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Dec. 1, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:20:14
AMAZING! "I Love My Baby, I HATED Being Seduced!" Freedomain Call In
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Hey Steph, I've been on a wild ride of self-healing, and for lack of better words, my own enlightenment.
I have within the last year of finding your show, so actually about two years, when I was thinking about it, a year and a half, quit hard opiates successfully, even though my mother began feeding me Vicodin and Xanax at age 11.
I have severed the sick, parasitic relationship I had with her I re-stabilized my marriage that was falling apart from my lies over drugs.
Finances are now stapling after me funneling all my husband's hard-earned money to drug dealers before I got sober.
Had a heart-to-heart with my dad.
Came clean about my drug use and about why everything fell apart with my parents' divorce and my mother's constant affairs.
How I felt.
And what would be needed to make amends and all that is happening.
Like he's doing all of those things to make amends.
I moved into a beautiful duplex after living in the ghetto in a gross house and town.
Got my son in a charter school rather than a public school by moving where we did in this new city.
My husband's life has changed immensely, even though he has never been a listener.
My changing has changed him in so many beautiful, wonderful ways.
I have a two and a half year old or one and a half year old with my husband who is thriving.
18 months of breastfeeding per your recommendation.
You have helped to change my life in countless other ways along with other teachers I have resonated with and my heart is starting to open again for the first time since I was a little girl.
I have attached a pic of my beautiful family.
My 10 year old was conceived when I was 18 with my high school long-term boyfriend Who ended up being a serial cheater?
We got married eight days before we had my eldest son because I wanted to do the right thing and I thought my ex could change.
He said he wanted to. When my son was a baby, six months old, we lived with my sister and her son.
She was a single mom and wanted to help our little family get on our feet.
She had a party one night and had a friend I'd known since childhood.
Her friend was flirting with my ex.
At the time, my husband. All night.
They were all intoxicated while I was sick in bed with my period and the baby.
I got up at 4 a.m.
to make the baby a bottle and noticed my ex hadn't come to bed.
I sobbed myself to sleep that night.
I walked to the kitchen to make a bottle.
To my left, I see in the darkness silhouettes of someone having sex from what it looked like.
I stepped a little closer and saw my husband's tattooed on his back as he was having sex with my sister's childhood friend.
I had the baby in my arms and literally had to walk over and kick him to get him off of her.
It was so traumatic.
I saw him pull out of her.
I don't know how I made it through that without getting violent.
I just took my baby outside with me and screamed and howled the most intense pain sound.
My mom lived across the street and heard me.
Everyone in my house was so intoxicated on alcohol and Xanax that I couldn't get anyone to care or wake up.
It was a living nightmare.
My sister didn't wake up till about 10 a.m.
that morning. My ex didn't care about what he did.
He was drunk and asked the woman he was fucking if he could go to her place so he could get the fuck away from this crazy bitch.
That was 2009.
I've taken care of my 10-year-old through every struggle.
We can discuss the in-between time if we talk.
My biggest concern now is that I've almost started feeling blocked from receiving and giving love to my son energetically.
I mean, I show it in my actions now that he's growing and looks so similar to his father.
God, even saying that makes me feel so horrible.
He deserves me to pour all my love in him.
He needs it after everything we've gone through.
I do show my love through everything I do, and I know my love for him is evident through my actions.
But what I'm talking about is that energy exchange, that heart-to-heart feeling of connection I once had with him and still feel with the baby.
Please help me and my son, Stephanie.
Well, that is a hell of a story.
I am so sorry for everything that you've gone through.
My gosh. I mean, oh my gosh.
I don't mean to laugh, but it is...
It's intense. It's intense.
And, you know, that howling pain of a new mom with the hormones and the bonding and the betrayal.
I understand that kind of feels like your insides are turning outside and being irradiated by like sky drop in horror or something like that.
So I really, really understand all of that.
And my gosh, what a terrible, awful...
Wretched situation to be in.
But you said he was a serial cheater, right?
The guy that you had the baby with when you were 18?
Yes. You know, I never caught him in the act, but there was things like, we're in high school too, you know, so I'd go to his house and the girl that I knew used to like him would be over there and he'd tell me he couldn't do anything because he was going to work or things like that, like catch him like that.
He came home from a party one night with his pants on backwards.
And said, oh, you know, I was at my friend's, we were drunk, so I put some pajama pants on, and when I put my pants back on, they're back.
Stuff like that.
Stuff that in hindsight, you're like, wow, how could I have believed any of that, right?
And then even I had even family years later tell me, oh, yeah, we all knew, like, we just didn't want to break your heart.
And it's like, oh, thanks. Wait, they knew before you had a kid, before you got married?
Well, he worked at Taco Bell with a lot of my family, and I guess he would flirt with all the girls there while we were together.
The baby was little before he cheated, and nobody told me.
Was he like a himbo?
Was he like a stud muffin? Was he like the local good-looking guy?
Or what magic did he have? He was very handsome and tall and my type, and he made me feel like the most beautiful thing.
And I grew up feeling pretty awkward because my mom...
And my red hair and freckles, I kind of blossomed in my teens, and to have him think I was so gorgeous, it was like, no.
I was always pining over guys.
I don't know, maybe it's my Irish blood, but to me, freckles and red hair, it's a significant plus.
But I know that's not the case for everyone.
Yeah, everyone says that now, but when you're a kid, it's not.
Right, right. So tell me a little about what happened to you in childhood.
I mean, this 11, like, there's got to be stuff that led up to that that's important, too.
Oh, yeah. I guess I can give you, like, a brief synopsis of, like...
Okay, my parents met.
My mom really wanted a boy, a baby boy.
They met and got pregnant after about a month.
My dad gave her a baby.
I ended up being a girl.
She wanted the boy so bad.
My nursery was blue and everything.
She had me and then they had my brother three years later, so she got her boy.
My dad has always been the affectionate one.
My mom didn't nurse me.
Anytime I tried to get affection, it was shooed away.
Very annoying to her.
I never got that motherly touch.
Even when she would comb my hair, it was like, God, what's wrong with your hair?
Little things like that.
I never got that tender love from my mom, but I got it from my dad.
My mom... She had affairs on my dad their entire marriage.
She was with this big, like, since my sister's 10 years older than me, and she had been having an affair with this big old married man, big fat guy who ran a chiropractic office, and she would bring me and my brother to the chiropractic office while my dad's at work, and she'd be in the office, and we could hear, you know, What's going on in there?
She ran around on my dad all the time.
You mean spinal adjustments?
Exactly. Special adjustments.
He would buy her gifts and my dad would just write it off as if it was her friend.
I can get out of that in a little bit.
The guy ended up dying with her in a hotel room, but that's the later story.
So where were they? She would take us to the office and my dad would work.
She was supposed to be a stay-at-home mom, but we would go to school and then go to the Boys and Girls Club till like 6 p.m.
We'd always be the ones waiting there when they're trying to close and the ladies in the office would be waiting, calling home.
She's nowhere to be found.
She'd go to casinos all the time.
We grew up pretty wealthy, but still, it doesn't matter when there's no real love there.
My dad was so broken from all this.
I think he felt it deep down.
Broken from what? From my mom.
I don't know. She was horrible.
The mind games and stuff she would do.
I don't know.
That's what I talked to my dad about.
How did you not know she's doing all this?
I remember she had an affair with the guy at Ace Hardware who owned Ace Hardware and she was fixing up his office.
My dad knew She was hanging out with these men, and I just didn't get how he didn't know.
But he told me he didn't have parents, and he wanted to have his kids have their parents, ultimately.
They got divorced, and it was right after 9-11.
I remember seventh grade.
And my mom had been gone for about two weeks.
She didn't tell anyone where she was.
My dad was just like a hermit.
He barely came out of his room.
And we're just like, where the hell is mom?
Like, we were all getting really anxious.
Oh, so you didn't know?
Like, you didn't know that she'd split?
No. Wow. No, no.
And she came back and she told my dad, I want you to move out today.
I'm getting a divorce.
She told us and then she wrangled us up and took us to a Denny's and my new stepdad was there with his kids ready to move in that night to our house.
He kicked my mom out.
He stayed in a rowdy hotel.
We lived in a small town. Wait, she kicked your dad out, you mean?
Yep, my dad out, yeah.
Okay, okay. And this new guy moved in that same night that she told us she was getting divorced and had us meet him at a Denny's and his kids.
And this is your new stepdad.
He's moving in. This is like hours after we found out they were getting divorced.
And how old were you then?
Eleven. So then this is why she put you on the drugs, right?
You were not happy with any of this, completely understandably.
Yeah, and she was taking them and she saw that it made me feel better and numbed me out.
So she would give me Vicodins and oh you want a sleep aid and it would be a Xanax and just like I got pneumonia, mononucleosis and whooping cough all within a couple years because my immune system was so ratted from stress.
I had gone to a mental hospital twice on 5150 holds for trying to like genuinely commit suicide and I just remember how cold she was during that time.
I'd be rolling in a ball, crying on the floor, and she'd be like, you're a psycho!
I'm taking you to the hospital!
Something is wrong with you!
This is in between 11 and 15.
Meanwhile, she's feeding me drugs the whole time, letting my 8th grade graduation, me having my friends over and drink wine coolers.
I'm running around doing whatever I wanted at any time of day, not going to school because I was sick.
You know, and it's like, I was the psycho.
Well, yeah, I mean, this sounds like the kind of mom where, you know, like her needs are front and center and anything or anyone who even remotely interferes with those needs is just an enemy that needs to be destroyed.
Like, you know, like if you're driving down the road...
And there's like a log on the road.
You get up and you just wrestle that log off the road.
And you don't care about the feelings of the log.
It's like, sorry, you're just in the way to my destination.
Like, get out, right? No emotion.
Like, I don't even know.
She had emotions when something hurt her, but that was it.
That was the only time I ever saw her get emotional.
Yeah, you're right. And how were things with the new stepdad and step...
You know, it's really weird now looking back.
I actually really ended up loving that man because he kind of protected me during that time.
He was very, very sweet and my dad literally lived next door.
He built like a shed add-on house type thing in the back of the neighbor's house that they were friends with before the divorce and like he never came out of there.
Like literally next door while my stepdad's in the house like using all my dad's stuff and like It was crazy.
I don't know how people around me were like, what the fuck?
My husband's the first person who was like, what the hell?
Honestly, I don't.
But given this story, I don't care if you swear.
I do not care at all.
I mean, feel free because you've got a lot to talk about here.
So your dad, you said your dad built this sort of shed out back at the neighbor's place.
And you said you just sort of half said like he didn't come out or was he not that involved?
No, I wouldn't see him for months.
Oh, so he was, I mean, it sounds like catastrophic depression, which, again, is completely understandable given the situation.
He had a come-to-Jesus moment, not where he was so, like, he collapsed, he sat on a construction site, and said, Lord, take me now, and he didn't, and that's when he kind of came back out of that.
But, yeah, um...
During all this time, I'm running around like crazy.
All my friends are getting drugs off my mom.
I'm doing ecstasy. Mushrooms at my house.
My mom was doing mushrooms.
I'd have 12 kids overall and mushrooms at my house.
It was a three-story house.
It was a party house during that time.
That was all just to cover all the pain, of course.
You're like the house of the rising sun over there.
Right? She'd take us to San Francisco to hate in Ashbury and let me run around while she and my stepdad went off to restaurants.
Oh, yeah. It was crazy.
It's been a lot to process all this myself.
Wow. That's wild.
Now, was your mom good-looking as well?
Yes. She's pretty.
She's not anymore.
My mom's definitely got her karma.
She's totally schizophrenic now.
She lives in a world where the CIA, the government's all after her.
She's bugged. I don't talk to her anymore because she's so delusional.
Drones follow her everywhere.
She has to be a victim now in her la-la land.
Well, it's something that, you know, this sort of combination of high charisma and low wisdom.
Yes. It may be a bit more of a woman thing.
I'm sort of going off my mom and your mom a little bit here.
But it seems like when women get a lot of attention when they're younger, They're good looking, then they have to invent that attention after they hit the wall.
In other words, you know what I mean?
We would be in the car, dude, and she'd have 70s rock and roll blasted.
Oh, that guy's checking me out.
Every guy, all over town, always like, brooming around in her car.
Just every guy's checking her out.
Every guy wants her.
And it's like, she was pretty up into her 40s, but still, I think she was exaggerating.
But now, yeah, she's lost that.
She's lost it all. It's crazy.
Wow. And how was that decline?
You said she started to lose her looks in her 40s, which is, you know, kind of understandable.
Then you start to look not pretty, but the old phrase is, well-preserved, you know, like jam or a cucumber or something like that.
I think all the years of Xanax, like, caught up with her because she aged so fast.
I mean, yeah.
And she gained some weight and she doesn't come out of her house and I mean, last time I saw her, she had scabs all over her.
She's trying to get microchips out.
And I'm like, I'm not talking to you guys.
I'm not talking to anybody on that side of the family.
Oh, she thought that there were microchips implanted and she was kind of like, dig them out?
Yep. And my stepdad, well, I don't even like calling him my stepdad.
This is the third husband since my dad.
Oh, not the guy who moved in from the Denny's thing, but the guy after that?
Yeah. My mom had the affair with the big old fat guy while she was still with the second husband.
He died in a hotel room from a heart attack with my mother in there.
This was the chiropractic guy, not the second husband?
Yeah. His wife had to come to the hotel and see that he was at the hotel with his pants down.
It was crazy. I'm like, that's karma in action right there.
Wow. So she really milked her looks and her sort of physical charisma and so on.
And is she still married to number three?
Yeah. He houses her.
He works all the time.
They're crazy, though.
They're both crazy.
Well, you'd have to be, right, to live with a woman who's digging imaginary microchips out of her body.
That's not a stable...
Yeah, it's not a stabilizing situation that any sane person would want to get involved in, right?
Exactly. I mean, I was still so messed up when I met my husband.
I fought him on disassociating with her, but now I'm like, wow.
So his perspective was, you know, a little bit of distance could be pretty good?
Yes, because she got to the point where she did this my whole life where she would shower me with gifts.
No love, just shower me with gifts so I would be on her side.
Yeah, she's bribing you with other people's money.
Yep, and the kids, my boys.
Oh, let me see the kids. And then my sister manipulating me, getting my address so my mom can mail these huge gifts to my kids and put a guilt trip on me.
And it's like, yeah, she still tries to do it.
Wow. And how long has it been since you've seen her?
Since my sister's wedding in May, but I didn't I just saw her because we were at the same place.
I didn't hang out with her.
And then before that, it was like October of 2018.
And I would only see her sporadically, but I was still using and she would still give me Xanax sometimes.
It was like such a toxic relationship.
I mean, enabling the things that are just destroying your life, right?
Yep. And then now that I'm finally clean and happy and sober, I'm the evil one to all my family.
And it's like, whatever. That right there is a perfect example of why I'm not hurting at all from not talking to you guys.
Well, I think quite the opposite, right?
I mean, it sounds like... Exactly.
I'm thriving. It would be, yeah, much better for you and your family, your marriage, your parenting, your kids, like the whole thing, right?
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, people who are crazy are like, for those of you like out there who are listening to this, if you don't have crazy people in your life, you really don't know what exhaustion is.
Exactly. Just always trying to please someone who's completely insane.
Like, you can't do it.
Yeah. Yeah, and all they do is manipulate.
And there's nothing honest. There's nothing genuine.
They're always trying to get something or stop something or prevent something or mask something or, you know, suppress something or censor something.
They never have anything but ulterior motives.
And it's really, really exhausting to try and figure all those out and navigate them and all that, right?
Exactly. And it makes you feel like a victim because you are being victimized.
But now I don't feel like a victim at all.
Now that I got away, I feel like a victor.
But when you're being manipulated like that, like you're saying, it just makes you feel like...
The other thing, too, is that crazy people often...
They're not exactly quiet about it, right?
In other words, they'll come in with their crazy, nutty worldviews, and they will really try to absorb you into their paranoia, their fantasies, like they're always trying to get you to move in to their crazy town.
Population one, let's see if we can increase that population by spreading this crazy and inviting people into this crazy and all that, and just resisting that gravity well.
To that black hole of madness, it's just exhausting.
I remember once when I was skiing, my skis fell off and I had to climb up the hill in ski boots and it was steep and it was icy and like it took forever.
And I just remember thinking, hey, still easier than lunch with mom.
Yes, seriously.
Oh, I feel like that all the time.
I'm like in pure bliss all the time now from having that weight lifted off me because I can see my life for the beautiful thing it is now.
I'm so glad that I've been able to keep myself together through all this.
So how did you find what it is that I do and what do you think drew you in and sort of helped you with this philosophy stuff?
Well, it was like I started listening to some Joe Rogan podcasts.
And from there, I think I saw Jordan Peterson, and then to Jordan Peterson, saw you, and got into your stuff.
Just like different, you know, different people.
I used to be like Miss Conspiracy Theorist in 2012, and I remember hearing about you through Alex Jones, but...
Like, I didn't really start listening until I started getting curious about what the hell was going on in my life and why I was the way I was and why I couldn't seem to put drugs down, even though it's what I wanted more than anything.
I just got a little deeper and deeper and deeper.
Right. And was there a sort of particular show that drew you in?
I mean, I'm asking this, it sounds like a marketing question, which it's not.
I mean, was there a particular show or sort of style of show that drew you into this one?
The effects of single motherhood onto children and me hearing that and all the shit my son went through and the different boyfriends that I had were pieces of garbage until I met my husband.
And then from there, just calling shows and hearing you give the most clarifying advice.
Sometimes it sounds like you're speaking to the people listening, too.
It resonates.
Certain things. A lot.
It really just makes me see how un-okay everything was.
To denormalize it, right?
You kind of need someone to bungee in and say, like, this ain't normal.
This ain't even close to normal.
Exactly. And you're not going to have, if your family, like I'm thinking back to how you were saying that your family worked at Taco Bell with your first deadbeat cheatbot husband and didn't tell you anything.
Oh, we didn't want to hurt you. It's like, come on.
So it's almost like there are people in your life, it's like crazy is normal.
Dysfunction is normal. And so...
It's sort of like, you know, you don't call up someone and say, hey, is gravity still working today or are we off that now?
And it's like, no, gravity is kind of like a constant, right?
And craziness is kind of like a constant.
I just learned to cope. My life was just coping.
And you... You know, like, you don't try and get rid of crazy anymore than you try and get rid of gravity.
You know, like, well, I could lose weight or I could just dial down gravity.
It's like, no, you don't really have that second option.
And that's, I think, the real tragedy of that kind of...
And I think that the value of this kind of show and the experts that I bring on the conversations I have is it kind of bungees down and says, like, flicks on a light and says, A, this is crazy, and B, you don't have to live like this.
Exactly. You don't have to live like this part is so key.
Hearing people who have changed their lives and knowing.
And I've always known deep within.
My dad's always told me, you have a compass inside you and you know when something's wrong or right.
And I know that's why I was so depressed because I knew everything was so wrong.
And now that I know I'm doing right, it's so rewarding.
And I want people to hear that.
You do the work and you get your life together.
It's the most rewarding thing.
Ever. It's like putting on new glasses and seeing the world from a different perspective because I know what it feels like to think that you're doomed to hell and you don't have to be.
Right. Well, and that probably was what was going on in your sort of early to mid-teens.
Because that's the time where you have enough of a sense of the future that you can see years down the road, but you don't have enough of a sense of willpower or enough choice or freedom to think that you can change your course.
So I think that the suicidality, the self-destruction that comes in in those years is because you're truly getting a sense that, Jesus, this could be the rest of my damn life.
Exactly. That was the most, yeah, that's been, yeah.
And then having those things happen.
And I almost feel like I attracted a cheater because of my mother, of course.
And I resonated with my dad as the good parent.
Like you say, you resonate with one good parent, bad parent.
And I took on his look past it mentality and accepted that because I didn't think I deserved better.
Right, right. So, what happened with your drug use?
And, I mean, of course, the people who are listening to this who are having issues that way, that's the biggest question, is what happened that had you able to let that go?
Well, I specifically remember, like, we were hemorrhaging money and, like, We had to borrow money from his grandmother from rent.
And he doesn't know what's going on.
He's like, I'm working so hard.
Like, I don't get this because he let me take care of the money.
And he was so stressed and we were not close.
And he's the best thing. Like, I knew if I fucked this up, like, I didn't know if I was going to have another chance.
And I remember just doing the dishes and sobbing.
And like, this is not me.
These people I'm associating with to get these drugs.
This is not me.
These people are slimy, and I have children, and I have a brighter future ahead of me.
This is not me. I'm better than this.
And that realization and knowing, like, oh, my God, he's never going to trust me if I don't tell him soon and we don't get this, like, it will not be repairable if I don't come clean to him.
So about a year in, I'm just...
I told him. I said, I need...
Well, there's this...
It's called Suboxone.
It's a replacement therapy.
So you take it. It has the drug naloxone in it and it blocks out any opiates.
So if you took an opiate with this naloxone in your system, you wouldn't feel it.
You could do a deadly dose of heroin and it wouldn't even affect you at all.
And you take it daily and it has a little bit of an opiate in it just to keep you...
Since you've been firing those opiate receptors so long, it just kind of...
The way my doctor described it is you're dimming the lights instead of turning them all the way on or all the way off.
You're dimming the receptors.
So I got on that, and that's when my brain really started to get level.
I didn't have that drug haze anymore.
And being on that...
And what was that drug haze like? It was just...
Because you're so wrapped up in getting more, it's like that's all it is.
There's things in between, but like all life is, is okay, do I have enough now?
And will I have enough later?
How much money do we have?
Where can I move this money over here to get this?
If I can get a front here and I, you know, it's a constant game of like moving money around and hiding and sneaking and that's like You know, everything else is secondary.
Yeah, and it just sort of reminded me how we were talking about being around crazy people is exhausting.
And of course, this kind of expensive, dangerous drug habit is also exhausting because it's like when your mom's around, that's all you can focus on.
It's the same thing with the drugs. Exactly.
And at that time, you know, I was a single mom.
I met my husband, but he was working.
I didn't, you know, I wasn't a stay-at-home mom yet until I got pregnant.
So I was working 50 hours a week at a Shitty retail store, the craziest hours, till 3 in the morning here, going at 5 in the morning here, going 9 to...
But what did you do with your son at that time?
My next-door neighbors watched him for $100 every two weeks, and I hate it because they were not good people.
But it was like, daycare is impossible, and I had to work.
Daycare was too expensive compared to that, right?
My son stayed home with him after that in the evenings.
So it would be just from after school for a couple hours.
Thank God. And did the child's father?
He was a flake up until about a year and a half ago where he would go months and months without seeing him go a year here or go months and months here.
But he always had a relationship just like not a good one obviously but he always kind of just stuck around.
But now He's married, and I've known my son's stepmom over there for like seven years, and they have a daughter, and they seem pretty stable now.
I hope he learned his lesson, and they have him a lot, like every other weekend.
As much as I let him go up there now, they have him, and he has his own room and stuff.
It took a lot of me fighting for him to get that, but I'm glad I did, because he seems really happy.
Hmm. And do you know what changed in his life?
I mean, other than maybe the love of a good woman, or was there anything else?
I just think it was seeing what he did to me and Luke, and not wanting to do that to his daughter and his new wife.
I don't know. Do you think he's over the cheating?
Did he outgrow that?
I don't know. I honestly...
I mean, he was renting a room with this girl's sister, and they lived there alone.
I don't know. I don't know.
I've... I know he hit on me like a couple years ago when he was supposed to be with her, but...
Well, the good news is you don't really have to care anymore, right?
Other than maybe the stability for your son.
Exactly. That's all I care about.
Yeah, exactly.
And they live in a good area and stuff, too.
And we got in a good area.
And where did you meet your husband and how did that develop?
Because, I mean, from what you're telling me, that's kind of new compared to what went on before.
Oh yeah, he's the key, I feel like, to make me feel worthy for once and seeing how abnormal this is because he has a good family.
I actually took one of my co-workers out for drinks.
He had just turned 21.
I'm about 30.
He had the wrong idea thinking I was on a date with him, but I was trying to, you know, relieve his thoughts of that.
And I'm like, I'm going to show you how to pick up chicks.
Look, check this out. And I saw Brandon.
I saw my husband and I just, he was the cute one out of the bunch.
And I walked up to him and I said, Hey, do you want to take my number?
And he's like, uh, aren't you with that guy over there?
I was like, no, no, no, no.
He's a kid. I'm just helping him.
Learn how to Mac. We hung out all night and just talked and had fun.
I didn't sleep with him for a while, which was new.
I held out and he just since that day just worshiped the ground I'm locked on.
The importance of Luke, respecting him and loving him was so important to him.
He asked for his permission to marry me and He always said, you know, I want his approval just as much as I want yours.
Because his mother got pregnant with him by a really abusive, shitty guy.
But his dad, who we call his dad, not his biological, but raised him his whole life, met his mom when she was pregnant.
And he protected her from the guy.
And they went on to...
They're still married now, today.
And this is in 88 when this happened.
And he's... I've been with her ever since and raised Brandon as his own.
I think that's why it was so important for him to make sure Luke was treated right.
He knew how bad my ex was.
My ex was so mean to Luke.
He didn't beat him, but he's just mean.
I always made him feel stupid.
Brandon's just always Taking every precaution to make sure.
He took him to the movies alone.
They went on a boy's date.
There's little projects with him.
He taught him how to ride a bike.
All in these couple years.
All the stuff he hasn't had from his dad, you know?
Right. And his biological dad, you said he's over every second weekend.
Is it better now?
Is it more solid?
Yes, it is.
I check in with Luke often.
He needed the stability.
And now, you know, they do family things together.
He's included in everything.
And that's what he needed. You know, before it was the little sister's room and then the playroom.
And Luke slept in the living room.
And it's like, no, I told him, you need to give him a room.
I'm not going to send him over there to see your daughter's room full of toys.
And, you know, him not have a place and always felt out of place.
And he did. He gave him a room and went and took him and got him furniture.
My son's very creative.
He likes to make puppets and clay statues.
And I've always really pushed that on him in a bad way, but encouraged it, I should say.
And got him a desk for that and all that.
I hope I got through to him a little bit.
Wow, sounds like everyone kind of fell out of a plane and landed in a haystack, you know, or like a nice soft pillowy side of a mountain with snow and stuff.
Yes. And how long...
So you went to the doctor, you said, I want to get clean, he gave you this stuff, and how challenging was that transition?
That was... It was fairly easy because I wanted to do it so bad.
What was hard is that I had drug dealers living around us.
And, like, we lived in townhouses.
So next door was a drug dealer, my main one.
And then two doors down is my secondary.
And then a couple buildings in the front is, you know, this one.
And they're trying to offer me everything under the sun.
And, like, Brandon had to protect us.
It was the ghetto. Like, I mean...
Rough California city, like, bad.
And we got out of there, but it's the only place I could afford with, you know, Luke at the time.
Well, that's why you said this almost like this holy halo surrounded the word duplex that you mentioned earlier.
It struck me like duplex, a.k.a.
heaven. Yes. It's such, yeah, it's huge to have a house and have a garage and a yard for the kids.
It's just, it's crazy.
It's so much nicer.
We've got good neighbors.
All right. So what can I most help you with today?
Sorry, go ahead. Sorry, so what can I most help you with today?
I... Well, like I said, Luke, he really...
He's very lovey-dovey.
You know when a kid says, I love you, and it's like you can tell they want you to tell them you love them back.
That's why they're saying it.
Or if you've had a partner who does that, he'll come up to me, you know, and he wants...
Affection. Physical affection.
And I don't, I hate it.
I don't, I don't hate it when he does it.
But I hate the way I feel.
It's like, I almost feel afraid.
And I can't explain it.
That's why I wanted to talk to you because, you know, I've talked to my husband about it.
And I don't want people getting the wrong idea like I don't love my son because he's my life.
Of course. Listen, you wouldn't be calling in if you didn't love your son.
I fully accept that.
I'm sure everyone else will too.
But sorry, go ahead. I just want to connect my heart to him again and feel like I can open my heart and he can feel safe because I know he can feel it.
I don't know. I don't know if he can feel it, but I feel it.
I feel uncomfortable.
And it's hard for me to, like, sit with him and spend a lot of time being close with him.
And I just worry if it's, like, some deep-seated thing with what his dad did and that trauma.
Or, like, I don't know.
I don't know. It's, like, the last thing because I've been able to figure all these other things out.
And, you know, it's been hard work, but I'm doing it.
Yeah. This is the last thing I really feel like needs to be fixed.
Right, right, okay.
Okay, so is him asking for the I love you from you, is that relatively new or has that been going on for a while?
No, it's, he's always been like that.
It's just, I was, when he was littler, it felt like it does with the baby, just like completely natural.
And it's just started feeling unnatural like the last couple of years.
I don't know if he's because he's growing.
I do have concerns.
And, you know, we'll put the judgment of judgment aside for now.
But do you think that you might have concerns that his what might be called neediness or vulnerability and so on is actually kind of a danger for him?
In other words, that he's going to fall for some girl who love bombs him and that there's a risk involved in that?
Maybe.
I... I don't know what it is.
It's almost like I'm anticipating him to hurt me.
And that sounds so wrong, but that's the only way I can explain it.
No, no, don't worry about the judgment thing.
I mean, the judgment is not helpful.
We're exploring, you know, like if you're exploring a cave, you don't judge everything you see.
You just say, hey, I wonder what's around the corner, right?
Okay, so you feel that it might be dangerous to you if you...
You sort of tell him you love him, and of course I assume that you do from time to time, but it doesn't seem to solve the problem, is that right?
It doesn't seem to fill the need?
Exactly. And how long is it between these requests from him or reassurance that he needs?
Is it like every day or every week?
It is every day, yes.
That he's wanting affection.
And I do let him give me affection, but I just want it to feel good.
I want...
Because I want him to feel that it feels good for me.
I don't want him to feel that I'm stiffening or like...
You know, I tried to get back together with his dad when he was, like, three.
And I couldn't touch his dad, and his dad couldn't touch me without me feeling physically ill in my stomach.
And I'm like, this is never going to work.
And he wouldn't be patient. He wanted me to sleep with him right then.
And it's not the same when Luke tries to touch me, but it is like, ah, like, it's going to hurt.
Like, I don't... Okay, so let's get back to it's going to hurt.
It's going to hurt how? What's it going to hurt?
I don't know. It doesn't really play out further than that.
It's just...
I wish I could describe it better.
No, it's alright. We'll get there.
No problem. I mean, if it was easy, you wouldn't be calling, right?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Okay. Okay. Alright.
But obviously, it's not like there's a physical danger.
It's something emotional, right?
Yes. It's for sure emotional.
Okay. So here's what I would like you to do, if you'd be so kind.
Here's what I would like you to do.
I would like you to pretend that you are your son, Luke, and describe to me His first five years.
Like, if somebody was saying, oh, so, Luke, you know, I mean, if I did calls with kids or whatever, which I don't, but if I did, and I said, oh, Luke, so tell me what was your first five years of life like?
and just pretend that you're him and what would he say?
God, why is that so hard to like...
Because it's painful.
I can tell... Well, my mommy and daddy were divorced because you know that sometimes when you're too young, things just can't work out.
So I saw I was with my mommy a lot and then I would stay with my daddy and I would see my grandma Shelly and then my grandma Shelly passed away and I... My daddy met Ashley and I would see them sometimes and I spent a lot of time with my mommy going from different houses.
We had one time when we were we had an apartment and we lived in the front room of the apartment and we had a lot of fun but it was really small and I went to Kindergarten with my mom and everybody thought I was the baby and everybody says how sweet I am and I would see my grandma Nana a lot,
which is my mom, but I can't see my grandma Nana anymore.
She would take me for rides on the golf cart and And me and mommy would go on the train a lot to go downtown and go on adventures.
And I really feel like those are the things he remembers.
Yeah, okay. And then I would say to him, I would just keep that going, and I would say, so Luke, listen, that's all really interesting, and I'm glad that you told me, and it gives me a sense of sort of what you did.
But how did you feel when you were little?
Were you happy? Did you wake up happy?
Were you enthusiastic? Were you sad?
Were you worried? What was it like in your heart when you were very little?
I was happy, but I was sad that my mommy and my daddy couldn't be together.
I understand that sometimes...
Mommies and daddies, they're too young and they don't understand.
So, you know, sometimes they're meant to be with other people.
But I do wish my mommy and my daddy could have been together.
And I do wish that...
I do wish that we lived in...
In a better place when I was little like we do now because it was kind of scary and but things are getting better now and I did feel happy most of the time.
Sometimes I would just get sad when I miss my daddy or I miss my mommy when I'm not with them.
I appreciate that, and I can totally understand why you feel that way.
So could you do me just a tiny favor?
Tell me about the saddest day that you remember, what happened and what you felt.
Now, it doesn't have to be like the absolute saddest day, like that some whole bunch of scientists would discover if they looked at everything that happened in your life.
Just something that pops to mind.
I hadn't seen my daddy in nine months and I was waiting for my daddy with my mommy and it was raining and mommy was calling daddy a lot because he was supposed to be coming and daddy couldn't answer and then me and mommy went back inside the house and we waited for daddy to call a long time that day and then we fell asleep and daddy called the next morning and he said that he couldn't Couldn't it come now?
I'd have to see him in a few months.
Right. Now, I'm so sorry.
I'm really sorry, Luke, that that happened to you.
That's really sad.
And, you know, I grew up without a dad, too.
And, you know, when your dad doesn't see you for a long time, you have to come up with some sort of reason why.
Right? And even if people tell you a reason, sometimes you have like a reason that's your own, almost like a secret reason, like you don't tell anyone.
Did you ever sort of think, well, why did my daddy show up?
Or why didn't I see my dad for nine months?
Did you ever think sort of like, why?
I think he takes care of my sister.
Well, yeah, but I mean, a lot of dads have kids and still see their older kids, or a lot of dads have more than one kid, and it's not like they spend only time with one kid and never with the other.
Do you think that there could be any other reason why he didn't see you other than he had a new kid?
Maybe because he didn't like my mom that much, too.
But that's not really fair on you, right?
No. If he's not getting along with your mom, it's not really fair on you.
To not see you, right?
Because that's, in a sense, like almost punishing you for stuff that happened with your mom, right?
It's not you, right?
Right. Now, let me ask you this.
So, when you're with your mom and you tell her that you love her, what's the feeling that goes on behind that?
What's going on in your heart when you ask that?
I want her to know I love her, but I also want to know that she loves me and isn't thinking of me.
Is thinking of me.
And do you think that...
So what happens if you don't ask that?
Like, okay, we all have this disaster scenario, right?
So when I was a kid, I guess about your age, I climbed a tree.
And at one point, I couldn't climb up because it was too high and there was a branch like way above me.
And I couldn't climb down because I've kind of inched my way up and my worst case scenario was you fall.
You bounce on every stick going down and it's going to be every tree branch or whatever.
So we all have sometimes a disaster scenario, the worst possible thing that can happen.
So if you don't tell your mom that you love her every day or you don't hear it back, what's your fear?
What is the worst thing that could happen if that doesn't happen?
Well, maybe she'll forget.
it Forget what? Maybe she'll forget that I need her to tell me she loves me.
Right.
But why do you need her to tell you every day?
Because she's always the only one who tells me she loves me.
And it feels really good to hear it.
Do you think that...
Do you think that we can judge whether someone loves us based upon what they do rather than what they say?
Yes. Because, you know, anyone, like some stranger on the street could come up and say, I love you, you know, but that doesn't really...
Right? If the things are being done that show the love, and listen, there's nothing wrong with saying to people, and I think it's important that you do say to people you love them, and say that they love you and back, and so I think that's a nice thing to say, but I guess, do you think there's something missing in what your mom does, that you kind of need to hear the words because you're not feeling what she does, if that makes sense?
Yeah, I would like to spend more alone time or more time with my mom, maybe cuddling and watching movies or anything, making clay or anything she'd want to do with me.
I probably would like that a lot.
And how much time, sorry to interrupt you, how much time a day do you get to spend doing that kind of stuff with your mom, maybe just sort of one-on-one?
Well... Every day we do sit, me and mom and the baby, and we do watch TV together, and she sits on the couch and me and Adam play, and she hangs out with us, but she doesn't ever cuddle with me, really. Maybe not for, like, maybe a couple years.
I don't know.
Right. And, I mean, like all kids...
You like to be cuddled, right?
Yes. And trust me, that doesn't change when you become an adult, right?
If you have the right part and the right person, hugging a cuddle is always a welcome thing.
It's always a good thing. She always wants to cuddle Brandon, so I guess you're right.
Right. Right.
Now, you know, one of the things that's a challenge with moms and dads who divorce is, like, you're kind of half your dad and half your mom, right?
Right. Do you think that maybe sometimes the dislike...
Like, you remember how you said that your dad didn't see you sometimes because he didn't like your mom?
Which I said was unfair, but, you know, it happens.
There's lots of unfair things in the world that still happen.
That's why we have the word, right?
If it never happened, we wouldn't have the word, I guess.
Or it'd be a word for something that never happened, like unicorn or something.
But with you, like, being half your dad, and I don't know how much you look like your dad or how much of your dad's personality you have...
Everybody says I look just like my dad.
Oh, you look just like your dad, right?
And now what's happening?
You're 10, right? Yep.
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so now what's happening?
Okay, so you probably didn't look a huge amount like your dad when you were a baby, right?
Because I assume your dad isn't like a big, bald guy with a tiny body, giant eyes and no teeth, right?
Right. Right.
So now, what's happening is, as you start going from boy to man, do you think you're looking, A, more like your dad, or B, less like your dad?
Of course, more like my dad.
Right. Right.
So if you feel like you're growing into becoming like your dad, I don't mean like his personality.
I mean, listen, there'll be some parts of your personality that are like your dad, but none of his bad habits pass down to you, right?
So if he has a bad habit, I don't know, let's say he was a smoker or something like that.
I don't know, right?
But none of his bad habits would pass down to you, and that's probably what hurt your mom the most.
But some of his personality traits, maybe he's got a good sense of humor, right?
Maybe he's really good at three-dimensional puzzles, maybe.
Like it could be any number of things, right?
Maybe he's really good at video games.
But as you grow more into looking like your dad and maybe even acting a little bit like him – And again, I'm not talking about the bad habits, just some of his personality, right?
Then I wonder if your mom, and this is not something that she might be that aware of, but I wonder if your mom is like, ooh...
Ooh, he's looking a lot more like the guy I had a lot of trouble with a long time ago.
Now, that's not fair, but again, lots of unfair things happen in the world.
That's why we have the word. But I wonder if you feel like she might be pulling away a little bit because you remind her of your dad.
And then you're like, I love you, right?
And you're saying, it's me here.
It's me, not your ex-husband.
Right. Yeah.
Probably right. Do you think that your relationship with your mom is better now than it was, say, a couple of years ago?
Yes. And what's better?
My mom is so happy now.
She's so happy and the house is always clean and she's always cooking and baking and she's singing and dancing and...
She loves my school and she always comes, helps my class.
And we go out and do more fun stuff like walks and stuff like that.
I just wish I had more cuddles.
And I think you're trying to build that bridge to your mom, right?
Yeah. Like, you know how we build bridges if we've got to get across a river or like a canyon or something like that?
You can build a big bridge, right?
And I think when you say to your mom, I love you and you want her to say it back, I think you're kind of trying to build a bridge over maybe a gap that you feel, if that makes any sense.
Like, you know how you can use Lego, you're going to build a bridge over something, a little thing that you can make on the ground, like a little road or something like that.
And I think you might be trying to build a bridge to your mom With that.
Yeah. And so you say, okay, I'll build...
Because the way they normally build bridges, right?
They don't build it from all the way...
They build it from both sides and then you meet in the middle, right?
That's how you build a bridge, right?
But you can't build a bridge all the way from one side to the other.
It just falls down, right? It's too heavy.
So you build on either side.
You meet in the middle. Now, I think with you, you're saying, okay, I'm going to build a little bit of a bridge towards mom saying I love you.
And then every time she says I love you back, then we...
She's building...
I can see her building on her side of...
The canyon or the river or whatever.
And, you know, I guess my hope is that we meet in the middle.
But I wonder if you feel like you're building the bridge on your side, but it's not happening as much as you'd like on your mom's side, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it does make sense.
Right. Yes.
Wow. That's crazy.
Did you want to stop for here?
I think that's, I mean, I think that's a great perspective.
No, that was a great epiphany.
Yeah, so tell me what you think about our chat.
First of all, great job. I don't have to fix it all in a day.
Everyone's an actor. It's something that's very true.
Anyway, go on. I don't have to fix it all right now, and it's understandable from what I've gone through that there are things coming up.
But as long as I keep trying to meet him in the middle and keep building these bridges with him, we're going to be okay.
Well, I think that's true.
But do you think that there's any truth in the possibility that as he begins to look more and more like your ex, that there's a bit of a...
Almost like a reptile brain part of you that's like, ooh, danger.
It has to be what it is, because it's such a similar film, like something burned in my brain, you know?
Right. Now, he also, and I don't know what you should tell him or not, because I don't know, but I'm just telling you his knowledge gap is pretty significant, because you have fed him a lot of hot nonsense about why you split up with the ex.
Yep. Right? Because, oh, sometimes when you're too young, come on.
I mean, that's not the issue.
Yeah. Right? And this, again, I don't know what the right answer to this is, but I certainly sympathize with how difficult this is, which is, sorry, let me just finish this thought, which is, you don't want him to look at his dad badly.
Yeah. Right? And you don't want him to look at you badly.
Right? Exactly.
I don't want him to feel like I'm trying to make his dad look bad.
No, no, no, no. I'm not talking about that.
What I'm talking about is you chose the dad.
Yeah. Yes.
Right? So, you know, I mean, let me ask you to do this.
I'll pretend to be him, to be Luke, right?
Now, if you could suffer no negative repercussions whatsoever, I mean, just let's go into fantasy land completely here for a sec.
If you knew that you'd suffer no negative repercussions whatsoever for telling Luke the truth about what happened with his dad, what would you say to him?
How would you explain that?
Because right now he's missing key information, which is why...
He keeps asking you. Because he thinks, oh, it's just because you were too young.
There's nothing wrong with dad. There's nothing wrong with you.
It just happened to be a function of youth, which is not true.
So he doesn't have an understanding as to why you might be distant from him as he looks more like his dad.
So what would you say to him about what happened with the marriage if you could be perfectly honest and there would be no negative repercussions?
Well, you know, honey, your dad and I... No, no, it's a big deal.
It's not okay. No, you don't want to minimize that because you don't want him to end up with a cheat or two thinking, oh, it's not that big a deal, right?
See, that's my fear too.
I know, I know.
So this is why I said no negative consequences, right?
Yeah. And not like shaping it for, well, you know, it really wasn't.
Because, I mean, this tore you up, right?
Yeah. I mean, you're out there howling.
I know this is after you got married, but you're like howling at the moon in existential agony.
So that's sort of the core of where this distance from your son might be.
I don't know, might be, right? So again, just tell him the story of what happened to you and his dad.
And try not to whitewash or minimize, if that makes sense.
And again, this is just fantasy land of no negative consequences.
I would not suggest doing this in the real world with your son, actually, but let's give it a shot.
So something that would make sense to him and would give him wisdom.
Well, let's start here.
You know how your grandma and Nana...
I told you your grandma and Nana's got screws loose.
And when I was little...
That she was not faithful to Grandpa Rowan.
You know that. We've talked about that.
And I watched that a lot when I was growing up.
And I loved my daddy a lot.
Just like you love your daddy and you love me.
And I thought my daddy was such a good man for a while for being able to love my mom through that.
And now I know that wasn't right.
But when I met your dad, I thought I could love him enough.
To be enough for him.
And your dad, that wasn't right.
And that's not how we get love.
Your dad cheated on me a lot, son.
You know, I caught him when I was pregnant with you at a party with girls on his lap.
Came home with his pants on backwards one night, you know.
He had girls over and tell me he didn't, you know.
I don't know if your dad ever really was faithful to me, to be honest.
He had his own problems from his parents.
I'm not trying to call him an evil guy, but at that time, just like I've done, those were evil things to do.
They weren't okay. I actually broke up with your dad.
Now, hang on. I'm sorry to interrupt you because you've got this emotion back there, right?
Yeah. Should I start over?
No, no. Just keep going with the unfaithfulness.
Okay. I was breaking up with your dad because of all these things and I knew it wasn't right for us to be together.
It didn't feel right anymore at all.
But your dad seduced me and I shouldn't have allowed it, but I did.
I'm so glad at the same time because now we have you.
But we made you that day and I was actually supposed to be free from your death that day.
I ended up getting pregnant with you and I didn't want that to be your daddy.
I loved you.
So like, already I knew right away how much I loved you.
I went and got baby books and everything.
I stopped smoking the day I found out I was pregnant.
But it was so hard because I knew that if daddy wasn't going to be right, he wouldn't act right.
I knew it, but I didn't know what to do.
Because you were coming and I wanted you to have your daddy and I wanted to believe him.
I wanted to believe that once we got married he could change.
Because of you.
I thought that we'd be able to make a change and I understand that it's not your responsibility and I don't ever want you to feel like it's your fault.
So you wanted me to fix daddy, in a way.
Yeah, I thought I could, just because I wanted you to have a daddy.
So we got married right before you were born, and it still never was right, baby.
We fought a lot, and he put me through a lot when I was pregnant with you.
Like what? Huh?
What did he put you through?
One night, I drove to like three different addresses he gave me because he kept giving me the wrong ones of where he was at so I could pick him up and finally one of his friends gave me the real address and I'm seven and a half months pregnant big and I went in and I saw your daddy with two women on his lap and he wouldn't come with me.
He told me to leave.
And I still forgave him.
It's really hard for me to think about all the things I forgave.
But at the same time, I know everything happens for a reason.
And I'm so glad I had you out of it.
And I know you have You have inspired me to be a better woman.
And I know that. You always have.
And you've always given me a reason to be worth something.
Especially until I met Brandon.
Because you give unconditional love.
And I... I've always loved you so much.
You've always been my reason for everything.
And I'm so glad that you have the life you have now.
Because you deserve it so much.
And I really do hope your daddy has changed.
And maybe he could.
You know? I want that for you.
I don't... I want...
You to have your dad stable and have him stable.
But I just want to be honest with you about that because maybe you can understand a little better of why mommy still has some pain.
I do. And why are you going to have to bear with me a little bit?
But I promise I'm going to try my best.
Hang on. And listen, Mom, I appreciate you telling me this.
I really do. It's incredibly brave.
But I need to know other things about me.
And I know I'm not taking it personally because it's not my fault.
It's not your fault. It's not Dad's fault.
But other things about me that remind you of him.
Yeah. Like what?
You look just like him and you draw stuff for me and you give it to me and that's always what he did.
Make up with me.
And you're such a good artist like him.
And you're funny.
You're funny like him, too.
And you love Nutter Butters just like him, even though I hate him.
What else? Sometimes when you get really upset, baby, I see you shut down.
Like your dad would.
I see you shut down.
Well, it's going to get worse, isn't it?
I mean, wait till I start getting really interested in girls.
Oh, no! Right.
Right. I don't know what else.
That's really the main things.
And then the fact that I still have to see his dad all the time because I love him.
I wish I never had to see him again in my life, of course.
Right. Well, and the dad still came on to you, as you said, a couple years ago, right?
Huh? You said that his dad came on to you a couple years ago, right?
Yep, when I first met my husband.
How are you feeling as we talk about this?
Because that was very passionate and I respect that.
That's very powerful, very honest.
But how are you doing as we talk about this?
I'm doing better. I feel good.
Like it opens up something, right?
Because this passion was between you and your son, I believe.
Like this emotion was between you and your son because you don't want to give your son a hug and then find yourself bursting into tears, right?
Right. I love him so much.
I believe you.
I never really thought about the fact that, like, how much I regretted that I got pregnant that day I was supposed to break up with him and how it felt knowing, fuck, he's going to be his dad.
I never have thought about that.
Right. And all of that is down there in you, because that's a hell of a thing to feel, right?
And both incredible love and a sense that your son trapped you with this guy for 20 years or whatever, right?
So that's a heck of a complicated set of feelings, right?
This feeling that this child, who almost saved your life in a way, Yeah.
Was conceived in a way that entrapped you with a real son of a bitch for like 20 years, right?
Yeah. You are not the only parent to feel this.
I guarantee you.
I guarantee you.
You are not the only parent to feel this.
That this kind of ambivalence around the child who saved my life and doomed me to a disastrous marriage.
Oh my God. You are not alone in feeling that.
And it's a perfectly understandable, rational relationship.
Acceptable feeling to me. Because you do love him.
And yet, if you'd had the choice at the time, you wouldn't have had him.
That's complicated. And that's perfectly human.
Yeah. It's crazy.
I just never thought of that part.
But I think I was always kind of too afraid to think about it because I was afraid of what I'd find in my own head.
I don't know. Thank you so much.
Now, this, I think, is what your son is trying to build a bridge, right?
This is what he's sensing deep down.
Listen, kids are geniuses.
Like, you and I, we have this whole big adult life that we have to...
We've got taxes, we've got work, we've got relatives, we've got bills to pay.
But kids, it's like school and home, school and home, school and home.
Friends and family, friends and family.
That's all they focus on.
And the good news is...
Pulse on everything, like the emotions of me.
He's always got his pulse on it.
Well, that's his job, right?
His job is to make sure he's close to you, right?
And so one of the things that is coming up, I think, out of you getting off drugs is stronger feelings, right?
Because that's why I asked you very early on about the haze.
We were talking about the drug haze, right?
Yes. So now you're getting a lot of vivid feelings because a lot of drug use is self-medicating for unpleasant feelings, in my obviously amateur opinion.
That's the way that I see it.
So as you get off the drugs, your feelings are becoming stronger and the ambivalence that the drugs were masking is coming out.
And I think your son, and what a brilliant boy, like what a brilliant boy to sense this and to say our connection is Is not what it was.
But his connection before was with the you who was subduing this ambivalence with drugs.
Yes. Yes.
Plus, he was younger, so he wouldn't get the sophisticated way of looking at it.
But deep down, he's like, I'm glad mom's off drugs.
I'm glad she's off drugs. She's singing.
She's happy. She's cooking.
She's baking. The house is clean.
It's beautiful.
But, but, but.
There's also this ambivalence that's coming up too, which is very painful.
And again, I completely and totally understand what it is and why it would be painful.
And I understand both sides of it.
You're incredibly happy that he's here.
And you bitterly regret how it trapped you with this guy.
Yep.
Exactly.
That's so crazy.
It makes a lot more sense.
It makes me feel like I can be easier on myself too.
Well, and.
Thank you.
And, and.
The problem is, well, the great, it's a great solution here is that if he, and this is why I sort of went back to like, oh, soon I'm going to be, you know, attracted to girls or whatever.
Yeah. Because what's going to happen is if he feels a lack of connection with you, he's going to seek it in romantic relationships.
Oh my god, yes.
And then, you know, and this is probably, you know, without wanting to give you, you know, a half an ounce of sympathy for your ex.
Your ex didn't have a connection with his mother, I would virtually guarantee it, and therefore he sought it.
Yeah, he sought it in these trashy hookups, right?
Can I get a woman to accept me?
Yeah, I never thought of that.
That's crazy.
And so the best way to shield your son from that, right, is, I mean, the best way to push him into that is to, in a sense, push him away, not because of him, but because of your own complicated feelings about him and his history and your history and the dad and all that. but because of your own complicated feelings about him and But if you, and I know that you will, right?
You can connect with him, then that connection will be what shields him from promiscuity.
Yes, and that is what I do worry about that.
Thank you. Well, plus, I'm sure he's a good-looking guy.
I mean, you've got a good-looking family on your hands there, and so if he's a good-looking guy and he's hungry for a female connection, it's, you know, it's a bad combo.
A thousand percent. It's so important to find out now.
I'm so glad that I felt the urge to contact, you know, and Well, you moved up a little in the queue, because I did, and I'm sorry for the people who got pushed, but this was, I did get a sense of real urgency out of this.
Thank you so much.
Now, here's the question, and I don't have the answer to this because I'm not an expert and I don't know, but the question is, okay, if you talk about this with your husband, right, and I don't know how much you talk about this with your son because that's a complicated question, But I think that if you know enough about what's going on, then I think that you can be more affectionate with your son as a way –
see, you're recoiling from your son if he reminds you of your dad.
But by recoiling from him, you're going to turn him into his dad, so to speak, right?
So if you know that now and you say, okay, I do not want him to turn into his dad, and so I'm going to embrace him and tell him I love him and sit and cuddle with him because that's creating – that's turning him for – it's flipping the switch.
You know, this is like a geeky little boy thing when I had my toy trains.
You know, these switches. Like the train can go straight or it can go to the right or go to the left and you're flipping the switch.
With connection with you, which he now can have in a very real way, because you're off drugs, the connection with you is going to switch him away from turning into someone more like your dad, and so you're recoiling from him because he's like his dad, and that's the terrible trap, that it turns him more into that, and then you recoil further because he's more like his dad, which turns him more into his dad.
You understand that, right? How the toxicity breeds, yeah.
Yeah. Wow.
Oh, thank, like, oh my god, thank you so much.
Oh, you are welcome.
And thank you for, you know, throwing yourself heart, mind and soul into this kind of conversation.
It's not easy at all, but you did a brilliant job.
Thank you so much. I know I was nervous in the beginning, but of course, I know everybody is.
Well, if it's any consolation, like I'm also nervous in the beginning because I have to kind of feel my way through.
I don't have a formula, right?
Yeah. I don't know, like some people, like, I don't know, Dr.
Phil or whatever. This seems like a kind of formula.
I don't have a formula because everybody is different.
And there are a couple of patterns that are important.
You know, yeah, childhood is important.
But for me, the reason I keep doing these calls after 15 years is...
I don't have a formula and every conversation is different.
So I'm always a little nervous at the beginning, like, I hope I can land this thing blindfolded because I don't usually know how it's going to go.
And I'm sort of feeling my way along.
But I think this one went really well.
And that's, you know, a little bit of me, but it's your life and your generosity that drove that.
When I was in role play of my son, like, I really felt like I could put myself in his little body.
Right. Doing that really helps, too.
You can rescue him from his father, so to speak, by connecting with him now.
Now I see it. Initially, when I started listening to you guys, you guys shook me out of that.
Now I'm changed, and I'm going to fix this.
I'm going to do it.
Now that I know what I need to fix, I can fix it.
I think we should quit while we're ahead.
That's the majority of the thing that I wanted to get across.
I'm happy if there's anything else you wanted to mention, but I think you've got to go and have some maybe conversations with people in your life.
Sit down, write some stuff down.
Of course, you'll have this call as a reference, but that's the best.
I think that's the best we could do in this combo.
Yes. Thank you so much.
I'm all good. All right.
All right. Will you keep me posted?
Will you keep me posted how it goes?
I will. I will.
Merry Christmas, Stefan. Merry Christmas and lots of love for your courage and your bravery.
I hugely appreciate it.
And this is how we really help the world.
So thank you so much. Keep me posted and have yourself a lovely weekend.
Yes, sir. You warm my heart.
Bye-bye. Bye. Well, thank you so much for enjoying this latest Free Domain show on philosophy.
And I'm going to be frank and ask you for your help, your support, your encouragement, and your resources.
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