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Sept. 18, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:35:17

INCREDIBLE! "Freedomain and Stefan Molyneux Deradicalized Me!"

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	Hi everybody, I'm here with Stephen and do you want to read the issue that we're chatting about?
	Sure I can. So, my brother came to me tonight and confessed to me his suicidal feelings.
	He said he hadn't felt like I listened to him for years.
	He told me how he felt about the way I treated him when we were kids.
	He said that I abused him.
	I listened to him and he told me he wants me in his life.
	And he wants me back in our family's lives.
	I don't want to reconnect with my family because of the contempt I feel for my mother and father.
	But all my siblings miss me, and my brother told me that they miss their big brother, but I feel so horrible about the situation they are in that I just want to stay out of it and focus on myself.
	How can I help my brother?
	I intend on spending more time with him, but it's going to take time to heal the damage that I've done.
	Well, that sounds, it sounds like there's a hell of a backstory.
	Do you want to, and of course, my sympathies for all the issues you're facing with your family.
	What happened?
	It's a big question, I know, but I'll get comfy as you step me through it.
	Okay, so I guess a lot of the problems that started between me and my brother happened a couple of years back, back in 2016, actually.
	In 2016, there was a really big event.
	I attended a sort of protest that me and my brother were involved in.
	He didn't end up going with me, but he was kind of my comrade in arms, essentially.
	There was a huge fallout from that.
	I ended up losing my job.
	Alright, this is so vague that I'm having challenges.
	Sorry. Sorry, is there something specific that I should go into?
	Well, yeah, you went to a protest, is that right?
	What was the protest about?
	Why would you lose your job? Because I ended up in the newspaper over it.
	Are we talking Charlottesville?
	No, no.
	This was something completely different.
	It was a prayer vigil, and I ended up taking a sign that was...
	Very offensive. And I ended up in the newspaper.
	And then I lost my job over it.
	Now, was it offensive as in it was considered offensive by overly sensitive people?
	Or was it something that you yourself in hindsight would also say, yeah, that's kind of insensitive?
	It was very offensive to me.
	Well, not to me, but I guess to everyone else.
	And it would be very offensive if I told you what it said.
	In fact, I'll just tell you something.
	For clarity. It said, God hates fags.
	And it was incredibly offensive.
	And is that the Westboro thing?
	Yes, but I am not a part of the Westboro thing.
	I chose that phrase specifically because it hurt other people at the time.
	Okay. And what was going on for you in your life that this was your focus?
	This was your intention?
	This was how you spend your precious days of mortality?
	Um... I felt like, okay, so I was a part of something, an organization of sorts, that I had been getting myself into for over a year.
	And I was getting very upset about the way the world was.
	And part of that, my anger was directed at the homosexual community.
	And when I saw an opportunity to hurt them or stand up for my beliefs as I had thought of it, I took that opportunity.
	During that period of my life, I still lived with my parents.
	I was stuck in my job.
	I didn't know where to go.
	I wasn't quite sure where I was going to go next with my life, so I felt like I needed a big shake-up.
	I thought that that was going to validate my existence in a way.
	In what way have you changed your mind, or how has your mind changed since 2016?
	I've definitely become a lot more...
	I started to realize that...
	Okay.
	I guess I've gotten a lot more empathetic to other people.
	I realize that my actions have really negative consequences at times, even if I... And that I do have an influence on the world.
	And... Perhaps ways that I underestimated, and that nobody's going to save me from any situation that I'm in, and that I have to pull myself out of these things.
	Right. Okay. All right.
	Well, I'm glad to hear that you're finding more productive uses for your time.
	Yeah. So, tell me a little bit about your early childhood.
	And listen, the reason I want to ask this is, I'm just obviously curious, but also...
	People see someone holding a sign like that, and it's easy to fall into just rank disgust or hatred or contempt or whatever.
	But everyone has a backstory.
	It doesn't justify what you did or what other people do, but it's important to know the roots of how things start.
	So what was going on for you in your life when you were a child?
	When I was a child?
	So I grew up.
	In a pretty big family.
	I had nine siblings, and I'm the oldest one of all of them.
	My dad's still around, my mom's still around.
	My dad was working all of the time.
	I was homeschooled, but my mother never taught me anything.
	Every time I would go in to get taught by my mom, we'd come to a difficult question, and then she would just give up.
	So I spent most of my time when I was a kid just staying indoors and playing video games.
	And if I wasn't at the house, I was at church on the weekend.
	And so how I made most of my friends was through church.
	And did your church have any of these teachings about homosexuality that you, I don't know, believed or trawled the world with?
	Yeah. My church had a negative view on homosexuals, but I didn't believe that they took it far enough because I felt like, at least what I read in the Bible, had a lot more contempt than the people around me did.
	It felt like a lot of people around me were far too merciful.
	Right, okay. And what was it like in terms of, I mean, there wasn't any intellectual or academic discipline in your homeschooling, which I think is really tragic and gives homeschooling a bad rap for lots of people, but that's more unschooling than homeschooling.
	But what happened with discipline in your household?
	Was it a spare the rod, spoil the child situation?
	How did that play out? I used to get spanked a lot when I was a kid.
	I always had a bit of a weird relationship with my dad in that regard because, you know, I would get in arguments and fights with my mother and then my mother would yell, you know, wait till your father comes home.
	My dad would come home.
	He would ask me what I did wrong.
	And if I said that I did nothing wrong, then he just said he would say I would know what I did wrong and he would he would spank me.
	And if I wasn't being spanked, my parents used to make me stand at the door with my nose on the door, my hands behind my back, or hold my arms out in front of me for an extended period of time, or they would take away things that...
	I had gotten, so like my video games, they would take away my video games.
	Okay, so I mean the spanking I don't agree with, but I've certainly heard of that.
	What's less common is this Guantanamo Bay stress procedure stuff.
	Like what the hell?
	You're standing out like with your arms extended until it hurts?
	Like what's the story there?
	Basically until, yeah, my...
	My mother was satisfied.
	So it eventually starts to hurt if you hold your arms out for a while.
	So you can try, if you just try holding your arms out to your sides or above your head or even forward, it starts to hurt after a while.
	Well, it's also worse than that because, you know, you can get significant discomfort for long afterwards, right?
	Because it hurts your muscles. Oh, yeah.
	Yeah. My grandfather used to do that to my mom all the time, so that was a punishment that just traveled to me.
	Wow. Okay, okay.
	And so you said this is what happened when your father asked you what you did wrong and you didn't know, and what happened when you did know?
	When I did know, I would lie to him or I would spin it in a way that would make myself seem like the more justified party.
	And then what would happen? I'd still get in trouble.
	Okay, so it's kind of a moot question.
	The answer doesn't really matter.
	You're going to get hit anyway, right?
	Pretty much, yeah.
	And how often did you go to church?
	I went to church pretty much every single week.
	I rarely got out of going to church unless I felt bad, like I was sick or I had a really bad headache.
	But I would pretend that To be sick at times just so that I could avoid going to church and I could spend some time alone.
	Right, okay. And how did you get along?
	Let's just call the brother Dan.
	How did you get along with Dan, the brother who contacted you more recently?
	When I was a child? Yeah.
	When I was a child, he was not that close to me.
	He was the third brother, so me and my second brother, we would beat up on him a bit.
	So, like, you know, we'd tell him that he was stupid.
	You know, at times we'd physically hit him.
	You know, we'd tell him to do stuff for us all the time.
	I mean, eventually as he got older, we stopped doing those things and we integrated him and kind of moved down a brother in terms of abuse.
	But me and him, we didn't get along very well when we were kids.
	So tell me a little bit about...
	The impetus or the incentive to abuse your younger brother.
	What was driving that, do you think?
	Deep down, deep down.
	Deep down? Yeah.
	Well, I was tired of being treated like this small guy from everybody at least I knew.
	You know, at church, I always felt really small.
	And when I got home and I felt like a lot of the things that my younger brother would do were Stupid, that I already knew better, and that I could, I could, I don't know, discourage him from doing those stupid things?
	No, no, no, that's not, I'm sorry, that's a good first pass, man, but that's not going to cut the mustard at this altitude.
	All right. Because you knew how terrible it was to be abused, right?
	You knew how it made you feel.
	You knew...
	So why would you do it to others?
	I mean, listen, it's not rare...
	Please understand. It's not like you were some outlier.
	This is pretty common, but help me to understand what...
	I mean, did you feel good after you abused him?
	Did you feel stronger?
	Did you feel empowered? Did you feel happy?
	I remember that when I did those things, like say I hit him, I did it because I was really angry at him for something.
	And I thought I could get away with it.
	What do you mean? Because if he went to your parents, what would happen?
	I'd get in trouble. And did he go to your parents?
	Or was there sort of solidarity among the hobbits, so to speak?
	No. As I recall, he used to go to my parents anyway.
	I think most of the abuse was mainly verbal.
	Like, I would say that he was stupid a lot.
	And I would just do that to discourage him from doing things.
	What were the things that he was doing that you wanted to discourage him from?
	Like, I would ask him to go and do the dishes for me.
	And he would go and do them, but he wouldn't wash the bottom of the plates, for example.
	So he wasn't doing things the way that I wanted to.
	And how old was he at this point?
	He was seven and I was, I believe, ten or eleven.
	So you were mad that a seven-year-old wasn't performing duties in the household up to your exacting standards.
	That's right. That's right.
	I know that sounds ludicrous.
	No, it's an excuse, you understand, right?
	Yeah. You didn't give a shit about the dishes.
	The dishes, like, this is just an excuse, right?
	Perfectionism in the household is just an excuse.
	I mean, let me ask you this.
	I mean, now that you're older, do you have those same exacting standards for yourself?
	Yes, I do, actually.
	Oh, okay. Well, tell me about that then.
	That's unusual, but obviously, you know, you're the expert in you, so tell me more about that.
	So I guess the same exact standards when you mean by doing a thing a certain way and it has to be done a certain way.
	I do feel like that.
	My floor has to be vacuumed a certain way.
	My room has to be cleaned a certain way.
	I don't like things to be where they ought not to be.
	I always clean the dishes a certain way.
	And I hold that standard for myself.
	I just don't necessarily apply it to others nowadays.
	So you apply the same standards for yourself that you had for your younger brother when he was seven?
	That's right. Okay. Okay.
	That's, you know, at least that's not hypocritical because, I mean, I'm coming out of a place where a woman nagged me for tidiness for quite a while, a long time ago, and then I visited back where she was living and it was a complete pigsty after I left.
	Anyway, so, you know, just wanted to double check on that.
	All right. That's fair. You know, I appreciate the correction and the clarification.
	All right. Yeah, I want to be honest.
	I know I'm kind of like tripping over here.
	I'm just trying to... No, you're doing great.
	You're doing great. Okay. So what would the consequences be if your brother did not do the dishes correctly?
	What would happen? What would happen?
	No, sorry. What was your fear of what would happen if he didn't do the dishes correctly?
	That my mother would hold me responsible for them not being done correctly.
	So it was abuse him or be abused yourself?
	Yes. Is that right? Yes, that's correct.
	Okay. And there was no reasoning with anyone and say, look, it wasn't me, it's him.
	One thing I used to hear all the time was, it doesn't matter why it didn't get done correctly or how it didn't get done correctly.
	What matters is that it did not get done correctly.
	And because you're the one who is supposed to be teaching your brother, then you're in trouble for it.
	Have your parents ever confessed that their parenting didn't get done correctly?
	They have not taken full responsibility for it.
	Okay, what percentage responsibility have they taken, roughly?
	Roughly? I would say 20% maximum.
	Okay. Okay, so you are 100% responsible at the age of 10 for your 7-year-old brother, but they're only 20% responsible when they were in their 30s for how they parented.
	Uh, that's right.
	You get that's total bullshit, right?
	Yes, that's part of the reason I don't want to be around my parents at all.
	Okay, I just wanted to double check that, because, you know, I'm talking to you, but we're also talking to the world, right?
	So I want to make sure everyone... That's true.
	No, that's absolutely... That's fine.
	Okay. And so you called him stupid, there was some verbal abuse, and you said you hit him too, right?
	Yes, I did. Was it open hand, closed fist, face, body?
	What would you do? I would do things like smack him upside the head or I would hit him.
	I think the worst I did was with my closed fist.
	I hit him in the face at one point.
	I would hit him in the arms frequently.
	Those are things that I would do.
	And I could do it to him more often because, say, the second brother, he would usually be able to fight back a lot more.
	Well, the one who was older than he was?
	Yes. Wow.
	So I guess whatever you do to the least of us, you do unto me saying of Jesus didn't take a whole lot of deep root for you, right?
	Not when I was that age, no.
	I mean, had you heard that kind of stuff, that Christianity is around protecting the meek and the mild, and the less strong and the helpless?
	My mom would always tell me that I'm not supposed to hit my siblings because of those reasons.
	So you got the anti-gay stuff, and that really delved deep into you, which is kind of tertiary and kind of Old Testament.
	But the other stuff around protecting the meek and the mild, you completely blew past that.
	Not only didn't respect the meek and the mild, but hurt the meek and the mild, right?
	Back when I was 10 years old, I can definitely say that I didn't care as much about the gay stuff, but that was definitely more later development, like in my teenage years, when I was doing a lot less hitting as well.
	No, I understand that.
	But what I'm trying to say is that if you look...
	At the Bible, it's going to be more revealing of you than of Christ or Christianity, right?
	Because when we look at a complex document like the Bible, and everyone cherry picks, because there are, of course, contradictions in the Bible, and what people choose to focus on is indicative of their own personalities and dysfunctions or strengths or whatever, right? That makes sense.
	So if you're kind of a mild-mannered person, you like turn the other cheek.
	If you're a very aggressive person, you focus on an eye for an eye.
	It doesn't tell you much about Christianity, but it does tell you a lot about the individual, if that makes sense.
	That makes a lot of sense.
	Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
	Now, of course, your mother was not following the commandments that she was giving to you from the Bible, right?
	Because your mother was also hitting you and abusing you and so on, right?
	So saying don't hit your siblings when she's hitting children, well, it's just a mind frack, right?
	Hypocritical, yes. So how did things play out with your brother going forward?
	So, throughout the years, I guess, until we hit around 15 and 16, we just kind of kept up with it until, like, we hit that age, and then we just started to hurt each other less because, you know, our chores kind of shifted down to the younger people, so we didn't feel as much pressure to do things.
	So we would be able to play video games with each other more often, and we started bonding like that.
	And me and Dan, in particular, We just started playing co-op games together and talking more, and I would still ask him to do things for me, and he would just do them, but there was no more hitting, no more stupid calling.
	Right. Good.
	But he ended up suicidal.
	He did. He did.
	So that's what I'm... I'm trying to sort of get that story arc, if that makes sense, or that...
	Get to that point? So, me and Dan, we got really close.
	I started working when I was 18, and I started at a job that I had no idea how to do, yet somehow I remained in that job for like four years, and I think that was mainly because my pastor gave me that job.
	Well, I started reading because I had a lot of off time at work.
	And I started to get really into, like, think about politics and religion.
	And I started to go pretty hardcore right-wing, I would consider.
	And, you know, I would get very angry and upset at things, like homosexuality.
	Sorry to interrupt. When you say right-wing, I mean, that means a lot of things to a lot of different people.
	Are we talking conservative or further right?
	Yes. Further than that.
	Further. Okay, we don't have to get into details, but yeah, let's say that you may have sailed close to some abysses, so to speak.
	Very authoritarian.
	Yeah, okay. Alright, go on.
	And, you know, I would start ranting about these things to my brother.
	Like, I would start complaining about the war between the states, and Lincoln was wrong, or homosexuality, or I would keep complaining about, you know, the left, and The increasing sexual degeneracy in our country.
	I would say those things and I'd get so angry with him about them.
	Well, eventually I ended up joining an organization and I started inviting my brother to do things with me.
	We used to go out and post stickers and stuff like that.
	We would spray paint things.
	We would egg things.
	We would do stuff like that.
	And I felt like that was creating a bond between us.
	And it was. We did get pretty strong in that.
	And then I was like, well, Dan, it's, I think, you know, around the time, around 2016, I think it was like, it was 20, or 21, actually.
	And I heard about this vigil going on.
	And I was like, well, you know, I felt like this is the time now to actually do something.
	And so I was like, you should come with me, Dan.
	You should come with me. And so he opted to come with me.
	We drive all the way. We get our stuff.
	We put on our masks.
	We drive all the way down there.
	And I get out of the car.
	I'm like, okay, are you ready, Dan?
	And he's like, no, no, I can't come with you.
	I don't want to do it. I don't think we should do this anymore.
	I was like, it's okay.
	You don't have to come. But I need to go do this.
	Sorry to interrupt, but this was solo initiative, if I understand this correctly.
	You weren't part of a larger group or organization?
	No, I was indeed part of an organization.
	Okay, all right. Again, you don't have to give me any details.
	I was just curious where you stood in regards to that.
	Okay, so you get to the location, and what happens then?
	Well, I step out of the car, and I ask my brother Dan to come with me, and he says...
	That he doesn't want to come.
	That we should just call this off.
	He's kind of sitting there. He's crying a little bit and he's scared of what's going to happen.
	I'm like, it's okay.
	It's okay. You don't have to come if you don't want to.
	But I need to do this.
	I need to do this myself.
	I need to do this regardless of whether or not you come.
	And then I went by myself and I walked towards the area where everybody was.
	And then, well, I had a bullhorn.
	I had a sign and I saw the police officers there and I said, can I just walk around and, you know, is there anything I need to do?
	They said, just stay around the perimeter.
	I was like, alright. And they suggested I don't use the bullhorn, so I didn't.
	I walk around the perimeter, I shout things at people.
	People try to stand in front of me and knock me over and all that.
	Eventually, at one point, I get knocked over.
	I get knocked over and actually my sign ripped out of my hands and shoved to the ground.
	The police apprehended both me and him.
	The police ended up taking off my mask in front of everybody.
	That's where everybody just snapped photos of me and put me in the news.
	They took me over to the police cars and...
	They asked for my ID, so I gave it to them.
	They asked me if I had any weapons on them.
	I told them no. And they said, okay, we're going to transport you back to your vehicle, and you're going to get out of here.
	So they transport me back.
	They pick up my brother, Dan, while we're on the way back to my car, because he's walking around trying to find me.
	And they let me out of the cop car, and they send me to my car, and they say, don't come back or else.
	You know, or else they'll arrest me.
	And so me and my brother drive off, and my brother's pretty quiet the whole time.
	I'm trying to say things like, you know, well, we did a great thing here today.
	Don't you think? He doesn't say anything to me.
	And we ended up going home.
	And I can go further with that if you want, just...
	Do you want to stop me? No, listen, I mean, just for the sake of clarity, I mean, it is not a very positive use of free speech to hold those signs and to disturb a ceremony like that.
	I just really wanted to point that out.
	This is not an ideal use of, you know, your right to free speech, which, you know, I defend, but just want to sort of point that out.
	But we're trying to sort of figure out, or at least I'm trying to figure out how Dan ended up suicidal.
	Okay, so... After that, and I stopped, me and Dan didn't talk as much anymore.
	I apologized to him for taking him to the protest and for doing what I did.
	And he would say he understands, he just wants me to be okay, and we never talked about the whole thing, like, much all after that.
	So, you know, he ended up spending a lot of time with my girlfriend at the time.
	And I didn't talk with him as much, so he started talking with my girlfriend a lot.
	And I think he slowly over time just started to back up or something.
	Like he didn't talk to me.
	Every time he did talk to me, it seems like at least in the last couple of years, I would kind of give him bullet points to help him because I knew he was sad, but he wouldn't tell me every time I asked him.
	I'd say, you know, Dan, why are you sad?
	What's, you know, what's the problem?
	And what's going on with you?
	He's like, you know, it's fine.
	I just, I just don't like when I, I just don't like some things right now.
	And, you know, I can deal with it.
	He didn't want to open up to me.
	So I just kind of like, I gave him like some, some simple advice on what to do, but that's it.
	Right. Okay.
	And then? Well, I noticed that he did start getting into...
	Like marijuana. He picked up vaping.
	At one point he started drinking and he was drinking a lot.
	I noticed this and I asked him about it.
	He said that he's fine and that he can handle himself.
	It's not really as bad as I think it is.
	Do you know what was going on in his life that may have turned him to this substance abuse?
	I know that he worked at a fast food restaurant and he made a lot of friends there.
	But some of his friends were mean to him and were also doing this stuff at the time.
	He also got a girl and he ended up breaking up with her really fast.
	He had a friend that would threaten to kill himself.
	I remember hearing about that and telling him that he should ditch the friend, but he never did.
	And I guess that especially in the last several months, in the last year or so actually, the biggest things that have happened for him are that the friend that said that he was going to kill himself left after attacking him.
	So he's never heard from that friend again since then, but that was one of his closest friends.
	Me and my girlfriend, we broke up back in October, and he was really close to my girlfriend.
	So he was caught between me and her, even though I didn't want things to be that way.
	And then he moved out with her.
	How did you end up going from holding the sign to calling me?
	Because, you know, that's...
	Holding the sign to calling you?
	Yeah, yeah. Because I think that's related to what's going on with your brother, and that's something that's very interesting, if that makes any sense, right?
	I think... Yeah, I think it is.
	So after I... I had to get out of the city after I... I lost my job because people were coming by my parents' house and I couldn't be seen in the city anymore.
	So I left. When I was in the country, I started listening to your podcasts.
	I didn't agree with you initially, but over time I just kept listening and kept listening and kept listening.
	You encouraged me to seek therapy, so I went and got a therapist over a year ago or so.
	I started to kind of dismantle some of the beliefs that I had and, you know, try and embrace more philosophical perspective.
	And when I heard this...
	Sorry, do you remember, was there a moment where, because I guess at the beginning you were kind of grumbling at me like big bald Eggman is captivating but wrong, right?
	Was there a moment in a show or in a speech or something where you're like, okay, fine, I'll give it a try, this sort of self-knowledge and therapy stuff?
	I would say the big part is when I started reading Real-Time Relationships and I read that one part.
	That's my book, by the way, Real-Time Relationships, The Logic of Love.
	It's free at the new Free Domain website.
	Sorry, my friend.
	Go ahead. No problem.
	I read that part where the daughter is talking with the mother and the daughter is talking about...
	Her feelings in real time to her mother and seeing how much that relationship just kind of fell apart just by being honest, right?
	I was like, well, you know, I want to be honest with other people and I don't want to hide the way that I'm feeling all the time because I know that there's something up with me and I don't know how to fix it exactly.
	So maybe I should stop thinking that I'm right all the time and seek help for the problems that I'm having.
	Well, and the problem is not gay people, right?
	Right. I mean, there are problems in the gay community, just as there are in the heterosexual community, but the problems that are of immediate import to your life and your capacity for happiness is not due to the existence of a gay village somewhere.
	It is due to, you know, personal trauma and a lack of commitment to openness and honesty, like all the stuff that I talk about.
	I don't want to sort of tell you what your experience was, but that may be something along those lines.
	It was more my reaction and my seeking scapegoats, I guess, that was the problem.
	It was more internal problems with me rather than my reactions to those problems.
	Philosophy can really de-radicalize people.
	It certainly did with me. So I appreciate that.
	I mean, is that fair to characterize it that way?
	Yeah. Yeah, it definitely is.
	Okay. All right.
	So... Your brother's life.
	He's working in a fast food restaurant.
	He's vaping. He's doing marijuana.
	He's got a suicidal friend who then attacks him and then he doesn't see that friend anymore.
	He's close to your girlfriend and then you break up with your girlfriend, as you said, last October.
	Yes. And so is his social circle shrinking?
	Yes. Yes.
	Right. Yes, it is. Okay.
	Was he isolated in the family?
	Was there any particular thing, like, you know, with siblings, especially with multiple siblings, there are all these alliances forming.
	It's like watching Serbia in 1913, right?
	So all these alliances forming and breaking.
	And was he at all isolated in the family in his history?
	In his history? Only during the time between, like, when it was just me, him, and second brother.
	Then he was more isolated.
	But as we got older, we just started to grow together more.
	But as we started getting jobs, we started getting more disconnected.
	How did the fallout of what you did and the subsequent publicity and obviously animosity that you got, how did that affect him?
	Because people look at individuals who go through something like you went through or do what you did and take the blowback.
	But there's a huge amount of splash damage.
	As you say, people were coming by your parents' place and all of that.
	So what happened to him as a result of what you did?
	People would... Recognize his last name and they would say to him, hey, are you the brother of that guy?
	And then he would say, yes, but he's different now.
	So he would find himself constantly having to defend me to other people because he loved me so much.
	Right, right. He...
	Like, when it came to my ex-girlfriend now, he and her...
	It affected her massively because her family ended up despising me and they didn't want me around for any reason at all and they told her that she should break up with me and so my brother Dan did not want that and my ex did not want that so they talked about that and she kind of leaned on him and he did the same to her.
	So that's why, you know, a big relationship bonded between them, like when I broke up with her, it was a huge thing.
	In other ways it affected him, I guess everything that I had been saying up to that point, you know, I just got real silent, real quiet on him, and I wasn't talking to him straight anymore.
	Sorry to interrupt. Were you able to share with him your journey into self-knowledge and philosophy and therapy?
	Did he have any room to listen to that stuff?
	I attempted to talk to him about it.
	He would say, yeah, okay, that sounds fine, but he would never act on it at all.
	And I stopped trying to reach out to him so much.
	So that was another thing.
	Right. Especially after I broke up.
	Like, I used to hang out with him a lot more before I broke up, but after I broke up, I stopped hanging out with him so much.
	And was that because he missed your girlfriend or was it something else?
	He was with my ex all the time.
	In fact, he's living with her right now.
	Oh, I'm sorry, because you mentioned something about living before, and I meant to bookmark it and come back to it, so I'm glad that that's been clarified.
	So, he's living with your ex-girlfriend right now.
	That's right. That's right.
	He's living with my ex-girlfriend right now, and we were together, me and my ex, we were together for four years, so that breakup was...
	That's horrible. I'm so sorry.
	I mean, no matter what, who initiates or how it comes about, that's just ripping off a heart ventricle and putting it through a blender.
	I'm really, really sorry about that.
	Thanks. I know it's been about almost a year now, but it really messed up my entire family, and it messed up You know, it exaggerated existing problems.
	I know it's a complicated question, but what happened?
	Was it mostly her family's pressure or influence, or was it something else?
	No, it was something else.
	So while we were together, you know, especially in the third and the fourth year of our relationship, We were having a lot of struggles because both of her parents ended up passing away in that time.
	And I did not know how to help her through that time.
	Because I know her dad was a really bad person and yet she was like...
	Because when I initially met her, she was talking so much, so many bad things about her.
	And then he's dying and all those bad things are forgotten.
	So I had a very complicated relationship.
	I didn't know how to handle that because I was like...
	This horrible person is now passing away, and I know he's your father, but still.
	And then her mother, who she adores with all her heart, just passed away as well.
	I didn't know how to handle her grief, a good part of that.
	Oh yeah, the dying thing is incredibly complex and difficult, especially with a dysfunctional parent.
	Because there's a lot of sentimentality, there's this general social pressure to reconcile, to not cause additional stress, to not bring up issues, and it's like your entire childhood trauma just gets whitewashed and it's very destabilizing.
	Yeah, no kidding.
	I didn't know what to do.
	I thought every time that she got some sort of closure, it just kind of reset the next day.
	It was like crying and going all over this all over again and calling me all the time and I need you here right now and taking off time from work to go see her and to pick her up.
	She was struggling with employment as well, so I had to ferry her from place to place and help her get new jobs all the time.
	Because after her mother passed away, because her father passed away first, then her mother, and then they lost the house.
	Were they both ill? Her father abused drugs, so he was suffering from catastrophic liver failure and cancer in the intestines, I believe, or something like that.
	Yeah, so he was falling apart, and it didn't take him long to go.
	Her mother was dying from...
	I think it was pancreatic cancer.
	And she kind of was like hanging on for about three months.
	And then we went and saw her on her deathbed at the hospice.
	And I remember being there in the room when her mother passed away.
	And one of the last things that she said to me that, you know, give me a lot of guilt, especially for breaking up with her.
	Wait, was she being the mom or your girlfriend?
	Yeah, the mom for breaking up with her daughter, which was my girlfriend.
	You know, she said, you know, take care of my daughter.
	And I'll never forget that.
	But she passed away.
	But you know, she has no right to say that to you.
	Because you said it leaves you with a lot of guilt, and I understand that, right?
	I mean, you take that stuff seriously.
	But man, just from the outside, Steve, man, I'll tell you straight up, man.
	A woman who marries a drug addict or allows a drug addict around her children has zero right, zero right, to say to anyone else, you take care of my daughter.
	Because she couldn't take care of her daughter?
	Well, not only did she not take care of her daughter, she harmed her daughter by the husband that she chose to be the father of her children.
	I agree. So I'm just, you know, I'm just pointing that out, that this last breathed words of the dead, which do have, of course, kind of biblical impact on us, I get all of that, and I'm not trying to diminish your feelings here.
	But, you know, take care of my daughter, it's like, you know, why didn't you?
	That's a good question, isn't it?
	Why didn't you? If taking care of her child is so important, why was she having kids with a drug addict?
	This kind of thing is, like, endemic through her family, you know, all the drug abuse and the...
	Marrying people that they shouldn't marry, and then, you know, repeating those same mistakes on the children that they have.
	And then the sentimentality, causing this weird squid-like bond with dysfunctional personalities, which is how the virus kind of replicates, right?
	The guilt? Yeah, yeah, the guilt, the obligation, the sentimentality.
	They did the best they could, but the knowledge they had, and they died tragically, and, you know, I was close to them in the end.
	That's just how the virus transmits generation to generation.
	That's right. And I didn't want to end up...
	Part of the reason I broke up with her was that I didn't want to end up like my dad.
	Because my dad always struggled to keep a roof over our head.
	And my dad was never there for me because he worked so much.
	Because he didn't go to college and he didn't pursue a goal when he was younger.
	So he ended up working these crappy warehouse jobs, two of them, for all of my childhood, even up to this day.
	And... Me and my ex-girlfriend, we moved in together a couple of months after her mother passed away.
	So it was me, her, and one of my friends, my close friends, and we lived together for one year.
	During that period, she experienced a lot of issues maintaining employment, She would violate my privacy on a regular basis.
	That was something that was bad when we were together, but it got worse when we moved in.
	Because when we moved in together, then she was just going through my things all the time.
	Emails, journals, you name it.
	Because she thought you were being unfaithful?
	Is that... I think she said that I didn't share my feelings with her enough.
	Oh, well, listen, I'm with her on that.
	I'm with you with regards to defending you against the pretend mother-in-law.
	But yeah, you are not the most emotionally accessible person I've ever talked with on this show.
	You think so? I'm not blaming you for that.
	I'm not criticizing you at all, right?
	And I'm certainly not taking her aside, whatever she meant.
	But as far as an observation goes, you know, that's sort of my next thing to talk about is where the hell are your emotions in this?
	Yeah, that's what I've been asking myself, too.
	Well, I guess I can continue with where I was going with that.
	Yeah, well, I just want to bookmark that, but go ahead.
	Of course. So...
	That was happening a lot, and I wouldn't try to pry into her financial records, like her bank account, because I obviously didn't want to be that kind of person.
	And she would say, you know, she would say, hey, I can't pay this bill this time.
	Can you just pay it, and I'll pay you next time?
	And I'm like, okay, okay.
	Because we were pretty much co-equal on that, and we said that from the outset.
	So she ended up losing her job.
	She didn't have a license, but she inherited the car from her mother.
	How did she lose her job? She had a couple of jobs and lost them.
	So one of the reasons was that the owner was a really bad person and she would constantly criticize my ex and so that was a big part of why she got let go.
	Another time she was accused of stealing and then she got let go.
	And then another time the shop just decided that it was going to close down and she got let go.
	She mainly worked at retail positions.
	Right. So the jobs were easy, I guess, to get, and turnover was relatively high.
	I think one of the last ones is that she got employed at a big hospital for a cafeteria position, and she got let go the same day that she came on.
	And that was like, oh my gosh.
	You know, she got the ID card made and everything, and things were going so well.
	And then, you know, she was talking up to me like, I'm going to make so much money, I think I'll be able to take care of you.
	And then, boom, crashed down one day.
	So the same day she showed up for work, she got fired?
	That's right. That's right.
	Why? Well, I guess you don't know, right?
	Because you only have her side of it, right?
	That's right. The only reason I know is that they kept trying to stretch her tooth in, is what she said, and she ended up making mistakes.
	That's what she told me. Oh, so she made mistakes, but it was their fault.
	That's right. Yeah, because they run a hospital, so what do they know?
	That's right. Listen, man, I know it's, you know, I don't mean to speak ill of your ex, but you understand this is bullet dodged, right?
	Bullet dodged? Yeah.
	I mean, that's why I keep telling myself.
	I just... I wish I felt the same way.
	No, no, I get that. I mean, we'll get into your feelings in a sec, but objectively, objectively speaking...
	She's not a functional person in many ways.
	At least this is what it sounds like to me.
	If you can't hold down a retail job and you get fired from a job you're very excited about the very first day that you show up, you're going to be carrying this woman and not taking any responsibility.
	None of these is a wake-up call because she's blaming other people.
	That's right. Yeah, so when people externalize, when they blame other people, I mean, what do you get?
	You get immediate relief. Oh, good, it wasn't me.
	But the problem is, of course, that there's no growth.
	And if you can't pinpoint something that's wrong with yourself, you can't work on fixing it.
	Because you're externalizing it to other people.
	Hey, there's a guy who's been to therapy.
	That's good. That's good.
	No, you're right. You're right. And it's a balance, right?
	Because you don't want to take everything on yourself because there are jerks in the world.
	But, you know, you have to ask yourself, if you're around a lot of jerks and it's their fault, then it's your fault for being around a lot of jerks.
	And if you're not around a lot of jerks, then it is your fault and you need to fix and change.
	Either way, you need to fix and change something.
	But the blame thrower is something that burns down your future, right?
	That's right. I had a feeling that I was going to end up like my dad because my mom didn't have a job since the day that I was born, and my dad basically just took care of her forever, and my mom would spend all of her money on all kinds of stupid garbage.
	So when I would see... There's a reason there's a shopping channel, right?
	Yeah. Here's something else you can put in the clutter room.
	Pampered Chef, soda out the wazoo, and really expensive candies.
	I hated that. What is Pampered Chef?
	Oh, it's like one of those...
	It's kitchenware that you buy and you sell to other people.
	Oh, like those Tupperware parties, right?
	That's right, yeah. Or a friend of mine when I was a teenager whose mom had a lingerie party while he was in the house.
	And I'm like, oh man, this single mother stuff.
	One day I'll be able to talk about it to the world.
	Anyway. My mom was always trying to start a new business by buying a bunch of stuff and then never selling it.
	Yeah, my mom dragged me to an Amway thing.
	Not that I know much about the business, but it is just one of these, get rich quick, you know, no effort.
	And it's like, nah, I bet you there's quite a bit of effort involved.
	Network marketing is usually like that.
	Yeah. Multi-level. Multi-level.
	All right. Multi-level marketing.
	Okay. So, yeah, you dodged a bullet because, listen, people who are non-functional, they kind of gratify our vanity in the short run because, like, they need us, right?
	And we can help them and we can talk them up and we can help them move ahead and, you know, we feel needed and all of that.
	And there are times in life where we need to support people strongly in our life if they're trying something new or they've hit a particular setback or whatever.
	But, yeah, the non-functional people, they are just like boat anchors around your nads, man.
	I mean, in the long run, you just can't get anywhere.
	The problem with your parents, at least one of the problems, I mean, aside from the drug abuse and the overspending and the lack of support and the low ambition, is that your father should have been...
	Supported by your mother to the point where he escapes out of the warehouse jobs, right?
	She should be challenging him and, you know, hey, how about this?
	And you've always been good at that and maybe take a course on this and just, you know, help him, encourage him, support him.
	But they're just two non-functional people clinging together, right?
	As the whirlpool quicksand slowly goes down to hell, right?
	And I remember, and this is a little bit of a tidbit about my parents' relationship, is that my mom would walk all over my dad...
	Like, day after day, my mom would complain about my dad not talking to her enough, and she doesn't feel needed or wanted.
	And I'm like, you know, of course, the rest of us need you, but my dad doesn't feel like that because he gets home at like 2 in the morning after working all day in the warehouse, and all he wants to do, of course, is have a beer and then go to sleep for like 4 hours before he has to go to the next job.
	And then whenever my dad would want to talk about something that he was interested in, My mom would say that it was horrible, it was stupid, and that's just a weird conspiracy theory, and you need to stop looking at that stuff because it's just useless.
	And she would roll her eyes at my dad.
	I remember my dad would get into all kinds of things.
	At one time, he was talking to me about Bitcoin.
	But my mom made it seem like it was the stupidest thing in the world, so it's like, okay, you know, I disregarded it because I believed her at the time.
	Not a lot of estrogen-based Bitcoin zillionaires out there, right?
	It's icky. It's technological.
	But here's the thing, too, and another thing regarding your parents' marriage, it's...
	You know, the woman says, your mom says to your dad, you should talk to me more.
	And your dad could reply and say, if you stop spending all of our money on useless shit, I won't have to work as hard.
	I'll be kind of more available to actually have a conversation.
	But you can't have it both ways.
	You can't spend to the point where the guy's got to work like crazy and then complain that he's not there.
	I mean, you can. You can do whatever you want, but it obviously doesn't make any logical sense.
	You reap what you sow in that regard.
	I don't think my mom ever made that connection.
	No, no, no.
	All right. So, your feelings, man?
	My feelings? Yeah.
	You gotta, I mean, when you listen back to this, you'll hear, I mean, you are like reciting the life story of someone from another dimension.
	Yeah, I mean, I guess, especially in the last several months, I felt like I've Become disconnected from things?
	No, no, no, no. You were disconnected when you went out with that sign, right?
	Right. Okay, so that's not new.
	Okay. Right, so you were developing some empathy for others, which, fantastic, like, great job, immensely well done, and kudos from here to eternity, right?
	So you're getting empathy for others.
	You're now calling me regarding empathy for your brother, right?
	Yes. Okay. Where's empathy for Steve?
	For me? For you.
	I mean, I feel really bad about myself.
	I feel... Guilt is not empathy.
	Right. Okay?
	Guilt is not empathy.
	Okay. So...
	Where is your empathy for yourself?
	Where you can say, listen, you know, you did a bad thing or a couple of bad things.
	Not the end of the world. You didn't kill anyone.
	And you have pulled yourself out of it, and you've gone into therapy, and you're de-radicalizing.
	Fantastic. You know, good, good stuff, right?
	Yes. So my question is, where's your admiration for yourself?
	Well, I mean, I could talk about a lot of the good things that I do.
	I'm definitely in a better place than I was.
	I mean, I've got my own apartment, you know.
	I'm helping my friends.
	I'm going to therapy. You know, I'm doing things I enjoy, like graphic design.
	I'm going up in my own job.
	I've been at this same job for the last three years.
	So I've got a lot of things to be proud of.
	Are you either a good person or getting close or on your way?
	I'm on my way. All right.
	And you were heading another way, right?
	I was heading a really bad way.
	You turned that shit around.
	You know how few people do that?
	I don't know. How many people?
	Not many! Not many.
	I mean, has your mom changed?
	Nope. Has your dad changed?
	He has not. Did your girlfriend's mom changed?
	Did your girlfriend's dad changed?
	Neither of them. Yeah.
	Has your brother turned things around?
	Cast your eyes about, man.
	How many people are turning this shit around and heading to the light?
	Not many people are.
	How many do you know? How many do I know?
	Yeah. People who have gotten in bad positions and turned things around.
	I don't know that many people out there.
	How many do you know?
	Answer the question, please. Zero.
	Hey, look, I get to be right wing now.
	Zero. Okay, so zero.
	So listen, I mean, this is important.
	It's really, really important, right?
	So you are one of a kind in your empirical observation, right?
	That's right. Yeah. I turn things around, and you turn things around.
	It's rare. It's rare.
	It's incredibly rare.
	And that's, you know, the rarer the achievement, the greater the self-respect should be, right?
	You're definitely right about that.
	And I should have the self-respect not to involve myself in...
	My family's problems, I think.
	Well, okay. Now, that's a whole other question, which is a very important question, but you contacted me about your brother.
	That's right. Okay. What is driving your brother's suicidality?
	Nothing that I've heard yet clicks for me.
	It doesn't mean I'm wrong or right.
	It just means I haven't got that jigsaw puzzle picture yet.
	It's all pixelated and rotating and stuff, right?
	Yeah. So, the fact that you broke up with your girlfriend who was close to, eh, it's a drag.
	The fact that he's working a low-rent job, eh, you know, that's a drag, right?
	The fact that he's doing some marijuana, okay, that's not...
	But, you know, there's lots of people who are in those kinds of situations, not suicidal.
	What is going on that he's looking to jump?
	That he doesn't feel like he has enough people to connect with, and that's why he reached out to me, because he thinks that I can help him get out of it.
	But he's not taking your advice.
	No. No, he's not.
	All right. So here's a big, big problem.
	And you've known people like this in your life, I guarantee you.
	I have, and everyone has.
	Yes. People who say, hey, look at this big giant wound I have.
	And you say, shit, man, we've got to get you to a hospital.
	No. Can we at least put some ice on it?
	No. Can we bandage it up?
	No. Can we put some iodine on it?
	Hell no! But look at this wound.
	It's huge. It's painful. There's blood and guts pouring out of it.
	Can I call it ambulance?
	No! Can you tell me what happened?
	No! Is this ringing any bells for you?
	Yes. Yes, it does.
	It reminds me of my ex-girlfriend.
	Yeah! I've got all these problems.
	They're terrible. They're tearing me apart!
	Here's how you can fix them.
	No. Well, how about this?
	Oh, no, no, no. Can't do that. Well, okay.
	How about this? No.
	Right? So it's like you just invite...
	Like the wound swallows you up.
	You know, like some sort of reverse birth.
	You just go headfirst into the second chest wound and it closes over you and you're just there in a ribcage of prison, right?
	That's horrifying. It is horrifying.
	And people who walk around wounded who accept no help Are...
	wounding you. How are they?
	Well... They are. Are they wounding me because...
	I see them suffering and I feel like I can't do anything about it.
	Well, no, it's more than a feeling.
	If people won't take good advice from Sal, you've walked the walk, man.
	You've taken the high, hard road.
	You've earned the right to give advice to people who are in a bad place.
	It doesn't mean you're always right.
	It doesn't mean I'm always right. But, you know, you've earned the right to give some advice, right?
	Right. You know, if you've got a nice six-pack, you've earned the right to give people a little bit of advice about carbs and sit-ups, right?
	Right. I agree.
	So you've earned that, right?
	But your brother is telling you, like he told you, he's suicidal, right?
	Yes. So he's telling you he's suicidal, and he's not taking any advice on how to avert this disaster or prevent what might be coming.
	No, he's not. Right.
	So he's trying to transfer his helplessness and his horror to you.
	I'm not saying consciously. But in my opinion.
	You know, it's like the woman who has the...
	The bullshit beating up boyfriend.
	And, you know, she comes and cries on your shoulder and you say, well, man, you've got to not go home to this guy.
	He beats you. But I love him.
	Right? Okay, so just the helplessness, right?
	Right. Because how you feel is probably how your brother...
	Like, if you want to know how your brother's feeling, look at how you're feeling.
	Because people who are unconscious will always replicate...
	Like their experience in you, people who are unconscious, right?
	This is part of RTR as well, right?
	So people who are acting in an unconscious manner without self-knowledge, they will recreate their helplessness in you.
	Exhibit A is your ex-girlfriend, right?
	So she felt helpless regarding employment.
	And so what happened was you ended up feeling helpless as well.
	Because she'd get fired. It was never her fault.
	Nothing changed and you kept getting fired again.
	So she feels helpless.
	Why? Because she's not taking any responsibility.
	So therefore you end up feeling helpless.
	Right? So her feelings transmit to you.
	So because he feels helpless...
	I don't know exactly what he feels because I don't know exactly what you feel.
	But almost for certain, if we feel a particular way around someone...
	And they're not communicating openly and clearly, which is again very rare, but if we feel something around someone, most likely it's their feeling that they're transmitting to us.
	I'm not sure I get it exactly.
	No, no problem. It's a click thing.
	You'll get it with a click, right? So when you think of your brother, what do you feel?
	Sad. Okay, what else?
	Because sadness propels you into action, right?
	Right. But you're not propelling yourself into action because you're talking to me rather than him, which, again, may be the wisest thing, but...
	I feel sad.
	I feel kind of helpless.
	Okay, sad, helpless. What else?
	I feel like I love him.
	Um...
	I feel I can miss him.
	I feel some guilt.
	Okay. About how you treated him as a child?
	Yeah. When he brought that up to me, I had totally forgotten about the things that we did when we were kids like that.
	And what did you say when he brought it up to you?
	I said that I was sorry.
	I'm sorry that I treated you that way when we were kids.
	I know it's tough to recreate, but give me the speech that you gave to him and try and recreate the feeling if you can.
	Okay. Dan, I'm sorry that I hit you when we were children, that I abused you and I called you as names.
	I know that I didn't realize how much that affected you to this day.
	And I appreciate you telling me.
	And I want to do whatever I can to help you get closure for those things.
	I'm sorry.
	Go on.
	Thank you.
	That's all I remember saying about that.
	How are you feeling now? I feel sad.
	And tell me a bit about that sadness.
	It feels like...
	It feels like I have, like...
	Needles on my head.
	It's like I remembered some horrible thing that I did in the past and I feel guilty for it.
	Wait, it's like or you do?
	It is like that.
	It is that.
	It is that. Okay. Why is he telling you to reconnect with your family if that's against your values at the moment?
	He's telling me that because he's saying that that will be the thing that helps him.
	No, no, no, no, no, no.
	Oh, my God. That is so unfair.
	No, no, no, no, no. No, and that is so unfair and it's not a true statement in my humble opinion.
	Can I tell you something he told me exactly?
	Please. He said, sometimes...
	We have to sacrifice our happiness for the sake of other people's happiness.
	And that I don't resent or hate you, Stephen, for the things that you did to me, and I don't think that you should resent or hate anyone else for the things they did to you.
	Because when you start hating people, you just become consumed by that.
	Yeah, no, I've heard this gypsy curse as well, right?
	And the truth is, though, that, I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but tell me if this is the case, that you probably don't spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week hating your parents.
	No. No, you're just like, okay, this is not for me right now.
	That's right. So you don't hate them.
	I mean, I don't wake up every day saying, oh, my mom, my mom, you know, I mean, I know people think that sometimes, but it's not the way that I live my life.
	You know, you're afraid of the tiger, but when you get into the hotel, you kind of forget about the tiger.
	You know, like when you're safe, when you've got a distance, when you've got boundaries.
	And sometimes, if people don't have the capacity for emotional boundaries, the only thing that can save you is physical distance.
	Yes. Right?
	I agree with that entirely.
	I remember reading this one part in your book where you were talking about how you feel when you see your mom's name show up on your phone, right?
	And I remember empathizing with that because whenever I saw my mom's name on my phone, I was like, I don't want to answer this.
	I don't want to hear it. I don't want to talk to her again because anytime that I had come to her with my problems, she would tell me, you know, she would ask me why I feel that way and how it doesn't, that I shouldn't feel that way.
	Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Well, but your brother is doing the same thing.
	He's saying you're wrong for the way that you're treating your parents.
	You're wrong for the way that he imagines you feel about your parents because he's imagining that you're just hating, hating, hating, right?
	Yes. But he didn't ask you any of that, right?
	So, unfortunately, he's your mom's sock puppet in this situation.
	He's simply parroting what your mom wants you to hear.
	That's right. Right.
	And I've heard that from other siblings as well.
	In fact, there's something else that I wanted to mention to you since it happened today.
	My sister sent me a text message confessing her Suicidal feelings.
	Your sister too? My sister.
	And she says that it's my fault that she feels this way.
	Oh my god. That's not just suicidal.
	That's half murderous. What's her reasoning behind that?
	Because when I lived at the house, I used to say something about my mom should lose weight and that women shouldn't be fat and that She says that it's caused her to have an eating disorder.
	Wait, it's caused your sister to have an eating disorder?
	That's right, because that applies to her too.
	I'm so sorry.
	Holy shit. You ever got a circular firing squad assembling around you, right?
	I know. Jesus, H. That is brutal.
	I don't know what to say to that.
	Okay, hang on. Where's your feeling here, right?
	Because your voice broke a little there, right?
	So I can't see you.
	I can't see you, right?
	But what's going on?
	This is a horrendous way to treat someone.
	They're threatening death and blaming you?
	The fuck?
	Yeah. God almighty!
	This is...
	How this family system operates is to get your way.
	You lean out of a fucking high window in Dubai.
	Like, what the hell? I don't know why it's like this.
	Oh, man. I... I know my mom...
	I'm so sorry, man. Nobody should ever, ever, ever be faced with what you're being faced with.
	I mean, you want to know where your earlier quasi-murderous rage towards gay people came from.
	You understand that this is the mechanics of how the family works.
	To get your way, you escalate and you threaten, right?
	Yes. As I said, everyone has a backstory, right?
	Everyone has a backstory.
	And you were a man young enough...
	That people were using you and your trauma to inflict their own abuse on the world.
	To hurt other people.
	But this is where things are.
	And oh my god, do you ever have some devilry to stare down, my friend?
	I am so glad you called.
	Thanks. Because you've got to feel kind of alone in all this shit, right?
	Yeah. Is anyone on your side?
	Well, the side of reason and sanity, and you don't threaten to kill yourself to get people to do what you want?
	That's monstrous behavior!
	My friend that lives with me, he's been very supportive of me, and he's told me that I don't have to deal with this.
	You know, it is my own life, and that what they do is not your fault.
	And I realize that.
	Yeah. But I've disconnected from my previous friend group, so it's like I don't have a lot of other people.
	I don't know what to say.
	I don't know how to bring this kind of thing up to other people besides maybe him, and he's my close friend.
	I'm glad he's there, man, and do give him a hug for me, because it's great having someone in your corner.
	I will.
	He's been really helpful through all this.
	So both of your siblings are blaming you for their suicidal feelings to some degree or another and your brother said reconnecting with your mom and your dad would help and did your sister say the same thing or was it just I have an eating disorder because you said mom was overweight?
	Did you want me to go over exactly what she said?
	No, you can just tell me.
	Because what did she want to do?
	You always know that someone's a bully when a complaint comes with a request, right?
	Or something this escalated.
	I asked her what she wanted me to do, but she never responded to that.
	So she didn't tell me what she wanted me to do.
	But both of your siblings at the same time, that means mom's putting the pressure on them.
	That's what I thought. Because I know my mom told me that I don't come around anymore, and then my brother tells me that I need to come around more, and then my mom mentioned something about my sister having problems because of me, and then my sister comes to me and tells me it's because of me.
	And I'm just waiting to hear from some other siblings on something else.
	I mean, they really are Turn of the screws, man.
	I know. And how long has it been since you've talked to your mom?
	It has been a couple of months.
	The only time I hear from her is to ask me about my cell phone bill.
	That's it. And do you talk to her about that?
	Oh, you send emails or what?
	Text messages. Like, she asked me if she can...
	Take some money to pay my bill, and then I give her the money, and that's it.
	I know that needs to be something that I cut off, but...
	Okay, that's a procedural thing.
	And do you know where your dad is in all of this, or what's going on with him?
	He's just not there.
	My dad, he's at work, and then he's at home.
	And the only time I've heard from him is when he sends me, like, YouTube videos to watch through text messages.
	But he doesn't say anything besides that unless I respond.
	So Steve, how was your family when you broke up with your girlfriend?
	Did they sit down and listen and talk and were they there for you or what?
	My dad told me that I was selfish.
	And that I didn't deserve a girl like her.
	Oh, God. Oh, talk about twisting the corkscrew.
	Okay, what else happened when you were heartbroken at this very harsh point in your life?
	My mom said that if there was a problem that I could have always come and talked to her and I didn't have to do something this drastic.
	And then my siblings, usually when I went over to my parents' house, they would all, you know, huddle around me and hug me.
	But... Only the little ones did.
	A lot of, like, my sisters didn't want to look at me.
	And because they were, my entire family was really close to her, too.
	So everyone thought that I was, you know, I was being the bad guy in all this.
	I remember my brother. So they did not help.
	They hurt during the time.
	Like, you know, kick a man when he's down, right?
	Yep. But sorry, you were going to say something else?
	The same brother, Dan, he tried to convince me to get back with her a couple of nights after I broke up.
	But that's based on his preferences too, right?
	Did he do a lot of listening?
	I mean, did anyone hear your side of things or what?
	So my mother and my father and my brother, when I told them the reasons that I had broken up with her, they said that that was small stuff that could have been fixed and that My dad told me that I was the man in the relationship and that this is something to be expected.
	Because my family comes from a background where, you know, the man takes care of the woman and there's not a lot of room there for it.
	Well, no, no. Look, your dad is not taking care of your mom.
	He's shielding her from reality, which is quite the opposite of actually taking care of someone, right?
	Sorry, it's the lingo that I use.
	No, no, I understand. I don't want that lingo to get embedded in you like some miscast fishhook.
	You're right. Not taken care of.
	He's enabling her unreality.
	That's right. My mom doesn't live in the real world, and that's why she can't offer me any real-world advice.
	Do you think that either you're...
	Because if it's manipulative, then they're in no danger of killing themselves.
	Because it's just a ploy, right? You know, it's like the little kid saying, I'm going to hold my breath until I die, if I don't get cake, right?
	Well, I'm not going to hold their breath until they die.
	I mean, what does your gut say about these?
	Are these legitimate cries for help, or are they manipulative threats?
	My gut say? My gut says that they're exaggerating it, or they're doing it for somebody else's purpose.
	But I feel like I should listen anyway, because...
	They're my siblings. I love them.
	Well, the stakes are pretty bloody high, right?
	Because if one or both of them kill themselves...
	That would be way worse.
	That would be pretty rough.
	But you see, that's the problem, is that if it is a manipulative ploy, I mean, they've just...
	they've axed the base of the tree of your connection.
	Because if somebody is willing to threaten that to get their way...
	You can't negotiate with something like that.
	Because your brother is saying, I want you to reverse your values, reverse your progress, and reattach to somebody you find destructive and dysfunctional.
	Right? Yes.
	What the hell would that have to do with his suicidality?
	I want you to go against your deepest and most closely held values.
	Otherwise, I'm going to kill myself.
	That is a truly monstrous thing to say to someone.
	Because it's putting you in an impossible situation.
	Ah, there it is.
	There it is, my friend.
	He's putting you in an impossible situation.
	Why? Your sister's putting you in an impossible situation.
	Why? Because they are being put in impossible situations.
	Bye. My mother.
	Mommy dearest, right?
	Yes. They're being put into an impossible situation because your mother is saying, you get Steve back in here.
	I miss him so much, I want him back.
	You get him back. You talk to your brother, you get him back.
	So, they don't know how to do that.
	And there probably isn't a way to do that if that's what she's doing, right?
	Right. And so, what are they trying to do?
	Well, they're trying to get you To obey them by threatening about as terrible a thing as can be imagined.
	Because without fail, that's something that might work if I don't see you through it.
	Right. I can't say I've had that happen before.
	Well, but here's the thing, man.
	You haven't done something like this before.
	In other words, you've not talked to your mom for a couple months, right?
	So you're trying to get some distance out of a dysfunctional relationship under the care of a therapist who sounds like he or she knows what she's doing.
	So you are trying to get some boundaries and some distance, right?
	So you've changed your behavior, and what that means is they have to change their behavior, right?
	Yes. So you're, in a sense, escalating, or at least that's what they perceive, and so they're going to escalate in return.
	They're changing their behavior and response in a negative manner.
	Right. Right.
	Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
	And your mother is like, I better get Steve back clutching under my aprons, or what if he talks to my other children?
	What if his example, hey, look, you can get out of jail.
	It's not even locked. What if his example encourages the other prisoners to make a break for it?
	Right? So you understand this is how these things work, right?
	I think that makes sense.
	One of my brothers, the second brother, he still lives with my parents, and he's only two years younger than I am.
	He's still living with my parents.
	He doesn't have a car. And he's, you know, working her way at this dead-end job, but my mom never says anything negative about it.
	Well, of course. She likes them dysfunctional.
	She likes them broken. Because if they ain't broken, they're you.
	Yeah. They're getting away.
	That's why my mom always told me that I could stay at the house.
	That I could just stay with them.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	Because I validate my mom's existence.
	It would be very nice for her to be generous with your dad's money.
	Yep. Yep.
	That's right. You know what's interesting?
	There's a stereotype that gay people have complicated relationships with their mothers.
	Really? Oh yeah.
	Oh yeah. And that was your major issue with the gay community, right?
	My major issue. Well, yeah, so you had dislike for the gay community, which have stereotypically troubled relationship with their mothers.
	Anyway, okay, so let me give you, again, this is just my amateur opinion, of course, and talk everything over with your therapist.
	But listen, I mean, I get people who talk to me about suicidality, right?
	It comes up in the...
	Live streams, it comes up in the call-in shows, it comes up, right?
	Now listen, suicidality, like let's say someone comes to you and says, I think I have cancer.
	What would you say to them? You should go to a doctor.
	And they say, no man, I want you to deal with it.
	Don't you have a fork?
	Don't you have gauze?
	Don't you have a band-aid?
	You need to deal with my cancer.
	I tell them I'm not a doctor.
	Right! Right! I don't deal with suicidality.
	Because that is a very complicated and deep, complex, dark challenge.
	And that's left to professionals, like cancer.
	Yeah. Okay, so someone comes to you and says, I get the emails, and I always say the same thing, like, I'm really, really sorry.
	That you're feeling this way.
	You need to call a helpline.
	You need to check yourself into ER. You need to get to a therapist.
	You need to talk to someone who's a professional because I'm a podcaster.
	So when people come to you with the S-bomb, I'm feeling suicidal.
	You're like, okay, we're going to go and look up the hotline, man, and I'm going to sit here while you call them.
	In the same way someone comes to you and says, I think I cut my femoral artery while knitting needle ballet, you're like, well, I will dial 911 for you, but I'm not going in there with a staple gun to fix that shit.
	So people drop the S-bomb on you, and I don't think it's manipulative when people do it with me, because they're not my family, right?
	But you get them to professionals.
	Because professionals, like, if there's a bomb, you call the bomb squad.
	You don't just go in there with suppliers and cross your fingers saying, well, I saw a Mission Impossible movie.
	I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing.
	Because to defuse suicidality is like defusing a bomb.
	You don't do it unless you know what the hell you're doing.
	That's why I tell people, go and get the help that's professional.
	That's why I tell people, go to therapy all the time.
	I can give some philosophical principles, but I'm not taking that on.
	I'm not trained.
	Suicidality is a very difficult thing.
	Because it can be manipulative, it can be genuine, there can be elements of both.
	You've got to get your brother and sister to professionals.
	And the way you find out if it's manipulative is if they won't go.
	That makes a lot of sense to me.
	Suicide is literally a life-threatening ailment, right?
	Literally a life-threatening ailment.
	So there was this old show, Sanford and Sons, where whenever the dad was asked by the son to do something he didn't want to do, he'd pretend to have a heart attack.
	I'm coming to meet you, he'd say to his dead wife or whatever, right?
	He'd pretend to have a heart attack.
	And then the son would be like, oh, you're having a heart attack?
	Okay, I'll call the 911.
	And he's like, don't, don't, you know...
	And so this is, it's, again, I'm not trying to give you any, you've got to talk this over with your therapist.
	Like, please don't take anything I'm saying as any kind of gospel, because I hope your therapist would be a, but just my experience and my thoughts about this, because I grew up with a hypochondriac mom, so I know a little bit about fake ailments.
	And my experience has been, if somebody's really wounded, they want you to call 911.
	If they're faking it, they don't.
	And so you've got to say, again, talk things over with your therapist before you do anything is my strong suggestion.
	But, you know, somebody says something like this.
	Here's the helpline, man.
	You know, sister, brother, I'm so sorry you're feeling this way.
	This is above my pay grade.
	You know, I'm a graphics designer.
	I'm not a psychologist, right?
	You would say. So, hey, you need help with fonts and placement.
	I'm your guy. You're feeling suicidal.
	That's a job for a professional.
	So get them the help that they need.
	And the help that they need is not you going to see your mom who you're trying to get some distance from.
	That's not... I can't conceive of how anyone would say that, yeah, well, just solve it that way.
	Because then you're just rewarding...
	If it's manipulation and bullying, you're just rewarding it.
	Sorry, go ahead. He was trying to get me to make promises to show up to big family events.
	But I told him that I couldn't do that.
	That, you know, obviously...
	You know, the relationship between me and parents is damaged.
	You invite him over to talk, you pick up the phone, you dial the suicide hotline, you hand him the phone.
	Okay. Right? And again, this is my advice, which is completely secondary to your therapist's advice, and it may be completely contradictory, I don't know, but just telling you what I would do.
	I'll be sure to talk to him about it. Yeah, just what I would do is, you know, hey man, come over if you're feeling, or I'll come to you, where are you?
	I'll drive to see you, right?
	And you go there and you're feeling suicidal?
	Okay, get in the car we're going to see someone.
	Or here's the beep, beep, beep, here's the helpline.
	You know, you've got to talk to someone about this, someone who's trained, somebody who knows what they're doing because I can't fix this.
	Why does my mother, why does my ex, why do they want to dig their hands into my life so much?
	They keep wanting to do it over and over again, and they're using people like my brother to get to me Let me ask you this does it matter matter.
	Does it matter why?
	Does it matter why? I guess not.
	Why is the bear chasing me?
	Is it hungry or does it want to play?
	Does it matter? That's a good point.
	Like, plumbing the motives of others is a great distraction from action.
	I mean, we could theorize something, you could, you know, but does it really matter?
	Why does my boyfriend beat me?
	Does it matter? You're right.
	It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
	What matters is what they do and how you feel.
	I mean, if you follow my Twitter feed, you see this about a million times a day as people imagining nefarious motives for what it is that I'm tweeting.
	Oh yeah. You see that and you roll your eyes, right?
	Yeah. It doesn't matter.
	There may be some answer and whatever, right?
	But it doesn't matter fundamentally when it comes to how you need to keep yourself safe and secure.
	Because knowing that answer won't change their behavior.
	That's the foundational thing, right?
	No, you're right.
	The only thing that I can do is try to find answers for the way that I feel about this.
	That's correct. I believe that's true.
	One thing I feel is that I do feel guilt for trying to get away from my family so much.
	I feel like I'm obligated, I guess, to spend time around them, to be with them, like I owe them something.
	You said this in an earlier podcast, it's like, you know, I'm paying the mortgage on a house that they got me, and now I'm obligated to keep paying that through We owe our parents justice.
	We owe everyone justice.
	And justice, as I've talked about recently, is paying what you owe and not paying what you don't owe.
	You don't owe your parents for feeding and sheltering you when you were a child because they chose to have children.
	You can't have your allegiance bought for you, right?
	You can't be bought and paid off and kept like some sort of vassal slave because people bought you an Xbox 10 years ago.
	You can't buy people that way.
	I mean, my daughter owes me absolutely nothing for the time and money that I spend on her.
	Nothing. I chose to have a child.
	She didn't choose to be born. You owe them justice, which is if they're good people, I think you owe them love and allegiance, and I'm sure you would pay them, and you'd write them to be that way, and if they are immoral and destructive...
	Then I don't owe them that.
	Well, no.
	No, because if you give love, if you give pretend love to unjust people, you'll never be able to actually love just people, because you've already corrupted the word love by paying it to villains.
	To people who don't deserve it from me.
	Well, and not only don't deserve it, but have kind of worked the opposite way, right?
	They've earned my contempt.
	Well, yeah, I mean, certainly, if, you know, and this is going to be something to explore with your therapist, if it turns out, and you may never be able to verify this, you understand, right?
	But if it turns out, or if you have strong suspicions that your mother is manipulating your siblings to threaten you with their suicide in order to get you to conform, that is as brutal and destructive, right?
	No, I did not.
	No, you're right about that.
	If I find out those things, it'll tell me a lot.
	And you may never know, but, you know, there may be good reason to believe.
	And to me, the big teller is, you know, okay, let's meet.
	Let's meet, and here's, you know, here's the number, here's the suicide hotline, you talk to them.
	And if they're like, no, I don't want to talk to the suicide hotline, what, are you crazy?
	It's like, eh, well. So I can do what I can do to help them, but, you know...
	No, no, no, you can't.
	No? No, you can't help them.
	You can suggest that they get help.
	In the same way you can't cure someone's cancer, but you can suggest they go to an oncologist.
	And if they won't go to an oncologist, what can you do?
	I can't really do anything about it if that's the case.
	You can repeatedly tell them to go to an oncologist, but at some point...
	You just have to accept people for who they are and stop trying to change everyone.
	You know, I mean it's tragic, right?
	But that's the release.
	The release and the relief of just accepting people for who they are is, okay, I'm going to stop trying to change you because I can't.
	I'm going to work with the actual empiricism of what you do and what you say.
	Because I have to respect their choices.
	Yes, yes, yes, yes.
	Don't respect them, but respect that they're making those choices and accept that their choices reveal everything.
	That makes a lot of sense.
	That makes a lot of sense.
	Have we had a useful chat, my friend?
	Yeah, that was wonderful.
	Thanks, Stefan. It really cleared up a lot of things for me, and I... I definitely feel a lot better than I did at the beginning of this call.
	And listen, I mean, I appreciate that.
	I am so sorry that this is what you're facing, but I will tell you this, Nietzschean style, man, you will come out of this a living man god of resolution and integrity.
	I'm telling you this straight up.
	There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and it's as brighter than you can imagine.
	I'm going to keep my eye out for it, and I'm going to keep pushing forward.
	Will you keep me posted, man?
	I'll let you know how things go.
	All right. Listen, I send lots of love your way.
	Congratulations on turning things away.
	Congratulations on getting therapy.
	And I'm sorry that it's provoked this kind of response, but I really, really do want to know how things go.
	I'm totally in your corner.
	And if there's anything I can do, just let me know.
	Thanks so much, Stephan. I really appreciate it.
	I'll be sure to send you a message and let you know.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	Bye-bye.
	Bye-bye.
	And I'm going to be frank and ask you for your help, your support, your encouragement, and your resources.
	Please like, subscribe, and share, and all of that good stuff to get philosophy out into the world.
	And also, equally importantly, go to freedomain.com forward slash donate.
	To help out the show, to give me the resources that I need to bring more and better philosophy to an increasingly desperate world.
	So thank you so much for your support, my friends.

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