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May 30, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
58:44
"I Can't Dump My Hot Guy!" Freedomain Call In
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What's on your mind?
Well, I don't know if you read all my emails, but I did send a few.
I'm just struggling, or I have been struggling with a fellow that I'm with right now, but I can't seem to, you know, get off the pot, so to speak.
Do you need to know any of my history?
Like, did you read any of my emails?
I guess more get the audience up to speed, but yeah, I think it would be good to hear about that.
Okay, so I'm 60 years old.
I'm the oldest girl of eight children.
I had lots of responsibility.
I married young.
I had three boys.
I was divorced at 28, the year after my father died.
I lost a boyfriend to a car accident and another one to a drug overdose before I was married.
I remarried at 37.
To a man older than me with three daughters, we raised them and then he got sick and he died.
So after 13 years of marriage with him, I was devastated and lost.
And also during my second marriage, one of my brothers died at 36 and another at 38.
After seven years of mourning, is what I call it, I met a man online on a dating website and he swept me off my very practical feet.
Um, so I fell madly in love with him.
Uh, however, and we moved in together and after a year and a half, I left him.
Uh, I moved out because I felt that, uh, it was, I was feeling like it wasn't healthy.
It wasn't becoming an unhealthy relationship.
However, having said that, I still see him.
Um, he, He professes his love for me, but he does like to, or he's, you know, he was always interested in younger women.
He's the same age as me.
So my question to you was, he constantly lusts after younger women and yet he professes his love for me.
I have a stable job, he does not.
I'm responsible, he sometimes isn't.
I'm torn between why do I hang on to him?
I can't seem to let him go.
And yet we broke up and now he's asked me to come back because he's professed his love for me.
He's decided I'm the one he wants to be with.
And here I am at 60, feeling like I can't even make up my mind.
I still want to be with him, but we don't We can't seem to resolve issues.
He listens to you all the time.
He's the one who encouraged me to listen to you.
We both got lots out of listening to you.
And he's very excited about me calling you today.
Let's hope that stays that way.
Yes, let's hope it does too.
And he said, oh, tell him this and tell him that.
I said, no, no, you can tell him that when you're ready to talk to him.
So I don't know, Stefan.
I'm not sure what it is that I want to talk to you about.
I just feel like part of me wonders why I'm hanging on to this relationship.
Oh, it's horrible.
No, listen, that's why I wanted to take the call, is it's a horrible place to be when you are in a relationship that is neither satisfying enough to commit to nor dissatisfying enough to leave permanently.
That's the null zone.
That's when you're kind of orbiting the dead star and it can consume.
I was in one of those relationships for years.
Oh, it's good enough that you keep coming back for more, but it's not good enough that you can relax and actually trust the future that you're trying to build together.
So there are a lot of people stuck in this null zone, right?
Because if you could break up with this guy, maybe you could find someone else or maybe you could be happy being alone or something like that.
But this is torture, right?
This is a kind of hell itself because you're not free to pursue something else.
But you're also not able to relax into and trust the existing relationship.
So I sympathize enormously.
It's a brutal situation.
You're not alone, obviously.
There are lots of people in this situation.
I can bring my own personal experience to bear on this kind of situation.
So I just wanted to get that across.
You're not crazy.
It's horribly common.
Thank you.
Are you there?
Yeah.
Can you hear me?
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Can you just do me a favor?
I know you're not like in a studio, but you need to try and hold your phone more still and stuff or whatever it is because it's rustling and it's just going to dry.
I want people to hear the conversation without having to be annoyed at the background noise.
So just trying.
I hate to say stay as still as possible, but if you can, that'd be great.
Well, I'm going to try and stay still as possible.
So why?
Okay.
What was it that attracted to you?
Let's call him Bob, right?
So what was it that attracted you to Bob to begin with?
Um, well, he's a very handsome man.
He's very charming.
Oh, no.
We have, we have a, yeah.
Oh, come on.
Yeah.
No, seriously.
Seriously.
No, no, I understand that.
I understand that.
But you're 60.
I mean, the hormones shouldn't be running your love decisions completely at this point, right?
Right.
No, I know that.
But I met him when I was 57 or 58.
I'd been totally in mourning for years.
And it was exciting.
Seriously, no, my hormones aren't running my decisions, but we have a great chemistry.
He's lots of fun.
We have lots that we like to do together.
We love classical music and we enjoy that together.
We play pool together.
There's things we really enjoy.
He was very much there when we were first going out.
What do you mean he was very much there?
Present.
Like, just there and present in my life.
Like, it was all about him and I. We were making plans together.
It was great.
And so, yes, I do feel like I was a bit of a teenager with this in the beginning.
And however, as time has gone on, when we moved in, we actually moved in together.
His roommate, or his roommate, his best friend joined us because we rented a house together.
We live in Vancouver, so it's a very expensive city to live in on your own.
His best friend joined you?
Yeah.
Okay, I know this is Vancouver.
Listen, there's a granola.
For those who don't know, Vancouver is like the L.A.
or San Francisco of Canada.
You know, like when you pour cornflakes into a bowl, that's where all your flakes gather.
Well, that's kind of like Vancouver.
And there's a charm to it, and there's an open-mindedness to it, but also there is a little bit of questionable non-standardization in particularly the romantic configurations of people out on the West Coast and in Vancouver in particular, just for those who don't know.
Right.
I totally agree.
Yep, I totally agree.
And I wasn't born and raised here either.
Hang on, how old is Bob?
He's the same age as me.
He's 60.
So why is Bob having his friend move in with his girlfriend and himself?
Well, because Bob had nowhere to live.
Bob is like his friend, or his friend is like Bob, and he didn't have anywhere to live.
We wanted to rent a place so I could be closer to work.
And to get this place, it was a lot of rent, so we went in together with the agreement that, you know, he and I were moving in together His friend was joining us.
But what ended up happening was instead of Bob and I having our relationship, the two of us, it became him and his friend.
You mean he was spending more time hanging around with his friend than his girlfriend?
Yes, because they didn't work.
They don't work full time.
They have jobs that are sporadic.
I'm the one who's going to work every day and has to get up in the morning.
And I was at night time Time was moving on, and I was finding that they were staying up late, and they were playing games, and they were loud, and I asked them to be quiet so I could sleep, and then it ended up being an argument, and it was me that was just the problem, it seems.
So that's when I made the decision, and I tried to discuss this with them, and it just wasn't flying.
So I made the decision, you know what?
I don't have to stay here.
I can afford to move out on my own.
So I did.
So, hang on.
Okay, so let me just get some time frame here.
Just so I can get some sleep.
Hang on, hang on, hang on.
No, listen, listen, listen, listen.
Okay, we can't have a conversation if you start talking when I'm talking, okay?
Okay.
Thank you.
And also, there's a lot of rustling still.
So, let me ask you this.
From the moment that you met him until the moment, or from the moment you first contacted him on the dating site until the moment you moved in, how long was that?
Only a couple months.
He moved in with me to my condo.
First, and then we rented a place together.
Okay, so how long before you first contacted him, or he you, did he move in?
How long?
Three months.
Okay, and then how long was it before you moved in with the friend?
Another five months.
Okay, so you had been living together for five months when you decided it would be a good idea to go move in with this other fellow, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
And how was the five months of living together with him beforehand?
It was pretty good.
We were having a great time.
And was he paying rent?
Yeah, he was contributing.
Wait, he was contributing or paying half?
He was contributing.
I'm not sure what that means.
Well, he was paying a portion.
What portion?
Well, probably more like between a third and a half.
And so he doesn't make much money, right?
Right.
And what field does he work in that allows him to work so sporadically?
He's an actor.
Oh, he's an actor?
Yep.
I'm gonna guess that he's not a wildly successful actor.
Not sometimes, yes, and sometimes no.
Right.
And how long has he been acting?
For a long time actually, but just recently he's got back into it.
So I'd say for about the last five years again.
And what did he do before that?
He worked at construction jobs and he's had a lot of different jobs.
Right.
And would you say he's intelligent?
Yeah, I think he's intelligent.
So he's intelligent and he's good looking.
Does he have good verbal skills?
Yes, when he wants to, absolutely.
Okay.
So he's, I think, you know, if he listens to this show, I'm going to put him in the very intelligent category.
So he's very intelligent.
He's good looking.
He's got good verbal skills.
Is he educated?
He has his high school diploma and he has a certificate from a college.
All right.
So would you say that he's been a success in his life?
In some areas, yeah.
And what are those areas?
But not all of them.
Well, he raised a lovely daughter.
So I think he's been successful in that.
He hasn't been successful, probably.
He's probably been less successful than he has been successful.
Why do you think that is?
He doesn't seem to stick to things.
Well, see, there's a clue.
For very long.
Yeah.
There's a clue that, you know, the good news is when you're, I'm just going to say 60, I know you met him a year or two ago, right?
But when you're 60, people come with a very big and long resume by then, right?
Yes.
And so if he's not had any capacity to really stick with things or follow things through or whatever, well, that's going to show up in not just his work relationships, but probably his personal relationships as well, right?
Yeah.
So what happened to the mother of his daughter?
They split up years ago.
Why?
She's still around.
They just didn't want to be together anymore.
That's not an answer.
Come on, don't give me a tautology.
Why did they split up?
Well, they didn't like being together.
Well, I get that.
Stephan, I don't want to share his story, but I do know why they split up.
They were fooling around on each other.
They weren't together.
Okay, so they were mutual affairs, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So he's a cheater, she's a cheater.
Yeah.
And he can't really commit to his work life.
Right.
Any warning signs so far?
Oh, Stefan, I've seen warning signs all along.
I'm the one that's the problem here.
That's why I'm calling you.
I'm the one who hasn't been able to let go.
Right.
I see the warning signs.
But I haven't run.
I didn't run.
Right.
And I want to know what the hell is wrong with me that I can't seem to let go.
Well, there may be something wrong with you.
There may be nothing wrong with you.
It may just be a natural human phenomenon to want to hang on to a high-status male when you're 60.
Okay.
No, I mean, am I wrong?
No, you're not wrong.
It sounds kind of silly, but yeah, you're not wrong at all.
No, it's not.
Listen, I mean, it's not always.
The way that explains everything.
But the first place, you know, you've heard me on this show, I say to people, you know, how pretty is she?
How handsome is he?
Scale of attractiveness.
Because all of this stuff is biological and It may be the case that there's some deep-seated psychological issue, or it may just be that he's the highest status male that you can get, and if you don't feel like there's much of a lineup for you at the age of 60, then you'll be like, okay, well, I'll compromise my values in order to keep this good-looking, high-status guy around, right?
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
And, I mean, yeah.
I don't want to paint him as totally...
Like that, because he has some great qualities.
I wouldn't be with him if he didn't.
It's just, I, I do ask myself, you know, what is it?
Because I've had so many people die on, so many good men in my life have died on me.
You know, do I have a hang up about that?
Am I, yes, am I settling because I am 60 and I'm still attractive at 60, but that's not what my life's all about.
And yet I've fallen for a guy who's really attractive.
That's never been my way either.
So when you said earlier that he is attracted to younger women, what does this mean?
Well, he's always been with younger women.
And his girlfriend just before me and me have been the only women he's ever been with that have been his own age.
And what's the age gap usually?
And he's, uh, 15 years, maybe 10, 15 years.
Right.
Okay.
And I know that because I was on the dating website and I know that older men tend to be attracted to younger women.
I get that.
I just believed him when he said, you know, that that's not what he's interested in.
But when we're out, he's very flirtatious.
And anyway, he broke up with me to say he wasn't sure he wanted to be with me anymore.
He wanted to go out and explore if there was other women out there.
Well, he's got lots of options.
I let him go.
He's got a lot more options than you have on average in your age group, right?
Right.
Right.
So I let him go because I feel like if you really love somebody and you really care about them, you can't hang on to them and make them stay.
I let him go and do what he needed to do.
Okay, so he says he wants to go date other women, right?
Mm-hmm.
But he came back.
How long ago was that?
Well, that was last summer, and then in November, he professed to me that he wants to be with me.
He listened to your show about go for heart, not for hot.
Go for heart?
Is that your show?
Well, it's something I've said.
I'm glad at least one of you was listening to that.
Oh my God, we listened to a lot of your stuff.
Yeah, he said, I'm the one he wants to be with because I am the woman he wants to be with.
It's not about heart, it's about heart.
Does he not think you're hot?
Well, he says I'm beautiful.
However, what I said to him was, I'd be willing to give it a try with you again, but I'm not moving back in.
I want to just date you.
Because we're not making plans together.
Yet lately he's been, move back in honey, you should be here, move back in.
And I just don't trust, I think I don't trust enough that it would be okay.
Is he still living with his friend?
No, his friend moved out.
They had a falling out too.
Really?
So, another broken relationship?
Yes.
Right.
So, he has other people living with him now.
Right.
So, it's still, I still work full time.
I'm up at 4.30 every day.
There's no way, I need to have, I need to be able to sleep at night.
I'm not moving back in.
Are you a farmer?
No, I'd love to be though.
It's on my wish list.
That's an early morning rise.
No, I work for a financial planner.
I work in Vancouver and everything's Eastern time, right? - Yeah, yeah, okay, all right. - So, but I've always wanted to be a farmer though.
Okay, let's let's keep the you want to be a farmer.
We'll bookmark that for perhaps another time.
Now, let me ask you this, though.
So and feel free to go to in excruciating detail here.
When he decided to come back to you or to try to come back to you.
What happened?
How did he how did that play out?
What did he say?
He said, I've been I've missed you so much.
I've been I've gone, I've met some other girls and tried to go on dates.
I am not interested.
I realized that you are the one I want to be with.
So that's what he said.
And he said, what do I need to do?
Where do I need to modify my behavior?
What do I need to do to, to make it work with you?
And what do you need from me?
So we had a heart-to-heart, I gave him what I needed, what I wanted, and he said, okay, I'm gonna try this, I'm gonna see what I can do.
What did you say that you wanted?
Well, I want somebody who's there for me, like when I need him, like not just when it's convenient for him.
And what I mean by that is, You know, not just physically, I need someone there sometimes emotionally or just to be there to share my day with.
So he has been great with that.
Well, no, see, here's the thing, though, that it's not whether he's great at times.
Obviously, he's great at times.
But it's the consistency in the follow through, right?
Right.
Right, like I can blindfold myself and I can whack a thousand golf balls and maybe I'll get a hole in one and, you know, if people just see that video they say, wow, he's a great golfer, right?
But the question is, can it be consistent and repeated?
That's a really good point.
Because people who are charming, they know... Are you still moving around a lot?
I'm still getting a lot of hissing and... Sorry, I'm in my car and it's really hot out and I had to get out and get some Can I share for a minute?
Okay.
Do you want to take a short break?
No, I'm just trying to make it comfortable.
I'm fine now.
You want to crack a window?
I'm fine.
I'm back.
I'm back in the car.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you want to crack a window, I would sure hate for you to pass out during the conversation.
I was reading your website about it has to be quiet and all that.
So I was trying to make it really quiet.
Right.
Right.
But you also need to breathe.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
So yes, it's it's it's really so people who are very charming.
They know the right thing to do.
But at the right time.
Well, they know the right thing to do even at the right time.
It's just that they don't find it worthwhile to sustain that behavior.
In other words, when they want something, they'll do the right thing to get what they want.
But then, afterwards, when they've gotten what they want, they don't feel the same need to keep doing it because they already have what they want, right?
Right.
It's sort of like if you look at people like utility, right?
Like Uber or Lyft, right?
You want to get from the airport home, you call up your Uber and you chat with the guy but you're just there to get home, right?
Now, you don't call the guy up the next day and say, hey, why don't you brunch, right?
You know, because it was – you would just – so you're chatting with the guy and friendly in the car because you are using him to get home and he's using you for money and there's nothing – it sounds cold.
It's just natural.
You then stop talking with him, you pay the money, and then you'd never see him again probably, right?
Because there's no consistency, because the relationship is based upon utility, not upon value, not upon virtue.
Right.
I mean, the same thing is, you know, that old song, you know, you're old enough that I can have musical references these days that you'll get, which is kind of nice for me once in a while.
But you know that old song, Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?
Right.
Which is the fear that women have, of course, that the man is charming and loving and attentive and so on, so that he can get into her pants.
And then after he has gotten into her pants, it's the pump and dump.
He moves on and he's cold and he doesn't – because he got what he wanted, right?
And that's the great fear.
Is there something that is utilitarian in the relationship?
And that's your fear, right?
Why is he being nice to me?
Well, it could be because he woke up to the wonder that is you and so on.
And that's great.
But it also could be and I would put my money on this.
There could be a couple of reasons why he came back.
Number one, he went out there and found that you're the best of the group, right?
Yeah.
Now, he's been dating a long time, I assume, right?
He's been single for a long time.
Oh, yeah.
Right, so he's been dating for a long time, so he knows the lay of the land.
So, you know, the idea that, like, you're not good enough for me, I can do better.
That's basically why he left you.
So he went out, he tried to do better, maybe he couldn't do better, then he comes back to you.
That's one possibility, but if he then gets a better offer, he's gonna leave again, right?
Let's say some hot 40-year-old comes along and says, I've got one last egg with your name on it, and I've just won the lottery, he'll be like, buh-bye, right?
Yeah.
Well, that's my fear.
Well, no, that's just one of the reasons, right?
Now, another reason could be that he needs your money.
Well, yeah.
He does work.
I mean, he does pay his bills.
I mean, we're not living together anymore, so... No, but why does he want you to come and live with him?
He's already living with other people.
You have to get up early.
The last time it didn't work out because he was selfish regarding your sleep, right?
I mean, so, for those who don't know, I mean, when you're young, you can get by on little sleep.
But when you get older, having a bad night's sleep means you have a bad day.
You can't just triple coffee it up and power your way through.
I mean, you survive.
But sleep quality, as you get older, becomes more and more important.
Also because, you know, you've got to get up to pee sometimes in the night, and it's just harder to get a good night's sleep as you age.
And sleep becomes like, you know, there's that old Seinfeld line where, you know, men will always trade sleep for sex.
And it's like, no, no, no, no.
Young men will always trade to sleep for sex.
When you get older, it's like, eh, you know, I could get 40 wings.
Would be good because-- So listen, I really sympathize with the sleep quality You've got to get up at 4.30.
If people are laughing and chortling and clinking beer bottles at midnight, well, that's halfway through your sleep.
And if you miss sleep, especially if you're frustrated, like if you get annoyed, it's really hard to get back to sleep.
Because then you're like, oh, he's being so inconsiderate.
I'm upset.
I've talked to him already.
I don't want to have another conflict.
And you lie there, churning and being upset.
And that further interferes with your sleep.
And then the other person becomes annoying.
Your work becomes more difficult.
Your performance suffers enormously.
Your quality of life suffers enormously.
Your sex life suffers enormously.
And, eventually, because sleep deprivation is kind of a form of torture, you have to get out so you don't strangle someone, or get fired.
So, tell me if I'm off base with this, but I really do understand the sleep quality issues.
I mean, these days I'm getting absolutely wonderful sleep, and have for a long time, and it just makes such a difference to the quality of your life.
Definitely.
So if he's not... So you're not off base.
Okay, so if he doesn't get that, or he doesn't listen to you about that, and he's an actor, right?
And so the idea that he may be more interested in himself than other people, that's not entirely unknown in the acting profession to be honest with you.
Well, and I know, and you know what?
He'll say that to me.
He says, I'm a selfish guy.
I always have been.
Like, it's like he excuses it by telling me that.
I say, well, whatever.
Okay, so you're selfish.
He's being very honest with you.
Well, I know, and I think it's great.
That's actually one of my attractions to him, is that he's extremely honest.
It's one of my attractions.
I don't have to wade through any bullshit.
He says it the way it is for him.
I don't believe that for a moment, that you're attracted because he's honest about how selfish he is.
Come on.
No, I mean, I appreciate that about him.
I think it's good that he's honest.
No, but if he's honest about being selfish, that's not why you're attracted to him.
The fact that he's honest about being selfish... Do you know why he can be honest about being selfish?
Because he's handsome.
If he was 300 pounds and bald and whatever, then him being honest about being selfish... He can be honest about being selfish because he's handsome.
Yeah, okay.
Thank you for saying that because I never, honest to God, I'm a very smart woman, but I don't think I'm so smart.
I didn't even think of that.
I did not even put that two and two together.
Well, it's like, I don't know, there's this young singer named Billie Eilish, right?
And first of all, she's a freak and a creep and I think halfway to Satan worship.
But anyway, so she has like really baggy clothing and she has like blue hair and she snarls at people and sneers at people and has this dead-eyed, I-I-lost-my-soul-in-a-poker-game kind of look half the time.
But she's physically, her voice is very pretty, her songwriting is very good, and her face is pretty, right?
I mean, she's a pretty girl, right?
So if you are Very talented.
You're a great singer and you have a nice physique and you have a very striking face.
Yeah, you can wear baggy clothing and dye your hair blue and people will still be attracted to you.
My concern is that other girls look at that and say, wow, I can wear baggy clothes and dye my hair blue and it'll be great, right?
It's like all those people you see when you go and get your glasses done, you know, all these pictures on the wall of all of these people, these incredibly perfect faces, and they have these glasses on, right?
And it's like, well, yeah, if you look like that you can wear a A card on your forehead and you're still going to look good, right?
I put a card on my forehead.
It doesn't quite work the same way.
So with regards to the world of the really good looking people, they live in a different world.
They live in a world where they can be this Peter Pan boy toy and still be 60 and still get away with it, right?
Yeah.
That's the danger of being good looking.
Being good looking is like inheriting a lot of money.
In that you can make all kinds of stupid mistakes, you can be immature, you can be selfish, you can be a failure in life, and you can still skate on your charm and your looks.
Being good looking for most people is a real curse.
For most people it is a real curse because it allows them to never grow up and allows them to get away with stupid stuff like saying, well, I'm just a selfish person.
I always have been, but let me show you my pearly whites and my chiseled jawline and you won't really care now, will you?
Because hell of a lot, right?
Right.
So you've got to picture him 100 pounds heavier or you've got to picture him not well or you've got to picture him missing some teeth or whatever, right?
With psoriasis, or whatever's going to make him less attractive to you.
You've got to picture him that way.
Because, again, to sort of go back to the Billie Eilish thing, so Billie Eilish writes these pretty songs about absolutely, like, she writes about cannibalism and murder and suicide.
Oh my God.
Like, she's just, like, I mean, the songs are pretty, but the lyrics are incredibly ugly, if not damn well evil.
And so, you know, pretty on the outside, corrupt on the inside.
That's not just the songs.
I think that is unfortunately the young lady herself.
How someone looks on the outside can give them massive excuses, you know, like, you know, this the equivalent for a woman, you've probably heard this phrase, you know, a hot mess.
She's a hot mess.
Or she's, what's that Ava Max song?
She's sweet, but she's psycho.
Right?
So if you're really pretty, you can be a mess and guys will still want to date you because you're hot, right?
So, you never have to deal with your shit.
You never have to grow up.
You never have to be responsible.
Because there's always a conveyor belt.
There's always someone who's going to come along who's going to be attracted to you for your looks and is going to overlook aspects of your personality because you're pretty or you're handsome, right?
Right.
Well, it's funny.
As you're talking, I'm thinking about my life growing up and it was all about responsibility for me.
This is the first time in my life, and being with him, that I actually, when I'm with him sometimes, I don't feel like I have to be that responsible.
Oh, but you will.
And maybe there's a bit of, you know, something that I'm getting out of it that way.
Well, that's possible, except you're still paying most of the bills.
He's being irresponsible and harming your sleep and thus your professional life, right?
He's being irresponsible with your heart in that he's basically saying, yeah, sorry, honey, I can do better.
And then he comes back and says, no, actually, it's you, right?
So he's jerking around your heart.
He's taking money from you to some degree.
He's interfering with your sleep.
So tell me how you're not just managing a kid sibling at this point.
Right.
Which is your expertise, right?
Right, you're right.
It is soul my expertise.
Yeah.
Good point.
Thank you.
I mean, has he ever had, or do you know, has he talked about that he has ever had any kind of significant tragedy in his life?
Yeah, his dad left his family when he was seven and he still Okay so how old was his daughter when he busted up with his wife?
for him and I don't think he's ever been able to let that go.
- Okay, so how old was his daughter when he busted up with his wife? - She was pretty young too.
I think she was probably around that age as well. - Huh, interesting.
Yeah.
My dad left the family when I was seven.
I left my family when my daughter was seven.
Which means he's learned nothing, right?
Yeah.
He's learned nothing.
He has two other kids, too, but they're with different women.
He never was with them, so... Wait.
What?
He has two other children that... No, no, I heard what you're saying!
What are you talking about?
Why are you bringing this up so late?
Well, I don't know.
Because you asked me when I told him You about his daughter.
I said you asked me where he's been successful.
So I said he raised him.
He has a lovely daughter.
Wait, he's been successful with his daughter even though he left the family.
I assume it was an affair or something when she was young.
Yeah, that's what you're calling his big success.
Okay, okay, Stephan.
You're right.
Now, tell me about... We don't have to get into details.
Yeah, because he's not on the call, right?
But what you're saying is that he has two other... Hang on.
He has two other children.
He has two other children by women, but he was never married to them or never with them?
Right.
What?
He's a... And he feels bad about that.
Well, that's nice.
What the hell does that do for the kids?
What's he doing for the kids?
Well, he has connection with them now, but I don't know.
They don't live with him or around him, so.
But did he contribute financially when they were growing up or did he spend time with them when they were growing up or just no contact at all?
Yes.
No, he spent time.
Well, with one of them, he did, because the other one doesn't live in the country.
But with one of them, he spent lots of time with them.
And he actually took him for a couple of years and looked after him for a few years when the mother couldn't.
He looked after him.
Why could the mother not?
She has her own problems.
So did he basically impregnate a crazy woman?
Maybe, yeah.
All right.
But he still talks to her today, so I don't know.
So why won't he put a ring on it for you?
Well, he always says, let's get married.
I want to get married.
I said I don't want to.
Oh, so he will marry you?
He says he wants to, but I doubt it, Stefan, because he's never actually got asked me.
He just says, let's get married.
And I just say, no, I just, I'm not, I don't need to get married again.
I've already been married twice.
Does he have any savings?
No.
Do you?
Yes.
Aha!
I have some.
I'm not wealthy, but I have some.
Because when my husband died, we had debt.
We had our own business and we had debt.
So I was still paying that off.
Well, no, you wouldn't want to be in the financial advice industry and not have any savings, right?
No, but I've only just started.
No, I just changed a career three years ago.
So I wasn't always in this industry, but I've learned lots.
But no, I'm okay and I'll be okay.
Okay.
So make the case for this guy.
Assuming he's like, let's say that he wakes up tomorrow and for some reason he's just not good looking anymore.
Whatever, right?
I don't know, right?
Right.
So make a case for this guy.
Or charming.
If he's not good looking.
Well, no, because the charm might just be related to the looks, right?
You know, it's like, I've said this before, it's like those, you know, there's that book, The Secret.
You know, if you ask the universe for things, the universe will just provide things for you.
It's magical.
And then you look at the authors, right?
You look at the picture of the authors and they're always like really, really attractive people.
Right, so it's like, you know, the woman who's a ten, right, who just says, oh, everyone is so nice to me!
You know, I mean, everyone's so considerate, they're thoughtful, you know, guys let me park in their parking spot, they buy me drinks, you know, everyone is so nice to me!
I live in a world where everyone, and it's just like, you can't be that stupid, right?
It's like that scene in Liar Liar where Jim Carrey gets into the elevator with the woman and she's just like, everyone's so nice to me, and he's like, yeah, because you got giant, and then she slaps him, right?
So it's like this, the secret, you know?
Like, if you just ask the universe for things, the universe will provide.
It's like, yeah, we get it.
We get it.
Men have hormones and women have holes.
Ooh, it's magic, you know?
It's the, um...
It's the religion of the vajayjay, right?
I mean, it's the cult of the coos.
It's really sad when women think that they've achieved something really remarkable and practical by being in possession of a vagina in a sea of male hormones.
Whoa!
You're a productive genius because Mother Nature has programmed men to orbit you.
I mean, ooh, wow, you must be really, really proud of the fact that It's like the dog in heat.
Yeah, like, you know, oh, men get dick-napped all the time and you just consider yourself to be some kind of productive genius and oh, anyway, it's all nonsense, right?
Yeah.
So, some of his charm... So, you know... Yeah, go ahead.
I was just going to say, so I know I can't reproduce anymore.
I can't offer that anymore to the world.
I just want to plan my life.
I want to be with someone.
I don't want to grow old alone.
And I would like to have a relationship with somebody I can plan My life with, like I would have done with my husband had he not died.
And again, I'm really sorry for your husband and his death, of course, but what empirical evidence that you have that this guy is stable and committed enough to you that you can trust that?
I don't actually, Stephan.
Well, it's a bit more the other way, isn't it?
You have direct evidence that he's not.
Right.
Right?
I mean, he's not had a successful relationship.
He's dated and impregnated at least one crazy woman that we know of.
He also impregnated a woman in another country, which is ferociously irresponsible, right?
And he broke up with you.
He's a self-admitted selfish person.
And he says, I'm just that way.
Not like, oh, I have this huge problem with selfishness.
I'm working really hard.
He's just like, hey man, take me for who I am.
You know, like I've got a great jawline, so I don't have to be responsible, right?
And so he's had women chasing him, right?
Like female dogs in heat, so to speak.
He's had women chasing him his whole life.
And he will continue to have women chasing him until he gets too old to walk up the stairs unaided, right?
Right.
And he's not committed to any woman in any particular kind of way.
I mean, he's had affairs.
His wife's had affairs.
He didn't stay with the crazy woman.
He impregnated a woman in another country.
He broke up with you.
He's probably still got dating profiles, but he needs money, right?
Dating profiles don't generate any money, right?
And he needs income because he's an actor.
He's got no savings.
He works intermittently.
And so my concern would be, okay, what's he with you for?
If it was your virtues, then he wouldn't have left, because they haven't changed, right?
Right.
Absolutely not.
You've had a successful relationship, you know?
I mean, if your husband hadn't died, you'd still be together, right?
So what's he with you for?
It's not the virtue... Look, I'm not saying, like, why on earth would he be with you, right?
You sound like an intelligent and self-aware and verbally acute and great conversationalist and honest and lots of reasons for a good man to be with you.
Why is this guy with you?
I mean, you have a capacity for a deeper level of attachment than he does, right?
So why is he with you?
It's not because you share all these values.
Right.
So.
Now, there's a way to find out if you want.
Yeah, just ask him.
All right.
No, no, no.
Can't ask him.
Good lord.
I don't think so.
He's already said he's selfish.
So when people say that they're selfish, they're basically saying to you, I will lie to you to get what I want.
My needs really matter and your needs only matter insofar as they serve my needs.
Your needs that exist independent of my needs, eh, you know, nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there, right?
That's what people who are selfish are telling you.
So the concern would be, I suppose, that he's here for the material resources, the savings, the income, the stable Money that you can provide, right?
That you can wallpaper over the cracks in his income.
So the way to find that out is saying, okay, like I'm willing to be with you, as you say, I'm not going to move in.
But you got to pay, you know, we're both adults, we're both north of a certain age.
And so you got to pay 50-50, right?
Like you're never going to get your hands on my savings.
Even if we get married, I'm going to put him in a trust.
You're never getting a penny of my savings and you need to contribute 50-50 because we're not raising kids.
I'm not raising your kids.
I'm not running your household.
You're not running mine.
We're both adults on the verge of seniorhood and so you got to pay your own freight, right?
If we live together, you got to pay half the bills and you got to do it on a regular basis.
I'm not advancing you money.
I'm not lending you money.
You're never getting your hands on my savings.
That's the way things are going to be.
Now, if he has no interest in your money, he'd be like, yeah, where do I sign?
I mean, that's totally fine with me, right?
Now, if he has interest in your money, but he believes that he can charm you into giving him some of your money, then he'll say, oh yeah, that's no problem, right?
And then at some point he'd be like, oh, I'm going to get this residual check like next week.
I just need to cover and cover, right?
There'll just be little bits here and there, and they'll start off reasonable, and they'll escalate.
Right.
Okay.
Why would you want to be with someone who confesses that he's selfish and has no intention of changing, and that's how he's always been?
Okay.
I don't know.
I must be getting something out of it, Stefan.
He's hot.
Yeah.
No, and this is comforting for men to know that it also happens to women, right?
Yeah.
That's true.
In general, though not always, I think my wife is very, very attractive, but in general, though not always, hot comes with a premium that nobody wants to pay in the long run.
I thought I was hot.
I guess not.
Well, no, I mean, so, I mean, deep down, if you sort of look on the one to ten scale, where do you guys sit relative to each other?
Well I think we're a really nice looking couple.
And would you say that you're both equal in terms of levels of attractiveness?
He's probably a little bit more attractive than I am.
What numbers are we talking?
What spread?
Well he's probably a 9 or a 10 and I'm probably a 7 or an 8.
Right.
So if there's the gap there, now if he was really into virtues not looks, then That would be fine, right?
Because you may be bringing a little bit more maturity and so on, but if he's not, if it needs to balance out, as it often does in people's relationships, then the question is, what do you have to bring extra to make up for the one to two point difference in physical attractiveness?
And my guess is that you've got to bring the money.
And maybe some usefulness, because I'm really competent and I'm very stable.
Yeah.
And I'm quite resourceful and I'm quite useful.
So, yeah, I mean, if I were in your... Sorry, go ahead.
No, I just said, hence why I said, I fell in love, this practical girl fell in love, like I just fell head over heels.
It's not love.
I'm so practical.
No, come on, it's not love.
No, I know.
No, you call it love, that's an insult to the word love, right?
And I'm not saying there's nothing good about this guy.
I'm sure he's a great deal of fun.
I'm sure he's funny.
I'm sure he's energetic.
I'm sure he's got a lot of charm because, you know, that's kind of the shadow cast by the good looks, right?
People who are good looking can get away with stuff that normal looking people just can't.
There's some video, I can barely remember it, but it was on YouTube and it was some guy who comes up who's really all kinds of confident, you know, and he just comes up and he starts talking to these women in the bar and they're like really struck by it and they're like, wow, he's really confident, right?
And then some average-looking guy comes up and does exactly the same thing and they're like, whoa, that's a creepy guy.
Who the hell does he think he is, right?
Right.
Ah, it's weird.
It's weird.
Yeah, so, you know, it's like the Anthony Robbins situation, you know.
Yeah, if you're seven foot tall with giant tombstone teeth, a full head of hair and you're built like a totem pole carved by Mr. Universe, yeah, you know, you can get away with a lot of stuff and you can be really powerful.
And, you know, the guy does interesting work and I don't begrudge him any of his success, of course, right?
But the visuals have something to do with it as well.
There's a reason why he looks very different from the guy who runs the show.
So, I would say that...
Sit down, have a conversation with him.
Maybe, you know, it's late in the day to be rescuing people, especially because you were a caregiver when you were younger, but does he want to grow up?
That would sort of be my question.
You know, you can sit down and say, look, let's just have an honest conversation.
You've been skating on your looks for years.
Which is why you've had affairs, it's why you're in a profession which looks is really really important to, it's why you have this weird frat boy lifestyle where you still have roommates when you're 60, I mean come on, right?
You have no savings, you have no job skills in particular and you can't commit, like you're living this kind of Teenage life so to speak and I'm not gonna be your mommy.
I'm like I'm not gonna be Auntie me who picks up all of your carelessness, right like this Right this carelessness that is is is talked about right in in it's it's a good book for you to reread probably is The Great Gatsby, right?
It's this great line.
I'm paraphrasing.
There's a great line where they say, you know, they're just careless people and they smash people up And other people can spend the rest of their lives picking up the pieces of what these careless people just smash up when they go coasting through life and, you know, like you ran into this guy, he charmed you, he got you, he won you, he took you for resources, he dumped you, now he's back.
And that's a careless way to deal with a woman's heart because he also knows, he also knows, I assume, How much heartache and heartbreak you've been through in your life.
Now when you're vulnerable with people and you say to them, this is what hurt me in the past, they have a pretty big goddamn responsibility to not do that shit in the present.
Right.
Right.
So if you say, I've been hurt by people in the past, I've been left by men, now the men happen to be taken by death.
But that still leaves a huge hole in your heart, and so abandonment or being rejected or losing a man is probably one of your biggest pains.
And therefore, if he knows that, it doesn't mean he's got to stay with you because the past hurt you or anything like that, but it means that he knows that if he leaves you, Because he... and also, you know, being 60, sexual market value is a challenge, more so for women than it is for men.
So if he leaves you saying, I can do better, there are prettier, hotter, younger women out there for me, he's doing a one-two punch to your greatest vulnerabilities, being left and getting older.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's the... when you're vulnerable with people, you're trusting them with What hurts you the most?
Hey, here's the big pain button in me.
Here's the big giant pain button in me.
Now that you know where it is, you are totally responsible if you hit that pain button.
Right.
Vulnerability creates a high moral responsibility to avoid doing whatever it is that's the worst thing for you, right?
Like your room 101, the head full of rats.
And you know what's really interesting is you bring up about the vulnerability.
I don't think I've ever allowed myself to be as vulnerable as I have been in this relationship.
Right.
And I have shared everything with him, and all my hurts and feelings and whatever, and I don't think I've ever allowed myself to be that vulnerable.
Right.
Which, for me, has been a liberating experience, in a sense.
Yeah, yeah, because now your worst fears came true.
Because I've always been the grown-up, the rock, the grown-up, you know, raised my kids on my own for years, and just worked really hard, and didn't ever let down or let anybody know that I was really hurting.
He's the first one I've probably ever done that with.
Right.
In that much.
And this could have been part of a self-healing mechanism, which is to say, I'm going to trust a selfish guy with my greatest fears.
He's going to act on those greatest fears and fulfill them, and I'm fine.
Which means that the fears get smaller, right?
Yeah.
So he could be part of a healing and opening mechanism.
Sometimes the people we date are gateways to better people.
I mean, I guess he thought that with you, but this could be for real with him, right?
Insofar as, if this isn't the guy for you, then you get to the next guy and you can be vulnerable with him knowing that you can survive your worst fears becoming manifest, right?
Right.
Good point.
So I would sit down with him and say, look, you've You've kind of lived this frat boy life and you have been irresponsible.
You've been irresponsible with your kids.
You were irresponsible with your marriage.
You've been irresponsible with me.
Now you have a choice.
And I would say to him, like you have a choice.
You can continue to skate by on something you didn't earn.
Like the fact that you're good looking.
It's actually funny.
I was just having this conversation with my daughter today because we were talking about what you can be proud of, right?
And she said, well, aren't you proud of being intelligent?
And I said, no.
I'm proud of my courage.
I'm proud of my honesty.
I'm proud of my directness.
I'm proud of the good work that I've done in the world because those things are choices, right?
But I'm not proud of being intelligent because I didn't earn that.
That's like some guy saying, uh, I'm really proud of being tall.
It's like, come on, you didn't earn that.
It's just the way you were born that way.
So, you know, I would say to him, look, you, you have inherited this thing, which has given you Some ease in life but it's made you lazy and it's kept you selfish and it's kept you immature.
At the age of 60 you should not be confused when someone who has to get up early needs quiet to go to bed.
This should not be a big problem.
This is not something you can't process at this age.
It's not that complicated.
Yeah, this is not like I need you to figure out, you know, how to cross-stitch up my wound or something in the jungle using a bee's wing.
I mean, this is like, hey, I need to get up early, need to go to bed early, need quiet to sleep, right?
So, you know, I would say, look, and you have this fork in the road.
I say to people in these calls, not you, but other people I've said before, it's like, this is a conversation that's not likely to happen again in your lifetime, right?
I mean, where someone's going to sit down and listen and not run an agenda and really try to give you some decent advice or feedback or whatever, right?
But I would sit there and say, listen, I'm the person, right, you listen to Steph's show and he'll listen to this show too, and you could say, look, I'm the person who may have bungeed into your life to wake you the hell up and to get you to grow the hell up and stop skating by on your looks, which you did not earn.
Now, he might say, well, yes, but I do my sit-ups.
And it's like, yeah, but you do your sit-ups because you're already good looking.
Right.
You know, Emily, she eats apparently like one earwig a month because she gets paid enormously for having a flat stomach.
Ryan Gosling looks like he's carved out of Ken Doll fantasies of pre-bubescent boys because if he does that many sit-ups and eats apparently one carb a year he can look that way like he's photoshopped and he gets rolls and like you know so the fact people say well I earn it because I work out it's like yeah but there's lots of people who work out who don't look like you so the fact that you work out to enhance What you accidentally inherited through genetics is not really much of a virtue, because you're doing it as part of vanity.
You're not doing it because of health or whatever, right?
So you were given this gift, which is also kind of a curse.
It's a gift because it makes your life easy, but it's a curse because you never have to grow up.
So maybe, just maybe, I bunch it into your life so that I could get you to grow up, so that you could spend the 20 years you have left in this life Not being a shallow idiot.
Not being a selfish douchebag who just is always out there roaming around looking for something better, breaking up with people, making up with people, moving in with your best friend, not letting your girlfriend sleep, breaking up with your best friend, moving in with other people.
Like is that... you got 20 years left!
You've already done...
60 years of being like this, you got another 20-25 years left, so maybe I'm in here to make the last quarter century of your life not a shallow frat boy cliche of absent responsibility, right?
Maybe I'm here to help you actually get some savings.
Maybe I'm here to actually enrich and deepen your existence so that it's a little bit more than skin deep, right?
I mean, maybe, right?
Or you can say, no, you know, I'm going to continue to milk my fading looks because, you know, It's bad enough when you're 60, it ain't gonna work when you're 70.
You know, unless you're Blake Carrington, which you ain't and you don't have that much money anyway.
So at some point you're going to get decrepit, right?
Something Scott Adams said about Hillary Clinton.
It's like she's in her 70s.
She's got health issues, right?
She's got health issues, right?
So you're going to be 70 and you're going to have health issues, you're going to be lower in energy, it's going to be a little bit more tough to raise the charm above your flapping dewlap of a formerly square jaw or something like that, right?
So you're gonna, and a woman's gonna look at you and say, yeah, if I squint I could see that maybe you were good looking 10 years ago, but right now you come with a whole lot of hospital visits and maybe a colostomy bag, so I'm afraid that the insouciant Byronic charm ain't working for me the way it might have 10 years ago.
So that's the fate that you're heading towards, you know, and if you don't like 70, how about 75?
How about 80?
At some point you ain't gonna be turned the trick anymore and the God's gift To GQ that you inherited isn't going to turn the trick anymore.
And then you're really going to be alone.
And that's, you know, maybe I'm here to help avert that fate from you.
If, if you want, like, if you want to say, Oh, I'm selfish.
Like, why the hell would you be satisfied with just being selfish?
Okay.
You can get away with it because you're good looking, but those looks are going to fade.
And maybe, you know, you listen to staff, you listen to a philosophy show, maybe just, maybe you should have a bit of a deeper and richer and, and more consequential and more adult and more responsible and wiser.
Just looks and wisdom are like the opposite poles a lot of time of the human experience because wisdom comes from suffering and from loss and from pain and if you're really good looking you can just hop, skip and a jump from one lily pad of a dependent person to another lily pad of a person who values you for your high status and your capacity to act as white-haired iron candy or something, right?
I would say, sit down with him and say, look, do you want to stop being selfish?
Do you want to grow up?
Do you want to have something a bit more, you know, we can have a quarter century together, we could grow old together, and we could be united by our shared virtues and values.
Or you can try and milk this for another couple years until even the middle-aged women look at you and say, I'm sorry grandpa, mummy don't deliver meals on wheels, right?
Maybe you're there to help him grow up, and he has that choice, right?
And if he doesn't want to take that choice, or if he wants to take the bad side of that choice and just keep skating on his looks, then, you know, you can do whatever you want, but I think it's pretty clear what I would do.
Yeah.
Thanks, Stefan.
I did want to say one more thing.
Thank you so much for everything and making me laugh, because you're quite funny.
Well, it seems only fair.
I started this show in a car.
So I might as well do this convo with you in a car.
So all right, go ahead.
But you're quite funny.
But it's, you know, you're, you have lots of good things to say.
And thank you for taking the time out.
And I just want to say you can tell your daughter to that one of your one of the things that you have is a lot of integrity.
I've listened to your shows and you have a lot of integrity.
Thank you.
And that's a virtue.
Yeah.
And listen, if your boy toy, I can't really call him boyfriend.
If your boy toy wants to call in, I'll be happy to chat with him too.
Okay, that's great.
I'm sure he'll want to now that I have.
All right.
Will you keep me posted about how things go?
I will.
Thank you, Stefan.
Thanks very much.
Take care.
Have a good day.
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