4156 Tornado of Vaginal Destruction - Call In Show - August 1st, 2018
Question 1: [1:22] – “I have been with my ‘husband’ for a little over 8 years. He had property before we met and brought me in to develop and build a house. He owns everything, paid cash as we went. My name isn't on anything and we are not married even though I changed my last name. I am now the only income earner. He refuses to marry me because I don't have the same interests he does and has made this imaginary mark I must achieve before he feels safe to take the leap. What he wants is for me to go back into an infatuation state and treat him like I can't get enough sex from him. He has always wanted other women and we have had threesomes, I like girls too but not as much as he does. This began most of the issues. How do I reconcile the inadequacy he makes me feel to fulfill his wishes?”Question 2: [1:56:41] – “What are the parameters of an appropriate and/or healthy relationship between employer and employee? I've recently experienced a traumatic event--a fire in the workplace. I was the only one working at this time, so none of my coworkers were around to experience what I experienced. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure my coworkers and my boss could imagine the emotional roller-coaster of dealing with the fire itself, and the guilt that comes with nearly destroying an entire building. I believe that the other employees, my boss included, have the capacity to feel and exhibit empathy. However, they did not exhibit empathy. Although I've gotten plenty of moral support from family and friends (for which I'm very grateful), I'm appalled at the complete and utter lack of empathy exhibited by my boss and coworkers. Should I be appalled? Should I have expected empathy, or the behavior thereof, in the first place?”Question 3: [2:45:51] – "’A Streetcar Named Desire’ and ‘The Taming of the Shrew’ are two stories that are often looked at as being sexist or as exposing the patriarchy that has kept women down these many years. I have a different take on these stories that I would like Stefan's thoughts on. I think a facet of these stories, is that they are a warning to women. Not so much about patriarchy, but about toxic femininity and what realities might await those women that revel in it. Why are these stories predominantly framed as sexist, while a story like ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’ is seen as sexy?”Your support is essential to Freedomain Radio, which is 100% funded by viewers like you. Please support the show by making a one time donation or signing up for a monthly recurring donation at: http://www.freedomainradio.com/donate
The first caller is a woman who has been with the guy she's with for eight years and their relationship is in serious...
He wants her to lust after him like it was their first time together and she doesn't want threesomes anymore.
So let's just say the Penthouse story come to life has a backstory that is deep and powerful.
The second caller Um, I think you'll see why I may have found him a little exhausting, but he almost burned down his employer's business and is upset that his employer is not helping him manage his own emotions regarding the event.
And please don't bring up his mom.
The third caller, oh, theater geek out par excellence...
We talked about patriarchy and theater and Tennessee Williams' Streetcar Named Desire and Shakespeare's The Taming of the Shrew and a really great conversation of artistic and theatrical history, which I really appreciate getting the chance to freak out in that kind of way.
Please help out the show at freedomainradio.com slash donate.
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Alright, well up for us today we have Brandy.
Brandy wrote in and said, I've been with my quote-unquote husband for a little over eight years.
He had property before we met and brought me in to develop and build a house.
He owns everything, paid cash as we went.
My name isn't on anything and we are not married even though I changed my last name.
I am now the only income earner.
He refuses to marry me because I don't have the same interests he does and has made this imaginary mark I must achieve before he feels safe to take the leap.
What he wants is for me to go back to an infatuation state and treat him like I can't get enough sex from him.
He has always wanted other women and we've had freesomes.
I like girls too, but not as much as he does.
This began most of the issues.
How do I reconcile the inadequacy he makes me feel to fulfill his wishes?
That's from Brandy. Brandy, how are you doing tonight?
I'm a little nervous.
I can imagine, I can imagine.
That's a tough message to write, isn't it?
Yeah, and it sounds a lot harsher than, you know, hearing it read back than when I wrote it.
Oh, don't worry. The harshness has only just begun when it comes to this kind of stuff.
Wow, so how did you meet him originally?
We actually met online.
Ah. And...
And I was living in another state and he was working close to the state I was in and he would fly back to where he had bought his property where he is originally from.
And one day he flew through and we met up and bought me a ticket out here and we've been together ever since.
Well, all right. All right.
And what did you find attractive about him?
Well, first of all, it's good looking.
I was going to assume that pretty much up front.
It is very driven.
I mean, it's excellent quality he has.
He had this dream to buy property and build a house on it and You know, pay cash, which is something that, you know, and not be in debt, which is something that I find extremely commendable because debt's really bad and just about everybody out there doesn't mind going into debt for their dream, but he wasn't about to do it.
So that is an attribute that I found extremely attractive in him.
He's very tenacious. Well, you don't often end up in a threesome if you're tentative.
I think that's a fairly important point to make.
Those were kind of because the girls were hitting on me.
Well, I wouldn't say that's the cause.
You know, lots of people hit on lots of people.
That doesn't mean that you end up in a threesome.
But anyway, all right. So he's good looking, he's tenacious, he's got his dreams, and he's debt free.
And from a 1 to 10, how good looking are we talking here?
Well, 9.8.
That's what he was rated when I met him.
Well, all right. And you also are, yeah, I can see a picture from your Skype.
You're also very, very attractive.
So what is it that you wanted out of the relationship before you got involved?
In other words, so you see this guy, he's jaw-droppingly good-looking, a tasty slice of man meat and a himbo, maybe.
Well, maybe not. But what was it that you were looking to get out?
Like, in other words... If somebody had said to you eight years ago, here's where you're going to be in eight years of being with this guy, how would you feel relative to what you wanted originally?
What I wanted originally was...
Actually, it's pretty sad.
I didn't really want more than just a companion and somebody I was attracted to.
And I had a shit together.
Right. You know, it's...
Because just about everybody else that I had been dating and stuff, I was single for quite some time and most of them were just complete jackasses and only were interested in me for just sex.
And he came along and he wasn't.
And I found that, you know, something I'd been looking for.
So originally or early on in the relationship, he wasn't solely focused on sex in the way that the other men you had dated were?
Right. But now, your phrase is, what he wants is for me to go back into an infatuation state and treat him like I can't get enough sex from him.
So, it's kind of become about the sex to some degree now, right?
That's been our biggest fight.
And it's been a fight for years.
And... Things degraded between us to the point where I actually cheated on him.
And we worked through most of it.
I'm still here. I understand why I messed up.
I mean, I took such a horrible, shallow road and hurt him terribly.
And by nothing other than his graces, I'm still here.
So I mean, it's...
But his biggest thing is he wants the passion back that we had.
And I have been trying all these years, all the little things that he was asking, even to the threesome.
Okay, wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry to interrupt you because I don't want to harsh your flow.
But Brandy, how do you cheat on someone when you've already had threesomes?
I may be out of the sexual politics of the younger generation, but to me, once you've had a threesome...
Things are kind of wide open, aren't they?
I mean, unless it involves barnyard animals, I mean, I don't really see how you end up, oh my gosh, I can't believe you slept with another person.
It's like, like last weekend?
When we were all three together?
Like, how, what is this?
Yeah. Well, he wasn't involved and it was another man and I was sneaking around basically.
It was somebody that I had just started working again and it was a customer that would come in quite often and threw all the nice platitudes and stuff at me and really made me feel good about myself and I wasn't hearing any of that from home.
And I fell into that, you know, stupid woman trap that it's inexcusable, but I did, you know?
So if you'd have said to him, listen, I want to go sleep with another guy, Given that he is sleeping with other women, admittedly, in your presence, we hope, or I don't know if that hope is the right word, but we assume.
So if you'd have said, there's this guy where I work who's making me feel good, I'm going to go sleep with him, he would have said, well, no, that's appalling.
It's only supposed to be threesomes with me and two other women.
Is that right? That was the initial, yeah.
So does that seem equitable?
Oh, but it doesn't make it right that I snuck around.
No, no, no. The right or the wrong goes out the window once you start having threesomes.
Come on. Where are your boundaries going to go from there, right?
But does it make sense that he gets to sleep with two women, but you don't get to sleep with one man?
Yeah, that's how I rationalized it.
Well, no, no. I'm just curious where the standards are here, if any.
Because if there aren't any standards, then he can't really call you a cheater.
And if there are standards, I'm just kind of curious where they are.
See, that's kind of where our agreement was, you know, because we talked about rules and things like that and with other women and how that was involved.
And one time I brought up another man and that was definitely out of the picture.
And then it's just, I don't know.
That's not the way those porno films go as far as I hear.
Threesome! If it's aimed at men, it's two women and a man, right?
Right. Right. Well, I've gotten to the point where, I mean, between us, I want...
The sex to be just between us, just us, and that's all.
I don't, not even fantasies, because it's just, it's too, too much.
No, no, it's, look, I mean, I understand the male fantasy.
Goes something like this.
Four boobs, good.
Four balls, bad.
Very, very bad.
Don't cross swords, right? I'm not even interested in another guy either.
Even in fantasies and stuff, when we do some role-playing things, he was my object.
He was the guy that I was looking at.
He would be the hot guy across the bar and stuff and change the way you act a little bit, but it was always still him.
I know I'm weird. Well, no, I haven't said nothing of the kind.
Nothing human is alien to me.
I'm just kind of curious about how all of this works.
So, what do you want out of life with regards to a relationship?
I mean, do you want to be married?
Do you want to be a mom? Do you want monogamy?
I mean, you said that you want monogamy, right?
So, what do you want as a whole?
I want... I want that part that's missing in our relationship.
I want that part that...
I mean, I've asked him many times, you know...
No, no. I don't want you to complain about him.
I don't want you to complain about what's missing.
What I want to know is what relationship do you want?
Do you want a married, monogamous, parental bond?
Do you want... Like, what is it that you want from this relationship or from any relationship?
I want the type of relationship where we have mutual respect for each other, somebody I can talk to, somebody I don't feel belittled or demeaned, somebody that I really truly feel looks at me and holds me to a...
I'm the only one, you know?
But if that's what you want, Brandy, why are you with this guy?
I mean, is this something that you want now?
Hang on. Sorry, I just asked you a question, so sorry for this, but is this something that you want now, or is this something you've always wanted?
It's something I've always wanted.
So why this guy then?
I mean, how long when you were dating or when you met online, did he indicate to you, or how long did he take to indicate to you that he wanted a non-traditional, non-monogamous relationship?
Pretty much right up front.
And how did he broach the subject?
No. You know, I don't remember.
Was it text?
Was it voice?
Was it in person? It had to have been in person.
And he would say something like, you're wonderful, but I also want other women to be involved in our relationship sexually.
Is that right? Yeah.
And the thing is, though, is I have found other girls attractive too, so I didn't really have a problem with that.
No, no, no, no. Hang on.
Hang on. Now you're telling me two things, right?
At that point, I've changed.
No, no, no. You said you wanted a monogamous relationship from the beginning.
And then saying you didn't have a problem sleeping with other women, those two things don't fit together, right?
I don't mean two women, but you know what I mean.
No, but I understand what you're saying.
And no, it really doesn't.
But also at the same time, I still wanted to play.
So I was kind of being a little bit...
You wanted to play. What do you mean?
I wanted to play with girls too.
But when you met him, you were in your mid-30s, right?
Yeah. Yes.
So by your mid-30s, you wanted a monogamous relationship and also, as you put it, to play with girls too, right?
Kind of an open, more of an open relationship.
So then you didn't want a monogamous relationship at the beginning?
Well, it's kind of interesting how you're phrasing that, how you're putting that, because, you know, I've talked to a lot of different swingers, I've talked to a lot of different people about these types of relationships, and it's, you know, sex is just recreation and just fun.
No, no. You can take me on a wander down syllable lane or whatever.
No, but I understand what you're saying.
I'm not trying to catch you out or something.
I'm literally trying to fathom where the hell we are in the conversation, Brandy.
Because I said, did you want a monogamous relationship when you met this guy?
And you said yes. And now you're saying that you also wanted an open relationship.
And just tell me which it is.
I don't mind which it is.
I'm just curious. Right now, I just want a monogamous relationship.
Okay. And that was not the case when you first met him, or you wanted a monogamous relationship, but you wanted the man so much that you were willing to compromise on that?
There could be any number of ways, right?
Right. Well, I'm asking.
I guess I'm not really... I can't tell you that, right?
Well, yeah. I mean...
So, he's so handsome, you're willing to share him with other women.
Is that... Yeah.
But, and as he put it, on my terms, as in, not a girlfriend, as in, hey, she's hot, we'll take her home type of thing.
Not somebody who is actually something he could get attached to or I could get attached to.
I don't. And I never wanted that type of a relationship with another woman.
And especially involved with him.
And it always came down to, you know, I've I need to be first in your mind and not have the other issues of another woman.
It got really convoluted and awful.
He wanted an open relationship and you wanted more of a monogamous relationship, but you were willing to do an open relationship because he was so handsome.
How did that turn awful?
Because I always, I got to the point where I felt completely inadequate and it was always about other women.
What do you mean? What was always about other women?
That he always just wanted to sleep with another woman and I felt like I'd never be enough for him sexually.
But he said that at the beginning, right?
He said basically when he says, I want an open relationship, he's saying to you directly, you're not going to be enough for me sexually, right?
Right. Yeah, that's correct.
Did you think he wasn't serious or did you think that he might change his mind or what?
That he would change his mind.
Okay. So you agreed to an open relationship in the hopes that he would not continue to want an open relationship?
Yeah. So he was honest, but you weren't.
You're correct. All right.
And this is the problem with lying, right?
To people, with manipulating people.
With hoping that your magical V power is going to reform the rake into the saint, right?
Or turn the R selected into the K selected or turn the man whore into a suitor, right?
A monogamous husband.
So he said, you're not going to be enough of me sexually.
You're like, I bet I am. And he's like, no, you're not.
And now you feel bad about it.
And he was, he didn't string you along for a while.
Like he didn't get you sucked into a relationship with him.
And then two years down the road, he said, I want to sleep with other women.
He said this right up front, right?
Right. Yes. And I guess he felt confident saying that right up front because he's so handsome, right?
He just has a women flock to him too.
So yeah. Because he's handsome.
Yes. I mean, this is the big tits of the male, whatever, right?
He's got the cheekbones, he's got the hair, he's got whatever, right?
So he's very handsome.
And so you were hoping that you could turn him monogamous towards you, even though he said at the very beginning he wanted an open relationship.
Yes. Right.
Right. And you said that the biggest fights, Brandy, are around sexuality.
Is that right? And is it around inviting other women into your bedroom?
Is that right? The biggest one that he wants to feel the passion, like that he's so lusted after that, you know, I can't wait to rip his clothes off type of thing.
And I just...
I have that every now and then, but not as much as he wants it to be.
And how often do you have that feeling?
Lately, it's been a whole lot less.
I mean, I don't even remember the last time I had that feeling, to be honest.
Sexuality has become such a fight that I don't even...
I mean, we still enjoy sex, but not to the extent that either one of us would really like.
I mean, I don't necessarily feel a passion either from him.
And the only time that I ever felt a lot of passion from him was when there was another woman involved and vice versa.
Wait, vice versa being the only time he felt passion from you was when another woman was involved?
Yeah, both ways. Well, sure, you're trying to repel her from the bed with the V-power, so of course you're quite passionate.
I can out-skill this woman.
Look at this. I can start a fire with my elbows.
Yeah, and I brought that up too.
That's a feeling that I get.
Oh yeah, no, it's like the audition that never ends, right?
Right, but continually adding that it's more toxic to my personal well-being when it's not really...
It's not the way to get where I want us to be and where I want to be.
Okay. I mean, other than the fact that he's got some resources and has some drive, what virtues about him, Brandy, do you love?
Let's see. I actually looked up a list of virtues.
Let's see. Tenacity is one of them.
No, tenacity is not a virtue.
Pit bulls have tenacity. Oh, he's kind of a pit bull.
But I mean, what he wants, he goes after and he gets it.
Yeah, also not a virtue.
He goes, that's not a virtue?
No. Bad people do that too.
Oh, that's true. I guess I'm a little confused as to what all the virtues would be.
Yeah. And that's where I'm...
Okay, let me step you through this because I understand it's confusing.
So, do you think that he knows you well?
No. Right.
Yes and no. So, at the beginning, when you said, sure, I like to play with girls, which makes it sounds like you're having a tea party when you're not.
Right. When he asked you to have an open relationship or said that's what he wanted, did he know that you were lying when you said sure?
No. Right.
Did he know that you weren't particularly enjoying having another woman in the bed because it was competition and you were afraid that he was going to get attached to her?
Did he know that you enjoyed the threesomes far less than he did?
No, not at first.
And then I started telling him about it and it got turned around that I was the one who constantly checking out other women.
So you told him that you were uncomfortable with or didn't like the threesomes and he turned it around on you?
Yes. Right.
See, one of the basic virtues that you need to have a sustainable relationship is the other person has to not only know how you feel, but care how you feel.
And if he either doesn't know how you feel, or he knows about how you feel, but doesn't care about how you feel relative to his sexual lusts, right?
Because if he's like, well, I want a threesome!
I know that my girlfriend doesn't really like them, but to hell with that.
I really want a threesome, right?
In which case, he's plowing over, I guess, around sideways.
He's plowing over your particular preference for monogamous sexuality in order to get what he wants at your expense, right?
That's, yeah, that's how it's been feeling.
Right. And so...
How are you supposed to feel desire for a man who doesn't particularly care about what you want relative to his own lusts?
Well.
Do you think that any of the other women decided to have a threesome with you guys because they were hoping maybe to get his attention and displace you?
No.
No. No, actually, that's no.
So why would they have a threesome with you?
Well, they came on to both of us and it was just a fun sexual experience, not a lasting relationship.
So they just wanted to have the sex with you guys and didn't want anything more?
Yes, that's correct.
And did they ever want anything more and you had to say no or that never even came up?
Like you just have one threesome and everybody goes on their merry way and gets themselves tested for STDs?
That's pretty much it. Right.
Right. Right.
And did you ever want to have children?
Oh, I have three. Oh, you have three children.
With him? Yeah, I was married before.
So not with this guy, current guy, but you have three children from a prior relationship?
Yes. And was that also an open relationship?
No. Because the guy wasn't handsome enough?
Well, actually, you know, that's...
We had talked about an open relationship, but it was, I think it was mostly because he found one of my, any friend I had, they were just all about him and just, you know, I was kind of like a stepping stone to get to him type of thing.
I'm sorry, say that again?
My first husband, when it, I couldn't have any friends that were women because they were more interested in trying to get in his pants than be my friend.
So, the husband that you had, and is that also because he was very good looking or did he have other charms?
Yeah, he was very good looking. Right.
So, you can have a type, right?
Yeah, good looking and, you know, some talents and yeah.
And? And smart too.
I mean, I can't be with a stupid person.
Well, we'll get to that.
Did you guys end up cheating on each other or any of you in the first, in your marriage with the kids?
Actually, I had cheated on him prior to us getting married.
And then I got pregnant.
We were still together, and I got pregnant.
And during this time, we were also engaged.
And we tried to fight through it.
We went to counseling. But, of course, I was being a big liar and just trying to shove shit back.
So he ended up...
Cheating on me. And that's what ended the relationship.
So I'm sorry, I'm just trying to get the pattern of the engagement and the cheating and the children.
So you have three kids.
Oh, okay.
My first husband and I, we were in the military together and we were stationed in different areas.
And I... But we had a long-distance relationship.
And I ended up cheating on him.
And then we were trying to work it out.
And I got pregnant. And so we got married.
What do you mean you got pregnant?
Did you have unprotected sex?
Yes, we had unprotected sex.
Why? For me, on my part, well, we'd always had unprotected sex.
Yeah, but you're breaking up, right?
Yeah, it was...
Sorry, how long had you been going out?
Wow, did I do that stupid woman, oh my god, I'm going to trap you thing?
Look, I have no idea.
So you're saying that your first husband, before you got married, you'd always had unprotected sex?
Yes. But how is that possible?
If you've had three children, you're fertile.
So how is it possible that you'd always had unprotected sex but didn't get pregnant until you were breaking up?
Well, I got pregnant before we got married.
And, I mean, with my first husband.
Okay, and were you having unprotected sex with your first husband before you got married?
Yes. And why were you having unprotected sex?
Well, young and stupid, and I had gone off the pill, because I had been on the pill, and then my period stopped.
So, believing what, you know, being naive and stupid, and it's like, okay, well, the pull-out method will work, you know.
But why did you go off the pill if you weren't married yet?
I had already been off the pill.
I went off the pill when I went into the military and we met while we were in the military.
Okay, so you were off the pill and you were doing the withdrawal method and you got pregnant.
Yes. Because there's sperm in the pre-com and because, right, anyway, all right.
Right, yeah. So you got pregnant, and I guess there was no Google back then, so you couldn't possibly have looked any of this up.
You just, right? Just off you go, right?
And so then you get married to your first husband, is that right?
And you have one child. Right.
And then what happens? And then we had another baby.
Right. But this was planned, right?
Right. No.
The second baby wasn't planned.
No, because apparently, you know, when they say that you can't get pregnant while you're nursing, that's not true.
Do you look things up on the internet?
I mean, they say, you know?
And then baby three, I went to my doctor and I said, put me on birth control.
I was on birth control.
Wait, so wait, after you get pregnant with the third baby, you decide to go on birth control?
No, I went on birth control after the second baby.
Okay. And then I got pregnant while I was on birth control.
And which birth control was it?
I don't remember. It was a low estrogen one.
Oh, so it was a pill?
Yeah, it was a pill. And then after that, I tried to get my tubes tied and they wouldn't do it.
So I had an IUD. And I had an IUD for many, many years.
Right. So none of your three children were planned?
Nope. Did you want to be a mom?
Actually, no, I didn't.
Well, I guess that would be why we'd call them unplanned now, wouldn't it?
No, I didn't want kids.
From what other people told me, because I knew of my stand on having kids and I didn't want any, they said I was a surprisingly good mother.
Right. So, you had three children, pre- and post-marriage with your first husband, and then you cheated on him?
Or was it before that?
Before the third kid?
Oh, it's actually before we got married.
Oh, you cheated on him before.
And did he know that and married you?
Yes. Yes.
And how long before you got married did you cheat on him?
It had been about four or five months.
and when did you get pregnant?
Let's say I was three months pregnant when I got married or two months pregnant when I got married so Yeah, so this is what happened.
You cheated on him. You were afraid that he wasn't going to marry you, so you got pregnant.
It's not that complicated, is it?
No. I mean, seriously, you're not going to try and tell me a different story, really, are you?
No, I'm not.
So, let's not talk about this, oh, well, we thought the withdrawal method would, like, come on.
You were engaged to this guy, you cheated on him, you were afraid he wasn't going to marry you, so you got pregnant.
Yep. All right.
Yes, I did. So, you were kind of taking me on a journey before, right?
You know, not knowingly, but having you just blatantly call me out on it, yeah.
I don't...
Yeah. Alright.
And why did you end up breaking up with your first husband?
Well, we'd been rocky, obviously, for quite a while.
And he had an affair at the end of our relationship, which Put the nail in the coffin and it was just the final straw and it was over.
We were done with it.
Wait, why was it over?
I mean, hang on, why was it over?
I mean, did he forgive you for your affair?
Yes. So why wouldn't you forgive him for his?
I don't follow. He couldn't forgive himself for having the affair.
Did you help him try and forgive himself?
Yeah, I actually did.
And then I moved out and I still wanted to try to work out some sort of marriage with him because of the kids.
And he couldn't decide between me or her.
So I made the decision for him.
you And how old were your kids when you divorced?
Uh, well, when we separated, they were five, four, and three.
Oh my gosh. And then, uh, but our divorce was, um, like it took three years for the divorce.
Why is that? Well, he was actually being compassionate towards me and keeping me on for, um, for medical.
Cause I didn't have any medical.
And I'd had a really bad nervous breakdown and I was in the hospital.
And when did you have a nervous breakdown?
It was about...
When was 9-11?
2000. Or 2001.
I ended up in and out of the hospital, diagnosed bipolar.
But he was...
He kept me on for the medical.
Yeah, so you could get access to the taxpayer-funded health care, right?
Yeah, while he was a firefighter.
And the job I was working at the time didn't offer medical.
Right. Right.
So, I mean, I'll give him that all day long, that he did try to help me get on my feet and stuff, and I just fell flat on my face.
And what prompted the nervous breakdown, do you think?
The relationship between us.
I mean, it was insomnia.
But what it really boiled down to is not feeling wanted.
Like you do in the relationship.
You don't feel wanted in your current relationship, right?
Sometimes, yeah. Yeah.
Okay, and so then what happened?
You took three years to divorce this guy because you wanted free healthcare, and then what happened?
Well, during this time, well, actually, I ended up in the hospital the first time because of a suicide attempt.
Wait, you tried to kill yourself?
I figured that'd be pertinent. And what age were your children when you tried to kill yourself?
Five, four, and three. My goodness.
It was just after our separation. How did you try to kill yourself?
Overdose pills. Sleeping pills.
What was the motive for that?
In that state, all I could think of was, well, I'm just doing everybody a favor by not being here.
I was actually happy that I was releasing them from what a horrible person I was and what a horrible person everybody thought I was.
Well, I think I can see, Brandy, why you ended up with a guy who doesn't have a lot of empathy because, of course, for your children, five, four, and three, to have a mother who committed suicide would be horrible beyond words, right?
Oh, yeah. My kids actually were a huge help in getting through it and getting better.
I could never ask for better kids.
Okay, so then what happened after the divorce was finalized, three years after you were hospitalized, nervous breakdown, suicide attempt, and the separation?
Well, there's more to it than just the hospitalization.
While I was in there the first time, I met somebody, and we started dating shortly after we were both released from the hospital.
Wait, you met somebody in the psych ward, and you started a relationship with him?
Yeah. Good looking guy?
Not bad. All right.
Yeah, I know that that one, I mean, it was a complete mistake.
And then it turned out he was a drug addict.
What do you mean it turned out he was a drug addict?
Oh, I didn't know he was a drug addict when I first met him.
He kind of hid it from me.
Why did he say he was in the psych ward?
He had a suicide attempt because of depression.
Yeah, I really picked a good one there.
Why is this funny? I don't...
This is tragic.
I mean, you're a mom. I know it's tragic.
Like, what are you doing? You're taken up with a psych ward dude who tried to kill himself.
Turns out to be a drug addict.
You're a mom. Yep.
Man, I'm telling you, this is all these conversations really having me re-evaluate Sharia law.
I'll tell you that right now.
I might be on to something.
So then what happened?
So during my relationship with the psych ward guy, I became addicted to drugs.
Through him? Through him.
What kind of drugs?
Heroin, crack, pills.
Oh, come on. Really, Brandy?
Yeah. I just, I gotta pause and just give me the Maury Povich.
Are you sure you're not trolling me here?
Like, you're not just scrolling through every conceivable dysfunction that you can think of.
Then I was abducted by space aliens and they took me to Jupiter and made me eat kettles.
No, I am not trolling you, honest.
No, this really happened. Heroin and crack?
As a mom? Yeah, but...
Alright, okay.
I'll go along.
I'll go along. So...
Psych ward romance guy gets you involved in heroin and crack.
Right. Okay. And things continue to end.
During this time, I was trying to work and trying to...
Who was taking care of your kids?
Actually, he had custody.
My ex-husband had custody.
I guess so.
Well, I told him, I'm like, I can't even take care of myself.
I can't have the kids.
And so he ended up with custody.
But he worked.
I'm glad. Was he still in the army?
No, actually, he was a firefighter at this time.
I'm sorry, a firefighter. So who took care of your kids while he was working?
I did. We had about 50-50 custody.
And believe it or not, I actually had a really good relationship with my kids during that time, too.
I don't believe it. I don't believe it for a split fucking second, to be honest with you.
That you're in a drug-addicted romance involving heroin and crack, but you're a great mom?
No, no, no. Come on. Don't even try that with me.
I understand where you're coming from.
Okay. Just so you know.
I mean, I'll go a long ways.
I'm not going there. Anyway, so it got to the point where I just couldn't be with him anymore and I couldn't stay.
My family offered me a ticket to go live with them to help me get clean.
I took it and I went and stayed with my family and got clean.
How long were you addicted to heroin and crack?
Probably about four years.
Four years. The formative years of your children's life.
You've got a marital breakup, a nervous breakdown, institutionalization, suicide attempt, psych ward romance, and you're addicted to heroin and crack in the formative years of your children's lives.
Yeah, and during that time, they were going through a lot of stuff too, not just from me.
They were being put through a lot of stuff.
Children don't go through stuff.
They're put through stuff. Right. You're correct.
I'm trying to remove the passive voice from you because it's not accurate.
And what were your children going through?
well during that time their dad was dating a bunch of different women just so he could have child care um they were it was I'm actually surprised they turned out as good as they did but um yeah And then the evil stepmom, they actually did have the evil stepmom and me being unstable and their dad and I constantly fighting.
And what was evil about their stepmom?
This is the marriage.
This isn't the woman that...
No. Okay, so what was evil about the stepmom?
This wasn't just like a girlfriend, like he actually got remarried?
Yeah, he actually got remarried. Okay, and what was evil about the stepmom?
With my oldest, nothing that my daughter did was right.
Everything was wrong.
Everything was taken away from her.
She was basically made like Cinderella.
I mean, it was bad. And those were reports from the other kids.
And did you know about these tendencies of the woman before your ex-husband married her?
No. What do you mean?
Did you meet her? Did you know her?
Did you? I did meet her.
Because I mean, she's going to be the stepmom to your kids, right?
Yeah, and I got to know her.
And actually, I told my kids, I'm like, you know, you have to respect her.
Oh, so you took her side over your children?
This is before all this other stuff came out.
What do you mean came out? Had they not complained about their treatment by her at all?
No, they hadn't. Why do you think they hadn't complained about being mistreated by their stepmother?
Because remember, you said you had a great relationship with your kids.
Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
They hadn't been married yet.
No, no, but people don't change that much, right?
I mean, you're complaining about a guy who said he wanted an open relationship who now still wants an open relationship.
He hasn't changed. So are you saying that somehow marrying your ex-husband turned her evil and she was not at all problematic before then?
She had to have been, but it's funny that you asked me that because he actually called me and asked me, you know, what am I doing wrong with women?
And I'm like, wow, you're asking me?
Yeah, none of this is funny, Brandy.
Really, none of this is funny. None of it.
This is all horrible and tragic.
Not just for the chaos around your life and about your ex-husband's life, but your children chose none of this.
That's correct. So none of this is funny.
Because you're trying to lure me into this sort of goofy, weird soap opera world where, you know, gosh, you know, I can't believe it.
None of this is funny. This is all horribly tragic for the children in particular.
Yes.
So you took the evil stepmom's side over your children.
You betrayed your children to appease the evil stepmom.
I didn't find out about the complaints or what happened until later, and I did try to stand...
I was long distance also.
I thought you said you had 50% custody.
This all happened around the time I was leaving to go get off drugs.
Right, so you kind of abandoned your children in a way with the goal of getting clean with drugs, right?
Yes. And how long did that take?
It was about really two years before I was completely feeling, the withdrawal was the worst, about a year of that, of just fighting the temptations and stuff.
And it really took about two years to be completely just walking away from the drugs and not caring anymore.
And how often did you see your kids in that timeframe?
I saw them probably about three times a year.
Because I'd have to travel to go see them or we'd have to bring them up to where I was.
Wait, you had to travel to see them?
You make that sound like, well, therefore you couldn't, right?
Oh, no, no, no. We did.
I was just explaining why I didn't see them that much during that time.
No, that's no explanation as to why you didn't see them.
The fact that you had to travel is not why you didn't see them.
If someone had paid you a million dollars to see your children every two weeks, you'd have been able to make it, right?
Yes. So, don't give me this travel stuff, right?
Why didn't you see your kids?
I was living in a completely other state, and I did have to travel to go see them, or we had to make arrangements with the court for them to come up and see me and my family.
Right. But you just said that if the incentive had been high enough, you would have been able to see them.
So, the question is, why?
No, if I had $2 million to travel back and forth every weekend to see them, hell yeah, I would have, but I didn't have any money.
My family's not rich.
Wait, did you have money for heroin and crack?
Actually, I didn't. It was all through my ex-boyfriend.
Oh, he gave you heroin and crack for free?
Eh, for a living, yeah. For what?
I wouldn't say free. Well, no, you said you didn't have to pay for them.
Well, no, he did supply them.
And why did he supply you with heroin and crack for free?
I mean, we know why, but we need to have it expressed, right?
Well, we were in a relationship and we were having sex.
So you slept with him for drugs.
Come on.
If you were just a roommate or some guy, he wouldn't have given you all those free drugs, right?
Okay.
Okay.
Thank you.
You know, actually... On that aspect with him though, I mean, I understand what you're going at here, but he also gave drugs away to all of his friends too.
He was one of those, his mom was, he was dependent on his mom and she kept giving him money and he'd spend it on drugs and then he'd just give it to the rest of us.
I mean, I know that it, I wasn't prostituting myself out to him for drugs.
Did you pay rent? Actually, I had my own apartment.
Oh, so you weren't living with the guy?
He was living with me.
Or we were splitting the rent.
Because I was working also.
Okay, so you split the rent, but he gave you drugs.
Right. Right.
Because he was generous.
And I also...
I mean, I... It can be seen as prostituting myself, but...
No, I didn't say that.
I didn't say that. I didn't say that.
And that's not how I would characterize it.
Well, how would you characterize it?
Well, certainly the sex would have been part of the transaction, but it wasn't like you had to say, you know, give me a baggie for a blowjob.
Like it wasn't, I mean, I wouldn't say it would be, and that's prostitution is, you know, you have to work out the honest exchange ahead of time and it's transitory and temporary in nature and so on, right?
So I wouldn't put it in that way.
But certainly sexuality would have been an aspect of it, right?
Right. So, no, to me it's not the same as prostitution.
Okay. I mean, it's one of those drug-addled relationships that are a huge mistake and never should have been in the first place.
How many people knew that you were dating this guy?
Everybody. So everybody knew that you were dating the guy who tried to kill himself and you met in the psych ward?
Yep. And did anyone say to you, this is a bad idea?
Oh yeah. And why didn't you listen?
Because this is different.
I don't know what that means.
That's basically the stupid thing that everybody says to try to not...
That's...
We categorize ourselves or I categorize in a way of, no, it's really not like that.
We have so much in common because we both have these issues and we can talk about them and we can lean on each other for support.
And that's the way that this relationship is going to be instead.
I mean, that's what I deluded myself for it to be.
And when I finally broke it off, it was like, you know, I'm...
I could really see the sickness that was there.
And that's why I ended up breaking the relationship and leaving.
Now, did you hide your relationship?
Did you date while you were on the psych ward or only afterwards?
Afterwards. We were together off and on for five years.
Right. You ever seen the movie 28 Days with Sandra Bullock?
Yes, I did.
Do you know the speech? That's given by the, I think he's the head of the rehabilitation department, Steve Buscemi.
Steve Buscemi plays the character and they say, when can we date, right?
And they're just in for like, the ones woman's in there for drinking too much and driving over a garden gnome and stuff.
And he says, well, let me tell you.
So when you get out of here, you know, wait a little bit and then you can get a house plant.
You know, a plant could be anything I like, ones with yellow leaves could be anything.
Get a houseplant. And then, if the houseplant is still alive in a year, you can get a pet.
Now, if the pet is still alive a year after that, then maybe you can start dating, right?
I wish I had had that type of advice.
You had that advice!
People told you not to date him.
I wish I listened to it.
Well, this is the thing, you know?
You don't listen. No, and my biggest fear at the time, too, was being alone because I didn't have any friends there.
Your fear was of being alone when you had three children.
Yeah. You wouldn't have been alone if you'd spent time with your children.
Right? Right.
I mean, I went from being pretty much just a stay-at-home mom to You know, now I'm in this empty apartment.
What do you mean? Well, when I left, I mean, I had been a stay-at-home mom, and I worked part-time, and their dad and I would switch off on taking care of the kids.
And then when I moved out, it was so lonely.
And why do you think you felt so lonely?
I was so used to being surrounded by everybody and the kids.
I could just run up and give them a hug and a kiss and tickle them or whatever.
My family was states away, so I didn't see them very much.
I didn't have any friends to talk to or rely on.
Then meeting him in the hospital is like, wow, you know, this is somebody who I can actually share things with and I won't be alone because I only got my kids part-time, if that.
And what's it like for you, Brandy?
What's it like for you when you're alone in an empty place?
What's it like for you emotionally, physically?
It's terrifying.
How so? I don't...
Just the non-stimulation of another person around it, or it's...
I feel like I just want to crawl into a little shell.
What's the feeling, though?
That's an image. A feeling...
So you come home from work or from being out.
You open the door to your apartment.
You come in and it's empty and it's quiet and it's dark.
And what's your feeling? I feel unloved.
I'm sorry? I feel unloved.
You feel unloved, okay.
And what's that feeling?
But what is the physical feeling?
Like mad, bad, sad, glad?
What? How's it...
I'll have them combined.
Mad, sad, depressing.
Just not having anybody around, it's...
To me, isolation is one of the worst things ever.
I know, and I'm trying to understand why.
And I'm not trying to understand why because it's completely incomprehensible.
Like, I... You know, it's like there's this old line from a pretty bad movie with Nicholas Cruz where he says, I think it's to Meg Ryan.
He says, what does a peach taste like?
A pear. What does a pear taste like?
And she says, you don't know what a pear tastes like.
And he says, well, I don't know what a pear tastes like to you.
Nicholas Cage. Yeah. Right.
And so I want to know what that, because this is it.
I mean, this is the core of it, right?
This is why you run from person to person.
This is why you ran to drugs, is to avoid this feeling.
Is it horror? Is it, what is it?
Is it when you're alone?
Nobody's there. I'm not sure how to describe what the emotion is with it, but it's like when you see on a movie and they show somebody in just a blank space all around you.
There's no interaction with that white wall.
There's no feedback on yourself.
if you don't want to be alone I can't just I feel unnecessary I feel helpless I feel helpless It's not a good feeling.
What is the conclusion about you or your life when you're alone?
What's the panic about? Wow, that's a tough one.
I'm not really sure.
Let me give you a possible scenario.
Please, don't for a moment let me tell you your experience.
Since you're a little stuck.
Okay. What is your existence, Brandy, when you're not interacting with people?
And it's just you. Yeah, it's weird because when I'm just alone and I feel empty, I just want to sleep to get it over with until somebody's around or something's around.
Right. I guess I don't even like my own company.
Well, it sounds like you're unbearable to yourself or solitude is unbearable to you, right?
It is, and I know that I also...
Look for validation from others.
Okay, that's good. Validation in what way?
What needs to be validated?
That I'm a good person, that I have a good work ethic, that I'm capable, that I'm needed and necessary.
A good work ethic?
Okay. Maybe.
That I do a good job.
Well, actually, I started my own business, and I'm doing pretty well.
But then wouldn't you want another job?
But instead, you run into the arms of men, right?
For the validation, yes.
Yeah, okay. So it's not just about the work ethic, right?
Right. Might it be something around feeling the need to be sexually desired?
Yes, that's a big one.
Okay, so when you're alone, nobody wants you.
At least that's the immediate experience, right?
But if you've built a lot of your personality structure around being attractive to men, or women I suppose, Then it would seem to me that you would run from man to man to feel desired.
Because if you don't feel desired, maybe what value do you have in your mind?
Yeah. And wanting to be desired is such a foundational aspect to your personality, possibly, Brandy, that If it comes with a side helping of heroin and crack, so be it. What other choice could you have?
Because the alternative is so unbearable.
Yeah. Okay.
So then the question is, why do you need to be needed that much?
Do you think? That's going to have to take some serious introspective work on that question.
No, it doesn't really. Everyone thinks it does, but it doesn't.
It doesn't. How was your mother's relationship with your father?
Isolated. She was isolated?
My dad worked a lot.
My mom was a lot in a state of depression.
I mean, my mom's Because dad was working all the time.
Mom would... She was a stay-at-home mom for most of the time.
And we were homeschooled for a while.
And so, I mean, there really wasn't a whole lot of interaction between my mom and dad that I thought.
Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Stop, stop, stop. Okay.
So, you keep making these causalities that make no sense to the outside ear.
Okay. Like, my mother was depressed because my father worked a lot.
No! No! I guess my first...
No, no, no. Hang on.
Hang on. Hang on.
First of all, how many kids did your mom have?
Four. Four. Okay.
So she's home with four children.
She's not alone, right?
Secondly, she's homeschooling.
Was she religious? Yeah.
Right. So she's got a whole church.
She's got a whole community. She's got other homeschooling people around.
There's no reason whatsoever for her to be isolated.
So the idea that your mom was isolated because your father worked a lot, it's not true.
And you have to, and I say this to the general audience, you have to, have to, have to be really skeptical about the dominoes you set up in your life.
Because you're saying, by setting up this domino, my mother...
Was isolated because my father worked.
You're saying that women are catastrophically depressed and isolated if they don't have a man around.
Do you see how that programs you and your life?
Your mother was not isolated because your father worked all the time.
Or worked a lot.
Now, it may be that your father worked a lot because your mother was depressed.
And he couldn't connect with her.
It may be because your mother was depressed, she went for outside external signs of status.
Depressed people often have a weird relationship to status, like they want to be higher status because they're depressed, so they feel down, and so they try and climb up a social ladder.
So what that means is depressed women will often insist or demand or encourage their husbands to work more, to buy stuff, Because they're depressed.
Which means, go to work, honey.
Because if she really missed your father, if she really missed her husband, Brandy, she would say, I miss you so much.
I don't want all of this stuff.
I don't want the extra money.
I don't want whatever he was working for.
I don't want that. I just want you.
Don't work any more overtime.
Don't work nights. Don't work weekends.
If we have to move to a smaller place, if we have to give up a car, if we have to give up a vacation, I don't care because I just want you.
I married you, not stuff.
Right? Right.
And did your mom ever say anything like that to your knowledge?
Not to my knowledge, no.
So the idea that your mom was isolated because your father worked, and when you listen back to this, Brandi, and I really hope that you will.
Oh, I will. You will hear yourself make all of these causal statements that are false.
The question is, why was your mother so isolated?
Why did she feel so isolated or depressed or alienated or whatever it was?
Now, if you have some kind of answer to that, Then we can step over this while it's because there wasn't a man around, right?
You say, oh, well, she was depressed because there wasn't a man around.
Well, what choice does that give you except to always have a man around?
Even if he has to come with heroin and crack.
Got to have a man around, otherwise I'm going to have it like my mom, right?
Even if I have to hold my nose and put up with threesomes, I don't want to have because I've got to have a man around.
Because if you don't have a man around, you're like my mom, depressed, right?
So the question is, why was your mom depressed?
Because she didn't have a really good sense of self or core sense of self.
Well, that just pushes the question one square over now.
Why didn't she have a core sense of self?
Because she was putting all of her value...
What is that noise in the background?
Are you being hunted on some private island?
No. It's okay, because it keeps a man around.
No, we live out in the country, and somebody's out target practicing.
All right. I guess you're not calling from England.
All right. Or Australia, I suppose.
No. All right.
So... Why...
Did you feel that? Did you feel the...
The isolation. Sorry, I just got distracted by the gunfire as I often do.
That's kind of random and I'm not, you know, downtown Detroit or something.
Yeah, I just wanted to check that too.
No sirens yet. No.
No, I know with my mom and watching her growing up and stuff like that, she...
She always tried to do what other people thought she should do.
No, no, no, no.
See, if you're depressed, automatically you're not doing what other people want you to do.
Did your husband want her to be depressed?
Did you four children want her to be depressed?
No. So if she's just doing what other people want her to do, she won't be, I mean, she won't, you won't know she's depressed, right?
Oh, I need to amend that statement.
When it came to outside relationships other than the family, with us she showed depression and unhappiness with everybody else.
She tried to do as much as she could to please them.
And how did she try to please them?
By doing, for example, with the church.
She would take on a lot of extra work and And be at the church a lot to try to please these women and I actually got to the point where I told my mom, they're just using you, you need to just walk away.
Yeah, I told you depressed people have a weird relationship to status, right?
Yeah. Okay, so Brandy, let me tell you what it's like for a kid, and you know this, but maybe you don't know it verbally.
Do you know what it's like for a kid when the mom is depressed, and the mom is alienated, and the mom is emotionally unavailable or distant?
Do you know what it's like for the kid?
Do you know what the kid says to himself or herself?
I'll tell you. The child of a depressed mother says to herself, Mommy doesn't take pleasure in me.
I am not fun to my mother.
I am not engaging to my mother.
My mother prefers her depression over me.
My mother cares for her sadness more than she cares for me.
And I am not enough of a spice to change the flavor of her daily diet of shit.
And therefore, I have no particular connection with my mother.
My mother is random, and my mother Cannot fight her demons with me at her side, and I am not enough of a prize for her mother to overcome her depression in order to connect with me.
The depression, as a child experiences it, I believe, My mother is selfish because my mother became a mother and now is spending her time trying to please other people rather than connect with her own children.
So why doesn't my mother want to connect with me?
Why does my mother only care about the opinions of strangers?
Why is my mother nicer to random people outside the family than she is to me?
Because she doesn't care about me.
She only cares about anyone who has power over her, which makes her a coward and a bully.
So, the women at the church, waiters, the cop who pulls her over for speeding, all these people get my mother's very best behavior, and she's chirpy and she's positive, but then when she's alone with me, that all falls in.
Like a house of cards being sucked into a vacuum cleaner, it all falls in and it all falls apart.
Why? Because my mother can't be fucking bothered.
We're not interesting enough.
Yeah, I'm not interesting enough.
I'm not engaging or enjoyable enough for my mother to overcome her depression.
I am not the cure.
I am not the connection.
There's no bond.
There's no bond.
And A bond is when the relationship is a cure for what ails you.
A bond is when the relationship and the positivity of the relationship is strong enough to pull you out of a funk is strong enough.
And it doesn't mean that it's the other person's job to pull you out of the funk, to pull you out of the depression.
It means that it's worth fighting like hell to reconnect with the other person.
And also, if you start heading down that dark path, Brandy, your partner knows, your partner notices, and they pull you the fuck back.
They pull you back.
Don't head down that road.
Don't head down. Don't follow those bloody footprints.
Don't go down to that dungeon.
Don't. You're going that way.
I care about you enough to pull you back.
And you care about the other person enough that you fight like hell to help them pull you back too.
A lot of connected relationships, when you're doing high-altitude work, When you're doing netless trapeze artist work is about prevention, prevention from disconnection, prevention from alienation, prevention from depression.
So if somebody chooses you and you're not depressed, if you start to get that way, you both fight like hell to fix it.
Now, if somebody chooses you and you are depressed, you understand?
You can't become undepressed in that relationship.
And the reason I'm telling you about all of this is we're looking for the origins, Brandy, of why you're having trouble being assertive in your relationship with your, quote, husband.
Because if you...
Do you know if your mom was depressed when she was younger or before she got married to your dad?
Oh, yeah. It's something that she battled her old life.
All right. So your father chooses a depressed woman, right?
Right. And what happens if she's no longer depressed?
The relationship falls apart.
At least that configuration of the relationship falls apart.
You know, I know that my dad really tried many times to connect with my mom.
I still feel closer to my dad than my mom.
But I know that she would tell him things like, oh, I just like reading my book.
So he'd leave her alone to read a book.
And then she turned around and said, well, why didn't you talk to me?
I was depressed because I didn't know you were depressed.
I thought you were enjoying reading your book.
So your father tried to fundamentally change your mother after he married her.
Right? Yeah.
Does that strike you as at all similar to your relationship?
Yeah, actually, I see a lot of parallels between my mom and me, which I never wanted to recognize.
Oh no, you want to recognize them, trust me.
No, you want to recognize them.
Absolutely, you want to recognize them, because otherwise you have no control.
Yeah. Otherwise you have no control.
Yeah. That's true.
If you've got to elbow your mom aside and sit on the same horse and grab the reins so that you have some control and direction in your life, then dammit, that's what you should do.
That's what you must do. Yeah.
Yeah, you're right. And you were concerned that your mother was being exploited by the church ladies, right?
Yes. Just as you're being exploited by your boyfriend for threesomes.
Because she was a people pleaser.
Because she feared being alone.
And you're a people pleaser because you fear being alone.
Well, yeah.
When did your parents get divorced?
Um... About eight years ago.
Why did they get divorced? Oh, my dad was unhappy.
And he'd been unhappy for years.
Right, but what happened then?
I think it's because my dad met another woman who...
But he hid that from us for many years, which I understand.
Wait, so your father had an affair and lied about it?
Yeah. Kept it hidden?
Yeah. We, as his daughters, all found stuff out.
We knew about his affairs well before my mom did.
Was this his first affair, do you think?
No. Right.
No, my dad traveled and we actually found ones in different cities that he frequented.
We found different women in different cities that he would go to.
How on earth would you find different women for your dad?
Oh, no, no. We found...
That he had different women, but how would you find them?
Yeah, that he had different women. Oh, my dad's not that sneaky and we're all pretty computer savvy.
Oh, you found like emails and text messages and stuff like that?
Yeah, we found his dating pages and stuff.
It's like, wow. And on his dating pages, did he say that he was married?
No. I believe they said divorced.
The one thing that stuck out the most was his hobbies, which was bowling.
But we're like, Dad, you never bowl.
Yeah. Maybe he just meant to say bawling.
I don't know. Maybe it was a typo.
Maybe the voice recognition didn't kick in correctly.
When he did leave my mom, she had been visiting with me.
We had gone down to see my kids.
When we came back, mom came home to a note on her pillow.
He didn't even have the courage to say, hey, look, I'm done.
There was a note in the pillow and stuff moved out.
Wait, so you're bagging on your dad a little bit here, right?
Yeah, I am.
Why? I find that that was such a cowardly thing to do.
You know, instead of confronting, he snuck.
Wow, I don't understand what's cowardly about it.
Oh, my dad's...
I mean, I'm sure I'm just missing something, so please don't take my skepticism as any certainty.
I'm just... Oh, no, no. If you're going to break up with someone, what's the point of dragging it out?
Well, he didn't tell her face to face or anything like that.
He just wrote a note and left.
So? Yeah.
I mean, I'm trying to figure out.
I mean, they had a dysfunctional degraded marriage for years where he'd had affairs maybe for decades.
What's there to say? She had known, I'd assume, or had some suspicion that he may have had affairs over the years.
She didn't do anything about it.
I suppose that they'd stopped having sex and she didn't do anything about it or try and fix anything.
So she was indifferent too.
Because you're focusing on your dad.
Well, your dad didn't talk to her about it.
Well, how long had he complained about her being depressed?
She did nothing about it.
How long had they not had sex or had physical affection?
She did nothing about it.
But now your dad is the bad one for not communicating.
Yeah, you're correct.
I'm not... I mean, don't get me wrong.
Your dad, the affairs, I mean, that's not a good way to do it.
But then your dad, did he just basically move into or get into the relationship with his mistress?
No. No, he moved in with some friends and then he...
He ended up moving out of state to a different regional office that he was working with.
Oh, so he didn't have a relationship with his mistress?
No, I'm really not quite sure of the whole timeline of it either, so I can't really say much more than we knew about others, but not her.
No, one day he just says, oh yeah, by the way, I'm married.
We're like, wait, what? He didn't even know.
That blindsided all of us.
Oh, he got married and didn't tell anyone.
I mean, it's his business, and I understand that, but it- What do you mean it's his business?
Oh, we're all adults. We'd moved out.
Mom and dad were separated. No, you're a parent-child.
Which means that if you have a relationship, he gets married, he's bringing that woman into the family.
Yeah, none of us even knew that he'd been dating her.
Right. So that's fucking weird.
That he's bringing someone into the family, and the family didn't even know he was dating her.
Yeah. Yeah, we stopped talking to him for a while.
Oh, and then we also found out that he had had open-heart surgery and none of us knew anything about it.
Maybe they were trying to find one.
His blood's pumping from somewhere!
Maybe it's gravity! Well, that's messed up, man.
I'm sorry about all of this.
I really am. Yeah, it's really not a Mori show.
But then why are you laughing?
Why do you keep trying to invite me into this Fun world of Randy's terrible experiences.
It's easier than crying all the time.
I've always... Hasn't turned out that way because you're 44 and you're miserable in your relationship, right?
When I start feeling really bad, I tend to make jokes and laugh just as though it doesn't seem as heavy as it is.
It's a coping mechanism that I've had my whole life.
And your coping mechanism has led you to where you are.
Yeah.
And when people laugh about terrible things, it doesn't tell me much about them.
But it does tell me everything I need to know about the people around them.
Because when you're saying terrible things, or you're talking about terrible things, Brandy, you shouldn't I mean, don't get me wrong, a little bit of gallows humor, a little bit of, you know, laughing while you're crying kind of thing.
I mean, I'm not saying you've got to, you know, stare like black hole sun straight into the void or whatever.
I mean, I get that there can be a little bit of levity, but it's kind of constant from you, right?
When we get close to something terrible, you try to lighten it up, right?
Yeah. And what that means is that there are people around you who need you to do that, who need you to disown and disavow your own experience, your own lived experience, your own rational experience to serve them.
In other words, it's inconvenient if you're sad about things that make other people feel bad.
Yeah, I've always been the one who – we called me the family cooler.
Anytime there was fighting going on, I would be the one to gloss the situation over.
Which means you had to grow up way too fast.
Way too fast.
You're not supposed to be the family peacemaker when you're a child.
That's the parent's job. Right?
Yep. And I guess what goes along with that is placating.
Of course. Yeah.
Of course. Of course.
And status, status manifesting in I've got a 9.8 boyfriend.
boyfriend.
Like your mom had to look good to the church ladies and you have to look good because your boyfriend is so good looking.
He's not going to change Brandy.
He's not going to change. And you see from your parents how much life can be wasted hoping that someone's going to change when you chose them for exactly who they are.
He told you right up front what he wanted.
Yeah. And you didn't listen.
Or you did, but you thought magic, right?
Yeah. I thought magic.
He's not going to change. And you're never going to get back the first six months.
It's never going to happen again. Yeah, I know that.
Do you? And it shouldn't.
It shouldn't. You know, it's sort of like if you go and learn Japanese for the first six months, you're really struggling.
And after you've been speaking Japanese for eight years, hopefully you're not.
But saying, well, I want to go back to that time when I was really struggling.
It's like, nope, you can't do that first six months over because now you've had seven and a half years since, right?
So you can't go back to that first six months.
You can't go back to the rip-off.
That's not supposed to last.
Be stupid if it did.
Because the whole point of that lust phase is to bond you together after you're married so that you stay together for the children.
That's what it's for. It's the hormone weld bond crazy glue that sticks you together for life so you can take care of the children.
It's not supposed to be permanent, right?
It can't be. Because, I don't know if you've noticed this, but when you're raising children, not a whole lot of tearing off the clothes going on, right?
Why? Because you're too busy changing diapers.
Yeah, I'm tired. Oh yeah, and you're exhausted, right?
And you know, you hold in a sneeze, you pee yourself a little and your boobs squirt.
I'm sure there's a fetish site out there somewhere for that.
I don't even want to know.
I don't even want to know. No, I agree with you.
Let's pull back from that. You know, remember saying pull back from the darkness, pull back from the darkness.
You want to talk about the dark road.
Right, right. So you can't have that back.
You can't. And you shouldn't.
Because we can't just live our lives for sex.
Sex is... Such a reward because it produces such a good, which is pair bonding and children and families.
It's great for that.
Right. But the idea is just like, well, I want you to lust after me like we're newlyweds and we're 17.
It's like, we're not.
We're not. Where are you relative to menopause?
Um... I'm 44.
Everything's still... I don't have any symptoms of premenopause or anything yet.
Okay. So you got no hot flashes or anything, right?
No. But, you know, there's this myth about, you know, women when they get a little older, they just want it all the time.
It's like, I think that's pretty much a myth.
Like, I think it's, I don't know, something that cougars dangle in front of young men who want to practice riding a bike or something, but...
I think it's just because they just got divorced and they're trying to show their womanly prowess off to the world again.
Yeah, something like that. I mean, I don't know.
Sexuality is supposed to, you know, we should all be lucky enough to be in great loving relationships and enjoy healthy sexuality.
Yea, verily unto our grave.
But it's not the same as when you're 17 and it shouldn't be.
It shouldn't be.
And, but this idea that you can somehow maintain that ferocious lust of youth and initial contact, it's like expecting, I mean, I hate to use this analogy with you in particular, but it's like expecting the hundredth crack hit to be the same as the first.
It ain't gonna happen. No.
Right? That's true.
So, when he says that he wants you to go back into an infatuation state and want to claw The clothes off his body, then he's saying to you, Brandy, be really sensitive to my needs.
Now, if you want to provide, sorry, if you want to receive, you have to provide.
If you want great gifts, you have to give great gifts.
If you want to be paid, you've got to work.
If you want reciprocity, you've got to provide.
If you want to take money out of the bank, you've got to put money into the bank at some point, federal.
Great. The Fed excluded.
So, my question is, Brandy, if he wants you to focus on his needs and to supply his needs, when was the last time he focused on your needs and supplying your preferences?
Take your time. I'm not sure if there's a...
He always talks about how he tries to.
Wait, he talks or you talk about how he tries to?
Well, he tells me that he's done a lot of things to try to get my attention.
No, no, no, no. Get your attention.
That's his need. Supply your needs.
Satisfy your needs. And not sexually, but satisfy your needs.
Understand where you're coming from.
Understand who you are.
Understand what's motivating you.
Understand and try and supply what you want.
Because what you want is monogamy.
Now, you gave polygamy a good old try for eight years, and now you're saying, I want something different.
Is he listening? Is he striving to provide it?
No. Right?
Right. He's shaming you.
He's putting you down. He's manipulating you.
He's just trying to do everything he can to get what he wants.
But after a while of supplying other people's needs over and over and over again and not getting your own needs satisfied, in fact, going against your own needs and your own instincts.
Don't you get a little burned out of it?
When do you show up as someone whose needs get thought about and taken care of?
You know, that's been my biggest fight with him.
Yeah.
His is sex with me, mine is my needs with him.
Right. Because a woman...
What is it? A man needs sex to feel close, but a woman needs to feel close to have sex?
Yeah. And if you're not close to him, you'll have sex, but every single time it builds up some resentment.
Oh, yeah. Wait, really?
Did I just hit your R spot?
Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of resentment with it.
Yeah, there was a woman who called in, I think it was just last week, who was saying, she said, and I had sex even though what I, and she said, and women will really understand this, I had sex even when I didn't really feel like it, just to please him.
Yep. And I remember reading, this is a novel from many, many years ago, about a woman who was dating a guy, and she's like, well, he was really mad at me, so I let him have sex with me standing up, which I don't like, but I know he likes, and blah, blah, right? And it's just like, ew, don't do that.
Yuck. Don't do that.
If you don't want to have sex, don't have sex.
Because if you have sex when you don't want to have sex, You're burning the future to feed the present, right?
Yeah, and there's another...
Sorry, let me just say one last thought and then I'll shut up, I promise.
Because when you have sex with a man and you don't want to have sex, you know exactly what he looks like when he's having sex with you against your desire.
I don't mean against your will because you're still choosing to have sex with him, but against your desire.
And then you start to feel used like an orifice because you're like, he knows I don't really want to have sex with him, but he's going to have sex with me anyway because his needs.
That's alienating, right?
Right. Makes you feel really distant from your man.
Sorry, go ahead. No, extremely distant.
There's a woman, Michelle Davis Wiener.
He actually brought her to me and said, no, this is what a man wants.
I actually bought her a book.
Wait, I'm sorry. Wait, I'm so sorry.
I just asked you a question. Oh, I'm sorry.
Is he not just confessing to be gay?
What a man really wants, Brandy, is a wiener.
Anyway, go on. Anyway, her stand on therapy and counselors, her premise is, ladies, just do it.
You'll be surprised what your man will do for you if you just always have sex with him when he wants it.
Yeah, that's terrible advice.
And this woman's making a lot of money for this. And I'm like, I tried her advice for about a month and then I'm like, I can't.
No, that's terrible advice.
I've learned I don't take advice from women anymore.
Well, no, don't blame all women for that woman.
There are very few women that I listen to and I'll take advice from, especially online.
No, the conversation is, honey, I really want to want to have sex with you, but right now I don't, and I want to solve that problem.
Now, the problem isn't solved by me pretending I want to have sex with you.
The problem is solved by us actually talking about what may have gone wrong to the point where my sexual desire is not only low, but sometimes negative.
Like, sometimes you repel me.
So, the conversation is, of course I want to want you.
I really, really want to want you.
Right now I don't. I'm not sure exactly why, but we need to have a conversation about that.
To figure out what happened, why the fire is down or sometimes feels like a mountain peak in the movie Frozen.
I don't know why.
Now you have probably some idea.
And then once you identify what the issue is, which is that maybe you have felt used or maybe you said, well, you know, I was kind of hoping that this polygamy thing wouldn't go on forever or whatever, right?
But you see, there's a reason why you haven't had that conversation and why you're trying to manipulate yourself and manipulate him rather than just have that conversation.
Because, Brandy, you're not in any position to negotiate if the absence of a man produces a suicidal void in your heart.
You can't negotiate, right?
You know, if you're hanging off the edge of the Empire State Building and someone's holding onto your hand and they say, I'm going to have to charge you $1,000 to pull you up, what are you going to say?
I'll find a thousand dollars.
Yeah! Two thousand, ten thousand.
Yeah, whatever. A billion, a gazillion, sure.
Because you're in no position to negotiate because if he lets you go, you fall to your death, right?
And so this is why I was asking you about that void.
What happens when you're alone?
Because if what happens when you're alone is skin crawling, ice centipede up the spine horror, then you're not in any position to negotiate, right?
Because if you say, I would like to transition us to monogamy, and he says, screw that.
In fact, screw that, screw that, screw that, screw that, and screw that.
And by the way, I apple-cored the watermelon just humping it in the fridge five minutes ago, right?
Then if he says, no, I'm only into polygamy, then you're going to have to say, well, we're done.
Because if you want monogamy and he wants polygamy, it no fitty, it no worky, right?
Right. But you're not in any position to negotiate if you say, I want monogamy and he says he wants polygamy.
Well, you're done then, no matter what.
Because either he's – well, unless he says, okay, I'm willing to give monogamy a try, which I don't think you think he's going to say, and there's not any particular evidence that he would because he's going the other way, right?
It's not like time is mellowing out the standing to attention penis bushwhacker, right?
And so, if he says – No, I just want polygamy.
Then if you stay, and he continues to have sex with you and to pressure you into having sex with other women, then it's going to be repulsive to you because you've said, I don't want this, and he's willing to bully you or pressure you into doing it against your preference, which makes you feel used.
Why? Because you're being used, right?
So if you take the stand for monogamy...
And he still wants polygamy, you're done.
I mean, you could stick around if you want and be further humiliated and further used, and I mean, it would be a repulsive thing to do.
But you're done then right now.
If you then say, well, I can't be done.
He's so pretty. You know, he's such high status.
And I'm 44.
And, you know, I'm going to face that horror of being alone.
I remember once, this was many years ago, I was dating a woman and she was really stressed.
And so what I did was I bought her like a half spa day or something.
Because I don't get the spa thing, but women love it, you know?
Something about putting hot rocks on your spine is just delightful for women.
To me, that's just like, well, anyway.
No, don't get me wrong. I like a good massage and all that.
But the whole spa thing, like, you can be pampered.
To me, that just means wearing an adult diaper.
But for women, it's like being pampered is like queen for a day.
I get to be Elizabeth Taylor walking out of a big bath of Roman milk or something like that, right?
So I bought her this and she got really mad at me.
I hope that there's a refund on this.
And I'm like, you're stressed.
You're hot rocks and massage.
There's some footwork there. I don't know.
They're going to put steam on your...
I don't know. They can do something.
Some cucumbers on your eyes.
Apparently that's a big thing. And she's like, if you knew anything about me, you'd know that I can't be alone with my own thoughts right now.
And if I get massaged, I'm going to be alone with my own thoughts.
And I'm like, wait, you're so stressed that you can't even receive a massage because that's torture for you because then you're alone with your own thoughts?
And she's like, yeah, I'm that stressed.
Wow. And then she said, and you're just adding to it.
And I said, yeah, but only for about five more minutes.
Yeah, ouch. So...
What I'm saying is that if you are in that situation where solitude is torture, you have no capacity to negotiate in a relationship.
Because if he says, I'm going to pull the plug, in other words, if he kicks you out into the interstellar space of Dostoevsky and horror of isolation, how are you going to negotiate?
How can you have any strength?
The need, you understand, it does not serve the need, which is a stupid way of putting it.
Let me rephrase that. The real fear, Brandy, is negotiating for what you want in a relationship.
Now, your fear of being alone is designed to disempower you in negotiating in a relationship.
In other words, you've had a horror of your own existence implanted into you so that you never negotiate with narcissistic, selfish people in your life.
Because they don't want you to.
So they've implanted a horror of solitude, which is theirs, not yours, so that you never have a strong and firm leg to stand on when you're negotiating with people.
The horror serves them.
It's not like you have this existential horror in you for some reason.
No. It's been implanted in you so that you can't negotiate so that you can be exploited.
And it starts with the family.
This guy, this guy is just profiting from it.
Listen, let me tell you something, Brandy, about this guy, your quote husband.
He obviously knows that you have a history of suicidality, of drug addiction, of nervous breakdowns, of instability, you name it, right?
Right. Why did he choose you then?
I'm not saying that there's nothing in you to love.
Please understand that. But why did he choose you?
I mean, he knows, right? I assume you told him these things at some point or another, right?
Or did he? Oh, yeah. You did.
Okay. Okay, go ahead. Oh, yeah.
I was very upfront about all of it.
Right. I was his last chance.
What do you mean? Well, he had a certain cutoff date, and if the right girl didn't come by by that time, he was just going to be destined to be alone.
Oh, so he didn't really have much capacity to negotiate either, right?
Apparently not. Except he did, I guess.
Because he said he wanted to be polygamous.
So, Brandy, if I met you, as I have now, and I appreciate this conversation enormously.
So, Brandy, if I were to meet you in the dating environment and learn about your history, do you know what I would know about you?
That you would have a very tough time negotiating.
That you would have a very tough time saying no, right?
Mm-hmm. Now, what I could do is I could try, if I wanted to, I could try and sort of say, well, you know, I get that given your history, you don't have a lot of capacity to negotiate.
But here's what I would suggest, you know, we'll negotiate about this.
And I'd be very sensitive knowing that you had a tough time negotiating.
I would really try and help that along in you.
I would try and inculcate or bring that to life in you.
Knowing your vulnerability in this area, I would be very sensitive to it, and I would really, really work hard to try and give you the safe and secure environment in which you could begin to learn how to negotiate.
Because the last thing I'd ever want to do, Brandy, is to exploit your history.
You understand? Yes.
Now, if I were a different kind of person, Brandy, do you know what I would do?
I would say, man...
She really, really can't negotiate for shit.
So I bet you I can make her do a whole bunch of stuff she doesn't want to.
Bet you I can get her in the bed with other women.
Bet you I can kind of bully her.
Bet you I can really get what I want from her.
Because she was trained and bullied into not being able to negotiate.
So I can really exploit the living shit out of that and her.
Because I know where her vulnerabilities are and I can use them to get what I want at her expense.
If I were a very different kind of person, perhaps even an opposite type of person.
Because once you reveal your pain to someone, once you reveal your secrets to someone, Brandy, they are now responsible for how they treat you based on that knowledge.
So if you told him all of his history, he would know that you had a fear of being alone, and he would know that because of that, you have very little capacity to negotiate in a relationship.
And if he then decides to exploit that to get what he wants, that is a SDM. That is a supreme dick move.
Once a man knows about your history, he can either help you with it, he can walk away, or he can exploit it, that knowledge of where you came from.
I think I know which route your current man took.
Because now he's still saying, let's focus more on my needs.
Give me more of what I want.
Serve my pleasures.
Want me. Need me.
Make me feel sexually attractive.
Desire me. But your whole life has been serving other people's needs.
Isn't he just exploiting that?
Like the drug addict, do drugs with me!
I don't want to do drugs alone because that seems weird.
Okay. You're an undercover because you're not doing them.
Wait, sorry, say that again? You're an undercover cop because you're not doing drugs with us, yeah.
Oh, is that one of the statements?
Like, you must be an undercover cop if you're not doing drugs with them?
Yes. That's always, yeah.
The only people's needs you haven't served are your kids.
But that's because they don't have power over you, right?
Right. They can't really threaten you with rejection because they're so dependent.
You know, my youngest, he actually, he confronted me about it.
About what? He confronted me about my drug use and how it made him feel and I looked straight at him and I said, you're right and I'm sorry.
I wish I could change it and he didn't deserve to go through that.
Well, you make sure you keep that conversation going with him.
Oh, I have my kids and I actually have a good rapport, good relationships.
Do they know that you're in a polygamous relationship that you dislike?
Do they know the central torture of your existence as it stands?
To an extent, yes.
Well, and what have they told you to do?
Actually, they haven't told me anything.
Wait. Your kids know that this is a torture for you, this current relationship, if I understand your issue correctly.
Oh, they don't know...
No, they don't. They don't know all of it.
How old are they? They don't need to be.
I'm sorry. My oldest just turned 23, 23.
22, 23. 21 and 20.
Now, I'm not saying that you've got to sit there and say, you know, here's a video of mom in a threesome or anything.
I mean, it's got to be age appropriate and certainly they're adults and all that, right?
Yeah. But if you say he wants an open relationship and I don't and it's kind of tearing me apart.
They really don't know that part.
Does anyone know that part?
A few people, yeah.
And what did they say? Oh, what they've always said.
Why don't you leave them?
That's, you know, the resounding thing I get from my family and everybody and people around me who know me.
So I stopped complaining to everybody because I got tired of hearing, we'll leave him.
So they didn't say, why don't you leave him?
They said, leave him? Well, my family, I know that they don't like him.
They didn't like my first husband.
They certainly didn't like the drug addict.
And do you want to stay or do you want to go if you assume that he's not going to change?
I very much like to stay.
I'd like to work on my negotiating skills.
And if I can't, then...
Now, you've trained him for eight years on not negotiating with him, right?
Well, I've been trained my whole life to...
No, no, no. What I mean is that if you're going to start working on your negotiating skills...
Then starting in a relationship where you've sexually rewarded a man for not negotiating with him for eight years, that's a bit of a steep climb to start, right?
Right. And what is it that you want to stay for in terms of what's the upside?
Well, the other part of our relationship is actually pretty good.
I love having deep conversations with him.
I like working with him, working together.
Oh, you guys work together?
Well, on different projects.
I mean, we built this house together.
Right. And, you know, and the other day we were arguing about the marriage thing and He was breaking it down, and he says, you only see me as an asset, like the property, the car, the house.
I just see him as an asset in stability.
And I couldn't, I felt so sick to myself.
I'm like, wow, I just, like all those other women out there who have been railing against, you know, I rail against because this is the kind of crap I pull.
Wait, wait, he said to you, how recent was this, Brandy?
A few days, actually.
So he says to you recently, right?
So after eight years, he believes that you don't see him as a human being, but rather just as a provider or an asset bank, right?
That's what it boiled down to.
After eight years, that's how he sees the relationship.
That's how he sees you.
How can you try and tell me this is a good relationship?
Hang on.
He doesn't think you love him at all for him.
Whether you do or don't, I don't know.
But if he feels after eight years where you've tried to please him and tried to, right?
If he feels that you don't know him, that you don't care about him, that you just view him as an ATM, How can that be a good relationship?
It really hasn't been, and that's something that we've both been talking about too.
Now, either he genuinely believes that, right?
Mm-hmm. If he genuinely believes that, there is no relationship.
Well, I couldn't rebuttal.
No, hang on, hang on.
If he doesn't believe that, but he's saying it to win a fight, that's a terrible thing to do.
And it could be that you only see him as an asset and he only sees you as an ass.
bracket pizza But if this is where you guys are after eight years, that's not good.
No. No, it isn't.
And he's not going to marry you, if he believes that you're just in it for the money.
And he's not even asking himself, or maybe not openly asking himself, why would I be with a woman who only wants me for my money?
Or my looks.
Maybe the acid is status from his looks.
That's something I've...
When topics like that come up, it's...
because I was his last chance and he's got to make it work.
Well, that's no good. You don't want to be with someone just because they're terrified of being alone, right?
Then you're a drug, right?
You understand. You're a drug.
You're enabling his addiction.
Yeah.
Well.
You understand, I don't, I mean, I'm not saying whether you should stay or go because it's not my life.
Right, I fully understand.
Okay. But I never really put it together that I was just so afraid to be alone.
I've had so many years of therapy, and...
It just never...
I had one that helped a lot.
One therapist. And the last time I talked to him, it was more, you know, don't compromise.
Cooperate with each other. Figure it out how to work it together.
And actually, his advice was the two of us to get counseling together.
To go to a counselor.
Yeah. Yeah, I'm not a therapist, but I got to be honest with you, Brandy, sometimes I don't know what the hell most therapists are doing.
Yeah, same here. Actually, I used to go in and play games with them.
I'm like, I'm smarter than you are.
In fact, when I went into, I'm like, you can't help me.
You're below the pay grade that can help me.
So I'm just here to vent. I guess I should be honored.
I'm on the pay grade.
I have clearance.
Pretty high one, just so you know.
No, you've really helped me a lot, and I really do.
I'm surprised that you guys got me on the show this fast.
Well, I hope you'll let us know how it goes.
Oh, definitely. And you've given me some serious insights about myself, and I love listening to your show.
No. Well, I appreciate that.
And I appreciate the honesty and openness.
You know, for people who, again, I may mention this from time to time, but for people who don't do these kinds of calls, it's not easy.
You know, what Brandy is doing in a public forum as well is very hard and it's very honest.
And I really, really appreciate that.
It helps people more than you probably know because you don't see the inbox, right?
So I appreciate your generosity and spirit.
And I appreciate your time today.
And I look forward to hearing how it goes.
All right. Thank you, Stefan. Thank you.
Alright, up next we have Paul.
Paul wrote in and said, I believe that the other employees, my boss included, have the capacity to feel and exhibit empathy.
However, they did not exhibit empathy.
Although I've gotten plenty of moral support from family and friends, for which I'm very grateful, I'm appalled at the complete and utter lack of empathy exhibited by my boss and coworkers.
Should I be appalled? Should I have expected empathy or the behavior thereof in the first place?
That's from Paul. Hey, Paul.
How's it going? Going well.
Thank you so much for taking my call.
What happened? Well, I'm going to be cautious here because I don't want to give up too many identifying details.
So, just bear with me if I'm a little slow in my responses.
No, no. Take your time. I appreciate the endless editing.
Thank you for understanding.
So, a residue of a material that reacts violently with water.
I used it. I wiped it clean from a surface with a paper towel.
And I threw the paper towel in the garbage, which already had water and other combustible material.
Well, water isn't a combustible material, but it had water and it also had combustible materials in it, such as paper towels, cardboard.
Like a water bomb in combo with what you wiped.
Right. Exactly. Exactly.
But it was a small, very small amount, but that's all it takes.
And so, with my back turned, the fire broke out in the garbage can.
And this is, you know, imagine one of those like Oscar the Grouch from Sesame Street garbage cans.
Yeah. The big, big round steel garbage can.
And I don't see it because I got my back turned, but I start to feel the heat and I turn around and there's a fire.
Yeah. And the fire, which was closer to the...
It was closer to me than the extinguisher.
Excuse me. The fire was closer to me than the extinguisher.
And so, at that point, it was all action.
No thought, really.
So, I took the garbage can full of fire out of the building through the back exit.
Wait, you picked up a garbage can with bombs and fire in it?
No, no, no. What are you, Batman?
Well, okay. Let me elaborate.
So, at this point, it was the paper towels and other things in the trash can that were burning.
It was not a bomb that was burning like that.
Well, you didn't know that. There could have been more stuff going down there.
Well, but I was able to use my deductive reasoning to determine that because, like I said in my question, I was the only one there, so I know what I... No, I just thought you would have grabbed the fire extinguisher and used that rather than pick up the fire and transport it, but, you know, I'm just trying to make sure I follow along.
No, no, no, sure, and in hindsight, I totally would have done that, for sure.
But, you know, like, I can't speak for anybody else.
But, you know, I like to think that I know what to do in this kind of fight or flight situation.
Like I said, there was no thought.
There was just action. And it's funny. It's funny just for those who haven't been in this kind of stuff.
Like, it's funny just how calm and focused you are, right?
We always think we're going to, you know, but laser, right?
Exactly, exactly.
So, to continue, I dragged this garbage can full of fire out of the building.
There was an exit that leads directly outside, okay?
And again, not thinking, just acting.
And in my not thinking-ness, I locked myself out of the building and my keys and phone in the building.
Oh, there was more fire in the building?
Well, I didn't... I was pretty sure.
I was about, let's say, 90% sure that I had taken the whole fire with me in the garbage can.
But there's that 10%, you know, that 10% just bothering me.
And there was no window through this door.
And there was no one around.
All the building was locked.
Oh, and you couldn't even phone because your phone was inside.
Exactly, exactly. And so, I have this garbage can full of fire.
And what I do is I drag it further away from the building into the parking lot, right?
Right. And while I was dragging this fire away, some of the material had spilled out of it, causing several small fires just outside the building, okay?
Right. And that's the indication that they might be inside too, right?
Exactly. And so, you know, my heart rate is pounding.
I start yelling for help and I stomp out the small fires that are directly behind the door, okay?
And then...
I look for a hose. I don't find one.
And then I run around the building trying to bang on doors.
And then in what seemed to me like an eternity, there happens to be this passerby and I flag him down and he calls 911 and the fire department shows up.
And they immediately put out the garbage fire and they're grilling me with questions because they don't know, you know, the whole...
I don't know if you're familiar with the NFPA diamond, you know, the red, blue, yellow diamond of, you know, how toxic are the materials in this room, right?
Well, yeah, they can't just go rushing into a place not knowing what's maybe burned up in the air, what might be explosive.
I mean, yeah, for sure. Yeah, and if there's anything spilled.
And so, I'm answering all these questions and I'm doing it very succinctly.
I'm not rambling and I tend to ramble.
So, by the way, if you catch me rambling, please just say, hey, Paul, get to the point.
So, anyway, they're grilling me with all these questions and then at this point, Hazmat was on the way.
And then... Once I answered all of the fire lieutenant's questions, he called off Hazmat and I let them- Also, sorry to interrupt, but given that you had the Wicked Witch of the West firebomb to begin with, they don't want to hit- they don't even know what to hit the fire with, right?
Of course, of course, because not all fires are water compatible.
Agrees, fire! Let's hit it with a bucket of water!
Pah! Totally, totally.
Electrical fire! Hose!
Okay, yeah. So, of course, they're trying to figure that all out.
And the lieutenant, you can imagine, he's like alpha male defined.
And he is, you know, yelling.
You know, he's got to take control of the situation.
I totally understand. But for me, it's like, okay, you know, like freaking out.
And so, I lead the firefighters into the building.
And by this time, there are...
There's like 5 fire trucks.
They've got the building surrounded.
They're preparing for the worst. And so, we finally get...
There's like a box near the entrance to...
Like another entrance with keys that's specifically intended for the fire department to be able to open it to get to the keys to get into the building, right?
And so, we get in and there's 3 firemen who are following me and they are in their full gear.
And they follow me and I rush.
I'm blowing them in the dust.
I mean, they have to walk slowly and scan.
That's what they're trained to do.
But for me, it's like, hurry up, hurry up, get over here, get over here.
Plus, they got 80 pounds of crap on them, right?
Exactly. Yes, that's all.
I can only imagine. I've never put on all that gear before.
I'm sure the last lady did during some sort of role play.
But anyway, let's go on. Okay.
Well, I have no comment on that.
But... So, I look in the window.
There's like one of those narrow windows into the room.
And I'm inside the building.
The original one where the garbage can was?
Correct. Yeah, okay. And so, I look in the window.
I don't see any fire, but I can't see the entire room from that one little strip of window.
And so, finally, we get in.
The three firemen enter first.
I enter after them.
And... I'm happy to report that we confirmed that there was no fire in the building and fire suppression did not engage, nor did the fire alarm sound.
Long story short. Oh, that's it?
I mean, there's more to it.
No, no, but I mean, that's it for the fire.
Yes. Okay, nearly destroying an entire building.
I wasn't sure what you meant there.
You know, like there's a shell left after the bombs go off or something.
There's like a nuclear shadow of a fireman upside down against the wall or something.
Okay, so there could have been a big fire that could have destroyed the building, but it turned out that there was very little damage done to the building.
Yeah, and I wasn't trying to be manipulative in that.
Good clickbait, brother.
No problem. Okay.
I was on tilt when I wrote it and- No, that's fine.
That's fine. But pricey, right?
Pricey. Like in terms of, was it expensive for the employer?
Was what expensive? I'm sorry.
The whole situation.
No. I mean, we lost a $25 garbage can.
Oh, that was it? Yes.
They didn't have to pay for the fire situation?
You mean the fire department?
Yeah. No, I think that's, I mean, you know.
That's a tax thing, right? Okay. That's a tax thing, yeah.
So anyway, you know, what was I going to say?
I just drew a blank, so you're welcome to China.
All right. And when did this happen, roughly?
Just like within a month or a week or whatever?
Less than a week ago. All right, all right.
All right. So, I'm still coming down.
So, your boss is called in the middle of the night.
You call him and he shows up, that kind of thing?
Well, he was in a different state at the time.
And so, the site manager was also called.
And she's a wonderful lady.
Shout out if you're happy to be listening to this.
You're a wonderful lady. Thank you.
She showed up.
And she and the fire lieutenant, they stayed with me to help me come down off the adrenaline.
Yeah. And I mean, because let me rewind back for a little bit.
And this is deeply personal, but I think it might be important for the listeners.
As soon as we went in, okay?
And we had finally confirmed that the building was safe.
One of the firefighters looked me in the eyes and he said, good job.
You saved the building. And at that point, it was like the Hoover The tears just started flowing.
Oh, absolutely. I completely understand that.
Right. And it was strange because I'm normally not very emotional, especially at work.
I have to be very pragmatic, quick decisions, you know.
We have very little time in this company for any kind of feels-y stuff.
Who does, right? Right, right.
No, I know what you mean in terms of this is maybe a guy thing.
It may be a guy thing.
But... Okay, I'll do a little bit of story just because I want to make sure that we're on the same page as far as this thing goes.
No, please. Please go ahead.
After I left the National Theater School, well, before I left the National Theater School, I worked on a play called Seduction, which was an adaptation of Tregenius' Fathers and Sons, and I produced the play and directed the play.
And the theater that I rented the play to be performed in had just gotten...
It's floor redone, like the base, the floor of the theater in this beautiful Wood that was like golden-hued and had the stain and the lacquer and it was just lovely,
right? Now, the play took place in a series of gardens and had this really great woman who was a set designer and she brought in actual trees, like real honest to goodness, not fake papier-mâché crap, like actual trees with leaves on them.
It was incredible. And the lighting went through the leaves, and it really looked like an actual garden, and it was amazing.
But by God, did it ever chew up this floor, bringing these leaves in, right?
So I saw, and the owner of the manager, I guess, of the theater was like, oh yeah, we just got this floor redone, and it's beautiful, and it's been forever, and it was like so expensive, and blah, blah, blah, right?
So then, like a couple of days later, After the set designer gets the trees in, there are like these scratches on it and it's scuffed like crap and there's divots in it and so on, right?
Oh man, I'm telling you, Paul, I couldn't believe it.
I was just like, I'm doomed.
I'm doomed. I think that the re-flooring had cost like, I don't know, $50,000 or $40,000, like something like that.
And I was like, oh my God, they're going to make me redo it.
Flooring is expensive. I had it done in my house, so...
Yeah, well, for a play, it's a whole different thing, right?
Sure. And...
I mean, I was a broke student, right?
I didn't have any kind of money.
I was like, well, that's it.
If they want me to do this, what are they going to sue me?
I can't go back to school.
I'm going to just have to get a job and spend the next five years paying off this thing, this beast.
I was like, I couldn't sleep, right?
Right. Then eventually, I did – this is so weird.
I did fall asleep. And I had a dream that a friend of mine's father, the same guy talked about when I was talking about Iran, that a friend of mine's father said it was okay.
Now, it's weird to get your, you know, positive affirmation from a dream figure.
I mean, I know that this was like a real fireman and so on.
But when that male authority figure says, yeah.
You did okay. You did all right.
You did a good job or it's fine.
It is like a weight gets lifted off your shoulders.
Exactly. The next day, I had to meet the manager who was going to review the set.
I went and I was like, all right, let's find out what's going to happen.
I went and I stood and he says, man, this is one of the most beautiful sets I've ever seen.
I'm like... It is.
It absolutely is.
And he walks down, he looks around, and I said, you know, I'm sorry, I'm going to tell you there are some scratches here.
And he's like, what can I tell you?
Theater is messy. And I was like, yes!
My life can continue.
Oh, right.
Yeah. It's a little character.
So, you know, this is before Krypton.
So anyway, so just having that Male authority figures say, good job.
And this is why, of course, to keep men insecure, you have to keep them away from male authority figures.
Exactly. This is one so foundational to understand.
Why are men so tentative?
It's because they've been separated from their male authority figures.
And as a man, if a male authority figure says, okay, it's like, whew, weight lifted off my shoulders.
I can stride confidently. I know what's what.
I'm good. I have closure.
And this is why you have to keep male authority figures away from men as much as humanly possible, because they empower us.
Like, nothing else.
I'm just telling you that right now.
Okay. So, that's where I get this from.
Now, as far as, to cut to the chase, as far as whether you should be getting empathy from your boss and your co-workers?
Oh God, no. Really?
Oh yeah, no, not at all.
Would you elaborate please?
Well, family and friends, sure.
But if I'm running a business and someone almost burns down my business, I'm sorry, you're not going to get a lot of hugs from me.
Like you're not. It doesn't mean I hate you.
It doesn't mean like you didn't get fired, did you?
No, sir. I did not. All right.
So, I can't.
I don't believe I can. I think I'm too indispensable to the company for them to lose me, especially right now since we're on a really hard deadline.
Okay. So, you didn't get fired and that's good, I suppose.
But the idea that you're going to get forgiveness and positive affirmations and so on from...
It's a business, right?
Well, it is, but please allow me to elaborate on the circumstances a little bit more, and maybe you'll sort of start...
You told me to stop you if you're going to ramble.
You gave me the story, right?
Okay, well...
Okay, just keep it short, because I want to make sure I don't lose my place, but go ahead.
Okay, so there's precedent here.
We've talked about, you know, issues in the past, personal issues, you know, like before and the boss, co-workers...
This is mostly about the boss, right?
Because the co-workers mean less to me than the boss does.
So, there's precedent.
We've talked about issues before.
I've talked about personal issues that I've had and the feelings that come with that.
Just because I feel like it seems as though I owe that.
If there's a slight slump in my productivity, I need to be able to explain it, right?
Wait, wait. Why do you need to be able to explain it?
If there's a slump in my productivity at any point in my work, then I think I owe an explanation as to why I'm not performing on the up and up.
Why? Doesn't your boss trust you?
That there's a good reason if you're not producing?
I don't know if he doesn't.
No, listen, you got to get off the explain thing.
Okay, okay. No, you have to try.
Because if you know your value, then you know that you're trusted, right?
Yes, but- It looks insecure if you- It does.
If you try and explain blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
By the way, I take 100% responsibility for the events that happened that day.
I just want- No, no, no. Let's not- You're trying to jump off this thing now, but I'm saying don't explain.
Now you're trying to explain something else, okay?
So stop explaining. Yes.
Okay. Now, if there is something important that your boss can do, To change your productivity level.
So if there's some machine that's not working or if there's a draft or if the light is shining in your eyes and the boss can hang up a curtain or something, then go say that, right?
To improve the productivity.
But as far as, you know, well, I had a mild headache today and my back's hurting a little bit and I didn't get as much sleep as I wanted.
Like, no, no, no. The boss doesn't care.
He can't fix it, right? Only bring to your boss what your boss can fix.
And I'll tell you this. How much do you think this building is worth in the contents?
Well, the building itself would have been fine, but the entire contents of the room would have been destroyed by fire suppression.
And how much would that have cost your boss?
I'm not sure. I mean, we had insurance.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars, at least?
It probably would have been billed to insurance, but there's time.
No, that doesn't matter. It matters, it's why you have insurance.
But it's not like your insurance rates are going to stay the same if you bill that, right?
Right, but I'm trying to calculate it in my head.
You know, we have all our equipment. Okay, it's a lot of money.
It doesn't matter. It's a lot of money, right?
Yes, it is. So, your boss is like wakes up in the middle of the night or whatever the hell is going on and it's like, your business is on fire, right?
And he's terrified because what's the downside for you?
You get fired. What's the downside for him?
He loses his entire life's work.
Oh, and I understand that.
Okay. So, you scared the living crap out of him, right?
Now, had you been trained on – and I'm not trying to make you feel bad if you want to understand it from the boss's perspective, right?
I understand. Okay. So, had you been trained on don't mix this crap with the water?
We have SOPs and in that instance, I did not follow it.
Okay. So, and listen, again, we all make mistakes.
The number of times I've done videos where something's gone wrong with the recording or the audio or it's oversampled or it's, you know, whatever.
I mean, it's ridiculous, right?
I mean, I'm waiting for me to do a video with freaking lens cap on.
But anyway, so you made a mistake, which is human and so on, right?
But it wasn't like Something you hadn't been trained on.
So he's mad at you for endangering his livelihood, for, you know, can you imagine if some stuff had blown up?
If some stuff had blown up and maybe damaged someone or damaged someone's car or I don't know what...
Oh, I have what if to this.
Yeah, what if you had gone into the building and been horribly burned or one of the firemen had been injured because you didn't say something?
Maybe he would have gotten sued by someone who got...
This is like, oh my God, this could have been the end of his life as far as economics and peace of mind and so on, right?
Yes. Now, obviously, he's happy that it didn't get...
Really bad. But if you imagine, I don't know, there's this weird thing which I didn't understand for a long time about people getting killed because truck wheels come off the truck.
I couldn't quite figure it out until I realized that the truck wheels come off the truck, they bounce over the median, and then they smash into someone's car, and of course it can just kill them, right?
It's not like your airbag's going to do you a lot of good when you've got a giant truck wheel coming in through your windshield, right?
Mm-hmm. So, let's say that some trucker just forgets to tighten the lug nuts on his wheel or the spare wheel or whatever, and it comes rolling off and smashes stuff up but doesn't kill you, right?
Now, you may forgive that trucker, but you're not going to help him process his emotions because you're pissed and you're scared and you're playing the what-if game in your brain, right?
Yes, but I'm not asking my boss to help me process my emotions.
What I'm asking for, all that I would have required would have been like, hey, you know, I can't imagine what, you know, like, and this didn't just happen to me.
I caused it. But, you know, I can't imagine what happened, but, or, you know.
No, he knows what happened.
What do you mean you can't imagine what happened? No, no, no.
In my mind. I can't imagine what's going on in your mind right now, but if you need a little bit of time off or you need to talk about it a little bit more, I'm available.
Why would your boss want to help you with the emotional processing of your mistake that could have cost him his business?
Well, for one, to ensure that it doesn't recur.
Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that he has to help you process stuff, otherwise you're going to do it again?
I bet you you're not going to do that again, right?
What I'm saying, sir, is that my happiness is very valuable to him, even if it's a purely amoral economic calculation.
Isn't his happiness valuable to you?
Of course it is. And you've used the living crap out of this guy with the mistake.
Right. So why don't you offer to help him process things?
Why don't you offer to make sure that it's his happiness is somehow restored?
Why is it him to you? Well, I have certainly asked him about that.
I've written my report on the incident.
I gave all of the suggestions and changes to the SOPs, which were very minimal.
Some of the SOP was not quite what it should have been.
Again, I'm not trying to absolve responsibility.
No, Paul, these are about your feelings.
You need to feel secure and confident in your relationship with your boss again, and you're looking for him to give you that sign.
Well, I am.
Yes. I am.
You're right. And in other words, you have a need that you want him to fulfill.
Now, he had a need, which he wanted you to fulfill, called, don't set fire to my entire life.
And you failed in that.
Again, I'm not trying to make you feel bad.
We've all made mistakes. But the idea that he should provide something to you is not particularly rational, in my opinion.
Okay. So, what that means is, of course, if you want to restore...
You know the old thing that comedy is tragedy plus time?
If you want to restore your relationship with your boss, keep doing a great job, keep doing fantastic work, don't burn anything down, and maybe in a year or two you can make a joke about it.
Right. But don't almost burn down the guy's life and then want something else from him emotionally.
I don't think that's fair. Okay.
Now, why don't you like this feedback so much?
Well, no, I certainly- No, you don't.
I can feel you closing down.
Okay, fine. I mean, I'm not criticizing.
I'm just- I can feel you closing down.
I didn't say fine. I need to put words in my mouth a little bit.
I didn't say fine. I just- I think if you understood the kind of employee I am and the above and beyondness that I go for this company, it's a very small company, okay?
That's why you're not fired.
That's it. Right.
I get, listen, I get how valuable you are.
You almost burned down this guy's entire fucking life and you didn't get fired.
I get that he's like gritting his teeth and saying, well, this guy's fantastic.
He's so fantastic. I'll let this one go.
That's implicit in the relationship, you understand, right?
I mean, let me tell you something.
Go ahead. So, I was a...
Involved in acting when I was younger, as you know.
And this is the amateur stuff.
I was in university, and I did a double bill of plays.
One was Harold Pinter's A Slight Ach, and the other was Chekhov's The Bear.
And I played the lead in A Slight Ach, which is a very nihilistic play.
And I played the butler in The Bear by Chekhov.
And these were two... Interesting shows to parallel together.
So basically, did two plays in one night, which was fun and interesting.
And... But beforehand, because when I first acted at university, I mean, there's a reason why I ended up going to theater school is that I was, I think, considered to be the best actor around and so on.
So the director would just chat with me about wanting to do these shows, right?
And I had no idea he'd already cast me in it.
Because I'm like, well, I was in my mind, I was like, well, I guess I'll just audition or whatever, right?
Because he didn't give me any feedback.
But then the idea, you know, so he said to me, okay, so when can you start, right?
And I'm like, what? I'm hired?
And he's like, well, of course you're hired.
Who else am I going to go to? You're like the best actor around here.
And I'm like, oh, you didn't say anything.
And he's like, do you not know that you're the best actor?
Why on earth would I be talking to you about all of this stuff?
I don't just sit there and discuss my play plans with random people, dude.
You know, like, you know you're the best actor.
Or if you don't, you should.
And I need you for these plays because they won't succeed otherwise.
Mm-hmm.
And that was an insecurity on my part.
I'm following.
And it may take a while for him to get over being upset with you.
He's keeping you on, which is a great compliment to your value.
But my question is, why do you need him to be positive towards you?
In general, I don't.
No, no. We're not talking in general, Paul.
Come on. Work with me here, man.
We're talking about this instance.
This instance. Okay. I apologize.
Well, the morning after the incident, I... I was trying to keep it together because I was still quite rattled from this and I'm not sure...
Totally understandable, by the way.
I completely understand. I'm still rattled from this and I'm showing clear signs of distress.
Beat red face, hard to look people in the eye.
You get the idea. The boss, of course, he's just not picking up on the non-verbals.
He's not acknowledging them.
And I've had several jobs in the past and I've had several different managers in the past and some of them better than others.
And at least a few of them would have pulled me aside and said, hey, listen, do you need to get some air?
Or just anything, right?
Anything. Even if it's...
If my wife, for instance, got into an accident that was her fault and endangered our child or something like that, if it was a close call with our child, She would be responsible and she would have almost taken away my child by accident.
You get the idea. But I would still empathize.
Paul, hang on, hang on. Yes. May I please finish?
No, no. No, because it's too crazy an analogy.
Okay. This is your boss, not your wife and your child.
It's your boss. It's an economic relationship.
Yes, you're correct.
No, no. But it's interesting and I think revelatory that you went to an example of your wife.
It's an economic relationship.
Now, you are getting support from your friends and your family, which is great, right?
Yes, it certainly is.
But you don't want to over layer a personal relationship with an economic relationship.
And that doesn't mean you can't be friends with people you work with, but it's an economic relationship.
And in particular with the boss, it's a challenge, right?
But it's an economic relationship.
So if you try to make an analogy With your wife, it means that you're pouring way too much emotional energy and focus into the relationship with your boss, which means that it's about your dad.
I'm sorry? It means that it's about your dad.
My dad? Yeah. Well, before we get into that, may I just offer another thought?
There was another close call that happened with one of the interns who's below me, okay?
And he was clearly distressed.
It was a close call. We took care of it.
It was fine. And he was showing clear signs of distress.
And, you know, I have a big skin in the game with this company.
Like, I want to rise to the top.
It's like you said in one of your videos.
Like, if you're not... Oh, yeah.
No, you're very ambitious, Paul.
And that's one of the reasons I want to spend time on this because I really want to help you achieve your ambition.
Thank you. And I deeply appreciate it.
So, even though I'm, you know, saying all these like, oh, yeah, I'm fine.
You know, like, I... Underneath that, I really do appreciate the call.
I hope you understand that. But the intern was showing some clear signs of distress and he doesn't have as much skin in the game as I do.
But I still said, like, listen, are you okay?
Because... It doesn't even have to be like from an empathetic point of view necessarily.
It could be like, you know, if you're too on tilt right now from this incident, you could be a danger to the lab.
No, but you're looking at this. Okay, I understand where you're coming from from this, but you're looking at this the wrong way.
Okay. So, Paul, you ended up managing the intern from a position of authority, right?
Could you repeat, rephrase the question?
I don't understand. Well, you have more longevity, more authority, more seniority in the business than the intern, right?
This is correct. Right. So for you to manage the intern's feelings was a mark of hierarchy, of you being much higher up in the hierarchy than he was.
I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm sure.
I'm sure. If someone was my equal and not my superior and that happened, then I think I would react the same way.
Like, are you okay? Kind of thing.
Am I wrong?
Well, I don't know. I don't know whether you're right or wrong.
But what I'm saying is that the example that you brought up was an example of – You and somebody that you could be kind to and your kindness mattered because they were in an inferior position to you in the hierarchy of the company.
And the kindness wouldn't matter if- No, no, hang on.
If your boss thought of you- As a subordinate, then he would be more likely to give you that kind of pat on the head or support or whatever, right?
But because he looks at you probably as more of an equal, he doesn't think you need it as much.
In the same way that if you have a kid, right?
So your kid draws their first lollipop stick person, you say, oh, that's great, right?
I don't have a child.
But if you did, right? You understand how this works with kids, right?
Is that the first time they do something, you're like, wow, that's great, right?
But if my nine-year-old is drawing something and she could do something better, I'm not going to go like, yay, good job or great, right?
Because I have more of a standard of equality when my daughter gets older and she's drawing her dragons or whatever, right?
I'll say, oh, maybe a little bit of shading here or whatever, right?
I mean, So, it is a mock of respect to not help someone manage their own emotions.
And my dad offered the same thought to me when I talked to him about this.
But it wasn't enough from your dad, right?
I wouldn't say it wasn't enough.
You're calling me. I am.
So, it wasn't enough.
Well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
May I respond to that?
Don't stop managing me.
You can say anything you want. You don't need to ask my permission.
I know. I just don't want to interrupt and I don't want to hog up the time.
I want to respect your show and the time of listeners.
No, no. I said don't manage me.
It's my job to manage the show and whether you're going too long or not, right?
Okay. So, my response to that is, you know, I was basically putting feelers out to like everybody.
When I wrote this, it had just happened recently and I just needed the support and I was just putting feelers out to get it from everywhere.
And so, if you, let's say, if Mike and Mike, thank you for arranging this.
I really, truly appreciate it.
If Mike had not arranged this, I think eventually with time and with family support, I'd be okay.
I really believe that.
I mean, we'd never know because I can't go back in time, but I really truly in my Heart of hearts believe that if you...
Okay, I'm not sure why you're telling me that you don't need the call.
Because if you don't need the call, I'll move on.
So, when I say to you that if you had gotten the...
Like, if your dad's saying the same thing as me, if it had really clicked and connected, right, then you wouldn't need the call.
And now when I point that out, you're saying, well, I'm not sure I even need the call anyway.
And it's like, okay, well, if you don't need the call, let's move on to something else, right?
Please, it's not that I don't need the call or that I don't appreciate the call.
I really, really appreciate the call.
But all I'm saying is that with time, I think time is an important component in all this.
May I ask you a personal question, Steph?
It's related.
How many times in your life or can you remember a vivid moment in your life where your fight or flight or freeze really kicked in?
Paul, the reason I can know exactly why your boss isn't asking you these questions is because you're a little exhausting to deal with.
In this realm. I'm sure you're fantastic and productive at work.
I've been doing this for 11 years, as you know, you're kind of exhausting to deal with in this area, which is probably why your boss doesn't want to get involved in it with you.
You're very avoidant, you're very jumpy, you're very controlling, you're very managey, right?
Yes, and I think my job kind of brings that out of me because of the dangers of the workplace.
I understand that about myself.
And you need to stop this if you want to rise more in your profession.
You are absolutely right.
Right? So, because you've...
You've told me to stop you if I think you're rambling.
And then when I do that, you seem to get a little bit upset and say, well, can I respond?
And it's like, dude, which is it?
And when I point out something, you say, oh, my dad already told me that.
And I said, well, but it didn't connect, which is why you still wanted more information.
You say, well, I mean, I would have just healed on my own anyway.
You're constantly dodging and moving the goalpost, right?
And I'm not saying you're doing this consciously.
I'm not saying that you're mean in any way, shape, or form about this.
But you have a fixed idea and you're not taking coaching or feedback.
And you get kind of...
I don't want to say pissy because that sounds like really hostile or mean or anything like that.
But it's the closest word if you can take it without it meaning like mean or anything like that.
But you do get kind of a little bit passive aggressive and hostile when...
I pointed out that it's not your boss's job to manage your feelings because it's an economic relationship.
You didn't like that at all.
And I pointed out that you didn't like it at all.
And then, no, no, no, I do. Right?
So you express these strong emotions.
And when I point them out, you say that you're not.
And that's kind of exhausting for people, right?
I can imagine, yes.
So then my question is, maybe it's not about your dad, maybe it's about your mom.
In terms of direct connection and just getting honest feedback from people, why is it so complicated?
Complicated for me to get direct and honest feedback?
For people to give you this kind of feedback, right?
Well, I, um, and this is something that my dad told me the other day that really struck a chord is that I've always been hard on myself.
Um, whenever I make a mistake or I am out competed by others, um, I tend to be very hard on myself and, um, but why are you hard on yourself?
I'm not sure. But according to my dad and the deep thought-provoking conversation that I had with him recently, I've been that way since I was a little boy.
There was a time when I couldn't cross the monkey bars.
You're dangling from your arms and you're trying to get from one side to the other.
Other kids could do it. I couldn't do it.
And I got so upset and angry that I just kept on doing it until my hands were bleeding with blisters.
Because... I don't know.
It's like an innate thing.
So you're self-attacking and you want your boss to dislodge you from attacking yourself with empathy?
Yes. I do.
So you almost burnt down his business and now you want him to service your emotional needs.
And again, this sounds like you're being mean.
You're not. I mean, you genuinely saved his building.
Like, if your boss was on the line, I'd be like, well, you can look at the building that got a little bit of fire damage, or you can look at the heroic employee who made a mistake and saved your entire building, right?
But self-attack, Paul, have you ever been around somebody who is very self-attacky?
I mean, other than yourself.
But, you know, have you been around people who are really self-attacky?
I would have to give that more thought.
No, you'd know. You'd know.
Because they'd be exhausting to deal with?
Well, they are kind of exhausting to deal with because it's like trying to have a conversation with someone who keeps punching themselves in the face.
You can't ever have a conversation with them because you keep getting interrupted by the fact that they're punching themselves in the face, right?
Exactly, yes. And so, the question is, How long has your father has known about this since you were a little boy?
He doesn't know the source of it.
Maybe it's genetic or maybe, well, who knows, right?
But maybe it's environmental, probably some combination of the two.
So what has he done to help you with this issue over the last couple of decades?
He's certainly pointed that out over and over again.
He answers the phone when I call you.
Pointed what out? You know, the self-attackiness sort of thing.
And he... No, but in terms of...
Sorry to interrupt.
But pointing out that you're self-attacking, has that solved the problem?
Well, I don't know if there's anything that's going to solve the problem.
Well, no. Hang on, hang on. So pointing out that you're self-attacking has not solved the problem.
I assume that as your father, he wants to help you to solve the problem.
And so... Given that what he has been doing for decades has not solved the problem, what else has he tried to help you with the problem?
What else has he tried to help with the problem?
Yeah. I'm not sure if he sees it as a...
I think he...
Well, he actually mentioned this on the phone with me.
He believes that it's more of an asset than a liability because it drives me to...
Achieve more and out-compete and get better in life.
Wait. Okay.
This is... Good God, man.
This is like... You're very good at this and you've got to make lesser people's heads just spin around like a top.
Okay. Because you're self-attacky to the point where your hands are bleeding and blistered as a kid because you want to cross the monkey bars.
And I say, has your father helped you with this?
And he's like, oh, you say yes.
He's pointed out many times, right?
Your father has pointed out many times that you excessively self-attack and it's a problem.
And then when I say, well, what else has he tried to help you with it given that this hasn't worked?
He's like, no, he said it's not a problem.
It's actually an asset.
Do you see how quickly you maneuver?
No, no, no, no, no. Please let me elaborate.
Now you understand you're just taking me in another goddamn direction here, man.
Do you understand the contradiction I just pointed out?
I do, but I want to...
Okay, then can we just deal with this contradiction before you take me off on some other place?
I'm dealing... No, no, just don't take me anywhere else, Paul.
This is the moment.
Because you need to see this contradiction you just gave me.
My father tried to help me with this problem.
And then you say, my father says it's not a problem, but a strength.
This is two contradictory statements.
And I can't let you drag me off somewhere else.
Because you need to look at these contradictory statements and figure out why you're jerking us both around unconsciously, admittedly, in this call.
It's a strength in the long run, but it can be dangerous in the short run in situations like this.
Now, you're just covering things up.
Because you said your father has tried to help you with this problem and now you're trying to recast it as a strength.
And then you're saying, well, there's different timeframes and it's like, come on, man.
This is why it's exhausting. If there's a medium between not being able to criticize yourself at all, which is being narcissistic and grandiose, and there's too much self-criticism, which can be paralyzing and annoying and manipulative, by the way.
Because if you attack yourself a lot, then you have to end up managing other people's criticism of you.
You have to end up trying to control them and manipulate them as you're trying to do with me in this conversation.
Not consciously. Fully understand that.
But you need your boss to pull your self-attack off you.
He's not doing it, and that's a problem for you.
I'm saying it's not his job to do it, right?
So earlier, Paul, when I said it's not your boss's job to fix this, you got really upset.
And the reason you got upset is because now you don't have an ally against your self-attack, right?
In other words, your boss isn't going to...
You can't find a way to manipulate your boss into pulling your self-attack off you.
Which is why you got kind of pissy when I sided with your boss on this issue.
Because now you actually have to deal with this self-attack, right?
Yes. And I don't want you to have this level of self-attack in your life.
Because it's going to distance you from people.
Because if you need people's help to pull off this demon of self-attack from your throat, you're not really free in your interactions with them.
Because you, especially if you're attacking yourself, you kind of have to pull them in as absolutely necessary allies in a desperate battle against your own self-attack.
You can't just deal with them as people because you need them as survival allies, so to speak.
Because this is the moment, Paul, where you can deal with this demon because you made a genuinely bad mistake.
Now, dealing with the self-attack is very important.
And listen, I sympathize with the self-attack.
I really do understand.
I mean, I didn't get good. Thank you.
I didn't get so good at what I do because I don't criticize myself or try to learn or try to do better or try to improve.
And wanting to improve is great, but the self-attack is paralyzing, right?
Yeah. I think self-criticism is probably a more...
I mean, attack in the event of a thing like this, then yeah, I'm beating myself up pretty hard.
But in general, yes, I'm very self-critical and...
When I make big mistakes like that, and not even that are life-threatening, but if I make big mistakes that cost the company time and things like that, I do take it very hard.
I do. No, but you see, here's the thing.
This is what you need to get out of this incident, is that you can turn this fucking fire on your self-attack.
See, right now, the self-attack has the fire and it's using it as a Balrog-style whip over your entire personality, which is unbearable, which is why you need your boss like Gandalf to save you from the demon.
But what I'm saying is, if you can use this fire in the building to burn down your self-attack demon, then you've turned the fire from a negative into a positive.
But if you let the fire strengthen your self-attack, that's the most critical thing, the most self-critical thing that you could end up doing.
Yes. Because you could turn this into a positive.
Oh, it's already become a positive in many ways.
Already. It has.
And I can elaborate if you'd like.
I don't think that I want to talk about the reasons you're not calling on the call.
No, it's not about the reasons I'm not calling.
I'm just saying that like, you know, this will never happen.
No, we're talking about a problem that this fire has given you and then talking to me about all the positives.
Is it just another way to distract me from the self-attack?
Okay. Okay. Back to the self-criticism.
Right. Is there anything you want to know more about it?
No, it sounds like you're disengaging from the conversation, to me.
Because you're getting all rubber bones on me now.
I'm sorry? You're getting all, you know, like, do you ever do this when you were a kid?
Somebody wants to pick you up, you don't want to go, you just go rubber bones, you just...
That's certainly not my intention.
I apologize if it was interpreted that way.
I very much want to remain...
How does your mom deal with self-criticism, with making mistakes?
I prefer not to answer that question.
All right. Well, then I'm going to move on to the next caller, but I certainly do appreciate it.
And listen, I perfectly respect that you don't want to talk about it, but if that's the one thing you don't want to talk about, then that's probably the one thing that will solve it.
And I perfectly respect that you don't want to, but I'm going to move on to the next caller.
Thank you. Thank you.
And I just want to say thank you so much for all the hard work that you do.
I truly appreciate it.
And again, it means the world that you took my call.
Thanks. Thank you. Alright, up next we have Michelle.
Michelle wrote in and said, A Streetcar Named Desire and The Taming of the Shrew are two stories that are often looked at as being sexist or exposing the patriarchy that has kept women down these many years.
I have a different take on these stories and I would like Stefan's thoughts on it.
I think a facet of these stories is that they are a warning to women, not so much about patriarchy but about toxic femininity and what realities might await those women that revel in it.
Why are these stories predominantly framed as sexist, while a story like Fifty Shades of Grey is seen as sexy?
That's from Michelle. Oh, Michelle, you're gonna lead me down a theater path, aren't you?
Oh, I am a woman after your own heart, Stefan.
I don't doubt it. You're bringing me some Shakespeare and Tennessee Williams.
God love you. It's beautiful.
Two of my favorite movies.
It was a great excuse to watch them again.
Oh, no kidding. Wait, wait, which streetcar?
Did you watch the Treat Williams one with Anne Margaret?
Did you watch the Vivian Leigh and Marlon Brando one?
Which one? Yes, yes.
Marlon Brando. Her last name, Vivian Leigh.
Vivian Leigh, yeah. She is Blanche Dubois.
So amazing. No, no. Tennessee Williams and my mother are Blanche Dubois.
But Vivian Leigh did a pretty good job as well.
And my grandmother-in-law is Blanche Dubois.
Oh, yeah. That show, that play has fascinated me since I read it as a teenager.
It has fascinated me since I read it as a teenager.
It is such an amazing play.
I agree. Oh, the dialogue is fantastic.
Oh, the themes. Do you know how he came up with the idea?
I don't know if you've ever read. I've read a whole biography of Tennessee Williams.
I don't know if you ever knew how he came up with the idea.
I don't.
I believe you've spoken about it briefly.
I think you said something about his mother and he's a closeted gay.
Well, no. His mother, that's the Glass Menagerie.
That's his mom directly.
But no, so he was, I think he was living in New Orleans, and he was a broke rider, and there was a streetcar that rattled up and down the streets of New Orleans, went past his window while he was riding.
And you know how streetcars, they have their destination on a little sign above the driver, right?
And one of them went to a place called Desire.
And then on the way back, it went to a place called Cemetery.
And that's...
Oh, and also, I think that Tennessee Williams knew a Stanley Kowalski.
I think he was actually named Stanley Kowalski when he was in the army.
So... Let's see.
Wow, I thought about divine inspiration.
Oh, yeah. No, that's something else.
And Tennessee Williams also, tragically, always feared that he would choke to death.
Do you know how he ended up dying? Don't tell me he choked to death.
He choked to death. Oh my gosh.
He choked to death.
As far as I remember it, he was trying to open a pill bottle with his mouth and then the pill lid got caught in his throat.
And he choked to death. And I also remember reading a novel.
Oh boy, this is many years ago.
Do not ask me how this novel ended up in my mother's house, on my mother's apartment.
But I remember reading a novel written by Tennessee Williams because I'd only ever read his plays.
And... The novel started...
And if I remember rightly, it was two gay men, and one of them was urinating on the other.
And I was just like, oh, dude, this is a long way from where you started.
Or maybe it isn't. Maybe he got into some cocaine or something.
So we won't get much into the story as a whole.
I mean, just very briefly, A Streetcar Named Desire.
It's about a neurotic.
I think he refers to her as neurotic woman who shows up out of nowhere at her sister's place.
And her sister is a fairly typical feminine woman.
She's married to a bit of a brute of a husband named Stanley Kowalski who Tennessee Williams describes as a gaudy seed bearer, which I always thought was a really great phrase and memorably played by the role originated with...
Marlon Brando. And I didn't get Brando until I saw that movie.
And I'm like, okay, now I get it.
Oh, yeah. Yes.
And Carl Moulton played the other guy.
Anyway, so the woman is appalled.
The neurotic older woman, the older sister is appalled at her sister's complacency and thinks that her husband is a brute and there's a lot of conflict and she tries to find some other guy who's going to take her out of this apartment.
But Stanley Kowalski, her sister's husband, finds out that Blanche Dubois, who's the woman, the neurotic woman, was basically a total whore back in her hometown and an alcoholic.
And he won't let his army buddy marry her because he doesn't want his army buddy to end up with this insane woman.
And long story short, She, the sister gives birth, Stella, the sister gives birth.
And Stanley Kowalski corners Blanche Dubois and rapes her.
And then Blanche Dubois goes insane and is taken away.
And I mean, I should probably do a whole show on this, but I just I just didn't understand.
I mean, I found the play fascinating insofar as Stanley Kowalski seems like a caricature of masculinity and Blanche Dubois seems like a caricature of femininity, but I never understood the rape.
I never understood the rape.
There's this famous line that Stanley Kowalski says to Blanche Dubois, who has been flirting with him and parading around him half nude and all that.
He says, you and me, we've had this date since the beginning.
That it's inevitable that he rapes her.
And I just remember, and I remember being so focused on this.
When I was in talk therapy, I said to my therapist, I said, I can't understand why he rapes her.
She's not attractive.
She's old, older.
She's kind of skinny and neurotic.
And she's the kind of woman who like her sister's pouring her a little soda and it spills over and she screams.
And the sister's like, your Coke spilled over.
Why are you screaming? It's a fundamental question I had about my own mom.
But he gets her out.
He wants her out. He wants her out.
Stanley Kowalski wants Blanche Dubois out of his house.
Because she's constantly causing trouble in his marriage.
Don't hang back with the brutes, she says all the time.
Although she is a brute, or as my English professor said when I was in college, she can't stand a peeled grape.
Like, sorry, she can't stand an unpeeled grape.
She says, I can't stand an unpeeled grape, but she sleeps with anything with a penis in her hometown.
But she can't stand an unpeeled grape.
Just insane stuff, right? So Stanley Kowalski finally gets her out of his house.
He's bought her a ticket back to where she's coming from.
He's going to make her go.
He's packing up her bags for her.
He's going to get her out. He's won.
This troublemaking, neurotic, crazy woman, he's getting her out.
And he's got a new son.
And his wife is staying with him.
Because he's really good in bed.
And he's fantastically good looking, at least according to how he's played.
So he's won. He's got the crazy woman out of his house.
And then he goes and rapes her. I said, why would he rape her?
He'd already won. Do you know what my therapist said?
She said, because Tennessee Williams lost with his mom.
I was like, whoa! You just blew my mind.
Really? Oh, yeah.
She was interesting.
She was pretty good. So that's the story.
Taming the Shrew is a play within a play, and it's about a guy who ends up marrying this woman who's a shrew, which basically means bitch, as far as I can understand it.
Just like a horrible, negative, hostile, difficult woman.
Or as Stanley Kowalski says, when he's trying to talk on the phone to a friend of his and glad to buy shrieking about something, and he just says, you'll have to speak up.
We got a noisy woman in the place.
It's just an amazing thing to say because he's not sitting there, oh, Blanche, is there anything you need?
He's like, yeah, we just got a noisy woman in the place.
And so the husband, in Taming of the Shrew, the husband, the woman is very fussy.
And so first what he does is he just, every time she says something mean, he interprets it as something kind and that just kind of short circuits her and gets her interested.
And then after he marries her, he says, well, you're so fussy.
You're so fussy. Nothing is good enough for you.
And so she orders some food and he says, this food is not fit for you to eat.
And he tosses it out.
And she wants some clothes.
He's like, this dress is not – you're so fussy and you're so perfect.
This dress is not good enough for you.
And he won't let her – so he won't let her eat.
He won't let her wear anything because she's – and eventually she – and he won't let her sleep.
And I mean, eventually she just becomes nicer.
I mean, long story short, it's well worth – Watching.
But yeah, the sexist thing.
The patriarchy. I've had my ramble, Michelle.
So tell me what your thoughts are about these two particular plays and how they serve what you're asking.
Okay. I'll try my best not to shotgun blast you with my ideas here.
No, please do. Please do.
Shotgun blast away. I tend to do that.
My husband's like, oh, slow down.
Okay. So much to unpack.
And I... I appreciate that maybe a lot of your listeners might not have seen these movies or the interpretations of these plays or read them.
They're excellent. Go read them, go watch them, especially the performances.
The Taming of the Shrew that has Elizabeth Taylor starling as the shrew, Katerina, and the Tennessee Williams version that we were just talking about with Marlon Brando.
Excellent. Okay, so...
As I said, these stories are often framed as just being sexist, right?
Like, by the end, like The Taming of the Shrew, they frame Katerina as though she's just a broken woman by the end, and I completely disagree with that.
She's nice! No, no, I don't even think, I don't even agree with that, really.
Okay. Okay.
So... By the end of the Taming of the Shrew, she respects Petruchio and she is nice to him.
And she understands, like, they're not, you know, she says, I see now that our swords are but sticks.
You know, we are a team together.
And when she, so, you know, at the end of the play, sorry.
So at the end of the play, there's her younger sister, Bianca, has gotten married.
There's a double wedding because one of Bianca's former suitors has gotten married to a widow.
At some point, there's like a little tiffy between Katerina and the widow, where the widow insults her and says she's a shrew.
So Katerina says, okay, the ladies are adjourning off to the powder room.
We're going to go do our thing. Guys do their things.
And while the ladies are away, the men in Petruchio have a little bet as to whose wife is the most obedient person.
And so they all make a bet for 4,000 crowns.
And so the first guy sends for Bianca, bring me my wife.
The servant goes and says, she says she's busy, she will not come.
And so the second guy sends for his wife and, you know, tell her I really need her to come right now.
And she says, come to me, I'm too busy.
And so the third, so Petruchio stands to his servant and says, tell my wife I command her to come to me.
And all, everybody starts laughing, including Katerina's father.
And away he goes.
And then he comes back, you know, like a clown, all like, oh no, I've been beaten.
And then he smiles. And then you hear, oh!
All the women are screeching, and here comes Katerina with the two ladies by their ears, you know, by their arms, dragging them to their husbands and chastises them.
So, to me, she's still a badass.
Like, she commands these women.
They still cower to her.
Everybody still cowers to her, except for her husband, Tertruchio.
Right. Right.
Yes, so...
So they frame it as though, like, I mean, I understand, you know, it's a play, it's exaggerated, it's a comedy, it's for its era.
So, of course, you know, when we see it, we go, oh, he's abusing her, he's starving her, he's...
No! Sorry to interrupt you, but this is the note that I had that I wanted to mention at this point.
Oh, go ahead, please. Okay, so...
Quick question, my dear.
Have you ever, ever, in a movie, seen a man, maybe, say, in the military, go through basic training and be yelled at and starved until he becomes better?
Oh, yeah. I filmed my old jacket.
Yep. Well, it's all over the place, right?
Officer and a gentleman, a soldier story.
I mean, it's everywhere. Riff off your...
What are they going to gouge out your eyes and skull fuck?
I mean, it's just monstrous, right?
Yeah. How many times have you seen a man be broken down and emerge stronger and better?
Almost every military movie.
Yeah, every single damn military movie, right?
But God forbid it happened to one woman in the history of Western literature.
It only happens to about 12 billion men a minute in art, but it happens to one woman.
It's patriarchy and sexism and...
Yeah, and that's an excellent point.
I really hadn't thought about it from that angle, because I thought, well, you know, he's not beating her.
He could have raped her. He didn't.
She's a nicer person, or at least a better wife afterwards.
Now, here's the thing, too.
If the roles had been reversed...
In other words, if it had been a lazy, good-for-nothing, drunken husband, and the woman had found a way to make him shape up, right?
Maybe she had denied him physical affection until he became a better person.
You know, like that play in ancient Greece where the women all decide to stop sleeping with the men until the men give up war.
Oh, look...
They're bullying their men, withholding from them the essentials of masculine life until they become better people.
So if the situation had been reversed and it was the woman who was withholding from the man until he became a better person, everyone would say, oh, she's so empowered.
How wonderful. She's really teaching him to be a better person.
Yes, it's harsh, but it's necessary, right?
But because it's a woman who's becoming a better person because a man is being strong and withholding from her, suddenly it's not just she's a bitch and he's trying to tame her.
It's like all men, all women, right?
This is like me saying, well, Lady Macbeth convinces Macbeth to murder someone, so all women are accomplices to murder.
Yeah, it's not like Shakespeare.
I mean, I don't understand how people can read The Taming of the Shrew and then they go, oh, Shakespeare was just sexist.
It's like, have you read his other plays?
Yeah, because one woman gets mistreated.
I don't know.
It's sort of like when I played Macbeth, the one thing I had a conversation with the director around was I said, okay, so Macbeth...
Has just come in from killing 500 peasants in one day with his sword, right?
And he's fine with that.
No problem with that. But you kill one king, and next thing you know, you can't sleep forever.
It's like, what about the other people he just killed?
So how do men do in Shakespeare's plays?
Good Lord. I mean, you've got a guy in King Lear getting his eyes gouged out.
You know, like, I mean... How do men...
How are men dealt with?
How do men suffer?
I mean, just look at Henry V. What is the butcher's pill, right?
What is the butcher's pill? Or Hank's Hank, as we used to call it in theater school, right?
Men are constantly disemboweled and blinded and fall off cliffs and are killed in wars and so on.
It's like, but one woman has some food withheld until she becomes a better person and suddenly it's all kinds of patriarchy and it's just like, oh man...
Oh, man. Yeah. She's horribly abusive.
She's so awful.
Like, you know, she beats her father.
She's yelling at him.
She's a psycho. Yeah, she chases her sister around with the whip and says, I will mar your face so that none look upon your beauty, you know.
Oh, she's like ISIS in a veil.
There's no question of that.
Right. And it's like, well, of course...
Explain. You know, like, again, when people say, well, she's this broken woman, like, she's not a woman in the beginning.
In the beginning, she was a spoiled 16-year-old brat.
Well, and the thing is, too, have you ever seen these stories?
You see them on Dr. Phil. I mean, sometimes it's real, or sometimes they're stories.
We're a vain, violent, ugly woman.
Maybe she's a teenager or whatever.
She's like beating up on her family.
She's throwing things through windows.
She's just like a monster.
What do they do? They take her to one of these remote places in Montana.
It always seems to be Montana.
And what do they do? Well, if she misbehaves, there are very strict rules.
She's sent to bed without dinner.
She's not given this. She's not given that.
Stuff is withheld from...
There's tough love, right?
Yes. And people think that's great.
But you show it in one Shakespeare play and suddenly, evil patriarchy.
Yes. Yes.
And again, like, I think part of why, you know, at least women today are feminazis, they see it as, oh, she's just broken in the end.
And like, I explain, like, that's kind of part of it.
She's not abusing women in the end.
He has taught her to stop abusing, at least with a whip on the face, women.
Right. Well, okay, she says in her great speech at the end, which is just wonderful, but there's like a part where, you know, she says about, you know, to be obedient to your husband's will, but she says his honest will, his honest will, which is like...
Not being obedient to a man like Anna and Christian Grey in the Fifty Shades books, but to be obedient to his honest will, because he's a good man.
He's a virtuous man who has earned it.
He will not lead you astray.
When she says, place your palm beneath your husband's foot, she's not saying, because he'll stamp on it and you should take it.
She's saying... To trust him, he will not do that, you know, because he's your partner.
It's like, yeah, like one of those falling backwards trust exercises is not because you want to get a concussion on the floor.
Yes, you trust that he's not going to do that.
He recognizes you as his partner.
You're his partner. And, you know, she gives the speech about, or in that speech, she says, you know, they toil in the fields and they, you know, brave the seas and the lands and, you know, the wild animals for us.
And for what? All they want is our love in return.
And like, that's very true in a lot of ways.
And it's not just that you can love them, but in loving them, You are being a partner.
You're taking care of the home.
You're making it so that they can return to a peaceful place so that they can go out and get the bacon for you.
Yeah. No, listen, I mean, this sort of reminds me of the Lady Macbeth thing as well, which is the woman who played Lady Macbeth.
She stayed in the acting profession as far as I know.
She gives seminars now. But if you look at Lady Macbeth, you have...
I mean, to me, just an evil woman, you know, full ELO evil woman.
Oh, no, no, that song's in my head.
But because Macbeth doesn't want to kill the guy, he's just like, oh, fine, if it'll shut you up, I'll stab him in the head or whatever, right?
Yes. But the number – so, of course, I did a lot of reading on Macbeth and the number of people who were like, well, you see, she doesn't have children.
Yeah. Lady Macbeth, she doesn't have children, so naturally she's a psychotic accomplice to regicide, right?
It's like, you know, I've known some childless women in my life.
They're not convincing their boyfriends to go whack some boss, right?
Or, you know, while I have to unsact my womb, I have to become like a man.
It's like, no. Women can be evil without becoming like men because even that thing is like, well, if every time a male character wanted to do something evil, he said, well, I better just become a woman.
Women would say, what are you talking about?
Men can be evil on their own.
And so with Lady Macbeth, it's like, she can just be evil on her own.
No! It's got to be because she's childless and because of this and because of that.
And she wants to become a man.
And like, it's just, I don't know.
It's, uh... Yeah, so...
Go on. Oh, sorry.
Yeah, so that makes me think of Blanche Dubois, okay?
So, like, you know, she's framed as this poor, innocent woman that's been trodden upon by all these men that have just used her and...
Bullshit! Bullshit!
From the... Women have no such thing as sexual lust.
There's no such thing as our selected women who really like to inhale of the meat sandwich.
I mean, this is like, she's a horny, loony woman, right?
You know what they say, crazy in the head, great in the bed, crazy in the bed, crazy in the head, crazy in the bed.
So yeah, she's just a needy, neurasthenic, neurotic, sex-hungry, crazy woman who has, I'm sure, destroyed a lot of families in her time.
Stanley Kowalski's family is not the first family that she has destroyed.
She slept with married men.
She slept with boyfriends.
She has destroyed, destroyed, destroyed.
She is a volcano, a Tasmanian devil of vaginal destruction.
Don't tell me a victim.
Yes. Yes.
Well, like, okay, so, for example, with the framing of her as a victim, so, like, there's this Simpsons episode where they do, like, Marge joins, like, a theater troupe, and she's going to be Blanche Dubois, and blah, blah, blah.
There's, like, a parallel between the stories.
But the actor...
The director is trying to get Marge to do where she breaks the bottle and attacks Stanley's scene.
And he says to her, oh, well, you've got to know that Blanche is this poor, horrible, delicate flower that has been trodden upon by, you know, all these horrible men and blah, blah, blah.
And like, that's how people see Blanche Dubois.
And it's like, how can you see her like that?
The moment she shows up...
Well, first she goes to her sister's house and her sister is out at the bowling alley with Stanley.
And so she's talking to the neighbors and she's like, oh dear, you know, how could my sister live in such a hovel?
Well, like the neighbor lives upstairs.
What's the first thing she says to her sister when she sees her?
Why, you just become as plump as a little old partridge now, haven't you?
And it's like, oh, you bitch.
Yeah. You bitch.
First thing you say to your happily married sister is she's gained a little weight.
Oh! Yes.
Nasty. And then she says, oh, but you haven't said what I look like.
Oh, I've... You know, because she wants compliments.
Tell me I'm beautiful still.
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
No, she is a monster.
I mean, she's like Glenn Close in slow motion, like the fatal attraction stuff.
And she works as hard as humanly possible to destroy...
The marriage between her sister and her sister's husband.
Oh, yeah. To destroy, just as she has destroyed so many marriages in the town she came from.
Marriages and youths, because if you remember later in the story, she reveals that she was sleeping with one of her pupils at the school, which is why she was fired.
And I was like, I didn't know they did that back then, too.
Jesus. Well, that's the funny thing, too, right?
Is that we don't really know how old...
The boy was that she slept with.
Right. Well, she said she's a pupil, so we're thinking high school.
And my hypothesis is that it is based on by what we see in the movie, because they cue the music.
There's a certain little tune that plays in her head every time she's thinking about like the students or the young boy that her first husband.
And like there's this little music that plays during those scenes.
And it cues up when she sees the little paper boy that's come to.
Oh, yeah.
This whole scene where this little boy.
No, it's a little boy.
He's like, I don't know.
He's like 16, 17.
He's like 16 or so.
Right.
Oh, boy.
Still to her.
So she's, what, she's like 40 or 45.
I don't know if her age is actually given.
Right. But she's totally cougar beheading this little boy.
Yes. And he's just like completely like, what the hell is happening?
Oh yeah. So she is literally trying to seduce, she's drunkenly trying to seduce a boy maybe 30 years younger than she is.
Mm-hmm. Who is, at least now, would definitely be underage, right?
Right, right.
Right. Monstrous.
Right. Oh, oh, also, her first husband killed himself.
Yes, because she said to him, you are weak and I despise you.
She verbally abused this guy.
She talked him into killing himself.
Yes, yes.
That's like, you understand, didn't that happen in Silence of the Lambs?
That Hannibal Lecter convinced a guy to hang himself in the next cell?
Yes. Mm-hmm.
She is like just creepy.
Creepy as all get up.
Like a complete, to me, a complete sociopath.
And she lies about everything.
She hides how much she drinks.
She hides her thought-based past.
I mean, she is just all over the place.
And she's trying to trick a guy into marrying her.
And you know she's going to chew him up like a day-old wiener as well.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
And Stanley knows that too.
That's part of the thing with Stanley.
I understand he is a brute.
He does beat his wife.
But he's not just wholly this monster, and of course they never are, and that is a sign of good writers.
He's a well-rounded character.
He has these great qualities too, right?
He knows what she is and he points, he shines this light so that his friend can see, so that he's not trapped.
And his friend, you know, has a sick and dying mother he's trying to take care of.
He doesn't need that crap.
And he's obviously a soft-hearted man that's easily manipulated.
So, you know, in that way, that's a virtuous quality to be able to say to your friend, tell him the truth, even though you know it's going to set you against your wife.
But yet, he's just framed as this, like, Neanderthal.
Well, I mean, I love this speech.
I won't do it justice, of course, because it's not my...
But this speech that she has about...
So Stanley Kowalski, yeah, he drank and he had his wife.
And that's no good, of course, right?
But here's the thing, though.
They have great makeup sex.
Oh, yeah. And that's something – this is Camille Paglia territory where she says, yes, it's terrible that wives get beaten.
But does anyone ever wonder whether maybe that just their kink, it turns them on?
I mean, it's a terrible thing to say.
But, you know, it certainly does seem to be the sexuality of this guy – Well, I mean, we talked about with the first caller, who was with this guy for eight years, basically because he's a 9.8 in terms of hotness, right?
Yeah. So, you know, go ahead.
Oh, I was just, along those lines, and even as being a female, not that, you know, I don't really have much sympathy for women that are with men that beat them and stick with them.
Like, you know, my mother was beaten by my father, and like, for me, growing up, seeing this stuff, and my dad beat his girlfriends, and he's like a lot like Stanley Kowalski in a lot of ways, I guess, and I just don't have sympathy for these women because, like, the first time he strikes you, you can leave. You can call the cops.
There are shelters for you.
There's no excuse to ever put up with that BS. And I just don't really have a lot of sympathy for it.
But, like, we do see that cycle with Stella in there because, like, you know, she runs up.
He beats her during, you know, they fight.
He beats her. The guys beat him, get him in the shower.
She runs upstairs to the neighbor, and she says, I'm never going back down there again.
But then his shirt's off.
Stella! Yeah, and oh my god, Marilyn Brando in that scene.
God, he was so hot.
And also his naked need for her too, because he goes from the dominant one hitting her.
Now she's the dominant one because his need is so intense for her.
Right. So Marlon Brando in that scene, he's like a 10.
He's smoking hot. He's ripped.
He's muscly. His shirt's ripped.
He's dripping wet from the water from the shower.
And he needs her so much.
And what woman can resist a man who needs her that much who looks like that?
Yes. And she says to Blanche the next day, oh, he was as gentle as a lamb, you know, like he's my puppy.
Puppy with teeth. So, yeah, I mean, she's obviously attracted to him for his abs and the great sex because that's what she talks about.
It's like, oh, we, you know, we had this great sex.
It was just like when we are on our honeymoon.
Yeah. Oh, and he also, he sells her on sex.
So Stanley Kowalski says to his wife, you know, we got to get your...
Yes. We got to get your sister out of here so we can go back to having great sex without having to be quiet.
Yes, remember what it was like with the light.
No, go ahead. Sorry. Oh, that's what...
No, I'm sorry. Just quoting. Go ahead.
So this is the speech that I remember just was fascinating.
And again, I won't do it justice, but something like this.
So this is Blash Dubois talking to her sister about Stanley Kowalski after there's this disastrous poker night and after he hits her and then there's this great makeup sex and so on.
And she is talking to her sister about her sister's husband.
Now, I can't remember, do we know if, or does she know that she's pregnant as yet?
Oh yes, she says so I think at the end of this, right Michelle?
Yeah, she didn't tell...
Stella doesn't tell Blanche, but she does know.
I think that's part of the whole, like, you're a plump little bird in the beginning.
I think that's kind of a hint of that.
Okay, so this is what Blanche Dubois says to her sister about her sister's husband when her sister is pregnant.
She says, he acts like an animal, has an animal's habits, eats like one, moves like one, talks like one.
There's even something... Sub-human, something not quite to the stage of humanity yet.
Yes, something ape-like about him, like one of those pictures I've seen in anthropological studies.
Thousands and thousands of years have passed him right by, and there he is, Stanley Kowalski, survivor of the Stone Age, bearing the raw meat home from the kill in the jungle, and you!
You here waiting for him.
Maybe he'll strike you or maybe grunt and kiss you.
That is, if kisses have been discovered yet.
Night falls and the other apes gather there in front of the cave all grunting like him and swilling and gnawing and hulking.
His poker night.
You call it this party of apes.
Somebody growls.
Some creature snatches at something.
The fight is on! God, maybe we are a long way from being made in God's image, but Stella, my sister, there has been some progress since then.
Such things as art, as poetry and music, such kinds of new light have come into the world since then.
In some kinds of people, tenderer feelings have had some little beginning.
That we have got to make grow and cling to and hold as our flag in this dark march towards whatever it is we're approaching.
Don't hang back with the brutes!
It's an amazing speech.
And so incredibly sadistic and destructive.
Because here's the thing.
She's talking about all this art and poetry and shit, and she's fucked everything on two legs in her hometown.
She's like, well, we've got art and we've got poetry.
It's like, you can't even tie up your own shoelaces of that being mounted voluntarily, right?
Yes. Ah, so destructive.
This is the verbal abuse that is so powerful in what Blanche Dubois does.
Yeah, and she constantly is calling him a Polak, which, you know, it's, I think, said in the 1930s or 40s.
It's the N word for Polish people. Exactly.
And he gives this great, like, he thumps the table and he says, don't you ever call me a Polak again.
I'm a Polar, the Polish, and I'm an American.
I was born here, and this is the greatest country, and don't you ever call me that again.
And like, yeah, that's a great speech.
Can you wonder why he hates her?
Oh, yeah. No, she is absolutely wicked.
When it comes to all of this.
And who on earth would want this monster in your house?
And then you can also see that she's squandered what little wealth she had.
What's going to happen next?
They're already kind of at the end of their rope when it comes to poverty.
Yeah, I am not a Polack.
People from Poland are Poles, not Polacks.
But what I am is a 100% American, born and raised in the greatest country on earth and as proud as hell of it.
So don't ever call me a Polack.
I mean, that's the kind of assertiveness that, you know, she's, oh, well, you know, I mean, then she just worms her way around and tries to undo the marriage from the back and...
And what the hell was Stella supposed to do?
Blanche Dubois says, well, don't hang back with the brutes.
But Blanche has no husband.
She has no children. She has no future.
She has no career. She's basically a child sex predator.
Now, okay, it's a rough marriage, but she sure as hell seems to love and is devoted to her husband.
He's devoted as hell to her.
There's no hint of infidelity or anything.
Okay, the rape, but the rape is a whole other thing.
I mean, we can talk about that in a sec.
But she's got a future.
Stella has a future.
She has a marriage. She has a future.
What does Blanche got? She's got nothing.
She's got a husband she talked into killing himself.
She's got all of these marriages she's destroyed.
She's got a whole town that hates her.
And she preys upon boys for her sexual satisfaction.
She's a complete monster.
Yes, I completely agree.
I agree. And I just, I can't understand why people see her as a victim.
Well, I mean, she's the closest thing to a gay character you could have had at the time, right?
I mean, before that. Sorry?
Sorry. I meant before the rape.
Yes. Okay. So let's talk about that because that to me has always been incomprehensible.
He's got her out. He's totally won.
He's got her out. He's going to get back his life.
He's going to be a father. He's thrilled to be a father.
And then he rapes her.
And that has never made any sense to me.
That's one of the few things in Tennessee Williams where I just say, bullshit.
That's just something for a big dramatic moment.
Okay, can I give you my hypothesis on that?
Yeah, yeah, please. If you could explain this to me, I'll finally sleep well.
It's been bothering me for 35 years.
Okay, come on. Okay, I will do my best.
Now, keeping in mind that I have known somebody that's a lot like Stanley Kowalski.
Wait, you don't mean me, do you?
No, no, no, no.
Oh, fine. I'll put my shirt back on.
All right, go on. No, don't do that.
I like the way your voice went up at that point.
No, don't do that. Hey, I saw your stick, hex, and hammer where you had the jacket with no shirt.
I was like, ooh. I've been benching.
I've been benching. Okay, so my hypothesis as to why Stanley rapes her is...
Two reasons. Okay.
For the character, it's about humiliating her.
And for the story, it's about showing something very important.
So... Which is at the end, nobody really knows if it's true or not.
They don't know if they should believe her if she was raped or not because she lies so fucking much.
Everybody knows she's this huge liar.
So they can't decide, did he or did he not do it?
And they have their suspicions and some individuals lean towards yes or no, but nobody really knows and that's because she's a liar.
So, story-wise, I think that's why that's there.
Now, as to why he rapes her and why it's about humiliation, she's come into his house, set his wife against him, caused a lot of problems, nearly took down one of his friends, and has insulted him and drank his booze the whole summer long.
I think it's about humiliating her.
Now, he comes and he confronts her.
You know, it's after the birthday party.
She's been given her bus ticket home.
Stella goes into labor.
He takes her to the hospital.
He comes home and he's said, oh, let's bury the hatchet.
Oh, he finds her. I'm sorry.
He comes home and he finds her all dressed up in full regalia.
Well, she's insane at this point.
Yes. She's drunk to the point.
It seems to be a psychosis insofar as...
She's drunk, she's insane, because, as you say, he's just taken away her future, right?
So she's imagining that she's in some high-class party surrounded by all of these men who worship.
She's gone into complete megalomaniacal delusion land, and he won't have any of it.
Right. Let me vest my head upon your weary shoulder, dear sir, and all that stuff.
Yes. You can see from that acting, you know, she's pretending like she's 16 again, that she's been this way her whole life.
And she also makes up lies.
She's saying, oh no, my old friend, the oil tycoon, it says he's going to wire me to travel to the Caribbean.
And oh, the ex-boyfriend, Mitch, oh, he returned to beg forgiveness.
And he's like, no, no, he didn't.
I just came from there.
He is not... You are lying.
Right. And I think that's what the rape is about.
Because she's in this delusional fantasy.
And, you know, so Mitch, you know, who is his friend still, she's insulting him by saying, oh, he's begged for my forgiveness, blah, blah, blah.
And then she says, oh, this oil tycoon has written to me and we're going on a cruise in the Caribbean on his yacht.
So she's in this full delusion.
So I think what he wants to do is...
Break it completely and knock her down to the point where it's like he's rubbing her nose in her poo on the carpet.
That's what he's doing. And this is what the frustrating thing is, is that she's crazy, but he's going to jam her on a bus ticket.
He's got a bus ticket for her.
He bought her a present, right?
Yeah, I bought you a present. It's a bus ticket back to the hellhole you crawled out of, right?
So he can just pick her up and take her to the bus station.
And I did because, you know, my mother, as I've talked about, I mean, not much in general, but she would just make stuff up all the time, just like whatever she wanted.
I mean, there's a reason why this play has fascinated me for so long.
And I loved that Stanley is just the no bullshit guy.
Like, no, you're lying about this.
You're lying about this. You're lying about this.
You're faking about this. And there's a great...
line where he says, there isn't a damn thing but imagination and lies and tricks.
I've been on to you from the start.
Not once did you pull the wool over my eyes.
That clear-sightedness, this capacity to look at A woman, in this case, it's a woman who's dysfunctional, and see her for who she is without sentimentality, without white knighting, right?
Without, I mean, his friend, Mitch, the guy who's going to marry her, he's like, oh, I'm going to save you because you're clearly unhappy, you know?
And she's like, oh, the music always stops with the gunshot of my first husband.
Like, just nuts, right?
But he's like, I'm going to run. And Stanley is like, no, no, no, no, no.
Do not white knight this woman.
She is poison on stick legs, right?
Right. Yes. The fact that she just continually compulsively lies and he's like, nope, lie.
No lie. Never did I believe you.
I said this on a show a little while back ago when she bats her eyes at him at the beginning of the play and she says, do you think it's ever possible that I was once considered to be attractive?
He's like, I don't go for all of that complimenting women stuff.
I never met a woman who didn't know how attractive she was or not and a lot of them give themselves credit for a lot more than they actually have.
And just this unwillingness to play these games.
He's willing to be a man and the non-white...
Because I grew up, you know, this is like white knight cuck planet in the West, right?
Women are always victims.
It's always evil patriarchy.
We've got to save them from themselves.
And, you know, like the choice is now murdering babies.
And, you know, like, I mean, this is white knighting stuff.
Can you imagine... The Taming of the Shrew in the modern world.
She divorces him.
She takes him for half she's got and accuses him of hitting her and not giving her food and he goes to jail.
Play's over and she's not cured.
So this play in particular where it's like you've got this manipulative, horrible, hyper-sexualized, crazy woman and he's just like lies, lies, lies.
Just doesn't white knight her at all.
And that's incredible. So you think he's trying to purify the house for his child?
No, no, no.
Not exactly purifying, because like you said, you know, he can just stick her on the bus.
It's about, well, like I said, it's about humiliating her.
But why does he need to humiliate her?
He's one! Yes, but that's not enough, right?
He's won, but it's not enough because here she is.
He comes home after he's given her that ticket.
He's won, but she is still in this delusional fucking fantasy.
I think it's just kind of the last straw.
He's just like, oh, I'm going to break this like that.
But he's a very volatile man.
He's high in aggressiveness.
It's also kind of a pride thing in a way, too, right?
Like, again, she's been denigrating him this whole time, nearly set his wife against him.
Oh, so this is the rape as...
Sorry to interrupt you. I apologize for that.
But this is the idea of...
And some feminists talk about this, and it's always been a very interesting idea to me, and one I've never discounted, Michelle.
But it's the idea that this is rape.
It's nothing to do with sexual desire.
It is merely the assertion of power and dominance.
I'm not sure if it's nothing, but at least that's got to be part of it.
Part of it is assertion, dominance, subjugation, and humiliation.
Part of it is a sexual need or whatever you'd call that.
I think a lot with rape has to do with the dominance of it, right?
You're forcing somebody to do something they don't want to do.
You have control. You are in power over them.
Now, Stella's always been around to defend Blanche constantly.
But now Stella's gone.
She's at the hospital.
Blanche is completely defenseless.
So I don't mean it like he's picking on her or that he would just run around and rape anybody.
I think this particular woman has...
pushed him to that.
It's not that it's an excuse.
I'm not really sure how to word it.
Well, yeah, I mean, I've always also seen it as one thing that a lot of people who don't write stories and plays is like, how the hell do you end this damn thing?
You know, you need the big climactic, sorry, wrong word, the big climactic moment.
How do you end this?
Now, of course, you know, this particular scene and so on is, I don't know.
And I suppose because Blanche reminds me so much of my mom, that for me, the idea like, okay, have sex with your mom.
You know, like, so I'm not able to look at this in a particularly objective way.
But I don't think that...
Matters in terms of, Blanche is not her type, right?
Ah, this is what's always bothered me, is that he is sexually attracted to his wife.
His wife is not at all like Blanche.
And so, if he, it's the hate sex thing that I've never, I've never, I hate you so much, let's have sex.
Like, I've never understood that foundationally.
Yeah. I've never understood that.
And I know this is like a big thing in art and it's a big thing in like, oh, I hate that person so much.
You know, like the woman who slaps the man and then kisses him.
What is wrong with you people?
If you really dislike someone, why would you want to be in the same room with them, let alone in the same bed?
And so this idea that...
This idea that...
Stanley Kowalski despises this woman, hates this woman, knows how vicious and destructive and manipulative she is, and then just wants to have sex with her.
It just never struck me as like, what?
It makes no sense to me at all.
Unless it's wish fulfillment.
Tennessee Williams said, I am Blanche Dubois.
So maybe he wanted to have sex with the guy named Stanley Kowalski who was in the army with him.
I don't know, but it just never has made sense to me in the story.
I guess that could very well be part of it.
I don't know if you've ever watched documentaries about crime, where they talk about crime statistics or trying to figure out why people commit certain crimes.
That's often one of the...
So when you look at a serial rapist, for example, you find that when they're children, they were often raped themselves.
And again, it's trying to reclaim that power that was lost back then and trying to do that to someone else to make you feel better about what happened to you.
So I'm not saying that Stanley Kowalski is necessarily a rape victim, but it's...
Again, something along those lines of, like, that same wanting to dominate somebody.
But here's the thing.
So, he is, in many ways, a positive male character.
I mean, look, I understand.
For the time, he's a positive male character.
And what bothers me is that somebody...
Like, I... In reading this play, like, my heart was pounding.
My... My hands were sweating and I'm like, oh my God, I'm finally seeing someone stand up to a crazy neurotic woman.
So I grew up without a father with a crazy neurotic Blanche DuBois as a mom, right?
So for me, I'm reading this like, this is like meat and drink to me.
This is like, he's a superhero.
He's got powers, right?
He can just actually speak the truth to a woman who's crazy and he's not getting his head beaten against the door, right?
So for me, it was like, Do you know what I mean?
I was like, that's incredible!
Yes, I do. And then this guy, he's a rapist.
Daddy is a rapist.
And I'm like, I can't get there.
I can't get there.
Because if he was such a terrible guy, I mean...
I don't know. Now, I do believe, I do believe what you were saying earlier, which is that, you know, maybe this famous scene, what is it, scene 10 or whatever, Maybe this famous scene is just the story that's told to Stella the next day.
He raped me because she's just lies about everyone and everything all the time.
She simply cannot open her mouth or process oxygen without expelling carbon dioxide and lies, right?
Destructive lies, as destructive as humanly possible.
So to me, after he wins and he's kicking her out, the fact that she would make up a lie that he raped her, well, that makes sense to me because that's revenge, right?
Right. That's her vengeance.
She says, hey, you destroy my future by getting rid of my boyfriend?
Fine. I'll get rid of your future by accusing you of rape.
And just really quick in there, the rape is implied, right?
Yeah, but it's a little bit more than implied.
When he picks up this woman who's threatened to stab him in the face and carries her to bed, it's...
Yeah, but okay, I would say you could also theoretically go, well, maybe he just tossed her on the bed and went off and drank.
Agreed. But yeah, I'm pretty sure that it is meant to be, but yes, it is rape.
Or, you know, maybe it's a whole Fifty Shades of Grey shit, right?
Yeah, well, after I threatened to stab you in the face with a broken bottle, oh, my juices are flowing.
Well, there's a gift for someone.
Oh, right. I think during that fight, you know, because he says, oh, you've been, you know, flaunting and flirting this whole time.
Well, maybe you're attracted to me.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. No, it's...
Or maybe it's just...
Maybe Tennessee Williams was raped.
And as Blanche Dubois, he's just...
Like, maybe it's... There's an organic story and then there's just something that happened.
I don't know. I mean, this is all theoretical, right?
Yeah. Well, no, yeah, I completely agree.
It's like when Jordan Peterson talks about Pinocchio or the Bible.
When you look at these stories, you have to remember that they're like a cut diamond.
There's multiple facets.
There's what the author intended.
There's all the influences that author's had in her life, what they don't intend but still makes it on the page, what people glean out of it.
There's all sorts of ways to look at it, so I don't think that's incorrect at all.
Right. So, I don't know that we can necessarily get to – I mean, you can say it wasn't rape and so on.
I mean, given the time – No, no, I think it was.
Yeah, given the time, you couldn't really show that on stage or whatever, right?
Yes, right, right.
Yeah, anyway, that's the one part that – I don't know.
Like, when you've won, you walk away.
I mean, like, why? But not if you're petty.
Not if you're a petty person.
Winning is not enough if you're a petty person.
You gotta completely humiliate them on top of it.
No, no, no. I don't know. I mean, you can say if a petty person, but where is the indication?
Like, so Stanley Kowalski, he tells the truth.
He resists female manipulation.
Oh, I gotta tell you, man.
You know, as a guy who grew up surrounded by single moms, Michelle, like seeing a man who can resist female manipulation, I gotta tell you, didn't really see that from my mom's boyfriends.
And so, where is the indication that he's petty?
He stands up for his friend.
He was brave in the war.
He is a tough guy.
He, you know, he...
Drinks too much, but he's just, he's a man's man, certainly back in the days in the 50s.
So where is the evidence that he's this kind of petty person who wants to engage with someone he's already beaten?
You know, this to me would be like, you know what it's like?
It's like he's in a fistfight.
This would be like he's in a fistfight, and there is honor in a fistfight, especially among military men.
Okay, you'll fight hard.
But if you win, then you stop, right?
So to me, it would be like he's in a fistfight, and Stanley Kowalski is in a fistfight, and he punches the guy, knocks the guy out, and then just keeps punching him insanely, right?
Okay, so I would say there, I think there are kind of demonstrations of that.
So, for example, when he gives her the bus ticket, he says, oh, I got you a gift.
He's presenting it like a birthday gift, and then she opens it, and she sees it's the ticket.
Now, you could look at that and be like, well, that was pretty petty, because even Stella goes, well, you didn't have to do it like that, right?
You know, granted, you're fine if you buy the ticket, but you didn't have to present it to her as though it's a present, excuse me.
Well, yeah, no, no, no.
I agree with you. I agree with that analysis.
But let's say that some white guy keeps calling a black guy the N-word.
Do you then really say to the black guy who retaliates, well, you didn't have to do it that way.
And, you know, the fact that she continually insults him while drinking up all of his liquor and attempting to destroy the life of one of his army buddies, and that kind of bond is very, very important.
He says, listen, we were in the war together.
We were in the army together. I'm lucky to get...
Swallowed up by this monster.
And so he acts in a pretty noble and productive and positive and honorable way.
And she abuses his hospitality, drinks up all of his liquor, tries to destroy his marriage, tries to seduce children in his apartment, tries to destroy the life of his war buddy.
And I think that he's actually kind of restrained in that all he does is give her a joke present with a ticket out of there.
I mean, that's... Yes, I actually do agree with you about that.
But I can also see what Stella means.
But, okay, beyond that, I would say the way he deals with Stella in a lot of ways is petty, too.
Now, again, like, well, you know, she is choosing her sister over him.
However, he's a big, violent man, and she is a pregnant woman.
And so, for example, right before the ticket...
I think it's right before that happens.
Or right afterwards. I'm sorry.
It's right afterwards. Okay, so he's eating his chicken.
He's being all slobby. And then he's like, oh, I'm going to go bowling.
And Stella's like, you, you know, Brute, you clear your plate, blah, blah, blah.
So then he just smashes his hand into the plate and throws it across the room.
And then he grabs his cup and he throws it across the room.
And he says, I'm all cleaned up.
Would you like me to take your plate too?
And she's like... You know, cowering the whole time.
I love the way Brandon does that in the movie, by the way, because I would have yelled it because I'm an over-actor.
But he's just like, hey, I've finished my plate.
Do you want me to get your plate too? Oh, yes.
Yes, it was beautiful. But, like, again, I could see why he would act that way.
You know, I understand he's irritated with Stella, too, for taking her sister's thing.
But, like, she's a pregnant woman and, like, you're sitting there, like, freaking her out.
Like, there's no need to act like that.
Well, no, see, I don't agree with the throwing stuff.
And this could be a male-female thing, as I pointed out.
We can all be delightfully incomprehensible to each other.
But I'll tell you this, this is a male territory thing, right?
Because Blanche is moving in on his territory, and this is before.
He's actually one at getting her out.
And her contempt for him is infecting his wife.
Yes. So Blanche is infecting his wife and turning his wife against him.
And that is a direct threat to his entire territory.
So the fact that he throws a plate or two, it's like, yeah.
Again, I'm not saying I agree with the plate throwing and all of that, but the casual assertiveness is like, you know, back off.
Do not insult me in my own house, just because you've got some neurotic.
Plus, remember, this time, he knows a lot more.
About Blanche Dubois than her sister does, right?
So he knows just how hypocritical she's being.
So of course, it's even more disgusting for him because he's in possession of just how horrible a human being.
He's in possession of that knowledge, how horrible a human being Blanche Dubois is at that point, which his wife is not.
At that point, he had told her before the dinner started that he had found this stuff out, but she was still kind of in denial at that point.
Oh, yeah. Sorry about that. Got my timeline a little off.
Yeah, yeah. It's easy to do.
But no, I'd say, okay, I agree with you then, that without those two, he's, I mean, yeah.
He takes her in. He takes this crazy woman in.
He gives her a place to stay.
He gives her food. He gives her, like, she doesn't work.
He's paying her bills.
And she's just chewing at him.
You know, don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Right. Right.
So he's pretty generous with her.
Yeah, no, I agree. Okay, so I would think you're – then I have to say that you're right.
There isn't really a good display of showing us that he's a petty person.
So that could either – that makes it either bad writing on Tennessee Williams' part or propaganda.
Yeah, I think it would be very tough for the world to accept a strong man pushing back and succeeding against a destructive and neurotic woman.
You think even at the time when the play came out?
Well, I'm trying to think.
Okay, so I'm thinking about movies like, oh, what was it?
The Amazon Queen or like Humphrey Bogart and Catherine Hepburn.
But that's a bit more of a battle of equals.
I'm sorry? The African Queen.
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it's been a while since I've seen that, but I remember just how powerful that was for me, that that Pushing back against female craziness, right?
And those two plays, the two plays that you brought up, Michelle, they are plays about pushing back against female craziness.
We would say inelegantly, or we may say immorally, but given the sort of standards of the time, these are two powerful stories about crazy, abusive, destructive women being contained by Often over-assertive masculinity.
But of course, it's funny because the feminists who complain about the patriarchy and complain about these plays don't seem to have any problem when it happens times a thousand in the Muslim world.
God, yeah.
I am so ashamed of these women.
It's not your. It's not you.
It's like me being ashamed of male communists.
I don't know. But yeah, you know, it might be time.
I think every five or ten years I'll either read or watch that play.
But I really do appreciate getting the chance to theater geek out about it because it is certainly a very powerful play for me and gave me some real strength in dealing with my mom.
Ah. I would say...
Minus Act 10. Sorry.
Well, you'd say, like, that one resonated for you, and I'd certainly see why.
For me, The Taming of the Shoe resonated for me.
I read that in high school in a Shakespeare class, and I just loved it, and, like, I identify a lot with Katarina in a lot of ways.
Like, if you compare A Streetcar Named Desire...
With something like A Long Day's Journey Into Night, where the female madness goes unchallenged and unopposed, and the men all lose to it.
That, to me, is a much more scary play.
And that play, I don't know if it's an amazing play to watch, but Eugene O'Neill, the writer of that play, well, first of all, he cast himself as the dead person in the play, right?
There are two children. One was stillborn.
He gives himself... He gives his own name to the stillborn, but that play was so agonizing for him to write that he demanded that it not be performed until at least 10 years after his death.
Which I think it was stuck to.
It's about his mother's morphine addiction and, oh, just a mess.
I'll have to see it.
I haven't read it yet. Wow.
All right. Well, thank you.
Is there anything you wanted to add?
I hope I didn't completely blow away your contribution because, I mean, it's a fantastic topic.
Oh, no worries. Well, we hadn't really gotten into how that compared to why these stories are seen as sexist, but yet a story like Fifty Shades of Grey is lauded.
But I do understand we have been on the phone for a while.
No, no, but it's for the simple reason that Stanley Kowalski doesn't have enough helicopters.
Or abs. No, he's got abs, I guess.
But yeah, Stanley Kowalski is not wealthy.
And therefore, his abuse is not titillating.
But a wealthy man's abuse in Fifty Shades of Grey style is like, yeah, you can beat me if you have a helicopter.
But if you don't, you're just a pig.
Oh, my gosh. It's not like really all it comes down to.
Because like, to me...
I did watch a couple of the movies and read some really great reviews about them.
This Christian Grey character is like, is nothing like these other men that we've been talking about.
Like, he's a stalker.
He stalks her.
He controls her behavior.
We talk about Petruchio and the taming of the show.
He didn't control Catherine.
He gave her consequences to her behaviors.
But this Christian Grey character is just like, you're 21, but I don't want you to drink.
You have to eat peas, no carrots.
It's just weird, bizarre.
I don't understand. Well, if I were very cynical, what I would say...
Michelle, is that Fifty Shades of Grey was promoted in order to put the final nail in the coffin of gender relations in the West.
Because that you can be, I mean, the girl is a loser.
Yes! She's a complete retard.
She can't even show up on time.
She trips when walking into Christian Grey's office.
I mean, she's always portrayed this way.
Like Meg Ryan used to do it now, I guess, as Dakota Fanning or whatever her name is.
Dakota Johnson.
Sorry, Dakota Fanning is another actress.
But... This pigtails and oopsie, you know, like innocently sucking on a pencil.
Like, you don't know. It's half pedophilia, unfortunately, the entire story.
So she's a loser. I mean, she's not successful.
She works in a hardware store.
Yeah, because, you know... Well, I guess you do see.
I worked with a woman or two in a hardware store.
But... She's kind of a loser.
And what happens now is this massively wealthy guy who never seems to do an actual day's work, who, you know, just becomes obsessed with her because she's just...
So what?
Who knows, right? Now, what kind of realistic standard is this?
Someone who works in a hardware store is going to have some multi-billionaire obsessing over her and demanding that she sign contracts that allow him to, you know...
And the sex is pretty vanilla anyway, like...
I like a little more kink in my kink, thank you very much.
Right, I couldn't understand how people were like, oh, this story, it's so kinky, it's so...
No, it's tame and lame, like, oh my god, no, it's not.
Yeah, I mean, if you've read the story of O or anything about the Maquis de Sade, it's like, sorry, this is kind of vanilla.
And so, what it does is create ridiculous expectations on the part of women.
And what it also does is it creates, like, huge levels of contempt on the part of men for women.
Because it's not a guilty secret.
It's not a guilty pleasure. Like, openly read, openly adored, openly admired.
And it's like, so this is – we finally lifted the lid on – we broke the code, boys.
We lifted the lid on female sexuality.
And it's basically, I'm a whore who will let you beat me if you have enough money.
This is the great secret.
You know, like Freud, what do women want?
Helicopters and beatings with money.
That's what it comes down to.
And to reform the bad boy.
Yes, well, that's part of it, right?
So this is a badly written version of the female power fantasy.
The female power fantasy is to get the guy who's the brute that will bring you the bacon and is gentle to you, but rough to the world.
And so, like, it's supposed to be that story, but, like, she's a moron.
He's a fucking psycho.
Yeah. And he's rich.
But it's like, it's supposed to be like, oh, she tamed this beast of a man.
But like, not really.
It's poorly written. And it's just he like, brainwashes her.
And she doesn't even like being a submissive to him.
But yet she just goes along with it.
And they don't they don't have a single fucking conversation about anything.
No, it's all about sex.
Even when they fight, she's like, oh, if he touches me, I'll just give in.
Oh, yeah, no. And they talk about nothing.
Nothing! Other than, you know, what is my safe word?
You know, which apparently is vanilla.
And then you said really quick, you said earlier, like, it's a half-pitophilic story.
And I completely agree, because, like, in the third book, you know, at the end of it, she's pregnant or whatever.
And, like, there's a sex scene, and then she's like, oh, the baby must like sex, too, because it's dancing in my belly.
It's like... What? Oh, that's just creepy.
And the other thing too, it's a way of disarming women from legitimately dangerous situations.
I don't know if it's paving the way for radical Islam or something, but it's saying to women, all right, he's a stalker, but it might still work out.
All right, he's into beating you, but it might still work out.
Oh, his last girlfriend is chasing everyone around with a gun, but it might still work out.
Oh, he's completely emotionally unavailable, but it might still work out.
These are all warning signs, any one of which would be like run screaming in the opposite direction, right?
But it's a way of disarming women's basic sense of self-protection, right?
Yeah, he's a sadistic psychopath who wants to beat you in his dungeon, but it might still work out.
It's like, what are you telling women this stuff?
Yes, yes. It's like, to me, if you want to read a story and get more out of it as a woman, go read The Taming of the Shrew.
Yeah, no, it's like putting out a children's book that says, Strangers with Freddy Krueger masks always have the best candy.
Be sure you get into their windowless fans, kids.
It's going to be great.
And you put that book out and people are like, why would you tell kids that?
And you put this shit out. It's like, why would you tell women that this could possibly work out?
I mean, the only way this is going to work out is if you enjoy being fed into a wood chipper by your ass.
Yeah, well, like you were saying to the lady in the first caller, where you were talking about how if you know or you feel that he's just using you for sex, you're going to come to resent it.
And it's the same with this character.
Of course, you don't see it. But she eventually, if she were a real person, would resent him for just using her as a piece of ass to stick his dick in and beat once in a while.
Also, he may end up resenting her for only letting him do said piece of assery because he's very, very rich.
Yes, yes, that's right, because she's only with him for that.
Yeah, good point. You cast Danny DeVito and give him a job at Starbucks, and suddenly the movie looks a whole lot different now, doesn't it?
Yes, one of the reviews I read said, you know, picture Christian Gay looking at George Costanza from Seinfeld.
And would you still say he's sexy?
No. No, and the fantasy as well that a man who's accumulated a lot of money is also going to accumulate a lot of abs.
I'm sorry. Making a lot of money these days generally involves sitting down, not doing 4,000 sit-ups in the morning, and therefore the idea that you want a lot of money and you want a great body, well, I'm sorry, it's just not...
You know, I saw a movie called The Fisher King many years ago.
It's not a great movie, but I remember there was one scene in it where there was this impossibly beautiful blonde woman reading Nietzsche.
And I was just like, oh! You know, it's like, no, no, it's not impossible, of course, right?
But, you know, I've never known one.
I guess it's theoretically possible.
All right. Well, please feel free to call back.
You know, you can dangle this in front of me anytime you want.
Just give me a play or two and I'll be all over it like a...
What was it? I saw this pretty funny meme the other day.
It was a picture of a pit bull swimming in the water and it said, this heroic pit bull just swam five miles out to sea just to bite a child.
Anyway, so thanks for the...
Yeah, thanks for the call. Thanks everyone so much for a wonderfully enjoyable evening of conversation and appreciate all the callers.
Thank you so much. And don't forget to pick up your copy of the fine book entitled The Art of the Argument.
And you can, of course, help at the show at freedommanradio.com slash donate.
You can follow me on Twitter at Stefan Molyneux.
Do some shopping at fdrurail.com forward slash Amazon.
And yeah, pick up Marlon Brando's A Streetcar Named Desire.
Have a look at it because essays will be due next week.
