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April 11, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:23:00

"I Blew Over $100,000 on Prostitutes - And I'm Lonely!" Freedomain Call In

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	All right, so Rick, what's on your mind?
	Well, as I said in my email, I'm a pretty isolated person, and that's in large part due to my own choices and reactions to things that have happened to me in the past that I haven't dealt with very well.
	I wanted, if I could, to get some of your feedback and help on how to look at some of these things.
	I've been a long-time listener.
	You know, everyone says that, and then they say the most outlandish things when we first start talking.
	Do you know what you've said so far, Rick, that's been outlandish?
	Please tell me.
	Sure.
	So you say that you're an isolated person and you blamed yourself.
	Well, I don't want to be the type of person that thinks of themselves as a victim and projects But what you're already doing is you're putting the conclusion at the beginning, right?
	Begging the question.
	Begging the question, you're saying, well, because I have this attitude towards even the possibility that I'm a victim, I'm going to take certain things off the table.
	Right?
	And my guess is that you were victimized by someone in the past, probably a parent, that you were victimized in the past by somebody who was himself or herself, pretending to be a victim.
	And therefore, you view victimhood as something dangerous, so you avoid it, which means you pile a massive amount of responsibility on yourself for where you are in life.
	As always, you're the master of deductive thinking.
	Yeah.
	So who was the victim?
	Who was the cry bully in your history?
	My mom.
	Go on.
	Well, I'm 38 now.
	Right now my parents divorced when I was about eight, nine years old.
	What I know of that relationship and my understanding, she got involved in that marriages as a means of securing a kind of a safe, secure landing as she started her life as an adult and got out of an alcoholic family life, living on a farm.
	Back where I'm from.
	I'm Canadian.
	I live out west.
	And I'm originally from the same province as where you're living right now.
	And I've lived out here for about eight years.
	I'm not sure why we're doing the geographical tour of Rick at the moment, because we started with your mom.
	And then you kind of jumped off the whole topic and took me on a tour, the dotted line tour of your travels.
	So let's get back to your mom.
	Your mom got out of a family situation where her parent or one of both parents was an alcoholic, is that right?
	Her father.
	Okay, so her father was an alcoholic.
	How old was she when she married your dad?
	20 years old.
	20 years old.
	Okay.
	So she was mostly unprocessed trauma from her history, I would assume, right?
	Pardon me.
	She was 20 when she had me.
	She was 18 when they married.
	Right.
	So off the sinking shipwreck of an addictive family system, she grabs at your dad and gets married at 18, right?
	Right.
	And he was, You know, predictably a pretty broken individual.
	His father died when he was six of cancer, so he grew up without any kind of meaningful father figure in his life.
	His mother remarried a man that he was at odds with his entire life.
	And so, not really great father material.
	Right.
	He was abusive toward me physically.
	Since then, he has taken responsibility for that fact, and I'm actually closer to him today than I am her.
	And what does it mean when you say, I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to know what it means, Rick, when you say that he's taken responsibility for it?
	Well, he's told me that he admits that it was wrong for him to, you know, haul me out into the garage and spank me in the middle of winter, you know, where I could hear my own screams and Echo and all this kind of stuff, so that's meant a lot.
	The divorce was a shock to his system, and of the two of them, he did more to look at his life and his part in the divorce than my mother did.
	And did your mother know, I assume that she did know, that your father was beating you in this way?
	And I say beating because I know you said spanking, and I'm happy to be corrected, but I'm aware that I'm shifting it to beating because dragging you out to a garage seems pretty premeditated.
	It sounds pretty conscious.
	It sounds pretty harsh.
	But I'm certainly happy to stay with spanking, but it strikes me as more of a beating.
	That's correct.
	It's a beating.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So your mother knew that this was going on, right?
	He did this in front of her.
	And how often would this happen?
	Uh, I only have one really clear memory of this kind of thing happening.
	I'm, I'm, I'm going to go up to like, like three times.
	Uh, but, but I do know that I've, that I, that I feared my father, uh, all through the time that they were married.
	Um, Third is anger.
	I used to have dreams of having two fathers, one with an evil one, he was wearing a black t-shirt, and the good one was wearing a white t-shirt, and the black one was trying to abduct me, and the father in the white t-shirt was trying to rescue me.
	So, yeah.
	He did these kinds of beatings three times.
	How else did he frighten you as a child?
	That's a good question.
	I mean, was he verbally abusive?
	Was he just kind of physically intimidating?
	Did he withdraw?
	Did he punish through silence?
	He certainly withdrawed and sort of neglected emotionally.
	Like my mother would want him to engage with me more.
	He was and still is like a recreational hunter.
	And so she would kind of stick me with him while he would kind of take me out.
	We lived in a rural area at that time and he had hunting dogs that he would take out in the pickup truck and I would come with him.
	This wasn't really time when we would, like, sit and talk or get to know one another.
	This was time just sort of, like, spent sitting in silence while he'd, like, release the dogs into the bush and listen for them to pick up on, like, a deer or something and start sort of, like, baying and chasing after the deer.
	And it was just kind of Really boring, honestly, and there was a lot of... I'm sorry I shouldn't laugh, but I've just sort of jumped in here.
	So when I was 15 or 16, I went to go and visit my father in South Africa, and he took me on this lengthy hike up these incredibly steep mountains.
	Now, he, of course, hiked for a living.
	He was very fit.
	This is sort of prior to me becoming a lot more fit in sort of my mid to late teens.
	And it was a bit of a harsh Go for me, doing this stuff.
	And I remember climbing.
	I remember him being very, very far ahead of me.
	And I remember thinking, so basically I'm just standing on a mountain in Africa.
	Kind of half alone, you know?
	It just seemed very strange to me.
	I also remember being enormously thirsty.
	Because it's Africa.
	It's hot.
	And it was a lot of exertion.
	And I had not reached physical maturity at this point.
	And I remember him getting so impatient with me being thirsty.
	I don't think he'd brought enough water.
	Frankly, I know he hadn't brought enough water 'cause you shouldn't be that thirsty when you're hiking.
	And I remember he sort of reached down and he picked up a stone and he said, "Put this in your mouth, suck it, "and the spit will make you feel less thirsty." And I'm like, that does not put any additional hydration into my system, you know?
	It's like thinking you're eating because you cough up a loogie and swallow it again.
	Like, this is not a meal.
	It's not a meal.
	But I also remember being quite struck by how primitive and, in a sense, Stone Age it was.
	Like, here, suck on this rock.
	It's like, oh.
	I guess that's a fairly good analogy for your parenting style, I suppose.
	But yeah, it is odd when you're kind of out in the woods or out in the bush with your father and he's not a great conversationalist.
	It's pretty weird.
	Yeah.
	You're bringing back memories for me because my father, he was a trucker and I can remember Really similar responses when I would complain I was thirsty on long drives with him, too, and there'd be, like, similar silence and... He keeps a bucket of rocks in the car.
	I'm sorry, I shouldn't say that, you know?
	Just like, oh, like, drink your saliva.
	Swallow your saliva, son.
	Swallow your saliva, son.
	That's how we do it.
	Right.
	Like, that's some kind of survivalist trick that'll just make your biological needs just go away, you know?
	Absolutely.
	I was waiting for him to like, here, drink a bag of your own pee, it'll be great.
	Yeah.
	It's terrible.
	I mean, listen, I'm not on, you shouldn't coddle kids overly, and it's fine if they get tired and all that kind of stuff.
	But this, I didn't pack enough water, so suck on a rock.
	It's like, boy, Africa's beautiful.
	I'm not sure my relationship.
	He also had me up on his roof.
	He had a, I guess a garage or some sort of shed in the back which had a corrugated iron roof that I was supposed to sand down and paint.
	in this blinding hot sun.
	And I remember being up there.
	I remember having a little tinny radio, listening to it just scrape, scrape, scrape, scrape, because you had to sand all the rust away before you could paint it and all that.
	And I remember the Joan Jett song Crimson and Clover coming on and really enjoying that song, but feeling a little bit like a coolie, you know, feeling a little bit like a surf, like a sanding and scrubbing and painting kind of guy.
	And it just seemed kind of odd, you know, like, I mean, Here we are, you're in the house, and I'm sanding things on the roof, and I'm not sure we're bonding the way that we could.
	Right.
	Yeah, so, I mean, I... Like, there's this thing, and I know it's sort of like another cliché, like, as a victim of...
	No, you don't want to.
	They want you to.
	You don't want to at all.
	In order to maintain a relationship with dysfunctional people, you have to blame yourself, because they can't accept self-criticism.
	One of the basic tells of somebody who's really dysfunctional is they can't accept criticism.
	And I mean valid criticism, not just abusive criticism or whatever.
	And so when you're in a relationship with dysfunctional people, You have to take on all of the ownership for that dysfunction.
	I remember having a girlfriend.
	I remember very clearly recognizing that moment when the relationship really began to tank, just recognizing that the only way I can continue in this relationship is if I take blame for all of our conflicts.
	That's the price I'll have to pay for continuing in this relationship, is that I will have to take The blame for all of our conflicts.
	It will always be my fault.
	It will always be my issue.
	It will either be what I said or the way I said it, whatever the hell that means, right?
	There will always be this magic, gynocentric spell that will cast me down into the fiery pit of blame while she ascends to the fiery heaven of blamelessness.
	And I just remember thinking, OK, well, that's the price.
	To stay in this relationship, I gotta take 100% because she couldn't handle any self-criticism.
	It's very strange.
	And just by the by, right, she was always nagging at me to keep things tidy, to tidy up, to keep things tidy, to tidy.
	I had to go and pick up something, I don't know, 6 or 12 months after we broke up.
	And she was still living in the place we were living in before.
	By God, it was a complete pigsty.
	I mean, it really was.
	It was like, it was a complete pigsty.
	And I was like, oh, OK, I think I get how this works now.
	It had nothing to do with a value for tidying.
	It was just a way to nag.
	But anyway, OK, so that probably is... It's not that you want to defend dysfunctional or abusive people.
	It's just that if you want to stay around them, You have to blame yourself and you have to exonerate them.
	Otherwise, if you bring rational criticisms to them, most times, they will explode.
	They're so fragile.
	They're kryptonite to themselves.
	Their hand grenades rolled into a tent.
	And they will simply freak out and they will either verbally attack you or they will withdraw or they'll become hysterical or they'll go stone cold or whatever it is, right?
	So the price of being in a relationship, quote, relationship with dysfunctional people is you have to blame yourself for everything.
	So it's not your preference.
	It's just the requirement.
	Yeah.
	So, um, like that's why I feel particularly blessed on, on like the side of
	things with with my father that that he does live in that reality that Like now He's willing to say Oh God, like I fucked up so bad and and I have I'm willing to have You have not internalized that right because if you had you wouldn't start off this conversation by blaming yourself for your isolation as an adult Let me give you an example.
	So let me say, let's just imagine this.
	Imagine that your father took you to live on a desert island when you were a baby, right?
	And on that desert island, you learned some skills, right?
	You learned how to climb coconut trees.
	You learned how to desalinate water.
	You learned how to skin muskrats or whatever the hell's living on the island.
	But what you didn't learn, say, was English.
	Maybe he was mute.
	Some reason why you didn't learn English because you were living on this desert island, right?
	And then when you come back to civilization and someone says, well, why don't you know English?
	You would say, because I was raised on a desert island and I was not taught English, right?
	That would not be too complicated.
	You wouldn't say, well, I seem to have this weird inability with the English language, right?
	You would look at the courses as to why you don't speak English, and you would say, well, I was raised without speaking English on a desert island.
	I had no access to learning materials, so clearly I don't speak English, right?
	But if you say it's somehow, if you say somehow it's my fault, but I don't speak English, so to speak, right, then it would be that there's something that hasn't connected with your history, right?
	Well, I mean, I have to say, like, if that's true, it's not for a lack of trying, because I always say that my willingness to get into, like, 12-step groups and go to,
	you know, some therapy throughout you know, some therapy throughout my 20s was inspired more by him than any of the life choices of my mother, who just kind of went along as if nothing was going on.
	Oh, so she blames your dad for everything that went wrong?
	been tricked by this monster that-- Oh, so she blames your dad for everything that went wrong?
	100%.
	First time for everything.
	Along with her other two husbands.
	Oh, so all three husbands are at fault, and nothing's wrong with her, right?
	Yeah, that's the message that I get.
	Anyway, I don't know what she would say today, because I kind of defude from her about four years ago now.
	So a lot of my ruminating and internal violent vitriol is far more directed at her than it is my father.
	Well, except that he pursued and married her and had children with her, right?
	Exactly.
	He did choose her, right?
	Right.
	Tell me this, Rick.
	that they made of things.
	It just seems that he's living more in this solution than she is. - Right.
	Tell me this, Rick, tell me about good conversations that you remember having as a child.
	And I don't, by good I don't mean always like funny or, but just good decent conversations.
	Like, I mean, to give you an example, right?
	So I was at, and I actually put this in my novel, The God of Atheists.
	When I was up at summer camp, I used to get sent up to Camp Bolton for weeks and weeks when I was a kid in the summers.
	It was very subsidized and it was not actually, it was a pretty good camp.
	But I actually became kind of friends with this camp counselor.
	And I've never been much, I wasn't much of a sleeper as a kid, so I'd sort of be out there.
	And I remember sitting out front of the cabin where all the other kids were sleeping in these bunk beds.
	And he was out there and we were just chatting, just having a great conversation about life.
	We talked about God.
	And I do remember him telling me that everyone thinks that Frankenstein is the monster.
	It is like the bald-necked, green-eyed, giant, forehead monster.
	But Frankenstein is actually the doctor who creates him.
	The book Frankenstein is about...
	And I remember that really struck me, and of course it wasn't until later until I realized that that means that the parents are responsible for the monstrosities in the kids for the most part.
	And so that's an example of a conversation that I clearly remember 40 years later.
	Do you have, and it's not the only one, it's just sort of one that pops to mind, do you have memories of Conversations that were good when you were a kid.
	Like wisdom imparted?
	Anything.
	Anything.
	Anything where it kind of flowed, it wasn't effortful, it wasn't challenging, and it wasn't where you were both talking about a video game you were playing at the same time or a movie that you just saw.
	Like something where there's a spontaneous generation and share of ideas that flows of its own accord.
	It doesn't have to necessarily be a big imparting of wisdom, but just a good conversation.
	Well, something that jumps to mind and like, it doesn't really fit the criteria of something that was spontaneous because it was, it was something that, that he, he sat down and explained to my sister and I, after he had gone to like a Christian, um, uh, A retreat weekend for divorcees that uh, I was about 10 years old I think she would have been eight by that time.
	They had been divorced for about two years and he just all of a sudden after having this like Really healing experience he he just wanted to like explain his his life to us and And that was where the whole bit where like he he told me about um Growing up without a father and what it had meant to him that, you know, his dad had died.
	Like, I didn't know his dad had died when he was that young, like six years old.
	Like, I knew the man that... It's not the cat that does it, though.
	We are as mammals.
	Well able to process the inevitable vicissitudes and disasters of natural life.
	Like cancer is getting hit by a bus or whatever it is.
	We can handle that.
	It's not the death that causes the trauma.
	It's whether the death is processed.
	It's whether the kid is allowed to grieve.
	It's like all of these things.
	It's not the natural disasters that beset the trauma.
	Yeah, it's what's done in the void.
	Yeah, yeah, that's right.
	Of that, yeah.
	And those conversations are just amazing.
	And good for your dad.
	My dad did that with me once too when we were on a bus from Toronto to Montreal.
	He told me about his life.
	There's an old Paul Simon song, Slip Sliding Away.
	It's got a great line about this.
	It's about people who just can't connect or whatever.
	And he says, I know a man in my hometown here.
	He was passionate.
	I'm just trying to remember.
	And I know a father who had a son.
	He longed to tell them all the reasons for the things he'd done.
	He came a long way just to explain.
	He kissed his boy as he lay asleep and then he turned around and headed home again.
	Oh, it's a very sad song.
	A very, very sad song.
	And this unburdening of parents to their children, it can be a little selfish, because it's usually not a two-way street.
	In other words, let me explain myself to you, let me tell you all about my life, but there's usually not that kind of, and now that I'm done, let me hear how this affected you.
	Right.
	I think that's true.
	I believe that that weekend that he had gone on was the first time in his life that he had been able to have conversations like that.
	Right.
	And so he was kind of like a kid with a new toy.
	And I remember kind of describing this to a guy who I had turned to as a mentor for a few years and he said like, that's a hell of a thing to To talk with such a young kid about.
	Yeah.
	And that struck me as an odd response, because I thought my dad had done, like, a really great thing for me that day.
	Ten is young.
	Ten is damn young.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	But he would get relief out of that, right?
	So he would feel better telling you about that.
	And so it's still about him, right?
	And I know people who've gone to these kind of self-help seminars.
	So I used to write all these novels.
	I've written like 30 plays and stuff, right?
	And I had someone who went to one of these self-help seminars and that person then came to my house at one o'clock, well not the house, the room I was in, in a house, when I was doing my master's degree, came at one o'clock in the morning, pounding on the door, it's like, oh Steph, I've never actually read your work!
	Like, give me a novel to read, right?
	I want to read your work.
	You know, it's just so important to you and I've known you for years and I've never read your novel.
	So he, you know, I cracked open my book Just Poor and he was reading through it and it's like, you know, I really want to read your work.
	I want to talk to you about it.
	And that was it.
	Never happened again.
	You know, we were up half the night.
	He was reading my work.
	Oh, this is fantastic.
	Oh man, this is hilarious or this is moving or whatever.
	And then boom, you know, it vanishes, goes.
	And that's, Pretty rough, right?
	So for him, it's like, oh, I feel better if I do this without necessarily saying, OK, what's it like for my son?
	And is it going to be reciprocal?
	Or do I just get to blurp out all of the stuff that's troubling me, dump it in my kid, and then saunter off whistling?
	Yeah, yeah.
	That's kind of been something that I've Took me a long time to realize, like, that... Like, I don't know if narcissistic is the word to describe it, but there is kind of, like, this, like... I mean, yeah, the technical stuff is tough.
	I mean, it's just kind of selfish.
	And that's what bothers me.
	Is it, like, is it selfish?
	Or is it just that, like, they can't wrap their mind around anybody else's feelings?
	You just gave the definition of selfish.
	Except you said Kant, right?
	Can't.
	No.
	I don't, I don't believe that's true.
	I don't believe that's true.
	It's like, it's like when people talk about physical abuse from parents, right?
	And they say, well, my, you know, my mom or my dad, they just boil over and they just lash out and they just hit me.
	They were out of control.
	And my question is always the same.
	Okay.
	Did they do that in the mall?
	Did they do that at the school?
	Did they, would they have done that in front of a policeman?
	And the answer is always the same.
	Oh God, no.
	You know, my mom, was sweet as sugar when we were out in public.
	Everyone thought she was like the coolest, greatest mom.
	I mean, when I went to boarding school at six, she would come up and visit sometimes.
	She took me out for an afternoon, we had lunch, and then I was running around a water fountain, and I slipped and I fell in the water fountain.
	And I thought, oh man, I'm gonna get beaten from here down to the end of the street, right?
	I was terrified.
	And my mom was like, oh, what a shame, you know?
	No problem, we'll go and pick you up a shirt and some shorts and we'll just put this stuff in a bag.
	She was perfectly reasonable.
	Why?
	I mean, if we'd have been home, I mean, as I've said before, when I was home playing with a friend and I put a cup of water on a bureau table, in the house and it left one of those little pale rings because there was some water soaked through the varnish or something like that.
	And I was literally beaten within half an inch of my life.
	And why?
	What was the difference?
	Well the difference was that there were people At the fountain where I fell in the water, but there was no one at home.
	So she could indulge in her rage and her viciousness at home when there were no witnesses.
	But when we were out in public, she was always incredibly charming.
	And everyone was like, oh, you know, you look like you have such wonderful time with your kids.
	And she was like, oh my God, you know?
	But at home, it was a different matter, right?
	And so when you say, well, they're just unable, of course they're able to figure out what other people feel.
	Of course they are.
	I mean, if they have such an inability to read their environment, like, let's say your dad's driving and a cop says, whoop, whoop, like, pull over, right?
	What does he do?
	I don't know what he wants.
	I have no idea how to read this situation.
	Did he ever, like, laugh at a funeral scene in a movie?
	Did he ever, you know, cry at a comedy?
	Of course he knew how to read people.
	Of course he did.
	It's just a matter of whether he bothered to do it with you?
	Or whether reading people and assessing the situation is that for people who have potential power over him, which his children don't have, at least when they're children, so does he not indulge in reading other people with his kids because he has power over his kids, so why would he bother?
	Right?
	The slave reads the mood of the master.
	The master doesn't read the mood of the slave, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, I definitely, um, I definitely see that pattern in terms of like my mother's behavior, because, um, the moment when I became a hardcore Stefan Molyneux fan was, was when you kind of first described one of those events.
	I remember it and identified with it so much where you're talking about, like, if you're having an argument at home, And then the phone rings, and then the tone just completely turns sicky saccharine sweet.
	Hello?
	Oh yeah.
	My mother thought if her boyfriend was calling, she'd go from screaming banshee to phone sex operator in that, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	And, and, and you, uh, have kind of had similar discussions with other people.
	And I remember when I listened to that show, that was the moment where I was like, okay, this guy's got me, he's got me for the long haul.
	I'm going to listen to every single thing that he puts out with like, as soon as he puts it out and, and he is so onto something because like I tell you, Stefan, like I, I, uh, I hit the real world, you know, like I left home and, um, I just fell straight on my face.
	It was within a few short years that I had to go to therapy.
	And so John Bradshaw was a big deal.
	I was going to sex addict synonymous meetings because I I made the decision to give my virginity to a prostitute, and it was just a shit show.
	Everything was a mess.
	What led up to that?
	Well, I was about 21 at the time, and I was running a bed in a basement.
	There's some people who are like a friend of a friend.
	He was a young couple.
	I was working a job at a hog barn.
	That was fucking traumatic.
	Because there was, like, biosecurity at this place, but it wasn't working, so all these pigs were dying around me.
	You know, like, it was disgusting.
	Like, they would prolapse anally, and then I would have to euthanize them and dry their dead bodies out in the snow to be picked up for protein processing.
	And it was just a fucking horror show, and filthy, and that was how my adult life started.
	Boy, that's going to keep you away from bacon for a while.
	Funnily enough, I'm not a vegetarian.
	If that doesn't turn you into a vegetarian, nothing will.
	It's like the old Paul McCartney quote, that if slaughterhouses had glass walls, nobody would eat meat.
	I just I just took it that like, okay, this is the real world.
	I've got to harden up and People have had to do monstrous things all throughout history and Sorry, just a sec Excuse me.
	I'm sorry.
	I just took a sip of something and it went a little haywire on me, but I'm back Yeah, I like I just took it as like, okay, this is reality.
	Like this is what I've been kind of coddled from.
	This is what everybody else can't really stomach about themselves.
	And so like, no, I'm not going to fight against it.
	I'm just going to accept it as a fact of life.
	It's not something I need to get on a high horse about.
	I wanted to pause here before we get to the prostitute thing, because it's very interesting what you're doing here.
	Look, there are facts of life, but that doesn't mean you have to expose yourself to them all the time, right?
	I mean, it's a fact of life that Countless babies get aborted.
	That doesn't mean that you have to go poking around in the medical waste, right?
	It's a fact of life that people die in car accidents.
	That doesn't mean you've got to cruise around looking for car accidents and then, you know, stick your face in the broken windows, right?
	Right.
	So there are facts of life, but what's interesting here about this one, Rick, is that you were repulsed, but you ordered yourself to stay.
	And that's very interesting.
	And you converted it into a kind of virtue, right?
	I'm just staring into the bald face of reality, unvarnished, unvacillined on the lens, straight up, no airbrushing, no Photoshop.
	This is reality.
	It's like, yeah, but there are lots of things in reality.
	You could have gone to work at a butterfly conservatory.
	That's reality, too.
	It's just there aren't anally prolapsed pigs falling over that you've got to drag out by the legs, right?
	So it means that you were used to looking at horror and mastering yourself in the looking at that horror.
	It means you didn't have any control, I think, it means you didn't have any control over the horrors you experienced as a child, so you learned the only control that you had was to tame and master those horrors, and that's the skill set that allowed you to, quote, survive in this slaughterhouse.
	It was a slaughterhouse, right?
	No, it was a pig barn.
	It was a pig barn.
	Kind of like a slaughterhouse, though, in some ways, right?
	Yeah.
	Like, you'd have to euthanize to protect the rest of the herd.
	And, uh... Because if you don't like it, why would you stay?
	I didn't feel like I had many other options, because my grades weren't good.
	I had no... I kind of think that you may have had a couple of other options, right?
	In truth, yes.
	In truth, yes.
	Right.
	But that's what you felt, right?
	I mean, you felt that that's all you were worth was dragging pigs with their asses hanging out, out into the snow, right?
	Correct.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So how did this get you to the prostitute?
	Well, I mean, likewise, I didn't feel like I was worth Dating or anything else, you know?
	No sex, right?
	Because you don't go to the prostitute for love.
	In fact, anybody who pretends... I talked to a guy once who went to a prostitute and tried to kiss her, and she's like, nope, nope, nope, nope, that's not what I'm here for.
	Oh yeah, I've had that fucking experience a lot of times.
	I mean, some of them will, some of them won't.
	I mean, it's so goddamn dark, I can't believe I'm This is my life, but- Wise, right?
	Yes, I haven't done this in over four months, and I've had periods where it's been like years of going without that kind of transaction, but at that time, I remember I just, I didn't want to be a virgin anymore.
	And I felt like if I just had, or I told myself, I rationalized, That if I just have the experience... Yeah, you prime the pump and just off we go, right?
	Right.
	I told myself a part of my problem, like talking to girls and things like that, was that I just didn't have the experience.
	That if I can just kind of get over that hump, I'll be able to tell myself that All right, I've crossed that threshold and that I can kind of keep it a secret from myself and go from there.
	And it was just this block or this thing that I said to myself, as long as I can just get past the first one, that'll give me some kind of, like, Momentum, which it didn't.
	It gave me the opposite.
	Oh yeah, that was terrible.
	And I just want to say for anybody who's listening who is anywhere near where I was at that time, do not take that step.
	Please, for any of your listeners, if I can be of any use in any measure the way that all the other callers that have had the courage to call into you, don't take that step, people.
	What is it making you feel at the moment, Rick?
	Oh, it's just so fucking tragic, Stefan.
	Like, God damn it.
	It's, uh, it's gotta be one of the single biggest mistakes I ever made in my life.
	You know, and I've heard other callers, um, share with you about what they're doing and all I can hear is like the The pain that they're hiding, the delusion, the fucking... Just gross rationalizations that I'm guilty of, too, and, um... I feel sad for him, but I'm also angry at him, you know?
	I remember there was a caller that, uh... Yeah, he was talking about trying to, um... Marry a prostitute who was an immigrant, and everything like that, and I, like...
	Oh, it just hurt.
	It just hurt to hear him be just, you know, so deep in it.
	And, like I have to say, I have a lot of respect for you, like, as a father being willing to hear out somebody like that, that not even willing to kind of confront that in an honest enough way to admit that they're making, that not even willing to kind of confront that in an honest enough way to admit
	But it's.
	Yeah, man, it's...
	I don't know where to go from here, but yeah.
	Well, I'm curious why you're so horrified at something that happened 15 years ago where you were trying to make a good decision with no tutoring that I can see at all.
	Well, because where it led me.
	No, no, no, but I mean in terms of you were trying to make a good decision, You weren't... It wasn't like you saying, well, I don't want to go to work at the pig barn, so I'm gonna go rob a bank, right?
	It wasn't that.
	You're like, okay, well, I'll just break the ice with regards to sex and maybe it'll get easier after that, right?
	I mean, it was a bad decision, but it wasn't a bad decision that, without any feedback, is completely stone obvious from the outset.
	Does that make sense?
	Oh, I felt like it was so obvious that it was a stupid thing to do.
	No, no, no.
	If it was a stupid thing to do, you wouldn't have done it.
	So you had a reason.
	I mean, you had lust, of course.
	You're a young man.
	But you had a reason in your mind, which we talked about, which you told me about, right?
	I'll just get through this and it'll get easier to talk to women.
	Maybe it's because I'm so obsessed with sex and so on, right?
	So you had a theory.
	And it wasn't like in Crime and Punishment Raskolnikov has a theory that he can become a Napoleon by killing a porn broker and stealing her money and becoming powerful and using it for good, right?
	He has a theory that involves murder!
	And that's a bad theory all around, right?
	Now what you did was certainly not beneficial to you but You're blaming yourself more than you're blaming your father for beating you.
	Right?
	Like, how can you forgive your father for beating you, but not yourself for a non-obvious mistake?
	Why does your father get all of this forgiveness and reconciliation, and you have a good relationship with your father, but you don't have a good relationship with 21-year-old Rick?
	I'm not sure what I'm missing here.
	You didn't beat a child in the garage?
	You didn't beat a child in the garage?
	For one thing, your father hasn't beaten any children since then, but like, I, you know, as a therapy exercise last year, I, you know, And I did relapse after this, but I was doing an inventory and going over my past and trying to make a tally over the last, what is it, 17 years.
	And Stefan, I've gone back and made the mistake almost 100 times.
	Oh, you've been to prostitutes 100 times?
	If not more.
	Right.
	OK, so that clarifies things.
	I appreciate that.
	That's the guilt.
	OK.
	All right.
	All right.
	And you had a theory at the beginning that it was going to be better for you.
	That's what I cooked up.
	Hang on.
	And what's the theory about its effect now?
	How am I looking at it?
	At the fact that... Yeah, like, so you have... Everything we do, we have an idea about, right?
	Well, the idea is that I've wasted my life.
	That I... You know, I'm on the edge of 40, and I have all this wreckage in my past, but somehow along with that, like, I still have...
	Well, for one thing, admiration for people like you.
	And I'm so far away.
	Okay, I appreciate that.
	I want to bookmark that.
	But I do want to know what the thinking is when you go to a prostitute for the 50th, 60th, 70th, 80th time or whatever.
	You know that it's not going to be good, right?
	Or is it?
	I don't know.
	I've never been to a prostitute.
	It's compartmentalization.
	That's what addicts do.
	You don't play the tape to the end.
	You just are trying to escape the moment to some momentary pleasure.
	It's like on The Simpsons.
	And no, that's for, you know, it's like it's like on The Simpsons, like home future Homer can can worry about that, you know.
	But hang on.
	Is it is it physical lust that draws you to the prostitutes?
	In other words, you just want to have sex and you want to get your rocks off and that's how it goes?
	Yeah, it's my own brain juices are my drug of choice.
	And I would mix that in with usually And this is only in the last four years as well.
	I only got on to marijuana in the last four years, but I was going sober to prostitutes for off and on for 12 years beforehand or so.
	And so give me the, if you don't mind, just lift the lid on this sort of transaction, so give me the sort of soup to nuts When you decide to go and see a prostitute to the payment or the exit, how does that, you can skip over all of the sexual details, but I'm just kind of curious how this process works.
	And there's a reason I'll ask for this.
	There is a reason I'm asking for this, which I'll say in a sec.
	Okay.
	So the ritual.
	Okay.
	So you get triggered.
	Um, and they talk about this in like, like Patrick Carnes, uh, he calls it the bubble.
	You go into this, uh, kind of twisted reality.
	You know, it's like a bubble around your head, you're still seeing the world while you're looking through it, through this kind of... Okay, don't give me the abstract descriptions from other people, I just... So you say you get triggered, so what does that mean?
	Like something triggers your physical lust?
	I mean, usually I'm frustrated with something, some relationship or whatever, but like the actual activities Go online, you look at advertisements for girls who are posting, presumably they're posting themselves.
	They always say they're independent, but that can be true or not.
	We never know.
	I just, I just, you know, I mean, say today's day and age, you have like cell phones, you text back and forth, you establish price and place.
	We'll give you an approximate location to go to.
	You drive to that approximate location, we'll give you a specific Address within the vicinity, go to a door, knock on the door, the door opens.
	Wait, what's the approximate location for?
	So I would assume usually so they can kind of scope you out and see if they really want to.
	The interesting thing about a lot of these ads is they'll say no blacks, no Arabs.
	And so for a working girl, those are sort of dangerous ethnicities that they don't want to have interactions with.
	And also to see if you're serious about it, one of the things I'm guilty of is texting multiple girls at a time, depending on who gets back to me first.
	Because if there's one thing about both Johns and working girls as service providers is they're all addicts, right?
	And that means that they're flaky.
	When you're triggered, or you're craving and you want your drug, you want it as soon as possible.
	And so, like, you have a few ads or a few pictures that you really like, and you text them all, and then your brain sort of goes between, like, okay, I can get to this one first, but that one looked better, maybe I'll hold up for that one, but no, this one had a good price, and your brain is just fucking playing whack-a-mole between all these Really petty things that you're trying to balance out all at the same time.
	So a lot of people, yeah, they flake out on one another.
	They say they'll be there at a certain time, but then, oh, maybe you got a text from the one that you really wanted to go see because her appearance is more suiting to your tastes than the other.
	So you know, show that person.
	It's kind of like, Spinning plates, you know, like Rollo Tommasi talks about, you know, like dating, spin plates and kind of date how women date.
	It's a very accelerated kind of low-life version of that.
	All right.
	So then you go to the approximate location and then you get texted at the more detailed location?
	Yeah, it might be a hotel.
	It might be a condo.
	It might be a high-rise building.
	It could be in a good area.
	It could be in a bad area.
	And those are all things that may or may not influence my decision to actually follow through with it.
	But yeah, that's...
	Okay, so then you go, you knock and I assume that the woman, is she there alone usually?
	Is there someone there to vet you?
	Normally she's alone.
	I mean, if they're in a high rise it's usually a good indication that it's a person in the picture or at least Somebody that resembles the person in the picture.
	I mean, a lot of these working girls, they won't necessarily post pictures of themselves in their own body, but like, especially if she has tattoos, they'll like have some like Instagram model who also has like full body tattoos or something like that.
	But like, they also have to varying degrees, similar concerns about their own anonymity and, uh, So there's things like that.
	I mean, if it is in a high rise, you know, controlled access is usually camera at the front of the building.
	And like they might have another unit in the building.
	And I think a lot of like high end condos these days, like most are outfitted with Like access to that, that camera, like that, um, you can kind of like just watch the front door, like almost as like a channel on your TV.
	Right.
	So that might be one of the, like the shadiest things about this.
	Cause I never really know if anybody that I've gone to seen it was, was really as independent as, as they said, like, um, but they, the point is that they often say that because They know that a lot of these beta male Johns are out there hoping that they're not feeding into some kind of organized crime ring or something like that.
	And the truth is that we just never really know.
	I would also guess then that there's footage of you going to these places that's kept in case you ever become prominent, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	That's probably true.
	That's the thought that I'm just going to have to live with.
	Well, and maybe there's not.
	Maybe the secrecy or the anonymity is part of the service.
	Okay, so you go and then you pay ahead of time, you have the sex and then you just up and out, right?
	Yeah, usually.
	And do you have any problems with erections or is this whole process part of the sexual excitement?
	I mean, it depends where my physiology is at that time.
	Sex addicts can sometimes go a long time without sleep.
	Cause there's something in our physiology that, uh, when our body knows that we, uh, have a chance of, of, of, of having sex, it'll like feed us adrenaline and things like that.
	And so, um, there's this sort of like weird kind of hormonal edging that'll go on, not just like edging.
	And when it comes to like, uh, You know, trying to hold off, like, an orgasm, but also, like... Oh, like the sting-based tantric stuff?
	Yeah, okay.
	Yeah, yeah, so, like... Like, part of the thrill that gets people hooked on this is the... That ritual, that sense of the hunt, and, you know, like, the sort of, like, the taboo-ness of it all, and, like... So, like, if you've been...
	Kind of like running around and maybe coming close one or two times to actually following through on one of these appointments that you've claimed to have made.
	By the time you actually go through with one, you might have been up for more than 24 hours or something like this.
	So the actual sex Might not even be that good in terms of like how you're able to perform, so to speak.
	But I mean, again, like the girl, she doesn't really care.
	In most cases, she just kind of wants, you know, whatever I'm thinking, man, get out of my life, give me my money.
	And what does it run for this service?
	How much does it cost?
	Well, I mean, the going rate on this side of the country is usually about $300 an hour.
	For some reason, women of East Asian descent tend to charge a little less than that, but I think that's because they're kind of likely but I think that's because they're kind of likely being asked to –
	I should say, well, probably not even being asked, but being made to charge less and just see more customers for like $200, $220, somewhere in there.
	and And yeah.
	So you've dropped like 20 to 30 grand on this stuff?
	Plus whatever, right?
	I mean, over the last 18 years, it's way more than that.
	Way more than that.
	I thought you said you'd been a hundred times.
	Yeah, well, It, yeah, I mean, I mean, when it comes to, yeah, like, like you said, like transportation, gas, maybe like buying weed, maybe buying Viagra.
	I only really got into Viagra in my last kind of binge, but yeah, there, there are like, I mean, the cost when, when you also look at not just The service itself, but the other kind of impulse buys that you tend to make when you're in that state of mind.
	So like 50, 60,000?
	Oh no, like 100,000 easy.
	You spend 100,000 easy on this?
	Yeah.
	Like over the last 18 years, fuck yeah.
	I mean, I've blown inheritance, I've blown money that my mom had set aside.
	For my education, money that I was saving for myself once I finally got my shit together enough to get a decent job.
	Well, and you're isolated because of this secret, right?
	Oh, fuck yeah.
	And that's the price of secrets, right?
	They're like a moat around your life, around your heart.
	You can see through a glass darkly to other people, but you are carrying the bodies of a hundred hookers in your wake and you don't dance too well socially with others, right?
	Well, not only that, like being in recovery and therapy and trying to overcome all that secrecy is its own
	kind of gauntlet because when you do finally start taking the risk of letting people know, some of them prove themselves to be less trustworthy than others.
	And just by the by, since I know people will be curious about this, Rick, you are a good looking fellow.
	You know, the standard Jabba the Hutt, you know, tentacles and, you know, like, you're a good-looking guy and so it's not like it would be impossible.
	And you mentioned earlier that if you're frustrated in a relationship, did you mean by that a romantic relationship or a sexual relationship?
	Okay, I mean, yeah, it includes that, like any frustration in life, this is something you can sexualize.
	Right.
	- Right, did either of your parents have an affair? - That's not something that they've disclosed to me.
	I mean, I've disclosed with them that I have this disease.
	I've told everybody in my family.
	Alright, hang on.
	Did your mother work when you were growing up?
	Yeah, she worked at a bank all throughout my childhood until it Merged with another major bank in Canada and then she got bought out.
	Did you get exposed to pornography at a very young age?
	Fairly young.
	Yeah, fairly young.
	I think my first exposure to pornography was on the schoolyard.
	There was like this shredded porno mag that had been blowing around the schoolyard.
	One spring morning, I think it had been frozen in a snowbank somewhere, and I remember everybody freaking out and things like that.
	I mean, compared to some of the other kids that I was around, I think we were all exposed young.
	How old were you when you saw the magazine?
	When I saw my first magazine, I mean, when I got really, really interested in it, I would have been 12 or 13.
	I got arrested for shoplifting because I had my own little stash that I was accruing.
	I was punished to the fullest extent of the law.
	At what age?
	That would have been 13.
	I remember Pamela Anderson was big.
	He had stolen one of the magazines that she was in, and all this kind of thing.
	But at the time, my feelings and my thoughts around it was that, compared to my peers, I was getting into it rather late.
	Because I was kind of like an isolated beta male kid.
	I didn't have many friends of either gender.
	And yeah, like I wasn't in-- Did anything unusual happen when you were a child with regards to sexuality that you saw or that you experienced or anything like that?
	No, I wasn't molested.
	I think I just fell into
	The traps of being, like, a beta male son of a single mom, you know, who just... Like, both parents didn't have anything to say about sex, and I just kind of grew up sort of feral, you know, and all of the other influences on my generation at the time.
	No, no, no, no, come on.
	I mean, there's something else.
	There's got to be something else, because lots of people go through that experience, right?
	The question really is this, for me, which is, if you go and pay a woman $300 to have sex with you, you're saying that your sexual market value automatically is minus $300, right? you're saying that your sexual market value automatically is minus Naturally, right?
	Because that's the economics of it, right?
	Sure.
	So you have to pay $300 for sexual access, which means that you view yourself as having negative sexual market value, right?
	So the big question is, where did you end up with... because, I mean, you're a smart guy, you're a good-looking guy, you're an articulate guy, you can't hold a conversation about difficult topics, so I'll give you all of that.
	That's empirical.
	I'm with you on that.
	But something happened wherein you said to yourself one of two things.
	Either A, I have negative sexual market value but I need sex so I have to pay women for it or there's sexual gratification out of the humiliation of handing money over to a woman to have sex with you.
	In other words, there's a kind of masochism or that what you're really paying for is not the sex but the humiliation of having to pay for sex.
	The humiliation?
	Well, isn't that the result, right?
	I mean, if you go and pay a woman for sex, you're saying, well, what woman would want to have sex with me without me paying her?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So where does the humiliation, which is the end product of the addiction, right?
	Like the drunk who loses his family and his job, deep down doesn't think he deserves those things in the first place.
	The alcohol is just the methodology for getting rid of that which he does not feel he deserves, right?
	So if the end product of you paying for sex is the humiliation, it's certainly conceivable to me that that's what you're really paying for.
	I mean, I'm at a loss.
	I could be wrong, obviously.
	I'm just the guy talking here, but that's where my brain sort of goes.
	Transactionally speaking, that's where my brain goes.
	Honestly, I just wanted a woman to pay attention to me, you know, and to let me, let me touch her.
	Cause just women have always felt so goddamn far away.
	Okay.
	So, so, okay.
	So why do women feel far away to you?
	Um, I, uh, I'm going to say because my mother was more interested in her own I'm going to say because my mother was more interested in her own dating life than she ever was in, uh, either Right.
	How many, from your parents' divorce when you said you were 8 or 9 until you were 18 or so, how many boyfriends did your mother have?
	Until I was 18?
	I was 18.
	Roughly.
	It doesn't have to be.
	Well, I mean, at least four boyfriends that I know of before, no, five boyfriends that I know of before she married her second husband.
	So she dated a bit, right?
	Not massively, it's not like a conveyor belt, but she dated a bit, right?
	Yeah, I have no clue what she was doing on the weekends when...
	We were with my dad.
	Right.
	Okay, so now, Rick, here's the central question.
	Are you ready?
	Are you sitting comfortably?
	Oxygen masks may deploy from the ceiling right above you.
	Be sure to save yourself before anyone else in the room.
	Should I get a box Kleenex?
	No, just assume a crash position.
	Are you ready?
	Okay, go ahead.
	In your perception, what did your mother have to offer her boyfriends?
	Why were they dating?
	late.
	Uh, cause she was hot.
	Anything else? - Yes.
	Anything else?
	Was she a great cook?
	Was she a great conversationalist?
	Did she run a good household?
	Was she charitable?
	Was she wise?
	Was she knowledgeable?
	Was she caring?
	Was she thoughtful?
	Was she loving?
	- What other values than the eternal whole did she bring to the table?
	Hmm.
	Why were the men coming around?
	I feel like I should have a good answer for this.
	I bet you, you know, you have an answer.
	Whether a good answer is a truthful answer, not a proper answer, right?
	Why were the men coming around your mom?
	What were the qualities that attracted, or quality, that attracted the men to your mom?
	Well, I mean...
	For her second husband, I think he had a thing for white women.
	And he was what then?
	Oh, he was black.
	What's the really bad neighborhood in Toronto?
	Jane Finch?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, so I think it was a bit of a status thing for him.
	Okay, but let's go back before that.
	Because you saw men attracted to your mother, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And they weren't your dad, right?
	So what, in your mind, this is formative for you, right?
	This is how you view women, and this is how you view the worth of women.
	Because this was your mom.
	What do men value about women according to what you saw with your mother and her boyfriends?
	Well, she was a bit of a Stepford wife, I guess you could say.
	Like, she always had that thing, like we sort of talked about earlier, where She put on a good face, like socially, you know, like she was in a corporate environment and, uh, you know, business suits, shoulder pads.
	Um, I mean, she didn't, she didn't just look good, uh, like physically, but like she put on... She just looked classy, right?
	Yeah.
	There we go.
	Okay.
	But that's not the, that's not the answer that I'm looking for.
	And I'm not, please understand, I'm not looking for the content of the answer, but just in the vicinity.
	You knew your mom very well, right?
	Because you live with her and you see her warts and all, right?
	Like, they say, oh, mothers know their children very well.
	Guess what?
	Especially if you've grown up with a single mom, you know your mother really, really well, right?
	Because you see the private face.
	You don't see the polished, go-into-the-bank exterior.
	You see the real gut to the person when you live with them, right?
	For better and for worse.
	So you knew your mother in a way that these... I don't know.
	I kind of bought into her bullshit for a long, long time.
	I bought into her bullshit for a long, long time.
	No, no, no.
	I get all of that.
	I get all of that.
	She's presentable.
	But you saw her, right?
	So Rick, deep down, deep down, you knew whether she had moral values to bring to a man.
	Loyal, steadfast, honest, brave, whatever.
	Good.
	Yeah, and she wanted to come off that way.
	Okay, but you knew the truth.
	So what did men want about your mother?
	What did they desire?
	What were they attracted to?
	Now, I mean, there's always sexuality.
	I'm not trying to say it's got to be platonic and, you know, it's like a monk with a nun.
	But the sexuality should be like the icing on the cake.
	What is the cake?
	I think it was the notion that she was like one of these women that Might not have totally known how good-looking she was and... A lack of self-knowledge is not a virtue that people will be attracted to.
	It's sexual market value though, too.
	No, I get that.
	So that makes them want to have sex with her more.
	I guess I'll just be blunt and ask you.
	Please do.
	What did the man want from your mother other than sex?
	I'm at a loss.
	You'll have to ask them.
	Maybe I just can't put myself in the shoes of somebody who wants to fuck my mom, but like... No, no, no.
	I mean, other than sex, I said.
	Or I just can't put myself in the shoes of somebody who wants to attach emotionally.
	Because I really am trying not to attach emotionally.
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	What personal qualities did you admire or cherish about your mother that she had?
	Well, I thought that she was loyal.
	I thought that she was like a ride-or-die kind of woman.
	Okay, loyal, she divorced her dad.
	I don't know what ride-or-die means.
	Yeah, it's basically like a street term for, like, really loyal.
	For what?
	It's like a street term for being a really loyal woman.
	Yeah, but she forced your dad, so I'm not sure where you get the loyalty thing from.
	Well, I think I was deluded about my mother's nature for a long time.
	Okay, but sleep down.
	I'm talking to the Rick who was not deluded, who's in there, right?
	Because when we see our moms, And we see, hopefully, our fathers in the same household, we get a sense of the value that they bring to each other.
	Do they enjoy each other's company?
	Do they make each other laugh?
	Do they stand by each other in good times and in bad times?
	Like, all of that stuff, right?
	So we know as we get older that our parents have sexual relationships, that's why we're here, and there's nothing wrong with that, it's perfectly healthy, it's nice and good.
	But there's no way that sex can sustain a relationship.
	Okay, okay.
	Well, I think that, um, the fact that she would look past things.
	The fact that she would delude herself about who she was with.
	So she has low standards and she lies to herself?
	Yeah.
	Oh, totally.
	Come on, man!
	So, okay, did she have anything to offer these men in terms of personal qualities outside of sexual access?
	Yeah, like, she would flatter their ego.
	She'd flatter their ego.
	And she would expect the same in return.
	So she was manipulative?
	Oh yeah.
	All right.
	So why did the men put up with the manipulation?
	Well, eventually they didn't, right?
	Eventually they went away and left us.
	Right.
	And that fucking sucked.
	I'm sorry?
	And that fucking sucked.
	And that's why, like, why I now, like, do not date single mothers or... No, no, okay.
	So here's the programming that I'm trying to sort of uncover here.
	Okay.
	What are women good for?
	I don't know.
	All right.
	I don't... No, no, don't say anymore.
	Because all of this comes very early.
	Why was your dad there?
	Why were the boyfriends there?
	Why is there a second husband there?
	Like, this is a big, big question.
	When you're raised by a non-virtuous woman, right?
	And listen, if you're a woman and you're raised by a non-virtuous man, the question is what are men good for?
	And you know the old equation, right?
	If you come from a dysfunctional household, the old equation is that men are there for resources, like money and stuff, and women are there for sexual access.
	And that's the value.
	Like, the men work and the women put out, and this garbage, mammalian, chimpanzee, exchange bullshit is how things run.
	Because when you see your mother, you're obviously in a non...
	Sexual non sexually attracted relationship, so you get to see her without The dangling fishhook of sexual access, right?
	And you you said stopped seeing your mother about four years ago Which means you could not find value in her now of course as her son You don't have any sexual desire for her which means that you can't find any value in her Because you know I guess the guys floated around for sexual access to a large degree, right?
	So outside of sexual access, you could not find value in your mother.
	Now, tell me if I'm wrong about that, but that's what I'm getting.
	Well, I mean, I was stuck on her... Sorry, I'm sorry to just ask you that question.
	I just realized I phrased that badly.
	I wouldn't say outside of sexual access, like that was on the table.
	But I mean, because you're not interested in sexual access, and in fact, the idea is repulsive to you, I just wanted to make that sort of very clear to people that when you're looking at your mother, you are evaluating her as a human being, not as a sex object.
	I mean, I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I know that looking back, her approval meant a whole lot to me, and that was something that I've thought and that was something that I've thought about.
	This is why I've underachieved in a lot of areas, because it made me Ready to hop back to the rescue when things would go wrong with one of these guys.
	Oh, with your mom, you mean?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Like, uh, she would always get, like, a lot more interested in her relationship with me when, uh, her love life was on the rocks.
	Like, I remember, I remember vividly, like, a period I understand now was, was when Her marriage with my father would have been in the decline, and that was when, like, we would have these, like, long cuddle sessions in front of the fireplace late at night before she'd put me to bed, and that all went away as soon as I entered adolescence, you know?
	That's not too bad, actually.
	I mean, that kind of should go away when you enter adolescence.
	I know, but it's still, like, emotional.
	Emotional incest.
	Yeah.
	I can see that.
	Yeah.
	And, and, and when I started realizing that that dynamic was at play and in my relationship with her, I kind of freaked out and confronted her with it.
	And instead of like, that was when she sort of like pretty quickly, um, with withdrew from our relationship and found Like the first man that she could get with to move in with, build a house, start a business, and that's always been her pattern.
	Okay, so let me just ask you this then.
	Have you ever met a woman who provided value to you, significant value to you, outside of sexual access?
	Well, when I have had girlfriends, the value is that they raise my self-esteem.
	I feel better about myself when I have a girlfriend.
	How do they do that?
	Well, again, it's social value, social evidence.
	That's finding approval from others, not value in the women themselves.
	Exactly.
	Okay, so value in the woman herself outside of sexual access.
	What have you seen?
	Like what do I look for?
	No!
	- Have you met a woman in your life who's given you significant value outside of potential sexual access or sexual access? - Like a female kind of mentor figure?
	Someone you've met in your life.
	Who gives you value.
	Who you respect and admire.
	completely outside of sexual access.
	I've tried.
	I know the answer to this, by the way.
	You can just be frank.
	I know the answer to this.
	No one jumps to mind.
	Yeah.
	And trust me, that person would jump to mind if they were around, right?
	Yeah.
	And that's why it's so heartwarming to hear you talk about your relationship with your wife and your child.
	Yeah, no, and I appreciate that.
	So the prostitutes are there to defend your mother, in your mind's eye.
	That's what you got to do.
	I mean, yeah, I've realized this through listening to you.
	Okay, so tell me what I mean by that.
	Well, it's like on other calls where you've talked to me, and I've had similar experiences where if I were to bring someone home that and I've had similar experiences where if I were to bring someone home that was more healthy than she was, my mother would find And-
	Yeah, or to be more precise, You have probably deep down in your unconscious decided that women are only good for one thing.
	And based upon your empirical evidence of your immediate life, you know, that may be somewhat tough to argue against.
	So if you believe that women are only good for one thing based upon who you grew up with and who you've experienced and who you've seen, then you're not challenging that by going to prostitutes, right?
	Because you're just using them for one thing.
	And if that's in your mind, all women are good for, then that's there to protect... You're there to protect your view of your mother, not to protect your mother directly.
	You're there to protect your view of your mother.
	If you then were to find... By myself, really.
	I'm sorry?
	Well, I'm there to protect... I'm also there to protect myself.
	Like, I feel for me... God, no.
	What are you, crazy?
	Are you fucking nuts?
	You go to prostitutes to protect yourself?
	Don't even try and slip that little hockey puck past me, my friend.
	Don't even fucking try.
	Oh, I know, it's, it's totally... No, no, no, it's dangerous, you understand.
	You can get killed, you can get robbed, you could meet Cardi B a couple of years ago.
	It could be any number of things going down, right?
	You could get blackmailed, you could get STDs, you could get God knows what, someone could get pregnant, right?
	Are you kidding me?
	No, no, no, no.
	Off the table.
	Do not think that this is to protect yourself.
	Way off the table, putting you in massive danger.
	That's not the adult Patrick saying that, though.
	For me, it's not that women are only good for one thing, it's that women are only safe for one thing, emotionally speaking, because there's nothing worse than rejection.
	There's nothing worse than what?
	Rejection.
	It's like, fuck all that other shit.
	Life is dangerous to start with.
	But, like, being rejected and alone, um, after you've actually attached to someone long-term... Like, I was listening to, like, there's a guy who has a great show, um, for divorce days on YouTube, and he was saying that, like, he, that divorce is a... It's a, it's a wound that you, you, you just learn to live with.
	You know?
	You just have a limp forever.
	And, um, I mean, I saw my father go through that, you know, and, um, like he told me one time that like, he went to such a dark place.
	Um, he talked to my, uh, my uncle, his, his brother-in-law, who's also a hunter at one point and said, Hey, I need to give you my guns.
	Because that lead is looking pretty tasty right about now, right?
	Yeah.
	And it's funny, he actually, way back in the day, he told me a story that like, he was really upset because he'd called some radio talk show when he was on the road listening to AM radio one day and he was angry at the host because the host had like replayed him sharing the His experience with that, and then after they'd hung up and the host was like, oh, that's really scary.
	And my dad took it like, oh, I'm a scary person.
	Whereas he felt really proud that he'd taken that step to remove the option of doing something heinous.
	Yeah, no, I mean, the scary thing is not that your dad's scary, but that what divorce can do, especially a divorce from a woman like your mom.
	All right, so let's get... You have sexual needs, you have sexual desires, you're a healthy man.
	And you can get those sexual desires met within a stable, pair-bonded, loving, virtuous relationship.
	But that would cause you great anxiety, right?
	Oh yeah.
	And the reason it would cause you great anxiety is because it goes against everything that you saw or a lot of what you saw growing up, right?
	Which is that men are only attracted to women in this world because of sexual access.
	The women have nothing else to bring to the table in this view other than sexual access, right?
	I mean, I knew my mother.
	I knew everything there was to know about my mother.
	And I saw these guys sniffing around her because she was pretty and she was thin.
	I saw these guys sniffing around her.
	And as the often single son of a single mom, you see all these guys sniffing around, you know she's not a quality person.
	You know that she's abusive.
	You know she's manipulative.
	You know she's false.
	And all these guys sniffing around.
	Why?
	Why are they sniffing around?
	For sexual access.
	That's all.
	That's all.
	And that is a very tough template to start off life with.
	Because what you want to see is you want to see a healthy, happy mother and father.
	You want to see them being affectionate, you know, hugging and kissing and all of that.
	Right?
	And then as you get older, you understand, okay, well, you know, sex is part of their relationship, but it's only good because they enjoy each other's company and they love each other and they respect each other and admire each other and all that, right?
	Because of the virtues they manifest.
	And that way you can grow up and you can look for good Women, good men to pair bond with, right?
	But if you grow up knowing the truth about your mother's character, the truth about your mother's nature, and you see all of these hound dogs sniffing around her scent, you know what they're there for.
	And you kind of want to say to her, look, she's not a good person.
	You want to say to them, you want to say to these men, right?
	What are you doing?
	She's not a good person.
	Oh, she's hot.
	She's high status.
	She's whatever, right?
	And you realize that women in this context, with these men, they don't need to be good.
	They just need to spread them, or the reasonable expectation thereof, right?
	I'm not sure if that describes it, Stefan.
	Like, honestly, I think that way now.
	But for me, like a lot of the kind of pain and confusion that I've gone through was that I had this kind of like, you know, like Disneyfication or whatever.
	Like that there is this dressing up of The motives, you know, like, like, noble lies.
	No, I don't have time for this.
	I don't.
	Life is short.
	Okay.
	So Rick, did your father beat you?
	Yeah.
	Did your father beat you in front of your mother?
	Yeah.
	Did your mother do anything to stop him?
	She divorced him.
	Did she divorce him because he was beating you?
	She would say so, yes.
	What do you think?
	Did she try and stop him in the moment?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And what did she do in the moment?
	She pulled him off me and kind of pulled me back in my room and resumed their argument on this.
	Okay, that's good.
	I wasn't aware of that and I appreciate you sharing that and that changes some things for sure.
	So she did intervene when your father would beat you and stop and then she would say that she divorced him because he was beating you.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So she did more good in a way than your father did, right?
	I think my resentment's toward her since then.
	I understand more from the fact that she put attention toward...
	That she did what? - Yeah.
	That she put... My resentment toward her goes more on the fact that her priorities were on the man that she was dating more than figuring out how to be a parent for me or finding a decent man.
	Dad actually wanted to be a stepfather.
	And how old were you when she got remarried?
	16.
	And did that relationship last?
	No.
	No, they divorced when I was about 25.
	Do you know why they divorced?
	He had acquired some debt.
	He was a factory worker and was selling marijuana and mushrooms.
	And this is the version of the story that she's given me.
	He just vanished from our lives once my mother announced the divorce to us.
	He never said goodbye.
	He never did any of this.
	So she married a drug-dealing factory worker?
	Right.
	Right.
	And, uh, I had objected to the marriage originally, um, because I barely knew him when she moved him into her bedroom.
	He actually lived with his first wife, uh, around the corner from us.
	Uh, and they were living common law, um, for the sake of his, his daughter.
	Um, and so some, For some reason, she thought it was a great idea to get this guy involved in our life.
	And there was always this weird tension when, say, like, his ex-wife would, like, walk around the block and we'd be doing, like, yard work in front of the house, like, mowing the lawn and stuff.
	And she would have a guy that she was dating.
	And then, like, this is a shit show.
	Like, it's just weird.
	Bullcrap.
	You know what I mean?
	I like how you go from shitshow to bullcrap.
	There's the non-family-friendly part of the sentence and then the family-friendly part of the sentence.
	I'm sorry, I just thought that was a little funny.
	Alright.
	And so she moved this guy in before they got married, right?
	Yeah.
	And did she talk to you about this or ask you or did you have any say or input?
	No, she just announced it.
	Yeah, she just announced it.
	That's always been her style.
	She just woke us up.
	When I came to my father, we just woke up one morning.
	She told my sister and I to come into the living room.
	Real solemn atmosphere.
	I've got to tell you kids, your father's not going to be living with us anymore.
	I didn't even know what divorce was before that morning.
	Right?
	No, no.
	on we're moving houses we're moving from the countryside into um city later on okay now hang on but but when the but when the guy moved in the factory worker moved in you were not consulted and they were not married as yet right no no no he was just living in her bedroom i got like i'd met him
	i knew that she was that he was a guy that she would see on the weekends that we were with my dad um um, But yeah, she sort of announced like, okay, later next week, he's with us now, kind of thing.
	And like, I was familiar with him.
	But yeah, it was... Okay, so it's all about her needs and her preferences, right?
	Exactly.
	So you don't have a say.
	It's all about her needs and what she wants, right?
	Totally.
	Now you understand that's what you do with prostitutes, right?
	They don't have a say.
	It's your needs and your preferences.
	Because you got the money.
	I like to think there's a little more negotiation than that.
	No, not really.
	Thank you.
	Not really.
	It's like you go up to the Burger King window and you ask for a cheeseburger, what are they going to do?
	too.
	They can give you the cheeseburger if you've got the money, right?
	Okay.
	I won't dodge that.
	I'll take that one.
	No, no.
	If it doesn't fit, man, feel free to push back as hard as you want.
	I'm just theorizing here.
	I know what I do is fucking horrible.
	No, no, no.
	Forget the judgment.
	See, you want the horrible.
	That's why you do it.
	So this self-flagellation is just feeding the beast.
	You understand, right?
	Self-flagellation is just feeding the beast if that's what the beast is for.
	I'm so terrible.
	I'm so horrible.
	Yeah, okay.
	Let's just put it this way.
	It's not going to get you what you want in life, right?
	What am I supposed to say?
	Like, it's not a healthy thing.
	But if you're in it to self-flagellate, if you're in it to punish yourself, then getting mad at yourself only makes it worse.
	You understand?
	Like, I...
	The point is to understand what drives it, not to just judge...
	I just don't know how to motivate myself not to do it.
	No, no, but you can't.
	That's the whole point of addiction, as far as I understand it.
	Please understand, I'm no expert.
	I'm just telling you what I think.
	But my understanding of addiction is that you can't just white-knuckle yourself not to do it.
	If it's feeding some very primal need within you, then you can grit your teeth, you can white-knuckle, you might be able to quit for a week, a month, maybe a year.
	But if you can't figure out what's driving it for you, then it's unsustainable, right?
	To stop.
	Like, in other words, you can will to not eat for a week if you want, if you're paid a million dollars to not eat for a week or whatever it is, right?
	I mean, a day or whatever it is, right?
	You can do that.
	But you have an underlying physiological need to eat.
	I'm sorry?
	I feel like we've already established why I do it.
	It's because real vulnerability and intimacy with women is goddamn terrifying for me.
	But you are vulnerable to these women.
	Thank you.
	They can beat you up, they can blackmail you, there is vulnerability in this.
	And you're vulnerable to shame.
	And maybe even self-hatred coming out of this, right?
	Yeah, but it's not long-term.
	- It's a pretty long-term feeling of self-contempt, isn't it? - That's true.
	That's true too. - The product of the addiction is the purpose of the addiction, and the product of this addiction is not sex.
	The product of this addiction is shame, isn't it?
	- Correct. - Okay, let me ask you this.
	The men who dated your mother, do you think that they were honest with themselves about why they were dating her?
	In other words, did they say, you know, well, she's not a very nice person, she's pretty selfish, kind of manipulative, but she's hot, right?
	Or she's high status, or whatever it is, right?
	Or do you think that they imagined all of these virtues in her that allowed them to overlook her personality flaws?
	Oh, I think she could be charming.
	I think she was a hard worker, you know.
	I think that as they got known of her, that stuff came out.
	And eventually they started to feel a little bit... Sorry, they didn't track her negative emotional characteristics, right?
	They just... They accumulated after the charm wore off and then they just eventually had to bail, right?
	Or did bail.
	Yeah, I don't think these were really deep thinkers, here.
	Well, the drug dealing factory worker, I'm sure, was not in that category.
	I don't know, man.
	He was... Anyway, um... And when did you last go?
	When did I last what?
	When did you last visit a prostitute?
	About four months ago.
	And is the urge coming back?
	Yeah, I mean, it's...
	I mean, it's somewhat helped by the fact that I'm a little older now.
	But, like, it's weird because, like, you know, I want to at least, you know, try to take care of my health and, like, work out and things.
	That means increasing my testosterone.
	You abstain from alcohol, you abstain from weed, you get better sleep, your body starts repairing itself and just your physiology.
	And where would you like to be?
	What's your ideal life five years from now?
	I would be a man of virtue.
	Something more concrete.
	I don't know.
	This is a bit like... Do you want to be a dad?
	Do you want to be a husband?
	What do you want?
	Sounds nice.
	Yeah.
	You sound like you never thought of it.
	Yeah, I guess I could go to China.
	What do you mean?
	Is that good for you?
	Yeah, those are things that I aspire to.
	Now, what happens?
	But what happens to you emotionally?
	Let's say that you meet a woman tomorrow.
	Like, we have this conversation, you maybe see some things, and you see some woman tomorrow, and she's a great woman.
	You know, she's funny, she's articulate, she's intelligent, she's wise, she's hardworking, she's whatever, right?
	Whatever, you know, the usual virtues that we can talk about.
	Maybe she listens to this show, right?
	I mean, a fifth of the listeners are women, right?
	So, you meet this woman tomorrow, What is your emotional reaction to being attracted to her?
	And don't overthink this.
	Just tell me what happens to your heart if you're attracted to her.
	Fear.
	Fear of what?
	Being rejected?
	Rejection. Being rejected.
	Rejection.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Like your mother rejected you, right? .
	She chose a parade of penises over her progeny, so to speak, right?
	Over her son.
	Oh.
	Oh, fuck yeah.
	I mean, she told me about her fourth marriage via text message.
	Oh, she's up to four now?
	Yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	She's married to... No, no.
	I don't even want to know.
	I don't even want to know.
	I assume it's just some other garbage human.
	So here's the thing.
	The big perspective is this.
	That you are living this rejection every day.
	Yes.
	So you are not, you've not solved the problem of being rejected.
	You understand, right?
	Because you live this rejection every day.
	You reject your life, you reject your happiness, you reject your virtue, you reject your self-control, you humiliate yourself, you act in ways that cause you to feel some level of self-contempt and so on, right?
	So you already are experiencing this rejection on a perpetual basis.
	You have nothing to lose from aiming higher.
	What are you going to do?
	Feel rejected?
	You understand?
	You're living that anyway.
	You're like somebody living in the basement saying, by God, I'd never even visit someone in a basement apartment.
	And...
	Like, what, are you crazy?
	You're already living in a basement.
	I'm afraid of rejection!
	Every time you go to a prostitute, you're saying, I'm worth $300 worth of rejection. You're paying for rejection. You're paying for sex. You're paying for rejection.
	Thank you.
	What did you sell me earlier?
	You said they were in a man bank, thank you mom, get out of my life!
	That's what they want, right?
	They want you gone.
	Right?
	So you're paying them to want you gone, it's partly, right?
	So you're already living perpetual rejection.
	So the idea that you'd be afraid of rejection, It'd be like me putting out a video saying, God, I hope I don't become bald.
	You understand?
	Well, here's the weird part, though, too, is because so are they.
	I'm sorry?
	So are they.
	Well, I mean, it's a matter of like, like, uh, meeting Mike.
	Oh, for God's sakes, man, please don't tell me we're going to talk about the prostitutes now.
	We're talking about you!
	Don't start to drag me off to the female perspective, because that's just your mom talking, alright?
	Well, you gotta think about the women's perspective.
	No focusing on Rick!
	We gotta focus on the women!
	Alright?
	I get all that.
	But I'm not talking to them, I'm talking to you.
	The idea that you would be afraid of something that you are inflicting on yourself so repetitively, you understand, from the outside, it doesn't look particularly grounded.
	It's because it's not.
	It's not, right?
	It's not.
	Okay.
	So you've got to recognize that you've been living your worst fear of rejection probably since you were eight or nine.
	And you're also mirroring your father's fear of rejection where the divorce had him thinking about sucking a shotgun, right?
	Or worse.
	Or worse?
	Worse?
	What's worse?
	Oh, don't even answer that.
	I don't even want to know.
	But okay.
	There's only so much I can take on a full stomach.
	Alright.
	So, this rejection shit, the way to solve it is actually quite simple.
	A fear of rejection without evaluation just makes you paranoid.
	In other words, if anyone rejects me, that's terrible, gives the most power to the worst people in your life, in your environment, right?
	So, I dated a lot when I was younger, but there were some women who wouldn't go out with me, right?
	Who would say no or would give me one of these, well, maybe we can all go out as a group, you know, kind of stuff, right?
	I mean, yeah, so, you know, you could say, you have to really basically say, well, is she such a great person and I'm such a bad person that that's why she's not going out with me?
	And... I mean, I've told this story, but it was years ago.
	So, I was interested in a yoga teacher.
	I was taking yoga.
	And I'd sit and chat with her after class, and we'd exchange stories and all that, but I could never quite get her to do anything sort of outside of class.
	You know, you sort of put out these little feelers, and oh, you know, I like, this Starbucks is really cool, and if she says, oh yeah, maybe we could drop past there, or something like that, right?
	So I was never able to, I'm going to say close the deal because that sounds very crass, but I was never able to get her to, to, um, I didn't actually end up asking her because I kind of got that it was going to be a negative, right?
	Anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
	At some point after I'd ended up going out with someone else, there was some guy in the gym who was saying how he was banging the yoga teacher, right?
	And it was a good looking guy, you know, lean and tall and you know, all that kind of stuff, right?
	It still burns your ass.
	- Oh, no, it's stuff like that that would always burn my ass. - No, but here's the thing, right?
	So it was a great relief for me.
	It's because I'm a good guy, I'm a great dad, I'm a good husband.
	I'm a, you know, like, I'm a good partner.
	I'm a great guy.
	And this yoga teacher, she didn't want to go out with me because she wanted to go out with the guy who would brag about banging her in the locker room.
	Two fucking strangers.
	Like, yuck!
	What a huge relief that was for me.
	Do you get what I mean?
	Dodged a bullet.
	Yeah!
	Or like, okay, so this is where she is.
	She doesn't want to go out with a quality guy.
	She wants to go out with some bragging, strutting, balls-brained idiot who brags to strangers about nailing her.
	I mean, come on!
	What a relief!
	So judge the people who are rejecting you.
	Your mother rejected you because she was a bitch.
	Selfish.
	Entitled.
	Manipulative.
	Narcissistic.
	You name it.
	As far as I can see from what you've told me.
	Right.
	Oh no!
	I was rejected by a shitty person!
	What does that say about you?
	You think this makes you worse than shitty and that's what you're acting out?
	No!
	You were rejected by a shitty person!
	Why?
	Because you're a good person.
	But you're acting out this thing like you're lower than the shitty person who rejected you.
	Thank you.
	But shitty people generally exploit those who are worse than them.
	They don't reject them.
	And if I look back, and you may have the same pattern, I look back at the people who rejected me every now and then, and I haven't done this for years, but every now and then, you check out the people who rejected you, right?
	Oh, that business didn't hire me back in the day.
	I wonder how they're doing.
	Out of business!
	Oh, this woman, she said no to me many, many years ago.
	I wonder how she's doing.
	You can't see her for the cat fur.
	Mm-hmm.
	I get it.
	Do you?
	That's right.
	because you were too fucking good for them.
	For her.
	For your mom.
	I get it.
	Do you?
	Do you?
	What if you weren't dropped, but you bounced?
	Like, what if you ended up not lower, but higher?
	But if you believe you're lower, but you're higher, then you have to additionally humiliate yourself to get back down there, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	I don't know that this is connecting with you at all emotionally, which means it could be completely wrong, or we've just been talking too long, or what. - Yeah.
	No, it's totally valid.
	For me, it's that... Like, how do I fill that void?
	Here's the thing.
	Listen.
	Rick, okay.
	You listened to this show, and I said something true, Years ago, about my mother and the phone, right?
	Yes.
	Now, if you were a bad person, you would have got really angry at me, you'd have made up some story about how terrible I am, and there's no shortage of people out there in the world more than happy to tell that story.
	You'd have turned me off and discussed, and you'd have gone to some blog and you'd have said, oh, he hates women, whatever, right?
	You'd have come up with some shitty reason to reject the honest truth that I was saying, right?
	Okay.
	If you were a bad person, that's what you would do.
	Because I was simply telling the truth of my experience, right?
	I wasn't saying all women, I was telling the truth of my experience, right?
	So I told the truth years ago, and how did you react?
	I identified with it.
	I love this guy, you said.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Seriously.
	Was that not, I mean, not like we're getting married tomorrow, but didn't you respond to that like, oh, what a great thing to say, what an honest guy, I gotta get more, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Well, it made me feel like you'd tread a path that I'm trying to walk ahead of me.
	Right, okay.
	So that means that the honesty and the frankness and the whatever that I was communicating did not arouse rage, hatred, contempt, blah, blah, blah, right?
	It aroused admiration, it aroused enthusiasm, it aroused curiosity, right?
	What I'm saying is, Rick, I aroused you.
	No, but you responded positively to what it is that I'm doing and you listened to a whole bunch more shows, right?
	And you responded positively.
	That is a tell about the nature of your soul.
	Go on.
	Well, like, yeah, going back to that, I felt like I'd found a needle in a haystack.
	And, I mean, as time goes by, I've found a few of those, you know?
	Right.
	So you're responding positively to virtue in action.
	Which is not what you're... Can you imagine if your mother listened to me?
	I don't know.
	She'd be a reporter.
	No, can you imagine, though?
	If your mother listened to me... Right?
	She would not say, wow, that's really honest, that's really expressive, that's really vulnerable, that's really... Right?
	I've got to go listen to more of this guy, right?
	So your mother would reject me and you respond positively to me.
	Right?
	And I'm a good person.
	Your mother is a bad person.
	So you want to stay below your mother because she wants to inflict in you the power of self-contempt So that she can say, in her mind, she rejected you because you're bad, right?
	Like you haven't communicated with her in four years.
	You know as well as I do, when people say, oh, how's your son?
	Well, he got swept up in an internet cult.
	I don't know what, right?
	But it would not be any responsibility.
	It would not be any curiosity.
	And I bet, dollars to donuts, that it probably doesn't even matter to her too much that you don't See her.
	I mean, other than maybe there's some negative social stigma or whatever, but it's not like she misses you, because when she was with you and you were there as a kid, she ignored you anyway.
	Right?
	So you're stuck down in a dungeon, I would say, and your life is stuck, and you've got these habits which are destructive to your happiness.
	Because you internalize that rejection.
	Like, if I'm rejected by a bad person, I must be a really bad person, because I reject bad people.
	Right?
	This is confusing the world for yourself.
	I reject bad people, so if a bad person rejected me, I must be even worse than them.
	But it's not how it works.
	Well, I feel like I should talk about, like, the fact that, like, I moved home several times, and... You know, it's that whole thing that, like, We're coming to the end of the conversation so I don't want more biographical details because either I'm landing on target or I'm missing completely.
	But if you were reorient yourself to say that you were ignored and rejected by your mother because you were a good person and she was a bad person, that to me would be the most liberating perspective that you could get in your life.
	Because to be rejected by a bad person because you're an even worse person is really humiliating, right?
	It really makes you feel terrible about yourself.
	If a bad person rejects you, that means who could ever love you?
	You've got to pay for love, for contact, for touch, for sex.
	But what if you were rejected, not for your badness, but for your goodness?
	What then?
	Would that not mean that that rejection was proof that you were lovable?
	that you did have value, that you were a good person.
	What if you've got it 180 wrong?
	Thank you.
	You were rejected for your virtues, not your vices.
	then you wouldn't need all these current vices to fulfill that belief about yourself.
	You wouldn't have to behave, quote, worse than your mom to fulfill this idea that you were rejected for being worse than a bad person.
	I was rejected as a writer by countless people.
	But my books are downloaded and read over 100,000 times a month.
	Was I rejected for being a bad writer?
	No.
	I was rejected for being a good writer.
	Can I ask you something?
	Yeah.
	When you parted with your mom... When I did what with my mom?
	When you parted with your mom, when you defood or...
	whatever cut her out um did did you ever like what did you have like a freak out moment like you talk about the bomb and the brain and everything like that like what like was there ever anything that like just set you off because that was before i left or after
	well um i guess either um 'cause that was sort of what happened for me is She sent me that text.
	Okay, wait.
	What the fuck are we talking about?
	I'm trying to pound some big idea into your head and you keep dodging it.
	What are we talking about a text your mom sent you?
	I'm trying to give you a big reorient in your life.
	Why are you trying to distract me with all this stuff?
	Does what I'm saying make any sense or not?
	One of the things that prevents me from that is the fact that I do feel guilty for the fact that I fucking blew up.
	When I cut her out, I just went off the deep end when she sent me that text about... Okay, so what did she send you and what did you do?
	My life had fallen apart.
	I'd broken up with a girl I'd fallen in love with.
	I lost my job.
	I lost a place to live.
	I saw my grandfather, her father, for the last time.
	I had a fairly brief introduction to the man that she's now married to.
	I drove back across Canada here, and my first day when I was starting a new job, she sent a text message simultaneously to my sister and I announcing this engagement that she'd accepted.
	And from there, I just had a meltdown toward her, where I was... I just raged.
	I just raged at her.
	I told her that... Like you called her?
	Is that right?
	No, I... Well, I mean, I told myself that I wouldn't rage.
	Was it face-to-face or over the phone or what?
	It was just over the phone.
	I was back out west.
	Just give me the gist of what you said.
	Um, that, that this man is not welcome in my family.
	I, he's a stranger.
	Did you know him at all?
	No, no.
	She'd been dating him for about a year.
	Um, I met him briefly.
	He wasn't very, uh, interested in me at the few dinners that we had in the week that I'd come home.
	Okay.
	So you said that you weren't, he wasn't welcome.
	Okay.
	He wasn't welcome.
	I swore up and down the wall.
	I no-showed the wedding.
	Wait, you had a rage at her and then you were going to go to the wedding?
	No, no.
	She sent me an invitation through the mail.
	So you got angry at your mother.
	What's wrong with that?
	I said as many hurtful things as I possibly could.
	Not only that, I called the rest of the family to make it very clear that whatever she tells you is not true.
	You were done with her?
	Yeah.
	Because she had once more just gone ahead and done what she wanted without talking with you?
	And nobody in the rest of the family really gave a damn either.
	They really didn't want to hear.
	They really weren't interested in hearing the fact that this guy was a stranger to me and I wasn't going to be coming to the wedding.
	And this was four years ago?
	Yeah.
	Why are you not allowed to do that?
	Why is that wrong?
	What's bad about that?
	Because you're vicious.
	Like, I got really vicious.
	Right.
	And I tried to involve other people and I just...
	I wanted to hurt her, to be really frank.
	Right.
	I wanted to hurt her public face.
	Right.
	And what were you hoping to gain out of hurting her?
	What was the goal?
	I guess, like, wake her up.
	So you were trying to save her?
	Wake her up?
	Okay, so you understand that being around her made you a worse person.
	Right?
	and the courage that I finally had to just rage and stay angry and stay bitter at all of the things that before, when I'd been in recovery, I had decided to forgive.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so you understand that being around her made you a worse person.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	So why would you want to be around someone who's a bad person who makes you a worse person?
	Because that's kind of what bad people do.
	Right?
	They either, you comply and conform to their craziness or you fight against it, in which case you end up saying things you regret.
	It's a no win.
	It's a no win, right?
	I guess I just wish I could have done it in more of a classy way where I'd take the high ground and...
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So you forgave your father for beating you, but you can't forgive yourself for yelling at your mom.
	When you had 35 years of provocation with your mom and you finally blew it, or you blew up, right?
	you You didn't hit her.
	You didn't do anything illegal.
	You didn't do anything criminal.
	You didn't get her fired.
	You didn't.
	Right.
	Inflicted with an ailment.
	You yelled at her.
	And you said mean things.
	after 35 years of provocation.
	What's that?
	It sounds stupid, right?
	I'm sorry?
	Oh, this is back to you like you're a bad person, right?
	I guess.
	Yeah, yeah, okay.
	Okay, so we...
	This is one of your stories about why you're a bad person is that four years ago you yelled and said mean things to your mom, right?
	That's your deal?
	Yeah.
	Jesus.
	You understand, right?
	So this is, you got to feed this thing.
	I'm a bad person because I go to prostitutes.
	I'm a bad person because my life is stuck.
	I'm a bad person because I yelled at my mom.
	I'm a bad, bad, bad, right?
	If you were a bad person, I'm telling you, you'd hate this show.
	I'm telling you, straight up.
	You're not a bad person.
	You're just drawn that way.
	It's an old line from Roger Rabbit.
	I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way.
	No, it's just what serves your mother's need.
	Nobody likes to think that they're rejecting someone.
	Listen, I'm sure, I'm sure that some people from my past have looked me up and, you know, they found some bad stuff and they found some good stuff.
	But I guarantee you that women who ended up marrying some guy who turned out to be a bad dad are listening to me with my daughter.
	And they're like, well, that's the good one who got away.
	Like maybe.
	Maybe you were all rejected.
	Because you were a good person.
	Thank you.
	And maybe this script you've got running in your head that you're a bad person is the purpose of the prostitution visits.
	To reaffirm this and to say, well, I mean, I was rejected because I was a bad person, which gets your mom off the hook.
	I don't give a shit that you yelled at your mom, honestly.
	I don't care.
	I don't care at all.
	You had good reason.
	That doesn't define you in my eyes.
	I think that you were raised by a very selfish woman.
	I think you were beaten by your father.
	I think you had it really fucking rough growing up.
	Rick, I know that you did.
	And what if the purpose of all of that Is not to just have you forgive yourself, but to free yourself of the idea that bad people rejected you because you were worse than them.
	No, they rejected you because you're better than them.
	And the deep down Little Rick instincts that had you respond positively to this show, as a whole, it's the part of you that knows that.
	You've got to judge the people who are rejecting you.
	Are they successful?
	Are they good?
	Are they moral?
	Are they decent?
	Who is rejecting you?
	And why?
	It's important to know that because if we're rejected by good people, we should really figure that out and be better and all that, right?
	But if we're rejected by bad people, it's probably because we're good.
	And if you take that rejection to mean That you're bad, corrupted, a festering abscess of a soul, this husk of a human being.
	Then you're going to act that script out, right?
	But if you know, you know, deeper down than your mother's rejection and your father's beatings and all of that, that you're a good person.
	That's what I mean by the purpose is humiliation.
	If you fundamentally swallow the script that bad people gave you and they rejected you, which is that they rejected you because you're boring, or they rejected you because you're crazy, or they rejected you because you're bad, or they rejected you because you're selfish, or whatever it is, right?
	The people who reject you who are bad will always say it's your fault and you're bad, right?
	Of course they'll always say that, because they can't take any responsibility for themselves.
	But you can't accept that.
	You've got to test that to the empirical evidence.
	Now, if you believe that strongly, then you'll produce the empirical evidence to support their thesis that you're worse than them.
	Sure.
	And the problem is, with being around people who are like that, is they're heavily invested in your failures.
	You say, oh, I wonder why my life has been such a failure.
	Well, because if you were defined by your mother, say, as being worse than she is, then she's going to desperately need you to fail.
	And if you succeed, that's going to really mess her up.
	You know, you really want to be cruel to your mom?
	Just live a better life.
	Live a great life.
	But certainly don't let your essence be defined by dysfunctional people.
	Ever.
	By destructive people, by people who may just be deeply, deeply flawed and immoral.
	That's uh, that's an important thing to hear because I uh, I honestly do like Part of the reason I feel so vulnerable in the world is is um I know that everything that you're saying is true and that Like There are people there there are people out there that are so kind that They'll see something in me that
	They know I have this kind of gap in my life where a good mother should have been, and they'll be able to use that against me.
	Right.
	But you've got to steer clear of people like that.
	But you understand that you're the first person in that lineup against you, right?
	Yeah.
	Because you had a bad mother, and I think you think that this means you're a bad person.
	And I strongly, strongly disagree.
	There's also just always this hunger, though.
	Like, how can I find that woman who will be able to, you know, like, Close that gap.
	But yeah, to find that woman, you just need to reject the woman who rejected you.
	You need to reject the value of your mother's rejection.
	Come on, four marriages, marrying a factory worker who deals drugs, who vanishes, bringing guys into the kid's environment without any negotiation, ignoring you.
	Using you for her own, what did you call it, emotional incest?
	And then dumping you when some other guy comes along?
	It's pretty monstrous, right?
	Don't take it personally. - Exactly.
	It's a chilling thing to think how little we show up in the hearts and minds of truly selfish people.
	Because we think it's about us.
	We barely even register for them.
	Have you ever tried to, like, Attached to women out of your pain that your mother caused?
	I don't know what that means, but my whole point is that the pain that your mother caused is in your interpretation of the hierarchy with your mother.
	The pain that your mother caused is decades ago now.
	The only way that it lives on is how you have it define you.
	If you say, philosophy was a lifeline that saved me from believing I was worse than the worst person I knew growing up, then you can reverse this, right?
	If I had believed that I was rejected as a writer because I was a bad writer, I just would have stopped writing.
	But I knew I wasn't a bad writer and it took a long struggle to realize that.
	And of course, we've seen people who don't take any responsibility and we've seen people who say, well, I am a great writer even though everyone says I'm terrible and they just simply won't accept reality.
	So, you know, you have to be fair and reasonable and all of that with these things.
	What tipped me off was the peculiar hostility that people had to my writing.
	That's what's kind of tipped me off about it the most, was that people didn't just say, ah, you know, it's not really for me.
	I mean, it's good writing, but it's not my particular style.
	Like, they hated what I wrote in the publishing industry.
	Like, they hated it.
	And that was kind of a clue, right?
	So that's, I'm going to end here because it's been a long chat, but I just really wanted to get this across to you.
	Thank you.
	That if you look at the hierarchy of rejection, And you've got to read your Ayn Rand.
	You've got to read your Fountainhead.
	You've got to read the Atmostruct.
	You've got to read the Virtue of Selfishness.
	She's an incredible analysis of this.
	You've got to read the Psychology of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Brandon.
	Hatred of the good for being the good.
	Hatred of the good for being the good.
	I bet you were a good kid.
	You're a smart kid.
	I bet you were a sensitive kid.
	I bet you were a decent, good kid.
	Oh, I was Mr. Little Good Manners.
	Yeah, so you were a good kid.
	And you were rejected for that.
	The rejection is a badge of honor.
	I was rejected by the yoga teacher because I wasn't a stupid, strutting, six-pack, dick-napped idiot who bragged about sexual conquest to strangers in a locker room.
	I wasn't shitty enough for her.
	You understand?
	I wasn't crappy enough for her.
	I wasn't garbage enough for her.
	So, I'm not less because she rejected me, she rejected me because I'm better.
	And your mother rejected you because you were better.
	And her humiliation that she couldn't even rise to the standards of her own child translates into your humiliation which you're pursuing with the prostitution.
	It's all run by the evaluation of the hierarchy of rejection.
	And you got it backwards, or upside down, I guess.
	I guess.
	Does that make sense? - Yeah, I'm trying, like, like a part of me understands Well, you've got to listen to this again.
	This is a big thing, right?
	I do, I do.
	I totally do.
	And again, I could be wrong.
	I always say this.
	This is just my thoughts.
	I could be wrong.
	But listen back to this and I think you'll see the idea emerging like the white whale out of the ocean as the conversation went.
	I agree.
	Are you still in therapy?
	I mean, I'm trying.
	I'm in a 12-step group and, you know, it's funny, like, sometimes you get what you pay for.
	There's a lot of broken people in 12-step groups that, like, God bless them, they're trying, but, like, they don't have the... Well, yeah, I'm just saying, if this stuff is kicking up a bunch of stuff for you, then, you know, a good therapist... Podcast 1939, at least my thoughts about how to find a good therapist.
	A good therapist could be really helpful, but I hope that this has been helpful.
	Will you let me know how it goes with you going forward?
	Absolutely.
	Was it a helpful conversation for you?
	Yeah, yeah.
	These are things that I have waited a long time to be able to really get into the meat of.
	It's like a lot of people kind of want to talk more about God and things like that when you're going to these groups, and that's all valid.
	Um, but...
	No, you're just talking about an evil goddess instead.
	Well, listen, I really, really appreciate the call.
	I really appreciate your frankness and openness.
	And, you know, just let me know how it goes going forward, man.
	I really care about how this plays out for you.
	And just keep me posted, all right?
	Certainly.
	All right.
	Thanks, Amit.
	Thank you.
	Well, thank you so much for enjoying this latest free domain show on philosophy.
	And I'm going to be frank and ask you for your help, your support, your encouragement, and your resources.
	Please like, subscribe, and share, and all of that good stuff to get philosophy out into the world.
	And also, equally importantly, go to freedomain.com forward slash donate.

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