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July 13, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:13:47
An Honest Conversation With A Single Mom
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Time Text
I'm 20 and I'm a single mom.
I have a lot of things I'd love to discuss, but ultimately my question would have to be, what can I do to be sure that I'm not a burden on society as a single mom?
I realize that I am in a lot of ways, but I definitely have already changed my outlook in some ways by watching the show and have been enlightened.
Noticed a lot more things with other single moms in my life that I think I would have overlooked before.
That's from Jessica.
Well, hey Jessica, how you doing?
Hello.
I'm good.
How are you?
Great.
Thank you so much for calling in.
Is there anything you wanted to add to what you mentioned already?
No, not really.
Just that.
Just wondering what your opinion is on it, really.
Well, I guess my first opinion is a question.
Jessica?
Yes?
What happened?
Well, it's...
Bit of a long story, if you want to go through the whole thing, but ultimately, you know, I was... Oh no, no, I'm okay with a long story.
It's an important topic.
Yeah, I got together with him when I was 17, still in high school.
I then went and tried to join the military, and he had a really bad accident, and so I left the military and stayed with him.
Now in a wheelchair and we were together for about three years and it was just, I knew the relationship was going south anyways and I was trying to make it work, trying to make it work.
And then I got pregnant and then I was, it was a lot of, Oh, he's going to change.
And of course, you know, he didn't as expected.
And, uh, Then after she was born, he obviously still didn't change, still didn't work on things, wasn't helping at all, and so I got out of it.
What accident did he have?
He was hiking and fell.
He fell somewhere between 70 and 120 feet, broke all kinds of bones, all kinds of surgeries.
He's not paralyzed.
It was, uh, they put a rod in his back where he had shattered one of his, um, one of the bones in his back and he had to go through a bunch of physical therapy and probably could have gotten out of the wheelchair and probably still could now, but he's not doing the work through the physical therapy like he should really.
Now, I've done a lot of hiking in my day, Jessica.
Yeah.
And I've never been close to falling 70 to 120 feet.
Yeah.
No, I had actually gone hiking at the same place about a month before him, and yeah, I didn't have any problems either.
Was he drinking?
Um, no, a lot of people ask that, um, because he's been known to, but, uh, from the story I've heard, he wasn't, he was with, uh, friends of mine, actually.
And, uh, they said they weren't drinking or anything, so... I think, uh, they were just being stupid, if nothing else.
They were clearly going to close edges, and, uh, weren't wearing anything to protect themselves.
Oh, so it was sort of like rock climbing or dangling around the edge of a big gorge kind of thing?
Yeah.
Okay, so how long had you been with him when he had this accident?
Six months.
And why did you... I'm not saying, you know, ditch the guy because he fell down, but... Yeah.
Why did you stay with him?
Well, we'd been together for six months and Well, I was, you know, planning on starting this career in the military and just, uh, the whole accident really shook me up a lot.
And then, um, and then I left the military and at that point it was, I gave up all this.
"I have to make this for something." - Was she, I mean, what was his decision-making abilities before this?
Was there any indication that he might make somewhat rash decisions?
Like, I knew a guy when I was younger that used to play chicken with trains.
Like, there aren't any video games in the world, right?
And the guy lost his legs.
Yeah, when we first met, He, uh, he was doing a lot of stupid stuff, but close to me leaving, um, he had, you know, done a lot to change and better himself.
And, you know, when we first met, he had no intentions of going to college.
And by the time I left, he was, you know, um, accepted in a bunch of different colleges and, you know, working a good job.
And he had made progress.
I guess would be the only way to put it.
And then he could have ended up in a better situation with regards to his injuries, but he didn't do the physio that was necessary or didn't do enough of it?
Yeah, he's actually still in physical therapy now.
And it's been, you know, three years now, something like that.
And he's just he doesn't want to do it at home.
He doesn't want to do it.
He doesn't want to go there every time he has to.
You know, just isn't putting in all the work he should.
Right, I would assume that he hasn't been working.
No, of course not.
So Jessica, do you know what my next question is going to be?
What is that?
So you're in a relationship with a guy who perhaps fooled around on a hiking trail and plunged, is not doing his physio, is not working, Has no particular prospects.
I assume that this was emotionally devastating for him, right?
And then what happened?
You got pregnant.
Yes.
Tell me about that.
I don't need to play by play or anything, obviously, but what happened?
I mean, there's like 18 different forms of birth control for you, right?
Um, yes.
It, um, it was really just being irresponsible.
Um, That's really all it boils down to.
No.
No, that's like saying God created the universe.
I had an irresponsible action that was caused by irresponsibility.
The question is why?
Right?
I mean, you know, smart enough to get into the military, you've not got an IQ of 70, so you know how babies are made.
I believe about 98% of the internet is devoted to showing documentaries on just that very thing.
And so you know how babies are made and you know what steps are necessary to not have a baby.
So you kind of chose to have a baby, right?
Yes.
Okay.
So help me step me through that decision.
Well, I was originally on birth control and then he and I broke up and I wasn't with anyone else.
I wasn't worried about being on it.
And so I stopped taking it.
And we were separated for, you know, three months or so.
And, uh, when we got back together, I just, I just didn't, I just didn't.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Oh man.
Are you actually telling me, Jessica, that you decided to have a kid with a guy who's got a broken body, who's not doing his physio, has no money, no job, no prospects.
And you just broke up with him too?
Um, yes.
Okay.
Step, step me through this process.
You're getting back together with the guy and how good looking is this guy?
I gotta know.
Um, not, not terribly.
I assume his body is not a lean, mean fighting machine after a bunch of time in a wheelchair and all, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
He's, he's not, he's not super smart, right?
I mean, he's not, you know, he doesn't shit diamonds or anything.
So what, What is the thought process of, well, it's a really unstable relationship with a guy who's facing, let's just say, enormous life challenges with no particular prospects, who's not doing what he needs to do to solve his health issues.
I know.
I'll get pregnant.
I mean, help me understand that.
It really just wasn't a thought process.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
You don't get to pull that with me.
I'm sorry.
That may work with your, I don't know who, other friends.
It does not work here.
A woman's choice to get pregnant is never something that just happens.
You know, as a woman, right?
I mean, your whole biology, Jessica, as you know, and your whole psychology is evolved over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.
to make sure that you know when you're getting pregnant or not.
Because if you get pregnant with the wrong guy and he takes off, your whole bloodline would likely end because other guys wouldn't take you in and you wouldn't be able to get enough food.
And so it is never something that just happens.
There's always some kind of thinking behind it.
And I'm just, I'm not trying to, you know, be mean or anything like I'm genuinely curious what, what the thought process is.
This doesn't just happen.
Um, well, I guess if I would have to say something, more than anything, it would be, you know, I gave up all this and, you know, it's got to be for something.
I gave up a lot and went through a lot and didn't want it to just be for nothing.
But when you broke up with him, why didn't you just go back into the military?
It wasn't an option because of the way that I left.
Because I wasn't through boot camp when I left.
Oh, so if you leave early, and you don't have to get into the details, but if you leave early then you're not allowed back in?
Yes.
And there was nothing else that you wanted to do?
It was like, I'm either going to take lives or make lives.
It's military or motherhood.
There's nothing in between.
Is that right?
I just, I really, Don't think I'm particularly fit for college or anything like that.
And didn't really, uh, I guess still don't really have a career in mind.
I'm working, but you know, just warehouses and not any... So without a baby, you got a whole bunch of nothing going on, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
And what are you living on?
Are you, you're not married to the guy, right?
You're just living together?
Oh no, he's not around.
You've broken up?
Yes.
And when did you break up?
We broke up when she was about two months old.
Was that a shock to you?
I was actually the one that ended it.
It just got to be harder and harder, and he wasn't wanting to be around.
And when he was around, he wasn't doing anything to help.
And, you know, I was waking up every three hours through the night and getting no sleep and working a job.
And he was, you know, at home doing nothing.
Had to put my daughter in daycare because he wasn't going to watch her.
And at that point, I was just done.
So you must have known this ahead of time when you got pregnant that it wasn't going to work out and he wasn't going to be an even remotely decent father, right?
Yes.
Okay, so you knew that it was 99% or 95% likely that you were going to end up raising the child without him, right?
Yes.
And what are you living on?
I'm working.
I've been I've been going a little job to job because I've been through temp agencies, but I've been just working warehouse jobs, you know, $10 or $11 an hour.
And I do have a new boyfriend now.
All right, hang on, hang on.
Let's get to the new boyfriend in a sec.
Is your ex involved?
Is it your son or daughter?
I don't want any details.
I just need to know what to refer.
Daughter.
Daughter, is your ex involved in your daughter's life at all?
No.
Does he contribute any money?
Yes.
He does.
Okay.
All right.
And how does he get money if he's not working?
Disability.
Oh, government?
Yes.
Excellent.
Excellent.
I'm sure the taxpayers in America are now sending off a ragged cheer of discontent.
All right.
Now, who is it who takes care of your daughter when you're working?
I take her to daycare.
Does that, I mean, if you're making $10 or $11 an hour, do you have much money?
I mean, I don't see the math here.
How are you surviving if you're dropping her off at daycare and you're making $10 or $11 an hour?
Well, I work four day shifts.
Yeah, four day shifts.
She only goes to daycare three of the days.
The fourth day she goes to my mom's and it's about half as cheap for three days.
And that's about it really.
So you have enough to live on working four days with a kid?
Barely.
Right.
I mean health insurance and all that.
What's happening with that?
I have her on passport.
And then I was... I'm sorry, I don't know what that is.
I have her on state health insurance.
And then we were on, she was on the food assistance for her until it got to be a little easier for me to manage that.
And then I took her off of that.
And then that was it.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
And how old is she?
She's a year old.
Right.
Were you breastfeeding during this time?
Um, I attempted to as best I could, but, um, it only lasted about two months.
What did you dry up because of work or what happened?
Um, no, it was, honestly, it was terribly, terribly painful and really hard to manage.
Um, And then I did go back to work after two months.
And so I just chose to stop it then.
Did you feel that your ex-boyfriend owed you a baby because you weren't in the military?
I wouldn't say that I thought he owed me a baby.
But you said, since I gave up all of this and nothing much else is going, I don't want to go to college or not.
Like it feels like, I mean, I'm not trying to tell you your experience, of course, Jessica, but there was something like, well, I gave this up, therefore, what?
Your oats?
I mean, I'm trying to sort of figure out the why the baby thing.
I mean, obviously, it wasn't a terribly big surprise since we weren't being safe with anything.
But No, it was... I guess the only way to put it is we didn't slip up until the one time and that was when we got her.
I thought you said you weren't on birth control when you got back together?
No, I wasn't on birth control, but we were using other methods.
Oh, okay.
Like condoms?
Yes.
Okay.
And then you did one unprotected.
You know, it really only takes one to get one past the goalie, right?
Yes.
Absolutely.
Your new boyfriend?
Yes.
He's fine with you being a single mom?
Um... Give and take here and there.
Um... He, uh...
He's actually the one that introduced me to you with the reasons on why not to date a single mom.
So he watched my video, Reasons Not to Date a Single Mom.
He's dating you and he introduced you to my show.
Yes.
The irony vortex is just spiraling around in my brain here, but all right.
You know, we've known each other for a lot longer than... I've known him longer than I've known my daughter's father.
It's kind of just been a working thing, just kind of as we go, figuring things out, really.
Does he want children as well?
Yes, eventually.
And is he paying for certain aspects of your daughter's expenses?
No, not exactly.
We live together and he obviously pays a portion of the bills and I pay a portion of the bills, so I guess in a way it kind of works out that way.
Look, I'm sure your daughter is charming and all of that, but I don't know if he's available, but I kind of like to ask him why is he want to put all this time and effort into raising someone else's kid?
Yeah, I'm available.
Oh, hello.
How are you doing, sir?
I'm well.
How are you doing?
I'm doing good.
You are doing something.
So what?
Help me.
So you listen to the show, Why Not Today to Single Mom, right?
Was this before or after you moved in with Jessica?
Before.
And you didn't believe me?
Where does this guy know?
He's lying!
I believed you, but I think one of the reasons I showed it to her really was, I don't know, I was trying to... She tries to pull away from a lot of the behavior that you talk about in the videos like that.
And she's already got my admiration for just calling in and asking this basic question.
So, you know, this is why I'm having the conversation.
I admire her for that, but I'm just sort of trying to ask you at the moment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, well, she's got my admiration for the same reason, but, uh, I don't know.
I thought it would, uh, maybe help her get a little further with it.
You know, like, I mean, she, she wants to be able to do it independently and I just I admire that a lot.
Were there no women around without a baby that you could date?
I mean, let me let me let's be frank.
I mean, just to be perfectly honest, and perfectly frank, as I always try to be.
If Jessica, if you had, I'm sure you, you know, your kid's great and all that.
But if you had the choice, like if ahead of time, somebody was saying, well, there's two women you can fall in love with.
One has a baby, the other one doesn't, which would you choose?
Probably the one without.
Of course!
Yeah.
Because biology, right?
Yeah.
So maybe, look, maybe she's got fantastic virtues.
And again, I admire her already, not necessarily for the decision she made a year and nine months ago, or didn't make, but for calling in and wanting to prevent challenges.
And that's great.
So, you know, she may have virtues that overcome the negative aspect of this.
Did you try and date her before she got involved with Joe Wheelie?
Yes, it was years ago.
And why didn't she date you then?
Were you just not hurling yourself off high enough mountains?
I mean, why didn't she date you in the past?
Why is she waiting now to date you if you're such a great guy?
Why is she dating you now after she has another man's kid?
Then, we were in high school and I got shipped out to a military school when I was 16.
I think that might have been part of it.
So you just weren't around?
Correct.
Jessica, would you have dated him if he'd been around instead of the father of your daughter?
I would definitely say yes, but I was also a different person when He and I first met.
Go on.
Better?
No, no.
No, I mean, I was 15 and in high school and, you know, still learning a lot of things and... Okay, you gotta not give me these euphemisms.
I'm being pretty straight with you guys, right?
Just be straight with me.
What was going on when you were 15?
When I was 15, I was trying to figure out how to color in the last couple of pages of the Monster Manual Dungeons and Dragons reference.
What was going on with you when you were 15, Jessica?
When I was 15, I started smoking cigarettes and weed and drinking and skipping school and, you know, just a lot of... I had a lot of growing up to do.
And Jessica, in the grim cycle of the generations, Where was your father?
My dad's always been there.
Where was he when you were 15 and making these really bad decisions?
In his own way.
My parents divorced when I was about 12 and my dad, he got really depressed after that.
And so he was around, but wasn't this big bubbly personality.
Wait, wait, wait, but who were you, uh, who got custody?
Um, it was week to week.
I would be with my dad for one week and my mom for the next.
But your dad was depressed after the divorce and emotionally unavailable to put it mildly?
Yes.
Was he abusing any substances himself?
Uh, no, no, not at all.
My dad doesn't drink or do any of that, so.
And did your mother know when you were 15?
I mean, we think of bad decisions before we make them.
They don't just, you know, hit us like a bolt of lightning out of a clear blue sky, right?
So at some point you were beginning to think of running with the bad crowd and doing the destructive things, you know, the self-destructive things and dangerous things and giving up on education and smoking weed.
At some point you were contemplating this.
And where were your parents?
Were you talking to them about what you were contemplating?
Did they know either what you were thinking of doing or what you were doing when you started doing it?
I mean, what was going on?
Absolutely not.
I didn't tell them about any of this until I graduated and moved here.
And why didn't they know?
Did they not know who your friends were, or what you were doing, or whether you were going to school?
The school usually will call parents if you don't show up.
So how did they not know?
Well, my parents divorced when I was 12, like I said, and my dad was just really depressed all the time and my mom was...
You know, looking for a new boyfriend, looking for something new to do.
And so my mom was going out and drinking and, you know, having fun with her own little crowd.
I was probably with my dad more than anything.
But your dad, so your dad was depressed and your mom was trying to relive her teenage years by going out and be a party girl?
Yes, exactly.
So is it fair to say that you were neglected during this time?
I guess in a way.
Well, no, they didn't even know that you were thinking about making bad decisions or that you were actually making bad decisions.
So that's neglect, right?
They didn't know what was going on in your life and they weren't there available to you for guidance.
Because every time you're home with your parents, every second that passes, you can open your mouth and you can say, I'm thinking of doing weed.
I'm thinking of smoking cigarettes.
I'm thinking of drinking.
I'm thinking of not going to school.
I'm thinking of hanging out with these bad kids, right?
The whole time.
that you're home, you can say that to your parents.
And if you don't, there's a reason.
And I want to know, what is that reason?
Because this is what your daughter is going to face when she grows up if you don't know this stuff.
It's just, I mean, curiosity for me too, but there's a reason behind what I'm asking.
Um, well, my dad I had a hard time having a lot of conversations with, because every time I would talk to my dad, he would tell me how much I was like my mom, and it would either be really good things, and he would start crying, or it would be really bad things, and he would start yelling.
And then, my mom was, more than anything, just trying to be my best friend, and, um, You know, my mom thinks she's this, you know, fun party girl teenager, um, even to this day.
And, uh, she, uh, she's, she's always been real open about saying you can talk to me about anything.
If you get drunk somewhere and you need a ride, I'll pick you up.
No questions.
And I just, I wasn't comfortable with talking to her.
Um, I think it was probably because of the divorce because it definitely brought out a different side of my mom.
I found out that she had cheated on my dad and then she disappeared for a couple weeks and then... Wait, wait, wait, hang on, hang on.
We're switching and I was going to ask who cheated on whom.
I assumed it was your mom.
So before your parents got divorced, your mom cheated on your dad?
Yes.
And was that what precipitated the divorce?
Yes.
It's what started it.
And do you know if that was the only time?
Um, no, I, uh, I found out it was the third time that she had done that.
So when you were 12, did you find out when you were 12 that your mom had had three affairs?
Yes.
Yes.
And how the hell did you find that out?
Did they, they sat down and they said, Well, your mom's kind of been whoring around a bit with three other guys, so bye-bye family.
No, it was my mom disappeared for a couple of weeks, and my dad was angry, yelling everything, telling me and my brother all that had happened so that we would hate my mom.
So your mom disappeared for a couple of weeks because she was shacking up with some guy?
I'm not totally sure where she was in those weeks.
I'm guessing not seeing Old Faithful the geyser.
Well, maybe, kind of, in a way.
But, you know, you don't tend to abandon your family because there's a good sale on at Baskin Robbins, right?
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah, well, they, uh, they tried to make it work and tried to go to marriage counseling and everything.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
No, no, no.
Don't even try.
Don't even try to tell me that your mom tried to make it work after having three affairs.
That's explicitly not trying to make it work.
No, my dad tried to make it work.
Okay.
You said they, which is both.
Yes.
And how did your dad try to make it work?
Um, he, uh, he, you know, signed them up for marriage counseling and he, um, kicked my mom out and then tried to get her to come back.
And she came back for a night and then would leave another night and then would come back for a night and leave another night.
So they went to marriage counseling and then your father kicked your mom out.
Was that part of the marriage counseling?
I don't know much about marriage counseling, but I'm not sure kick the woman to the curb is part of it.
No, that was actually before the marriage counseling.
That was before he kicked me out.
And was your mom drinking when you were young?
I don't ever actually remember my mom drinking because my dad doesn't like drinking at all, but I know as soon as they got divorced she did.
Right, so it's fairly safe to say that you were relatively unparented puberty and onwards.
Is that unfair to say?
No, not at all.
All right.
And so, like all people who raise themselves, myself included, you do a fairly decent job, but not that great because you're a kid.
And if kids could raise themselves, we wouldn't need parents after the age of 10, right?
Correct.
All right.
So, I don't know if you've watched any of the Gene Wars stuff, but it seems to me more likely that you got our selected stimuli in your environment.
And there's lots of statistics that show girls who are not close to their fathers Make very bad decisions in general, not all but you know in general.
So I'm just going to take a little run through the stats right because I'm more sort of cognizant of the fact and you guys have listened for a while but this is the situation, this is why Jessica's calling in and this is the situation that occurs.
Women who had first birth outside of marriage were 3.6 times more likely to live below the poverty 4.5 times more likely to be receiving food stamps than women who had their first birth within marriage.
Children living in female headed families with no spouse present have a poverty rate of 48%, over four times the rate of married couple families.
The likelihood of unemployed single mother being in poverty drops 65% if they marry the father of their children from 100% to 35%.
Marriage more than doubles the family income of these mothers and their children.
Among single mothers who were employed part-time, marriage decreased the poverty rate by 38% from 55% to 17%.
Marriage increased the household income by 75% and would raise 83% of such households above the poverty level.
Among mothers who were employed full-time, marriage would boost the incomes of nearly two-thirds of such households to 150% of the poverty level.
In sum, marriage increases median family income of mothers by between $10,000 and $11,000 per year and would reduce the probability that mothers live in poverty by at least two-thirds.
Children born to single mothers show higher levels of aggressive behavior than children born to married mothers.
Living in a single mother household is Equivalent to experiencing 5.25 partnership transitions, adolescents from other family structures were between 40 and 198% more likely to enter into sexual activity than adolescents living with two biological parents.
90% of homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
71% of high school dropouts come from fatherless homes.
70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions have no father.
71% of adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers Come from fatherless homes.
63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes.
85% of children who exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes.
And we've got a whole presentation, The Truth About Single Moms, if people want to have.
But this is this is the stuff you're scared of, right, Jessica?
Yes, absolutely.
Got it.
All right.
I don't know if the fine fellow there wants to give me his name or maybe I can I just call you Bob?
It's Frank.
All right.
All right.
You're going to be Frank with me.
Fair enough.
All right.
I will.
You can still be Garth.
Frank, did you know all this stuff about Jessica's family history?
I did.
Right.
And what do you think of her parents?
I'm not the biggest fan of her mom, especially.
From when I've met her dad, he's A nice guy, but I understand that he's got stuff I haven't seen.
But generally, uh, yeah, I'm not, I'm not fond of her mom.
I just don't like her.
And Frank, how pretty is Jessica 1 to 10?
I know she's in the room, but you know, you said you'd be Frank.
Eight and a half.
Eight and a half.
All right.
Post baby.
Good job.
Post baby.
And is she the prettiest girl you've been with?
Yes.
By far?
By far.
Right.
And when do you want to have kids?
At a point of financial stability, mostly, but at least five years.
In five years?
And how many kids do you want?
One or two.
Nothing more than that.
And Jessica, you're down with that as a potential plan?
Yes.
And are you guys getting married?
Not anytime soon.
Why not?
You're living together.
You're raising a kid together.
What's the hold up?
You're going to be married.
I don't know what the laws are, but your common law is going to transition you to married legally, probably within a year or two, maybe less.
So, um, Why not?
I'm not saying you have to.
I'm just, you know, curious.
Why not?
If that's where you're heading anyway, just legally, why not do it?
Um, I just don't think we're at a place for that just yet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Don't give me that.
Don't give me that chatelaine non-answer.
You know, I love you.
I'm just not in love with you.
Like, come on.
Just what does that mean?
I mean, you're building a life together.
He's fathering your daughter.
So what is like, Your daughter is attaching to him, right?
Yes, absolutely.
She views him as a father to some degree, right?
So, you expect your daughter to commit, but you don't want to commit.
It's not so much me.
Oh, Frank, you don't want to commit.
Okay, let me turn the herangometer on you.
So, why don't you want to commit?
I don't know.
I feel like there's a lot of uncertainty.
But if there's a lot of uncertainty, why are you parenting her child?
I mean, you get it.
She's already lost one dad, right?
If you guys break up, that would be two.
And that is going to make it far more destructive for her in the future, right?
Because you guys are kind of playing house, but you're not committing.
but I guarantee you the kid is committing.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah, that's true.
And, you know, I think we all, as adults in the conversation, should recognize that what's best for the girl is the most important thing, right?
Not playing house, not having someone fun to hang out with, not getting someone to co-pay the bills, not having a pretty lady to sleep with.
What's best for the kid is the most important thing, because that was the reason for the call, right, Jessica?
Yes.
So what are you doing?
Are you guys a couple?
Are you planning a future?
And what is the barrier to commitment?
I don't think it's so much lack of commitment as just lack of making it legally committed.
Well, but as I said, that's going to happen anyway because you go common law.
You're actually living together, which means after a certain period of time you're equivalent to married, right?
So you've got inertia, right?
So here's my concern, Jessica.
It was kind of inertia that got you pregnant, right?
You kind of didn't make a decision.
Now there's this inertia that's going to end up with you guys being married.
And what I'm trying to do is give the joystick of control over the flight path of your own life back to you so you don't just keep drifting into things.
You're kind of drifting into kind of a half family now, but without making decisions.
Yes, I see that.
But if you're not willing to commit... Look, if you guys want to live... If there's no kid involved, yeah, I mean, I think it's better to wait to live together till you get married.
Having done both, it's better.
For reasons I don't need to get into right now.
But you guys are kind of playing house, but there's a kid involved who's steadily glomming on to Frank.
As the dad, right?
Yes.
And if it doesn't work out, it's going to break her little heart into a thousand pieces.
And that's my sort of major concern here.
You guys are having fun.
You guys getting along.
You guys are having a good fling.
But from your daughter's perspective, Jessica, this could be two for the price of one dad losses, right?
If it doesn't work out.
Yes, sir.
Now, when you commit, what happens is you make different decisions than if you're just kind of bumping along.
Like, oh yeah, I'll move in, we'll split some rent and, you know, two can live as cheaply.
That's kind of drifting along.
Now, if you say, okay, let's make a go of it to commit and be with each other for the rest of our lives, what happens is you start making You start having the conversations that really help determine whether you're compatible or not.
Do you share the same values?
Do you share the same approaches?
Can you stand each other as families?
Because, you know, they're around a lot.
In particular, when there are kids around, the grandparents, you know, they come in, right?
And they often will come in hard and stay long and whatever it is, right?
Which is great if you love them and can be a challenge if not.
Because you said, you said, how can I avoid negative consequences to being a single mom?
Well, um, one of them is don't expose her to a succession of boyfriends, right?
And you grew up in a family, Jessica, where commitment was not exactly front and center.
You know, if your mom's having a bunch of affairs and, and all that, and they're coming and going and make up and break up, right?
Which then you again did with your hikey bikey boy.
And, um, So you've got a challenging template, right?
Now, Frank, what's going on with your family?
What do they think of this situation you've got going on?
I don't talk to all of them too often, but a lot of what I heard, like the one I'm closest with is my aunt, and a lot of what I heard when I first talked to her about it was It was, I understand people make mistakes, but it seemed like, I don't know, it seemed like she was making excuses for it.
I don't know.
Wait, who was making excuses for what?
My aunt.
Was making excuses for Jessica?
Correct.
Well, of course she is.
It's female in group preference.
Women side with women.
That's, that's a law of nature.
That's a law of physics.
There are a few exceptions, like helium balloons don't fall down.
But yeah, in general, it's like, yeah, go help the lady that you get the white knight uniform, go in and help the lovely lady with the deadbeat dad who's raising a child all by her own heroically going right.
Correct.
Right.
And I don't know now that's too harsh.
Okay.
So in terms of the things that are Necessary.
First of all, I don't know.
Right.
I just want to be upfront with that because this is not philosophy.
This is barely informed opinion.
So I'm going to just give you my thoughts.
I'm not going to claim that they're absolute or true or final.
All right.
So the things that are unacknowledged in families tend to repeat.
That's an old truism that predates psychology by a long way.
And I don't know about your side of the family, Frank, but given what you said, it's not a, um, it's not a good family situation.
Jessica's got some challenging family situations and that's where you're coming from, which is not a great template for success in marriage and dating and parenthood and commitment.
Is that fair to say?
Yeah.
And now you're trying to make a relationship work when you both have some pretty destructive elements in your history, in your family templates, templates of what a family is.
You're trying to make it work in a very, very complicated situation.
Like it's tough if you guys were just dating each other and you came from these family histories, it would be tough enough.
But if you throw a baby into the mix, that's even more complicated.
Because now you're not just playing with each other's hearts, you're playing with the heart of an innocent, tender hearted, attachment prone little girl, right?
Right.
And so instead of just juggling with balls, you're juggling with like fiery balls, so to speak, right?
Because stakes are that much higher.
And as far as what to do, well, the first thing is, As she gets older, I mean, she's gonna wander.
I mean, let's just assume Frank's not in the picture.
I'm just just for now, right?
Because you guys are kind of half committed, but not committed.
But you know, so it does not bode well, just putting it that way.
And how long have you guys been going out?
Um, 10 months.
Wait, Frank, you got, you got with Jessica when her daughter was two months old?
Three.
I thought you said you've been together for a year.
I'm just going with 10 months out of 12 months.
She's just over a year old.
She's 13 months old.
Okay, so three months.
Now, this is when you started dating.
When did you start becoming... because, you know, there's usually a bit of a flyby of romantic interest before you start dating.
So when did you guys start doing the flybys of potential romantic interest before you got together?
The birth.
Um, it was, um, right around, uh, right around the time I left my daughter's father.
And, uh, it was just kind of, uh, Hey, I haven't talked to in a long time.
Kind of thing.
Wait, hang on, Jessica.
Oh my God.
So you, you dumped the dad.
And then you're on the phone calling up Frank saying, hey stranger.
The other way around.
He called me actually.
Oh, so Frank, you knew that Jessica had dumped the dad and then you called her with romantic interest?
Um, no, I didn't know she had dumped him and it was originally kind of starting a conversation.
We hadn't talked in a really long time before that.
So basically it was a couple of weeks to a month.
After the dad had left, did you guys started getting romantically interested in each other?
Something like that.
Yeah.
What do you think of that?
I think it was probably a rush to...
Do you think that is enough time to mourn the end of a relationship and the end of a marriage, so to speak, and the banishing of the father of your daughter and the complete mess of all of that?
I mean, do you think a couple of weeks is enough to just tidy that up and put it deep in the rearview?
She might argue with me on it.
But yeah, no, I don't think so.
Of course it wasn't.
You know, there's a rule of thumb, which I don't know if it's true or not, I've just heard it, that it takes half the length of a relationship to get over a relationship, which is why every relationship you're in that isn't going to last every two days you continue is just another day your heart's going to be broken in the future.
And so this, this is kind of crazy, right?
I mean, you get that, right?
Couple of weeks, couple of weeks.
Yeah.
I mean, It just seems weird going on a date with a woman who's still breastfeeding.
You know, call me old-fashioned.
You know, call me some stodgy old uncle from a Jane Austen novel.
But to me, if she's leaking through her bra, I just find that a little distracting for the romance.
Yeah, I can see that. - Okay.
Well, did you at the time?
Did it seem like, yeah, let's go ahead with this thing?
And how long have you guys been living together?
Um, probably about seven months, I think.
So, okay.
So basically a month or two after you started dating, you moved in together.
Yeah.
And what do you think of that?
It was also rushing.
I know that.
and why were you rushing?
I don't know.
I know it's not an answer, but I don't know.
No, but you do know.
You just don't know consciously, right?
Correct.
Because what I get is in the space of four months, Jessica... Yes?
You throw out the father of your child, you start dating this guy, and you move in together.
Yes.
The relationship with her father was, um, well, I wasn't, I wasn't planning to stay with him.
And then I found out that I was pregnant.
And then I stayed to try and make it work.
No, you decided to get pregnant.
You didn't just find out.
This is not an immaculate conception, right?
You didn't get boned by a Bible.
They just need you to reframe this because This is the ownership you need to take for your decisions, because the less ownership you take for your decisions, the worse it's going to be for your daughter.
Because your daughter needs to see a mom who takes ownership for her decisions.
Not, it happened to me, I was going to break up with him, but then I just got pregnant!
Right?
The less responsible you are in owning the decisions that you've made, and to not decide, is a decision, the worse it's going to be for your daughter, because that's the kind of irresponsibility and absence your own life that you're going to transmit to her.
So I need you to start owning what you have decided to do for your daughter's sake.
You know, you asked me what you think is going to help your daughter.
You saying, I just got pregnant is disastrous for your daughter because then it's going to happen to her.
No, I, I, I definitely agree.
Um, well I, I was planning on leaving him and then, um, we, Well, I guess I decided to have a baby, and so I tried to make the relationship work, because I wanted her to have a dad that was going to be around, and the relationship was... Okay, sorry.
Sorry to interrupt you again.
I hate to be such a nag.
I do.
It's not normally the guy's job, but anyway.
You cannot say to your daughter, I tried to make the relationship work because I wanted you to grow up with a father around.
You cannot say that to her because it's not true.
Because if you wanted her to grow up with a father around, you wouldn't have had unprotected sex with a man you just got back in together with in who you wanted to break up with again.
Right?
If you really, really wanted her to have a father around while she was growing up, You would not have done it this way.
And that's the ownership that you need to take.
Because this wishful thinking and hallmark cards and, well, I just got pregnant and I really wanted her to grow up with a father so I tried... No, you didn't!
At least, unconsciously, you can't have.
Because it doesn't take a brain surgeon to look at the situation from outside, Jessica, and say, you couldn't have taken more secure steps to ensure that your daughter grew up without a father.
Because this, for sure, and I'm concerned about this thing with Frank now, too, that this is going to happen again.
Steps that you're taking are certainly not guaranteeing that your daughter is going to grow up with a father.
Quite the opposite.
And again, this is just annoying naggy stuff that I need to remind you.
There is this thing that happens with people, maybe a little bit more with women, although with guys, it's when they get dicknapped, right?
When they're thinking with their dick.
But it's like responsibilities fall on people.
And then it's like water off a duck's back.
Off they go.
Look, I'm dry.
Did you see what I'm saying?
Like you said, well, I really wanted her to grow up with a dad.
No, because then you wouldn't have done it with this guy, the guy who's gone, because this was a totally shaky situation to try and have a kid in, right?
Yes, absolutely.
And this is the level of self ownership that if you want to break the cycle, of your mother being sexually irresponsible and you being sexually irresponsible, you have to take full and complete ownership.
Nothing happened to you and everything that happened, you either chose directly or you chose as the result of not having self-knowledge, which itself is also a choice.
And again, I'm really glad you're calling in.
I don't want to sound overly negative or naggy.
I'm really glad that you're calling in.
But that's the feedback that I would have.
No, absolutely.
I mean, the whole reason I called in was because I like the thing that you said and, you know, I do want to make this stuff sick.
Why is the dad not involved?
Um, he, you know, he wasn't when she was, um, brought home because it was too hard with him being in the wheelchair.
Even if I set everything up for him, it was too hard to just... No, it wasn't too hard.
He just didn't want to, right?
Yeah.
Listen, I saw Supernanny once where a woman and a wife and a husband, they had I think 17 adopted kids and biological kids and the father was a paraplegic and he made it work.
So it's not Impossible.
He just didn't have the motivation.
It wasn't that he couldn't, right?
Oh, no, absolutely.
Okay, okay.
That's what we argued about.
Now, when you told him that you were pregnant, did he say he wanted to be a father?
It was a lot of us talking about adoption and, you know, we actually really looked into adoption and it just I think more than anything when it got to telling our families is when adoption kind of just felt like it wasn't an option.
Because you understand statistically your daughter stands a much better chance if she's in another family than with you.
Yes.
If kids are adopted into a stable household they have the same outcomes as everyone else.
But if they're in single mom households, the outcomes are much worse.
So you holding on to your daughter, and I hate to say this, these are just the facts, right?
But you holding on to your daughter may have been better for you, but statistically is not better for her.
But sorry, you were saying that adoption, you didn't take that option because telling your, I don't understand, what was that?
Okay, so when I went to tell my family, my family was I mean, to put it lightly, excited.
And, uh, you know, they were excited that you were having a kid with a guy you'd just broken up with who was in a wheelchair.
Yes.
What?
I'm so sorry.
Like Jessica, I, I'm so sorry that you're in this environment.
I'm like, I know I'm nagging at you, but I just to give you the, I'm incredibly sorry that you're in this environment where people See a wolf rushing at them and say, my favorite dog is home.
Let's give it a hug.
Let's rub ourselves and marinate and give it a hug.
Man.
But go on.
Sorry.
They were very excited.
Yeah.
Um, well, my, my mom was excited and my mom, uh, I have another, I have a brother.
Um, he's actually my half brother.
Um, I'm sorry, what now?
How is your half brother?
Now, how is your half brother?
He has a different dad.
Sorry, the marriage with your mom was your mom's second marriage?
No, it was her first marriage.
She had my brother when she was 15.
Oh, seriously?
You could have mentioned that to me when you said you started going off the rails when you were 15, right?
Yeah.
You could have mentioned that to me when we're talking about why you might have had a kid outside a wedlock with a guy who's unsuitable.
Can I go out on a limb here, Jessica, and assume that the guy that your mom got pregnant with when she was 15 was not the most suitable father in the world?
No, I cannot stand the man.
Okay, so we're basically jammed in the blind photocopier of history, right?
That your mom got pregnant with an unsuitable dad prior to being married, and you got pregnant with an unsuitable dad prior to being married.
Boom, boom, boom, photocopy, photocopy, photocopy, right?
Yes.
All right. .
So I'm very sorry.
I'm very sorry for that environment.
That is heartbreaking.
But now I'm just trying to figure out how to make the best of it for a Especially, most importantly for her, my daughter.
Right.
And I, again, I hugely respect and appreciate that.
And I don't want to pretend that I'm missing that.
And I'll repeat it as often, you know, I really respect that you're calling in about that.
Yeah.
What is your mom's, sorry, how's your half brother doing?
Um, Can I go out on a limb here and guess not well?
Just tell me not well if it's not well and we'll move on.
I'm just curious.
Not well.
Not well at all.
Right.
And is there any acknowledgement on the part of either of your parents about the dysfunction of their own previous life choices or your current existing life choices or is this like, yeah, business as usual, this is what happens?
My dad is just, oh, you know, you make mistakes, you learn from it, you move on.
And then my mom, you know, she... Wait, sorry, your mom says you learn from mistakes?
Then why the hell is she so enthusiastic about you being pregnant and keeping a child with an unsuitable dad, which is what she did?
How has she learned from those mistakes?
Look, I ran into a wall.
Oh, look, my daughter's running into a wall.
You go, honey!
No, my dad's the one that says, you know, you learn from your mistakes.
Oh, did he learn from, sorry, but just replace it then, did he learn from his wife's mistakes?
Oh, well, he is the first, he's in the first relationship I've seen him in, so, since they divorced, you know, eight or so years ago.
So, he kind of just steered clear of women.
Great.
But, uh, no, my mom would, um, she, when she talks about, you know, how she's not happy with that, with where I am, she, you know, it's like, oh, I should have been a better role model and all that.
And she says all that, but she says, says it in a way where, you know, I, I should feel guilty for not being better.
And, uh, let's start crying and being all emotional and really isn't sorry.
Yeah.
So she makes it about her.
Yes, absolutely.
Right.
And of course, you know, I mean, she probably has not had the thought that since she made such disastrous decisions when she was younger, that she might need to prepare you to not make those decisions.
Yeah, I mean, I think she thinks she tried to.
But uh, It definitely, um, clearly didn't.
Am I going to assume that, uh, you are committed to peaceful parenting?
Yes.
Okay.
No yelling, no spanking, no punishments, no timeouts, no being sent to your room, no, no food or anything like that, right?
Negotiation all the way?
Yes.
Trying my best.
Wait, wait, wait.
Sorry.
That last bit.
What was that?
Trying my best?
Yes.
Are you going to be here to pick me up at 7?
I'm trying my best.
Wait, wait.
Are you going to be here to pick me up at 7?
What does that mean?
All I mean is there have been times where I've gotten frustrated and I've sat her in her pack and play or her walker and just had to walk out of the room to cool myself down from getting frustrated before I went back in and Tried to work things out again.
Okay.
Yeah, that's, I mean, I can live with that.
Um, that's fine.
So, um, and, uh, Frank, are you down with the program for that as well?
Absolutely.
And are you down with your mom, Jessica, also being down with that program of no punishment, no hitting, no yelling?
Cause she's, she's got big influence on your kid, right?
Yes.
It's been a subject I've argued with her on and she, from what I've seen most of the time, she's good about it.
But more than anything, she just tries to spoil her and just give her everything she wants.
Oh, that's not good.
Oh, that's not good.
So yeah, because no limits, no sanity, no boundaries.
That's very unhealthy as far as I'm concerned.
I agree.
And daycare, no yelling, no timeouts?
No, they don't have any of that.
All right.
All right.
Well, I mean, I would certainly make that an absolute with regards to the mom.
Like if you want to, I mean, I know you need her at the moment, but nonetheless, you know, this is the program, right?
Um, you know, and you can say, um, if you want to, it sounds like it might not be a bad time to have an honest conversation with your mom.
Although it could be risky, of course, depending on how she reacts.
But saying, look, I'm trying to break the cycle.
You had a kid out of wedlock.
I had a kid out of wedlock.
We're not handling the sperm very well, right?
You know, the pucks are getting past the goalie quite regularly when we ain't even signed to a team.
So I don't know if these analogies make any sense to you.
I like to pretend that I know hockey.
Icing?
It's all ice!
Anyway.
Yeah, full ownership, full ownership, which means that you're full, nothing happened to you fully, fully responsible, because that's what you want your daughter to grow up with, right?
Fully responsible.
And all kids will try and weasel out all human beings will try and weasel out of responsibility for what they've done, right?
I mean, any kid, you know, why did you do that?
I didn't do it.
So and so did like, that's just natural, right?
I mean, and the more, of course, the more aggressive you are, the more that's going to be evoked and all that.
But you have to model 100% responsibility.
And I mean, I'm aware of this with my own daughter that I always, I don't ever want to put language in her ear, like stuff just happened to daddy, you know, there was just traffic, I was late.
It's like, no, I didn't leave enough time for traffic.
And that's why I was late.
You know, I don't want her to get the perception that things happen to me, or that I make excuses that 100% ownership for what I have done.
Because that's You know, I assume that your mom, by saying, well, basically stuff happens, you learn for it, you move, like, that's not 100% ownership, not just for the messes that she's made, but for how they've impacted others.
I mean, I don't know.
I gotta tell you, I mean, if I had three affairs, it never happened, but if I had three affairs and broke up my family, I'd have a whole lot of apologizing to do to my daughter.
Sorry, I screwed it up.
So badly.
Sorry, I went out and caught some dick and destroyed the whole family.
Has she ever acknowledged that aspect of the harm she did to your childhood?
Yes, but I still feel like a lot of it she makes it about her.
I'm sorry I couldn't be happy with your father is a phrase I've heard.
Yeah, that's unhappiness just happened to her, right?
Yeah.
Well, I tried to make it work, you know, like you, when you listen back to this, and I hope you will, Jessica, you'll hear, and this is not a criticism, I'm just trying to turn the light on here, but you'll hear the degree to which stuff happens to you when you, when you describe it.
And that's, you'll hear me talk with a bone, right?
Like a viper with a mongoose that I'm going to be pushing back against that.
Because I think that, you know, complete and total self-ownership, And my concern is that you guys' relationship is just happening.
Nobody's really deciding to be there, to not be there.
You're not having the tough conversations that a true commitment would require.
And so what's happening is right now, you're a couple of months, what, five months into living together.
So you're in the massive sexual flush of initial romance, right?
And after that, the responsibilities keep piling up.
The bills keep piling up.
The sex gets more infrequent.
Snappiness builds up.
There's stressors that come in from life as a whole and the sexual excitement phase, which lasts four to six months as far as I know, can't survive reality.
You know, there's a reason why that chick needs to take a helicopter to the spanky pad of the ab-based multi-billionaire in Fifty Shades of Grey.
There can't be any reality.
I can remember when Real Hunter was having that affair with John Edwards.
His wife is going crazy.
Because the wife was like, well, there's no reality.
You guys just meet in hotel rooms and have sex.
I know that's not what you're, but it's like, there's no reality.
No bills.
Nobody's got to take someone to the dentist.
There's no recovery from appendicitis.
Like there's no reality to it.
It's just hot sex in a helicopter.
Right?
And so you guys are in that flush, but I don't know.
I don't know if you're letting your hormones make the decisions or history or momentum or
What but it doesn't seem to me like you guys are sitting down and saying because there's a child involved we can't play with her heart because her heart already got broken once by having a father who left and we really need to figure out what we're doing here and you cannot move in to a single mom's house without commitment because the kids attach to you and it's going to happen.
She probably views you as more her dad than anybody else in the world.
And you cannot play with a toddler's heart.
You can't.
I mean, you know, you know, you know that I don't even need to tell you that.
But you cannot move in and stop parenting without a commitment.
Right?
I remember there's some movie I saw, gosh, years ago.
The woman's a single mom, she's got some kids and her boyfriend is like, Oh, you should put them in private school.
And she's like, I can't afford that.
He's like, I'll pay.
And she's like, for how long?
Because they're not married, right?
If they're married, okay.
She says, for how long will that happen?
And that's important.
How long is this going to go on?
And Frank, are you committed for the long haul?
Now, you don't have to answer that now, but you guys I think really need to have that conversation because I'm telling you, Jessica, if it doesn't work out, And he moves out, your daughter's heart is going to get broken a second time in as many years.
And I think that's going to be very, very hard for her to recover from.
Absolutely.
I definitely agree.
You know, once you have a kid, playtime is over, right?
You can't play house.
You can't date.
I mean, once you have a kid, you are a mommy moat, a grizzly bear.
of bristly forearms encircling your daughter's heart.
And whoever she bonds with better stick around.
No, yeah.
I definitely like to think that that's what this is, but obviously it hasn't been a conversation that's been had.
And of course, you know, you bypass the grieving for what was effectively a marriage, right?
I mean, you were with a guy, you broke up, you got back together, you had a kid, you tried to make it work, you broke up again, you kicked him.
I mean, that's pretty sad.
This is not the Cinderella glass slipper and a prince happily ever after that you wanted, right, Jessica, with the father refusal?
Definitely not.
Yeah, and you haven't processed that grieving at all, right?
Because you basically just jumped into bed with another guy.
I mean, I hate to put it bluntly, but you did and you bypassed all of that grieving and that's going to build up and you can't be emotionally available until you process stuff that's happened to you.
You can't eat a new meal until you've excreted the old one, so to speak, right?
That is also not a very good sign for the future.
And of course, if it doesn't work out now, your temptation, of course, is going to be, as your mom did, to jump into some other guy's bed.
And that is not what you want to be modeling for your daughter, right?
The guy, the woman who can't be without a man and who uses sexuality to get men to come and live with them, pay the bill.
Like you don't want to model that, right?
You want to, that stuff to be not anywhere close to your daughter's processing, right?
Correct.
All right.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
How is the call?
I'm sorry, again, if it's been overly blunt, but, you know, I, uh, no, that's what I expected.
It's what I wanted.
And how has the call been for you in terms of usefulness and annoyance?
I definitely feel in just you getting on me about telling you the story.
I definitely feel like I have a lot more to improve with it than I thought, you know, with taking responsibility.
And so do I, just so you know, like this is not, I'm not on some cloud nine.
Oh, I take 150% for all.
Like I still have to work on that myself.
So this is just a reminder for everyone.
No, I mean, it's something I've heard you say in a couple of your other videos, and it's definitely something I've been trying to work on, and it's definitely different hearing it firsthand, but I've been really happy with this call.
Definitely gave me a lot to think about.
And Frank, I'm sorry for yelling at your penis.
I hope it hasn't become an innie, but how was the conference?
Um, this has been, you said a lot of stuff that I was, that I know I was, that was already on my mind.
And just, I didn't want to talk about.
I'm not sure about that.
I mean, was it good or bad?
Or are you gonna let me know later?
It's, it's a, it's a, it's good that you, I mean, got me thinking about it and got us talking about it.
But just, So I guess the band-aid is off, but so is half the hair on your arm.
Is that a way of putting it?
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
Um, and, and I just wanted to just close off again by saying, it was great to talk with you, Frank.
I'm glad that you were there, but you know, in particular, Jessica, how much fun was it to look forward to this kind of call?
Probably not massive, you know, like my two thirds, I'm going to go to the dentist.
I know I'll feel better at some point.
It's really going to hurt when I'm there.
Right.
So that takes some real courage and, I, you know, I just wanted to say that I really respect and admire your courage in asking some tough questions and getting some feedback that is not always easy to hear.
And I just really, really respect your dedication to your daughter's happiness to give that a shot.
And I think you both did great.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
All right.
All right.
Thanks guys so much.
Will you let us know how things are, how it's going?
Absolutely.
Thanks guys, all the best.
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