, you don't.
	I'm so sorry to be annoying and lecture you.
	And oh my God. And again, you can change anything that you said, right?
	But no, you don't.
	Because if without sexual access, she's barely an acquaintance, Then you're basically saying to me, I really, really, really care about this person I barely have as an acquaintance in my life.
	If you really care about this person, they'll be more than an acquaintance.
	Yeah. You may very well have been dicknapped.
	You might be right. I'll have to rethink this.
	And I'm getting this more from her than from you.
	Because I don't think she trusts you very much.
	Which I can completely understand.
	Not because you're an untrustworthy fellow in general.
	But because you are a Christian.
	And you're dating a woman who has no intentions of becoming a Christian.
	So how could you really be trusted?
	How much do your values...
	I mean, listen, let's take an extreme example, right?
	Imagine it came out that my wife was a communist.
	That would be...
	A little bit of a surprise?
	Yeah, you can say that again.
	Well, what would you say to me if you suddenly found out?
	I don't know, there's some picture of my wife marching with communists or even Bernie Sanders or something, right?
	What would you say to me?
	What happened? I think you'd say more than that.
	What happened? Why would you marry someone who is so diametrically opposed, like the complete opposite of you morally?
	Like, are you insane? No, I'd say.
	She's cute. I don't...
	I don't want to paint her in a bad light.
	She's... She's intelligent and she's very kind, but I do see...
	She's not hostile to religion at all.
	She did go to church when she was younger.
	It's more just she's kind of fallen off, but...
	And I'm making excuses, Archie.
	Yeah, no, no, I get it.
	Listen, and I sympathize.
	I really, really, really sympathize.
	And listen, if it's any consolation, I was older than you when I still was dating women not aligned with my values or rational values or good values.
	So I say this as a battle-scarred veteran of compromise too much.
	So I really sympathize and...
	All of that, but...
	And I had a...
	Oof. Way back in the day.
	Oh my gosh. So...
	There was this girl...
	I dated in my...
	I didn't quite date her.
	Occasionally we would hold hands.
	We went to see shows together. We hung out a lot together.
	She used to make this wonderful bagel with...
	Cream cheese, salmon, and capers.
	Oh my gosh. It was so good.
	And... She was a Christian, and I was not, obviously.
	And she said, that's all right.
	She said, look, my mother's a Christian.
	My father's not. We go to church.
	He sleeps in on Sundays.
	It's no big deal. Nice girl.
	A nice girl. And...
	That offer was tempting.
	It was tempting. It's very smart.
	And wise in many ways.
	Good sense of humor. But the value gap was too large.
	And I'm sure that there are very nice earthy Christian women, but a lot of them, in my experience, have been a bit ethereal, a bit otherworldly in a way.
	And that's, I mean, I'm sort of a meaty empiricist kind of guy.
	So some of it is more in the realm of aesthetics, but still important.
	Anyway, so that's...
	Yeah, it's tempting. It's really tempting.
	But you don't have a plan.
	Like, as far as preparedness goes, right?
	What's the plan? Are you going to give up on being a Christian?
	I hope not. I hope not.
	Is she going to become a Christian?
	Or regain the faith?
	I hope so, but if not, then that's a deal-breaker.
	Does she know that?
	She does. Oh.
	I don't think you mentioned that in the message.
	Pretty sure you didn't. Let me check the message here.
	No, you're right. I'm not mad or anything.
	I just want to check my own memory here.
	Let me just have a wee look at this little message-y thing.
	I've told her that I want to get married and have kids one day, and she agrees that that is a goal of hers as well.
	I get that. I remember that.
	No, I remember all of that.
	Stupid thing went open right now.
	James, if you're around, sorry to startle you.
	Because when you say, oh, you know, she's like, well, relationships sometimes don't work out in the long run.
	I didn't know that she had this literal sword of Damocles hanging over her head.
	Convert or be gone, right?
	I haven't said it that explicitly, but I have...
	Okay, let me rephrase this.
	I haven't explicitly said that, but I have said basically...
	How do I put it? I haven't explicitly said it, but I have tried strongly...
	I've tried bringing up before conversations about religion.
	I have asked her, what do your grandparents who are Christians think about this kind of thing?
	And I did say, I think it's important to share values as far as...
	I think it's important to agree on religion if you're going to raise kids together.
	And... Yeah...
	All right, so it's just completely unrelated, of course.
	What are your thoughts on the commandment to not bear false witness?
	It's a very important commandment, and I'm maybe not following it.
	I'm just curious how important you think it is.
	Do you think it's like an optional one?
	Like maybe, or unless you're horny, or unless she's cute, or like...
	Where does it rank in your hierarchy of...
	It's a very, well, I would like to think highly, but, you know, there's what I say and then there's what I actually need to practice.
	Which, as you know, is a huge issue for all of us.
	Like, everybody who's got a moral standard.
	It's a huge... So please...
	I mean, I know I'm being a bit maybe naggy, annoying, churlish or whatever, but I suffer from exactly the same issues even now.
	So we all have our ideals and then we have our flesh, right?
	We have our spirit and our absolutes and we have our faulty, sweaty, horny, failing flesh, right?
	I mean, you wouldn't believe what kind of squash I can play in my mind.
	I try and do that over 50, I'm going to rip a leg off, right?
	So she doesn't know that this is a deal-breaker, except, of course, she does, deep down.
	Which is why she says, well, you know, relationships often don't work out, right?
	Yeah. And how cute are you?
	I'm... I know she kind of has the thing for kind of the intellectual look somewhat, and I'm...
	Yeah, I'm really good looking.
	Right. So you have...
	The Vanity Union, a little bit, right?
	Yeah, a little bit, definitely.
	You guys must look fabulous together.
	Yeah. Right.
	Not... Not super godly.
	If I remember my theology correctly.
	Yeah, you're correct.
	You know, looks, good looks, they are, as you know, a blessing and a curse, right?
	A blessing and a curse.
	They'll open doors for you, for sure, right?
	And you'll probably end up making more money.
	I mean, good-looking people make more money.
	They get more positive responses in society, right?
	But, you know, it's not earned.
	You know, I'm sure you take care of yourself and exercise and you probably have a nice haircut.
	Now, we get all of that. But, you know, lots of people do that and don't end up very good looking, right?
	Or as Scott Adams says, you know, I have a face for radio.
	So, but it's a little bit of a curse as well because it leads you to these kinds of situations, right?
	Look, if she is not, as you say, and if she's not Christian, then she doesn't believe in God.
	But she's willing to overlook that in you because you're handsome.
	And she doesn't believe in the God that is the source of your identity, ethics, virtues, morals, culture, society, history, and life, and soul, and chance of eternity.
	Well, you get eternity either way, right?
	Hopefully a good eternity. But you'll toss that aside, right?
	Because... She's cute.
	And that's the flesh, right?
	Isn't that the flesh that tempts us all?
	Whether we're Christian or no.
	The monkey claws at us all.
	The monkey brain, the reptile brain, the meaty, our selected, make more of us no matter what, no matter how, no matter why.
	That's what claws it us all.
	And there's always a big, oh, the mind-body dichotomy is silly.
	No, it's real. No, it's real.
	We have our abstract, ideal, platonic sense, and we have the monkey who fucks.
	It's a bit of a gap. It's a bit of a gap sometimes between these two.
	And they're both part of us.
	I mean, you can't reject the flesh because the flesh...
	is how your soul gets around and really why your soul is here is to traverse this veil of tears ruled by Satan and come out hopefully without too much tarnishing on the other end, right?
	But there's nothing I'm telling you here that is not specifically warned about in the Bible, right?
	The devil is in the flesh.
	The temptation of sexuality is Outside of a Christian marriage is the devil's work, right?
	And I think it's unfair.
	Men can listen.
	I did this in my school assembly once.
	I told this joke up on the stage, right?
	And there's two guys, no, three guys standing on top of the CN Tower.
	And one guy turns to the other and says, you know, this is the weirdest thing up here.
	You can actually jump off.
	This is crazy. You can jump off this tower and the winds, the updrafts, will actually swirl you around and put you right back up here on the top.
	And the guy says, oh, come on, that's bullshit.
	That's no way. No way. The guy says, okay, check this out, right?
	He jumps off and lo and behold, the wind swirls him around twice and then drops him right back on his feet at the top.
	And he says, I don't know why it happens.
	I don't know why it does this. I don't know, but it does.
	It's the coolest thing. And the guy's like, well, if it works for you, right?
	And he jumps, and he falls to his death.
	And the third guy goes to the first guy and says, you know, Superman, sometimes you can be a real jerk.
	What I mean by that is, A man can survive heartbreak so much better than a woman.
	I did not understand this when I was young.
	And I have some remorse.
	Not guilt, because nobody told me.
	I didn't know. In fact, it was portrayed as quite the opposite, that women could, you know, date and have make-ups and break-ups and sleep around just as much as men did, and it was no different, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
	So I don't feel any guilt about it, because...
	I literally was counter-instructed and you can't invent everything for yourself from scratch when you're a kid, right?
	But, you know, this is just for the men out there.
	I mean, if you want a continuation of your culture, stop dating incompatible women.
	Because you'll sail on and you'll have your life and you'll get married eventually to someone and And you'll be like, hey, you know, I just jumped off the CN Tower and I just rode around.
	Put me right back where I started.
	CN Tower being, of course, an obvious phallic symbol in this analogy, but then the women are like, hey, I could do that too!
	But they don't have your superpower of surviving breakups.
	And they plummet. And their heart explodes on the sidewalk below.
	And so when it comes to dating...
	Look for values compatibility right up front.
	It doesn't mean that you've got to marry the woman.
	Maybe there's other things.
	Maybe whatever, right?
	She might change. But you've got to start with the values compatibility.
	And if the value compatibility isn't there, I'll tell you what's happening, man.
	You both jump in the ocean.
	You can swim.
	And she can't. You tread water.
	And she goes under. I was going to say it goes down, but that's the wrong way to put it.
	Women, I mean, they're not quite Laura in a glass menagerie.
	You breathe, it breaks.
	But women's hearts, they don't bounce back nearly as well as men's.
	Men are like those salamanders, like you cut their legs off to just grow a new one.
	Women don't work that way.
	Women don't bounce back.
	They don't regain their original shape.
	They don't recover. And that's partly because...
	Men, we had to keep our bonding mechanism somewhat flexible because so many women died in childbirth.
	And because we could, if we wanted, go and start a second family in our middle age because we retain our fertility.
	There's lots of reasons... And of course, men have to get a tougher hide because we ask women out and women say no a lot.
	And we have to deal with that rejection.
	It's hell. It's hell.
	So we have to have a bit of a thicker skin, maybe a lot of a thicker skin, and our pair bonding has to be just a little bit more flexible than women's.
	So the reason I'm saying this is because you said to me, Paul, and again, I'm not trying to catch you out, but it's what I remember, That...
	For this woman...
	Is that... Did I get that... Did I remember this right?
	That this is...
	Is this her first big serious relationship?
	This is her first relationship, period.
	Her first relationship. Okay.
	Okay. So...
	What happens...
	If you break up with her...
	Because she's not a Christian...
	What happens to her heart? What happens to her capacity to trust?
	What happens to her pair bonding?
	What happens to her love?
	I don't think I can comprehend it, but...
	Really, really, really bad.
	Possibly, like...
	Years to...
	No, never recover.
	Right. I just asked this for the, I guess, the men out there.
	If you ever want to, you can go and you can look up, and it's something that's so new in the world, but it's a pretty wild experiment.
	You go and look up your ex-girlfriends.
	But you can usually find them, like, on social media or somewhere, right?
	You go look up your ex-girlfriends and see how they're doing.
	And I think more often than not, you'll find that they're not doing that well.
	That many years ago, when I was in the business world, I worked with a guy whose wife got run over by a boat, like a speedboat, and she got just hacked up by the propeller, right?
	So it's a little like we're on a cruise and there are these ladies in bikinis on the ship and we're darting along and darting along and then It's just a succession or a series, right?
	And then what happens is we look them up later and they fell in the water and got hit by the propeller and we didn't even know.
	They're like in a wheelchair or something, right?
	So, I mean, listen, don't, I mean, don't listen to anything I say as any kind of gospel, of course, right?
	Certainly not you, my friend. This is probably blasphemy right there.
	But for those of you who are guys, look back at the girls who dated.
	How many of the girls that you dated, if they had a couple of boyfriends, a number of boyfriends or whatever, and maybe they were in and out of relationships, look them up if you're older.
	Look, they're late 20s, early 30s, early 40s.
	Look them up. How many of them are happily married with children?
	Oh, the carnage we leave in our wake that we don't even know.
	Why? Because we've been propagandized as part of this stake through the heart of our culture and civilization.
	We've been propagandized that our women are just like men.
	I'm just like, man, they can screw around, sleep around.
	I'm not accusing you of this.
	I know you're in a serious relationship.
	This is more for the audience as a whole.
	Oh, yeah, they can screw around.
	They can sleep around. They can bed hop.
	They can ride the male chicken carousel.
	They can poker their way through their 20s and, oh, they'll be fine.
	No, they won't. No, they won't.
	They'll feel used, hostile, bitter, angry, dirty, used.
	That's the used, I said. Used twice.
	They'll feel the moral equivalent of the teenage boy's Kleenex by his bed.
	That's bad. And please understand, I'm not accusing you.
	I know you're an honorable guy.
	You're having this call. You care about this woman.
	I believe that. So I'm not putting you in this category.
	It's just a general warning out there.
	You know, where do feminists come from?
	Feminists come from women who believe the lie that they could behave just like men, found out that it broke their heart, And now they're just holding the broken pieces up and screaming at this guy that patriarchy did them wrong.
	Well, it kind of did in a way, right?
	Use women for their looks and you create a generation of feminists.
	And the reason we use women for their looks is because...
	We don't think about marriage so much.
	Now you, again, Paul, honorable guy, thinking about marriage, thinking about the long term.
	Massive respect. Props.
	Good for you. Well done.
	Well done. But I'm trying to put this wisdom out there that was so denied me when I was younger.
	I mean, my daughter's a very attractive girl, and, you know, there's going to be hairy-legged guys out there who...
	Way down the road. I don't want to use her for her looks.
	So it's something to really think about.
	And I think...
	I don't know what you should do with this young woman.
	I don't. It's the complexities of the relationship, right?
	It can't be reduced to a single conversation.
	But I certainly would look inside your own heart.
	Look at her family...
	And say, am I willing to marry into that?
	She should look at your family and say, am I willing to marry into that?
	You should look at her non-Christianity and say, how am I going to answer the kids' questions?
	Why doesn't mommy come to church?
	You know, this was a real deal-breaker with this Christian girl I was hanging out with in my 20s.
	We talked about all of this.
	Again, we never even kissed.
	We talked about all of this stuff, like a potential future.
	And I said, look, I don't want my kids...
	This is back in the day.
	I said, I don't want my kids growing up in the church.
	I want them to know about religion.
	Religion is a very important factor in society.
	but I don't want them being told it's true automatically when they're kids and don't have the capacity to think more critically.
	And when they get older, obviously, we can both make our case.
	And she's like, no, no, they have to come to church with me when they're little.
	And I look, respect, man, respect for her.
	Good, she made the right decision.
	She did.
	And I'm sure that was not easy because she liked me a lot.
	Okay.
	But how are you going to handle it with kids and church and God and not God?
	And why doesn't mommy believe? And what do you believe?
	And you say to kids, well, you've got to live your life according to the Bible.
	And they look at their mom and say, well, you didn't.
	Fealty to your beliefs is the only way they can last.
	And obviously Christianity didn't last for 2,000 plus years.
	Because people compromise at this level.
	Just as if I had a wife who worked for the government, hated the free market, and yelled at the kids.
	Right? I mean, it would be...
	And then I would say, well, you know, you could do the right thing.
	Live with integrity and follow your values and virtues.
	Well, you didn't, Dad. Right?
	And that's the price, right? And the problem is, of course, that that price is a long way down the road, like a smoker's lung cancer is a long way down the road, whereas the positive effects of having a girlfriend are right here, right now.
	But I think, certainly, look, Christianity, obviously, is very much devoted to the long run, to eternity, to postponing gratification at the moment, right?
	And... I think you should respect your beliefs and just have a really frank conversation with her about what's going on in your mind, what's going on in your heart.
	And she can't make a decision if you're not being honest with her.
	And I don't think you can either, if that makes sense.
	It does. I've discussed, I mean, I've touched on it a bit, but I haven't dived deep enough at all.
	I've basically been like, would you be willing to come to church with me at some point?
	And she said yes, and that's basically the extent of the conversation.
	Right. Now, of course, if she has the virtues that you want without necessarily the religious faith and so on, you know, whatever.
	I mean, that's a whole other complicated question, but I think if the virtues are not the same and, I mean, your whole metaphysics and epistemology, like your nature of reality, nature of knowledge, is totally different.
	And I think that's going to be...
	I think it's going to be pretty rough.
	And if it's not rough for you, which I think it will be, it'll be pretty rough on the kids down the road.
	And that's my biggest concern.
	It's why I called in.
	Right.
	And if you all both have frank conversations, which, you know, it's kind of doing what your dad modeled the exact opposite of, right?
	So it's really, really tough.
	But if you have those kinds of frank conversations, again, it doesn't, you know, so I don't tell people what to do.
	It's sort of pointless and would be completely disrespectful to you, to the audience as a whole.
	But if you're honest enough, you know what to do.
	Most of not doing the right thing, which I don't even know if you are on, right?
	But most of not doing the right thing is just the blank out, right?
	It's just refusing to be honest and concentrate and think about things clearly, right?
	Which is kind of the value of philosophy.
	Philosophy doesn't tell you what to do, I think, other than be really, really honest.
	Be really ruthlessly honest and direct with people and...
	The right thing to do.
	You know, here's the thing too, man.
	If you want her to be a Christian, you need to show her nobility of purpose and honesty to the point where she's inspired.
	She'd like beg you to come to church, right?
	But if you're kind of like dancing around it, weaseling out a little bit, which I think you kind of are to be frank, then I don't know that's really much of a draw for her to come to church.
	Come to church, be like me, and avoid issues because people are cute.
	Is that enough to start with as far as this conversation goes?
	Yes.
	Absolutely. I really appreciate it.
	And helpful, useful, valuable?
	Quite useful, definitely.
	It gave me a lot to think about.
	Yes, and listen, I hope this doesn't come across as holier-than-thou or me good, you bad, or anything like that.
	You are a very wise person.
	And clear-thinking young man to bring these issues and topics up.
	And I hugely respect and admire your commitment to integrity at your age in particular.
	It's fantastic. And talk about things with your family, too.
	I think that can be really, really important.
	And it will set the stage.
	If you try and talk about things with your girlfriend without talking about things with your family first, it'll probably get all...
	Muddy and muddled. But yeah, great job, everyone.
	Thanks, everyone, so much for dropping by this evening and for listening.
	Please let me know what you think of the show.
	Of course, operations at freedomain.com.
	Drop by freedomain.com forward slash donate to help out the show.
	And I will talk to you Sunday in the a.m.
	And yeah, maybe play some cards afterwards.
	Take care.
	Lots of love.
	Bye.
	Well, thank you so much for enjoying this latest free domain show on philosophy and...
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	Please like, subscribe, and share, and all of that good stuff to get philosophy out into the world.
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	So thank you so much for your support, my friends.

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