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May 8, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:11:01
"My Wife Wanted Kids, Now She Wants an Abortion!" Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
Well, let me give you kind of a bird's eye view of the situation, and I'll let you dive in where needed.
Basically, my wife and I are expecting a child, and my wife does not want to have the baby, or have anything to do with it, or have anything to do with me.
Now, is that whether or not you want the baby or whether or not, like, is it just like the marriage is done and because of that the baby is done or she really doesn't want a baby and if you agree to an abortion then you might be in the clear or where does it stand?
Yeah, I've tried to flesh that out a little bit.
When she first told me that she was pregnant, she didn't tell anybody else.
I was the first person to know, naturally.
And the second thing that came out of her mouth was I think I want an abortion.
And that kind of took me aback because we had talked about having children as a couple.
And then I responded back to her and my first reaction was, well, if you get an abortion, do you think we're still going to stay married?
Kind of passive, but all right.
You're trying to sort of sound the depth, so to speak, right?
Sure, sure.
Could I have said, we're not staying married if I get an abortion, is what it's now come to months later.
And what did she say when you first posed that to her?
She thought that I was being the aggressor by threatening the relationship.
with this decision that she wanted.
She can kill the baby, but you can't threaten the relationship, because then you're an aggressor.
Correct.
Right.
Yes.
All right.
All right.
Yes.
Okay.
And so, yeah, and just to continue, so then I immediately reached out to a therapist and talked with this person, set some times for us to go in together to talk.
So I was being very proactive, talking about everything and She has slowly been shutting down, not talking, going very much inside of herself.
I assume by that you mean your wife, not the therapist, right?
That's correct, the therapist.
Yes, encouraged conversation.
My wife told me that in therapy that she had set appointments to go to the abortion clinic but never went through with it.
Canceled it every time.
When did you find out?
Of the pregnancy or of the Uh, in December.
Wow.
She's kind of pushing the upful up a little bit, isn't she?
Well, that is one of my arguments to say, hey, we need some decision because there is a finite amount of time on this situation.
Is she showing?
She must be, right?
Oh, of course.
Yeah.
Of course.
Yeah.
And she has been on a little bit of this, this, tear with other people as well.
And my family is absolutely scared out of their mind.
Everybody that hears this is scared out of their mind.
I tried to use what?
Sorry, go ahead.
Sorry, you say they're scared out of their mind when they hear this.
But what does this refer to?
refers to as in our marriage might end.
And I may have a child.
So I'm trying to understand the emotion of fear, concern, anxiety, upset, anger, but fear, why are they scared?
Are they scared of her?
Are they like, what are they scared of?
Mostly, they're afraid of, they've told everybody that they're having a grandchild.
And then they have to go out into the world, right?
And say, boy, so because she's showing Was it that she showed?
Because, you know, there's that old joke that says never assume a woman's having a baby unless you actually see one coming out of her.
Noted.
Did you tell them?
How did they know?
We told them.
She elected to tell them in December, within, you know, by eight weeks.
Why would she tell them if she's planning on... That seems kind of cruel, isn't it?
I think so.
I think so.
I thought that was her indication that it would be something that you want to do.
What the hell is going on?
I know, right?
You want to have kids.
She gets pregnant.
She says she wants to kill it.
She tells the parents.
She doesn't do it for five or six months.
Like, what the hell is going on?
Agreed.
And that's what I'm trying to figure out.
And she is not communicating with me on what is going on.
And it's pushing me.
I guess she's not around for a chat now, is she?
No.
Okay, so how long have you been married?
Just under a year.
How long did you go out before you got married?
Two years.
And what attracted you to her?
Obviously not her fantastic communication skills.
Correct.
We are discussing that.
Well, one of you is.
She is and was, as far as I could tell, Virtuous in regards to very good at taking care of the house, taking care of other people, taking care of the responsibilities in her life, and was very proactive with communication up till this point.
Oh, she was in the past?
Yes.
Okay.
And in fact, we had done a significant amount of Preparation for the marriage.
I mean we had books five, you know half a dozen books that we had read We went through questions upon questions, you know Just you know thousand one marriage questions to ask before you get married.
We went through every single question in there And so we had talked about as far as I could tell everything and There is Something that now, if you don't mind, I can share with you what I think is a red flag now that we have got to this point.
Go ahead.
She was able to answer each of those questions in those, for example, that thousand and one questions before you get married book.
One question scenario came up and it said, what would you tell your future spouse if you had had an abortion?
with a previous relationship.
That was the first time she showed emotion to that question and she answered yes that she did when she was in her early 20s.
And we talked about that in regards to she said, I'm over it.
It was with a bad decision, bad person.
It was a bad decision to get an abortion or just a bad decision to be with that person?
Or do you know what that meant?
Bad decision to be with that person and not be proactive about sexual relationship.
And we talked about that and she has, you know, that was, that was numbers of years ago.
it's a good example.
And she has, uh, she, she told me at that time that she has passed that and you know, her, her for wanting to have children as well.
It was zero to two.
She said, I'd be happy with none, be happy with one or two.
And there was no, I would have been, uh, I don't know if she was smoke screening me when she said that one or two, because there's a real big difference between a zero and a one.
Yeah.
I've noticed that.
Yeah.
And, uh, cause I said, what are we doing?
Like you said, zero, one or two.
And I said, you should have been more adamant if you said absolutely no, because that's, that's a, that's kind of a game changer.
Okay, so before you got married, she said that she'd be happy with children.
And is it now that she just doesn't want children at all?
Yes.
Oh, so that's her decision, which is no kids, right?
She does not want to be a mother.
So aren't you done?
I mean, maybe I'm missing something here, but if she's breaking that foundational deal, like marriage is about kids, right?
So if she said, I want to have kids, and now she says, I'm pregnant, I'm going to kill the kid, and I'm not going to have any children with you at all.
I mean, that's such a foundational rewriting of, you know, that's like me renting a car and saying, no, I'm going to keep it.
Well, I mean, to put it in a ridiculously shallow context, but I mean, that's such a fundamental rewriting of the deal, then I mean, aren't you, I mean, if you want to be a dad, and I guess, I'm guessing you do, and I hope that you will, all the listeners to this show should have kids, in my opinion, but I mean, and I don't mean to say lightly, because it's not a light decision, but that's That's it, right?
I mean, she betrayed her foundational contract for the marriage, right?
I'm trying to see if there's anything that I'm missing, but you are correct.
I mean, it's worse than having an affair, because having an affair doesn't mean that you can't end up being a father if you can work through it, right?
I mean, so this is...
I mean, this is one of your biggest dreams in life, I assume, is to become a father.
And she married you on the grounds of that being on the table.
Now, it's off the table.
So, I mean, maybe I'm missing something, but aren't you just done?
Yes.
I mean, I'm trying to find if I'm missing something in terms of perspective.
You know, certain people are suggesting that I No, no, no, no.
No, no, because the issue is, I mean, so the waited out is a terrible idea.
Yes.
I mean, I'm a big fan of listen to what the hell people are saying to you.
Once you hold the baby, you're going to be happy, as in to her.
No, no, because the issue is – I mean so the way that out is a terrible idea.
Yes.
I mean I'm a big fan of listen to what the hell people are saying to you.
And if she says to you, I don't want to have kids, then, you know, like respect the women's no, right?
Not respecting the woman's no, like, oh, I'll just get you more drunk and maybe we'll have sex.
That's, like, perilously close to very, very nasty behavior.
So, I mean, no, I'm a big fan of, like, people tell you, and all we have to do is open our ears and listen.
Because the fundamental issue isn't the kids or not.
The fundamental issue is that she has committed a foundational betrayal upon you.
And views you as the aggressor.
That's the dysfunction.
It's really not about the kids fundamentally.
It's about that she said she wanted kids, you're pregnant, she's pregnant, and now she wants to kill the kid and she doesn't want to have kids and she's viewing you as the aggressor.
That's the psychotic stuff in my opinion.
Yep.
So, okay, now we have to rewind because Everyone says there was no signs.
No signs!
Couldn't tell, right?
So what?
Let's go back, right?
So first of all, until you did the questionnaire, she kept the abortion from you, right?
Until we went to therapy.
Two months after she declared it to the world that she was pregnant.
So she didn't tell you about the abortion until two months after she was pregnant and she wanted to abort again?
That's correct.
Right.
That seems important.
Because then you wonder what the hell else she might have kept from you, right?
That is creeping into my mind as well.
Well, it'd be crazy if it didn't, right?
Because this lying by omission stuff, and that is a direct Lying by omission.
There are things that you need to know about before you get married.
Things like STDs.
Things like actual number of sexual partners.
Things like, did you ever have an abortion?
Have you ever been pregnant?
Even if you had a miscarriage.
This is important medical information to know what to have.
It's sort of like if you had some childhood ailment, You need to tell people about that when you get married because it could come up again.
It could be part of the genetics.
It's just we need the full rounded information before we get married and withholding any of that is a betrayal.
All right, so now we need to figure out what signs, if any, there were ahead of time to realize that she was capable of this.
I mean this is genuinely lunatic behavior in my opinion.
Yes.
How pretty is she?
Oh, she is very beautiful.
Right.
So she's got hot mess privilege, right?
Yes.
There's a pause there, which means that you may want to say, hey, feel free to say no to me.
I mean, I'm just some guy on the internet.
You can tell me I'm completely wrong and I'll listen to you, right?
Well, exactly.
Well, what constitutes a hot mess?
Without bearing much information, she Okay, I'm gonna start quibbling with your very first characterization there, my friend.
She's extremely responsible?
No.
I mean not based on anything you've told me so far.
The height of irresponsibility to shift the goalposts regarding children.
To say you're going to have an abortion and then tell the grandparents who are desperate for grandchildren and then not have the abortion and then not communicate about it and then only tell you about an abortion when you're in therapy after she's pregnant and is promising to kill the baby which she doesn't end up killing.
You understand that from the outside, given that this is my first view of her, when you say that she's very responsible, I'm like, what the hell are you talking about?
I don't see that at all.
Yep.
But I guess you could say she's practical in business?
Yes, that's a fair statement.
Okay.
All right.
All right.
Not a responsible person, but she has practical skills with regards to business, right?
Yes.
All right.
Now, sorry, go ahead.
So she is very pretty, right?
Yes.
And you understand that's a warning sign.
I mean, don't get me wrong, good-looking women, it's fine.
I think my wife is very attractive.
But very attractive women, it's like if you're a woman and you're dating a guy who grew up super rich.
It doesn't mean he can't be a good guy, but it's a red flag for sure that needs to be examined in particular.
Because, what's that Aria Grande song?
I want it.
I got it.
I want it.
I got it.
It's like, yeah, that's the life.
It's just this constant conveyor belt of hungry penises bearing resources.
And there's not a lot of reality.
There's not a lot of common sense.
There's not a lot of, you know, the things we bump up against define us, right?
The things that we have to work to achieve define us.
The things that come easily don't really define us much at all.
The things that we have to work to achieve, that's where our willpower is.
That's where our personality is.
And so for very pretty women, things come so easily.
Like, Like I did this mocking thing about the secret, you know, the secret.
Just ask the universe and the universe will provide.
And with no exception that I can think of, all of the people who just believe the universe is going to provide them free stuff are all very physically attractive people.
And I'm not just talking about ladies.
And so, yeah, if you're really, really attractive, like, hey, it feels like the universe just provides this to you.
And it's like, no, it's just, you know, hungry sperm and eggs looking to bond based on hormonal drives.
So, OK.
So, but I mean, that's not enough.
So she's very good looking.
Childhood.
What do you know about her childhood?
So that is one area that we have tried to check into a little bit.
Uh, the main factor from the childhood was her father had a very bad temper.
And we have discussed, and as a family, we have noted that when things did not go, this temper came out when things did not go the way dad wanted.
Very explosive temper.
Now, are we talking screaming, hitting, throwing, breaking?
Did he set fire to guest houses?
I mean, what are we talking here?
Extreme verbal assault.
Verbal vomit.
Oh, so murderous verbal rage, right?
Yes.
Like a sort of disassembling personality.
It's like syllables like an acid attack on the skin of youth, right?
Yes.
And you can't put the cap on the acid spill.
You're just like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Can't stop this.
Sudden and acute?
Did they grind on for days?
Do you know what the arc was of this kind of temper?
Because there's a certain amount of explosive rage that's immature and petty and ridiculous, but there's also a kind of slow burn escalating sadism that can go on for a long time.
Yeah, as far as we can tell, it was when items or physical items in his world that he valued got bumped into.
You know, a car gets bumped by a child.
Jet ski.
Scratches the sandy bottom.
Oh, yeah, so he's got a stuff fetish.
And that... Permeated to the children where... Excuse me.
My wife... Would have to be the handler of that.
Right.
And was it?
Okay, sorry, I just wanted to repeat the question.
Was it a fast blow up and then a diminution?
Or was it it blew up and then sort of sustained itself for hours or days?
Yeah, so the blow up was typically related to items in his world that he valued.
I know you told me that I'm just trying to figure out the time for it.
Like, was it a sharp spike and then a diminish?
Or was it like, sharp spike and held on to for 24 hours.
It was that you have to walk on stones or have to walk on eggshells for the rest of the day type of thing.
Until he decided that it was okay to come back into the world.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, no, this the stuff fetish people are It's a terrible personality trait.
And listen, we all have it.
We all like our stuff to stay relatively nice.
And everyone has had an experience where someone breaks something.
There's an old movie.
I don't remember much about it.
It's called Sleep With Me and in the scene there's a guy and he's like, you remember that motorcycle you had?
You never changed the oil.
You don't know how to take care of things.
And that sort of cry of take care of things is really powerful.
It's like Tom Cruise's psycho pickup artist in Magnolia saying, you know, just do your job!
You know, like this rage of just Hyper-competence and hyper-perfectionism and hyper-expertise.
And the sad thing is, of course, that the people who hate it when things get broken, break their entire freaking relationships based upon that fetish.
That puritanism.
I mean, what's more important?
A scratch on a car or your entire bond with your children?
And people just kind of lose track of all that stuff and they sacrifice people for things.
It's like the thing is like some demon that the Aztecs used to... They used to round up like 5,000 kids and just fry them or cut their hearts out or whatever to sacrifice them to some devilish deity and it's the same thing with the thing fetish people.
They just... They use things to destroy people.
They use things to destroy their relationships with people and if they had any kind of remote common sense at all They'd sit there and say, well, you know, don't get me wrong, if somebody scratches your car, it's annoying.
I mean, of course it's annoying, right?
But if they're kids, you've got to, you know, you've got to be careful and, you know, not destroy your entire relationship with them.
And at the same time, you don't want to say, oh, everything could be replaced and you never have to take care of anything because that causes a lot of waste.
But yeah, I mean, I've said this before on my show, like the sort of big defining moment for me when I was a kid was when I put down a A glass of water on a cabinet and it left one of those little white rings where I guess the water got under the varnish or something.
It didn't get under it.
And my mom literally like beat me within half an inch of my life.
And the sad thing was that the ring actually just disappeared.
Like it didn't even stay.
And my mom still has that cabinet, to my knowledge.
And she doesn't have me, but she has that cabinet because she made that clear choice that things were more important to her than I was.
That she was willing to physically injure me because I had, through carelessness, and I'm talking about the age of five or six or seven.
I was really, really young.
And I don't remember there being any coasters around.
You know that kind of thing, right?
Sure.
It's like, well, she has the cabinet, right?
She has this cabinet.
And she could look at the cabinet and she could say, well, at least the cabinet hasn't been harmed.
And she was willing to physically injure me in order to protect her cabinet.
And it's like, well, so good.
You have the cabinet.
And you have nothing to complain about.
She's like, but I'm lonely!
It's like, well, maybe you should have thought about that before you beat the shit out of your child.
Because you were concerned about a cabinet.
Well, now you have the cabinet, and you don't have your child.
That's choices and consequences, right?
So, yeah, the thing fetish, the religion, and it's not because they care about things.
It's because, I don't know, like it's a complex thing, but it has something to do with status.
I assume that these people are all very high status.
And when you have a scratch in your car, it interferes with your status.
That's sort of one thing that's important.
And the other thing is that if you're full of anger and pettiness and vindictiveness, you need an excuse.
So much of life is just finding an excuse to vent on people with plausible excuses, plausible reasons, right?
I mean, like the leftists, right?
They're also full of rage.
And then they just find someone who said something and they just, oh, that could be interpreted as racist or sexist or transphobic.
And then they just vomit up all their rage on people.
And they don't care about these things fundamentally.
They don't care about any of that.
They're just looking for an excuse to vent their self-hatred and pettiness and bullying side.
And so the things are just the excuse.
You know, if you have little kids, You can't have nice things.
Everybody knows that rule.
Everybody knows that rule.
Here, why don't you take this grape juice and drink on the white sofa?
I mean, come on.
It's a countdown to, you know, it looks like you murdered Barney the Dinosaur with a chainsaw on the French imported linen fabric.
I mean, that's natural.
It's going to happen.
I mean the other day I dropped an olive on the couch and now we get to flip the cushions.
So yeah, this stuff's going to happen and you can have nice stuff or you can have kids, but you can't have both.
And it's sort of like this trap for kids, like there's going to be something that happens and then you get to scream at the kids.
Correct.
And the kids are going to somehow not feel like you're just an asshole, like you're just a bully.
It's like, oh, I hurt the stuff so daddy gets to hurt me because apparently I'm less important than stuff.
Now, with regards to her mom, how did her mom handle all of this?
She was the quiet glue that didn't want anything to, she didn't assertively Hold her hold any ground with anything.
It was what didn't protect her kids didn't stand up.
No, the husband.
No.
Was the husband a big owner?
I mean, you mentioned a jet ski, those things are pretty pricey.
Was your husband a big owner and the mom stay at home?
The mom was stay at home for a little bit and dad had a moderate mid range job.
And this steady paycheck, large company type of thing.
Um, enough that if you didn't go to a type of job that if you didn't go to college nowadays and you had this type of job, you could buy toys.
You could finance toys.
Right.
Does she know why her mother did not intervene to protect her own children?
No.
Does she?
If she ever wants to know why, it's because both the mom and the dad Have a thing fetish.
Yeah.
Right, which means that the mom doesn't want to upset the dad for fear that the dad will dump her and she won't have access to the things the dad's money is paying for.
Yeah.
That could have been a longer speech I feel, but every now and then I like to surprise people.
Yep.
And is the dad's temper still an issue?
It is not as much anymore.
Mainly because, as far as we gather, that he is not involved with the day-to-day dealings with the other children.
As an example, the other child has children.
And the phrase that I hear is, Grandpa is the best grandpa that could ever be.
Meanwhile, So it's I guess it's easy to be a friendly person when you are Only turn it on for a little bit.
Well, it's it's also it's part of the sadism as well.
So the sadism in my view is Involved with the bullying of your own children and then what happens is when they have children You're super nice to them as another way of gaslighting your own children And saying, look, hey, I have the capacity to be really nice.
So clearly when I wasn't, it was your fault because it's not me.
You know, the past crimes, they're all in the family photos.
They're all just lurking over like, like leaning over everyone, like Nazgul over a wounded hobbit.
They're just, the past crimes are always there.
Always there.
The past bullying, the past vindictiveness, the past abuse, the past screaming.
I mean, it's all there.
And it dictates and dominates so much of everything that happens in these situations and environments so yes now how much work has she done on this stuff self-knowledge stuff a decent amount up until pregnancy was discovered and now it is turned into nothing.
What do you mean it's turned into nothing?
As in no attempts to communicate with me no attempts to Continue personal therapy, at least read a book or two, watch a video, find something that can help improve the situation.
It's been just go inside the shell, you know, stay in the dark, dark place in my head, in her, in her head.
All right.
Sorry.
What I meant was, has she talked to her father and her mother about the issue she had as a child?
No.
Okay, so that's nothing then, really.
I mean, this sort of journaling and stuff, it's fine, but it's got to lead to a change in behavior, right?
Correct.
And that change in behavior is usually around actually being honest with the people who raised you.
Yes.
And that she hasn't done.
Now, do you know why she hasn't done that?
Probably fear.
Fear of They're, you know, as I've done in my own life, when you confront the people in your life who've done things to you, a lot of times they just say, Oh, well, you were a tough kid.
I was stressed.
And they blame you or circumstances or environment externalities.
Okay.
I had to work.
I had to pay for all this stuff that we have.
And At this moment, that doesn't seem like the obvious choice for my wife to explore.
So she's still scared of her dad?
Yes.
Right.
And does she have much contact with him?
A moderate amount.
A moderate amount, but as with A lot of family relationships, family dynamics, they turn into just, you know, high level conversations.
How are the sports teams?
How's the weather?
And how often does she communicate with her parents?
Maybe quarterly.
Like even phone calls and stuff every couple of months?
Yep.
Yep.
Wow.
Are they nearby or far?
Far away.
I mean, half a day's drive.
Do you know if your wife was ever a bully to anyone else in her childhood or youth?
As far as I can tell, no.
Hmm.
Has she talked about the circumstances of her prior abortion? - Yes.
Yes, she has.
And it was A short couple week relationship, fling.
Got pregnant and then within, well, things got tested or did one of the, I apologize, but it did not progress past a month.
I don't know what the options are.
But it was a short decision.
Quick decision, and it was done.
And do you know, was it just that she had unprotected sex?
Yes, as far as I can tell.
Again, that whole responsibility thing?
Correct.
All right.
And you said that she's emotional about it, or she was emotional about it when it came up in therapy?
Yes.
In what way?
That was the first time that she just broke down and cried openly when discussing through these scenarios and situations.
Right.
Right.
And she was afraid of telling me because she thought I would, you know, not value her as much.
Well, no, I'm sorry, that's just a straight up lie.
I'm sorry, I hate to sort of say this kind of stuff, and again, tell me if I'm way off base, but if she's so concerned about upsetting you, or you thinking less of her, then her threatening to kill your kid, yanking back support for wanting to have kids, which is the foundation of your marriage, telling grandparents, and then not getting an abortion while saying she's going to, while not communicating with you and going radio silent on this essential issue,
That is all doing such damage to your relationship that the idea she has some kind of fear of damaging your regard for her.
She has no fear of that at the moment.
She's doing everything possible to destroy your regard for her.
So I just I can't accept that as even a remotely serious explanation as to what's going on.
That's fair.
That's when you, yes.
Yeah, it's like saying, well, I don't want to do anything that harms the house while setting fire to the house.
It's like, come on.
Correct.
Come on.
Correct.
Like there's something else.
I mean, it's something obviously, but that's not what it is.
I agree.
There is something else.
Something else is the big question. - And how many times have you gone to therapy since this all started?
I have gone half a dozen times.
We have gone together twice.
And yeah.
Right.
And what is your day like with her, with this all hanging over your head?
Oh, it's, it's terrible.
There's, you know, if I don't initiate a hello or good morning, there's nothing coming back.
She is withdrawn.
Not unlike the reaction her father would do when an explosion would happen.
Get the brood over something.
And barely any conversation.
It's just, again, high-level conversation.
What's your schedule today?
And then when I attempt to go deeper into the subject at hand, it comes back, I really don't want to talk about this.
I'd rather not talk about this.
Right.
So she's ending the marriage.
Unless I'm missing something.
She's... No, I'm... Yeah, and I'm confirming that if I... I'm trying to see if I am missing something.
But there's... Yes.
She's not... Yes.
And that's... That's... That... Yeah.
I'm so sorry.
I'm that's to be this every man's nightmare, right?
Which is you get married to some woman who then fundamentally changes the deal won't talk to you about it.
And yep, won't make any decisions.
And it just ends up with you being backed into a corner.
Yep.
And having to find some way to just, yeah, survive this massive crash.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I'm talking to attorneys to figure out custody and stuff.
You know, Well, here's the weird thing.
I mean, is she going to have this kid?
Yes.
She is?
Wait, she's decided or it's just looking that way?
It is looking that way.
There is no option to do any type of abortion at this point.
Oh, okay.
And she wants to, in her mind, again, as she has threatened the marriage many times in the conversations, and she wants to End this and hand baby off and be done with it.
Oh, I'm so sorry.
So I missed that.
I thought that because I know up here in Canada, I think you can have an abortion like until the baby crowns or something.
Oh, geez.
Well, obviously, well, excuse me.
Obviously at any moment, a child can be, you know, it's not, she's not going to, I mean, at this point it is not a, you know, a two hour outpatient surgery.
Well, they'd have to induce labor, wouldn't they?
Or something?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I'm not a doctor.
Yeah.
All right.
So she so wait, has she communicated to that she wants to have the baby and just hand it off to you and what?
Yes.
And then be done.
And then like, end the marriage?
Of course.
I mean, what?
I don't see any other reason.
Wait, wait, wait.
Has she?
This is the plan.
She has said yes, I would She has hinted at, maybe I might change, but that's not an argument to say, oh, maybe in the future.
That's what got us into trouble in the first place.
Oh, maybe I'll be okay with it in the future.
I'm sorry, I really just need to nail this one down.
Has she said to you explicitly, I'm going to have the baby, I want you to take it, and then I'm leaving?
Yes.
Why do I feel there's something that's not quite coming across the wire?
She has, okay, so I just exhaled because it's, she is saying, she has hinted to me that I feel like I just want to end the marriage and give you the baby and have nothing to do with it.
Wait, so she says I have that feeling or that's my impulse, but that's not a direct, you know, here's the plan.
Correct.
She has not said here's the actual game plan that's going to happen.
And, but this is how I feel.
I think it's going to go.
And my response is, well, should we?
Can you give me a definitive yes or no?
All right.
So let's go back to because this is pretty damaged, right?
I mean, this is seriously damaged goods, right?
So how the hell did you miss this capacity in her to be this Inhumane to her baby, to you, to the marriage, to, you know, I mean, because in a way she's actually kind of, you know, she said, well, I'd be fine with one.
And so she's given you a baby, but I guess there was implicit in that and you'll stick around, right?
Yes.
Right.
And also implicit as in regards to, I can still do what I want to do, even if I want to make it zero, but we have sex, you're still going to have to, you know, we can just get rid of a baby and it's no big deal.
We'll go back to work the next day.
Was it was it unprotected sex that produced the baby?
Of course.
Well, I don't know.
I mean, she could have taken sugar pills instead of birth control pills.
Condom could have broke like lots of things, right?
No proactive.
Yes.
Okay, so she was trying to have a baby.
And then she said she was gonna kill the baby.
Now she's keeping it and she's hinting that you can have the baby and she's gonna leave like, oh my god.
I know.
I mean, this is, Steph, this is, my first reaction is like, this is evil.
It's such a, it's such a mind frack, right?
I mean.
Yeah.
And what's crazy is I've attempted to try and search for similar scenarios on the internet.
And I have not, maybe I've not searched properly.
I cannot find this situation.
They're all the opposite where a woman says, Hey, I got pregnant by my boyfriend.
He wants to give me $300 to have an abortion, but I want to keep the baby.
What should I do?
Or my husband and I had a second kid.
He wants me to get an abortion or a third kid.
He wants me to get an abortion, but I want to keep it.
What do I say?
How was your relationship for the past three years before the baby came along?
Oh, it's been apparently it's been as good as I've wanted any relationship to be.
Open communication, constant communication, goal setting, planning about the future, talking about the future, financial planning, supporting of goals, going to marriage retreats, strengthening, you know, continuing to communicate and work on this, and then this external situation comes, happens, and it's like,
Nope.
I think it's confusing.
Oh, is she religious?
No.
Okay, so... So, having had a prior abortion, while definitely tough, and emotionally it's, you know, you're never the same, right?
Yes.
But I don't see how The mere existence of a prior abortion some number of years ago would produce this kind of behavior.
It's just my opinion of course, but I don't see, like sometimes you can see, right?
Correct.
So what this means is that she has another secret, and let me tell you this, it's a doozy.
I don't know what the secret is, but this kind of behavior is so messed up that the trauma she must have experienced very early on must have been of such a degree that it split off completely from her personality, right?
Because as you said, you know, it's a good relationship for three years, you know, you're trying to get pregnant, she gets pregnant and she goes completely haywire.
That means that a part of her personality bifurcated with early trauma To the point where she, does it feel, it sounds to me, tell me if I'm wrong, it seems like she just completely switched personalities.
Correct.
Right.
So this means that she had a hived off part of trauma, maybe she wasn't aware of it, maybe, you know, it's like the postpartum depression thing, which in my opinion arises out of a lack of bonding with your own mother, which is kind of unconscious or may not even be available to conscious memory because it's so early on in your life, but the body remembers, right?
The unconscious never forgets.
So, do you know if there was any instability in her family situation?
Did she go stay with relatives?
Did her parents split up when she was little?
Did you know if there was anything unusual about her early childhood?
So, the unusual part were the father's temper leading the family or being the, what do you call it, the sacred cow that nobody can touch part of, you know, Plinkie to dad.
If that makes sense.
That was one, one theme.
And then they, uh, her parents ended up, did get divorced when she was 13 years old.
And that, uh, uh, seemed to just kick, kick both her and her brother just off into like, we're now adolescents, teenage years, formative, you know, not formative years, but, uh, adolescent development years.
And they just were kind of, you know, they, they played off of each parent.
type of thing.
They were smart enough to play off each parent.
Yeah, I mean, that's rough.
That's rough.
But that's old enough that she'd be conscious of that kind of stuff to some degree.
Yes.
Do you know why her parents split up?
What she says is that they were not happy.
And we knew they were arguing.
They were Uh, again, the family that would argue behind closed doors, but the kids know what's going on.
You know, she said we knew when we were toddlers that they were yelling behind the door and never happy and She says they got married too young.
I don't think that's a good reason.
Good lord.
And it's interesting how vague and absolutely non-responsive your answer was to this.
Because, you know, while they thought they were unhappy, it's like, well, yeah, of course.
I mean, of course.
You don't get divorced if you're happy.
But the question is, what were they fighting about and why were they unhappy?
What were the issues?
I don't know the answer to that right now.
Is it because you've asked her and she doesn't know or you've not asked her?
I could ask.
She may know.
I think there could be some hint that they maybe weren't making enough money and or mom wanted to go back to work after the children were above toddler age and there might have been some pushback.
But she did end up going back and pursuing another career.
Mom did.
And who knows if that was a status thing to have your wife want to go back to work.
Oh, it's like that Kramer vs. Kramer thing where it's like, wow, you know, the woman leaves and she gets a really great job and makes a whole lot of money, which is kind of rare.
But it's like, yeah, I guess if you don't have a kid to take care of and the husband does, then I guess you can go make some money.
Sure.
Okay, so do you know if the children were blamed to some degree for the divorce?
In other words, do you know what we needed money for the kids or the kids were difficult?
Because certainly the kids were blamed for stuff that happened to the household items, right?
I mean, if they were damaged or scratched cars or whatever.
Were the kids at all blamed for the divorce?
I don't have any knowledge or awareness of that.
Because if they were, in other words, if what the parents were fighting about was to some degree the children, and if the children were and are still blamed for the father's temper, So just go with me on this, and we'll see if it goes someplace useful.
So let me put out to you the following set of arguments.
The father is not going to take responsibility for his own vicious temper, so he's going to blame the children for why he's angry.
I'm angry because you broke something, or you scratched something, or whatever.
That's why I'm angry.
Not because I'm an immature douchebag who bullies children.
It's your fault I'm angry.
So, children, by that logic, children cause the parents to become terrible people.
Right?
If you own that as a child, like the reasons, like if you don't say, well my dad just made the excuse of stuff getting broken so he could bully us and discharge his own venom and sadism or whatever, right?
Right.
But if you say, well, you know, like if I say, if I were to say, I got beaten up because I put a cup on a cabinet.
Right, and well then I would say that children have this incredible power to turn you into a terrible human being.
Children make you hit them.
Children make you scream at them.
Children make you fight with your wife.
Children cause These disasters to descend upon the pure souls of the parents, right?
Yep.
Children are demonic imps that possess people and turn them into bad human beings.
And that's the standard excuse of abusers.
You made me do it, right?
Yep.
Now, if the idea is that children make you into a terrible person, right?
Then what happens when she gets pregnant?
She is going to assume that she is now a terrible person.
She's going to be turned into a terrible person by the baby.
Yep.
Just like she turned her dad into a terrible person by scratching the car or whatever, right?
Yep.
And that's the price you pay for not assigning the moral responsibility for abuse on the abuser.
Yep.
Like, if you, if you, like you survive the abuse, and listen, I understand this is a strategy as a child.
It makes perfect sense.
Like, I didn't say to my mom, you hit me because you're a nasty person, it has nothing to do with the cabinet.
I didn't say that.
Why?
Because she'd already indicated her willingness to injure me and possibly even kill me by beating my head against a door.
So, I'm like, those are stupid points that you can't win.
I mean, that's just like walking up to some seedy, drug-fueled biker bar and insulting the biggest guy around.
It's like, even if you're right, you're just going to get beaten up and what have you achieved, right?
I mean, it's not like you can win in that situation, right?
That's just a form of self-destruction and it's absolutely unhealthy and almost suicidal.
To ascribe accurate moral responsibility to an abusive parent when you're a child.
It is a terrible idea and anyone who tries it ends up half destroyed, if not permanently destroyed, if not physically injured or killed.
Because parents, they're like the state, they escalate until you comply or die in general.
So she could not as a child Ascribe accurate moral responsibility to her father.
I mean, it would have been a terrible idea to do that, and I fully support her internalization of that.
That she caused her father to become bad, because that was a script necessary for survival.
But when she gets older, and this is why I tell people, you don't fight back when you're a kid.
Are you crazy?
I mean, that's the terrible idea.
But when you become an adult, your vengeance is truth, your vengeance is accuracy, is giving the accurate moral responsibility to the parent, right?
That the parent who's 30 or 35 is infinitely more morally responsible for any kind of abuse or negative behavior than a child who's 5 or 6 or 10 or whatever, right?
Now, if she has not done that, then she's achieved a form of pseudo-stability, right?
So, she is stable because she's not dealt with something and she's somewhat avoidant of her parents.
I mean, if my daughter grows up and calls me four times a year, it would completely break my heart, right?
I mean, it would be a huge problem to be fixed as quickly as possible.
Interesting.
Yeah, good.
So, she's achieved a form of pseudo-stability by avoidance and by completely compartmentalizing the cause of her abuse.
In other words, she says, well, as long as I'm not a parent, I can be a good person.
Because it's only children that make parents bad, right?
But then she got pregnant.
And this, because it was so compartmentalized, and here is my plea for sympathy, right?
And I'm not saying, you know, fix the marriage against your own self-interest.
I'm just saying that if she was bifurcated to that degree, that she didn't even know how she had achieved the pseudo-stability.
And if she has this subroutine program running, which says children turn you into a monster, then she probably has no particular idea why she's acting out in this kind of way.
But she's acting out the script handed down from her father, which is children.
I mean, this is the strange thing about abusers, right?
Abusers seem very strong and very powerful, but they're actually incredibly weak.
Yes.
And vulnerable because they don't take any ownership.
I'm sorry for talking for so long.
I'll shut up in a second.
But because the abusers don't take any moral ownership for their own behavior, they end up having to ascribe causality for their emotions to children.
In other words, children run my existence.
I am I'm an imaginary child to my children's adult because they run everything.
If they yell, I yell back.
If they scratch something, I yell at them.
If they have a fight, I yell at them.
If they misbehave, I hit them.
You're actually not in control of anything.
It's the children who are running everything.
You're actually kind of helpless because you're just not willing to take ownership.
You're not willing to intervene between stimulus and response.
With will, with virtue, with choice, right?
It's sort of like, the people are like, well, hey, man, you put a dessert in front of me, I'm gonna eat it.
Sure.
Right?
I mean, it's like, it's your fault.
You put a dessert in front of me, I ate it.
It's your fault.
You wore the red hat.
It's your fault.
Yeah, yeah, you wore the red hat.
You wore the high skirt.
Of course you're going to get assaulted, right?
Like, whatever.
I mean, there's just no ownership, no moral responsibility.
And so, you're actually helpless.
And you desperately fear your children.
Because your children are in absolute dictatorial command of your emotions and your responses.
If they scratch something, you scream at them and it's their fault.
And so you're actually helpless and weak.
Yes.
And the children are running the show.
And that's a terrifying position to have children running the show in a family.
It's a terrifying situation to be in.
Yep.
And that's another reason why you lash them out.
Lash out at your kids.
It's because they're bullying you.
Like you literally feel like your children are bullying you.
Because if they put If they put a cup on a cabinet and it leaves a ring, you must beat them.
Yeah.
And it's their fault you have to beat them, so damn it, you feel like you're a victim.
Yeah.
Because they're making you beat them.
Yep.
And so this is the amazing thing, that the abusers genuinely, like the cry bully thing, they genuinely feel like victims.
Like if you hadn't, look, if you hadn't put that stupid cup on the cabinet, this never would have happened.
Yep.
And it's terrifying.
And the degree to which they feel bad, and my mom did, I think it was that night that she came in and was like holding my hand and, you know, like she felt regret and she didn't want to, you know, she felt bad.
And so then they, if they don't want to do it, right, they come home and they say, God, I hope the kitchen is clean.
God, I hope nobody spilled anything on anything.
I mean, I remember when my mother's stepmother came to visit And I was building a Spitfire, a model World War II airplane, 124 scale, I think.
I normally had one 72nd, this 124 scale was a real treat.
And we had this white shag carpet.
And I spilt, while my mother was out, but my step grandmother was there, I spilt some silver paint.
On the white carpet.
And I was like, I literally terrified, like I had just gotten a kind of death sentence because the kind of ballistic, insane abuse that my mother would have unleashed because some, you know, a sort of two thumbnails of silver paint had been spilled on the carpet.
Now, of course, now it's like, well, it was just a rental, right?
Doesn't mean you don't take care of it, but it's not like it wasn't some family heirloom or treasure or whatever.
And I remember my stepmother was also scared because my stepmother knew my mom and knew what kind of a temper that she had.
And my stepmother helped us cut the paint spill out of the carpet and cut another piece and kind of put it underneath, wedge it in, weave it over, and then move a chair so it was over.
So that we never knew about it.
And I actually remember being relieved when we moved to Canada and we got out of the apartment without my mom ever knowing it because we left the furniture, right?
There's no point in moving furniture to Canada.
Except for that cabinet, oddly enough.
But anyway.
So that situation where, like, my step-grandmother was terrified of my mother was actually quite Helpful to me.
Like, okay, it's not just me.
Like, her stepmother is terrified of her and is helping the kids.
Like, no, she can't reason with it.
Can't say, listen, it's just a little bit of paint.
It's a shame, but you know, it's not the end of the world and all that.
You don't want to damage your relationship with your kids over they spilled some paint.
It's like, but I told them to put newspaper down.
It's like, yeah, but they're, they're little kids, you know, they're not going to listen to times, right?
And so, when when my mother came home and there wasn't like I don't think my mother was never sadistic as far as I can recall I mean she had a vicious temper and was violent but she was not sadistic in other words she wouldn't sort of I don't think she would look for things Well, no, sometimes she'd storm around in a bad mood and look for something, but that was more just wanting to discharge.
She wasn't sadistic, to my memory and to my knowledge.
She was explosive, but it wasn't sort of cold and calculated, and she didn't set... Well, she would occasionally set traps, like she'd give you incomplete commands, and then you'd ask for clarification, and it'd be like...
I already told you, what's the matter with you?
But again, it was bad temper, it was ill temper, it was bad behavior, but I never got the sense that she was cold-eyed, calculated, sadistic or anything like that.
I just never got that particular sense.
So the reason I'm saying all of this is that there are some parents who When they come home and things are relatively okay, like there's no spills, there's no problem, there's no mess, there's no whatever, right?
Some of those parents, I think they're actually kind of relieved because it's like, good, you know?
Like, I don't have to be the bad guy.
Yeah.
Right?
Why do I have to be the bad guy?
Why don't you kids just listen and do what you need to do and that way I don't have to yell at you, you know?
So with your wife, if she just, in a sense, amputated that part of her that was, it's kids who make the adults bad, it's a kid who makes the parents bad, then it's almost like, and I sort of hate to put it in this hyperdramatic way, but I think then it's almost like, and I sort of hate to put it in this hyperdramatic way, Let me know what you think.
But it's almost like she's got a devil inside her that's going to possess her and make her bad.
Yes.
And the part of her who is her father wants the abortion, and the part of her that's not her father wants the baby.
And it's almost like, like if I knew, like if you ever see, it's these goofy horror movies, right?
And in these goofy horror movies, the mom is getting possessed, and do you know what she says to the children?
Run!
Get away from me!
Save yourselves!
Because the mom is getting possessed.
She doesn't want to hold the children, and she just tells them, or she'll lock herself in the closet, or she'll go somewhere else, right?
Right.
So it's almost like if she feels that this baby is going to turn her into her father, it's like, well, I can't kill the baby because it's not true that the baby will turn her into a father.
So I'll give you the baby and then I'll just remove myself because I will be too toxic.
Correct.
Now that, if that's something that's roughly true, or an avenue to talk about, then you, like whatever happens, you want to try and have as good a relationship with her as possible, I think, right?
Whether you stay together or not.
But if you can go to her and say something like, listen, I have a theory as to what's going on and I'm not blaming you.
You know you did what you needed to do to survive your father and your mother because you know if they were screaming back and forth it meant that the mom was scarcely a victim either right?
So you go to your wife and say listen I think I have an idea what's going on and I want to tell you I don't think it's your fault I don't think you're being mean but I think your dad told you that You were the reason he became a bad person and screamed and abused and all of this.
And so I think that deep down, way deep down, like deep down probably where you don't even know, you have this belief that the baby's going to turn you bad.
The baby's going to turn you into your dad.
And you don't want that.
You want to end the cycle and the only way you can think of ending the cycle is to remove yourself from the parenting environment.
But that's not ending the cycle.
Abandonment does not solve abuse.
And you're not going to be turned into your father.
I won't let it.
See, your father didn't have a strong partner, you could say to your wife.
Your father didn't have a strong partner who could restrain his terrible behavior, but in fact maybe married him for it.
Maybe she liked that alpha-dominant stuff.
It's just a whole lot less fun when it's applied to toddlers.
Right.
But I am not your mother.
I'm not going to let that happen to you.
It's not going to happen to you.
You break the cycle by staying and loving your child.
Not by handing away like a grenade that is not going to go off if you're not around.
Yeah.
Right?
So if that's any kind of conversation that you can have, then there could be a way to save things.
Yeah.
Because I bet you she doesn't know what the hell is going on with her.
She's not talking.
I'm guessing she's not refusing to talk because she knows what's wrong and wants to torture you.
She's refusing to talk because she genuinely has no idea what's going on, but she feels like she's just completely lost herself.
You can find a way to rejoin these separated or broken parts of her.
I agree with that.
It's a hell of a task.
It is.
If she wants to call in, I'm happy to talk to her.
I'll talk to anyone, particularly if there's a baby involved.
If she wants to call in, I promise I will not blame her.
I said some harsh things about her, and her behavior is appalling, don't get me wrong.
It's crazy, but I don't get a strong sense that there's calculation involved in it or that there's cruelty involved in it.
I think that there is just a genuinely cut off from herself situation.
Yeah.
And you said evil.
Now, the evil arises when she has the knowledge and refuses to get better.
And I don't think that she has even the knowledge.
Interesting.
Now, if you have the knowledge, like, to take an example I've used before, but again, it's always new listeners, the example is this.
You're not a bad doctor if you don't prescribe antibiotics in 1850 because they don't exist yet.
Not only you have no knowledge, you have no access, no capacity, but if you don't prescribe antibiotics now, And I know they're overprescribed, but you know, just to use the analogy.
Yes.
For the moment.
Now there's a problem if you don't prescribe them.
And so once you have knowledge, you gain moral responsibility.
But I don't think she has any knowledges yet, which is why she's not talking.
Yes.
And the big challenge is the finite amount of time to have.
To have the conversation.
Well, that's why it's pretty urgent that you do it now, right?
Yes, I agree.
And again, if I can help in any way, I'm happy to.
Thank you.
You know, she'll be a million times better off if she talks to me or if you can manage that.
It's tough.
And the reason is not because I'm some genius.
It's just because I'm not wedded and facing this straight on with all of the fight-or-flight hormones coursing through my system.
So, I may be able to help or maybe the therapist can work through all this kind of stuff.
I mean, I'm not a therapist.
Yeah, if she wants to have a conversation with me, I certainly would be happy and I bet you I can connect those wires for her.
I would hope so, that she has to take that step as well.
And, you know, if she wants to listen to the last part of this, like just this part where we're sort of not the earlier part where, you know, we're indulging in some much-needed outrage venting, but the part where this connection.
I mean, I really had to ascribe moral responsibility to my parents for what they did so that I could be free to act differently.
Yes, I agree with that.
Thank you.
Well, that's most of what I wanted to say.
Is there anything you wanted to add?
Yeah, I just, I hope, and what's been interesting is, and the reason I made the comment about, you know, she has to take the step.
We all know this in life, or at least I've realized this in my life, is you have to overcome the demons yourself.
Somebody else taking them away does not.
Yeah.
You got to see them first though, right?
Correct.
You got to know where to aim the arrows.
And I, yeah, it's funny because if, if we look at this as an act of cruelty, then, you know, and earlier I was saying, and I'm aware of this, I was saying, well, if it's just like, she just doesn't want to have the baby, then, then right.
But if we look at it through this lens, it's almost like this is an act of love.
To, you know, run!
Mommy's being possessed!
Something like that, right?
In which case, I think there's hope, because if she's in an odd way acting out of love, then she just needs to connect those wires and... I mean, we have something to work with if the emotion is there!
And better now than after the baby's born!
Yes, yes.
Right?
Because then, like, if she can work through this stuff now, and I'm sure she can, then she has the capacity to deal with this stuff and then will be emotionally available to bond with the child, which means that you can't treat it in a cruel way any more than you normal person, like, sets fire to their own hand.
So it is almost like, yeah, you know what?
I'm actually, yeah, here's a 180 for me, man, and I'm very, very happy to have had that potential illumination.
But yeah, here's my 180.
That if this is an act of love, then she just has to deal with the cause of it.
And it could be that she will be able to break the cycle with having her heart really open to the birth of your child.
Hey, sometimes these calls are quite a journey.
Yeah, of course.
Good.
Good.
Yeah, I hope so.
I really hope so.
I don't I want to encourage her.
The therapist has suggested, both the therapist and the doctor have looked directly at her and said, would you be interested in pursuing therapy for this?
You know, because they can see the visual terror on her face and the not excitement, not excited situation.
And she has said, Oh, I'll be okay.
Like kind of sloughed it off.
Sorry, I'm just thinking this now.
Sorry to interrupt.
But I was just thinking about how I think it was starting in the late 60s, early 70s, there was a whole slew of evil baby movies.
Right?
So I'm just like, there was Rosemary's Baby, right?
There was a terrifying novel.
I think it was called It or something like that.
And it was, I still remember the picture.
It was like a baby carriage with claws coming out the side.
There was, oh, the Damien, the Omen, right?
Yeah.
Like, there were these... Child's play, Chucky.
Yeah, Chucky.
Evil, evil babies.
Evil, evil children.
And it's still a very common theme.
And it was really after, I think, parenting took a real nosedive in the 60s, and for some personal responsibility, some just societal.
And so it's interesting, yeah, with the growth of single mothers and the growth of dysfunctional families, we have this evil child motif.
That is going on.
You know, like the kid with the little Amish cap and the, you know... Yeah, no, it's...
It's very interesting.
So it might be part of just a larger cultural phenomenon, because I don't remember that in the past.
I don't remember a lot of those kinds of movies, like Evil Babies.
Right.
Yeah, that is kind of a thing.
That has been kind of a thing.
And maybe it's part of a general zeitgeist about parents blaming kids for their own immorality, therefore evil baby.
Baby causes evil.
Yeah, I would say give it a shot with her.
I mean, I'm happy to give it a shot with her.
A therapist can give it a shot with her, but she might be on the verge of an incredible breakthrough and a real crack of the cycle.
I hope so, and I can see that, but she needs to take the step.
Yeah, well, be a leader.
Yes, sir.
Be a leader.
Now's the time.
There's the biblical thing.
The man is the leader of the family.
And I think that that's true.
Women lead in other things, for sure.
Women lead in a wide variety of things.
And I think that the leadership is shared, but it's not identical.
And there's even overlap, but it's not identical.
Got it.
So you need to really be a leader here and say, you know, we can get everything you want.
You can be a fulfilled wife, you can be a mother, but you're going to have to listen, you're going to have to take some advice, and you're going to have to respect some outside authority because you're lost at the moment.
And when you're lost, you listen for the whistle of the people who are coming to find you and, you know, obviously don't be a bully, but be a leader in this situation because this is a make-or-break moment.
Yes.
All right.
Will you let me know how it goes?
Keep me posted?
Yeah.
Thank you for the conversation.
I appreciate it.
You're very welcome.
I will send you the audio for this right away so you can play some of it to your wife or at least listen to it again.
And again, anything I can do to help, just let me know.
Thanks as always for everything.
Take care, man.
Bye. Bye.
Bye.
Well, thank you so much for enjoying this latest free domain show on philosophy.
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