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Jan. 21, 2020 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:06:27
"Weed, Addiction, Procrastination! HELP, STEFAN!" Freedomain Call In Show
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Hi everybody, it's Stefan Molyneux from Freedom Man.
I'm here with Atrail and let's hear what he has to say and let's see what we can do to help.
Hello, my name is Floyd or Atrail, same person.
I was sexually abused as a kid and also an abuser as a kid.
I'm 23 now and just now accept the reality of my past.
I used to watch this show a lot in high school.
And like to this day, I still feel like it's something that's missing, that's holding me back, and I can't exactly identify what it is.
I also suffer from porn addiction, and I've been struggling with that for like three to six years.
I don't know exactly when it all started, but Currently, I'm trying to quit smoking weed.
I used to smoke, like, every single day.
And, like, I feel like I just repressed a lot of trauma that's, like, hindering me from moving on or that's either hindering me from moving on or stopping me from making rational decisions.
Like, I have a house, three-bedroom, and right now we're going dealing with, like, foreclosure because of, like, neglect between me and my dad.
Um... I don't have a job right now.
Well, I actually have a job now because I got one yesterday.
But sometimes I can find myself being comfortable with doing nothing.
Like, I can't wait until, like, shit hits the fan, per se, before I actually start to react and do anything about it.
Um, I feel like I suffer from a false pride, whereas how I actually feel about myself, no one actually understands me.
And they disagree with how I feel about myself.
People often say I'm too much.
You used to watch the show, like, a lot, but I'm like, a little while it's been off and on.
Like, I've had at least spent five or six years trying to figure out who I really am.
Because I would put in effort for a couple days and then just give up.
Like, I still don't know and I'm worried that I'm going to voluntarily ruin my life because logic practically shows that if I don't make the correct decisions within myself that my life...
I will have the life of a homeless man and I don't want to have any direction.
I don't have any direction right now in my life or Like what I want to do, even though I think I kind of know what I want to do.
It's just like, it's just out of control.
I don't know. Right.
Listen, I mean, that's an incredibly brave thing to say, and I appreciate the trust in this conversation.
Well, listen, that's a hell of a thing to have happened, my friend.
I am so, so sorry that you've got this mess to deal with in your head.
I mean, the sexual abuse is tough.
Being the abuser, of course, can come with a kind of guilt penalty that's pretty...
Powerful. So I just, I mean, this is not where anybody should be starting their life.
This is not a burden that anybody should have to carry.
And I'm just, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry that...
This has happened to you and that this is what you have to deal with.
It's beyond wrong.
It's some of the worst things that one human being can do to another.
I just want to start off with a massive blanket sympathy statement for where you are and what happened in the past.
I appreciate that. All right.
Now, I guess the next question is, and I'm sorry to ask for this detail, but I do find it helpful to know how far the abuse against you went.
So what was the circumstances and what happened?
So, like, it really started, like, when I started watching porn.
Like, I was, like, maybe six, seven, like, really young.
And, like, I found the tapes that my dad had, you know, the DVDs and videos, and I used to watch those and hide them from.
And I want to say, like, I had, like, encounters with his girlfriend's daughter.
I don't know. I think I was, like, 7 or 8, maybe.
Like, I don't know if I was above 10.
I just know I was younger than 10, or at least around that age.
And, like... We tried to reenact what happened on the tapes and stuff like that.
It wasn't just, like, his daughter.
It was, like, his girlfriend's daughter, cousin.
We had an interaction as well.
And then, like, that went from them to, like, my younger cousin to, like...
It was, like, multiple younger cousins.
So it would be, like...
Three or four in total.
We would have encounters before the age of 10.
And I had one encounter with my older cousin.
He had us perform oral on me and one of my younger cousins.
And I think like a few sprinkles here and there of abuse.
Between, like, me and the younger kids, and that's when it stopped.
Like, I'll say, like, 11, 12, it really stopped.
And why did it, I mean, obviously I'm glad that it stopped, but what was the reason that it stopped?
I think I moved away.
Okay, so it may have continued, obviously, it probably did.
It's not for you because you moved, but the other kids could have continued, right?
Yeah, probably. Have you talked to them since about any of this, or is it just kind of one of these, nobody goes there?
Nobody knows about it.
Okay, okay, okay.
So it really is a family secret, right?
Yeah. How...
How unsupervised were you guys?
I mean, this, like, Lord of the Flies porn reenactment stuff, where were the adults?
I mean, this is a lot of time that you guys have for this.
Were you Lashky kids, or how did it come about?
Well, like, okay, so when I was living with my uncle, it was, like, a pretty big family.
It was, like, my mom, my brother, me, and then it was my uncle, his wife, and his two kids.
And, like, my uncle was always at work.
I don't know, like, on my dad, on my dad, on my uncle's side, I mean, yeah, my auntie, like, his wife, her grandma was down the street from us.
And, like, I don't know, because we was able to, like, just go outside freely at, like, second grade, so it's kind of hard to say how.
Because they was always there, but it wasn't, like, during those moments.
We had opportunities by ourselves.
Now, were you...
I mean, there was the... I guess the pornographic material that...
Sorry, there was the pornographic material that your father had around.
Was there anything else that happened from an adult towards you that would be in this category?
Only my older cousin.
How much older was he?
Um... He was in high school when I was, like, an adolescent.
Like, I was, like, fourth, fifth grade, maybe.
Okay, so, and he was in high school?
Yeah. Oh, man, I'm sorry.
That's horrible.
Do you know what happened to this dude?
I mean, do you think that he may have continued with other kids?
I don't know if he did it with me and his brothers, but I don't know if he did it anymore.
Right, right. And so when you moved away, when you were, I think, around 12, you moved away and...
We both were, like, across the bridge.
So, like, we were all there.
There was no more than I could.
I'm so sorry. I'm having a very, very tough time hearing you.
Is there any other way, any other speaker that you could use or any other microphone that you could use?
So you said that there was a sexual encounter after you moved, after you were sort of 12 or so, and what was that?
So... We went, I don't know where we was at.
We went on like some trip.
It was like two that I can remember when I was living on 10th.
So it was one with an older cousin where I was just humping her while we was all sleeping.
She was older than me. And it was one where I was humping my little cousin.
She wasn't related to us, but it was my uncle or my cousin's girlfriend's daughter.
Like, I don't know where we went, but I was at their house, and I just remember it happened.
Right, okay. And was that it until your sort of more mature sexual encounters later on?
Yeah. Okay.
Now, your consumption of pornography during this time, was it also pretty constant?
It was like...
It was like more...
It was like...
At least once or twice a month.
Because when I would go to my dad's house, I would always watch it.
Or I would watch the sex scenes in the movies.
So, sorry, you said your dad was watching these graphic scenes in movies, like mainstream movies kind of thing?
Yeah. Well, you know the movies when they have tits out and stuff.
Never heard of such a thing.
I'm far too pure for any of that.
I've heard of it, though. I've heard of it.
Obviously, I just go blind whenever I see naked breasts.
But, you know, maybe you can describe them.
No, no, don't even describe them to me, because then I'll go blind as well.
Yeah. We go across the line.
Alright, alright. Now, how has your, I guess, dating life been in the face of all of this and how has that played out?
Um, so, like, my dating history isn't the greatest.
Um, I had, um, like, I waited a long time.
Like, I didn't I have sex until I was, like, 21.
And, like, the first girl I had sex with was unprotected, and, like, she gave me chlamydia.
Oh, man. Yeah.
So, like, I had major trust issues going forward.
And, like, the next girl I was with, I projected all of those trust issues on top, which caused, you know, an abusive relationship.
Abusive how? I was just like guilt-tripping her about certain shit.
Now I understand the fact of the immaturity when you're dating someone younger than you, but in a moment it was just like certain things that will be said or done, I'll just be like, the way I would go about it wasn't beneficial to anyone of us.
How long did you date that woman for?
Like a year. And how did it end?
I had left her.
You left her, okay. So she was, I mean, she was still hanging in there, despite the fact that you had a bit of a mean streak in the relationship, right?
Yeah, but it was kind of like both sides was doing stuff.
Oh, she gave as good as she got, so to speak?
Yeah. All right.
So why did you end it?
Um, well, I was trying, like, I had, we just got the house, and I was just trying to, like, keep, like, okay, well, like, when we was going through all the drama and stuff, I was just trying to keep up, like, working and, like, because she was, like, she fell into a depression where she would just sit in the room and do nothing.
But she started messing with another guy, and the fact that she brought him into the house is just a deal breaker for me.
Oh, gosh. And when I found that out, it was over with after that.
Because the entire time I wanted to be with her, I just didn't know how to go about getting the changes I wanted or making the changes myself because of my pride and ego.
Well, and if the guy she was messing with also had chlamydia and he brings it home and you get it from her, it's like round two, right?
Yeah, for real. And that's terrifying.
Yeah, yeah. I get that. I get that.
I mean, sorry. When I say I get that, not that I got chlamydia, but I get that it's terrifying.
All right. Just want to be clear about all of this.
Okay. So what happened with your dating life?
You guys were living together, right?
And then you moved out.
Is that right? She moved out.
She moved out, alright. And what's happened since then?
I've been living here still.
I lost my puppy.
I got a new puppy. I got a job.
Lost that job. Got a new job.
I'm in a new relationship right now.
So, it was basic life stuff.
Like, I had a month and a half where I was just, like, mentally messed up.
But I kind of got saved because my roommate, one of my best friends, he was going through, like, relationship problems, too, and he ended up ending his relationship with his baby mom, and he ended up moving in.
And, yeah, when he moved in, it kind of, like, helped, like, comb over the sadness of it all.
He was able to, like, sit there and communicate and, like, figure out, like, ways to move forward based on, like, what we both went through.
Right. And, like, I had someone because, like, I have an issue with, like, self-motivating or doing things that I know I need to do unless people are around me.
And, like, since my roommate was here, I was able to, like, move on with my life.
So he was, like, a good nag in a way, right?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay. He was that person that would come in and be like, bro, get the fuck out the bed.
Right. That's not the poster with the kittens, is it?
No, it's not. Okay.
Wow, wow. No, but you know, that tough love can be helpful, right?
Yeah, because it motivated me to get out the trap of just sitting there being sad all day.
Right, right. Now, what was the sadness, do you think?
Where was it coming from, primarily?
From feeling bad about how I manifested the relationship out.
Right. Like the bad things that you did in the relationship, right?
Yeah. It wasn't really as much about what she did.
It was the fact that I drove her to certain things.
Go on?
Well, I had a big trust issue thing.
Now, granted, I know...
I don't want to say it's not her responsibility, the action she took from it, because...
I mean, she still had to make decisions, but, like, it was just, like, constant, like, accusations for me.
But it wasn't, like, unwarranted, so it's kind of, like, a slippery slope.
Because she would do certain things that would, like, trigger me and make me react certain ways.
And it's like I did my best to explain, like, why I felt that way.
And, like, her reaction would be, like, anger or some shit like that.
And it would be like an argument and no resolution would come from it.
And the reason I feel responsible is because as a mature person in the situation, I could have handled it differently.
Right. As opposed to fighting emotion with emotion because we're women.
They often are outgunned.
They will outgun you when it comes to emotions.
You can't usually keep up.
It's like arm wrestling, but in reverse.
So it was just like It turned to passive aggressiveness, and then, like, obviously we started looking for other people while we were still together.
Right. Wow.
Okay. Now, how long ago, this was a couple of years ago that you broke up?
Like seven months ago.
I'm sorry, say again? So like seven months ago.
Seven months ago, sorry. Okay, okay, got it.
And you have fears, like you're not saying, oh, you know, there's tough stuff with my childhood and this was not a good relationship and I feel bad about what I did in some ways.
But a lot of what you're saying is much stronger than that, like a sense of doom, a sense of I could end up homeless, I could destroy my life.
And where's that coming from?
What is the play out for me how these dominoes fall down that you end up like life destroyed, homeless guy, shopping cart, crazy beer, you know, Kleenex boxes on your feet and so on.
That's because like when it comes to like handling business, it's just like I'll allow other things to like take priority over that.
Or it's just like I wouldn't want to do it in a moment.
I don't know. Like, just, like, as far as, like, paying bills.
Oh, they kind of pile up?
Yeah. You need to get married.
I will have the money for it and just not pay it.
Right. And, like, I feel like I get that from my dad because he never really paid the bill from town.
They still don't. That's how we end the situation.
Oh, you mean the foreclosure?
Yeah, when I lost my job, like, he stopped paying as well.
Oh boy. Yeah.
Where's your mama in all of this?
My mom lived in Texas.
So when did she go there?
Or when did she leave your family or you left her?
They split when I was young.
Like real young. I don't remember.
I remember like...
I vaguely remember I was living together.
So they had to split when I was like three or four.
Maybe five. And my mom told me they split because he was cheating on her and he got something.
And when he came back home, she was trying to have sex with him.
And he was like, oh, I should put on a condom.
And she kind of put two and two together there.
And then when I asked my dad about it, he was just saying that he couldn't help.
He'd go through life just doing what he wanted to do in a moment.
Brian... So, I mean, that's...
I mean, the patterns are so bloody obvious, right?
But they're kind of creepy nonetheless, right?
I mean, your dad gets an STD and your mom leaves him and then your first sexual encounter is an STD and, I mean, gosh, that's...
And it's just, like, me seeing that, like, you know, annoying history piece is just, like, when I sometimes take a look at myself and, like, notice that I'm doing the same shit that he's doing, it's, like, that's what's terrifying.
Oh, yeah. Like, it's almost like you don't even want to know what the future is going to be if you can't change it.
Like, if the future is doom and you can't change it, it's like, can I just take a spoon and take that part of my brain out that knows that?
Because that anticipation is making things worse, right?
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Whew, man. And how's your dad's life going these days?
He's still doing the same thing.
He was doing it when I was younger.
So he still got a bunch of different girlfriends.
Before my grandpa passed away, he was trying to juggle two families.
He had this girl who had three kids and another girl.
One of the girls, she worked at the, she got me a job at the store next door to her house, but I hated her because like how fucked up it made upstairs living, like living with my dad, my brother and his mom.
Cause my dad had, when my brother was born, my little brother mom moved in with my dad and like that was their like family, but it wasn't really.
Right.
It was like, he was trying to, trying to trouble two families.
He was always just, he just spun the streets. - Wow.
Now, what is it that you would most like over the next couple of years?
Like, you climb whatever mountain you set for yourself, and what is that mountain, and sort of what do you want to feel in a couple of years if you've achieved what you want?
I just want to be able to do the things that I, like, know I want to do.
Like, it comes to, like, a point where it's just, like, certain, like...
Like, just paying the bills on time.
Like, I want to just be able to actually do that and not have the thought of, oh, I'll do it later.
I just want to stop procrastinating.
Right, right, right.
I know that's what's going to end up ruining it, because I keep procrastinating.
This is not going to get done.
Well, you can see it happening with your father in the house, right?
Exactly. Like, in real time, this is it, right?
Yeah, I'm going through it right now.
Right. Okay, so then that's the question, right?
I mean, it's a really, really deep question.
It goes, I think, right back to your history, which is...
It's this question of self-care.
Do you take care of yourself?
For some people, that's really extreme.
They don't go to the dentist.
They don't brush their teeth. They don't eat well.
They're just on this real decline, and then things just fall apart in their life from a health standpoint.
Now, I'm just looking at your picture, good-looking, healthy-looking guy.
It looks like you're taking care of yourself to some degree, but this money stuff, this bill stuff, this procrastination stuff, Is that the major area where you're like hitting the wall?
Yeah. It's like self-motivation to do the things that I feel I need to do to achieve the goals I want to achieve.
Right. So like the day-to-day grind of going to study for a test when I need to pass an exam because I want to get a license.
Like I will legit procrastinate until like three or four days before I got to take the test.
Cram everything up in there and then flip a coin and hope for the rest.
So, no, I get it. Listen, I've been there too, man.
I understand. Now, what is the feeling when you just, like, so you have something to do, like a bill do, or you got something to do for a test or whatever.
And you say, like, if you would say, I'm going to do it now, I'm not going to put it off.
I'm going to do it now because... You know, it's like, it's the same thing that kids have with their homework, right?
So let's say, you know, you have a long weekend from school, right?
You get off Friday, you don't have to go back till Tuesday.
Now, every kid on the planet knows that what you should do is sit down Friday night, do your damn homework, and then you don't have it hanging over you for the weekend, right?
That's what every kid knows.
But what does every kid do?
We go play. We go play.
And then what happens is you say, it even gets to be, and you know, your parents are like, maybe they're saying you should do your homework or whatever, right?
And you're like, yeah, yeah, I'll get to it, right?
And then what happens is, Monday night, you know, it's like, oh man.
And then you say, oh, you know, I'll just get up early.
Exactly. I'll get up early and I'll do it in the morning.
And then what happens? The alarm goes off and it's like, I'm not getting up early.
And then you go in and you fake your way through the day.
And please, God, don't call on me.
Whatever you do, don't call on me, right?
Yeah. So that feeling, what is that feeling?
If you were to say to yourself...
Almost like your friend was saying, you know, get the F out of bed.
If you were to say to yourself, damn it, just get up and do this thing, whatever you got to do.
What is the feeling that comes in response to you saying that to yourself?
So it's like to train the thoughts that I have when it's time to do something.
Because, like, I can't get up and go sometimes, depending on what I did in the morning.
Because, like, I usually would masturbate in the morning.
So, like, if I was to masturbate in the morning and I had something to do, I'd be like, oh, I'll do it when I get up, or I'll do it in a minute, or, you know, I'll procrastinate.
Give me 10, 15 minutes, and then I'll do it.
Or, like, when I'm, like, not...
Hi, or masturbating or anything, I get up, and I'm like, okay, I gotta do this, and I count to three.
One, two, three, and just move.
But it's like, I don't, there's no consistency with that.
It's just like a flip-flop between the two.
But what's the feeling when you kind of order yourself to move?
What's the feeling that kind of comes up in you that resists that?
Because, I mean, if you didn't have resistance to doing this stuff, right?
What's the feeling? Fear.
I'd be nervous and anxious.
Okay, so fear of what, though?
Fear of what? I don't know.
Like, the reaction to us.
Like, when the house, like, the house is in for a closure.
And I will have to go to my grandma's house to get paperwork.
And, like, while I'm telling myself, okay, I need to make time to stop at my grandma's house when it's time to go, I just get scared and do some other shit.
Okay. Now, are you scared of your grandma?
Are you scared of, like, what is the fear of?
I don't know. I think it's...
Because it's like...
I don't know. I think it's, like, shame or something because, like, sometimes I'll miss the day.
And then, like, say if I had a deadline to do something and I miss that day, well, it'll take me, like, a week and a half to get back to what I was supposed to do.
Right. Okay. A week and a half before.
So it's, like...
If I miss a day or anything, like if I miss a payment or something like that, and other people know about it, I don't want to be around them.
So I just don't go do what I got to do.
It's all the shame.
So shame is kind of running in, right?
In some ways. Okay, okay.
So... One of the things I think that happens...
In our lives is if we have a continual feeling as a child, we just get used to that.
And when we don't have that, we kind of miss it.
Now, if that's a good feeling, that's great.
If it's a bad feeling, then that's not great, right?
Then it's, I think, tough to let go of circling the shame drain, so to speak.
Like, you can't break free, but you don't go all the way.
And your concern, I think, is that you're going to go all the way and fall into genuinely, like, unrecoverable shame stuff, like the homelessness or whatever, right?
Yeah. So maybe, just maybe this shame thing is just...
What you're used to, or in a sense, what you're worth or what you deserve.
In other words, if you lived a shame-free life, I think that would be kind of tough for you in a way, because that's what you're used to.
That's just like the room temperature that you sit in, right?
It gets too hot, it gets too cold, it's uncomfortable.
So, like shame...
Shame of the sexual activity when you were a kid.
Shame of, like, maybe your father's behavior.
Shame of the pornography.
Shame of the weed.
Like, going all the way back from what I can hear, and, you know, you've got to tell me where I'm going astray here, but going all the way back, it looks to me or seems to me like shame is kind of like the...
Consistent. The consistent thing, right?
Yeah. It definitely is.
Because I get in these periods of my life, like when me and my ex broke up and I lost my job at DHL. I lost my job because my roommate was ruined and I decided I wanted to stay home and just hang out.
And I feel like...
Like, the quickness in which I took action on, like, getting a new job and, like, reacclamating to life was just, like, so delayed because it was just, like, I didn't want to get out of bed because I felt bad about the relationship and what I was doing in it.
Right. So it's almost like you were punishing yourself.
Yeah, I do that a lot.
Well, like I get self-destructive.
I don't hurt myself physically, but I put myself down mentally a lot.
So was there a time when you were a kid that you ever felt sort of elevated or powerful or...
I almost want to say loved, if that makes sense.
Like, the only, the happiest point of my life I can remember is when I was living in Texas and I was going to college.
That's when, like, everything was, like, I was doing what I was supposed to do.
My mom was happy and I was happy.
I had friends and they were doing what they were supposed to do.
My next door neighbor, she was awesome.
It was really awesome.
Everything about it was just dope.
I was proud of the stuff I was doing in my everyday life.
I was proud of the help I was providing to my sister because she worked at the hospital for 12 hours and she needed someone to watch her dogs and stuff like that.
It was just like That was like the happiest one in my life, walking definitively.
How long did that last for?
Like seven months, eight months.
I had to come back to Chicago.
Okay, okay. And why do you think it was different out there?
Um... I didn't have anything stopping me from doing the things I wanted to do.
No, no, but you were still there, right?
You were still in your own body, your own brain, and if it's you who's stopping you, then you were still there, right?
So there's got to be something external that changed that almost gave you permission to be more proactive.
I guess because I wasn't having access to weed as much.
I don't know. Wait, are you saying you went to college and couldn't find any weed?
No, I was able to find it, but I couldn't smoke like I used to.
I used to just be able to sit in the house and get hot.
Or in Texas, I couldn't smoke in the house at all.
So me smoking would have to be after school, after work, after I took care of what I had to take care of.
Okay, so then when you came back, you got more into the weed, and you think that kind of sanded down your motivation?
Yeah, because I stopped caring as much.
I was also really hurt about the fact that I got sent back because of weed.
Because me and my mom had this discussion about me being able to smoke on my brakes.
And like, it was Christmas break and she was like, no.
And me being an asshole, hard hit, I was like, fuck it.
I'm going to smoke anyway. And I got caught.
Oh, so your mom said no weed.
You smoked the weed and that's why you got sent back.
Exactly. And I never left, like, forgave myself for that.
Because I would have been graduating college right now.
Okay, so that moment...
Okay, okay, okay.
I think I'm getting something.
I think I'm getting something.
It is that don't tell me what to do stuff, right?
Yeah. You sound like the kind of guy, and I mean, I'm a little bit this way too, so I think we're brothers in arms as far as that goes, but you sound like the kind of guy that's like, you know, the best way to get me to do something is tell me not to, right?
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Because if you tell me to do that, I will not do it.
Right, so if she'd said, if she'd said, I absolutely need you to smoke weed, you'd be like, no!
Right, no way. But it was the fact, and I know because, like, I can see it, like, with everyday, like, things for people.
Like, even with my last job, my supervisor would tell me, like, Because I got a real laugh, a really loud laugh.
He would tell me not to talk so we can focus on work because I would cause a distraction.
And then I'd go out my way to start talking.
Right. Right.
Now, this question of being forced to do stuff.
It's something I learned quite young.
It was in some stupid business seminar that I was actually dragged to by someone I was doing computer work for and neither here nor there.
But the guy said, most people will do just about anything you ask them to and just about nothing you tell them to.
Yeah. And I guess that to me is if you have a goal, but the only way that you can motivate yourself to pursue that goal is Is to become in your head like people you always say no to, then you're kind of saying no to yourself and no to the goal.
Does that make any sense? Yeah.
If you give yourself orders and you don't like being given orders, then you're going to fight back Against yourself, given those orders.
And it won't matter what the goal is, right?
Like if your goal, obviously you were happy at college and you were enjoying yourself and you were more clear-headed and so on.
But if your mom says, no pot, it's like, you know, screw that.
You know, you can't tell me what to do, right?
Yeah. So if the only way you can make your...
Sorry, go ahead. I will rationalize it too.
So like... Because, like, the people I hung out with in high school was, like, openly abusive to their parents.
I would, like, argue back with her.
Like, oh, it's not, like, Tom, Tom, like, fucking tried to kill his mom, you know?
You should be grateful for that.
But, like, that's momentarily enough.
So I would be arguing.
It wouldn't even be, like, directly.
It would be, like...
Me arguing with myself to not do what she told me to do.
So I'll be internally arguing with her.
Right. As a kid, I couldn't fight back because there's my mom.
I lose every time.
Yeah. Yeah.
No, I get that. So I just wanted to point out that I noticed you saying that one of your friends tried to kill his mom.
Now, did you mean like, oh, he tried to kill his mom like...
Beat her in an argument to the point where she was...
No, no, no. Like...
Oh, my God.
Yeah. All right.
I just... I didn't want to just have that blow...
I mean, we can't really stop there because I want to get to the procrastination, but I didn't want that to pass like I didn't hear it because that's...
No, yeah, no. It definitely happened.
Yeah, it definitely was fucked up.
Yeah, kind of, kind of.
All right. Okay, so...
How do you get yourself to do stuff without ordering yourself?
It's a big question, right? Yeah.
And, I mean, I've got a whole video which I did some years ago on procrastination, but I'll sort of give you the brief synopsis here.
Maybe it'll help, right? Okay.
To react to authority in a negative way is perfectly sensible if that authority...
Has not created respect within you, right?
So, I mean, let's take a silly example, right?
So you're calling me up here.
Hopefully, I'll have something useful to say.
You know I'm not going to order you and tell you what to do because I don't do that and I wouldn't do that.
But I'm going to give you some feedback, but I'm not like an authority who's going to tell you what to do.
So it's not like you're not willing to take feedback because you're calling me up.
To get feedback, right?
So you're willing to do that, right?
So what's the difference?
I mean, probably quite a bit, but what's the difference between me and, say, your mom or your mom than your dad?
Whereas if I'm going to give you some suggestions, you'll be like, alright, I'll think about that.
Whereas with your mom, it's like, no!
Right? So what's the difference, do you think?
I just felt like, as a kid, a lot of the stuff that she would yell at me about, she wouldn't be doing.
Especially as far as, like, Cleaning and shit like that.
Like, she worked 12-hour days, so I would have to clean and cook for my brother.
And like, you know how parents, sometimes they get tired and they take days off where they don't do the things that they say that they want you to do.
And like, that used to just piss me off.
Like, the older I got, the more angry I got about it.
Okay, so she'd say, you gotta do the things you're supposed to, but she wasn't doing the things she was supposed to, right?
Yeah. Or they wouldn't align at all.
What do you mean? The way she would tell me to clean something wouldn't be the way she would clean something.
Oh, yeah. Don't just do it.
Do it the way that I would do it.
And I'm going to hover over you and make it so unpleasant for you to do it that you're never going to want to do it again.
And then I'm going to get mad because you didn't do it.
Yeah, exactly. So we go back and forth, like, literally, because I'm not doing it right.
And I was like, I don't even want to do it no more.
Or, like, if you tell me to do it and then, like, leave me alone, I usually did it.
Right. But then the question is, did you do it in the right way?
And, you know, the inspector general comes back and, you know, you missed a crumb or this wasn't stacked properly or, you know, heaven forbid you're around a controlling woman when you try and stack a dishwasher, your life will be doomed, right?
Yeah. It's not the right way.
You've got to do these first and he's got to go at the top shelf.
Yeah, that's rough, man.
That's really rough because then you internalize that and then you feel like if you're doing stuff, you're just obeying a bossy parent.
Exactly. I used to just really hate myself because I couldn't make her happy.
I had moments where I would just be in my room crying.
This happened when I moved to Bolingbrook when I was in high school.
Or just go in the room and start crying because, like, I didn't do what she said right.
Or, like, I don't know.
I just felt like whatever I did, nothing I did made her or my dad happy.
That's a powerful thing to say.
It's a very powerful thing to say.
And a lot of people struggle with that.
A lot of people struggle with that.
Because when your mom's happy, a...
She's not going to be naggy.
When your mom's happy, there's security.
I mean, you want your mom to be happy because you care about your mom, but there's also kind of like a security in that for you, right?
Because when your mom's happy, she's not on the warpath.
Yeah, she's not going to yell at me or anything.
She's going to be nice, you know?
Would you say that there were other things or other people that made your mom happy?
Not until she got like with her fiancé.
It was like I don't really know.
It wasn't like she was always angry.
She would have moments where she wasn't angry.
I didn't do anything to get in trouble.
We'd just be having fun, just hanging out and talking and interacting and stuff.
Her sister was always close with her, so she always had someone to talk to.
I was always over there with my cousins.
Right. So there were times when she was happy, but I mean, these 12-hour days, man, that's rough.
That's rough. It's hard to be peppy, you know, perky after that.
Exactly. Right.
Now, you have a lot of secrets from your family, right, in terms of what happened to you as a kid.
I assume that to some degree with your mom, she doesn't know the extent of your pot use, right?
Um... Well, it did diminish a lot.
I don't smoke as much as I used to, but she didn't know how bad it was, no.
Right. Because it wasn't only pot.
I was venturing off into mushrooms, acid, pills, all types of stuff.
But I was more conscientious about it, so I would just try it, but not do it every day or do it very often with my friends who were doing it daily.
Because I knew, like, it's not going to end well if I get hooked.
Yeah, well, that's...
I think you're the wisest drug user I've talked to in quite some time.
No, that's not unimportant, right?
Because, I mean, there's a lot of trauma that leads you, I think, to use those drugs.
And then, of course, there's a lot of wisdom in making sure you don't fall off the cliff, right?
Yeah. All right.
Well, like, I attribute a lot of that.
Because me and my mom, when she was in her good moods, had a lot of conversations about the impact that certain decisions and choices can take you down paths.
Right.
Because I would sometimes vent to her about my friends and how they would treat their parents.
Because it was night and day for me.
It was just weird.
Do you think it's possible that part of your self-destructiveness is anger at your parents?
In other words, If you succeed, it's almost like saying they did a good job or they were great or whatever.
Look, I'm not saying they did a terrible job or whatever, but whatever criticisms you have of them, if you succeed, if you're responsible, if you do well, particularly if you do better than them, if you're still mad at people, it's tough to give them any satisfaction at all, right?
Like, it serves you right and so on.
And so if you have anger towards your parents, some of the ways that that comes out, I think, is...
I'm not going to succeed because that's going to validate what you guys did.
I don't really think that's the case.
Okay, good. It's your life.
You tell me where I'm barking up the wrong tree.
That's totally fine. I'll make poor decisions.
And when I'm sad, I'll be thinking about how I let my mom down because I'm not successful.
And I know I should be.
Right. Right, okay.
Okay, so it's not that. That's fine.
We can wipe that one off the blackboard, so to speak.
Now, if you are someone who rebels against being told what to do, there really is, unfortunately, or fortunately, I suppose, only one solution.
And it's going to seem kind of counterintuitive, which is, You have to stop telling yourself what to do.
Because if telling yourself what to do builds resistance, then ordering yourself what to do is going to achieve the opposite effect of what you want, right?
Yeah, it's going to be all more resistance.
So, I mean, the basic truth of life is, I mean, this is philosophically true.
It doesn't feel true, but it's philosophically true.
Man, you don't have to do anything.
You don't have, now, I get that you've got this fear, like you're bullying yourself with homelessness, right?
Because, yeah, I get it. Like, you're a young guy, you don't have, like, a billion dollars in the bank, and so if you don't get out of bed, if you don't do anything, at some point you're going to be out on your ass, right?
Yeah, exactly. And that's what, like, kind of guilt-tripping me to, like, doing shit.
Yeah, but, and you know, that'll work for a little while.
Yeah. You know, like you can run really fast if there's a lion chasing you, but you can't keep it up, right?
Yeah. So that'll work for a little while, but it won't work for too long.
And they'll usually be blowback, right?
So as you say, like you get the job and then you get resentful because your boss says don't talk, you got a loud voice and then you talk more and so on, right?
So the reality is, the reality is you don't have to do anything.
Like that's the choice because right now you're like a pinball bouncing off.
Well, mommy wants me to do this and I want to do that, but I'm afraid of this and I'm resistant to that.
So it's almost like you're bouncing off like a pinball all of these circumstances or pushbacks or frustrations or desires.
But it's not like you're in a...
I think of it like... I don't know if you've seen the movie The Matrix, right?
So there's this bit where Laurence Fishburne takes...
Keanu Reeves' character to this big white space, right?
And then he zooms in all of these weapons and it all gets kind of funky from there.
But that white space, that like totally blank white, like you can do anything.
You can do anything. You could choose to travel.
You could choose to go work on a steamship.
You could choose to get a job.
You could choose to borrow money and go to school.
You could choose to start up a jazz band.
Like you could choose anything in life, that sort of blank space.
Where anything is possible.
Now, if you're in that blank space where anything is possible, then you're not bouncing off things, right?
And every time you bounce off things, you diminish your free will a little bit more.
And every time you say, well, I gotta do something or I'm gonna be homeless, it's like you're yelling at yourself.
You're like one of those guys in the army, you know, where the guy's screaming at him and making him do 40 push-ups and stuff like that.
So... If you can get to that place where you don't have to do anything, then whatever you choose to do is something where you won't have resistance because you're not being made to do it.
Does that make sense? Yeah, it'd be something I wanted to do.
Something you wanted to do.
So let me ask you this.
If you weren't bouncing off things, if you weren't reacting to things, if you weren't scared or frustrated or fearful, what is it that you would most want to do if you were standing in that big white space of choice, so to speak?
Honestly, I would want to be a psychologist.
I sit down and talk to people and help them figure out their lives.
If you want me to be, that's something I've always wanted to do.
So you want to help people with their issues.
And listen, as far as I can tell, you've got a very astute mind for self-knowledge.
I mean, the stuff you've ripped off in terms of associations is really complex and deep and powerful, so it seems to me like you've got really good instincts that way, and that could probably be a pretty good use of your short time on the planet, right?
Yeah. I also think that People gravitate to me and tell me certain things because I'm able to listen to them.
And that's been a big deal in my life because even when I was young...
It's just like you create this little character and you talk to a bunch of random kids all over the world.
And it's just like even the way I carry myself on there was like how I want to act in real life.
Sorry, go ahead. I'll just be getting in my own way.
So like if I have like a bad, like some bad event happen, I'll like Kind of like feed into that by listening to sad music and like downing myself and stuff like that.
But you're one of the people who's like a listening well.
In other words, people will just come and pour their heart out.
They'll tell you what's going on because you have a listening power.
It's a very, very powerful thing to have in this life.
It's to have a listening power.
And it sounds to me that you're one of these people, I've known people like this in their life, people just unburden themselves to you.
You're like a priest. You're like a listening well.
People just come and draw water.
I used to call myself a social template.
That's not the direct analogy that I would have used, but yeah, I hear what you're saying.
I hear what you're saying. Yeah, no, that, you know, you absorb, I suppose to speak.
You absorb people and, you know, that's a very powerful gift.
It's a very powerful gift and you can do a huge amount of good.
Because, as you know, like most people go through life and hardly anybody listens to them.
Everyone's just waiting for their turn to talk.
To actually listen to someone, to be listened to, it's a pretty powerful thing because we kind of hear ourselves when we talk deeply, right?
Yeah. Alright, so that's interesting.
So, I mean, you could go, obviously, full professional route, become a psychologist.
That's quite a long time, long process, but, you know, not too bad on the other side.
You could go kind of like life coach route.
You could write a book and self-publish if you need to.
You could start writing a blog and hope to attract people that way.
I mean, there's lots of things that you could do to start honing those skills, whether it's sort of formally through school or more informally through just Having conversations or writing or things like that.
And the reason I say all of that is that there's things that you could do to start moving towards that goal that wouldn't be...
You have to, if that makes sense.
Yeah. I kind of, like, limit myself by, like, making checklists.
So, like, as far as, like, helping people, I want to, like...
I want to get a license and get stabilized and then go help people.
Well, my biggest thing is I want to figure myself out so I can tell people how.
You're not all sad. Right, right.
Okay. Okay, so then there's your motivation about what you want to do, which if it's not coming from a place of being bullied or scared, that's your desire, right?
Okay, so that's your, like, white space choice, so to speak, right?
Yeah. But then there's another thing which is part of motivation, I think, that's important as well, which is...
You believe, and I think with good reason, that you could really help people in the world.
You could help people have better relationships.
You could help people be better parents.
You could help people have greater self-knowledge.
You could help people get out of addiction.
You could help people really turn their lives around, right?
Yeah. So...
It's interesting because they kind of have a say in it as well, all the people that you could help.
Now, that's not a bullying thing.
Yeah, but that's not a bullying thing.
But then if you say, okay, well, I'm just going to put it off or I'm not going to do it.
So recognizing that's not exercising your choice and your will, but also you're delaying your capacity to help people.
Yeah, I am. You know, and like imagine, so imagine this, this is sort of a silly example, but I hope it's kind of vivid, right?
So imagine that, you know, you're driving with your mom, I'm sorry to use this example, but let's say you get in, it won't happen, you got into a car crash, right?
Now you're trapped in the car, she's like, she's on the road, right?
And then there are people driving by, I mean, how desperately do you want them to stop and help your mom and help yourself?
Yeah, I'll be like out of control.
Yeah. Oh, of course.
You'd be like, whatever you do, stop and help us, right?
Yeah. Now, if you can sort of picture that, maybe not quite as extreme, although maybe for some people it is, right?
So you can picture that and you can say, okay, the people I could help in the future are kind of like me in that car.
They want me to come and help them.
They need me to come and help them.
Now, it sounds almost like it's so extreme, it's like a form of bullying, but it is very real that if you take on this task of helping people in the world, you will directly save lives.
You will directly fix people's lives.
You will directly cause them to be better people to get out of addiction.
I mean, you will, like a doctor, at a bus crash, you will save lives, right?
And those people whose lives you will save...
To me, they have to have a say in your choice, because that's a real consequence of your choice, if that makes sense.
Oh, what do you mean? Like, they have to have a say in my life?
Well, so, when you are stuck in that car and your mom needs help, you really, really want people to stop.
And part of the reason they would stop is because you want them to.
I'm not saying it's like psychic or anything like that, but...
The people, like if you say, oh, I'm just going to postpone this for like a year.
Okay, well, that's a year less that you get to help people.
Now, let's say that you were able to help, oh, I don't know, a thousand people in a year, right?
So that's a thousand less people or a thousand fewer people that you'll be helping because you postpone it all for a year.
Now, those thousand people don't want you to postpone it for a year.
Because maybe, like, those thousand people may not be helped by anyone else, right?
Certainly if nobody did it, nobody would be helped, right?
So those thousand people, it's like they don't get to order you around, but it's important to remember what they need and what they want in terms of your motivation.
Look, I mean, there are some days I don't want to do this show.
But I think of the good that I can do and the people that I can help and the wisdom that I can bring as I hope to.
And, you know, it's like, okay.
You know, again, it's not like, oh, God, I'm enslaved.
I can't choose. But it's a really, really important factor because I think it's easier to procrastinate when we forget the effect we can have on the world.
And think of the effect that you could have with your Skills, your knowledge, you listen to this show, your dedication to self-knowledge, all the other things that you've done.
Self-confronting, understanding about yourself, this path that you're on.
I mean, you could do an enormous amount of good in the world, and the people who are on the receiving end of that good should be part of the calculation.
In other words, if you can't motivate yourself to do it for you, At times, maybe you can motivate yourself to do it for them.
And then, once...
Listen, there have been times where I'm like, I don't want to do this show.
By the way, this isn't one of those times.
I'm really enjoying this. But there are times I don't want to do the show, and I've got something scheduled or whatever.
I sit down and do the show, and I have a really good time.
I have a really good show.
There are other times I want to do the show, and it's like suddenly it's like pulling teeth to get insights out of myself.
But nonetheless, right? Yeah.
So sometimes just getting it started because you have a commitment to helping people gets you kind of into the groove, so to speak, and you got momentum because you put one foot in front of the other.
But if it's just about you, then it's hard to be motivated.
In other words, if you don't process or take into account the effect you have on the world for good, then it's hard to be as motivated.
Like if you were a doctor, it would be hard to go...
To work if you just knew for some reason, no, but you weren't going to see anyone that day.
Because you wouldn't be affecting anyone, but you go to work and you say, okay, well, I helped this person, I helped that person, this person I sent to a specialist, this person I, you know, whatever, did something to them, I gave them the antibiotics or stitched up something that was cut or something, you know, so I did some good in the world and those people wouldn't have gotten that help if I wasn't there.
So if we forget the effect we have on the world, it's really tough to stay motivated because then it's all push and no pull.
In other words, it's all just willing stuff without the pull of other people's needs that we can satisfy being part of our equation.
Does that? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
All those people you can help, man.
I had a period where it was like a couple months of like when I decided that I wanted to be a life coach and I figured out a route that I could take and like I had started at the job I was working at and like I was talking to like a couple of different co-workers and they was just like expressing problems with me that like I kind of knew answers to and it like really motivated me to like go pursue the goals that I wanted to at that moment.
Right. Before like I like got on the whole like Eating schedule, like, protein.
I started working out regularly.
I started looking into classes and decided which one I wanted to go to.
Then I created a budget and followed the budget to pay for the classes.
And, like, what happened?
And something, like, my roommate left.
Like, it just stopped.
Because, like, when my roommate was here, like, I was, like, literally having, like, one-on-one coaching with him.
So I was, like, able to, like, see the result of, like, what I was doing every single day.
And, like, when he left, it just, like, sparked without control.
Right. Right.
Right. And that's because, yeah, that's because I think maybe he was helping to sort of, quote, bully you into doing the right thing.
But... It's still not your choice.
It's not sustainable. Like if you only go to work out because someone's yelling at you too, yeah, you'll keep it up for a while, but the resentment's going to build and it's not going to last the absence of that person yelling at you, right?
Yeah. Right.
So, you've got to find a way to own what it is that you want to do so that it's not about pleasing your mom or it's not about satisfying your roommate or it's not about, you know, but it's about something that you own, this like precious fire of your own free will that is guiding you to the life that you want.
Now, once you have that internalized goal, which starts from that blank space of choice and incorporates what the world needs you to do as well.
It's kind of an underrated thing, like, what does the world want me to do?
What does the world need me to do?
And on the days where the show is tough to do for me, or the conversation is tough to have, I'm like, okay, but what does the world need me to do?
Not necessarily what does the world want me to do, and certainly not what everyone in the world wants me to do, but what does the world as a whole need me to do?
How can I best serve everyone?
The world. And that is enough to get me going, right?
And then the momentum of what I'm doing kind of takes me from there, right?
Yeah. But there is, you know, I sort of hate to put it this way, but I think it's true that there is a kind of selfishness to laziness, to procrastination.
Because you're putting off the good that you could do in the world.
You're putting off the benefit that you could create in the lives of other people.
Just for that momentary gratification.
Right. For that avoidance.
Because I got a big issue with declining instant gratification.
Right. And I think that's tied into my porn addiction.
Right. And that's, you know, maybe for you, masturbating first thing in the morning doesn't get you out of bed with peak energy.
You know what I mean? No, it definitely doesn't.
I'm like two different people.
Right. Like, when I masturbate in the morning, I'm not...
Like, Floyd. When I'm, like, regular.
It's literally, like, night and day.
Right. Like, to the point where, like...
I don't know. It's just ridiculous.
Right, right. Okay, so I mean that's something that might be worth looking into.
Is there any point you think in talking to your family about the experiences that you had as a child with this sexual activity and molestation and that kind of stuff?
I was actually like...
Because we have a family trip coming up in February, and I wanted to talk to my cousin about it in February.
I think that's probably worthwhile.
I mean, that's a heavy burden of secrets to keep, and it's hard for people to understand who you are without knowing those traumas that you went through.
Like, they're just missing a big piece of the puzzle about who you are.
Yeah. That would make things clear.
It doesn't mean you're going to love them. It doesn't mean that everything's going to work out.
But there's usually some piece of information that makes things a lot more clear and gives you at least some sympathy for where they're coming from.
I mean, if you talk to your cousin, man, he may tell you stories and make your hair curl, so to speak, right?
about what happened to him as a kid, right?
And so if you don't share things like that with your family, they're not able to view you as a full person.
They're just seeing little fragments here and there of what they've experienced rather than everything that you've gone through that makes your behavior more understandable.
And I think that kind of honesty can be really helpful.
And it may not be beyond the possibility that something like that happened to your mom or or maybe your dad or whatever I mean, I was reading about how, what was it, about 50% of black girls get raped before they're 18.
I mean, this could be...
Yeah, it's super prevalent in our community.
Yeah, yeah. It could be like...
Even when I came back out here from the suburbs, I was talking to one of the locals.
Before me and him became friends, he was just explaining to me, like...
How, like, there's multiple blocks of, like, well-known family molestation.
Like, you can go to a block and then he'd point at a house and be like, oh, X, Y, Z was here and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Happened with her family, you know what I'm saying?
Yeah. Yeah, what the fuck indeed, right?
So, I mean, this may be something that gives you guys closeness and understanding of each other, and it takes away the shame to some degree, right?
Because what we keep secret is easy to feel ashamed of, right?
And it wasn't your fault that this happened to you as a child?
You were just trying to survive, and it was not right for your dad to leave this material around.
It was not good for you to have access to it, but you were victimized as a child.
This is not something that you signed up for.
This is not something that you willed or chose, and certainly looking back, I'm sure you wish it had not happened at all.
Yeah, for real. So there's nothing to be ashamed about with regards to that, and I think if you talk about it, it might be the kind of thing that brings your family...
Closer, although it will be a tough subject to talk about, but it certainly could be something that it certainly would give them understanding.
I mean, can you imagine having this conversation with me without me knowing any of that stuff?
It would be kind of tough to navigate, right?
Yeah. But that's the position your family's in.
They don't know the stuff that happened to you that had a lot to do with shaping who you are.
Yeah, because I never told them.
You never told them. And that comes out of the shame.
And I think that the shame is not on you, man.
The shame is on the parents who fail to keep you safe.
It's on the older, you know, the high school guy, the older people in the environment and so on.
And it's not on you.
It's not on you. It's not your bad.
It's not your fault.
It's not your... I need to.
All right. So, does this give you a place to at least start working from?
Maybe talk to family, figure out what you would choose, and it sounds like you've got a very interesting and powerful plan there to help people.
Recognize that nobody's going to force you to do anything, not even reality, right?
You don't even have to eat. I mean, it won't be good for you, but you don't have to eat.
So recognize that everything that you do is a choice and really, really try to focus on the good that you can do in the world and how much people out there in the world desperately want you to be available to do that good because that's a very, very powerful place to start from and that will help you get over some of the indifference to Your own future happiness that I think is causing you to undermine yourself in this way?
Yeah, because I really...
Yeah. Alright, well listen, that's what I wanted to say.
Is there anything else that you wanted to add?
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to speak with me about this.
Oh, you're welcome, man.
You are more than welcome. I appreciate the honesty and courage it takes to call in.
It is a hard thing to do, and I really appreciate that.
Thank you. Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
Yeah, I'll send you an email in a month, see what I've accomplished.
Yeah, and let me know how it goes in February.
You said you've got a family vacation, right?
Yeah, February. I'll tell you how the discussions went.
I appreciate that. Thanks, man.
I have a really great conversation. I appreciate it.
Take care. Thank you.
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