July 14, 2018 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
03:12:21
4143 Terrified In South Africa - Call In Show - July 11th, 2018
Question 1: [1:58] – “I am a young white South African man living in one of the major cities. Having grown up in a country which is the so-called rainbow nation, the post-apartheid miracle and an example to all other countries that diversity can work. Unfortunately, the reality is that South Africa is a failed state. Crime rates are through the roof, Municipalities are corrupt and bankrupt, school standards are none exciting, and apartheid is still to blame for everything wrong in South Africa. Extreme leftist socialism is on the rising with political parties such as the Economic Freedom Fighters openly calling for the expropriation of land without compensation and calling for the killing of whites. Their leader Julius Malema being just as blood thirsty as warlords such as Idi Amin of Uganda. Going to sleep at night when Julius Malema makes statements like, “When whites arrived in South Africa, they had committed “a black genocide” when blacks were dispossessed of their land. “They found peaceful Africans here. They killed them. They slaughtered them like animals. We are not calling for the slaughtering of white people, at least for now.” Statement which are lies and creates hatred in an already fragile society. The calling for killing of whites falls on deaf ears throughout the world. It seems that the West cannot see or hear what is happening. This hatred is not only found in South Africa but throughout the third world. The third world is pouring into Europe and North America. Seeking to change and destroy the Wests values and ideologies into a socialist society such as South Africa. It seems that the West has forgotten where they came from and has this incredible self-hatred. Calling white people privileged and racist. I would like to use this opportunity as a warning to the West. You are privileged and that is why you are allowing your politicians to destroy Western values. You will only understand what you have now when in the future you have a six-foot wall with barb wire on top around your house, burglar bars on every window, alarm systems, alarmed response guards one call away and a gun next to your bed.”Question 2: [1:12:47] – "I've often heard you disparage circumcision, but data shows that women overwhelmingly prefer circumcised sexual partners. Data also shows that men are overwhelmingly not satisfied with their own abilities to last during sex, and if circumcision indeed reduces sensitivity as I've heard you claim, than wouldn't this reasonably be expected to improve a man's ability to last longer thus increasing their own sense of self-esteem? When combined with all the purported health and hygiene benefits, isn't it reasonable to conclude that circumcision is in a man's best interests and to want to give your son every advantage that you can in the sexual marketplace?"Question 3: [2:07:46] – "Do Asian Americans owe their economic prosperity to African Americans' civil rights struggles in the 1960's? Can the debt to the latter be repaid by giving them more college admissions spots (at the expense of the former)?"Your support is essential to Freedomain Radio, which is 100% funded by viewers like you. Please support the show by making a one time donation or signing up for a monthly recurring donation at: http://www.freedomainradio.com/donate
Hey, hey everybody. Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain Radio.
Hope you're doing well. Three super-duper great calls tonight.
But please, please remember to go to freedomainradio.com slash donate.
That's freedomainradio.com slash donate to help produce what you consume.
Don't be a free rider.
Don't be a freeloader. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and there certainly ain't no such thing as a free philosophy show about property rights and the non-aggression principles.
So, I remind you, I beg you, freedomainradio.com slash donate.
Now, the first caller wanted to get us up to speed on what was going on in South Africa.
And it is a view down a tunnel of time that just seems to go ever after.
Downward. When do you stand and fight?
When do you cut and run? It's a very interesting question.
Now, the second caller, gosh, what do I say?
He, I suppose, is more than willing to trade his foreskin for sexual access and wanted to make that case to my audience as well, to you.
And we had a robust exchange of ideas that ended in a pretty fiery way, but I think that the importance of the topic really, really supports that approach.
So, the third caller wanted to know Whether it's a valid thesis to say that Asian Americans owe their economic prosperity to the African American civil rights struggle in the 1960s, and so shouldn't the Asian Americans just give up spots in the university to African Americans as a way of saying thanks?
Hmm. Interesting argument.
Haven't heard it before, but we chewed through it in great depth.
Don't forget to pick up your copy of The Art of the Argument, At theartoftheargument.com.
You can also get it at audible.com.
And you can, if you have some shopping to do, go to fdrurl.com slash Amazon.
It costs you nothing. Helps us out a little bit.
And don't forget to follow me on Twitter at Stefan Molyneux and sign up for our newsletter at freedomainradio.com.
Alright, well up first today we have Dirk.
Dirk wrote in and said, I'm a young white South African man living in one of the major cities, having grown up in a country which is the so-called Rainbow Nation, the post-apartheid miracle, and an example to all other countries that diversity can work.
Unfortunately, the reality is that South Africa is a failed state.
Crime rates are through the roof, municipalities are corrupt and bankrupt, school districts are nonexciting, and apartheid is still to blame for everything wrong in South Africa.
Extreme leftist socialism is on the rise and political parties, such as the economic freedom fighters, are openly calling for the expropriation of land, without compensation, and calling for the killing of whites.
Their leader, Julius Malma, being just as bloodthirsty as warlords such as Idi Amin of Uganda, going to sleep at night when Julius Malma makes statements like, quote, end quote.
Quote, end quote.
Statements which are lies and create hatred in an already fragile society.
The calling for killing of whites falls on deaf ears throughout the world.
It seems as if the West cannot see or hear what is happening.
This hatred is not only found in South Africa, but throughout the Third World.
The Third World is pouring into Europe and North America, seeking to change and destroy the West values and ideologies into a socialist society such as South Africa.
It seems that the West has forgotten where they came from and has had this incredible self-hatred, calling white people privileged and racist.
I would like to use this opportunity as a warning to the West.
You are privileged, and that is why you are allowing your politicians to destroy Western values.
You will only understand what you have now when in the future you have a six-foot wall with barbed wire on top around your house, burglar bars on every window, alarm systems, armed response guards one call away, and a gun next to your bed.
That's from Dirk. Dirk, how are you doing, man?
I'm doing well, thanks to yourself.
I'm well, I mean, as well as I can be hearing these kinds of stories, which I've...
I'm not unfamiliar with, but do you remember life before the modern South Africa?
What has the change been? Not really.
Basically, I grew up after all my memories after 1994.
And some of my first memories was actually moving to the town that I grew up in in 1997.
So it's very interesting to see how everything changed in the society, basically, in South Africa.
Because I remember when we moved here to this town, we didn't have burglar bars, for example.
There was no fences around your house.
Everything was open.
And in a matter of two, three years, my father, for example, put up What they would call devil's fork.
It's basically steel poles that's welded next to one another.
It's got spikes on top for security reasons.
We installed alarm systems.
Society basically got more and more unsafe as time progressed until basically where we are today.
Like, for example, it's quite ironic.
Currently, my parents' house, for example, it's got this devil's fork.
On top, you've got an electric fence.
We've got an alarm system inside the garden.
So, for example, if someone gets past the electric fence, you can still have an early warning system.
And then also, their house has got another third alarm system.
Basically, if you're away on holiday and so forth, you can switch this on as well, just in case they get past all the other barriers.
And there are, of course, a lot of the South Africans who then also have panic rooms inside the home, where they aim to retreat.
And it's living in a war zone.
It is living in, well, without even the comfort.
If you're in a war zone, usually there are allies.
And, you know, like I think of London in 1940, when it was being bombed by Hitler's Luftwaffe, there was at least a sense of solidarity.
But here, there's isolation, loneliness, hatred, fragmentation, and no clear end in sight.
Well, not one that goes in the right direction, right?
Yes, yes, absolutely.
One of the latest things happening in the news is the land issue.
And it's absolutely all over the media, news, radio.
You can't switch on a news channel without them having a debate on taking white farmers' land currently.
So you've got this incredible conflict, because currently also that recently the Northern Cape had public hearings in the town walls.
And just reading those Twitter feeds, it's quite shocking to see how the people are looking at this case.
Because basically, if they start taking land in this country, it's going to be disasters for the economy.
There's probably going to be disasters for farmers.
I believe there could be a civil war, probably, if it gets so far.
Well, and tragically, that may be the optimal outcome, because otherwise, they're just going to kill all the whites, and then they're going to start running out of food, and then they're going to start heading to Europe.
Yes, that's very, very true.
Especially this one politician, Julius Malema, he's the leader of economic freedom fighters, and he's one of the main politicians pushing this land debate currently in South Africa.
So he's the leader of the third biggest party.
I do believe in the next election his numbers will definitely grow.
And he's absolutely ruthless with the statements he makes.
He's absolutely reckless.
Just to give a little bit of background to why I decided to write into the show.
Currently where I'm working...
It's not too far from a stadium away.
And when I wrote into your show, he basically had like a rally in the stadium.
So it's one thing to hear the statements he makes over the television or over the radio, or you read it in the news.
It's another completely different thing to hear one of Julius Malema's rallies for three, four hours, non-end, calling for absolutely disastrous policies.
Yeah, because there's a bloodlust and a hatred.
And I know this, obviously, not nearly as well as you do, Dirk, but when I do videos on the plight of the whites in South Africa, I mean, the amount of hatred and, you know, go back to your European caves, you murderous albinos, like the bottomless well of hatred that emerges from a lot of the comments and some of those people, of course, self-identifying.
As black, it's not a survey, but it's data of a kind.
And it is just a non-negotiable standpoint.
If you believe, as these stories are, that, you know, there was this wonderful, happy, roots-style civilization that the hateful whites came in with their sunburned evil and killed and murdered and raped.
It creates just such a bottomless level of hatred.
And as we pointed out in this show before, as I'm sure you know, it's not true.
Most of South Africa is absolutely unfarmable because it's too dry.
The only way to farm in South Africa in any reliable way is to have irrigation.
And none of the sub-Saharan blacks, not the Xhosa, not the Bantu, had irrigation technology.
So the land was empty.
It was empty. And now that the whites have created value out of land...
Suddenly, it's just the most precious thing that was stolen from us.
Do you know what I mean? Yes, it's very, very true.
I also have to say thank you to Lauren Sudden.
She did an excellent documentary a couple of weeks ago.
And the first couple of minutes, she really does clarify the history very, very well.
But that history is inconvenient to the lie that's being sold to the people.
And just for those, the documentary is called Farmlands, and it is available on YouTube, just for those who want to check it out.
And it's recommended, of course.
Yes, yes, definitely. It gives you shivers watching that.
And definitely, there's an attack on farmers, without a doubt.
It's like... Afri Forum, you did a show a couple of weeks or months ago with Aaron's Roots as well.
He usually posts on YouTube some of the videos on the stats on farm murders and so forth, and it's devastating.
And another lie is they say the farm murders dominate the South African news.
And that's another lie because they just keep it silent.
You will maybe hear of one in 10 farmer murders that takes place, but most of them are just silent.
It's an inconvenient truth.
The government doesn't want the public to know about it.
They don't want the world to know about it.
And they will just continue on with this, their reckless policies they're busy with.
And this land debate, It's the earrings and stuff they're busy currently with, it's devastating.
It's like half of the country in South Africa believe this lie that their land has been stolen and the only way for them to improve their lives is to get the land from the evil white man and once they've got this land then they will All of a sudden, with a miracle, from out of nowhere, they will be wealthy again.
Well, and they went through the process, right?
Sorry to interrupt, Dirk, but there was a whole process that went on for many years.
Maybe it's still going on. I don't know.
Wherein, if you were a black in South Africa, and you felt or had belief or reason to believe that you had claimed To the land currently being farmed by white people, you could go to the government and there would be an adjudication process and you could take back the land.
If it was found to be any kind of just claim, you could take back the land or you could take the money.
And of course, the vast majority of the blacks just took the money and did who knows what with it.
But there's been a whole process that's been in place for decades to attempt to redress any historical injustices that could even be conceivably imagined with regards to white expropriation of land.
And nobody wants the land.
They want the money. So it's just another one of these racial shakedowns.
Yes, exactly. I've basically got a theory that by the first BMW or Mercedes, they walk into the showroom to.
Because you'll find in some very poor rural communities, townships and so forth, if you travel through them, you'll find some luxury vehicles available.
In their garages, or not garages, they don't really have garages.
It's more like sink, part-time housing that they've got.
So they're not interested in the land, they're more interested in the money and the free stuff they can get.
Also another policy that the government has is this BEE, this Black Economic Empowerment, where basically they Companies, especially companies that want to work with government tender processes and so forth, are forced to employ X amount of black people.
They are forced to have X amount of the shares must be in the hands of black people, else it can be negative to the company.
And that makes it very, very difficult for Even though blacks are now by far the majority.
So there's this idea that white people have, it's like, oh, well, you know, there were these injustices against minorities, so we're just going to balance things out.
But of course, statistically, as whites become the minorities in the countries that they built, there's no...
It's equalization. People don't say, oh, well, no, now we're the majority and the whites are the minority, so let's make sure that the whites get employed and make sure the whites are well treated.
It only goes one way, historically and across the world.
It goes in terms of, well, we have a minority here.
We're going to work to try and improve their lot.
And then when the whites become the minority, there is no justice that returns the other way.
There's just continued exploitation.
Yes, yes, definitely.
And just spending some time on the internet and when I see that they're also employing or starting to employ similar type of systems in Europe and America, North America, where they have to do this diversity hiring.
It's a very slippery slope.
Before you know Those regulations and stuff will just become completely bonkers.
Basically, it's completely uncompetitive.
And it basically destroys a country's economy.
Because you have got very, very incompetent people in very powerful positions at the end of the day.
And if you haven't earned something, and you have built up a company from the ground up, you basically don't know anything.
It's corruption.
But sadly, that's how society goes today in South Africa.
And they're starting to implement that in overseas countries as well, slowly but steady.
Well, and it's against Asians.
East Asians, of course, are fiercely discriminated against in the West, in America in particular, in entrance to university because they do so much better.
And this all arises, of course, from this complete denial of scientific and biological reality about ethnic IQ differences.
I mean, it's such a horrible shame.
And damn these communists and damn these leftists to hell and gone.
Because what they do, of course, is they say, everyone's the same, therefore all differences must arise from prejudice and injustice.
But people in general, on aggregate, when looked at as group phenomena, they're not the same.
There are taller races, there are shorter races, there are smarter races, there are less smart races.
I mean, you name it.
There are just lots of differences.
And that's diversity.
That's nature tinkering with the human model to adapt it to local circumstances.
And so the reality is that you're not going to end up with completely interchangeable people like everyone's just in a Star Trek uniform where you can swap them in and out like pawns in a chess game and it doesn't really matter.
This is not the way that reality is.
And so rather than the human community coming together, coming together to say, well, there are intelligent differences between ethnicities.
It is a huge and challenging problem.
But we as a human community can get together and figure out what to do about it.
Now, people have been denying any of these biological differences.
So what they do is they just slosh money around and they pass laws and they try and jig the endings and so on.
And it doesn't work.
It just makes things worse.
It inflames racial hatreds.
It inflames hostility and rage.
And it ends up with, well, we can't become equal.
Therefore, white racism must be even worse than we thought it was.
So we're going to redouble our efforts, and you redouble your efforts, and then you still can't become equal because of human biodiversity, and therefore it must be even worse than we thought.
And we're kind of at the end of this whole 60-70 year process of trying to change the environment and redistribute resources in order to obtain equality of outcome between the races.
And people are getting kind of desperate because it really hasn't worked.
I mean, in America, in order to close...
Racial differences in school, they had a Head Start program where two-thirds of the students were supposed to end up as the average, because, of course, people are just mathematically ridiculously illiterate.
And they burned through over $100 billion trying to solve this problem, and they did not budget in any significant way at all.
There were a few spikes here and there, but they very quickly ran out.
And so we have this hypothesis, which is a truly deadly hypothesis at the moment, which says all differences in group outcomes are the result of racism, are the result of prejudice, are the result of bigotry.
And, you know, why are the blacks doing worse than the whites and the poor in South Africa?
Because the whites are evil and stole our land and stole our resources and raped our women and killed us all and that's why they're doing well.
That's a hypothesis.
When I pointed out to people commenting on my videos in South Africa, they say, well, the whites are just slaughtering the blacks.
It's like, well, but the black population went up 800% under apartheid.
That's the opposite of a genocide.
Numerically, that's the complete opposite.
But it doesn't matter.
Because the leftists, and not just the leftists, to be fair, there are lots of people who believe this, but in general, it seems to really come from the leftists, the maintenance of this fantasy of radical apartheid.
Anti-scientific human egalitarianism.
The leftists are just constantly whispering into everyone's ears, everyone's the same, all the differences are due to racism.
And anyone who talks about, say, race and IQ is just an evil Nazi.
And this idea of weaponizing visible minorities in Western countries goes back to the 1920s and was an official goal of international communism.
And it is really, really bearing its bitter fruit at the moment.
And things most likely are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.
I sort of hate to say it because you're in a more vulnerable position than I am.
But until we can get this idea across and diffuse some of these tensions, look, it's nobody's fault.
It's nobody's fault.
That groups have different levels of intelligence.
It's nobody's fault that groups have different levels of bone density.
It's nobody's fault that groups have different levels of reflexes.
Like, it's nobody's fault.
We don't need to get so enraged with each other that we're willing to kill the farmers that support our country, drive out the farmers that support our country, strip competent people from the infrastructure that keeps us all alive.
That level of anger is something that has been carefully cultivated for many, many, many years.
Decades and decades and decades.
Undoing it is going to be a huge challenge.
I stand In the world, wanting people to get along, but in order to get along, we have to stop blaming each other for things which just aren't our fault.
It's not my fault that there are differences in race and IQ. It's not my fault that there are differences in gender and IQ. It's not anyone's fault.
It is a problem that humanity has to look at, grapple with, and try to solve.
Because the way that people are trying to solve it now...
Well, rivers of blood is the phrase that's been used before, and I think it's tragically appropriate, and I will do whatever I can to prevent that from coming into being.
But if we're not allowed to talk about these differences, people who deny these differences and attack people who talk about these differences, you are signing the death warrants of millions of people.
Like, Russia is at the moment, I've heard some conflicting reports, it's either on the verge or currently accepting up to 15,000 white South African farmers to help them escape persecution.
And because they're very... What is the status of that at the moment?
It's just recently popped up into the news.
So I'm not 100% aware.
What I'm understanding, it's first going to be a couple of farmers, like 30 or 50 of them, that's going to go to Russia.
And it's going to be a process of a couple of years that they're going to migrate from South Africa to Russia.
But the first time I read those articles, I have to say it was quite humorous for me to think back 30 years ago.
Who would have thought Russia being a country that will actually save whites at the end of the day?
Because there's this communism that has been driving a lot of this stuff.
And here's the terrible thing, Dirk, and this is why I wanted to get this point across.
I put it on Twitter. People want to follow me at Stefan Molyneux.
Well, we've got a lot of good stuff coming out of Twitter.
But the average farmer, the average white farmer in South Africa feeds 2,000 people.
You take 15,000 farmers out of South Africa...
That's 30 million people who aren't going to get food.
30 million people.
Now, you could say, well, but they'll just move in.
But the farming in South Africa is really, really complicated.
And you have an average IQ in the blacks in sub-Saharan Africa in the low 70s.
Like, I'm sorry, it's not going to work.
It's nobody's fault. I'm not mad at anyone.
I have great sympathy for everyone involved.
It's not going to work.
And then there's going to be, well, now, for mysterious reasons that I'm sure will be blamed on white-driven global warming, There's a food shortage in South Africa.
So now white people who used to grow the food for the people in South Africa, now white people have to be taxed and their food taken and shipped off to South Africa.
And there won't be enough.
And then the South Africans are going to start heading north.
Yes, absolutely.
Very, very true. I just have a couple of thoughts.
The first one is very, very ironic as well.
As soon as anyone in the media brings up the fact that people are going to starve, it's going to destroy the economy and so forth.
And the debate is always, no, Cuba is a very good example, for example, of a socialist society working wonderfully.
And then they will bring up and say, but Cuba is also a failed state.
And then they will have this argument of, yes, but Cuba...
The only reason it failed is because of the bad Americans who...
Blame Whitey again!
Blame Whitey again! Yes, yes, exactly.
So it really gets old very, very quickly.
And the debate will just swift from one side to another side.
And if you bring up scenarios like Idi Amin, for example, from Uganda...
When he got into power, he basically destroyed the middle class of Uganda by giving seven days, if I remember correctly, for all the Indian population of Uganda to leave the country.
And those were the people who were the farmers.
They were the people who, at the shops, the businesses, they were dealing with imports, exports, bankers.
And within three months of getting rid of that 57,000 Indian population, the country fell to pieces.
People started starving in Uganda.
And as soon as you do that in a In South Africa as well, if you decide to get rid of, say for example, half a million productive people in this society, this country will just collapse within a couple of months, especially if you're going to take the businesses away.
But that's been going on. I mean, the white flight from South Africa has been, I mean, my father, right?
The white flight from South Africa has been enormous.
Yes. You hear every year of people leaving, immigrating to different countries, especially in New Zealand, Australia.
Some of them go to Canada, the States.
It's quite amazing to hear how many people or white farmers, for example, my age group, for example, and younger, they go to America and go work on the farms over there, for example.
Because it's simply too dangerous and all the laws and everything and the tax systems and it's absolutely ridiculous.
And also I do believe it's one of the most difficult jobs to be a farmer, especially in South Africa, like you brought up the climate.
Big parts of South Africa has got a very, very harsh climate.
Very cold winters.
You also get very odd summers.
Rainfall is not like in Europe, for example, where you've got many milliliters of rain every year.
It's quite a dry region.
And many of the farms are very isolated as well.
A farmer basically has to be the mechanic, he has to be the builder, he has to do the books, he has to know a bit about veterinary science to help with his animals, he has to know about plants, he has to understand the weather, diseases, and it's a very, very complex job.
It's a job, honestly, I wouldn't be able to do it.
And another thing is it's a stereotype.
They always say a farmer works from sunup to sundown.
And that's very, very true.
And unfortunately, the vast majority of the people living in South Africa are very, very lazy.
They don't want to sacrifice to get something.
They want to receive something for free from the government.
And that's evident by just looking at the massive welfare system in this country.
It's absolutely astonishing.
Yeah, there are more people on welfare than paying taxes many times.
Yes, exactly.
And another thing that's recently being also in the news has been this national healthcare insurance scheme that the government is thinking of.
And so I have to say is that the government clearly doesn't understand economics 101 because this system is ridiculous.
So to give you background, the government hospitals, the state-run hospitals are basically failing.
They don't have medical supplies.
They don't have doctors.
Because many doctors are leaving the country, first of all.
And it's just completely ineffective.
It's not working at all.
So the government's solution to this is to have like an Obamacare, basically, but for South African now.
So they want the people who are paying tax to subsidize a new medical fund And this medical fund will allow all the citizens of South Africa to go to private hospitals.
And after that news broke out, I went on the internet just to figure out how many taxpayers we've got in South Africa is actually paying taxes.
And first of all, you get conflicting information.
You get anything from 4 to about 7.5 million people are actually paying taxes.
And that small percentage of the population will have to fund a scheme, a medical scheme, for approximately 60-plus million people.
It's going to be very, very expensive, especially if it's being run by the government, who is always notorious and effective with everything they do.
Honestly, Dirk, I have no idea where people think this is going to go when you have 4 to 6 million people funding the healthcare of 60 million people.
What do they think is going to happen?
Of course, there's no particular plan.
And this is not just in South Africa.
This is governments around the world who are just refusing to look at the mathematics and what is completely unsustainable and making rational decisions and telling hard truths to the population.
And... The terrible thing is, and I've said this before, and it's something that appalls me, but we have to look at the facts, even though they stare back with baleful eyes.
The reality is that in the third world, the population has increased due to the expertise of other cultures and other races.
And because there's this great lie, as I mentioned before, about racial egalitarianism, There's this belief that you can just transfer a European-run civilization or a white-run civilization, just transfer it to, say, blacks or Indians, and it's just going to be the same, you know, because people are just interchangeable.
But it's not.
It's not. And it's incredibly cruel what is happening right now.
The amount of suffering that is going to go on in South Africa as a result of this lie, it takes a preternaturally interstellar cosmic sadism To set this kind of horror into motion, these endless horrors into motion.
And the fact that people like myself, we're considered to be what?
Bad guys, because we're talking about upcoming disasters in race relations based upon egalitarian fantasies and based upon constantly whispering into an aggressive population's ear that it's the white people.
Go kill the white people. It's the white people who killed your ancestors, who enslaved everyone.
My God! I mean, this, you know, is the pen mightier than the sword?
Well, in this case, the word is mightier than the sword.
And the population explosion that has occurred in South Africa as the result of Western medicine, Western forms of government, Western food production methods, and so on, you take the Westerners out of the equation.
It all goes back to zero.
It all resets.
It all. You know, like when the machine stops working and you don't know how to fix it, well, you have to find a way to live without the machine if you can.
And this idea that you can just set something in motion and it doesn't matter who's in charge and it doesn't matter, average IQ between poppy doesn't matter, it is cruel beyond words.
And the other thing, too, It doesn't just provoke racism, anti-white racism among the blacks.
It provokes anti-black racism among the whites.
Because without knowledge of these IQ differences, what happens is people say, well...
The blacks are lazy.
The blacks are shiftless.
You know, and it's like, no, they're not.
It's hard work to survive in the bush felt.
It's hard work to survive in such a dry climate.
No, not lazy.
Energy conservation makes a good deal of sense when food is abundant and it takes a lot of water and energy to move around in the hot sun.
They're not lazy.
They're not incompetent.
They're not I don't know.
It's not that way.
You wouldn't look at somebody with an IQ of 75 and say, well, that person is just not trying hard enough to be a physicist.
That person is just not concentrating enough.
They're just too lazy to pick up a book.
It's like, no.
For God's sakes, have some compassion for these differences.
Have some sensitivity for these differences.
We all have to work together as a human community or we're going to tear each other apart.
Yes, and I have to say, I do believe the government is causing a lot of these problems because with this endless welfare that's being paid to people to have babies, there's no investment in the children at all.
It's not funny at all to hear about a black family having more than six, seven, eight kids, for example.
The average birth rate is over five.
So given that some people are infertile and some people have fewer, there are certainly some pretty big families out there.
Yes, yes. And I have family members that has worked previously with grants and social welfare and so forth.
And they say it's basically, it's not a lot of money they get from the government.
But for a poor person, To all of a sudden have a couple of rands who previously had nothing, that's a lot of money.
And then they have this incentive to get children, and there's no investment in the children.
It's basically, we're going to have eight of them.
If a couple of them survive, good news.
Well, they get paid per child, usually, through the welfare state, right?
Yes, exactly. So, sure, just have kids.
You get paid for it. It's a job.
Yeah, and there's a lot of corruption as well with identity fraud and so forth.
Because the longer they can convince the government this child is underage, the longer they can get welfare from the government.
And I believe it's approximately like 25% give or take of the budget of the government every year goes to welfare.
Projects basically and this is this is very very unsustainable and And if you look from a point if the families they're also very very broken because they're all single-parent households like if you were to talk to a black family and stuff it's not a funny thing to hear that their dad ran away for example and Or in many cases,
it's their grandparents taking care of these children.
It's completely irresponsible.
There's no responsibility anymore.
And those children grow up with broken households, broken families.
And that does really, really do damage to those children later in life.
Without a doubt, without a doubt.
And, you know, I charge with those who push back against conversations about IQ differences, you have also the blood of people in the Middle East on your hands, because the idea of nation building, the idea of we're going to destroy a dictator and the country's going to flourish, well, that in the West comes off the examples in the post-Second World War period of Japan and Germany.
These two countries were bombed end to end.
Japan had massive amounts of hyperincendiary bombing throughout late 1944 and into 1945.
And of course, the structures in Japan, well, they're largely made of wood.
So you had a thousand plane raids over Tokyo that could kill up to 100,000 people a night.
You had two atomic bombs.
Germany was laid waste virtually from end to end, from the east by the Russians, from the west by the Allies.
And they rebuilt themselves very quickly.
After their dictators, the emperor was diminished, and Hitler committed suicide.
So after their dictators were eliminated or diminished, they rebuilt themselves.
And look at, to a slower degree, what happened...
Well, to a faster degree, what has happened in China after the end of communism.
And to a smaller degree, what happened in Russia after the end of communism.
But these are very high IQ countries.
So of course they're going to solve problems.
Of course they're going to rebuild.
Of course they're going to end up with relative freedoms and a relative free market because it's very high IQ countries.
Japan's very high.
Germany is one of the highest in Europe.
China's extraordinarily high.
Well, there's Russia.
Not quite as high, which is I don't think why they've done quite as well.
But the idea that the West, this coalition, just go and kill Saddam Hussein, take over his government, and you're going to get some magical Jeffersonian democracy emerging out of the ashes.
No, I'm sorry.
Iraq's got an IQ in the 80s.
It's not going to happen. You've got cousin marriage all over the place.
It's not going to happen.
The treatment of children is brutal, although that was to some degree true in Japan and China as well.
But nonetheless...
This fantasy that we can do this, there is so much blood on the hands of people who deny this essential conversation.
And it is so important.
If we could have these conversations, we could calm some of the rage in the disadvantaged communities.
We could also calm some of the guilt.
My God, the guilt. Guilt and rage are two things.
That go hand in hand.
I'm sure you've had this experience too.
Let me sort of touch on it very briefly.
And it sounds a very personal way to describe a very big problem.
But I think it's important to mention.
So when I was younger, I was very self-critical.
To the point, I think, where it was too much.
Now it was good for undoing false beliefs and all that.
But what happened was, if I did something wrong, I would get very down on myself.
And that actually invited people.
To be more mean to me.
Because it's like, oh man, I did this thing, you know, that was really bad.
And then people, they kind of pile on.
It's like self-criticism creates a vacuum filled by almost the involuntary abuse of other people.
Well, he's already beating up on himself.
I'm piling in. Gives me a sense of power in the moment.
And it's the same thing with this pathological altruism, this pathological guilt that white people have.
Oh, I'm sorry we gave the world science and medicine and the free market and free societies and limited government.
Boy, I'm sorry we gave you all technology.
I mean, come on. Medicine.
Oh, terrible. Terrible stuff.
We're the worst people ever.
We're basically like Genghis Khan, except with antibiotics and soap.
So, it's this...
This self-hatred, this self-condemnation, this pathological self-criticism of white people is horrendous.
It is so destructive to the world as a whole.
It's not helping the world. It's making the world worse.
It may satisfy bullies in the moment.
It's not helping the world at all.
At all. And not that I'm saying that whites should wake up every morning and say, how can we help the world?
It's like, the world doesn't seem to appreciate it and we gave it a good old shot and we're certainly trying with all of our demographics at the moment.
It doesn't seem to be working out too well.
But it's not anything to be guilty about that different groups Of mammals developed different capacities in wildly different environments.
It's like saying, I feel guilty that the giraffe has a really tall neck.
I feel horribly guilty that koalas sleep a lot of the day.
I feel so horrendously guilty that whales have nostrils on the top of their heads.
Oh! Wretched!
Woe is me! That certain lemurs seem to have prehensile tails.
Oh, that terror and the horror.
It's just adaptations to local environments, people.
It's evolution. It's nobody's fault.
It's a challenge to talk about, maybe a problem to solve.
There's probably a lot of stuff we can do about it.
But just getting raged and guilty and this manipulation and resource transfers and self-hatred and other hatred.
I mean, this is This is a complete disaster.
And there's only one remedy, which is why the left, who wants to continually sow these Iago-style divisions between all these groups, this is why the left tries to shut down every single conversation about these things, because it undoes the hatred they live on.
Yes, no, definitely.
And I have to say also, the left, they usually attack freedom of speech.
One of the first things they attack is Because I have to give a silly example.
Growing up in South Africa, how speech is being policed.
Like you were taught growing up, you're not allowed to say certain words.
You're not allowed to have certain debates.
And it creates this numbness.
And basically, many people...
In South Africa or for the white population, you talk to them and it's like they live in this bubble because they were taught during school, growing up, the media and everything, you're not allowed to talk about these things.
Your opinion doesn't matter.
And that's sadly what's starting to happen in Europe as well.
Article 13 should Should definitely not go through because before the Europeans know it, they will have another hundred million people from the third world moved into their countries.
They're not allowed to speak up against it.
They're not allowed to have a free debate about it.
And it will just destroy their society.
It will destroy their cultures.
It feels like many people don't realize it because they're not allowed to talk about it.
Yeah, it is.
And I think what happens is, I think the left is kind of hoping that they can get enough of this demographic change in place that it becomes pointless or impossible to talk about it.
Because the numbers are already in motion.
But I'm not sure we're there yet.
But, well, it seems that South Africa is certainly there.
But I would say...
That these are essential conversations.
If you care about blacks, if you care about whites, if you care about East Asians, you know, the three major races, we all got to stop hating and being afraid and so guilty.
We need to. We need to.
And the only thing that can save us from this bottomless hatred and guilt and self-destruction and calm these jets is the truth.
It's the truth. And as long as we can speak the truth, we have a chance.
When we can't, well, we just bunker down and try and survive.
Yes, yes. Very, very true.
Unfortunately, the few people in South Africa who are trying to speak up against this, like Afri Forum, for example, today, one of the The main people in Afri Forum,
for example, outside the court, he was verbally abused and shouted out and so forth by blacks, for example, and they've got this hatred.
Of course, Afri Forum is trying to talk about this and get to a solution that will be beneficial for all races.
But it's like the governments and politicians, they don't want it.
They thrive in this chaos, especially with the voting season around the corner in South Africa.
And I believe that's one of the main reasons why all these lies and And struggles and everything is being brought up again.
It's basically politicians trying to stay in power at the end of the day.
Well, I think that's tragically true.
They're not thinking about the long term.
And the long term is not going to be the long term for a lot of people unless we start to actually wrestle and deal with these issues.
But it's the exact opposite.
It's true. The people who are...
And I hate to be this whataboutism guy.
Like, oh, the real racists are.
But the people who are the real racists are the ones setting up disasters for various ethnicities around the world.
And full-on hate-on for the group that's running your technology, running your medicine, running your irrigation systems, running your farms, running your electricity, running your water.
Well... Full-on hatred for that group, the attack and destruction of that group, is incredibly cruel to those who are going to be left behind.
I mean, we see what's happening in Cape Town with the water.
We're going to see what's happening, I'm sure, relatively soon to things like the electricity grid.
Because when you take over something you can't particularly manage too well, there's a momentum.
It lasts for a while, for sure, right?
You go steal someone's car, you don't know how to maintain it, you can drive it around for a while.
And then it's just going to start to fall apart.
But that little while seems like, woohoo!
I can't believe anyone takes care of these cars.
This is easy! It's like, it's really not.
It's really not. Interesting that you're bringing the electricity up.
The company that supplies the electricity to South Africa is Eskom.
And this is basically a government state-owned company.
And also currently happening in the news is basically they're busy with strikes and protests and so forth because they want like an unrealistic raise of I believe it's 11 or 12% the workers.
So there's been a couple of blackouts in the last couple of weeks because they just the unions are completely in control of the Of the workers, and they tell the workers, you're not going to go to work, and then ESCOM runs into trouble.
And ESCOM is also massively indebted.
Honestly, I don't think they're ever going to be able to get out of their debts.
It's just unbelievable.
And that for matter goes for many of the state-owned companies throughout South Africa.
They are completely ineffective.
They are massively in debt.
Most of the company's budget goes basically to employ people.
It doesn't really do much.
They're creating positions that no free enterprise will in their right mind create these positions.
I should say, for example, construction sites.
They will employ so many people on construction sites for so-called health and safety reasons.
And all they do is they just have a flag and they just stand next to the construction site or the road project and they just will be waving their flag.
That's basically all they do.
And all of that costs money.
And there's no money to pay for For silly things basically anymore in this country.
The budget of this country is extremely tight.
Right. So what are your plans?
That's the problem.
You always sit with this debate in your head.
Should I move?
Should I not move to a different country?
From a Economic standpoint, for example, it will make sense to move to an overseas country, for example.
But then you still have got your family members, you've got your friends and everyone in the country.
And it's one of those situations you don't really know what to do.
But yeah, it's...
Let me ask this for you.
If you were in my scenario, for example, or in an average South African scenario, what would your steps be?
Would you try and speak up like individuals like Ernst Roots, for example, and the St.
Londoner, Steve Hofmeyer, or would you pack up your bags and leave to another country, maybe to Europe?
And always in the back of my head, I've got this Think or thoughts of, well, Europe might be in 30 years' time where South Africa currently is, with the rate of importing the third world.
Yeah. Well, I mean, these are tough questions because, of course, we live separate lives and so on.
I gave up early friends and family for philosophy.
So for you to say, well, I got friends and family.
So, you know, it's like, well, I gave them up not for fears of racial civil war, but because I wanted to do what I'm doing now and they weren't supportive and they were in opposition and undermining.
And so, you know, I may be the wrong guy for, wow, the real value of your friends and family from your childhood and so on.
But I would say...
That even if you think the next boat might sink, it's still worth getting off the boat that is sinking.
You know, you get your cancer treated even if it might come back.
And so getting out of a bad situation into a better situation, I think, is important right now.
And if you're a young man, And you can get to a place where you have freedom of speech.
Of course, in particular, America is still the place for freedom of speech.
You know, the Supreme Court has affirmed many times that there's no such thing as hate speech.
There's just free speech, because hate speech is just a made-up term for tyranny and censorship.
So if you want to help South Africa, the question is, From where can you best do that?
Well, I don't know if you can do it in South Africa that well.
Can you do it outside of South Africa to raise awareness, to raise knowledge, to raise facts from a place where you have genuine free speech?
It's pretty good free speech in Canada as well, too.
There are places, I wouldn't necessarily say England or Germany or Sweden, where free speech is not even remotely secure.
But I would say, get to a place where you can speak the truth without being prosecuted.
Now, you say, well, I've got my friends and my family.
Sure, which is good, because that means that you have a place for them to go if they want to leave too.
Hey, come and live in Durk Town.
It's wonderful over here.
So there are things that can be done.
Now, that doesn't mean you have to leave forever.
Let's say that you go and you make a case and we all make the case and the Chinese study of genetics moves ahead and the science catches up.
And eventually, I mean, there'll still be flat earthers who deny human biodiversity, but it'll become a settled sort of deal.
And then we can actually start solving problems rather than just causing problems.
And then maybe there'll be a way to go back.
Once the hatred has cooled down, once understanding has diminished the hysteria of race relations, then maybe there's a way to go back.
But, Dirk, come on, you know as well as I do.
You're a smart young man.
You know as well as I do where this is going, right?
This doesn't slow down.
Historically, this doesn't stop.
This only tends to escalate.
Yes, especially if you look at the history of many, many previous African states.
Or Germany. Yes, Germany as well.
It never ends well.
It never. No, and those who cross their fingers and hope for the best?
History tends to not deal with them very kindly.
Yes, I do agree with that.
The jumpiest tend to live. I hate to put it that way, but like you and I are walking in the woods and there's a crack of a twig somewhere and I'm like, oh, I'm sure it's nothing.
And you're like, I think that's a bear.
Well, if it's nothing, what have you lost?
If it's a bear, I'm dead.
So I think jumpy is not bad at all.
It's not a bad place to be.
Yes. As long as you jump somewhere, right?
Yes. Yes, yes, very, very true.
And like you said, luckily America has got, the constitution is very well written and does allow for freedom of speech and people can speak up against things like this,
for example. Yeah, if you end up speaking from where you are and you get in trouble with the law, you run afoul of some free speech law or some policeman who, you know, you don't have any particular defense, there's no constitution, there's no First Amendment and so on, I don't know that you're doing that much good being a martyr in your home country.
Whereas if you can go to a place where you can broadcast and get the facts out and sleep at night, I can certainly see an upside.
And the other thing too, Dirk, is that you got to have a life too.
You can't just be an activist.
You know, that's a way of ending up as a monodimensional being without balance.
You know, like I have a wife, I have a child, I have friends, we goof off, we, you know, we play video games together, we, you know, we have barbecues, we go swimming.
It's, you got to have fun in your life.
And the problem when you're living in an extremity of a situation like is going on in South Africa, if you're white, It's hard to have a balance in life.
I mean, if you have kids, they're not going to play outside, are they?
What are they going to do? Video games, tablets, and iron bars on the window.
Come on. I mean, when I was a kid, I loved playing outside.
The glorious anarchy of Find Your Own Playmates...
In an unstructured environment is one of the main reasons I think I ended up becoming a free thinker or a thinker.
If you want to have kids, your kids should choose.
And there's plenty of places in the world where you can go, where your kids can roam around a safe neighborhood, finding cool kids to play with, and becoming self-sufficient and independent thereby.
Whereas, how are you going to explain to your kids why they're growing up in an 8x12 concrete block with broken glass on the tops of the walls.
Yes, yes.
I do agree with that.
It's sad to see actually how the sense of communities throughout South Africa actually disappeared as the walls went up.
Because you don't see your neighbor because he's behind the wall.
Or faints. Everyone is always locked up.
Everyone is always self-consciously thinking about security.
So the sense of community is definitely not there like it used to be, say, 15, 16 years ago.
Well, I was last in South Africa.
Oh, just 35 years ago.
And... I roamed all over the place, in the bush, the jungle, on the velts, in the towns.
I love to walk. I've always loved to walk.
And that's no more, no longer.
You can't really walk around town as a white person.
Probably can't even walk around town as a black person if you've got any kind of social status, right?
No, no, no. I also wanted to bring up black-on-black violence is also very, very bad, especially in the townships.
It's just completely bonkers.
It's very, very dangerous.
In South Africa, if you are a hiker or you're enthusiastic about nature, for example, it's very, very risky to go on a hiking trail.
Cape Town, for example, there has been scenarios where people would hike Table Mountain and so forth, where they will be attacked and robbed.
That's something that you do read in the newspapers.
So it's not as free as it used to be 35 years ago.
Especially when I talk to the older generations, and that goes for black and white.
They will say definitely the country was far, far safer in the old days compared to today's society.
There's basically no consequences of committing a crime in South Africa because the police is so incompetent.
If I just give you a silly Scenario that happened to me a couple of days ago.
I was at a police station to report a case.
And when I walked out of the police station, my vehicle's windscreen was smashed with a beer bottle, for example.
That's in front of a police station.
So if you commit a crime Nothing is really going to happen for you with the incompetent beliefs we've got here.
Well, you know, I hate to nag you while you're in your situation, but this is just the kind of language that I resist, rightly or wrongly.
I mean, the idea of saying that this is incompetence, again, if you look at the IQ disparities, I think it's not an appropriate term.
You know, it's not incompetence.
It's just biodiversity.
Now, you could say, well, relative to East Asians, but, you know, so what, right?
I mean, we don't say to a Japanese guy of average height, you're short because the Swedish or the Danish people are really tall.
No, he's not short.
He's average height for a Japanese guy.
It's really tough to reframe this, but I think that there's such a pejorative sense where we use the word incompetent.
I don't think it's fair.
I don't think it's fair because we know the differences.
So for those who, and this is from the book Kill the Boer, which is important to read, B-O-E-R, about half a million South Africans have been murdered since 1994.
A South African still has a bigger chance of being murdered in this country than citizens in countries suffering from terror attacks.
In the financial year of 2015 to 2016, 623,223 contact crimes, that's murder, assault, robbery, and sexual offenses, were reported.
One year. Those are the ones that are reported.
We can't even imagine, given, as you say, how Unable.
Which to me seems better than incompetent.
But how unable? The police force is.
The fact that there are so many reported crimes would indicate that to me there would be many, many more that were not reported because people can figure things out.
I mean, I think a lot of people just report stuff for insurance reasons.
It's kind of what you've got to do and so on.
But it's crazy stuff.
The level of crime is absolutely astonishing.
Yes. It's always funny when you meet someone from overseas country and you first have to give them a safety briefing when they arrive in South Africa.
You tell them, look after your handbag, for example, and have it open.
Always lock your doors.
You don't drive with your windows down just in case you're being hijacked and so forth.
It's that disbelief in their faces when you tell these things to them, like this can't be true that you're telling me.
And the sad reality is three, four months later when they head back home, they say it's astonishing.
They understand exactly what you mean by that, that it's unsafe in many, many places in this country.
Yeah. South Africa has been described as, and I quote, one of the least lawful countries on earth.
Its rape and murder rates reached number one and three in the world in 2010.
A 2013 report by UNO DC, which is United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, ranked South Africa ninth in the world for its high murder rate.
You say, oh, ninth? Well, there has been a slight decline in the murder rate ranking, but only because since the Ferguson effect...
America's become more violent, so it's displacing things a little bit.
The downward trend in violence in South Africa only bottomed out in 2011.
Since then, the murder rate in South Africa has increased every year until publication of this book, which is 2018.
During the year of 2007 to 2008, this stuff, like, it's hard to fathom.
About 50.4 people were murdered on average every day in South Africa.
50! Almost 50 and a half people murdered every day in South Africa.
It declined down to 42.6 2011-2012, increased again to 52.1 murders per day on average for the whole of 2016-2017.
This amounts to one murder in South Africa every 28 minutes.
Over the course of this conversation, three people have been murdered.
One murder every 28 minutes.
And these are the reported ones.
The ironic thing is there's a lot of communities who definitely don't report many of the crimes.
In some places in the country, it's absolutely lawless.
They don't even obey street signs, for example, traffic lights.
It doesn't matter if the traffic light is red or green.
You try and cross the cross to get on your destination.
So it's devastating.
And just for those who want to check out the book, it's called Kill the Boer, B-O-E-R, by Ernst Rhoetz, E-R-N-S-T-R-O-E-T-S. Kill the Boer, Government Complicity in South Africa's Brutal Farm Murders.
That's commissioned by the Afroforum, and we'll put a link to the book below.
It is harrowing reading, but essential, I do believe, so...
Yeah, I mean, you know, you have one life, my friend.
You have one life. And you have some choices.
I'm working, as are other people, to try and bring the basic facts, science, and reality to the world.
But who knows how far we're going to get.
That's not up to me. What's up to me is how honestly and with what degree of integrity and compassion I bring these facts to people's attention, whether they listen or not.
It's Really up to them.
So who knows? If this information does become more widely accepted and we can begin to deal with these problems as an intelligent species that hopefully is not hell-bent on its own destruction, then there may be some turnaround.
But, you know, it's hard.
It's hard to teach people to stop hating when they've invested their life into that hatred.
It's hard. It's hard to undo the lies of many, many decades.
It's hard to undo resentment when people have staked their entire identity on blame.
So I'm not going to say it's a losing battle, but it's not a battle we're certain of winning.
And I think that you've got to try and find a way to live your life.
We're not here to serve some massive, larger cause.
We are here to do good, but I think that the doing of good is Important in your personal life first, you know, have integrity in your relationships, have love in your life, have support, have people who care and have a sense of security and safety and a little bit of peace and quiet,
a little bit of calm reflection and the love and support of people in your life for whatever difficult truths you have to speak seems to me a pretty essential foundation for what needs to be done in the world and I would certainly look into that.
You certainly don't owe the country anything.
I believe. You owe virtue, I think.
You owe integrity. But that's a complicated thing that is certainly not involved in self-sacrifice.
The pathological altruism that occurs among Europeans and their descendants can sometimes lead us to, I'm going to stand and fight.
It's the right thing to do. And it's like, A, I don't know that it is.
And B, you really don't have to.
Yes, no. Um...
Like you said, it's a very difficult conversation to have throughout the world.
And speaking up and having a reasonable or open discussion is very, very, very important.
And I wish the world will have these debates.
Because that's the only solution, is speech and sadly also common sense, which is really lacking in many cases.
Well, listen, I hope you let us know what goes on.
I'm going to move on to the next caller.
I really, really appreciate you calling in.
This is something that we in the West do.
Need to, I don't care what it takes, you know, prop your eyelids open with toothpicks, clockwork orange style, and look at this data.
Look at South Africa. Read the books.
Listen to people like this caller.
Watch Farmlands, the documentary about Lauren Southern.
Read the bell curve. Listen to the interviews that I have on this show.
And speak the truth. We have to.
I know it can be tough. I know it can be difficult.
But the only thing that's worse than speaking the truth is living in self-destructive lies.
So thank you very much for your call.
I really, really appreciate it, Dirk.
And hopefully we'll talk again.
Thank you very much for all the wonderful work you do.
And everyone that's always on your show as well.
Thank you very much. Enjoy your evening.
Okay, up next we have Lyndon.
Lyndon wrote in and said, Isn't it reasonable to conclude that circumcision is in a man's best interest and to want to give your son every advantage that you can in the sexual marketplace?
That's from Lyndon. Lyndon, how are you doing?
Good. Hi, Stefan. Nice to chat with you.
Are you circumcised yourself? I don't really want to go into my personal status because I don't think that it's actually relevant to how I came to my position.
I used to be against circumcision and it was after I examined all of the science and papers on it that I came to this position.
So it's not really my own personal status that made me become pro-circumcision.
Alright, so we'll talk about penises, just not yours.
Alright, that's not my preference, but that's certainly a choice that I'll live with.
So give me the case.
Let me hear about how removing a third of the baby's penis skin is a good thing to do.
All right. Well, we know that there's a bunch of health benefits, like all kinds of- What are they?
Lowered risks of diseases, lowered risk of HIV, lowered risk of herpes, HPV, that sort of thing.
Urinary tract infection, lower risk- Lower risk of penile cancer.
And actually those can also mean lower risk for your female partner to get cervical cancer as well if you don't have HPV. So those are like some of the health benefits, some of the myriad.
But for me, I just kind of view that as like a bonus.
That's like the gravy that you get.
For me, the sort of the compelling reason to do it is that women prefer it.
So it seems like it's going to give you an advantage with the ladies.
And I'm going to then go out on a limb and say that if you believe that women prefer it, then you're circumcised and they've not complained.
So you don't have to confirm or deny.
I'm just going to go with that.
This is based off scientific studies where they've asked women and it's like upwards of 90% say they prefer it.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not circumcised.
I slept with some ladies, not one single complaint, not one single bit of hesitation, not one single problem the entire time.
I'm just, I know that the plural of anecdote is not data, but I'm just telling you my particular experience and men that I've talked to who are not circumcised, it's never been.
See, the thing is, once you've got an erection...
You're not covered anyway.
You know what I mean? It's like you've already put on the hoodie.
I guess you've already put on the turtleneck and it's down below your chin.
So hopefully when you're in a state of sexual arousal with a woman, you're pointing to the ceiling fan, not to the toes, penis-wise.
So by then, your penis is already extended and the foreskin has retracted.
So I don't know what they're talking about.
I mean, they don't see this...
What do they call it? The elephant or anteater or something like that, right?
Yeah, the anteater, yeah.
How does the girl even, is she sitting there, you know, like measuring things, you know, like looking for scar tissue?
Like it's usually not too bright unless you're on a porn set, I guess.
It's usually not too bright. And by the time you're naked, hopefully you got this nice diamond hard boner and your foreskin is retracted anyway.
Right. Well, I think that the hygiene is when you ask the women what it is about it, that's one thing that they'll tend to bring up is that they've encountered hygiene issues with guys who weren't circumcised.
And not to get too graphic or anything, but I think that like it's with the oral sex where this really comes into play.
So if you like oral sex and you want it to be enthusiastic from your partner and everything like that, you're probably better off circumcised.
Wait, are you – I'm sorry.
I mean, if we're going to get graphic, let's get graphic.
So are you saying that women are giving blowjobs to guys who don't wash their penis?
Well – Because I got to think that's kind of a judgment issue on the part of the ladies, you know?
Like if he's got brown teeth and pit stains, you know what I mean?
He's got fur in his ass, then maybe you don't want to go ducking for diseased apples, right?
Bobbing for fruit that ain't ripe or too ripe, I guess.
I mean, you can't always have it washed.
If you're circumcised, you're just more likely to be ready to go at a moment's notice because you never know when that shoe's going to drop.
Well, you do get some sense once you become a kid.
Once you have kids, you do get a bit more of a sense.
Spontaneity tends to go down just a smidge.
Okay, I hear that.
But if you do encounter spontaneity, you're not always going to be able to run to the sink and rinse your dick off under the sink.
So, are you saying that you can use, in general, without anesthetic, that you can basically slice or saw off a third of a baby's penis skin Because, some decades down the road, he might want a spontaneous blowjob and not have access to soap.
Do you feel that that's a balanced perspective?
In other words, if you say to an adult, you can have a circumcision performed on you as an adult, just on the off chance, once or twice or three times a year, you want to get a hummer in the woods and there's no soap around.
Or, you know, you could just carry some soap and water around in your backpack or in your car or whatever.
Like, do you think that's a balanced perspective?
Do you think that that's something you would do?
I think that you're maybe downplaying the...
I don't want to overplay it either because I don't think that this is a huge issue.
I agree with you that you can be uncircumcised and have a good sex life and all that.
I don't think this is like some critical thing, but it just seems like if women prefer it, and if the health benefits outweigh the risks of doing it, I don't see what is the big grievance that you're supposed to have If your parents have this done for you, that's what I don't... Like, you're saying, oh, why are we cutting off their skin?
And it's like, well, because they're better off without it.
That's why. Well, okay.
They're better off without it?
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Well, okay. So, let's take these one by one.
Low risk of sexually transmitted diseases, right?
Yeah, which are on the rise in America.
Right. So, I'm sure you know about basic economics and...
Incentives, right? So if men believe that there's a lower chance of sexually transmitted diseases if they're not circumcised, then they may be.
Sorry, if they're circumcised, there's less of a chance of sexually transmitted diseases.
They may be tempted to not use a condom because they say, well, I have less of a chance of getting a sexually transmitted disease, so I won't need a condom.
So it may actually raise their chances of getting sexually transmitted diseases.
Now, You can of course use a condom and a condom is almost infinitely better at reducing STDs than simply being Yes.
So, of course, you shouldn't really have to worry about STDs when you're a kid.
By the time you become an adult, you can use a condom or, of course, you can be in a marriage, say, with a monogamous partner and then you don't have to worry about sexually transmitted diseases.
So, there's lots of things that you can do to eliminate or reduce the risk of sexually transmitted diseases.
That has nothing to do with being circumcised when it comes to urinary tract infections.
So yeah, so the doctors who like circumcision say that there's a lower risk of UTIs and circumcised baby boys.
Now, nobody knows exactly why this is.
It could be that some of the parents don't know how to properly handle a penis that's intact.
Maybe they've been told to retract the foreskin, their son's foreskin, in order to clean it when the child is still young.
Of course, the foreskin should never be forcibly retracted.
Maybe they're getting UTIs because of that.
Because, of course, it's indoor plumbing rather than an outdoor plumbing scenario, girls are about eight times more likely to get STDs compared to boys.
Even circumcised boys and UTIs in both girls and boys are easily treatable with antibiotics.
So again, I'm not really sure that it's that necessary.
And if it's STDs, then why not just wait for the child to grow up?
You don't need to protect the baby against STDs, so just wait for an adult to do it, right?
And when it comes to...
And then penile cancer is very, very rare, of course, right?
It's like, I think it's 1% or even less of male cancers.
And, you know, whether there's a relationship, whether it's good or bad and so on, well, there is soap, right?
So, I mean, to me, if it comes down to cleanliness, soap is the same as not having a foreskin, right?
Now, penile cancer is very rare.
Breast cancer is much more common.
So, would you suggest...
Removing the breasts of female babies, because they can survive without them, they can breastfeed through formula and so on, right?
Would you suggest removing the breasts of female babies in order to reduce or eliminate their chance of getting breast cancer?
No, of course not. It's like I said, the health benefits to me are just sort of a bonus, but none of the sexual benefits that men get from circumcision could be applied to removing a woman's breasts or to female circumcision.
Those same arguments don't work when you switch the gender.
Why not? Well, there's no studies that show that men prefer circumcised women that I'm aware.
I'm not an expert on females.
Are you kidding me? You don't think in Somalia men expect for women to have been genital mutilated?
What are you talking about?
Do you think that men...
I mean, good heavens! If men preferred women who didn't undergo female genital mutilation in certain cultures, it would start pretty quickly, right?
I'm not really an expert in female circumcision, so I can't really...
No, but you understand it happens because men accept it or may even prefer it, right?
Because if men rejected it, if men said, I'm never getting married to a woman who's had that procedure done, then the procedure would stop in less than one generation.
Yeah, you're probably right about that, but correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason that they like it is because it reduces the female's pleasure?
Is that...? Yeah, but that's the same reason why circumcision was introduced, right?
Was to reduce male pleasure and also to diminish the pleasure that comes from masturbation, right?
So you're saying that we should prefer something that reduces our pleasure.
I mean, come on. If you have trouble lasting as a man, I don't know, put a mask of Margaret Thatcher on your girlfriend.
I don't know. Put some nipple clamps on, stick an electrode up your ass, you know, tickle your balls with a cactus.
I don't know, but you can do lots of things that don't involve mutilating your penis.
It's like the vast majority of men.
I think they did like a Kinsey study where it was half of men last less than two minutes.
Well, God, just go twice!
Jeez! Just go twice!
But the thing is, is that, I mean, we can joke about it, but the men, what the study showed was it bothers the men more than that bothers the women.
Like, they feel inadequate and a sense of shame because they can't last long enough.
Oh, God. I mean, I don't know about any of this stuff, but if you're having trouble lasting, I don't know, have more sex.
Masturbate an hour before so you can – there's so many things that you can do that don't involve mutilating a baby.
These are not problems that are a big deal to solve.
And I got to tell you this too, man.
If you're with a woman – Who says, I'd really prefer it if you'd had your penis mutilated.
That's a cold-hearted cow, man.
I'll tell you that right now.
If she's like, well, it's not that I love you.
It's not that it gives you more pleasure to have your penis be intact.
It's not that I find it objectionable that males are branded as disposable in this kind of way.
Like, can you imagine saying, well, if you come to a woman with a normal vagina and labia and all of that, and you say, oh, that's pretty gross.
Oh, I really wish you'd had that stuff hacked off.
As a baby, man, that would be way better.
Oh, I don't like that normal vagina.
I mean, do not sleep with that guy.
You know, that's horrible. That's horrible.
That's a horrible thing. I wish you'd had your penis mutilated as a baby is a good reason to put your pants on and run through the damn window.
Oh, and one out of 11,000 child boys who are circumcised die from it!
That seems kind of risky too, by the way.
Also, it's a great deal of pain when you have been circumcised and of course your penis with the raw open wound is put into your diaper where the uric acid in your pee and all other kinds of goop is swimming around there.
It's pretty nasty.
With all that kind of stuff as well.
So, you know, if you want to make the case to an adult that they got to go and get a third of their penis skin hacked off, well, you got to give them the facts.
First of all, it will make their penis smaller.
Of course, right? Because it's tight skin pulling back.
There is no evidence, actual evidence, that being circumcised prevents a man from getting an STD, including HIV. Abstinence or safe sex will do it.
So people say the foreskin is unclean, which is like saying, I've got to cut off your arm because your armpits get sweaty.
No, it's not unclean. It's protective.
If you take the foreskin off, the penis is more vulnerable to injury, to abrasion, to desensitization.
It's really not complicated.
You don't need to build a little Meccano set and a whole superstructure of toothpicks to wash the head of your penis underneath your foreskin.
Pull, wash, rinse, done.
Easy peasy.
The American Cancer Society does not recommend circumcision for the prevention of penile.
Cancer. And the foreskin, of course, this is from circumcisiondebate.org.
The foreskin is a sensory organ with thousands of nerves and blood vessels as well as muscular tissue.
It plays an important role in foreplay, sexual activity, and pleasure and ejaculation.
Circumcised men are three to four times more likely to experience erectile dysfunction than intact men.
Now, you don't necessarily have to answer this, but if I were to pose to you, Lyndon, the question, would you rather have a risk of having an orgasm in less than two minutes or not being able to get it up at all?
I'm pretty sure you'd go with the risk of the former rather than the latter.
And that is just really, really important to understand.
In 2012, the American Academy of Pediatrics issued a report.
They said the benefits are not great enough to recommend circumcision for all baby boys.
The benefits of newborn circumcision outweigh the risk.
The true incidence of complications after newborn circumcision is unknown.
Physician groups in Europe, the United Kingdom, and Australia condemn infant and child circumcision.
It's not medically beneficial and violates children's most basic human rights.
Circumcision fails to meet the commonly accepted criteria for the justification of preventive medical procedures in children.
Circumcision causes post-operative pain.
Circumcision can have serious long-term consequences.
Circumcision constitutes a violation of the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of the Child.
Circumcision conflicts with the Hippocratic Oath first do no harm.
Do you know a lot of people die from bacteria that accumulates because they've got gum pockets or receding gum lines or whatever it is, right?
And they swallow this bacteria, can harm their heart and so on.
Does that mean that we should pull the teeth of people?
No, of course not.
We don't remove healthy skin, healthy tissue, part of a healthy organ, because maybe at some point...
I mean, that's not how medicine works.
You work to prevent, you give education, and if there's a problem, you deal with it.
But this idea that we are just...
And fair in mutilating, without anesthetic for the most part, certainly without effective anesthetic, that we are just and fair in mutilating the penises of babies.
That is not right.
There's no one We're good to go.
The self-abuse of masturbation.
There's no way we'd sit there and say, if this wasn't a common practice, if this wasn't something that was commonly accepted.
There's no way we'd sit there and say, ah, you know what needs to go?
A third of the penis skin of the boys when they're babies.
Now, the fact that it's there and happening already for a variety of religious and fundamentalist hysterical reasons, well, that generally tends to be something that That we justify because it's already there.
But we'd never sit there and say, let's start doing this if it wasn't something that was already in play.
All right. So that's my stuff.
I'm certainly happy to hear your response.
All right. There's a lot there.
First of all, what you call mutilation, I call augmentation.
I mean, it's part of the...
No, no, no, no, no. You can't call it augmentation.
No, no, no. You're removing something.
Yeah, but it's part of... You're making it better.
You're making it live up to the objective beauty standard, which is what you would say if somebody...
The objective... I'm sorry to interrupt you when you're just starting, but what are you saying?
The objective beauty standard?
If like 90 plus percent of women prefer it, then it's safe to say that it's part of the objective beauty standard, right?
In the same way that if like most women prefer you to be like muscular and tall...
And have hair and stuff like that, then we can say that these things are basically part of the objective beauty standard.
Oh, so you say that surgery should be performed against people's will if they do not meet some objective beauty standard.
That's a general principle that you have.
It couldn't be just about male penises because that would be very sexist.
So it would be in general, right?
I mean, why would you assume that it's against their will when it's in their best interests?
No, because they're babies.
Of course it's against their will.
They can't give a cent.
And they wouldn't give a cent either if they could.
That's probably true, actually.
But that's part of the good thing about doing it when you're young because the cost is so much lower.
What do you mean the cost?
Well, not only the financial cost, but the pain.
You heal much quicker. There's less risks.
That's why all the doctors recommend to do it in the first year.
Or actually the first six months, right?
So, people always say that...
Sorry to interrupt you again, but you know that stress hormones in babies who are circumcised are higher.
Six months after.
It's like, welcome to the world, we're now sawing off a third of your penis.
You don't think that has an effect on the baby?
Yeah, but we can't say that it's necessarily a negative effect.
It could actually be a positive effect.
Oh my god, you didn't just say that.
For the baby, it's certainly negative, right?
Well, no, not necessarily in the long term.
No, no, for the babies.
Forget the long term. For the babies, it's a horrifying thing.
Well, the babies grow up to be men, though.
It's the same person.
Okay, I will accept that.
So they did a study in 2017 called Understanding Long-Term Effects of Infant Male Circumcision.
They found that the men who were early childhood circumcised had more testosterone and less oxytocin.
So they were lower in empathy and that made them more self-reliant, independent and non-affiliative.
I actually have a theory.
Wait, I'm sorry. So the men who were circumcised ended up with less empathy?
Yeah. And did they adjust that for ethnicity?
Because testosterone levels and empathy are not equally distributed among the races, so it really depends who they tested.
I don't see anything about race from what I've seen on the studies.
Just something to look at. Okay, I think this was...
I'm not sure where this was.
Let me see. Aris University?
Oh, Copenhagen.
Okay, so it was done in Copenhagen, I guess.
I have a theory about that, actually, which is that, like, you know, we have this pathological empathy in our society, this love of victim culture.
And I think of this victim culture when I hear people whinging about circumcision.
And in Europe, they don't circumcise, you know, commonly.
And then they got all these Muslims coming in who are circumcised, raping their women.
The soy boys don't do anything.
They just roll over.
They don't defend their country.
They don't defend their women.
Maybe if they had a little more testosterone, a little less empathy, they'd be able to stick up for their women.
So, anyway, the point is...
I mean, I don't even know what to say to a hypothesis like that.
You understand. It's completely untestable.
99% bullshit, and we're just going to have to move on.
I mean, it's a statement you're making, but I mean, I can't possibly evaluate that in any rational context.
Well, the point is to say that this stress, this cortisol, whatever that the babies get, that it has a negative effect on them, you can't prove that or test that in the same way, right?
Wait, so...
Basically, the infant equivalent of being attacked by a wild animal and having the most sensitive part of your anatomy chewed at and half ripped off your body.
Come on, man. Are you saying that that's not a negative?
For the baby. No.
Well, not when it's got so many benefits to it.
No, no. For the baby.
In the long term. Because the benefits...
You've got data that says there are benefits.
I've got data that says there aren't benefits.
Now, that debate isn't being had about smoking or cancer, right?
So, we got to throw out the, well, there's all these benefits, right?
I mean, what are the benefits to smoking?
That seems like a hard case to make.
What do you mean? Of course there are benefits to smoking in terms of that's why people do it.
Smoking raises testosterone.
Smoking makes you more concentrated.
Alert. Nicotine is a pleasurable drug.
But what I'm saying is that we don't have debates about whether smoking is good for you or bad for you in the long run.
We all have recognized that smoking is very bad for you, right?
And so when we're having debates after so much data about whether Circumcision is good or bad for you, we have to throw out that data.
Like we have to throw out because there's no answer to it.
I mean, certainly I believe the stuff which says, yeah, hacking a third of the penis to get off the baby is pretty bad.
It's terrible and we would never do that to an adult.
Like we'd never find an adult who'd been in a car crash who was unconscious and say, well, that guy's not circumcised.
We'll fix his ribs and we'll cut off a third of his penis skin because he's already out, right?
Because that would be horrible, right?
Now, here's some from a study.
The long-term behavioral consequences of circumcision are underexplored, along with a marked increase of cortisol.
Changes in mother-infant interactions have been observed after circumcision, including disrupted feeding and weaker attachment.
This might lead to a reduction in oxytocin, which in turn increases testosterone availability.
The present research aims to investigate the long-term effects of early infant male circumcision We hypothesize that circumcision might lead to an enhanced male endocrine configuration characterized by low oxytocin and high testosterone levels.
I think this is in support to what you're saying, that there's higher testosterone levels among...
And look, I have no doubt that brutalizing people can produce people with less empathy.
Of course, isn't that the whole point of basic training?
At least how it used to be done in the army?
Yeah, if you brutalize people, you can make them pretty cold-hearted.
In which case, why don't we just beat children every day?
Why don't we just kill their pets in front of them?
Why don't we just commit all kinds of abuse on children in order to toughen them up?
Why would it just be limited to something like circumcision, right?
That's not a particularly... Good argument because we could achieve that so many other ways that wouldn't involve this kind of stuff, right?
Right, but I'm in favor of improved anesthetics and whatever they can do to make it easier on the baby, but the point is that that's not the reason.
You're not doing it to raise the man's testosterone or whatever.
You're doing it so they can be circumcised, so they can have a nice Good sex life with a clean penis and all that.
Please their partner. Less chance of getting AIDS and everything.
This is really just the testosterone thing.
That's just a counter to the idea that this is like having some long-term negative psychological effect.
You can't really say that it is having a long-term negative psychological effect.
Also, I just wanted to say before I forget that when you were talking before, you mentioned that there's like thousands of nerve endings in the penis and that one in 11,000 babies who are circumcised.
I don't know where you got that one in 11,000 number from.
I haven't heard that before, but I know that the thousands of nerve endings in the penis, that's like an anti-circumcision myth that you can't verify with any study.
What do you mean? Okay, so...
I've tried to find the source on that.
Let me just give you... Sorry to interrupt.
Let's just do this one at a time.
So about 1 in 1,000 circumcised boys will die from circumcision-related causes.
1 in 1,000?
Yes, so the...
No. No, no, 1 in 11,000.
Even that, I don't know.
Okay, hang on. Let me finish.
You asked for the source.
The source is D. Bollinger, B-O-L-L-I-N-G-E-R, The article is, Lost Boys, an Estimate of U.S. Circumcision-Related Infant Deaths.
This is from Thimos J. Boyhood Studies, 2010, pages 78 to 90.
And again, you can go to circumcisiondebate.org.
It is reference number 17.
Because you asked for the source.
Yeah, that's fair.
It sounds a bit loose.
Sorry? That study sounds a bit loose.
It's an estimate. It sounds a bit loose.
That's your rebuttal. It sounds a bit like it has a slightly infused Spanish kind of musk to me.
So let's move on to that because I don't know what sounds like.
It's not really an argument. Hey, if you find that the study is not good, then let me know and we'll put out a correction or an update or whatever.
But as far as are you removing...
Or disrupting nerve endings when you slice off a third of the penis skin?
Well, of course you are. That's like axiomatic.
There are... It's one of the most concentrated...
The most concentrated set of nerve endings on the male body.
And you're slicing it up.
So like years ago, I slipped...
While carrying some plates.
And I fell. And I got a tiny little scar on my thumb here.
It kind of opened it up pretty hard.
I had to go and get some stitches and all that.
It's no big deal. Everything works fine.
But right above where the scar is.
I mean, originally it was just completely numb.
Because the nerves had been cut.
But now I can feel a little bit.
I guess it's kind of regenerated over time or whatever.
But that's my thumb, man.
And that's a cut that was stitched up.
Not part of the thumb. I didn't remove a third of my...
Thumb skin, right?
But the idea that it's not going to diminish sensitivity, you can't say, well, circumcision is good because it diminishes sensitivity, but it doesn't get rid of any nerve endings.
Come on. I mean, this is contradictory positions, right?
Well, no. The sensitivity is in the head of the penis.
It's not in the foreskin.
I think the way- No, but the foreskin protects the head of the penis.
Right. And so when the head of the penis is continually exposed to underwear and all this kind of stuff, It loses sensitivity.
Exactly. So all we're saying here is that you're not cutting into like this super sensitive thousands of nerve endings, like special – the foreskin itself is not this like super erogenous thing that – Okay.
So now I know you're not circumcised.
Okay. So you don't know because you don't know, right?
It is. It is.
I'm not circumcised.
It is. And it's part of the essential pleasure of sexuality to have the foreskin move back and forward.
It's easier for the woman because there's less friction.
It's more pleasurable for the man.
I get what you're saying. All I'm saying is that we don't know that there's thousands of nerve endings in the foreskin because no study has ever said that.
That's all I'm saying. Because I've heard that myth and I think you read it off of that, the debate.org or whatever you were reading from before.
And it's just, it's not, you can't Substantiate that claim.
That there's thousands of nerve endings.
Usually 20,000.
So you don't think that there's nerve endings in the foreskin?
I didn't say there's not nerve endings.
I said that there's not this super dense 20,000 nerve endings that the intactivists...
No, I didn't say 20,000. I said the foreskin is a sensory organ with thousands of nerves and blood vessels as well as muscular tissue.
All right. Okay.
Sure. I mean, it could be.
Well, I'm just curious then what...
Number of nerves would be too many to slice off a penis.
If it was 999, is it okay to slice?
If it's a thousand, is it bad?
Is there some number of nerves where it becomes good and moral to slice off that much of the penis?
The point is that when you frame it as having thousands of nerve endings, you make it sound like it's this really great erogenous thing.
Which it is. Okay, you say that now...
I don't even like to bring this up because I don't think it's a good arguing point, but adults who get circumcised by choice, they prefer the sex afterwards more often than not.
I don't like that because it's a self-selected sample.
They chose to get circumcised in the first place, but...
So surveys show that.
So it's hard to say, like, oh, sex is so much better with a foreskin.
When the men, grown men, go and get circumcised, they say, yeah, it's better without it.
Yeah, you're right. It is a self-selecting group, and most men who get circumcised do so because they have some problem with their foreskin relative to the sexual act.
So the fact that the sex improves when their pediment is removed, of course, I understand.
But as you point out, it is not an objective group, and so we'll have to leave that one to one side.
Right, right. But I mean, they're the only people who have had it both ways.
And it's, by the way, it's the same with women.
They did this study in Africa, and the women, after their adult partners got circumcised, overwhelmingly preferred sex after circumcision.
Wait, so the women whose partners got circumcised?
Yeah. Okay, do you have any kind of source or title for that that I can look at that?
Because that seems... Yeah, definitely.
I actually have it right here.
Can you put the link into Skype?
Yeah, I can do that.
The study is called Sexual Satisfaction of Women Partners of Circumcised Men in a Randomized Trial of Male Circumcision in Raki, Uganda.
While you're getting that, I just wanted to do so.
The 20,000 nerve-ending data is from, and I quote, H.C. Bazet, B-A-Z-E-T-T et al., And the title is Depth Distribution and Probable Identification in the Previews of Sensory End Organs Concerned in Sensations of Temperature and Touch.
Thermometric Conductivity.
This is from the Archives of Neurology and Psychiatry.
Pages 489 to 517, that's from 1932.
I think they could pretty much count nerves in 1932, and it's kind of tragic that it hasn't been updated, but that's where that number is from.
Again, you and I can't evaluate these things on the fly, or maybe even at all, but just for those.
We'll put that link in the show notes, but that's where that data comes from.
Anyway, you were going to give me the study in Skype?
There we go. ResearchGate.
All right, Joseph Kagai.
Sorry? Yeah, I was just going to give you the basic facts.
There's about 40% of the women thought that sex improved, about 3% thought it was worse after circumcision, and the rest were indifferent.
The overwhelming majority of women, 97.1 report either no change or improved sexual satisfaction after their male partner was circumcised.
And it's 455 women, so that's not a lot.
It's pretty good. It's a pretty good amount.
Yeah. A lot of changes.
Yeah. So it said 39.8% reported an improvement in sexual satisfaction after their partner's circumcision.
Yeah. Don't even know.
Don't even know. Again, I can't dismiss it because, you know, I can't evaluate it one way or another.
But again, I would say that if...
You're with a woman who is happier after your penis has been hacked up.
That's a pretty cold-hearted woman, right?
But I mean, is a guy allowed to want his woman to get breast implants if she doesn't have big breasts?
Is a guy allowed to...
You're allowed to want anything.
Is it particularly good to say to a woman, I want you to go to get beach volleyballs inserted under your titskin because I like big boobs that don't balance.
I mean, I guess you can ask anything you want, but it's cold-hearted.
It's cold-hearted to say to your...
Woman, you're not sexy enough for me unless you have breast implants.
That is cold.
That's mechanical. That's physical.
If you want your sexual partner to enjoy sex with you more, get better at sex.
Read up a little. Read some Kama Sutra.
Figure out some X, Ys, and Zs.
You can find ways to get better at sex.
Be better at communicating about sex.
Ask what she likes. Tell her what you like.
Figure out what works for you.
There's lots of ways to get better at sex that don't involve a little hacksaw.
Yeah, I mean, I agree.
Like I said, I don't think that this is a crucial thing.
I wouldn't recommend for men to get circumcised because I think that the risks and the The recovery time for adults and everything, it doesn't make it worth it unless you have a medical reason.
But I just think that for babies, it's a little snip.
They heal in a couple days and then they're good to go and they have these benefits.
It just seems like a reasonable thing.
And the last thing, I pretty much got all my points out here.
The last thing I want to say about it is that Part of my problem with this conversation is that the way people who do choose to circumcise their sons get characterized as benevolent.
You use the term disposable males.
Like, oh, we're doing this because you're disposable, because we don't care about you.
I see it as something you would do because you view it in their best interests.
They should make that decision for themselves as adults.
You can't say...
I'm going to make this decision for you because it is irreversible.
And 1 in 11,000 are going to die.
I've had a call with a guy some months ago whose penis was destroyed by a botched circumcision.
Completely his life was destroyed.
His life was destroyed.
And if this means to avoid that kind of risk, to avoid that exertion and assertion of power, to say to a man, We must hack away at your genitals so that women might like them a little better to look at?
Excuse me, a male penis is not a piece of art.
Yeah, but if they like it better, they're more likely to put it in their mouth, Stefan.
No, you find a woman who has empathy and doesn't want to see a penis that's been mutilated.
You sound like an idealist, you know.
Oh, you don't have to do this.
It's not an argument. It's an edge.
I'm saying you're going to have an edge as a circumstance.
Hang on a second here. I'm sorry to interrupt because, you know, we're not having an argument.
You're just making names, right?
So, here's something interesting regarding that circumcision.
Now, I'm always a little bit concerned when women's opinions in Uganda are asked because I'm not sure that they have a huge amount of independence, right?
So, here's something that's interesting.
Let's see here. In each of the above examples, the outcome may have been assisted by the Jewish and Muslim communities who vigorously and publicly opposed attempted bans on circumcision, arguing that anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic bias was responsible.
Sorry, what are we talking about right now?
The study about Uganda and sexual satisfaction increased, right, after circumcision.
So you're saying that Jews and Muslims...
No, no.
What I'm saying is that, I don't know, if you have, let's say, a Muslim husband in Uganda, and you don't have a lot of, say, independence or female rights or choices, and you live in a society where wife-beating is pretty common, I'm just wondering if she's entirely free.
It's not a rebuttal. I'm just saying...
My understanding is that the reason they're getting circumcised as males is because circumcision wasn't really common in that culture.
But it's this initiative that the West has been pushing to fight the AIDS epidemic.
Yeah, I get it. No, I get it.
But they don't want...
So I'm just...
I'm not sure that Islam...
Is a huge factor in the results of that study.
You'd have to make a little bit more of a connection.
I'm just reading a comment. I'm just putting out a comment that says, the outcome may have been assisted by the Jewish and Muslim communities vigorously and publicly opposed attempted bans, I assume, on circumcision, saying that it's anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic.
So I'm just pointing it out.
It's not absolutely an argument.
I'm just saying that it is a possibility.
Now, you don't have the right to remove healthy tissue from babies.
You don't have the right. You don't have the right to remove healthy tissue from female babies or male babies.
You don't have the right to remove breasts or teeth or labias or you name it.
You don't have the right to remove a circumcision.
You don't have the right to remove toes because you might stub your toe or get toe cancer.
You just don't have the right for preventative medicine to...
Destroy healthy skin and healthy nerve endings because of the possibility of something in the future.
Excuse me, I don't want to have anything to do with a woman who would rather that I be hacked.
I'm sorry. If that's the prize, it's like, no, I don't want a woman like that.
I'm sorry. I don't want a woman who says, well, my aesthetic preference is much more important than your bodily integrity.
It's like, to hell with you, woman. Go find some guy who's been hacked and say, well, that's prettier to me because you got the heart of an ice age.
There are a few women out there for whom it's a deal breaker, but for most women, it's probably a preference.
And that's 90% of women.
So again, this is why I say you sound like an idealist because you're saying you're asking me to go against my entire life experience with the data I haven't even seen the source of.
So it's not going to work. Well, that's a study from 1978 where they just – an American study where the women 90 plus percent said that they preferred circumcise.
So you're saying that you should just reduce – All right.
All right. Let's have a look. What's the source?
Oh, I don't have that.
I thought that was like kind of common knowledge.
All right, hang on.
90% of women prefer...
All right, let's see.
Let's see if we can find it because, you know, this seems to be, it seemed to be, I hate to say hung up or well hung on this or whatever, right?
But let's see here.
Yes. Iowa City, Paul Williams, MD, Marvel Williams, Women's Preference in Penile Circumcision and Sexual Partners is the name of the study.
What's the name of the study?
I'm linking it on Skype right now.
There you go. So, it's 71% to 83% in this, but, or what does it say, 89% of the sample had their son circumcised.
Let's see here. Regardless of maternal choice or attractive, okay, of 145 new mothers of sons responding to this survey.
So, this is not a blind survey?
Yeah, yeah, that's true, yeah.
Okay, so this is mothers...
Who are responding. In other words, we assume it's mothers who've had their children or their son circumcised, right?
Yeah, 89% of the sample had their son circumcised.
Yeah, well, I mean, it's America in the 70s, so it was very...
Oh, it says 2015.
No, it was published. Oh, published online, 2015.
Yeah, the date should be on here somewhere, but I remember it being like 77, no, 88.
It's up at the top, volume 14, 1988, journal of...
So, 88.
So, 30 years ago. Still more common.
So, 30 years ago.
And this is not about women, this is about moms, right?
And this is moms who have voluntarily chosen to respond to this survey.
The vast majority, almost 9 out of 10, had had their sons circumcised.
So this is in no way, shape, or form an objective study.
This is a self-delected group of women who overwhelmingly had their children circumcised.
Come on. Yes, that's true. This is not 90% of women, dude.
This is 90% of women who are responding to, do you like circumcision?
Who had their boys circumcised 30 years ago.
You don't think you're stretching the shit out of this one?
I mean, it seems like most women prefer it.
No, no, no, no. Come on, man.
Don't give me that bullshit.
I'm pushing back against the data you cited with great confidence without giving me any sense of the limitations.
You don't think 30 years ago, a self-selected group of women...
Almost all of whom had their boys circumcised are talking about circumcision.
You think that's some general survey here?
I mean, no, I suppose not, but I don't have a better...
I don't have a general survey.
This is what I got. I know.
This is what I got, you know what I'm saying? But here's the fact is that you kind of snowed me on this one, right?
Did you know the limitations of this or did you just skim it and say, oh, it's all right?
First of all, you said 90% and it's actually 71 to 83%.
So you bullshitted me on that.
You said 90% and it's actually 71 to 83%.
You didn't tell me it was decades old and you didn't tell me it was women who self-selected and that most of those women had their boys circumcised.
Of course, women who get their boys circumcised prefer a circumcised penis for whatever weird reason or maybe it's whatever, right?
Of course. Of course.
It's like saying, well, you had your children circumcised.
Do you approve of circumcision?
Wow! 100% of the people I asked approve of circumcision.
I mean, that's not a study.
Well, they say why they preferred and stuff like that.
But the reason I said 90% was because I believe that's what it was for oral sex in the actual...
I've seen the... It won't open here.
You have to have... But I've seen it.
I've read it somewhere else.
And it was... They showed the answers to each question and for oral sex it was like 90%.
That's the big one.
Again, when you're circumcising your son, what you're doing is you're promising them a future of better blowjobs.
Okay, hang on. Even among women having sexual experience only with uncircumcised partners, half preferred uncircumcised penises for sexual partners.
Half preferred uncircumcised penises for sexual partners.
Yeah. Well, that wasn't the data you gave me.
Half. You said 90% prefer circumcised.
First of all, the study says 71 to 83% and you never mentioned that half of these women preferred uncircumcised penises for sexual partners.
It's not. That's among the women with only experience with uncircumcised.
I know. I'm just saying, half preferred uncircumcised penises, which means that half of them don't want a circumcised penis.
Half! Yeah, but they've never tried it.
I don't care! I've never tried being hit by a train.
That doesn't mean I'm 50% likely to do it.
71% to 83% preferred circumcised penises for each sexual activity listed.
It's not half. It's 71% to 83%.
Read further down. Even among women having sexual experience with uncircumcised partners, only half preferred uncircumcised penises for sexual partners.
Right. The ones who haven't experienced the circumcised.
But the total of 145 women surveyed was 71 to 83%.
And you understand.
When you say 90% of women and it turns out to be 71 to 83% of 145 of self-selected women who had their kids circumcised, that's a bullshit correlation to make and it's highly irresponsible for you to spread that information.
Highly irresponsible. Because you're getting kids' penises hacked up by spreading bullshit numbers like this, man.
This is highly irresponsible.
You need to give the full context of the study, you need to talk about its limitations, and you need to talk about the data that runs counter to the shit you want to believe.
Don't go around spreading this kind of stuff because people are going to listen to you.
You're credible, you're vocal, you're verbal, you're dexterous verbally and so on.
People are going to listen to you and they're going to cut up their baby's penises.
I believe that it's in their best interest to do that.
But you are bullshitting with the data.
No, not really. Yes, you are.
You told me 90%.
The 90% number sticks in my head because I care a lot about blowjobs.
I linked you the study as soon as you asked for it.
I'm not trying to hide anything here.
Okay. Were you right about 90%?
It was fudged a little bit because if you look at the general answer, it's whatever it is, 70 to 83 or whatever it was.
71 to 83. Yeah.
But 50% prefer uncircumcised penises for sexual partners.
So, I mean, if you're reducing the pool of women who are going to prefer your penis down to, like, 17% instead of 10%, or if we're going to be charitable, like, 29%, is that still, like, a good...
Is that still something worth doing for the sake of some kind of principle that isn't really...
Like, some, you know, oh, bodily integrity or whatever, but, you know...
When you're talking about hacking off healthy...
Tissue. You wouldn't say the same thing for a kid that had like webbed fingers or webbed toes or a cleft lip or whatever that we have to respect their bodily autonomy and we can't perform cosmetic surgery on these kids.
No, but come on. That's a deviation. The foreskin is the norm.
You can't. You're desperate to prop up this bullshit narrative you have, man.
And I'm sorry to be so harsh, but we are talking about the bodily integrity of babies.
You're comparing a normal, natural, healthy foreskin to a cleft palate?
Are you kidding me? I'm making a point about bodily autonomy.
And you can't really use deviation as an argument because then you would have to be in favor of circumcision if circumcision was the norm, right?
No. The deviation is hacking off part of the body.
Right, but I'm saying...
The norm is to be born with a foreskin.
That's what has evolved.
That's to protect the head of the penis.
That's to provide additional pleasure during intercourse for both the man and the woman.
The reason we fix the cleft lip is because they won't look like everyone else, right?
So that's why it's a deviation.
If everybody was circumcised, you would have to circumcise them.
So I just don't like that argument.
I don't know who the hell...
I mean, you hear all these stories, well, you're going to look different in the locker room.
No guy is going to look at another guy's penis in the locker room.
Well, very few.
And if they do, they're going to keep it to themselves.
Never had a problem.
Never had a comment.
Never had a complaint.
Never had a hesitation. It's all made up nonsense.
Yeah, I mean, you're in Canada, too, where it's less common, so I don't think it...
But no, I agree. I agree.
I'm not saying that you should do it so that they look the same in the locker room.
I agree that that's a silly argument.
I'm just making a point about deviation and all that, that if you were going to use that as an argument, it seems like you would have to be in favor of it if it was the norm.
No, but there are specific issues that arise out of something like a cleft palate, right?
So you have trouble eating as a baby, right?
You can't suck properly.
The roof of the mouth is not fully formed.
You get ear infections. You get hearing loss.
You can get speech and language delay because the opening of the- Hang on, hang on, hang on.
You brought up this shit. Let me respond.
Right? So speech and language delay, the opening of the roof of the mouth and the lip muscle function may be decreased, can lead to a delay in speech or abnormal speech.
As a result of these abnormalities, teeth may not develop normally, orthodontic treatment may be required, so yeah, the baby can half starve to death, get ear infections, hearing loss, speech and language delay, and massive dental problems.
That's not the same as having a foreskin, dude.
I'm saying if you had a minor cleft lip that was just a cosmetic issue, you would still fix it as a cosmetic.
Also, if they fixed Kevin Costner's webbed feet, he wouldn't have beat the smokers in Waterworld.
All right.
Well, I think on that note, we'll move on.
But I appreciate the debate.
I'm just telling people... That you need to design your parenting for what things are going to look like in 20 years.
Because 20 years, your kids are going to look at you and your sons are going to look at you and this circumcision stuff is horrible.
It is a mutilation. It is a violation of bodily integrity.
It goes against the Hippocratic Oath and it is terrible all around.
And your kids are going to look at you as more data comes in, as more facts come in, as more of this nonsense like it prevents STDs and all of that and women prefer it and all of these lies.
They're going to diminish. They're going to fall away.
But the circumcision is forever.
Cannot be reversed. Cannot be stopped.
History will vindicate me.
Yeah, we'll see. I absolutely guarantee you you'll be wrong about that.
But once more, I do appreciate the debate and the chance to talk about these issues.
Thank you, Lyndon. We'll move on to the next call.
Thank you, Stefan. Have a good night. Right up next, we have Zedd.
Zedd wrote in and wanted to do something of a mock debate, taking the position of, Do Asian Americans owe their economic prosperity to African American civil rights struggles in the 1960s?
Can the debt to the latter be repaid by giving them more college admission spots at the expense of the former?
That's from Zedd. Hello, Zedd.
How you doing? I'm doing well.
Wishing you love and peace, Stefan.
Thank you. I'm sorry that you had to be in the last of the alphabetical lineups as a child.
That is tough.
Well, you know, it's a pseudonym because, you know, where I live, it's dangerous to be on the right.
Oh, boy. You live on the planet.
All right. Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, I know I initially proposed this as a mock debate, but I thought about taking the other position and I kind of had this desire to sort of vomit.
So instead, I just kind of wanted to play it straight and kind of...
Or to, you know, bring up some of the arguments that I've run into kind of debating leftist friends on this topic, if that's okay.
Yeah, whatever you like. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so let's see.
I think, you know, so a little backdrop to why I'm asking this question, because, you know, I'm East Asian, ethnically, and...
So you're what? Oh, you're East Asian?
East Asian, yes, yes, yes.
From where? Sorry?
Where, from where? Oh, East Asian Chinese heritage.
Okay, got it. Yeah, yeah.
And so, you know, the common question that comes up among friends, you know, well, if there is systemic racism, why are East Asian and Jews on average, you know, more prosperous than whites, right?
Well, and also indigenous or Native Americans are also wealthier than whites on average.
Huh. Casino!
Ka-ching! And treaties and welfare and you name it.
Right, right, right, right. Yeah, and I'd say that the East Asian community is...
Fairly. There's a left-leaning contingent.
There's also a right-leaning contingent as well.
I'm more on the right.
The people I debate with are more on the left.
The East Asians on the left, they'll complain about racism from whites or there's this bamboo ceiling that we're facing in our careers and we have to You know, somehow, you know, address that.
Hang on, Zed. Sorry to interrupt you.
I'm getting a clicking. And if there's, you know, one thing I will not accept from an East Asian, it's problems with technology.
Like, I can't have... I can't...
I've got to go with the cliche.
I can't have that. Yeah, no problem.
Just if you can hold the mic still or something, that'd be great.
Sure, sure, sure. Can you hear me now here?
Yeah, it's great. Excellent.
Yeah, yeah. So, the East Asians on the left, they all complain about Racism from whites or the bamboo ceiling that they're facing in their careers.
And then, of course, for folks like me on the right, I was like, well, okay, yeah, you may encounter some racism in your life, but you have to watch out for the really pernicious racism that can affect your career, like getting into universities and those kinds of situations.
Oh, you mean like the affirmative action for blacks that diminishes East Asian opportunities in higher education?
Right, right. Yeah, like what's happening with Harvard and the situation involving that lawsuit where the personality traits of Asians were marked lower by the back office admissions people, even when the people who actually did the interviews were giving Asians reasonable marks, high marks on those subjective traits.
Yeah. Yeah, of course, admissions should be neutralized by race and by gender.
Of course, you should be given a number and admissions should be neutralized by race and by gender.
But of course, people don't want to do that because that would reveal the IQ differences and you name it, right?
And it would be tougher. So, of course, everybody wants to start fudging stuff because, again, they consider all group differences to be the result of bigotry.
Yeah, and this sort of...
The desire by the left to play with the numbers here, that kind of shows up also recently where I think Mayor de Blasio of New York City Wanted to get rid of or diminish the role of the admissions test for the elite public schools.
Of course, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, because what is that?
Because if they only rely on that, that is essentially – that is an IQ test in the end, right?
Well, they should just do an IQ test.
Forget everything else. They should just do an IQ test and then bypass university and go work for someone because it's all – the IQ is all that really matters.
The G, IQ and personality, intelligence and personality as a whole is what matters.
Yeah, so there's...
So that's sort of, you know, East Asians are right.
They're wary of that.
And also, and all these...
And the term baizuwa, I don't know if you've heard of that.
Now, this is not coined by Chinese Americans.
What's the word? Baizuwa.
It's Chinese for white left.
It's the... It literally means white left, and it's the term used to describe social justice warriors or progressives.
And this term was coined by the Chinese internet, because actually in mainland China, there's actually a lot of Chinese netizens who are really kind of pro-Trump, and they appreciate his lack of political correctness.
And they'll mock the Baizhou.
In the United States for, you know, holding such ridiculous positions or freaking out about what's going on in the country.
Right, right. Yeah.
And in what way do they view whites?
And again, I know we're talking in generalities.
It's not all these Asians, of course.
But those who do, what do they say is the issue with whites?
Why do they perceive whites would be racist and how does it manifest?
Are we talking about the...
The ones on the left who perceive that they're on the receiving end of white racism and things like that?
Well, whoever. Maybe it's on the left, maybe it's on the right, but what are the general – because I don't hear a lot about that.
We may have over the past while heard a little bit from the black community about the issues they have with whites, but I've not heard much from the East Asian community.
So what are the major issues that they feel prove the hypothesis of – Anti-East Asian white racism.
Okay, so I can think of a couple of examples that I've read, which I don't particularly agree with.
These are examples coming from the West.
Oh, no, no, I'm not saying what you agree with. I'm just like, just channel the resentment or whatever.
Yeah, sure. So I recall, and the name escapes me right now, but it was written by a couple of professors from Southern California University.
I forget which one.
And they were talking about How there is a bamboo ceiling because, you know, even though Asians on average get higher grades, but when it gets to careers, they can't get beyond a certain, like, they tend not to get beyond a certain management level, right? Yeah, like head of research, not CXO, right?
Right, right, right, right.
And then there's occasionally are anecdotes of people...
There was one time, I read a New York Times article, it was by a Chinese-American author who was describing an experience prior to the 2016 election where a well-dressed white woman was saying, like, go back to your country, you know, and this was in New York City.
And it's like, well, you know, and so that's the kind of, oh, and actually I can think of examples where like my friends, they'll be at a concert, An old guy kind of like kicks, you know, his wife in the back of the chair and then they'll say, oh, yeah, well, it was because he was racist.
And I just tell my friend, like, well, maybe he's just an asshole.
This guy is an asshole.
It's probably just, you know, we're quick to assign racial motives to these kinds of things.
And it's just... They got one third hand account of somebody who might have said something on the street and a guy who kicked a chair.
Come on, you got to give me better racism than that.
You know, whites are pretty good at stuff.
You know, if we're all so racist, you'd think we'd be better at it.
Like, we'd be more – you'd see it more, right?
I mean, whites don't build cities and hide them behind mirages, right?
So, come on, give me more.
Like, what are they going to say about this racism?
Oh, God. You know, it's mostly that.
You know, it's mostly these personal anecdotes of, you know, just a I've experienced that from black people, actually. Oh, yeah.
Sorry, Zed. You're not allowed to say that because it disturbs the narrative.
We're just going to have to erase that from the internet because that goes against the narrative.
Well, yeah. I went to public schools as a youngster and these were schools that were majority black.
Growing up, I would get bullied in school.
It's like, oh, you're carrying too many books and then my books would get knocked on the floor.
Do you mean by the black kids or just by other kids?
By the black kids. Boy, and I hate to point out the very deep meaning behind all of that.
You're carrying too many books.
I'm going to knock them on the floor.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
No, it was that.
Hey, hey, hey! This is library!
Yeah, no. And I mean, I remember...
You know, just being called out, it's like, oh, Chinese, Chinese.
It's like, yeah, why are you calling out the fact that I'm Chinese?
It's like, why is that so notable? But you were born in America, right?
I was, yes. So that's interesting.
Is Chinese an ethnicity or the country you're born in?
I mean, I guess in my, well, that's why I'm pretty, you know, I'll say, you know, I'm ethnically Chinese, you know.
Yeah, of course. And it's interesting, you know, it's always the question that gets asked, you know, if I go as a white guy with a white wife to Japan and have a child in Japan, is my child Japanese?
Hmm. See, when you have a monoculture, like a lot of East Asian countries, right?
You look at China, you look at South Korea, North Korea too, I guess.
You look at... Japan and so on, it's mono-ethnic, right?
It's ethnically homogenous.
So then the question is, are you that nationality if you're born there?
It's kind of confusing, right?
Like you can say American, you're born in America, you're American.
If I'm born in China, as a blonde, blue-eyed, white guy, am I Chinese?
It kind of short-circuits people a lot, right?
Whereas, it's not the same in the West.
This is why people get mad, and they say, well, you got Africa for Asia, or you got Africa for Africans, you got, you know, Asia for Asians, but white countries for everyone.
You know, it's not really a two-way thing, right?
No, no, it isn't.
And, you know, I think through listening to your podcast, like, I've become...
More sympathetic to the plight that white people are experiencing these days.
You know, I used to be more of the, like, oh, those white people, you know, kind of...
This is back, like, you know, a few years ago when I was...
Wait, all those white people are what?
You can tell me. I'm not going to get offended.
I'm just... All those racist white people and stuff like that.
But, you know, that's when I was on the left.
You know, I was really buying into that, those identity politics and that, you know, that victimhood narrative and all that stuff.
But, you know... After I got red-pilled, it's like, oh my god.
It's so much clearer that, like, look, America is a unique place, founded on old Western traditions, more free than most societies.
And it was British and Dutch people overwhelmingly.
White British and Dutch people overwhelmingly that formed the backbone of American migration, certainly up until the mid-19th century.
Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They created a society that is pretty nice to live in, right?
It's better than my immediate ancestors getting killed in communist China.
It's the best. We simply know that from the footprints.
Which way are the footprints going?
Some of it's the best because of freedom and some of it's the best because of lack of freedom for people who can come squat on welfare and so on.
But anyway, go on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely. Absolutely. So, this...
Brings me back to...
What were we just talking about?
Yeah, so the racism I experienced was of...
Well, was from other ethnicities, right?
I personally didn't experience much racism from white people.
I mean, you might get questions like, are you Chinese or Japanese or what?
But that's curiosity. That's not racism.
Yeah, you know, and I think...
Yeah, yeah. People who ask me where I'm born, I mean, I have an accent, you know?
Well, you have a particular physiology on your face, you know?
I mean, people are going to be curious.
It doesn't mean that they think any less of you.
It's interest, you know?
Hey, Steph, where's your accent from?
Hey, Zed, where's your ethnicity from?
It's a conversation, you know?
Yeah, and I think that's the healthy way to view it.
But unfortunately, I think you have some on the left who view asking about the origins as a As a way to suggest that you don't belong or you're so foreign that, you know, I have to know about how foreign you are.
No, come on. The blacks say, don't call us black.
Call us African-American because it's really important where we're from and you've got to respect that.
And it's like, wait, what are you asking me where I'm from for?
Really? I kind of learned the opposite, that black people prefer to be called black.
I mean, that's... Well, maybe I heard it from somewhere else, but it's just more straightforward.
I mean, you're not going to say to Nigerian that immigrates to America.
It's like, oh, you're African-American.
It's like, no, I'm African-American, right?
Oh, right, right, right. Yeah.
So, yeah, that kind of zooming back at 10,000 feet, you know, among East Asians, you know, there are those on the left, there's those on the right, and the question of You know, and really, this is really getting to the question of college admissions as well.
And, you know, the fundamental question, and this goes back to the original question, you know, do Asian Americans owe their economic prosperity to the African Americans' struggle in the civil rights movement?
Nope. And can that debt be...
And can the debt to the latter be repaid by giving them more college admissions spots?
And we can break that down a little further.
But first... I wanted to pose a riddle to you that has been posed to me by some of my leftist friends.
Well, it's a hypothetical scenario.
Let's say you have to fill one last admission spot for your university, and you've got two candidates with the same measurables, same test scores and grades, same types of extracurricular activities, but one is white.
But the people to fill it, one is a white man, the other is an underrepresented minority.
So who do you admit the choices are A, the white man, or B, the underrepresented minority?
So what would your answer be to that?
Well, I call bullshit on the whole question.
First of all, it's saying that everyone's exactly the same.
Like, they're completely identical, which is impossible.
It's impossible for two people to be...
Even identical twins are different, right?
So it's impossible for two people to be completely identical.
But even if we say that they're completely identical, you do it in a racially blind way, which is you flip a coin.
Or if you really want to punish the black person, you put the black person in college.
And if you really want to punish the Asian person, you put the Asian person in college.
So that they can get a lot of useless indoctrination and end up massively in debt for economically useless degrees, worse than economically useless, economically negative degrees.
So, you know, I don't think that the question is even valid.
It's one of these... Ridiculous.
You're hanging from a flagpole.
You kick in the window. Oh, so you don't respect property rights.
And it's like this, you know, you're the last person on a lifeboat and there's only one squid between you and the cat.
You know, like this, I mean, these situations that never occur.
People aren't worth it.
And of course, the best thing to do is to anonymize by ethnicity and gender all applications so that you can't tell.
I totally agree with your take on that.
And the thing is, when I got that question, first I was offended because I was being presented with a false choice.
And I thought, well...
Why not admit both, right?
Because if you're in a real life university, you've got a little flexibility.
No, but at some point you can't admit everyone, right?
True, true. So given that constraint, flip a coin was definitely one answer I proposed.
They were not happy with that. And then my answer after that was, don't admit either of them.
Because this is the last ranking spot In the classes you're trying to fill, they're not as good as the others.
You'll be fine without that last spot.
So that was my final answer.
Right. But we know from affirmative action that blacks have been promoted into colleges where they can't succeed.
And as you know, 40% of people who start college end up in debt, lives ruined, bombing out, never get their degree.
I mean, it's a real disaster. And because blacks of less ability have been put into college, they're diluting the value of degrees for blacks as a whole, which means that even the vastly talented and brilliant blacks Are lost in the shuffle of people who were there because of affirmative action.
That means that smarter blacks recognize this as a problem and are intending to stay away from university because it's not worth it as much to them because they get mixed in with.
The employer who sees the black coming from a particular university and he sees an East Asian coming from that particular university, what's he gonna do?
Well, if it was objective, he'd say, well, they're both equally smart, they both got the same marks, but because of affirmative action, he's going to look at that black and he's going to look at the East Asian and he's going to say, well, I don't know.
I know that the East Asian is probably better than average because he's been marked, you know, the marks went down to, were artificially lowered, so he's super smart.
The black could have been, he could be really talented, could be smarter than the East Asian, but if I had to bet money, the black could be there because of affirmative action.
So who's he going to hire? See, this affirmative action is just this snapshot, like there's no continuity in life, like people don't make decisions based on trends.
Employers are going to look at that and to be responsible to their investment, to their company, to their shareholders, to their employees, to their customers, they have to choose the best person.
Putting underqualified people into a degree, especially if it was all redheads, you know, we've got to have this many redheads in a degree.
And then you end up taking redheads who are less able, and you kind of push them through, and you mark them differently, and you mark them up, and then you push them out into the workforce.
Well, now the talented redheads can't be distinguished from the less talented redheads, so redheads as a whole don't get hired.
It's terrible. For blacks, affirmative action.
It's terrible. Well, I guess it's super great for the East Asians who get through because, you know, they've gone through so many hurdles.
It's quite something, right?
So, it's, you know, if you have to hire someone to climb, haul a whole bunch of stuff up a cliff, and you see one guy who went up the cliff in a balloon, another guy who went up with a 20 pound weight on each arm, you know who's the stronger person, right?
So, it is terrible.
So, who should we admit? It's like...
How about we just keep it neutral and that gives the greatest benefit to the talented blacks and the greatest benefit to the talented and brilliant Hispanics and that makes getting that degree more valuable for everyone.
But right now with all the social engineering we're stripping the value of the degree away from the brilliant blacks, the brilliant Hispanics And it is very, very unfair because employers have to look at the facts.
I mean, I guess there's some political correctness.
There's some rewards for diversity hires and so on.
But particularly small business, which generate a lot of jobs and usually aren't subject to those constraints, you have to judge based on ability.
You don't have any room for error.
Yeah. Definitely.
Definitely. Another talking point that I got or another example that's kind of foisted...
upon me in these debates is where they'll say, well, you've got this, you know, University of New Hampshire, super white university.
You know, we got to make it more diverse.
And really, that's code for got to make it less white.
But then I have to tell him like, well, okay, New Hampshire, okay, so the University of New Hampshire has something like a student population of 80 to 90% white.
All right. Can you guess what the population of New Hampshire is?
80 to 90%? 93.9.
Right. Whites are underrepresented.
Yeah. According to demographics.
Sure. Sometimes they're not even looking at the context where It's like, yeah, well, it's serving the state.
The state is mostly this way.
Wouldn't you expect it to be reflecting?
No, sorry to interrupt.
No, I'm sorry. I wouldn't expect it to be representative because I understand normalized by IQ. So, given that East Asians have a higher IQ than whites on average, I would expect there to be a higher proportion of East Asians, particularly in the fields where spatial reasoning, which is kind of your guys' specialty corner, so to speak, right?
Like engineering, maybe some physics and so on, but the spatial reasoning stuff is really important.
I would expect there to be fewer whites as a whole and more East Asians because I know what normalized by IQ means.
Right, right.
Yeah, so all that, and I'm sorry for taking you on this detour from the main, from the original main question.
You're very polite. But I guess then, you know, going back to the main question where, you know, the Asian American economic prosperity, you know, is it due to African American struggle in the civil rights movement?
And I think that that first part of the question Kind of alludes to the freeloader problem that people on the left seem to be so concerned about, which is that, well, you see… Oh, we struggled, you benefited, it's not fair.
Yeah, exactly. And I wanted to see if there's a crisp way to address that.
Well, if the civil rights movement produces wealth, why aren't African Americans wealthy?
The answer I would get would be, well, because systemic racism.
Well, no, because systemic racism would be whites racist against all non-whites.
So if a civil rights struggle produces the opportunity for great wealth or produces great wealth, why are only Asian Americans cashing in and not African Americans?
But you see, this is the leftist would say, but the Asians didn't have a legacy of You know, hundreds of years of slavery in America.
So the idea is that people who've suffered from historical injustice can't overcome it.
Uh... Did Asian Americans ever suffer any systemic injustice in America?
Pretty sure they did. I don't think a lot of those railways built themselves and I don't think the internment camps were a particularly great thing for anyone involved.
And if you look at historical injustice, you can look at the regular pogroms and beatings and expulsions and thefts and expropriations and imprisonment of Jews throughout Europe,
for the last couple thousand years, off and on, you know, the killers of Jesus, you know, like the crazy conspiracy theories, and Jews went through the Holocaust, for God's sakes, you know, along with other homosexuals and intellectuals and, you know, freedom thinkers. The Jews went through the Holocaust, fled to America with nothing, after more than a thousand years of persecution.
Right, close to two thousand years of persecution on and off.
It came to America with nothing.
It took them four years to achieve income parity with whites.
Four years.
So if the argument is that historical injustice renders an entire group of people eternally crippled economically, we have to ask why it does not apply to other groups that have also Been enslaved and also been genocided and also been subjugated and also been run off and murdered,
right? Why is it only this one particular group that cannot, even with the approval and affirmation and consent of the majority of people, even who can have a black guy to be president, why can they not do it?
It's not the legacy of slavery.
There were a lot of people who were slaves or close to slaves who weren't black who have done relatively okay.
If you look at the Dark Ages, the British people or a lot of the Western European people were, you know, slavish, right?
I mean, they were serfs. They were bought and sold with the land.
They had no particular freedom.
Their occupations were determined for them ahead of the time.
They could be beaten or imprisoned virtually at will.
And so you had, for longer than a couple of hundred years, the grinding subjugation of the average European peasant for a thousand years after the fall of Rome in many places.
And then, look at that.
They got freedom and tickety-boo.
You know, you get the agricultural revolution, you get the enlightenment, you get the industrial revolution, and boom!
You know, there's an overcoming.
Of these things. The Japanese people themselves bombed, as I mentioned earlier, from end to end.
China had horrible communism inflicted on them through the State Department, through the communists in the State Department, through the funding of Chairman Mao or the soon-to-be Chairman Mao over Chiang Kai-shek.
Because they called him an agrarian reformer rather than a bloodthirsty totalitarian communist who was going to kill and starve and murder tens of millions of Chinese who never asked for communism in any way, shape or form.
I like to call the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution just like very grievous self-inflicted wounds that the Chinese inflicted on themselves.
Yeah, well, but communism is inflicted upon the Chinese people against their will by the American State Department under direction of the communists working in there as was pointed out repeatedly by McCarthy, which is why McCarthy must be forever vilified.
And so if you look at that, It's hard to say that the only possible reason that blacks are doing badly is because of the legacy Of slavery.
Because there are many, many groups in history who were subjugated and conquered.
I mean, the Greeks were conquered by the Turkish Muslims for 400 years.
Subjugated, ground down, taxed into oblivion, very few freedoms, beaten, thrown in jail.
Not even third-class citizens.
400 years.
Roughly equivalent to the length of slavery.
And... The other thing we can do, of course, is we can compare American blacks to other blacks around the world.
And wouldn't you know it, we find that American blacks are by far the richest blacks in the world.
Yeah.
Well, and that kind of transitions me to the second part, which is that, you know, could that...
Well, I think we've established that there is no debt, you know, that one race owes the other here.
That's a horrible thought.
It's a horrible thought, particularly, sorry to interrupt that, particularly when you divvy it up by time.
You know, my ancestors, a lot of them were slaves.
They were taken by the Muslims.
They were indentured slaves slash servants in the New World, a lot of the Irish people and so on, right?
Collective guilt, particularly when sliced up by time, is just a bullshit shakedown by incompetent people.
To say that I am somehow responsible for the slavery approved of by a government 400 years ago or 300 years ago is ridiculous.
So a couple of percentage points of whites owned slaves.
A number of blacks owned slaves.
And no, not just because they wanted to free their friends.
Blacks in Africa owned slaves.
Muslims owned and killed tens of millions of blacks from Africa.
There's no big navel-gazing guilt fest over in the Muslim world about any of that, right?
And so the idea that we're somehow collectively responsible for the decisions made hundreds of years ago by people we have nothing to do with, I mean, if we're going to say that whites are responsible for 5% of whites owning slaves 200 years ago, then are we comfortable saying that we're going to judge all members of a race by 5% of their worst actors?
Forget 150 years ago or 200 years ago, how about right now?
A third of black men are going to get in trouble with the law.
That's considerably higher than the number of whites who own slaves.
So if we're going to judge all whites as bad for owning slaves 150 years ago, I'm telling you what's coming next.
Is people going to look and say, well, if we've got collective racial judgments for immorality going on, I'm going to say all blacks are hat because of the criminality of hat, right?
That's wrong. We don't judge people collectively.
We don't. Because there's free will, there's individual action.
There's a conscience of one.
I'm not run by my race.
You're not run by your race.
Blacks are not run by their race.
We don't judge people collectively.
We judge people according to individuals, according to individual choices and behavior.
There's an old line from a, I guess at this point now, a pretty old Monty Python skit about some guy who gets arrested, uh...
And then he says, yeah, I accept my guilt, but society is also to blame.
And the policeman says, right, agreed, we'll be charging them too.
You know, and I remember thinking that as a kid, like, that's funny.
And the reason I laughed was because I didn't realize it was going to be our entire doomed collectivist future, right?
No, I would no more blame whites for slavery than I would blame blacks for For criminality.
You can't just take the actions of people within a group and extrapolate it to everyone within that group and say there's some form of collective guilt.
I mean, you can, but it's really, really racist, right?
I mean, it's really saying whites are to blame for slavery from 150 or 200 or 300 years ago when only 5% or 6% of whites owned slaves.
Whites hated slavery.
Slavery was imposed on whites.
Do you think the average poor white guy in the South in America was really happy that the labor he was competing with was, quote, free?
Do you think he was really happy being dragged out of bed every time a slave escaped so we'd go on slave patrols a couple of times a month throughout half the night?
You know, like, no pay for it.
He didn't like any of that stuff.
Didn't like it at all. It was imposed on people by the state.
Just like empire.
The average British guy didn't want a damn empire.
Why? Why would he want an empire?
It raised his taxes.
It had to be subject to endless...
The endless draft?
You'd be shipped out on some stupid ship where you'd die of scurvy because nobody'd figured out that you'd cure it with oranges and lemons?
You know, more British sailors died from scurvy than died from war, died from actually being in naval battles.
What the hell was the point of the empire for the average British person?
The empire was a massive vanity peeing on the map so it turns your preferred color government program run by the elites at the expense of the masses.
Like slavery, people did not want slavery, which is why it had to be imposed by government force.
So white people suffered under slavery.
Black people suffered more under slavery.
White people ended slavery and 800,000 gave up their lives in the popular narrative of the Civil War in order to do so.
England spent untold amounts of blood and treasure to rid the empire of slavery and eventually around the world.
So I think that was great.
The entire planet had had slavery for about a quarter of Well, 250,000 or 200,000 years or whatever it was.
I mean, it's all in flux right now, 150,000 plus or whatever, right?
Blacks sold, it was the blacks who caught the slaves, shipped them to the coast and sold the slaves to the whites.
It would be impossible for there to be a North Atlantic slave trade without blacks because whites couldn't live inside of Africa because there's too many tessie flies and malaria and sleeping sickness and diphtheria and dysentery and you name it, right?
So it was this massive, horrible, collective human endeavor where very few white people ended up buying slaves from a whole bunch of black people.
And yeah, it was pretty tragic all around, and we know that because it's over.
But the idea that we're going to somehow judge people collectively by the actions centuries ago of other people who may have looked a little bit like them, but who they have absolutely nothing to do with, is collectivist racism.
Of the worst and most base order.
And I will not, you know, people say, why do I talk about this stuff?
Because it's not my fault that ethnic IQs differ around the world.
It's not my daughter's fault, and I'll be damned if she grows up in a world where she's called racist for things that are absolutely beyond her control.
Yeah, and like what I'll say to my leftist friends as well, it's like, you know, you're shit-talking white people, but like, look, you know, if you want to solve Problems, like, if disadvantages in certain communities, wouldn't you like to be white people to be part of the solution, like, to help you, like, rather than alienating them by, like, calling them racist?
Well, you know, I mean, we can keep...
I mean, your friends and other people, they can keep bagging on white people and they can keep making negative collective judgments about white people and somehow think that they're solving problems of racism rather than just adding to them.
And part of me is like, yeah, just keep it coming and the blowback will happen.
You keep bagging on a bunch of people, eventually they're just going to get really pissed off.
And it's pretty horrible.
And I don't know why people are so keen on doing this.
I mean, I'm not talking about you, Dad, of course, right?
I mean, I'm glad that you're pushing back against this stuff.
But I fundamentally don't get it.
Like, I don't get why it's just such a popular pastime to race-bait white people.
Like, what is that? Does the world have nothing better to do?
Do you all have any hobbies? Or, you know, like, I mean, especially when in white countries, the East Asians are vastly more wealthy than white people.
Oh, those white people are so racist.
So, you know, it's like, well, you're kind of doing better than the white people in a country that white people built.
So, not a very sustainable thesis, but I don't know.
It's like, I think there's a lot of anger towards white people because white people for a long time were just very, very successful.
You know, we came up with a bunch of stuff that was pretty cool.
And we, you know, I understand this is like ridiculous collectivism too.
Let's just say white people in the past.
You know, the real scientific method, real free markets, real medicine, real political freedom, freedom of speech.
Like, there's some pretty cool stuff, some great works of art and so on.
And I think it's...
I don't know if there's a frustration, like, how do you compete?
Or, I mean, instead of just bagging on white people, just do better than us.
You know, like, it's great. I mean, if East Asians come up with writing that's better than Shakespeare, fantastic.
Translate it and I'll consume it with...
Great joy and pleasure.
And if some East Asian economists come up with the greatest arguments for the free market that turns around the increasing collectivization and central planning of Western economies or economies around the world, fantastic.
I'll kiss the hem of their garments.
Instead of just, oh, the white people, just do better, for God's sakes.
Do better and inspire everyone, including white people, to...
The grandeur and heights of your achievements, you know, just this like insulting people and complaining about people and having negative judgments about people.
It's like, why?
You know, like I can spend my time pouring contempt on pop music.
Oh, it's so shallow and it's so terrible.
It's like, shut up and write some songs, you know, or just shut up.
I think you've put your finger on it or very close to it, which is that, you know, if you're I'm mind reading, obviously, but if things aren't going well in your own personal life, there's this tendency to say, well, it's because of the collective suffering that, say, East Asians suffered at the hands of European colonialism or something like that.
Let's be honest about it.
I had to think about this.
I was thinking about this recently.
Yes, East Asians On average, score a bit higher than white people on IQ tests, right?
But Europeans, you know, came up with free market philosophy, you know, freedom of speech, you know, science.
They invented these things, right?
Well, in their modern phenomenon, right?
I mean, I know that there's certainly in China, there was amazing achievements 5,000 years ago.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Basically, I do test for bureaucratic positions.
You had gunpowder, you had roads, you had complex currency, you had lending for interest, like massively complex stuff while literally Europeans were hanging around in cages picking their asses with a stick, right?
So I get all of that.
And so I don't want to say it's – but in their modern incarnation that really took root and benefited the planet, that's Europeans.
Yeah, thanks for bringing that up.
Yeah, I mean, obviously, if you go back further in history, you can see that the different civilizations had their really fundamental contributions.
I wouldn't have put my money on Europeans 3,000 years ago.
I'll tell you that right now.
Like, there's no money going on.
Oh, yeah, these guys are going to do great.
As soon as they figure out how to make fire, they're going to be all over that civilization stuff.
Well, but I think it was that, you know, the capacity to be self-critical allows you to get closer to the truth.
Especially in things like science.
What my previous thinking was wrong, maybe it's this thing.
And you've got to fight like hell for what you believe in.
And I do think that some stereotypes exist for a reason, and some of the East Asian...
And I'm sorry to lump, this is a big collectivist argument, so it has limited value.
But I do think, having worked with a bunch of East Asians and having them as friends, that there is a little bit of...
to tradition, to authority, to the norms, and so on.
Stepping out of line is not quite as encouraged.
You know, the old saying that happens, I think it's Japanese, could be Chinese too.
It's the tall poppy that gets cut down.
It's the nail that sticks up that gets hammered down and so on.
If you want to progress your society, you have to be willing to just stand up and take 6,000 arrows to the throat while crying your barbaric truth above the rooftops of the world.
That seems to be a smidge more European for whatever reason than East Asian.
I would agree with that.
I'd say East Asians on a whole tend to be on the more agreeable side.
There's more deference to authority.
Also, I think just history made things play out this way as well.
The civilizations of I don't consider it a flaw at all.
I don't consider it a flaw at all.
I consider it, again, as I talked about before, it's specific adaptations to local pressures.
The pressure in this case being government and so on.
I don't consider IQ differences a flaw.
I don't consider anyone superior or inferior.
I just want to repeat this because people get this wrong about this perspective all the time.
So when I say, well, whites are a little bit more like this, East Asians, it all makes perfect sense in the cultural and political history of each particular region.
There's no such thing as better or worse.
But there are differences that I think are important to understand.
And to be – I mean, it's funny, you know, correct me where I'm going astray here because this is kind of a funny perspective.
I was thinking the other day that about – okay, so I don't know.
Let's just say I'm Indian or whatever, right?
So I'm looking at white civilization and white culture and the white lands and white technology and white political structures and freedom of speech and all of the great gifts that – Western structures have given to the world.
And don't get me wrong, there's been terrible stuff too.
The government's imperialism and the empire had some positive effects but, you know, was not exactly an avoidance of the initiation of the use of force.
And it is a great challenge because you have to say, there's stuff I admire.
Really admire about black culture.
There's stuff that I hugely admire about Chinese culture.
I've been fortunate enough to spend quite some time there when I was younger.
And there's stuff I hugely admire about Japanese culture.
I mean, dude. I mean, when you lose at the World Cup and you tidy up massively and leave a thank you note in your locker rooms, like, you're not Aerosmith.
Like, you're just... That's really, like, low crime and it's like there's really, really great stuff.
I like the politeness.
I like the deference. I like the hypercivility and so on.
I think there's really great stuff.
So there's so much that I admire in so many different cultures.
I like the easy socialization that happens among many black cultures.
I also like the fact that there is, you know, a great sense of community and a great passion for music and like wonderful things that can happen in a wide variety of cultures.
But I got to think like if I was not white and I'm looking at the achievements of sort of Western European culture just over the past You know, that's a bit of a challenge.
I wonder what it's like to look at your own, say, ethnicity, your own culture, your own history and say, okay, where are we in the giving of gifts to the world?
Where is my culture, my ethnicity, my history, my country, my tradition in the giving of gifts to the world?
Now, my particular thought about that is to say, okay, well, start giving great gifts to the world, right?
And another way to do it, though, to sort of level up.
You can either level up by doing better or you can level up by pulling the other person down.
And I think that's the great challenge.
I would love for another ethnicity to...
I mean, if you look at the great Austrian economists, not Austrian the country, but Austrian the discipline, huge numbers of them are Jewish, right?
Huge formative influences in my thinking came from Jewish libertarians, Jewish Anarcho-capitalists, Jewish objectivists, I'm talking about Murray Rothbard and von Mises and Ayn Rand and Hayek.
And so when people say, oh, you know, the Jews, it's like, hey, I'm sorry, man.
The Jews educated me about economic and political freedom like just about nobody else.
So I'm just not going to be able to give up that particular experience.
I would love for people to do better, but it is very tempting.
To just sit there and growl at white racism than to say, wow, whites did some really cool stuff.
That's very inspiring.
Let's do better. Let's do more.
I think that would be fantastic for people to get behind.
But I understand that it's more of a challenge if you look at things collectively, but individually.
You know, I'm frustrated at the state of philosophy.
So I can just sit there and bitch about philosophy, or I could just try and create something great, if that makes sense.
No, it makes perfect sense. I think Candace Owens would refer to that as having the victor mentality as opposed to the victim mentality.
Yeah, if you're frustrated by smallness and pettiness, be big and powerful.
She's great, by the way.
I just wanted to mention that. She's awesome.
She is incredible. She is a force of nature, the likes of which we have not seen in quite some time.
Your interview with her was one of my favorites.
She's going places.
She has a huge amount of courage.
Her tweets are like haikus of compressed thought.
It's genius.
It's genius. I don't often do this, but I just wanted to mention she's amazing.
I think I had the chance to meet her.
Just a great person all around.
A lot of courage and is going to move political conversations in very, very productive ways.
Yeah, she can be president.
Anyway, that's a topic for another time, perhaps.
So yeah, I would say that no, you can't repay people by lowering standards for them.
That's cursing them. That's making their lives worse.
You know, you can't say, well, you guys had it tough, so we're going to make it crazy easy for you.
It doesn't work. It doesn't work.
You know, why are Asian Americans doing so well?
Because of Siberia, right?
Because of incredibly harsh winters, because it's plan or die, because of harshness.
You know, one of the reasons why there was not quite as much progress in, say, Africa, in terms of just like sheer intellectual general ability, was because there isn't that kind of harshness in that kind of environment.
And the further north you go, with the exception of like the very far north, where there's no capacity to farm really, The amount of suffering that it takes to produce high intelligence in a community is staggering.
If you look at how much suffering the Jews had to do to move their IQ points up a third of a point a generation or whatever, it's prodigious.
If you look at... The suffering that East Asians had to go through in order to end up with, like, how many people with lower spatial reasoning just got wiped out by winter or failure to plant or a failure to deal with the complexities of planting rice or who knows what, right?
How many people who didn't have those remarkably high abilities just got wiped off the map by some unforeseen, well, I guess it would have to be somewhat foreseen, otherwise it wouldn't select for intelligence.
But the high intelligence group is the result of tens of thousands of years of unbelievably immense suffering.
Now, I'm not saying we should make people suffer.
That's pretty bad, too.
But the idea that somehow a community is going to get better if we lower our standards, I just, I don't get it.
I fundamentally don't get how that's going to work.
I think it just produces shame and resentment and frustration, and it It doesn't work.
We've been trying that since the 60s when affirmative action first began to chug in.
Like at some point, are we going to look at these numbers and say, is it working?
Well, I mean, I remember seeing a New York Times article showing that even though affirmative action has been in effect for the past however many decades, the percentage of blacks admitted to college is still flatlined.
It's been at that same level for a while.
But of course, the answer to that from leftists is, well, let's do more of it.
We're not trying hard enough.
We're not implementing these policies hard enough.
And it's like, well, then it begs the question, well, is Moore College really the solution?
For the black community.
And I did the back of the envelope calculation and I might be butchering this, but you consider the amount of people that are admitted to college each year.
And what if as a form of reparations, we admitted all young black people to college Enough to fill in all the admission spots to all the universities in the United States.
You would have to deny admission to every other group for the next three to five years.
I may have to verify this math later, but that's unrealistic.
College is so...
You'd have to lower standards to the point where there would be no point going.
I think that's already happening to a large degree.
For any community, you accept every single East Asian, you have to lower standards.
You accept every woman, you have to lower standards.
Of course, right? So all that would happen is you would destroy...
The value of a college education.
People would end up in debt and nobody would be able to tell who's talented and who's intelligent and hardworking and who's not.
So it would be a complete disaster.
And that's what happens when you try and jig the numbers rather than look at root causes.
Yeah, and like, and college is so, it's at the end of the pipeline as far as, you know, how you raise a child into adulthood.
And, you know, trying to expect college to solve a community's problems is like way too late.
Well, they tried that though. They tried that with a program called Head Start, where they dropped over $100 billion into trying to fix the educational achievement gap between blacks and whites.
They just might as well have set fire to that money.
I mean, it's no good whatsoever.
People say, well, let's try $200 billion.
It's like, dude, how about some diversity in your solutions as opposed to more money, more money, more money, more control, more control, more control.
No, it's terrible.
We're at the tail end.
People who are still talking about that stuff, to me, they're just like flat earthers.
They're just like, that's so last century thinking.
Literally, last century thinking.
I mean, that's so 60, 70 years ago.
And people are ready and ripe for new approaches and new solutions.
And to me, people who...
That's just very uncritical, uncreative, non-empirical thinking.
And that falls into the Life's Too Short category for me in terms of those conversations.
Like, I'm just not...
It doesn't work.
It's doing the opposite of working.
Because right now...
The black family has been further decayed, undermined and virtually destroyed.
And you have generations of people now who have been dependent on welfare, not just in the black community, in the poor community as a whole.
And you have massive amounts of general economic skills that have been lost along the way.
You have the development of what's been called, you can check out the book by Perkins, called The Welfare Trade.
This employment-resistant personality.
You know, impulsive, aggressive, doesn't show up on time, doesn't really figure out consequences very well, and wants the easy life of status and money without having to work for it and so on.
Employment-resistant personality.
Well, personality is significantly genetic.
So we have now really backed ourselves into a hell of a corner.
And I still have great belief in the fertility and creativity of all humanity.
But let's not pretend that the transition is going to be without challenges, because it ain't.
Yeah. No, I think the point about finding new solutions is really important.
And the thing is, give more...
So when I presented that...
You'd have to deny admissions to so many people for this many years.
So the person said, well, yeah, just go ahead and do it.
It's like, let's suffer catastrophically for the next few years just to correct a perceived injustice.
But you just have to ask them, would you hire someone who came out of that kind of coerced educational environment?
Just ask them. Now, if they say, I absolutely would, Well, then say, then you don't need the environment, just go hire them now and you'll be helping the black community, right?
Just go hire talented blacks or whoever, right?
But if they say, well, I wouldn't really be able to tell who'd earned the degree and who was there just for fulfilling numbers, it's like, exactly.
Exactly. So instead of just this wishful thinking, you know, we'll jig the numbers and everything will magically resolve, just say, okay, well, let's say that we completely exclude Asian Americans and fill all their slots of Asian Americans with blacks.
Well, the blacks are going to go into debt, right?
And you're either going to lower the standards, again, just because you're taking everyone rather than specifically just because they're blacks.
So you put blacks into the college.
They're going to get into debt.
They're either going to flunk out a lot or you're going to have to lower the standards.
If they flunk out, it means that you've basically just burdened them with a whole bunch of failure and a whole bunch of debt and a whole bunch of frustration.
That's really harmful for them.
Or you've lowered the standards to the point where no one's confident to hire the people who come out of that institution because they don't know what's happened to the standards.
So what an incredibly destructive and horrible thing to do.
To the black community. And it's just that.
Instead of thinking about some sort of push utopian scenario where the numbers match up, think about would you hire someone who came out of an institution that took everyone and passed everyone and everyone graduated?
Would you hire someone like that?
And the answer is, well, of course not.
It would be too dangerous. I mean, if you are an engineering company, and you're going to hire a group from a university that has collapsed its standards and promoted, well, you've got legal liability if stuff falls down, right?
You've got compassion for people who might be driving across that bridge.
You can't do it.
Now you get some black, Hispanic, I don't care, comes out of the same standards and does well, beautiful, fantastic, talented, brilliant, hire away, enjoy, promote, you know, like you're in good, safe hands.
But when you start lowering standards for a group, oh man, it's really brutal for that group.
And I really dislike the people who don't have the basic empathy.
To understand that because it's really catastrophic.
Well, it's also a lack of experience on those people's ends as well because they either haven't run their own business or they only come from the world of highly educated people.
And they think, well, yeah, college.
That's the answer to everything. Oh, yeah.
And that's something that is lasting because college used to be a pretty good proxy for an IQ test, but really not so much.
I mean, it used to be that even finishing high school was a pretty good proxy for an intelligence test, but that's gone by the wayside.
And soon it will be college.
Yeah. Well, and that's something that I've actually kind of...
So this is the thing that kind of...
Kind of changes the way that I've been raised or thinking about things.
Because, you know, moving forward, if the standards of college keep lowering, you know, I mean, I'm thinking, you know, I would not permit my, you know, future children to attend college unless they had a really clear path to profitability at the end.
You know, you want to be a petroleum engineer?
Okay. That's pretty good.
Right. Right. And then, you know, and by then, like, hopefully, you know, they're smart, critical thinkers can resist some of the Marxist indoctrination that's going on in college campuses.
You know, but it's like being very, very careful of just recommending that option in the first place.
And that's a hard suggestion to make.
among the East Asians as well, who are raised with, you know, education is really valuable.
Like it's, you gotta, you know, you have to, you really need to achieve this, this in order to, to get to economic stability and to, I'm trying to get a career path that doesn't involve that.
Well, the career path that's very lucrative that doesn't involve that tends to be entrepreneurship.
But because of the mild tendency I think that we talked about before around assertiveness and dominance and standing up against overwhelming opposition and so on, there may be less option for that, in which case the traditional route for education seems to be a pretty good way to go.
Yeah. Yeah.
So... In any case, I think that those are all the questions that I had for this evening.
Thanks for, you know, taking the time for this.
Oh, it's my pleasure. I mean, I know we danced, well, not danced around.
We strode manfully into some pretty challenging topics.
How was all that for you? Oh, it was great.
It's great. I think you've given me a lot of nice new talking points that I can sort of incorporate.
Yeah, and listen, I mean...
White people, not racist.
You know, like it's so funny that the one group that is opening up their entire countries and cultures and taxpayers' wallets to every group in the known universe is the only group that's really called racist.
It's like... I don't think that really works too well.
You'll hear Westerners called Islamophobic, although Muslim immigration into the West is massively high.
But you'll never hear Saudi Arabia called Christianophobic, because they don't allow Christians to immigrate in any permanent kind of way.
So it is...
Funny and kind of tragic that I think the least – the group that is most self-conscious and really working to overcome any vestigial racism is the one that's called racist the most.
And of course, the big danger for that is some people still believe that, you know, there's this terrible Western racism and so on.
And, you know, conscientiously working as good – People to solve this problem, to overcome it and so on.
But I think at some point, if people do come to the conclusion that they're just being verbally abused for the sake of getting resources, that people are just calling them racist because that way they'll feel guilty and hand over money, that it is a kind of tribal in-group shakedown of the out-group.
I've seen anger in my life.
I've known anger in my life.
But I've never really seen the kind of anger, the depth and power of the anger that arises when people realize that their good intentions are being shamelessly exploited.
That is not a pretty place to be.
And I really hope that people understand that.
This isn't any kind of, like, dire warning or anything like that.
I've just, you know, when I see people who try and do the right thing and try and do the right thing, and then they realize that they're just being exploited.
Oof! Empathy goes from 100% to minus 100% literally overnight.
It's a self-protective mechanism for survival's sake.
That kind of turning point, we don't want to see.
Just recognize that when you keep calling people racist, you're sowing a bit of a whirlwind there.
I hope that people will back off from it because I mean, it's really not empirically the case.
And it does seem to be sometimes just a profitable label to affix to people to get their stuff.
That's not going to end well.
That's not going to end well. And it's up to white people too.
Like I take the Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson's words very seriously here.
Like it's a matter of survival for all of us and white people as well.
I love Jesse Lee Peterson's work, by the way.
No, he's great. He's great.
And refreshing.
And very, very stimulating intellectually when it comes to things like forgiveness and his disbelief in racism as a whole and so on.
And it's...
He's well worth checking out.
And so I hope that helps.
I really do appreciate the call, the conversation.
Thanks everyone so much.
Please don't forget to pick up your copy of...
The aptly named The Art of the Argument, which you can get at theartoftheargument.com.
It's a great book. Working on a new one.
It's just in its fifth draft at the moment.
Kind of drafty in here.
That's a bad joke. Anyway, we'll leave it in.
So please don't forget to donate, to support, to help out this most essential conversation in the world.
Come on, you know that nobody else is doing this kind of conversation, this kind of work, even people who know better.
And you know who I'm talking to.
So please help us out at freedomainradio.com.
Donate, follow me on Twitter.
It's Stefan Mullen.
You've got some shopping to do.
FDRURL.com forward slash Amazon.
Don't forget, Australia, she be coming up relatively soon.
It is just over a week until my first speech in the land, well...
So down under, it's upside down again.
And you can check that out at axiomatic.events.
That's axiomatic.events.
And thank you again, as always, for a wonderful conversation.
