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July 13, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
29:04
MYSTICISM
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Over the past, it's obvious there has been a co-opting, distortion, and abuse of what we call, quote, mysticism, end quote, or, quote, religion, end quote, both in its esoteric form, i.e.
Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and in its somewhat more esoteric tradition, i.e.
yoga traditions, Buddhism, psychedelics, shamanism, Kabbalah, etc.
If we denounce mysticism altogether because of its recent co-opting and inversion by largely nefarious anti-individual forces, would that perhaps be like a woman denouncing all men because of prior bad relationships, or a poor father figure, or because Stalin was a man?
Do you think that reason-slash-rational and mysticism-slash-irrational need and compete with each other?
Wouldn't reason without mysticism be like masturbating versus making love?
With reason alone, you might get a few thrills, but ultimately, wouldn't you die alone with your dick in your hand?
That's from Janna.
Uh, how you doing?
Good, how are you?
I'm well, thank you.
You know, if a man has a dick in his hand, he's never quite alone.
But I know what you mean.
I get the analogy.
You're with Dick.
So, do you want to break this out a little bit more to make sure we're starting on the same page?
Sure.
I mean, I just, there's, you know, even just like in listening to your last segment with Stephanie, it was still very
literal, in terms of, you know, perhaps advice that you would give in that regard, or, and, you know, sometimes, and, you know, and just even thinking about, let's just say, you know, this sort of anti-white movement, and I would say it's probably more individual, anti-individual, and that perhaps the white
Race has probably the strongest inclination towards individuality.
It's sort of at the leading edge at this time.
But I think sometimes for pattern recognition, the synthesis of philosophy and mysticism sort of turns knowledge into knowing, you know, and being able to not just
evaluate things intellectually but sometimes also to let them flow through you and obviously you don't want to sacrifice one for the other but then and know when each when to apply put your foot on either pedal you know.
Now this is interesting because and this is the challenge I have with people who are sort of pro mysticism is that each individual word I understand Even two or three of them together, I'm following.
But when I get a whole series of sentences, I don't have a lot of illumination afterwards than before.
So why don't we start with something just a little bit more basic to make sure I'm on the same wave.
Okay.
Hang on, hang on.
No, no, no.
Let me ask the question.
That's what I'm about to do.
Define mysticism for me, please.
I would say it's more of An experience rather than an explanation.
Okay, if it can't be encapsulated in language, a conversation becomes somewhat impossible.
Like if you're on this show and you want to do, I don't know, the way I communicate is through interpretive mime, then we can't really have a conversation because it can't see you.
So if it can't be encapsulated in language, I'm not really sure what we're going to be talking about.
Though I hadn't finished my sentence.
Okay, go ahead.
I would say it's the experience of direct communion with an objective reality, with an ultimate reality.
Wait, wait.
Objective or ultimate?
Because if it's objective, then we can describe it through language and it's not mystical, right?
Direct communion with objective reality would be sense data of the empirical universe.
That would be science, not mysticism.
I would say ultimate reality.
Okay, so ultimate reality.
So what does ultimate mean here?
It would be like the logos, like the original idea or intention and allowing of that to flow through you.
Like when we go, I have the advantage of being quite immersed in nature where I am geographically and kind of like living on the shire in a way, you know, and I understand, you know, there is that, that imminent feeling of something seeping into the whole system, really.
you know, contaminating element that is sort of overtaking something perhaps that had A pure intention initially, you know?
Okay, sorry.
This sort of word salad fortune cookie stuff, I don't really know what to make of it.
You're giving me a bunch of words but I'm sort of asking for a definition and I don't know how to make that more clear.
But what does it mean when you say mysticism?
You know, a flowing through experience of ultimate locus doesn't It doesn't clear anything up for me.
And maybe this is what you mean when you say it's directly experiential rather than something that can be encapsulated in language.
It is experiential.
And that's the thing.
And it's more of your intuitive communication with the world around you that transcends words.
And so there's a, you know, and as a writer… Okay, but we're talking.
How are you going to tell me something that transcends words?
We're using words the only way we have to communicate.
Well, I'm saying, you know, it can be… You know, sometimes we use the finger to point at the moon, but the words aren't the moon, you know, so it's leading rather.
And I would say it's, you know, has to do with immediate spiritual intuition of truths that transcend an ordinary understanding.
Okay, Jada, Jada, come on, come on.
How long have you been listening to the show for?
Like three months.
Okay, great.
Hang on, this is the part where I'm going to ask a question or two because, you know, my show and all.
So you're calling into a show that is empirical, philosophical, rational, objective, and so on, right?
And you know that I've said that it's very, very important to have definitions, right?
So this can't be a surprise to you that I'm going to ask you for definitions, and if you're just stringing a whole bunch of words together that aren't a definition, then I'm going to call you on that, right?
Fine.
Okay.
So is it my understanding that you obviously wanted to talk for a couple of weeks, but you don't have a definition of mysticism other than subjective experiences, right?
Right.
Which is not a definition.
You're talking about your feelings with regards to nature.
That's not an objective definition.
It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I wasn't offering that part as the objective definition.
I'm saying it's an experience of direct communion with an ultimate reality.
But that's meaningless.
Philosophically, what you're saying is you might as well be speaking some foreign language that neither of us understand.
Because ultimate reality is not a definition.
Right, because I don't know what the definition of, like putting the word ultimate in front of something doesn't explain anything.
Well, do you have no regard for anything divine?
Well, now we're going to have to define divine.
Ooh, say that three times fast.
But now we're going to have to, because I don't know what you mean by divine.
Do you mean a sense of the glory of nature and a sense of transcendence based on the beauty of the world around?
Yeah, absolutely.
Do you mean a guy with a beard sitting on a cloud?
Well, no, not really, right?
So, I don't know what you mean by divine because, you know, this tastes divine.
Yeah, I think, yes, things taste divine.
But now we'd have to move to the next definition, right?
Well, it's like a larger intention and will that animates everything.
Like, do you think we just popped out of the soil one day?
Wait a minute, animates everything?
Now aren't we in Star Wars territory?
I mean, are we talking about the Force?
What do you mean?
Sure, yeah.
We are.
I mean I think we all have a sense of it in some regard and I don't think that there would be so many people leaning towards that and having so many sort of sketchy people rushing to fill that gap that feels absent.
So I think that it is that desire for transcendence and communion is inherent in people at a certain point in their
evolution, you know, and the growth of their soul and the building of their character, you know, and when you start to peek beyond the veil and you start to see bigger patterns and you see that perhaps, you know, the objects themselves are just sort of a garment for patterns that have come into being from an energetic place that is far
Greater than we are, you know, as individuals, not to diminish the exercise and individuality.
I think that obviously it's super important.
It's why we're here.
So it's not an escape route or a reason to… Okay, okay.
No, because you understand.
Like, it's annoying.
I've got to tell you what you're doing is annoying because I'm telling you I don't understand and you keep using these word salads and what you keep doing, Jayna, is you keep firing more and more word salads at me without stopping to ask if I know what the hell you're talking about.
That's kind of rude.
I mean, I thought that mysticism was supposed to make you sensitive to the patterns of oneness in the universe and so on.
Do you not know that I keep asking you for definitions and clarity and you keep just handing me more and more word salads without ever stopping to ask whether or not I have any clue what you're talking about?
When I've already told you three times or four times, I don't know what you're talking about.
But you just keep talking and talking without asking me.
Am I present in the conversation to you at all?
Are my needs present to you or is it just your needs?
Like you just want to say this stuff and it doesn't matter whether I understand it.
It doesn't matter whether I comprehend what the hell you're talking about.
You just want to get on my show and you just want to say all of this stuff and it doesn't matter whether I understand it or not.
Where's the sensitivity that the spirituality is supposed to give you to the other person in the conversation?
Well, I'm sorry, that wasn't my... I thought I was just trying to clarify something for you.
But you... don't you need to stop and ask if I'm understanding what you're saying?
Like, you've heard me in the show a million times say, you know, this is my argument, does it make any sense to you?
Are you following this right?
I feel like you'd just be speaking to a candle here.
I don't know where I am in the conversation when I keep telling you I don't know what you're talking about and I need clear definitions and you just give me more syllables without ever asking if I know what you're talking about.
Do I need to be here?
Do you want to just have a speech and I'll move on to the next caller?
Because I feel like I'm not here and I feel like you've embedded yourself so much in this otherness that it's eclipsing actual human beings that you're theoretically trying to have a conversation with, if that makes any sense.
I don't know what to say. - Okay.
Good!
That's a step forward because before you did know what to say but I didn't have any idea what you were saying.
So, excellent!
I feel we're making progress.
So, you're talking sort of platonic forms.
You say the thing in itself or the thing behind the veil and so on, right?
And how do you know when you have achieved a comprehension of this otherness?
Is it a feeling?
Does it give you any thoughts that are reproducible in objective terms?
Or is it a purely subjective experience that is united with an ultimate reality in your mind?
It's how I make art.
You know, and you, you have You have ideas flow into you, and they're very visual, and I translate them into drawings and books.
Oh, is that your job?
Yeah.
Ah, okay.
Well, I mean, I have ideas and arguments and novels and poems and so on without that.
So, I mean, that may be your artistic process, but it's not Any definition of an objective autistic process?
Well, and then, and then I feel then, um, after I've have an experience like that, then you, you begin to refine it.
So it's sort of like receiving and like an output, if you will, you know, for like input output and you just sort of allow things to come into you when you're in a state of, of Purity of mind, I would suppose, like as best as I can achieve at this juncture in my life.
And then translating it and refining it.
And so then you apply intellect to it without a discrediting, but rather like a great appreciation of the mystical experience.
I have a feeling that if I don't interrupt you're just going to keep talking because you haven't listened to what I said earlier because maybe you're dealing with the ultimate Steph rather than Steph who's actually on the line.
How do you access these mystical experiences.
Do you not eat?
Do you eat too much?
Do you drink?
Do you use drugs?
Do you meditate?
I mean, how do you get access to this experience?
It just comes.
Like, if I'm driving, driving is a really good way to be in the zone, I guess.
Walking through the woods, I live right at the edge of the woods and Go walk through the forest a lot and sometimes, you know, um, just traveling, moving about.
I find there's a lot of receptivity when you sort of leave the house and get moving.
I'm sure you know, cause sometimes I can hear you comment on the fact that you're active and moving about and doing stuff.
Um, and, and things come in and then my, The job of my intellect, I would feel, would be to translate that into something valuable.
And so that would be insight, you know, versus sculpting or carving consciously.
Do you understand that?
Well, again, you're using a description of a subjective experience for you.
So have you ever used drugs in the past to attempt to induce this state of mind?
No, I don't.
I don't use drugs.
And I'm like, I like to have my wits about me.
Right, right.
Okay.
So do you feel that I lack creativity or inspiration as a result of being skeptical towards mysticism?
No, but sometimes there's just sort of dismissal of it.
Sure.
I mean, I think I have an extraordinarily fertile mind.
Some people would say that that's added to with manure, which is fine.
I understand the perspective.
Added with manure, it's part of the fertility, the fecundity.
I have a very sort of creative and fertile mind and the challenge for me is taking the creativity and fertility of my thoughts and arranging them in a way that is communicable and transferable to other people, right?
Exactly.
Right, so that to me is the challenge, right?
So like this morning, let me tell you about my morning.
So I was working a little bit late last night and then I was hoping to sleep in a little bit this morning, but someone called at 7 40 a.m.
this morning and like, oh, you got kids?
I figured you'd be up.
It's like, well, no, we're not.
Not an early morning family, exactly.
And I tried to get a little bit more sleep, but I couldn't.
My mind sort of started churning and I ended up recording two Two shows, two conversations this morning.
And it was sort of very fertile.
So for me, having the insight or having the idea, one was an analogy about an affair, trying to explain the Democrats relationship with Russia.
And anyway, so I had a lot of creativity this morning, as I generally do in the day.
And, you know, when I did my April Fool's video.
I guess.
Spoiler.
I just had the idea and wrote down a couple of thoughts and just went and recorded it.
It was one take.
Other stuff takes forever.
Even the one this morning, I had like eight or nine takes before I got it right.
But sometimes it just happens, right?
But the challenge for me is to translate a subjective inspiration into something which can transfer to other people.
And so far, the only thing you've transferred to me is a lot of syllables and confusion because I still don't know what you're talking about.
So maybe what you could do, since what I do is translate my subjective inspiration into an objective form of communication, philosophy, or analogy, or whatever you want to call it, and sometimes storytelling.
Maybe Jane, what you could do is you could tell me an insight that you could transfer to me that you got from a mystical experience, something that would be of benefit or value to me that you could communicate.
Not the experience itself, like I was walking through the woods and I had this sense of awe and wonder or whatever, but something that is transferable because you say you sort of write stories.
So you translate the insights of mysticism into language which is transferable to other people, so maybe you could help me understand the benefit of that, so you could transfer something to me.
Well, like yesterday, I was just driving home and had like a 30-minute drive, and I just had an insight about paradox and selfishness versus altruism, for instance.
Let's use that.
And that the sort of right-headed, true-hearted, selfish person is by nature altruistic, pretty much.
They get pleasure out of making the world a better place and being of service of some kind that enriches their community and stuff.
The selfish person is interested in enriching his community?
I think so.
I think somebody who is true-hearted and has a really good understanding of the world likes to create value, and that value That makes the world a better place and actually contributes.
It's like an individual, like if you are an individual, that's a really strong example to set for the people who come into contact with you.
And if you share stuff that is enlightening and helps create people who, as individuals,
You know, the philosophical infrastructure for that within their minds and stuff, that's just, they kind of fuse together and sort of, you know, so when you collapse these seemingly paradoxes rather than having them pitted against each other all the time, I think, you know, and being so binary or one or the other, and when we make them sort of both true and sort of collapse them into each other,
They become something, you know, unified and balanced in the middle.
So, sorry, what are the two things you're collapsing together that seem to be opposite?
The paradox, like altruism and selfishness.
And if you decide to be one or you decide to be the other, but without wisdom, they're their own pursuits, one pitted against the other.
But if there's some wisdom and, you know, insight and true heartedness to it, they actually, you know, it's like, I live, you know, I write books and they are, they're for kids, but I basically started doing them to console the frustration I felt as a child, you know?
Yeah, sure, there were cute books around, but they were largely inane.
And I was like, where's the stuff that's actually going to teach me just how to be in the world?
And so that's what I do.
And so, yeah, and I just noticed how when we follow our individual path and our impulse, it's quite, if it's true, if it's, you know, and feels not forced into and feels not forced into some other rut of, you know, or some other trajectory that was by virtue of conditioning, then it does contribute to the world.
And it is altruistic in its own way.
They become sort of the same thing.
That was just an idea.
Okay, so somebody who's selfish, let's say he's a A thief, right?
So he breaks into people's houses and he steals their stuff.
That would be a selfish action because it's pursuing your own material pleasures at the expense of other people.
How is that contributing to the community?
Selling them alarms?
Well, that's what I was saying.
Selfishness, when it's from a place of wisdom and true heartedness, ultimately when it's purified to that form, selfishness is actually altruistic.
I'm not saying that You know, a pedophile hiding in the bushes waiting to flash, you know, kids walking home from school, because that's how he gets his jollies, is serving the world.
I'm saying when we, you know, work on ourselves and we, you know, restore some balanced and sound architecture to our character, and we have a certain degree of wisdom that ultimately we notice those two things creeping towards each other.
And so those individualistic impulses, you know, when they are rooted in virtue they naturally become altruistic at the same time.
So when you say, and I just, this is the kind of stuff, like I don't know what the hell you're talking about, right?
So when you say, when you restore some balanced and sound architecture to your character, or when we restore some balanced and sound architecture to our character, you understand I don't know what that means and I don't know how to achieve that.
I don't know how to pursue that.
I don't know if I've succeeded in doing that or failed in doing that.
I don't know any objective definition.
I think philosophy helps.
Still talking.
I don't know any objective definition of that.
If you listen back to what you're saying, Jaina, again, each word, yeah, I understand what each word, but to put them all together, I have no idea what you're talking about.
In terms of like, I asked you to transfer something to me, and you said, well, there's behaviors that are traditionally good, I assume something like altruism, and I'm paraphrasing, there are behaviors that are traditionally bad, like selfishness.
But if you're selfish in a virtuous way, it's virtuous.
But that's, again, this doesn't add anything.
I mean, okay, I'm selfish in a virtuous way.
The question is, what is virtue?
What is selfishness?
What is altruism?
No definitions are given.
Just words are arranged in a seemingly pleasant manner that convey no actual objective or actionable meaning.
How do I restore some balance and sound architecture to my character?
What does that mean?
I think you do that through philosophy.
That's not, you're just using more words.
How do I actually do that?
This is a word show.
Right, but the words have to have some meaning.
Saying you do it through philosophy doesn't answer anything, because if I say, okay, this morning I'm going to get up and do philosophy, what does that mean?
How do I know if I've done it?
How do I know if I've succeeded or failed?
Well, we build it through philosophy, through thinking.
Right thinking is just another way of saying philosophy.
I'm sorry to keep interrupting, but you see you're just making positive sounding noises with your breathing hole.
You're not actually telling me what I need to do that's actionable, that's comprehensible.
It's just these are positive adjectives that are masquerading as self-knowledge.
What do I do to restore some balance and sound architecture to my character?
You live by your principles.
That's another way of saying philosophy.
What are the principles?
How do I know if I've lived by them?
How are they objectively validated?
You create value.
If you create something for the world, you contribute.
Again, more adjectives that sound positive, but I still don't know.
What do I contribute to the world?
How do I know if it's positive?
What if other people are upset by a truth that I brought to bear?
How do I know whether it's validated?
How do I know whether I've succeeded or failed?
You see, you just keep piling positive adjectives off and think you're communicating something.
Because, you know, I assume you're trying to make a case for mysticism to somebody, I guess you describe me, would describe me as a rationalist I assume you're trying to make a case for mysticism to somebody, I Yeah, I'm not making a case for it in the sense of being superior.
No, necessary.
As necessary and not throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Again, that's just another analogy which has no content to it.
I still don't know what you're trying to add to my human experience other than a bunch of fairly random positive adjectives.
You're saying, Steph, well if you had the ying to the yang, if you had this to that, you wouldn't die alone with a dick in your hand.
Okay, well let's assume that I don't want to die alone with a dick in my hand.
What do I do?
And I don't know, like, chewing a bunch of positive adjectives doesn't seem to be relieving the headache of what is missing from my life.
And maybe you have something very positive to offer and, you know, maybe we can talk again.
But right now, if you're telling me I'm missing something but you're not able to define what it is that I'm missing and you're not able to give me anything actionable in order to pursue... I'm not telling you anything.
Then I'm going to move on to the next caller then because if you're not telling me anything, which I actually think is a very accurate description, then I don't want to waste the listener's time with someone who doesn't have anything to communicate.
So thanks for calling in.
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