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May 18, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:28:19
"How Do I Stop Banging Asian Women?" Freedomain Call In
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Tell me about the life which I might envy in passing, but which we will dismantle in the present.
Oh, yes.
Okay.
So, where should I start?
Should I start from university?
Should I start from currently?
University?
It's like we don't do deep dives in this show anymore?
No!
Give me a childhood, brother.
Okay.
Well, my family situation.
So, I took the ACE test.
Earlier today, and I got an A. Sorry, just for those who don't know, you had Adverse Childhood Experience Test.
That's a test you could find online designed to, I mean, I don't agree with all of it, but it's not a bad place to start in terms of figuring out things that may have gone awry in your childhood.
Yeah, and I got a score of 3 or 4.
Could be worse, could be worse, could be better.
Exactly.
The main part was centered on Okay, put it this way, Stefan.
neglect.
There was one question on whether a sibling had had depression.
And yeah, some physical contact was used.
So like when I was a young kid, yeah, my parents did occasionally sort of smack me.
Let's just pick it up from, I guess, post high school.
Okay, put it this way, Stefan.
I have been outside of the UK for seven years.
I have not seen my family in seven years.
I have not spoken to my mother once in that time.
I have not had a message passed on from my mother in that time.
I also haven't spoken to my sister in about 15 years.
I have sent fleeting emails to my father back and forth every three months.
Typically surface-level conversation about football and things, so I think that highlights some serious issue with emotional availability and connection.
What are your thoughts about all that?
I think part of me is perhaps living outside of the UK as a rebellion, perhaps, though I do like being here a lot.
You're in Thailand, is that right?
I'm in Thailand, yes.
I've been in Thailand for five years now.
And just out of curiosity, I mean, did you just get to move there or is it a lot of paperwork or what?
You know, it's interesting because they have a fairly rigorous immigration system.
You have to really send in a wad of documents every year.
You know, it's quite nice to have some rigorous checks.
Unlike the UK, yeah, got it.
Yeah, exactly.
But no, if you want to work here and you're providing value, they'll let you stay.
Interesting.
Yeah.
All right.
All right.
OK, so what were you doing?
You said you've been there five years, seven years out of the UK.
Was that right?
So where were you the first year?
OK, so I left university and about one month later, I took a job to teach English in South Korea.
And at that time, I didn't really care about income level.
I wasn't thinking of that rebellious sort of 21-year-old.
I'm going to plug out of the matrix.
I went to South Korea for a year.
My plan was to jump countries every year and see the world.
A year later, I jumped to Taipei.
A year later, after that, I jumped to Thailand.
I really liked Thailand and decided to stay.
What did you think of the show?
I enjoyed it.
sort of, I guess, the English teaching that you did in South Korea first, was it a tough adjustment?
Did you enjoy it?
How was it?
I enjoyed it.
I was really happy that I was getting paid to do something I enjoyed.
I had had a engineering scholarship whilst at university where I did summer placements, and it was utterly miserable.
So, Oh no!
Really?
Yeah!
Oh man!
Were you shocked?
I mean, it's engineering, I don't mean to say.
Like, I love computer science, so that side of engineering I really like.
The physical stuff, though, would make me glaze over in a heartbeat.
Well, I studied civil engineering, and I had this grand idea that I'd travel the world building society.
Like, Age of Empires.
However, it looked like the DMV.
We were in this grey office and I was designing drainage coverings.
Drainage coverings.
But they sound necessary to civilization, it's not exactly Havard Rock.
Right.
Okay.
Yeah.
Got it.
Alright.
Interesting.
So, do you work in the engineering field at all or is it mostly teaching or something else?
Right now, I am a maths teacher at a pretty good school in Bangkok.
Right.
And have you become fluent?
In Thai?
Mmm.
My Thai is... Actually, I just wanted to hear you say my Thai.
That's all.
My Thai.
Yeah, how's it coming?
Because I mean, some people have a great facility.
Well, my way of learning a language is very mathematical and depends a lot on weird visualization of words and a lot of repetition.
So I get through it the sort of boring stuffy engineering way.
buy it very easily.
I have that with computer languages, but they all follow the same kind of logical structure.
But how are you with foreign languages?
Well, my way of learning a language is very mathematical and depends a lot on weird visualization of words and a lot of repetition.
So I get through it the sort of boring stuffy engineering way.
I'm not really a creative type of languages.
Right.
OK.
OK.
Interesting.
All right.
So what has your life been like for five years?
I mean, is it sort of the same year over and over again or is it does it grow?
Does it change?
Does it progress?
What's it seems a bit Groundhog Day to me from the vast outside of it.
But what's it like for you?
Yeah, to some extent it is every day is exactly the same.
There have been there has been some growth, some progress.
Like I really got into the gym.
Two years ago, I kicked alcohol to the curb.
Basically, one year ago, I don't have any impulses to drink anymore.
Oh, good for you.
Yeah, there's been some development.
But yeah, it feels like Groundhog Day.
The thing about living in Bangkok is it's extremely comfortable.
It's extremely convenient.
And you're given all these hygiene factors.
But sometimes I feel like, yeah, I'm not really moving forward.
Given all these hygiene factors, what the hell does that mean?
I don't know, you get leeches?
Like, what are you talking about?
Well, how do I explain it?
OK, in Britain, when it's seven o'clock and you're not in London and you want food, tough.
Unless you want to drive four miles to a Tesco.
In which case, still tough.
But yeah, OK.
Yeah.
In Bangkok, whatever you want, whenever you want it, it's there.
It's such a convenient place to live.
It's tropical.
It's, OK, the way I describe Thailand is it's like a country with no natural predators.
Huh.
So the left has yet to take its hold.
All right.
Oh, man.
Oh, that is a conversation.
Luckily, my students are pretty based.
They agree with me, surprisingly.
Oh, no.
Like East Asians?
Yeah, no, they're very based.
They have no qualms, no political correctness, particularly regarding human biodiversity and so on.
They're down for the count as a whole.
And no shame, no anxiety, no nervousness, no fear and all that.
Yeah, it's pretty wild that way.
Oh man, they hate it more than I do.
I remember my first year at this school, they asked me Like about Brexit, was I remain or leave?
And I very timidly said, you're not going to like my answer, but I wanted to leave.
And then they all cheered.
Yeah.
I was like, I was like, what?
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, they, as far as my, my conversation with these Asians go is that they're like, They simply cannot fathom what the hell the West is doing.
They simply cannot fathom it in any way, shape or form.
It's one thing to have, you know, I guess Chairman Mao, different country and all, but Chairman Mao pointing a gun at you and saying collectivise or else, but this voluntary shit?
It's incomprehensible to a lot of people.
There's one student who is like something out of 1920s Britain.
They have a non-uniform day.
He comes in like a three-piece suit.
I had a conversation with him for two hours, and it is just an outsider looking in, just picking apart how much of a joke the West is at the moment.
Well, a joke has a funny ending.
Not sure that we're going to achieve that.
Well, there's no way to achieve anything other than relatively different degrees of grimness regarding how this plays out.
So, five years.
It's very convenient.
You're decently paid and you get the foreign guy exoticness.
You get to sleep around and stuff like that, right?
Yep.
And what's the dating like where you are in Bangkok?
Yeah, well, it's not hard.
Let me say that.
There's lots of options.
If you're a well put together, clean looking Well, is there white guy advantage too?
I'd say there is, but if you want to date like the good Bangkok girls, you need a lot more than just being simply white.
Right, right, right.
Now, but the dating – if you're dating the Bangkok girls, and by that I mean, of course, the locals, right, the natives.
Yeah.
And it's so strange to think of a country where you could just say the Thai people and everyone knows exactly what you're talking about because, again, with this sort of mystery meet Western demographics, nobody knows what the hell, you know, someone from from England is these days.
But if you want to date the local Thai girls, then is it almost by definition it's a fling?
I mean, is there any real possibility for building something more permanent?
There's a possibility, yes.
But it's interesting, because Thailand typically tops polls on infidelity.
They have a serious gic culture.
What gic means is like your plaything.
And it's really embedded into the culture.
Sorry, when you say your plaything, that may be a clarification for you, but it's not for me.
Okay.
Like, gic means the person you have a one-night stand with, not the person you're gonna marry.
And it's really, it's quite open.
Thailand's a very confusing hodgepodge of conservatism and then some strange areas where they're like ultra liberal.
Well, they're woke and then they have, of course, a lot of female rights slash privileges, which generally tends to lead to promiscuity.
Yeah.
All right.
So how many women have you slept with since you got to Thailand?
On average?
We're talking 40, 50.
Right.
And have any of them been in the realm of girlfriend, or is it basically just a one night stand?
A couple of them have been in the realm of girlfriend, yes.
One in particular, about three years ago, yes.
And what happened with that?
Okay, I dated her for Six weeks, which in my terms... Yeah, well, sadly that... Dude, slow down!
What, do you have grandkids already?
Holy... Okay, three weeks, go on.
Six weeks, sorry, six weeks, yeah.
Six weeks, and that was the third longest relationship I've had in my life, so that's a red flag, and I ended it.
And why?
Right.
Now, the reason I ended it was for really shallow reasons.
You know, things like I want to keep my freedom, which I'm sure you've heard before.
Well, you basically want to sleep with new women, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Big part of it.
Yeah.
Other things as well.
I feel as a person, I'm like a massive introvert and I do like being alone a lot.
So there was that as well.
The idea of Well, it's... I don't know, when do you want... I mean, I'm still doing the information gathering phase.
I'm not sure when you want to start getting feedback or not.
Fair enough.
No, so do you want feedback now or later?
Do you want more information?
Then you can give me hard on the feedback.
All right, let's get some more information.
Okay, so you consider yourself an introvert?
Yes.
Oh, that was the end of that part?
Oh, okay.
Well, the reason I... You want me to go into more about why I broke up with her?
More of the reasons why.
OK, other things, you know, I mean, it's pathetic, but, you know, like sharing a bed.
Yeah.
Fair enough.
A big part of it was I wanted to keep sleeping around, enjoying the, yeah, the promiscuous, hedonistic life.
That's a big part of it.
Right.
Right.
OK.
Yeah.
And did you feel at all any significant affection for this six week Miracle Marathon or was it more like, yeah, nice girl, but bored?
Oh, I felt a lot of affection.
It was very hard to break up with her because she ticked a lot of boxes as a girl that I could make it serious with.
Like what?
Oh, she was from a very good family.
Very good family.
She was very intelligent.
She was good looking.
She was very understanding of how much of an introvert I was.
And was she Thai?
Yes.
Right.
OK.
And were you tempted to keep going or?
Oh, yeah.
Well, it was a big dilemma.
I asked friends about it.
You know, I remember some of the language I was using was I found the perfect woman if only I could put her on ice for 10 years.
It's very thoughtful of you.
Welcome to my cryogenic chamber.
This might be a bit chilly.
So basically you were just in hot pursuit of other vaginas, right?
Yeah, mostly.
And did she know that about you, that you were a player slash, I don't know, man-whore?
What do you call it these days?
Did she know that you were a player when she first started dating you?
Yes.
And did she think that you were going to change for her or what was the what was the thought there, do you think?
Weirdly, I think it kind of made her attracted.
I don't know.
It's really weird because she's from a really good family and she had a lot of propositions from guys in really good income brackets, really good.
And I was I mean, at that time, I was actually just an English teacher still.
on a very modest salary in comparison.
So I kind of feel like me being bad weirdly attracted her for some reason.
Well yeah, I know.
I mean, so the fantasy for the male is that you find some absolutely hot woman who doesn't know she's hot you know like the old cliche of she's in the library she's wearing glasses you know her hair is in a bun but when she drops it down all right and so that's sort of one fantasy it's sort of a beta fantasy but it is a fantasy but um and and it's it is a fantasy because women know exactly how attractive they are there's no there's no no doubt about all of that
but the the fantasy for for for women is that she tames the bad boy right that's That's the big, right?
The bad boy that all the other women want, she rides in and she tames and I mean this is, you know, Beauty and the Beast and like the bad boy just gets tamed and she civilizes him and he... Because it's a measure of her sexual power.
If she can get you to give up other vaginas, then her sexual power is paramount, so to speak, right?
But the problem is, of course, once you're tamed, Then what?
Once you're tamed, she's going to look for another bad boy to tame.
That's usually the cycle, right?
We all think that the bad, repetitive behavior is just going to end with the next relationship, but they generally tend to only accelerate.
So you did break up with her, and do you still see her around, or do you have any contact with her?
No.
I think one of my personality flaws is I can be really abrupt, really Sort of decisive at cutting people off.
I really cut her off quick.
Yeah.
I kind of get that with the family story there, brother.
Haven't seen your family in seven years or whatever, right?
Yep.
And I tell you, I mean, okay, no, no, let's go.
So more information.
And what were you making?
If you give rough US dollars or Canadian dollars, what were you making as a teacher in Bangkok?
Okay.
So during that period when I taught English, we're talking about a thousand odd pounds a month now.
That wouldn't be much in Britain, but that was comfortably middle class in Bangkok.
Nowadays, I'm earning double that.
What are you paying for an apartment in Bangkok?
Oh, it costs nothing here.
We're talking like £200 a month.
You've got a condo with a pool.
Now, haven't they been made aware of just how much the value of real estate could go up if they allowed just about everyone from the world to come into their country and drive?
I mean, I thought East Asians were good at math, for heaven's sake, for breaking all my stereotypes.
It's like a glimpse into an alternate future, you know, where we get to We get to go to the moon and vacation on Mars and live for 200 pounds a month instead of where we are.
But anyway, all right.
That's a topic for another time when I don't want to break my heart too much.
So, um, okay.
So how long ago was the, I guess you could call it relationship with the Golden Girls?
Yep.
That was three years ago.
And nothing has come close ever since?
No.
So do you have any regrets regarding that?
I'd say yes.
I think my very shallow decisions have possibly prevented me from pursuing a life where, if I took a time machine into the future down that path, perhaps there could have been a nice latter life.
And my selfish reasons, my shallow reasons, and how I was, yeah, caused a problem there.
And my inability to sort of connect Healthily, emotionally.
Right, right.
Yeah, I mean, the substitute for intimacy and connection is variety and stimulation.
That's what we get, right?
If you can't ever find anything at the buffet that really satisfies you, you keep going to the buffet, right?
If you have a great meal, then you're done.
So, I kind of get where you're coming from.
So, let's talk about what was in the email that prompted you to call me.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I've been having, well, I've had some realizations of my own mortality.
And another thing in Thailand, obviously, you know, the reputation of Thailand, it can attract some, some real low of the low, uh, older foreigners and.
Oh yeah.
Like the lady boy pursued creep guys, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And, uh, so, Basically, these people are walking cautionary tales.
You see these washed up 65 year olds sat there with a glass of beer at 9 a.m.
looking miserable, lonely, without children.
And I think recently I've internalized that if I don't seriously start planning from the latter part of my life, I'm going to be that miserable old loser.
Yeah, Hugh Grant sort of comes to mind.
Not so much the guy, I don't know much about the guy, but the characters he plays.
What is it in Notting Hill where he talks about being terrified of ending up middle-aged, stuck in an apartment with a masturbating Welshman?
There's another one, I think it's Bridget Jones, where he talks about being in his late 40s in a seedy bar with a seedy blonde and there's no real future, there's nothing to build.
And yeah, those guys... I knew a guy.
Oh, Lord!
I knew a guy who was mocked.
I won't even say where.
He was mocked because he basically ordered a bride from... I think it was Thailand or Cambodia or something like that.
And it was just grim.
I mean, of course, you know, everybody knew he was an old, ugly guy.
I mean, he had money and all that, but, you know, she was only coming over to get citizenship.
And all that, and nothing but contempt.
Yeah, you know, what's fun in your 20s?
We all know that dot dot dot, right?
It's one thing in your 20s, and it's quite another thing in your 50s.
And it's not only not the same thing, it's like the exact opposite, right?
Yeah.
Because by then, you know, it's sort of like Velcro, you know?
Like there's a certain amount of, you can do Velcro for a while, and after a while the hooks just stop working and nothing sticks together anymore.
And that's kind of like our capacity to bond, right?
I mean, I think men have more of a capacity to sort of stick and break.
But for women, it's particularly terrible, right?
Absolutely.
Right.
Yeah.
That's very similar.
Are you aware of a man called Roosh V?
Yes.
Mr. Beard.
Yeah.
I mean, this guy's one of my favorites.
Now, he did a very good article recently, very similar to that analogy where he talked about bonding glue.
And how, yeah, all this casual sex, it just diminishes your ability to bond with, to pair bond with another human being over time.
Yeah.
And it goes and goes and goes.
And it's just spot on.
It's an addiction, right?
I mean, one of the things that characterizes addictive behavior is diminishment of sensation combined with increase in intake combined with loss of sensation per increase, right?
So, you know, if you get addicted to cocaine, you need to take more and more to get less and less.
of a high, and I think that the same thing is true with promiscuity.
The difference being that society doesn't expect to pay for coke addicts, but everybody pays for the costs of STDs and unwanted pregnancies and all abortions.
Society is forced to pay for the offshoots of sex addiction.
But of course, as I said before, it's the R versus K thing that society will sell you sexual access in return.
for your property rights and freedoms.
And K people don't like it, but R people do.
And I guess you had sort of this R destination.
I'm sorry for those who don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but you could just go watch Gene Wars, G-E-N-E Wars, and you can get more about that.
But you sort of have an R predilection, probably coming from a lack of bonding as a child.
And the K part of you is poking through, and you're like looking down the tunnel of time rather than the tunnel of So, three, four years ago, I was considering getting a vasectomy, and I was adamant I didn't want kids.
to a good place, right?
Yes.
And kids, you were saying that you've thought of that, right?
Okay.
So three, four years ago, I was considering getting a vasectomy.
Right.
And I was adamant I didn't want kids.
I would enter the elevator and there'd be a kid there.
And for that 30-second journey, I would be like angrier.
Oh my God, there's a kid around.
That's so annoying.
Oh my God, dude.
Yeah.
Holy child, isn't that man?
All right.
All right.
Yeah, man.
I do think alcohol might have had an element in that.
I noticed when I was drinking a lot, I would continually get anxiety at night.
My emotions were not stable and it is night and day that difference kicking alcohol out.
So maybe that played a part in it.
It's funny, just by the by, every now and then I like to completely monopolize and utilize conversations to get inconsequential thoughts out of my head.
You used the word adamant, and I just realized, this is before your time, but there was a pop rock or glam rock performer in the 80s called Adam Ant in England, and did the devil take your stereo and your record collection?
But it just struck me the other day, Adam Ant.
I just thought it was like Adam Ant.
And it's like, no, he means adamant.
Anyway, just wanted to point that out.
Okay.
So let's go on with your bit and ignore my completely useless aside.
All right.
So you were annoyed by children when you were drinking.
And of course, if you're a drinker, kids are hell.
Because, you know, they're up early.
They want to play.
You've got a hangover.
You know, they want attention and you're drinking.
I mean, alcoholism and parenthood are like, The antithesis of each other.
Yeah, I mean, maybe I've just got to smash those things together.
But yeah, when I was drinking a lot, I know my emotions would fluctuate up and down and up and down.
I'm a much more stable person for the past two years where I've been working out and I've not been drinking much.
So I just think that had a relation.
Also, I think my stance towards kids is in the process of changing.
But yeah.
What's been changing it, do you think?
Well, a number of things.
One of them quite recently, actually, was seeing you playing Minecraft with your daughter.
Oh yeah.
That was like a splash of refreshing holy water in such a dark time.
It's so much fun, that's what people forget, right?
They think Hedonism is about sex, and like, yeah, okay, sex is great, but the real, I mean, the real fun is also in parenting, right?
It looked lovely.
It was like, I was like, that's really nice.
So that's one of them.
And that's a more recent one.
And, you know, this has happened over time.
This has happened over the past two years, slowly, you know, slowly and slowly and slowly.
I remember I met up with two of my friends.
You know, one of them, he's always maintained, like, it's your duty to have kids and get married.
And I, you know, Put my foot in and I gave all my reasons why I was going to be single forever.
Does he not know you at all?
Of all the people to say duty to, you, of all people, it's the complete opposite way to get you to have kids.
I've been talking to him recently and he's happy that I'm changing on this.
I listed off my shallow reasons why I didn't want to pursue it.
You know, one of my shallow reasons was, oh yeah, but women, uh, after 10 years, you know, she's not going to look the same as when you first found her.
And his response to that stuck with me.
He's like, yeah, sure.
Okay.
Women, a woman is going to hit the wall, but remember man, one day you will.
And that was, I was like, Whoa, yeah.
I hadn't thought about that.
So that was like probably the first real kick down this tunnel.
Yeah, and sorry, just to be clear on that, I mean, we know obviously that sperm lasts longer than eggs, and male attractiveness outlasts female attractiveness, but that's not the central issue.
At some point, as you get older, as a man, you know that the woman is there for some reason other than just how you look.
And maybe it's your virtues and all that.
You know, like it could be.
It could be.
But there is a time where you know you're not a boyfriend, you're a sugar daddy, and that's gross.
Like, that's a gross moment.
Yeah, and I don't want that to be me.
No, you really don't.
You really don't want to have to buy it that way.
That's not good.
I mean, it's...
It's even worse if you are willing to enjoy that, because then it's just about domination and bullying and control.
Yeah, no, it's nasty.
Yeah.
So, hitting the wall for the man is important.
And of course, when you hit the wall as a man, which can be later, you can give the man an extra 10 years, like 45 or whatever.
It depends, right?
It depends on a number of factors.
If you have a genetic predisposition to gain weight, Then that's not good.
If you're short, it's going to be shorter, your shelf life and so on.
And it also depends on your hairline, right?
So for, you know, one of the things that can be a great curse for men, you know, a great curse for women can be big boobs and a great curse for men can be, you know, one of those rock solid Roman pantheon legionnaire hairlines that doesn't give weight under the waves of time.
Because when you have that sort of thick hair in perpetuity, It can give you this Peter Pan sense of agelessness, whereas, of course, if you start to get the four-head, the five-head, the six-head, the eight-head, it can sort of remind you that time marches on, and you've got to start developing other qualities than prettiness.
Yep.
I'm just remembering your photo.
Yeah.
It's so weird.
It's so weird you mention that.
Yeah, because it's really interesting.
Actually, I've just had a hair transplant.
Oh, did you?
Yeah, because you look like you've got quite the forehead in the photo.
Yep, creeping up.
And that's got to be a contributing factor as well, part of the reason I'm realizing my own mortality.
No, I mean, because the real reason is, like, there's an interesting question, right?
The interesting question has always been, why do women lose their hair?
Sorry, why do women not lose their hair, but men do?
Because you sit there and say, well, gosh, if women find hairy guys more attractive, then why on earth would men lose their hair?
Like, why wouldn't the genes for male pattern baldness have died off long ago?
It's a sort of fascinating question.
I have two vague answers, and neither of these, of course, are scientific, and I'm curious what your thoughts are as well.
But the first, of course, is that there weren't scissors throughout most of human history, so hair was, like, really, really tough to cut.
I guess you could burn it or, you know, take a flint to it or something like that.
And so guys who had no hair would be tougher in battle because you can't grab their hair, right?
So that's sort of one possibility.
It could also just be a side effect of increased aggression.
But I think the other thing too is that balding is a way of moving the wall ahead for men.
So for women, it's like wrinkles and sagging butt and the cougarland stuff.
And so for women, they get the wall indications come much earlier than for men.
But for men, if you start to lose your hair, then it's a reminder that you've got your own wall.
And what happens is you say, well, I've really got to settle down.
I've really got to settle down.
And because you become more mature, more responsible earlier on, those genes have a higher chance of surviving because you aren't just playing around and screwing around and stuff like that.
So it's sort of an interesting question if men, like why men are still bald and women don't.
Yeah, I think you're onto something with the second one.
It really gave me a kick up the bum.
Yeah.
Now tell me a little bit, just out of curiosity, what's the story with the... So they take the hair from the back of your head and they carve it into the top, right?
Because it's by individual hair follicles, hair losses.
So if you've got hair in the back of your head and you move it to the front, it grows forever, right?
Yeah, the hair in the back of your head and on the sides, that never falls out.
I think the reasons along the lines of it is not as susceptible to a chemical called DHT, so that tends to stay giving you the fryer tuck piece and the rest falls out.
So what they do is they cut a strip from the back of your head, cut it up into portions and then stick it individually in the top.
And how much did that run you?
It was, we're talking about, how much was it in pounds?
I think it was about £5,000.
Holy crap.
Yeah.
And how many operations does it take?
For me, this one should... Generally, people do need more than one over time, because you do the front and the back falls out, so you do the back.
It seems as if doing the front will keep me good for 10 years, maybe.
I don't know.
Oh, and then it might sort of recede under and then you get that weird looks like you've been in a fire look, right?
Yeah.
Right.
And it also has improved a lot, like way back in the day.
It really did look like Ken doll plugs.
They were called plugs, right?
Because you could really kind of see it.
There was like scar tissue and you could see the tufts and like they were all clustered together.
I think it's improved quite a bit since those early days, I think.
Yeah, they've refined it.
Definitely.
Yeah.
Right.
And is it painful?
No, it was just annoying because for about 10 days I had to sleep.
Basically sat up.
How long ago did you do this?
I only did it five weeks ago, so it's obviously playing a big factor in my current thinking.
Are you pleased with, can you tell?
I mean, how long ago did you do this?
Oh, I only, well, I only did it five weeks ago.
So it's obviously playing a big factor in my current thinking.
And you actually can't see the results for, you know, like eight months to a year.
Oh, really?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The follicles are traumatized by moving?
Yes.
Holy shit, I didn't know that.
Yeah, yeah, they go dormant.
You actually lose some of the other hair in your head through shock loss.
Well, and removal, right?
So you get balder for like a year before you get your hair back?
Yeah.
Jesus.
I'm glad now I never looked into it.
Sorry, I shouldn't say, but you know, that's different for me.
But anyway, go on.
Well, I don't know.
Part of me was thinking like, I haven't really made the right decision.
Well, it's interesting.
I've got to go back to work in a few days and they're going to be like, what the hell has happened to you?
Oh, well.
I was in a fire!
There you go.
Yeah, that'll play well.
No, but so but tell me, so when did you first notice your hair loss?
Ah, it's really weird because, you know, I didn't really notice it on myself because I was used to having my sort of Dragon Ball Z hair where I stick it up at the front and I've got my blonde quiff.
And you know, I was playing that game for a while.
Wait, hang on.
Sorry.
There's like way too many references here.
I don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
All right.
So did you sort of brush it forward and then up at the widow's peak?
Well, it would, it was up and then it'd be sort of to the side.
And then I remember a few years ago I had a haircut and I walked into work and like one of the staff joked to me, he's like, Oh, going bald.
I was like, what?
I'm not going bald.
And no, they were right.
And I realized it was sort of receding and then it was thinning.
And it really exacerbated in the past two years.
I hadn't really noticed it.
It's really weird.
I didn't really notice it on myself.
But yeah, it was getting very thin and diffuse at the top.
I was really, you know... Like Widow's Peak with the front promontory or the whole thing?
We're talking Widow's Peak with thinning of the hair.
Ah, right.
So you weren't going full Dracula.
OK, because that can be kind of weird where you get that like...
It's like pulling back a... Oh, occasionally, please serve me up the next word.
Those Y-shaped things, a catapult.
It's like, yeah, you've got this pulling back a catapult string and it gets longer.
You've got hair at the front, but it's just kind of all angling up on the back to go away.
And that can look actually kind of cool, make you look like a speedboat for a while, but it is kind of a losing battle.
And so this was in your 20s, right?
You started to thin out?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So was this horrifying?
Did this consume your mind?
Or were you like, oh shit, I'm doomed, or what was it?
Yeah, it was hard to take.
I was sad about it.
Part of me thought about two years ago, because I kind of saw it happening, part of me thought if I just hit the gym and bulk up, it'll be a lot less bad.
Oh shit, is that why you went to the gym?
That's part of the reason, yeah.
Yeah, well here's the thing, right?
I mean, I've said this before, but, you know, we always got the new listeners.
Being bald is like having tiny tits.
And you can have tiny tits if you're not overweight.
Yeah.
You know, like for a woman.
Because, you know, if you've got big boobs and you're overweight, you know, it's still vaguely proportional kind of thing.
But if you have small boobs and you're overweight, now, you can have small boobs, but you can't be overweight.
And the same thing, if you're bald, you can do bald, but you can't do fat.
Now, if you got thick hair, I don't know why, but you can kind of get away with the extra weight.
Because then you're just like this big retarded Victorian schoolboy or something like that.
But if you're bald, like it's another reason why maybe being bald has survived because it helps people to stay trim because you cannot be bald and fat.
You can't – like I remember Peter Gabriel, the singer.
I don't know what he's been doing over the last 20 years or whatever.
But Peter Gabriel was a singer when I was younger who I guess originally founded Genesis and then went off for his solo career and so on.
And he's a cucktastic guy in horrible ways and was not good at all for South Africa and other things like that.
But anyway, neither here nor there.
So he had full head of hair, good-looking guy, very charismatic, great performer.
And I didn't see him for a while and then I was down at the Air Canada Center in Toronto and – This is many years ago, and there was a picture of the guy, like, coming soon, Peter Gabriel, and it's like, why is Uncle Fester coming to sing Peter Gabriel songs?
Because he'd bloated up and he'd lost his hair, like Billy Joel style, right?
And I was like, okay, dude, you know, there's nothing wrong with losing your hair, but you can't be, like, you can lose your hair Bruce Willis style, but you gotta stay relatively, you don't have to be skinny, because if you lost your hair and you're too skinny, people just assume you're sick.
So maybe it's another thing that encourages men to sort of work out, answer their survivability and genetics.
I don't know.
There's some positive thing genetically about hair loss, which is the only reason why.
And also the other thing too is that, frankly, in my experience, women don't care.
They don't care.
Everybody thinks that they care, but women don't care.
Yeah.
Well, I had a friend.
He was slick bald.
And I remember him saying years ago, if you're going to be bald, don't be Moby.
Now...
Moby, the singer and the recording artist, right?
Yeah, the really left-wing singer, vegan guy.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember hearing, he's got this great, I don't know, like the one album that I know of his.
He had this great blues number on it and of course I just heard the blues number.
I'm like, damn, this cat's got to be fierce looking.
And I look at this guy and he's like a soy-based thumb.
It's like, well, I haven't had this experience since Rick Astley.
Yeah.
Anyway, so you did kind of freak out a little, right?
And you're like, clock's ticking away, time to kick away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think being bald actually saved me from the wrong woman.
I think.
Really?
Yeah.
Well, so balding, right?
So I guess I'd lost most of my hair by my early thirties or whatever, but I was dating this, half dating this woman and she was quite a bit younger than I was.
And you know, see, when a woman really falls for you and it's the right thing, you just feel comfortable, you feel yourself.
But when a woman is interested in you and it's a calculation thing on her part, like a monkey-branching thing or a status thing, then she's sitting there saying, well, I like this guy.
He's cool.
He's funny.
He's smart.
He's in the software industry, so he's doing all right.
And there's this calculation on her, which is like, yeah, but… You know, because he's balding, he looks older, and he's already older than me, so if my... I don't want to look like the girl who's the gold digger, right?
If I introduce him to my friends, are they going to say, like, whoa, what are you dating cueball there for, you know?
Oh, can't you do any better?
Or whatever, right?
And so, yeah, I could see that kind of calculation, and I was like, nah, no, no, no.
Because that's your calculation, right?
Which is like when you were younger, like, well, she's not going to look the same after babies and stuff like that.
If you don't go bald and you stay relatively fit and you eat well and so on, then for guys there's this great status between like 20 and 50, like you got like 30 years where, you know, things don't really change that much, right?
But if you're balding, then that's taken back 10, 15 or sometimes even 20 years.
So I think she was looking down the tunnel of time and saying, OK, well, I'm this age.
He'll be that age.
And you might be completely bald.
And then things, you know, will.
And so those kind of calculations were just kind of like gross.
I'm like, OK, well, you know, good luck.
Good luck finding the guy you want.
And it was actually the right the right decision.
So it can't help.
There you go.
The evolutionary protection of balding.
Yeah, because I think that would have definitely been a monkey branch for me over time.
So that's interesting.
Because, you know, I mean, what is it?
I'd say like 80 or 90 percent of guys start losing their hair or have hair thinning by the time they're sort of in their 60s.
It's just one of these things that's ridiculously common to the point where, you know, you see an older guy with a full head of hair and it's like, whoa, how many virgins did your ancestors kill to get you that luxurious Lion King mane, right?
It is, yeah.
It is one of these things you don't like at the time, but if you sort of look at the big arc of your life, well, I guess you don't have to because you got the hair transplants.
What is it Joe Rogan calls it?
The ring of shame?
Because I think he tried it and it didn't work or something like that.
But yeah, it's interesting.
So you got this done, and was it a tough decision to make it?
Because, you know, that's some serious coin.
Nope, not at all.
I found out about the price and I went, yep, that's fair.
Stick head on my hair.
Right.
I really didn't.
Yeah, I did kind of weigh up just now.
I didn't really weigh up shaving it, to be honest.
I was just like, yeah, let's try it.
My thought was this.
Let's go for it.
And then if it doesn't work brilliantly, OK, whatever, I've tried.
Yeah, people say to me, like, shave your head, and it's like, you can't do that when you're over 30, really.
Because, again, you just look unwell.
If you're John Luke Picard and you weigh like 140 pounds and you're almost 6 feet or whatever the hell he is, some sort of popsicle stick on legs, then okay.
But it's really not...
It's not a great look when you get older, in my humble opinion.
Some people can pull it off, right?
I mean, obviously, nobody's going to say to The Rock that it's a bad look for him.
But yeah, the shaving the head thing is not usually a very good long-term thing, especially when you get older, because Kibo and all that kind of stuff.
All right.
OK, well, thanks for that aside.
That's interesting.
So if you hadn't decided To get the hair transplants.
What do you think that would do to your confidence?
It would have reduced my confidence.
How much?
A lot.
Right.
Right.
Because you would have perceived yourself as unattractive.
Yeah, and like old before my time.
Right.
Right.
So here's, yeah, I mean, here's some of the challenges, right, that are going on.
You know, you're going to get old, right?
Yeah.
And you won't be able to hide it.
Yeah.
You won't be able to hide it.
And the real question, I think, is what kind of women do you want to attract?
So the woman who dated you for six weeks, right, from The Good Family and Great Prospects and so on, did she make a mistake?
Did she make a mistake?
Dating you?
Well, yeah, because I hurt her when I broke up with her.
Right.
So she... Now, would you say... Would you say that she was, like, a higher or the highest quality woman that you've dated in terms of potential?
Because, you know, you said that she was, like, the perfect girl, right?
Yeah, if I was looking for, like, someone to be the mother of my kids, she ticked a lot of the boxes.
So...
I would say so, yes.
Okay, so the highest quality woman made a mistake dating you?
I would say yes.
I mean, if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong, but that's sort of the empirical information that I'm getting.
I'm with you.
I just want to see where we're going.
I just want to.
Well, OK, so when I say this, that the highest quality woman made a mistake dating you.
What do you think of that statement?
That tells me I have some big problems.
Yes, yes it does.
Now, with the hair loss, and this is sort of why I'm focused on it, with the hair loss, would a high quality woman care if you had a physical attribute beyond your control Like balding?
No.
I don't think, I mean, she might have a vague preference for you to not be bald, but you know, when it came to, you know, we, we, if you want to spend 60 years together with someone, the number of hairs on their head don't add up to a huge amount, right?
Oh, she didn't care.
She didn't care.
She didn't care.
I told her, she was like, I don't care.
Right.
Okay.
So, if the highest quality women don't care, what did you just spend 5,000 pounds on?
I think I did it because it was my way of prolonging the hedonistic life which I've lived.
It was the way of prolonging being the fresh-faced blonde kid for, you know, five, ten years longer.
It's a trash attractor.
Yeah.
Am I wrong?
You are not wrong.
Right.
So you paid $5,000 to make sure that the lowest quality women would still find you appealing.
Wow.
Yep.
Right.
Now, here's another question.
What do you think of women who've had a boob job?
I think Maybe that's a red flag and maybe that's someone who I wouldn't want to be the mother of.
Do you think it might be a red flag in any way, shape or form?
Why would a woman get a boob job?
Yeah.
So why do you think a woman would get a boob job?
Uh, well, same reason I got a hair transplant.
Right.
Right.
Except women don't start with big boobs and deflate.
You know, that's kind of funny thing with hair, right?
But so, okay.
So if a woman said to you, I've had a boob job, Yeah.
Well, first of all, you probably know, and some women would certainly know, that you'd had a hair transplant, right?
Yep.
So, what... I don't know if you've ever been with a woman who's had a boob job, but if you have, or if you've had that conversation, or if you can imagine that conversation, what would you think of a woman who'd had a boob job?
I would think that I would not want to enter a long-term relationship with her.
Right.
Why is that?
It would be a red flag.
It would be that she, yeah, well, there you go.
It would be that she's undertaken a procedure.
She spent money on a procedure in order to, uh, yeah, keep attracting, uh, low quality men.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Because of course, uh, a high quality man, uh, is not going to particularly care.
Right.
About the size of a woman's boobs.
Oh.
So the good news is now, do you have any scarring up there or how's it looking?
Well, you get like a, you get a line scar on the back of your head and it goes down and down and down to like a pencil line.
But yeah, it's going to be very obvious for the next couple of months that I've had something done.
Because you've got like a red ridge.
I mean, we're not talking full Franken head, but what do you got up there?
So on the back of my head, I've got this sort of red line scar.
Yeah.
Frankenstein style, but it's gone down.
And then on the top of my head, I've got sort of like a pink area where it was red and then it sort of goes pink and then eventually it levels out and it's the same color as your normal scalp.
But is there any scarring?
Permanently, the only thing that will remain obvious is that there will be a hairline scar on the back of my head.
Right.
The doctor I had it with is quite renowned for being able to make that, basically, a thin pencil line.
Right, right.
I mean, five large pounds is fairly hefty, so I assume he's good, right?
It's not something you want to skimp on, like if you're going to do a vasectomy, you don't want the half price, right?
So, what would you like to get out of this convo?
What would I like to get?
I want to answer this well.
I would like to be able to get closer to what I'm really thinking.
I can't really answer that well.
Okay, let's go further back then, because there's a reason why you can't answer that.
So, you weren't close to your parents growing up, right?
No.
And what did they do?
And let me just sort of give you a brief glimpse, right?
So to my life, right?
So this morning, I went out for brunch with my daughter, right?
And we were laughing and sort of making jokes and just having a blast, right?
And I said to her, I said, listen, no pressure, honey, but you're not allowed to move out because this is too much fun.
And so, yeah, no pressure.
You know, it would be great.
If you could, you know, have a life that would start, but I'm afraid you're too much fun and I simply can't allow it.
So I said, you know, you're welcome to have a social life, maybe 10 years after I'm dead.
But before that, yeah, not so much, right?
So it's just too much fun.
And then she's like, oh, dad, I made a coffee for you.
It's a little bubbly.
After I'm dead.
Anyway, so and I mean, obviously, I was kind of kidding, but it's kind of true, like, She's closer to leaving than being born, and I don't know how parents let their kids go.
At this point in my life, I have no clue how parents actually let their kids go.
I didn't really understand that whole empty nest thing before I became a father, but it's like, yeah, she can get up, she can go on with her life, and I'm like, I'll be sitting there alone having brunch with my wife, which is, you know, I love my wife and all that, but it's not quite as goofy as it is with my daughter, which is probably quite appropriate.
So, the idea that I just wouldn't talk to her for years, it's so beyond comprehension.
I can't even tell you and just sort of give you a reference point of sort of where I'm coming from when you say that.
I'm not disagreeing with your choice because you had your family and you've made your choices, but just in terms of what I think a healthy relationship is between parents and kids, that's sort of where I'm coming from.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I didn't realize how unhealthy it was until I saw Other examples of healthy relationships.
But this has been a long-standing thing.
Even when I was young, like when I was 10 years old, you know, other kids, they'd run up and they'd kiss their mother in the playground.
I wouldn't do that.
I was kind of embarrassed.
By your parents?
Yeah.
Right.
And what was embarrassing about them?
I was trying to probe back into why this is.
As a sort of disclaimer, I do kind of feel like it's middle class problems in a way because I wasn't like sexually abused or anything as a kid.
But anyway, I'll go into it.
What are you saying?
There's no sexual abuse in the middle class?
All right.
OK, never mind.
That's a topic for another time.
OK, go ahead.
OK, I'm trying to probe into what this was.
And, you know, I remember being really young and like my father and my two older sisters would give me, you know, their That teased me a lot about me being my mother's favorite, like a lot, like more than a joke, like nicknames and stuff.
And I can, I look back and I realized, got to the point when I was like eight or 10 years old and whenever my mom would show me some affection, I'd really push it back.
Oh, yeah.
So basically it's like if you are perceived to be the parent's favorites and the other siblings will move in to block that and have you reject the mother because they are mama's boy, golden boy, you can do no wrong or the apple of her eye.
And then they try to move you to reject your mother so that they can try and carve off more of her attention.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's an elemental move.
It's like the piglets trying to get the udder, right?
Or the nipples of the mama pig is shoveling and pushing, right?
Okay.
Wow.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, yeah.
So my response was to react like that.
And I really pushed it away.
And I have a very bizarre relationship.
Well, I mean, it says all seven years, literally not a single word exchanged in seven years.
Wow.
I mean, I assume because there's no bond or doesn't seem to be much of a bond, I assume there wasn't some big blow up that, you know, that the the screamy reverberations of which echo in your heart, mind and soul to this day, it was just like, I'm off.
That kind of was the ending.
Yeah, I remember waving to her and she said, see you in a year.
And I knew it was going to be a year.
So there really was this sense of like, you weren't going to just weren't going to talk, right?
Oh yeah, I knew.
When I got on the plane to South Korea, I was like, Oh, thank God.
Oh, thank God.
So, okay.
Okay.
So it wasn't even like a shrug.
It was like a breaking out of prison thing.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
Now why, Dwayne, did your parents play with you?
Did they have conversations with you?
Did they enjoy your company that you can recall?
There were some good moments.
Um, yeah.
Well, okay.
Firstly, and this might, yeah.
Well, firstly, in terms of materialistic stuff, you know, that was great.
Fine.
All my needs were met there.
There were some good moments, but I just felt, you know, I feel disappointed with my father.
I feel like we really didn't connect beyond surface level.
His interaction with me would generally just be a lot of sort of...
Right.
It'd be like a lot of like teasing, but he'd do it so much.
Oh, that British shit.
Oh, fuck.
Yeah.
No, I know that stuff is so exhausting.
Yeah, it's so exhausting.
That backhanded, like constant, continual put down.
It's like, all right, we get the joke.
Can we move on?
It got to the point where I used to actually make him angry just so we could talk normally again.
Right.
Right.
Yeah, I've known people like that, and it is a British thing, a British-derived thing.
A friend of mine who had British parents when I was a kid, all he did, and I don't know if it's too much fucking Monty Python or something, or I don't know what, but it's just constant put-downs and eye-rolls.
And you're incompetent, and you're pathetic, and you're a goof.
And it's like, yeah, I get it.
You conquered three quarters of the world.
But can you not be so German and just find a balance somewhere in the middle between megalomania and self-contempt?
Like, Jesus.
Yeah, no, that is exhausting and debilitating.
And actually, I remember I ended a friendship over just this, where a friend of mine, when we were in social gatherings, I guess he was kind of competitive, or something like that.
And he would just bring up stories wherein I didn't look particularly good, or I'd made a mistake, or I'd forgotten something, or whatever it is, right?
And it's like, yeah, I don't mind a couple of those.
I think a healthy ability to laugh at myself.
But you know, when it's just like, can we, like, let's think, can we move on?
Like, okay, this is every single time, and why is this so constant, right?
I mean, why never a story where I do something right or smart or intelligent, because I'm a smart guy and all that.
And yeah, it is, after a while, it's just like, nope, nope, nope, nope, sorry.
We have a complete mismatch as to how we esteem me, and I'm not adopting yours, so can't really hang out.
And bear in mind, I was a kid, so...
Yeah, I look back and I'm just, I'm just irritated with that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and even like nowadays, the only conversations we've had literally for the past 10 years are fleeting conversations about football.
I don't really care about football.
Even when I was at university and I'd go home, you know, I'd be at university, go home for two weeks.
It's like, all right, so how long are you here for?
I'm here for two weeks.
Okay, cool.
And then it's upstairs to my room.
My TV.
It's interesting.
Most of my family life, we were all in five separate rooms watching TV.
Literally five separate rooms.
Mother and father separated.
Holy shit.
Yeah.
Yeah, and to me, it's not like I can't stand it, but it's like, I was driving back home with my daughter yesterday, and we fell silent for about 10 seconds, and she's like, well, that's weird.
Which is true, right?
Because we're just chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat.
I've introduced Aristotle and Plato into our Dungeons and Dragons campaign, so we have a lot to chat about.
But anyway, yeah, that's terrible.
And this idea that everyone's off in their own room doing their own thing, that's like, to me, that's like the air running out of the room.
Like, I can live with it for a little while, but I gotta kind of do something about it fairly quickly after that.
Oh, they did nothing about it.
And I didn't speak to my sister, right, literally.
I'm a bit fuzzy on it because it's a long time ago.
I used to squabble a lot with my sister when I was young and then, you know, sort of make up over it.
But I remember I got to about 11 years old and she trashed my room.
She trashed your room?
Why?
I don't know.
She's... Well, I do not like her.
It would go back and forth.
So for years, we'd sort of squabble and things and argue and then it'd be like, all right, and make up and stuff like that.
And it got to a point where I kind of noticed my parents were not being a united front and they weren't being uniform with the punishments.
And I felt like they were not punishing her enough.
And I also just didn't really, I just got irritated with her.
So I just stopped speaking to her.
And yeah, I didn't speak to my sister and this... In the same house, right?
In the same house, we would sit at the dinner table opposite each other.
We wouldn't look at each other.
And your parents didn't do anything about this?
They tried one time, like two years on from me not speaking.
Two years you weren't speaking to your sister and your parents were like, hey, maybe something's wrong here.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
And then we sort of sat in the lounge and had a chat about it.
It's like the 9-11 architect, like the architect of the Twin Towers showing up in 2004 saying, you know, Something's changed.
Yeah, we had this sort of like very tepid surface level.
All right, we'll do better.
And then it just didn't really work.
And yes, me and my sister have exchanged probably about 100 words with each other over the past 15 years.
And it's always been, you know, containing lots of swearing.
Oh man, I'm so sorry.
And my parents have never been a united front on that.
My sister went through, like she, I mean she got knocked up at 15, had an abortion, she was on antidepressants, she was a very horrible person, very cancerous person, and this is the younger of my two older sisters, and her and my older one, my older one, she's a nicer person, and you know, they'd fall out, they'd be screaming at each other, and it would be the bad one's fault, but my mother would always say, Leave it, Sarah.
You know, to the good one.
Like, appeasing the crocodile sort of thing.
Well, of course.
I mean, this is standard family dynamics or social dynamics when you don't have any principles.
You just appease the most aggressive person and claim that you're somehow being moral.
And my mother, to the later part of my childhood, she would protect my sister no matter what she did.
And she'd go against my father.
They were not a united front.
Right.
At all.
Well that must mean that your mother and your sister, the dysfunctional one you say, she has some characteristics.
Oh man, they do.
Yeah, yeah.
So she's protecting similar genes, similar personality, it's horrible in-group preference, amoral style.
My father said to me once, when I was about 19, he said, well it looks like me, you and your older sister have got all the good genes.
Oh man.
There's a great quote, terrifying quote, from Gertrude Stein, who had a dysfunctional relationship with her brother.
And she said, regarding her brother, little by little, we never met again.
It's always going to give me the chills.
That this is the way some relationships end, not with a bang, but a whimper.
Oh, that's it.
It ended with a whimper.
And I remember one time I went home from university in my second year.
And I was just sat and I was like, why is my family like this?
I don't know why, but I wrote like a letter and I put it on my desk and then I went back to uni.
And I remember my dad asking me about it and he was like, are we going to get any strange messages left this time?
It's like, what was the message was like?
Why is my family like this?
What was in the message?
I was like, is this all this family is?
I just sort of come back from uni and then, all right, See you.
Your room's up there.
OK.
See you in my room.
OK.
When are you coming back?
Five weeks.
All right.
Cool.
See you.
It's like you were raised by, like, vacant and angry ghosts.
Like you were in a haunted house rather than a house with people.
Yeah.
Jesus.
OK.
So this is why you're jumping from hole to hole, right?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Got to be.
Because connection, family, like you get more connection from anonymous sex than you would in your family of origin history, right?
That is correct.
Right.
You get more sensation from anonymous sex rather than a family that there's no conversation.
There's no chatting.
There's no enjoyment.
There's no playtime.
There's no trust.
There's no, right.
There's like, they're not there.
Yep.
Right.
So yeah, you, uh, you were kind of like at the image I get is your mom squatting over a grave when she gave birth.
Yeah.
You're born into a coffin of social absence and a kind of living death.
This proximity without intimacy is worse than anything.
Because if you're alone, you have your own thoughts, you can do your own thing and enjoy your own company.
And if you're with people and you're connected, that's great too.
but being around people without being connected is a kind of existential torture.
Yeah.
And, yeah, so from – well, I mean like – right.
When my parents had come home from work, my mom would go into the living room and she'd be in there alone.
And this happened for literally like 15, 20 years.
You know Coronation Street?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
So she'd watch these like crappy British soaps for five hours a night.
And if you went in and talked to her when it wasn't the advert break, she'd get annoyed.
I'm watching my shows!
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm sorry, I just... No, that's horrible, because then the other thing, too, it's like, well, son, the people I really care for are two-dimensional strangers on the other side of that screen.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, soaps are like the pornography of the woman's heartlessness.
I'm sorry to say all this is middle-class problems.
So, okay, now the question.
How physically attractive were your parents when they were younger?
My dad was good looking.
Yeah?
Yeah.
And your mom?
My mom was pretty good.
My mom was good looking.
Yeah?
Yeah.
So maybe that's why they got together.
Wow.
So it's a good thing you're staying pretty now, isn't it?
So you can end up with a woman just like dear old mom.
Wow.
No, if you want to understand your life, one of the biggest questions you can ask is, why were my parents attracted to each other?
Why did they get married?
Why did they have children?
It's a foundational question about you.
Because it's why you exist.
And it's the most likely pattern you are to repeat.
Especially if you've never asked that question.
Why were your parents attracted to each other?
Why did they get together?
Why did they have children?
And if they stayed together, why did they stay together?
Now, my guess is that your parents stayed together because of vanity.
Do go on.
Well, if they got together based on looks, then that's vanity.
Right?
I want to look good with this empty-headed, socially avoidant, endless, sarcastic joke cracker on my arm.
So... And then, when you are in these shitty, empty, non-relationships, lost deep in interstellar space of nothingness contact, Why do you stay together?
Because it looks bad to get divorced, you see.
Oh my God, yeah.
Vanity, right?
You get together for vanity, and you stay together for vanity.
That's amazing.
Why do you not want to, like, why do you appease the troublesome child?
Because if there's big blow-ups, your family looks bad, and they might even sound bad to outsiders, so you just have to appease no matter what.
Bloody hell.
I tell you, it's interesting.
We are going back into middle-class British life.
So my grandfather, he's from a good background.
He remarried and had a nice wife.
And it was really odd.
When we used to go and visit them, my parents would put on this ultra middle-class show.
And they'd act really posh.
And they would call me Nicholas.
Yep.
They never call me Nicholas.
I was like, what are you doing?
My name's Nick.
And they get really angry if I pointed that out in front of them.
I'd be like, what?
Why are you calling me Nicholas?
Oh, that's so lower class.
What?
What?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
I always wondered.
Yeah, there you go.
That's that's the answer.
Right.
Vanity.
Unbelievable.
Yeah.
Vanity.
See, they don't care about putting on a show when there's no one to watch.
And who the fuck are the kids, right?
They're just people who are... Right?
There's no one to watch.
You go out in public, though, holy shit, people can see, they can judge!
Anonymous eyeballs matter so much more than the eyeballs you actually gave birth to, right?
Man, there are so many cues which support that.
It was always like, if there was a problem in the household, the response my mother would give was, Shh!
People can hear you!
There you go.
Oh my god.
You get it?
And yeah, my father would be like, you know, I don't want you to show us up.
Yep.
Put on a good show, what?
Bloody hell.
I tell you, because one of the times I went back for uni, I was sort of sat in the house.
I was like, why am I here?
Why don't I just go sit in my room two hours away?
So I went back abruptly.
And that decision meant that I couldn't attend my step-grand's birthday.
And my father was angry about that.
He was like, well, you said you were going to go.
I was like, is that all you care about?
Right, right.
We're gonna look bad, son!
It's like this, in Monty Python's Life of Brian, Towards the End, I think it's Michael Palin plays this very tentative centurion, telling people, you know, don't let the team down!
The people carrying their crosses to their own crucifixion, you know, like, let's put on a good show, don't let the team down!
And it's like...
That's a bit of a British pathology, and it's not unique.
I mean, you want to talk about a shame-based culture, you know nothing further than the Japanese, right?
Or some other East Asian countries are very much that honor and shame-based society.
But in England, there's this peculiar, you know, people are coming, let's pretend we're normal, and then when there aren't people around, you can just sag back into your non-existence.
Bingo.
It's like the night at the museum, except the exhibits only come to life when the people are there.
The rest of the time, they're just dead and dusty.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Oh my god, there's so many cues which support that.
So many things I used to say.
Yeah.
Right.
So you have vanity with regards to sexual conquests and personal attractiveness.
And listen, I have no particular issue with vanity.
It's not to me like I know it's one of the seven deadly sins and so on.
I don't mind, you know, if your vanity gets you to the gym and stops you from gaining weight and like there's nothing wrong with wanting to look good and wanting to present well and all of that, right?
That's, you know, that's That's fine.
So to me, it's not like, well, you have to be completely free of any personal self-regard or sense of appearance.
That's not it at all.
But there's something in the middle, right?
We all know the people who could use a little more personal pride in their appearance.
And we all know the people that that's all they live for.
And you need something in the middle, right?
And I think vanity is slavery.
Vanity, excessive vanity is just slavery because You're not free to do anything other than appease the potential negative judgments of others.
And a lot of times those negative judgments are just imaginary, right?
So, yeah, the vanity is a big thing.
See, kids are the opposite of vanity.
Because a woman sacrifices some degree of her looks To have kids, right?
I mean, you can be trimmed after you have kids, of course, right?
But your belly's never quite the same, and your boobs are never quite the same, and it does age you a little bit, and so women burn their vanity to make the fire that brews the kids, right?
And that's fine.
Men also.
Burn some of their sexual vanity, because when you get married and you have kids, you better not fuck around with other women, right?
So, you gotta come to terms with your sexual conquest vanity, which is kind of built into every man, right?
We can go R versus K, right?
We got some flexibility that way.
And so, women have to give up physical vanity, men have to give up sexual conquest vanity, women have to give up monkey branching, men have to give up trading in the woman for a younger version, and this is the whole monogamy thing.
So, family and children.
If you have excessive vanity, well, it's interesting because I bet your parents also had kids because that was expected and it was considered weird if you didn't because they sure as hell didn't seem to actually want them.
Right?
So yeah, vanity and childhood children.
And this is this is your conflict, right?
Which is that you have some susceptibility to vanity.
And also, at the same time, you want A family.
You might want kids.
You want stability.
You want pair bonding.
And you're going to have to burn up some of that vanity to make that happen.
Yeah.
It's well worth it.
I'll tell you that.
It's well worth it.
Because vanities are a losing battle.
Kids are a winning battle.
That's what it looks like, yeah.
It is.
Yeah, for sure.
It is.
Like, do you really think my daughter's going to say, when she gets older, well, my dad's bored, so I really don't think I could spend any time with him.
You know?
It's silly, right?
I can't see your daughter getting on a plane to South Korea and saying, alright, see ya.
Well, yeah, I mean, not without me in her luggage, right?
Surprise!
Alright, okay, see ya.
Give me an email in three months, yeah.
I'm not seeing that likely.
I bought her dungeon dice, honey, let's play.
No, that's not going to happen.
If at some point you may want to go off and travel the world, then we'll stay in touch and I'll try and go and see her from time to time.
I'm so sorry.
Just fundamentally, I'm incredibly sorry for this isolation and tension and frustration and alienation that you experienced as a child.
To me, your parents were very abusive.
Really?
Oh, absolutely.
No, I'll tell you why.
I'll tell you why.
Listen.
I mean, you've heard me make this analogy before, so I'll keep it brief.
But, I don't owe everyone in the world food, but if I lock someone in my basement, and I don't feed them, I'm guilty of murder, right?
Yes.
Your parents don't owe social interactions to everyone in the world.
But when they have children, they damn well do.
Nick, they damn well do.
They owe you social interactions as surely as they owe you food and shelter and health care.
It's their job.
Because you're not out in the world.
You can't go make that shit up on your own.
I don't have to teach everyone in the world English.
But I have to teach my daughter, right?
Gotcha.
Yeah, it's just, Stefan, part of the reason my objection to that is, like, In terms of materialistically, everything was provided for.
That was always met.
So I always felt a bit silly, complaining in a way.
No, no, no.
See, here's the thing.
You would have been better off if your parents had met fewer of your material needs and at least some of your genuine, legitimate emotional needs.
I agree.
I have a friend who told me a story when we first met many, many years ago.
Because, you know, he was asking me about my childhood and I was telling him and, you know, and so on.
And he was saying, you know, like, I'm sorry.
He said, like, but remember the, you know, the fact that you didn't have enough.
He said, listen, I just want to give you the view from the other side.
He said, I grew up in an upper middle class family and nobody talked to me.
And he said, listen, I remember one time I was like, I don't know, 10 or 11 years old.
I left my bike somewhere and the next morning I had a new bike.
No problem.
Like that.
And I think because I'd said like I never had a new bike when I was a kid.
I used to get that Adam Sandler seven different colors bike, all assembled from stuff I'd found at the dump.
And he said like, it's horrible because you're comfortable and you're empty.
Yes.
And that's the worst.
Like, at least I got... I hate to say this, but at least I just got the shit beaten out of me and stuff like that, because that's identifiable, right?
This weird, everyone's-in-their-own-rooms-all-watching-TV-and-you-can't-interrupt-your-mom-because-she's-got-her-face-glued-to-some-shitty-screen-with-shitty-soaps-on-it-for-five-hours-a-night?
That's abusive!
When I've sort of complained about it before to other people, it's always been really intangible.
I've always found it really hard to say what happened and how I feel, which is bad.
I mean, put it this way, I've had a recurring dream quite a few times, even recently, I had it a month ago, where I'm beating up my father.
Sure.
I'm beating the shit out of him.
Right.
And do you know what that is?
No.
Please tell me.
Some kind of fucking contact.
Some reaction.
You're there.
You exist.
Even if you only exist in the form of bruises and lacerations on your father's face, you exist and you have impact.
Yeah.
It's contact.
It's... Yeah.
...noticeability.
Can't ignore me if I'm hitting you, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, that explains a lot.
Yeah.
That explains, you know... Yeah.
But you don't have to have that way.
It doesn't have to be like that for you.
I mean, once you identify it, right?
Again, this is why you gotta ask, why did my parents get together?
Why did they stay together?
What were the foundational principles that drove my family?
Because that's the stuff that's hardwired into you, and you can change it.
But you've got to find the wiring first, right?
Yep.
So, if you're aware of that, and listen, the fact that you listen to this show, I assume that you listen to the call-in shows too, right?
Yep.
So, this is the thing, right?
I mean, the call-in shows, they're all about contact.
I mean, haven't you felt that Goose bumpy thrill.
And when you listen back to this, you'll hear it.
Like when I said, it's vanity.
You're like, oh, right?
Shit.
I'm seen.
I'm visible.
I'm heard.
I'm connected.
I have contact, human contact.
Forget about looking for life on other planets.
Just look for life in the living room sometimes.
It's like a tough request, right?
So if you like the call-in shows, like some people, they fucking hate the call-in shows because they find it incredibly uncomfortable.
I mean, I've had people who've emailed me saying even listening to me chat with my daughter is like really uncomfortable because they're waiting for me to start screaming at her for making a mistake because of their own family, blah blah blah, right?
But if you're listening, if you can handle these call-in shows, if you can handle this conversation which you're doing magnificently in, what that means is that you are aware That there's a gap.
You are hungry to close it.
And you're aware that sexual hedonism not only is not going to do it, it's going to do the opposite.
And you're also aware that time's running out.
Right?
Yeah.
Time's running out.
Yep.
And we don't have forever to correct the mistakes of the past.
I don't think it's too late for you, obviously, but I wouldn't keep going this way.
Every road, like every mile we take in the wrong direction is two miles, right?
Because we also got to come back.
Yeah.
So stop banging chicks and start looking for women.
Yeah.
And here's the thing.
Do it now before your hair regrows.
You know what?
You know what?
I've been having that thought.
Yeah.
Do it now.
Because, you know, you got a special pick for your lady, you know?
You think these are my boob sizes?
I'm going to Britney Spears, push that weird button that makes them get bigger.
You know, like, hey, you thought I came with no hair?
Just wait a moment.
Because if she chooses you when you're balding, right?
That's so weird.
I was thinking, I've been thinking about that.
Yeah, you got that.
This is why I was, I even did the year's grace.
It's kind of cool.
Six months to a year to, to find a quality woman.
And you got to bond with the parts of you that only get better, right?
And in terms of virtue, integrity, knowledge, wisdom, hopefully those things improve over the course of your life.
But, you know, your looks ain't, generally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you can have a family life full of fun and laughter and challenge and disagreements and board games and...
Pillow fights.
Sounds pretty nice.
It's fantastic.
I tell you what, it sounds so nice because I've been parroting the shallow reasons for not going down that route, you know?
Oh, well, you know, when I go home, I can do what I want.
And what do I do after I come home from work?
OK, I sit on the couch.
I watch TV, sometimes play games.
You know, that time could be used Raising a son.
You could be engaging with new thoughts that only exist because of you and your wife.
You could leave new life, new reason, new arguments, new intelligence on the planet.
Look, I mean, your genetics are great, right?
I mean, you're a good-looking guy.
You're smart, right?
I mean, for God's sakes, if it ain't gonna be you, it's gonna be a whole bunch of other people that may not be quite as productive in the world.
No, and this is the old thing, right?
There's an old Tom Hanks movie.
No, sorry, Billy Crystal movie, when Harry met Sally, or something like that, where she says, you know, we don't want to have kids because, you know, and we want to live downtown because, you know, we want to go to the opera and we want to go skating in Rockefeller Center and we want to do... and we never do.
We never do those things.
And, you know, this is the thing, I mean, you're gonna look back and, you know, if you don't, you know, like settle down, get a family or whatever, right?
I mean, with a quality woman and all, you're gonna look back and say, okay, well, I watched a whole bunch of fucking Netflix in my life.
Which is passive, right?
You're not creating anything, you're just consuming.
And there's nothing wrong, again, nothing wrong with that from time to time, but... There's something my Irish friend said that I thought was really profound.
You know, he said this idea of, like, freedom, it just makes you a slave to very shallow sexual impulses and materialism.
Well, and everyone who leaves you doesn't want to stay.
Like, everyone who leaves you, like you have sex with them or you date, everyone who leaves you, they don't want to stay.
Now that's either because they're high quality and they recognize that they're slumming or they're low quality and you're slumming.
Yeah.
And so everyone who leaves you, it's like, yeah, well, there's another person who just wanted me for sex, like an object, and doesn't like me as a person enough to stick around and hear my thoughts over bagels, right?
Yeah.
So yeah, don't keep doing that to yourself.
That's not good.
Yeah, man.
Yeah.
I've noticed that, like, just recently, I have strong emotional reactions, you know, when I see People playing with their kids.
It brings me to a child-like level.
I'll be completely honest, I've had tears in my eyes.
Even seeing you playing Minecraft with your daughter, I was like, oh my god.
You never experienced that, right?
Anything like that?
No.
Yeah, well you should.
Now you know what's missing, now you know what to provide, right?
All right.
All right.
Okay.
Will you let me know how it goes?
Absolutely.
You know, make sure you send me a picture of your hair.
I've always been kind of... I never quite trust the before and after pictures.
I know it's going to take a while.
But, you know, send me a picture at your wedding when your hair's just beginning to grow in.
I'll send you a before and after.
And yeah, I think that's really good advice to look for it while my hair's gone.
Absolutely.
I really do.
I really, yeah.
All right, man.
Well, keep me posted.
Thanks for a great chat, and I'll let you know when this is up and running.
All right.
Thank you, Stefan.
Thank you so much.
Bye.
All right.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Well, thank you so much for enjoying this latest Free Domain Show on Philosophy.
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