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July 13, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:41:44

MGTOW: Not All Women Are Like That!

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	For a long time, I've always wanted a legacy.
	Children of my own to raise and teach values.
	I know that if my life were to end not having left a legacy, I would have regret.
	I'm 32, and conflicted between MGTOW philosophy, that's Men Going Their Own Way philosophy, and the risky path of marriage slash family.
	I don't know if spelling out the letters is good.
	Men Going Their Own Way!
	I saw a guy downtown doing just that!
	He wasn't walking backwards, neither did he take to the sewers!
	Neither was he using Spider-Man rope!
	Anyway, go on.
	So you want to go a little bit more into that, just so people who don't know?
	Let me finish it.
	Let me finish the question for him.
	He said, uh, I have even considered surrogacy and being a single father.
	I want kids, but I don't want a wife.
	How can I move past this, and what are your thoughts on MGTOW philosophy?
	All right.
	Kind of bundling a little in there, my friend.
	Yeah, a little bit.
	A little bit.
	Last guy got away with it, so why not you?
	Well, first of all, let me ask you a question.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	How do you live in the most feminist city in the world outside of Sweden?
	Toronto.
	Cross-legged, I would assume, right?
	Yeah, I was in Toronto.
	No, I mean, you know, I don't, I mean, there are people who do the samba in the city.
	That doesn't mean I do the samba, right?
	I mean, there are, you know, I just, I don't hang with those people, right?
	The city be damned, right?
	It's my circle that can't.
	It just has a reputation, at least from what I see on the internet, like, you know, the protesting of Warren Farrell and stuff like that.
	Big Red, it's from there, that kind of thing.
	Right, right.
	Yeah.
	No, it's, you know, I mean, they just do their nutty stuff, and I do my stuff that I'm sure they think is nutty, too.
	So, just, you know, they have a few more bomb threats than I do, so.
	Another thing, I'm glad that Freedom Aid and Radio is a male-safe space, or a Sasha's space, as you could say.
	Yeah, I'm saying that jokingly.
	I was at a meet-up, and not less than three of the guys there were like, wow, there's no women here.
	And, yeah, so that was kind of...
	It's like they've never seen The Crying Game, you know, just jump to assumptions.
	Anyway.
	Never seen that movie, actually.
	Get ready to scream.
	Let me just give you a clue.
	Boy George sings the title song.
	But anyway, go on with your question.
	So first, like, sorry, just before we get to that, I don't think single dads are a huge step up, if any, from single moms.
	Right.
	And, you know, in the name of, I think, reasonable gender equality, I think saying, you know, well, what if I just become a single dad?
	I don't think that's good for kids either.
	So to me, it's kind of, you know, find a woman that you can have a kid with.
	And that's the best.
	I don't know if there's a plan B called that I think is good for kids.
	And I don't know, because I mean, I've mostly studied the single mom stuff, because it's like 98% of single parents are single moms.
	And, you know, again, just to be clear, this doesn't mean being, like, widowed or something.
	They're called widows.
	Single moms are women who choose to be a single because the husband is still alive or the father.
	They either get divorced or whatever.
	They don't single moms, like, in the way that people think.
	But so I don't, you know, I don't think it's a good idea to become a parent if you're a single parent, whether you're a man or a woman.
	But, you know, that's probably not going to mean much to you.
	But that's sort of the reality of my thoughts on the matter.
	I don't think that this magical single parent has penis, therefore single parent statistics don't apply.
	It's just that there's not that much study because very few men are single parents by choice, at least compared to women.
	So, yeah, so my suggestion would be I don't think surrogacy is a great idea because I think that you're just going to be a parent who has no resources for the kid, right?
	I mean, unless you're like independently wealthy and can stay home, you know, God, You know, I mean, as a dad, I mean, it's crazy, crazy amounts of time that you need to spend as a parent with your kid.
	So, if you don't have somebody else, the quality of the kid's parenting is absolutely and completely going to decline.
	There's just almost no way around that.
	So, I don't think... I wouldn't put... I think a plan B might weaken your sort of resolve to You know, I'm about to inherit a million dollars.
	I'm not going to go look for work, right?
	So if you have something called surrogacy in the back of your pocket, I think it may cut back your capacity or drive to look for a suitable woman if you want kids.
	But I think, you know, or, you know, if you are willing to swing both ways, you know, get a boyfriend.
	I don't know.
	But I think kids need two parents.
	And I know that some of the big town guys are like, well, you know, I want to have kids.
	But, you know, then God, you know, just keep coming and find a woman who's great.
	You know, they're out there.
	Let me interject there.
	You know, you found your unicorn.
	It's great.
	You talk the world over, because I'm very sure you love her.
	But you acknowledge that, you know, you say, No Walt, but there's the other side of things, the Aspa Walt.
	What?
	A statistically significant percentage of women are like that.
	Would be a little bit more accurate.
	Are like what?
	Oh, like that.
	Well, let's just – if you want to go in more depth, we can, but let's just say crazy, irrational, selfish, domineer.
	I don't know.
	Again, I wouldn't say that they're irrational.
	Okay.
	We won't go that far.
	But through rational observation, listening to you, engaging in red pill ideology, which – the reason I'm talking to you is because I think you're one of the few people, public voices, that are actually able to understand a lot of the concepts that are actually able to understand a lot of the concepts and have actually put them into your So that's why I'm bringing this to you.
	I mean, I've come to the point where The risk, just like the last caller, which I'm glad that he actually went first to bring it up, you know, he thought, yeah, there were red flags to be acknowledged, but he thought he was making the right decision.
	But at the end, now he's got to deal with it.
	No, no, no, no.
	He said that very clearly.
	He wasn't thinking.
	Red flags all over the place.
	And the woman's dad said, don't marry her.
	She's selfish.
	She's born on the coldest day of the year.
	He was not thinking.
	Right.
	No, that's an important distinction, because my point is, as I said, if you're looking for a needle in a haystack, know the difference between a needle and a hay.
	And that's why I keep saying, there's very efficient ways to find out if someone you're living with is quality or not.
	See, the thing is, I've lost the desire to even look at this point.
	So, that's why I'm considering the whole MGTOW life style.
	And it comes from a lot of rational thinking about, well, for one, I don't want to put myself at risk of losing my children if I have them.
	And another, I don't want to have especially the state having that much more power over me, or rather, a woman having that much more power over me.
	By the state.
	And they're completely entitled to do that in today's society.
	So, yeah, I could find that unicorn.
	Yeah, I could not think and, you know, make a bad decision.
	I mean, that's what men have been known to do.
	But that's just a nightmare for me.
	And even if it's a small risk, I mean, it's a huge, huge downfall if that were to happen.
	And I just don't want to put myself at that kind of risk.
	No, and look, I hugely appreciate that, and I genuinely respect you for that kind of forward thinking.
	So, I know that we're sort of marching into red pill territory, so do you mind if we just sort of circle back and explain some of what you're talking about to people who are less familiar?
	Sure.
	What topic?
	Let me ask you that.
	Would you even call it a philosophy, or is it more of an ideology?
	Because it does have certain principles, but they're not, like, moral, I guess you could say.
	Yeah, perspective.
	I mean, I think that there's empiricism in it, which is, you know, men look around and see the smoking craters of their own fathers' lives.
	They look around and see the smoking craters of their friends' and their brothers' lives.
	You sound like a young guy, right?
	So, you're second generation after feminism, right?
	Are you in your twenties?
	Thirty-two.
	Thirty-two, okay.
	So, you were born in, like, what?
	Eighty-two?
	Two, yeah.
	Eighty-two, right.
	Okay, so, I was first generation feminism victim, which is the massive destruction of the family that occurred.
	In the late 60s and in the 70s where divorces went up like 300% and you've got these single mom welfare state farms and so on.
	And this came about to a large degree because of feminism, but everyone focuses on the ideology and nobody focuses on the practical reality of why the hell it happened, which was that the welfare state came in.
	And when the welfare state came in, two things happened.
	A, women got a bunch of government jobs and women are much more likely to work for the government than they are to work for the private sector.
	And so they got job security.
	They got, you know, lots of benefits and so on.
	And for those who didn't have those jobs, there was the welfare state.
	So with the growth of the welfare state and the growth of the government gets a bunch of government jobs, which a lot of go to women and all that.
	So the first wave was like, holy crap, you know, I saw what happened to my dad.
	I mean, my parents divorced.
	I was born in 66 and I don't think I was six months old or eight months old.
	So they divorced in 67, I think.
	And it was brutal.
	And I mean, it kept being brutal.
	I don't want to get into any particular details because it's a long and involved story, but it kept being brutal for a very, very long time.
	Yeah, I mean, I've listened to your videos in depth for the past year or so.
	I mean, read the book about Alec Baldwin's divorce from Kim Basinger.
	Alec Baldwin says this about divorce, and I'm paraphrasing, but he says, divorce is like being chained to a truck and dragged along a dirt road.
	It goes on as long as they want it to go on, and it only stops when they run out of gas.
	Yeah, so why, I mean, why would men subject themselves to this?
	I mean, kids, obviously, but rationally to me it just seems like, yeah, you could find true love.
	I used to believe that.
	I used to have that fairy tale fantasy that I was going to grow up and find somebody that was going to be perfect for me and I was going to be in love and stay with them and have a kid and family and all that kind of stuff.
	But the more, like you said, train wrecks.
	You see in friends and family and things like that, especially in my own family, I'm completely turned off by the concept.
	I've always, as a guy, been like, oh, I'm never going to get married.
	But as I've gotten more thinking about it more and more, it just doesn't make sense.
	Look, the risk-rewards, if you're not certain of the woman's virtue, the risk-rewards are, to put it mildly, not in a man's favor.
	and I would argue psychologically suicidal.
	Because if the woman turns on you, you are completely fucked.
	Like, she has a grenade tied to your nuts.
	And that's not even a great metaphor, because at least with a grenade, it's over.
	Right?
	So, if the woman turns on you, for whatever reason, and you have kids, particularly if you've been any kind of provider, and certainly, like I say, someone's got to be home, at least that's my argument, And, you know, ideally it's the woman because she's got the feeding bags.
	And so if you've been a provider and the woman decides to leave you and decides to go nuclear on your ass, your life is completely fucked for an indefinite amount of time.
	And, you know, suicidality, stress, ailments, and so on all go through the roof.
	Your kids could be ripped from you, you could be subject to false allegations, because the lawyers, I mean, the lawyers are just interested in making money, fundamentally.
	That's their incentive.
	It's not like there aren't any good lawyers, but, you know, it's like there are some nice cops and good bureaucrats, but the system itself is designed in a completely different way.
	And the amount of power a woman has, through the government, to harm a man, as you say, is truly staggering.
	And until, you know, you've seen How it works, particularly America, and what happens.
	It sounds like a nightmare horror movie.
	And so, yeah, I mean, you can watch Divorce Corps, C-O-R-P, for more on this.
	And you can certainly read Alec Baldwin's got a very interesting book, a terrifying book about his divorce from Kim Basinger.
	And you're helpless.
	I mean, this is a guy, he's rich, he's famous, he's highly successful.
	And I mean, his life was just destroyed for years.
	William Hurt, a fine actor, also had one of these divorces that just was brutal and endless and vile.
	And the galt's gulch is bachelorhood, right?
	I mean, this is what going galt really means, is that it's not to do with the economy, it's to do with women.
	Right.
	I mean, that's one of the things in terms of, you know, anarchy is putting myself... I can't change the world, but I can put myself in a position to minimize my tax burden into the state or to a woman, to be their utility.
	That's basically what MGTOW philosophy means to me, is removing yourself from being that provider male and just doing what you want to do for self-actualization.
	That's what it means to me.
	That to me is very appealing, but it leaves me without The kids, the family, the legacy.
	I want to teach values to my kids and raise them, be in their lives and that sort of thing, and be parents that I didn't have to them.
	All those things that some people want.
	If you do have kids through a surrogacy or something like that, if you have a son, then You're basically going to be teaching him to not get married, I would assume, right?
	Assuming nothing changes.
	And look, nothing's going to change.
	I mean, I think in Florida, if I remember rightly, it's off the top of my head, but in Florida sometime back, they tried to get a law passed, which basically just said, look, custody is just split.
	Custody is just split.
	Unless there's like crazy stuff going on in the household, 50-50, that's it.
	And feminist organizations and now, they went insane.
	Because the whole child support alimony gravy train was threatened.
	And so, look, things aren't going to change anytime soon when it comes to the divorce thing.
	I know that some MGTOWs are like, well, you know, we're going to, you know, we're going to keep not getting engaged with women until such time as women begin to put pressure on the political system and so on.
	I, you know, don't hold your breath, right?
	I think it's multi-generational change.
	So, If you were gonna raise a boy, are you gonna teach him to not date women?
	Is that right?
	No, I still date.
	It's just that...
	I haven't really come to the final conclusion of that.
	That's what I want to talk to you about and get your take on it and that sort of thing.
	I'm at that crossroads where I need to make a decision because if, say, I want to have grandkids or I want to spend time with them, for instance, if they wait as long as I did, there's a good chance that you get two or three years.
	In your 80s or whatever.
	So I want to make that decision.
	I'm talking to the wrong guy about that, but yeah.
	I know what you mean.
	But yeah, I want to make a timely decision.
	I know that you had your daughter when you were – how old was it?
	43.
	Okay.
	So men can wait much longer than women can.
	So I mean I'm comfortable with that.
	The grandkids thing is an issue, right?
	I certainly think about that, you know?
	Yeah, so... It's not like we're in some neighborhoods in America, the average age of a grandmother is 32.
	That sure ain't our situation.
	Right.
	And, you know, one of the hold-ups that I have is I just don't trust women at all.
	And, you know, I just can't imagine putting myself in a position where they would have, you know, that kind of power over me.
	It's just, like I said, it's a nightmare.
	Oh no, it is.
	Absolutely.
	If you end up with some sort of borderline or crazy woman combined with the court system and the police, I mean, oh yeah, no, you are literally going to be in hell for an indefinite amount of time.
	And nothing, you know, of course, I can imagine nothing rips either parent's heart more than not having access to kids.
	And it's just unbelievable.
	And there is something that I've sort of seen and experienced, and women, I've talked about this before, like women have the capacity to hold on to anger in a way that men generally don't.
	And I'm not sure exactly why that is, but it certainly does seem to be the case.
	Right?
	So, and I think, I think it has something to do with male roughhousing.
	Like, so when I was a kid, you know, I'd get into roughhousing with other kids, other boys generally, I mean, roughhousing with girls often.
	So you get into roughhousing, or you play fight or whatever, and then when it was over, what did you do?
	Your friends, if you're a guy.
	You pour heart and soul into competitive sports.
	You want to win at tennis, you want to win at soccer, you want to win.
	If you lose and you're a dick, then you're a bad loser, and that's negative, right?
	So one of the things that men learn is you can be enemies in the moment, but that doesn't mean that you have to be enemies forever.
	Not enemies, you can be competitors in the moment, but that doesn't mean that you have to... your interest can be opposing in the moment, but that doesn't mean you have to be enemies afterwards.
	And I think that men, in the way that we grow up, we learn how to be fierce and then still be friends.
	Does that make... was that your experience or is that more particular to me?
	Oh yeah, I mean I've studied masculinity in depth to figure out You know, my own manhood, and that's absolutely, I agree with that.
	Men and women are fundamentally different in a lot of ways, and that's one particular one.
	And this grudge-holding stuff, to me, is really fundamental, and I don't know whether it's got something to do with biology or genetics or brain or whatever it is, but, you know, when women don't seem to have this, our interests are opposed, but we can still be friends.
	And I don't sort of mean fundamental moral interests, you know, sort of the against me argument or whatever, but But women seem like when women turn, they don't seem to turn back.
	Oh yeah, when a woman has lost love for you, you don't exist.
	Well, you do exist.
	Well, if there's something she can get out of you, yes.
	Yeah, I mean if you're a resource bomb that she can set off.
	And this is an old saying, right?
	Hell itself hath no fury like a woman scorned.
	Like a woman whose interests have been negated or a woman who feels hard done by hell hath no fury.
	In other words, it's actually worse than demonic.
	It's worse than the devil itself.
	And I think there's some truth in that.
	And it's certainly not true for all women.
	But I have been remarkably surprised at the degree to which when I was younger, if a relationship didn't work out, I was always really kind of surprised at the degree to which I simply became an un-person.
	And I was also quite surprised at the degree to which women could move on.
	And that seems to be, I think men have more, in my experience, again, it's not scientific, men have more difficulty moving on.
	I think they get more attached.
	I think women are, you know, this hypergamy thing, right?
	That women are constantly looking for opportunities for more resources and therefore you don't get that attached.
	If you're, you know, it's like, it's like house flipping, you know, you don't, you know, you decorate it only to upgrade, right?
	Right.
	So, it is a tough bind.
	Look, am I going to tell you don't have kids?
	I mean, I don't have any power to tell you that.
	I don't have any authority and I don't even know if that's what I think.
	Ideally, it would be great to have a partner.
	Is it worse if you don't have a partner but you're a really good person?
	Well, you, if you fit that standard, and it sounds to me like you do, you're a thoughtful, intelligent, forward-thinking, careful guy.
	I got to think there are about 98% of hetero parents on the planet who would not be as concerned and thoughtful as you, as a single parent, if that makes sense.
	Right.
	It's the thoughtfulness rather than the two-parent thing I think that means the most in my opinion, right?
	So if you can find a way to get enough resources to at least be really present in the kid's life for the first couple of years, you'll do a lot more good than a lot of hetero parents who are bad parents and spankers and drop their kids at daycare at the age of seven you'll do a lot more good than a lot of hetero parents who are bad parents Right.
	Well, I mean I hear you talk about your experiences and finding that unicorn, and there's that little small bit of blue pill, which is opposed to red pill, belief in me left that still wants to find that person to have that partnership with.
	I can't quite kill it, as they would say.
	It's not impossible.
	She's not a unicorn.
	She's a real human being.
	We're never getting divorced.
	We are never going to fall out of love with each other.
	And people like, you know, oh yeah, you tell me.
	And it's like, oh, come on, you know, people always been telling me this my whole life.
	Oh, you wait until you find out.
	There's like, no, no, no, this bullshit.
	Now I'm 48 years old.
	I can just tell people like that to fuck off.
	You're idiots.
	You're just fear mongers.
	Get lost.
	We're never getting divorced.
	I'm not cursing myself.
	It's not going to happen next year.
	It's not going to happen 10 years from now.
	We are going to fucking die together.
	That's awesome.
	I'm glad you can say that.
	So what I mean is that it's possible, and so you can't kill it because it's a possibility.
	I think I'm going to stand in my own way in that place, though.
	What do you mean?
	Oh, you mean you want to kill it, even though it's a possibility?
	No, no, no, no, no, no.
	I mean, I think I'm standing in my own way of that, in a distrust of women.
	I kind of would like to delve into one of your favorite topics to talk about and see what you think about it, like where I'm coming from for my childhood.
	Okay, and I want to do that, but just before we do that, if you don't mind, and you can abandon this if you want, but if you don't trust women, are you only dating them for sex?
	Right now, yes.
	And that's upfront, you're like, I don't like women, I don't trust women, but... I don't walk up and say, hey, what's up?
	No, no, but I mean, you don't get into relationships without telling the woman that you're not even remotely interested in a long-term relationship.
	In fact, it would go counter to your whole approach to life, but you like sex.
	I don't say that literally, because that would be counterproductive.
	So, hang on, hang on.
	So, aren't you then manipulating?
	No, because I don't give any inclinations that this is going to go to marriage or have kids.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	Come on, come on, man.
	Don't give me the I'm not lying directly, right?
	Because if you have a problem with women being manipulative and usurous, Using men for resources, by falsifying their intentions or by not being completely direct, how are you not... how is this gun not going off in your face?
	If the topic comes up, I address it.
	If they try to push for marriage, I tell them, nope, that's not something I'm interested in.
	And that has definitely... No, no, dude, dude, dude, come on, come on, come on, come on.
	Do you really think that that's as honest as you should be?
	If the topic comes up.
	Well, at what point should I be bringing it up then?
	Well, I mean, if you want to, I mean, be honest, right?
	You want women to be honest, right?
	If you're honest, you say, listen, I want to go on a date.
	I have no interest in marriage or any kind of long-term relationship.
	We're never going to live together.
	I don't really trust women, but I do like to have sex.
	Well, let me back up a little bit then.
	In the past, I lived in that fantasy world where I would speak to my beliefs about marriage and things like that, and that would actually serve as a turn-off.
	Sorry, what would serve as a turn-off?
	If you said, I just want to use you for sex even though I don't like you?
	No, no, no.
	Let's go back a little bit, okay?
	In my 20s, I was living the, I want to have a family, I want to have a career, I want to be a good provider, I want to do all this stuff that I didn't know could be risky.
	And I would find myself getting very attached to the women, telling them that I love them and things such as that.
	And that would actually push them away.
	And so I just stopped bringing it up.
	What I find is that we can go out and have fun.
	The topic of marriage doesn't come up for weeks and months.
	I'm not going to bring it to the table because it's never been a positive thing to bring up in a conversation in my life.
	So you're getting what you want by omitting a crucial fact from women?
	If they say that what they're wanting is a marriage, then it pretty much ends.
	I'm not stringing along saying, oh yeah, I'm gonna marry you, we'll give you a ring.
	No.
	No, I get that.
	I get that.
	I get that.
	Listen, if you were the woman, would you like to know that ahead of time?
	Depends on the woman.
	If you were a woman, would you like to be told the truth before getting involved?
	Again, it depends on the woman.
	No, no, let me put it to you this way.
	I'm selling you a car.
	I know that the transmission is fucked, right?
	Let me finish, let me finish, let me finish.
	I know the transmission is fucked, right?
	And I sell you the car, you drive it, and a couple of weeks later the transmission gives out, right?
	And you say to me, what's up with this?
	I said, oh yeah, I know the transmission was fucked.
	And you say, well why didn't you tell me that?
	I said, well you didn't ask.
	You didn't bring it up.
	I had this piece of information, you didn't.
	You didn't ask me about the transmission in particular.
	If you had asked me, I would have told you.
	Now, am I being an honest guy?
	No, because they came to you wanting a full working car, but the women that I'm dating, perhaps they don't want a husband.
	How old are the women that you're dating?
	Anywhere from their 20s up until their 40s.
	Alright, so you're dating women at the tail end of their reproductive cycle.
	Sometimes.
	Okay.
	Well, no, I mean, late 20s, they're already starting, fertility is already starting to decline, and any woman with any brains in her late 20s has got to be thinking about kids if she wants them, and how to cap it, right?
	Right.
	I agree with that.
	Okay, so you're dating, you're not dating like 19-year-olds, right?
	You're not like Paul Walker's reincarnated creepy ghost, right?
	So, you are dating women at the tail end of their reproductive cycle, Well, it depends on the woman.
	I recently was dating a woman that I thought was a virgin.
	I didn't say I had no intention.
	I said I was at a crossroads because I'm having trouble deciding, okay, is it worth the risk to get married?
	I still have that fantasy in my head.
	Okay, give me on that.
	But all the logic and all the rationalization... Hang on, hang on.
	I'm just getting not straight stories here.
	And I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just genuinely confused.
	Okay, what can I do to help you?
	You date for sex.
	I thought you said you have no intention of marrying these women and if marriage comes up, it's over.
	No, earlier I said I have that fantasy.
	I've had it all my life, but as I've gotten older and had experiences and given a lot of critical thought to the risk associated with that, I've become very adverse to it.
	At this point, I'm at a crossroads.
	Do I go the MGTOW lifestyle or do I still try to keep looking for that unicorn?
	Okay, but you said if it comes up weeks or months later, so you're saying it takes you weeks or months to find out if a woman is someone you really want to spend a lot of time with, or maybe even marry?
	Absolutely.
	I'd hope you spend a lot of due diligence time.
	Okay, now if I could speed that process up for you, would that change the equation?
	How so?
	Well, if you say that you're looking for a particular kind of woman, and right now it takes you weeks or months to find out if she's that kind of woman, if I could speed that process up for you, wouldn't that make it more efficient and up your chances of finding what you call the unicorn?
	Oh yeah.
	So, relentless honesty is what happens.
	If you want to find a woman that you want to marry, then you want to find a woman who is interested, enthusiastic about and accepts who you are, right?
	If you hide who you are, That's like flying a plane blindfolded.
	You can't see the instruments.
	You can't see the ground.
	So you're hiding who you are from women and then saying, well, I'm having trouble finding a woman to really connect with.
	So on your first date, the speech could go something like this.
	I find you attractive.
	I really do.
	I think you, you know, you're smart, you're funny, you're engaging, you're whatever, right?
	But let me tell you, I'm going to tell you in all seriousness, I'm 32.
	I'm not a kid anymore.
	I'm not a teenager.
	And my penis is not my plaything.
	So, I really want to have kids.
	I actually really want to get married, but I'm terrified.
	This is what I've seen, this is what I've seen, this is what I've seen.
	What's your experience and what are your thoughts about, you know, the pitfalls and perils and possibilities of modern marriage?
	I mean, 50% of the men didn't divorce.
	70% plus of those divorces are initiated by women.
	Divorce costs minimum $20,000.
	False accusations run rampant.
	It's, you know, from a male perspective, this is terrifying stuff.
	But I really want to have a kid.
	And I also don't want to have a kid alone.
	I want to have a kid with a woman.
	You know?
	What are your thoughts?
	What's your experience been?
	What's your approach?
	Can you imagine having that kind of conversation with a woman?
	Not on her having a second date.
	Good!
	Perfect!
	I have just saved you weeks and months.
	Look at that!
	How efficient can you be?
	You're welcome.
	I have just basically put you back to about the age of 24 when it comes to dating.
	Because now you don't have to waste weeks and months trying to find out if the woman is this, that, or the other.
	You're honest and forthright upfront.
	First date we go on.
	What does my wife say?
	I'm not interested in a player.
	I'm interested in getting married and having kids.
	I'm not saying that you have to do this tomorrow, but that's what I'm interested in.
	What are your thoughts?
	So she said that to you?
	Yeah.
	Respect.
	Respect.
	Be who you are.
	Be honest.
	Don't complain about women being manipulative and then be dishonest with women.
	Be honest.
	Be upfront.
	Do you not think that women are afraid of divorce?
	Women aren't all these sort of vampiric monsters just looking to suck men dry.
	Most women, I'm not saying most women, a lot of women are pretty damn happy if a marriage works out.
	They don't wake up saying, I want to get divorced.
	They don't wake up saying, I sure can't wait to get into an ugly battle with my husband using lawyers.
	I mean, yeah, they're crazy women, crazy men too, right?
	But if you want to be efficient, my friend, if you want to find a woman quickly, be as honest with her as you are with me.
	Why not?
	If you don't get a second date out of that, guess what?
	I just saved you months of your life.
	And you get to be a grandfather.
	Because you keep moving and you keep moving.
	And when you get that woman who says to you, I am incredibly refreshed by what you just said.
	That is the most honest thing I've ever heard on a first date.
	I'm intrigued.
	You have just opened your heart to me.
	You've been direct.
	You've been honest.
	And I'm getting a sense of how a relationship with you could be like.
	Right now, you're just an asshole hiding a bad transmission when it comes to women.
	And because you are manipulating and because you are withholding and because you are controlling the other person by falsifying who you are, you are not attracting quality women.
	Any woman with any insight is going to look at you and say, this son of a bitch is hiding something.
	And I don't even know what it is, and frankly I don't even care to know.
	Move on.
	But if you are honest, if you want to lasso the unicorn, real-time relationships, baby!
	Be honest.
	Be open, be direct.
	Say what's on your mind, say what's in your heart.
	And if you're rejected for that, at least you're rejected for who you are.
	There's nothing worse than being rejected for who you're not.
	You know, like if you If you pretend that you made a painting that you didn't, and that gets rejected, that's even worse.
	At least be rejected for the paintings you've made.
	So my question is, this is obvious when I'm saying it to you, right?
	I'm not saying you agree with it all, but at least the perspective is obvious, right?
	No, actually, you're spot on.
	Okay, so why has this not even crossed your mind?
	And I don't mean this accusatory, because you wanted to talk about your childhood and all, right?
	Which I think is fine.
	I think it's useful.
	But the idea of being direct and honest with a woman.
	You know, like, I don't know if you listen to Sandman?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so Sandman talks about these, what, two multi-year relationships, right?
	That he was in.
	Where the women were incredibly lazy, self-centered, uncurious about who he was.
	And it's like, dude, Years?
	Are you kidding me?
	We've all been there.
	I mean, I shouldn't say we've all been there.
	I've certainly been there.
	I mean, I get that.
	I was just talking about this earlier.
	But if you say, well, I've got to be in this thing for years before I find out whether the other person is honest or not, or authentic or not, or true or not, well then of course it's disastrous.
	It's like saying, well, I don't know if I like the army, so I'll sign up for 10 years.
	Ooh, okay.
	I think not, right?
	If I don't like it, I'm in for 10 years, right?
	But if you have a way of genuinely connecting with someone, or not, first date.
	You don't even have to go on a date.
	First conversation.
	You know, romance only is supposed to be mysterious because people want to get away with stuff.
	Like the smoke bomb.
	Because you want to camouflage, you want to get away with something.
	True romance, true love.
	Well, this is what I want and this is what I'm terrified of.
	My wife said to me, I don't want a player.
	I'm interested in marriage and kids.
	And I said, I don't know.
	I'm not opposed to marriage and kids.
	But my parents had a horrible divorce.
	And most of my friends' parents had horrible divorces.
	Now I have seen one or two families that I thought were good.
	So I'm not saying it's impossible.
	I'm skeptical.
	She's like, yeah, we can work with that.
	Right?
	We keep talking about it, right?
	So you've got this idea that you can find love by hiding yourself.
	And you know, when I put it that way, it makes no sense, right?
	No, actually, you make a lot of sense.
	So what happens, and what is so hard for you from your childhood?
	And look, man, I sympathize.
	You understand, I'm not coming from some, well, I've never lied, and I can't imagine why you... I get it.
	I mean, I was punished for honesty by women as a child.
	Same.
	Right?
	I mean, I was honest with my mom.
	Mom, I don't want to talk about your dating life.
	You ungrateful little, you know, I work and I like, okay, fuck, okay, so don't be honest with women.
	Got a female teacher.
	I'm bored.
	Whap!
	Right?
	Ruler to the knuckle.
	Yeah?
	I mean, how much, how much capacity did you have for directness and honesty in your young life with women?
	None.
	It's all these jokes that men make, you know?
	This is, does this dress make me look fat?
	Have I gained weight?
	And men are like, oh, I don't know.
	All these comedians make these stupid jokes.
	And these are stupid jokes about this stuff, right?
	Like, how do you tell the truth to a woman without getting in trouble?
	You can't.
	It's a trap, right?
	But don't let narcissistic, abusive women cut you off from the capacity to connect with a good woman.
	That's letting the bad chicks win, right?
	Yeah, I agree.
	But that's where it comes from.
	Okay, so what's your history with honesty in women?
	Well, first of all, you can give anything you want to me straight.
	I'm not going to get offended or anything by it.
	That's why I want to talk to you.
	Because you're straight.
	You're direct.
	I appreciate that.
	I respect that.
	I'm straight, but I did go to theater school.
	Go ahead.
	And I take responsibility for my actions.
	So when you're critical of things you read into what I say, no, I'll take that criticism.
	I'll own up to it.
	That's part of what I'm trying to get to.
	I'm trying to get to the root of things so I can understand why am I doing these things?
	Why do I feel like this is the way I'm supposed to conduct myself?
	You understand?
	You know, I still wear a mask to my family now.
	Everyone in my family does.
	We still have to.
	I think in one of your podcasts or something you said, you know, was it ask somebody how much they know about you to know how much they love you?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I could pick, you know, one of my friends.
	Like if I were to, you know, have some kind of ceremony or, you know, funeral or something good, Uh, my mom would be the last person that could speak to me.
	She doesn't know anything about me and she calls me every day.
	Um, and I really, I, I don't, I, she's never been a real positive thing in my life, I guess you could say.
	And, uh, having to put up that mask with her all my life is probably why I do it now.
	What's the price of not wearing the mask?
	Well, there's really no price because it's just... Oh, no, no, no!
	Come on!
	Let me explain, let me explain.
	There's no price because if I drop the mask... It's a hobby!
	No, if I drop the mask and try to have a conversation, I'm ignored.
	No, no, no, come on.
	I'm a square peg.
	Come on.
	What happens if you tell your mom, like when you were a kid, right?
	So what happens if you say to your mom, I'm not interested in what you're saying.
	I find this conversation boring.
	How come you never ask about me?
	The things that troubled you when you were a kid.
	What do you mean?
	What happened if you were to say something like that when you were a kid to your mom?
	I don't feel like you even know me.
	You never ask me any questions about myself.
	You don't know my favorite bands or my favorite songs or my favorite books.
	How come you never ask me about myself?
	It feels lonely.
	You know, only later, like in very recent times, have I asked her, like, what do you really know about me?
	And she's just like, well, I don't know.
	She doesn't have anything to say to that.
	I've never really been asked those things.
	Okay.
	If you were to do that as a child, what would have happened?
	Um... It's the most natural thing in the... Sorry to interrupt.
	It's the most natural thing in the world to do when you're a child and you're bored to say what?
	I'm bored.
	Right.
	My daughter says this like three or four times a day.
	I'm talking about something with her and she says, actually, Daddy, I'm bored of this topic.
	Can we talk about something else or do something else?
	No, we didn't talk about those kind of things.
	No, no, but my point is it's natural.
	It's entirely natural for children to be honest.
	The amount of airstrikes that need to be called in to destroy a child's cathedral of honesty is like solar in strength.
	So my question then is, why was it not possible for you to be naturally honest with your mom?
	What would be the negative consequences of you being honest with your mom when you were a child?
	Just being told that's not the way I'm supposed to be, perhaps.
	What if you persisted?
	I don't think I ever really persisted.
	Okay, what if you persisted?
	That's my point.
	Because this is the barrier with you and women now, right?
	You can't be honest.
	Okay, yeah.
	So you persist and say, wait, mom, do you want me to, do you want me to lie?
	Like if I have a thought, do you want me to hide it from you and do you want me to lie about it?
	I just never get asked my thoughts.
	Right.
	Never.
	So then you're, you just don't have any practice.
	So for this, like, so for you, honesty with a woman is like, Hey, let's, let's break into Japanese here.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	You're like, I'm sorry.
	I don't speak that language.
	Right.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	So you have no or little experience in honesty with women.
	And as you say with me, I'm honest with you, and I think you're certainly being honest with me, and I appreciate that and respect you for it.
	So we can have this conversation, and we can part amicably, right?
	At the end of the conversation.
	Right, absolutely.
	But for you, you are white-knighting women, which is odd for a MGTOW guy to be doing, right?
	Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	Yes, you are.
	I would disagree with that.
	Okay.
	Do you even know what I mean?
	Well, yeah.
	I need you to explain why you think that, so I can respond.
	Because you're treating women as fragile, and you're treating men as robust.
	Women can't handle the truth!
	You and I can have an honest conversation, but women... You know, you can't have an honest conversation with women, because they're so fragile!
	Or volatile, or whatever, right?
	Volatile, we'll go with that, yeah.
	Okay, so you are changing your behavior out of deference for women's weakness.
	Not their weakness.
	Volatility is a weakness!
	Irrationality, volatility, temper, anger, whatever.
	It's not a compliment, right?
	I'm actually just more afraid and distrustful of them.
	Okay.
	You're changing your behavior because of women's weakness.
	Or women's lack of virtue, or whatever, right?
	You are adjusting your behavior to protect women from your honesty.
	Or, more accurately, from their reaction to your honesty.
	Okay.
	Right?
	Look, if you don't want a white knight, be honest with women.
	Treat them like they're not fragile, like they're not kryptonite, like they're not ticking World War II hand grenades.
	Be honest.
	And if women freak out, fuck them.
	And if they don't freak out, great.
	But if you adjust your behavior because of your negative view of women to accommodate their whatever, that's white knighting.
	It's lying to women to get sex.
	And it's saying, if I'm honest with a woman, she won't have sex.
	In other words, a woman's sexuality is fueled only by deception and manipulation on the part of a man.
	You can have a straight conversation.
	You can have a straight conversation with me.
	We can be direct.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	But you're like, well, I can't possibly have these standards with women.
	Now, You couldn't have these standards with your mom.
	I kind of get that, right?
	But if you want to stop white knighting, have the same standards for a conversation with a woman that you have with me.
	Trust me, not all men can talk at this level either, right?
	You know that, right?
	It's not like, well, I can have this conversation with any man, but no women, right?
	So that would be my suggestion.
	If you want to have the best possible chance of having what you want, which is a great woman and a family life, you must, you must, you must be honest and direct with the woman the first time you're interested in asking her out.
	And don't even bother asking her out until you have this conversation.
	Say, look, we're not kids anymore.
	You know, we're in our thirties.
	We know that, you know, if you're interested in kids, but here's my perspective, right?
	I really want to have kids.
	I'm looking for a woman who's kind of rare.
	I'm sure, since you're still single in your late 20s or early 30s or whatever, you're looking for a guy who's rare.
	Let's talk about what we're looking for.
	Let's talk about our fears.
	Let's talk about... God!
	Get a woman to respond to that.
	I mean, you've got a lifetime of conversation that's going to be gripping.
	And if the woman is like, ah!
	Honesty!
	Run!
	It's like, hey, you know, thank you for saving me time.
	Good point.
	And then you can get.
	Everything that you want, which I think will also be best for your kid.
	I mean, look, you've heard me in conversations with women on this show, right?
	I don't think I'm wildly different with women.
	There's some occasional adjustments, but for the most part, I'm pretty much the same with women as I am with men.
	I don't really try to pull any punches with either gender, right?
	Right.
	No, you're fair and balanced, too.
	And do the women, like all, just freak out and get hysterical and cry, right?
	No.
	Not that I've heard, no.
	Yeah, so they're out there.
	Look, everybody appreciates a truth teller in the long run.
	Almost everybody, right?
	I mean, just be that person up front.
	There's nothing more efficient than honesty, nothing more efficient than openness, and nothing more powerful than vulnerability.
	There is nothing more powerful than vulnerability.
	Because vulnerability reveals everyone in your life who will abuse power immediately and almost irrevocably.
	There's nothing weaker than hiding your vulnerability, because it means it's a refusal to stare at those who will abuse power and see them for who they are, which means that they still have power over you and they still have control over you.
	Nothing is stronger than vulnerability.
	Nothing is more clarifying than vulnerability.
	Nothing is clearer than vulnerability.
	And if you hide who you are, you're just making a tombstone of your everyday actions.
	Because you don't exist in hiding, and you're letting The past robbed you of marriage and children.
	I had to lie to my mom.
	I couldn't be who I was with my mom.
	So that's all I'm ever going to do.
	But that's letting the bitch win.
	No, no, no.
	She had her life.
	She had her kids.
	You have your life.
	You have your kids.
	Exercise the power of vulnerability.
	Vulnerability breaks the past for we victims.
	Because we couldn't be vulnerable when we were children.
	Because we had no choice.
	We had no voluntarism.
	We had no freedom.
	We can be vulnerable as adults.
	That is a fundamental recognition that the world has changed.
	That we no longer live in the past.
	The world has changed.
	When you are vulnerable, you are signaling to your system that the past is over and done!
	That you're no longer a victim.
	You're no longer trapped in a destructive and abusive environment.
	Vulnerability means it's over.
	It's done.
	War is over.
	We're home.
	Ticket-tape parades is done.
	We're settling down.
	But if you continue to use the same defenses that you had in the past, all you're telling your whole body is that the past is not over.
	Be vulnerable.
	Be honest.
	Be open.
	Show your heart.
	That's the best way of telling your heart that the Tigers are no longer in the grass.
	Does that make sense at all?
	It does make sense.
	It conflicts with a little bit of macho pride, but I know you're right.
	You only think that because you still don't get how the vulnerability is the strength.
	No.
	No.
	Macho pride is, I want that which is powerful for me in my life.
	I want that which gets me what I want.
	I want that which gets me power.
	And I'm telling you, just take it for a spin, man.
	Vulnerability and openness will get you what you want in your life.
	Vulnerability and openness will get you exactly what you want in your life.
	And hiding will only get you the feeling of being prey from here to the end of your life.
	Those in power can be vulnerable.
	Those without power, right?
	The slave cannot cry when he's tired.
	The slave must always be smiling and empty.
	No vulnerability is possible to those at the bottom of the food chain.
	You never show Your weakness when you were in the power of abusers.
	A lack of vulnerability is a sign of being low on the food chain.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	Absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	Have you ever had a waiter sit down and complain about her shift when you're at a restaurant?
	No.
	Because they're there to serve you.
	They don't have needs.
	They don't have vulnerabilities.
	They don't have preferences.
	They're just there to serve you.
	Ever have a comedian come out and say he's having a really shitty day and complain about everything?
	No.
	His job is there to entertain you.
	He can't have vulnerabilities.
	Well, comedians, they'll make a joke out of it, though.
	No, but that's not being vulnerable.
	That's converting it to a joke.
	Right, but leaders don't go to... Oh, leaders are slaves, though!
	God!
	Of course leaders don't cry.
	Leaders are slaves to the delusions of the masses.
	I mean, God, we don't think they have power.
	They just have force.
	But real power.
	So, Leaders can't show weakness because that would be negative to the people who watch them.
	They would experience it because they're supposed to be parents and they're supposed to be gods and all that kind of stuff, right?
	I didn't mean leaders in the sense of, you know, state leaders or, you know, people in, you know, artificial position of authority.
	You know, I come from a, you know, corporate background where, you know, I was a manager and I had to lead by example.
	I didn't see it as a bad thing.
	Everyone was there by choice, obviously, and I didn't... Oh no, but look, I mean, if you're a manager, being vulnerable is very powerful.
	Right?
	Here's the situation of the company.
	I really need this to succeed.
	Here's where, you know, if you have vulnerability, And that's where Steph's battery died, unfortunately.
	But hey!
	What we did do is we picked up the conversation on a following show, and we're going to splice it all together for the sake of the YouTube audience.
	It's like the separation never occurred.
	Isn't that amazing?
	The wonders of technology!
	Enjoy the rest of the show, everybody.
	Douglas Goldstein, CFP®, is the director of Profile Investment Services and the host of the Goldstein on Gelt radio show.
	He is a licensed financial professional both in the U.S.
	and Israel.
	Securities offered through Portfolio Resources Group, Inc., Member FINRA, SIPC, MSRB, NFA, SIFMA.
	Accounts carried by National Financial Services LLC.
	Member NYSE®, a Fidelity Investments company.
	often associated with listeners getting the upper hand in a conversation.
	So just for those of you who are suspicious, your suspicions are extremely well-founded.
	Good for you.
	It was a conversation about honesty when dating and the most efficient way to potentially find the right woman.
	Steph pointed out some possible white knighting for women, because Wes wouldn't be completely honest due to a supposed weakness on their part, adjusting his behavior to accommodate their fragility.
	It ended with Steph saying vulnerability was a strength, but there was disagreement on that.
	Uh, a lack of vulnerability is a sign of being low on the food chain, and Wes asked, really?
	Leaders don't express vulnerability?
	And then Steph's batteries died as we were talking about leaders being total slaves.
	Uh-oh.
	Uh, again.
	Actually, it's not the tablet, it's just my personal batteries that need to be, uh, you know, I'm actually solar-powered, and it is October in Canada, so I'm afraid I'm gonna go pretty much into hibernation.
	So, um, Yeah, so you sort of feel like political powers and so on, political leaders and those in authority don't show vulnerability, don't show weakness and that makes them like kind of alphas.
	Is that right?
	Well, I want to make sure that we differentiate between leader and ruler.
	Obviously, I'm not for rulers as I know you're not either.
	But leadership, which is something I have a tiny bit of experience in, I understood what you were saying about in the case of if you're in a business sense where you're vulnerable to your employees or the people that are working with you on a project or something like that, like, hey, we've got to get this done.
	We're under a lot of pressure.
	I like that example of showing weakness, but I think we really have to define weakness I'll give you another example which I mentioned to Mike after the show.
	Vulnerability, sorry.
	Vulnerability, come on.
	You're right, you're right.
	Give me a fair fight here.
	I'll give you another example which I mentioned to Mike after the show.
	Oh wait, after my batteries had recharged.
	So I mentioned this to Mike.
	So when I was, after I finished my master's at University of Toronto, I mean, oh God, it was a horrible recession.
	I mean, just brutal.
	I mean, I couldn't get a job as a waiter.
	I couldn't, like, oh man, it was just, it was rough.
	Rough, rough, rough.
	And I was like weeding gardens, doing odd jobs, like just anything.
	And, you know, as is the case, even though my rent was like 270 bucks a month for a room in a house with four gay guys and a lesbian, which was a fantastic place to live, by the way, I just ran out of money.
	Normally, there's something you can do.
	It's like that song, we're in or we're out of the money.
	Sometimes this tide comes in, tide goes out.
	But I just hit the wall.
	No money.
	No like, oh, the check's coming in.
	Even friends, I tapped out.
	A lot of people in my age were going through tough times in those days.
	I had met this woman named Marnie who was working for a temp agency, like a placement agency.
	I called her up and I said, Marnie, oh man, I got to tell you, I need a job.
	I need a job so badly it's ridiculous.
	I've been programming since I was 11.
	I know word processing.
	I'm a wicked typist.
	I know spreadsheets.
	I really, really need a job.
	I want it to be with computers.
	I don't care.
	I'll move computers.
	I'll dust computers.
	I'll stack computers.
	I'll take computers on and off of a van.
	Just anything near computers.
	I'm absolutely desperate.
	I'm throwing myself completely at your mercy.
	I'm backed into a corner.
	I'm totally desperate for work.
	If there's anything you could do, I would be eternally in your debt.
	She got me my first professional gig as a programmer, COBOL programmer in a trading company.
	That's pretty close.
	As far as I can remember, that's what I said.
	When you show vulnerability, people will often want to help you.
	Of course, you'll also reveal the sadists and cruel people.
	Every time I put out a donation request, there is a clusterfrack of cosmic a-holes who say, stop begging for money.
	You know, just begging.
	You know, isn't trying to frame it like, oh, please, sir, can I have some more?
	A la Oliver Twist and so on.
	I mean, they're just complete tools, right, who are just trying to frame it in a particular way that, you know, asking for reciprocal generosity after I've put out thousands of highly educated, highly researched podcasts with tons and tons of experts and footnotes and all this kind of stuff, asking for donations is not begging highly researched podcasts with tons and tons of experts and Asking for donations is not begging.
	It's saying, be reasonable and pay for the value that you consume.
	Be responsible.
	This is a show about ethics.
	Do the right thing.
	Be ethical.
	Pay for what you consume.
	Be an adult.
	Be responsible.
	I'm not your parent.
	You don't get stuff for free in this world.
	So if you're not paying, I'm paying.
	And if you're not paying, other people have to pay.
	So stop being a free rider.
	Be an adult and donate to the shows that you consume.
	If that's their donation model.
	So, and then people, he's begging, right?
	So, people will try to, if you show vulnerability, and it is a vulnerable situation to say, listen, we need money, we got to grow, we got to eat, we got to, right?
	And people will try to reframe that as weakness.
	And that's wonderful.
	That is one of the major, major benefits of vulnerability is, you know, it's like the talcum powder over the invisible outline of the sadists around you.
	Be vulnerable and see who reacts with compassion and see who reacts with cruelty.
	It's amazingly powerful.
	I got you.
	Well if I may, can I bring this back to the topic of MGTOW?
	Sure.
	I'll parlay it back.
	So my aversion is to being vulnerable and putting yourself in a position of vulnerability to the state and by using the state as an extension of their will, women, in the case of marriage, divorce, child custody, things such as that.
	So, what do you think about putting yourself into that kind of vulnerable situation?
	Well, I mean, it's not advisable unless you really trust the person.
	Right.
	You know, when I was, I don't know, 17 years old, yeah, I was 17 years old, I went skydiving, and somebody packed my parachute for me.
	Because you could save $10 by packing your own parachute.
	I wasn't particularly rich at the time but it seemed like a pretty sound investment to me to pay for somebody's experience.
	So I put my life in that person's hands and jumped out of a plane.
	I think what I love about the MGTOW movement is the degree to which they are alerting men as to the dangers of Dick in a blender.
	And I think that's fantastic.
	You know, men need to have the sperm scared back into them because we're just photocopy, photocopy, eggs!
	Right?
	As we were talking about last time.
	And so I think it's fantastic that they're pointing out.
	Look, if I understand the sort of argument correctly, it's something like this very briefly.
	Would you go into a business which would have you in debt for hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next 20 years of your life if it had a 50% chance of failure?
	And there was a 60 to 70 percent chance if the business did fail that it would be a business partner who would initiate it, even over your strenuous objections.
	And people would say, well no, that's really not a very good thing.
	When I was starting my business, I remember signing personal guarantees for not hundreds of thousands of dollars, but some significant coin, and it was pretty alarming.
	But at least I had partners with me and we had skills and sales abilities and coding abilities so we were able to continue to grow the business.
	That's pretty alarming.
	But if you look at marriage as a business venture, which it kind of is because it involves so many assets and so many potentially lawyers and law courts and laws, so if you look at business as a potential marriage
	Rather than the sort of male fantasy of photocopied honeymoon sex from here to infinity till your penis is worn down to a tiny piece of shrapnel that then explodes into your nuts with lawyers attached, if you look at marriage as a business venture, which is what the state turns it into, then you need to be very aware and very serious about the odds.
	And I am for anything which raises our moral expectations of our romantic partners.
	I am totally keen.
	That's why I hate the welfare state.
	The welfare state deteriorates our expectations of virtue, particularly female to male.
	Women can go for the hot guys because they've got the state and the betas to back up the financial problems that the hot guys create.
	So they can indulge in crappy, petty, stupid lusts because they've got the state to back them up on whatever is going down.
	Medicare or Medicaid and all that kind of stuff.
	I mean for the reasons that they're violations of the non-aggression principle but also because they reduce the need for moral action within society.
	They reduce the rewards for being a good person.
	I'm sure you know or maybe you don't but I think there's a lot.
	So last – two years ago, I got a lump.
	Last year I finally had to flee to the United States and it cost me some money.
	I had to fly out, stay in a hotel, pay for surgery and the anesthesia and so on and people covered my bills.
	People covered my bills.
	They covered my bills because they really like what I'm doing.
	They have great affection for me.
	They have great affection for the show.
	They wanted to continue and that's partly their reason and also they just cared that I was sick and cared that it was going to cost money and they helped me out.
	And more than helped me out.
	I mean, they covered the bills.
	And that was a wonderfully generous thing.
	What the hell do I need a welfare state for?
	I'm loved.
	I'm cared for.
	What the hell would I need that stuff for?
	Young people are very socialist because... Sorry, it's tangent time.
	Young people are generally socialist because it takes a long time to build up the kind of reciprocity that gives you security in the face of life's vicissitudes.
	Right, so if you have risks in life, in other words, if you're alive, you have risks in life, then you can either cover those risks by getting insurance, or you can rely on your friends and family.
	And when people say we need a welfare state, what they're really saying is, I don't trust my friends and family to take care of me.
	Maybe you hang with a shallow crowd, maybe your family are jerks.
	Maybe, uh, you know, your friends are just into, you know, partying and looking cool and all that kind of stuff, and then if you get sick, they'll be like, oh, total bummer, man.
	I mean, massive amounts of, like, sympathies and stuff, but, uh, there's this rave going on, and, uh, totally, man, this, like, coffin thing you got going on, this pail thing, this I-don't-know-what-the-hell-is-coming-out-of-your-arm thing, that is like a, it's just, it's down in my, my high.
	It's harshening my buzz.
	We're going to go to the rave, but listen man, best of luck with whatever's got going on in your veins or whatever.
	Best of luck with that, but you know, it's really bringing me down.
	The little poodle in my purse is crying little tears of artificial sadness, so we're out of here!
	And so if you've got friends like that, you kind of need a welfare state.
	My welfare state is the kindness of strangers.
	I provide value as people see it, and I genuinely believe it's the best value on the planet, so people take care of me.
	So, you know, I give out generosity and generosity comes back from a tragically small proportion of listeners, but it's enough to get by.
	And so if you don't have a welfare state, then you actually have to care for your friends.
	You have to put the social time in to bring people soup when they're sick and take care of their kids, and so you've got that reciprocal social net.
	With the welfare state, you could be an asshole to anyone and everyone.
	You could be uncaring, thoughtless, shallow, needy, narcissistic, greedy, you name it.
	And then, if the welfare state goes out tomorrow, if the welfare state ends tomorrow, mean people, selfish people, empty people, they're kind of going to have to learn to be nice.
	And it's a bummer, it's a drag sometimes, taking care of other people and then hoping they're going to take care of you.
	when the time comes.
	It's kind of risky.
	The welfare state is kind of a sure thing, at least until the money runs out.
	It's kind of risky.
	Your friends might move away.
	You might give and give and give, and then when you need something back, it turns out they're selfish pricks.
	So you've got to be careful.
	There's so much that has blunted our need and desire for virtue.
	What I love about the MGTOW movement is the degree to which you guys are going out there You know, slapping men upside the penis with an oar and saying, stop thinking with that thing!
	Because there are lawyers powering ungreased dildos in a dark corner waiting to drag you down to the pit of family court and put your ass through a cheese grater.
	Right.
	Be afraid!
	Be very afraid!
	Right?
	That the predator is inside the house!
	The ring of un-power is the wedding ring.
	So, scare the shit out of men.
	I think that's fantastic.
	Then if men do want to get married and I didn't really want to until I met the right woman.
	They'll really look for virtue in women because, look, there are lots of great women out there who aren't tens, who aren't nines.
	I hope the caller from last week will meet one someday on last show.
	But there are lots of great women out there who are equally frustrated by guys running after the Sofia Vergara character, you know, the all curves who looks like she's been Playboy sticker peeled off at trucker's mud flap.
	So good women get really frustrated at guys continually chasing after shallow, sexy, dangerous witches.
	So I hope that men will look at the movie Shallow Howl, sort of look at the inner qualities of a woman rather than just the external markers of historical fertility and look for a woman who is virtuous, kind, generous, hardworking, quality, good, generous, hardworking, quality, good, caring, sensitive and all that.
	And then the risks go down enormously.
	But you never know.
	Oh no, you know.
	You don't know.
	Sorry, don't say me.
	I know.
	One never knows.
	My wife and I are going to be together until we're dead.
	Absolutely guaranteed.
	There's no divorce, nothing, not going to leave me.
	I'm not having an affair.
	Nothing's going to happen.
	We are just here for the duration.
	And of course, everyone immediately, not everyone, a lot of people are like, oh, yeah, we'll see.
	No, no, you will see.
	And it just, I mean, we married for, I guess, January 12 years and together for 13.
	And it's better, better every day.
	Well, that's your life, and I'm very happy that you're able to say that about it.
	I mean, I would like for everyone to be able to, but as you said, carrying the message that There are risks associated.
	It's very important.
	One thing you talked about just now was insurance.
	I recall a couple of months ago, before I knew about MGTOW and I had a name for it, pretty much all through my 20s, I was just, eh, marriage, blah.
	Men don't need marriage, blah.
	A couple of months ago, I was sitting in on one of those things where they trick you into sitting in a room where they can try to sell you on insurance or something like that.
	The guy was talking about these annuities that you could pay into.
	Yeah, all that good stuff.
	And his selling point was, well, if you're sued, they can't come after it.
	It's completely protected under blah, blah, blah law.
	And I queried him very deeply about all the ways that someone could possibly come after it, and he said, no.
	This is solid.
	And then I asked him, well, what happens if you're married?
	Do you then get to keep it?
	And he was like, no.
	Yeah.
	But that's not suing, right?
	Well, no.
	But I'm saying there's really no legal way for men to protect their assets.
	Yes, people say, well, just get a prenup.
	Well, the problem is there's case law and precedent across the United States where prenups are thrown out.
	It's really just up to the interpretation of the judge.
	Oh, yeah.
	I hear this.
	Like on the Robin Williams video, you can see those comments.
	Oh, man, he should have just got a prenup!
	Like, it's magic!
	It's bulletproof!
	You know, you are now invulnerable!
	It's like, no, it's the government, which means it's all subjective, it's all made up, and they are playing to the audience, and they are playing to the contemporary prejudices and so on.
	It's complete madness.
	Complete madness.
	So, yeah, the idea that a prenup is going to solve your problems is completely mad.
	It's like saying, well, I didn't break the law, so I'm fine.
	Not necessarily, right?
	And the only things that can be in a prenup are specifically, exclusively financial.
	There's nothing in there about child custody.
	That's all going to be up to the family courts to decide, so you're at their mercy.
	Obviously, you can't put in there, well, any other obligations.
	Like, you will have sex with me once a week.
	There's nothing in there that you could possibly put in.
	You can't indenture someone into sexual slavery, obviously.
	Financial slavery, yes.
	But sexual slavery, no.
	Because financial slavery is male, and sexual slavery is female, and therefore they're a completely different thing.
	Go ahead.
	And speaking of, even within marriage, anecdote from my You know, in personal life.
	Family.
	I'll try not to mention names.
	But, uncle.
	A very successful businessman.
	Very, very religious.
	I come from a very religious family.
	I'm not one myself.
	But, I do know that religious people don't break into my car and steal my stereo like someone has.
	So, we'll just go with that.
	I'm okay with religious people on that grounds.
	But, he stays married to my aunt.
	Partly out of, I'd say religious conviction.
	Very recently, he had a heart attack, and we were sitting around a family gathering, and my mother asked him about his scar or something like that to my aunt, and she said, oh, well, I haven't seen it.
	So, if she hasn't seen... He hasn't seen his... Wait, they cracked his chest for the heart attack?
	Yeah, well, they had to do a bypass, bypass surgery.
	So, he's got one of these, like, collarbone to sternum... I don't know.
	I just know that he had surgery, and I mean, that's big stuff.
	I mean, I've seen one of those before.
	I mean, it looks like they basically started to unzip you and then you just caught it in time, because it's a big-ass scar.
	And also, it's like they cracked the ribcage, right?
	I mean, it's a serious, bone-sore, like, Sweeney Todd kind of shit, right?
	So, it's a big deal.
	But you've never seen it?
	My aunt had not seen my uncle's scar, which means that... Maybe she's big on scuba sex.
	No, probably not.
	Yeah, that's... So they're not having sex, right?
	Yeah.
	No.
	They would not be.
	Now, they're an older couple.
	They're probably in their 50s, but... That don't matter.
	I know.
	I know.
	Come on.
	I'm 48.
	You're talking to the wrong demographic, if you're going to argue that.
	Well, you know, they're 50, if you can believe it.
	They don't attempt to eat their porridge through their eyeballs.
	They're relatively willing to drive and actually look over the steering wheel.
	You know, sex gets better as you age.
	You stay healthy.
	He stays with it, to his testament.
	He's always been a very successful business owner, all my life I've known.
	They've been very, very wealthy, very well-to-do, two-story house, nice cars.
	My aunt, his wife, always drives a brand new leased BMW every three years, switches it out.
	They started out, two daughters, both went to private out-of-state college.
	Okay, I got it.
	They got some money.
	You don't have to keep beating me up with the head with the money back.
	They've got money.
	Okay, I got it.
	Where I was going with that was not trying to be impressive or anything.
	I feel that he has fulfilled his duties, as you will, of the provider.
	So that's where I'm going with the story.
	And a couple of years ago, 2008, his business started taking on a lot of trouble.
	I mean, he worked related to the housing sector, so obviously he was... 2008, I mean, he's not alone in that.
	Yeah.
	And that's about the time where my mom... You know what 2008 was?
	It's a wonderful fucking time to start a podcast.
	I'm going to quit my job because I'm sure there won't be any problems in the economy that are going to prevent me from... Anyway, go ahead.
	Never mind.
	Yeah.
	Around about that time, they started having quote-unquote problems when his business wasn't doing too well.
	But, you know, they've stayed together all through that.
	But that's when my mom would intimate to me that they were having difficulties.
	So wait, wait.
	The man ran into financial or career difficulties, and this provoked discontent in the woman.
	Never heard that.
	Never heard that.
	No, it's true.
	Often if you cut off blood flow to an extremity, the leech gets upset.
	But anyway, go ahead.
	So somehow in that, though, he managed to make sure both his daughters finished school.
	Both of them got married.
	hugely lavish weddings.
	Again, not bragging or anything, but we're talking about he spent a lot of money doing all the things that he's expected to do as a provider male.
	There was this instance where he got it in his head that he wanted to pay tribute to a childhood hero.
	Someone that had been very influential in his life, and he wanted to erect sort of a monument to it.
	It was his idea, but he was a leader in the town, and he was able to get a lot of funding together for it, but he was still going to have to foot a lot of the bill.
	So to erect this monument, he had to spend something to the tune of maybe, I don't know, 80 grand out of his money.
	The level of backlash from the women in my family, every single one of them, were all against him.
	Sure.
	Even my grandmother was pissed at him.
	Yeah, because the women want the money to stay in the family, right?
	Well, correct, but in my mind, we were driving in the car one day, my sister and my mother, and they were telling me about how horrible he was for doing this.
	I'm listening to them, they're trying to convince me this is horrible, and then I retort to them, Has he not paid for both?
	What has he spent the money for?
	Well, he's got two kids.
	He put them both through college.
	They're both married.
	They're married with lavish weddings.
	Still living in that house.
	Aunt still has brand new BMWs.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	I'm sorry.
	His daughters got married and they're still living at home?
	No, no, no, no.
	He and his wife, my aunt and my uncle, are still living in their house.
	Oh, okay, so his kids got married and they're still living in a big house.
	Like the big house from the big family?
	No, the daughters, my cousins, they're out and living with their husbands.
	They've got their own lives, their own careers.
	Everything's set.
	But just the level of entitlement that every single woman in my family had... That's our money!
	Right?
	Right.
	And I argued with them on it, and I wasn't going to convince them of it.
	And of course, hush hush is the order of the day in my family.
	So they were like, well, don't you say that we said that.
	So instead, well, okay, I respect that.
	And I went to see it.
	I thought it was actually very, very nice.
	And I complimented on it, said, I thought it was very good what you did and left it at that.
	But I've had discussions with them, probed a little bit.
	But, can't teach an old dog new tricks.
	I don't really see him ever bending.
	He just walks around with a smile on his face and just pretends like everything's fine.
	So, he's just going to live that life.
	Yeah, I mean, he's just enjoying life, guys.
	See, but what happened was, in my humble opinion, and this is not all women, but it's a depressing percentage of women, what happened was, he had needs that had nothing to do with the women's needs, right?
	Exactly.
	Right?
	So he had a preference which did not benefit the woman in any way.
	And so said preference is incomprehensible to narcissists, right?
	Well, it's not my childhood hero.
	I would never spend money on that.
	So spending money on that is bad.
	It's like, but it's not your childhood hero, right?
	I mean, it's literally saying, I don't like vampire movies, so I cannot for the life of me understand how there could be such a thing as vampire movies.
	It's like, are you stupid?
	No, I guess just completely self-obsessed, right?
	Right.
	And he attributes personally his success, like his moral acuity and his hard work ethic to this person.
	The argument could be made that he was influenced to such that he was so successful, and all of his wife and his daughter's benefit came from the line of that influence.
	But it's too many degrees separated for them to obviously see that.
	But I'm sure the women spent most of the money he made, right?
	You mean women control like 80%?
	Sorry, just for those who don't know, women control like 80% of domestic spending, like spending in the household.
	So, it's less money for them to spend for a need that they can't comprehend because it's not their need, which just shows you how, to me, staggeringly selfish an indication of a really stunted and immature personality that is.
	That just serves, and this is my family I'm talking about, so these are the people that I'm going to be closest to, see the most of, know the most about, and this kind of example of female entitlement to a man's resources and labor, it doesn't really endear me to the idea of making myself vulnerable, as you were, to such a force as that.
	Well, okay, but let's look on the other side of the coin, right?
	So, were these women stay-at-home moms?
	Did they raise kids?
	Did they volunteer in the community?
	Did they do stuff?
	Yes.
	Did that mean clients?
	Okay, so I mean they worked pretty hard.
	I mean obviously for the first couple of years then the kids go off to school but you know there's still work in running a household and so they did that stuff.
	I'm reaching here but you know they weren't like just ladies who lunch, you know, bonbons in Spanish.
	I'm entirely with you on that.
	I believe that, you know, if you have, if a woman gives up her career to stay at home, raise kids, then she would be entitled.
	Because she's given up that earning potential.
	I don't believe that at all.
	I mean, I don't.
	And I could be wrong about this.
	I've made the case.
	Just very briefly, she got paid for staying at home.
	She had a job called stay-at-home mom.
	Wife.
	And she got 80% of the man's money for that job.
	What happens if you quit a job?
	Do you still get paid?
	True.
	No, and we have plenty of opportunities nowadays.
	Well, I don't care.
	Look, it's like me saying, look, hey man, okay, I have a job as a Starbucks barista.
	And if I quit or get fired, they owe me a million dollars.
	Because I could have been a rock star.
	And I sacrificed my rockstarness to be a Starbucks barista.
	So they owe me, man.
	They owe me stadiums.
	They owe me groupies.
	They owe me syphilis and tattoos and hair gel that would be enough to choke a yak.
	So you owe me, you bastard Starbucks people, because I gave up rock stardom to make foamy, shitty lattes.
	Then I'm a little bit confused about it.
	You got paid for being a Starbucks barista, and if you quit that job, So, you don't give... If a woman's... How the hell do you give up something and get paid for doing so?
	Right, I'm confused, though, how you made that jump.
	Because at first it sounded, you know, when you asked... Like, why did you ask what the women did?
	You asked if they were stay-at-home moms and that kind of thing.
	No, it's not because I consider their money theirs.
	It's just that they did work, too, right?
	Right, okay.
	That doesn't mean that they... You know, if... In my ideal society, Which is what I would vote for with my dollars in a free society, like how things would work, right?
	It would be... I would get married to a woman, and if she divorced me, then I owe her nothing.
	We share custody of the children, and so we wouldn't be paying each other.
	And this crazy shit, like, Just keep the woman or the children in the style to which they've become accustomed.
	That is just estrogen-praising bullshit.
	That is just so ridiculous.
	You know what keep the children in the style to which they've become accustomed is?
	It's a way of women being able to leave their husbands without pissing off the children.
	Because what happens if mommy gets kind of restless and is feeling discontented and crabby And then she leaves the husband, and then she goes from a nice house to, like, a studio apartment on the wrong side of the tracks.
	Well, how do the kids feel about that?
	Yep.
	They're not happy.
	I have total agreement with you.
	Yeah, total agreement.
	Yeah, they're not happy.
	And so this idea that keep the children in the style with which they're being accustomed, it's like, fuck that!
	I mean, you know, the man has been accustomed to regular sex.
	Who's paying for that?
	Who's going to keep the man in the pussy to which he's become accustomed?
	Well, on that note, marriage gives a man no guarantee to that.
	I mean, goodness, feminists have eroded any sense of obligation that a wife would have to sleep with her husband.
	My fundamental point of that is the contract, the social contract that marriage was Marriage 1.0, as Dalrock would call it, no longer exists.
	And now marriage 2.0 is all the responsibilities put on the man.
	No, no, no.
	But you're... No, no, I get it.
	Look, I get it.
	But what you're saying is that marriage is defined by the state.
	Correct.
	But that's not true.
	Yeah, I would say that the marriage is defined by the state.
	No, it's not true.
	How is my marriage defined by the state?
	Are you legally married?
	We are legally married.
	In some way, you have a state-sanctioned marriage.
	Now, you can have a relationship, but then you go into semantics like, well, we're married.
	Wait, hang on.
	Are you saying that 11 years ago we signed a piece of paper, and therefore the state defines my marriage?
	You define the relationship that you have, but the word marriage, that's going to be a state-sanctioned concept.
	But that's like saying that because there's the welfare state, the government defines charity.
	No, I wouldn't say that.
	My wife and I had discussions before we got married about what would happen if the marriage didn't work out.
	And we both agreed that we would seek nothing from the other.
	Now, did we make a contract?
	No!
	Because I'm not going to marry someone, neither will I do business with someone where I need Massive amounts of paperwork, because that means I don't trust them.
	And we discussed it all, and I accepted her perspective, she accepted my perspective.
	It's never been an issue, it never will be an issue.
	And I don't know if the incomprehensible happened and we got divorced.
	She would stick by what she said, and I would stick by what I said.
	And if I didn't believe that she would, I never would have married her, because I had a pretty fine life without getting married.
	For me, it's a better life being married, but it wasn't to me like oxygen.
	So my marriage, look, I pay off the state, but it's like paying property tax.
	You pay off the state, but you still live in your house, right?
	Yeah, they own it technically, who cares, right?
	Pay them off and forget them.
	So you sign your piece of paper, and I don't see how that defines my marriage.
	I would say your relationship with your wife, you and she define it.
	The relationship that two people have, they can make that agreement out of trust.
	The piece of paper, the laws?
	I've got to stick with my guns here that marriage is defined by the state.
	In fact, in some states, if you introduce someone that you're in a relationship with as your wife, they can then use that as grounds in court to make you officially common-law married, say that you were to break up.
	He's been introduced to me as his wife.
	But this is the MGTOW issue for me.
	This is the fundamental MGTOW issue for me.
	And if you stare at the laws only, of course they're terrifying and ridiculous and absurd and dangerous.
	And the state, of course.
	Absolutely.
	But that's not what marriage is.
	That's what the government has imposed, but that's not what marriage is.
	Marriage is the commitment between two people to love each other for the rest of their lives.
	You are my number one priority.
	This relationship is my number one priority.
	I would agree with you if you agreed to have a long-term relationship, cohabitation, but did not legally sanction the marriage.
	The problem then becomes if you live in the same place in some states, some jurisdictions, for a certain amount of time, you become common-law married, so the state still sees you as being in their definition of marriage.
	No, I understand that.
	What I'm saying is that you find a woman Who's an anarchist, right?
	How likely is a committed anarchist to invoke the power of the state in a marriage?
	Unlikely.
	This is what MGTOW is.
	It's like we've got this thriving anarcho-capitalist community.
	Property rights, individualism, no state power, we're all avoidable, blah de blah de blah, right?
	And so just find an anarchist.
	It's like saying, well, I don't want to get married because you've got to get up.
	Your wife drags you to church every Sunday.
	It's like, then marry an atheist.
	And you don't have to worry about that.
	Right?
	Well, why don't you find an anarchist, a woman, and you don't have to worry about her dragging the state into your affairs.
	This may open a whole tangent, but that's OK.
	But why don't you believe that, or why don't you think that people, or more people are anarchists?
	Why do you think that it's not as appealing as, say, being a socialist?
	Ah, that's a – I mean that's a – no, I mean just – you can look at my rebuttal to the zeitgeist debate for on that.
	But very briefly, socialism arises out of unmet childhood needs.
	People want to turn the state into their family in the hopes of avoiding the necessary trauma processing of a childhood where you didn't get your resources because socialism and fascism and communism, national socialism, all these totalitarian or totalitarian style regimes are about staying a child and having the state as parents, right?
	The military state as daddy and the welfare state as mommy take care of you so you never have to face the fact that you weren't taken care of as a child.
	And to me, the neglect that children experience, if you experience abuse, you're more likely to go towards totalitarianism, and if you experience neglect, you're more likely to go towards socialism.
	And so for me, it's just all these unmet childhood needs.
	I'm sorry?
	Let me focus a little bit.
	What about in terms of incentives?
	Like, the socialist state offers a lot more incentives to, say, not work.
	Or the welfare state, for instance.
	Would you agree there?
	Like, fewer people will work because They can make more money off of welfare or being welfare queens than they would to go find a minimum wage job.
	That's not granular enough because if you're a very smart person, then the welfare state has almost no appeal to you because you'll do much better in the market.
	Idiots, dumb people, like people with IQs of like 85.
	Maybe 87 or lower, which is a significant proportion of the population.
	You know, as the old George Carlin joke goes, you know, look how dumb the average person is.
	Well, half of them are dumber than that, right?
	And so, idiots, and you know, can be genetic, but basically people who are not smart are much keener on the welfare state because it pays them disproportionately Beneficial rates, compared to what they could get elsewhere.
	It was an incentive, then, to support the state, because they're incentivized, as opposed to the free market doing as it may, right?
	Well, yes, but then you'd have to say, if that were the case, you'd have to say, well, then, you know, rich kids at Harvard must all be capitalists, but that's not true at all.
	Rich kids in universities are overwhelmingly socialist, more so even, in my experience, than the poor people.
	Right, but would you say that incentives drive behavior or can influence behavior?
	I'm not sure why you'd even ask me.
	Do you believe that sometimes it rains?
	Do incentives affect behavior?
	No, this is important.
	I know, but it's also important that you don't ask me questions completely obvious that insult my intelligence.
	No, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence.
	I'm just trying to lead you into a trap.
	No, lead me into a trap.
	Just don't do it so obviously.
	I don't like to see the netting before I step on it.
	Let me just lay my cards on the table then.
	I believe that the state creates perverse incentives to dissolve marriages.
	You can have someone that you trust and you can have someone that you originally trusted implicitly, but the economic incentives to having access to half or large percentages of a man's resources can outweigh rational or loving behavior where but the economic incentives to having access to half or large percentages of a man's resources can outweigh rational or loving behavior where they're like, well, I can have everything
	So I think that that incentive exists, so I'm going to take advantage of that and initiate the divorce.
	Now, as you said, finding someone that is honorable and virtuous can hopefully keep you away from that situation, but the state and its sanctioning of marriage, not the relationship between people, it creates these incentives that incentivize women to disregard it creates these incentives that incentivize women to disregard or discard the men that were formerly their providers.
	No, I get all of that, and given that risk, if you are interested in having a long-term relationship and having children, given that risk, you need to work extra hard to find the right woman. - Right.
	You need to have somebody who thinks for themselves, a woman who has integrity, a woman who rejects the initiation of force as a fundamental moral principle.
	You know, talk about the non-aggression principle.
	I'm not farting out of my armpit.
	It's essential shit for your happiness in life.
	I agree.
	I agree with it.
	Right?
	Because if a woman says, I reject the non-aggression principle, and she is a virtuous person, she's committed to virtue, and she makes the necessary sacrifices to be virtuous,
	And to live consistently, which if you meet a woman who's already an anarchist and an atheist and a philosopher and a thinker and all that, it doesn't matter to what degree she's creative or what skills she has in the realm of philosophy, it only really matters that she has already taken the steps and made the sacrifices to be a moral person.
	Then she has sunk costs into virtue, right?
	You know what that is, right?
	It's like if you wait for a bus for half an hour, you're much less likely to walk, right?
	If you wait for a bus for five minutes, you're more likely to walk.
	And so if you find someone, find a woman who has sunk costs.
	She's already made the sacrifice.
	Maybe she grew up in a religious family.
	She's become an atheist.
	She's taken those bullets.
	She's taken those hits.
	Maybe her mom's a schoolteacher and she's become an anarchist and she's taken those hits and she has committed to virtue, even against the hostility.
	or scorn or condemnation of those around her, right?
	You find someone who either already has or is willing to sink costs into being virtuous because the best predictor of future behavior by far is relevant past behavior, right?
	And so if a woman Has defied the religiosity of her family.
	If a woman has defied the socialist or status programming of her childhood and school and peers, then she has already given up comfort for the sake of virtue.
	She has already rejected the prize of social conformity for the sake of being virtuous.
	This woman will never use the state to take your money.
	Because she has already made the sacrifices.
	She's already shown and proven that she is willing to be virtuous at great personal cost.
	She is willing to place the Fountainhead, the Godhead, the North Star of Integrity above material concerns, above the approval of the tribe, above the approval of the family, above even perhaps the approval of her society.
	She's already said no To taking half your money by the time she's met you.
	And this is why you can find these people.
	They are out there.
	If you wish to have no government in your marriage find a woman who has rejected the government.
	Find a woman who has already invested in virtue.
	And she has already guaranteed in the future by her past actions that she will choose integrity and virtue over material gain, over emotional comfort every time.
	And then you have nothing to fear.
	Anybody out there worried about me running for office?
	Are you?
	You should.
	I don't think you get elected.
	Are you worried about me?
	Do you think I'm going to run for office?
	I could.
	I'd be really good at it.
	Think I can't do a speech?
	Think I can't rouse a nation?
	Sure as shit can.
	Are you concerned about me running for office?
	You?
	You think I will?
	Yeah.
	I'd agree.
	You come from a place of rationality, and you speak frankly and honestly.
	I don't think you would abuse the powers of the state.
	It's a shame that... Do you think I'm going to run for office?
	No, you're not going to.
	Of course not.
	No.
	Of course not.
	But people like you should.
	Oh, I completely disagree.
	That's a great way to neuter me.
	If you want to be important in the moment and forgotten in history, run for office.
	If you want to be inconsequential in the moment but alter history completely, follow philosophy.
	Espouse philosophy.
	Spread philosophy.
	So, anyway, that's my suggestions.
	Find the right woman, and there are very clear ideological markers.
	A woman who's a conformist is a woman who seeks comfort over integrity.
	And she will then take half your house, because it's more comfortable to have more money.
	And she's not barred from such action by any moral scruples.
	I think that puts it pretty succinctly.
	I like that.
	That is perhaps one of the red flags that you could look for.
	Comfort over, what was it you said?
	A woman who seeks comfort over integrity.
	Integrity, I gotcha.
	Everybody knows that being a good person in the world is A buffet of largely delectable stuff with the occasional shit sandwich fired up your nose by a cannon full of assholes, right?
	And so if you want to find a woman you can trust, find a woman who has been willing to suffer for virtue and who fully recognizes the non-aggression principle.
	Then you'll get a woman who's not manipulative, who won't lie to you, who won't hit your children, who won't threaten you.
	And because you are both the rarest of rare creatures, people who value integrity over comfort, she's not going to sleep around, right?
	Because she's not going to find someone like you.
	Be excellent, be rare, and be incredibly discriminatory.
	And you can find the people you can trust, and there are very clear philosophical and empirical markers that guarantee you.
	Guarantee you.
	Certainty in your relationships.
	Gotcha.
	Thanks, Steph.
	I appreciate that.
	Thanks, man.

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