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Aug. 26, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:10:40

MUST LISTEN! "My Husband's Son is NOT HIS!" Freedomain Call In

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	Hi, everybody. Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain.
	Hope you're doing well. We have a big, big topic today.
	We're talking with Jackie, who wanted to bring up this topic some months ago and got cold feet, I suppose you could say, for reasons that I think will be abundantly clear.
	I'm glad you're back, Jackie.
	How are you doing today? I'm doing well.
	Thank you. All right.
	Do you want to lead us off?
	Sure. I wrote to you several months ago, like I said, and I chickened out.
	But I'm a 51-year-old teacher here in the States, and I have several secrets in my life that I feel like I need to confront.
	First of all, I've been married to the same man for over 20 years now.
	We have four beautiful children.
	But my firstborn is not his biological son.
	When we married, I must confess I was dating another man.
	And so it was quite obvious when my son was born that my current husband was not the father.
	And it was quite a shock, although, of course, it was not an unexpected shock.
	I stayed married to him.
	He's a very stable, hardworking man.
	And we continued along as if nothing had happened.
	And I told him immediately, I said, you know, this is, I have to tell you, this is not your biological son.
	I could tell right away. And he threatened me and he said, if you tell anybody, you know, he threatened me.
	He's never laid hands on me but I felt very threatened and we haven't really talked about it since.
	We've never confronted the issue.
	So we have three more children and building our life and lives together and now my son is 20 years old and he's a wonderful boy but he's very withdrawn at times.
	I don't feel like he has a very close relationship With my husband.
	And of course, he has no idea that his biological father is not my husband, is not the man that he's grown up with.
	My other children are close with their dad.
	We have, from all outside, if anybody were to look at our family, we'd look perfectly normal, you know, very happy and healthy and well-respected locally.
	So that's my first Major secret that's kind of been haunting me for, obviously, for 20 years.
	Well, and it's not necessarily a secret that is keepable, if that makes sense.
	I mean, it's keepable when the kids are young, but as your son is now getting to maturity to adulthood, it's a little trickier, right?
	It's very tricky.
	I look at him and I can't help but think about his biological father.
	And I wonder how many mistakes I'm making, you know, Depriving the man that I once knew of knowing his wonderful son, because he is a wonderful boy.
	He makes me so proud every day.
	He's quiet and withdrawn, like I said, but he's just a hardworking, honest, fun, big, strong, handsome boy.
	And so, you know, I think about the man that I dated before I was married, and I wonder...
	Well, what kind of relationship they could have.
	And I also wonder what it would do to my son to tell him the truth.
	Sorry. No, listen, if there's anything to be passionate and sorrowful and emotional about, this would be the topic, right?
	This is very deep.
	It's very primal in terms of identity and history and family and so on, I mean, and lies.
	It's a hell of a topic.
	And I mean, your emotions, I mean, if you didn't have those emotions, I don't think we'd be having this call because that would be kind of freaky, right?
	Right, right, right.
	So do you mind if we rewind and tell me a little bit more about the circumstances of the origin of this story?
	Sure. So... Unless you want to take a break, tell me how you're feeling.
	That's obviously totally fine as well.
	No, I'm fine. I'm fine.
	I'm probably...
	I listen to you all the time, Stefan, so I know your opinions on women and dating and so on.
	And I probably made every mistake in the book.
	So I was putting myself through college at the time, working two and three jobs.
	This is the late 90s.
	I'm sorry, the mid-90s.
	And... I put myself through college and I met this man and we dated for quite a while, but he was just not as stable as I had wanted to settle with.
	Let's call him Raul, just so we don't have to keep saying this man and that man.
	Raul is the biological father of your son, and we'll just call your husband Bob, if that's all right.
	Sure. So what attracted you to Raul in the beginning?
	He was very romantic.
	I was studying overseas, and he would send me letters.
	He would send me letters with feathers in them, and flowers, and poetry, and He would quote E.E. Cummings in his letters to me.
	He was just very romantic.
	He knew how to...
	We had wonderful conversations.
	We went camping together.
	We enjoyed each other's company.
	It's a shame, you know, and I'm sorry to...
	But you remember, right?
	This was Bill...
	I mean, I'm not putting the guy in the same category, obviously.
	But unfortunately, some of that romantic stuff has been kind of...
	Deep Six for me by Bill Clinton handing out Walt Whitman's leaves of grass to every woman he wanted to bang.
	So, I get it.
	No, but the romantic stuff is often, not always, but it's often kind of a compensation for a lack of resources.
	It's like, well, I don't have much money. I'm not sure I have a lot of prospects, but boy, can I quote E.E. Cummings.
	Yes. And I began to realize that.
	I was in theater school.
	I confess to have it had the same approach.
	Yes. Well, it's a very seductive thing.
	And so when I met Bob, my current husband, and I guess there was overlap between the two of them.
	So how long did you go out with Raul for?
	Off and on, about two years.
	And what was the off and on part?
	Were you just kind of freaking out at the cliff edge of instability, finances and stuff?
	Yes, yes, absolutely.
	Was he a good looking guy?
	Yes, yes. Wow, good looking guy, plus poetry, plus youth.
	That is a hard thing to cross your legs for.
	Yeah, I guess you can say that.
	Yeah. So the contrast between a stable man and a romantic man, I chose the former over the latter.
	In terms of building a life together, I chose Bob for his stability and not necessarily the romance.
	Right, right.
	Okay, so when you would break things off with Raul back in the 90s, was there something in particular that would happen?
	Was there a dysfunctional problem in the relationship or was it more like you just kind of got uneasy about the future?
	I got uneasy about the future.
	He had been married and divorced and he had a child and he quit his job in banking and To pursue a job in natural resources.
	He loved the outdoors.
	He loved being outside and fishing and hunting and all of that.
	And so he wanted to pursue something else.
	And so he had a tenuous income.
	He had a tenuous relationship with his ex-wife.
	He didn't have stable living arrangement.
	So, you know, Good guy, but he was following his heart, I suppose, and not thinking about stability.
	Well, did he have...
	I mean, I got to tell you, just from the outside, Jackie, one of the things that I've noticed is that guys seem to lose a lot of ambition when they have to pay a lot of alimony and child support.
	Was that anything to do with why he dropped out of banking?
	I have never thought about that.
	Because it's like, you know, hey, if I'm making a huge amount of money, I just got to cart it over to the ex-harpy, so I guess I might as well pursue my dreams.
	You know, that could have been part of it.
	I've never thought about that.
	Right. Okay, so how old was his child back in the day?
	She was six, I believe.
	So I'm just doing the math here.
	It looks like you were staring up a couple of flights of stairs of years there with him.
	He was, I believe, five or six years older than me.
	And did you meet the ex-wife?
	Did you meet his daughter? Yes, yes, I've met both of them.
	And what was your assessment of the ex-wife?
	Because, you know, that's kind of the root of the tree that you're dealing with, is the visible stuff, right?
	Which is, when you meet someone, you see all the stuff above the ground, right?
	Because you see all of the stuff that they can present to you.
	But history, particularly when you get to see it firsthand in terms of past relationship, that's the roots, right?
	That's kind of what's underneath, and that's kind of hard to fake.
	So what was your thoughts about his ex-wife?
	Well, first of all, she was physically beautiful.
	She was working on her engineering degree, and it seemed to me that she probably fell for Raul for all the same reasons that I fell for him, the romanticism.
	And he was good-looking, I assume.
	Yeah, and he was good-looking.
	And how good-looking are we talking here?
	On a scale of 10, I would say he was probably 8, 8.5 years.
	Mm. Plus, I mean, at the time she met him, he was heading into banking and finance, so he's like resource Krakatoa guy, right?
	He's like old faithful with the money.
	Right, right, right.
	Right, okay. And what else about her did you notice?
	Well, I think she had her stuff together.
	You know, like I said, she was working on a degree in engineering, and I believe she was very close to finishing it at the point that I met her after the divorce.
	And she seemed to be a stable lady that was already moving on.
	She was a good mom to her daughter, from what I could tell.
	I wasn't around them a lot.
	And she was dating a fireman.
	So I think she was emotionally and she was just ready to move on.
	She was fine. And how long had they been married?
	They were married for approximately five years.
	And do you know why they broke up?
	No, no idea.
	What? You went out with this guy for two years?
	You didn't know why he broke?
	That seems like, well, you were young, right?
	So what do we care, right? I think she initiated the divorce, as far as I could tell.
	And like I said, I think it was probably for all the same reasons why I didn't end up with him.
	You know, there's instability.
	He was romantic.
	He was romantic in a lot of ways.
	So when did he quit his job in banking?
	Was it before they got divorced?
	No, it was actually after.
	So they can't have been the instability thing if he was still working in banking, right?
	Right. Yeah.
	I think she may have saw it coming.
	She may have realized that he wasn't He wasn't long for that position.
	Well, unless he downscaled because he had financial obligations to his ex-wife.
	But I know we're kind of theorizing in a vacuum here.
	Was he a player?
	I mean, do you think he might have wandered off the reservation as far as monogamy goes?
	No. No, I don't believe that.
	I don't have any evidence Of that at all.
	I never felt like he would cheat on me or her.
	Right. Okay. And his...
	It's funny to think, eh?
	You know, because people in our memories, they kind of get stuck back like flies in amber or mosquitoes in amber because it's funny to think.
	I think about this occasionally.
	Like, oh, you know, just about everybody I knew...
	Well, I think everybody who I knew who was old when I was young is dead now.
	And, you know, the people that I knew who were kids...
	You know, they're adults.
	And some of them are sort of middle-aged.
	You know, it's a sort of time marches on scenario.
	And I just recently reconnected with a friend of mine from university.
	And yeah, you know, time keeps chugging along.
	So it's funny to think that this 60-year-old girl now is like in her mid-20s or whatever, right?
	But how was she and his relationship with her back then?
	Well, he would spend weekends with her and take her fishing and hang out with her.
	He seemed to be a loving father.
	He did what he could to make her a bedroom in his current rental.
	I helped him with that a little bit, make it a girly, girly room.
	But I didn't I wasn't shocked.
	I'd been around a lot of people with children, and he seemed to have a very normal relationship with her.
	Well, except for the old divorce, which is not great.
	And it's funny, too, because I hate to say all this kind of stuff, but I'm going to say it anyway, because this is obviously a conversation about frankness, but rental.
	Yeah, that's not good.
	That's not good. I remember reading And it really stuck with me for a variety of reasons.
	And look, there's exceptions to all of this.
	But I remember reading this thing where they said, any man who's seen on a bus after the age of 30 has a failure in life.
	And it's the same thing with the rental kind of thing.
	I mean, women are nesters.
	Especially if they want kids, like you have a, I guess, half a handful of kids, right?
	So if you want kids, rental is not particularly appealing, right?
	Because... You know, the thing could be converted to a condo.
	You could end up out on your butt.
	Leases might not get renewed.
	You've got neighbors. You've got strange cooking smells.
	All kinds of things, right? Right.
	And so they had the rental stuff and a lot of time in the woods.
	It reminds me of another friend I had in college.
	He ended up out west and he was going to college and He was dating this girl and he's like, you know, I just, she won't commit to me.
	She'll date me, but she won't actually commit to the relationship.
	Like she won't sort of say we're exclusive and it's permanent and so on.
	So I asked a little bit more about his living arrangements and he'd had the bright idea of saving money on rent by living in an abandoned school bus and showering at the gym.
	And I'm like, you having trouble getting her to commit?
	Commit to what? The school bus in the woods?
	Come on, man. Like, learn a little bit about female nature.
	But anyway, that's neither here nor there.
	But no, I kind of get, I've seen this kind of stuff before where men are like, but I'm cool and I'm hip and I'm romantic.
	And it's like, yes, and that's great for sex, but not so great for actually raising a family.
	Yeah, it's funny how the instinct kicks in.
	Oh, absolutely. And, I mean, we're only here because it does kick in.
	Like, we're only here as a species, as human beings, because women gritted their teeth and went for a guy with resources rather than just charm, right?
	Yes. Yeah.
	That's true. All right.
	So, you would break up with the guy, and what would bring you back together?
	Oh, I suppose loneliness.
	Yeah. Yeah, just loneliness.
	Just wanting somebody to hang out with, watch a movie with.
	You know, I was newly employed in my profession and I guess I was looking to nest and looking around and not finding what I was looking for.
	I just kept coming back to the man who I knew would be there For a quiet Saturday night.
	He wasn't going anywhere.
	Well, that was both a plus and a minus, right?
	Yes. Okay.
	Now, again, you don't have to answer this because it's personal, but I'm just going to throw out my observation that You do have to be a little bit careful of people who have strong compensating mechanisms.
	It's not always the case, right?
	But guys who are super, super funny may sometimes be making up for something.
	Guys who are super charming, romantic, and all these little gestures, they might be making up for something And guys who are particularly skilled and good in bed might also be making up for something.
	Again, you don't have to answer.
	I've just pointed that out as a general observation.
	Not that any of these things, of course, are bad in and of themselves, but they're just things to keep an eye on in life as a whole.
	It's like the woman who cares enormously about her appearance might be making up for a couple of personality flaws, a couple of cracks in the old diamond that might widen over time.
	So you were together...
	With Raul, right, the lover.
	And I'm always curious, where did you meet him if he was so much older?
	Was he back in college for his new career?
	Well, actually, it was during college.
	We worked at the same store for a number of years, and I didn't know him romantically at that point, but I knew him.
	And so then we went our separate ways, and he got married, and I quit the place that we were working together to To begin my teaching career.
	So you knew him back when he was a student before he went and became a banker guy?
	Yes. So you kind of stayed in touch?
	No, not at all.
	We were co-workers for a few years, but that was the extent of our initial contact.
	Years later, when our paths crossed again, that's when we began dating, after his divorce and so on.
	I'm sorry, I just missed that bit. A few years later, what happened?
	A few years later, our paths crossed again.
	That's when we started dating.
	I was in no way the reason for his divorce.
	I just want to make that clear.
	I knew him after he was divorced.
	Right. And were you attracted to him when you were working together?
	Yeah, yeah. He was dating somebody else at the time, but I always thought he was He was very cute and funny and tall and handsome, of course, good looking.
	Right, okay. All right, so if you can let me know a little bit about the overlap period.
	The overlap period?
	Between Raoul and Bob.
	Okay, well, I was dating, oh, I've dated probably seriously in my life four or five men.
	And, um, I had my heart broken, uh, by one man in particular who moved out of state and, uh, that was very painful.
	And so I guess I, I was very hesitant to, um, have that happen again.
	And what, what, how old were you and what happened with him?
	Um, I was, uh, I was, let's see, I was 21, 22 years old when I met, um, another teacher and, uh, Instantly, like, lightning bolt attraction.
	And we dated for approximately five, six years, and he moved out of state.
	And I really believed that this man was going to ask me to marry him and move with him.
	I helped him move out of state, but he just left me.
	And that was very painful.
	So you guys were still going out when he moved out of state, but then long distance he just pulled the Velcro?
	Yes, yes.
	And do you know why? He was a very religiously committed man, and I was not probably as Christian as he wanted me to be.
	But he knew that for like a half decade, right?
	Yes, yes. He worked very hard on me to make me a believer and to make me as devoted as he was.
	And it's not that I'm not a Christian, it's just that I wasn't cut from the same cloth, I guess.
	But yes, when he moved out of state, it was very painful for me to realize that he didn't want me, that I was not marriage material for him.
	I have a couple thoughts about that.
	Is it particularly Christian to string a woman along for a half decade?
	Absolutely not. Yeah, I'm not sure that he was quite as Christian as he claimed to be.
	Yeah, yeah. That's what my family says to me as well.
	It doesn't help with the pain, though.
	It was a very painful thing for me.
	Well, I'll tell you how.
	I mean, again, obviously it's your life, your heart, your history, but if you had gotten married to that guy, you know, I guarantee you that's not the last time that kind of hypocrisy and control would have shown up.
	Yes, I believe you're right.
	All right. Okay, so, and I'm trying to sort of figure out the, because you said that guy was four or five years?
	Yeah, yeah. So, where was that in your dating timeline?
	Because I think we were talking late teens, early 20s that you were going out with Raul for two years.
	Actually, I was in my mid-20s.
	Oh, mid-20s in college?
	Yeah, after college, right.
	I was pursuing my master's degree when I was dating Raul.
	Raul, sorry. I know, I know.
	It's tough, right? Oh, so the other guy was, the faux Christian was earlier?
	Yes, yeah.
	It was actually kind of at the same time.
	I don't want to paint the wrong picture.
	I wasn't sleeping with all of these men at the same time, but there was overlap between Raul and the Christian and my current husband.
	Or approximately, I would say from about 1994 to 1998, a lot of breakups and get-back-togethers.
	Trying to figure things out where we stood.
	So there were three men in the picture, and the Christian man is the one that I was just heartbroken over.
	And I told myself at the time I was not going to allow that to happen again.
	I wasn't going to be so pulled into a relationship that my heart would be compromised.
	So when he moved away, I had Raul and Bob in the picture.
	Was feeling the need to make a decision.
	And there was overlap in the dating.
	Are you saying that there...
	Well, we know that with Raul and Bob, there was overlap in the sexual activity.
	Was that the case with Raul and the Christian guy?
	No, because he had moved away.
	But when he'd moved away, you were dating Raul before you had broken things up with the Christian?
	No, not before, but it wasn't long after.
	Okay. So that's not overlap as far as I can see.
	Right, right. I guess it was overlapping the fact that my heart was broken and Raul was there.
	I'm sorry. That seems a bit fudgy, and I'm just trying to sort of...
	There's a reason why I'm asking all of this stuff, which I'll get to, but...
	Because you had said that there was overlap between Raul and the Christian?
	You know, there may have been.
	It's all kind of convoluted in my mind.
	I did go down to meet him a few times when he moved away.
	To visit with him.
	So when I initially met Raul, we weren't dating.
	We were, I guess, just kind of hanging out.
	There was not a lot of sexual activity.
	Wait, I'm sorry.
	You weren't dating, but there wasn't a lot of sexual activity?
	You know, my history, my memories are not clear, to tell you the truth, Stefan.
	No, no, that's perfectly fine.
	If it's clear that it's not clear, that's totally fine with me.
	I just don't want to be clear if clarity is to be had, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, I understand.
	I tend to be on the prudish side of sex when it comes to that.
	I felt the need to be monogamous while I was dating, even though my heart was being torn apart.
	And that put me in a very painful position when I started dating Raul.
	I didn't want to go whole hog.
	I wanted to just hang out with him and I was still kind of bleeding from the Christian moving away.
	And it's usually true that if you're looking at close to a half-decade relationship, it's not a snip.
	You know, it's more of a slow sanding in terms of the end of the relationship because everybody's loathe to give up that kind of investment, right, in time.
	Because if it can work out, that'd be fantastic.
	So usually it's not...
	It's not just like you have a conversation and it's over, and it's usually like, oh, things aren't working, and it's like trying to saw your foot out of some sort of shell, some sort of clam at the bottom of the ocean, right?
	I mean, it's usually not a simple break.
	Exactly, exactly. We would have long phone conversations, and we would meet halfway for dinner, and I'm sure he was just trying to make his decision as well as Break it off.
	He could have been a lot more clear with me because he was stringing me along.
	But it is convoluted when the breakup happens like that.
	Well, a lot of times as well, I mean, if you were, let's just say, dating or in a romantic orbit with Raoul, right?
	So you've been attracted to him before and you were hanging out with him while going through the breakup with the Christian.
	You know, there is this term, the emotional affair kind of thing, which I think has some real validity to it.
	But the other thing, too, of course, is that there are a lot of people who don't like to break up unless they have someone else that they can date.
	Or potentially date or is in that arena.
	Otherwise, you're kind of staring at a bit of a canyon, right?
	Right, right.
	And Raoul may have been that guy with the ex.
	That could be, yes.
	Okay, so then you're on again, off again with Raoul for two years, a bit of overlap with the Christian Fellow, and then where do you meet Bob?
	A blind date.
	My best friend's sister knew him from college, and so...
	He was from out of town, so we met up at his college.
	It was a blind date.
	And immediately I realized, you know, he's...
	He was not my type.
	I wasn't attracted to him.
	But I knew he was... Well, okay. So hang on.
	Sorry. Sorry. The not attracted part is always fascinating to me.
	Because it's a very complicated thing, right?
	Especially not... So what...
	Was he physically not attractive?
	Was he short? Was he...
	I mean, obviously, bald is a huge plus.
	So was he...
	Like, did he have hair? Which is, you know, a massive negative for women.
	What was it in particular that had you not...
	You know, what they say, chemistry or the tingles or whatever.
	I don't know.
	I wish I could put my finger on it because I would change it now, you know.
	But he, you know, he is, he is my current husband.
	He's tall and handsome in a farm boy kind of a way.
	Oh, that sort of good old Brad Pitt Midwestern earthiness?
	Yeah, yeah. He may not bring you flowers, but he's the guy you want when you get a flat tire.
	Yeah. Yes.
	Slightly more practical in many ways, but all right.
	It's hard to explain that attraction, you know, the pheromones or the chemistry, however you...
	No, no, no, no, no. It's not, no, no, no, no.
	I can't give you the mystery soup of the witch's brew of that stuff.
	There usually is something pretty particular.
	So he was tall, handsome.
	So, I mean, as far as physicality goes, that's not, there was no big stumbling blocks, right?
	He doesn't have some giant goiter coming out of his left eyeball, right?
	Yeah. Right, right.
	Okay, so as far as, on a sort of 1 to 10 back in the day, you'd said that Raul was like an 8, 8 and a half, and where would you put your current husband back then?
	Probably about a 7. Okay, so yeah, good looking guy and all that.
	Sure. Was it, you know, the one thing that's kind of hypnotic about romantic guys, Jackie, is they really focus on you.
	And that can be pretty disarming, right?
	Like you said, he did all these wonderful romantic gestures.
	You know, he did something with feathers that I can't quite recall, but was not sexual.
	I quite remember that part. You know, he's got poetry and all of that charm stuff.
	And it's kind of one way, right?
	I don't know if you were quoting poetry to him.
	You didn't mention it, right? So they kind of really, really, that's part of the hypnosis of the hyper-romantic character is they really focus on you.
	And it's kind of dreamy, right?
	Because you get attention paid to you and you know the person is thinking about ways to make you happy.
	There's a certain amount of smug self-satisfaction in that.
	And again, I'm not dismissing nice notes and romantic gestures and flowers.
	It's all lovely stuff. But if you're kind of used to being paid attention to in that way, then when you meet a more practical man...
	He's more looking for a partnership than idolatry, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, I think you nailed it on the head, yes.
	So he's like, yeah, you know, you're great, I'm great.
	Let's see what we can work out together.
	And you're like, wait, where are the rose petals?
	Where's the worship? Where's the pedestal, right?
	Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
	All right. Now, as far as conversation goes...
	The romantic guy will usually try to find out what you want to talk about and do that.
	Whereas the more practical guy will generally just talk about what he thinks and feels without trying to pander slash manipulate or whatever.
	I mean, it's fine once in a while.
	But as far as conversation goes with Bob, how did that work out at the beginning?
	Well, at the beginning, it was fine.
	We found a lot to talk about.
	We obviously had these friends in common.
	And... He's from a farming family.
	I grew up on a farm.
	We were both very low-maintenance people, and I found that attractive, that he was low-maintenance, not a GQ kind of charmer, but somebody that really knows how to work hard.
	And it's funny too, just for those who are Like really young.
	Because there are a lot of tragically under-competent or incompetent people in the world.
	And when you meet someone who's fundamentally competent, it's kind of a shock.
	You know, it's kind of, wait, you have your stuff together?
	Wait, you have solid prospects?
	You're well-trained or educated in some particular field?
	You're You're not socially anxious, you're not manic, not depressive, not whatever, like whatever bag full of random rabbit squirrels people got running over in their brain.
	Like when you meet just a fundamentally competent person, it can be quite a shock.
	Really, Kim, it's a wonderful thing in many ways, but it usually takes a bit of getting used to.
	Are we still on?
	I'm still here.
	Okay, good. Did I put you to sleep?
	Was I way off base? I thought maybe you disconnected.
	No, I agree with you about the competency part.
	He is a very competent, rational, hardworking man that really doesn't have anything...
	There's nothing wrong with them.
	I understand. I appreciate what you're saying.
	Right. And if sexiness is to feel needed, then competent people don't need you.
	Now, it takes a while to realign sexual response from being needed to being wanted, right?
	Because a competent person may want you, but they don't need you.
	Whereas, you know, the people who are kind of half drowning and grabbing at whatever's around, like, they really need you.
	And everybody likes to be needed.
	But of course, once you realize what it's like to be wanted rather than needed, there's no temptation to go back.
	I think that's very profound.
	Hey, once in a while, I like to rip one off.
	Okay, so... If you weren't attracted to him in particular, Jackie, but Bob was attracted to you, then he must have done something to turn this around, right?
	He pursued me very hard.
	All right, what did he do?
	Well, he would drive down to see me all the time and call me.
	I felt at a certain point in our relationship that I just didn't want to continue.
	And that's when he showed up unexpectedly at our family cottage.
	Told me that I needed to talk to him face to face.
	He was just relentless.
	He was very tenacious and persistent.
	And I guess he just broke me down after a while.
	What a ways away the stone!
	You know, looking back, that's how I felt.
	It was like he would not take no for an answer.
	And when he proposed, I was very hesitant.
	And that was a That was extremely uncomfortable for both.
	Sorry, I bookmarked the proposal and I want to get back to that, but if we can rewind for a sec.
	So when you first met him and you, this setup, right?
	Listen, I'm a big fan of setups.
	I mean, if there are people in your family or people who are friends who think someone's going to be good for you, man, give it a shot.
	Give it a shot because, as you said, you know, you share the same friends, which means some values are going to automatically be in common and it's way better than the garbage that happens online.
	So, when you first met him and you weren't attracted to him, was it like, you know, the dreaded firm handshake at the end of the date?
	You know, maybe a peck on the cheek and you say, we'd like to do this again and be like, yeah, let me know, you know, as opposed to, yes, Friday.
	So, when you first met him and you weren't interested, did you sort of tell him or give him the indication that you weren't interested and he kind of went around that or over that?
	No. No, and I'm sure that's a fault of mine.
	I'm not very straightforward with that kind of communication.
	I left the door open.
	So we had an initial date and it was two hours away from my home.
	I figured I was safe to go home and it would just die on the vine.
	But when he started calling and we would set up dates and I left the door open.
	I had respect for him, and I assumed that I wanted to play the relationship out to see if maybe something developed, if maybe I developed an attraction to him.
	Well, it's funny, you know, this is a...
	I don't mean to explain women to women, but I have seen this...
	Battle, right?
	The battle. And men have the battle too.
	So this is right. And the battle is between, if you don't mind me putting it somewhat crudely, between what your sexual organs want and what your eggs want.
	Right? And men have the same thing, right?
	It's what your penis wants as opposed to, you know, what your sperm wants, which is a quality woman who's going to be a great partner in helping to raise children and all that kind of stuff.
	It's the hot versus stable thing.
	Tension, right? You've probably seen this hot, crazy matrix online and so on.
	And so with this guy, in terms of leaving things open, your eggs are like, come on, give him a chance.
	He's stable. He's got a job.
	There are no poetry books, but there's a steady paycheck.
	And the eggs don't care about the poetry.
	Maybe you're... Lust cares about the poetry, but the eggs are like, yeah, we want a still bank right by a waterfall without too many fish so that we can spawn, right?
	And this tension between the eggs and the lust is a big deal.
	It used to be fairly well understood, and this has kind of gone by the wayside, and I really wish it hadn't because, again, both genders have this Tension between lust and procreation and It's a significant one and and you know civilization not no pressure This decisions are long in the past, but you know civilization kind of hangs on the balance with that stuff Yeah, that's exactly it.
	That's exactly it and so I was attracted to his stability to his and I had my own stable job I was employed full-time as a teacher.
	I you know, I wasn't needing somebody to I bought my own house.
	I didn't need somebody to build all that for me.
	I did it myself. No, you did though.
	Come on. You want to have kids?
	You want to stay home with kids? You want to breastfeed?
	Someone's got to bring home the bacon, right?
	That's true. I mean, so yeah, if we didn't reproduce, we didn't have babies who were so ridiculously dependent upon us, and women didn't have to breastfeed, and babies didn't cry half the night, I mean, yeah, sure.
	I mean, none of us would be here, but it would be, you know, we could talk about those things.
	But, and again, even if you, you know, your reptile brain, right, the sort of essence of your femininity, doesn't know that it's the 21st century, right?
	It has no clue. It has no clue.
	And therefore, you're still going to yearn for stability.
	But at the same time, stability is less exciting.
	It's less lusty, if that makes sense.
	And so, yeah, this is the tension that we all face.
	Yeah. Well, I was caught in that classic trap then.
	So you're giving him a chance, hoping that you're going to develop an attraction for him because...
	Oh, that's interesting. Okay, let's go back to Raul for a second because we talked earlier about how Raul kind of needed you.
	So by putting Bob in the position of having to pursue you in a semi-stalkerish fashion, you were checking that he really needed you too, right?
	He wasn't showing it through the romance, but maybe you could have him show it through just showing up and calling all the time.
	Well, perhaps. It's a possibility.
	All right. Patterns.
	I'm always looking for patterns. Now, so how long did he have to pursue you before you became a steady item and monogamous and all that?
	Well, we dated for about two years.
	Well, no, but before you started really dating, because, you know, there was a bit where it's like, yeah, okay, we'll have a date or whatever, but you weren't really thinking it was going to go anywhere.
	I would say it was a month or two.
	And then when did he show up at your family cottage?
	Because that wasn't within the month or two, I assume.
	You'd be going out for a while and then you decided to break it off?
	Yeah, yeah. And that would be...
	It was probably about four or five months.
	There was a lot going on in my life at the time.
	My father was dying of cancer and my family was dealing with that.
	I quit my job to actually...
	I tend to my dad, and there was a lot going on.
	And Bob, I suppose he was a stable force in my life, even though I kept trying to push him away.
	I blame pushing him away on the fact that my heart had been broken by this Christian man.
	And how long between the breakup of the Christian man and meeting Bob?
	About a year. Yeah, and this is, I mean, I've said this before, I'll say it again, because, you know, there's always new listeners, but, man, you know, if you're uncertain about a relationship, certainly after a little while, and I'd put that in the months earlier, You know, every step you take in the wrong direction is just another step you have to take back, right?
	Because the average, the sort of rule of thumb is it takes half as long to get over a relationship as the length of the relationship.
	A relationship for two years takes a year to get over it.
	A relationship for ten years takes five years to get over it.
	And this is why pursuing these maybe relationships is just so disastrous.
	Like, we live when we're young like we're immortal, but we sure as hell aren't.
	Yeah. Yeah, and for women it's a lot shorter Period.
	Fertility and all that, I know.
	I'm afraid I can't talk about that anymore.
	Twitter has informed me in no uncertain terms that I am not allowed to talk about a woman's fertility window.
	I'm also not allowed to wear lipstick.
	Well, I'm happy about that.
	And I'm sorry to hear about your dad.
	That's a hell of a thing. How long did he take to pass?
	Well, he was diagnosed in 91 and he passed away in 98.
	Wow. Yeah, it was a long, long, hard battle.
	Right, and of course, that's really complicated because you don't want it to be shorter, but at the same time, man, that's a long time.
	Right, yeah, yeah.
	My sympathies, my real sympathies to you and your family about all of that.
	Okay, so Bob is pursuing you, and where's Raul in this time frame?
	Well, he was always around.
	He was... In the same town as I. And so, like I said, when I was lonely on a Saturday night, he was the go-to man for me to He didn't always end up in sex or in bed or whatever.
	He was just a good guy to watch a movie with or make a meal with or just hang out.
	Sometimes I would go to his place of work and just hang out with him.
	After quitting his banking job, he kind of floated around, but he found a job at a trail, monitoring a local trail, so it was pretty low-key.
	I could hang out with him there.
	Wait, he went from banking to look in the bushes?
	Yeah, I told you he was an outdoorsy man.
	He pursued that. Come on, what could be more fun than raising a family in a pup tent?
	Is that a bear? Wow.
	Well, you know, I gotta tell you, I mean, in a weird way, kudos to him, you know?
	I mean, kudos to him. I mean, whether it was driven by wanting to crush his income as a result of divorce settlements or whatever, or just, you know, I would rather be in the woods than in an office, you know, in some vertical ice cube tray sealed off from the elements 40 stories in the air, you know? In a weird way, kind of kudos for him.
	You know, I mean, I don't imagine he, well, did he get remarried and have more kids or what?
	No, he never did.
	That's a bit of a price to pay.
	It's one of the prices you have to pay.
	I'd love to spend my life just traveling.
	I'd love to spend my life just roaming around the world, interviewing people, like stuff I did in Poland, stuff I did in California.
	But, you know, I'm a dad, I'm a husband, got my responsibilities.
	I mean, it's a challenge.
	All right. Okay. So Raul's floating around.
	Does Bob know about Raul?
	Yes, they knew about each other.
	And so you're dating Bob, and you're like, you say, yeah, you know, I hang out and sometimes sleep with Raul.
	I wasn't quite that painfully honest, Stefan, but I think they probably both knew.
	No, no, no, wait, wait, wait, okay.
	I think we hit something on the road here.
	We're just going to get out of the car and have a look back on the street, see what we hit.
	All right. Yeah. Because you said they knew about each other.
	And if you said to Bob, oh, I have this friend named Raul that I occasionally hang out with.
	And Bob's like, all right.
	But did Bob know that Raul was an ex-lover that you spent solitary time with and sometimes slept with?
	I think your answer is no to that, right?
	Yeah. Now, this is still painful to talk about, right?
	It is. It's...
	I... I've always thought of myself as a principled person, you know, and my dating life back in the 90s was not always straightforward and clean and black and white because when the heart gets involved, it was a tough, you know, a tough time.
	Oh, man, you are having trouble facing this one.
	I mean, that's quite, you know, it's like trying to grab an octopus under the water and you get a face full of ink.
	Man, that was a whole bunch of cloudy...
	Justification and, I mean, listen, it's a long time ago now and, you know, I mean, let's just deal with the facts, right?
	So you were hiding your side piece from Bob.
	Yes. All right.
	And you were hiding Bob from Raul, right?
	In other words, you may have said to Raul, I have a friend named Bob, not I'm dating with and I assume from time to time sleeping with Bob, right?
	Yeah, I think Raul is more open and knowledgeable about Bob than the other way around.
	What does that mean?
	Did you tell him? I was pretty straightforward with him, yeah.
	I told him when he proposed, for example.
	You told Raul when Bob proposed?
	Yes. And, well, obviously Raul was like, well, that's a drag, but let's still sleep together, right?
	Well, he produced his own proposal at that point.
	You know, you're a smart woman, and you're an educated woman, and, you know, listen, people are going to be ragging about this, but, you know, she's coming clean, right?
	I mean, most people go through life never coming clean about this stuff.
	But I have to be frank with you.
	I mean, given the qualities of your decisions back in the day, I don't have any pictures of you, so I'm going to need an honest self-assessment of how pretty you were in your 20s.
	Well, like I said, I'm very low maintenance.
	I stay in shape.
	I've always been very athletic.
	I suppose on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd be an 8.
	Okay, so very pretty and athletic and so on.
	I'm not sure about the low maintenance side of things though.
	I mean, when you're overlapping, that's high maintenance by definition.
	Okay, so... Bob didn't know about Raul, but before Bob proposed, did Raul know that you were dating and sleeping with Bob?
	Yes. And what did he say about that?
	Did he find out, or did you tell him?
	I told him.
	He was...
	I suppose because he was divorced, he was just...
	He was okay, right?
	He knew that Bob was trying to get me to move and marry and settle down with him.
	So Raul was okay with that.
	He was probably still hurting from his own divorce.
	So he was okay sharing you sexually with Bob?
	I've never really thought about that, but I guess...
	We're just talking about...
	We'll get to the spiritual side of things, but we're just talking about the mammal side of things, right?
	Yeah. Okay. What did you want out of Raul when you told him about Bob?
	To tell you the truth now, with hindsight being 20-20, I wanted him to find a more stable job, make himself a more...
	A stable life so that we could get married and raise a family and not be in rentals.
	So you wanted him to fight for you?
	Right. I wanted him to grow up.
	Right. I'm not entirely sure that you're in a position at this time in your life to tell other people to grow up though, right?
	Because you're kind of playing two guys at the same time and, you know, there's a lot of manipulation.
	There's a lot of withholding of information and outright lying and so on.
	So I'm not sure you can wave a big magic wand to other people, frankly, and say you guys need to grow up.
	But again, we're talking about when you were younger and, you know, when we're in our 20s, we're all kind of half retarded.
	So again, I'm not trying to bag on you or just looking at the sort of bold facts, so to speak, right?
	Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
	I understand that.
	Looking back, my mistakes.
	We're talking about what you wanted.
	Because when a woman tells you, in my experience, when a woman tells you she's attracted to or interested, if she doesn't want you to fight for her, she'll just leave you.
	But if she tells you, this is just words to the wise, if a woman tells you, I'm attracted to another guy, but she doesn't leave you, she wants you to win.
	She wants you to mirror or match the virtues that have her interested in the other guy so that she can get what to her is the best of both worlds, right?
	You wanted Raoul's romantic side, his sensitivity, his sense of humor and all that, and you wanted Bob's stability, right?
	Exactly. I mean, this is the male fantasy of the librarian who takes off her glasses and turns into Sofia Vergara or whatever it is, right?
	Yeah. I mean, generally, you don't get the same in both because they tend to...
	It's not impossible, but, you know, a lot of hot women are very stable, but, you know, let's not go into the percentages or numbers, but it ain't 100, right?
	All right, so you tell Raoul about Bob.
	You don't tell Bob about Raoul, which means that you want Raoul to be more like Bob because he still makes your lady parts hit lower orbit, right?
	Yes. Right.
	But he doesn't do that, right?
	Right. So he basically consents to being King of Planet Cuck, right?
	Well... Or does he?
	Well, could you clarify what you mean by that?
	Well, I mean, I'm just, you know, from my thoughts, I don't have any experience in this, but if you were my on-again, off-again girlfriend, and you said that you were sleeping with some other guy, you'd be like, Joey doesn't share food!
	I'd be like, well, you know, good luck with the other guy, but no, I'm not...
	I'm not doing sloppy seconds.
	I'm not doing trade-offs. I'm like none of that.
	Like that will not occur, right?
	So he didn't say that.
	He didn't say I'm not dating you if you're sleeping with another guy, right?
	That's not gonna happen. Not gonna happen, right?
	Right. So he consented in a sense to be this side piece knowingly and all that, right?
	Yeah, I think he did.
	You think he did?
	He did. Okay, good.
	Listen, and I hate to jump on people's words, but, you know, if we're building a bridge, I need each prior piece to stand, because we've got to back and fix it, right?
	So, okay. So, but what was his...
	Do you have any idea or sense, or did he tell you explicitly what he was hoping to get out of this situation with you and Bob?
	Well... Well, he was hoping to win me, but I... So he was hoping to win, and that's why he finally proposed to me after Bob proposed to me.
	But did he, I'm just curious, and I really do find this fascinating, and I just, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your frankness with this.
	Did he, this is Raul, did he change his behavior in alignment with what you found, I wouldn't say attractive, but what you found important with regards to Bob?
	Did he say, oh, okay, well, you know, maybe I can do this, maybe I can do that, or did he just, like, continue hoping that his charms would win the day?
	I think it was a former.
	He didn't really change that much.
	He was still bound and determined to find and make a living doing what he loved.
	And that meant substantially lower income.
	Less stability. I just didn't see him in a position to have a family and maintain a house and all of that.
	Because he also has obligations to his ex, and I guess if she was an engineer, maybe not financially, but certainly to his daughter, right?
	So then you've got resource competition from his daughter from his first marriage, right?
	Right, right. Yeah, I definitely saw myself as the income earner if I had It's messy and it's complicated.
	Listen, I can understand why he picked up some E.E. Cummings books.
	He's got a bit of a backpack of an anvil as he's hiking up the dating hill, right?
	Yeah, you could say that.
	Bob didn't know about Raul, and do you know what it was that caused, I mean, other than your, you know, charm and intelligence and conversation skills, do you know what it was that triggered Bob's proposal?
	I think he just, we had been dating for a while, more than a year, and I think he just assumed it was time.
	He just, he's a stable, like I said, he's a very stable person.
	A hard-working man, and he just figured it was time to either pull the plug or walk away, although I don't think he would have ever walked away.
	And do you know if he had any suspicions about you?
	I mean, he knew about Raul, if I remember rightly.
	Do you know if he had any suspicions?
	He did know, right? Yes, he knew.
	But he didn't know that you were sleeping with Raul, but he knew that...
	Did he know Raul was one of your exes?
	Yes, yes. Okay, this is another thing, too.
	Like, don't hang out with exes.
	This is just a general rule.
	Like, just don't... There's a reason why it ended, and it's kind of dysfunctional, and it kind of prevents people from moving on, and it's just...
	It's not good as a whole.
	Like, if you break up, just break up.
	It's like, you know, if you quit your job...
	Don't go to the office party, you know?
	I mean, it's just, you know, like, and so, you know, again, this is just men to the men in the audience.
	Maybe it's men to women in the audience, too.
	But, you know, do not.
	You know, I mean, I can't imagine dating a girl who say, oh, yeah, no, I was hanging out with my ex-boyfriend this last weekend.
	I'm like, well, good luck with that.
	Right, right. It's just not good.
	I mean, this is not what we're built for.
	It's split focus.
	It's, you know, having two irons in the fire, so to speak.
	And of course, for women in particular, you know, this idea of monkey branching that you're trying to find the most quality man and you won't commit until and it's fine to have men battle for it or whatever.
	So, yeah, just don't, you know, don't do that.
	So it's Bob is a smart man, I assume, right?
	He's married to you. And so I would assume that if he's got stuff floating around where you're hanging out, like, you know, you hang out with this guy for the weekend, an ex-boyfriend, and he says, hey, what did you do over the weekend?
	You say, I hung out with my ex-boyfriend, right?
	Yeah. Because you said he doesn't have any problems.
	I'm not entirely sure about that.
	I'm not totally sold on that.
	Because a lack of productive jealousy is a problem, in my view, right?
	Yeah. You're not setting limits for yourself, and what that means is you desperately need someone to set limits for you.
	You need some guy to stand up and say, listen, crazy pinball lady, this isn't how it's going to work.
	Like, no, absolutely not.
	If you ever have any contact with your ex-boyfriend again, like, I'll sit here and watch you send the text saying, I'm sorry, I have a boyfriend.
	I'm not hanging out with you.
	Right? Send that text.
	And, you know, like, I mean, to me, it would be even like if you're making that decision, you're probably not good marriage material.
	But, you know, let's say that you want to, it'd be like, no, no, no, listen, you're obviously not able to manage your own behavior in a consistent and principled way.
	So someone's going to have to bungee in and set things straight, right?
	Right. I reached that conclusion myself and I drew the line and I broke it off completely with Raul when I decided to marry Bob.
	Okay, so Bob proposes and then you run to Raul and say, hey, Bob proposed!
	And then he was like, no, marry me!
	Or something like that, right? Yes, yes.
	Right. Which is kind of an auction, you understand, right?
	Yeah. And how long did this...
	And did you tell Bob about Raul's proposal?
	No, I did not.
	Right. Which indicates who you wanted to win.
	Yeah. Okay, so how long did this back and forth go on for?
	It probably lasted a month.
	I, at that point, realized I was pregnant, and I just had to draw the line.
	And so I decided I had to go with stability over romance.
	And I assume that you were sleeping with both men during this period, and did you have any suspicions as to who it might be?
	Was like it 60-40, 70-30?
	No. It could have been either one.
	It was a very rough time.
	Oh, it's horrible. I have sympathy, of course, looking back in hindsight.
	I mean, I'm not sure I would have had a whole bunch at the time, but I mean, looking back over the span of years, I mean, it's an absolutely ghastly situation, and I'm sure if you could pull the switch, and I know that you love your son and all that, but without this complication, I mean, life over the last 20 years would have been quite a bit more peaceful, right?
	Yeah, yeah. Okay, now I guess the big million dollar question, Jackie, is this.
	Was this your first pregnancy?
	No. And when had you been pregnant in the past?
	With a Christian man.
	Oh, and was it a miscarriage or an abortion?
	It was an abortion. And he knew about it?
	No, no, he didn't.
	No, so...
	A lot of skeletons in the closet, huh?
	Well, I guess one small one.
	Was it during the time of imminent breakup or during the breakup period?
	You're kind of fading in.
	I'm sorry? Oh, I'm sorry.
	It sounded like your voice was fading out.
	Yeah, sorry. I just asked if with the Christian guy, the pregnancy and abortion occurred during the breakup period?
	Yes, yes. I didn't want to use it to snag him.
	He was moving away, and I was hoping for a marriage proposal from him.
	But when it became evident that he didn't want me, I had an abortion.
	So you got pregnant during the period where the relationship was hanging in the balance, and when he decided not to marry you, you got the abortion?
	Yes. So, and I sympathize with that, of course, right?
	But the pattern seems to me pretty clear, and it's your life, your history, your body, so tell me where I go astray, of course, but you got pregnant both times during a time of extreme relationship crises.
	Yeah, you could say that.
	And do you have any memory of wanting to get pregnant during these two times?
	No, I absolutely did not.
	But then how did it happen? If you were able to do 10 years of sexual activity without getting pregnant, it only happens twice during times of extreme emotional crises, how did it occur?
	Did you have unprotected sex?
	Well, I was using the pill, so that was my contraceptive method.
	I was on the pill the whole time.
	Well, but you might have forgotten, right?
	Yeah, I very well could have.
	I hate to sort of put you in the dinosaur category, but it's the old Jurassic Park thing, right?
	Life will find a way. Life finds a way.
	And the brain is very good at, you know, a pregnancy would be pretty useful right now.
	Let's not remember overly about those pills by the bedside, right?
	I was never one to do that.
	I couldn't.
	I would not trap a man that way.
	No, no, no. I get that.
	You know, we are only one inhabitant in our bodies, though, right?
	You know, we have our sort of conscious mind, our conscious decisions, but there's many, many layers.
	To who we are. And the body has its way of getting things done that we can negotiate with, but we can't dominate.
	So, again, I'm just putting that out there.
	I mean, it's just a possibility.
	All right. So, for about a month, you're kind of back and forth between Bob and Raoul.
	But Raul is not making the kind of changes that you need him to make to feel secure, right?
	That's correct, yes.
	And do you know when in this month, well, I guess it would be during the time of your fertility cycle, but do you have some sort of idea when in the month the pregnancy, or I guess the conception may have occurred?
	Yes, I do. That sounds like a happy memory.
	Well, yeah, I mean...
	I cared for both men a great deal.
	The time with Raul was very sweet and very special.
	So yeah, I do remember.
	I would challenge this though, Jackie.
	I would challenge that you cared for both men a great deal.
	Differently, but I did.
	I mean, I get what you're saying, and I'm not saying you didn't care for them, but sleeping with two men at the same time, when both have proposed to you, you know one of them is going to get his heart just shredded.
	One of them is going to have your decision roll into his pup tent like a hand grenade, right?
	Right. And that was a situation that you brought about by not restraining your behavior, right?
	Right. So, I mean, you were going to do...
	To one of these men what was done to you by the Christian, except perhaps even worse.
	Because there was no proposal involved with the Christian guy, right?
	Right. So, I mean, again, I'm not saying you didn't care for them, but in terms of how this was going to play out, it was going to be really bad.
	Really, really bad for one of them.
	Yeah. And I guess in this case it turned out to be Raul.
	Okay. So you accepted Bob's proposal, and I guess, was it before or after you accepted Bob's proposal that you broke things off with Raul?
	Was it before or after?
	I'm sorry, can you say the question again?
	Sure, no problem. By the way, how are you doing?
	Do you need a drink of water, or do you want to talk about how you're feeling?
	Because I know we're kind of barreling through a lot of sensitive stuff here.
	No, I'm fine.
	Thank you. I'm just grateful the camera's not on right now.
	You're grateful what? That the camera is not on right now.
	Right, right, right. No, I get it. I get it.
	Okay, good. Well, I appreciate that.
	So, did you break things off with Raul before or after you accepted Bob's proposal?
	After, I believe.
	It was all kind of the same time period within a few months.
	Yeah. Right, because if you broke things off with Raul, and then, for whatever reason, the proposal with Bob didn't work out, that would have been pretty bad, right?
	Right. Okay, so you accepted Bob's proposal, but Bob didn't know that you'd been sleeping with Raul, right?
	Right. Right.
	I mean, that's pretty bad, right?
	Because you accepted a guy's proposal having slept with another guy a week or two prior or whatever, right?
	And he didn't know, right? Right.
	Now, if he had known, I mean, this is the interesting question, right?
	And, you know, I hate to sort of use this cliche, but the question is how needy or how whipped was he?
	Like if he had known, let's say he'd found out or you told him, you say, listen, you know, I'd really love to accept your proposal, but I did just make the squishy nasty beast with two backs with Raul just last week.
	What would he say? What would Bob say?
	Bob would have walked away.
	Right. Right.
	So you really didn't let him make that decision, right?
	Right. And I guess you wanted a pretty quick engagement, right?
	It was a very fast engagement.
	Well, no, not it was.
	You kind of needed it to be a fast engagement, right?
	Right, right. Because if I assume that they don't, I mean, they must look dissimilar enough that you knew whose baby it was right away, right?
	Yes, I did.
	So you must have been pushing for a quick engagement to lock down the deal before Bob found out that you were carrying another man's baby, right?
	Right. So how long was the engagement?
	Just a couple of months.
	There was something else involved.
	I was going overseas to finish my master's degree, so I was going to be gone for the summer.
	And so, obviously, we agreed to get married prior to that.
	Were you showing?
	Did Bob notice anything?
	Well, I told him, and so I told him a few months before we were married.
	You told him that you were pregnant?
	Yes. But you, of course, didn't tell him that it could have been roles.
	That's right. So tell me about that.
	I mean, that's a hell of a decision to make, right?
	Yeah. And tell me a little, did you tell anyone about your concerns or your fears or family members, your mom or anything?
	I told my sister.
	She's confident.
	She's my confidant.
	And she does know as well today that my son is not my husband's.
	So you told your sister that you'd been sleeping with Raul and it could be Raul's baby before you got married to Bob?
	Yes, yes.
	Oh, I'm glad. You should be glad I'm not your sister.
	Because you know what I would have done?
	What's that? Come on, you know what I would have done.
	What would I have told you to do?
	Not get married? No!
	Tell the truth. Don't strip Bob of his choice in the most important decision he's ever going to make.
	Yeah. And I would have said, you have to tell him, or I'm going to tell him.
	Which is why I guess you're glad, or maybe you wouldn't have been glad, I don't know, but that's why you're glad I'm not your sister, right?
	What did your sister say about all of this?
	Well, she is always...
	Has always been very supportive of me, and she has her own problems.
	And at the time...
	It's funny. I'm sorry to interrupt you right after I asked you, but I just want to point this out.
	The way women use the word supportive is, to me, kind of incomprehensible.
	So supportive means she was complicit and enabled this massive falsehood, right?
	Yes. She didn't require you or demand that you tell the truth.
	She was, like, willing to enable you in...
	Withholding information from the man before you got married.
	See, that to me is not supportive.
	But we don't have to get into semantics.
	I just wanted to put that out.
	The women say supportive just means like, say yes to everything that I want.
	That's not supportive. Okay, so you were not showing by the time of the marriage, is that right?
	That's right. Okay. Boy, did you have like, what are the Spanx or what do they call them?
	No, but I've always been very athletic.
	I didn't really show until probably about five months.
	You can suck it in like a middle-aged man.
	All right. So you get married and I guess, what, four to six months after you're married, the baby comes.
	Yes, yes. And did Bob have any, like, second glances?
	Well, no, because he didn't know you were sleeping with another man, right?
	Right. And you knew, right, when you saw the baby?
	When I saw the baby, I knew, and I told my husband, I told Bob at that point.
	Right, right. I confessed at that point.
	And I guess, you know, I gave him the option.
	He wanted to leave me.
	But I think he was worried about saving face.
	Sorry, he was worried about saving face.
	Well, you know, plus, you know, unless you can get an annulment, getting divorced is big, expensive, complicated, messy, multi-year process, right?
	Did we drop out? Hello?
	Hello? Yeah, I'm sorry, we just got a little Skype pickup, no biggie.
	But of course, unless you can get an annulment to your marriage, getting divorced is a big, complicated, messy endeavor, right?
	And he might still be on the hook for alimony, for child support, who knows, right?
	Yeah, again, I would not have done any of that.
	There's a reason you told him after he held the baby, right?
	The reason I told him after he held the baby was to give him the option.
	No, no. If you were interested in giving him the option, then you would have told him before you got married.
	So you waited until the government had you legally contractually bound together, right?
	And then he's gone through the whole pregnancy with you.
	He's been there in the birthing room or wherever.
	He's held the baby.
	If you wanted to give him the option, you would have told him before, right?
	Right, if I had my wits about...
	Sorry, you knew him well enough because you said to me earlier, and again, I'm not trying to catch you, but you said to me earlier that if you told him before you got married, he would have left you, but you knew him well enough to know that if you told him after the baby was born that he would stay with you and you were right about that, right? I wasn't counting on that.
	But you were right about it because he stayed.
	He did stay, yes.
	So you played the cards...
	And got what you wanted, which was the commitment of Bob to raise Raul's baby, which you wouldn't have gotten if you told him before you got married and gave birth, right?
	Yes. Okay.
	All right. Now, that must have been a hell of a conversation.
	In the hospital room?
	Was it in the hospital?
	When you saw the baby, you said, by the way, I mean, I don't want to say casually, but you said, this baby is not yours?
	Actually, I think I waited until we brought him home a few days later.
	And that's where I felt the threatening overtones of, I better keep my mouth shut.
	Yeah, I mean, I obviously don't condone aggression in personal relationships, but if there's ever a situation where I can really understand it, it would be this.
	So what happened with Bob where you felt threatened?
	I just told him, after we brought our son home, I said, this is a very painful thing for me to tell him.
	I told him that it was not his biologically.
	I told him whose baby it was.
	He doubled down on his commitment to the marriage.
	He told me to not tell anybody ever And he was very, of course, he was very angry.
	And he's never, ever done anything aggressive towards me.
	He's never raised a hand toward me.
	But at that point, I felt very threatened.
	And I did what he said.
	I kept my mouth shut. Right.
	And how long did it take for things to get back to quasi-normal with you guys?
	I suppose a couple of weeks.
	I have to tell you that it was at the end of a year of very...
	Lots of things happened that year.
	My father passed away a few months prior to my son being born.
	My mother got remarried.
	I quit my job. I moved two hours away from home for my marriage.
	And it was just a very tumultuous year.
	I got my master's.
	I graduated with my master's degree and there was so much going on that year.
	My head was spinning and I just wanted to settle down and be normal and start building a life for my son and not have anything else so destructive happen.
	And so I just gritted my teeth and I started building a home.
	You know, I stayed home that first year, and I had dinner on the table when he came home from work and, you know, built my nest, if you will.
	I didn't want to rock the boat.
	I didn't want to. I wanted to make a home, a stable home for my son and my husband.
	And so that's where my commitment was.
	And I'm going to assume, I don't know what to assume at the moment, but I would assume that one of the deals was that you never contact Raul again, right?
	That's right, and I never did.
	But he must have, well, I guess you'd gotten married, right?
	But did Raul even know you were pregnant?
	No, he did not.
	So did you break things off with Raul before you got married?
	Of course, yes, I did.
	Okay, okay. All right.
	And have you ever had any contact with Earl since?
	No, I haven't.
	Have you looked him up?
	I did recently.
	He has been remarried, but it's only in the past year.
	No other children.
	Right. Right.
	So now you have...
	A big problem, because you've committed to not say anything, but it may be important for your son to know, right?
	I mean, certainly medically, it's somewhat important, right?
	I mean, for him to know his medical history, he needs to know the biology of his origins, right?
	Right, yes.
	But I assume that the commitment with Bob to not say anything...
	There was no expiration date to that, right?
	Right. Now, if you do tell your son, I assume you would try and negotiate things with your husband, right?
	Saying, look, he's an adult now.
	He has a right to know.
	And your husband, of course, I assume, will want to say, no, no, my gosh, you know?
	This is going to destroy our family reputation.
	It's a... It's going to be tough for me.
	It's going to be tough for the other kids.
	It's going to split our family, right?
	It's like a weird kind of seismic fault that goes through the middle of the family.
	I can't imagine waking up and finding out that I'm not nearly as related to my siblings as I thought I was.
	Exactly. I want to do what's best for my son.
	I just don't know if that is the best way to go.
	Do you think that your husband would allow for The secret to come out with regards to your son?
	Because, I mean, one of the options is you say to your son, well, I guess you have to tell him before you can ask him for secrecy, but you could tell your son and then ask him for secrecy.
	Ask my son for secrecy?
	Yeah. I don't know how that would work.
	Oh, I don't know either. I mean, I'm just casting about for the various options, right?
	So you could say to your son, your biological dad is Raul, And it would be great if you didn't tell everyone.
	That's one possibility.
	Now, that's putting two burdens on him at the same time.
	One, of course, is the burden of his father, biological father, and the other is the burden of secrecy, which is kind of solving one problem and creating two more.
	Right. I would assume that if I told him that he would want to Find out about this man and have a relationship with him.
	And he was your first, and I think you said you have three others?
	Yes, yes. Now, if they find out your authority as a parent and your husband's authority as a parent, they're going to get a little bit nuked, right?
	Yes. You know, kids are always looking for hypocrisy on the part of the parents so they don't have to listen to the parents' rules, right?
	So if this comes out and you say to your children as a whole, you say, well, you know, it's important to tell the truth, what are they going to say?
	You know, we have wonderful children.
	They've never tried to...
	I've been the kind to push the rules, push the envelope.
	Well, okay, but I'll tell you what I would say if I heard about that.
	And listen, I'm not your kid, so this could be way out of bounds, but I'll just tell you, you know, my first thought would be, you have the nerve to tell me the truth, Mom, and you were much older than me, and you lied about the most important thing in your adult life.
	Yeah. Well...
	It's a possibility.
	It's a possibility, yeah.
	And, you know, we've got to map where this could go, right?
	So, as you know, there's almost no aspect of personality that is not influenced to some degree by genetics.
	Have you detected any personality aspects between your eldest son and your other children that That you think might have something to do with his father's genetics?
	He's very playful.
	He's quite a tease.
	Yeah, I see a lot in him.
	He procrastinates quite a bit as well.
	Is he drawn to the woods?
	Absolutely. He's quite an outdoorsman.
	We've encouraged that growing up.
	My husband is also an outdoorsman and we live in an area that is just perfect for both of them.
	And in the decision process, because we exchanged messages a couple months ago, what is The prime emotional driver, Jackie, at the moment for you regarding this issue.
	What has brought you back?
	Watching my son reach adulthood and watching the relationship with my husband get a little challenged at times.
	I mean, I realize that's a...
	Wait, sorry, your son's or your relationship with you?
	My son's relationship with my husband.
	Your son's? Okay. Yeah, they share a lot in common, but I think sometimes I wonder if emotionally my son would do better with his biological father.
	But is your son 20?
	Yes. You know that the father thing is kind of necessary during the child thing.
	Yes. I mean, it's not like irrelevant now, but to some degree that ship has sailed, hasn't it?
	Yeah. My husband has been a very good father to him.
	I'm not taking anything away from him.
	As he develops into his own adult, I just wonder how much he would have in common.
	And I wonder if he might benefit from knowing his biological father as an adult.
	All right. Now, this would be...
	I mean, we're just talking the short run here, right?
	The long run can be dealt with through a will, right?
	Like you die and you can tell the truth or whatever, right?
	In your will. But in the short run, clearly catastrophic for your husband, right?
	Right. Pretty destabilizing for your son, right?
	Right. Now, of course, there's another person whose life it would enormously affect, right?
	Right. Yes.
	Raoul's. Now, I don't have a massive amount of sympathy for a guy who's sharing a woman with another guy's fiance.
	So, you know, I'm not like, let's be ultra sensitive to Raoul's feelings.
	But, you know, you say he just got remarried recently.
	Yes. And suddenly, into the marriage comes something that his new wife did not bargain for, right?
	Right. Welcome to your adult son.
	And that may have financial implications.
	If your son wants to go to college, his biological dad might feel obligated, right?
	This could be tens of thousands of dollars.
	This may just be a hell of a shock, right?
	Yes. Now, it's negative for your husband.
	It's negative in the short run for your son.
	And the reason I say that is, you know, if...
	If somehow there was some extended relative he didn't know he had who left him $100,000, it would be tough to argue that that was hugely negative, right?
	But in this situation, and so the question is, would you like that news to be true or not?
	Well, for a lot of people, you know, $50,000, I mean, you know, $10 million might be destabilizing in the long run, but, you know, a smaller amount but massively significant of money, you know, if he wants to go to college, you know, hey, $50,000, $100,000 could be really, really helpful.
	Might also have him make bad decisions, but, you know, on the balance, he probably would rather have that news than not, right?
	But the question is, would he rather have this news or not?
	In the short run, the medical history stuff, unless there's something really freaky going on in Raul's family, the medical history stuff is not particularly relevant when you're young, right?
	Yeah. So it's negative for your husband.
	It's negative, at least in the short to medium run, for your son.
	It's negative for Raul, right?
	Yeah. Because that's going to be hugely destabilizing for him as well because I'm sure women do but a man is going to sit there and have such a mess and massive amount of complicated emotions because he's going to sit there and think about every single day over the last 20 years that he didn't know his son.
	All that he missed.
	Exactly. I think about that as well and what I've robbed him of.
	Right. Right.
	So, I'm happy to hear, look, I'm a big one for telling the truth, but in this situation, if you've not been telling the truth for 20 years, to a large degree, I mean, I know your husband knows, but if you've not been telling the truth for 20 years, the question is, why break it now?
	And so, make the case as to how and who this benefits to tell the truth.
	When I think of my son again, I see a lot of Raul in him, and I wonder if he would benefit knowing his biological father.
	I see how much they have in common.
	He could share.
	He could benefit from a second father in that he could have another emotional support Alright, so listen, I'm sorry to interrupt you right after I asked you, but this means, Jackie, that there's something you're not telling me about your son.
	There's got to be something significant going wrong with your son if you're considering this after 20 years.
	No, he's developing into a wonderful young man who's pursuing something he's interested in.
	He's a little, like I said in my initial email, he's An introvert, he doesn't have a lot of close friends, and I do worry about that.
	But there's nothing really other than his introversion and he's a quiet young man.
	There's nothing that I'm really concerned about.
	But given the amount of negatives associated with telling the truth about this?
	It's going to alter your children's relationship with you, I mean, irrevocably, because you can't undo it, right?
	Right. And also, here's the thing too, when someone's been lying to you for 20 years, like deep down, every time they tell you something, you say, well, she fooled me for 20 years, completely.
	It's really, I mean, it's the price, right?
	It's the price. Is that your children are going to have a tough time trusting what you say in the future because you've been very good at falsifying things to them for 20 years, right?
	Yes. And also, they're going to look at their father and they're going to say, he also lied to me for 20 years.
	So you don't think there's a benefit in just coming clean at this point?
	Well, no, no, hang on. You want to jump to conclusions, right?
	Yes. And I'm not going to tell you what to do, obviously, right?
	You know that. You know that I'm annoyingly this guy, right?
	And we're just exploring the fallout, right?
	And, you know, they say blood is thicker than water.
	I think there's some real truth in that.
	Because if you say, well, you know, I'm not really hanging out with my friend anymore, people are like, oh, that's a shame.
	But if you say, well, I'm not talking to my brother, that's a big deal, right?
	Yeah. And if you have a friend's father who was mean to you as a child and you say, I'm not hanging out with that guy anymore, people are like, good for you.
	But if you say, well, my father was mean to me as a child, I'm not seeing anymore, everybody loses their minds, right?
	Yeah. So if there is this sort of aspect that blood is thicker than water, and I think genetically, biologically, and reciprocal altruism-wise, pretty good case to be made for it, how is it going to affect...
	Your son to know that he's different from his siblings.
	And how is it going to affect them to know that he's different?
	I would like to think that our family is strong enough to withstand this.
	Wow.
	No, no, that's not what I asked.
	How is it going to affect them?
	Not, is your family going to go full Hiroshima, but how is it going to affect them?
	I think they'll be fine in the long run.
	So, the plus is that Your son is having some relational issues with his stepfather and may benefit from knowing his biological father.
	That's the major plus as far as I can see, right?
	You don't know of any medical issues that he would need to know about?
	Right, yeah. No, there's nothing medical that I think he is suffering from that he needs to know about.
	Will the topic...
	of your son's relationship with his biological father be something that your son can talk about at the family dinner table with your husband around.
	Oh I saw Raul today and we did this and we did that and you know this is what's going on and like this you understand this is like this is the biggest wound in your husband's heart right?
	Right that would be very hard for my husband.
	Right and that would be ongoing right?
	Because unless someone gets hit by a bus this is going to go on for the next 30 years right?
	Right, right. Okay.
	Again, these are just, think through the, like, where this, where the splash damage is in all of this, right?
	Yeah. Because your husband obviously can't say to your son, don't tell me about Raul, right?
	That's just more secrets, right?
	And then what's the point, right? Yeah.
	Now, will your husband allow Raul under his roof?
	Uh... I don't think so.
	So there's another restriction, right, which is Raul can't come over to visit his son?
	Right. And what's it going to do to your son's trust in women?
	That's not a question I've thought of.
	We have a very good relationship, he and I. I don't know if you have other sons, but all of them.
	I hadn't thought about that question, Stefan, to tell you the truth.
	Well, that's why you're talking to me, right?
	Because I think you kind of need a man's perspective on this, right?
	Because if a son looks at his mother...
	And says, wow, so she was sleeping with two guys before she got married.
	She lied about it. She withheld the information from our dad, and now they've both been lying to us for 20 years.
	That is just going to put the whole family in a new light in very foundational ways.
	I don't know what happens out of that, but it's a big deal.
	It's a big deal because they're going to know that women are capable of this kind of manipulation and deception.
	The fact is that women are capable of this kind of manipulation and deception, which is why we're having this conversation.
	And don't get me wrong, men are too, but we're talking about the female side of things here.
	Right. Right.
	I'm glad you bring that up because I had not thought about that repercussion.
	And that's...
	Gonna make them a little jumpy.
	Now, this may not be the end of the world because the foundational question here is, does everyone kind of know anyway?
	And by that, I don't mean the details and I don't mean who Raoul is or anything like that.
	What I mean is, if the deception is affecting everyone unconsciously anyway, then it's really in a dangerous state.
	Because it means that you're...
	Children are likely to be drawn to partners who are good liars.
	Because you and your husband are good liars, right?
	You've maintained this falsehood for 20 years.
	Your children suspect nothing.
	Nobody suspects anything. So you guys are really good at not telling the truth.
	So if your children have bonded with people who are really good at not telling the truth, you know what kind of partners they're going to end up with, right?
	There's something else I hadn't considered.
	Whereas if, you know, you tell the truth and you go through the mess, then they'll actually get a lesson not in how efficient lying is, but how destructive lying can be.
	And it means that they're more likely to be radar sensitive to our liars.
	Right. Right.
	I would hope that they would learn from our mistakes.
	Right. Do you think that over time...
	Raul would be happier or less happy to know he had a son?
	Over time, I think he would be happier.
	And why's that? Because my son has grown into a very wonderful young man who's made my husband very proud in a number of ways.
	Yeah, but that also means, from a man's perspective, another guy was really good at raising my son.
	That's true. You know, from a competition and, you know, male, you know, men compete, men, right?
	It's like, well, this guy I didn't like because he stole the love of my life was also really great at raising my son, who I didn't know I had.
	Every time your son is wonderful, it's going to be a little tough for your ex-lover.
	Right. I don't think that's avoidable.
	I don't think that's avoidable.
	Well, again, unless you don't tell anyone the truth, right?
	Right. Now, what if, because, I mean, this theoretical is assuming that you and your husband are on the same page, but what if you sit down and have a conversation with your husband, and your husband says, we already had this conversation.
	I only stayed married to you, so you'd take the secret to your damn grave.
	So this is a non-starter.
	We're never telling anyone. Then what?
	That would probably be a nail in the coffin of our marriage, so to speak.
	Go on. Because you already agreed to this deal, right?
	I did. I did.
	So you would be the one changing the deal.
	Right. I would be the one changing the deal, but...
	I think people are supposed to change and learn and grow as they get older, hopefully wiser.
	Well, not necessarily about foundational marriage contracts.
	That's like saying, well, you know, we've been married for a while, but now I want to join a commune and have an open marriage.
	It's like, you know, people are supposed to grow and change.
	It's like, well, I know I had a job, but now I want to become a bank robber.
	You know, like, you get what I mean.
	Like, change is good, but...
	Like, reworking foundational deals, right?
	As you said, if he'd known before you got married that you were carrying Raul's son, Bob wouldn't have married you, right?
	And then the only reason, I assume, he stayed married to you was because you agreed to keep this a secret forever.
	So, again, I'm just pointing it out that this is a pretty tough thing to renegotiate, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so what would happen if he says, "Uh-uh, no, no, no, this we take to a grave"?
	I don't know.
	I'd like to think that I could respect my husband's wishes.
	But I feel this is a secret that I can't live with.
	I can't take to my grave.
	But that's the problem.
	The problem is that you're uncomfortable with the secret.
	And therefore, it may be that you want to tell the secret so that you feel better.
	Which is... A little selfish if the secret has largely negative...
	Oh, I feel better, right? And then there's this smoke and wreckage of relationships all around you.
	Well... It's a possibility.
	That's all I'm saying. It's a possibility, but I think it's easier to live with the secret.
	It's easier because I don't have the smoke and wreckage.
	But you said you would feel better if you said, right?
	Ultimately, in the end, I think the truth should come out.
	Yes. And would you be willing to detonate your marriage to tell the truth, right?
	So if your husband says, no, no, no, we already had this deal.
	It's the only reason we got married.
	It's the only reason we became husband and wife.
	You agreed to take the secret with you to the grave.
	And if you change that, we're done.
	I would pay that price.
	Wow. That is...
	That is a commitment to the truth that you don't see every day.
	And that also tells me that things may not be going super well with your husband.
	That's correct. And what's going on there?
	Well, I... We don't have a very...
	Loving relationship.
	He's a workaholic.
	He works all the time. When he comes home from work, he puts on his work clothes and he goes back to work.
	Meaning he goes to cut wood or help his father at the farm that they still run.
	He's not a communicator.
	We don't have good conversations.
	He doesn't take care of himself physically.
	So he's become very overweight and he doesn't seem to want to be with us, his family, as much as he wants to go and work.
	And it's been a lonely marriage for me for the past decade, I suppose.
	You can't see me, but I'm tearing up a little.
	That is a very, very sad situation, Jackie.
	I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
	It's kind of what I married into.
	I knew that he was a workaholic.
	I knew he worked hard. It's part of why I did marry him.
	I'm committed to him.
	I would never cheat on him.
	I would never stray.
	It's not made for a good marriage.
	I'm closer to my kids than to my husband.
	If you could go back, who would you have chosen?
	Wow.
	Wow.
	That's a good question.
	Selfishly, I would have chosen Rahul, because he and I had a very loving, very close relationship.
	We could talk for hours about anything, and we shared the same love of reading.
	Literature, theater, and music, especially music.
	I love music. My current husband is very indifferent to all those things.
	He's very indifferent to literature and music.
	Sometimes that personality is called concrete, the very concrete.
	It's like, this is the world, these are the things in it, these are the facts, this is the data, these are the objects, but there's not a lot of You know, high-flying conceptual exploration and abstract connection to emotional truths and beauty and all of that.
	Absolutely, yeah.
	On the other hand, he's been a very good provider and he's been a very good father to my children.
	They love him, you know.
	Well, hang on, but if he's always gone...
	You said for 10 years he's been a workaholic.
	He works during the day, comes home, works on the farm.
	I mean, where's the, you know, parenting is, you know, right?
	I mean, it's really time intensive and there's no substitute for time.
	That's right. So, again, I'm really happy to be corrected, Jackie, but where's all this great parenting coming out if he's working 16 hours a day?
	Yeah. Well, when he does spend the time, you know, I encourage him.
	I try to have him take the kids with him if he's going out to fix vents or whatever.
	He will if I tell him to.
	But, you know, he can laugh with them and have fun with them from time to time.
	But I really have to encourage it and almost put it on the calendar.
	Anything that we do socially or as a family, it's by my impetus, my initiation.
	How much weight has he gained?
	Probably about 80 pounds.
	80 pounds? Yeah, he's a very tall, heavy, heavy man now.
	Well, he knew also that you lost your father early to health issues.
	Right, right. Yeah.
	Does he have any awareness or plans to change, to lose weight?
	No, no.
	He doesn't have the kind of personality to be self-reflective like that.
	No, this is not deep self-knowledge.
	This is like, I haven't seen my penis in 10 years.
	Right. He doesn't like to talk about that.
	I equivocate it to a snow plow.
	He likes to plow. And he's just going to push forward.
	Does he get his checkups?
	I mean, has his doctor said anything?
	No, he doesn't go to the doctor.
	He doesn't go to the doctor?
	No. But he's a middle-aged father.
	That's not really an option, is it?
	Well, you could avoid it if you wanted to.
	No, but... I mean, you could be a chain smoker too, but...
	Does he have life insurance?
	I think so. I think he does through his work.
	Yeah, I check on that.
	That seems important.
	Yeah, like, I'm sorry, like, if you're a dad, you've got to go to the doctor, man.
	You've got to go to the doctor.
	That's, you know, you've got to get your, you know, you've got to get your checkups.
	You have to, you have to, because you're a dad.
	Yeah. Which means that everyone's relying on you.
	And I hope you go to the doctor, but anyway, we're talking about him.
	So, and again, I'm sorry for probing, but I just want to get a lay of the land.
	So if he's gained that much weight, to me, when I see one side of a couple gain a lot of weight, I assume that There's no sex in the marriage because one of the reasons you stay trim and healthy is because you want your partner to continue to find you attractive as, you know, age leaves its inevitable Michelin tire print on your face and body.
	Yeah, that's so true.
	I've always been athletic and healthy.
	I'm kind of the opposite of him.
	He likes those power drinks or Mountain Dew or whatever it is, the crap that people drink to keep going.
	Oh yeah, that's real garbage.
	So is it fair to say that you guys are not at peak sexual interaction time?
	Yeah. And is it a sexless marriage?
	Almost, yes.
	Like how often a year?
	Lately it's been maybe once every six months.
	Once every six months?
	Yeah, pretty pathetic, huh?
	Oh, man. And of course, you can't talk about that either, right?
	No, no.
	I'm so sorry for that, too.
	That's wretched.
	And shockingly, not that uncommon.
	There's a huge number of sexless.
	I'd put this in sexless, right?
	Right, yeah, yeah.
	Oh, man. I'm so sorry.
	I'm so sorry. That's just a mess all around.
	So, other than the sort of stability and continuity and income, what's the plus in your marriage or what other pluses?
	Well, I think we built a beautiful house together.
	And by that, I mean with our own hands.
	Our children are wonderful.
	They're the light of my life.
	They're sweet. It's stable and giving and loving and selfless fun.
	And I do everything for them.
	I want to...
	You've even held a lie for them in some ways.
	Yeah. No, listen, I get that.
	And that's an important aspect of things as well, right?
	I mean, if you told the truth, you'd never have met them.
	That's true. That's true.
	I don't ever want them to think that they're here by mistake.
	Oh, no, no. You made a very conscious decision to meet them, right?
	Right, right. And you bit your tongue a lot.
	And to build a healthy, a stable home anyway, a stable home that they can rely on us being there and that everything is something that they can count on.
	Well, but okay, but do they see, I assume that if it's a sexless marriage, it's not an affectionate marriage.
	So do they see you and your husband affectionate or enjoying each other's company or anything like that?
	No. Right.
	So again, this is the modeling.
	This is the imprinting that you're giving on them.
	This is what a marriage is, right?
	Right. This is what they see.
	Right. The marriage is where you can let yourself go.
	Right. You can work all the time.
	You kind of have to be nagged to spend time with your children.
	There's no physical affection. There's no enjoyable conversation.
	There's no connection.
	No connection. And that's not the best model for your parents, sorry, for your children to be seen.
	Yeah, I know that.
	And it's funny because he grew up in that kind of household and so did I to a certain extent.
	Oh, secrets and lies? Well, just kind of a failed marriages.
	Oh, you mean, wait, failed but stayed together?
	His parents are still together, but it's obviously not a loving relationship.
	It's just convenience.
	And my folks divorced when I was about seven.
	So neither of us have had the kind of role models that we needed For a marriage.
	So yeah, your parents divorced when you were a young girl and you ended up bearing the child of a man who divorced his wife when his daughter was young.
	Yeah, yeah. Patterns, patterns, patterns.
	Yes. Okay, let me ask you this.
	Your kids are getting older and probably in a couple of years they'll be out of the house, right?
	Yeah. And you're just sitting across from Stony face, Jabba the Hutt.
	Looking at another 30 years, right?
	Yeah. What's going to happen then, Jackie?
	Well, I don't want to be married at that point.
	So you're hanging in there for your kids, and when they're out of the house, it's over with your husband, is that right?
	Yeah, I think so.
	I think so. I can't imagine being retired and being around him all the time because we have nothing to talk about.
	Oh, it's horrible.
	Listen, I mean, the bottom layer of hell is proximity without intimacy.
	Right, or indifference, I think, is the opposite of love.
	It's indifference, and I feel that...
	Yeah, boredom. Boredom and indifference.
	Yeah, I mean, I'd rather be angry than bored when it comes to relationships because at least then you care about something.
	Exactly. You said that for the last 10 years it's been lonely.
	Are you saying that the first 10 years obviously was better?
	Was it much better? Well, we were busy raising young children.
	We were distracted. Yeah, we were distracted.
	Yeah, it's a funny thing.
	And again, I'm sorry to...
	I just asked you a question. We'll get back to it.
	But I just want to let people...
	I want to give people these markers, right?
	Yeah. When your kids are young, your day is like being shot out of a cannon and just hitting a bed 18 hours later for very little sleep.
	That's your day when your kids are young.
	And then this thing happens where they just start facing the world instead of you.
	The peer group takes over and suddenly it goes from feast to famine in terms of your parental investment almost seemingly overnight.
	And that massive amount of busy work can sure as hell wallpaper up a lot of problems in a marriage.
	And it's when the kids get older and they start wanting to hang out with friends and go to the mall and whatever kids do these days, that's when all the stuff that gets wallpapered over by massive busy work of raising kids when they're young, man, does it ever come back, right?
	Yeah, that's true.
	It's true. You look at each other like strangers and there's no conversation.
	We sure have been busy in the same house together.
	Yeah. Now, how many, just roughly, is it like a half decade till your last kid boogies off?
	Yes, yeah, about five years.
	Right. As far as the timing goes, what if you waited till then?
	You know, I feel evil when I think about that.
	It's been 20 years.
	Right. Hang out and then as soon as my last child is out of the house, divorce my husband.
	It just seems like an evil plot.
	You know? As far as that's concerned, I think it's probably a separate topic, but I think I'd like to get marriage counseling.
	No, I'm so sorry. I was completely unclear.
	That's totally on me. I apologize for that, Jackie.
	But what I mean is, what about keeping the secret for another five years?
	Oh. Till the kids are out of the house.
	Because if you tell this, you've then got to live with this Michelin man grouchy bear head for like another half decade, right?
	Yes. That could be a little uncomfortable.
	Yeah. You said he got pretty aggressive last time, right?
	I mean, he probably couldn't catch you now, but...
	No, no he couldn't.
	Just go up the stairs, you'll be fine.
	Yeah, that's...
	It's probably as long as I need to get the bravery or the courage up to confront the truth and unveil the truth to my son.
	Well, yeah, I mean, so if you do wait, whether it's a half a decade or whatever it is, right?
	Because here's the problem.
	I mean, it's going to be kind of hell for you if your husband comes down on you like a bag of hammers and says you can't possibly tell anyone about this in any way, shape, or form.
	And you're going to stay with him for another half decade.
	I mean, you've added to your woes without adding to your salvation, right?
	Yeah. Unless you just say, yeah, sorry, I'm going to tell him anyway, in which case your husband might divorce you, right?
	Right. Yeah, man, there really isn't a good way out of this, right?
	I feel like a wimp.
	I feel like I should just confront the truth and just throw open the doors of damnation.
	Well, you know, there is certainly a case to be made to say, tell the truth though the sky is full, that your children deserve the truth, that keeping this is unhealthy for your family as a whole, that telling the truth might actually save your marriage.
	Right. Right. Because it's pretty exhausting.
	See, your husband has a different relationship to your son than you did.
	You understand, right?
	Because it's your son.
	Yes. And I don't know what he's avoiding.
	I don't know what he's avoiding, of course, but maybe he's just avoiding looking at what he agreed to.
	Yeah, that's a very good point.
	If I had to go to some place where I had to lie continually, I wouldn't want to be there much either.
	That's why I don't lie on the show.
	That's why I take on the challenging topics.
	I don't want to have a show where I've got to sit there and know really important things and never talk about them.
	Right. Do you think it might be also a reason that we are not close to this day?
	That our marriage is just I think it's a pretty important factor, Jackie.
	I really do. I think that it's pretty hard to look across the table and know that you're sharing a mutual secret, that you're lying to your children every time you open your mouth or come down the stairs.
	I think it's pretty tough to keep the respect flowing in that situation.
	Yeah. I think it's pretty tough To sit there and say to your kids, you shouldn't lie to us.
	Got to tell the truth. Honesty is a virtue.
	You know, that eats you out a little bit each time inside, right?
	Right, right.
	I mean, if I were in your shoes, I would certainly try and talk about things differently.
	With your husband. Now, it may be for the best that you do that in an environment like marriage counseling, because this is a hell of a conversation to have, right?
	I mean, you're trying to rewrite the entire physics of the family.
	And, you know, his level of aggression that you talked about before is certainly some cause for concern.
	But it may be that if you can find some way to get him into marriage counseling, you know, you can say, I'd like to have more sex, but we're not close, right?
	Maybe... I don't know, maybe he's avoiding sex because he's so overweight and feels bad being naked, or maybe he can't get an erection because he's too fat.
	I don't know, right? It could be any number of things, but, you know, you could just sit down with him and say, listen, like, things have got to change.
	This is not a good marriage.
	This is not what we wanted.
	This is not the passion and the love and the devotion that we had early on in our life.
	Right, I've had that conversation in my head a million times.
	Yeah, yeah, no, I would sit down and say, listen, I mean, you know, like, you're not happy.
	I'm not particularly happy.
	The kids are going to be leaving soon.
	It's going to be just you and me. We got to do something to make this better, right?
	We've got to do something to make this better because, you know, where do you think this is going to go over time, right?
	I mean, we still have some distractions with the kids and all that, but, you know, as you get older, you're going to work less.
	I mean, it's going to happen, right? Our kids are going to move out.
	It's going to be you and me with a lot of time together.
	And the sooner we work to fix things, the better, right?
	And, you know, I still care for you.
	You're the father of my children, most of my children.
	And so, you know, we haven't been able to solve it on our own, and that's fine.
	You know, if I'm trying to play tennis and I can't figure out how to become a good tennis player, I'll go get a tennis coach.
	And if we can't figure out how to fix our marriage, let's go talk to an expert.
	And then when you go talk to the expert, you know, I hate to offer you the manipulative course, right?
	But nonetheless, if you go to and you say, you know, I think one of the big problems of the marriage is the secret.
	Right? Now, if he gets mad, you can say, listen, that the therapist is bound by confidentiality.
	She can't say a thing. So I'm still keeping the secret.
	Right? So you could bring this topic up in a marriage counseling session.
	And then his initial shock or perhaps aggression will be tempered by the presence of the therapist.
	The therapist, of course, you know, I'm not a therapist, right?
	So, I mean, they may have great advice, may have more experience with this kind of stuff, but, you know, that's certainly one possibility because the marriage and the modeling of a sort of empty and vacant marriage to your kids is Is, to me, one of the major reasons why the truth might need to be told.
	Because if this is the irradiated, heartless effect of 20 years of falsehood, and nobody in the family knows it consciously, that seems to me one of the most dangerous things to come out of this falsehood.
	Yeah, I think you're right.
	I would take exception to your statement.
	I believe that you are kind of a therapist, Stefan.
	No, I've got to push back.
	No, I'm not. Listen, because therapists, they charge money.
	It's private. This is public.
	And therapists have long-term sessions.
	I'm just applying philosophical principles to people's questions.
	I'm just going to push back on that.
	So this is a very, very different kind of...
	I've done therapy, and it's a very, very different kind of ballgame.
	But, yeah...
	The hidden consequences of the falsehood on your children's unconscious, I think, is pretty significant.
	Now, I mean, the other question is, of course, Raul, right?
	I mean, because you could tell your son without telling him who his father is.
	But that's pretty rough too.
	The other thing too, of course, oh yeah, this is all very complicated, right?
	Because there's no thread that doesn't bring the whole piece of tapestry apart, right?
	Because you contact Raoul and say, do you want to know about your son or do you want to have, you know, whatever, right?
	I don't know. But no, yeah, I would say that the primary person to have in this conversation is your co-conspirator, which would be your husband.
	And, you know, if you talk to him privately...
	Without a therapist present, it may go sideways.
	It may also not be that productive.
	And then it may be that it's very tough to get him into a therapist's office after that.
	So what do you think the best approach is?
	Well, see, I don't know. Again, I don't want to tell you what to do, but I would say that this kind of conversation may be the most productive to have.
	I mean, he may just storm out of the therapist's office, right?
	But if that's the case, he would have just stormed out on you anyway, right?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	But yeah, if you are concerned that he was aggressive last time, it may not be the safest thing in the world to have this conversation privately.
	Yeah. I mean, it's 20 years bottled up as opposed to shock at the time, right?
	Right. So tell me what you're thinking at the moment, if you don't mind.
	Well, I feel relieved for talking about all of this, and I think my next step would be to seek marriage counseling and perhaps bring the secret out in that situation in front of a therapist.
	Yeah, and again, the marriage counseling could just be about the marriage as a whole for a while, right?
	Right. But of course, you know, if the therapist, and the thing is, like, There's no point lying in therapy, right?
	That's like going to a physiotherapist and telling them the wrong knee hurts, right?
	There's no point in that, right?
	Right. So you can let the therapist lead the conversation because there's enough to talk about in terms of the dysfunctions in the marriage to take up marital therapy for a while.
	But if the therapist says, you know, are you guys keeping anything from each other?
	Are you keeping anything from your kids?
	Right? Then it could be, well, yeah.
	Mm-hmm. So you could let the therapist lead that conversation because it's almost like you guys aren't close enough to even have a conversation about telling the truth about this.
	That's exactly it.
	So yeah, I think a therapist could really, really help facilitate that.
	Yeah. I believe you're right.
	And again, I... You know, I mean, the errors of youth is decades ago.
	I, you know, there's going to be people who are mad at you and you're mad at yourself, right?
	I mean, this is not shocking and all that, but I made mistakes when I was young and you made mistakes when you were young.
	And I really want to just reinforce the honorable aspect of you wrestling with this at the moment because a lot of people would be, quote, more than happy to take this to their grave, right?
	Yeah, I don't want that to happen.
	I really believe that the truth should come out.
	Now, we've been talking for a couple of hours here and I just wanted to check in with you and ask how the conversation is or was for you and how you're feeling and whether it was helpful or useful or how my approach was.
	Very direct and honest and brutal, which is good.
	I've never shied from that kind of frankness.
	I like that.
	It wouldn't do me much good if you're talking about telling the truth to not tell the truth, right?
	At least as I saw it. Right.
	Right. It helps me to just bring it out in the open again.
	I have not talked to my sister.
	I've not talked to anybody about this in years.
	And I don't really know other than I'm just watching my son grow into this young adult man that I'm so proud of that I want to do right by.
	I want I want to do right by him.
	And so that was my impetus.
	It just feels wrong to keep this secret forever.
	All right. Is there anything you wanted to add?
	That's most of what I wanted to say.
	No, Stefan. Thank you so much for your time.
	I appreciate your honesty and your assessment of my situation.
	You are more than welcome.
	And I will get on my bended knee and beg you to let me know how this goes.
	I will. Thank you so much.
	You're very welcome. All the very best.

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