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Sept. 30, 2018 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:15:57

4211 Gang Stalking? - Call In Show - September 26th, 2018

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	Hey everybody, it's Stefan Mullen.
	You hope you're doing well. Please don't forget to help out the show at freedomainradio.com slash donate.
	That's freedomainradio.com slash donate.
	Two calls tonight.
	The first one, a little lengthy but well worth digging into.
	It's about a man who believes that he is being gang-stalked.
	And if you don't know what that is, Thank you, Thank you, everyone, for your support.
	Our free domain radio.
	Please check out theartoftheargument.com.
	You can do your shopping at fdrurl.com forward slash Amazon.
	And most importantly, I really hope you enjoy the show.
	Okay.
	First, we have Sanjay.
	He wrote in and said, I am subject to convert harassment since August 2015,
	which I have concluded is state-sponsored and state-funded and is carried out by highly professional and organized security agencies who work closely with local, regional, and national law enforcement and We're good to go.
	I have never been accused of or charged with anything whatsoever.
	Quite obviously, the state resources are being manipulated here for private interests.
	How can I get the state to stop subjecting me to 24-7 constant, horrifying, and humiliating terror?
	That's from Sanjay.
	Sanjay, how are you tonight?
	Hi, Stefan. I'm good.
	How are you? I'm good.
	Man, that is a terrifying experience, right?
	Yes, absolutely.
	All right, so let's go back to the beginning and tell me what happened.
	In the beginning, so I'll start with 2008 or actually 2007 when me and my ex-wife now were separated for about a year and during that year of separation, She came in contact with this organization called...
	I'm sorry, I have been exposed yesterday night and I'm having some difficulty speaking.
	So, speech impairment is also one of the effects of this harassment which includes Directed energy devices.
	So you were attacked or exposed to an energy weapon yesterday and that's interfering with your fluency?
	Well, yes. I'm exposed to these energy devices every day.
	It's not just yesterday night or yesterday, every day, every single day.
	And I'm in Los Angeles.
	So in 2007, me and my ex-wife were separated for a period of about one year.
	At that time, she came in contact with this women's shelter organization.
	Why was she in contact with the women's shelter?
	Because I had left the apartment in which we were staying and my ex-wife, who at that time was my wife, she had just started working a couple of months ago.
	And so she could not figure out how she could live independently.
	But what was going on, Sanjay, what was going on in your marriage that your wife left without any place to go?
	No, she did not leave.
	I left the apartment in which we were staying together.
	Well, but did you leave and then stop paying any kind of rent or utilities?
	Oh, yes. I did stop paying the rent because I was not living there.
	I had to rent another apartment to live.
	Did she have any kind of income?
	She did have an income.
	She had started working just a few months before we were separated.
	But she didn't have enough income to pay for the apartment, right?
	It's difficult to say.
	Probably she had just enough income to be able to pay for the apartment and her expenses.
	And what about your child?
	At that time, we didn't have a child.
	So our child was born in 2011.
	Oh, sorry. Okay. Got it.
	Got it. So you moved out.
	Now, why did you move out? Because we were having arguments.
	We were not speaking much with each other.
	There was a lot of bitterness between the two of us.
	And what triggered my leaving the apartment was that one day, you know, I called her multiple times at our apartment home phone and she would not pick up.
	And then I was really scared that, you know, why she's not picking up the phone.
	I mean, at least pick up the phone.
	And then when I went home, there was no explanation other than that.
	I just didn't want to pick up the phone.
	So a couple of months after that, I moved out of the apartment.
	Well, then that kind of been the immediate incident.
	If it was a couple of months later, you moved out.
	What happened between her not picking up the phone and you moving out?
	Not much, really.
	We were not speaking with each other.
	I was not spending too much time at home.
	If I was at the apartment, I was just looking at my laptop or watching TV, and we were not speaking too much.
	Obviously, it's a long time ago, so I don't remember every single day in that period.
	But I am quite sure that there were arguments.
	If we were speaking, then we were speaking not on friendly terms or in even terms, but we were speaking in accusations and recriminations.
	And how long were you married?
	When did you get married? We got married in July 2003.
	2008? 2003.
	2003, okay. And how long did it take before things went badly?
	So about four.
	Actually, things have been up and down right after the marriage.
	So a couple of months after marriage, she went back to her mom's home.
	Actually, her mom. Not her real mom, but her aunt.
	Her aunt is the one who had raised her after she was five.
	So she moved back with her aunt a couple of months after you got married, and why did she do that?
	Well, yeah, that's also because it's quite a long time ago, but I think there were arguments and There was not a feeling of happiness at that time maybe and I was also not happy so I And maybe because I was not happy,
	she was not happy also. So just...
	Was there any physical violence or aggression in the marriage?
	No. Why did you get married if you didn't get along?
	Well, I'm from India and this marriage happened in India.
	So it was an arranged marriage.
	Arranged marriage in the sense that we We're matched by what is known as matrimonials in India.
	So it's kind of like...
	Sorry, I get it.
	You had arranged marriage.
	Now, so did you live in America for some time?
	You went back to India to have an arranged marriage and then you brought this arranged marriage back to America?
	Is that right? Yes, so it was not exactly like that, but almost like that.
	So I worked in the US for a few years, then I went back to India, I started working in India.
	And that's when, a few months after I started working in India, I got married.
	And do you think that America is benefiting from you and your wife and your child living in America?
	Well, when I came to America, I came to America after marriage.
	I came in 2005, May.
	So my objective was not to benefit America.
	My objective was to benefit myself and my family.
	Well, that's admirably honest.
	So you came here to get stuff from America, not to provide stuff to America.
	Obviously not. I gotta tell you, whatever race you're being hit with, they're not dislodging your honesty.
	And I appreciate that.
	That's very frank.
	Well, actually, it's not that unusual because I'm a software engineer.
	No, no, no. Let's not back away from it.
	That's what was said. Okay, so why did you want to have a child with a woman you weren't getting along with?
	No, so it's not exactly like that.
	So we had some issues in marriage, right after marriage, maybe a couple of months after marriage.
	And then we had intermittent issues once or twice again for the next couple of years.
	But then not next couple of years.
	So after marriage, we had issues for about, I would say, three to six months, maybe.
	And then we got settled and I was happy to I was happy with my job.
	I was traveling. I traveled to London in that period.
	I traveled to the US for a few months.
	And I would travel and my ex-wife would be in India, either staying with her mom, her foster mom, or either staying in our apartment in India.
	So you were working in the software fields in America for some time, right?
	Yes. How long for?
	How long? I have been working in software field in America.
	Yeah. I would say 15, 16 years.
	No, but in America as well?
	Oh, in America. Yeah, actually most of the work that I've been doing has been in America.
	So yeah, so most of the time I've been working in America after I left India.
	So I left I went to India in 1998, worked in America for about four years, then I went back to India in 2001.
	No, actually 2002, and then came back to America in 2005.
	Right. Had your ex-wife been to America before?
	No, she had never.
	She did not even have a passport when we got married.
	Right. And what was her education like?
	Her education?
	She had a Bachelor of Education and she said that she also has a Master's in Botany.
	In Botany? Yes.
	Closing that crucial Botany gap in the American skill set.
	All right. So then your child...
	Was born in 2011, right?
	And you were getting along better with your wife at that point, right?
	Actually, it's a little bit more complicated than that.
	So, as I mentioned that in 2007, we got separated.
	I started staying separately.
	I'm sorry, can you just say that again?
	So, in 2007, I started staying separately in another apartment.
	And she Went to this women's organization and started staying in a shelter that this women's organization.
	And how is the shelter paid for by taxpayers?
	Yes, of course. Excellent. So you bring your wife over to America from India.
	And then she ends up living in a taxpayer funded women's shelter because your marriage is terrible.
	Yes, although at that time she was working.
	So it's not that she was not working, but she chose to live in shelter because they had other facilities there.
	All right. So she has a master's in botany, although I assume that the master's in botany has more to do with Indian botany than, say, American botany.
	She has a master's degree in botany, Sanjay, and what did she end up doing for a living in America?
	So, her first job that she started sometime around November or December of 2007, a few months before we separated, was as an administrative assistant to the executive director.
	So, she was the secretary?
	Oh, yes. Right.
	And her English was good before she came, is that right?
	No. Did she speak English before she came to America?
	Not much, just a few words, I guess, I think.
	So how did she get a job?
	But did she study English, I guess, on the taxpayer's dime?
	Did she study English when she came to America?
	Yes. So when I came to the US on the world permit, H1B, In 2005, May, is when I came to America on H1B. And I asked her to join me in 2005, June, a month after I came.
	So she was just being a housewife and it was going all right.
	I mean, I was working and I was happy with my work and we were watching TV, we were speaking also.
	We had a rather decent home and family life, I would say.
	Although she had been pining for a child, so we did try for a child and she had a miscarriage.
	So that was a major event.
	She had a miscarriage in 2006 and that And that obviously affected her badly.
	Okay, sorry. I mean, I appreciate the information, Sanjay, but that's not what I asked.
	So just, you know, fight through the energy weapon effects and just try and focus on how did she learn English to the point where she was able to be an administrative assistant?
	I assume that she needs to speak English to be an administrative assistant.
	Yeah, so I encouraged her to enroll in a community college.
	Because we were living in Los Angeles and she did a few courses.
	She did courses in English?
	Yes. Yeah. Yes.
	Okay. And then she had, and was it an H-1B visa that you came across on?
	Yes. Right.
	Right. So then she had a miscarriage and was she covered under the healthcare that's provided by your work or how did you guys pay for the healthcare?
	My employer had an transition plan and I was a member of that plan.
	Right. So instead of hiring an American worker, you bring across your wife who doesn't speak English and then has a miscarriage.
	All right. So then you did have the child in 2011, right?
	Yes. And how long after you had the child did your marriage break up?
	About two years, it started fraying on the edges.
	And then in 2014, August, which is about three years and three months after our child was born, she filed for divorce.
	And why did she file for divorce in particular?
	Well, I mean divorce, I don't think that there's a single reason.
	Person files for divorce, so was the case in our marriage.
	But the main reason why the relationship started failing and we have started having arguments around after our child was two years old is because I And our child were very, very attached to each other and we had a very, very strong bonding.
	We were all hanging out together.
	And my ex-wife just could not digest that I was so attached.
	Wait, your ex-wife didn't like the fact that you and your child had a strong bond?
	Yeah. Why?
	I don't know. You tell me.
	I can't tell you, man.
	I wasn't married to the woman.
	I'm sorry about that.
	My question was because I have I largely have my own experience as a business owner.
	Okay, so you don't know. You don't know why your marriage split up.
	You don't know why you weren't getting along.
	Okay, I get it. No, actually, I can explain that.
	Well, hang on, hang on. So, your wife was able to stay because your child is an American citizen being born in America.
	Not quite an anchor baby, but along those lines.
	Is that right? So, if she didn't have a child and you got a divorce, wouldn't she have to go back to India?
	Okay, it's a little bit more complicated than that.
	I had a feeling it might be.
	Yeah. So we came back together in 2009.
	Around August of 2009, we came back together after a separation of about one year.
	And at that time, yes, I was still on work permit and she wanted the child.
	Oh, sorry, Sanjay, I'm just curious.
	So if you bring your wife over and you separate, doesn't she have to go back?
	I'm not sure, but I would think that that might be the case, yes.
	So are you supposed to inform the immigration department that your wife and you are separated And then she would have to go back, or did you just not tell the immigration department?
	Well, we were separated, and I had actually filed for divorce, but then I never followed it up.
	I never went back to the court to ask for the judgment of divorce.
	So we were separated, but we were not legally divorced.
	So in that case, I'm not sure if Well, one phone call could have sorted that out, but I guess you didn't make that phone call, you didn't find out.
	So then she's facing going back to India, and then she gets back together with you, has the child, which allows her to stay in America, and then she divorces you, right?
	Yes. Do you think any of those things might be related?
	Of course they are related.
	So as we see many times that women take advantage of men and they want to have a child, the man is stable and who has income or wealth and then once they have got the hook with which to extract the benefits or other things which they I want to extract and it's all over.
	And increasingly, as you have mentioned so many times, men are becoming very, very dispensable.
	So yes, of course.
	So then she divorced you or she separated from you.
	She doesn't have to leave because she's the mother to, I guess, a US citizen, which is your child.
	And then she goes to what she goes to live at the women's shelter.
	Is that right? No.
	I think there are two events here.
	One is the event in 2008-2009 when we were separated.
	The other is the divorce filing in 2014.
	They are separated by about six years.
	The previous event, 2008-2009, is when I was on an H1B visa.
	But after our child was born, in early 2012, I got the green card.
	In 2014, she was not dependent on her child to stay in America.
	Well, no, but if she wanted to leave you, she was dependent on the child, right?
	Not in 2014.
	Not in 2014 because in 2012, I got my green card through my employer.
	But what does that have to do with your wife's immigration status?
	Uh, because when I applied for my green card, I also applied for her green card.
	Oh, so she got a green card too?
	She got a green card too.
	All right. All right.
	Okay. Got it. Okay.
	So then what's going on with the child custody battle?
	Uh, child custody battle, uh, uh, again, it's complicated.
	It's a long story. So when, uh, uh, that it was finalized in May of 2015, A couple of months before that, actually January 2015, the court had adjudicated that the custody is going to be 50% each parent.
	That was the case until January of 2016.
	In January 2016, I went to the police station to report harassment.
	To report harassment? Yeah, exactly.
	Harassment how? What kind of harassment?
	The harassment is covert harassment.
	Oh, hang on. Sorry, Sanjay.
	I thought you meant from your ex-wife.
	So we'll get to the covert harassment in just a second here.
	But I just want to make sure I understand.
	So there's been this child custody battle going on.
	Yeah. Is she still an administrative assistant?
	She's a project coordinator and all.
	Oh, okay. So how is she paying for the very expensive lawyers that can be involved in family custody battles?
	Well, see, when we divorced, as part of the settlement agreement, I paid her about $75,000 in cash.
	And I also transferred to her retirement Assets to the amount of about $50,000 in her name.
	So has she been using your money to pay lawyers to try and take your child away from you?
	Well, she has been using that money, of course, but also because, I mean, Although the custody battle has been going on for the past three years, it's not as if we are going to the court every month.
	So there have been periods when I have not been able to go to the court.
	So I mean, you've been also tying up the American legal system.
	Not so much, but yes.
	Yeah, I mean, custody battles are long and involved.
	And so that's just less court time available for Americans.
	I just, you know, want everyone to understand the joys of H-1B visas and immigration and migration and so on.
	All right. And what's the status of that child custody battle at the moment?
	At the moment, I have no custody whatsoever.
	Zero? Zero.
	Why? I have been granted 12 hours of visitation.
	Sorry, I can't understand.
	I'm sorry, it's just a little bit of the accident that you have.
	The accident is so familiar to me, I expect to be accidentally hung up on from tech support.
	So you said that you have zero custody, right?
	Zero custody. I have 0% physical custody, 0% legal custody, and I have 12 hours of supervised visitation every week.
	12 hours supervised and so the government is paying for the supervision too, right?
	No. After that, I'm paid.
	Oh, you're paying for the supervision.
	Okay, got it. Yes. But how are you paying for these things if you're not working?
	Yeah, I mean, I'm draining my retirement accounts.
	My retirement accounts are pretty much exhausted.
	I'm on the last legs of any of my financial resources.
	I'm in debt. I love my child so much that even if I have to pay $500 to see her for a few hours, I have been doing that for the last year or so.
	Why did you lose any custody?
	As I said, the court had granted 50% physical and I'm sorry, can you just say that again?
	Yeah, so in January 2015, the court had granted half custody, 50% custody to each of the parents.
	Right. But my ex-wife was never happy with that.
	She was always exhorting me that, oh no, we are not dropping her off to her preschool in time.
	We are not picking her up in time.
	So you should...
	See her only on the weekends, and I should have five days.
	But I, of course, refused because...
	Was she right about that?
	Were you not dropping her off on time?
	To a certain extent.
	So yes, when I would drop...
	I would try to drop her off, then she would start playing games and start crying.
	You know, I want to play a little bit more.
	I want to go to this... I want to get an ice cream first, then I'll go to preschool.
	I want to spend some time in the park, then I'll go to preschool.
	And who was paying for preschool?
	Well, for the preschool, we were paying half an hour.
	I was paying 50% and my ex-wife was also paying 50%.
	How much was the preschool?
	It was $1,500 a month.
	Right. Okay. Right.
	And did your daughter like the preschool?
	No, she did not.
	Why didn't your wife just try and stay home with her?
	Because she wanted to work.
	She liked the income.
	Well, she liked the income more than she liked her daughter, right?
	I would say yes.
	No, empirically. If you're taking money and dumping your kid in preschool or daycare or kindergarten or whatever it is, then clearly you prefer the money to time with your daughter.
	Yeah, but I don't think it's only that.
	It's also that there is peer pressure on mothers to work and be recognized as a woman who Oh, so peer pressure is an excuse?
	Yes. So women fully accept that peer pressure is a good reason to do terrible things.
	All right. That's interesting.
	I wonder how when your daughter gets older and she starts succumbing to peer pressure, what your ex-wife is going to say?
	They won't admit to that because Uh, there are a bunch of other factors also, like, you know, they want to be independent women, they want to be recognized for their work and stuff like that.
	Uh, like, uh, all the, uh, all the women who are, uh, who are in national politics, for example, they exhort women to be, uh, independent and make career out of the, uh, out of themselves as, uh, all the men.
	No, I get that. But women, women say to men, Like a lot of feminists will say to men, even though women believe in this magical patriarchy, that men have to resist it and men have to not do what society says and you got to be more sensitive.
	So the idea that women would use peer pressure as an excuse when they basically have been opposing it through feminism for the past 100 years or so just seems kind of funny.
	Peer pressure is never an excuse for a man, but it's a perfect excuse for a woman.
	Peer pressure is never an excuse for Conforming to an imaginary patriarchy, but it's always a perfect excuse for actually not spending time raising your own child.
	Alright, okay, so that's my little rant there.
	So Sanjay, when did you last work?
	I worked last week, so I was working until last week.
	Wait, you've been working full-time and you just lost your job last week or quit last week?
	I lost my job last week.
	Wow. And that's the job that you had throughout the time period?
	No. I have had many jobs.
	This is the job which I started in August.
	But how many jobs have you had, roughly, since you came to...
	I mean, I guess you're working on your resume.
	You have some idea of this, right?
	So since you came to America, how many jobs have you had?
	Or let's just say, take out the longest job that you have, and then how many jobs have you had?
	The longest job I've had is about 3 years and 9 months.
	And the total number of jobs I've had is around 10.
	10 jobs? 10 jobs.
	And last 3 years alone, I've had 4 jobs.
	But doesn't that make you a terrible worker?
	Simply because, I mean, I've run an IT department and a software coding department.
	Doesn't it take quite a while to get up to speed and to learn the coding practices and to understand the existing code base and to know what needs to be done?
	I mean, aren't you just getting up to speed before the job goes bye-bye?
	Maybe in some circumstances, but not always.
	So, for example, if you're an accomplished You can start contributing to the codebase within two to three days.
	After all, the practices of software development are not very different across different organizations.
	There's going to be a source code repository.
	I don't know. I mean, I get all of that, Sanjay, but I'm just telling you, I never would have let a coder contribute to the code base of the software that I had developed, which was being sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
	I would never have let a coder, after a couple of days, contribute to the working code base of the program.
	Yes, it does take, I would say, to be...
	I mean, in my experience and other people's experiences can be different.
	My experience does take two to three weeks before an engineer, even though an experienced engineer might be able to contribute effectively.
	Over what number of years have you had 10 jobs?
	Around 12 years.
	12 years, okay. And does that include the three years and nine months job?
	Yes, yeah. Okay, so if we take that out, you've had nine or 10 jobs over eight years or nine years, right?
	Oh yes. And is it true that you stay at the places for about a year or so or some longer and some shorter?
	Mostly shorter. So like my last job was about two months.
	Before that, my job was about six to seven months.
	Two months? And another one before that.
	Yeah, the one with- Wait, was it supposed to be two months or was it supposed to be longer?
	It was supposed to be six months and it was supposed to extend depending on the project.
	But I lost it because I've been going through a lot of difficulty and in the last three years I've been very, very difficult to work because I'm also covertly harassed at workplace.
	I'm sorry to say that last bit again?
	Because I also am courtly harassed at the workplace.
	What sort of behavior did your manager or managers see at your previous job that caused them to let you go?
	Like, what did you do?
	Do you think that may have been confusing to them?
	Yeah, so the behavior, not behavior, but that I was not appearing to be interested and I was not contributing as much as I had been contributing when I started, which was only a month and a half before that.
	And also, they actually did not say that I'm being fired because they are having issues with me specifically, but they told me that they are not able to afford the cost.
	Well, certainly, if you weren't being that productive, then they wouldn't be able to afford the cost, right?
	Exactly. Right. But do you think that they may have noticed any unusual behavior on your part related to the gang stalking?
	No. Okay.
	All right. Okay.
	So just before we get to the covert harassment, Sanjay, and I appreciate your patience as I slither through the backstory.
	You said, because we asked people to do this Adverse Childhood Experience score, and you had an Adverse Childhood Experience score of zero, which is extraordinarily unusual even for the West, and I would say virtually unheard of in India as a whole.
	So, was that accurate, do you think?
	I mean, I'll go through it again, just so you have some sort of idea, right?
	So the list is this. Verbal abuse or threats, did you ever experience any of those as a child growing up in India?
	I lost you then.
	Did you ever experience as a child growing up in India any verbal abuse or threats?
	Maybe, but I would say very low degree.
	So did you experience growing up in India any physical abuse, does not include spanking, like hitting or hitting with implements or anything like that?
	No, no.
	Really? Yeah.
	Extraordinarily unusual for India.
	All right. Did you have any experiences with molestation or sex or rape as a child?
	No, not at all.
	Did you ever experience a lack or no family love or support?
	Yes, in some period, especially when I was in my high school, then I did have a cooling off period Not cooling off period, but I had a tense fear with my mom and my dad.
	You had fear of your mom and dad?
	Not fear, but tense.
	I would say not fear, but tense relations.
	A tense relations. And why did you have tense relations, Sanjay?
	Well, because I was in my high school and I was thinking of myself as a man, as a grown-up person.
	And I was thinking that I'm not being accorded as much value.
	I was not being heard as much as I ought to be heard because I'm grown up and I'm smart.
	So yeah, so there was a period which was tense.
	So you wanted more independence than you were getting as a teenager, is that right?
	Yes, that's right. All right.
	Now what about, did you experience any neglect as a child growing up in India?
	Not enough food or dirty clothes, no protection or medical treatment?
	No, not at all. Were your parents divorced at all?
	No, they were not.
	Did you ever see physical abuse towards a female adult?
	Yes, that I think I've seen, yes.
	So my dad I think I remember that my dad might have scolded my mom and might...
	I don't want to go live on this, but he might have used his hands on my mom.
	Yes. You mean he might have hit her? Yes, he might have hit her.
	Wouldn't you remember that?
	No, because it might be that it was just maybe once or twice when I was very young, or maybe I heard that I watched it on TV. Actually, I don't remember that distinctly that he retired, but he might have because they had arguments and they were angry with each other, in particular when I was growing up, in particular when I was really young.
	Like small maybe four six or eight something like that.
	Now did you live with an alcoholic or drug user?
	No. Did you have a household member who was depressed or mentally ill or had a suicide attempt?
	No. And no household member in prison I'm going to assume?
	No. Right.
	Now what was the um were you were you raised uh religious and what was the religion?
	Well, in India the most popular religion is Hinduism and my mom and dad are Hindus and I'm also Hindu but I've never practiced.
	I used to go to temples because everybody else is dead and that's pretty much it and so I was not raised as a practicing religious Hindu.
	Right, okay, okay.
	All right, so I appreciate that background and I guess now we will dig into the subject itself.
	August 2015 is when you say that the covert harassment began.
	Now what happened in August of 2015 that led you this to this conclusion?
	Okay, so can I go back a little bit?
	It's your story, Sanjay.
	However you want to tell it is fine with me.
	So August 2015, the cohort harassment began.
	And it was not the first time that I experienced cohort harassment.
	The first time that I experienced cohort harassment was in August 2008.
	August 2008?
	A few months after I was staying by myself.
	And I had left the apartment.
	Oh, so after you kind of ditched your wife and moved out, you experienced this targeted harassment or this COVID harassment.
	So this has been going on for more than 10 years.
	No, not really. So in 2009 of...
	No, no, but what happened August 2008?
	Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
	So 2009 July, We decided to come back together and stay together again.
	And immediately the covert harassment stopped.
	And there was no harassment until August 2015.
	Okay, so August 2008 was the first time.
	And was it July 2009?
	Yes. You got back together and the covert harassment stopped.
	So the covert harassment people don't like it when you're single.
	Is that right? Oh, that's right.
	No, I'm not trying to make fun of you, like I'm genuinely trying to understand the pattern here, right?
	Because you say it happened when you separated from your wife, but then when you got back together, then the covert harassment stopped, right?
	Yes. And then it started up again, you say, in August 2015, right?
	Yes. Now, what was significant about August 2015?
	In the beginning, there was no significant difference from the way it started.
	No, but was there an event?
	Because you say August 2008 was when you separated from your wife.
	Because we got divorced in May 2015.
	Okay, so it started again because you were separated from your wife.
	Is that correct? I'm sorry, I missed you.
	So the covert harassment started again because you separated from your wife in 2015, right?
	Actually, I separated in 2014.
	So I left the apartment that we were staying in, in November 2014.
	And I got my own apartment.
	But there was something you gave me in 2015 that was part of the divorce process?
	May 2015, the divorce judgment was finalized.
	Okay, okay. So May 2015, divorce finalized, right?
	Yeah. And then the harassment began in August?
	Oh yes. Do you think that the covert harassment group might have been watching you from July of 2009 when you got back together with your wife until the summer or spring or summer of 2015 when the divorce was finalized and then they said, well his divorce is finalized so we're going to harass him again?
	Not at all. So in August 2009, the court harassment stopped completely.
	And it stopped within a space of one to two days.
	That's when you got back together with your wife.
	Yeah, I got back together with her in July.
	And just in that period, I think July itself stopped.
	But they must if it's sorry, Sanjay, but if the harassment is related to you being separated from your wife, Then there was no harassment from July 2009 until August 2015 because you were with your wife.
	Do you think that they were watching you or they were looking for the divorce papers or something like that to start harassing you again?
	No, it's not like that.
	So the harassment at that time was because I was separated and she was a client of this I mean, you could speculate on that.
	They haven't told me why they started.
	It could be a punishment or it could be to force me to come together with her in some way or other.
	Oh, so the government is paying people to harass you so that you'll reconcile with your wife?
	Well, it's difficult to say government.
	So government, is government Trump or is government the state of California?
	Hang on, hang on. Sanjay, hang on.
	You said, which I have concluded is state-sponsored and state-funded.
	That's what you wrote. Yes, but state has multiple actors.
	And is state of California, is that the governor?
	Is that the attorney? General of California.
	So there might be actors who might be able to do something like this and they are part of the state and they are able to authorize this.
	But in doing this kind of thing to a person who has never been accused or charged with anything, is it the state doing it or is it those individual actors who are using the state authority?
	Go do that. So it's a complicated thing.
	Okay. Now, Sanjay, I just want to ask you something before we continue.
	Sure. So it takes a lot of courage, given what you believe, to call into a show like this.
	So let me ask you this.
	What percentage do you think it is likely That I am, in fact, working with these covert harassers.
	In other words, that they've gotten to me, they know that you're calling in, and they're sending me messages, or they've prepped me on how to talk to you.
	Like, do you think that that's a likelihood?
	And if so, what percentage likelihood is it that I'm working with them?
	Well, I have been listening to your podcast for a few weeks now.
	And I understand your philosophy to start the next time.
	And I understand where you are coming from.
	Well, you don't understand it enough to know that it's not my philosophy, but all right, that's good.
	Couple of weeks. We're there.
	Okay. Yeah. So I would say, and at the same time, I am a person who wants to say that anything is impossible because after all, it's probability and statistics.
	So I would say, I would give, you know, if I were to give an answer.
	A few seconds. I would say 1% possibly that may be the case, but 99% no.
	Well, because, so you said 90% no, 10% that I could be working with the covert harassers.
	Oh no, 99% versus 1%.
	Hey, I made it into the 1%.
	Woo! I'm rich.
	Now, do you think that they're also tracking what you do online and through computers and so on?
	Absolutely. So they would know that you've been listening to my show, right?
	Perfect. Right. So, I mean, if they had any idea...
	Oh, and also, if they can read your emails, right?
	You sent emails to my producer saying that you wanted to be in on this show, right?
	Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
	So, I'm not trying to get you going here.
	I'm just saying that in the worldview that you're bringing to this conversation, it's entirely possible that they would have gotten to me in some way, right?
	No, not really. Because you are not an unknown person.
	You are not an unknown entity.
	You have followers. You are a YouTube Personality.
	And some people will say that you are a YouTube celebrity as well.
	And I think you are, actually.
	So why would they risk?
	Oh, I might blow their cover.
	Like if they come to me with, you've got to talk about this with Sanjay, we want you to say this.
	I might blow their cover. Yeah, you have to be a person.
	They might approach like a person who runs a store.
	They're not going to approach Trump to say that, you know, can you do this?
	Right. No, because, I mean, I just want to point this out because there are people who genuinely believe that I'm part of some sinister larger network, that I'm some sort of gatekeeper, that I answer to the Zionist overlords or, you know, something like there are people who believe that I'm part of some, I don't know what.
	And I just want to say straight up to you and to everyone out there, I decide what I talk about.
	I am not part of any big conspiracy.
	I don't take money to alter my opinions or perspectives.
	I don't have any bat signals.
	I don't get any secret coded messages using my Batman decoder ring.
	I don't get any messages inside my Weedabix.
	I just am straight up.
	Now, I also fully understand that if I was part of a conspiracy, that's exactly what I would say, but this is part of the no-null hypothesis problem of this kind of mindset.
	I'm just saying no one has contacted me and I... I'm speaking to you straight man-to-man, just so you know.
	All right. Yes. So, let's go back to August 2008.
	What happened that was out of the ordinary, Sanjay, that led you to believe that you may be targeted?
	Okay, absolutely. So, I would go to the restroom and do my thing.
	I'll do the pee-pee. Oh, like a number one, right?
	Yeah, number one. I always get confused with number one, number two but it's number one.
	So I'll go to the number one and then I'll hear a loud knock or a tap either on the roof or under the toilet.
	Under the toilet? You mean on the floor under the toilet?
	Yeah. Boy, that's a bad job, wouldn't you say?
	You know, like, hey, welcome to the covert harassment unit, my friend.
	We need you to stay under the toilet just in case.
	We're going to bring him lots of water, don't get me wrong, but in case Sanjay has to go, we need you to stay under the toilet and knock.
	And they're like, can I get the roof thing?
	No, that's only after you've been here for a while.
	You've got to earn the roof before that.
	You're under the toilet. All right, so you get a loud knock under the toilet and or on the roof, right?
	Maybe, yeah.
	Actually, I don't remember the stinky, so what I remember distinctly, it was definitely under the toilet.
	But in some other places, other locations, it might be on the roof also.
	Now, of course, the first time this happens, right?
	You say to yourself, well, you know, plumbing makes sounds and things can shift around in the roof.
	And, you know, maybe there's a cat up there or, you know, a big bird landed.
	So for the first time, you're like, oh, that's right.
	You just kind of notice it, but you scooch on by, right?
	Exactly. Okay. And then what happened?
	And then I go off.
	Again, after a couple of hours or next day, and then it happens again.
	Okay, even that's fine.
	Sorry, what was that again?
	So it happens again. The next time you go to the restroom in a restaurant?
	Yeah. Yeah. So I go to the restroom, I do the pee pee, and then it happens again.
	So that's also fine. It can happen.
	Sorry to interrupt. This is the same thing.
	This is the knock under the toilet?
	Yes. Yeah. Yes.
	And so it happens five times and after it happens 10 times in a row, every time I go to a college, that's when I start, why is this happening?
	Is it my neighbor? And this is separate, a different restaurant, is that right?
	No, not restaurant, this is my apartment.
	Oh, it's in your apartment. Okay, sorry, sorry.
	It never happens in a restaurant.
	Never happens in a restaurant. Yeah, so it's my apartment.
	So apartment I've been staying in for say two to three months.
	At that time. Okay.
	So after, say, 10 times, I started really thinking about it.
	That might be my neighbor who's trying to- Just mess with your head or whatever, right?
	Yeah, exactly. And so that's the way I started.
	And then it goes on and then it just becomes a routine.
	So it becomes a routine.
	So it happens every time I go to the restroom.
	And so that is the way it started.
	Did you film any of this or record any of this?
	Yes, at that time I did.
	All right. Did you go to your landlord and say, there are these weird sounds coming from under my toilet?
	No, I did not.
	It's not so...
	I mean, I wish I could, but it's not so straightforward to go to a landlord or something like that.
	You are a man with complications.
	I will certainly say that.
	Why can't you go to the landlord? Why I can't go to the landlord?
	Because... The landlord will come, if he comes.
	And how would the landlord respond to that?
	So if a person reports, if a tenant calls the landlord and tells him that every time I go to the restroom, I hear this loud knock.
	Well, you said you recorded it, right?
	So you'd play back the recording of you going to the washroom like 10 times in a row and this loud knock coming from under the toilet.
	I mean, if I were a landlord, I'd kind of like to know.
	So either I need to bring in an HVAC guy or a priest.
	Because you could play the recording, right?
	Yeah, probably I could, but At that time, I did not think that I had a credible...
	I think in hindsight it was a mistake not to have done that.
	But see, recording something like this, it takes a little bit of thoughtfulness to do something like this.
	You got a cell phone, right?
	I mean, just point and click, right?
	Yeah. Okay.
	Anyway, so you didn't record it and you didn't play it to the landlord.
	So did it continue for the length of time that you stayed in that apartment?
	Yes. And then other things started happening also.
	Like what? This is all in the summer of 2008?
	Yes. Then other things were that I I would wake up after sleep and then when I would wake up I would be extremely boozy and my eyes would be tired although I have had a few hours of sleep and my head would be heavy and I was just feeling like I'm in the fall.
	I mean that's the tongue that I'm using for the first time but I would feel like I'm disoriented.
	I'm nauseous. And I'm not feeling normal.
	So it's kind of like if you have a high fever, then you know that your body is not feeling normal.
	And in fever, you can measure the temperature.
	But in this particular experience that I had, I did not have a temperature.
	But I was feeling nauseous and disoriented and my eyelids were heavy.
	And I felt like I was not able to keep my eyes.
	I felt like I had not slept at all while I had been unconscious for several hours.
	So you'd wake up in the middle of the night and feel tired and woozy?
	Sometimes in the middle of the night, but even when I woke up in the morning, then my head would be heavy.
	I would feel tired and woozy, yes.
	Well, you were going through a lot of stress at this point in your life, right?
	Not necessarily.
	Yes, come on, Sanjay.
	Necessarily. You just broke up with your wife, right?
	Are you telling me that's not stressful?
	Not really. If the relationship is not going well, it's abusive.
	And you are going through a lot of stress because of that.
	Actually, it is a relief. But once you have broken up, it is a relief.
	And I felt that... Wait, how was the...
	Sorry, I may have missed this because I thought you just didn't get along.
	How was the relationship abusive?
	Yeah. Well, it was bad.
	I mean, we were not speaking. We were...
	If we were speaking at all, it was always...
	But that's stressful, right? Exactly.
	So that was stressful when I was with her.
	But as soon as I moved out, it just...
	And yeah, that's stress.
	So you were going through stress.
	Okay, so it's possible, of course it's possible, this doesn't explain the loud knock from under the toilet, but it's possible that you weren't sleeping that well because you were stressed.
	Okay, so did you go and see a doctor?
	Did I see a doctor?
	No, I don't think so.
	Why wouldn't you go and see a doctor?
	No landlord, no doctor.
	Why? You got to check your hormones.
	You got to check your blood work.
	You got to, you know, it could be any number of things.
	Iron deficiency. I don't know.
	I'm not a doctor. Maybe because I had guessed that I had just estimated that, you know, doctor will not be able to do anything about this.
	Well, that's what actually happened when in 2015, I did go to emergency.
	No, but sorry, why? Look, if it's a natural course, right?
	Like if you have some problem with your blood or your hormones or whatever, then the doctor can try and help you with that.
	If you've been poisoned, Yeah.
	Then the doctor can say, hey, man, you've been poisoned, you know, and then you have proof to bring to the police or something like that.
	So I'm trying to understand why no doctor in this situation.
	Actually, I did explain.
	Actually, I take it back.
	So I did go because I was working at that time and I had so I did visit my doctor.
	Oh, you did go to the doctor?
	Two, three times. Yes.
	I mean, it was not specifically to...
	Wait, wait, how are we going from you didn't see the doctor to you did see the doctor?
	Because it sounds to me, Sanjay, I'm going to be perfectly honest with you, it sounds to me like you said, no doctor, and then I pointed out why it would be good, and you're like, oh wait, no, I did see a doctor.
	So I'm having trouble trusting this part of the conversation, to be very frank.
	Yeah, allow me to explain.
	So when you said that, did you see a doctor about this?
	So my thought was, did I see a doctor specifically about this, about what I was going through?
	And the answer to that is no, not about that specifically.
	But did I see a doctor at all?
	Yes, I did. So because I had a doctor and I did go to him for the routine examination.
	I did explain to him my symptoms of what I was going through.
	Oh, you told him about the waking up, feeling tired in the middle of the night, which is okay.
	Well, it's not only waking up in the middle of the night, but after waking up, the kind of experience that I have with my eyes, I might have been good.
	And what did your doctor, did he take blood or she takes blood?
	Yes, so blood and urine and the other things that they do and he did not find anything.
	So your blood work was normal, your urine was normal and so on, right?
	Yeah and I want to add to that that when you say that he might have checked for poison, no they don't check for poison.
	So checking for poison It's a very very specialized area and any toxicology analysis has to be specifically ordered with specific elements that need to be checked for.
	Okay, now was it your theory Sanjay that you were being poisoned in some way or was this one of the energy weapons?
	Well, at that time, I was not so sure.
	So I was trying to figure it out.
	So I was just experiencing this.
	But I didn't know what was exactly causing this.
	And I had very little to use to come to a conclusion that what is the cause.
	And even today, I'm not at 100% conclusion that what is this.
	So it is directly energy weapons or directly devices which I know that exist are classified.
	So you think it's possible, sorry, you think it's possible that in August of 2008 you were being hit through the walls of your apartment with some sort of energy weapon that might have had you wake up in the middle of the night feeling woozy?
	Now I'm certain that that was the case.
	You're certain that that was the case and how did you achieve Certainty in this situation?
	Because of my experience in the last three years.
	Last three years? Okay. Yeah.
	Hang on, sorry.
	We got the knocking, we got the wooziness.
	Were there any other symptoms of this harassment during the year between summer 2008 and summer 2009 when you got back together with your wife?
	Yes.
	What else?
	Thank you.
	I'm always concerned when I hear unzipping and don't see any video.
	Oh, no. I'm sorry.
	You don't hear any knocking at the moment, do you?
	Okay, good.
	Do you remember the question?
	it.
	Because we're trying to have a chat here.
	Yes. Are you still with me?
	Do you need to go to the washroom?
	Because I can wait. Yes, I'm with.
	No, I have my laptop and I was making sure that I still have it.
	Okay, good. All right.
	So what else happened in 08 to 09?
	So when I moved to a new apartment, So in that apartment I couldn't live because of repeated noises and because my health was going down.
	I was feeling that I... Okay.
	Sorry, Sanjay. I know you got hit with a weapon yesterday.
	I do need you to focus and really try and concentrate on getting these words out faster because I feel like I'm almost being hypnotized by Ka from the Jungle Book here, okay?
	So just try and hit the gas here to get these words out.
	So you moved to a new apartment because you wanted to know if the phenomena were going to follow you, right?
	Hello?
	Yeah, hello.
	So I think the other thing was tracking and surveillance.
	I'm sorry, I'm lost.
	I'm not sure what you're saying at the moment yeah so yeah I'm sorry what that so I feel like you're hitting me with a D energy weapon.
	No, I'm the one who's being hit.
	Are you being hit at the moment?
	Yes, it's 24 by 7 and it's always there.
	Do you think you can push through it or shall we reschedule till a time when you're not being hit with the energy weapon?
	No, I mean, This harassment is 24x7.
	Oh, 24x7, so it doesn't matter.
	Okay, so I just need you to, I don't know if you can put something like a colander or something around your head to block.
	Is there anything that can block the energy weapon?
	Yes, there are things that are like a concrete wall is usually able to block.
	Any kind of helmet or head wrap?
	I have been looking around for it, but I couldn't find it.
	Yeah, they're tough to find. So, you left.
	Now, what were the other symptoms that happened from 08 to 09?
	We got the knocking on the toilet and we've got the night wooziness.
	What else? Yeah.
	Okay. So, I would say symptoms, but I would say the confidence.
	of the harassment. So another component, so in this harassment, there are basically three major components.
	One is tracking and surveillance.
	The second is noises.
	The third is directly on radio devices.
	Sorry, the first one was what?
	Tracking and surveillance.
	So tracking and surveillance, noises, and then these energy weapons, right?
	Yes. Okay. And were all three deployed in 08-09?
	Yes. Okay, so what happened in the new apartment that gave you a sense of the noises?
	Yeah, so in the new apartment also one component was the noises.
	So that will be noises of cupboards.
	So I'll go to the kitchen and I'll wash my hand in the sink and there will be a noise of cupboard.
	A noise of what? A noise of a cupboard or a closet door.
	Oh cupboard, okay. Like Sixth Sense openy-closy stuff?
	Yes, right. So a closet door will close.
	So there will be noise of that.
	Sorry, Sanjay, I don't know much about the Hindu religion.
	Are there ghosts or spirits in the Hindu religion?
	Is it possible that you could just be haunted?
	Yes, there are, as in all religions, but I've never been a religious person.
	Well, it doesn't mean, according to your religion, that you can't be haunted, right?
	Yes, but I'm far too rational a person to have any belief in that.
	Well, I got to tell you, that makes it, that has yet to be determined, at least according to me, just so you understand, right?
	I mean, according to you, yes, but according to me, I know that.
	Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. Okay, so you had cupboard noises in the new place.
	What else? So cupboard noises, but not cupboard noises, just random cupboard noises.
	So cupboard noise, a door of a cupboard closing when I am washing my hand in the sink.
	Right. And then I go... Again, maybe after a couple of hours, maybe next day I wash my hands in the sink in the kitchen.
	And then I was like that.
	And how do you think these, how do you think that the cupboards, were they opening and closing like you could see them?
	No, no.
	Wait, you were just hearing the sounds, but the cupboards weren't opening and closing.
	Not in my apartment. And how do you think the sounds then were being produced?
	Yeah, there are multiple ways of producing sounds and noises.
	So one is the actual productions.
	For example, a car door is closed shut, then it produces a noise.
	Now that is one source.
	Other source can be that there can be a speaker which emits a noise or sound, which is that of a car door closing.
	So those are two main sources.
	So you think that there may have been a speaker with cupboard door closing sounds in your cupboards?
	Not in my cupboard because I know my cupboards because it's my apartment so I know my cupboards, they don't have it.
	So either they are cupboards which are being closed in the apartment next to me, next door apartment or they are sound producing devices which are installed somewhere in the In the heating or air conditioning system, HVAC, heating ventilation and air conditioning system.
	Right. Did you record these sounds as well?
	Yes, I did. And I assume that you went to talk to your neighbors and say, are you guys opening and closing cupboard doors that are kind of loud or what?
	No, I didn't.
	So there are multiple reasons for that.
	One, I was single at that time.
	Wait, you were single so you can't talk to your neighbors?
	I don't follow. Well, at this time we are talking about 2008.
	So although I've been in the US for a few years, but still, yeah, I mean, I had hesitation in approaching my apartment manager, although I might have approached him and might just have said that, just ignore it.
	Oh, you were too shy or nervous to talk to neighbors?
	Also, I was not only there, but quite jittery as well, because...
	Sorry, quite what? Also, quite jittery.
	So, you know, I'm... Okay.
	Yeah, I'm anxious at this point of time, because see, it's a combination of things, as I can see now.
	So, not just noises.
	So, noises can only do that much damage.
	They can annoy a person.
	And they can make a person very angry also.
	But noises cannot make a person to be disoriented and nauseous for hours.
	And that happened again at night time or other times as well?
	Okay, so that's also a little bit complicated.
	So yes, most potent Damage is at night time.
	Because you're sleeping, or I'm sleeping, or I'm unconscious.
	And that's when I'm not conscious of what's hitting my body.
	But it's invisible either way, right?
	And if it goes through walls, it doesn't matter whether you're awake or asleep in terms of the weapon hitting you, right?
	But if I'm awake and say an electromagnetic pulse or a series of electromagnetic pulses hit me, and my heart rate goes on very late, I can really sense that when it happened and I can move.
	And so the effectiveness of that over a long, so it cannot be done for a long period of time.
	Now you can also, I'm sure you've thought of this, right Sanjay, but you can get equipment to measure electromagnets, right?
	Like to see them in the, to see if there's magnetism or electromagnetism in the environment.
	Well, I don't know if you just throw marbles, like metal marbles up in the air and see if they stick to the wall or something, but there's ways to test for this, right?
	Right. And what did you try for that?
	Yeah, there are ways, but they are not very effective as Stefan.
	If it's electromagnetism, it's electromagnetism, right?
	There's not some special kind of hidden other dimensional Hogwarts electromagnetism, right?
	No, but if you go to the store, it's not so easy to find devices which can detect electromagnetic fields over a wide range.
	Well, it can't be that wide a range if it's hitting you, right?
	They don't want to hit other people too, right?
	It's got to be kind of focused. No, when I'm saying range, I am saying the range of wavelength.
	So, electromagnetic fields is energy.
	Energy is wavelength. and intensity so the wavelength or everything in this world is energy the sunlight the light the sound so the wavelength or which these energies can be distributed is so large it starts from zero hertz to 100 gigahertz.
	But it would have to be in a frequency that would affect your body, right?
	So it can't be any frequency.
	Exactly. Because some frequencies wouldn't affect...
	It's a fairly narrow range, I would assume, that would affect your body, right?
	If I knew that this is a range which is affecting my body, I would be able to go and get instrument on Amazon or eBay for that specific range.
	Yeah, so just for those who don't know, let me just point out something here.
	Yeah. On Amazon...
	For $39.95.
	And I guess the price of one single AAA alkaline battery, which is actually included, so you don't even have to do that, right?
	So you can get an electrosensor electromagnetic field detector.
	It comes with a whole kit and so on.
	And that's...
	good it's got mostly well it's got a lot of five star ratings a couple of ones that are lower so it's 40 bucks now this does 50 to 60 hertz i'm sure you can get ones that do different uh but there are electro magnetic field detectors available for you know a small amount of money uh yeah so i'll explore that and i'm an engineer also so i can also uh Do that kind of research,
	although it's a little bit difficult for me because I am always on my toes because of 24-7 cohort harassment.
	But if you want to really figure out what type of energy field is being used to do this, you have to have a room full of instruments.
	Well, you don't know that because you haven't even tried one, right?
	No, actually I haven't.
	So I think I might have the instrument that you have looked up on Amazon.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Now we have round two of me asking you a question and getting different answers.
	The first one was, did you see a doctor?
	And then you said, I didn't.
	And then I did. And then I say, did you try electromagnetic detection?
	and you said no and then you say well yes right no I mean I can't counter that because I have been having these devices for the last two years So I have three or four devices which I've used.
	And have they found anything?
	Well, I mean, again, it's a little complicated because I'm not an Oh, Sanjay, okay.
	Okay, so hang on a sec. I need you to just take a pause here because clearly you've been online and you've talked to people.
	You didn't come up with gang stalking or covert harassment all on your own because it's a phenomenon on the internet, right?
	So people feel that they are, believe that they're being stalked or harassed in this kind of way.
	And so there is a collective Borg brain or a hive mind that you can ask, how do you detect these weapons, right?
	And they will tell you, oh, listen, I'm sure someone with a lot of resources, maybe even a lab, has been targeted in this way.
	And what they do is they say, oh, I've scanned the whole thing and here's the frequency that they're using.
	And so the idea that you're starting completely from scratch when there are a lot of people out there who believe that they're being harassed in this kind of way, Who can ask each other, and this has been going on for decades, for a lot of time, right?
	Certainly for you, the first time was a decade ago, more than a decade ago now, I suppose, it's September 2018.
	And so there are other people out there who have spent a lot of resources, a lot of time, and a lot of years trying to detect these directed energy devices, right?
	Not really. Again, it's not DAX report.
	It's not what? It's not that straightforward.
	It's a little bit more complicated than that.
	Oh, it's more complicated? Yes.
	Okay. So, the thing is that there is, on the internet, there are hundreds of websites which speak about co-authentic visuals and gang-stalking.
	But many of these websites are just spreading misinformation.
	They are not giving specific information.
	They are crazy.
	Well, no, I can't conclude that because I don't know who created that website.
	But what I can say from my personal experience, I know what I'm going through.
	I know what the truth is as far as I'm concerned.
	So many of these websites actually seem to be operated by these very harassment agencies.
	Oh, so the covert harassment people set up websites complaining about covert harassment?
	Yes, complaining and spreading this information and thereby the intention is to Not degrade, but denigrate the individuals who are complaining of this.
	Yeah, no, it's kind of like the flat-earth people say that there's flat-earth mis-info, dis-info people and so on, right?
	Yeah, exactly. So how do you know the difference between genuine covert harassment websites and disinformation covert harassment websites?
	Well, because I... Okay, so there are a few things that a person who is not being covertly harassed can use.
	If it is a very polished website and it speaks about the injustice of it, it speaks about the evil of it but does not give any specific information that How you can avoid it?
	What exactly it is?
	Have you found anyone who can reliably tell you how to avoid it?
	I mean, I assume you're calling to me, Sanjay, because you haven't found anyone who can help you to avoid it.
	Exactly. So saying, well, it's not real if they don't tell you how to avoid it, while at the same time saying no one knows how to avoid it, that doesn't make sense.
	And I'm simply holding you to your own standard where you say you're too rational to believe in ghosts, right?
	You understand that there's no disproof there, right?
	No, I didn't understand your point there.
	Oh, sure. So if you say, well, it's not a real covert harassment website if it doesn't tell you how to avoid it, while at the same time saying you've never found anyone who knows how to avoid it, then none of them can be real websites, right?
	Okay. I think you have a very good point there.
	What I also wanted to say that they will not specifically talk about what exactly constitutes covert harassment.
	So although the website is polished, a lot of time has been spent.
	But they usually avoid speaking about what are the components.
	So they will be speaking more about the feelings, like, you know, injustice of it, the evil of it, and the government is involved in it, the government is doing it, and security agencies are doing it, but they don't specifically speak about what are the components.
	And this, in my personal experience, this COVID harassment is very, very comprehensive, highly professional, highly organized.
	It's a comprehensive harassment regime.
	which consists of more than 30-40 types of assessments with different, more than 30-40 types of techniques which include noises and type energy devices and it's a very, very comprehensive and so none of the websites actually speak about that.
	Most of the websites speak about How hard their life has become, or how harmful this is, and how evil it is, and how government is involved, but they don't talk about the specifics.
	Alright, so Sanjay, what's happened over the last couple of years?
	Yeah, last couple of years, a bunch of things have happened.
	So, we are in September 2018.
	September 2016 will make it a couple of years.
	So, in January 2016, I went to the police to Report court harassment at a police station in Los Angeles.
	And they just, the police, you know, I didn't know that it's a very very bad idea to go to police for anything at that time because unfortunately the image that is created about the police is that they serve you, they help you.
	So I got bamboozled, I got But you understand it's tough for the police when you go and say, I have noises under my toilet and cupboard sounds, and I'm woozy.
	There's not much for the police to do there, right?
	I mean, if you, with all of your expertise, intelligence, internet access, and community can't detect anything, I'm not sure how the two-finger cop typist Flatfoot is going to be able to rip the veil off this conspiracy, right?
	Exactly. And that's what I thought.
	That's why I went to the police.
	I was not expecting much. So I just went to the police just hoping that I would put a little bit of a king in the efforts that these harassment officers were putting.
	So I was not expecting much.
	But what happened at the police station was horrifying.
	So the police officer was on duty at the death He told me that hang around, we'll have a person come over and they'll take care of your problem.
	And then there was a lady who called herself Sandy.
	She came an hour or two later and she asked me a few questions which I answered honestly.
	Not that just I'm being harassed, the components of harassment, the noises in my apartment and I suspect that there are electromagnetic You told the police investigator this woman you told the police investigator about invisible energy weapons that were making you woozy.
	Well, I don't know whether she was an investigator, but yes.
	Okay, that's not the important part.
	I mean, you understand that to outsiders, it sounds nuts, right?
	You understand that? Yes, it does.
	Yes, it does. So, why wouldn't you just start with the stuff that can be easily measured, like sounds, right?
	Because the moment you start talking about energy weapons, what does the police person do, right?
	Actually, that's what I thought.
	I mean, the police will say, oh, you know, we don't believe you.
	Just go back home or something like that.
	But what that lady did...
	Wait, go back home. Oh, I see what you mean.
	Sorry. Go back home. Yeah.
	Just go back home.
	But what that lady did is that she had a mental filter going on.
	So anything that...
	You know, I actually went to the police station from my work in lunch hour.
	I drove to the police station in lunch hour.
	And so that lady had an interfilter going on and she decided that I was reporting hearing voices while I never said voices.
	I'm sorry, you were reporting what?
	So I was saying that that lady decided that I reported hearing voices.
	I reported hearing voices.
	No, that's not true. It was other sounds, not voices.
	Yeah, exactly. So she had a mental failure going on and she twisted whatever I told her.
	But I mean, sorry, Sanjay, I'm just trying to understand, right?
	Yeah. So you won't talk to your landlord, you won't talk to your neighbors, you won't talk to your doctor about what's going on, but you'll tell the police about energy weapons.
	Like, I don't understand.
	Why would you, of all the people to say, I'm hearing or I'm being subjected to energy weapons, the police by far have the most authority over you.
	So I can't understand why you wouldn't go to the doctor, you wouldn't go to the neighbors, you wouldn't go to the landlord, but you'll tell the police about energy weapons.
	Actually, you know, actually I will, I will re-say that.
	So I, my intention to go to the police was to check.
	If they have heard, if any other fathers have reported harassment like this.
	Wait, is the story changing again?
	No, it's not changing.
	It is, because you said you went to complain about being harassed.
	and now you're saying you went to check and see if other people had been harassed see when i point out a trouble with your story you change the story Well, it's a complicated matter.
	No, no, no. Contradictions are not complicated, Sanjay.
	Contradictions. You understand I'm trying to help you, right?
	Well, of course I do.
	Okay, so listen, just so you understand, because I don't want this to get combative.
	I mean, it might, which is not the end of the world, but if I could free you from this belief and you could have a happier, safer life, that would be good, right?
	Because you have for sure wondered if you're crazy, right?
	Not this time.
	In 2008, probably I did.
	You've never seriously looked in the mirror and said, maybe my belief is mistaken.
	Maybe I'm misinterpreting things.
	Maybe I'm having auditory hallucinations, which can happen.
	Maybe I'm stressed.
	And you have never said to yourself that maybe I have a mistaken belief about covert harassment.
	Not once. Since August 2015, not once.
	This is three years.
	So what's the proof? Not a single time.
	What's the proof? Because you understand from the outside, the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the proof that is required, right?
	Proof, yeah. I understand, yeah.
	So let me ask you this.
	Have you been back to India since 2008?
	Yes. When did you last go back to India?
	When did I last go to India?
	I was last in India this year in May.
	Okay. Did any of these occurrences happen in India?
	Yes. Oh, so they followed you to India too?
	Yes. See, now that's an indication that the story doesn't hold together very well.
	Not really.
	I mean, I don't think of it that way.
	A little bit, a little bit.
	You have to admit, just a tiny bit, right?
	Of course, yeah, I admit that.
	But the explanation for that is that the harassment agencies or harassment apparatus, which is able to do this, is not only just highly professional and organized, but also it is large No, they've got international reach. But let me ask you this.
	You say one explanation...
	Hang on a sec. So you say one explanation as to why they're still bothering you in India is that they have international reach.
	Is there any other possible explanation as to why you had these experiences in India?
	There is no other explanation.
	Yeah, there is. There really is.
	Okay. If I'm thinking...
	If you're thinking of the explanation that I'm thinking, then that explanation does not hold in my experience.
	There is another explanation.
	You may not agree with it, but there is another explanation.
	Okay. Right? You understand, right?
	I'm not saying you have to agree with it, but the only explanation for what you're experiencing is not just massive state-sponsored international covert harassment, right?
	That's one explanation, and it's an extraordinary claim.
	There are other explanations that are less extraordinary, but are personally more difficult, like emotionally.
	Not only, no, actually personally, emotionally, maybe even if one person, I think a person might be able to handle it.
	But my answer to that is they are equally unverifiable.
	So... No, but if...
	Okay, but this goes back...
	Hang on, hang on. So this goes back to something as simple as...
	The simplest explanation is usually the most probable, right?
	So if you have two non-falsifiable hypotheses as to why this stuff is happening or you're experiencing this stuff, you understand that the simplest explanation is usually the best, right? Or usually the true one.
	I'm sorry, if you can repeat that, please.
	So if you have two competing explanations for a particular phenomenon, then the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, right?
	Not necessarily. I said usually.
	You have to listen. I didn't say always, right?
	So when I say usually and you say not necessarily, we're kind of saying the same thing.
	It's just that I know you're not listening.
	Well, I can't say yes to that because I haven't really thought about it in that way.
	So if I take a simple example like rain, I mean, the simplest explanation is that there's God.
	Sorry, the simplest explanation is what?
	The simplest explanation of rain is that there's God.
	And then God says, oh, I want to have rain and he starts the rain and there's rain.
	So that's simple. But the A real explanation which we know now because of our understanding of atmospheric sciences.
	No, but God is not a simple explanation.
	God is not a simple explanation at all.
	Because the simplest explanation is just material forces and energies working on each other.
	The most complicated explanation is some omniscient, all-powerful, incomprehensible being is waving his magic wand and making the water droplets do this or that based upon his own particular whims.
	That's an incredibly complicated explanation.
	Yes, in 2018, you can say that because you're in Canada and you have had a vacation.
	But even in 2018, Okay, I don't want to have a philosophical conversation about Rain.
	I want to get back to you. Hang on.
	I don't want... Because you're going to try and draw me into abstractions to try and get me away from what's going on with you.
	So my question remains, Sanjay.
	Yeah. What?
	Well, before we get to that, what happened with the policewoman?
	Right. So she wrote a report that...
	Oh, that you're hearing voices. Yeah, I'm hearing voices.
	I'm hallucinating. So I should be confined to a mental health facility or a psychiatric facility.
	Now, was this shocking to you?
	It was very shocking. It was shocking to you that you go to the police and you say that you're being targeted by sinister shadowy forces you can't prove, that you're hearing auditory hallucinations, and you believe that invisible energy weapons are coming through the walls and making you woozy when you wake up at night.
	You really shot that the police would interpret that as signs of potential mental illness.
	Yes, it was shocking to me.
	I mean, I was going to work.
	Why would that be shocking to you?
	I did not have that understanding of authorities or police at that time.
	No, this is not an understanding of the police, although that helps.
	But you understand if someone came to you in 1998, right?
	Like, let's go back to Sanjay of 20 years ago, right?
	Somebody comes to you in 1998 and says, people are hiding under my toilet making knocking sounds.
	People are installing...
	Sound devices in the HVAC system to simulate the closing of cupboard doors just to bother me.
	And there are invisible energy weapons that are making me woozy.
	We're going back to Sanjay 20 years ago.
	What would you say to that person? I mean, it's difficult for me to be objective about this.
	I get it. It's an exercise in imagination.
	Well, you know, I mean, even if I'm an imaginary person, But my personal experience is so direct and so obvious and so close to me.
	No, but if you had not experienced what you experienced.
	Yeah. Right? Because here's the challenge is that...
	Yeah. This is isolating you enormously, right?
	And so, you need to try and see it from somebody else's point of view.
	Now, you were unable to see it from the police's point of view, because otherwise, you wouldn't have gone to them, right?
	Because that's not what you wanted.
	You are making it sound like I should have been, but I don't agree with that.
	Because, I mean, if you look at the image that the police have in the media, in the mainstream media, and overall, I mean, it's a very different image than what actually it is.
	No, I'm pretty sure.
	No, Sanjay, I've never seen somebody saying what you're saying and the police saying, yeah, sounds great.
	We'll start investigating the HVAC system.
	Well, maybe.
	I've never heard that also, but if you If you go through the news carefully, then HVAC systems are very commonly used by the countries for espionage on other countries.
	For example, in Boeing 737 which was sold to China, they had found HVAC system in the plane riddled with auditory Sure, spy planes have sensors.
	I get that. I get that.
	But you are not a Boeing 737 that's being sold to China.
	All right. So what happened with the police when they said that they wanted to confine you?
	What happened? So I was confined to a psychiatric facility.
	I spent a week there.
	And as soon as I came out, the very next day, my ex-wife...
	She sent me an email that I want to do an agreement with you.
	She wants to do an argument, did you say?
	No, an agreement. So I told her that I am out of the hospital now and at that time I had 50% custody, both legal and physical.
	So I want to see my daughter. So before I had gone to the hospital...
	Okay, sorry, sorry. Hold on a sec.
	Hold on a sec. Sorry, sorry about this.
	I just want to make sure I follow.
	Okay. So you go to the police, you tell them this and they commit you, right?
	Yes, right. Now, did anything occur in the psychiatric facility of this nature?
	Did anything occur in the psychiatric facility?
	Yes. No, nothing.
	When I was there, they were giving medication.
	Wait a minute. You went on medication and the sound stopped?
	No, no, no. Oh, okay.
	You're asking if I was harassed.
	No, I was not harassed in the psychiatric facility.
	So, but why, if you could be harassed in India, Which is half a world away.
	Why would you not be harassed in the psychiatric facility?
	Oh, exactly. No, don't say exactly that.
	That explains anything. I really, really want to know.
	Why were you not harassed in the psychiatric facility?
	Well, before answering that...
	You don't have an answer.
	I don't want you to make up an answer in the moment because that's insulting to us both.
	You don't have an answer as to why you were not harassed in the psychiatric facility, right?
	See, my answer to that is I'm not privy to what are the techniques What is the exact harassment regime?
	Were you put on medication in a psychiatric facility?
	Yes, I had medication.
	And were you given therapy?
	Not individual therapy, but we had group sessions once a day, I think.
	And did they recommend that you stay on medication after you left the psychiatric facility?
	Yes, they did. And did you stay on medication?
	No, I did not. You did not, okay.
	And how long after you stopped taking, what did they put you on?
	Was it anti, I'm not even going to guess, but what was it that they put you on?
	Do you know? I think I remember it was some kind of anti-psychotic medication.
	Right. Anti-psychosis, yeah.
	Now my understanding, and please understand I'm no psychiatrist and no doctor, but my understanding is that psychosis can come with auditory hallucinations, right?
	Well, pretty much any psychiatric illness can come with auditory hallucinations.
	Now, these are other explanations.
	There is actually no psychiatric illness, which I know of, which cannot come with auditory hallucinations.
	So that's where the psychiatry is.
	So there is probably no psychiatric condition.
	Which cannot be accompanied with auditory hallucinations.
	So that's the way the psychiatry is.
	Psychiatry is not a science.
	Well, no, I think things like anxiety and so on, they don't necessarily come with auditory hallucinations.
	Those are feelings. Those are feelings.
	But auditory hallucinations...
	No, there's major depressive disorder.
	There's social anxiety disorder.
	There are lots of disorders that don't come, to my knowledge, with auditory hallucinations.
	But they can be accompanied by them.
	And same is the case in psychosis.
	Psychosis does not necessarily have to have auditory hallucinations.
	No, I understand that.
	But it can come with auditory hallucinations, right?
	And I was saying that any psychiatric condition can be accompanied with auditory hallucinations.
	Okay. Do you want to go through this debate again?
	Because you're not listening. Okay.
	Do you recognize that something like a major depressive disorder is considered to be a psychiatric condition?
	Do I recognize that the major depressive disorder is considered to be a psychiatric condition?
	Yes. Okay. Does a major depressive disorder come with auditory hallucinations?
	It can be accompanied with auditory hallucinations.
	Okay, I will look that up.
	Yes. You could absolutely be right.
	Let's see here.
	Well, the thing about psychiatric...
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Let me just have a look here.
	Sure. You see here, let's see here.
	This is just wiki, so this is not anything technical.
	But a person having major depressive episodes usually exhibits a very low mood which pervades all aspects of life and an inability to experience pleasure in activities that were formerly enjoyed.
	Depressed people may be preoccupied with or ruminate over thoughts and feelings of worthlessness, inappropriate guilt or regret, helplessness, hopelessness and self-hatred.
	In severe cases, depressed people may have symptoms of psychosis.
	These symptoms include delusions or, less commonly, hallucinations, usually unpleasant.
	So, the psychosis has to be layered in, as far as I understand it, to the depression in order for there to be hallucinations.
	Well, the thing about psychiatry, and I don't know what your stand is on psychiatry, but some people believe that psychiatry is a total fraught.
	It's not even a science. It's not even a medical science.
	I'm not endorsing any of this.
	I'm just saying that technically you can have mental illnesses or mental disorders which do not include hallucinations, typically.
	Yes, but psychiatry cannot be used effectively to define people's conditions because it is based on On fake research or pseudoscience.
	Okay, so what you're saying, Sanjay, hang on, hang on.
	So what you're saying is that you're very skeptical of psychiatry, but not of covert energy weapons.
	I am very, very skeptical of psychiatry.
	I think it's a fraud and, you know, I mean, a few people, not too many people, but many people online MDs and people who have practiced medicine and psychiatry.
	Oh yeah, I've got a whole presentation called There's No Such Thing as Mental Illness.
	Hang on.
	So let's get back to the proof aspect of things, right?
	So you're certain of this to the point where you've never really thought of, at least not for 10 years or so, you've never really thought that you may be misinterpreting things, that there may not be A covert group of people spending millions of dollars a year to harass you with knocks and noises and invisible energy weapons, right? So what is it that gives you this level of certainty about this?
	Because if you're wrong, that's terrible, right?
	If you're wrong about this, if there isn't a big covert group of people spending millions of dollars to harass you with energy weapons and knocking noises, then that would be a terrible thing because it would ruin your life and it would never be solved because the problem then is inside your head rather than out there in the world.
	So if you're wrong about this, you're destroying your life completely and you're destroying your relationship with your child.
	You're precluding any possibility of getting back together with your wife.
	You're destroying your career.
	You're destroying your health. You're destroying your peace of mind.
	You're destroying your capacity for intimacy and friendship and love and connection and community and you name it.
	If you're wrong, it is a wanton act of self-destruction.
	You have to knowing what the cost is and you phoned in or you wrote in because you know the cost of this Sanjay.
	Given the cost, You would have to have a very high standard of proof because the cost is unbearable, right?
	This is an unbearable existence to live, which you have, right?
	So tell me how you got to the certainty that holds this up.
	So one proof that I have, which...
	which...
	is why I am certain in my beliefs is that when I'm able to evade harassment then I feel totally different.
	So for example, in 2009 when me and my ex-wife got together and we had patched up, the harassment really stopped.
	After that there were no such noises, repeated noises, harassment, no tracking incidents, no oozyness or disorientation or swollen eyes or feeling of nausea.
	So that was one. And then in the past three years, there have been many times because I've been constantly on my toes trying to evade this harassment.
	So I am changing my places, I'm changing where I sleep, sometimes I sleep in my car, sometimes I go to an Airbnb, sometimes I go to a friend's place.
	So when many times when I'm successfully able to be in a secure place where it's not possible or the harassment agencies are not able to expose me to When you feel secure, right? When you feel secure, you're happier.
	No, it's the other way around.
	So I go to some new place and I don't know if I'm secure here or not, because it's covert.
	So it's not an ounce to me that we are going to expose you.
	It's not an ounce. So only the next day, I'm able to tell whether these agencies were able to expose me or not.
	So I don't know before fact that I'm secure.
	Okay, let me ask you this, Sanjay.
	Yeah. Has it occurred for you that other people are in the room when this knocking or these sounds occur?
	And what do they do?
	Yeah, so Stephan, I would request you to think of this also as As a psychological form of terror.
	I'm sorry, a psychological form of what?
	Psychological form of terror and harassment.
	So there's a very significant psychological component here in this harassment.
	I just want to cut it short because we've been talking for over two hours.
	So I don't want to mean the whole conversation.
	So you're going to tell me that no one else has heard these sounds because it's more tortuous for you if they don't.
	No, they have heard.
	They have heard. Oh, they've heard the same?
	Yes. Who's heard the same?
	For example, my roommates I've stayed with, my relatives or brothers I've stayed with.
	Oh, your relatives in India, say?
	Yes. So actually, yeah, I wanted to So I've been to India multiple times.
	Okay, so I don't need the whole background.
	So other people have heard these sounds.
	Are they also getting hit with the energy weapons?
	No, they are not.
	So how do the energy weapons just hit you?
	If they're through a wall, how do they know where you are?
	Well, I mean, that is a couple of things.
	So first, they have to pinpoint the location of the target, which is me.
	And then they have to be able to target the energy device on me.
	So that's two different things. And there are ways and means that can be done.
	I mean, there is science, there is technology around.
	Now it's not in the public domains.
	Oh, so it's just science and technology is your answer.
	That's not an answer.
	Okay. So here's the fundamental question.
	Why are they doing this? What is to be gained?
	Because the government, let's say that they're spending $2 million a year on this kind of harassment.
	I mean, they've got to fly people all over the world, depending on where you are.
	They've got to track you with giant energy beam weapons that only hit you and not your friends or whatever.
	They're spending $2 million.
	So $2 million is coming into some government department and they're spending it to target you every year rather than keep that money for themselves or use it to buy hamburgers or whatever it is, right?
	Go to some conference somewhere in Hawaii.
	Why are they spending this money?
	Why are they expending these resources to annoy you and debilitate you?
	Because, Stefan, that's not the way it works.
	So why there are lots?
	Why there are billions of dollars spend on lots?
	Why don't they keep the money to themselves?
	No, it's not the way it works.
	So there are agencies, there are personnel, there are organizations, there are corporations who, if it is a highly professional and organized network, which has international affiliates, and they can do it internationally.
	So it's kind of like espionage and counter-espionage.
	Okay, I need you to focus on the answer, Sanjay.
	Why are they doing this?
	To you? To me?
	Because of the custody battle that we have been going on.
	I've been fighting. I've been pushing.
	Why are they doing it to you?
	Because of the custody battle?
	But you've already lost the custody battle.
	Why is it continuing? Because I'm going back again and again.
	I just filed a motion.
	There's no reason whatsoever for me not to have Sorry, I just want to make sure I understand this.
	Sorry to interrupt you. I just want to make sure I understand.
	So the answer is that the reason that they're doing this targeted harassment is because of the custody battle.
	Yes, because...
	So why did it start then before you even had a child?
	Because that time it was not the custody battle, but it was the separation.
	Why do they care if you're together with your wife or not?
	Millions of people get divorced in America every single day or every single month or every single six months.
	Hang on, let me finish. Millions of people get separated, right?
	Millions of people get divorced.
	Millions of people have custody battles every single year.
	So why are they focusing on you?
	Because it certainly isn't the case.
	That everyone who goes through a divorce and a custody battle gets targeted in this way.
	So why you in particular?
	Because millions of people who go through divorce don't have a women's shelter organization involved.
	Sorry, don't have what? Don't have a women's shelter organization involved.
	They don't have a women's shelter?
	No, no, no. Lots of people have women's shelters involved.
	Lots of women leave abusive husbands, go to women's shelters, and they make friends with the people in charge of them, and the people in charge of them care to keep these women safe.
	So yes, lots and lots of people end up with women's shelters involved in their divorces.
	Okay. So, I mean, say if there are a million divorces, so maybe, you know, 5% of them?
	And maybe 5% of them have a women's shelter organization or some such organization involved.
	And so maybe out of those 5%, maybe only 10% or 15% are the ones who become targets of covert harassment.
	So that is a small number. I mean, if a person is a target of covert harassment, it's very difficult to counter this because this is so Highly organized and professional and so difficult to break.
	But how does a women's shelter get access to international harassment spy rings?
	Well, they don't.
	They don't. So women's shelter organizations basically are part of the network of politics.
	So they have district attorneys on the board.
	So there's a district attorney's office board.
	And district attorneys...
	Sorry, who's on the board? The district attorneys.
	District Attorney. Okay. Yeah.
	So District Attorney. And what is District Attorney?
	District Attorney is in general view.
	And District Attorney's office is an office which is political, highly political office.
	And the California, I mean, there's obviously this politics and there's a lot of money also in California.
	And if they end up spending, say, $100 million on these kind of court harassment, Without any checks or balances or without any scrutiny.
	I mean, who cares? California has like a trillion dollar budget a year.
	And then because it is highly professional, highly organized, it's very, very likely that this is something Which has been developed or is used by national intelligence agencies like CIA or FBI. And it's quite likely that FBI or CIA might actually be cooperating with this or might actually be doing this.
	I mean, who knows? I don't know. I just know my experience.
	Hang on. So what is the purpose of harassing you because of the custody battle?
	What are they trying to achieve?
	It's an excuse. So like, for example, what is the purpose of war?
	I mean, it's an excuse. There's military industrial complex.
	They have to deploy their people.
	They want to make money. They have to build the government.
	So it's an excuse. And...
	No, but if they... Hang on. Hang on.
	Yeah. If they...
	I mean, war is horribly profitable, right?
	So how is it profitable for them to target you spending millions of dollars in this way?
	Well, there are two types of profits.
	One is financial profit, which might not be so much maybe, you know, maybe a few hundreds of millions of dollars every year.
	But say if there is a harassment agency which is able to form a network, a nexus.
	No, no, no. You just go on these rambles.
	Help me to understand, Sanjay.
	How is it profitable for them to target you?
	What do they get out of it?
	How do they win?
	Do they want to help your wife?
	I mean, why? What is their purpose in it?
	Why are they doing it? I mean, obviously, ostensible purpose is that my wife wants to keep, my ex-wife wants to keep me.
	Wants to keep you away from your child, right?
	Exactly. Okay, but there's lots of ex-wives who want to keep husbands Yeah.
	Away, or ex-husbands away from their children.
	Yeah. Why does she get the super spy agency working on her behalf?
	Why? Because they don't have the connections.
	They don't have the connection. What does that mean, they don't have the connection?
	They don't have a women's shelter organization backing them.
	No, no, no, but lots of women go through women's shelters and lots of women want to keep custody.
	Why does your wife get, in particular, in specific, this incredible help in having her retain custody?
	Now, the assumption is that nobody else is getting, and that assumption is not true strictly, because I know at least one person who has gone through this harassment, and there are only I see that there are hundreds of people speaking about it, and they can't do anything about it.
	Okay, so you're not answering my question, which means to me that I'm doing something useful.
	I don't know.
	You don't know.
	See, just tell me you don't know, if you don't know.
	Because from the outside, the fact that your wife wants custody and therefore you get Millions of dollars worth of harassment targeted at you.
	You understand that's not possibly sustainable.
	They can't possibly spend that much money for all custody disputes for anyone who might be involved in a woman's shelter, right?
	So they have to be targeting you for some reason.
	Now, why? No, you have to look at it another way.
	I really don't, but go ahead.
	Yeah, I'm sorry about that.
	But, you know, explanation is complicated.
	Or it's not.
	It's a possibility. It's possible.
	I won't rule out that possibility, but I'm also not 100% certain about this.
	They have not informed me. I have not been sent a letter or an email that we are going to do this to you.
	Until you do this, we'll keep doing this.
	There is politics obviously involved.
	When you say obviously involved, sorry.
	I don't know if you've been speaking to the Mirror a lot, Travis Bickle style, but when you say obviously there's politics involved, it's not obvious to me that there's anything involved other than you may be mistaking fairly innocuous information for a sinister plot.
	Okay. It's like you say, obviously, well, this is obviously, it's not obvious.
	That's the whole, that's why you're calling in, right?
	You're calling in as a last dish attempt to try and get this monkey off your back.
	I know that's why you're calling in.
	I know you're going to find me like crazy, right?
	Not just because these are your particular ideas, but because...
	Well, a stubborn Indian man.
	Never met that before in my life.
	Never met a stubborn Indian guy before.
	Right? So you called in partly because you knew that I wasn't going to agree with you, right?
	You know that. No, actually, it's the other way around.
	I thought that you would immediately recognize that this is a nexus of women's shelters and politics.
	You genuinely thought that I would agree with you about this covert harassment.
	Absolutely. So you have a very difficult time reading people, which is why you ended up being committed by the police, because you thought the police would be all kinds of help, right?
	No, I won't say that.
	So listen, you have a very difficult time reading the outside world, Sanjay.
	Do you understand what I'm saying here?
	You get things wrong.
	You got it wrong with the police.
	You got it wrong with the woman you married.
	You got it wrong with me.
	So you got everything wrong, at least a lot of things wrong that you're talking about, but you have this covert harassment totally right.
	No, I admit that I... I can be wrong and obviously...
	You could. It's possible.
	Let's just say 1%.
	Is it 1% possible that you could be wrong about this?
	Covert harassment stuff. There's not even 0.1% chance.
	So where is your proof, man?
	Give it to me.
	I can define secular ethics in 30 seconds to 60 seconds, and I've done it before.
	You've been living with this for 10 years.
	Give me your succinct 100% proof.
	No, not 10 years.
	So starting in August 2015.
	No, no, first time, I know, I didn't say, yeah, I didn't say permanent.
	The first time was August 2008, with the knock-knock under your toilet.
	Right, right. Okay, so give me your 99.9% certainty that all of this is happening, because you have no proof that you've mentioned.
	Yeah, I mean, it's difficult to get proof of some, it's difficult to have proof of like this, that's the only explanation I can give, because it's cold water.
	I'm sorry, I didn't understand the only explanation you can give, and I'd really like to hear it, because...
	No, it's difficult to find a proof because it's scored.
	It's kind of like... Okay, okay.
	So Sanjay, you're telling me how rational you are, right?
	Absolutely. Okay.
	You haven't found any proof for a very wild hypothesis, right?
	No, you haven't. No, you haven't.
	You haven't. No, no, no, no, no.
	I've got to be firm here.
	I'm not going to give you this rope because I know what you're going to do with this rope.
	I don't have any proof. You have no proof of a very wild hypothesis, right?
	It's... I mean, I won't call it hypothesis.
	I would say... You won't call it what?
	What is happening? I won't call it hypothesis.
	Hypothesis is something that...
	No, if it's not proven, it's a hypothesis.
	By definition! If it's proven, it's more of a theory, right?
	So you have an explanation for what's occurring in your life.
	There are other explanations for what is occurring in your life, right?
	Let me give you an example.
	I'll give you an example from my own life, right?
	Yeah, sure. When I was younger, I was in the art world.
	I studied acting and playwriting.
	I wrote like 30 plays.
	I wrote like five novels.
	I wrote hundreds of poems.
	Like, you name it, right? Right.
	Right. Now, I was told by a PhD English major who reviewed my book called The God of Atheists that I had written the great Canadian novel.
	It was the greatest thing he'd ever written.
	Red, you name it, right?
	And I thought, wow, that's great.
	I can't wait to become a writer, right?
	And it never happened. Now, part of me could say, well, there's some agenda.
	There's some harassment.
	People are calling these people saying, don't publish that Molyneux guy, whatever you do, right?
	Or I could say, well, I am not a leftist and the publishing world and the art world is overwhelmingly leftist.
	So there's no... Big covert harassment thing.
	There's just an opposition of values that I wasn't conscious of, right?
	There's two explanations, and there could be other explanations, right?
	And there could also be the explanation that my writing wasn't very good.
	That's possible, right?
	It's possible. I don't think it's true, but it's possible, right?
	Yes. So there's lots of hypotheses that I can come up with about why I didn't get published in the mainstream world, right?
	I mean, I even met a woman on a plane who turned out to be working at a publishing house, and she liked the first half of one of my novels, didn't like the second half, so I went and rented a cottage in England for three weeks and finished the damn novel.
	Had to write it by hand for some weird reason.
	I couldn't type at that point, or I couldn't be creative while typing.
	And it just never quite happened, right?
	So there's lots of explanations as to what might be happening to you.
	Correct. Now, if the goal of the organization was to what?
	Discredit you in the eyes of your wife to keep you from winning your custody battle, right?
	Then you understand that you're doing all the wrong stuff.
	You're doing all the wrong...
	Like you're absolutely playing into their hands if the goal is for this covert harassment to screw up your custody case and never give you custody.
	You're doing exactly...
	The wrong thing in dealing with it, which is another misreading of the situation.
	Because if people are trying to make you crazy, you know what you never do?
	Well, there's two things you never do.
	Number one, you don't call up the police and say, I'm hearing voices and being hit with energy weapons that can't be detected by any known science.
	Because they're just going to think...
	I can't disagree with them that you need professional help for mental issues, right?
	Now, the second thing you'd really not want to do is call in to a very popular philosophy show and talk all about these ideas of yours.
	Because that is going to broadcast to everyone and their dog that what most people are going to think is the same thing that the police thought, right?
	Which is that you're going to have some challenges correctly processing Sense data in the real world, right?
	Right. So, if your theory is correct, you're going about things entirely the wrong way, which is one indication that deep down you know this theory is not correct, and you're asking for help.
	You're begging for help that you don't know about.
	You're begging for help from the police, and you got it!
	Because when you were put into the institution, and you were put on medication, You were symptom-free for a week, right?
	No, you were.
	I'm not going to go back and go over this because I know we've got a bit of a moving goalpost situation here, right?
	I believe that we know everything we need to know about someone within the first few moments of meeting them.
	And I don't just believe that because I believe it.
	There's lots of studies to show that out.
	You can read a whole book by Malcolm Gladwell called Blink.
	I won't get into all of the data, but they can tell Which doctors are more likely to get sued for malpractice from five seconds of muffled voice?
	They can tell which teachers are more popular and successful and effective based on five seconds of muffled speech from that teacher.
	We have incredible processing abilities.
	And you knew, I bet you, within the first five minutes of listening to me, you thought, this guy can throw a rope down the well of where I am and he can pull me the hell out.
	Now, you're fighting me like crazy, and I understand that.
	That's perfectly valid and perfectly sensible from a certain kind of standpoint.
	But if you call me up and you say to me, Steph, I thought for sure you would agree with me.
	That knocks under the toilet and invisible energy weapons are real and I'm being hit with them all the time, you're not telling the truth either to yourself or to me.
	Because the fact is, Sanjay, you called me up for help.
	You did not call me up for confirmation.
	Because you are incorrect with regards to all of this stuff.
	I'm telling you frankly, I'm telling you openly, I'm telling you even though you know That I do not trust the police and I do not trust the state.
	And I am not a fan of contemporary diagnosis of mental illness.
	I'm not a fan of psychiatry.
	And I'm pretty damn skeptical these days, even of psychology.
	So I agree with you on a lot of things.
	I agree with you that the government does nasty stuff all over the world.
	I agree with you that there are harassment programs that the government goes on with you.
	I agree with you that the police are often corrupt.
	I agree with you that psychiatry is largely a scam.
	So there's so much that I agree with you on.
	That I'm not just opposing you on everything.
	And the reason I'm saying all of this, Sanjay, is because I really, really, really want you to have some time with your daughter that doesn't require somebody looking over your shoulder and making sure you're not telling her that daddy is being subject to covert harassment by state-sponded and state-funded terrorists.
	Because you cannot be telling that stuff to your daughter, you understand?
	You cannot be telling that stuff to your daughter because you have no proof.
	Maybe not today. Yes, absolutely.
	Not today, but say after two years.
	No! You cannot tell this.
	Oh my God, you can't tell.
	You're playing into their hands even if you believed all of this.
	This is exactly the wrong thing to say.
	No, of course.
	If you believed, like they're going to listen to this in your worldview, right?
	These covert harassers are going to listen to this.
	So you'd be saying, if you really believed in them, you'd be saying, oh no, I'm going to have this conversation with these covert harassers.
	Of course I'm going to say I'm never going to say it to my kid because she's too young and it's inappropriate, right?
	Your child is seven years old, six or seven years old, and you're saying you're going to tell her in two years when she's nine that daddy's being targeted by invisible energy weapons and there are knocks coming from under the toilet.
	Come on. You know she can't handle that and that's not appropriate to tell a child.
	No, I'm not putting a time frame on that.
	I'm not saying... No, no, I didn't say that.
	I'll be speaking at nine.
	But let's say in three years or four years.
	Okay, you can change the goalpost, dude.
	You can change the goalpost.
	But this is unhealthy. Right?
	You said two years. Now you're saying three or four years.
	Okay. So let's say she's 10 or 11 or 12.
	You cannot tell her that daddy's being targeted with invisible energy weapons that no one can see.
	You can't do that.
	Okay, I got... Because you have no proof.
	And that's unfair to her.
	Yes, yes, I agree.
	You understand? This is why you have supervised visits, my friend.
	Because you cannot tell her this stuff.
	And your urge to want to tell her this stuff is destructive to her, which is why you're not allowed to see her unsupervised.
	So they're winning.
	Even in your own worldview, they're winning because you're trying to tell her this stuff, which you have no proof for.
	Not that I'm trying to tell her.
	I have never actually ever tried to tell her anything.
	No, no, don't change the goalposts.
	I'm not talking about the past.
	Man, you are a slippery guy.
	Sanjay, the well-oiled debate partner.
	Okay, listen, Sanjay, let me ask you this.
	Sure. What happens emotionally?
	If this is not true, what happens to you emotionally If nobody really does care about you, if nobody really is following you, if you're not the center of somebody's big plot, what happens to you emotionally?
	Because I did notice, Sanjay, I couldn't help but notice that this stuff first emerged when you were alone, and I assume lonely.
	And it happens when you're alone, and I assume lonely.
	And when you went back to your wife and you weren't alone, and I assume lonely, it went away.
	And when you were in the psychiatric institution, when you weren't alone anymore, it went away.
	And it's constantly driving you to solitude because you've got to go move to new places.
	You've got to go sleep in your car alone in the middle of nowhere.
	It isolates you, right?
	So what happens if this is not true?
	Just entertain it for a moment, right?
	I can entertain the idea that I'm a terrible philosopher.
	What happens if I'm just very glib?
	What happens if I'm just a sophist?
	What happens if I'm just verbally acute but fundamentally dense?
	I can entertain all of those possibilities and I can play the devil's advocate position.
	So my question is Sanjay, What happens if you accept my case here, that you have no proof, you have no evidence, and it's incredibly destructive to your life, and it will destroy your life.
	You understand this? This will destroy your life.
	It will destroy your health. It's already destroyed your relationships.
	It destroyed your career. It's destroying your finances.
	So this will destroy your life.
	What if...
	It wasn't true.
	What would happen to you emotionally if you just tried that hat on for size?
	That it just wasn't true. You're not being targeted.
	It's all just accidental.
	Maybe it's hallucinatory. Maybe you need to get your ears checked.
	I don't know. But what if there is no energy weapons?
	What if there is no big group of people who are harassing you?
	What happens to you emotionally?
	Because it seems to me that if you're not being targeted by these people, who cares about you?
	No, it's not true. So, I think your conclusion was based on what we spoke about, which is, of course, a very, very small fraction of what has actually transpired.
	Yes, but I'm going to assume you give me the most convincing stuff, right?
	I'm not going to assume you give me...
	I assume that there's not way more convincing stuff.
	Otherwise, I just have to reach through the phone and slap you upside the head.
	Because if you have really convincing proof that you've kept from me for two and a half hours, that would be crazy.
	No, I don't have...
	A convincing proof in the way that you are...
	No, no. You have no convincing proof.
	End of sentence, my friend.
	You keep putting in these weasel words, well, according to my perspective, well, I have no proof according to your standards.
	Like, you have no proof. You have no proof.
	So let me ask you again, Sanjay, what happens to your emotions?
	What happens to your heart?
	What happens to your feelings if you even imagine this not being true and being free of this belief?
	What happens to my emotions if I am not free of this?
	If you are free of this belief, if I could snap my fingers and have you go, wow, that was a pretty crazy interlude in my life where I believed a lot of crazy stuff.
	That's terrible. I'm not being targeted.
	I'm not being harassed.
	There's no state-funded and state-funded agencies trying to make me woozy with electric death rays from space.
	I'm going to rebuild my life because this delusion almost took me down.
	No, it's not possible for me to think like that because although I don't have...
	It is possible.
	Sanjay, do not be helpless in the face of these beliefs.
	You are more than these beliefs.
	Why is it not possible for you to change your mind?
	I'm fighting a battle. Because it's not the truth.
	You have no proof.
	Don't tell me about the truth when you have no proof, my friend.
	I have no proof. I can show it to you, but I know the proof that I have experienced.
	So proof is my experience.
	There's no argument that says experience equals proof.
	I know. Hang on, Sanjay.
	You were in an institution, right?
	I visited my mother in said place.
	You know as well as I do that there are people in there who think that they're Napoleon, who think that they're Jesus, who think that they're the reincarnation of Buddha, who think that they're the reincarnation of whoever, right?
	Now those people have genuine experiences that they honestly believe are true.
	Are they true? Are they true?
	No, not all of us.
	Wait, are you saying that it's possible that some are the reincarnation of Napoleon?
	Well, because I'm not...
	No, Sajay, join me in the sunlit planes of certainty.
	They are not the reincarnation of Napoleon.
	Okay, they may be short, they may put their hands inside their jackets, they may have a really funny kind of comb forward, but they are not the reincarnation of Napoleon.
	Neither are they Jesus, neither are they Charles Manson come back to life from the dead, right?
	There are people who are very certain and completely wrong, right?
	People are still certain that communism wins.
	No, but Stephan, Stephan, the analogy is faulty.
	Analogy has a point. The fault is that if somebody says I'm reincarnation of Napoleon, that is not possible.
	But if somebody says that I am son of Stephan, that is possible.
	So you can't say that because somebody said that I'm reincarnation.
	No, but what you're saying, Sanjay, is also not possible.
	It's not possible. It's not possible.
	What is not possible? No, which thing are you talking about is not possible.
	You being subject to this kind of covert harassment is not possible.
	It is very much possible.
	No, no, no. You're accusing people of a crime.
	It's a very serious accusation.
	To accuse your society, your government, people around you, of a crime.
	So, what do they need?
	They need motive, they need means, they need opportunity.
	That is the crime that you're accusing them of.
	Which is why I've been asking you.
	Hang on, hang on. Let me finish.
	Then you can reply. Okay.
	Do they have motive? No, they do not.
	Do they have means? No, they do not.
	Because the technology that is required does not exist.
	No, it does. It does not exist.
	No, no, it does not exist.
	It does not exist.
	Now we are going into an area where we have to I have, you know, a real study of this.
	No, no, I'm not going into this while the governments may have stolen it from the belly of spaceships from Alpha Centauri.
	You're saying that you're being affected by an energy weapon that cannot be detected in any way, shape, or form, even though it's supposed to mess and scramble with your physiology, which means it has a particular wavelength.
	So you're incorrect about that.
	I did not say that it cannot be detected.
	Have you been able to detect it?
	I didn't say that.
	You said you've been unable to detect it.
	I said I have been unable.
	I did not say it cannot be detected.
	It's difficult to detect.
	It's difficult to pinpoint.
	No, no, no. It's not detectable.
	I didn't say it's not detectable.
	You were saying it's not detectable.
	It's not detectable because it has to hit a particular wavelength to affect your body.
	It's not detectable.
	So you're asking for something to affect your body, which is completely undetectable.
	You can't have it that way. It doesn't exist.
	It doesn't exist in reality.
	It's like saying, I want a sound without any wavelengths.
	I want light without any wavelengths or photons or anything like that.
	No, but Stefan, you're putting words in my mouth which I didn't say.
	I didn't say it is undetectable.
	It is undetectable.
	It takes multiple instruments.
	You are a smart guy who is technologically sophisticated.
	You are a computer programmer.
	You are unable to detect something which has a very specific wavelength, which you can buy something to detect it for $40 on eBay.
	Okay? It's undetectable, brother.
	No, but that $40 instrument...
	Magically, can't detect it.
	Only in certain... No, only in certain...
	See, energy is like that, Stepan.
	It has a wide... It has to be able to affect your body.
	You understand? So it can't be random wavelength.
	It has to be a wavelength of such that it affects your body, right?
	If it's too short, it passes through.
	If it's too long, I don't know. But anyway, you have no proof.
	Yes. You have no proof.
	And you're a smart guy who's been dealing with this off and on for 10 years.
	Now if I am looking in a fairly small section of beach for a treasure I say is buried one foot under for 10 years off and on I've been searching and I say well I haven't found it doesn't mean it's not there.
	It kind of does. Yeah actually that analogy is also not correct because say if you were trying to build a rocket ship you're also smart.
	I'm trying to build a what? You can't build it if you're trying to build a rocket ship and you're a smart person as well.
	And smarter than me.
	So if you're trying to build a rocket ship, you can spend your whole life and single-handedly you cannot build a rocket ship.
	It's not possible. It takes teams.
	It takes people with specialized skills to be able to build a rocket ship.
	It takes billions of dollars to build a rocket ship.
	Yes, but let's say that I try and build a rocket ship and don't get it right.
	I still have something detectable called a rocket ship.
	And even if you say there's all these teams, they still need to hit you with an energy weapon that affects your body, which means it's detectable in some manner.
	Yeah, but the thing with energy is that it starts with zero gigahertz and goes to hundreds of gigahertz.
	It goes from what?
	From 10 yards? It starts from zero hertz.
	The wavelength of energy starts from zero hertz and goes to hundreds of gigahertz.
	There's not one instrument which can measure Because energy is complicated.
	Energy has different manifestations.
	Energy is complicated. I don't feel like you're treating me like I'm smarter than you are.
	Energy has different manifestations.
	Sanjay, don't say it's true.
	Energy has different manifestations?
	My goodness, I'm shocked.
	It has because if you look at light.
	How much time and energy and money have you spent trying to detect these energy rays?
	Well, I'm always on my toes.
	I don't think on your toes is a scientific argument.
	No, I meant to say that I'm always trying to agree, so I will keep moving around all the time.
	No, no. Sanjay, the answer is you have not spent time, money, and energy trying to detect these rays.
	Why? Because you're terrified they're not there.
	It's the same reason you can get a tox screen from a doctor pretty easily.
	It's pretty cheap. You just have to ask for it.
	There's a reason why you didn't go to the doctor.
	There's a reason why you didn't go to the landlord.
	There's a reason why you didn't go to your neighbors.
	There's a reason why you did go to the police, right?
	It's very difficult for you emotionally if you're not the focus of all of this attention.
	If you're just a lonely guy who's been kicked out of his family and who barely gets to see his child and has been fired last week, you're just a lonely guy that no one's really paying attention to if you're not part of this whole State-sponsored, state-funded harassment campaign.
	You're just a lonely guy who's got no wife, who barely has a child, who has no friends, who has no job.
	You're alone. And I think rather than deal with the pain of being alone, you're making up a whole world where everyone's really focused on you and everyone's really interested in you, everyone really cares about you.
	And I've seen this before, Sanjay.
	I've seen this before.
	I'm telling you clearly, my friend.
	And I'm trying to help you here.
	I'm trying to save you.
	Because I've seen how this plays out.
	And it's horrible.
	You know what this is going to do to your life.
	No, I'm paying the price for it, so I know.
	So my mother...
	Hang on. My mother...
	There's a reason why I'm spending so much time on this call, right?
	Right. My mother...
	She believes that doctors poisoned her, and that's why she beat her kids, and that's why her life was terrible, and that's why she was unable to sustain a relationship.
	And she also believes that she was being targeted by unseen, unknown forces, probably from the insurance company, and a car passed by once, and it backfired, you know, right?
	So naturally, she thought, of course, that people were shooting at her.
	Some graffiti was written in a building across the way from the little apartment building she lives in.
	Some graffiti was sprayed and she thought it was a message of wanting to her to stay away from this topic that she was approaching.
	And there are a large number of...
	Innocuous events that she interpreted as a big conspiracy against her from a wide variety of people who were obsessed with her and focused on her and interested in her and what she did, when the reality was she had no real friends.
	Her children, well, I won't speak for others.
	I did not enjoy spending time with her and haven't seen her in close to 20 years now, I think.
	And she had no husband.
	She had no boyfriend.
	Nobody cared about her.
	And when we have that kind of void or that vacuum in her heart, like we're a social animal, Sanjay.
	You know that as well as I do.
	We need people around us.
	We want people around us.
	And you don't have people around you.
	You don't have people who care about you because if you had people who care about you, they would be having these conversations with you.
	And so this also isolates you from people because you start bringing this up with people and they take three steps backward.
	And they don't want to have anything to do with you because it's nuts.
	Hang on, I'll be done in a second.
	You can have all the time you want.
	So I'm telling you Straight up, man.
	This leads to a very terrible place in life.
	My mother, for as long as I've known her as an adult, she sleeps with a giant knife under her pillow because she's terrified that this conspiracy is going to take her down.
	So, it has been an e-day fix of hers for, let me just work on this now, over 35 years.
	She has been unable to budget.
	She has been unable to reason with it.
	She's been unable to push back against it, even though I tried and strove mightily to help her.
	Unsuccessfully, as I fear this will be the case with you.
	Because maybe you've indulged in this fantasy for so long that it's become such a necessary part of your being that I'm asking you to remove an arm or a leg or an eye to get rid of it.
	But I'm telling you, if there's any chance that 0.1% of doubts that you might have about what is going on in your life I'm trying to help you strengthen that 0.1% because you are very certain without proof and the cost of what you believe is so extraordinary that it is literally is destroying your life it is destroying your relationships it's destroying your capacity to be a father I agree with your wife as far as custody goes because if you have these delusions It is not,
	in my view, particularly healthy and maybe not even that safe for you to be around your daughter.
	I'm just telling you my amateur opinion, of course, here, right?
	So why would you love this belief more than you love your family?
	Why would you love this belief more than you love your job?
	Then you love your career.
	The answer, Sanjay, is because it makes you feel important.
	It makes you feel like people are focused on you.
	It gives you an imaginary tribe, even if that tribe is out to get you.
	And I'm saying, don't get sucked into this ghost world of imaginary tribes.
	Let it go. Find reason.
	Find evidence. Connect with people.
	and view this as a terrible passage in your life that you're stronger having put behind you?
	No, because it is a truth.
	Thank you.
	It is the truth.
	All right. Well, I gave it a shot.
	I gave it a shot. I gave it a shot.
	I did not have much hope that you were going to see reason in this.
	So it's not the truth.
	It's not the truth. It's not the truth.
	But you want it to be the truth because the alternative is too painful and so you're trapped.
	This belief is what's circling you and attacking you, not objective people and shadowy government conspiracies.
	No, not really. So whenever, for example, I went to India.
	That's kind of binary. All right, well, Sanjay, I gave it a good shot.
	I certainly wish you the best, although I do not think you will achieve anything positive with this.
	I gave it a shot, and I knew that there was very little chance of being able to budge on this.
	But I will say that I hope it's helpful for other people in the earlier stages of these kinds of beliefs to just let go of these fears and connect with people.
	Because the one thing I've seen in my research...
	On the covert harassment stuff and the gang stalking stuff is people are extraordinarily lonely.
	And then the only way they can find a target, unfortunately, the only way they can find a connection is with other people who share this belief and thus it reinforces and it feeds on itself.
	And the only community they have is other people who share this delusion, which means that their community leads them to be more isolated.
	And this is why it becomes so hard to solve.
	But I'm going to do one more caller tonight, but I do appreciate the call.
	Thank you so much. Okay, thanks.
	Alright, well up next we have Bob.
	Bob wrote in and said, Why is it reasonable to fight for a home here in the United States while vilifying the South African's cause?
	I completely understand the arguments of whites making South Africa objectively better on socioeconomic metrics, but that's their home.
	Some argue that the South African whites have also established a home there.
	There is a real problem in this thinking.
	I understand their culture has problems and an undesirable state in our eyes, but that's their home.
	That's actually their only home on the planet.
	We can't say one moment that a Mexican child who came here at a severely young age who only knows America as their home does not actually have a claim here, while also saying that whites in South Africa only know South Africa as their home.
	That's from Bob.
	Hello, hello.
	Bob, I've missed you. I can't even tell you.
	I have been pining for the Bob-ness.
	I'm sorry. I'm going to have to interrupt with two things.
	What happened to your microphone?
	It used to be so good.
	It's like you were whispering sweet nothings into my ear.
	Now it sounds like you're trapped with one arm pinned under a boulder in a canyon.
	Wait, wait, wait. One, two, three.
	How's that? It's still pretty bad, but we'll survive.
	Okay, so two things.
	I'm sorry, I'll have to interrupt.
	One, my wife is maybe one or two weeks away from having our first child, and I am obsessed with peaceful parenting.
	Hey, congratulations to you both, Bob.
	Congratulations. That's wonderful.
	I want to thank you for that.
	I have drunk the Kool-Aid, or not drunk the Kool-Aid, I've maybe thrown up the other Kool-Aid.
	You sound ambivalent already.
	And the next thing, this is really quick.
	You won me over at the end of that last call.
	That was a very good attempt.
	Very valiant effort.
	Yeah, because people say, well, why are you talking to this person?
	I'm not talking to this person.
	I'm playing for mankind here.
	Bob Marley style. You know, I'm talking to lots of people.
	There are some people earlier on that journey who have a chance to turn.
	I don't think he does, but I appreciate that.
	Thanks. Okay, so about South Africa.
	Well, let's Let's start with you.
	You've heard the contention, I might say.
	While also saying that whites in South Africa, who only know South Africa as their home, right?
	I mean, that's incredible, right?
	Because that's the whole argument behind the dreamers.
	They say, well, they came here when they were three or four or five.
	This is the only home they know, and they can't go back.
	And it's like, but the whites in South Africa were there before almost all the blacks, except for the Khoi or the Sand people and so on, who have unfortunately been so brutalized and marginalized by the blacks who came down from the north, in particular the Bantu and the Oh, the Zulus that, yeah, I mean, and the land was taken through trade.
	It was taken through sometimes the right of conquest, which was recognized by all the African tribes in the region.
	And it has been massively infused with labor and technology to the point where each farm in South Africa feeds like 3000 people, which you couldn't get prior to that, of course.
	So it is a brutal thing.
	When people say, well, why don't they just leave?
	Well, then a lot of the families have been in South Africa longer than America's even been a country.
	Wait, so I'm a tiny bit confused.
	When you say they just leave, you said the...
	Oh, sorry. What I meant was people say, well, why don't the whites in South Africa just leave?
	And the fact is that they've been there longer than America's been a country, right?
	Some of these Boers, right?
	Some of the Dutch settlers and the other settlers as well.
	So it is as much their country as anyone else's.
	But of course, the story in South Africa, as it was in Zimbabwe and as it was in other places, is that the whites stole the land from the blacks.
	The whites are colonialists and usurpers, and the whites should just go back To Europe, because you see, Europe supposedly is the land of the whites.
	The whites should go back to Europe and should not be in Africa, which should only have black people in it.
	And of course, that's not considered racist.
	But if you try to say anything like that about Europe or anything like that, people will just go insane, right?
	Okay, so, okay, you actually make a good point.
	However, you have two competing groups in one geographic area.
	Which of the two groups? Well, just for the sake of this argument, you have the Boers, the original Dutch settlers, or the descendants of the Dutch settlers, and then you have the actual Africans.
	And you have these two competing groups, and there is, it's pretty clear, I feel very crude saying this, but one, it is simply the only home for one group While the other group does actually have another home available to them.
	You mean the Boers can go back to Europe?
	Yes. Okay, so let's break that down.
	So why are they competing groups?
	Why can't they all just get along?
	Why can't they just, the Boers have their land?
	And it's not, see, the blacks don't want the land of the Boers.
	That's very clear. Because the government for many decades has had a whole program, which says, if you can show that somehow the land was unjustly acquired, even if it was the right of conquest, you can get the land back.
	And the vast majority of the blacks, they say, well, you can have the land back or you can just get some money.
	And the vast majority of blacks, like 95% of the blacks who go through that process, just want the money.
	They don't want the land.
	So the idea that there's some big competition, like, why?
	The blacks like to live in the cities and they don't like to farm in particular.
	And the Boers are excellent farmers.
	So why could there not just be coexistence?
	Aha! I was hoping you'd ask this question.
	And the answer...
	Okay, so let me go back a little.
	We have two conflicting ideas.
	Both you and me, both you and I, we have the idea that culture can replace race, as far as a group of people are concerned.
	But we also, both you and I, recognize the importance of race and how tribal most people are.
	And when I say most, I mean a vast majority of the people.
	So this idea of coexisting, I don't think it's, I mean, I did a cursory reading of all the laws, of the apartheid laws.
	You know, the laws were pretty, were not nice.
	They were not nice and they disenfranchised different groups there.
	This idea of getting along There was no attempt, very much like the one in the United States, to create equal rights and opportunity for everyone.
	Hello? Yeah, no, I'm listening.
	I'm listening. Okay.
	Okay, so that is why this idea of them...
	And the reason that we can't get along is because I think And this is going to be a very controversial idea.
	Wait, Bob, we never allow controversial ideas on this show.
	It's not possible.
	No, go ahead. I think that the whites, that European-based people want it both ways.
	They want to have the cheap labor and they want to...
	At the same time, they want to, quote unquote, get along with the people and create a single society.
	And that creates problems.
	That creates huge problems that you see in the United States and that you see in South Africa.
	Do you understand how I'm saying that's related to this?
	I do, but, you know, let's deal with the elephant in the room, right?
	So the IQ issue in South Africa is pretty clear.
	That the average black in sub-Saharan Africa has an average IQ of 70, or low 70s, right?
	And that's the bottom two or three percent of the white population.
	So one of the problems, of course, that happened, so as opposed to Second World War period, the numbers of blacks and the numbers of whites in South Africa were more or less equal.
	And now there are eight times more Blacks than whites.
	And the reason for that is white technology, it's science, it's medicine, it's food production, it's sanitation, like all of the stuff that comes from the higher IQ population.
	That's one of the reasons why the vote was not extended to blacks at the time, because the concern was saying, look, I mean, the IQ studies have been known for a long time in South Africa.
	So, yeah, there was some concern about, well, first of all, once communism took root within the black community, which it did very deeply and very powerfully in the post-war period, and I understand that to some degree, of course, because the communists were saying, well, you're not being treated equally, and we're going to fight for your rights, and I understand all of that.
	But once communism took root, communism teaches such class hatred, and because of the IQ division between the blacks and the whites in South Africa, The richer class, so to speak, was generally whites, and the poorer class was generally blacks.
	And again, I think IQ, there's some culture, whether it's genetic or environmental, is not particularly important.
	That was the reality, and it hasn't budged much in the intervening time.
	So once the Marxists come along, they say, There's no such thing as IQ differences.
	The only difference between rich and poor, between whites and blacks, comes about because of exploitation.
	Because you brought a little bit, I'm not saying you're a communist, but you brought up some of this like cheap labor and stuff like that.
	Capitalists don't want cheap labor at all.
	Capitalists want profitable labor.
	There's a very, very big difference, right?
	So if you say, well, capitalists just want cheap labor, well, you can get an actor for free to star in your movie, but instead they pay Julia Roberts $20 million.
	Why? I mean, they could get labor much more cheaply, but Julia Roberts is a good, or Denzel Washington, if you like, is a very good investment because people will come and see the movie just because they're in it, right?
	Because there's kind of a quality factor involved in their movies.
	So in South Africa, Because the communists came in and said to the blacks, the only reason why you're poor and the whites are rich is the whites stole all your stuff and stole your land and stole your culture and stole your history and stole your children and did all these terrible things.
	Well, that's a powder keg.
	And once the communists get in with that story, they generate such unbelievable hatred against whites on the part of blacks that for whites to then give equal rights to blacks who vastly outnumber them is to sign their own death warrant.
	Okay. Sorry that was so much in there.
	No, no, no. I need a moment to consider that and I'll do that.
	Yeah, no, take your time, man. This is complicated stuff, for sure.
	Wait, I sound like the last caller.
	It's complicated. So, you just answered your previous question.
	You said, why can't they coexist?
	And then, later, you explained the massive Ability gap between these two groups.
	That doesn't mean they can't coexist.
	But it kind of does.
	Well, only if there are communists in there saying there is no ability gap, it's all exploitation.
	Well, okay, but now you're suggesting that people of 70 IQ can understand an ability gap.
	Oh, well, yeah, that's a point.
	I don't know because I haven't really worked with many people who have an IQ in the 70s, so I don't really know what they can and can't understand.
	But I think they can understand the results of, say, an IQ test that just give everyone an IQ test that's fair and administered objectively and is not culturally specific as they aren't these days.
	And then at least there's some explanation.
	And you can say to the people with the IQ of the 70s, look, you're not any sadder.
	It's not like they're happier.
	Because that's so terrible that there's no big difference in happiness between high and low IQ. And so saying, look, okay, they have more stuff.
	They also have more worries. It doesn't mean that they're happier.
	You can still have a wonderful life.
	You can have a great life. You can have community.
	You can have family. You can have song and dance and all kinds of wonderful stuff.
	You can have your own culture and great stuff can happen in your life, but you're not going to be an engineer, right?
	Any more than I'm going to be a pro ball player, right?
	Like, I mean, basketball in particular, right?
	So I think if things are explained in a way that makes sense, You know, like when people look at the prevalence of blacks in America in the NBA, I don't think anyone says, boy, there's a huge amount of anti-white racism on the part of NBA owners.
	It's like, no, they're just really good at it.
	Let me say this.
	So your idea about communists stirring the pot, that's basic.
	I don't think I said capitalists want cheap labor.
	I said I was particularly talking about lefties.
	And a lot of Republicans who are Republican in name only.
	Oh, right. So like the immigration thing.
	And I agree with that, actually.
	The immigration idea that the reason why they like illegal immigrants pouring in is it drives down wages.
	Yeah. But when we go back to that 70 IQ thing, I'd like for you to think for a moment about who is actually capable of having this conversation with you.
	Who's capable of having the conversation that IQ and race are linked?
	It's like you and Sam Harris.
	I don't mean that.
	The rest of that song, for those who don't know, is Steph and Sam Harris sitting in a tree.
	K-I-S-S-I-N-G. No, T-A-L-K-I-N-G about IQ. Okay, but look, there are There are brilliant blacks all over the world, right?
	No question, right?
	I mean, even in America, right, you got an average IQ in the black community of 85 or so, but 20% of blacks are smarter than the average white in America.
	There's millions of brilliant blacks in America, right?
	So it's not like you're saying...
	And in Africa, There are blacks who are very, very smart.
	Even in sub-Saharan Africa, you know, it's not as many, but they're...
	So, here's the thing.
	Given that you're not just talking to a population with an...
	Like the average IQ is in the low 70s.
	That means that there's lots of smarter blacks.
	So the smarter blacks can also explain and sort of it goes to me down the IQ ladder, so to speak.
	And this is true of all groups, right?
	The smarter groups teach the less smart groups teach the less smart groups and it kind of trickles down.
	So I do think there's a way to get all of this across.
	I'm not saying it's going to be the easiest thing, but if the blacks in sub-Saharan Africa, and don't get me wrong, there's lots of white communists down there too, but if the blacks in sub-Saharan Africa can go with communism, why can they not also go with ability differences?
	It's not like communism is this totally simple idea.
	Okay, there.
	I'm glad you said it like that.
	Because what is the particular difference between that IQ gap?
	I think the number is in the mid-80s, where under that you have an extraordinary problem delaying gratification.
	And so now what are you offering to this person with a 70 IQ? I mean, 70 is extraordinarily low.
	You're offering them now.
	You on your side are offering them this answer.
	Life is tough.
	You can still be happy.
	And on the other side, and work harder.
	And things will likely get better over time.
	And the other answer is the precise opposite of that gratification curve.
	It's no. Someone has taken it from you, so we will need to band together and take it back from them.
	But isn't that, you know, and it just, by the by, Bob, I just think that's so horrible.
	Not what you're saying, but just this whole, well, here's a group of people The IQs on average are in the low 70s, so I'm going to Gin them up, make them extremely angry, extremely hateful of whites or of groups with higher abilities, even within their own community, right?
	I mean, you know as well as I do that, and I think we talked about this before, that the blacks of high ability, even in the States, are often referred to, you know, as the Oreos and, you know, like the teacher's pets and, you know, like they're somehow not black because they're succeeding and doing well, and I think we've talked about all of that before.
	But what a terrible thing to do to take this group and just gin them up with hatred and resentment and then get them to attack the very people who have given them the food that keeps them alive.
	I mean, what a viciously cruel thing to do to this group of people.
	But this group of people...
	Okay, let's be really clear.
	This group of people were not totally benevolent, right?
	The whites in South Africa created laws They created the Marriage Exclusion Act in the mid-20th century.
	They created no immoral or undecent acts across racial lines.
	It wasn't really the same as what we have here.
	So what I'm trying to suggest is that it might be substantially easier to gin up the kind of hysteria about which you're speaking.
	The hysteria is offering the child's candy over spinach.
	It's saying, look, screw that.
	Your IQ is just the same.
	You've been robbed. Let's go rob them back right now.
	Or, sorry.
	You see how that guy was born tall and you were born short?
	That guy was born smarter and you were born dumb.
	And so I think when you say, why can't they coexist?
	If you... I don't know.
	I guess you'd have an extraordinarily difficult time eradicating leftism from the world, and good luck with that.
	No, I'm almost done.
	Haven't you noticed? Just a few last pockets of resistance to mop up, I think.
	Yeah, it's called basically the entire United—well, every large city in the United States.
	Isn't it weird how, according to the narrative, Brett Kavanaugh only ever raped Democrat women?
	Isn't that weird? You know, 50-50, you know?
	But it never seems to happen.
	Anyway, the coexistence stuff...
	Okay, listen, I'm not here to defend apartheid, obviously.
	I'm certainly not here to defend everything that the whites ever did in South Africa.
	No question, no doubt.
	I mean, there was nasty stuff involved for sure, and wrong and immoral and evil stuff involved.
	So the question then becomes, How does it play out?
	Well, we know how this plays out because we've seen it play out in Zimbabwe.
	We know how this plays out.
	The way it plays out is the whites either get killed or they get driven out.
	And then the rule of law collapses, international investment collapses, businesses collapse, and starvation sets in.
	This is very clear.
	You get hyperinflation.
	And then what happens is a bunch of often white Western singers go warbling their way across the internet begging for food, which is really putting a Band-Aid on a sucking chest wound of Cultural disintegration.
	And so I don't want that to happen.
	You know, I really don't.
	I mean, this is terrible.
	This is going to sound pretty shitty.
	That's their culture.
	That's their home.
	That's their culture. I'm not sure what that means.
	I mean, I know what the words mean.
	I'm just not sure where that flows.
	Their culture is corruption and concentration of power.
	To be fair, that's basically the culture of every country on the planet with the exception of a few European countries.
	Most of Western Europe, I guess, I would say.
	Well, no, here's an interesting thing too.
	Sorry, and I forgot because I also wanted to mention this about the deferral of gratification stuff.
	So yeah, I think it's true that the less intelligence you have, the harder it is to defer gratification, no question.
	However, I think that's why we need a more free society because, for instance, the blacks in America, as I've mentioned before, had a stronger family unit than even the whites in the 20s and the 30s.
	And so what happened?
	Well, the welfare state came in and you name it, right?
	Communism came in and all that.
	I think that the less smart you are, the more you need immediate feedback on the consequences of deferring gratification.
	And I think in certainly the black community had a lot stronger families and a lot stronger work ethic and a lot stronger educational ethic that was doing the black communities in America enormous good up until the welfare state.
	I mean the number of blacks as you know coming out of the poverty and into the middle class in the 50s was unprecedented in all of human history and I would just love to have seen where that could have gone in history.
	But I think that people who are less smart can make good decisions regarding the deferral of gratification.
	They just don't make them at a very abstract way, right?
	They make them at a more immediate way.
	And the welfare state, by pushing negative consequences off to economic collapse, semi-infinity, it fogs up the signals too much to the point where people can make generations of terrible decisions before the consequences hit home.
	I agree. I'd like to say something odd.
	What I find strange is that this seems to be happening certainly in Australia.
	It's happening in the United States.
	Wait, what's happening? Oh, I'm sorry.
	I said it before I explained what it is.
	It being the whites are looking around and going, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second.
	Our culture is changing extraordinarily fast.
	And there are simply...
	Three options that are happening here.
	Three options that are chosen by the leaders.
	The prevailing zeitgeist is, oh, it's all fine.
	All cultures are the same.
	They're all equal. We love diversity.
	Okay, we're not going to address that one.
	That one's complete and utterly ridiculous.
	The second one is, we will convert them.
	We will convince them That this culture is the way they want to live.
	Now, let me give you a little quick story here.
	I was at a congressman candidate's dinner party, and it was super Republican.
	Everybody there was old and white except me and my cousin.
	Super Republican. I get a very cuck cape vibe, but okay.
	And the guy said, you know, he said, we can't deport 10, 20 million people.
	We can't do that.
	And then, later, I said, I raised my hand and I said, the most extreme right, including me, say deport every single one.
	Everybody who's here illegally.
	The extreme left says make them all citizens.
	But the middle, and this is really important, the middle says, the middle where we're fought, where we're stuck in this gridlock, the middle is, we'll just keep battling it out.
	But if you look at the birth rates, if you actually look at the birth rates, the middle is the left winning.
	Yeah. And so the Republicans, the non-Trumpian Republicans, are saying...
	We believe that every...
	Latino has to vote Democrat.
	And, you know, I was around a bunch of decent people, so I didn't laugh aloud.
	And that's really what we are.
	That's our other...
	Sorry, you just cut out there for a sec, Bob.
	You were saying that the Republicans were saying that we just have to convince more Latinos to vote Democrat?
	Yeah. To vote Republican, you mean?
	Yes, of course. Right.
	And I think that it's enough to convince them to stop flying their flag here and burn our flag.
	Well, this is the other thing, too.
	Again, not to beat the IQ drum, but any time it doesn't show up in these particular conversations is important to note that you've got Hispanics who've got average IQs in the mid to high 80s.
	And if there's a welfare state, they're going to do better voting for free stuff than they are often going to work.
	Because, as you know, when you start to get around to the mid-80s, it's really, really hard to To find productive jobs for people in a modern economy.
	Yes. The jobs that haven't been automated.
	Like, I don't have any big magic solution other than it would be great if we hadn't had a welfare state with all the dysgenics involved with that.
	But the reality is, if you don't talk about the IQ stuff, then you can wave this magic wand and saying, well, yeah, we will get A population with an average IQ in the mid to height 80s to really understand the entire history of economic freedom and independence and worker productivity lines and, you know, like, it's like, no, in general, they're going to do much better off financially just by voting for free stuff and that puts them squarely in the camp of the left.
	And that's not going to change magically, because you have a good argument.
	Yes, yes, of course.
	So what did they say when you put your hand up and said, hey, whiteys?
	So, well, my cousin actually doubled down on my argument, but I would like to, so we had those three choices.
	Let's go through them really quick again.
	The left says all cultures are the same.
	Let everybody in. It doesn't matter.
	All cultures are equal. Well, unless any white South Africans want to come in.
	Yeah, yeah, of course.
	Well, that's another...
	Or even the Hispanics from Cuba who hate communism.
	So, yeah, yeah.
	Welcome, those guys. They hate communism.
	They hate socialism. But the middle argument, which is the rhino argument of, you know what?
	We can keep them here. We can convince them.
	I think that's bullshit.
	And the last one is the ultra-nationalist argument, which says, if you're going to be here, you will be American, period.
	Or you leave. And I think that one is the only workable solution.
	And honestly, I think it's the only workable solution in South Africa for the whites or the blacks.
	All right. Well, hang on.
	Just before we get into that, there is another one.
	There is another one. Okay. So the other one is something like this, and this is not entirely fleshed out, and I'll keep it brief, Bob.
	But it goes sort of something like this.
	So you try and convert as many people from being dependent on the government to being productive employees in a largely free market environment.
	And that way, they become interested in lowering taxes.
	They become somewhat less accepting of the welfare state mentality because They are now paying for the welfare state rather than benefiting from the welfare state.
	So there's that aspect.
	You do put in things like e-verify and you do try and make sure, of course, that illegals don't have access to everything under the sun from healthcare to education to you name it, right?
	Or voting even these days.
	And then what happens is there is, and we've seen this happen before with the economic crash of 07, 08, there's what's called self-deportation, which you know all about, which is where it becomes tougher and tougher to get a job in America.
	You're not rounding people up, but they're just saying, okay, well, it's too tough to make a go of it here.
	We can easily go and make a go of it in Mexico, and then they go and they're productive in Mexico rather than Staying in America.
	So there are other ways that you can do it other than deportation or the rollover.
	I strongly...
	Okay, so that's basically the second one I said.
	But, you know, said more eloquently, I still think it's a pipe dream.
	And I still think that we'll be speaking Spanish as a first language before that day will come.
	Plus nine for English.
	Yeah, exactly. So, well, anyway, this is basically...
	How do you, sorry, just how do you then enforce the values?
	How do you say you got to become American or you go?
	Like, how does that look on the ground?
	Okay, so, well, you're not going to...
	Well, first of all...
	Just be frank, man. Just, you know...
	I have to do the things...
	The first thing I have to do is the things you just said.
	So that's step one.
	Make it not a free ride.
	And that's actually, it's not really cheating, taking your answer, because that's part of our values.
	I mean, being an American is not being, I mean, I don't know if you know about Dean Alphonge's American Creed, but being subsistence, having subsistence by the government is not, that is not being American.
	That is the opposite of what being an American is.
	Right. And so that is step one.
	Basically everything you said.
	And step two, and I don't know how this can be done, but we need more nationalism.
	I don't know how we can balance that with freedom of speech.
	But we need people who actually love our country.
	Well, for that, though, you have to uproot the leftists from the universities, and that means no longer guaranteeing student loans and cutting university budgets peacefully and through the free market hugely.
	Because right now, universities are just massive, swollen, brain-deadening indoctrination centers run by leftists because the government keeps guaranteeing everyone's loans.
	And so if you get rid of that, or at least give students the ability to discharge student loans Like everyone else can through bankruptcy and that will help a lot.
	But the idea, I mean, that's a long cultural battle, but the way to start is to really hit the universities and get them to actually face the free market by stopping all of these ridiculous subsidies.
	I actually, yeah. Okay, so you and I are in, I guess we're not in terrible disagreement at all, actually.
	I just think that, I think your way is untenable currently.
	In this current political climate, it's enough to get the government to stop making us pay for abortion.
	Yeah, right. What is it? Planned Parenthood is spending $30 million on the midterms.
	It's like, why are they getting subsidies at all if they got $30 million to blow on the midterms?
	Anyway. That's because we're paying for all the abortions.
	Oh, yeah, right. The eradication of Americans while non-Americans are pumping out all the children.
	And blacks in particular, right?
	Absolutely. I mean, the highest abortion rates held by the black community?
	I think Candace Owens was saying to me, like, 50%, 60%, I think it was, of black kids aborted in the world.
	In some of the large cities, yeah.
	It's extraordinary. Okay, so, but I'd like to wrap up by saying this.
	Since that middle way can't work, the longer that middle, that second root of doubling down on our values, changing at least our political culture, the longer that takes, then the fourth answer will happen.
	And that fourth answer is what white people do every few decades, which is— Oh no!
	No, no! Do not poke that blonde beast!
	Whatever you do, man.
	That's what's going to happen.
	Okay, so just spell it out for people.
	What do white people do every couple of decades?
	Other than go from being nice to not so nice, but how do you see that playing out?
	Well, every couple of decades after they've invited other cultures into Germany and Greece and Italy or whatever, and they say explicitly when the people come in, they say, hey, hey, This place is sweet.
	I know you want to be here.
	It's nice. We can enjoy it together.
	Just be like us.
	Act like us.
	And then eventually after, you know, there's a mosque on every other corner, eventually the whites look around and say, okay, it's time.
	Right. And then they do what they did in...
	Bosnia-Herzegovina and Germany.
	And while it started in Greece, it never got to a big level.
	But that's what white people do every once in a while.
	Well, I think it's fair to say that that's what every group does when they feel like they're being overrun.
	Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
	But whites are particular because whites are so racist that they let everybody into their countries.
	So whites are particularly do this...
	It's different when whites do.
	I can't believe, Bob, that you of all people would be so insensitive to the black experience to say that America is a white country.
	It's a biracial country.
	Well, okay, so yes it is, but it's a European foundation.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my wife is actually going to test to be a citizen tomorrow morning.
	Your wife from Eastern Europe, if I remember rightly.
	From Eastern Europe. Her mother is here.
	She speaks about three words of English.
	And so, my cousin and I... Hands off daughter!
	Sorry. We all acted out the different amendments of the Constitution.
	Nice. And she translated to her.
	And so, what I'm trying to say is...
	Oh, let me get back.
	Oh, we were talking about the sort of biracial nature of America, at least for 400 years or so.
	The Constitution is a particular document, and I, I guess, re-fell in love with it, you know, within the last week.
	It constantly references the powers granted to the people, constantly, over and over.
	That is something that came from Europe.
	There's just no way around that.
	That is something that originated in the Enlightenment, and it came and it got codified here with the most pioneering people on the planet.
	And so, yes, as far as ownership of the country goes, certainly it's a biracial country.
	But as far as culturally, it's based on European roots.
	I'm absolutely not going to disagree with you with that at all, and I appreciate the correction.
	Now, so tell me the plan for deportation, right?
	Because, I mean, that's something that you mentioned.
	And tell me how that shakes out.
	I mean, you know, there is that cliche, you know, it's door to door, you're kicking things in, you're checking paperwork, you're throwing people on buses.
	I mean, how do you see that playing out?
	Well, so I don't think it will happen.
	I honestly think that the fourth choice is what's going to eventually have to happen.
	And I'm afraid. I'm deathly afraid of that fourth choice.
	But the only plan for deportation that I think could ever work is to actually make it law that any illegal found, all of their property is seized and liquidated and used to send them back to their country.
	I think that will create a lot of self-deportations.
	What about the complications of things like anchor babies with American citizens and all this kind of stuff?
	We talked about this before.
	I don't believe at all that the 14th Amendment, which was created for slaves, has anything to do with Guadalupe jumping over a line and having...
	Well, I would certainly agree with that.
	It's kind of preying upon the evils of slavery to use that to harvest Democrat voters from people who have border jumpers.
	But, well, I don't know.
	I mean, would you just reverse that?
	I mean, that's, I don't know.
	It's tricky, right? Well, okay.
	Yeah. So now you're talking about the practicality and you're damn right about that.
	The practicality of that is a nightmare.
	However, the 14th Amendment reads, I think verbatim, All persons born in the United States and in the state they reside and under the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States.
	That under this jurisdiction thereof is really, really, really particular and most people don't really recognize that because if you read the Article 2, Section 3 of the Mexican Constitution, those people are actually born under the jurisdiction of Mexico.
	Oh, right, because they're not citizens of the U.S., but rather are citizens of Mexico.
	Yeah, because the Mexican Constitution says clearly that children of Mexican citizens are Mexican.
	So they are born under their own jurisdiction, not under our jurisdiction.
	Do you think that the U.S. will maintain its integrity as a country through this process?
	In other words, do you think that there could be a breakup?
	That's a very good question.
	And this is why I constantly have this conversation now.
	Because the longer we wait, the worse it is.
	That's just the way it is.
	The longer we wait, the more.
	Because I'm having my first child as an old man.
	Wait, how old are you?
	I am 40 years old, Mr.
	Molly. I don't ever tell people my age, but...
	40. Yeah, okay.
	So you're not the spryest father on the block.
	I'm trying to think, how old was I? I guess I was...
	Yeah, I was in my early 40s.
	I actually am the spryest on the block because I live in a wealthy neighborhood, and they're all...
	Oh, so you have all these Anthony Quinn dads.
	Yes, yes, exactly.
	But... But if you look in the Mexican or the Muslim neighborhoods, oh my goodness.
	Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I get it.
	I get it. No, just, you know, stay spry.
	I remember you saying that you exercise a lot and stay fit.
	So, I mean, that's all you really got to do and you'll be all right.
	Yeah, I think I'm okay with that.
	But anyway, but back to the core of the conversation is really, it is, and as you said, and I love how you started that speech.
	I watched you start a speech. The West is the best.
	But we have to protect it.
	We have to actually, because the West is going away.
	And so, all of this to say is, if we really believe the West is the best, we have to fight harder to protect it, because it is changing.
	It is changing, and the people in power are saying, no, the West isn't the best.
	We're all equal. Even though Donald Trump is still the president.
	Well, the other thing, too, is the world doesn't agree.
	Because if we say we're all equal, then why isn't there an equal travel or movement of peoples from various countries and cultures to each other?
	You know, I'm pretty sure that there are more Somalians coming to Minnesota than there are Minnesotans going to Somalia.
	You are one of, if not the loudest voice that I've seen that says the West is the best.
	We have to protect this.
	We have to keep this going.
	And I... I'm going to keep repeating it.
	We have to try much, much harder than what we're doing.
	We're fighting a battle where our middle position with the enemy is them winning.
	All wars of attrition end in defeat.
	There's no question of that.
	I don't want to save the West as it is.
	The West is the best, but it's all the stuff we inherited from the past.
	The stuff that's around now, It's largely crap.
	It's largely garbage.
	It's largely, you know, relativism and leftism and proto-communism and post-modernism and it's all, I don't know, just garbage.
	And it's the garbage that's cluttering up the clean pipes of history.
	So I don't want to go back to the past because that's not the Western way.
	The Western way is to have the creative destruction of constant reinvention.
	Yes, yes.
	And the only, well, the only way to do that is Revolution or escape?
	And there's nowhere to escape, except a space station or something?
	Yeah, it's not gonna happen. I mean, this idea, we're all gonna get to Mars.
	Yeah, good luck with that. It's not a very friendly thing.
	And you know, I mean, after communism turns Earth into the red planet, I'm not sure it's gonna stop on the actual red planet either.
	So listen, just on a personal level, man, when's your baby due?
	Was it next week, did you say?
	Within the next week or two.
	So how are you feeling about that?
	That's a big thing.
	I'm very scared.
	We spent a week.
	You'll like this, being a programmer.
	We spent a week doing data aggregation to find the best name.
	And so what I did was I used...
	Is it Mohammed? No, not the most popular name in the world.
	Oh, right. Sorry. Sorry.
	The most future successful name.
	I downloaded different spreadsheets of salaries and names and they're pretty clear winners of who makes the most money, how many letters to have in your name, things like that.
	So we're down to two or three names.
	Boy, girl, do you know?
	That's a girl. Well, get ready for some severe affection, as you know, if you're home with your kid a lot, I mean, the daddy's girl phenomena is very real, and it's a beautiful thing.
	It really is a beautiful thing.
	So I'm sure you'll be drinking deep of the cup of daughter love, which is a wonderful thing to experience.
	Well, okay, great. Well, I hope to talk to you again.
	We'll see where that goes over the next decades.
	But that is a fight which will come to a head.
	And let me know. Drop me a note next week.
	Let me know what happens with the birth and all that.
	Let me know how it goes. And my very, very best to your wife and to you, of course.
	It's always a great pleasure to chat.
	So, yeah, just stay in touch, right?
	Wonderful. All right.
	Thanks, man. Thanks, everyone, so much for listening and for watching this most gripping of shows.
	Boy, do we ever travel sideways through some topics.
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