March 31, 2018 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
49:54
4042 The Ugly Truth About Diversity | Katie Hopkins and Stefan Molyneux
Katie Hopkins first came to prominence in 2007 as a reality television contestant in the UK show The Apprentice, but is now best known as a controversial and outspoken columnist for British newspapers The Sun and the Daily Mail, but she is currently a commentator with TheRebel Media. Order "Rude" Now: http://www.fdrurl.com/hopkins-rudeWebsite: http://www.hopkinsworld.comTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/KTHopkinsYour support is essential to Freedomain Radio, which is 100% funded by viewers like you. Please support the show by making a one time donation or signing up for a monthly recurring donation at: http://www.freedomainradio.com/donate
Hi, everybody. Very pleased to be chatting with Katie Hopkins.
If you don't know her, I'm sure you do.
She is the woman who I think theoretically has scored lowest on the personality test called agreeableness to our mutual benefit.
She's a popular columnist, radio presenter, author, and journalist with The Rebel Media.
Her new book slash memoir, Rude, is available now.
It's actually a pop-up book.
It just pokes you in the eye when you open it.
The website is hopkinsworld.com and twitter.com forward slash KT, KT, the acronym, Hopkins.
Katie, thank you so much for taking the time today.
Thank you very much for having me.
It's been a while. I think we've been trying to talk for ages, haven't we, but never quite got it organized.
The first time we tried to get you on, I had more hair.
So, let's talk a little bit about, to me, one of the big issues in your work, and I guess my work as well, the work that we're all doing, is around free speech.
I'm going to throw a theory past you, let me know what you think.
To me, the most strenuous reactions to free speech tend to be not around new ideas, but ideas that everyone already has, but nobody wants to talk about.
And I think I've seen those landmines under your feet quite a bit.
What do you think of that approach to one of the big challenges of free speech?
I think you're right.
And I actually resist this whole free speech thing.
You know, people say, oh, we were at Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park standing up for free speech.
And I question that even as an idea, actually, because the notion that you would be somewhere standing up for free speech is indicative of the fact that actually...
That facet of our society has already been lost.
And certainly in the UK, the ability to speak freely, which is what we're talking about, has been lost.
And the ability to have freedom of speech is not about presenting radical ideas, which is the point you're alluding to.
It's being able to present your opinions, your thoughts, accepted thoughts for a generation or so, and then be free to share those.
And we've lost that. So if you go to anybody in the UK and say, are you free to speak your mind?
Do you tell people how you think?
Do you just chat about what you feel?
They would laugh in your face.
And even if I get in, say, a black cab in the city of London and I shut the door and a driver will go, all right, Katie, you know, I can say what I want because you're in the car.
And it's that sense that we have lost that permission to just say the things we think.
And I think most people these days have a sense of, can I say that before they even speak?
And once you've achieved that in society, you have already managed to oppress that ability to speak freely.
And I think that's truly where we are.
I don't believe we have freedom of speech in the UK today.
It was a little bit of a bait and switch when you think about it because, I mean, I grew up in the UK, but I left in the 70s or was taken out in the 70s by my family.
It was a bit of a bait and switch, Katie, because I remember back in the day this whole idea of diversity.
We're going to get lots of people from all over the world, different religions, different perspectives, different ideas, and it's going to be this wonderful bubbling conversation.
It's going to really enrich everyone with lots of different perspectives.
But kind of the way that it played out, funny story, that did not happen.
What happened was, well, this group's offended by this, and this group's offended by this, and this group's offended by this, so you can't say this, you can't say that, you can't say the other, and the most aggressive groups tend to get their way, and the nicest, most pleasant, most rational, most abstract groups tend to get plowed under, and it really was almost the exact opposite of what was promised.
I think so. I think multiculturalism, when I think of the definition of it now, multiculturalism means that we all die together.
And one of the things that sickens me is after a jihadi attack in the UK on our bridge or on our parliament or on our daughters in Manchester as a year ago today nearly, they say, well, you know, three Muslims also died in the attack.
Is this that kind of makes it okay?
You know, multiculturalism means they get blown up too.
So therefore, someone like me, a Christian conservative, has no right to complain because, look, right there, lying there without their legs and arms, that's a Muslim, so therefore we're all in this together.
Well, you know, that's never been my understanding of how we improve a society, that we, you know, embrace everybody so we all get blown up together.
Like, that doesn't work.
And the second thing that I think is really pertinent that I've learned on my journey is staying at the migrant camp at Calais.
I stayed there for a while to understand migrant life in that camp.
And the thing, I think, naively, I thought, was that when you come here and you've travelled from Afghanistan or you've travelled from Libya or parts of Africa, is you would come to Calais and it would be a new start.
You're looking for a new life.
You're trying to get to the UK. But actually, in that camp in Calais, everyone brought with them their same old hatred they ever had.
They didn't walk into Calais and were reborn with this new kind of idea of Western civilization.
The Eritreans hated the Afghanis, who hated the Somalis, who didn't speak to the Libyans.
And they would fight over food, fight over the clothing, hands out, and then fought over the visa line, which is when a few got shot.
So we don't import multiculturalism.
We import mono-cultures who continue to hate each other, just like they did before.
Well, and when I go to a French restaurant, I want French food.
And the question about if you go to another country, let's say that you love Japan so much, you want to go live in Japan, you want to learn Japanese, you want to integrate yourself as much as possible into that culture, well, that's one thing.
And it will take you a long time, even if you have a great desire to do so.
But this idea that you're going to bring a lot of different cultures into England, well, if they're coming to England, I would assume it's because they like something about the British culture.
And if then that British culture kind of commits seppuku, then the people who've come there to enjoy that British culture don't get to enjoy it.
And that is a real shame.
You end up with less diversity when you try and mix everything up together.
Absolutely. And it's one of my questions that no one ever seems to have an answer for.
If Islam is so fantastic, if you love it so much that You want to bring it everywhere you go.
Why didn't you just stay in the Islamic countries where you could practice your religion because it was so fabulous?
Why come to Christian countries and then impose the very religion that you ran away from because it was too oppressive or you weren't able to do the things you want to do?
It's a real frustration to me and a real disappointment as well, the amount that we've just sort of knelt down.
Bow down to Islam.
You know, I take example, I have three kids, so my kids are 13, 12 and 9.
And in a state school that used to be at, there was three trips to the mosque for building understanding of the mosque with my children within a term or two.
And that's fine also if you say, well, okay, did we visit, you know, the cathedral?
Did we go and visit any other, a synagogue or whatever?
But it's always the mosques.
And that The feeling of the takeover of the UK is really strong.
And it's the reason I spend time in America now is to say, you know, do not become as we have become.
You know, do not let yourself fall as we have fallen.
You know, we got so sick of that whole thing after every explosion, every jihadi attack.
Our leaders come out and say, we stand together.
We stand united.
We will not be cowed.
We will not be defeated by terrorists.
And it's the same narrative every time.
We are cowed.
We don't stand united.
I'm in contact with individuals who were blown up in the Manchester attack a year ago and they're still learning to walk and their families have been divorced and their children can't sleep.
You know, we don't carry on as normal.
It's a lie that's perpetuated by the establishment that drives a narrative that people buy into.
Well, you do hear this, of course, a lot, Katie, that the terrorist attack is not going to cause us to change our way of life.
But I would go out on a limb here, Katie, let me know what you think.
I'd go out on a limb and say, in a country where, say, raping girls used to be illegal and used to be strongly punished, if that's not really occurring...
I think you kind of have changed as a society.
When you have hundreds of thousands of young white British girls, often Christians of course, being raped by these Pakistani gangs and the Pakistani gangs receiving almost no Yeah, if you ask for a cultural marker of where we've gone to, that would be precisely it.
I complained because in one of the This was a good year ago, I think, because we've just had Pakistani day again.
But there was a flag raised.
The Pakistani flag was raised in the town, one of the towns.
I believe it might have been Rotherham.
But the Pakistani flag was raised on the sort of international day of celebrating Pakistan in the same town where a grooming gang had raped so many hundreds of young girls.
And I had made a complaint about it saying, I don't believe it's appropriate to raise that flag in that town at this time when our girls are raped.
And I was reported to the police and was investigated by the police for hate crimes against Pakistanis.
And even now, there's that persecution of anybody like me that suggests and reports that these gangs are majority Pakistani Muslim men.
We have to use euphemisms.
Our state broadcaster, the BBC, That we have to pay for has a euphemism of Asian.
You know, we have to call them Asian men.
So we throw all the Sikhs we have, the Taiwanese, half of India under the bus, just so that we don't hurt the feelings of Pakistani rapists.
Or you use the town name, Oxford.
And what's particularly egregious about Asian, of course, is that the Sikh community has been targeted and has been fighting this tooth and nail as well since the 1980s.
So throwing the Sikh community in with the Pakistani Muslims is adding insult to injury, I think.
Hugely offensive and done just because we don't want to upset the very people who refer to daughters like mine as white whores, but we can't offend them.
And that, to your point, is a cultural marker of how far we've fallen.
That is a perfect example.
And I don't mean to trivialize it, but the thought has popped into my mind.
There was a book, I don't know, some years ago about women who were chasing after a guy who wasn't interested in them.
And the book was like something like, well, he's just not that into you.
And it seems to me like with the British government, with the native Britons, it's like, sorry, guys, there's a new fling in town.
They're just not into you anymore.
And there is that very sense of a detachment.
Like a zeppelin loosing from its moorings, the detachment of the loyalty of the British government to the traditional British people just seems to have been severed.
And I think it's sort of...
There's an element where we look to certain leaders, Theresa May or others, and they come out, you know, if it's Ramadan, they'll come out and wish all of our Muslim community a very happy Ramadan or happy Eid at the end.
You know, and it's like, why are we so...
Why must we tiptoe around these cultures to that degree where we feel second class?
We feel that they come first and we come second, and that's why the tension is being driven in the UK. And I can certainly feel in the UK the sense that the pressure cooker is being screwed, that lid on that pressure cooker is being screwed, and 17.4 million people that voted for Brexit are exactly the 17.4 million people who are going to get to a point where we say, too, Enough is enough.
And we are starting to fight back for the culture we're trying to defend.
So tell me a little bit about that.
That's not particularly evident from my vantage point overseas because we get, of course, a lot of the British press, which is heavily leftist and, well, there's a whole other bunch of adjectives I could go into, but we don't really see a lot of this pushback from the British population.
But there must be a sense that things are going awry and a stand does need to be taken.
Yes. And you definitely don't see it yet.
And in a way, I don't even see it yet in the UK. Certainly not in the press.
Certainly not mainstream press.
And you could say, oh, it's just some peripheral people.
And, you know, like myself, oh, just some peripheral right-wing nutjobs.
They think, you know, we're going to make a stand.
But actually, if you're in there, you know how you can feel a place sometimes.
You can feel that buzz now.
There's that little... It's like a little electricity and the numbers are growing.
My supporters... You know, they're growing at quite a rate at the minute because the more, I think, like a seesaw, the more you press down on a society, the more you try and silence them, the more they feel they can't say what they want or they're paying taxes endlessly to house half of Africa, the more the support grows on the other side of the seesaw.
And it won't be long before that group It feels like they need to express themselves.
And I can see those moments starting to map together.
So we had Speaker's Corner the other day where a few of us went to read the speech of Martin Selner, who was deported from the UK for future hate speech as yet unsaid.
And then there's going to be another event very soon in Manchester that will mark the one-year anniversary of the Manchester bombing.
I will be speaking at that.
And I think as you start to see these crowd size grow, there will come a point where the media will have to represent them.
At the moment, because we're turning up and we're peaceful, we're orderly, we're presentable, there's no reporting.
If we fought, of course, they'd be all over it.
And the more that we represent ourselves, In a professional manner, standing up for Britain, the better we can do.
Well, and this is something about the British character that if you've not spent a lot of time in the Fair Isle, a lot of people around the world may not understand, that in my experience, British people are extraordinarily accommodating, very pleasant, give you the shirt off their back, and will bend over backwards to help you out, until such time as they feel that you are using their niceness to take advantage of them.
At which point, the refrigerator door closes, the empathy closes, and it's like, oh yeah, these were the people who ended up ruling a third of the globe.
It's like the two faces of the British public, you know, really, really nice until they're not, and then they're really, really not.
That's really, really true, and I'm laughing a bit because I can hear myself being described, I can hear my mother, I can hear all people that I know.
We're so kind of polite, and yes, of course, have that.
Oh yeah, take my car.
Oh, no problem. I'll pay taxes for three public school places, state school places.
Then I send my own kids to private schools, so freeing up resources.
I have private health care so that other people can use my taxes from my national health care.
But that point at which my friend can't get her kids to any of the schools on her list, or my mum can't get her hip surgery, that's when that door closes.
And we've reached that point.
And I think we'll see these crowds growing and growing, these 17.4 million people that know they're not going to get Brexit and are being told they can't have an opinion and are supposed to bend down for half of Africa and the Muslim takeover of the UK. I think we're going to see them rising up.
And what I really hope is that we maintain dignity, we maintain rational argument and debate, and we maintain that we're standing up for democracy and for our right to keep Britain vaguely British.
Well, and of course, you know, when it comes to people from the third world and so on, the idea that, you know, well, maybe through some historical luck and some good fortune, we've ended up with a free society.
Please come and enjoy our free society, you know, because freedoms are wonderful and you don't have a very free society where you're coming from.
And so let us share the bounty of history that we have been provided through some possible coincidences.
And that is... Arguably a noble gesture.
On the other hand, if it's like, wait, you just want to come and have free stuff, have lots of kids and take over our political system?
Oh, I'm afraid that's not really what we had in mind.
That's so true. And if we look at a living example of that, that's more advanced.
When I say advanced, I actually mean regressed in the state of being in a state of collapse.
South Africa is a really good example, particularly if we take Rhodesia, Zimbabwe.
As a model for what's happening in South Africa now.
So, okay, we're going to make up for apartheid and we are going to give back the land to the blacks and we are going to have land expropriation without compensation.
Take the land. And of course, it turns out that just by giving someone the land, that doesn't make them a farmer.
Just by giving someone a car doesn't make them a driver.
And so Zimbabwe Rhodesia, the breadbasket of Africa, no longer produces food because there's no one to farm it.
Now that is being done yet again in South Africa, so cleansing the white man from the land, giving away farms to the blacks.
And the problem is they calm and they don't farm.
They strip away the homestead, take the wheels off the tractor, thieve anything they can that they can sell.
And then now South Africa is a net food importer for the first time.
And that's very much like the model I see here in the UK. Okay, we'll give away all of the bread basket of Britain, and suddenly we can't feed ourselves, we can't pay for ourselves, and we've ruined our country.
And so we move further east to Eastern Europe.
And I see that replacement happening.
Well, there's a lot in what you said.
So let me just jump in with one thing that you thought.
There's this horrible repetition, and it's not just Zimbabwe.
What I'm reminded of, Katie, is the Holodomor in Ukraine, where the – because, you know, let's be perfectly frank, Marxism is not unknown in South African politics.
It's not completely off the table as far as the mindset goes, and this idea of like, well – It's all the evil capitalists, the nasty exploiters, you know, whether they're whites or whether they're what we call the kulaks in Ukraine and other places.
There are all these people, they're pillagers, they're exploiters, they're colonialists or whatever, and they have the land and it's really bad and they're stealing from us, so we're going to go take everything back.
You know, if someone steals your bike, you can go take it back.
But what actually ends up happening is the most competent people get kicked off the land.
You replace them with less competent people or, as you point out, no people.
Funnily enough, nature is not a volcano of grain.
You know, it doesn't just come popping up out of the earth like magic, you know, whoa!
I just step in there and up comes the food and the bread and it's magic.
And so then what happens is a population in South Africa, which has swelled enormously since the post-Second World War period, is an 800% increase in the black population.
I don't mean to be a rampant biology aficionado, but that does require a lot of food.
And if you kick all the people off the land and you run out of food, the excessive population, which is predicated on the excess food production, no longer has enough to eat.
And then they're going to start stampeding north.
Yeah, of course. We've seen this repeat itself from Zimbabwe and other places.
It's then what happens is the West End government, governments like my own, that won't talk about the story I'm trying to bring, that won't show, I doubt they'll show or will allow me to show the documentary that I bring from South Africa to reveal some of these truths.
Then they'll be asked for food aid because Africa is starving.
And of course, taxpayers like myself will fund food aid for the black people who've taken the land from the white farmers, genocided them off the land and no longer have food security.
And it's the two big... I mean, one big warning that we should already be recognising is Cape Town has only, I think, 32 days of water left before the taps run dry.
So they already have people queuing in lines to get water.
Kids have to take two litres of water to school with them For the day, in order that they can wash their hands, they can't flush the loos.
I'm sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to point out that you were talking about people running out of food and water, and it really sounds like a vulture is somewhere in your room.
I know, yeah. A large bird just flew overhead.
I'm not in South Africa, but we're kind of blending the story with my environment.
All the vultures are like, where are the dying people?
I'm off. Here I go.
Wow. Okay, sorry. No, you're good.
It did sound a bit like that.
It's that it ran out of water in about 32 days.
And of course it's kind of a model for what will happen with food because now you have people in lines trying to get water and then you have the fights that break out in those lines.
So the other day a guy was shot queuing for water and you can see where if you get it then you run out of food you're going to have mass conflict because we're fighting over the fundamentals of life such as food and water.
And that's rapidly where South Africa is heading.
And again, because they decided that all white people are essentially bad, kill the boor, kill the white man, and all black people are fundamentally good just by some divine principle that none of us ever understand other than we should be always on our knees apologizing for apartheid.
I mean, how do you ever move forward if you're always going to be looking back to something that happened in the past?
I don't know. If only, Katie, there were some examples in history of an entire group being demonized who were then acted with universal violence against.
And let's talk a little bit about what's going on in South Africa, and in particular, the farms, but also the horrifying human cages that the whites live in.
What did you see and what's going to be in the documentary?
Yes, it's absolutely cages.
You know, caged people is exactly how I describe it.
Humans living in captivity.
And that's a kind of a curious notion, really, that for white people to exist in urban areas or not necessarily on the farms, thinking of a family I stayed with, the mum to do the school run, you know, they're coming out of these huge gates, not gates like we imagine, gates that are taller than your eyeline, automated gates.
You have to call security before you leave your house to do the school run with two children.
You're going out. They're armed at all times.
Women are armed. They carry their weapons on their person.
They do the school run by a different route every day in case they're going to be attacked because they are ripe for attack because they're seen as rich.
The mother will do a different route home, again, to vary the possibility that she'll be attacked.
And when she gets back within 100 metres of her gate to her house, she goes onto her phone to check the cameras around her front door and her gate to check nobody's lying in wait for her.
And then she will open the gate and go in.
Now that's just to do a school run.
Stuff that we wouldn't even consider as being part of just the mechanics of getting a child to school safely.
And that's for whites that are just living in urban areas trying to live normal lives.
You go to those farms, you know, one of the wealthiest farms I went to, and the trees do literally drip avocados and macadamia nuts.
And that isn't by some A marvelous feat of biology.
That's through brilliance of farming.
But it was like visiting...
I visited a few high-security units in America.
It was the same.
It was a high-security prison environment to protect the macadamias and the avocados.
There was a helicopter response team for when they were attacked.
They have roving patrols, cameras everywhere.
So in order to be able to farm safely or security, or at least have food security on your farm, That's the sort of level of defence mechanism you need, a £22 million fence system.
And that's just to protect some avocados.
So you can see, if that's us coming, you know, and I don't want to jump stories, but the one pertinent line that always really stands out for me, I went to Sweden to the no-go zones, and a fireman there in the toughest fire station in Sweden said he was building a bigger fence around the fire station because the migrants were attacking the trucks, stealing the cutting equipment, Stealing the fuel from the fire engines.
And I said to him, is this the future for Sweden?
We're going to build taller walls to keep people out.
And he said, no, we're going to build more walls to keep the things that we love safe.
And I wonder about that whole thing about our walls to keep people out or our walls to keep the people we love in.
Is that the new model? And in many ways, apartheid in itself was a wall.
It was a way of dividing two types of people.
So I don't know with the wall thing, but I do think walls to keep people in.
I can see us moving to gated communities in Eastern Europe as we move across.
This is a horrifying situation.
And what is even more horrifying to me, Katie, is the lack of recognition in the international community.
Regarding the plight and the extraordinary amounts of danger that the whites in South Africa are facing, that they are facing open calls for their extinction from state politicians of significant power.
And I know that I think it's Australia that is now moving to provide some sort of sanctuary or asylum.
That got knocked out.
Yeah, that's just got knocked out.
Okay. It was their Minister for Migration that suggested it.
And I was like, this is it.
This is the breakthrough. This is, okay, Australia will do it.
Then America's going to, you know, Trump will do it.
I was excited. But the Prime Minister has just stood up and said no.
He was making racial remarks.
That's not going to happen.
Sorry to interrupt. And this is horrifying.
I mean, it goes against a number of narratives.
Of course, the idea that whites are always the oppressors and non-whites are always the victims.
This flies in the face of that.
And I do think that governments are concerned about whites coming in from South Africa with stories about what it's like to be a minority with an absence of any kind of real political power.
And it's not like there are, there's the kind of sensitivities towards minorities that are a lot of the cases in white countries does not seem to happen when whites become the minority.
And I'm not sure how many Western governments want that particular story to start flooding horizontally through the populations.
No, absolutely not.
I can see where, you know, if the farmers had come and then there would have been media about them and then you would have had the stories that the farmers tell, the stories that I have in my You know, it's not just like farm murders.
The gangs attack and they murder the farmer and off they go.
You know, there is vengeance in here and revenge.
So these are two and three, we don't need to go into the detail and horrify everybody, but these are two and three hour assaults on individuals using tools and bits of, you know, machinery and some dreadful things that we, those aren't the stories people want to hear or to hear about, that that's actually happening.
The torture of whites to get that vengeance.
And even because Cyril Ramaphosa stood up and said land expropriation without compensation, and then the terrorist arm of the ANC, the EFF, the Economic Freedom Fighters, what they translate that to is kill the white man.
And what that means is, if you have politicians saying take from the whites, kill the whites, so in state hospitals now, Many white farmers who've been shot or attacked or white people who've been attacked are turned away from the state hospital because the black doctors and nurses believe they have a mandate to kill white people.
So it's now systemic.
The cleansing of whites from the land in South Africa is right through to the hospitals as well.
And it is not crimes motivated by economic necessity.
It is crimes motivated by a deep-seated racial hatred that involves brutal and truly satanic levels of torture, of rape, of abuse, of the physical destruction, and of course mental destruction, as you've pointed out, that the aftermath is not like when the attack's over, everyone goes back to normal.
You have people now who can't sleep.
You have women who can no longer have children, as is the case with the pedophile victims in the UK.
It is an assault upon the very reproductive and parental capacities of an entire ethnic group.
And the brutality of it is so extraordinary.
And compared to the sensitivities, which I wouldn't disagree with, about some of the brutalities visited upon the blacks by apartheid, compared to the sensitivity for, you know, like Peter Gabriel warbling all about Stephen Biko...
Okay, that was a terrible situation.
But where are the troubadours?
Where is the awareness?
Where is the sensitivity to the other swing of the pendulum and the people who are genuine?
And where can they go? People say, well, you know, first of all, they've been on the land longer than the oldest whites in America have been in America.
So there's a lot of root there.
And where do they go? Where do they go?
They have no resources.
They'll have no money. And they're going to end up in these squatter camps, as has happened to hundreds of thousands of other whites in the sort of new Soweto, I suppose.
I mean, there's no options.
They have nowhere to go.
The stand and fight or be airlifted to a more sane country, those are their only two options, I think.
Yeah, that's absolutely right.
I went over there with that question of like, and it's a naive question, but I think it's honest.
Why don't you run? Why don't you go?
Why would you stay when you know, you know, they would say, well, tonight could be my night.
And of course, when you're there and you see the poverty of the farms, that they have nothing apart from their cows or the land or the crops that their grandfather, you know, he took the bush felt and he made it into this land.
That's why they don't leave.
There is such a strong connection for God and family and the land.
And they say it's almost like they...
Have already committed to that.
They say, I will be buried in my boots.
This is my land. If I bleed for my land, it's like their ultimate sign of commitment to the land of their fathers.
It's really biblical when you're there.
It really moves you sometimes.
Hard to breathe there for it all.
But I also see, I went to visit the slums, the slum settlements, and I found...
Speaking frankly, and it's not something you're supposed to say, but I kind of have this, but I didn't think white people lived like that.
That sounds like a hugely racist thing to say, but it's just that I didn't realise.
I didn't realise families, white families that have been driven from their land, this gentleman, he lost his job, had no hope of getting another job.
You know, they lived, seven of them, because the mum and dad had had to move in with the daughter.
No water, no light.
No bathroom facilities at all indoors and a cooker that the tap didn't work, you know.
And no air conditioning in Savage Heat.
Nothing, nothing. And the smell, you know, it's on a rubbish dump.
The dogs are everywhere.
You know, it's beyond imagining that family, who was just like mine, the lady was just like my mum, The kids were just like, it was my family, and they ended up there because the country has made it such that there is no hope for white men.
You can no longer get a job if you're white because they have to employ black people.
So yeah, it was a hard story.
I don't know the solutions to it, and I don't ever pretend to.
I don't think we can all come and say, I have answers.
But I think we can all go about and find our truths better.
And one of the things I think we all need to stop doing is sitting in rooms Sharing our opinions and we need to do more getting out and finding the truth and just showing our truths and then people can judge us on those.
One of the Things that have struck me about your recent journalism, Katie, is the connection between the kind of poverty that you're seeing in the homeless areas of Los Angeles and what you saw in South Africa.
And what just sort of moved me about what you were saying was, when you say, well, whites don't really live like that.
Well, in a state of freedom in general, no.
So what's happened is the political and economic...
Tyrannies in South Africa have reproduced in whites the kind of environment that you'd need to be a 20-year drug addict with enormous mental health issues to replicate in the West.
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
In South Africa, it's just a feature of being whites.
It's just a feature of the color of your skin that you're in that slum.
It's a feature. The gentleman who worked all his life as a tow truck driver He said, my life is over because there's nothing for me here.
And just his family. And his children came home from school, actually, his grandchildren.
They were immaculate. It's one of those moments where you go, they're much smarter than my own children would be.
And so it's heartbreaking to see that in South Africa, just as a facet of the colour of your skin, you are a slum settler with no hope and no life.
Whereas in Los Angeles, yes, you have to be drowning in a sea of drugs and mental health issues and the sanatoriums be closed.
And that puts you in an equatable kind of position.
And it has been, I would argue, maybe since the religious wars after the Reformation, it has been a long time since sort of WASP culture or white Western European culture has been fundamentally tribalistic.
We have for many hundreds of years developed the concept of universal rights, of no in-group preference, of equality under the law, and I think it's difficult For people who grow up in that culture, not necessarily whites, but in sort of Western European culture, I think it's really difficult, Katie, for people to understand how deeply rooted tribal thinking is in other cultures.
And the idea that we are going to not have any tribal preferences, not have any in-group preferences, and we're going to open up our societies, and somehow this universality and this lack of tribal in-group preference is going to just magically transfer.
Boy, that's... That's kind of a big risk to take in many ways.
Yeah, it so is. And you see it, you see them almost, I kind of see it like, you know, in the old days, you used to get the sheets out and things.
I can see my grandma doing it with these scrubbing brushes, you know, and they used to scrub the sheets and scrub them by hand to get them clean.
And I see that with society now, with the kids they take in Sweden, you know, they just took kids...
In a preschool and they took them out and they made the girls do the things that boys would do.
So they made them walk their foot through the snow.
I don't know that that's what boys do.
And they made the girls shout out of windows and scream out of windows.
And then they made the boys massage each other's feet.
That's in preschool. And the analogy I draw in my head is this, like my grandma scrubbing the sheet is trying to scrub away anything that gives us a sense of cultural identity or anything that allows us to define or Be part of a group.
They seem to want to scrub that away from us.
No, you can't have a flag.
You know, I never see the British flag, the Union, anywhere flying.
And it's like they want to make us just this vanilla person that they can then move around the globe anywhere they want and we will never complain.
It's a very curious sort of mindset.
It's the opposite of everything I feel.
Well, and the thing that I find amazing is that feminists are complaining about sort of white male patriarchy.
If you are a woman and you're going to be born into a society and you want your economic opportunities and your freedoms and so on, you kind of want to be in Christian, often Western, nations.
And you could sort of argue from vindication of the rights of women hundreds of years ago that the focus on trying to gain political and economic equality for women has been a very, very central aspect of Western culture for hundreds and hundreds of years.
And still, still, white males are still hopelessly patriarchal and sexist and dominant and nasty and unfeeling and cold and mean and so on.
It's like, so you've had hundreds of years to work with white males in the West and we're still terrible.
Tell me again how you're going to fix some guy from Somalia in six months.
That's so true.
And it's such a good analogy.
And I think Western feminists, you know, for me, The only thing I dislike about being vaguely a woman is that I may in any way be associated ever with Western feminists.
They've never been so disappointing.
And I laugh in some ways.
We're so independent and we don't need men and we're not paid as much and isn't it dreadful and we must fight for our rights.
And then the minute females get divorced in the West, they go trooping to the court to get their husband's money to sustain themselves.
And it's like, hold on, I thought you said you were an independent woman.
What happened to that? So, yeah, Western family is incredibly disappointing and incredibly weak.
And that's probably another parallel I would, or contrast, I suppose, is the women of South Africa, the white farmers, The wives very often, who are often the farmers as well themselves, the strength of those women.
You know, one of the things I said I wanted to do in South Africa, like sometimes at night with my children, my son will think that there's a monster, you know, behind his wardrobe or something, and I have to go in in the night and show that there's no monster behind the wardrobe.
But in South Africa, you know, at night, that is when the monsters come.
And those women go to put their children to bed knowing, and they shut these big iron doors between their kitchen area and their bedrooms, so there's another line of defense.
And night is when the monsters come.
And being with those strong women, reassuring their children against all the odds, in fact, because that night might be the night, you know, that really moved me.
And that's why I just look at these women marching around with their stupid banners or their, my vagina's made of steel, you know.
Really, I've never known or seen anything more weak.
So that's my heartbreak on it.
It's trying to take these real strong women and give them voice and give them a platform.
I didn't actually know steel rusted that much.
I should share with you.
So on radio, I was cross about this whole, my vagina, I apologize for the vagina word, my vagina is made of steel.
And so I had a bit of a rant on the radio and I was like, well, I can stick a can of Coors in mine sideways.
And I got off-commed for that because it was offensive talk on the radio.
And my boss came to me with a transcript of that and read it out.
You can stick a can of cords in your vagina sideways.
It's all very awkward.
No, but the question is, can you open it?
But we don't need to answer that right now.
But this has always been something that is frustrating to me about feminism, and I am the father to a wonderful daughter, and I'm very interested in her future and all of these wonderful things that she can achieve.
But the idea that the patriarchy is the great enemy, when, as you point out, a lot of women, when facing difficulties, immediately run to the government, and it's like, well, you know, we're not being paid as much as men.
Well, you should really be empowered to negotiate for yourself.
No! We need a law that's gonna force men to pay us what we want.
And it's like, and I was struck by, there's a video where And I do find the topic, I know we're jumping all over from serious to somewhat less serious, but the issue of obesity is quite fascinating to me, particularly to sort of the modern explosion, so to speak, in waistlines.
But the woman who you say, you know, well, you're kind of responsible.
There's hands, there's a mouth, there's, you know, there's some connection between the food is not teleported into your arteries.
And then when she's upset with you, she's like, I've got to call the police to report you for a hate crime.
It's like, that doesn't seem very empowered, A. And B, it does seem like you're really appealing to the patriarchy to save you from the mean girl.
I know. And then I really kind of just made it that little bit worse, you know, by saying, oh, shall I go get the telephone for you?
Because that's probably quite a walk for your fat ass.
And also your little fat fingers probably won't be able to dial the number.
Shall I dial it for you, too?
So that whole thing.
So she did. She rang the police.
I've reported me for a hate crime to fat people because of my attitudes.
But, you know, I will always be somewhat of an enemy to certain people, and I kind of accept that.
There's a play out, actually, on the 20th of April in the UK called The Assassination of Casey Hopkins.
I read about this!
Like, they're exploring the limits of free speech?
No, this is murder porn!
This is like horrifying calling upon people to have a highly...
I don't know. I mean, this to me is...
Madness. But that's not a hate crime.
No, no, because it's me.
I'm white and I'm a Christian conservative, so it's fine.
You swap my name around with Sadiq Khan, imagine what would happen right then.
Absolutely astounding.
Absolutely astounding. Now...
As far as the filter goes, or lack of filter, has this always been your way?
Did you emerge?
Did you sort of grow from a caterpillar to the butterfly of free speech?
Or was this your, were you mouthy from day one?
I guess that's my fundamental question.
Did I come out of my cocoon as a big mouth butterfly?
No. I think what happened was, I believe in this kind of idea of there is some kind of sense of what will happen will happen.
And I know that's many people's ways of not taking accountability for themselves.
But for me, I was always supposed to be the first female general.
So I did my economics degree.
I was sponsored through University by the British Intelligence Corps, which is surprising.
And then I was offered a 35-year regular commission with the Intelligence Corps.
So that was all mapped out.
That was all good. And I went through Sandhurst for a year, went in as a platoon of 30 girls, and we came out as a team of eight.
And I marched up the steps because you pass out up the steps.
My granddad was there. But it turns out, you know, I was epileptic.
So my epilepsy put pay to my My military genius that would have been undiscovered, I think.
Maybe not. And so I went to business.
I was finding my way. I ended up on The Apprentice for various reasons.
And then I find that, you know, 20 years later, I find myself fighting again for my country, but in the media.
And I think it's something about that.
I think the truth of it was not that I was born a gobby butterfly with a big mouth.
I think I was always destined to fight for my country because I decided it at 16.
And then wending my way because I wasn't allowed to be in the army with my epilepsy.
Then I fought my epilepsy.
I've beaten that. And now I fight for my country a different way.
So I think it's about fighting for what I believe in.
And then it just so happens that I have quite a big gob and I'm not that bothered about being liked.
And it's one of the big failures of all people in the public eye is they want to be liked.
And being liked is highly overrated.
Oh, being liked these days is a mark of shame.
To be liked these days, I mean, it is no mark of good mental health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly crazy society, as the saying goes.
To be liked is like, oh, you're liked?
Oh, gross. That's true.
And I say to people, look, I don't give offence.
You choose to take it. You need to make better decisions.
And I think that's the way we need to live our lives a little bit more.
Here I am. I'm happy with myself and my actions, and I know who I am.
If you don't engage with that person or don't choose to be like that person or don't want to like me, that is also, I have absolutely no beef with you whatsoever and I could easily go out to dinner with you as well.
Now, let's talk a little bit about faith, because this remains somewhat incomprehensible to the largely secular left.
Because the question is, how can you handle not being liked?
Well, of course, it first matters if you like yourself.
It first matters if you're living your life relative to decent values, good values, living with integrity.
It matters if there are people around you who love you.
And it matters if you have a larger framework, which matters more to you For approval than the mob.
So for me, philosophy, I sort of say, well, what does philosophy want of me?
What does the truth want of me? And I sort of subjugate myself like a bit of a monk to this larger cause.
And as a Christian yourself, Katie, what role does your faith play in your capacity to overcome the slings and arrows of the outrageous mob?
Yes. And many people say, well, you're no Christian.
And they will highlight various escapades in my sexual history as evidence of that.
And they're right and correct.
If that is how you think Christianity is portrayed.
But I think it's about what you said about, I know myself, I know my family today.
I've just been on the phone with my children.
I know what they've just made for tea.
Those things matter.
And that's how I endure by knowing the things that matter to me most, which is my family and my three children.
And then the second thing is, and it takes on this kind of biblical thing of South Africa, Because the National Hospital for Neurology were kind enough to cure my epilepsy for me in March 2016.
I had massive brain surgery.
I'm a little egg now.
I don't have a skull here.
My brain is still hanging out.
And they went in and cured me.
And before that, I only had maybe two years to live.
So they said, you know, within two years, a big fit will get you.
And that was always the deal.
Every morning I would wake up on the road And I would text my mom, I'm still here.
I would text my husband, I'm still here.
And that was my routine for about 20 years.
And then so I now have this new life.
And so there is something about that that's linked to, okay, so I got given this.
I'm going to just use it.
And not in any kind of Christian way or not in any kind of, this is about God and me and my relationship with my place in heaven.
It's about I got given this free life.
And so, boy, I'm going to use it to fight for what I believe in.
And that's why I think also I'm not afraid of anything because I was due to pop off a little while back and they haven't.
And so also when they try and kill me or assassinate me or the jihadis practice stabbing me, I think, yeah, okay, you're going to have to try a little bit harder than that because my epilepsy tried pretty hard and it didn't get me either.
Hmm. That's interesting.
And the thought struck me like, you know, you're ever out with friends and you just find like 20 quid in your pocket and you're like, hey, let's have lunch because found money is generous money and found life is generous life as well.
Yes. Now let's just close with this.
And I mean, I'd love to keep chatting, but respectful of your time, let's close with this.
The question of feminism, which we touched past, has always bothered me as well because it, this is something I said many, many years ago, that feminism is just socialism in granny panties, because when you go to feminists and they say, well, we want strong female role models, you say, ah, well, Ayn Rand wrote these amazing books that were incredibly philosophical, incredibly influential, incredibly popular, like, we don't like her.
Well, Margaret Thatcher, first Western leader of an industrialized country.
Well, we don't like her either.
And the list sort of goes, Ann Coulter, New York Times bestseller, Katie Hopkins.
These are wonderful, strong, powerful women with incredible stuff to say and the kind of courage that leftists can't imagine.
Floating like a leaf downstream with the culture at your side and everyone rushing to defend you at all times does not take a lot of courage.
Swimming against the stream takes a little bit more.
They don't seem to have, according to their values, they want these strong female role models.
But when you bring them strong female role models that aren't a part of a particular ideology, it's like you just took a slow dump on their comfortable shoes.
And what is your relationship to that?
Because to me, you manifest a lot of the values of feminism that are claimed but not enacted.
I see myself as like the uber-alpha feminist, you know, the sort of woman that says, It's fine.
I had a baby, but I got back to work a few weeks later because I didn't want to get left out of the pay debate.
And so I know that if you want to compete, you have to be back there with the boys.
You can't just say I'm a woman, so I deserve equal pay.
You have to also go earn your place at that boardroom table.
If you disappear for a couple of years, you are going to be behind.
That shouldn't take a rocket scientist or a feminist to work that out.
So that's kind of my Big guiding principle is not to let their rejection of me, the feminist rejection of me, dictate my feminism or my feminist activities or how I stand or what I stand for.
My hope and how I push forward is to show by living this stuff, by doing stuff that I'm not afraid of, by fronting up to Skid Row or South Africa or crossing the Med with the migrants or standing in the face of a Muslim mob in Speaker's Corner Is to say to other women who maybe don't want to be public-facing, and I completely respect that.
It's a crazy path to follow.
It's not for everyone. No, it's not.
But inside all of us, there is brave.
And inside all of us, there is a brave person.
And it's just that that brave person hasn't necessarily found their time yet.
And so I think there's a lot of strong feminists in many women just like myself, and they're kind enough to support me.
And we do pull together.
And I think it's the quiet feminists that are the strongest ones.
And the ones that are marching around with their signs talking about how their pussies are made of steel, they're the ones that we can sweep away underfoot by doing big old things.
Beautiful. Well, I appreciate that sentiment.
Just wanted to remind people, Katie's great new book, Rude, is available right now, right now for a limited time.
We'll put a link to that below. The website is hopkinsworld.com and thegreattwitter.com forward slash Katie, the acronym Hopkins.
Thank you so much for not just this conversation today, but for a very inspiring life.
And I hope that this does help people to recognize that to be disliked, Is not the worst thing in the world.
There are far more worse things.
Losing your integrity, losing your soul, and stand up and be counted because the time may not be forever that we can do so.
No, absolutely not.
We need to resist the narrative, get furious, and fight back.
