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Oct. 24, 2020 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:06:19

27 YEAR OLD FEMALE BODYBUILDER: "I CAN'T COMMIT TO A MAN!" Freedomain Call In

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	Hey everybody, it's Stefan Molyneux from Freedomain.
	Hope you're doing well. Oh my gosh, it's less than two weeks of the US election.
	Maybe you've heard of the...
	U.S. election, been a little bit in the news lately, and I hope you found the second debate as engaging as the first one.
	Just shows you what a good moderator can do to keep things relatively sane.
	So we have got someone on the line tonight we've talked with before, and I will link to the show before the 27-year-old virgin.
	She may in fact, well, one of those variables may have changed.
	We'll see. We'll see.
	But she's here to talk with us tonight and it's great to have her back.
	It's great to have you with us this evening and let's take it away.
	So you've got, I guess, a message, an email, a text that you were going to start with.
	Is that right? Yes, absolutely.
	This was my email to James.
	Hello, Stefan. I considered all the things we talked about from our last phone conversation regarding myself and James.
	I went on several dates and chatted with some great guys and some not-so-great guys.
	Each time I realized that I kept wishing James was sitting in front of me and not some random man.
	He is truly the best person for me and I am allowing myself to show my love for him in the way I have always imagined myself loving him.
	However, Of course, since I am an over-thinker, There is something I am still struggling to work through.
	It is definitely a deep-seated issue of sorts that I have gotten away with not addressing.
	The only way I know how to describe it is a complete disassociation from my body and from myself as a sexual being.
	I cannot seem to be both emotionally intimate and physically intimate with a man despite wanting to be both with James.
	In the past, I am either totally numb and disconnected emotionally and only focusing on what is physically happening, and if I am not numb, I am in a state of panic.
	I have only experienced this panic with James, and I cannot abide it.
	I would say it is part of the reason I took a step back, because I felt just too known by him.
	I have a difficult time understanding what being in a healthy relationship looks like, despite having many healthy non-romantic relationships.
	I honestly do not know what to do.
	I want him, and I know we will have a good life together.
	Literally the life I have always imagined us having since we met.
	I have said for years that I want someone like him who is not him.
	As I've searched, I learned that James loves me as I am and there is not anything I have to do or become other than the best version of the me he already loves so much.
	There's truly no one else like James.
	I know that I have a tendency to go towards dysfunctional men because it allows me to, as you said, erase myself so I do not have to deal with my own issues because I am too busy managing someone else's.
	I have managed other people's issues my whole life, it seems, and I'm still managing them.
	But James does not have any issues for me to manage, forcing me to have to manage my own, which I obviously do not want to face because I do not know how to fix it.
	I often relate to Scarlett O'Hare from Gone with the Wind, and I wish that was not the case, as she is pretty awful in many ways.
	On her wedding night with her first husband, Charles, she panics, as it did not occur to her that in marrying this shy boy, she would be tasked with sharing his bed.
	That's how I feel sometimes.
	It says if it does not fully occur to me that the man I marry will also know me as no one else does.
	And it is horrifying to me.
	Help! All caps.
	I think the exclamation mark in all caps has kind of wound in through the message as a whole.
	The whole thing. Okay, so do you want to just give a quick recap of the major stuff we talked about last time?
	Oh, certainly. Well, we had a conversation, and then James also had a conversation, but they were both separate.
	And I was just expressing to you that I felt like he was not assertive enough, and that was concerning to me for many reasons, just because...
	I do want to, if we have children, which is another topic, but I do want to obviously be the one who stays home.
	So in order to be able to provide such a life, a man needs to have this tendency to be assertive.
	So that was concerning.
	And then we also just discussed a lot about my parents' history and why my tendency does tend to be to go towards destructive men.
	And that is because my mother, in her past, has of course gone towards...
	men who are dysfunctional her first husband was a heroin addict and her second husband my father is not that but he has a lot of just emotional issues and quite a temper and he's not a very just aware of how his words and actions have consequences um we also discussed how I want some magical majestical meeting of sorts to like drop out of the sky um because my dad often reflects on how My parents,
	despite not really being happily married, were brought together by God.
	And he tells the same story of their kind of fairytale meeting, that he is really the only character in that fairytale, to be frank, because that's not really how it happened.
	And then for him, I actually went and I listened to your chat with him, and this was when we were kind of on our break.
	I was very just proud of the way that he chatted with you.
	So it was issues about his mother and you did a really good role play with him as his crazy mother and he kind of held his own so that was interesting.
	A lot of it for his part, his conversation with you, was more so about his relationship with his mother and not really about his relationship with me and just how His tendencies to appease her are not tendencies you want to have as you go about your life.
	Right. Very good.
	Very good recap. And I think it's going to show up in this conversation as it did in the last one.
	Are you still 27?
	Yeah, I'm still 27.
	Hanging on. Yeah.
	Hanging on. All right.
	So 27 and you are...
	I'm sorry? Still a virgin.
	Still a virgin, still 27.
	And I mean, I think sort of like across the room, a very attractive woman and you go to the gym a lot.
	And so there is that aspect, which I did sort of mull about since we got the text here.
	And maybe we'll sort of talk a little bit about that.
	But tell me a little bit about how long you and James have been apart and...
	What the dates have been like and where all of that whole arc has been since we last talked?
	Certainly. So it's very easy to pick out when we kind of took the break.
	And that was, unfortunately, when the whole COVID thing happened.
	So this is something I'm working on.
	It's kind of just a character flaw of mine.
	When things go bad and they just keep going bad and they keep going bad, I shut down.
	And it's something that I'm very aware of because I don't want...
	People to help me. It's like I resent people trying to help me when I'm struggling.
	So I was also going through issues with my family.
	That is what I was referring to when I said, oh, I'm still managing people!
	And they were kind of at the peak of their awfulness.
	We discussed how my Half-brother.
	He's 40. He has a very serious medical condition, both emotionally and physically, sadly.
	And he's just kind of living at my mom's house.
	And my mom is not emotionally fit to be dealing with this because she is not a therapist, nor is she a physical therapist.
	So she's now tasked with handling these physical issues and psychological issues that she doesn't know how to manage.
	So then I, of course, am the one who needs to manage her and her inability to manage these things.
	So that all happened at once.
	And I was silent for like a few days.
	And he knew I was having like a really hard time because he knows me so well.
	And I just overall was not happy with my living situation.
	I was flip-flopping on buying a house.
	I did buy a house, so that's good.
	And so on. And he texted me.
	He's like, you know, is there a reason that I'm not aware of that you just have been shutting me out?
	And I just said, I don't have anything else to say.
	And I really didn't because I couldn't, like I didn't know what he wanted from me and I didn't understand like what he wanted me to be for him or do for him as the world is supposedly ending and people are losing their jobs and my family life is falling apart and so on.
	So I went through the summer and I made the decision to buy the house, you know, all on my own.
	I didn't Even tell my father.
	I didn't tell anybody. I bought the house by myself.
	I can afford the house by myself.
	I'm very fortunate in that way.
	And I also got a new job, which I did not tell anyone about because I just don't really share things with people.
	I like to do things on my own and it's like I resent Being helped when I'm struggling.
	And I actually recently realized why that is.
	And of course it goes back to, you know, your youth and what you experience as a child.
	And sadly, I have the cliché daddy issues, quote unquote, except I'm not a stripper and I don't have a tramp stamp, so that's good.
	Anywho. And I realized that the only time that my father was tender towards me was when I was sick, or was when I was crying, or when the world around me was crashing down.
	And as I got older and I started to resent him, because there's only so much forgiving you can do, I would get very hostile towards any sort of kindness that he would show me.
	And there are still those tendencies now.
	So, um, bought the house, and then I kind of just realized, um, that all of these men that I was dating, going out on dates with, my sister-in-law convinced me to sign up for, like, Catholic Match or something along those lines.
	Um, and it occurred to me that I kept trying to be for this man whatever his ideal woman was.
	And there were elements of... Sorry, sorry, for the men, like, just a man on a date, or...?
	Yeah, like these nice Catholic men, and most of them were very nice, and I kept, like, I would say that it's not very difficult to read, you know, a man who is on a Catholic site, who fills out a profile, who is looking for a relationship, and I can kind of gauge, okay, well, what aspects of me are too extreme, and And how appropriate would it be for me to mention to this particular gentleman that I'm not certain about kids and things of that nature.
	So I kind of just got tired of dealing with putting on a show and feeling like I can't be myself.
	And, you know, that's one of the mistakes that people make when they date, period.
	And I think it's difficult to not do that at first because you don't want to drop like Your big bomb on the third date, you know, because perhaps it would be more well received three weeks into the relationship, you know?
	And I realized that literally every single conversation I had, even if they were good conversations, I just kept thinking about James.
	And I just kept thinking how, like, I'm trying to recapture, like, that magic, for lack of a better term, that we had, like, when we first met.
	And I'm trying to find someone with whom...
	I click the same, you know, in literally all aspects of life.
	And I guess, and it sounds so, like, campy, but I do...
	I feel like I reflect a lot through music because I listen.
	My music is garbage. I get terrible taste in music, but I listen to a lot of music because I lift a lot.
	I'm always at the gym. And this one song came on, and it was a love song, and it had a religious undertone, and it was called Love Me.
	And one of the verses goes, you know, who will love me for me?
	Not for what I have done or for what I will become, who will love me, you know, for me.
	And nobody has ever shown me what such love can be.
	And I'm like, one person did!
	And I told him I have nothing left to say!
	Which was, you know, kind of a terrible way to end it.
	So right before I moved into my house, I sent him a text message and I just said, hey, you know, I hope you are well and just pleasantries.
	And I explained to him what was going on in my life because we're both teachers and I had just mentioned, oh, there's a job opening here.
	And he sent me, I honestly thought he would tell me to fuck off.
	To be frank. But he sent me like an equally long message.
	And I was going to respond with another equally long message.
	I'm just like, you know what? No.
	And I called him.
	And we talked for eight and a half hours.
	And it was that day where I just kind of said to him, you know, this is really dumb.
	If those were my exact words.
	I'm like, what are we doing?
	Like, why aren't we together?
	And he's kind of just in his very casual, you know, dry way of talking.
	He's like, well, because you can't make up your mind ever.
	And you're insane, more or less.
	And I'm like, well, I'm not insane anymore.
	And I've kind of just resolved through therapy and through showing myself, really.
	That I can make good decisions on my own.
	And I realized that I don't need anyone to take care of me insofar as buying me a house or paying my bills or buying me food or, you know, all of those things that I wanted a man to do because that's all my father was really ever able to do.
	So I always associated Masculinity and a partner with, it doesn't matter if you're emotionally able to care for your partner, if you're emotionally close, but if you can pay the bills and so on and so forth, like that is what a husband is for.
	A friendship is, oh yeah, we're emotionally close and you're intimately emotionally, but a husband is, you have children with him and he makes a salary so you don't have to work and you're not poor.
	And then when I realized that I can do that, I realized that the one thing that I'm really like shitty at taking care of is, as I told him, my itty-bitty prickly little heart.
	And he's I'm really the only man who has ever been able to fully do that for me.
	And I love him tremendously.
	If there is such a thing, you know, as the love of someone's life or a soulmate or the one, he is that for me.
	And he is extraordinarily special to me.
	And I want to...
	I saw him with his family.
	And I saw him...
	Because we were celebrating his birthday.
	And I saw him like...
	Like receive gifts from, and this sounds so campy, it's so ridiculous, but I saw him like receive gifts from his family.
	And like, it filled me with so much joy to see him receive love, if that makes sense.
	And I'm like, golly, is this what it feels like to truly love someone?
	To just take a step back and to observe them in a moment of joy and to just feel so full.
	And the parents don't know that we're back together, his sisters do, but I'm sure they pieced together as I whipped out my phone to take a bunch of pictures of him opening presents.
	And I just, I adore him.
	My mother was saying, and he's very tall, and I'm quite small.
	I'm quite short. My mother was like, you just hang on him like a tree.
	I'm like, well, yeah, because I love him.
	Like, he's my man. And I couldn't imagine, you know, anyone else in my life.
	And then I'm like, oh, you have to have sex with this man.
	I'm like, okay. Um, that is something else that I need to work through.
	And he knows, like, I'm very honest with him about just where these issues stem from.
	And he knows about my PG-13 level past, but for someone who wanted their first kiss to be, like, at the wedding, essentially, that's the household I was raised in.
	I'm like, oh, golly, I've...
	Definitely made some mistakes in that area, and as I told him, and as I told you the last time, I did not live with the amount of integrity that I had envisioned myself living that area of life, that romantic area of life in.
	And he has.
	He has not, you know, fooled around as much as I have.
	And it definitely...
	It definitely leaves...
	I do not want to say...
	What is that phrase you used?
	It was like...
	Not like...
	When a woman has slept with too many men, she has like penis something.
	She's just like numb and it just doesn't matter.
	Oh, the thousand penis stare.
	Yeah, thank you. The thousand penis stare.
	It is not in any way like that because I've never had sex and I've never done lots of things.
	But I'm almost like...
	I almost feel as if...
	Like, it's the PG-13 level of the thousand penis stare.
	Like, I've just fucked around with so many guys who I had no real care for emotionally, which was not good on my part.
	That was a bad thing to do for many reasons, because you're just disregarding someone's autonomy and you're treating them like an object, and that's very bad.
	Um, but I'm just like, I never associated, like, physical intimacy with romance, if that makes sense.
	So, like, it's like I don't know what to do, and I struggle a lot with...
	And I told my dad this, and my dad's a donut, so, like, why would I tell him this?
	A donut? It's my word for like a fool.
	Like, oh, you're such a donut. Like, oh, you're such a silly person.
	My sister called me that one day when we were on vacation and I was in a bad mood and we were on vacation and she called me a stupid donut because we were on vacation and I was upset.
	So that's why I use that because it reminds me of my sister.
	Anywho, donut means an idiot.
	Yeah, and I told him, I just feel like a strange, like, disconnection from, like, as a woman, like, what is my body for?
	Like, I just, I don't, it's so strange to describe.
	Like, I don't understand, like, how I'm supposed to feel with someone else.
	Like engaging intimately with my body.
	And I guess this also has to do with the fact that, you know, my sport is bodybuilding.
	So people, you know, make comments about my body all the time.
	And it's in an appropriate context because, you know, we're all bodybuilders and we're looking at each other's gains and each other's...
	Flared lats and all, you know, so I feel like it also comes from that, too, that my body is just kind of a thing that people comment on that is there, like, to just kind of be looked at.
	And that's it, I guess.
	Like, it's just kind of there.
	And I feel like Knowing me emotionally is something more intimate than knowing me physically.
	So it's almost like, why do you need to know that part of me too?
	Because now you know all of me.
	And there isn't anything that is mine.
	I think we've had a pretty good run of you.
	Yeah. And I'm going to have to jump in here because...
	Yeah, jump in whenever. Yeah.
	Oh, no, I know. I'm just waiting for a moment.
	I was sort of sitting there waiting for, you know...
	Oh, no, no, no.
	I was, like, waiting for you.
	No, no, no. See, that's not how conversation works.
	You don't just keep talking and then say to someone, well, you weren't interrupting me, right?
	So... No, no, because it's interesting.
	It's interesting to me, so...
	Just my thoughts. No, no, no.
	No offense. No, I'm not mad or anything.
	I'm just... You want to be frank, right?
	Which is... Oh, no, please.
	So you talk about feeling kind of dissociated, right?
	And then you give me this tsunami of kind of emotionally disconnected language, which is kind of like you're trying to drive me out of my own body as well.
	In other words, your dissociation was spreading to me through the wall of language.
	Okay. Because now we need to go back to this, right?
	So you wanted to have the call.
	Now, the call is valuable insofar as we both talk, right?
	And you had like 20-25 minutes of a monologue, right?
	Yeah. Now, I want to know what your emotional...
	And again, it's not a criticism, it's nothing negative, right?
	But what was your emotional experience of the monologue, of what you were saying?
	I was just feeling like, just get it, just talk about it.
	Just very anxious about it.
	Okay, anxious. Okay, good.
	Because that came through. And that came through because there was like, it was almost like you were one of these, have you ever seen these really cool jazz trumpet players?
	They can keep a note going because they're kind of inhaling through their nose at the same time as they're blowing out.
	Mm-hmm. I won't say emotionally inappropriate, but a sort of giggliness that was not particularly connected to the content of the speech.
	And there's a great rapidity in all of this.
	Now, what's really fascinating to me...
	Well, I mean, listen, it's a great conversation.
	I really, really think this is great so far.
	What's really interesting to me is the speed at which you process and the speed at which you talk.
	I think is part of the out-of-body experience.
	In other words, if you slow the F down...
	Like, speed...
	Is not connecting to people, right?
	If you go very rapidly, you can't connect to people.
	And if you provide the emotional commentary for your own language, you can't connect to people.
	Because part of my thought, just a thought, not a judgment, was, am I necessary in this conversation at all?
	If that makes sense.
	Okay. And I think that The reproduction of your dissociation or your anxiety is really important.
	Because if you want the connection, right?
	You want the connection. You know, it's not tough for an attractive young woman to get the sexual connection, of course, but you want the emotional connection.
	And when you were saying that you were on these dates with these men and you were tired of putting on the show, do you know what my first thought was?
	What? What?
	Are you putting on a show now?
	Oh, no.
	That's a good thought. Right?
	Because if, you know, I'm having these conversations with guys and I'm putting on a show.
	And that was my first, okay, is there a show going on at the moment?
	And by that, I don't mean that you're being fake.
	I don't mean that you're trying to manipulate, nothing like that.
	But the speed of the information, I sort of tell you what it's like.
	The speed of the information that you pass along gives no time for anyone to process.
	Okay. Now, it also, and most importantly, gives you no time to process.
	Like, just about every sentence that you had could have been half hour of back and forth.
	And the more that you...
	I mean, I don't know, you probably know a little bit about electricity, right?
	So you've got these fuses, right?
	And the fuses are designed that if there's an overload of electricity, that it cuts the connection, right?
	And that is...
	I guess the concern with the wall of language is that by overloading what people can process and jumping from one topic to another and providing your own emotional commentary with some laughs and some this and that and the other, listen, it's really charming, right?
	Because it seems very frank and very open and very honest and so on, but because it's so fast and so rapid and so lengthy, It ends up, I think, with people...
	I mean, I was thinking when you said about this eight and a half hour conversation.
	I was thinking about, okay, at this rate, how much did James say?
	Oh, he talks a lot. Okay, good, good.
	Yeah, I know. It was both of us.
	I think, and I'm not interrupting.
	I'm just at... No, no, listen.
	I don't want to go from your monologue to my monologue to have a conversation.
	No, no. I think, like, what my mindset was that, like, so much happened, and I just wanted you to see, like, the whole picture, if that makes sense.
	Because a lot really did change, and even when I was sharing with my sister-in-law and my sister and my brother, they're like, so my mentality behind just giving you the whole version at super speed was because I kind of wanted you to just hear all of it at once, even though it's a lot.
	Right. And, of course, the important thing is to check in with people, especially when you're giving them a lot of information.
	You've probably heard this a million times on the show where I pause and say, does this make sense?
	Does it fit with your experience?
	Does this work for you?
	Or does this match what you've known or anything like that, right?
	Because it's monologues.
	I mean, they can be very powerful and powerful.
	Yet, your issue is not with honesty.
	Your issue is not with speaking.
	Your issue is with connecting, right?
	Yeah. Okay.
	Okay. So, if you pause and ask someone if what you're saying makes sense, which you kind of know you should do, right?
	I mean, certainly I've done it, right?
	If you think about pausing and checking in with the other person in the middle of a conversation, What emotion comes up for you about that?
	Usually, I want them to kind of be engaged with what I'm saying.
	I want them to be interested with what I'm saying.
	Okay, let me try this question again.
	Of course, we all want people to be interested in what we're saying.
	But the thing is, too, the other thing, too, being interested in what you're saying, that's part of the show issue, right?
	So I want you to be interested in what I'm saying.
	But I don't want to change what I'm saying in order to interest you.
	Does that make sense? Yeah.
	Okay, so let's go back.
	So you're in...
	If I had...
	Or you could say, like, when I interrupted you, I sort of gave you feedback because I wasn't sure how much longer we were going to go on for.
	I think you were sort of nearing the end, but I wasn't sure.
	Yeah, I was nearing the end. Yeah.
	If you think about, you know, saying, you know, like a minute or two of, you know, pretty dense psychological and self-knowledge information and then pausing and saying, does that make sense?
	Like, if you pause for that and ask the other person in, what's your concern?
	Is it that you won't get to continue or that it's going to go off on a tangent or you're going to lose your connection with what you're saying?
	Like, there's something that is negative for you in getting that back and forth going.
	Oh, I understand. I would say there's a feeling of anxiety that there's going to be something important that I want to share and I won't get to hear their thoughts on it or I won't get to tell them this.
	It's like an anxiety associated with losing what I want to say.
	Okay, so if you check in with the other person, you're going to lose the thread of what it is that you're saying?
	Yeah. That is an absolute and total miscomprehension about conversation, if you don't mind me saying so.
	Because what you're saying is, I have a wall of information I need to get across to you.
	And you need to sit, take notes if you have to, or whatever, right?
	You need to sit until I'm done.
	Yeah, I see.
	But a wall of language is not a connection.
	It is not a conversation.
	What is a conversation is the back and forth.
	So if you have an agenda, then you're given a speech.
	And, see, the funny thing is, too, like, even if you're given a speech, you know, I used to go and give these, like, hour or two-hour speeches sometimes, right?
	Back when we could travel and it wasn't so dangerous.
	And I'm always in a dance with the audience.
	I'm always watching the audience.
	I'm always pausing. I'm checking in with the audience.
	Make a joke. See if they laugh.
	Make a pause. See if they're leaning in.
	Like, there's always, even when I'm just up there and it's an hour or an hour and a half or even longer, it is a back and forth.
	Because that's the only reason that I would be there in person rather than on the screen is the back and forth, right?
	And so you think that the conversation is about you getting across a volume's worth of information to the other person, right?
	And then the conversation can kind of start when you're done?
	In this particular instance because so much changed and I wanted you to see like the full picture of what I was experiencing.
	Absolutely, absolutely.
	And it's impossible for me or for anyone to keep track of and process The whole picture.
	Because literally, I mean, you'll hear this, and again, it's not a single shred of criticism at all.
	But when you listen back to it, you'll say, oh my gosh, I probably gave him 50 or 60 things that he could talk about.
	So if you have a lot of information to get across to someone, let's say you have 20 major points, you give a point, you check in.
	You give a point, you check in, right?
	But if you give all 20 points or 50 points or whatever it is, then you've lost a lot For a couple of reasons.
	One is that there's a lot of stuff way back in the monologue.
	And the other thing is that the person is kind of disassociating because the way that you have a conversation going is when someone's right in the conversation.
	Now, if, as I was, I'm sitting there thinking, okay, well, I do have an audience.
	I'm not sure that they're going to go with half an hour of this stuff.
	And I wonder if I'm supposed to interrupt this.
	You're almost done. Like, I'm starting to think about the conversation rather than just listening to the conversation, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, no, I understand.
	And I do that as well. Like, that certainly has happened to me when someone's just kind of going on and on and on and you lose the point of what you were talking about to begin with.
	Right. So, I mean, this is the beautiful thing about what you did.
	And I mean this in an incredibly positive and very warm way.
	It's a beautiful thing that you did because you're saying, I'm having trouble connecting with people and the way that you're communicating it is completely and totally modeling.
	The issue. So you couldn't be more clear, you know, if you tried.
	Well, that's really helpful.
	It really is.
	Like, I do talk a lot.
	You know, I talk for a living as well.
	James and I talk all the time, and he is a lecturer as well.
	So I can talk. So I can understand how that can be used as like a defense mechanism as well.
	And you can kind of get inside my head based on the manner in which I'm speaking.
	No, I can't get inside your head.
	It's like swimming up a waterfall.
	That's the challenge. No, seriously.
	Have you ever been in a situation where, you know, you're swimming and there's a riptide or something and you're like not making, like you're just swimming against the current?
	Yeah. Right. So this wall of text, it's like an afterburner from a jet engine.
	It's like you can walk towards it, but your face is going to melt.
	Sorry, that's a bit of a strong way to put it, but you know what I mean, right?
	That's really interesting to me that that is what occurred because it was just in my head to, you know, I was excited and I had discovered just the person that I really love and I sincerely want to address this issue that is quite deep-seated as I expressed in my email.
	But I presented, you know, the issue in a manner that you can't even address because you can't connect with it yourself.
	Well, here's the funny thing.
	We are addressing it, but not based upon the content of what you said, but based upon the form of what you said.
	I see. Right?
	So it's your unconscious saying, hey man, I got a great plan.
	Let's give this guy the wall of text.
	I bet you he'll figure it out.
	My subconscious?
	Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
	That's great. I literally never thought of it.
	And I understand now, just after you explaining to me what your experience was from that, why you experienced my excitement and my just really quick, seemingly abridged And I appreciate all the information that you provided, And I didn't ignore the content and I remember the content and all of that.
	But talking about the form of it, this stuff generally arises, Sarah, when you grow up in an environment where two people can't be in the same conversation at the same time.
	I don't know if you've ever heard this.
	It's kind of it was on Full House, I think, years ago.
	Like there's a talking stick.
	Whoever has the talking stick, they can speak.
	And if you don't have the talking spit, by gosh, you can't speak.
	Right.
	And it's kind of like that in a lot of families.
	It's actually kind of like that in a lot of relationships.
	Not your and I's, but it's kind of in our relationship.
	Where the talking stick is actually existence.
	It's identity. It's are you there?
	And if you're in a situation where you can talk or the other person can talk, but you can't quite mesh or merge, that would be my guess about...
	What it was like for you growing up, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, that's actually right on the nose.
	And actually, my boyfriend saw my parents engage together, like, for the first time.
	And he more or less describes it as...
	He said, first of all, you're accurate.
	Like, you explained it very well.
	This is literally what you've been telling me for years is what I saw.
	But there's a lot of, like, talking...
	But there's not a lot of really consideration of how the other person is responding to what you say.
	There's not a lot of consideration of Does your body language display that you even like me?
	Because I've often expressed that, sure, my parents love each other and they have a sense of devotion, I suppose, but do they, quote, like each other?
	Like, do they enjoy each other's company?
	Do they take the feelings that the other one has into consideration when they talk?
	No, they don't. It's just kind of words.
	Yeah. Right, right.
	Or, you know, not this is you, but there's that old cliche of a guy on a date.
	But enough about me. Why don't you tell me what you think of me?
	Yeah. No, and I'm not putting you in that category, but that's kind of the joke, right?
	Yeah. And this, unfortunately, is something that happens enormously with addicts.
	Not that I'm putting you in that category, but I know that you grew up with one, right?
	Yeah. On and off, yeah.
	On and off, right. Well, I mean, that generally tends to be...
	Living in the house at different times.
	Right, right. I was just, by the by, after I did the last show where the guy was singing Elvis and I mentioned Don McLean, a listener sent me an article.
	About Don McLean, who I think is past 70 now.
	And he had a 30-year marriage. His wife wrote him love letters every day.
	And then she divorced him, I think called the cops on him.
	He was charged. He pled out because he didn't want the publicity.
	And now I think she's touring doing a one-woman show basically called My Husband is an A-Hole or something like that.
	And man, it's pretty rough.
	And this poor guy, you know, when he was growing up, his...
	Aunt was an addict, an alcoholic, I think, who would come, you know, crashing and smashing through the house, destroy everything, I assume, steal everything that's not nailed down as addicts tend to do.
	And then would leave and try to be independent, would crash out, would come back.
	And then when he's 15, he says to his dad, hey, I just had a vision that you're going to die in two days.
	And what happened two days later?
	His dad died. And then he cried for two years because he thought it was his fault, which means, of course, the parents hadn't told the mom, hadn't talked him through his feelings.
	And he said, like, I've never been happy.
	I've never been happy. The other thing he said, which I remember from years ago, I actually saw Don McLean at Ontario Place probably 30 years ago, playing to maybe 30 people.
	It's a long way from American Pie down to a corner bandstand, a hovel at Ontario Place.
	But, you know, the guy soldiered on and did it and still was better than the terrible James Brown show I saw down there once.
	But anyway, so Don McLean...
	Guy's never been happy.
	Guy's never been happy. And people say, well, what are the lyrics to American?
	What does American Pie mean?
	What does it mean? He says, it means I never have to work again.
	So that sort of experience of living with an addict, I was just talking about this with my daughter.
	Addicts are just like wildfire through people's houses.
	You can't think of anything else.
	You can't relax. You can't be yourself.
	You can't have anything natural.
	Because the addict is always angling for something.
	It's never, like, it's what Diana West says about the communists.
	Like, the issue is never the issue.
	The issue is always the revolution.
	Always the revolution. I was reading about how Hugh Grant is in some new movie with Nicole Kidman about a guy who murders his wife.
	And you just see this all the time, all the time, all the time.
	It's all these white characters, right?
	And it's always like... The man seems nice, but he's just a monster.
	He's got a suit of invisibility and he stalks his wife.
	It's just all about programming women to be terrified of men.
	You analyzed that film, The Invisible Man?
	Yeah. Right?
	Yeah, I remember that. I listened to that.
	I didn't watch the film because, you know, I listened to what you have to say instead.
	I'm like, oh, this is a dumb movie.
	But yeah. Well, yeah, but it's, like, you can't just have, like, I watched, I'm sorry, a bit of a tangent here, but it's kind of related.
	So I watched The Trial of the Chicago 7, which was written by Aaron Sorkin.
	And, you know, it's all about, we're so anti-war, man.
	We're so anti-war. Yeah, right.
	Because the hard left, the communists, Antifa, they're so anti-violence.
	Just, it's all they are. I mean, come on.
	All they do is hand out flowers.
	They never attack people. Nobody ever lives in fear.
	They never threaten to bomb speakers like myself.
	Of course, the whole anti-war movement was funded by the GRU and the NKVD, like the secret police in Soviet Russia under communism poured a billion dollars plus into the anti-war movement.
	They spent more money funding the anti-war movement in the 60s in America than they spent propping up the North Vietnamese government during the entire war.
	Yeah.
	Of course, every long-haired hippie ding-dong, a donut, as you would say, just completely fell for all of this.
	So now, you know, the trial of the – they're just so anti-war, you see.
	But of course, it's got nothing to do with the Vietnam War.
	They were only anti-war because America was fighting communists.
	That's all it was.
	When America is not fighting communists, well, it tends to be kind of a different matter as a whole.
	And so the reason I'm sort of saying that is like once you see this garbage all over the place in the media, nothing is ever about the thing itself.
	Nothing is ever about the thing itself.
	Nobody sits there and says...
	You know what? Let's put a black character into a show.
	Let's put a black character into a show.
	Okay, let's look at the number one issues that the black people are facing.
	Okay, well, there's fatherlessness, there's criminality, there's bad education.
	Like, these are things. And you can't just say, okay, let's put in someone who reflects, you know, average black experience and so on.
	You can never do that. It's always got to be, okay, we're going to make him a genius and a rocket scientist and peaceful and respectful and all of these things.
	Because it's all about just defensive.
	Can we preempt aggression?
	Can we preempt boycotting?
	Are people going to burn down our studios?
	Nothing is ever about the thing itself.
	It's always, always, always about the goal.
	It's the same thing with addicts.
	They're either trying to get money, or they're trying to get you to forgive them, or they're apologizing.
	But it's all for some, and the only reason they'll apologize is because they want you to give them money in the future.
	It's always about the addiction.
	It's never, ever, ever about the thing itself.
	It's always an agenda.
	There's always a purpose.
	And if you grow up like that, you can't have a conversation with the addict because all you're talking to is the drug or all you're talking to is the addiction.
	And so that's, I guess, my concern.
	So I'll shut up. That's sort of my thoughts about this.
	Can two people be in the same conversation at the same time?
	Yeah, and just, um, you're always thinking about the addict, just so to speak.
	Not 100% exactly what you said, but my mother, she, whenever she engaged with my father, she just always thinks, okay, what can I say to make him, like, not yell at me?
	Or, like, what can I say so he'll leave?
	Or something like that.
	So she's never actually just engaging with him for the purpose of, um...
	You know, having a conversation with your husband, it's always like there's some sort of agenda.
	Either she wants something from him.
	Before he retired, it was always like his paycheck.
	Oh, if I don't do this, you know, I'm not going to get, you know, the paycheck or whatever.
	And now it's like, oh, if I say this, like maybe he'll just leave, like he'll leave me alone.
	So that's really interesting.
	All right. Now, are you sitting down?
	Um, I am pacing.
	Okay, that's totally fine. Just have a place you can sit, because I'm just about to blow your mind.
	Okay. Do it.
	So your addiction is to being uncertain, and no one could talk to you without first referencing and focusing on that.
	My addiction is uncertainty.
	To being uncertain. To being, okay.
	Explain, because I've never heard it put in that way, but when you said it, I was like, that's it.
	That's it. Yeah.
	Okay. Okay, so James said to you when you said, Well, it's so crazy.
	We're not together. What did he say?
	He said, because?
	Because you can't make up your mind.
	And I said, because I'm insane.
	He's like, well, yeah. And then I said, well, I'm not insane anymore.
	Yeah, I said, because you can't make up your mind for anything.
	And this has always been the problem.
	Even the last time that we tried to date, you know, and I went back and I said the same thing.
	Like, why is this so hard?
	And he wasn't mean, you know, just like you were not mean.
	You told me the truth, but you observed.
	He does that as well. And he said, well, because you can't be consistent for two weeks, my dear.
	Like, that's why we're not together.
	So it's you. It's your inability to be consistent.
	So if your addiction, and obviously this is not a clinical diagnosis of any kind, right?
	But if your addiction is to being uncertain, it's not an addiction to uncertainty.
	It's an addiction to being uncertain.
	Then everyone who deals with you has to deal with that flightiness that stands between you and connection.
	Uh-huh. That's really interesting that you said flighty, because my older sister, she describes one of her flaws, I don't think it's as major as mine, but she describes one of her flaws that she's working on is flightiness, is just feeling this sense of anxiety and uncertainty about things that are 100% certain.
	You know, like she's a mom, she's been married more or less happily, I think she would say happily for the most part.
	For many years, she has two kids, she has two successful businesses, but they're still just, oh!
	And my mother is like that as well.
	I actually told my boyfriend that my mother literally, for as long as I can remember, would say that she just experiences this sense of drudgery about everything, and she's just always, oh!
	You know, that sound effect, oh, about everything.
	The dog is worried about everything all the time.
	Go back to that sound effect, because you did it in a kind of merry way.
	I need to get it from your mom's perspective.
	What does it sound like, for real?
	It sounds like, okay, so, let me see my mom.
	Oh, like that.
	That's how she feels about life.
	Just life is drudgery, and all I want to do is just go to sleep, and I just don't want to be bothered, and oh.
	Like that is what I grew up hearing.
	This is your mother, right?
	This is my mother, yeah. And she still says the same thing.
	Okay, so let's get into that.
	Because I think that's important, right?
	Oh, certainly. Yeah, I see.
	And I'm sure you'll see more obviously, rather, I'm sorry, the less obvious connections that I see to myself and my mother and just this addiction to uncertainty.
	Yeah. So what does she, oh, I'm trying to get that because it's not, I don't quite get the drudgery is like, oh, you know, just that kind of heavy beast of burden shit that people have.
	Yeah. Well, I would describe my mother as everything she does for the people that, you know, she loves.
	She does it out of just I don't really want to do this, but I have to do this, and oh, I just want the day to be over, and then I can just go to sleep, and you know, I just don't want to deal with your father,
	and if I don't do this, then I'm afraid that he won't give me the paycheck, and if he finds out that the bills are this high, then he's going to threaten to take away the money from me again, and that's Kind of just her mentality when approaching all life.
	Everything is burdensome to her.
	Everything is a cause for alarm.
	So I'm trying to think of the most recent one.
	Ah, I remember. So I moved away from the area.
	I'm about an hour away from her.
	But my favorite Thai restaurant is 45 minutes away from me.
	So she did me a favor.
	She picked up something from the pharmacy for me.
	So I did not have to go down and get it.
	But I still wanted Thai food that day.
	So I went down, you know, and I got it.
	It was a 45-minute drive. The weather wasn't great, but I went down and I got the Thai food.
	So the next day I visit her, and she says, oh, I got you this thing from the pharmacy.
	You know, weren't you happy you didn't have to come down the mountain and get it?
	And I said, oh, you know, thank you.
	I'm glad I didn't have to, you know, stop at the pharmacy because lines are annoying.
	But I actually just went down because I wanted Thai food.
	And she went ballistic.
	Like, I looked at her and I said, no, no, no, no, you see, you yelling at me, an adult, you know, with a house, It is more detrimental to me than the action of driving 45 minutes in vaguely foggy weather.
	And I told her, do you see how literally, like, everything is a problem all the time?
	And she just, you know, got mad at me, so she stopped talking.
	But I see that a lot.
	So hang on, so she had an issue because she thought she was doing you a big favor by bringing you something which was someplace you had just been.
	No, no, I've not been explaining this well.
	She said that she would pick up something from the pharmacy for me, which was near the Thai restaurant.
	And she's like, oh, I picked this up for you so you didn't have to go down.
	That's just what I said. She brought you something from someplace you just went to.
	So her favor was kind of unnecessary because you could have as easily picked up something from the pharmacy, which is next door to the Thai restaurant, right?
	Yeah. Okay. Okay.
	So you did explain it very well.
	You were just re-explaining it even better.
	Oh, thank you. Yeah.
	So, yeah. And she just got so agitated for, like, literally no reason.
	No, no, no. Hang on.
	Hang on. No, no. It's not literally no reason.
	A silly reason.
	Well, let's back off from that a sec.
	You could be right. You could absolutely be right.
	But I can see why she'd be a little...
	I'm not saying the yelling or anything, but I can see why it'd be a little annoying.
	Like if she says, I'm going to go get something for you, and she goes and gets it for you, and it turns out that you were right there anyway.
	Yeah. I can see why that would be...
	I suppose... No, because if you'd have said, because I guess she had to drive it to you, right?
	No, she was picking it up for me because I was going to visit her the next day.
	So she's like, oh, I'll have it for you.
	And I was like, okay. It was fine.
	But I'm confused as to why you wouldn't think that might even be remotely annoying.
	I mean, I can see it being a little annoying.
	Like if I go and say, oh, I'm going to drive 45 minutes to go pick something up and someone says, oh, that'd be great, right?
	And then they say, oh, yeah, I was right there yesterday as well.
	I'd be like, what the?
	Not even so much that it was kind of a waste, but also because there's no sense of like, okay, here's a funny thing, Mom.
	Here's a funny thing. You went to go and get this stuff for me from a 45-minute drive away.
	I'll tell you, I ended up three doors down that very night because I had this crazy yearning for Thai food.
	No, no, it's 45 minutes from me.
	It's not 45 minutes from her.
	She was trying to save me the 45-minute drive.
	Which she didn't do. No, she didn't do because, you know, I had planned to get typhoon that day anyway.
	So I was like, okay, well, thank you.
	You know, I don't need to wait at the pharmacy line.
	So that was it. It was not like, it was not out of the way for her.
	It was out of the way for me because it's 45 minutes away from me.
	But it didn't turn out to be out of the way for you because you went there anyway.
	Yeah, because I went there to get it anyway, yeah, to get tight feet.
	Okay, so were you aware when you went to go and get it that this was making your mom's kindness kind of pointless?
	Was I aware?
	Well, no, because she just kind of picked it up voluntarily.
	Well, no, but the only value that you had saying, well, at least I don't have to sit with a lineup in the pharmacy, right?
	Mm-hmm. So the only reason it becomes positive for you is if there's some kind of negative for your mom, right?
	Like, got to wait in a pharmacy, right?
	I'm sorry. So the only reason it is positive for me is because I didn't have to wait in the pharmacy line.
	Is that what you're asking? Yeah, because, I mean, let's say, for sake of argument, I know this sounds odd, but this is important, right?
	So let's just say, for sake of argument, the pharmacy is right next door to the Thai place.
	Mm-hmm. Okay? And there's a box out front, you lift and get it.
	Then there would be no point in your mom going, right?
	Mm-hmm. But so she went, and again, it's not bad that you went for Thai food or anything like that.
	I guess I'm just a bit confused as to why you wouldn't understand that it would be a little bit annoying for your mom that she goes to pick something up from you because she wants to save you a 45-minute drive, and you did the 45-minute drive anyway.
	No, I understand that.
	Yeah, I suppose. I suppose what was, like, annoying for me was she was getting so upset because it was vaguely, like, foggy outside, and that was why.
	She's like, you know, I don't understand why you would drive down, you know, in the fog, and why didn't you just stay home?
	So I took issue, and I got kind of annoyed because she...
	Often, when there's any sort of weather that is not sunny, she doesn't want me to leave, to go anywhere.
	So, no, I do understand why there would be just a feeling of, well, you know, this was a waste.
	I understand, yeah. And I'm so sorry, just draw me the family map between this group and the heroin addicts.
	No, no, no. The heroin addict was my mother's ex-husband.
	She married him when he was 35 and she was 18.
	There are some other issues with, like, addictions to other sorts of drugs.
	No serious drugs of that nature, but just alcoholism and things of that nature.
	So the heroin addict was my mother's ex-husband.
	And then the individuals who have issues with drugs and...
	They're like psychiatric drugs.
	Overdosing on those are her two children.
	So my half-siblings. Sorry, just remind me of that story.
	Oh, sure. Which aspect of the story?
	The two siblings.
	Just who they are? Yeah. Oh, yeah.
	So... Oh, so we all kind of grew up like very close in the same house and then I would say that when we got older and we kind of started developing personalities of our own, none of us really meshed with those two too well.
	So the oldest, she is 42, she's on disability, she's never worked a job, she has some sort of A mental issue where she can't deal with being around people and she just has anxiety with, she always thinks like people are staring at her or something.
	And that was an issue for as long as I can remember.
	Like, I remember her talking about this when I was 10.
	Like, oh, I just, I don't want to go here because everyone's looking at me.
	So she has never, you know, worked.
	And then this one, my half-brother, so her other child, he is 40.
	Unfortunately, he is not married, and he has some sort of inflammation in his joints.
	Very similar to, like, multiple sclerosis, where sometimes the nerves function okay, and sometimes they don't function at all, and you never know.
	So he's truly dealing with that, but...
	Again, as long as I can remember, he has always had some sort of just psychiatric issue.
	And my mother was explaining to me how he had, like, just some emotional breakdown at the kitchen table, like, a couple weeks ago when I was over there visiting.
	And very, very sad.
	And I said, well, you know...
	Like, what is the reason that he's still seeing this psychiatrist and taking this cocktail of drugs for 12 years and it's clearly not working, you know?
	And she's like, oh, well, he's always been this way.
	So that issue has just kind of been, like, brushed off.
	So that's them. He's currently on disability and living there.
	It's really, it's very very depressing.
	It's actually quite difficult like for me to be around because the best way I can describe it is like I'm just very sensitive to that having you know struggled with similar things of my own so it's really challenging it's a very sad situation.
	So she's very concerned for your safety in particular because you're the functional one right?
	Oh, I never thought of that.
	Yeah, I'm the functional one who's near them.
	Yeah. Okay, that makes sense.
	I mean, she doesn't have to worry about them driving in the fog, right?
	Yeah, that's true. Go out of the house.
	Yeah, that's true. That's true.
	I literally, I never thought of that.
	The other ones, they're obviously very functional, but they're not a drive away.
	Yeah. And I am the one who just kind of got elected to manage everyone who's left because I'm the closest.
	Okay. Yeah. Well, you didn't get elected because you didn't run for the office, right?
	No. You got appointed.
	Yeah, I'm saying elected kind of sarcastically.
	You got drafted. Yeah.
	You got drafted. All right.
	Yeah. Okay. So let's go back to...
	Uncertainty. Indecisiveness. Yeah.
	Now, do you know what indecisiveness gives a woman?
	What benefit does she get from it?
	I'll tell you what it gives me.
	I feel like it gives me a way out.
	Yeah, that's very nice, but that's not it.
	You're such a nice young lady.
	You really are. It's great. But no, that's not it.
	That's far too nice. That's the way I think.
	I'm like, okay, if I just act like I can't make up my mind, then that's a way out.
	No, no, I get that. It's true that it gives you a way out.
	But what does it give you in the relationship dynamic?
	Oh, I guess, like, it gives you all the power.
	It gives you all the power. Yeah, who is a good man, you know, who you really like and who really likes you, then you can just kind of, you can experiment and say, well, how long can I string him along for?
	Well, the man wants you in a pretty straightforward way, and you're like a maze.
	And so you get the power.
	Yeah. And power is addictive.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	And why do you want this power?
	Because you feel powerless.
	Yeah, yeah, that's, wow, that's like amazing.
	That's amazing.
	Now, when you want power through uncertainty, it actually does make you powerless.
	Yeah. Because your only power comes from indecisiveness, which weakens you.
	Okay. So what is it like for you to be in a relationship where you don't have any power?
	This is the stuff I've been screaming at for like 15 years straight.
	Be in relationships where you don't have any power.
	Listen, let's talk you and I. Let's talk Sarah and Steph.
	In this conversation, do I have any power with you?
	Oh yeah. I guess maybe I have a little bit of authority, like maybe I can provide something, but I don't have any power.
	You mean like, but you can literally hang up on me.
	That's kind of what I mean. Sorry, did you say I can literally hang up on you?
	Yeah, like you can end the conversation.
	You know, you're just like, okay, well, and you did that once.
	I remember with some Christian guy a while back.
	Do you feel that that is going to happen?
	I mean, what was it? I talked with you and James for like three and a half hours.
	Do you really feel that that's hanging over you like this sort of Damocles?
	No, no, no, no. Okay, so I'm in for the conversation, right?
	Because when I wasn't in the conversation a little bit earlier during the first 25-minute monologue, I said, I don't feel like I'm in the conversation, right?
	I didn't just sort of say, I'm tired of listening, click, right?
	Yeah. Okay, so I'm not going to hang up on you.
	You know, I guess theoretically it could happen if a meteor hits the house or whatever, right?
	But that's not going to happen.
	Have I said anything mean to you?
	Have I put you down?
	Or have I consistently said, it's not criticism, I'm not upset, blah, blah, blah, right?
	Yeah. Okay, so I don't have any power With you.
	When it comes to my wife, I don't have any power with her.
	I don't bully her. I don't withhold.
	We just talk, right?
	With my daughter, I don't have any power.
	And I specifically reject power in my relationships.
	You've heard me say a million times that I make the same mistakes.
	I've probably made more mistakes than a lot of my listeners in many ways.
	I'm not an authority. I never tell people what to do.
	Right? So I am continually, conspicuously, repetitively, redundantly, rejecting power in these relationships.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Now, if you...
	Are addicted to uncertainty, then you gain a huge amount of power, but power always comes at a price, right?
	You know the old story that the devil comes and says, I'll give you whatever, X, Y, and Z. You can write beautiful songs, Billie Eilish or whatever, but you've got to make them totally evil, right?
	Or whatever it is, right? You can get power, but it comes at the expense of your soul, right?
	Yeah. Okay, so...
	Addiction.
	that arises out of helplessness so think of the addict right i mean heroin addict whatever right the heroin addict has to bully manipulate control other people there's a reason that addicts are known as emotional terrorists right now the reason that they try to bully and dominate and have power over others is why because they are a slave to this drug and That's right. Yeah, oh my goodness.
	That is so fascinating.
	Because there are thoughts that I have that kind of line up with that.
	And oftentimes when I just feel like I want to run away from a decision and I just want to be left alone, you know, the way that my mother has always wanted to be left alone her whole life.
	The thing that I retreat to is bodybuilding because it's the only thing that I feel extremely capable at and extremely powerful in and it's the only thing that I just feel like I can obsess enough over it and focus enough on it That all of the other things that I am missing,
	because I can't make up a decision about whether to say yay or nay to them, I'm distracted.
	I'm too distracted to be concerned with them.
	There is that aspect to it, but I'm sure that you're very aware that in the gym world, a female bodybuilder is extraordinarily high status, right?
	Yeah, that's true.
	Now... So it is something else that also gives you power in that it raises demand for you in the sexual market value place, right?
	So because then you have guys who want you, you can play Queen Sarah, right?
	And you can pick and choose, right?
	And you can say yes, no, and yes, no, and all of that.
	And you have men wanting you rather than having you.
	Yeah. Yeah, I understand.
	And to surrender your power is to say the eternal yes or the eternal no.
	See, a woman, like, you know, the friend zone thing, and I'm not accusing you of sticking guys in the friend zone, but everybody knows the friend zone thing, which is that the woman is keeping you around, she's dropping a couple of signals, this, that, or the other, right?
	But she's not saying, of course, if a man is attracted to a woman and the woman doesn't want to go out with the man, And I had a pretty actually hilarious conversation with my daughter the other day about chemistry!
	You know, because what do we even say?
	There's no chemistry!
	It's like, this is not a science experiment, people!
	What does chemistry matter?
	No chemistry! Anyway, so now whenever a woman, if you're watching a show or something, and some woman is like hesitant, my daughter would just mock her like, there's no chemistry!
	Yeah. Like, women have no free will.
	It's chemical reagents that drag their reproductive organs one way or another, right?
	No, it's true. That's a really good way to say it.
	And, like, you asked the young lady who was speaking to you, do you often use the phrase, we have no chemistry?
	Oh, yeah. The moment you hear no chemistry or there's just no chemistry, what she's saying is that you're not dysfunctional enough for her.
	No, it's so true.
	It is. So the friend zone is when...
	So if the man's attracted to the woman, the woman's not attracted to the man or is not willing to consider it, right?
	Because attraction is mental as well as just gimmicky.
	So she has to kick him out of her life completely because she's wasting his time and she's keeping him around as a beta orbiter to feed her own ego.
	And it's really, really selfish and destructive to the other person.
	To be fair, I say the same thing to men who were dating women in their late 20s, early 30s, saying, look, if you're not interested in having kids and she wants kids, for God's sakes, man, cut her loose.
	It's brutal, right? Yeah.
	Oh, yeah. You're killing her, you know, unborn babies in the crib, so to speak, right?
	Yeah, that happened to one of my friends that I know.
	She was dating this guy.
	She was 22. He was 42.
	She is now 27.
	He is 47. They were going to get married and he broke up with her.
	And I'm like, oh! Yeah, well, you know, I can't exactly give her a complete free pass of victimhood on that one because he was double her age, right?
	You know, yeah.
	So, you are raising...
	Your sexual market value through the working out.
	And again, I'm not trying to discourage you from working out.
	I work out, though, obviously not to your level.
	So that's good. It's healthy.
	and I don't want to say like this is something bad, but to be in the position of choosing, of accepting or rejecting men, gives you a great deal of power and a great deal of helplessness at the same time.
	Because you're addicted to not deciding, deciding is going to undo your personality as you know it.
	That's like, I feel that way.
	That's so fascinating.
	I guess, you know, at 3 a.m. when you're taught to an attorney and you think about these things, I just remember thinking like, oh my God, like...
	You know, I'm a young lady, I'm very well received by men and I'm successful, especially for my age nowadays with how difficult it is to get ahead and not be in debt and so on.
	And I still just feel like everything It's doom.
	Like, everything is crashing down on me.
	And I don't know why.
	And I even told James this, like, when we first started, you know, officially dating.
	And he's just like, but there's nothing that is doom.
	There's nothing that's wrong.
	There's nothing that you need to change.
	There's nothing that isn't...
	Well, that's... God love James, and I like him enormously, but he's absolutely wrong about that.
	Because if you think something's doomed, it kind of is, right?
	Yeah. Right, so him saying nothing, like you saying, things are doomed, and he's like, no, they're not.
	It's like, well, that's not true, because you think they are, right?
	Yeah, no, no, I understand what you mean.
	I can't possibly exercise.
	I'm never, ever going to be able to eat well, and I can't possibly exercise.
	It's like, sure you can. It's like, yeah, but if I believe that, I'm going to get fat and flaccid, right?
	Yeah, yeah. So he's trying to just talk you out of something that's foundational to not you.
	This addictive behavior.
	So what is addictive behavior?
	As a whole, it is repetitive behavior that does significant harm to your life or your prospects.
	And this addiction to...
	Doom? Uncertainty.
	No, no, no. The doom results from the addiction to uncertainty.
	Like, the doom doesn't result from the addiction...
	Sorry, the doom results from the addiction to heroin, right?
	And the doom results from the addiction to uncertainty.
	Okay. To being uncertain, right?
	So, who are you...
	And this is a foundational question for men and for women, though a little bit more from women, right?
	Yeah. So, Sarah, who are you if you're not being wanted?
	Yeah. That is like I've literally thought about this and that's so fascinating.
	You're always on point.
	Why, thank you. You're welcome.
	When you had said, oh, you know, being a female bodybuilder, it's obviously a very high sexual market value and I kind of snuck in there.
	I'm like, yeah, but obviously like I know for the time being.
	Like, I know when I am in my mid-30s and I still intend to be fit and work out because I love it and so on and so forth.
	And I like the way it makes me feel.
	I like the way it makes me look. But, like, I thought about this.
	Like, I feel so whole doing this.
	And I feel so whole prepping for these physique shows.
	But you know how, like, you've obviously seen the movie Forrest Gump, right?
	Yes. Yeah, and when he's running and he has, like, the entire world watching him, and then he just stops because he's like, well, I don't want to run anymore.
	And I've often thought about that, well, who am I going to be if I'm not, like, the buff bodybuilder bitch?
	I'm sorry, if?
	It's not a matter of if, my friend.
	It's when! It's when!
	It's when. I mean, I guess I could, like, extend it with PEDs and whatnot, but I'm not about that.
	And I guess I could distract myself enough, you know, with this endeavor to go pro, but, like, I'm not a moron.
	Like, I know that... It doesn't matter.
	It doesn't matter. Time marches forward.
	Yeah, like, I'm not a moron.
	I'm going to put this out to the listeners on the chat.
	Kelly Ann Conway's daughter.
	Is her name Trish?
	Or maybe you know this, Sarah.
	I didn't know about her. Sorry?
	I had no idea. I didn't know about her.
	Okay, so Kellyanne Conway is married to some never-Trumper lunatic who's, I think, kind of obese and all of that.
	He started that Lincoln project, I think.
	Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's completely mental, right?
	So she is an incredibly successful woman.
	She's the first woman to run a successful presidential campaign against enormous odds in 2016.
	Claudia, yeah. I think it's Claudia.
	James is king of trivia.
	The fact that he knows this tween, I don't know.
	Anyway, she's a teen. Oh, he was saying that, actually, that he's very good at trivia.
	Oh, yeah. No, we play trivia sometimes, and it's terrifying.
	James is actually the Borg of all human knowledge.
	He is, in fact, the Internet.
	There is just a shadow Internet that follows him around.
	But so...
	Kellyanne Conway has, in August, she quit because her daughter's kind of going off the rails, right?
	I mean, her daughter is out there talking about family issues and, you know, making up stuff about Trump's health and all of that.
	And she's got, of course, because she's trashing Trump and she's trashing her mom and all of that.
	She's got a zillion Instagram followers or whatever it is, right?
	Mm-hmm. And anyway, so the reason I've sort of pointed this out is, you know, Kellyanne Conway, a very brilliant woman, and, you know, I mean, I guess it's not particularly important for her job, obviously, but she's an attractive woman.
	Yeah. But if you look at a picture of Kellyanne Conway next to her daughter, Claudia, who's in her mid-teens, I mean, it literally is night and day.
	She looks like the Crypt Keeper.
	That's fine. So do I. You know, if I had a 15-year-old son, I'd look like the Crypt Keeper too, right?
	Yeah. But, no, sorry, James, I didn't indicate that you use the internet.
	You are the internet. That's just to be clear of that, right?
	So if you look at Claudia Conway, and this is like, she was, oh, yeah, she said something about her mom having a negative, like going out after a positive COVID test, and she got it wrong because her mom had like three tests.
	And I think the mom was like yelling at the daughter or swearing at the daughter, not knowing that the daughter was live streaming.
	Like, it's just, it looks like a complete...
	mess.
	But the dysfunction of the family is not particularly important.
	But what is important is you can just go look at a picture of Kellyanne Conway, full sunlight, you know, no heightened in this Blanche Dubois soft light crap, like full on sunlight.
	Women and men just kind of look dusty.
	That's the only thing that I could say.
	They just like we do.
	We get like this grit in our crevices.
	I don't know exactly what it is.
	I look okay until I'm squinting in the sunlight.
	And then I look like a cracked mirror of youth.
	Right.
	And it's just like, so it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when.
	And this addiction to attention, by God, it's insane.
	Melanie freaking Griffith.
	Post a picture of her in a bikini.
	She's 63 goddamn years old.
	Now listen, I have no problem.
	If you want to be a 63-year-old and run around in a bikini, but for God's sakes, to pose it and to post it.
	And Brooke Shields, who got her first job as a model when she was 10 months old.
	Months! 10 months old and then was part of this, are selected, I'm not wearing any underwear, nothing comes between me and my Calvins when I think she was underage.
	It was really creepy as hell.
	But she's like, well, I'm in my mid to late 50s and I'm posting all these pictures of myself in my bikini because my daughters are just like, you go for it, mom.
	You're just, it's wonderful.
	And I finally feel comfortable in my own body.
	It's like, oh my God, shut up!
	Put on an apron, bake someone something, have some dignity, for God's sakes!
	For God's sakes!
	Put some clothes on, you septuagenarian freaks!
	My God, it's like...
	There's some movie I saw, I can't remember the name of it now, about some teenage guy who's into this like 80-year-old woman and they go to funerals together.
	Oh golly, that's a movie?
	That sounds like a TLC special.
	Oh, it's Harold and Mort, Harold and Mort.
	Oh my god, this like popped into my head and it's a creepy, creepy film like you wouldn't believe, right?
	And... Again, it's not like, I'm not trying to body shame anyone.
	In fact, these women look great and all that.
	But it's like, at what point, at what point do you stop needing all of this validation and approval and envy?
	Because this is what they're doing. Melanie Griffith is not putting her 63-year-old toned body out there because she's just comfortable with her body and proud.
	No, she's trying to evoke envy.
	Like Elizabeth Hurley, posing pictures.
	She's in her 50s.
	Yeah, she looks good.
	I get that. And that sucks for other women whose job it is not to look that good.
	You know, like Elizabeth Hurley, sure she works out for two hours a day.
	That's her job, is to look good.
	I do a lot of philosophy every day because that's my job.
	If somebody paid me to have abs, I'd go trail around Adam Kokesh and get some abs.
	At what point is it enough?
	And I'm saying all of this, like obviously, like just over the last year, you know, like in November last year, also the deep platform already started and all that, like the show is down, down, down.
	Yeah. Right? So I'm not sitting there going, oh my God, who am I when I can't get 7,000 people on a live stream?
	Who am I when I'm not getting this many views on YouTube and Twitter?
	And who am I? Like, I'm still the same person!
	Yeah. They can't take that away from me.
	They can take my audience away from me, but they can't take my identity away from me.
	They can't take my joy away from me.
	Right? So, I mean, I'm just sort of saying, like, I built this show up over 15 years, and then boom, boom, boom, right?
	You start talking, you try and oppose the destruction of the black community by bringing out some facts about George Floyd, and boom, you're out of there, baby!
	And actually, in my longer email, I had a paragraph where I just expressed, you know, it's ridiculous.
	And even within my family, like, they've said things about you that are false, and they brought up a website.
	And you actually mentioned this in one of the debunking of yourselves, like, videos that you did.
	And it was when you were talking to someone who was molested as a child, and you said that some people are, like, not human or something along those lines.
	No, no. I mean, I'll just real briefly on that, right?
	So I said I was talking about...
	It was pedophiles. I'm almost positive.
	So there's two. There's one about a guy who was abused when he was growing up.
	And I said it's really, really important to keep abusers and abusive people away from your children.
	That the entire breeding arena of the species needs to be cleaned the F up from pedophiles and abusers and soul destroyers and addicts.
	Just keep insanely destructive and abusive and molesty people away from your children.
	And of course, that was taken completely out of context, and now I'm into eugenics.
	Right? So yeah, that was one.
	No, the other one was when I was talking about criminality, crime, and I was talking about the fact that you can view the relationship Between criminals and their prey as a predator-prey relationship.
	It's not a particularly original insight, of course.
	I mean, they're called sexual predators, right?
	I mean, and then, of course, and I said, I don't view human...
	There's a way of viewing humanity.
	Like, I don't view humanity as a single species.
	I said, I know they are a single species, but a way of looking at it with predators and prey, like blah, blah, blah, right?
	Because predators and prey usually aren't the same species.
	Like, the lion and the zebra aren't the same species.
	So it was just a loosey-goosey analogy for...
	Predator-prey relationships, criminal victim relationships in human beings.
	And I very clearly said, I know humanity is a single species.
	This is just a way of looking at it.
	And now, of course, I believe that, I don't know, other races are not human.
	Like, whatever. It just became like this nonsense that people make up that anybody who believes the mainstream media, you know...
	If Antifa ends up taking over their entire city, it's kind of hard to feel sorry for them.
	That's the price you pay for believing lies.
	You get to lose your liberties.
	Who am I without a big-ass giant audience?
	Who am I without 10, 20 million views a month?
	I am still who I am.
	And who am I when donations go down?
	I am still who I am.
	Who am I When I have a smaller audience and it's, you know, it's building, it's coming up and so on, a bit shoot and parlor and other places.
	Well, I can't let, like, they can take the platform, but to let them take my identity is kind of ridiculous, right?
	So the reason I'm saying that is not to make this about me, but it's not a matter of if, it is a matter of when.
	Yeah. And it will happen for women, like, It literally is like you go to bed and you're 28 and you wake up and you're 36.
	No, it's true. It's true.
	And I still, you know, I'm at the age where I can either, maybe I'm 30, maybe I'm 22, you know, who knows.
	But I'm not naive to the fact that in a few years, you know, it's going to be very obvious that I'm not 22 or 25 or 27.
	And with that...
	And sorry, especially because you've got your subcutaneous fat down to like a paper-thin level, right?
	Because you're like Miss Low Body Fat, which is great.
	Oh, at this point, at this moment, no, but I'm still very, like, much more lean than the average bear.
	Right, right. And this is something that I think it was Courtney Cox said, it's like, okay, so you get into your 30s, you have a choice.
	And your choice is this.
	Your body can look good or your face can look good, but you can't have it both at the same time.
	Because if your body looks good, then you're very lean, which means your face looks wrinkled, right?
	But if your face looks good, it's because it's a little puffed out, which means you've got a little weight in the hips, right?
	So that's just the way it is.
	And, you know, I do not want you on that one-way ticket to Cougar Town, man.
	That is a bad place to end up.
	I don't want myself on that either.
	And I guess, like...
	Because I can obsess over this, you know, and I can hide from all of the things that I can't decide about, or I choose not to decide about, or whatever the case may be, that's kind of what I always fall back on.
	But I know that the way I fall back on it...
	It's not going to have the same effects, you know, when I'm no longer 27, 28, 30, and so on.
	And of course, as you age, like, you can't do it with the same intensity, which for me, like, I lift heavy and I'm very, very intense in the gym.
	And that will also be something that, like, saddens me when just your body starts to break down.
	You can't do that anymore. Oh, I'll tell you this.
	I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'll tell you this.
	I played a lot of squash when I was younger and I tried picking it up again.
	You can't do it? I tell you, have you ever been so hungry and you got a chicken in front of you, you just ripped the leg off?
	Yeah. Okay, that's squash over 50.
	Really? Yeah, the squash court just reaches up and ripped my fucking leg off.
	And it's not, you know, I've sort of worked back up to it and all that kind of stuff.
	So I sort of went back to tennis and all of that and playing that.
	And it's not that it's impossible.
	It's just that when you don't do it for a while when you're younger, you just kind of bounce back.
	But when you don't do it for a while and you're older, it's like, oh, it's chicken leg gripping time.
	Sorry about that. Yeah, and it's true.
	And like, I guess the reason why I am indecisive about, you know, the major goals of normal people, you know, most people want to get married, most people want to have kids, whether they should is a different story.
	But that tends to be on like most people's like bucket list.
	And I just think, well, you know, by the time I realize that That this isn't fulfilling me in the way that I thought it would for the rest of my life.
	It'll be too late and then the decision is made for me and I can't get married Right, right.
	So here's the thing. You either make up your mind or life makes it up for you.
	Yeah. Right? So you can either say, well, I'm going to wait until something better comes along.
	I'm going to be super Jennifer Aniston-style picky.
	At which point you end up like, Jennifer Aniston welcomes a new addition to her family.
	It's a duh. Oh, that's the saddest thing.
	Yeah, and look at this nonsense.
	Like this dog mom, cat mom thing.
	I mean, I... You're not a mom.
	No, no. You're an animal slaver.
	But anyway, no, and I like pets.
	I like pets, particularly dogs.
	But yeah, they're not.
	You know, anything that eats you when you die, I really have a tough time putting in the category of family.
	You know, unless you're like John Podesta's aunt or something like that, whoever introduced him to that creepy cannibal art he's got in his office.
	Anything that eats you when you die, I'm just going to go out on a limb.
	And that's not family. You know, there's no family which is like, hey, you're looking kind of tired there and they're kind of gathering around with ketchup and forks.
	You know, that's just not family.
	That's just not family.
	That's just, you know, cannibals.
	So, yeah, so you either make your mind up or the decision's going to be made for you by the passage of time and the sagging of everything that currently is zero gravity in your physique.
	Yeah. And also, like, and this is something I've talked to, James, about anyone who I'm very close to, like, knows this fear.
	Yeah. I am afraid that in becoming, here we go back to the uncertainty, in becoming a wife, in becoming a mom, which I want to do with James, I want to have his children.
	Do I personally, myself, want to raise children?
	No. Do I want us to raise them?
	Yes, because I know he'll be a good father and And we'll, you know, have a nice family.
	And I'm just thinking, well, you know, then I'm not a bodybuilder anymore.
	Well, you know, here's the funny thing.
	Let me just stop you for a second there.
	I'm sorry to interrupt. No, no, you're fine.
	Here's the funny thing, Sarah.
	You are the greatest fucking bodybuilder in the world.
	Do you know why? Why?
	Because you're building actual human bodies.
	Oh, that's good.
	That's something he would say.
	You can work your muscles, but no matter how big your fucking biceps are, they're not going off to college without you.
	Look at my glutes!
	Yes, but they're not going to write you letters about how wonderful it is to pick grapes in Queensland.
	Yeah, and in just really behaving the way I've always envisioned myself behaving with a significant other...
	You know, this time with somebody who I emotionally connect to, who I'm not trying to love to fix them.
	You know, oftentimes I think I would try to love someone who's so dysfunctional so hard because I just, I want to fix them.
	You know, that fairy tale of the heroine who tames the beast and that's They're a fairy tale.
	But when you try and put fairy tales in real life, it kind of gets messed up.
	Because the fairy tale for the guy, it's like, oh, I'm going to save the damsel in distress.
	Well, if a girl in real life is in this much distress, she's probably really messed up.
	So you want to stay away from that.
	Do you know when...
	This is kind of an odd question.
	But do you know when the mental health of women in England was the very highest?
	The mental health of women was the very highest?
	Is it within, like, the last hundred years?
	Yeah, just the last hundred years or since it's really been measured, when was the mental health of women the very highest in England?
	I'm just gonna say the Victorian era.
	No, it was actually right after Princess Diana died.
	Really? What do you mean, really?
	Like, you were just talking about the death of fairy tales.
	Look, this girl, beautiful, athletic, great hair, she married the prince.
	All the fantasies that women are supposed to have.
	And then she died like a dog in a tunnel trying to outrun the hounds of vanity in hot pursuit of her.
	This wasn't supposed to happen.
	She was a princess. She married the prince.
	Yeah. Wow. How interesting.
	And women wept themselves into a brief flash of sanity.
	So it's like when we try to take these archetypes, or these tropes, or whatever you want to call them, and look for them in real life, in my case, you know, the beastly man, the brutish man who just needs to be loved enough, you know, and be tamed, and in the case of the man...
	You tame the beast, right?
	It's a beauty and the beast thing, right? Yeah, exactly.
	The prince charming, and only you, only your kiss can wake her up.
	So when we apply these tropes in real life, it's destructive.
	And that's, like, really what I've learned.
	Well, fairies don't exist.
	So fairy tales is a way of guaranteeing lovelessness and an arid existence of delusion.
	Yeah. I mean, what was so interesting about Princess Diana?
	Like, what? What?
	What? She threw herself down some stairs.
	She didn't eat. She got divorced.
	She got passed around.
	I think she ended up with some Muslim guy.
	And she got just kind of passed around.
	And she had a pretty miserable existence.
	And she was manipulative and kind of psychotic and a shopaholic.
	And what was interesting about her?
	Oh, okay. So she did care about landmines.
	I guess that's a good thing.
	And she did hug some AIDS patients.
	I guess that's a good thing. But really, why on earth was she the most famous?
	Photographed and fascinating woman in the entire world because she represented a kind of fantasy of a life without effort.
	That life, that life where you're just pretty and the prince comes along and he scoops you up on his white horse and he marries you and it's televised all over the world and you're on the cover of every magazine and everybody.
	Oh my gosh, can you imagine what a great life that must be?
	Like Meghan Markle, you know, like no one really knew who she was before.
	And I didn't know who she was.
	I had no idea who the hell she was.
	I'm like, oh, okay. Now everyone knows her name.
	Yeah. She lived, you know, that fantasy that we all kind of look for.
	And I don't know why, you know, we like kind of resort to these tropes and wanting it to be our lives.
	Because culture wants us to fail.
	Because who wants us to fail?
	Because culture wants us to be so deluded that we can't be happy.
	Because when we're happy, we can't be controlled.
	And when we're happy, we don't keep buying shit all the time.
	Yeah, I can see that.
	And it starts, you know, very young.
	And I love the Disney movies, you know, what are you going to do?
	But certainly, I was five and talking about, you know, Prince Charming and talking about probably up until I was in my very late teens, just waiting for this person to come and save me from some not too distant sense of truth.
	You're still waiting! Ha ha!
	See, the way that you kill a culture is you raise the expectations of women to an impossible level.
	Yeah, you talked about this before.
	That is exactly how you can destroy, and it's like a silent neutron bomb that goes off in the wombs and eggs of the women.
	Just keep raising the women's standards to the point where men, mere mortal men, cannot possibly.
	I mean, my God, the most attractive man, at least when I was younger, he's still a pretty good looking guy, right?
	Brad Pitt, right? Great body, great talent, great hair, great.
	He's got that face of, like, the soulful thug.
	For some reason, that, like, Jim Morrison's soulful thug face just makes women's nipples go into helicopter mode.
	I don't even know what the hell's going on, but that's because I'm not a woman, right?
	And so, you know, he's not enough.
	Angelina Jolie dumped his ass, right?
	Now he'll be fighting in court for four years.
	Even he's not enough, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, so you really think that just all of this issue that I'm having with just this hesitation to connect physically and just feeling so afraid is just this addiction to living in uncertainty?
	Here's how you have a miserable life.
	Are you ready? Yeah.
	I can do better. I can do better.
	I can do better.
	I can do better. I can do better. I can do better.
	I can do better. And then you run out of the clock.
	And then the great switch occurs in your early to mid-30s where you can't get guys anymore your own age.
	You certainly can't. Because here's the thing.
	When you're young, and you know this, right?
	But when you're young, and you're in the height of your beauty, as you know, your fertility markers, your clear skin, your lustrous hair, your great physique, and you're like, you stride the universe like a goddess, and literally like a goddess, right?
	And you can command, and you can control, and you can get men's attention.
	And this is particularly true in the age of swipe left social media media.
	You know, sex and STD spreading viral apps, right?
	So you have all of this incredible power.
	And I don't begrudge it.
	I think it's fine.
	It's the way nature intended us.
	And that's great. But then what happens is you're like, oh, man, I'm too good for him.
	I'm too good for him. Maybe I'll date him a little bit now.
	He doesn't match me. And I'll go and date.
	I've got all the time in the world.
	And this power will never, ever end.
	Until it does. Until.
	And it's a satanic thing that is being sold to women.
	It literally is satanic because by the time you wake up, you know, I dated this woman.
	It was older than me.
	And she was really at the end of, like, it was like do or die, right?
	Do or die. I won't get into much of the details because I want to make sure we keep this about you.
	But anyway, let's just put it this way.
	I'll be perfectly frank.
	I've always thought I was a great catch.
	I've always thought... Listen, when I was younger, I was a little bit more of a temper and a little bit more...
	Did you look thuggish? I'm sorry?
	Did you look thuggishly handsome like Brad Pitt?
	I had a definite bad boy streak.
	Absolutely. Absolutely.
	A definite bad boy streak.
	And so...
	But I always thought, okay, I'm going to be a good husband.
	I'm going to be a decent provider.
	I'm going to be a great dad. Like that was always my goal, right?
	I mean, I was a kid and I was looking forward down the tunnel of time.
	I thought, oh my gosh, I'm going to be 34.
	When the year 2K comes, I'm sure I'm going to be in an office.
	I'm in a nice suit. I'm in a professional career.
	And I thought that's what I was doing and all of that.
	So I always thought, okay, like you could date other guys, but why?
	Why? Why?
	I guess you could go for someone else if you want, but why?
	And yeah, I'm a good husband.
	I'm a good dad. Great husband, great dad, I think.
	And I remember dating this woman I was in my early 30s.
	She was in my late 30s. She was in her late 30s.
	And she still looked great and all of that.
	And yet, she was really, you know, she didn't like, I don't know, she thought I wasn't quite, I was too emotionally available.
	You know, like, I like men.
	Yeah, like, what's wrong with us?
	Well, no, she was just fussy, right?
	She was fussy like she was 20.
	Uh-huh. And anyway, so we went out for a little bit.
	I got tired of the fussiness and we broke up.
	And she ended up alone, right?
	I mean, that's... She ended up alone?
	Of course she did. Because if she's too fussy in her late 30s for a guy who's good-looking, successful, professional, and, you know, seven years younger, well, good luck.
	Good luck with the over 40 crowd, right?
	Yeah. A woman who you had said that you dated her briefly, but she was older and all she wanted was just babies.
	And you were like, okay, I can't.
	This is too much.
	No, this was the same woman.
	She did want babies. And I said, listen, I'm going through therapy.
	I've just become myself. And if I just become a dad right now, I won't have had enough time being just who I am and all that.
	But I was willing to, you know, I was still young and unwise in the ways of egg death, right?
	So it was the same woman, but she's like, and basically I was her last shot, but it was like, ah, you know, I prefer a man who's just a little bit more reserved.
	I'm like, you know, I don't mean to be, I don't want to put people down.
	I really, really don't want to put people down.
	I really don't.
	I really don't. But sometimes the reality call, it's like, I'm like, are you serious right now?
	Like, I'm 98% of what you want?
	Yeah. But that 2%, you're just going to like...
	And so I know this for a fact, and this is what is relative and relevant to you, Sarah.
	There is someone in your life who wants you to fail.
	They want you to fail.
	And you cannot please them and succeed at the same time.
	There's someone in your life who wants you to fail.
	I invite everyone who's listening to this conversation, put a pause in it.
	Think about, is there anyone in your life who is invested in your failure?
	In other words, if you succeed, something about their life breaks.
	Something about their universe.
	Like, you've got the mom who's like...
	Drudgery.
	Drudgery. Everything's a burden.
	So if you get what you want and you're happy and positive, you're gonna ram into her!
	You're gonna ram into that negativity.
	Yeah and I even told her you know that you know we are official and so on and so forth and if things continue like we're gonna get married soon and like she started like crying and I think it was a combination of just feeling like herself very much a failure because she's always expressed that she's never been treated right by a man like her dad was kind of abusive and her first husband was a heroin addict and my dad Well, you know, he paid the bills and provided in that respect.
	But, you know, he wasn't very nice and he wasn't always emotionally available, which is something that I've just learned to not expect from a man.
	So it's like if they don't have it, I was kind of just, oh, okay, don't care.
	But you understand, you can't please you and her at the same time.
	No. You've got to make a choice. Yeah.
	And she is going to...
	The people who don't know how destructive they are are the most destructive people at all.
	I know that sounds like some bullshit little koan or something from a fortune cookie, but it's really, really true.
	Your mother will sabotage the shit out of your relationship.
	And I don't think specifically, like, intentionally.
	No, no, that's more dangerous.
	Oh, I want her to fail.
	Yeah. No, it's the most dangerous if she has no clue that she's doing it.
	Yeah, and I would say she doesn't have any clue of how Like, enabling of my half-sibling she is, and just enabling of bad behavior, period, that she is.
	Like, even with my father and whatnot.
	Like, when James was over, and again, observing for the first time them together, he's like, oh my god, like, I would never speak to you that way.
	He's like, literally all of that, like, that will never enter our house.
	So he sees it, right?
	He's trying to draw that wolf urine around the den.
	Oh my god. He's like, this is why.
	He's so lovely. He's like, you know, sometimes I wish that your parents didn't kind of begin the cause of all of these issues that you have.
	But then I think to myself, well, no, because she is two years older than me.
	So if she was normal, she probably would have been married by now.
	Not available at 27.
	Okay, that's the path of...
	Let me give you a tiny brief example from my life, right?
	So when I first started writing novels, I was 11 years old.
	I wrote a book called...
	Actually, I'd never finished it.
	It was about half a novel called By the Light of an Alien Sun that my English teacher actually read out to the class until she got to the...
	Saucy parts, in which case she began blushing and everybody began, because you could completely identify the girl in the class who was in my novel.
	It was really, really obvious, and I liked her quite a bit.
	Anyway, so she helped me with some of my early novels, and she and I, we did have a fairly decent bond over my writing, right?
	So... I wrote that science fiction novel and then I wrote a novel about the First World War called The Jealous War and then I wrote a novel about my time in boarding school which I couldn't quite finish and then I started writing a novel later on Revolutions which is the first one that I think was really good and complete.
	Anyway, so the point is that she, her father and her uncle were both famous writers in Germany.
	And from what she said, they had been ripped off by people copying their work.
	So she was always, always, always insisting.
	That I get my copyright, that I hang on to my books, that I don't show them to anyone, that I make sure I hold them close.
	And I still have in my basement something I sent to myself, I don't know, over 30 years ago, which was a FedEx package, which was unopened to show ownership.
	And I did that as a result of my mother insisting that I hold on to my copyright and I not release anything and I make sure that...
	And what did I end up doing with my books?
	Nothing. Well, my books are at free domain.
	Oh, okay. I thought you were talking about the one you wrote when you were 11.
	Oh, yeah. No, I didn't do anything with the book I wrote when I was 11.
	Okay. So I have no – give them away.
	Give them away. Now, that was tough.
	Now, if I had listened to my mother – and listen, this is not out of my mother's malevolence or anything like that because I'm sure that in the past this was really, really important and so on.
	But it was a tough barrier for me to overcome this hoarder stuff and to just let it all go out for free and all of that kind of stuff, right?
	And, you know, the books now have been downloaded and I assume read to some degree like 10 million times.
	That's insane. 10 million works of philosophy, literary works of philosophy out there in the world, right?
	That's amazing.
	Right now, of course, that would never have happened if I had charged for all of them and so on, right?
	And I was telling them and I was charging for them and I decided to just give them away for free.
	Now, my mother was not in my life at that time, of course, but if she had been, she would have gone insane about that stuff.
	She would have gone insane. And if I had listened to her, the show would not have grown in the way that it did.
	And I had someone in my life say, before I got married, I don't really want to get to know your wife.
	Yeah. Because, I mean, your fiancé, because, I mean, you're just going to get divorced anyway, and I just don't want to get attached to someone that you're going to get divorced.
	And I'm like, welcome to your show called Not Being In My Life.
	Yeah. People want to be right more than they want to be happy.
	It's a fundamental fact of human nature, right?
	They want to be right more than they want to be happy.
	That's why superstitions exist and the anti-rational aspects of culture.
	And so if someone thinks that you're wrong and you won't succeed and you can't, if you are succeeding and it turns out that they're wrong, they don't want to be wrong.
	So they will sabotage you in order to get their confirmation bias.
	They absolutely will.
	Yeah, and I do that to myself, you know, as we talk.
	No, no. It was done to you.
	Nobody just wakes up and starts punching themselves in the face, Sarah.
	Come on. This was done to you.
	Your success is going to come at the brutal expense of people in your life, and you've got to identify that if you want to be happy.
	Yeah. And, like, it's sad because I very much feel like, and I've talked to James about this, that, like...
	I don't know what to do with these people because it's just like- Sure you do.
	Now you do. Now you do.
	Sure you do. Sure you do.
	Just keep, you know, my distance, I suppose.
	Oh, keep my distance.
	That was kind of funny. You suddenly sounded like Princess Diana a little bit there.
	Oh, did I? No, listen.
	This is the brutal and hard choice that you have when you have dysfunctional people in your life.
	Yeah. And it's funny because we were just talking about Meghan Markle, and I saw her in a show I watched a little bit of called Suits.
	And there's this older tough guy, boss, lawyer guy, and then there's this young guy.
	And this young guy's roommate is a drug dealer.
	And the older guy says to the younger guy, cut him loose, cut him loose.
	You want to have a future? Cut these losers loose.
	You cut them loose. That's your choice.
	You can hang around with these dregs or you can have a future, but you can't have both.
	And he was just like, boom, boom, boom, right?
	And I was just reading about a minor landmine that I stepped on in my naive days where I thought people actually cared about protecting children rather than exploiting and abusing them.
	But, you know, I got into massive trouble, oh gosh, 12 years ago, whatever it is now, right, about this whole defooing thing, right?
	Funny story. Turns out Matthew McConaughey did not talk to his mother for eight years.
	Right? He's just written this autobiography.
	I haven't read it because I don't particularly care what makes an actor tick because usually they're pretty empty inside and it's all a show.
	Oh, I guess that's why Logan interviewed him.
	He just interviewed him. I didn't watch it because I don't care.
	Yeah, I mean, he does a lot of sit-ups.
	Good for him, right? But his mother was...
	Leaking personal details to the press.
	And his mother would get the – this is when he first became famous.
	His mother would have tabloids over and show the house that he grew up in and say, oh, here's where I caught him in bed with such and such a girl.
	And here's where he was in the shower.
	And I caught him in the shower. And you know what he was doing in the shower as a teenage boy, right?
	And he's like, mom, stop doing it.
	And she wouldn't – she first denied it.
	Oh, I didn't talk to them. And then he eventually would admit it, but she kept doing it.
	And he just – right?
	Cut her loose. Jennifer Aniston didn't talk to her mother for like a decade.
	And there are other people who've separated from parents.
	And nobody's sitting there saying, oh my god, you're talking about this?
	Man, you're running a cult. Yeah, when I read that about you, I thought it was really off the ball.
	Yeah, you see, not having destructive people in your life is running a cult.
	Whereas, of course, a cult is actually people who say you have to have destructive people in your life.
	If you can't leave your family, your family's a cult.
	Yeah. It's all projection, right?
	It's all projection, right?
	Plus, I never told anyone to leave their family, by the way, just saying it was physically possible to do so, which is a true statement, right?
	And, like, I've talked, like, I have talked to these people, you know, so many times, and I pointed things out and explained and, you know, as nicely as I can that this is enabling behavior.
	And, like, literally just insofar as my half-brother, who's 40, like, living in the house, I told her, I'm like, these are the three things that are going to happen because I know how...
	You know, this family works.
	He is going to live here permanently.
	He's going to go on disability.
	And then he is going to self-destruct and will not be here anymore.
	And two out of those three things have happened.
	And just everyone just goes about the day.
	And my dad, very much like me, I suppose, obsesses about building things outside.
	He's very talented at building things.
	And he's a jack of all trades, master of all of them.
	And just ignores everything.
	And then my mom just ruminates about all of the things that she has to do because if she doesn't do them, where is he going to go?
	And then you have the depressed and emotionally not capable, physically not capable adult child who doesn't want help living there as well.
	So it's like, what do you do with these people?
	Like, what do you even do? And I remember James saying, like, yeah, so if and when we have kids, and if this kind of goes in the direction that it's logically going, which is what we say when we refer to, you know, getting married, like, I wouldn't really want them, like, around the kids a lot.
	I'm like, oh, no, no, don't, me either.
	Me either. Don't worry.
	Well, okay, but how are you going to enforce these boundaries?
	Well, I would just not bring them over.
	Have you never heard of the drop-by?
	Yeah, I wouldn't A, just leave them in the company of these people without being monitored, but I would...
	Yeah, what would I do?
	Yeah. I guess part of me hopes that the situation will resolve itself.
	And then when kids come into the picture, those issues won't exist anymore.
	Are you saying that they've given up on trying to destroy kids like that was just a youthful hobby and they're not going to do it anymore?
	I suppose the issue as to why it is so dangerous, as you said before, is that they don't understand that the behavior is very damaging.
	Hence me being 27 and still trying to work through these issues.
	Oh yeah, listen, if my daughter's 27 and she's not...
	That's the only topic of conversation that we would have.
	That's all. And whatever we would need to do, whatever would happen, right?
	Yeah, it's just strange to me that all these people...
	Live in very clear dysfunction, and it's just never addressed.
	And I suppose that's why, I do not know if maybe I overthink things or overcomplicate things, but I suppose that's why I'm just so, no, like, I need to make sure.
	You are a people pleaser.
	No, no, let me make the case.
	I'm not trying to define you, and I could be completely wrong, right?
	Just so you know, right? Yeah.
	And it's a beautiful thing.
	To be a people pleaser is a beautiful thing.
	Because, you know, people got to knit the fabric of society together, right?
	But of course it means that you're susceptible to the influence of other people, right?
	Yeah. Believe it or not, I'm a people pleaser too.
	You know, it's just that I also have to please the truth and I try not to tear myself apart trying to do both, right?
	I have a sort of Final port of call, which is the truth.
	And if that annoys people, well, you know, it's too bad, right?
	It's really a shame, but I can't do much about that.
	But the reason I'm saying this, so the people pleaser, you can't be in demand without being a people pleaser.
	And as we talked about earlier, right, one of the things that you want to be is in demand.
	Now, one of the reasons why you're indecisive, I would argue, is that you want to please...
	Both your future self and your parents' history.
	And you can't.
	Because those two are opposite directions.
	Yeah, exactly. I don't want a relationship like my parents.
	I've always said that, like, if it's like that or be alone, like, I'd rather be alone.
	So I guess that's what I'm, you know...
	Holy false dichotomy, Batman.
	Okay, so many years ago, I guess, and somebody will send me the link for this, and I really, really appreciate the bulk brain of the listeners.
	So many years ago, when I was a teenager, I was in my early mid-teens, I read a book, a novel about anorexia.
	Which I really found quite fascinating and I remember a couple of bits from it.
	The two bits I remember was the woman forcing her, the girl, she was a teenage girl, forcing herself to run around a track and she said her body sweated like it was weeping or her body began to weep or something like that.
	But the reason it all started was because, and of course there was lots of backstory, although they didn't get the level of trauma correct.
	To me anorexia almost always comes out of sexual abuse.
	But anyway... The girl was in school, and she was going from her locker to her math class, and the math class had a kind of mean teacher.
	And she's getting close to the math class.
	She's just on time, and she realizes she's forgotten her math book in her locker.
	And she stalls. She just completely stops, and she says, Oh, my God.
	If I go into the class, I'll be on time, but I'll get in trouble for not having my math book.
	But if I go back to my locker to get my math book, I would be late for class and I would get in trouble.
	And she just kind of had a little breakdown and sacked down and wouldn't get up.
	Because she couldn't please anyone in that situation.
	She was going to end up in a situation where she was going to get in trouble no matter what.
	Yeah. Now, I don't want to speak for James, but it sounds pretty clear.
	Like, if he met your parents at a dinner party, he wouldn't be like, let's stay in touch.
	No. Hell, if you met your parents at a dinner party, you wouldn't be like, hey, I don't have enough of people who feel like Atlas holding up the entire planet with knees buckling and blood dripping down their faces.
	They go, oh.
	So, let's stay in touch, right?
	The dinner party question with regards to your family origin is really important if you just met them now.
	Yeah. Would you stay in touch?
	Would you be interested? You just met them now.
	No history with them, no bond, no nothing.
	You just met them now.
	What would you do? Well, you'd probably have an interesting conversation with James if you met your parents at a dinner party.
	You'd be like, wow, that was odd or that was kind of intense.
	But you wouldn't sit there and say, let's be buds.
	No, I wouldn't.
	That's important. No, I would not.
	And I do find it interesting that he said the way you described it is completely accurate.
	So that kind of made me feel better in a way because I think you are tempted to question, you know, Am I being too judgmental of the behavior?
	Is it just because it's my family and you see the good, the bad, and the ugly?
	Is it just because I personally am very sensitive to these types of, like, depressive and bipolar bouts of behavior because I grew up with it?
	You know, is it just me over-exaggerating?
	What is it? And he's like, nope, nope, completely accurate.
	So it is something that is seen.
	That really anybody I would challenge could come to dinner with me and not really be given any sort of preface as to what they'll experience.
	And they will probably have the same reaction as they get in the car and say, whoa, I'm exhausted.
	This is an exhausting group of people to be around.
	And I'm like, yeah, mm-hmm.
	Yep. And he's like, well, it kind of all makes sense now because I've obviously, you know, we've known each other and we've been friends for many years and we've tried to be more serious for many years.
	So it's like I understand just that sense of that you seem to live with because it's just like dripping off of your mom as she interacts with the world.
	And I said, yes, that is very much...
	One of my fears as well is becoming my mother and living the life of my mother, saying, well, you know, I couldn't find a good guy.
	Oh, no, no, that's not the real risk.
	No, no, that's not the real risk, because your mother became a mother.
	Yeah, but she says she'd rather be alone.
	Like, what she always says is, you know, I've always been abused by men my whole life, and so if I had known that this is what marriage would be, I would just be alone.
	Do you know what Jung says about...
	The most powerful effect on people?
	What has the most effect on a human being?
	Is it, I'm assuming, like what they hear growing up?
	Like their parents? He says the most powerful influence on a human being is the unlived life of the mother.
	Oh, that's fascinating.
	Really? Do you know what my mother wanted to do?
	She wanted to be a public intellectual.
	I'm not fucking kidding.
	I shouldn't laugh.
	No way! At least that didn't have a big effect on me or anything.
	That's amazing! My mom wanted to write a book about her experiences called One Woman's Century and she was planning it for years.
	Never wrote it, of course, because the only way you write a book is if you absolutely have to.
	People who want to write a book, it's like, I want to be an astronaut.
	Yeah, yeah, okay, good. But...
	No, my mom wanted to write and to speak and to explain the world to the world.
	Right, so the unlived life of the mother.
	Now, your mother wants to be what?
	Alone! And what's she aiming you, what's she programming you to be?
	Alone! There you go.
	Oh my god, that's literally amazing!
	That's all I have heard her say since I was five years old.
	And she would pick out, you know, oh, cooking all the time.
	If I was alone, and I mean, I love you kids, but if I didn't have you, I would just make, like, something in bulk and just eat it, the same thing every day, because I hate cooking all the time.
	Like, literally everything, it would go back to, if I was alone, you know, this is how I would do things.
	Oh my God, that's incredible.
	Yep. Wow.
	That's important for people.
	You've got to look at what your parents wanted but never got or never achieved or never worked for.
	Yeah. That's the biggest weakness that people have.
	That's the biggest influence that tends to program people's lives is the unlived life.
	I never thought about that.
	And I've always said I don't want to be my mom.
	Like, I don't want to have a relationship like her.
	I don't want to, you know, interact with the world the way she does, just so negatively.
	Yeah, see, if I met your mom, I'd probably say something like, hey, asshole, stop wishing your kids were dead.
	You freak of nature.
	The hell's the matter with you?
	If you have those thoughts, go to a counselor.
	Go to a psychiatrist.
	Go drink in a bar.
	Go to a fucking witch doctor.
	I don't care. But don't say that shit to your kids.
	What are you, crazy? What's the matter with you?
	And, like, I've talked to her about it, too.
	And I've tried to get her to go to therapy.
	And, you know, I expressed it's not bad.
	Like, there's nothing wrong. Like, I've spoken very openly about my experiences, you know, with therapy.
	No, she's not going to go. No, she doesn't because she straight up says to me, no, no, I don't need that.
	I go to the Lord. And I don't want...
	No, no, she's a professional minister of doom and gloom from the kingdom of woe is me.
	Like, it's just so ridiculous.
	I go to the Lord and the Lord says, oh man, could you go somewhere else?
	This is really bringing me down.
	I mean, I'm eternal and you're dragging me down.
	Oh my God, but that is how she is.
	Like, she always just says, oh...
	You know, the only man who's ever treated me right is the Lord.
	And it's okay because in heaven, like, your father can't get to me anymore.
	Oh my God. Isn't it insane?
	So no wonder I'm just like, oh, no one can know me, you know, intimately.
	No one can know all of me.
	I can't be connected to anyone because it's just better to be alone.
	Until Jesus says, hey, honey, I'm the one supposed to be on the cross, not you.
	Yeah. I stole that from James, which is great.
	She's very much a martyr.
	She's always been that way.
	Right. So it goes back to...
	And so she controls people through weakness.
	Right? Right. Okay.
	And indecisiveness is also weakness, and you control people through the same mechanism.
	Okay. So, I guess the big, you know, million-dollar question, how do, like, how do you not do that?
	Well, then you have to have value in yourself.
	You have to have value in yourself.
	Uh-huh. Through not being wanted.
	That's the question which we've got to sit on here.
	Right? Listen, do you know how happy my daughter is with my deplatforming?
	Very? Because she gets so much fun with you?
	Mostly, right?
	Mostly, because she's like, you know, you seem...
	More available. It's not like, okay, so I lost a million YouTube subscribers and half a million Twitter subscribers and stuff like that, but my wife still loves me, my daughter still loves me, and that's kind of what matters, right?
	It's not like these strangers were going to come and hold my hand as I skateboarded to the great hereafter at the end of my life, right?
	Yeah. I mean, I know you'll be over helping me change my elderly diapers.
	But no, you're going to go half your life, and I want you to go half your life, and that's great.
	But it's the people in my life who are going to stick around, right?
	And I thought about that.
	I thought, well, if I'm just alone, it's very possible to take care of yourself when you're old.
	No, it's not. No, it's really not.
	Okay, I do want to come back to that, but I just want to throw this just for you to think about.
	Is it appropriate to say, I want to have children because I want to be taken care of when I'm older?
	Is that an appropriate way to look at children?
	No. Okay, that's what I thought.
	No, however, however, a side effect of you being a great parent is they will want to take care of you with their own accord.
	Yeah. I mean, my parents sucked, and I'm still just like, I gotta go over there and make sure, you know...
	No, you don't. No, no one's had emotional break.
	No, you don't. No, you don't.
	You really, really don't.
	You can choose to.
	You can if you want, but you don't have to.
	So, Sarah.
	Yes. What value...
	Are you bringing in 33 years when you're 60?
	And you're creaky, and you may have had some, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger did a couple of too many deep knee bends with 450 pounds on each shoulder, and now the guy can barely use his knees, right?
	Yeah. So there is going to be, I hate to say it, right?
	You look fantastic now.
	It's entirely possible there's going to be a little bit of a price to pay down the road.
	What does Tiger Woods say about what you wish he knew when he was younger?
	He's like, I wish I hadn't run so much because my knees are hell.
	Guy was running like 30 miles a week and his knees are like, you know, two pieces of Lego bouncing around in a bag, right?
	So what value are you bringing to the table post-hotness?
	Yeah, and I've literally thought about that.
	I haven't phrased it in that way, obviously, but I thought about it, well, you know, like Forrest Gump, when he's just like, well, I just stopped.
	What did he have left?
	He had a lot left, and he went off and he did a lot of things, so I've asked myself that, like, if I just stop, or if I have to stop...
	Stop what? Wait, sorry, stop what?
	Like, if I have to stop, like...
	Who am I? I have to stop lifting and I have to stop doing the thing that very much is my identity because it allows me to be wanted and it allows me to look good and feel good and feel like I have accomplished something.
	Because I'm quite strong. I don't look very...
	People think of a bodybuilder who is a female.
	They don't think of something very feminine looking.
	I'm very strong and I still maintain.
	Yeah, you're not one of these female bodybuilders.
	It's like, oh, so you're wearing a bikini top.
	Why again? Yeah, I know.
	Just for if anyone cares.
	So there's bikini and then there's the figure division.
	And I do the figure division.
	That's my division. And then it starts getting freaky looking as you go above that.
	Anywho. But I've thought of that, and I'm like, what will I have?
	And I've spoken to James about this, and he's like, well, you know, the way that we're going now, you'll have me, and I'll love you, and we'll probably have children, and we'll have our own family, and, you know, we'll establish these children.
	No, but that's not value you'll bring to the table.
	That's the need a guy has for you.
	And the two are not completely separate, right?
	What do you have?
	Post-hotness.
	What value do you bring to the table when you're old and gray?
	You're asking me?
	Yeah. Okay.
	Well, I would say...
	A guy will put up with an indecisive girl if she can bench press 240.
	What about when you cut?
	Do you mean to James or like in general?
	Let's start with to James.
	Okay. So you are post-hotness.
	Yeah. Okay? Why is he still there?
	Because I have demonstrated for 33 years that I am loyal to him.
	We have a history together, so we have established that we want to be with each other.
	We've been through each other through the good and the bad.
	I have demonstrated to him that I care about him.
	What else would...
	I guess loyalty, if you're with someone for 33 years, I would say loyalty is a big thing.
	Well, when did you first meet him?
	I met him, we met in 2016, the summer of 2016.
	So he's had close on half a decade of not exactly the opposite of loyalty, but not far from it, right?
	Yeah, it's interesting that you said that.
	Because now I just feel like I want him to just feel so secure, like, with us.
	Like, I don't want him to ever feel like if I don't pick up the phone, it's because I've changed my mind.
	Well, no, but you've got a lot of undoing to do there, right?
	Yeah, yes, yes, I recognize that.
	So you have to be...
	Super 100% loyal, which is very tough for you, right?
	Because of the overthinking and the addiction to being uncertain and so on, right?
	Okay, so a lot of the things that you talked about were, well, we've spent a lot of time together.
	We have a history together, right?
	Hey, you know who else has a history together?
	Your parents. So no, simply being in proximity does not mean you give value.
	Okay. Well, we have wonderful conversations.
	Like, we obviously have the same interests and we have the same worldview, so there will not be any difficulty in raising children who aren't insane, you know, leftists.
	So, this is a very puzzling question.
	What would, like, a good answer look like, I suppose?
	Like, what are some things that you should be able to give to your partner after 33 years?
	So loyalty...
	I've always thought...
	Just, like, upbeatness.
	I don't know how else to say it, but just, like, positivity.
	Flightiness! And encouragement.
	No! Well, no, that's upbeat.
	Birds fly. They beat their wings and they go up.
	You're so funny. No, but just, like, I'm very positive towards him and I'm always encouraging him and there's no reason that he should, for him to feel like he won't succeed because he's going to.
	Well, no, he hasn't succeeded with you, which is the number one thing in his life, right?
	Yeah, I understand that.
	Why he would feel insecure about his ability to succeed if you know the one thing that he's really No, look, you're both addicted to your uncertainty.
	I mean, let's not let James off the hook completely here.
	There's something about maybe it's the high status thing or whatever, but you are both addicted to your insecurity.
	So then the question is, and listen, I'll tell you a funny little story, right?
	So when I was young, I was about 21 or 22.
	I was in theater school and I was home for March break or something like that.
	And a friend of mine and I from theater school, like I would go to nightclubs and I was a good dancer and of course I was a good looking guy and all of that, right?
	And so I would meet girls and all of that and it was pretty, I wouldn't say easy, like oh easy, easy, easy, because you know, I was always still, you know, you're always aiming high, always aiming high, right?
	Yeah. And anyway, so a friend of mine and I, we decided to go to a very cool nightclub As total geeks.
	And now, we knew we couldn't get in.
	We knew we couldn't get in as total geeks, right?
	So we had to smuggle in the clothes and the horn-rimmed glasses and the hair grease, right?
	And we spent the entire evening there absolutely nerding out to n-dimensional Star Trek 9 degrees.
	We danced badly.
	We went up to women who were ferociously attractive with absurd overconfidence.
	And it was an incredibly memorable and enjoyable evening to see what it's like to not be attractive.
	Yeah, that's amazing.
	And we went up to, we didn't just do it to girls, we did it to the guys too.
	Like all the cool bros, the nightclub bros with like their shades on, even though it's Corey Hart sunglasses at night crap, right?
	Looking totally cool. We just go up, hey guys, how you doing?
	What are you up to? What are you talking about?
	And you could see them like, oh shit.
	I've got a nerd burr on me.
	Peel it off, right?
	That's a step away.
	Oh, it's like the wingman who's shooting down my plane.
	Yeah. And it was really, really interesting to be unattractive for an evening, right?
	Yeah. You should try it.
	And go where? No, don't go all rubber bones on me.
	You absolutely can figure this out.
	I remember working up north with a girl.
	I remember working up north with a woman.
	And we had to go into town, but I had to wait for an hour and a half for her to put her face on.
	I'm like, what? You're 21 years old.
	You can't go into town without makeup?
	No, I cannot go into town without makeup.
	I'm like, but, but, come on.
	Yeah. Right? So who are you if you're not generating desire?
	Yeah. If you're not being wanted.
	It's fascinating. Because it's going to happen and you better be prepared for it or you're going to end up with your mother.
	What's the burden? The burden is she needs to devalue everyone in her life so they don't see how little value she brings to the table.
	Wow. Wow.
	So that you feel insecure around your mom's bond, then you reproduce that insecurity for James' bond so that you never sit there and say, what the hell are you bringing to the table that's positive, mom?
	Wow. Yeah, that's true.
	Wow, that's really interesting.
	I never thought about that with my mother.
	Because time is going to beat up your hotness, like me in nerd glasses in a biker bar.
	Yeah. And if you don't have...
	Like, this is the Me Too thing I talked about way back with Robin Williams' death, right?
	The one that seemed to piss off Joe Rogan.
	No end. But anyway. Who are you?
	What value do you bring outside of the show?
	Outside of the muscles?
	Outside of the tits and ass?
	And outside of the prettiness and outs?
	Like, what do you bring?
	And I guess that, like...
	I got tired of doing that like on dates, you know, like being whatever that is, you know, that you are in the very beginning before you really know each other.
	And I just got tired of doing that.
	Oh, and I bet you you're like some Japanese whale ship with the harpoon of lust.
	Just got one.
	It definitely, and women will not say this as frankly as I will, but it feels very, very good to be desired.
	And sometimes, and I'm sure to an extent women relate to this, sometimes it's to the point where you're just like, Can I not just go to the grocery store?
	Because men are very vocal in certain areas of the country and they'll say what they think and they'll follow you to the grocery store and they'll follow you to your car.
	No, it is. Here's the thing, though.
	And listen, I sympathize with that, and I hate that about men.
	I think for a man, first of all, look for a ring.
	Secondly, look if the woman is dressed up to the point where she might be approachable.
	And third, just do a real distant flyby.
	Like, hey, how you doing? Or, you know, I don't know, make a little conversation in the line or something.
	But if the woman is not warming up to you, then just leave it, man.
	And that way it's really important.
	But here's the thing, right? So this is the great trick, right?
	So for women, to be wanted is not that hard.
	To be kept, that's a whole different thing.
	I agree. I guess I've never experienced what it's like to be in a relationship where I'm not trying to love someone hard enough to fix them.
	I guess, yeah, you're laughing at that.
	No, which means that your love is kind of an insult.
	Right? Because, listen, I'm only going to love you if you're broken.
	I've literally, oh golly, I've literally said in jest, well half jest, to just some of my boys at the gym, that if I find a man attractive, it's almost like an insult, because that means you're really messed up.
	Or like that girl, sorry, the woman I was dating who was seven years older than me.
	Do you know who she found really attractive?
	You wouldn't know this.
	Sorry, it's a completely stupid question.
	I don't know. David Beckham.
	He's... I mean, yeah, he's good-looking.
	He's a good-looking guy, if you don't mind the crazy-ass Louvre from Hell tattoos all over his body.
	Yeah, he's a good-looking guy.
	The guy stubbles up well.
	He's got a nice head of hair. Like, he's a good-looking guy, right?
	And she would...
	Oh, she's like, that's a really good-looking guy.
	It's like, yeah, he's...
	You're never meeting him. You're never going to meet him.
	It's like, I think Sandra Bullock is quite pretty, except for the fact that she and Cate Blanchett seem to use circumcision foreskin-based face creams, which seems kind of satanic and predatory upon mutilated children.
	But nonetheless, a charming and attractive actress, right?
	You know what? And I remember when I was younger.
	This is the insane thing that we have about dating, right?
	I remember when I was younger. Let's say Sandra Bullock, right?
	Sandra Bullock. Got married, right?
	And do you know what I would think? Aw.
	Like, what, I have a chance here?
	Like, oh, that means she's off the market for me.
	It's like, no, reality means she's off the market for you because you're never going to meet her, right?
	But we have this thing, and this is part of the...
	The insane standard thing, I mean, you know, there's a biological phenomenon, I can't remember what it's called, but it's when animals don't know when something is too much, right?
	So birds like to sit on the biggest egg because it usually means the strongest hatchling, right?
	And so if they take an ostrich egg and put it into a bird's nest, the bird will sit on that at the expense of its own offspring, right?
	Super stimulus, something like that, right?
	And it's when you don't know something is too much.
	And we have that, of course.
	We're exposed to physically perfect, photoshopped, they got a team working on them, all this kind of stuff.
	We're exposed continually to physically perfect specimens, genetic freaks, who, again, it's their job.
	They have a whole team.
	I mean, how much does Kim Kardashian get paid for not having a second plate of pasta?
	About a bazillion dollars.
	Hey, pay anyone a bazillion dollars, they'd probably be able to not have that second plate of pasta, right?
	Yeah. We're continually exposed to this endless parade of physically perfect people, right?
	Look good from every angle, right?
	And we see this, of course, on movies, on television, on magazines, newspapers, for people with pornography.
	You know, you can't have any weird lumpen killer whale ass parts hanging off your body.
	Generally, you've got to look good from, I guess, just about every angle, including some entirely unusual and probably unholy ones.
	And so... We just get exposed to this perfection all the time.
	And then, well, then you just meet a human.
	You meet an actual real-life human being whose job it is.
	I remember, oh, there's some movie with Denzel Washington.
	He plays a pilot. And at the beginning, he's with this woman who's got this ass you could use as a stepladder.
	Right? I mean, literally, like, she's got this thin waist, and then it looks like her butt is sneezing two basketballs or something like that, right?
	It's like, that is not human.
	That is not natural. I mean, again, it's genetic freaks, and there's that Brazilian bum-bum contest and all that.
	And it's like, yeah, it's like the narrow waist and the big ass, right?
	The narrow waist and the big tits, right?
	I mean, this is just not the way that most...
	Bodies go. And yes, occasionally it does happen, blah, blah, blah, blah, in which case you get OnlyFans and all of that genetic perfection doesn't get passed along because you get used up and broken and then you end up not being able to be a mom or whatever it is, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, I just want to sort of point out this physical perfection stuff and this is why I get sort of mad.
	If you're an elderly woman and you've got a great figure, keep that shit to yourself because it's just making people feel bad.
	You're just making people feel bad because that's your job.
	It's your job. Right?
	I mean, lawyers don't sit there and say, I'm really fucking good at the law, man.
	I'm going to post all the time how, really, I'm better at the law than you am.
	I'm better in the law than you and you and you.
	You suck at the law and you suck.
	Dude, I'm not a lawyer.
	It's not my job. Like, I get it.
	You got a great figure and a great body because it's your job.
	And it's now become your neurotic obsession, right?
	I got to tell you, and I'm not putting you in this category as a whole, but when I see...
	Both men and women with great figures, I think body dysfunction.
	I think mental problem.
	I think something's not quite...
	I mean, you're in the gym world, right?
	Something's not quite right here.
	Yeah. And James and I even have talked about this because he's into the gym as well, you know, but not as much as me.
	And he likes powerlifting.
	And we've talked about guys who, one of whom I know quite well, who squat like 600 pounds for like five.
	Like they go up and down with six.
	This is a 200 pound man squatting 600 pounds on his shoulder five times.
	And he's like, oh wow, like how do you even do that?
	And I told him like, honestly, my dear, you have a shit ton of mental problems.
	Well, and usually a whole bunch of steroids.
	Yeah, that as well.
	So, it's very true.
	And you had mentioned that a lot of times there's like a lot of drugs involved.
	And not always, you know, there are people who are just freakishly strong and whatnot.
	But certainly, like, one of the owners of the gym, he's not even 50.
	He had like a heart attack.
	He had to have open heart surgery, you know.
	So, I mean, same thing happened to Schwarzenegger.
	He had to have his entire chest cracked open.
	And it's like, yeah, it's great that you can lift three times your body weight with your knees.
	But let's have a stair climbing contest in 15 years and see who can make it up, right?
	And I mean, in my neck of the woods, like the figure sports where literally you're just talking about your body from an objective point of view, just kind of coming full circle.
	Now, from the beginning of the conversation with my monologue, just this sense of You know, like, your body's just seen as an object, and it's just kind of seen as this thing that...
	No! Absolutely no!
	Sorry! Your body's not being seen as an object.
	You are presenting your body as an object.
	Yeah! You can't play victim in this one, right?
	Yes, I will absolutely.
	You know, it's funny. I'm a woman with a 34 double D chest and I walk into a restaurant topless and everyone just objectifies me.
	Because I'm like teeny tiny, so no.
	Whatever, right? But I understand the reference.
	Yes. So let me rephrase.
	No, it's not teeny tiny. Conservative.
	Efficient. Yes, I like that better.
	Conservative. You know, you have a chaste bosom.
	I guess that's what I can tell you.
	You have an aristocratic, respectful, and conservative.
	Understated! Subtle!
	I'm going to use that now.
	I mean, behind, that's a different story.
	Oh, you have the stepladder? Yeah, all right.
	Yeah, that's just, I'm very hourglass, no, actually more pear-shaped, I suppose, but my shoulders are very broad and they create like a nice hourglass Create the illusion.
	But yeah, so I suppose going back to that, the nature of what I do is you're kind of presenting yourself to the people at the gym and, you know, who you're just kind of talking to about your biceps and your glutes, whatever, as just, you know, just this thing, just this object.
	So I guess that's kind of where the sense of, like...
	Like, what am I for in this way?
	You know, I've just thought about that.
	Like, if I'm not just an object, you know, because I don't want to be that.
	So it's like, what is like the healthy balance?
	And like, what am I for?
	I don't know. Am I making sense?
	Listen, you are making perfect sense.
	And you are right at the core of just about the most powerful issue in life.
	Okay. And what is it?
	What is your value?
	Right? Everybody has to ask this question, and you don't ever get just one answer in your life.
	I understand. What is your value?
	If you are certain and secure in your value, you can stand just about any storm.
	Okay. And I'll know what different parts of myself should experience, what my emotions should feel like when I'm with someone who I'm in a relationship with.
	Okay, so now I'm afraid I've got to give you the girly sticker because we went from what is your value to how do I feel?
	And I'm afraid that is just too girly for me.
	I can't get there with you as yet.
	And I'm sure that's very, very important, but I'm going to have to do it up a little, just for a minute or two more, and then we'll get to the how do you feel about it stuff.
	No, but what value do you have?
	Now, here's what's tragic, right, Sarah, is that when you were a child, you should never have had to answer that question.
	Yeah. But you did, unfortunately, because of dysfunctional parenting.
	Like the unconditional love, the bonding, the worship.
	My daughter doesn't have to perform for me.
	She doesn't have to bring me value.
	Right? That's my job as the parent.
	Now, I mean, I can't go from like zero to 100% by the time she turns 18.
	I've got to kind of lift that up as we go forward.
	But if you as a child never have to ask...
	Yeah. Yeah. My life would be this.
	Yeah. Yeah. No, and I had the same thing.
	My mother basically believed that she was going to be Meryl Streep or something if she was some famous intellectual or whatever.
	She wasn't tied down with the kids, right?
	And that's tragic because then she got neither, right?
	I mean, she didn't end up being a good mom or become a famous...
	At least she could have become a famous intellectual or something.
	That would have been interesting, but she didn't even...
	Right? So what value are you bringing?
	Right now, the answer is, to some degree, not all, right?
	To some degree, the answer is youth and beauty, sexual attractiveness, and all of that stuff, right?
	And that's, I'm not saying, there's nothing wrong with that.
	I'm not like, oh, you've got to dress like, you know, you're a burka, you've got to wear the beekeeper or be a nun.
	I'm not saying it. There's nothing wrong with being attractive.
	There's nothing wrong with being pretty.
	There's nothing wrong with being sexy.
	These things are all fine things.
	Nothing wrong with them. But they will not last your life.
	No. And the value that I feel from them will only last as long as they're, you know, as intense and obvious, you know, as they are now.
	Well, the more, yeah, the more valuable the man is to you as you age, the more he will reject you for a younger model.
	Mm-hmm. Right? Because he's alpha, right?
	You want the alpha guy. Okay, well, the alpha guy, like, who's Brad Pitt dating now?
	Some model in her 20s who's in some weird, creepy, European open relationship from hell or whatever it is, right?
	But he's not sitting there saying, oh, you know, I'd really like a pear-shaped woman in her 50s.
	It's just not going to happen, right?
	Unfortunately, right? Or fortunately, or whatever.
	It's just a reality. Yeah.
	So, you're going to think of it like a man who's very, very wealthy and he knows for sure he's going to lose his money in his 30s.
	Now, he can sit there and he can buy all of his friends lots of fun trips and buy them and they're going to hang around.
	But then when he loses his money, they're going to not be his friends anymore.
	What value is he bringing?
	He's got to put the money aside and say, okay, well, I'm wealthy.
	I can't really hide that. I guess I could hide it a little bit, but I'm going to lose this money.
	I'm not going to have this money in 10 years.
	So I've got to start building my life like I'm broke, or at least I've got to be conscious of that.
	It's the same thing with women. You are going to be broke in 10 years.
	Yeah. Yeah. And if you can't find a way to bring your life into a soft landing, it's going to be a Thelma and Louise Hard crash, right?
	And the soft landing is, use your attractiveness to get the best man you can, commit to him, and then put the public beauty aside.
	And again, I'm not saying go out looking, I'm not saying anything like that, but you put the public beauty aside.
	Okay. And you put...
	Because the reason why...
	I'm not trying to blame the victim, right?
	I mean, the wolf whistles and the comments and all of that.
	I'm not trying to blame the victim here.
	But you will be quite surprised once you fully commit to a man how that stuff will diminish.
	Yeah. And it will diminish why?
	Just because you'll present yourself differently?
	It's magic. I don't know.
	It's like Don McLean and his dad died two days after he thought his dad was going to die.
	Well, maybe he noticed his dad's coloring had changed.
	Maybe his dad had different breath, which indicated some sort of viral infection.
	Maybe he was sagging a little more.
	Maybe he was leaning a bit to the left.
	Maybe he was slurring his words in a microscopic way or something like that, right?
	Maybe, maybe, right?
	So maybe he had some premonition that wasn't based upon psychic phenomena.
	You know, 80% of communication is nonverbal and...
	If you are fully committed to a man, you will walk differently.
	You will hold yourself differently.
	I don't mean sort of beaten down, but you will just communicate out there in the world.
	Yeah. In a different way.
	And I say this from experience.
	Like, I went from women being...
	Not throwing themselves at me.
	Nothing like that. But it was like... You know, women being receptive or open to this kind of stuff.
	Man, the moment I got involved with the woman who's now my wife, that's done.
	Right? I don't know if you're just not putting off signals.
	Again, I'm not trying to blame you for any of this, but you'd be amazed at, you know, if you want to deal with that kind of stuff, just commit to a man and that, right?
	So let's get back to the question.
	What do you have to offer without sexuality, without attractiveness, without that stuff?
	And this is not rhetorical, right?
	No, no, it's a real...
	I'm not saying you can come up with a list of 10 things off the top of your head, but that's the question.
	If you want to have certainty...
	Then you gotta answer that question.
	I feel like I have nothing to offer.
	And I suppose that is...
	No, not that I suppose. We have discovered that, like, that is what this sense of just uncertainty and then this sense of doom emerges because I realize that within all of the power I have at the moment, I know that I'm powerless because once that is gone, then I have nothing.
	Right. Well, and you actually have worse than nothing because you have regret.
	Yeah, yeah, actually.
	Like, why didn't I use this to settle down?
	Now it's gone and I can't, right?
	Like the guy who, why didn't I invest the money that I knew I was going to lose?
	Exactly. And I remember, and I keep saying, I remember, I remember.
	I've listened to, like, a lot of your shows.
	Like, I really like you.
	There's this woman who you had done a call-in show with, and I think she was, like, 47 or something and, like, living with her mom.
	And she was essentially just allowing her life to serve as a warning to others, like, don't do this.
	And she did the thing, you know, she was the hot young thing and she flirted with the 40-year-old and she was, you know, their girlfriend.
	And then she broke up with them because she wanted to date another, more richer guy when she was 25.
	And then before you know it, you know, she's 35 and it's like, oh, well, this is harder.
	And then before you know it, she's 40 and there's literally just nothing.
	And now she's just living with her mom.
	Or like the woman, um...
	Estrogen-based parasites, the woman who was in her 50s and was dating a guy in his 70s and just waiting for him to die so she could get the house.
	I think I may have used the phrase straddling in Nazgul for cash or something like that.
	But yeah, it's grim.
	It's grim. And that flip where you go, I can't get a 30-year-old, but I can get a 65-year-old, that happens like overnight.
	It does, which is so strange.
	It's like, okay, so you're 37, you know, and then it's like, you can't get a 30-year-old for many reasons.
	A 40-year-old, well, probably married.
	Or if he's successful, he wants the 30-year-old.
	Yeah, he would always say that as well.
	Yeah, it's like, well, why would he want to go with you?
	He would either go with someone who's 30, who maybe is just normal and have like one kid, or if he wants a heap of kids, just go with a 22-year-old, like the hot girl down there.
	Or the 27-year-old, or whatever the case may be.
	Right. Yeah, so that is what it comes from.
	Wow. Just this sense of, this is all I have to offer.
	And that means that the man who's interested in, and I don't want to read your mind here, so I'm just telling you what I think, and you correct me, of course, if I go astray, Sarah, but I've always thought that there's a kind of contempt for men In women who are working their looks.
	Because the man has to pretend that the woman possesses all these other kinds of virtues when basically it's just lust.
	And the fact that the man is looking at her and saying, oh, you're wonderful, you're the best, I love you and this and that.
	She knows deep down it's just the pants.
	She wants to get into her pants.
	I think there's almost like a level of contempt around this.
	Like a drug dealer who, you know, the drug addict with no money is just hanging around and laughing at all his jokes.
	It's like, you're only here for the drugs, man.
	You don't care about me. I agree with that.
	And I'll share, you know, from experience.
	Before James and I got like, you know, began speaking again and whatnot, there was a gentleman at the gym who was 40 and just older and very much, you know, my type or was my type, obviously.
	It's not my type anymore because I like functional, stable people.
	But just expressing, oh, you know, I don't, like, have a lot of time, but, you know, I was hurt in the past, and I'm not, like, really looking for a relationship, but, you know, if you're, like, available.
	And just kind of very...
	Like, you clearly don't care about me.
	You clearly just want to fuck me.
	You know, you...
	Literally, you've only seen me in the gym.
	You know I work out.
	This is all you know about me.
	You just want to fuck me.
	Lord, you know that I'm a virgin.
	I felt just like, no, go away.
	It has not been until recently that I felt that way when I've received attention strictly because it was squat day or whatever the case may be.
	I think that That fact that someone who is very much my type, or was my type as I said before, was giving me the attention that I liked, you know, complimenting my physique.
	And just briefly, the reason why I enjoy compliments on my muscularity, not necessarily like my body, but like my muscularity, if that makes sense, is because like that's something that I earned.
	You know, you don't I'm quite muscular for a woman, and it's quite difficult to put on muscle as a woman.
	And I'm quite strong, and I'm proud of that.
	Oh no, I have you down on the list of people I'm going to call if I have to move.
	But anyway, that's a different...
	Oh yeah, no, my dad's like that too.
	It was his birthday recently.
	I'm like, what do you want? He's like, can you help me move some shit to the dump?
	Are you serious? When I used to work out more, and a friend of mine was moving, and he's like, you've got to come help me move.
	I'm like, dude, this is just for show.
	This is a show boat.
	This is not a boat for cruising.
	You don't go fishing on this boat.
	This is just for show. This is not for work.
	Yeah, I understand that.
	I definitely like both. I very much enjoy being very strong.
	And I enjoy, you know, looking lean and whatnot.
	So sometimes I get frustrated with myself because I can't lift as heavy as I would like to.
	But that's besides the point. But I do enjoy, you know, compliments of that nature because I earned that, if that makes sense.
	But it was just so, like, so gross and so shallow.
	And the script that he used was, like, so predictable.
	Just the vague, oh, yeah, you know...
	I've been hurt in the past, so I'm really guarded.
	It's like, no, you just want to fuck somebody. Well, and this is the thing, right?
	So fundamentally, a hole is a hollow.
	A hole is an absence.
	Yeah. It's where your body is not.
	Your vagina parts, it's where your body is not, so to speak, right?
	Because baby's got to come through it, right?
	Yeah. So it's a hole.
	It's like if a man wants a woman for her hole, he wants her where she's not.
	He wants a hollow. He wants an absence.
	He wants something that isn't there.
	Yeah. That's interesting.
	I never thought of it in quite those...
	Yeah. So that's why when...
	That occurred and I immediately thought, you don't care about me.
	You just care about, you just want to fuck me.
	Right. And that's why every time you get a man through that kind of appeal, you are uncertain because he's not there for you.
	He's there for something that isn't you, which is your whole.
	I understand!
	That's the price you pay.
	Everything comes with a cost.
	You get all this attention and the price you pay is uncertainty.
	Yes! Wow!
	that's all like literally that's always been the way that you know I found boyfriends you know and significant others and and whatever you know just flings and that's always wow and it's interesting as well because now that I'm taking um steps to really see this type of shallow behavior for what it is
	I think back to the moments like with men who obviously only wanted where I am not and as you put it, and I used to kind of smirk and be like...
	You know? And now I'm just like, ugh.
	And I, like, wish I could have told my younger self, like, this is stupid.
	Well, the whole point of culture is to keep this knowledge from you, which is really, really sad.
	Like, a culture and art has become so corrupt that it's all just about female empowerment and you're a superhero and this is going to go on forever.
	It's just a way of luring you into infertility.
	No, it truly is.
	And my longer email that I had originally sent to James, and he was like, okay, you know.
	And I said, I'll abridge this because it's quite long.
	But I had mentioned at the very end, you know, I know that this is what, like, the leftist feminists want from, like, a young pretty girl who is successful, you know, who is really trying to behave virtuously insofar as sexuality goes and And this is what they want.
	They want you to experiment with this female empowerment, which is not empowerment at all, because they are emphasizing where the woman is not as a way to gain this empowerment.
	This is what they want.
	They want you to fuck around, and they want you to be used, and they want you to have that thousand-eyed penis stare.
	And then when you're 35, you can get a pixie cut and walk around in comfy shoes and join their women's march and And talk about whatever Republican is most popular in office and how he's Hitler.
	And that's what they want. Right.
	And it's also different for women, too, because when men are successful, they provoke envy.
	But a lot of times when women are successful, they provoke a kind of hatred that men don't really quite fathom.
	Yeah, I agree with that.
	And that's why women generally tend to be a bit more egalitarian than men, because men are out there competing.
	And we just, you know, win-lose, and you've got to shake hands afterwards and all that, and you've got to stay friends when you lose.
	Otherwise, you're a sore loser, and that's kind of sad, right?
	But women, I don't know, if you veer too much, the men are always drawn to these extremes, right?
	But for women, you've got to kind of sit around the middle.
	And, you know, this used to be called like a stitch and bitch, right?
	You just get together and complain about your husbands, right?
	Yeah. And I remember talking to a woman who's like, oh yeah, I'm hanging out with these women and there's a book club and they're all complaining about their husbands.
	And she's like, man, I love my husband.
	He's like a great guy. And I'm like, I can't say that.
	I can't say that because if I do, I'm going to get daggers.
	Yeah. Like, they're going to hate me.
	Because I'm like, I don't know.
	I'm sorry that you have these sad husbands.
	I'm sorry that you have these mean, workaholic, weirdo husbands.
	But, like, I'm totally happy.
	I can't wait to get back to my husband.
	And, like, what are the women going to say?
	Oh, that's great. How did you do it?
	And they're going to be like, oh, you're just too good for us, I suppose.
	And roll their eyes. Yeah, that's true.
	That would be the response. I do wonder if...
	If, knowing that, knowing that most women just kind of feel, at minimum, just unpleasant feelings towards their husband for whatever reason, kind of provokes women who would otherwise have happy marriages to be very nitpicky and very naggy and essentially make problems where there aren't any problems for the purpose of doing the stitch and bitch.
	Yeah, so women who feel that they did not get the quality of man that they somehow deserve will spend the rest of their lives clawing that man down to nothing.
	Oh, that's dreadful.
	It really is. Like, don't marry the guy.
	You get what you settle for.
	That's what you get in life.
	If you think you're worth $50 an hour, but you're willing to work for $20 an hour, you get paid $20 an hour.
	You can't say, I'm being ripped off for $30 an hour.
	You get what you negotiate.
	You get what you settle for.
	That's life. So if you think you could have gotten some amazing guy and you ended up with some guy who's not amazing, that's sad.
	It's tragic, I guess.
	But that's what you're worth.
	You're worth what people will pay you and not a penny more.
	You know, there's no magical universe where you're worth more that somehow you're being ripped off and not getting it.
	If you think you could date some genius supermodel and you end up with some fat cashier from Walmart, it's like there is no fantasy platonic genius supermodel there that someone stole from you.
	It's like that's what you settled for.
	That's... There's no other standard.
	That's what you settle for, if that makes sense, right?
	And this idea that there's just this perfection out there, like, oh, my life would be better if I didn't have these kids or if I had a different husband.
	It's like, but you chose to have the husband.
	You chose to have kids. This is your life.
	And chasing this ghost of higher standard perfection that you never achieved is so destructive.
	And it makes everyone around you so miserable.
	And you could be happy. Your mom could be happier.
	She could? Oh my goodness, she could.
	I've had this for literally years.
	Again, I'm 27 now.
	I remember having this conversation with her at like 13, you know, just trying to explain to her ways that she could very easily just alleviate the situation, whatever the doom is, like whatever the chaos is.
	And I would say, just going back to thinking, you know, you end up marrying like What you think you're worth.
	You end up being with who you think you're worth.
	And I suppose, until very recently, I've often just viewed myself with somebody who possesses, like, my father's very brutish qualities and just, yet again, just managing his anger and managing his temper, but still someone very industrious and very capable and just sighing and wishing that I was with, like, a nice...
	A nice man who can have endless thoughtful conversations with me and just thinking, well, you know, it wasn't meant to be.
	And again, again, thinking like my mom, when I get to heaven and I'll ask God, why didn't I end up with, you know, this man?
	And why? And God, you know, would look at me and just say, well, because you chose this person.
	Right? I gave you free will, honey.
	And this is what you did with it.
	Don't blame me. Exactly!
	And I remember, it's so simple, but just hearing a therapist say it was very powerful.
	And I go back to this moment often where things started kind of clicking.
	And she looked at me after some crazy monologue of gobbledygook, emotional, feely nonsense.
	She's like, listen, everything in life is a choice.
	And she, you know, you can choose this.
	You can choose this. You can choose this.
	This is what you know you've now chosen.
	And it was just such a simple sentiment, but very powerful.
	And I've said that, you know, to my mother, I've said that to my brother, and I've tried to just explain very nicely, you know, and gently, but straightforwardly, you know, everything in life is a choice.
	He chose my half-brother not to get married.
	And because the person he chose to date on and off for five years was this, you know, unstable woman with this spawn of Satan of a child who he really did not want to be involved with.
	But now that he has all these health issues, he wishes that he had just married her because then at least he wouldn't be alone in this way, you know?
	So everything goes back to a choice.
	Right. I mean, I found Sandra Bullock attractive and then she married some lunatic tatted up The trailer park guy who had a car show who ended up, I think, cheating on her and they got divorced.
	And it's like, okay, so it's a good thing that I didn't let my...
	No, it wasn't just hormones because she's also very charismatic and funny.
	At least she was when she was younger.
	And Jesse James, right?
	That's her. Jesse James is his name.
	And it's like, oh, that's really, really, really sad, right?
	It's like, okay, so that's who she is, right?
	So it's all show and there's no soul.
	There's no person there.
	Yeah, and how sad is that for really anybody, but especially for just the quote, you know, normal person, for there to just be nothing there.
	You know, the thing that you identified yourself with was something that Was not eternal, so to speak.
	And then it's gone and you're just this emptiness.
	And in the case of women, I'm sure the cougar movement or the cougar trope is like a real thing for a reason.
	Because, you know, women are horny and they don't have a husband.
	So they're like, well, you know, whatever.
	Take me where I'm not.
	Yeah. Well, no, the whole cougar thing is just kind of a myth, too.
	It's just a way of trying to prop up the sexual market value of women in their 40s.
	It's like, no, they're often hitting menopause, they're perimenopausal, and they're depressed, and they're just trying to grab that last thing before they go under, last bit of young flesh before they go under, and it's really, really tragic.
	Now, James seems to know quite a bit about Jesse James' penis size, and apparently that's what he had to offer.
	Was he like Mr. Beer Can?
	Mr. Tripod? All right.
	Okay, I don't know, obviously.
	But James does, and I just want to share that with the world.
	Is that what he just said?
	That's some pretty specific trivia there.
	I just wanted to mention that.
	This is why it's good that James doesn't edit these shows.
	That's awesome. Let me take the credit.
	Okay, yeah. Now we have a good name for the show.
	What is this?
	I don't know, but it's going to be something to do with Jesse James' penis size, apparently.
	See, it's where you aren't, but apparently it's where quite a lot of him is.
	Like, how did this conversation go from, I don't know, I can't connect sexually to Jesse James' penis?
	It's a journey. It's a journey.
	All I can say is that. So you've probably heard this allegory.
	There's a man on a roof in a flood.
	A man on a raft comes by and he says, come with me.
	I will rescue you. No, I'm waiting for God to save me.
	A man on a motorboat comes by.
	No, I'm waiting for God to save me.
	A helicopter, blah, blah, blah. The man dies and says, Lord, Lord, why did you not save me?
	God replies, come on, I sent you a raft, a motorboat, and a helicopter.
	Yeah. And that's very much how I feel about James.
	And I said, and I truly mean this, that he was just so memorable.
	And the way that we engaged with each other was just something I kept trying to find.
	And I would find someone who's lovely, who's fine, but we were just missing those nuances that you experience with somebody that make I remember I was just kind of pseudo-philosophically asking my PhD-holding big brother and his wife, like, is it possible to, like, transfer the affection that you have towards someone to someone similar?
	And it was kind of like a fake question.
	But they laughed at me, and my brother was like, no, because you're not a robot, you know?
	There are reasons.
	And he doesn't often comment on these kind of feely questions that I have.
	Usually his wife does all of that.
	So when he does, it's usually a great one-liner.
	But my sister-in-law had said, just as if I brought someone who's 30, who's a nice, mild-mannered...
	Man who wears glasses, who teaches philosophy, who, you know, has hair like Ringo Starr.
	And I said, here, you know, love him the way that you love my husband.
	You would look at me like I'm insane.
	It's like that's what you're trying to do.
	You're trying to take these very genuine feelings that you have towards somebody for nuanced reasons that some are, you know, mystical, whatever.
	Or you've always said that love is our response to virtue, like our involuntary response to virtue.
	So the virtue that I see in him that I'm obviously involuntarily responding to, you're trying to take that and just put it somewhere else.
	And that's not, you know, how love works.
	And that's not how attraction and relationships work.
	I get kind of Old Testament when it comes to the punishment that people should receive for leading people down the wrong path of love.
	I'll go out on a limb here and I'm going to say that Megan Fox and Machine Gun Kelly, probably not going to work out.
	Why? Because he's Machine Gun Kelly.
	And he's basically like the cover of Ray Bradbury's The Illustrated Man.
	I mean, he's got more ink than the first folio of Shakespeare.
	So, but the problem is that she's like, oh, he's the coolest.
	Oh, he's the best. So she's programming women to go after these shark hair and body paint lunatics.
	Yeah. And then they're like, oh, it didn't work out.
	It's good. I hope it hurts.
	I hope it hurts so much. And I hope you cry.
	And I hope that you say to people, don't go after people named Machine Gun Kelly.
	I don't even know who the hell he is.
	There's so many people now. Armie Hammer, what does he do?
	I have no idea. I have no idea who half these people are, celebrities, because they don't really care to track this stuff anymore.
	But I'm pretty sure that Megan Fox and Machine Gun Kelly is not going to work out, but it's probably going to do a lot of damage.
	Before it doesn't work out because she's probably going after some unfortunate victim of, I assume, child abuse like this young man.
	Or Charlize Theron, right?
	She's considered to be one of the most beautiful women around.
	Do you know how long it's been since she's been on a date?
	Oh, golly. I would imagine a while because she's old.
	Ten years. Really?
	That long? Well, I think the price she had to pay as being a South African star was to adopt these kids.
	And, you know, maybe guys don't want to raise some other guys' kids.
	You know, I've heard that's sort of a thing.
	And, yeah, 10 years.
	10 years she's not even been on a date, as far as I know.
	And that's like, yeah, it's a good thing you worked out.
	Good thing you're real pretty. Yeah.
	No, and that is, you know, I guess something that I've realized.
	I've realized many things through this conversation, but one of the things is that if people who have a great deal of power are still subject to, you know, the inevitable decline of sexual market value, then certainly like us normies are very much subject to it.
	Yeah, yeah, for sure, because you don't have a whole industry propping you up that way.
	Okay, so let's end up with this, and I don't think I didn't notice that after our three-plus-hour conversation, you praised your brother for being succinct!
	Anyway, but what I would say is that, you know, what do you have to bring to the table outside of physical attraction?
	Yeah. And the reason you've got to ask that of yourself is the purpose of your physical attraction is Is twofold.
	To get and keep a man and to have and raise children.
	Now, do your children care How muscular you are?
	Do your children care how hot you are?
	Do your children care about your hair?
	Do your children care about the size of your butt?
	Or, you know, they don't care.
	They simply don't care, particularly when they're babies.
	They have no... They care if you love them, if you're emotionally present, if you're eye contact, if you take pleasure in their company, if you're not suffering from postpartum, all this kind of stuff, right?
	If you're available, if you're there, if you're taking pleasure in their existence so that they can learn to love themselves that way.
	I mean, that's what they care.
	They don't care about how nice your calves look in high heels when you're reaching on the top shelf or something, right?
	They don't care. - Yeah. - They don't care at all.
	And so the whole purpose of sexuality is for children, and babies don't care how sexy you are.
	I mean, they care that they exist, which means you had to be attractive to someone, right?
	But that fundamental question is, what do I have to bring to the table?
	You don't have to wait until you're 60 to answer that question.
	You could answer it next year if you're holding a baby in your arms.
	You've got to be able to answer that.
	And I think a lot of women who go through postpartum, my obviously amateur nonsense opinion, but I believe the women who haven't answered that question, like Brooke Shields, she wrote a whole book I think called And the Rain Came Down about postpartum.
	And I don't know Brooke Shields from a hole in the ground, so to speak.
	But if I had to guess, I would say that a lot of women who go through postpartum have not answered their question.
	Who am I if I'm not attracted to someone romantically or sexually?
	Who am I? And then someone comes into the life, a baby comes into the life who does not care about that at all, and they don't have an answer to that question, and the hole falls out of the bottom of their personality.
	Mm-hmm. Yeah.
	And that, I mean, I suppose that is something that I don't have a clear answer to.
	Like, who am I? You know, I guess that's why I ask myself that at 3am when I wake up.
	Right. And I feel like a sense of doom.
	Like, I don't... And the babies will ask that, and they will insist upon that.
	Yeah. And you can't manipulate babies, and you can't get babies to, you know...
	You can't get them to love you by...
	Being pretty. They don't care.
	They don't notice. It doesn't matter to them at all.
	Yeah, it's like, okay, are you going to feed me?
	Are you going to love me? Are you going to feed me?
	Are you there for eye contact?
	Are you distracted? Are you unable to find...
	Do you not take pleasure in me because I can't give you the dopamine of wanting you, so to speak, right?
	Needing you is different, right?
	So the answer as to what you have to bring to the table outside of being physically attractive...
	Is, of course, virtue.
	Moral excellence. Moral courage.
	And I want that so much.
	I desire that tremendously.
	And as I told you, I recognize that I have a lot to, and I recognize this before we've discussed it, that I have a lot to make up for because of just my flakiness and just my inability to commit for longer than two weeks and And yes and no and yes and no every other six seconds.
	So I deeply desire to be virtuous.
	But your family of origin does not want that for you, I believe.
	I could be wrong, but from what you've told me in our last conversation, we've had a lot of chats now, right?
	I believe that they do not want you to enact.
	They don't mind you thinking about moral excellence.
	Yeah. But they don't want...
	They're like the fat family that doesn't want you to lose weight because if you lose weight, it means they can't.
	Yep. So, if I have a virtuous, moral, happy marriage, or when I have a virtuous, moral, happy marriage, they will, you know, be forced to see that it is possible and they'll have to think about, well, what did we do?
	Why did we go wrong? Why has this person who we raised been able to kind of avoid this trap that we have not been able to avoid?
	No, but they will never be able to avoid it because they're past that time of attracting people based upon that, right?
	Yeah, absolutely. Very, very few people are going to find true love in their 60s or 70s or 80s.
	Oh, golly, yeah. So when you're around people whose damage is irreparable, they are 150% committed to your failure.
	Yeah, on average, in general, right?
	It can be some iron rule like physics because, you know, there's still free will.
	But certainly, if they don't acknowledge that they made mistakes and you should do better.
	Yeah, they haven't acknowledged that.
	And they never will because their problems are irreparable.
	Yeah. They can't go back.
	There's no time machine. They can't fix things.
	That's why there's just this grim march to a probably welcome grave, right?
	Right. Sadly, yeah, I know at least for my mom, like I straight up said to her, you know, not that you want, you know, my father to die, because I don't think that, but I'm sure when he does, that you will feel, you know, an appropriate sense of sadness, but I suspect you'll feel relief.
	And not for nothing, but if I was married and my child had the audacity to say that to me, and it was false, I would go insane.
	But she didn't say anything.
	She didn't yell at me.
	She didn't, you know, say you're wrong.
	She just looked at me. But here's the truth, though, Sarah.
	She won't be one tiny bit happier if and when she dies.
	Oh, that's terrible.
	It won't change. It won't change.
	Oh my god, that's terrible. He is a reflection of her unhappiness.
	In fact, she'll probably be even more miserable because she's been living on the hope that she'll be happier when such and such happens.
	And then when such and such, like, this is another reason why people get depressed.
	They say, oh, I mean, I'm unhappy now, but boy, when I have kids, I'm sure I have a baby, I hold that baby, I'll be happier.
	And it's like, nope, baby is not a magic happy pill that's delivered to you by the gods so that you don't have to deal with your shit.
	It's true. And just like, you know, a marriage isn't, you know, a magic happy pill delivered to you by the God so you don't have to deal with your shit.
	Right. Right. Which is what it's always been presented to me as, you know, which is why it's, oh, you just have to wait for it to be magically presented and dropped and then all your problems are gone.
	But... And it's what makes people, because they believe there's a magic pill.
	They don't do the hard work. They believe there's some circumstances that are going to jolt them out of our unhappiness and they're going to send them.
	And we see this shit all the time.
	Oh my gosh, I got X, Y, and Z product.
	Oh look, I lost a little bit of weight.
	Oh, I got these stockings.
	Oh look, I have new eye shadow.
	I have smoky eye of the gods.
	And my mom had this, oh, I'm going to get a nose job and my nose is going to be smaller and everything's going to be fixed.
	It's like, nope. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
	There is no external solution to the problem of insecurity.
	So, moral excellence.
	But moral excellence is, I think, going to put you in conflict with your family.
	And I wish it wasn't the case. I wish it wasn't the case.
	But I think it is.
	And that's probably why it's such a challenge.
	Probably, because I feel responsible for these people.
	I feel, as we talked about, I'm just the one who was selected to manage these people.
	I've even had my older sister say, I'm really happy that you're there because they just need to be watched.
	I'm like, oh yeah, okay, thanks.
	Just feeling like you don't want to leave people in their own self-destruction.
	Right. Oh, but, you know, thank you.
	Like, there are so many just aha moments, as Oprah said.
	I hate to use you and Oprah in the same sentence.
	No, I think that's totally fine.
	That's totally fine. Listen, first of all, you have a huge amount to offer.
	Obviously, you're very strong-willed, you're very intelligent, and you are a great conversationalist.
	Thank you. And, you know, very thoughtful.
	You've taught me stuff.
	You've learned some stuff. It's been a really, really great back and forth and I really, really appreciate that.
	So, yeah, I think you have a lot of curiosity, a lot of, I mean, you're interested in philosophy and all of that.
	And, you know, you want to be a mom and there's lots of wonderful things about you.
	Yeah. I think that you should begin to recognize and not blame yourself.
	You know, women are sold this bill of goods like, oh, just be hot and everything's going to be great.
	And nobody's happy with their body, right?
	Because the more attractive your body is, the more you're like, oh my God, this tiny little bit is sticking out and I'm a bikini model.
	So you never end up happy with it.
	So the women looking at the bikini model is looking, oh my gosh, I wish I had that body.
	And the bikini model is looking at a bikini model six months younger saying, oh my God, I wish I had that body.
	Mm-hmm. Anyway, so I think that you do have an enormous amount to offer, and your curiosity and your intelligence and your verbosity and so on is really delightful, and I think that if you can just...
	Pry yourself loose of some of this unfortunate propaganda that's inflicted on all of us.
	And listen, when I was your age, I was not nearly as far along the road as you are.
	So you should be enormously pleased and proud about that, I think.
	And I would certainly, at your age, I would have looked up to you as much wiser than you would be.
	So I hope that gives you some encouragement about all of this stuff.
	And, you know, as James pointed out, you were talking about your mom.
	You were trying to talk wisdom into your mom.
	less than half your current age right so you were 13 and you're 20 you're older than 26 so less than half your current age in other words your 13 year old self was closer to being born than to your current age and you still haven't been able to fix anything yeah and that's not your fault Thank you. Honestly, obviously, I have, you know, a lot of respect for you.
	James and I, we often joke and we say, okay, at the very least, you know, Stefan will get a Christmas card every year and we might name one of our kids after him.
	I appreciate that. Who's getting the Christmas card?
	Oh, this person, this person, Stefan Molyneux, this person, this person.
	Yeah, it's funny. Out there are a number of just little things that I've done.
	Like people are like, oh, could you give so-and-so a birthday greeting or whatever it is?
	I'm happy to do that stuff.
	So just shoot me a message operation at freedomain.com if you would like that because I live for you guys, at least in this realm.
	All right. Please keep me posted.
	Do give my very best to James.
	Thank you so much for the conversation.
	Thank you, everyone, so much for listening in on these, I think, amazing chats that we have.
	You are the greatest listeners in the known universe for all time, too, because there will never be another show like this because this show has already been here.
	So thanks, everyone, so much.
	Thanks for James for getting all of this stuff running.
	Please don't forget to support the show.
	I hate to say it's more important now than ever, but it is kind of a little bit that way.
	Freedomain.com forward slash donate.
	Don't forget to check me out.
	Freedomain.com forward slash connect for all the various places you can keep track of what it is that I'm still doing.
	Love you guys so much.
	Have yourself a great, great evening.
	I guess I'll talk to you all on Sunday, 11 a.m.
	Eastern Standard Time. And I haven't forgotten that we did some trivia games recently.
	And I don't know if you guys like to play cards.
	I kind of do. And I've got a pretty good setup for playing cards remotely.
	So let's set that up through the board.
	And I will look forward to that as well.
	Take care, everyone. Bye. Well, thank you so much for enjoying this latest Free Domain Show on Philosophy.
	And I'm going to be frank and ask you for your help, your support, your encouragement, and your resources.
	Please like, subscribe, and share, and all of that good stuff to get philosophy out into the world.
	And also, equally importantly, go to freedomain.com forward slash donate To help out the show, to give me the resources that I need to bring more and better philosophy to an increasingly desperate world.
	So thank you so much for your support, my friends.

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