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July 13, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:16:18
Taming Your Inner Critic!
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Up next is Andrea.
Andrea wrote in and said, Why do awkward silences in conversation trigger a fight-or-flight response from within?
I've realized awkward silence is uncomfortable for many people, but I think my reactions can be somewhat extreme.
Hello!
Hello!
Go on!
Uh, I'm an Andrea, just in case.
Like, um, mitochondria.
Gotcha!
It's a silent, oh!
And if I may, Stéphane and Michael, you are awesome, amazing.
The show has been so transformative for me and I am a happy donor, so put down that PS2, Stéphane.
I'm sorry, what?
So, I think everything that you said in the last This call really pertains to my question.
I've had a while to think about it, and I think I was kind of pussyfooting around my real question, which is... Oh, thank you.
Andrea, thank you so much for saying that up front.
No, because you'll see... I'm sorry to interrupt, but you see in these calls, people say, I want to talk about X. I'm slowly going to push that to Y.
I'm not going to tell you exactly.
We're just going to drift over this way.
It's not bait and switch.
It's just people change their minds over the course or find something else, maybe even in the same show.
Whatever you want to talk about is fine with me.
I'm really glad you admitted it.
Thank you.
Yeah, I have this sort of glitch in my operating system that tells me that I'm a piece of shit and I'm hateable and that I don't deserve my life.
And I know that's not true.
Just call that a glitch?
Yeah, it is a glitch.
Isn't that a blue screen of death followed by an airstrike and a meteor and a hurricane?
I mean, that's more than a glitch, wouldn't you say?
It doesn't feel like it's really a part of me.
I don't know if I'm saying that right.
It's like this mechanism in my head and at this point, I've done, I'm in a lot of therapy and been doing a lot of work on myself and I can see now that it's not, it doesn't, it feels like a foreign sort of maybe machine in my head because I know that I'm not really that bad.
Oh dear.
Oh dear.
Is this really that... I thought it would be an interesting question.
I'm not really... I'm not really a total piece of shit.
No, I mean, I'm... I mean, obviously there's shit elements.
Maybe even a shit majority.
I'm not perfect.
But I'm not all shit.
I'm sold!
I just smell like shit sometimes.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, anyway, I had Indian tonight.
Let's talk about that another time.
Oh, so, um, yeah, I don't feel like... No, no, stop, stop, stop.
Because, okay, so, um, because you're not talking to me yet, right?
No, I guess I'm just trying to explain, I guess.
So, no, you're, you're plotting, you're maneuvering.
Yeah.
Right?
You're, you're, you're hedging, you're, you're not talking to me yet.
Okay.
And that's fine.
Like, I get this is a new, hopefully this is a new conversation.
We try to have new conversations here.
Otherwise, it's like, how's the weather, blah, blah, blah, right?
But you're not talking to me.
As yet, because if you were, you would have noticed what you were saying, right?
Without needing me to tell you.
I'm not sure I understand because I think I know what I was saying.
But did you know what my response... Did you think that I would stop you when you said it's a glitch that I tell myself I'm a piece of shit?
Well, I've heard you mention that Before in the show, I thought it would be just sort of something that, you know, that you've sort of touched on before.
And I know it's a, it's a, I'm not the only one that feels this way.
Um, so I thought it was sort of more of a, it wouldn't be so unfamiliar.
I feel a little embarrassed right now that it was probably too heavy and that I dropped it.
What are you talking about, young lady?
I feel like I've just grabbed it at a squid.
It's like blurp.
Where did all this ink come from?
Don't fart your skunk juice on me, young lady.
Sorry.
Okay, no problem.
No problem.
Did you think that I would think it was a glitch when you said you're a piece of shit?
Your part of you says that?
Yeah, because I don't feel like it's really how I feel about myself.
It's just sort of there.
So your solution is splitting?
Dissociation, like creating a separate ego, like a colostomy bag, and having it sort of follow you around, that's where the shit collects, but it's not really you?
Yeah, it's just like this sort of tape that runs, you know, on its own, and it especially, it does seem like the bedrock of my thoughts a lot of times.
Okay, so let's not pretend it's something else if it's the bedrock and I appreciate shit that it is because I wouldn't want to talk about something that wasn't important, right?
Okay.
Okay, so to you know, you've been through therapy so I can hit the gas on this one.
Please.
Yeah.
So Andrea, who in your life when you were a child benefited from you thinking that you were a piece of shit?
Oh, I mean, both of my parents for sure.
How?
I mean, you got an ACE score of 5, which is not good.
Yeah, I mean, my father called us leeches all the time.
I mean, I could do his voice and do that whole thing.
No, tell me.
Give me the Andre experience of your dad when you were a kid.
So, he would call us leeches.
He would say, like, you think your shit don't stink?
You think the world owes you something?
Um, there was a lot of, um, explicit, like, um, you can't trust your friends and that your family is the only people that you could trust.
Um, my parents.
Wait.
Yeah.
You're a piece of shit.
Your family is the only person you can trust.
He never said explicitly that I'm a piece of shit.
I don't remember him ever saying that explicitly to me.
Oh.
So I have all these negative things to say about you.
You think you're shit, don't say anything.
You want something for nothing.
Yeah.
But your family's the only person you can trust.
Yeah.
I know.
It's so ass backwards.
And I mean, we were total house slaves and... Wait, what does that mean?
We were just expected to do chores all the time.
And, you know, at the expense of like being kids and, you know, Having our own lives and having fun.
We were isolated a lot.
We were in the house, my younger brothers and I, alone.
Probably younger than we should have been, like latchkey kids.
But we had to keep the shades drawn and pretend like nobody was home.
I think because people were trying to sue my parents.
When I think about it now, I mean, it really felt like a prison.
And, um... I don't mean to laugh, I'm sorry.
They're just things like, um, my father watching us, like, clean the floors, and he would hide a sticker to see if, you know, if the sticker was still there, then we did a crappy job.
Or, like, he would offered to pay me to clean his car.
And then I would do it.
And then he would say I missed something.
And so he just would stiff me.
Stuff like that.
I'm sorry.
I know.
I'm just nervous.
You probably heard me talk about this with a few other people in the show, right?
A lot of other people.
Yeah.
And did you think about that before you started the journey?
I really did.
I didn't think I was going to laugh.
I don't think it's funny.
It's just awkward saying that.
Okay, but what's the laughter for then, right?
I guess shame.
No.
Tears are for shame.
Anger is for shame.
Laughter is for something else, right?
Because I want to cry.
Well, you're inviting me into this like it's a comedy, right?
So Andrea, you're trying to have a conversation with me like isn't this kind of kooky and crazy what my dad did, right?
Yeah.
So you want me to come in as if it's not serious, as if it's not important, as if it's not tragic, but it's kind of kooky and crazy and funny.
Yeah, I guess I kind of... So I need to talk to you, not your goddamn parents.
Right.
Right?
Because what you experienced was pretty tragic.
Very tragic.
Now your parents may, you know, funny stuff happened.
Can you believe it?
You know, it's kind of kooky in hindsight.
Right?
Right.
So that's what I mean when I say you and I not quite having a conversation yet.
Right?
Okay.
Because you're not telling me the facts and letting me have my emotions, but through the laughter and through the peppy, presentation, you are trying to condition my emotional response.
And I'm not blaming you for it.
And I'm not in any way saying it's a negative.
I'm just telling you what I think is happening.
Okay.
Because it's probably kind of unbearable for you to have a direct emotional experience of this that is shared by another person.
Yeah.
Because you said you wanted to cry, right?
Yep.
Right.
I mean, it's something to cry about, isn't it?
Yeah, it's sad.
Hey.
Yeah, it's sad.
I didn't realize I sound like that.
I'm sorry.
It's so sad.
I'm gonna burst into song.
I'm sorry.
I didn't realize.
I know.
Listen, I'm not.
I'm not criticizing.
I mean, I'm not.
And I mean this with sorrow and with respect and with Tenderness that this is hard for you to connect with, right?
I didn't think that it was.
I mean, it's something that, you know, I constantly am trying to work through.
What if you are sad?
You don't have to cry or anything like that, just be who you are.
But if you are sad when talking to me, what's the cost?
Being vulnerable?
Vulnerable is not a cost.
Oh.
Vulnerable is an experience.
The cost is something that you have to pay for in some manner.
It produces some negative experience.
Vulnerability is not that, right?
Oh, how about that I... I mean, I cry on this show like it seems like every other week and I don't consider that a loss or a danger or negative.
Maybe that I have to own it.
No.
No, that sounds like it's coming out of a textbook, you know?
If you talk about these childhood experiences to me with the seriousness and sorrow that they deserve, what is the cost?
I think I need help. - No.
Okay, no, I'm happy to help.
So the cost for your, let's say, and I hate this cliche, but it's appropriate sometimes, right?
The cost for your inner child is non-existent, right?
It's a benefit for your inner child, right?
So your genuine sort of lived childhood experience, if you talk to me about it with the seriousness that it deserves, you know I'm not going to turn and betray you, right?
You know, I'm going to listen and take it seriously and I'm not going to mock you and I'm not going to minimize it and I'm not going to say, Oh, well, you know, that's all in the past.
Fuck it up.
You know, move on.
You've got a bright future ahead of you.
Blah, blah, blah.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm going to, you know, I'm going to listen and care.
So your genuine lived experience is not going to experience a negative in talking to me.
Right.
Okay.
So Who will, in your ecosystem, in your internal array of characters, who will suffer a negative if your childhood experience receives appropriate sympathy?
Well, my parents.
Right.
Yeah.
So you want to talk to me about something.
Your inner parents, I would imagine, are arising and saying, well, you can talk about it, We need to throw some giggles in, we need to throw some sing-song happy voices, we need to try and condition this person to not respond with the appropriate level of sympathy for what you say.
Okay.
Yeah.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it's weird how that happened, because I've heard this same situation so many times on your show.
And, you know, I almost feel like it got, it kind of snuck up on me.
It's weird how we're all human.
Yes.
Alright, and what are you thinking and feeling now?
I guess I'm thinking, I'm feeling that I'm not as far along my path as I thought I was.
I don't have a relationship with my parents and I'm I'm very okay with that.
I didn't realize that they were alive and strong in my head.
Well, who else do you think is calling you negative things?
Yeah, you're right.
And in fact, when I asked you what you felt, you gave me a negative judgment.
You did not give me a feeling.
Do you remember what it was?
That I criticized myself for not being as far along as I thought I was?
Yeah, you gave yourself a criticism rather than telling me how you felt.
Oh, you busted me!
No, listen, the parents are strong in this one, Luke.
Right?
Yeah.
So what were you feeling rather than giving yourself a negative judgment on the journey, the path, the whatever?
Angry?
I feel angry.
Okay.
Go on.
If these thoughts are from my inner parents, and, you know, I've been doing the work, like, trying to get through this, and, you know, for the most part right now, I have a great life, and
I really, I want to own it and I want to be more present in it and I want to be big and these thoughts are, they're paralyzing me.
Which thoughts?
The thoughts that I'm a piece of shit and I don't deserve my life and that I'm hateable.
Right.
It makes me so angry.
I'm so done with this.
I have a few really great friends that are supportive.
I have an amazing husband.
I have close relationships with my brothers.
I have every avenue, all kinds of access available to take my work out in a big way.
I have skills.
And I'm just stuck living small.
And I just feel like I keep hitting a brick wall.
And in the speech that you gave in the last call about the crossroads and about the prison and those just really resonated with me because I really feel like I'm at a crossroads.
Like it's time, you know, for me to launch.
There's no one In my way, there's nothing in my way but me.
No, no, no, no.
Oh, God.
You self-criticized again.
Doing so well.
Nothing in your way but you?
Well, I guess I don't have any... A CE of five?
You were molested as a child, right?
I mean, there was one time that I remember.
Yeah, but but you were.
And You were a house slave.
You had to live like a mushroom with the shades drawn and not answer the door and not answer the phone and not make too much noise in case people came by.
You were tricked into cleaning your dad's car and then he found it dissatisfying and didn't pay you and stickers on the ground if you didn't clean correctly.
You went to work all the time.
You suffered verbal abuse.
Right?
You suffered neglect.
You had a household member depressed, mentally ill, who had a suicide attempt.
No family love or support.
You cannot tell me that somehow you, with this experience, are in your own way.
It's like me saying, well, I never learned Japanese growing up, and now I don't speak Japanese because I'm just in my own way.
Yeah.
you You were not just in your own way.
You were traumatized.
Right?
- Yeah. - You were harmed?
Yeah.
And so I can't accept it if you say that you are in your own way.
I just can't blame anything else externally.
Why?
Because, um, I have no external reason not to.
I, um, I have, I have my skills I think are great and they're ready.
Um, I've got... Oh, wait.
So you feel, sorry to interrupt, but you feel that the external stimuli is gone?
I feel like in terms of taking my workout into the world, I'm at that crossroads where I could really do it and there's nothing externally stopping me.
Right.
So the moment a man comes home from war, he is at peace because he's no longer at war, right?
There's no after effects, there's no lingering, there's no stuff, right?
Yeah, I know.
He's hot.
No shells, no bullets, you should be fine, right?
No.
Let's go see Saving Private Ryan and then drop a bunch of potpans in the kitchen.
The war comes on, right?
Childhood reaches its tendrils and tentacles into adulthood.
You know the old poem, the child is the mother of the woman.
Childhood does not end.
You're a native English speaker because you were a child.
What language you speak?
English.
Can you ever be spoken to in English and not understand it?
No.
And so it is another form to me of calling yourself a piece of shit to say that you should be over your traumas or your trauma should not affect you anymore.
In other words, what you're saying is you should be someone who was not traumatized, but you were traumatized for many years, right?
Yeah.
That cannot be that you weren't traumatized.
Now, this doesn't mean that trauma now defines you and you can never change.
That's the other extreme, right?
Right.
Just because I didn't grow up learning Japanese doesn't mean I can't speak Japanese.
It's just harder, right?
Right.
But I first have to accept that it's not my fault I didn't grow up with Japanese parents, right?
We're probably overusing the Japanese thing.
It's very appropriate.
You had bad fortune with your parents, right?
Yes.
Very bad fortune with your parents.
It has lingering effects that require the opposite of what was inflicted, right?
Healing requires the opposite of what was inflicted, right?
If you had a loud noise in your ear, you need quiet, right?
Yes.
If you were at war, you need peace.
And if you were insulted, Andrea, what do you need?
Acceptance and love.
Gentleness, acceptance, and love and sympathy.
Yeah.
Do you do that with yourself?
I don't, I don't know how.
I was just having this conversation about self-compassion and self-love.
And even the phrase self-love, I just, I get a reaction to it.
I mean, I can think of how I would treat my niece and how, if I thought of myself as my niece, how I would want her to be treated.
And then it makes a little bit more sense to me.
What is your emotional reaction to the phrase self-love?
Like, um, again, it's just old stuff, but, um, like being stuck up or selfish.
Oh, like vanity.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, that was another, uh, real derogatory term that was used in my upbringing was like, oh, you're just selfish.
But it was totally just a, you know, being selfish is really just not going against, you know, what their needs were.
Yeah.
In other words, you're interfering with my selfishness.
I'm going to call you selfish.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And the other thing too, is that the word selfish doesn't work on selfish people.
Huh?
Right.
The word selfish only works on people who have compassion.
No, seriously.
Does the word racist work against a Klan member?
No.
No, he's like, Yeah, I'm racist.
The pointy hat might have been a clue.
Proud of it, right?
Right.
And so The word racist only works on people who view racism negatively, right?
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And so the word selfish only works if you care about other people's feelings.
And when I say only selfish people use the word selfish, it's particularly on children, it's selfish is a hurtful word to use on someone.
So when you call a child selfish, you're saying, I am now going to hurt you And I think it's a good thing to hurt you, which is clearly not having any compassion or empathy, and it only works on kids who have compassion and empathy.
Otherwise, you're basically calling Hitler anti-Semitic.
He's like, yeah, you probably read my book.
Right?
Right.
Anti-Semitic only works on people who view it as a negative.
Exactly.
Racist only works on people who view it as a negative.
Selfish only works on people who view it as a negative.
And it's almost always used by people who are being selfish against people who are not being selfish.
Like racist is almost always used in my opinion and experience.
It's almost always used against people who view racism negatively and are probably not being racist.
And it's almost always used by people who are racist.
Vote for Obama or you're a racist.
What?
So I should make my decisions based upon his race and his race alone, but not be racist.
What?
Only judge him by his race, but don't be racist.
What?
Go to the NAACP and say, you know, you guys are really there promoting just the interest of black people.
That seems kind of racist.
They're like, yep, you may have noticed the letters.
It's not Chinese people.
Right?
So, and the reason I want to get, it's, you know, projection, right?
Your parents say selfish to you.
Did it hurt?
Yeah.
It was just the way they said it.
Did you want to be selfish?
No, no.
Right.
Right.
If you had said to your parents, I don't understand mom and dad, what's your definition of selfishness?
What would they say?
I think they would say if they were being honest, that you're, you're just doing what you want and not what I want.
Okay, so then one of us has to be selfish, right?
You just don't like that it's me at this point, right?
Yeah, I think that's how they would view it.
Right.
So would they say that it's the parent's job to do what the kids do more, or want to do more?
Or would they say that it's the children's job to do what the parents want?
Oh, yeah, the latter is what they would say.
I mean, we were just extra limbs to them, you know?
Right.
Right.
Free labor.
Free lager?
Sorry, free labor.
Free labor, right.
Yeah.
Or cheap labor.
Yeah.
Right.
So they wouldn't have any objective definition of selfishness other than it's a word when I want to win and I want you to lose.
When I want to dominate you and have you obey me, I will say a hurtful word that is actually describing my actions and the opposite of your actions And use it to hurt you so that you will conform rather than face more pain of being called selfish.
Yep.
Right.
Which is being hurt for your virtues by people who don't possess them.
Very much so.
We were, you know, expected to be
uh completely virtuous to um have really strong integrity but they would get away with everything that they could um it was a very strange situation i mean all of their stories were about how they ripped someone off or how you know they wait what do you mean yeah what do you mean they would rip someone off like um I'm not disagreeing with you and I'm not opposing you.
I'm just curious what you mean by that.
My father used to have some businesses back before I was born.
It was a gas station and people would come to get their oil changed and all he would do was wash the car and people would come back and say how much better their car
road because of the car wash, I mean because of the oil change and you know they would laugh about it or I mean they would have stories about you know just how they busted my older brother you know he was at seven years old left at home supposed to be doing all the dishes and the dishes started disappearing and they found them underneath the house and they were like laughing about it like they busted him but you know nobody ever thought like what is a seven-year-old doing at home
I mean, hey, what are you doing?
What are you doing?
I laughed again.
I'm sorry.
You started getting this like happy lilting your voice like this was like, I'm tired of talking to your parents.
I'm sorry.
I, I'm kind of, uh, I'm not trying to be mean.
I just, I want to be sharp because no, I don't want to talk being fair.
I have this, um, we call it the it's gross, but, uh, my alter ego, a cheerleading clown, and it comes out in conversation.
Sometimes it's awful.
Yeah.
Yeah, so your parents, your dad would make jokes about ripping, stealing from people. - Yeah.
And putting them in danger, too, right?
That their car might seize up, damage their whole motor, they could get stranded somewhere, right?
All of his stories had that same theme.
Terrible.
But would he characterize that as selfish in his part, or just, you know, funny?
It's funny.
Funny old story.
Yeah, and probably lies.
You think?
I mean, not lies that he didn't change people's oil, but lies that the people came back and said, how great the car was running, right?
Maybe so.
That's, I mean, I've had my oil changed many times in my car.
I have never gone back and said, how great my car is!
Like, that's just a lie.
Yeah, we'll make your car drive better.
But I'll tell you, I always have to watch when I get my oil changed now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean, a seven-year-old boy who's hiding dishes when he's left home alone to clean them, that's not a good story.
No, what was he doing home alone?
Because that's fear.
They probably never even showed him how to do the dishes.
Well, even if they did or didn't, that's fear.
Yeah.
He's hiding things because he's afraid of the consequences.
I see that.
Right?
Yeah, there were a few stories along that same theme when he was that age and, you know, all about him getting caught doing things while he was home alone at seven years old.
Right, which is kind of illegal.
Yeah, I mean it probably was the same feeling that my younger brothers and I had being alone and having to pretend like nobody's there because we probably shouldn't have been home alone to begin with.
Okay, so Andrea you said you had a close relationship, you have close relationships with your brother.
Yes, all three brothers.
Did they bring you up short when you start giggling about this, these disasters?
What do you mean?
Do they do what I'm doing when you start laughing about this?
One of them does.
But not enough to have broken the habit as yet, right?
No.
He's the one that got left behind.
It's very painful.
What do you mean?
He's still bankrolled by my parents.
He has a couple of serious illnesses.
And so it's more of a challenge for him to go out on his own.
But I think that, you know, the cards are stacked against him.
And all of my other brothers and I have tried to rescue him at some point.
But your other brothers don't stop the What did you call it?
Rabbit cheerleader?
It's the cheerleader clown.
No, they don't laugh about it.
They don't laugh about it.
We're all in different stages of non-relationship with my parents.
Of course, I'm the one that doesn't talk to them at all.
I live in a different city, thankfully, and I'm just not interested.
They all struggle with it on some level.
My oldest brother is adopted and so his issue is... It's different for him.
Okay.
Do you want me to keep asking questions?
What do you think would be most helpful?
Well, I'm really excited about this call to get a new perspective and we're definitely... It's already happening.
I don't know if I've accurately maybe explained what I wanted to get out of the call or do you feel like that's clear to you?
It's not clear.
I certainly would be happy to hear.
Yeah, the stuff that I described to you, it was awful.
And I agree that it was traumatic, and there was a time where it felt like my parents were living right next door to me, and it was awful.
I don't necessarily feel that way right now, and to be honest, I love my life right now.
I really do.
And... No.
No.
Why not?
No, no, look, I'm not saying you don't.
I'm not saying you don't, but I'm saying there's a contradiction.
Do you know what the contradiction is when you say that you love your life?
The only one that I can see is that, well, I mean, can I love my life and still have the mechanism that says I'm a piece of shit?
What do you think?
But that's not the contradiction I'm thinking of.
But that's a very good one.
Well, I guess because I don't really believe it, maybe that you're saying that maybe that you're saying that the trauma is still with me And so I can't fully... No, no, no, you're not answering the question.
Do you think that it's possible to love your life and still have, as you said, at the bottom of your beliefs that you're a piece of shit?
I guess I love my outer world. - Okay.
All right.
The other thing that you said to me earlier, Andrea, is you said that my speech about the prison... Yes.
And the choices was resonating with you because you feel in a box.
You feel like restricted.
You feel small.
I feel small.
Which is not a criticism.
I'm just saying that if you say, deep down, I think I'm a piece of shit.
I feel I'm in a prison.
I feel my life is small.
I feel trapped.
And I love my life.
I'm confused.
Yeah, it's confusion.
I feel confused.
The prison feeling... Well, look, which one is the truth?
They can't both be true.
I think that you say that you love your life kind of like a pamphlet or a commercial, right?
Okay.
Right?
Like, if you say you love your life, then, you know, that presents a certain image of you that is a benefit to you in some manner, right?
Now, I'm not saying you hate your life.
I'm not saying that at all.
I'm not saying you have a terrible life.
You might have a great life.
But what I'm saying is that you don't notice the contradiction, which means that you're still not quite connecting with me yet, right?
When you connect with someone, you notice when you have contradictions.
If you're shifting in and out of manipulation, and by manipulation, I'm not accusing you of anything negative or nasty or anything like that.
But what I mean is that You are still trying to manage my responses by giving me statements which contradict each other as if they don't.
And the only way that that would work on me is if I were dissociated as well.
If I were only listening to the moment and not to your conversation as a whole.
In other words, if I was waiting to manipulate you, I'd let you get away with manipulating me, but I'm not.
So I'm not fully present in the conversation?
No.
You can't be, because you don't even notice that you've been telling me opposite things.
Which means you're trying to do something in the moment that is disconnected from what you did before.
Do you know what I'm disconnecting from?
Well, obviously my upbringing.
Did you have to put on a happy front when out with your parents?
I think I had to manage a lot of crappy situations that I had no control over.
with your parents?
I think I had to manage a lot of crappy situations that I had no control over.
You called yourself a clown cheerleader.
Did you have to put on a positive spin about your family or about your life when you were a child?
Yeah, I guess to the outer world I did.
There was a time that I thought... The whole point is to the outer world!
I said when you were out!
I'm sorry.
I get it.
I just... Let's be more efficient than this, right?
You had to put on a happy face outside of the family trauma, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So that's why you're telling me you love your life.
Because that's the commandment.
When you're out there, you better be fucking happy, Andrea.
You better not tell any people about the trauma that's going on.
You better not let them know by word or fucking deed, or pause, or emphasis, or raised voice, or lowered voice, or any goddamn way.
You better not tell people what's going on in this household.
They better not know.
So here are your fucking pom-poms.
moms go cheer for the family.
I have a way of being overly enthusiastic and there was a time where I thought that my family My identity was... You don't have a habit of being overly enthusiastic.
Overly enthusiastic was a survival mechanism necessary for the family structure, right?
I think being small was the habit that was necessary and just to kind of stay out of the way.
And cheerleading?
Yeah, I guess when I was asked to maybe like to mediate in my parents' problems.
It's more about, I guess, being a pleaser and anticipating people's wants, I guess.
Did you ever hang out at your dad's garage?
He didn't have a... But yeah, I hung out at work with him.
He's a salesman. - What do you mean by he's a salesman?
Well, he was a sales rep for a while and he used to take us sometimes on, you know, we need to go visit his customers and then now he has some warehouses.
I used to work for him a while back.
No, but you told me he was a cheat, right?
He was a what?
A cheat.
Yeah, he's a cheat, yeah.
Okay, so let's call things by their proper names, right?
Don't be a salesman for your dad by calling him a salesman.
He was a cheat, right?
Yeah, he is a cheat.
Okay, he was a cheat, he is a cheat, right?
Yeah.
So could you be honest with your dad's clients about your dad?
No.
Right.
Could you be honest with your friends about your dad?
No, not when I was in the shits.
Not when I was in there.
No.
Now I can.
No, no, I'm talking about as a kid.
No, not as a kid.
No.
Could you be honest with your dad about your dad?
No.
Why are you laughing?
Just because the idea of it is so absurd that I would put him in... No, no, Andrea.
The idea of it is not absurd.
It is traumatic.
You could not be honest to your father about your father.
And I bet you dollars to donuts that you had to think he was a good guy.
Yeah, because he was terrifying.
A smart guy, a cunning guy, a guy who got ahead, a guy who won, a guy who beat others, a guy who made money off fools, right?
You couldn't say, Dad, you're stealing from people, don't you?
Dad, you're putting people in danger.
Dad, you're lying to people.
Dad, the food that you put in my mouth comes from theft.
Right?
I could never say that.
Why?
What would happen if you did?
He would fly off the handle.
He's emotionally volatile.
It's scary.
What would happen?
What would he do?
At least scream, call us names, or ignore us.
A lot of times after flying off the handle and who knows what, I remember him ignoring me once for like three months in the same house.
And do you remember what you did to deserve such abuse?
No, I have no idea.
I mean, I probably disagreed with him.
And he ignored you?
I mean, like he wouldn't talk to you for three months in the same house?
Yeah, we were in the same house.
And I remember there was some holiday or something.
He's Israeli.
We went to, it was some kind of holiday about forgiveness and everybody's hugging and shaking hands at the end of it.
And he wouldn't even look at me.
Wow.
I mean, that's his major tactic is ignoring that.
And, you know, he's done that recently to one of my brothers and, um, you know, I think he's kind of a piece of shit.
Well, I'm sure he only stole from the goyim, so I think that's okay.
You get how astoundingly vicious that is.
You're a fucking coward.
Yeah.
To ignore your child, to ostracize your child in the same house is so absolutely vicious because the child needs the parent.
The threats of non-engagement, the threats of abandonment, the threats of ostracism is a death threat to the child.
Yeah.
My mom did it too.
Okay, you're drifting off into fucking cheerleader land.
Yeah, my mom did.
No, no, no.
And you couldn't even appeal to your mom and say, Mom, what the fuck is wrong with Dad?
No, because then she would start venting about her problems with him.
Oh, you think you as the child have problems, who was not here by choice?
Look at me, who chose him by the law, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Did your mom work?
Did she also have the same lack of ethics that your father had?
I don't think so.
I know she was kind of known as a whistleblower in her job.
Did she know about your dad's cheating and lying?
Yeah.
Yeah.
She had obviously no particular problems with it, right?
No, I'm trying to think.
Could have whistleblowed on your dad!
Yeah, I mean, she stood to benefit from that stuff.
In their early days, it was the two of them doing that stuff.
It wasn't just him.
Oh, so in the early days your mom was also cheating?
Yeah, they were working together trying to make ends meet or whatever.
My mom, though she's a liar, she's not an honest person.
Okay, so you've just basically done 360s?
Right.
I was just trying to think of examples.
Do you know that you do these 360s, Andrea?
I never realized it before.
I always thought I was pretty Straight.
I was... Yeah, because you start giving me the party line, right?
You start giving me the propaganda.
No, she was dishonest.
She was a whistleblower, you know, blah, blah, blah.
And then you end up, yeah, she was dishonest.
She partnered with my dad and... Stefan, I don't want to defend my parents.
I don't... I don't... I'm not saying you do.
Did I impute any motives to what you're doing?
I'm just surprised that it's coming off like I am because No, it's not coming off like you are.
You are.
And to your credit, you are shifting from their perspective to your perspective, to your huge credit.
Right?
That sounds crazy.
But I don't know the degree to which you're aware of that.
No, I'm not aware of it.
Right.
I mean, when you listen back to this, and I certainly hope that you do, I will.
You will be shocked.
And not bad.
Nothing you're doing is bad or wrong and I hope I'm not coming across as critical at all.
But I need to say what is happening.
My parents are not trustworthy people.
I don't trust them.
Yes, okay.
Okay, this is fantastic.
That's what's called a breakthrough.
Do you know why?
Who told you...
Negative things about yourself.
My father, specifically.
And your mother.
Yeah, and my mother.
Okay.
They are untrustworthy people.
They are liars and they are cheats.
What does that mean about what they told you about yourself?
That they're lying and they're cheating me.
Yep.
And if you confront it at that level, at that fundamental level, A liar told me I was a bad person.
a cheat told me I was doing something wrong then you can challenge the language because the language comes from the Lord of lies The judgment comes from an untrustworthy person.
I'm a counterfeiter, Andrea.
Would you like my money?
No.
No?
Your money is shit.
Because you just told me you're a counterfeiter.
I cheat people, Andrea.
You're selfish.
You're a cheat.
Exactly!
Why would I listen to the judgment of me from a liar and a cheat?
I mean, I wouldn't consciously.
I guess it's just I'm believing judgments from people I don't even want in my life.
Right.
And that is the connection that is missing.
You think it's you telling you this stuff.
It's not.
It's your parents telling you this stuff.
You don't want your parents in your life because they're abusive and liars and cheats and this and that and the other.
But the voices that your parents have embedded within your mind are not being subjected to the same evaluation.
The voices in our head from abusers are no more valid than the voices of abusers.
There is no...
I'm for universality, right?
If a man tells me a lie yesterday, it doesn't become true today, right?
It's still a lie.
He still told me a lie, right?
Yeah.
So what your parents told you when you were a child, given the nature of their characters and the immorality of their personalities and their choices, they are self-admitted liars and cheats and everything they said to you Is it the very best suspect and the very worst dismissible?
Yeah.
Wow.
I thought that, um, after the last call that, that these things were no more than me keeping myself in a state of victimhood.
You were in a state of victimhood and your victimhood is to not universalize your opposition to this destructive language.
Now, the voices in your head were there to protect you from your parents.
You know that, right?
So the reason that you would call yourself a piece of shit is because if you didn't call yourself a piece of shit, you might accidentally call your dad a piece of shit and then really bad things might happen.
So the voice in your head that is insulting you is doing so because it's easier to hit yourself than have someone else hit you.
It's safer to hit yourself than have someone else hit you, right?
So it's not like the voices in your head are not your parents.
They are salvation from your parents.
Yes.
But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be challenged.
You know, like if you've swum for a whole day and then you get up on shore and you're half-dazed, your muscles are still going to want to keep swimming, right?
And you say, man, relax, we're on the shore, right?
But philosophy, particularly moral philosophy, if somebody who is a piece of shit calls you a piece of shit, that has no credence in the mind of any rational person.
And it doesn't mean that that means it's gone.
I'm just, I'm giving you a perspective that is worth working towards over time.
Because look, if I have negative thoughts about myself, I have two magic words, two magic words to solve it.
Would you like to know what they are?
Yes, please.
Okay.
The magic words are... Yes.
Are you ready?
Prove it.
Prove it.
Ah, you're a piece of shit.
Really.
Prove it.
Right.
I mean, that's where I get stuck is that I don't really have any evidence that I'm a piece of shit.
It just feels like it's an implant or something.
Yeah, but prove it is the first part.
The second part is another two words.
What?
Can't prove it?
Fuck off!
Talk to me another way.
You got something to tell me?
Talk to me another way.
Think I'm a piece of shit?
Prove it.
If you can't prove it, you're being abusive?
Fuck off!
So you say that Find another way to tell me whatever you want to tell me, but don't abuse me.
And that's something that you can sort of address to the voice?
To the sound?
I mean... Do you want to take it for a spin?
Yeah.
Okay, so you be, like, dig up the shittiest inner voice, the nastiest inner voice you got.
I'll be you.
Let me have it.
Okay, um... Like, bleah, bleah!
Give me a bleah!
Everyone hates you.
Your husband hates you.
He's just trying to be nice to you.
Your friends are... It's only going to be a matter of time before they catch on and see that you're a piece of shit.
You're average at best.
You shouldn't even bother putting your work out into the world.
Just keep cleaning.
Yeah, nobody wants to be around you and they're just... They're just being nice to you and they just want to use you.
Okay, those are some pretty strong charges.
What's your evidence?
Right?
And know this, if you've got no evidence, you're being an asshole.
Like, you're the piece of shit if you can't prove that to me.
Then everything you're calling me is actually a description of a goddamn mirror, not a window.
So I'm happy to hear, I'm kind of pissed, because this is some pretty serious charges.
You better give me some proof, or you have to accept that you're being a total prick.
So what's your proof?
Hmm.
I don't have any proof.
I got nothing.
So what the fuck are you doing?
What are you trying to achieve here?
What, what, what is the purpose of just coming in and taking a deep dump all over my heart?
Like, what are you trying to do here?
I've been getting so angry and frustrated, but I never thought to just call it out.
I can hear- No, don't keep on the roleplay!
Don't jump out!
Trust me, they're not giving up that easy.
One challenge does not an elimination of a negative self-image make.
Oh, there's a bumper sticker for you.
Okay, so let's go back in.
Because look, Inner Voices, it's UPP.
If somebody talks to you like that in your real life, You'd be like, well, that's some pretty strong charges.
Care to give me some evidence?
And by the way, if you can't give me evidence, you're an asshole, right?
Okay, so let's go back to the voice.
You say what, like, the voice says, I've got no proof, right?
Of course, you're not a piece of shit.
Of course, your husband and friends don't hate you.
And they're just putting up with you for using your whatever, right?
Right?
I mean, of course, right.
So let's go back to I say to the voice, What are you trying to achieve with this?
What's the point?
Do you think I won't listen to you if you're not screaming at me?
What's going on?
Why would you say all these horrible things to me without any proof?
Because I don't want other people to say them to you.
So your idea of protecting me from verbal abuse is a massive torrent of verbal abuse.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you think that's do you think that's the very best way you can help me now?
I mean, I get in the past.
Thank you.
You know, in the past, you internalize my dad's voice, you internalize my mom's voice, you kept me from danger.
So massive thanks and gratitude for your service.
They're not around right now.
So you've kind of become the asshole you were supposed to protect me from.
Is that the very best way for us to do this?
No, I can be better.
I can tell you things.
How can I help you to communicate what you need to tell me without this, like, right?
Not calling in this airstrike of horrible language.
I mean, I want to listen, but what can I do to help you talk to me in a way that's not so, I mean, it's destructive, right?
Yeah.
So what do you need from me?
What do I need from you?
I mean, you don't like the taste of those words in your mouth deep down, right?
This is not what you want to spend the rest of your life in my head doing.
No, they're ugly and they're mean.
I would rather tell you things that will help you and feed you and Help you be in the present moment so you can enjoy your life.
And you don't think that what I produce is really that bad, right?
You probably just want to save me from being upset if it gets rejected, right?
Yeah, and I just don't want it to come out of the blue if somebody actually says that to you.
Yeah, if somebody says, I don't like what you've created, you're kind of trying to protect me from that, right?
But you're kind of also protecting me from success too, right?
Like, you're not just turning off a dimmer switch, you're just shooting out the light bulbs, right?
Yeah, that's what I'm doing.
And look, we can survive if somebody doesn't like what we're doing, right?
I mean, and I'm smiling here, and I don't mean, like, I take with all seriousness, you are trying to protect me from some serious bullets of history, right?
Yes.
But people who may not like what we create, are not the same as mom and dad, right?
No, they're not.
They probably feel kind of similar to you, which I understand because you're like Defendobot, right?
I mean, you are like the defense robot.
But you get that if we can't accept any failure or any rejection whatsoever, you know, we're both kind of stifled a little, right?
And you're stuck in this role of being like eternal sentry with like aching feet and constant finger on the trigger shit, right?
Now, I've done a lot, right, to sort of keep our environment safe and secure.
I've done a lot.
What more do I need to do to help you to relax some of this, right, this aggression?
I need to be reminded that I'm not back in the prison anymore, that the prison door is open and I don't need to protect you from the same things as I did before.
It's a different time.
And is there anything that you would like to do that would be really fun for you?
Because the opposite of defense is enjoyment, right?
Yes.
Right.
So is there anything that you would really like to do?
Any food, any activities, any sports?
You want to go to a roller coaster?
Is there anything that you would like to do that would be a nice break from this hair trigger tension, eternal battle, right?
Yeah, there would be something I would like to do.
I would like to Take our work seriously and take it to the next level to remind us of where we are now and what we could be.
Now when you say take the work seriously, what does that mean?
I want to make sure I really understand what you're saying.
What would that look like?
How do we know if we're taking the work seriously?
It would mean outsourcing, having other Hiring out other people to do all of the small stuff.
So that we could focus on what we add the most value to, right?
Yes.
And so that we can grow and see what we can be.
Right, so if we can get rid of the distractions and we can focus on what we really can create that adds the most value, that would be really exciting for you, right?
Yes!
Well, I need that from you.
Look, I hate to tell you I need, I need, I need, because I know you've been doing a huge and fantastic job of protecting us for so long, which is a shitty job, but I need that clarity from you.
Right?
Because, you know, I get distracted.
I get scared partly by you.
And, you know, if we're more on the same side, then we can both get more of what we want.
What you just said is hugely important to me and is an incredible, immense value for me that literally could save me years of my life.
And I, you know, if that's better than, you know, the historical scream fest that I hugely respect you for doing.
Which you, you know, saved my life for doing.
But if we can have these kinds of conversations, I mean, that's got to be more fun for you too.
Yeah, I don't want to be at war anymore.
Right.
And it sucks that you were, right?
There's certain parts of us that get promoted to sentry duty when we're in dangerous situations and we grew up in dangerous situations.
There are part of us that get promoted to sentry duty and my God, I'm sorry it was you.
I mean, thank you.
I'm incredibly sorry it was you because that's not what you wanted to be doing with your childhood.
What did you most want to be doing with your childhood?
I wanted to be drawing pictures and learning new things, playing sports, learning an instrument maybe, making friends.
Yeah.
Right.
Maybe having the, getting outside, you know, not in the home with the windows drawn and curtains drawn.
Yeah, that's not where I wanted to be.
That was weird.
Well, it was more than weird.
It was horrible, right?
Yeah.
It was isolating and terrible.
It was terrible.
And there was no escape.
No.
I mean, we're out now, but back then there was no escape, which means no relaxation of guard, right?
Right, we're out now.
That's what it feels like, is that the prison door is open, and I can go out and get some fresh air, and it's a little scary, and it's a little nice, but then I end up going back into the cell.
Even though I know... Now, how can I help with that?
Because the cell means frustration, means aggression, and means that you still think you're protecting us from a danger that's not here anymore, as much.
And you've kind of become the danger that you wanted to protect, right?
Which obviously is not what you want and not what you're there for and not how you want to spend the rest of your time with all of us in the head, right?
In the heart.
So what can I do to help you not feel like you're going back into a prison?
How can I keep this communication channel open?
I guess I need help.
I'm not sure how to answer it except I want to feel free.
I don't know What that would take?
Is there any danger in our life at the moment that's provoking it?
Any change?
Sorry, is there any danger in our life at the moment that's provoking it?
No danger, no.
If you don't get listened to, does it tend to escalate?
Oh yeah, it triggers me big time.
Because then you feel Like I felt when dad was ignoring us, right?
Okay.
So maybe instead of sort of hiding from you out of fear, I need to check in with you more regularly so that you feel heard because the way that I want to work our head and our heart is everyone gets a seat at the table, right?
You have incredibly important things to add.
You saved our life.
You are a hero with a bit of a potty mouth, but you are a hero and that's fantastic.
And so, you know, every morning, Maybe what we can do, you know, just for me, Andrea, the writing scripts, like pretending I'm writing a dialogue out with a character is a way that I keep in contact with inner alters.
But maybe for a little while to integrate and to make the alter feel listened to, you can say, you know, how's it going this morning?
What did you think?
How did you sleep?
What did you dream?
What's going on in life that I need to know about and engage in a conversation.
Inner egos, or inner alter egos, often get, in my opinion, they often get aggressive when they're not consulted.
And the reason we don't consult them is because they're aggressive, and then they get more aggressive because we don't consult them, and then we shy away from them even more, which makes them more aggressive, which, right, all that, right?
That makes a lot of sense.
But if you consult, you deflate the aggression.
And you enroll participation and a sense of value, a sense of having something to contribute, right?
Yeah.
I see where I've been.
Just fighting this inner alter ego rather than bringing it in, I guess.
Right.
And it's weird because, of course, it's not what you do with outside abusers.
You don't invite them in and have them come live with you, right?
But inner abusers or inner abusive voices, we can.
You know, they're in our head.
The call is coming from inside the house.
There's no door to lock.
You can't separate from abusive voices.
You have to find a way to listen and get them enrolled.
And they're not abusers.
They are the scar tissue of abusers.
And like all scar tissue, they're there to protect and heal.
That's wonderful.
You know, I had thought that this is just, this voice is just something that I'm going to need to manage the rest of my life and just, you know, keep it in, you know, a little cage in my head and, you know, okay, I hear you, but I'm not going to think that way right now.
Yeah.
Be assertive and inviting.
I have found that to me, like don't put up with any shit, but don't be aggressive back.
Be assertive, but inviting is to me at least the best.
I don't have any proof of that.
It's just my experience and opinion.
I think it worked fairly well with this voice, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, I really do.
I just thought it was just some old shrapnel, but not an alter ego that would have something valuable to say.
I thought what the alter ego had to say was incredible.
Yeah.
I mean, outsource the crap and focus on the value added?
Damn, that's good, right?
Yeah, that's really good.
Yeah, this is very helpful.
This is exactly what I needed.
I just needed to have a new way of dealing with the voice.
You try different keys, right?
You try different keys.
And so, you know, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is, you know, if you have time now, just sit down, you can write it out, hand puppets, doesn't matter what gets the inner voice to communicate with you, but to write it out and continue to follow up and continue to ask questions.
And you don't have to do that for the rest of your life because, you know, through that process, through that habit, It will become just a process of being alive, right?
Meditation, mulling over things, you can ask yourself questions and get answers.
But when something has been un-listened to for a long time, a conscious process of focusing on listening through whatever method works, I think is the best approach.
And then it will eventually become, or not even eventually, but relatively quickly it will become an automatic process of self-integration.
Does that make any sense?
It really does.
This is tremendously helpful, Stefan.
Good.
Good.
I'm sorry it took a while, but you know, I mean, hey, it's not how long it takes, it's what you get.
I'm sorry it took a while.
No, it's no problem.
You did a great job.
Thank you.
I mean, you did a great job.
What can I say?
It was magnificent.
So I got some work to do now.
Yes, I think so.
I think so.
All right.
Anything else you wanted to add?
I don't think so.
I think you nailed it.
Good.
Well, keep us posted about how it goes.
Do give my best to the alters.
Thank you.
Fantastic.
All right.
Well, thanks everyone for another wonderful, wonderful meat and potatoes and vegetables and fine curdled broth of historical clarity kind of meal.
It's always a privilege and always an honor to talk with you, the fine listeners.
Nothing to be said other than donations again as always more than welcome.
FDRURL.com slash donate to Mariariario.
We should have Vine Rand part two up and part three is mostly done but not yet recorded.
So I hope we get to get to that this week.
But thanks again to the callers.
Thanks to Mike.
Thanks to you, the listeners who make it all possible.
This is Sven Molyneux for Freedom Aid Radio.
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