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Oct. 3, 2020 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:42:21
"I HAVE TO CHANGE MY BOYFRIEND!" Freedomain Call In
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Good evening, everyone. We have two people on the line, and James has said it would be nice if we got to both of them, but that depends, and it depends entirely upon the listeners, whether they drag me off into tangents or not.
That's really what it comes down to.
If, through no fault of my own, they drag me Like a hobo behind the truck of some good old Southern boys down the dirt road of tangents.
Well, there's nothing I can do other than hang on.
But, on the other hand, if they resist that impulse, we'll be fine.
Because I really like to model this kind of responsibility and self-ownership in the show.
So, James, do you think we should get started?
Or have I already blown my tangent thing already?
No, I think you should save it for later.
Let's get started. Let's get started.
First caller has a parenting question.
He writes... My wife and I have two children under three years old.
I was raised in a Christian family, but over the past decade or so, I have moved away from those beliefs.
I now consider myself agnostic or atheist.
My wife, on the other hand, is a Christian, though she isn't dogmatic about it.
She just prefers to believe in God, and she admits as much.
Neither of us attend a church, and the topic doesn't really come up very often.
Otherwise, I would say our worldviews and values are highly compatible.
The obvious question is how to present these ideas to our kids.
I certainly wouldn't want to feel like I was lying to them just to avoid conflict, and I likewise wouldn't want her to feel pressured into keeping her beliefs to herself because she doesn't feel prepared to argue about it.
And it isn't just my wife and me.
It's also our extended families and the broader culture that are highly theist.
No matter what I do, I can't just shield my kids from Bible stories and Bible themes, so it will need to be addressed.
And frankly, I wouldn't want to keep these ideas from them even if I could.
They need to be exposed to a range of ideas, if for no other reason than to be well-rounded and educated people.
Also, I think Christians have some good things to say, even if not only metaphorically.
Too many people, though certainly not all, knee-jerk their way into nihilism via atheism, and I certainly don't want that for my kids.
Yet I don't want to just allow them to adopt cultural values wholesale.
At the same time, I would hate for them to feel pressured into believing what either of their parents believe.
I think they're on their own spiritual journey.
And honestly, I believe that if I do a good job, they'll end up seeing things like I do anyway, at the risk of sounding conceited.
But at least it will be their own choice.
Plus, having read people like Joseph Campbell and Jordan Peterson, I think the Bible is rich in imagery, and like many other myths, actually should be read, once you're mature enough to take it for what it is.
Wow, this would have been a whole lot easier question for me to answer before I found my newfound respect for Christianity.
Let me introduce you to 2010 Steph.
He will answer this question.
No, I'm just kidding. Well, welcome.
Thanks a lot for taking the time tonight.
Is there anything you wanted to add or clarify?
No, I'm happy to talk to you.
I've been a big fan for a long time.
This isn't like a crisis or anything.
My kids are still young.
Like I said, they're under three, but it's just something I've been thinking about because actually what sparked it is I received a bunch of used books from a friend who their kids have gotten older.
So there's some good stuff in there, but one of them was just like a, you know, Bible stories for kids kind of thing.
And I looked at it and, you know, it kind of just sparked Sparked these thoughts.
And I'm like, you know, I should really kind of think about how I'm going to approach this.
Yeah, I know. That's fine.
Can you tell me a little bit about your history with religion?
Sure, yeah. So I was raised, like I said, Christian, kind of funny, you know, Christian.
Just Protestant, but kind of an intense...
Wait, wait, sorry. Fundy or Protestant?
Usually, from my experience, it's one or the other, but was it more Fundy-Protestant?
Well, no, I mean, I'm not a theologian, but in my mind, Protestant is like the umbrella and then, you know, fundamentalist within the Protestant kind of world.
So kind of a more extreme version.
That's kind of what I was getting at, but...
And, yeah, so...
But kind of, I would say, an intense...
Anyway, good people, but they take it really seriously in the world that I grew up in.
I was definitely devout until I got to my early to mid-twenties, and then I started having some real doubts about it.
Here I am later, and I've moved fully away from it.
I don't know if that answers your question.
I'm happy to go on, but I don't want to ramble either.
No, no, we shouldn't both be doing that.
And where were you in your faith journey when you met the woman who's now your wife?
I was 90% away from it.
And my wife and I both were from the same kind of church group.
And we had met, but we didn't really know each other that well.
And then, you know...
We kind of reconnected after I had moved away.
So I moved away from those ideas.
And I was very upfront with her about it.
And as I mentioned in the opening thing, it's really not an issue.
It doesn't come up.
We don't argue about it. She knows kind of where I stand.
So, yeah.
Does that answer your question?
Yeah, yeah, somewhat. Well, you don't have to do a whole roleplay, but just in general.
When your kids get older, they're going to hear about God.
And they're going to hear about God from your wife and friends and family and, you know, whatever, right?
And maybe from the books that they're reading and all of that.
So then they're going to come to you and they're going to say, Daddy, what do you think?
Well, yeah, what I would say, I would think, is something like...
Some people...
I'll give you an example, I guess, around New Year's of 2020.
Several months ago now, we were having a thing with my extended family, and so we were sitting down to dinner, and...
People started praying. And my daughter, who was just under two at the time, she was completely baffled by what was happening.
All these people are, like, talking, praying.
But she didn't know what praying is, so she asked me pretty much.
She's like, Daddy, what are my cousins doing?
And I laughed, you know, because everyone could hear her.
And I was like, oh, they're praying. She said, what's that?
Oh, they're kind of just, they're talking, they're thinking good thoughts.
A dream is a wish your heart makes...
Sorry, go on. Yeah, just, just, Daddy, Daddy, what do you think?
If you could just take that speech forward.
Sure, sure.
Well, yeah, some people think that there is...
You know, the truth is we don't really know a lot about certain parts of where we come from, so some people have different stories that they tell one another, and the truth is we don't really know.
And depending on how old she is, like right now that would probably be good enough, but in a year it'll have to be more involved.
Well, let's do it at the part where it becomes more involved.
Oh, okay. Well...
And also, don't think you can get away...
Sorry, don't think you can get away with Daddy, what do you think?
Some people think...
No, no, no. No, no, no, no, no.
That's not going to work. Yeah.
Because then you're teaching her that what's important is not what she thinks, but what other people think, and to focus on other people's ideas rather than her own, which you probably don't want to be doing, right?
Sure, sure. Well...
As with many parenting things, I do feel like I'm learning as I'm going.
So as she develops, I'm also kind of, you know, so my point is it's a guess.
I don't know how, you know, depending on how sophisticated she gets, I'm going to have to I think it's good to have some kind of answers, at least in your head. It doesn't mean that they're carved in stone, but you've got to have a starting place, right?
Sure. Well, and that, you know, yeah, that's actually why I'm calling, right?
Yeah, yeah, no, I get it. Yeah.
Yeah. So I would, I mean, of course, I have no problem telling her what I think, which is I think that people are, that human beings are really good at coming up with stories for things they don't understand.
And so why do a lot of people believe in God?
Well, I think it kind of ties back into that.
And people used to think volcanoes meant one thing, and now they don't have those same beliefs.
And it kind of just goes from there with all these things that people still don't understand.
And then in the meantime, institutions are built up, and then social structures and all that stuff.
But again, like for a four-year-old, I'm probably not going to go that in-depth in there, but that would be the direction that I would take.
And I'm happy to do that.
So it's more the nature of anthropology than dad.
Yeah, well, I mean, but I don't know if that would be a good answer for her.
No, I don't think that's the way you want to go.
I mean, you can go anywhere you want.
That would not be...
She's asking you what you think, and you're not telling her.
So here's the thing with kids.
You can say, I don't want to answer that.
You can say, I'm not comfortable talking about that right now.
Or you can say, wait until you're older.
But don't Joe Biden her.
That's all I'm... Don't give her a politician's non-answer.
Well, that's a complex topic and many people have the...
Because then she's just going to be like, it's like he's miming an answer, but I'm not getting an answer.
Yeah. Got to be direct.
Okay, well, sure.
So, I mean, I would tell her that I don't believe it, you know, that it's just some stories that, yeah, they're just stories.
But they're not.
Okay. No, they're not, because people don't think Lord of the Rings is real, right?
And people don't base their ethics on Star Trek.
So while it's true that they're stories in a kind of sense, they're not perceived or acted upon as stories.
They're perceived and acted upon as metaphysical and moral absolutes and realities.
And so if you use the same word for two different things, it really confuses kids.
So if you put religion into the realm of stories, then they'll say, oh, it's like Thomas the Tank Engine.
It's like, no. There are very few wars, none that I can think of, fought over interpretations of Thomas the Tank Engine, right?
People don't dedicate their children to Thomas the Tank Engine.
They don't circumcise based upon commandments in Thomas the Tank Engine.
So she's going to have stories like kids' stories, right?
Oh, this is like Toy Story.
No. Actually, no, right?
So if you're going to use the word story...
You've got to differentiate it somehow.
Now, you know, another way you could say it's like a moral myth or an existence myth or something like that.
But the problem is that myth is prejudicial because once the kid understands the word myth, they're automatically going to say, oh, well, that's not true, right?
And... Yes.
So here's the thing. Sorry, go ahead.
Oh no, what I was going to say is that's something that probably if I had used that word five years ago or something, I don't know how long ago, that's how I would be intending it.
But now I feel like I would get into it and I'd say, well, no, I mean, a myth isn't necessarily literally true, but there's a lot of truth contained in it, you know, that kind of thing.
But I mean, I don't know.
Again, I'm not sure how much of this I would get into with A very young child, but it's a topic that I'm very interested in, so over time I'm sure we will talk a lot about it, you know, so that's my thought there.
Right, so you don't really want to talk about your thoughts directly with your child, is that right?
No, listen, it's not a criticism.
It's not a criticism at all.
I'm just trying to figure out where we're starting from here.
If you could wave a wand and have the child not ask the question at any particular moment, would you wave that wand?
No, no, no. I think it's a good question to ask and I do think it's an important topic.
It's more just I can tell that it's a potential minefield, I guess.
Where it's not that I mind talking about it.
It's more than the child perceives it in a certain way, and then they start talking about it with other people, then maybe it could turn into a conflict with extended family.
It's that kind of thing.
And I value the relationship.
Why on earth would you want your child to ask this question?
I mean, deep down, right? Why would you want your child to ask this question if it's going to lead to conflicts with extended families and complications and mess and problems and confusions, and then your wife's jumping in with, no, it's true, and I mean, let's, again, we want to start, frankly, with the emotional thing.
It's like, the longer that you go without this, isn't it kind of the better it is?
Yeah, I mean, that's probably fair to say.
Okay, okay, good.
Yeah, I mean, and this, we just got to start, you know, because you're like, yeah, it's fine if the kid answers the question.
I love open combat in my gene pool, right?
I mean, that's not what most of us look forward to, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay, okay.
Because it is.
Because it is a challenge, right?
Because if it's a story, then she's not going to, you know, if somebody, if a kid says to me, is the Hobbit real?
I'd say, no, it's a story, right?
Okay. What conflict is that going to lead them into?
Well, none, right? Right.
But this is a different category.
Right. And I think to be authentic with your child, you must, well, with anyone, you have to be, first of all, ruthlessly honest with yourself.
This is not going to be a fun part.
It may be enriching, there may be benefits down the road, like there may be positives, but it's not going to be a fun thing in the moment, right?
Or even thereafter.
Do your extended family know your atheism?
Yeah, but they're very non-confrontational about it, so I don't bring it up and they don't bring it up, but I know that they know, but they've got this thing, you know, and even like my own family, my own parents and stuff, like they, I've even tried to be frank about it and then they, it's, you know, like too painful probably, I guess, for them.
They just, it's almost like they psychologically run the other direction, so.
Oh, so they're a little avoidant, are they?
Yeah, a little bit on that.
Good thing that didn't pass down through any generations in any way, shape, or form.
I mean, because you've inherited that to some degree, right?
Yeah, that's probably true.
He said avoiding slightly.
But also, they're not very committed to their beliefs if they're willing to let it slide with you, right?
Mm-hmm. I mean, I don't know if you've ever heard or seen.
I have no idea what the name of it is.
It's some video I saw many years ago, which was a guy who ended up in hell railing against his Christian friend for not working harder to save his soul beforehand.
Mm-hmm. Have you ever heard of anything like that or seen anything like that?
And so if, as a Christian, they allow your atheism to continue and don't sit down and talk about it with you, they're not, I would say, putting things necessarily in the right priority, if that makes sense. Yeah, though, just a little bit of nuance, which doesn't really change the point.
No! There will be no nuance!
Okay, sorry. Just so you understand.
There will also be no understanding!
Okay, that's it. I've had too many coffees today.
I will shut up. Their particular theology, and I don't know, I'm not...
I'm not enough of an expert on Christianity in general to know if this is weird or not, but they don't believe you can lose your salvation.
So it's, you know, I've got my ticket to heaven.
If that maybe explains why they're like, whoa.
Is it sort of like a Calvinist thing?
Like there's a preordained number, 144,000 or something like that?
I think their thing is like you, once you...
Once you're a believer, then it's like you're a child of God, like you have his life, and you can never be unborn from that or something.
Because a faith is kind of like a tattoo.
Yeah, oh, totally, yeah.
So that's why, you know, there's kind of no downside, really.
Once you're in, you're good.
That is a religious approach that would strongly appeal to non-confrontational people.
No, seriously, you get the whole thing sorted when the child is very young and then it's good right from there.
Yeah. Interesting.
I mean, they wouldn't admit that.
They would say, no, because you're missing out on the purpose of life and all this stuff.
But it's not like they think that by being an atheist, if that's what I am, that I'm going to hell.
That's not where they're...
Yeah, no, I get it.
I get it. Okay. Okay.
That's really interesting. I have not heard of this particular flavor, but then I'm scarcely a theologian myself, so all right.
Okay. But they do have to get it established at some point, right?
I mean, so your kids are going to have to go through a conversion or faith-based process in order to get that tattoo, so to speak, right?
Definitely, yeah. And that's probably where, you know, things are going to get a little exciting, right?
Mm-hmm. Right.
How are you in the conversation at the moment?
I'm not sure where your heart is, because you seem a little...
Like, I'm sort of cornering you with a...
Oh, no, no, no. No, not at all. Holy water or something?
I just don't... No, I just don't want to talk over you.
You know, if you're talking, I don't want to...
Oh, okay. Okay. All right.
Okay. Now...
Daddy, says your kid...
Sure. Why should I be good?
Oh, you should be good.
We don't do punishment really in the house, anything like that.
So it's not a matter of avoiding bad things.
I would probably talk about, Daddy, why should I be good?
Because if you act the right way, things will go better for you in your life.
Huh. Kind of consequences.
You mean like rich and famous actresses and movie stars and politicians?
No, you'll be better positioned to achieve your goals, though I wouldn't word it that way.
Well, no, but they, you know, I look at politicians and movie stars and actresses and singers and they're all very rich and they're very famous and they're very pretty or handsome and they seem to be doing pretty well.
Did they get that way because they're moral?
Is that what you mean? No.
Well, even if that's what they look like on the outside, I just have to assume they're horribly depressed or things, you know, it's just a facade.
But what do I know?
Ah, so I remain a tad unconvinced so far, just so you know, because you said, oh, no, it'll help you achieve your goals.
And it's like, well, what about all these people who've achieved these great goals, but they're not good people?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would say to her, I don't know that that would be her goals.
I say her. I mean, I also have a son, but he's younger, so I'm mostly thinking about her.
But anyway, you know, I think that actors, you know, they still have to...
I don't know. I was going to say they still have to act right in the sense of following through and doing what they say they're going to do in order to just be professionally successful.
So, I mean, that's one aspect of being good.
But that's not virtue. That's just efficiency, right?
I mean, a hitman will do what he says he's going to do at the right time.
It doesn't mean it's a good person, right?
Yeah. So, I mean, I guess just maybe to better answer the question, why should I be good?
I would probably... Think of it in terms of just happiness, you know, sort of internally, but...
Oh, so being good makes you happy?
Yeah. So the people who are doing stuff, they're not...
They're not happy if they're not good?
They're... Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe they end in unhappiness.
I don't know. I don't have a good answer for that yet, I suppose.
Oh, it's a hell of an answer.
It's a hell of a question. Don't get me wrong.
This is like not easy to answer.
Well, actually, it is kind of easy to answer.
It's just not easy for you or me to answer.
Right? So what is your wife's answer?
Hmm. What would she say?
I don't think she would talk about God.
I don't believe she would, actually.
I don't know what her answer would be, but I don't believe it would have anything to do with because you were made by God and you need to glorify or whatever, anything like that.
Or Satan. I mean, that wouldn't be her answer.
So I don't know. So what would she say?
Because, you know, this is the fundamental thing you're doing as a parent, right, is the moral instruction.
And if you and your wife don't have this, you know, this is something you're going to, you may not get it asked explicitly, so to speak, but you sure as heck will get it asked in one form or one way or another.
I mean, I'm going to guess, obviously I don't know what your wife would say either, but I would guess it's something like, well, being moral is obeying the moral rules that are given to us, right?
And by who? Oh, by God.
And here are the moral rules, you know, the Ten Commandments and so on, and that is where being good comes from.
And there are lots of people who are very successful and very powerful and very wealthy and very beautiful and very talented, and they're not good people.
They don't follow these moral rules, and they may achieve a great deal of success and fame and even some degree of happiness, In this life, but it doesn't...
It's kind of the happiness that you get, like when you gorge yourself on your Halloween candy.
You know, like you have a great time while you're doing it, but, you know, afterwards, it's pretty bad.
So that would be probably something around where...
Your wife would get it, but yeah, because every rule that you set up, you know, children are rule smashers in a good way, right?
So every rule you set up for a child, they will immediately go to work on finding the exception.
And, you know, I think human beings kind of as a whole, a little bit like that.
But that is a very important aspect of being a parent that, you know, you set up a rule, they're going to try and find, kids are going to try and find some way of breaking that rule, of finding the invalid aspect of that rule.
And so for you, having the answer about ethics is, I mean, listen, it's a hell of a question.
It's a hell of a question. And if you, and I'm sure you are, if you are a good person, you've answered the question empirically already, and they'll just kind of follow you in the same way that you'll just teach them English by speaking English.
You'll teach them how to be a good person by being a good person.
But the example is not the problem.
The example of being a good person is not the problem.
The problem is the temptation.
The problem is always the temptation.
You know, you're going to send your kids out into the world and there's going to be lots of bad people who are going to try and talk them into doing some pretty terrible things, right?
And it may happen in school.
It may happen like any number of places, right?
And it's the temptation to give them the strength to have the temptation to push back against peer pressure.
That, to me, is the big challenge with this stuff.
And that's where I think trying to find an answer.
To this is pretty important.
I know I haven't given you an answer yet.
Not that I can sort of just peel one off and whip it out, but that's, I think, the challenge you're going to be facing.
Yeah, no, already, I mean, you know, I probably should ask my wife, you know, how would you answer that kind of a question?
Yeah, because if you guys give different answers, ooh, sorry, I interrupted you.
Yeah, if you give different answers, that's going to be a real challenge.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because then it's going to be like, oh dear, collision!
Right? What now?
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
I mean, the way I've thought about it is, you know, Santa Claus.
We, another just interesting insight into the thing, into the particular group of Christians that I grew up in, we never celebrated those holidays.
Christmas, Easter, because they're pagan.
Yeah. Christmas.
Yeah, I mean...
Did they not notice the first five words or did they just have another explanation?
Well, yeah, their argument is that's slapped on.
Oh, yeah, like it was a winter solstice thing and they just kind of jammed.
Exactly. But all that to say, I never celebrated Christmas growing up.
But now, as an adult and someone who, you know, I'm trying to figure out what sorts of traditions fit in with what we want to be doing, I think Christmas is great because it's a, you know, celebration of family and generosity and a time to reflect back on the last year and look forward and all that stuff.
So I think Christmas is wonderful and we're going to be doing it, but we will not be pretending that there's a guy who comes down the chimney because, you know, I don't think that's...
Reality, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I just feel like it's kind of a traumatic moment to find out that your parents have been lying to you for a five or six-year-old or whenever that happens.
And so when I think about that, I almost feel like that's a microcosm of what Christianity is and should be, which is, yeah, it's a story, and that's how I use it.
I know you take issue with that term, so maybe there's a better term.
But anyway, it's this thing that is not literally true, but it does convey some important things.
And the ritual of Christmas is almost the same kind of thing.
So, that's kind of where I was thinking about this issue, where I don't want to pretend like it doesn't exist because then they're going to come into contact with it.
You mean the religion or God?
Yeah, religion, Jesus.
I could see some people who were raised in sort of an intense Christian-type environment just completely rejecting all aspects of it.
And then, and not wanting to even expose their kids to it, and then they hear the story for the first time, then, you know, someone's like floored that they've never heard of Jesus or something, and they're, you know, they've grown up in America.
Right. Well, or, you know, I think that's another big issue that people, the kids, they don't grow up with a moral framework.
Yeah, sure. And then, you mentioned this earlier, you get the nihilism, you get the hedonism, you get all this kind of stuff, right?
Right. Right.
So that's, yeah, that's kind of the spirit of this question, which is how do I present this stuff to them without...
And the other thing, I feel like this is interesting too.
Someone in my wife's family, like extended family member, we were talking and she said that her parents...
We're, I don't know, agnostic or something, but they were not religious growing up.
And she always felt pressured not to be a Christian when she was in school and she'd have Christian friends inviting her to church and stuff.
And she always felt like, oh, if I do that, my parents are going to think I'm an idiot.
Which I don't think the parents certainly would have wanted that, but that was the way the child perceived it.
It's hard to say. There's a lot of vanity in atheism.
Yeah. It's a lot of, like, you know, because Christianity, as I know, growing up with it, I mean, the humility is the key.
Like, how do you pound down the giant ego of a species that can go to the moon and back?
Well, and you need to, to some degree, because, you know, vanity, narcissism, and solipsism, and so on, are all pretty deadly poison pills to our emotional happiness, and so you've got to tamp down the human vanity somehow, and Because our minds are bigger than the universe, right? Because our minds can traverse the entire length and breadth and depth and history and all of that of the universe.
And so you just make something even bigger than the universe that makes the human mind feel smaller and fit back into its humble, empirical reality, right?
Because we can make up some crazy stuff.
Like, I'm just reading the audiobook of my novel, Almost.
And it's so complex, and it's so vivid, and it's like it is a whole world in, you know, 800 pages, a whole series of worlds.
And, you know, of course, none of it existed for real, and it's, you know, all made up and all that, but, you know, the power of our imagination is so great that we do need something.
And for me, that was philosophy. You know, most artists are crazy.
Like, they're very left. They're very subjectivist.
They're very manipulative and so on.
And because they have nothing with which to tamp down the vanity of their powers.
And you really do need things to make you humble.
Now, empiricism and reason and philosophy does that because however vivid and powerful your ideas are, your arguments are, it matters whether they're true.
It matters whether they're factual.
It matters whether they're sustainable.
Yeah. And so I think that Christianity does that, but there's an enormous amount of vanity in, I mean, Hitchens and Dennett and Harris and Richard Dawkins and so on.
Yeah, I mean, there's a huge amount of vanity.
The edgy teenager who, you know, thinks they've Answered all questions and then they become just insufferable for about five years.
You know what I mean? Well, it's the fedora cliche, right?
Which is, you know, a pretty accurate one.
And the humility of Christians is a very powerful thing.
And there's a reason why Christianity gave rise in the West to the modern world, along with the Enlightenment and the Renaissance and philosophy and so on.
Because science is humility.
And I did a conversation years ago with Tom Woods about the role that the Catholic Church had in promoting science, because, of course, all I'd ever heard was how bad it was for the Catholic, how terrible it was for people and so on.
But there is – science is humility.
Science is, hey, it doesn't matter how cool your theory is.
It only matters how true it is fundamentally.
And that is really, really important.
So, and morality is a form of humility in that, you know, people who are...
Look, honestly, if you listen to this show, you're a smart person.
You're a verbal person, and you can probably talk people into or out of a lot of different things.
Because, you know, to some degree, you're like Michael Jordan in a pickup game in the neighborhood, right?
I mean, you can win most times.
You can get your way.
You can... Get people to obey you.
And the question is, well, why don't you?
Because you get a lot of resources out of stuff like that.
And you can get a lot of fame.
You can get a lot of power. You can talk women into having sex with you or men.
Not that that's that tough.
So, yeah. What is it that limits your behavior?
Well, of course... Honestly...
Yeah, go ahead. Okay, okay.
What I was going to say is my answer to that has...
I would probably boil it down to...
The old line where you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.
So no matter how smart you are, and you see it all the time with sociopaths or narcissists who think they're smarter than everyone, and they might be smarter than most people, but eventually they get caught.
So even that, I'm not saying that's the best answer, but that's an answer of what limits you.
Well, since I don't really know I mean, you should probably just live by this moral code, whatever it's going to be, because it'll catch up with you eventually.
That's kind of the way I think about that.
Yeah, but here's the problem. I mean, I agree with you, but here's the problem.
Empirically, it doesn't. Look at someone like George W. Bush, right?
That guy started a war in Iraq, killed half a million people, right?
And here he is. He's got his little iPad.
He's showing people his paintings.
He's watching sports games with Ellen DeGeneres.
And, you know, how is it catching up with him?
I mean, Barack Obama dropped 100,000 bombs in the Middle East.
Yeah. Put in Obamacare, which drove healthcare prices up and dropped hundreds of thousands of refugees and so on with no particular plan of integration.
Is it catching up with him?
No. Well, to me, I mean, you can say, well, there's a secret unhappiness back in, but, you know, you got to be empirical, not just theoretical, right?
Yeah, no. What I would say to that is that just demonstrates the evil of the state.
You know, those examples just show how shielded those people are.
Once you can get into those halls of power, then you're kind of untouchable no matter what you do.
Right, so then, you know, so then you get into the halls of power.
I'm just giving you the devil's advocate position, right?
Sure. Oh, so you can escape from negative consequences if you just get enough power.
Yeah. Maybe.
Because the problem is you've got all of these people who are deeply, deeply immoral.
They're having a great time.
From what you can tell, right?
They're having a great time. They're rich.
They're successful.
They're, you know...
Ruth Bader Ginsburg cited significant legal precedent that the age of consent should be lowered to 12.
Notorious RBG. She's cool.
She's hip. Everyone's praising her.
She loved her job.
Okay, where's her punishment, so to speak, right?
Mm-hmm. It's like saying that bad people are going to suffer.
Ah, you know? It's pretty tough, especially for kids, because you're asking them to see something that's pretty well hidden.
Yeah. Well, I guess maybe for me, and this probably is also a function of how young they still are, and we don't really use punishment, even if If she's throwing tantrums all day, then we're not going to offer...
Anyway, it's less like...
I try not to go there very often, unless I have to.
Anyway, not to get into that subject, but what I was going to say is...
It's less, oh, if you do the wrong thing, you're going to suffer, and more, like, why be good?
Because then you'll live a more fulfilled life.
That's the way I would think about it.
That's the way I would try to present it, you know?
But, I mean, I don't know if that's true, but that's...
Well, see, that's a problem, right?
Because if you're going to plant a tree here and you're saying, well, I don't know if there's any soil down here, that's a problem.
Because this is pretty important stuff, right?
Yeah. I don't know if it's true in all cases, I should say.
I think it is a good, like, heuristic, you know, a good direction to go.
But it's hedonistic.
You're saying be good for pleasure.
And there's a lot of times, I just think about my last year and a half, there's a lot of times where being good kind of sucks.
Yeah. And if you're saying, well, do it for fulfillment and do it, I don't mean to mock you or anything.
Sorry, that's unfair. But if you're saying, like, do it for fulfillment or, you know, happiness or whatever, you know, the challenge is that it's going to suck a whole lot, a lot of times.
Yeah. I envied my friends.
When I was a teenager into my early 20s, because they skated over this whole self-knowledge thing, this self-limiting thing, this taming the wild mammal monkey ego of humanity.
They just kind of bypassed all this stuff.
And they were like...
I felt... I mean, it's a sort of stupid thing.
It's sort of like I had to do all the stretching.
They could just go and run. I had to sort of work up and work out, and they could just go and run.
And they just went off and did their thing.
Didn't go to therapy.
Didn't confront themselves.
Didn't deal with their history. Like, none of that stuff, right?
And now, you know, I get it.
Like, I looked back over time, and I get it.
Like, I understand that it didn't work out too well for them.
But... You'd kind of have to know them really well in order to be able to figure that out.
And, you know, the problem is that people who are secretly unhappy, they do a lot of advertising.
And it's pretty hard to see through.
Right. I mean, the Spice Girls.
You knew I was going to bring that up next, right?
For sure. Yeah, you understand.
You're too young for that, right? So, the Spice Girl.
So, the one who could sing, her nickname was Sporty Spice.
Mel C or something like that, right?
Now, I just happened to read this because in no way, shape, form am I ever into celebrity gossip.
Actually, I love gossip, but it's a topic for another time, right?
Okay, so Mel C was just about...
The most famous singer in the 90s, right?
She was part of a group, right?
The Spice Girls, right?
And when she was in the Spice Girls, and she was like at the very top of any kind of success metric that any performer would ever want to have.
I mean, people were mental about this.
If you weren't around for the Spice Girls phenomenon, man, you've really missed Beatlemania with a halter top, right?
And she became, of course, staggeringly wealthy and all of that.
And she was like 20 when she just responded to an advertisement to form some girl group.
This was in like 1994.
And of course, you sit there and you say, wow, you know, I'd love to be successful, right?
Wouldn't it be great to be successful?
And then what happens?
Well, what happens is you get as much success as you could conceivably want And she said, and here's a quote, And it's...
She was struggling to get out of bed.
Was very teary at the depths of her depression.
She ended up finally seeking help in the year 2000.
She got into therapy and all of that.
I mean, gosh, you look at Pink.
She's been married forever to this guy.
And they've been in therapy their entire marriage.
14 years or something like that, right?
And, yeah, she was addicted to exercise.
She stopped eating properly.
And she also, like, really, really...
Got sick. As she says, I began to become very, very ill.
She explained that she grew up as a confident and ambitious child, but all of that changed when her image was consistently scrutinized as part of the Spice Girls.
She revealed that it was around the millennium.
She began feeling low and struggled to get out of bed despite her jam-packed schedule.
She said, I was really worried for my sanity.
I was binge eating as well.
I went to my doctor and he said to me, the first thing you need to address is your depression.
And of course, that was like, oh, what?
Really, what? And anyway, so long story short, but...
You look at these people, you know, she's thin, she's pretty, she's talented, she's famous, she's rich, she's successful, you know.
And she also was the one who had a really great voice.
And it's a miserable existence.
It's a miserable existence for the most part.
And yeah, it's like Brian May, a guitarist.
I don't know anything about the guy in particular other than he was suicidal at one point in the band.
And he has always had an air of just significant mournfulness about him, probably because he's really paranoid about global warming or whatever.
But no, it was even before then, right?
So, but asking kids, like, if you ask, if you look at the Spice Girls who are, like, screaming and singing and dancing and poppy and happy and all that kind of stuff, right?
And if you say to your kid, yeah, but secretly they're miserable, I mean, what's your kid going to think?
Well, yeah, no, I mean, that's fair.
And I think that would be a bad argument that secretly they're miserable.
Maybe I did say that, but I think maybe a better way to put it is...
You know, they'll get theirs eventually.
And we addressed that already.
That's also not always true, you know.
But just like, yeah, the Spice Girls, it's sort of short-term pleasure, but long-term not, you know.
So, yeah.
No, but here's the thing, right? So here's the thing, right?
I'm sorry to interrupt again. But here's the thing.
When it comes to people getting theirs, see, Christians...
Have it a little easier than philosophers.
You see, because in Christianity, who makes sure bad people get theirs?
Satan. No, no, no.
Satan tempts bad people to do bad things.
Who makes sure that they get punished?
Of God, then. Yeah.
You know that big book of Peter's at the pearly gates?
They make sure, man, that nobody gets away.
So if you're wronged, you say, okay, well, yeah, I'm wronged, but my God, they will get theirs, right?
I don't have to lift a finger.
Now, some Christians get kind of passive about this, which I don't agree with, and many Christians wouldn't agree with that either, but it happens on its own, right?
Now, Who is it who is responsible for bad people getting theirs in the secular world?
Yeah, you'd have to admit that there doesn't appear to be anyone like that.
Yeah, you know this nonsense, hallmark bullshit statement, the arc of the universe is long but bends towards justice.
It's like, no, it doesn't. Are you kidding?
Look at the French Revolution, for God's sakes.
Look at Khmer Rouge.
Look at communism. Look at fascism.
Come on. It bends towards justice.
Nonsense. I wonder if you could maybe make the counter-argument.
Have you read that book, Matt Ridley, The Rational Optimist?
Familiar with that one? Oh, yes.
I mean, it's kind of old, but if you look at all the statistics, everything is getting better.
It just takes a long time. If you're rational and you're looking at all the data, there's a good case for not buying into all the alarmism.
Yeah, but those are all markers of human physical well-being that completely ignore the reality of debt.
I mean, so like that book and those books, and look, I had Bjorn Lomberg on the show years ago, the skeptical environmentalist or whatever.
Yeah, I mean, there's certainly, listen...
I mean, people are wealthier.
Hunger is down. Starvation is down.
Healthcare accessibility is up.
Education is up. And, you know, the best contraception is industrialization.
So, I mean, I get all of that.
But they seem to kind of skip over the whole...
Massive unfunded liabilities.
Because it's like, hey man, I'm just living off my visa.
My life is way better.
This is huge improvement.
There's no reason to be anxious.
It's like, yeah, well what happens when the visa bill comes due?
I don't need to deal with that too much.
So this rational optimism stuff, if it wasn't based on debt, if it was genuine free market stuff, I'd be like, yay.
But every human life in this world is...
Propped up by at least $30,000.
And that's a couple of years ago now.
It's probably $40,000 of debt, right?
So, yeah, everything's getting better.
It's like, yes, but we're still borrowing from the future to bribe the present.
No, the responsibility for making sure bad people get theirs is yours and mine.
There's no third party involved.
You can't say, well, it's a state because the bad people go to the state.
Because we pointed out earlier, that's where the smartest bad people go, right?
Yeah. So, you know, it's up to us.
It's you and me.
And I guess you, if you're listening to this, but that's...
We're the ones...
We're the ones. And there's no backup.
There's no one else, no force of the universe, no physics, no God.
And if it's just pure mammal stuff, you know, they do way better than us, right?
If it's just pure resource acquisition, compromise and lack of integrity and surrendering to the masses and stroking the vanity of democracy and so on, that all makes you a fortune.
And standing up for what's true and what's right and what's good, well, history is full of people.
It did not work out very well for them at all.
And so it's a tough case to make.
If we can't offer people heaven or threaten them with hell, that's the big challenge, right?
So I always say in parenting, the greatest creativity comes out of not punishing, because then you've got to figure out how to civilize a child, so to speak, without punishment, without bribery.
But it's the same thing is true with philosophy, is that we have to figure out how to motivate people.
We can't threaten them with hell, and we can't bribe them with heaven.
And as I've said in this show many, many times, hey, welcome to philosophy.
The shitstorm starts here.
I can't even give you cool abs.
A lot of sit-ups. It's painful.
It's like, yeah, but you get cool abs.
Philosophy can't even offer that.
It might just be a sliding shit show to nothing, right?
Right. Absolutely.
So, yeah. I think I just talked myself out of philosophy, so I'm going to just change the name of the show on the website here.
All right. Shitstorm Mammal Acquisition Matrix.
There we go. There we go.
Celebrity gossip. Man, don't tempt me.
Don't tempt me. I love that stuff.
Okay, so, yeah, your kids are going to ask?
Well, I mean, what did you say?
I mean, if I can ask.
Yeah, okay. You can ask.
Of course. I mean, look, I'm not going to ask people to reveal the deepest, darkest secrets of themselves.
So yeah, you model the behavior for sure.
And one thing kids are incredible at is noticing contradictions.
And they don't like them. And this is particularly true when they start to hit, you know, the teen storms, the tween storms of, you know, incipient puberty and so on, right?
They're really, really good at noticing contradictions.
So the way it works for me is, you know, like, tell the truth, right?
So I keep my word, right?
And even when it's not particularly pleasant, right?
I'll keep my word.
If I've got a headache and my daughter wants to go bike riding and I said I'd go bike riding, unless it's a real pounder, which is very rare for me, I'll go bike riding, right?
find a way to make it work find a way to to do it right and if you keep your word then as your child lies to you as they inevitably will then you say to them wait you just you didn't keep your word right And then the bribery is, do you want predictable behavior on my part that gives you pleasure?
Because for me, morality is not some abstract set of rules like the Ten Commandments or physics, so to speak, that you simply enact regardless of reciprocity, consequences, right?
To me, morality...
And I don't think it's just to me.
I think it's a good case. Morality is a relationship.
You don't owe people higher moral standards than they provide to you, right?
Or that they give to you. In the same way that, you know, if somebody ships you an empty iPad box when you bought an iPad, you don't have to ship them a check for 500 bucks because they didn't keep their end of the bargain up.
It's the same thing with morality.
We owe honesty to people who've earned that trust and who are honest with us.
We don't owe honesty...
To people who are dishonest with us and so on, right?
So honesty and good virtuous behavior and good behavior is like a medal.
It's like a reward. It's like a prize that we give to people who behave in a good manner, in an honest and consistent manner.
And So with my daughter, if she, as she inevitably did, would lie or break her word or whatever, I'd be like, oh, okay, so can I do that now?
Like, can I make a promise and then break it?
No, right? Well, why?
Well, that's bad, right?
I need to be able to trust you.
Aha! Right? You need to be able to trust me, do you?
Do you think that that goes both ways, right?
And it's about being honest, right?
So if I'm in a good mood, which I usually am, if I'm in a good mood, then we can have a lot of fun.
If for whatever reason, right?
It can happen. This will happen with your kids and this happens to every parent.
So you do a lot of roughhousing when you're younger and it's a great deal of fun.
And then what happens is you get older and your kids get bigger and stronger and then they will end up injuring you.
And you will remind them.
And it's part of the process of growing, of knowing your own strength, of managing your own strength.
All this is a natural, healthy part of growing up.
But at some point, it would just bug the hell out of you because you'll just get injured right after you said, be careful, right?
And the kid's not being careful, right?
Now, what that means is, for me, at least, okay, well, we're going to stop roughhousing for a little while because I don't enjoy it.
I don't enjoy it if I'm constantly thinking, oh, I hope I don't get my eye gouged or something like that, right?
Or the shot to the nuts, which seems to be inevitable when you're a father, right?
And it's not like I'm sitting there saying, I want to, but I'm going to withhold roughhousing because I'm mad and I'm punishing you.
It's nothing like, I don't want to.
I don't enjoy it when I get injured.
I don't enjoy it when I'm anticipating getting injured.
Like, it's just not fun for me, so I'm not going to do it.
Oh, please, please, please.
It's like, no, I don't want to.
Like, I'm not even that sorry.
Like, I just don't want to.
And I said, look, look, in the same way, if I kept cooking meals that you hated eating, would you want me to cook you a meal?
Well, no, because you don't enjoy it, right?
So you don't want me to do that, right?
So that kind of universality, reciprocity, and honesty...
It's really important. I don't want to give my daughter these abstract moral rules that she has to follow no matter what because that means that she's going to be exploited in this world, right?
We all know this, right?
This is a big problem in the West that we have this pathological altruism that is not reciprocated elsewhere in the world, to put it mildly, right?
So... It's a relationship.
Treat people the best you can when you first meet them.
After that, treat them as they treat you.
That's how morality in a productive and practical and empirical sense works.
Morality is empirical, not absolute in that sense, right?
So to me, it's just about if you want to have positive and productive relationships with people, Then stand up for yourself and demand reciprocity based upon good behavior and you can withdraw participation.
You can withdraw participation and, in fact, you probably should, certainly if that's what you feel like, if you're being treated in an unjust or unkind or careless manner, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah, no, that sounds good.
Because if you're raising a child to be rational, sensible, honest, decent, and have integrity, you're setting them up as a giant mark for the world.
Like, it's sad, but true.
Be generous, be kind, be thoughtful, be considerate, be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Be exploited! Yeah.
Because people will just, they'll just pillage that like a bunch of Vikings falling upon a dwarf Irish village.
But I think the most important aspect of this is your job is not to tell your child what you think.
Your job is to get your child to think.
Right, so if your child says, why be good?
So that is a very big and important question.
I'm so thrilled that you've asked it.
I have some thoughts, but I really want to know what you think.
Right? Get her or him to talk about what they think.
Because here's the thing. Sorry, I'm using that phrase too much tonight, but what the hell.
So... You are, as a dad, like a god to them.
And so as soon as you say something, that's just what it is.
That's just the way it is.
And it's really hard for them to grow a plant in the giant shadow of your thinking.
Because, you know, you're 30, you're 40, you're experienced, you're huge, you go out, you make mysterious money, things happen, you know, you have to be asked for everything sometimes.
And so it's really, really hard for kids To think for themselves once the father reveals the conclusion, if that makes sense.
Yes. So my daughter will ask questions and I'll be like, what do you think?
I would talk about what I think, but what do you think?
I'm happy to share what I think, but let's talk about you.
Because then you've got to figure out then what is motivating or driving or stimulating your child.
Yeah. To be a teacher means you must first be a learner, right?
This is why when you and I started the conversation tonight, the first thing I said was, is there anything you want to add or anything you need to add or anything that you want to put in?
And you hear that I say this all the time, right?
Mm-hmm. So that's the key, I think.
Yeah, no, I think that's great.
I mean, I've listened to your show a lot, so it seems kind of funny to be like, yes, I agree, because honestly, not just you, but, you know, anyway, I hear a lot of my own approach, but, I mean, before I had kids, I was listening to, you know, a lot of your ideas on peaceful parenting, and then not just you, some of the people that you've had on your show, like...
I think it was because you interviewed Dr.
Gabor Mate that I went and read some of his books, so that really influenced me too.
Anyway, this is all stuff that I feel like I do, but yeah, I mean...
If she were to ask me tomorrow what I think about these things, I don't know that I would have immediately come back and said, what do you think?
I probably would have ventured an answer.
So that's a good reminder.
That's probably important.
I think so. Yeah, I think trying to figure out where your kids are starting from is really important.
Plus, you know, they might blow your minds.
Because they have original thoughts and you and I have less original thoughts because we probably won't ask that when we were younger, right?
No, certainly not. No, I remember when I was a little kid in that environment, you know, my parents were great and everything, but they were just very religious and very, you know, Everyone pretends, everyone says they want to teach their kids how to think, not what to think.
That's kind of what we were getting at.
But then, of course, they're not.
They're still very interested in indoctrinating their kids.
So I remember one particular time when I was younger than 10, but I had this thought of like, whoa, what if there are other...
Like we read the Adam and Eve story.
What if God had set up like a whole bunch of different Adam and Eve's and then different ones had chosen different, you know, and like they're all living out different timelines.
And I just remember having this like very distinct feeling like, oh, wow, that was the wrong thing to say because my parents, they didn't like yell at me, but it was just sort of like, oh, man, I kind of went there on there like, no, that's just not true.
So, you have those little experiences here and there, and you realize, like, oh, there's certain things you can't say, you can't think.
Right. Yeah, and some of it, of course, is your parents generally trying to protect you from social blowback.
Yeah, maybe. That's probably true.
No, I mean, because, you know, well, you start talking about this stuff, and people get really mad at you, and it's like, oh, let's just give them the easy stuff, right?
Yeah, yeah. I also wondered if I was in part of the Third Testament at one point.
I remember. I was like in Sunday school.
I was like, man, maybe somebody's going to write about me.
Right. Tell me a little bit more about the Third Testament.
I mean, I don't know.
It's not that I wasn't doing anything interesting, but you're reading about all these disciples and apostles and everything, and of course you believe it as the gospel, so to speak.
So I just assumed, like, oh wow, if people were writing about these guys, then maybe...
Someone's going to come along and write about other people, and I'm another person.
Yeah, I'm a person, right?
Why not? I think I was younger, though.
I remember I was probably six or seven or something when I thought that.
No, but see, that would be interesting, right?
Yeah. That would be a fascinating thing for a parent to say, well, tell me more, right?
Absolutely. And I'm just thinking if my daughter were to say something like that, I would be like, that is a great point.
I would love to hear you say that.
Not because I think she's...
Anyway, whatever. A kid is going to say all kinds of crazy things, but it's funny and also very interesting to find out what's going on in their world.
So, you know, but...
Yeah, figure out where they're coming from to start.
I mean, nobody starts building a house without doing a survey, right?
You can't start trading knowledge without figuring out where people are coming from.
I mean, you can, but it just seems a little rude.
Yeah, right.
And whatever the child comes up with that is more personal and self-generated is much more likely to stick longer, if that makes sense.
Okay. Okay. Yeah, I think that's, you know, because you really, of course, want your kids to take whatever ethics you want them to have and just really stick with it and have it stick with them and so on.
And if it's just something you've told them, I think kind of in general it's one ear at the other, in one ear at the other.
Mm-hmm. And, yeah, kids who are listened to, I think, end up, I think it's just better all around.
Sorry, that's not much of an argument, but you know what I mean.
It's just better all around, that's what I'm saying.
Yeah, you just, you know, you'll figure it out.
Yeah. Is that a good place to start?
Yeah. No, no, that's great.
I think... Yeah, I mean, it's hard because I didn't give you a lot of details.
Not that there are any to give, but I think it's just kind of inevitable, given the broader family that we're in, that there are going to be problems.
But I don't anticipate conflict, you know?
It's not like I'm the only one in my family that has raised kids.
I have a brother who is also...
Atheist, or I think he calls himself a hopeful agnostic, but, you know.
But anyway, like, he raises kids in that way, and it's not like that was ever an issue with them.
So I don't think it's going to be a problem, but I also, you know, it's more just, like, wanted to get your thoughts on that, what you've provided, which is great, but, you know, on just an approach to, yeah, to just talking about these issues, given that they're going to be hearing all kinds of different influences.
Yeah, what are you going to do for education, do you think?
Home, school. Okay, good.
Yeah, because otherwise you really are throwing them to the wolves, right?
Yeah, I mean, we're in California, so.
Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Okay. Yeah.
All right. Good.
Okay. All right. Well, let's move on to the next caller.
Thanks very much. And of course, as always, you know, keep me posted about how it goes.
And if there's ever anything else I could do, please let me know.
Okay. Thank you very much.
Thanks, man. Great chat. Alright, next up.
Next up we have a caller who writes, My boyfriend and I, mid-twenties, have been dating on and off for a year and a half.
We love each other and want to get married and start a family, but at the same time, we are unhappy.
He's upset with me because I can hurt his feelings a lot and bring up problems in a relationship without much patience.
Often I lose hope and say we should just break up.
My whole life I've heard people tell me that I'm mean or too harsh, and it's especially a problem in relationships.
How do I fix this problem?
When I try to talk about it or look at it, my mind gets all muddled and I can't think clearly.
I'm confused if I'm actually harsh or if people just don't want the truth or opinions spoken clearly.
Sometimes people say they're really grateful they can always count on me for an honest opinion.
I'd love it if people would speak to me openly, though.
I feel like if someone were to adjust my flaws directly, without trying to tiptoe around my feelings, that it means they really love me because they want me to get better.
They're willing to risk my getting upset to say it, and they think I can handle it.
Hmm. All right.
I appreciate that. Are you both on, or just you?
Just me. All right.
All right. Tell me a little bit about your start in life, the early days of you.
Uh, well, I have a really good family.
I have, um, two brothers and, um, I don't know.
I had a really good childhood. And what do your parents think of your...
Oh, tell me, sorry, tell me a little bit about your dating history, sorry, before we get to the parental units.
Uh, well, basically I had some bad ideas about, like, how to attract men.
So I didn't date anyone until college and then just dated one person in college.
And then after college have been dating a lot of guys.
And how many boyfriends have you had?
I had like five or six probably.
Right. And what were the bad ideas you had about how to attract a man?
Well, so my parents kind of, my dad chased my mom for a long time basically, for like four years.
And then eventually she fell in love with him and they got married.
And I think my mom basically, like, passed that on to me as, like, dating strategy.
Like, I was supposed to be, like, hard to get, basically, and, like, kind of cold and, like, not flirtatious or anything.
Or, like, not warm.
Interesting. So tell me a little bit more about your parents' courtship.
That's very interesting. Yeah, I don't know.
My dad just, like, fell in love with my mom and, like, basically, like, stalked her.
And she was, like, well, they were friends.
They were friends for four years.
And he just, like, really pursued her.
And she was, like, totally against it, like, didn't see him as, like, a partner in that way.
They were just good friends. And then all of a sudden, she, like, changed her mind and, like, they got engaged really, really quickly.
Yeah. And then when they were engaged, she was kind of having like dreams from God saying like, yeah, you're doing the right thing.
It's going to work out well.
And now they have a pretty good marriage.
Quite a lot there.
Quite a lot in there that needs to be probably talked about.
So was it God who changed her mind?
I'm not sure. I don't know.
I don't know what changed her.
How long did your dad pursue her for?
Like four years.
My god. Yeah.
How pretty is she? She's pretty.
She's pretty, yeah? I think it's mostly her personality.
She's a really good person.
I don't know about that.
I mean, I'm not saying she's not a good person, but for a guy to pursue a woman for four years...
Oh man, that's...
I mean, I'm not saying it's stalking.
I'm just saying it's stalking.
Maybe light stalking.
Yes, but somehow it worked out.
But somehow that's the problem, right?
The somehow is the problem.
And that, I think, is what we kind of need to try and figure out, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe something like he needed to prove that he was loyal or committed or something.
Four years is crazy. Sorry, I don't mean to be overly brusque, but four years.
How old were they when they got married?
Pretty young, like 22, I think.
23, maybe. Wow.
Okay, so we've got late teens to sort of early mid-twenties.
That's what's going on, right? Yeah, they met in college.
Okay. Did she, you know, did she date other men at this point or was she...
Yeah, I think they both dated other people.
Oh, they both dated. So he wasn't just finding and hanging around.
He was also doing his own thing, right?
I think so, yes.
Yeah. Wow. Wow.
Okay. But of course, that's your measure of success, right?
Yeah. That worked.
And that's, yeah, that's a real challenge.
So tell me the kind of conflicts that you get into with your boyfriend.
Well... I guess, like, we're kind of, like, thinking about marriage and stuff.
And we still have some problems in our relationship that, like, kind of bother me.
And we're trying to work through them, but basically I'm feeling, like, impatient about it.
Well, about a number of them.
And... I'll kind of like bring stuff up and then I'll just talk about it for a long time and be like, just be like, this is a really big problem.
I feel bad about it.
And it's just like really hard on him because a lot of it just feels like I'm like railing on him.
Okay, can you think of an example?
I know it's sometimes tough in the moment, but...
Yeah, um...
I don't know. I'm nervous about sharing too many details on a public.
Yeah, yeah. Whatever you're comfortable with.
It can be very abstract if you like.
Yeah, I'll get upset about a certain dynamic that we have that he's trying to change and feels bad about, but I'll keep bringing it up.
Okay, so a dynamic such as?
Um... Well, like, sexual stuff is kind of, like, one thing that's been coming up recently.
Oh! Okay, so this is why you're feeling a little uncomfortable about this.
Okay. Yeah. Well, I don't want to, like, be...
I don't want to, like, be rude to him, you know?
No, no, I... Hey, I appreciate that, and I don't want you to be rude to him either.
Unless that's what he's into. In which case, be rude to him.
Yeah. Um...
Okay, so, um...
Is it, okay, and I'm just going to ask and, you know, don't obviously, don't reveal or talk about anything you're not comfortable with.
I'm not trying to give you some sort of me too moment here, but just to give me a sense, if it's sexual stuff that's there, is it that, like, he wants to do stuff, you don't want to do stuff, you don't want to do, you want to do stuff, he doesn't want to do stuff, is it frequency, is it what that kind of stuff?
Yeah, kind of like frequency and like a certain type of interacting, which is like okay but it's kind of like he kind of has like one thing that he's like particularly like interested in and it seems like I kind of have to like play into that a bit and sometimes it feels like he's like not really attracted to like me.
Oh, so it's a sort of physical act or a sexual act that he's really into?
No, more like, yeah, kind of like a psychological dynamic.
Okay. I don't mind groping around in the fog a little bit here, and again, I'm sensitive to your sensitivity with regards to these issues.
Is it like a role-play thing?
Yeah, like role-play, basically.
I mean, we're not having sex either because I'm Christian.
Okay, I'm just, hang on, I'm just winching my jaw back off the floor.
Not that you're Christian, and not that you're not having sex, but there is a sexual dynamic or something that's occurring at the absence of actually having sex, right?
Yeah. And your concern is that that's going to play over into the marriage?
Yeah. So, is it that he wants you to be someone other than who you are?
In the bedroom, so to speak?
Yeah, it's like he wants to change me in a certain way.
Implants? No, I don't know.
No. It's really guessing.
So he wants you to pretend to be someone other than who you are?
Yeah. Okay, okay, I got it.
Yeah, I think this is all very delicately put.
Which is fine every once in a while, but it's not like I don't want all our interactions to be like that.
Well, of course not. Yeah.
Of course not. I mean, you know, if it's...
I'm obviously just really groping in the dark here, but if it's some sort of Sailor Moon fetish, it's like, well, not every time.
Because, you know, is it me or the Japanese anime that you care about, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. And how do those conversations go?
Um... He doesn't like it about himself, and it actually took him a long time to express that to me, and I helped draw it out of him.
Oh, so he's regretful of these impulses himself?
Yeah, he doesn't like it.
Oh, but it gets his juices flowing, so to speak, but he doesn't like that it does?
Yeah. Right.
No, and listen, I mean, I don't have to tell you this, of course, right?
But just for the audience as a whole...
The vulnerability that a woman has in the sexual act, you know, she's got some big giant bald ape pinning her down, so to speak, right?
And so the amount of trust that has to be there and the amount of empathy and connection that needs to be there for a woman to enjoy sex is very high and often it's higher than what a man, you know, we're a bit of a sort of spray and pray species, so to speak, at least this side of the gender divide.
And so if there is a feeling of dehumanization, In sexuality, I pretty much think it's impossible for a woman to really enjoy that.
Again, I'm not trying to speak to your experiences or anything, but that's the way that I approach these kinds of issues.
Because you want to know that he's there for you, not just your body, right?
Yeah, I want him to be attracted to me. Yeah. Right.
Whereas if you've got to change things considerably in order to get his attraction, it's like, okay, is it me or the blue wig or whatever it's going to be, right?
Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Right. And so he's not happy with it.
You're not happy with it, which I guess begs the question, well, then why wouldn't it change?
Or at least that would be the commitment.
Yeah, he's working on it.
But basically, I'm feeling really impatient because I'm anxious about having kids soon.
So I'm just like, okay, if we can't sort all our stuff out really soon, we should just break up and I need to date someone else.
And of course, that makes it worse and just makes it more stressed and stuff.
And you've been a year and a half, right?
Yeah, kind of on and off dating.
Basically, we've been more serious about each other for like...
The good part of a year.
On and off dating.
I'm afraid you've just bumped into one of my potentially irrational prejudices.
Uh-huh. So if somebody said, I have a pretty good job, but I keep quitting or getting fired, and then I'll sort of go back and get the job again, and then I keep quitting or getting fired, then I go back and get the job again, what would you say? Seems like a problem.
Seems like they don't really want the job.
Yeah. Yeah.
The on-again, off-again stuff.
Oof. That's in many ways the worst kind of relationship.
Because this is what you're calling, right?
Because if you have a breakup, that's tough.
But, you know, Band-Aid's off, right?
And if you're together and you're happy, that's great.
But if it's this start-stop stuff, oof.
Yeah, that's exactly the thing.
And basically, I'm trying to just be like, okay, well, we should just like decide one way or the other.
And I keep like oscillating between them.
And then that kind of causes the like breaking up and getting back together.
Right, right.
So you're considered to be a pretty blunt person, right?
Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to assume that you don't mind bluntness too much.
Go for it. All right, here we go.
It's because he has something that you want for the sake of vanity or status or something like that.
Because if the personality or the sexuality or the, you know, whatever is going on is difficult enough that you keep breaking up, the question is, well, why do you go back?
And my guess...
I'm not going to give you an exact statistic, but roughly 98 times out of 100.
The reason you go back is that he has something that appeals to you that's not just plain old virtue.
Like maybe he's really good looking, or maybe he's got a big career ahead of him, or maybe he's wealthy, or maybe there's something that is positive about him over and above or outside of his deep virtues as a human being that draws you back, right? So there's something about him that drives you away, and there's something about...
Him that draws you in.
Now, it usually is one of two things.
Either his virtues draw you in, but there's something about his appearance or his lack of prospects or something that drives you out.
Or his hotness, his wealth, his status, his prospects or whatever, they draw you in, but then there's something about his personality that pushes you back out.
I mean, it could be something else, but that's my first take on it.
Yeah, it's kind of hard for me to articulate.
It's something about his personality that I really, really like.
And his commitment to wanting to make himself better and making the world better and helping me get better.
No, I don't believe that.
Sorry. I could be wrong.
I could be completely wrong.
But that totally felt like an artificial sales pitch.
Because personality tends to be kind of an integrated whole, right?
So it's very rare. He's not integrated.
He's not integrated. It feels like his mind is divided, and part of it is very present and very well developed, and then part of it feels not developed at all.
He's really out of touch with his body, and that part of his mind just feels not present.
All right, that's quite a Rubik's Cube you've got going on there, sister.
Tell me...
Ah, that just needs a whole bunch of unpacking, which I'm very happy to do and to hear about.
But yeah, let's hear more.
Well, so basically I did like a psychological retreat called the Hoffman Process, and I've like adopted their like theory of mind, which is like people are quadrinities.
So it's like spiritual self, emotional self, intellect and body.
And like the goal is kind of to get all of these four things like working together.
That's kind of what like being integrated is.
And I'm kind of looking at him and he's like really, really well developed along two dimensions.
And then like one or maybe two others are like kind of lacking.
And it seems like part of himself is kind of like bullying the other parts of himself.
Okay. Now, for one of us in the conversation, that probably has clarified a whole lot.
Sorry. So for one of us in the conversation, that has probably clarified a whole lot, but not for both of us.
if you can give me something just a smidge more specific about these issues oh can you hear me oh yeah you're back Oh, I'm so sorry about that. So, for one of us in the conversation that really clarified stuff, But unfortunately, just not for both of us.
And that one person is not me, by the way.
Just in case you're wondering.
So if you can give me something more tangible.
Again, I haven't gone through this Hoffman thing.
I don't really understand the matrix.
So if you can just give me something more tangible that you dislike.
That I dislike. Okay, he's like out of touch with his body.
And he can't like feel things very well.
So wait, is that his body or his emotions?
Oh, no. He's pretty good emotionally.
It's his body. What do you mean?
He's a leper? I don't know. What do you mean?
Are you sticking with a pin he doesn't notice?
What do you mean he can't feel things in his body?
Well, he's gotten a lot better, but he actually got a cut a while ago, and it got infected, and someone had to notice that it was a big problem, visibly a problem, and then drove him to the hospital.
Because he was just ignoring it.
Huh. It was a visible cut, I assume.
Yeah, well, it got infected and, like, part of his body, like, turned green or something.
Oh, my God. My God.
I know. Okay. That's...
So this is basic self-care.
Yeah. So what else?
Well, like, he used to, like, eat...
Cold food all the time and just didn't notice.
But this was before I met him.
And then he made some friends that helped him out a lot.
And now he's more in tune along those dimensions.
Now he eats warm food.
What do you mean? Like a sub?
What do you mean cold food?
He would eat food that was supposed to be heated up, but he would just eat it cold.
And it never occurred to him to microwave it or anything.
Was he raised by wolves?
Where would he lack these basic skills?
I don't know. He grew up mostly with nannies.
Okay, so what do you know about his childhood?
He kind of joined an activist group, and I think they were kind of quirky.
So that might have had something to do with it as well.
What do you mean, activist, like environmental or political?
Yeah, kind of like that.
I don't want to get too specific, but yeah, something like that.
Okay. All right.
So, he was raised mostly by nannies, is that right?
I mean, why doesn't he have...
This is not a criticism of him, right?
But I mean, just... Yeah.
What's your theory as to why he doesn't have these basic life skills?
Um... Yeah, I actually, I don't know.
I mean, I think...
A year and a half you've been going out with this guy, and you don't know why he lacks basic life skills.
What have you been talking about?
He thinks that maybe something happened to him when he was, like, really young that was traumatic.
And then that caused, like, detachment from his body and stuff.
Well, yeah, I mean, we can call it detachment from the body, but it's just basic self-care.
I mean, if he was not cared for, then he would lack basic self-care, right?
Yeah, well, his parents are kind of, like, checked out a little bit.
This is, like, his words.
He just complains that they're, like, checked out boomers.
Well, have you met them? Yeah, I've met them.
So what do you think? Um, they're like very like normal in a way that I've like never met someone so like, like almost like bland normal.
Are they aware that their son risks sepsis by letting a wound get infected?
Yeah, well it was actually his parents who like took him to the hospital.
Oh, so his parents noticed that he hadn't taken care of a cut and they took him to the hospital.
Yeah, it was when he was in college and they visited him.
Okay, so that's like a five alarm fire, right?
For a parent. Yeah.
So what did they do?
Did they say, holy shit, something's really missing here.
This is very dangerous. I doubt it.
His parents don't.
They don't really seem like the type to do that.
Okay, so I really need you to denormalize this shit.
Mm-hmm. No, I don't think you're there yet.
Because you're just giving me a bland mm-hmm.
Because you said they're kind of normal, right?
Not normal.
Like normal, like you walk into their house and it feels like staged.
Like, a weird kind of normal.
Like, people trying to pretend to be normal.
No, no, what are you talking about? A weird kind of normal?
Like... Come on! They're almost like...
It's like if people...
Like, what do normal people do?
It's like they're, like, imitating normal.
Like space aliens, if they had to pretend to be human, right?
A little bit.
Alright, okay. Okay, so this is deeply disturbed, right?
Yeah. It's deeply disturbed.
I assume they have money, right?
Mm-hmm. Nannies usually means money, right?
Yeah. So they have money, and they would rather do whatever it is they did to make money than spend time with their son, right?
Which is why he was raised by the succession of nannies, right?
Yep. And the nannies don't seem to have cared for him much.
Does he keep in touch with any of them?
I don't think he's in touch.
One of them he says he really liked, and one of them apparently was, like, weird.
But she was only there for, like, a couple months or something.
And do you know why she left?
Yeah, I don't want to go into the details, but yeah, there was kind of like a weird incident, and they got suspicious of something weird.
But not suspicious of anything in particular, just stuff wasn't adding up of what she was telling them.
Okay, so she struck the weirdos as weird and they got rid of her, right?
Yep. Okay. Okay.
Now, they are not aware, as far as I understand it, of any of the fairly significant dysfunctions that their son has, right?
Yeah. I'm not exactly sure how they interact with it.
No, you are. Because they found him with an infected wound.
They had to basically drag him to the hospital.
I assume they know to some degree that he eats cold food, and I assume that there's a whole bunch of other...
Like, the basics, right?
Does he go to the dentist? Does he get his eyes checked?
Does he maintain a healthy weight?
Does he exercise... Like, basic self-care stuff, right?
Right? I mean, does he have...
Does he miss some of that other stuff as well?
Oh, no. He's, like, taking really good care of himself right now.
And he's actually, like, looking into a lot of, like, medical stuff and, like, getting checked up on everything.
So he's doing a pretty good job.
Okay. Right.
Okay. So the family's weird, right?
Well, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or just kind of making a noise there.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's a little weird.
Well, producing a son who doesn't even notice that he's got an infection, that's weird, right?
Yeah. Okay.
So, he's coming from a lot of isolation.
He's also coming from being raised by non-biological caregivers, right?
Non-biologically related caregivers, which puts him at a particular vulnerability, right?
Now, part of that vulnerability is just, we take care of, on a whole, there's lots of exceptions, of course, but we take care of our flesh and blood more than we take care of strangers, right?
That's number one. And number two is that his capacity to bond would be significantly interrupted by the fact that these nannies would be coming and going, right?
Right. Yeah.
And he has parents who don't care.
Who didn't notice or don't care or whatever, right?
Yeah. So why do you want to marry into this family?
That's the downside, right?
I don't really like his family. No, no, but when you get married, you marry into the family, right?
Yep. So, we've got a lot of downsides here, right?
So, you've got to tell me what the upsides are that keep you coming back.
And you've got to be honest.
You don't have to be. I'd really appreciate it if you'd be honest with me because there's something in this man that's drawing you back.
And, you know, there are sexual issues, there are self-care issues, there are emotional availability issues, there are body inhabitation issues and so on, right?
And a weird family, right?
And a history of non-bonding, which is going to be a problem.
Like, when you have your kids with this guy, how is he going to be as a dad if he never bonded with his own parents?
I think he would be a good dad.
Why do you think that? Um...
Because I think he cares a lot about not making a lot of the same mistakes that his parents did.
And he wants to be like really involved in like homeschool.
And he cares a lot about raising really good kids.
And what is he doing to try to ensure that he doesn't repeat those mistakes?
Because inevitably we will, right?
That's just the nature of...
And so if he wants to...
It's like me saying, hey, I really, really want to learn Japanese, right?
But at some point I have to actually start learning Japanese, right?
So if he wants to change the language of his family from his family of origin to his potential family with you...
Nothing's going to change unless he starts doing a hell of a lot of work.
And, you know, maybe he is doing that work or maybe he's in therapy or whatever he's doing.
But what is he doing to learn the new language that he wants to speak?
He does a lot of psychological stuff.
Like, he was kind of working for, like, a psychology group.
And... He was talking through a lot of his stuff with them and made a lot of progress on certain things.
He's starting therapy.
And then he's also been going to church and praying about stuff.
Has he talked to his family of origin, to his mother and father, about issues that he had with them while growing up?
Yeah, he kind of, like, keeps bringing up problems that he wasn't happy with and expecting them to understand that it hurt him and they don't, they're not understanding that it hurt him and they're not, like, apologizing.
Like, he's pretty upset about, like, the school that they sent him to and he wanted to be homeschooled and he has every year to be homeschooled and they said he had to go to school and he's like, he'll just, like, bring it up at dinner and, like, complain about how he had to go to school.
And wanting them to apologize or feel bad for it.
And you're there for these dinners, is that right?
And how do they react? They're just kind of quiet and they listen.
They don't really engage that much.
They're just like, oh yeah, sorry, you had a bad time.
And have you ever seen them become emotional about anything?
Um, no.
Do they have any other kids? Yeah, he has a brother.
His dad can kind of be like short-tempered and a bit rude sometimes.
So that's the most emotional I've seen them.
And how do you think they will be as grandparents to your children?
Not really that good.
Would you feel comfortable leaving your children in their care?
Yeah, for like a couple days.
I would feel okay about it.
But I wouldn't like have them as godparents or anything.
Alright. So, there's some negatives.
So, what's the positive that draws you back?
I don't know exactly.
Sure you do. No, no, no.
You don't know. I'm sorry. I mean, with all due respect, nobody gets the I don't remember, I don't recall.
I've got no memory of anything at all Peter Gabriel song on this show because you absolutely know.
You may not know consciously, but you know.
I think he's really interesting and ambitious and smart and...
I really enjoy doing a lot of kind of like personal development stuff with him and like having him encourage me to like be better and change things about myself.
Okay so why not have that person as a friend then?
What's the lover part or the potential husband part right?
Well, we're like really attracted to each other.
Okay. Okay, good.
So just talk about, sorry, talk about your attraction to him.
Yeah. Like it's funny, there was a, I don't know, some picture on the web the other day.
Blake Lively is married to this Canadian actor, Ryan something or other.
Ryan Reynolds, one of the Ryans, right?
Anyway, so he was bringing her a birthday cake and she took a picture of him bringing her a birthday cake and she zoomed in on his veined muscle on his arm.
Like, I guess that was something that really got her going, right?
And it was kind of cute and funny, I guess, right?
So, there is something about him, right, that's sexual and physically attractive to you.
It's not a bad thing. It was the basis of romance and all that.
But what is it that is compelling to you in that way?
Sorry, like, what about, like, his body?
Like, I think he's attractive.
Yeah. And now, is it face?
Is it body? Is it like, what is it as a whole?
Yeah, his face and his body too.
Mostly his face. Is he sort of like a classically handsome, strong jaw, high cheekbone kind of guy?
Yeah, a lot of people think he's attractive.
Okay, so you guys, I assume you're attractive yourself as well, is that right?
Yeah. And how would you rate yourself and him on that sort of 1 to 10 scale?
I don't know. I mean, we're both 90th percentile, at least.
Okay, okay. Is he the most attractive man you've dated?
No. And if for some reason or another, and it will happen, of course, that he were to lose his looks or his looks were to diminish or he were to gain weight or something like that, Would the attraction sustain itself as a whole?
Yeah I think so.
That seemed pretty quick.
I don't know. I can't imagine, like, if something happened to him and, like, his face got melted off or something.
I can't imagine, like, not, like, loving him anymore.
No, I didn't go that far.
I didn't, like, he's not roaming around London or something and subject to immigrant acid attacks.
I'm just, like, he's going to age, right?
He's going to lose some hair.
He's going to, you know, his face is going to sag, you know.
It's just going to happen, right?
Especially in the dad bod is a real phenomenon.
The struggle is real. And he's just, you know, like yourself, and he's going to become less attractive over time, right?
Yeah, that's fine.
And so, that's fine?
Yeah. I don't believe you.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm just being honest. What I've experienced in terms of attraction to guys is my physical attraction to them is very strongly influenced by what I perceive as their virtues.
So if I think a guy is a good person and then he does something that I think is mean, I'll all of a sudden not think he's cute anymore.
And the opposite has also happened.
And give me his top five virtues.
He is a really deep thinker in terms of what is happening in the world and how we can position ourselves in the world to make it better.
Oh, this is part of his activism, right?
Well, no, actually, the activism stuff was kind of actually more lefty, and he's changed a lot since then.
Oh, so he's not part of the same group anymore, is that right?
And he doesn't believe in activism anymore.
No, he's not. He doesn't think activism is a good way to change the world.
Okay, okay. And his...
Career prospects? What's he studying or what's he going to be?
He's trying to figure that out right now.
He was working on a project for about a year that kind of is falling through.
I'm sorry, could you say that again?
Yeah, he was working on a project for about a year that kind of looks like it's not going to work out anymore.
So now he's trying to figure out what his next move is.
Right. And he's mid-20s?
Yeah. And what was he educated in, if anything?
Math. Math, okay.
He's really, really good at math.
Right. Right.
Often comes with a certain amount of body coldness in my experience, but that's probably neither here nor there.
Definitely a stereotype.
Yeah. And...
So he hasn't had an income for about a year, is that right?
Yeah. Or much? Yeah, not a lot.
So what's he been living on?
Savings. And where did he get his savings from?
I mean, that's pretty cool to have a year's living expenses, mostly for a young man.
Yeah. Yeah, well, he had been working for a couple years before then, after college.
But he doesn't want to keep doing that?
Well, no, not.
The company that he was working for kind of like disbanded.
Okay. What is it that triggers the breakups?
Well, a lot of times it's probably just because I'm PMSing.
I never really used to PMS until this year.
More than a couple times a month, but especially once a month, I'll be like, oh my gosh, I'm not pregnant yet.
I need to figure out who I'm going to marry.
And if this isn't working out, I just need to give up and find someone else.
Okay. So the breakups are fertility panic, which, you know, again, I can understand and appreciate and so on.
Yeah. And if you have your wish list, say three things, three things that you could get him to change, like, you know, to snap your fingers kind of thing, what would they be?
I want him to be really, like, in touch with God and, like, Have God as a priority in his life.
I want him to get back in touch with his body and kind of be integrated in that way.
I want him to figure out a good career.
I think that would be really good for him and help him be confident and happy and feel like he was doing something good.
Okay, so you said he's going to church and praying, but you want more of that stuff, is that right?
I want some kind of assuredness that he's going to continue down that path.
Did he go through an atheist or agnostic period?
Yeah, his parents, they're like fake Christians, sort of.
They took him to church when he was young, and Pretty young, he decided that he didn't like it and left the church, and then his family kind of left with him, and then is kind of just being, like, reacquainted with the church through me.
So he's, you know, close to a quarter-century atheist, right?
Mm-hmm. You've got this kind of mm-hmm that I'm not sure, because I can't see your face, so I don't know what the hell's going on on the other side of the line here.
You're an atheist or agnostic or whatever.
Is he doing the church thing to please you, or is there something else?
No, it seems sincere to me.
I think it's real.
Okay.
And how would you know if he was more in touch with his body?
Like, I want, like, if I, like, stroke his arm or something, I want him to respond positively to it.
What does he do now? Bite you?
No, he can't even really feel it that much.
He just feels neutral about it.
Ah, so he's not exactly a lap cat, so to speak, right?
Well, it's weird.
I don't know. We're really cuddly.
Like we're often like sitting really close to each other or touching each other.
But he's just not that like physically sensitive in that way.
Okay. And as far as the career thing goes, what's happening on that front that could be resolved relatively quickly?
I think it might take him a bit.
He's looking into a lot of different options.
That's a very non-answer answer, if that makes sense.
I don't think it's going to be super quick.
It's like, okay, he's looking at five different career options and kind of investigating all of them, and that kind of takes some time.
Does he have a time frame for when he's going to make a decision?
No, he's just trying to do stuff as quickly as possible, basically.
All right. So, you're hoping the religion will take...
You would like him to fundamentally change his relationship with his parasympathetic nervous system, and you want him to get his career sorted out, right?
Mm-hmm. That's a lot to change.
That's a lot to change about someone.
And look, it's a big question.
It's a big question. And there's no, I mean, at the extremes, there are certainly clear answers, right?
But how much do we want people to change?
And how much do we accept them for who they are?
It's a big question in relationships, right?
Nobody ever comes perfectly prefabricated for us.
But at the same time, there are certainly extremes of differences that you can't change, really, or shouldn't expect someone to change, right?
But these are all things he wants to change about himself.
And he's also changed himself a lot already.
I mean, I haven't known him that long, but friends who have known him longer tell me that he used to be a completely different person.
Okay, so if he's in the process of changing, and you trust that he's going to continue to change, and he's changing in the right direction, isn't he going to meet your expectations at some point pretty soon?
But it might take too long.
Well, how long is it too long? Like, what if he gets...
I don't know.
It depends how hormonal I am.
No, no. See, technically time doesn't work that way.
Like, the actual physical, like, your clock doesn't speed up when your hormones surf over, right?
Like, it doesn't become, like, fast forward on a videotape or something, right?
So... Yeah, I mean...
Like, right now when we're talking, I don't know where your hormones are, but right now when we're talking, how long does he have?
I'm basically just feeling, like, really impatient.
Yeah, that's still not an answer.
How long does he have?
I'll come right over there. I'll pull this out of you with a fork if I have to.
But how long does he have?
Six months? Three months?
A year? I don't know.
Yesterday, I was just feeling like I had one more day.
I was just like, okay, if things don't change by the end of the day, somehow magically, then I just can't do this anymore.
Okay. Okay.
So... Do you not trust that he will continue to change?
Is that the big issue?
Like he's gonna hit some point where he's just gonna plateau or stop?
I think he will continue to change but like I don't know that he's gonna continue to change along like all the things that we discussed.
What does he want you to change?
Or does he have a list at all?
Other than maybe you being a bit more accepting, but what does he want you to change?
Yeah, the main thing I think is kind of the topic that I wrote in about, about like being kind of like soft and gentle and like sympathetic and understanding and empathetic.
Yeah, because you're conditional, right?
You're with him. But there's a lot of asterisks, right?
There's a lot of fine print at the bottom.
I am your girlfriend! Assuming the following 12 conditions are met within a specified time frame that depends on my hormones, right?
Yes. Yeah.
So you're not committed to him?
No. It's been a year and a half and you're not committed.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, by the time my wife and I, you know, it's different for everyone, but just as a benchmark to some degree, by the time my wife and I had known each other for 18 months, we'd be married for nine months.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Because if you're still kind of like make up breakup stuff after 18 months, he's clearly not changing fast enough for you to commit, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So you feel you can do better.
And I've never seen a relationship work where one or both partners feels they can do better.
I don't know if I can do better.
I don't know if I can do better. I'm sorry?
I don't know if I could do better.
No. There's doubt, right?
So within a month or two of meeting my wife, I'm like, okay, I can't do better than this, right?
Like, there's no way. I can't do better than this.
And she felt the same way.
And, you know, 20 years later, here we are, right?
Never a doubt, never a temptation, never a wandering, never a straying, never a threat, never, you know, we don't yell at each other.
We don't call each other names. We've never raised our voices.
Like, we just, we work things out.
Once or twice a year, we'll have a little conflict or whatever, but let's just exercise.
You feel that you could get somebody more compatible with you.
I don't know. Because if you didn't feel that, if this was like, okay, this is as close to perfection as I'm going to get.
I can't upgrade from here.
Because you want to change this guy in pretty fundamental ways, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, that doesn't work.
I mean, come on. You know he feels rejected by you all the time, right?
I know, and it's really, really bad for him.
Yeah, it's kind of cruel, right?
Because you're withholding, like you're training a doc, right?
Like, I'll give you commitment.
I'll give you 5% more commitment if you obey me in this way or do this or do that or whatever, right?
You're kind of dangling treats in front of him, which is your affection or your commitment or whatever, right?
And then when you don't get what you want, you kind of slam the door in his face and you storm off and then you kind of come back and it's not healthy.
Yeah. Yeah. Now, maybe the problem is him, or maybe the problem is you don't know how to accept people too well.
Like, what if he was just enough for you?
What if you didn't have this cold, critical, sore on eye of discontent that you could just flay him, flay his skin from his bones, so to speak, if he displeased you?
What if that wasn't really an option?
What if you could just commit to the guy and say, you're perfect?
Because look, you're not perfect.
I'm not perfect. You're not perfect.
I'm not perfect. And so if you had as your goal not changing him but changing yourself, because you want him to change, but it would certainly be a lot easier for you if you were to change your expectations, right? Yeah.
But you don't want to change yourself, but you want him to change.
Yeah, I mean, I basically decided there are like certain things that I'm like not willing to change in terms of my expectations.
Okay, so you won't change, but why the hell should he change if you're not going to?
Or why would you expect it to be easier to change him than to change yourself?
Because I think that the things I want are more healthy than the way he's acting.
Like, he and I both think that the way he wants to change...
Change is a more healthy direction.
No, I get all of that.
Listen, I completely understand what you're saying, and I'm going to go with you completely 100% on this.
Yes, you're totally right.
It would be way better for him to do what you want, right?
Yeah. But if you are going to tell him that who you are is more healthy, but all you do is kind of reject him, it doesn't look too healthy.
You see the paradox? A little bit.
So you are a very healthy person and he needs to rise up to your level of health, right?
Yeah. But you're breaking up with him and you're hormonal and then you pull him back in and you demand change and you won't commit.
That's not healthy, right? So how do you get to be the poster child of mental and emotional health if you keep breaking up with this guy and you keep withholding from him and you won't commit?
That's not healthy, is it?
No, it's not really healthy.
It's not, right?
And it's wasting your time and it's harming his self-esteem, right?
Because if he changes, if he changes based upon, this is probably what you're suspicious of deep down, and it might be wise to be that way, but if he's changing in order to gain your approval, it will not last.
And you can't hold yourself forward or up in a relationship as the superior one and have it last.
You know, people want to be equal.
They want to be equal. They want to be accepted.
You want to be accepted for who you are.
He wants to be accepted for who he is.
Does that mean nobody ever changes?
Yeah, you know, people will change.
People will change a little bit over time, but not a huge amount.
You see the old joke I have in my book, Real Time Relationships, that women in particular, though not only women, but women as a whole, will often say, man, I need a mode of transportation.
And they go out and they shop for different cars and they test drive a whole bunch of different cars.
They look up research for a whole bunch of different cars.
They ask their friends for advice about a bunch of different cars.
They finally pick a car after months of looking.
They bring the car home and then they take out their chainsaw and say, great, now I can make a boat. And that's a little bit where you are, right?
I want a guy who's like this, this, and this.
Well, this guy I'm attracted to, he's not this, this, and this, but I can kind of torture and bribe and withhold him into becoming what I want.
Well, I'm trying to do it in more of like a supportive, encouraging way.
No! The problem is that you feel superior to him!
Yeah, I do. Of course you do.
Because you're healthy and he needs to be fixed, right?
And that's not healthy.
No. That automatically makes you not more healthy than him.
Okay. Because if you, listen, if you're a healer, then go become a therapist or become a life coach or have a professional relationship with men like him, right?
But if you want to have a relationship Where you're married, you're parents, you have to be equal.
If you are bringing a sense of superiority to the relationship, I don't see how it can last.
I mean, he'll conform for a while, but eventually he'll be just like, who the hell are you to lord it over me and be so perfect all the time?
Like, what are you slumming it with me?
If I'm so bad and you're so great, why the hell are you here?
If I'm so messed up and you're so healthy, if I'm so dysfunctional and you're so healthy, what are you doing here?
That's basically what he's telling me.
Right. And if you remember back early on, I said that there was a vanity component often to being in start-stop relationships, make-up-break-up relationships.
The vanity component is when you're with him, you get to feel superior.
And he dances to your everyday.
You're every carrot and stick.
You get to feel like you're in control.
You get to feel superior.
I don't know, but I don't think I want that.
I don't know what you're talking about.
I think I would much rather be with someone who I thought was better than me.
Well, no, no. What do you mean better?
Why do they have to be better than you?
You got only one or the other?
You're either superior or inferior?
You can't possibly have equality?
Equality is okay, too.
I guess, well, I'm also kind of coming from, like, the Christian perspective of, like, the guy should be, like, the leader.
Okay, but that's, and that's, I've no beef with that.
And there are certain areas, I mean, to me, the division of labor is important.
There's some things that the man should be more expertise, have more expertise and authority.
And there's some things that the woman should have more expertise and authority just works well.
We like to call puzzles, like we fit together well, as males and females.
So yeah, so you want him to be a leader in some areas, but you also look down at him as, you know, a little broken, a little dysfunctional, a little not up to scratch, right?
Yeah. Yeah, so you want him to meet your expectations.
You want him to rise to your level, to rise to your standard.
You want him to please you.
And I guarantee you this, my friend.
The reason he's with you is because he is so bloody used to trying to please his parents and failing, that trying to please you and failing is a sick repetition for him.
I want to be homeschooled, he says.
No! You're going away to school.
I want more time with my parents.
No! You get a nanny.
I want to be loved.
I want to be accepted. I want to have your commitment as parents.
No! We won't do it.
We withhold. We punish.
You're not good enough to keep our attention.
You're not good enough for us to spend time with you.
You're not interesting enough for us to commit to.
Oh, child of ours, right?
And next thing you know, he's got a girlfriend who's kind of doing the same thing.
And he's just going to spend the rest of his life chasing after this train that he can never catch up to.
And he talks to his parents, as you said, but these dinners about school, his school and all.
And he has complaints.
And his parents don't really listen to him.
Now he has complaints about you, right?
Mm-hmm. The complaints that I sort of voiced, right?
Like, why are you slumming it with me if you're so superior, right?
Yeah. And does that change your mind?
Does that really alter your perspective?
Or does it just like, well, you know, fix yourself and we'll be fine?
Putting the onus upon him 100% for the problems in the relationship.
The problems in the relationship come because you're not in touch with your body, because you don't have your career sorted out and other things And if you just fix those, we'll be fine.
It's all your fault. Now, what kind of man would put up with that?
That's sort of my question. Like, I'm sort of flipping over to his side and say, okay, well, okay, you're very pretty, right?
So obviously that's a plus, and he's very handsome, so that's a plus.
You look good together, and people probably envy you, and I get that that's tempting, and I, you know, it's no basis for a relationship, right?
As you know, as a Christian, you've got to build your...
Your house on rock, not on sand, right?
And vanity and looking good is not enough to sustain a relationship, not by a long shot.
It's a great way to waste half a decade, but it's a very bad foundation for a family as a whole.
But I sit there and say, okay, well, what kind of man would want a cold-eyed critical girlfriend that he constantly feels he's failing?
Well, a guy with cold-eyed critical parents that he constantly felt he was failing.
You're mining his wound, right?
Right? You're exploiting, and I'm not in a mean way.
I mean, you didn't know, right? But you're exploiting his isolation and his loneliness and his feeling of rejection that his parents inflicted upon him.
And you're exploiting that to feel better about yourself, to feel like you're stronger, you're better, you're healthier.
Right? But that's kind of vampiric.
It's a little parasitical, right?
That you're feeding off his insecurities to make yourself feel stronger and better.
The second part isn't really resonating me.
I don't feel like it makes me feel better by seeing him not succeed.
But you're there. Because people say, well, this is not what I want.
It's like, wait. If I buy a ticket and I go to Paris and I get to Paris and say, well, this isn't where I want to be, what are you going to tell me?
You bought the ticket to Paris, didn't you?
You got on the plane. You've been in this relationship for a year and a half, and you're getting what it calls secondary gains.
So you get to be critical, you get to be superior, and you get to have power over him because he's constantly trying to dance to meet your standards.
But I don't like that.
Like, it's not fun for me. No, you do like it.
No, you absolutely like it.
Otherwise, you wouldn't be doing it. I'm not saying that.
It doesn't feel like I like it.
No, no, I get that. But you, sorry, I shouldn't say you like it.
That's imprecise.
You prefer it to the alternative.
You're used to it.
You're familiar to it.
You're familiar with it, right? Yeah.
Let's look at your parental...
Sorry to interrupt. Let's look at your parental dynamics.
Do you have a parent?
I mean, look at...
You said this to yourself, right?
And I don't mean it's like, aha, he caught you, right?
But you said this to yourself about your mom.
That your mom, your dad was just not good enough for her for years.
Right? And you say they got a fairly good marriage out of that.
Except that... You are now in this limbo, right?
See, I can use that word because you're Christian.
You won't say, what? I don't dance that way.
Right? So... And your parents should be able to identify the problem with your relationship and help you with it, right?
But they can't because that dynamic, I bet...
Listen, you can't be pursuing someone for four years and end up with equality.
So my guess is that your mother's disapproval still rings pretty hard in the household as a whole.
She doesn't seem...
I don't know. She's not disapproving.
Good. Well, I will abandon that thesis because, you know, I'm an empiricist, so if that's not what's happening, I will certainly accept that.
No, I think she's really supportive.
Why do your parents think that this relationship hasn't worked out yet?
I don't know. I don't talk to them about details or anything.
Why? But why not?
I mean, they care. They want you to be happy, right?
Yeah, I guess the thought of like opening up to them that much feels like really scary.
Oh. It feels like emotionally vulnerable and I don't like it.
Right. So, if I understand this correctly, my dear, he said annoyingly, if I understand this correctly, you want your boyfriend to be emotionally available and open.
But you can't even talk to your parents about what's going on in your life.
Yeah. A little hypocritical?
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
You gave me just... It wasn't quite an mm-hmm, but it was very close to it.
It was very close to it. A little, right?
You want him to be more emotionally available.
You want him to be in touch with his body and connected with you and so on.
But you won't even talk to your parents about your central agony in your life at the moment, right?
Yeah. So, frankly, who are you to talk about emotional availability?
Plus, you can't judge someone and love them at the same time.
I mean, you can't judge them as wanting, as deficient, as broken, as lesser, as whatever.
Love is admiration, right?
And you can't judge someone as deficient and love them at the same time.
Yeah. And so I would say, physician, heal thyself.
Because you're not in your body when you're judging someone.
You're cold-eyed and critical.
You're sitting like a gargoyle on top of a building, like the Catwoman style or something.
You're sitting like a gargoyle on a building, cold-eyed and criticizing someone or critical of them.
That's not being in your body and emotionally available and open and any of that, right?
Hmm.
Hmm.
That's a sound I can't possibly parse.
Just so you know, I don't know what...
I'm thinking through.
You might as well just be riding on the surface of a lake.
I don't know what's going on with that.
I'm pondering.
You're not emotionally available to him when you're judging him as deficient, right?
Yeah. And that's a pretty important part.
You've got these three big things, right?
That he's deficient in.
And so, you know...
Maybe you guys have more in common than you think, and maybe you have things to learn from him as well.
Like, I know you say he's teaching you and blah, blah, blah.
I mean, I get, you know, we haven't really delved into that too much.
But this goes back to the virtue that I was talking about, which you as a Christian should really appreciate, the virtue I was talking about with the first caller, the virtue of humility, right?
Maybe you're not so perfect, and he's not so deficient.
Maybe you guys have things to teach each other.
And maybe you should let go of the control of expecting change, which is a way of just staying distant from him.
And come on, you know this from his childhood.
He grew up with a series of nannies that came and went.
The guy has basically experienced the deaths of probably half a dozen, quote, mothers, right?
Because when a caregiver vanishes from a little kid's life, it's dead.
It's dead, right? It's death.
It's like his mom's all got machine gunned down just over the hill, so to speak, right?
And so he probably doesn't need...
Somebody else rejecting him, somebody else not committing to him.
It's probably not good for him in that way, right?
So I would say, you know, find a way to commit or let him be free to someone who will because I think this is too much of a repetition of his early life and yours in some way that I don't know.
Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, that's basically what I'm trying to do is like choose one way or the other.
And I basically like can't stick to one thing for more than like a couple days.
What's best for him? Because if you're just focusing on your own needs, you won't ever find any security or ballast, so to speak, right?
What is best for him?
Clearly it's not a continuation of what's going on right now, right?
Yep. So is it best for you to fully commit to him and to put aside your criticisms and to accept him for who he is and recognize that you are flawed as he is flawed, as I'm flawed?
Is it best for him that you do that or is it best for him, if you can't do that or won't do that, that he is free to find somebody who can accept him for who he is?
It would be best for him if I could do that, but I don't know if I can.
Well, if you don't know if you can love him after a year and a half, I think that's your answer.
It's not like you need more information, right?
Yeah, but I just, like, I can't accept either answer for myself.
I'm not sure what you mean by can't accept.
Like, I can't accept, like, if it's like we shouldn't be together, I just can't, I can't seem to accept that.
And if it's like, oh, we should just be together and like commit to each other, I can't do that either.
Okay, so let's work with the first one.
If you think about not being with him, what can't you accept?
About that.
Like you screwed up, like you could have done it, but you were too selfish or immature or lazy or vain or like you could have been with him, but you have to give up the control yourself.
You refuse to give up the control, the dominance, the superiority.
You refuse to give that up.
And so you walked away from something which could have been great because of, you know, immaturity or bad reasons.
Is it something like that or something else?
I don't know. It feels like...
It feels like maybe he can, like, change me in some way that I really need to be changed.
He can change you? Yeah, it kind of feels that way.
Yeah, he can't. Come on.
You're a quarter century. You know that.
There's no big magic switch inside you that he can reach in and flip, right?
Change is you, right?
If you can't figure out how to commit to him, asking him to figure it out for you is very unfair.
I can't lose weight.
Maybe you could lose weight for me.
No, no, no. That's not how it works, right?
Well, like for our first year of dating, I wanted to be more committed and he kind of was less serious about it.
And then like over time, we kind of have arrived at where we are now.
Yeah, see, I'm talking about you having control and you've now shifted the focus to him and what he did.
You see what you're doing there? Kind of.
Yeah, you're trying to distract me with him now.
Well, what do you mean you're focusing on me making a decision?
Let me tell you what he did for a year, right?
No, sorry. I can't.
No, no, that's not going to work with me.
That's not going to work with me.
Can you ask the question again?
My mind is like blocking it.
No, it's fine. It's fine. Can you...
Well, if you can't change yourself, you can't change him.
Now, if you change yourself, it will have an effect on him.
Mm-hmm. It's the old thing that if somebody walks up to you and sticks out their hand and they're going to shake your hand, you stand there with your hands by your side, he's going to change his behavior because you're not doing something, right?
He's not just going to stand there with his hand outstretched, right?
So he'll put his hand down or, you know, you see these funny videos, the guy's trying to get a high five and everyone's ignoring him and it's just kind of sad, right?
I mean, he's got to put his hand down at some point.
He's not going to be there three years from now waiting for a high five.
So if you change your behavior, it will change what he does.
But if you focus on changing him, it won't work.
So this is like maximum self-ownership.
That really is an important concept I've been working on for the last little while.
I won't get into a whole thing on it because I'll do that another time.
Maximum self-ownership.
What if you are entirely responsible for the quality of this relationship?
It has nothing to do with him.
Nothing to do with him.
Maximum self-ownership.
The quality of the relationship is entirely dependent upon what you do.
Now, I get that that's not entirely true, but just to take that as a counterweight, To this kind of drifting along like a leaf on the sea of hormones that's been going on over the last little while, right?
What if you say, okay, if I want this relationship to work, it's 100% up to me.
And I've got to apologize for trying to change him.
And for saying, for a year and a half, you're not good enough for me.
You're not good enough for me.
You're not good enough for me. Because that's really destructive to someone.
Really destructive, especially if he's got a childhood history, which is probably the only reason he'd be involved in that dynamic to begin with, right?
You say, you know what?
I am responsible for the quality of this relationship to yourself.
You go to your partner, you go to your boyfriend, you can say...
I'm going to work on you being perfectly enough for me.
Nothing needs to be fixed.
Nothing needs to change. Because people can't be bullied into change.
Sometimes they can relax into change if they feel secure.
Sometimes they can be inspired into change, but they can't be bullied into change.
And you cannot have a loving, healthy relationship where you're doling out approval like little cat treats or training a puppy or something like that, right?
If you can't find a way to approve of this guy for who he is, you just reckon him slowly.
Yes, you're back on.
All right, sorry about that. So what I was saying was that your fundamental issue is not trusting him, it's trusting yourself.
In other words... You doubt your own judgment with regards to whether this is a sustainable relationship.
As you say, you're torn between the two situations, right?
Stay or go, stay or go, stay or go.
So it's not a trust of him that you need to establish.
It's a trust in yourself.
And you are hoping that if he changes his behavior, that is somehow going to make you certain one way or another.
So you are putting your free will on him.
You're putting your choice on him.
If you change, you say to your boyfriend, then I will gain certainty and closure about this relationship.
But that is abandoning your own will, your own choice, the sovereignty of your own conscience and consciousness.
Yeah, I think you're really on to something right now.
And so... He will not respect you because, you know, you're like, oh, he's not good enough for me, he's not good enough for me.
But if you say, I can't decide whether you're a good guy or not, and so you need to change your behavior to make me certain, you're basically saying, I can't trust my own judgment.
Yep.
That's an unfair burden to put on him, I think.
Yeah. And you won't gain certainty that way, I guarantee you.
And this is why this will be going on for a year and a half, off and on.
Because if he does change his behavior to give you certainty, it will only give you more doubt.
Do you know why? Oh, okay.
Hey, did I drop for a second?
You cut out for a second. Can you play that again?
So, if...
If he changes his behavior with the goal of giving you more certainty, it will only give you more doubt.
Do you know why? Why?
Because why is he doing it?
Will it last? Is it real?
Is it genuine? Or is he just trying to please you?
If you ask someone else to give you certainty...
And you withhold affection or give affection based upon whether they change their behavior to give you certainty, you will never get that certainty.
because you don't know and can't know if it's a genuine change or a change as a result of the pressure you're putting on them.
And the funny thing is, and it really is tragicomic in a way, right?
So the funny thing is that earlier you were saying he wants me to be someone different to have sex with me, right?
But you want him to be someone different too.
Yeah. Yep.
Probably doesn't come with the blue wig or whatever is going on, but it's the same process, right?
You sit there and say, well, I want him to be attracted to me, just me, not some fetish thing.
And he, of course, is saying exactly the same thing.
I want her to be attracted to me, just me, because I've had enough of this conditional rejection from my parents.
Yep.
That's happening.
It is not his job to change for you.
It is not your job to change for him.
That will never bring certainty and peace and love.
You can get someone to obey you by threatening to withhold affection, but all it does is build up resentment.
I mean, you know that deep down, right?
Yeah. You can get a child to comply with you by spanking that child.
But it just builds up resentment and non-compliance, right?
You'll get immediate compliance but then it just undoes, right?
And you'll get commitments to change and there'll be little bits of change here and there and then it just won't last.
And that's where you're stuck, I think.
So stop applying pressure.
Stop punishing and rewarding to control another human being.
That will not bring you what you want.
So, I mean, if I were in your shoes, I don't know whether you should be with this guy or not.
Obviously, I don't know, right? But I would certainly give it a chance.
Because you do have a lot in common.
I would certainly give it the chance to say, listen, I'm sorry.
I've been withholding affection.
I've been judging you.
I've been judging you. It's been found wanting.
You know, that's a bad thing.
That's a wrong thing to do. That is unchristian of me.
Right? Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Well, sadly, that may be actually occurring, right?
But I'm sorry.
Like, no matter whether you stay together or not, you don't want to leave them with this feeling of not being good enough.
Right? Yeah, yeah.
That's really destructive to him.
So if you try, what if you are good enough?
What if you don't need to change?
What happens then?
What happens if you accept him?
You know, maybe he'll change because of that.
Or maybe that's the first time he's experienced that.
Maybe he'll run screaming because he's not used to it.
I don't know, right? But it's a good thing to do.
Sit down with him and say, look, I'm sorry.
I've been withholding.
I've been critical.
I've been judging.
And I've given you the impression, which is perfectly reasonable based upon my actions, that you're just not enough.
You're not good enough. You're not integrated enough.
You're not on the Hoffman four planes of interdimensional perfection.
Yeah. And that's not fair.
It's not fair for me to get into a relationship and then say, you're not good enough.
You're not good enough. You're not good enough.
Yeah. It's destructive.
Yeah. How do I make it better though?
Like how do I change that in myself?
Well, you apologize and you don't do it.
Now, as far as not doing it, like, you'll still have the impulse to judge.
And you can read my book, Real-Time Relationships.
It's free at freedomain.com forward slash books.
And when you have the impulse to judge, you say, you know what?
I really have an impulse to judge you right now.
That's not fair, but I'm just telling you I have that impulse.
And then, you know, maybe he'll be curious and you could be curious about where that impulse to judge rather than connect comes from.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. But, you know, it's like, how do you stop smoking?
You don't pick up a cigarette.
You know, like, how do you stop judging?
Well, you have to be honest about what's occurring.
And you guys could figure out a very powerful dynamic that's going on deep down here.
And maybe you can heal that dynamic, and maybe you can't.
But the most important thing is you figure out what that dynamic is.
Because if you can heal it in your relationship, fantastic.
If he's not always chasing after your approval and you're cold-eyed judging and disapproving, if you can heal that in your relationship, fantastic.
If you can't, then at least you won't repeat it in your next relationship.
Because if you don't know this dynamic, you can break up with this guy.
Maybe this is your hesitation about breaking up.
If you don't know this dynamic, you're going to break up with this guy.
And what's going to happen with your next relationship?
The same damn thing. And then you'll say, oh my God!
Oh my god! Everywhere I go, it's me!
And you may waste more time until you get this dynamic, right?
Yep. Yep.
So you may be hesitating to leave because it's a big lesson to be learned.
But sorry, go ahead. Yes, yes.
Yeah, I think that's kind of happening.
Like, I feel like I can't leave because I'm not, like, fixed yet.
Right, right, right.
Yeah, so that would be...
And I feel like he can help me with this problem better than other people can.
No, no, no, no, no. Stop it.
Stop it. Stop it. Don't make me come over there.
What? It's not his job to fix you with your problem.
I'm not saying it's his job, but I think he has skills that can help.
You just told me it was his job.
You said, hang on, you said, he's the one who can help me with this problem.
Yeah, I think he's the person most capable of doing that.
No, you are the person most capable of doing that.
It's not his job to fix you.
No, but it's been a problem my whole life and I haven't been able to, like on my own.
So I think I need someone else to help me.
And I think he's like, maybe do it.
No, no, no. I bet you your whole life you've been trying to get other people to fix it for you and it doesn't work.
It's like saying you're both smokers and you say, well, I need to quit smoking, so you quit smoking.
Apologize for judging.
Apologize for withholding affection as a form of boyfriend control.
Mm-hmm. And just see what happens.
You don't know what's on the other side of that realization and that apology.
You don't know what's there.
But you're trying to plan it out, like a head, right?
Yeah. But you can't.
Because all of your planning is based upon your empirical experience of everything that's gone wrong before.
So all of your planning will not work.
None of your planning will work. And this is around...
You're trying to control the outcome of this by planning it, and the whole point of this is you've got to let go of control in relationships.
Yeah. I do not want my wife to be different from who she is.
I do not want my daughter to be different from who she is.
I do not want James to be different from who he is.
I do not want you to be different from who you are.
And if you can let go of that control, because control arises Out of insecurity, if I'm not in control, bad things are going to happen.
In other words, if I'm not dominating other people, disaster will occur.
But dominating and controlling other people is the disaster.
And it's already occurring.
I feel like the parts of him that I'm rejecting, they don't seem like authentically part of him.
Does that make sense? Like it feels like the stuff that I don't like about him feels like foreign.
Does that make sense? So you're trying to distract me with him again?
You're trying to get me to focus on him again?
You are good, man.
You are very good. You are very good.
I'm not doing it on purpose.
And this is what happens when women can't show their cleavage.
They will just distract me with their boyfriends, right?
No, but this is...
You're trying to get me to focus on him again, right?
I don't know. You're judging him.
I forgot what you were talking about.
No, I get it. I get it.
So now you want to focus on him.
Oh, honey, this part of you is authentic and this part of you is inauthentic and blah-de-blah-de-blah, right?
Who the hell are you to slice and dice this guy up?
Is everything about you authentic?
I'm trying to get you to talk about you and you keep talking about your boyfriend.
I keep getting you to let go of judgment and you keep trying to drag me into judging your boyfriend.
Is that authentic?
I don't even know what that means.
It's manipulative. I don't think it doesn't mean you're bad or wrong.
It's just what's happening, right?
Okay, yeah. You don't want to focus on you.
And so you're focusing on him.
Okay. Because you think if I can turn my laser vision to him, you're off the hook and you won't need to change.
And you and I can sit here and figure out how to change him, right?
No, I really want to change.
Good. Good.
Then stop thinking about him.
Okay. Stop thinking about him.
You can wake up tomorrow and say, He's fine.
He doesn't need to change.
Because if he needs to change, then you need to control him.
And then you can't be close to him and it won't work.
If he needs to change, you cannot love him.
Yeah. So say, what if I try on that there's nothing wrong with him?
What if I try on that he's perfect the way he is?
As God made him, I might add.
Yeah. Now, maybe that'll work, maybe that won't, but you need to experience what it's like to accept someone for who he is without saying, ah, yes, but his left index finger is less authentic than his right index finger, and I'm going to judge that as negative and bad and wrong and to be fixed.
And it's like, okay, you know, I don't think that drafting him into your boot camp of self-improvement is the way to be loving with this guy.
Yeah. Yeah, well, I tried to do that for, like, a month.
I just, like, at the beginning of September, I was basically like, okay, I'm just going to, like, pretend like we're already married and I, like, have to accept him.
And I just need to be, like, committed, at least for a month.
And I, like, couldn't really do it.
Like, I had a horrible time for most of the month.
But were you honest about it with him and saying, this is what I'm trying to do?
Yeah. Uh, I didn't really articulate it as such.
I said, I'm going to try to be nicer to you.
Oh my god. So you had this whole plan to try and accept him that you didn't share with him, and then you complained that he's inauthentic.
Yeah. So you were manipulating him the entire month of September, but he's somehow inauthentic.
Yeah. Yeah, no, that's no good.
Just be honest with the guy.
I mean, he's lost in some weird Mobius strip hall of mirrors maze of your, what the hell's going on?
Oh, she's changed. Oh, she's going to be nicer.
What does that even mean? To say, you know, I got to accept you for who you are.
And every day you're going to struggle with it.
And every day you could say, man, this is crazy.
I'm really struggling with this. It's nuts.
It's not you. It's me.
And also sit down and talk with you, sit down and talk with you.
Sorry? Like, if I can't accept him for who he is, is that necessarily a problem that I have?
Yes. It's all you.
It's all your problem.
Because if you can't accept him for who he is, but you didn't, then you were withholding that for 18 months.
If you cannot accept him for who he is, but you stay there, it's your problem.
Because you're staying. Yep.
Okay. Accept him for who he is.
That means if he's good enough for you, great.
If he's not good enough for you, leave.
But don't just hang around trying to change things with willpower and boobs or whatever.
I don't know how women do it, but something like that, right?
That's not fair. This kibble's worth of carrots and sticks and pluses and minuses and affection and withholding, that's no good.
That's exhausting.
And you are. You're worn out, right?
Yep. Yeah.
And this is how you are.
When you're young and healthy, this is how you are before you have kids.
This is how you are before the mother-in-law develops dementia or whatever happens in life that happens as you age.
This is who you are when you are at your maximum freedom and energy.
This is how exhausted you are.
Trust me, man.
If you can't sort this shit out now, adding middle-aged kids, aging parents, teeth problems, health issues, all that to the mix, man, this is going to break you like a twig.
The issue is yours entirely. .
Yours entirely. It's the most powerful thing that you can do in the world.
100% responsibility.
You say, oh yes, but what about him?
You're there. So he is only there as 100% result of your choice.
So none of it has to do with him.
Yeah. But he's got this inauthentic part.
It's like, yeah, well, but you're there.
The inauthentic part is only an issue 100% because you've chosen to be there.
So it's still all you. And that's maximum self-ownership.
It's a very powerful thing.
Yeah. Yeah, that sounds right.
There's definitely like a thing there of like I don't want to make my own decisions in life.
Yeah, yeah. You want him to make the decision for you by changing.
And then you have no power.
And then you resent him. Yep.
You got to pull that power back into you.
Back into you. Will you let me know how it goes?
Yeah, I'll keep you updated.
I'm still confused about, like, how do I, like, how do I stop doing what I'm doing, though?
Like, I can, like, apologize and stuff, but...
No, no, but see, you're, again, you're trying to control what you do in two weeks from now, but you don't know what it's going to be like for you two weeks from now when you apologize and you have a thought, you share it with him.
You want to change your behavior, you share it with him.
You want him to change, you share it with him.
Not as a demand to change, but as a thought you're having.
Real-time relationships.
You're perfectly honest with him about what's going on for you in the moment without an expectation that he'd change anything.
I want you to change is a feeling.
Not you should change, or you must change, or you have to change.
So if you are honest with him going forward, Then what does that look like for you?
The whole point is being honest is giving up control.
Withholding honesty is maintaining control over someone else.
It's how the government in totalitarian states maintains control over the information, right?
They dole out various pieces of information or withhold other pieces of information.
It's control, right? So if you're honest, you're giving up totalitarian control of information in the relationship and you're an open book for the other person.
Mm-hmm. So, what does that look like?
It's like saying, well, what does the Soviet Empire look like two years after the end of communism?
Nobody knows! That's the whole point.
Yeah, I'm starting to get it now more, I think.
Be honest. Honesty is the opposite of control.
Because controlling information is totalitarian.
So if you're honest with people, you don't know what that looks like.
That's the beauty of it.
That's the whole point. That's what keeps relationships alive.
If you knew what your relationship was going to look like in a month, it would be dead as a doornail.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But in the continual flow of honesty and growth and curiosity and exploration and fun, honesty keeps things alive.
Propaganda, control of information is dead.
Sorry, go ahead. It's like being honest about what's happening for me internally more.
Yeah. Instead of saying, I don't like this about you, more like I am having a negative reaction to this.
Like that? Yeah, and remind him.
It's not you. Don't change a thing.
I'm just telling you what my negative reaction is.
Got it. Okay.
And have him listen to this call, right?
Have him listen to this call.
And if he wants to call in, that's fine with me too.
But have, you know, so that he can understand.
Because otherwise you're just going to wander in after this call.
Like we've been going like two hours, right?
So you're going to wander in after this call and he's not going to know what the hell's going on.
So have him listen to the call.
Yep. All right?
All right. Thank you so much.
All right. You are welcome.
And I really appreciate the call.
You did wonderfully. Just wonderfully.
Thank you so much. All right.
Keep me posted. You're welcome.
Keep me posted. Let your hubby know or your boyfriend know if he wants to chat.
I'm absolutely happy to.
And freedomain.com forward slash donate.
Thanks as always to James the Magnificent for keeping it all running.
It's massively appreciated and couldn't do it without you.
And to you, the fine listeners, thank you.
Thank you so much for this incredible privilege.
Have a wonderful evening and we'll talk to you soon.
Well, thank you so much for enjoying this latest free domain show on philosophy and And I'm going to be frank and ask you for your help, your support, your encouragement, and your resources.
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