Oct. 15, 2017 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:04:40
3859 Former Hollywood Insider Speaks Out About Sexual Corruption
Recently the New York Times published an expose on Harvey Weinstein alleging sexual harassment and assault allegations from multiple women over a significant period of time. In the days following the article's publication, additional allegations, including rape, emerged causing Weinstein to be fired from the Weinstein Company and disavowed by many in Hollywood and politics. Tom Bresnahan enjoyed a 20-year career in Hollywood as a working actor and independent film producer from 1986 to 2006. Since 2007, Tom has worked as an Addiction Recovery & Wellness Coach, working with individuals, groups and corporations on the front lines of the addiction epidemic currently plaguing America.Website: http://www.outsmartingaddictions.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/MyRecoveryCoachIMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0107763Your support is essential to Freedomain Radio, which is 100% funded by viewers like you. Please support the show by making a one time donation or signing up for a monthly recurring donation at: http://www.freedomainradio.com/donate
We are now going deep into the dank underbelly of Hollywood.
Not to see this guy, but with this guy as a guide.
We're talking to Tom Bresnan.
He enjoyed a 20-year career in Hollywood as a working actor and independent film producer from 86 to 2006.
And since 2007, he has worked as an addiction recovery and wellness coach Tom, thanks so much for taking the time today.
Thanks for having me, Steph.
You know, when actors get caught, when an entire acting profession gets caught, they're very believable in their protestations of ignorance and innocence.
And one of the things that's tricky about trying to catch the acting profession in wrongdoing is their very mimicking skills undermine whatever...
people wanna bring to their table.
So these days, you know, I've looked a little bit into the history of this and, you know, there was a joke on "30 Rock" about Harvey Weinstein.
There was a joke at the 2013 Oscars about Harvey Weinstein.
Courtney Love back in 2005 said, whatever you do, like she said, "Oh, do you have any advice for young actresses?" It's like, yeah, don't be alone with Harvey Weinstein.
I mean, this open secret, so to speak, is all over the place.
And I can understand why people who've sacrificed an enormous amount and taken a lot of risks and not eaten for 10 years or barely eaten for 10 years, why they would hesitate to take this on.
But the idea that nobody knew seems so far from believable to me.
And of course, you've moved into these circles to some degree or another.
What were your thoughts about what people knew and why they didn't act?
Well, I did move in these circles.
And again, I wasn't, you know, best friends with Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt or anything, but I was at all sorts of parties and functions and, you know, movie premieres.
And I was around all these people, you know, most of them that you all know.
And, you know, here and there, you know, acquaintances, different things.
It goes on a lot.
You know, the thing about Hollywood is that there's this mentality.
It's like a lottery thing.
And these powerful men, mostly men, some women, are sort of able to hand out winning lottery tickets.
And so everyone is just kind of waiting to make it.
Everyone knows they have an expiration date, too.
You know, and that's something that the women, it's much harder on them.
You know, most women, if you don't make it by the time you're in your late 20s, 30s, It's really tough.
Men, 35, 40.
You know, I got out of the business when I was playing 40 because I hadn't made it.
And so it creates this sort of climate of everyone's sort of nervous and competitive and on edge and angry and...
they'll do kind of whatever they have to do to get ahead. - Well, it's funny, there's this old joke about women in Hollywood that there are three stages of a woman's career, you know, like young, romantic, ingenue, district attorney, and driving Miss Daisy.
And there's very little in between.
And there is this supply and demand problem, right?
Because the supply of actors so far outstrips the demand for actors.
And the rewards of those who get to the top are so enormous and immense.
And I'm not just talking about monetary.
I mean, cultural influences, the ability to green light projects you care about.
You can set up your own studios.
You can alter the entire public discourse about various things.
So there's a lot of power for those who get through.
There's a lot of people who want to get through.
And there's some very powerful gatekeepers between the actors and their dreams.
Well, agreed, agreed.
And, you know, another thing I would add is that, you know, Hollywood and show business and all that typically, not all the time, but it typically doesn't attract people that are really confident, you know, secure, grew up in stable, healthy, happy homes.
On both sides of the camera, again, you get these people that are this lottery mentality where, you know, in other words, if you're a lawyer or a doctor or a construction worker or whatever, you know you're not going to hit it big and make $100 million possibly, but in Hollywood you could.
And so it attracts these people, and again, this mentality where they're crushed up, they're wounded inside.
A lot of times, I mean, obviously we know from Marlon Brando, Montgomery Clift, all the way down to the present day, you've got these people that grew up in painful childhoods, you know, loneliness, rejection, and this fame and fortune is gonna finally fill that hole and give them the love they never got.
And for someone like Harvey Weinstein, You're gonna get the girls you could never get.
You know? You're gonna get those girls that you could never get in high school or college or whatever.
They're finally gonna want you.
And I think You know, and I know I'm not the only person who said this, but I think it's more about, again, the control and the anger and sort of getting someone back kind of thing.
Yeah, there is this argument that has come out about rape as a whole.
And again, he's only accused.
Nothing's been proven. But this kind of harassment or exploitation or, you know, pay to play through sexuality It's tragic in a way.
It's sort of like if you grow up friendless, right?
And then you end up being...
It's the Robin Williams thing, right?
You go up lonely and you grow up friendless, and then you end up being able to really entertain people.
You can make them laugh until they cry, so people want to hang out with you, which you think is going to solve the problem, except they're still not hanging out for you.
They're hanging out for the jokes, not for you.
Now, you're part of involved in the jokes and so on.
Or like if you have a lot of money, and you spend money on everyone who goes out with you places...
They're there for the money. They're there for the good times, not necessarily there for you.
And it's the same thing with sort of fame and power and so on.
So I do think that there is something about, it's not about the sex.
I mean, the guy was worth hundreds of millions of dollars at his peak.
If he wanted sex, he could get sex.
He could pay for sex. You know, there's all the rumors of what happened.
Over in Italy, with his handler getting all these Russian prostitutes and so on.
So if it was around sexuality, he could have done it in a way that was somewhat abhorrent, but not to this level or to this degree.
So he kind of grew up, I guess, as an unwanted or outsider and, you know, was not the most physically attractive specimen.
Some of it was not his fault.
Some of it was, of course, in terms of his obesity.
But there is this, oh, now you want me!
Now that I can give you things!
And I think that's... That's going to give you a certain contempt for women, right?
Because he knows, deep down in his heart of hearts, if there is one, he knows, as all these people do know, that it's because you can give the women stuff.
So there is a certain amount of contempt, I think, that's generated.
Oh, you'll come spend time with me, you'll come to my hotel room, you'll whatever, and I'm going to see how much I can squeeze out of you because I have something to offer you.
And I think there is a power and a contempt Yes, agreed, agreed. And, you know, just because I work with a lot of, you know, adolescent teenagers who have drug problems and alcohol problems and stuff.
And, you know, I think the danger here with all this is You know, again, men are all predators.
There's a rape culture, the patriarchy and all that.
And, you know, Hollywood really sort of, especially for younger people, it really sort of gives them messages and sort of tells them what the world is really like to a large extent.
And again, what concerns me is that Yes, maybe a lot of these young actresses are being preyed upon and they're kind of feeling like the world is this scary place and men are predators and all that, but that's not the truth.
That's not the truth.
And so for me, You know, and what I'm sort of interested in is, you know, let's have a conversation about what the rest of the world is about.
Hollywood is this isolated situation.
You know, they had in the news today, and this is obviously these people are older for your younger, you know, audience members, but Dick Ebersole, a guy at NBC and Susan St.
James, I guess she hosted the show and they met and got married and they're married 36 years now.
So that was fine.
She was a beautiful actress, he was an executive, but it was consensual.
It's kind of a funny story, but I did a movie years ago.
It's called Ski School.
There's not many ski movies.
It's like Animal House on skis.
I'm like the guy that wins the race and gets the girl.
In the movie, I have a nude love scene with a woman, Ava Fabian.
She, at the time, was the playmate of the year.
You know, so here I am in my mid-twenties doing a nude love scene in a movie with the playmate of the year.
You know, I'm not going to lie. I was like, oh, my God.
And I was joking around with her.
And, hey, we should go out for a drink after work and stuff.
But she was like, no, no.
My boyfriend actually lives in Miami, has one of those cigarette boats, and he might kill you if he knows we went out.
And I was like, well, let's just be friends.
But in other words, I don't think Guys being attracted to beautiful women is a bad thing.
It's when you do what Harvey Weinstein did or what a lot of these other guys do, that's what makes it bad.
And that's a distinction we need to make because you don't want to have just men have to go further and, oh my God, I'm afraid to even ask a woman out because of the rape culture or whatever.
Harvey Weinstein, you know what I'm saying.
Well, and there is, I don't know what the name is, you may do, but there is a do you want to have sex with the woman standard for some of these leading ladies.
In other words, if they're considered to be sexual or sexually attractive enough that men in the audience are going to want to lust after them.
Then that is considered to be a positive attribute for some leading ladies in certain roles.
So in other words, the sexiness of the woman is part of her acting value.
And it's true for men as well.
Of course, the sexiness of the men is part of their value as well.
And so it's sort of weird in a way, and this doesn't excuse anything whatsoever, but there is something that goes on in acting, particularly acting for film, not so much for stage, but acting for film, where the director, the producers, part of your value as an actor is how much they want to have sex with you.
And they have to be sort of aware of that, and...
Yet, of course, they should never act on it, but it's part of the equation of trying to become successful as a young actress in the film world.
I mean, it certainly is.
That's, you know, come on.
Unless you're...
This virtuoso, amazing actress, especially for women, because as we know, men are attracted to youth, beauty, and fertility.
Women, by and large, are attracted to men, successful, can gather resources, can be providers.
We get that. That's driving all of us.
Yeah, actresses breaking in.
If you can, the more beautiful you are, if you can act, you know, you can be a supermodel, but if you can't act, you'll get maybe a shot and then it's done.
But if you can act and you're beautiful, that's the ticket for women, of course, and obviously for guys.
But I think for men, it's...
It's a little easier to be a character actor.
Obviously, Jack Nicholson was, you know, again, great actor, but, you know, not really a fashion model, per se, or whatever, not a Warren Beatty, you know, or a Brad Pitt.
But, you know, and that's what I think you see in Hollywood, too, as far as you see 60-, 65-year-old men playing opposite 25-, 30-year-old women.
You know, two films that come to mind, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow.
She did a movie, I can't remember the name of it, Mike, you might know, where she played Michael Douglas's husband and she was like 35, 30 years younger than him or something, you know?
And then I think I remember Sean Connery was in a movie with Catherine Zeta-Jones as they were love interests.
So, you know, I remember as a young actor thinking, hey man, if Meryl Streep wants to do a movie with me, I'm ready to go!
You know, because it's like young actresses who are basically unknown Can get a break with a big male movie star.
You know, Renee Zellweger comes to mind in Jerry Maguire.
At that point, she was pretty much unknown, but Tom Cruise was carrying the movie.
But you didn't really see, again, They didn't have a Meryl Streep movie or a Jessica Lange movie with me playing opposite her.
So there's all sorts of things in Hollywood, just like in life, where it's sort of easier for the women at the beginning to kind of get their foot in the door, but then as time goes by, it's easier for the men.
They can break in later.
A guy like, blanking on his name now, he won the Oscar for Adaptation.
He was in the movie with Meryl Streep.
Gosh, I was in a movie with him.
I was in the kingdom with him.
You really should know if you worked with the guy.
I know the movie adaptation.
I can't remember the name of the actor, though.
I was in the kingdom with him with Jamie Foxx.
Chris Cooper! Chris Cooper didn't make it until he was in his mid-40s, and then he had a 15-year run there.
Yeah, because I guess the demand for a flint-faced, stone-faced guy with giant Samsonite bags under his eyes wasn't quite there until it was, and he's a great actor.
But you understand what I'm saying.
The expiration date thing and the nervousness to make it is much more intense for the girls, for the women, than it is for the men.
Well, and it's all or nothing.
It's all or nothing because I remember many years ago when I was out of theater school and I was mulling over my future.
And I ended up at a dinner with a guy who was talking, oh, you're an actor, or you like to act, and so on.
Yeah, my brother's an actor.
He's in New York, and he's in his mid-30s, and he's getting some roles, and he's doing some off-Broadway stuff.
He's got a couple of commercials, just enough, just enough to scrape by.
But, you know, it's like he's getting older, and now he can't do the dance stuff that he used to do, and his energy's a little less, and...
And the problem is, what other skills does he have?
Hey, I know sword fighting and I can ride a horse backwards, but it's like, I don't see a lot of ads for other jobs that require those things.
So when you go acting words, you're kind of going all in.
It's not like there's like, well, I wanted to be an economist and I ended up being a financial guy.
You know, like there's a sort of second tier for some of the stuff.
That you aim at acting is like all in.
And this guy was in his 30s, fork in the road.
It's like, well, if I keep going, my odds are going down.
If I stop, I've got to restart somewhere else with basically no skills.
You've got a little bit of public speaking skills, some confidence, maybe some thinking on your feet skills if you've done some improv and so on.
But it's not very transferable.
No. And knowing when to, you know, when the boat and the pier are kind of parting and you got your one leg on, when do you make the jump?
That is a really, really tough decision.
And people, everyone knows because, you know, actors all know the older actress and they're getting advice and so on.
And I'm sure some of them are saying, don't be alone with Harvey Weinstein or people like him.
And other people are saying, you know what you really need to do?
You know, hold your nose and go in.
But, you know, I agree with everything you just said, and I can sort of add to that, you know, from a personal note.
And, you know, if you look me up on the Internet Movie Database, you know, the first 10 years, 86 to 96, I was doing short-lived TV series, you know, guest stars on all the big shows, getting close on big movies and all that.
I was in the game.
And then, you know, to be honest, If I knew then what I know now, I would have gotten out in 96.
I would have gotten out and gotten into the career I'm in now, which I love.
I actually was able to transfer it, get some certifications and degrees, and I do corporate wellness seminars now and obviously coaching and counseling and stuff.
But from 96 to 2006, again, if you look at my credit list, it just kind of goes down.
But it's so seductive.
You're hanging on.
Maybe they'll happen. Maybe this year is it.
Maybe that... And you hang on.
But once 2004, 2005 came, I was like, gosh, I don't want to be in my 50s trying to get a guest shot in a commercial to pay the rent and feed my kid.
No way. And I got out and it was one of the best decisions I ever made.
But I loved the 20 years I did it.
And I don't want to bash Hollywood or anything.
I loved it.
There is a lot of crazy stuff going on.
And the thing is, too, when you're in the art world as well, you always have some iron in the fire.
You always have some call that you're waiting for.
You always have some meeting that's going to happen.
There's always something, some little breadcrumb just down the road that you're going to get to.
It's never like, you know, if you spend three months and the phone never rings, then okay, you're getting...
But there's always something that's just about to happen that kind of keeps you going.
Now, let's talk a little bit about...
Your history, I guess, outside of acting, when you're kind of working your way towards that world, I'm thinking in particular of Studio 54.
It's kind of legendary for its bacchanalian excesses, its sort of late Roman decadence and nihilism.
What was some of the stuff that you saw?
Because that was the birthplace of a lot of people who ended up going through there to become famous or on their way to becoming famous.
What was the kind of stuff you saw going on in that environment back in the day?
I was a bartender there the last year of the club.
And the stuff I saw, you know, I was just out of college, 21, and I saw a lot of crazy stuff, you know, a lot of crazy stuff.
You know, most people don't realize this, Studio 54 is in an old Broadway theater, you know, on 54th Street.
And so, you know, the chairs up in the rafters and, you know, in the mezzanine and in the balcony, people were up there having sex and snorting coke and There was the VIP bars and the VIP rooms and there were one bartender in particular was kind of known as a hustler who would sell drugs and everything and he wound up being involved in a whole insurance Murder for hire kind of scam later on.
His girlfriend was in my acting class.
I remember telling her, this guy's not good.
You should go out with me.
She was a beautiful actress.
Of course, that didn't work.
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hang on.
Hang on a second, Tom. Are you telling me that a beautiful woman chose a bad boy over a nice guy?
Never heard of it. First time for everything.
I am blown back. This guy was six feet tall.
You know, one of those guys that's just kind of a sociopath.
Well, he was a sociopath, but just a charming sociopath.
She couldn't help herself.
I was just not very interesting to her, you know, compared to him.
My life's going to be a great fun adventure.
Want to come along on my great fun adventure?
You want to have a great fun adventure, don't you?
Let's have some fun and adventure.
And it's like, okay, okay. But, you know, I knew this guy a little bit, and I've since learned a bit of his history when the whole story came out about the trouble he got into.
And again, you know, because you've talked about this a lot on your show...
This guy had some really dark demons and secrets and, you know, painful past that he was playing out.
And again, he was going to make it no matter what it took.
And, you know, he kind of obviously took it too far.
But, you know, for me, I remember seeing all that stuff in celebrities and all the partying and drug use and sexual kind of and thinking, Okay, well, but this is how the people are when they're partying, you know, when they're letting their hair down and going a little crazy.
This can't be what it's like when you're actually trying to get a part in a movie or a TV show or in a Broadway show.
That must be much more kind of, you know, based on merit and being a good person.
And, you know, being someone who is going to be easy to be on the set with all day and, you know, and focused and not some drunken drug user crazy person...
And it was obviously different, but there was a lot of weird stuff going on, weird stuff in the process of getting agents and managers and pictures and auditions and meeting people.
And it's just a lot of stuff going on, a lot of stuff that nobody wants to talk about.
So, Tom, we've talked a little bit about sort of the abstract stuff, the sort of personal experience on the ground that you've had.
I mean, everybody who's had some success has had these kind of corruptions and temptations floating around.
If you're any kind of rainmaker, you're going to bring the thirsty people.
What have you seen and experienced along these lines in the industry?
Well, I mean, you know, again, I got into the business in my early 20s, so I was like a young leading man.
So, If you were attracted to a young guy, you know, my first three or four guest shots on network TV shows like Family Ties and 21 Jump Street and my first few movies, I was playing high school, you know, so even though I was in my mid-20s.
So, you know, if you're a powerful man that's into that sort of thing, I was probably someone you were kind of attracted to.
So, you know, a few of the things that could come to mind is I remember one time this very big photographer in New York who was like the big headshot guy that everyone wanted to do their headshots.
My agent set me up with him.
I thought I was going to go to his studio.
And then he said, well, why don't we go out on my boat and we'll do some other shots for like a...
And again, I was kind of like, I don't know.
But then I thought, OK, I don't want to be weird.
I figured there would probably be a hair and makeup person there or whatever.
And of course, I got to like Queens, wherever the dock was.
You know, I was living in Manhattan.
And it was just him.
And I was like, oh, OK. And we went out on the boat, did some cool head shots, did some other shows.
He of course wanted some shots with my shirt off, you know, surprise, surprise.
And then we were having a beer and he just looked at me and said, I really want to have sex with you.
And I just was like, I went like with my beer and I said, gosh, you know, that's not really my thing.
You know what I mean? I didn't want to because I knew he knew my agency was this big photographer.
And he kind of was like, he kind of pressed a little more and got irritated.
And then when he finally realized, I was like, hey man, that's not going to happen.
Then he got pissed.
And then the boat ride all the way back and I had trouble getting the pictures from him.
It's just stuff like that.
You know, another big agent, he was a huge agent.
People would know who he is.
He had stars in his, you know, sort of agency.
This was maybe six months later.
He wanted me to come out to his house on Long Island for Easter weekend.
Like, come out Good Friday and maybe, you know, stay Saturday.
And I was like, well, why don't we just meet next week in your office?
Well, I really want to talk about your career and I think you can really be big and I've got big plans for you.
And I was like, gosh, you know, I'm going back to my parents' house in New Jersey and Easter weekend.
And anyway, The following week when I called to try to reschedule, it wasn't going to happen.
That was over. They kind of decided I wasn't, you know, what they wanted.
You know, stuff like that.
I remember one time a friend of mine introduced me to a friend of his who now is a big Oscar-winning actor.
And we were both going to work on a job.
And this guy said to me, hey, we should work on our We can run lines and kind of work on our characters and stuff.
And I was like, cool! This guy was like a red-hot actor.
And, you know, he knew my friend, so I figured it was fine.
I was over at his house, working on our parts, running lines for both things.
He was going off to do a movie.
I was going off to do a TV series that had gotten picked up.
And he came out of the back room, like, after going to the bathroom or something, with his kind of shirt unbuttoned and then started massaging my shoulders.
And I was like, Gosh.
And he was like, oh, relax.
And I was like, no, that's not. He's like, oh, come on.
I don't think my character would like this.
I don't think my character would like this.
He was like, it's not a big deal.
Relax. And I finally was like, listen, no judgments.
I got nothing against that, but it's not my thing.
Of course, as you can well assume, we weren't working on any characters anymore after that.
You know, this sort of collaborative sort of actor friendship, I thought, you know, talking about the work that I thought I might be able to have this person, you know, vanished.
So, you know, stuff like that.
And one more thing that I think is really kind of, I think, happens more often than not.
I was invited to a party.
Remember, this is over 20 years ago.
I was invited to a party by an actor who's kind of well-known, even today, although he's not as big anymore, at a big producer's house.
And we got to the party, and I noticed there weren't really any women there.
And then I kind of was like, I know what this is about.
And Steph, I swear to God, I was drugged.
Someone drug me.
Because I remember, I mean, I drank in my life, obviously.
I've had too many drinks when I was younger, but I've never been a big booze or anything.
And I had a couple of drinks, but all of a sudden I was like, oh, like I was.
And luckily my friend that I came with, we got out of there and everything, but someone drug me.
And I don't even want to think about what might have happened if I had been fully drugged and maybe taken into some back bedroom or something.
So again, I wasn't even a star and I've got Six or eight of these type stories.
So again, if you're a young actress trying to get these big movies, you know, all sorts of stuff like that's happening, I'm sure.
And to young guys, you know, I think some of the young guys are coming out.
I know James Van Der Beek said something and that actor Terry Crews, you know, obviously the Corey Haim and Corey Feldman and Elijah Wood obviously had their stories.
So, you know, it's not just the young girls.
The guys are going through it, too.
It goes on in a lot of different places.
Wherever you have this sort of artistic hunger and thirst for fame, whenever the rewards are huge, the supply is enormous, the demand is small, and the gatekeepers are all-powerful, it seems like...
People just can't handle power.
A lot of them, of course.
It's like when you're a kid and you're digging up rocks, you know, and you're like, oh, this one's easy to get up.
Cool, I can skip this one.
And then you come to some rock and it's just like the top of some giant, you know, asterisk boulder kind of thing and you can't budget at all.
And I think now that this stuff's emerging, people are saying, okay, bad people in Hollywood, there's good people in Hollywood, But how much are the good people compromised by the number of bad people in Hollywood?
Look, if there's one guy who's got, you know, some seedy casting couch on Sunset Boulevard and, you know, all he does is, you know, give people towards hair commercials once every six months, it's like, yeah, okay, he's not really in the orbit.
But this guy, Weinstein as well, you know, there's a clip on Twitter, you know, people thanking him and thanking him.
That guy got thanked more than God, which is really not a good relationship you want to have to that kind of stuff.
If it is this central and this prevalent, I don't honestly know, Tom, who's not implicated by association, by orbit, by ignoring things.
You know, even the nicest people you think of in Hollywood, did they know rumors?
Did they hear things if it's so openly talked about and joked about?
You know, everyone in the audience at the 2013 Oscars who heard that joke about, you know, here are the actresses who no longer need to pretend to be attracted to Harvey Weinstein— Right.
They all know that this is not something, this is not like Germany in 1946 where, I don't know, who knew?
Exactly. This is not just a big black blot, but it casts a very lengthy shadow, and it's hard for me to imagine anyone prominent who's not implicated to one degree or another in being complicit or silent about this stuff.
Well, I mean, you know, again, I can only speak from my experience, but what I will say is, For instance, I think the casting couch might be a bit of a misnomer, and I'll tell you why.
Because casting directors, they're not really making actors sleep with them to get auditions or actresses.
First of all, the majority of the casting directors are women.
I know women have their issues, but I don't think they're sort of a sort of sexual predator-ish or whatever.
I know that's not a word, Steph.
As men. Could be.
It might be by this time next week.
Who knows? The casting directors are not really doing that.
You know what I mean? They're basically just managing who they...
They're weeding through the candidates and getting, you know, 10 or 15 people for each role to bring to the producer and directors.
And then, obviously, you realize this.
With big films, with big budget studio films, they're not seeing anybody for the, again, you know, for the Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt part.
Those are cast, you know, and then even the people around them, they just put out offers and maybe read a few other stars.
So the people that are doing the casting couch stuff are really the big agents who can get you in their agency, the big managers, And then the big producers and the directors to a certain extent, but not even the directors, it's the producers, it's the people putting the movies together, you know, that are really kind of the ones that have that power that can sort of, they can make your career.
And I think you've seen that with a lot of these stars who are in Weinstein movies.
They were all sort of giving the power to Harvey, not the director on the movie or the, you know, it was the guy that puts the whole thing together.
Like, you know, they call it packaging.
Well, and of course, he was very instrumental.
And I think he pioneered to some degree the use of these intense marketing campaigns to try and get the Oscar nod or at least the Oscar nomination for his movies.
Which, of course, you know, part of me is like, well, he loved art.
And a side benefit was some of this alleged predatory behavior.
Well, no, some alleged, some is admitted.
On the other hand, part of me is like, well, he loved the predatory behavior.
And therefore, he created the art as a lure to bring people into his orbit who he could have power over.
Because, of course, given how good and adept and driven he was at marketing, if there's that golden statue at the end of the rainbow, there's a lot of people who want to take that right.
And that gives him all of that additional power.
Yeah.
And I just think that, you know, the guy's not a mass murderer.
And please, I'm not defending Harvey Weinstein by any means.
But, you know, he didn't do what the guy did in Las Vegas a couple weeks ago.
And what I mean by that is that People knew that he could have been checkmated, quote unquote, 15, 20 years ago.
And someone else would have filled his position and probably most of those movies would have gotten made.
And you understand what I'm saying.
But I think that speaks to the, you know, to circle back, it speaks to this sort of lottery mentality and everything is luck and the right role and the right time and the right people behind me and all that.
Because again, for me, That's what I was hoping for.
I was hoping maybe some director.
You know, one of the last films I did was The Kingdom.
Peter Berg directed it.
He's a pretty well-known director.
And as I said, Jamie Foxx and Chris Cooper were in it.
Ben Affleck's wife was in it.
Jennifer Garner. And, you know...
I hung out on the set for a week with this guy and was hoping, hey, maybe I'll get friendly with him and he'll put me in other movies.
So everybody's hoping that'll happen to get, you know, like De Niro had Scorsese and all that.
Everybody's hoping to find some sort of advocate or somebody that gets them and is going to push them and get behind them and everything.
And you just don't want to do anything that could jeopardize that because It's probably never going to happen anyway.
So you're just so afraid to, you know, to speak out.
And so that's why someone like Harvey Weinstein goes unchecked for a quarter of a century.
And all these young girls, you know, sad.
I mean, this is the general interconnectedness that I want to try and unravel a bit, Tom, because this is something that is a huge, I mean, not just image, but real corruption problem in the industry.
Because everyone wants to distance themselves from the people who did this, and it's understandable, of course.
Right.
But here's the problem that I have, which is...
I've been thinking, well, why did it take so long?
When everyone knew, why did it take so long?
Okay, well, now there's the alternative media.
Now there's people who can keep the story alive.
But, I mean, it turned out he wasn't even that strong anyway.
I mean, it took less than three full days for him to lose his job and drop out of power as far as that went.
So everyone's like, oh, my God, he's this Goliath.
He strides the world like a colossus.
You can't take him down.
And then there's one little puff adder bites him and...
Right? I mean, he just goes down.
Well, like an analogy I won't make here.
So... I guess that's my question, is if there are these good people in Hollywood, then if you stand up and go to the wall and are willing to risk everything, wouldn't that raise your profile?
It's like, well, now we want to cast a hero.
We know a real-life hero.
We'll know a real-life heroine.
Wouldn't it enhance your career?
If it doesn't enhance your career to take down one of these guys, if it's going to get you blackball, blacklisted and so on, it seems to me that the problem is far more prevalent than is being discussed at the moment.
If someone is a whistleblower and then the industry as a whole blacklists them, isn't the industry as a whole pretty corrupt then?
Because otherwise, wouldn't you be like, oh man, I really want to meet this person.
Let's cast them.
They're famous.
They're brave.
They're actually living what most people only pretend to do.
Let's send more power to them.
Wouldn't it be a career advancing move to do something like that if the industry had more nobility than is sometimes perceived?
Well, you would think.
And I guess my answer to that would be that, and I don't know if the general, you know, John and Jane moviegoer understand this per se, and not saying they don't, but most of these directors, producers, writers, you know, they're having the same experience as the actors.
And I'm sure you realize this, most movies that you see today in the theaters, they've been around for 10 years.
They've been turned around at a few studios, they've been shopped along, rewritten, had people attached to them and the thing falls apart and everything.
So, you know, to speak to your question, why wouldn't someone be looked at as heroic and everything?
They would be looked at as, yeah, there's a lot of other people that are like Harvey Weinstein and this person could take them down too.
And so because all these As I said, the people on the other side of the camera are fighting.
It's like a musical chairs thing.
You know what I mean? There's never enough chairs.
And so those people would feel like, you know, for example, like if Colin, you know, again, I'm not saying anything that's not out in the public.
I think Colin Firth said that he regretted not Sort of saying something when this actress that he knew told him about what she went through with Harvey Weinstein.
And I think if Colin Firth did call him out and everything, a lot of other people would be afraid to hire him because they probably know someone who does this and they don't want to get their project taken down.
Because they've worked for 10, 15 years as a director or a producer or a writer to try to get their thing going.
And they're like, hey man, Everyone else is doing it.
I'm not going to be the one that's like, you know, has the, you know, heroic thing and have my career go down in flames.
Let someone else do it.
Especially if there's no good avenue to get it out into the world and to keep the story alive.
Because, you know, if a story comes out and it produces, what, I don't know, like a week of discomfort and then goes into the memory hole, it scarcely seems worth it.
Now, of course, since the rise of alternative media, Twitter, the internet, YouTube, and so on, the opportunity to have And to broadcast these kinds of conversations, there's a way to keep this alive and to keep it in people's minds, to get it to spread, to invite more people to come out.
There's a platform. You don't need a gatekeeper anymore.
You can just go and put it on Twitter and take your chances there with repercussions and so on.
I think the rise of the internet alternative media and its power has, I think, given some energy behind the momentum that people have to keep a story alive.
Because, yeah, I mean, it goes out and someone writes an apology article and then it goes into the memory hole, but people remember that you did it and that you're risky.
That's tougher. But it seems like now...
The sort of simmering, bubbling outrage, humiliation, anger, fear, and a general desperate desire of the decent people to clean up the sordid elements is combining with the broadcast power and unfiltered nature of the internet to produce something that I think is going to fundamentally reshape not just the industry but culture itself because I think this stuff is all over the place.
It is. And, you know, to speak to that, you know, an actress that I was friends with socially and had worked with a couple of times, she got a part as the female lead in this big action movie with a big action star like you know exactly who it is.
And she went over to like Thailand or somewhere.
I'm not sure. And this guy decided that he had to have her.
You know, he had to have her.
And she was like, no, no, no. And she tried to play.
And this guy got furious.
And I was mistreating her and being a jerk.
And, you know, they had all these scenes together.
And she kind of went to the producers and said, hey, man.
And it affected her career.
And I think she kind of, you know, she never said the exact words.
And I certainly don't want to make anything up.
She kind of, as what I could discern was, is kind of regretted it.
She kind of regretted saying anything.
And I'm not saying she wished she had slept with him or something.
I think she maybe wished she'd kind of, you know, tried to deflect and get through the thing and then, you know, maybe never work with him again.
And maybe saying something had a negative effect on her getting more work.
Well, I mean, that's a really terrible situation.
You charge the hill, you take a bullet and you still lose the war.
Okay, well, what was the point of that?
I mean, I may have slowed the loss of the war by five minutes, but now I've got to walk with a limp for the rest of my life, or I don't have a hand anymore.
And, you know, knowing when to take a stand, knowing when to have the fight is pretty important.
And, of course, it's hard for people to understand as well how much money is involved in some, especially these blockbusters.
You know, you've got Justice League coming up in November.
Hundreds of millions of bucks bound up in that.
I mean, it's a staggering amount of money and it rests upon intangible things like the likability of the lead actress.
And if that's called into question and there, you know, there's this whole stuff floating around around Ben Affleck these days.
You know, if the public looks at this guy askance and says, well, you know, seems a bit sketchy, seems a bit skeevy.
Well, you can't take him as a hero.
You can't take him like this intangible charisma effect.
Like, can you look up at these people and are they believable as heroes?
Yeah.
So like, so this woman who's in Thailand with the action movie, if the guy is going to confront the star and the star is going to get huffy and the star is going to get passive aggressive.
Tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars are hanging in the balance.
And now the director has to try and finish the film with demotivated actors.
And, you know, it's not like he's going to go to the shareholders or the investors or the company and say, well, but I did strike a bit of a blow for anti-harassment on the workforce.
They'll be like, that's not worth a hundred million bucks to us.
So sorry, we're never going to hire you again.
It's so all, you know, kind of interconnected.
And you're scared.
You know, I was a series regular on a show, you know, a short-lived series of several of them.
But one of them in particular, one of the other lead actors who was a very well-known actor, you know, and that's as far as I'll go.
But he expressed interest in me.
I was like the young, you know, guy or whatever on the show.
And... I kind of tried to deflect it and everything, but I couldn't go to the producers or anything.
They might have fired me.
This person didn't grope me or anything.
There was sort of invites to things and kind of forlorn looks and just weird stuff that you kind of want to go.
You know, I grew up in New York City.
Like I said, I'm a kid from Queens, like Harvey Weinstein and, you know, some other people we know.
And I wanted to be like, what the hell are you doing in getting this guy's face?
But I couldn't. It was just scary.
I could lose my job.
And I think that Again, I was no star, big actor.
I was just someone working.
So when you're one of these big stars making all this money, it's probably harder to do because, you know, You've worked so hard for this.
You've gotten your break. You are making this money and doing great roles.
You know, that's the other thing.
I don't think people realize that they look at actors and actresses and they think, oh, it's just for the fame and the money.
If you really love storytelling and acting and performing, you are an actor.
It's really fun.
It can be a beautiful profession.
Storytelling and using your emotions and teaching people about life and virtues and values and different things and being heroic.
It's really cool, you know, and all this kind of stuff just ruins it.
It's just, it just soils it all.
And it's just, it's just too bad.
And there are, of course, so many people who float around the rainmakers, who float around the moneymakers.
You know, this is a tough thing for people to understand that when you can open a movie, right?
Like if you're in the $10 million plus, you make a huge number of people, a huge amount of money.
And I sort of think in this general sense, if there's some star out there, he's attached to a whole bunch of future projects as well, right?
I mean, he's committed up the yin-yang for like the next five or 10 years.
And it may shift around, it may move, but this guy's got half a billion dollars, all told, floating around his name or her name, depending on the gender.
And if something happens to tarnish his reputation, that house of cards can come down pretty quickly.
And then there's, like, his agents who had taken 10% of his $20 million movie price.
Yeah, that's $2 million. People will do quite a lot to keep $2 million a year flowing into their firms.
And so anybody who tarnishes that reputation, there is, I think, this kind of phalanx of people who make money online.
Of the money makers who want to protect the value of their investment and anyone who gets between the public's love of a particular actor and the actual reality.
Like anyone who gets in between that, well, you know, that's like standing between, you know, the arrow, the hungry guy and the deer.
You know, like they'll just take you down to keep the money flowing.
From a purely economic calculation standpoint, it's kind of hard to argue against.
Well, of course.
And, you know, to take it a step further, not only is it the agents and managers who are getting their commissions, but it's bodyguards and nannies and, you know, cooks and chefs and private pilots.
And, you know, there's literally dozens of people who all have families and mortgages, you know, probably a lot of them.
So, yeah, you know, one of these stars, they're like a little mini corporation.
We're down the line from them.
There's dozens of people that are making their money either directly or indirectly from this person.
I think that's why people wonder, why didn't anyone say anything?
I was watching this documentary on Whitney Houston.
It's on Showtime or something.
It was the same thing.
She just, she had a drug problem.
She kept going. And because there are all these people around her that depended on the tours and everything for their livelihood, and they feel guilty and they keep doing it.
Well, yeah, you don't want to go to the tour manager as the lead singer in a rock band and say, Hey, man, do you think we should keep touring or should I take a break because I'm kind of burned out?
And I mean, of course, this guy's gravy relies upon you singing yourself hoarse and, you know, falling in a catatonic haze at the end of the show and trying to get it back up for the next night.
So, you know, people around the rainmakers and the moneymakers, they're not...
A lot of people out there who are giving you good, moral, objective advice based upon your long-term sustainability as a decent human being.
I mean, it's a lot of like, you know, man, you know, especially if you start to fall.
If you start to fall, like I think with Whitney Houston, I have no idea, but I can imagine that people are like, okay, well, she doesn't have a long time to go.
We can't change her behavior, so let's milk it as quickly and as much as humanly possible before the gravy train runs out.
In whatever, whether she ends up in rehab, I don't think they necessarily expected her to die in such a terrible manner, but you are getting not objective advice from the people around you as to your long-term mental health, happiness, and so on because there's so much money.
And so many people whose lives and careers and fortunes and, and not just fortunes, but there's this intangible thing.
Like I remember when I did a short film that was a Hollywood film festival.
And I just I remember, you know, you'd meet people and they name drop like crazy.
And oh, man, it's so sad.
Well, I know this person, and I just had lunch, and they'd always use nicknames for stars, you know, not Harvey, but Harv, you know, or Bobby, you know, rather than Robert, you know, all this sort of inside stuff.
And so even those people who use the names of stars to open doors to get stuff, even those people don't want anything to come between the star and his power.
And it is such an interwoven machine that, again, you know, one fabric gets pulled, and I think there's going to be a huge unraveling from here.
I mean, Steph, here's something really funny that, you know, that speaks to that.
I think probably Los Angeles and maybe a little bit New York, but most of Los Angeles is the only city in America where if you go to the dry cleaners, there's people's headshots all over the wall.
Literally signed to them to let you know that they clean this star's, you know, pants and suits and stuff.
That's what the whole city is like.
And so, yeah, you know, you get this kind of Let's circle the wagons and just keep your mouth shut and that's going to happen anyway whether I say anything so just ignore it and keep going.
You know, because I don't want to be, you know, it's like, I don't want to be, like you said, I don't want to be the one leading the charge that goes down and takes a bullet and then everyone says that, well, I'm leaving now.
And then you died.
Yeah, I don't want to be another example of exactly why people shouldn't speak up because you've just reinforced the silence and lost everything yourself.
Now, let's talk a little bit about the personal lives of some of the people that you've known.
Again, we talked about the adverse childhood experiences stuff a little bit before we started chatting now, Tom.
But just sort of very briefly, my history of this, of course, like I went to theater school and, you know, very, very talented actors.
A lot of them, some of them have gone on to do great things.
And we would do these kind of exercises around childhood or history and so on.
And, you know, almost universally, it was like lifting the lid to hell itself.
You know, like, I shouldn't laugh.
But where these people came from was often so dysfunctional and so problematic that one could see how the thirst for fame, as you pointed out, might try and fill up an inner void of early unhappiness.
But in your experience...
As you've worked with people and given them the Adverse Childhood Experience Test, which everyone in the world should look up, Dr.
Vincent Felitti, look up and take and ask people about it.
You know, talking about childhood is a great way to solve these kinds of problems.
But it seems like at the heart of a lot of artists is a lot of loss and pain that's being dealt with, I think, in the hopes that the love of millions can replace the lack of love of one or two early on.
Without a doubt.
And I mean, we all know from Marilyn Monroe, Marlon Brando, you know, Montgomery Clift, all the way up to the present day, you know, it's this sort of painful childhood, moving around a lot, one or both parents abandon you, abuse, sexual, physical or otherwise.
And then, you know, You have this sort of pleasing personality because you've grown up in this sort of chaotic thing where there's a thimble full of love and maybe three or four other siblings are grabbing for scraps of love and you have this dynamic kind of way about you and you're beautiful or handsome and you realize,
wow! I could be in the movies or on TV and get all that love that I never got and all that good feeling and everything and fill that hole, you know, that they speak, no pun intended, obviously, you know, fill that hole inside.
You know, I kind of grew up in a bit of a crazy alcoholic childhood.
My, you know, my parents are both, since they're still together, by the way, have, you know, worked through their stuff and they're awesome now.
But I had a little bit of that going with me as far as like, you know, I'll be a big star and I'll finally feel good about myself and confident.
I had a very close friend who was a television star who grew up in a crazy household.
He was, you know who he is.
Had all the money, but he was not what you would call a leading man and always felt like the women didn't really want to be with him.
They just wanted to be in the light and with the money.
And he never really trusted that.
And that really messed with his head.
You know, I knew another actor who died of a drug overdose a few years ago that you've talked about on your show.
And, you know, he had kind of a painful childhood and I think all the awards and money and everything just didn't do it for me.
When you're looking for that stuff to fix you or give you an identity, Hollywood not only won't do that, it will chew you up and spit you out.
out.
It really will.
It's just brutal.
And, uh, you know, I, uh, it's sad though.
You, Because, again, I think I think people in the public, I think there's this love-hate relationship a lot with stars.
You know, one of the sports in our country, as you obviously know, is, you know, you build people up and then tear them down.
And so I don't think they realize that these people are no different from you.
If you're, you know, average Joe or Jane in middle America making 60 grand a year, these people are really no different than you.
And, you know, and I can speak to that, too.
I went to a I've been a therapist for about a year.
And this very big movie star and his then wife or fiance, this therapist wound up marrying them.
Now, if anyone in your audience wants to do some research, they'll be able to figure out who this is.
But this therapist that I was going to wound up marrying this couple.
They're not together anymore, but they're a big superstar couple.
There was during the summer there was like six or seven weeks where I would either be right before them or right after them and they would walk out and I was like wow they're going to therapy like me and I would say something to him that he was this big Hollywood therapist that a lot of stars and you know producers and directors went to and I would say stuff and he'd be like Tom Tom listen listen The fame and the money and all that, it's nothing. They are dealing with all the same problems as you.
They have all the same insecurities.
I know it doesn't seem like it could be possible, but trust me, it is.
And I never forgot that.
Well, there is, of course, a love-hate relationship because we all want to think that there's some external solution to early or original pain.
We want to think that there's some magic elixir or something, some weird dance, or, you know, if I get enough money or enough sexual conquests or if I get abs or, you know, whatever it is, right?
I mean, we like to think that there's something that we can do rather than confront the early demons and take them down with robust introspection and self-knowledge.
And so the stars...
Are that illusion?
Because I think deep down we know that a lot of them are unhappy.
We just look at their personal relationships, like they're just usually catastrophic personal relationships, and usually nothing more catastrophic than those that seem good and then turn out to be terrible.
And so they're out there like this big mirage.
And so we love them for the possibility that we can just be like them and escape early pain, but we know it's not true.
So when there's a fall from grace, there's almost like a relief.
You know, like after Princess Diana died, the rates of depression in England went down enormously because it was like the death of the dream of the princess.
And oh, because she was, oh, she's so beautiful.
And if I had that hair and, you know, literal princess fantasy.
And then, you know, she dies like a dog in a tunnel trying to outrun the paparazzi.
And people are like, okay, well, that's the death of a particular delusion.
So I think we love them.
As these mirages of being able to escape our own histories rather than do the robust work of self-confrontation, and then we love to tear them down because we do want to get back, we do want to destroy this illusion, you know, that money and fame and power and talent and looks and all of that will somehow overcome personal dysfunction.
You just, no matter how pretty, how powerful, how talented, how rich you are, if you want to be happy, you've got to do the ugly, dirty, and beautiful work of excavation.
And, you know, again, I'm not defending Harvey Weinstein, but, you know, his company Miramax was named after his parents, Miriam and Max.
And, you know, they were probably, I don't know if they were Holocaust survivors or whatever.
I know they were Jewish.
And obviously, if Harvey was born in whatever, late 40s or whatever, his parents were probably, you know, maybe a part of that.
You know, you wonder what him and his brother Bob's childhood was like and all that stuff.
And again, he's probably a guy that's not getting a lot of girls.
He doesn't seem to me to have been someone that was maybe very athletic or whatever.
He gets into this thing and he's good at it and he's gonna finally get that love and that acceptance and those girls and everyone that he didn't get.
And then when they still refuse him, he's just furious and crazy and then uses his power To sort of get that revenge back.
And I think you're seeing that now in as far as everyone knows he's sort of been neutralized.
And so everyone's piling on like, yeah, we're finally going to get him back.
And I'm not saying they're doing anything wrong.
But I guess what I am saying is, where have you been for the last 20 years?
You could have said something.
You didn't have to, you know, you didn't have to do a story in variety about it.
But somebody could have said, hey, man, you know, I think it was in the news yesterday that it was a part of his deal at the Weinstein company that he could maybe pay off some people.
And as long as he Paid the board.
I just, what? Yeah, so he was, if people bought sexual harassment complaints against him, to my understanding, he had to pay an escalating series of money, you know, from like 100,000 bucks to half a million or something like that.
But he couldn't be fired for accusations of sexual impropriety or sexual harassment.
He just had to pay. And given how much money he had, that does seem like the kind of pocket change he'd find behind the couch.
Steph, it was like a traffic ticket.
You know, and what infuriates me about that, I have a 10-year-old daughter, and I know you have a young daughter, too.
That infuriates me.
It's like all these guys, you know, I try to live my life in, as best I can, a heroic fashion.
You know, values, virtues, integrity, doing the right thing.
Obviously, I make my mistakes.
We all do. But What were these guys doing?
Wouldn't you want to know why your chief executive would need a clause like that?
I mean, if they say they didn't know, it's like, well, why do you need a clause like that?
I mean, why can't we fire you for sexual harassment problems?
I mean, why do you have this payoff clause?
Why are you insisting on having that in the contract?
It seems like kind of a rational question to ask to me.
Because again, and that's the thing, you know, we know they all have wives, daughters, nieces, you know, whatever.
And so that to me circles it back to there's some resentment for women, your childhood issues, the resentment against actors.
You know, actors are referred to a lot as talking chairs.
You know, you've heard of it. If we only didn't have to deal with the actors, you know, and there's resentment.
Even from the producers and directors and writers and stuff, because, you know, let's be honest, as far as the public's concerned, the actors and actresses, they get all the accolades, they get all the love and glory.
The people toiling, writing the scripts, producing it, you know, production manager, getting everyone there, getting it in the can and all that, putting it all together.
Aside from maybe a few superstar producers and directors, Those people are unknown to the public.
And they toiled the years where the actress is going to bungee in for six weeks, right?
Oh, sorry. So the producers and the writers, they toil for years and years and years, and then the actors just bungee in for six weeks, you know, and they get all the attention.
It's got to be a little frustrating. Exactly.
And they get it.
They win an Oscar, and they get all the glory, and the guy is like, I spent 15 years writing that dialogue, or, you know, or I spent, I was shopping that script around for years and turned around and different stars attached, and now they get all the glory?
Well, you know, if If she had to do something with Harvey, whatever, that's the price they pay.
And I think it's that kind of mentality, partially, that allows this stuff to go on for as long as it did, and why people maybe don't understand the nuances of what goes on.
Was there, this is the last question I have, but was there, Tom, a sense that an actress or actor, generally I would say actress, given the demographics that we're seeing of the accusers, was there ever a sense or a cynicism around a sort of workhorse of an actress who suddenly, was there ever a sense or a cynicism around a sort of workhorse of an actress who suddenly, you know, completely geisters up to the top and seems to have, you know, a greased reverse gravity pole
Was there ever a certain amount of cynicism or eye-rolling about how she got there?
Yes.
I mean, there is, but...
You have to have the talent.
You know, that's the old saying.
Because obviously, as we all know, there's nepotism in Hollywood.
You see sort of different generations of people working in the business.
But you've got to have the chops.
You know, the old saying is, you know, having a connection or a friend or a parent or whatever.
But you've got to be able to deliver the goods.
You know what I mean? I remember someone that I know really well worked on Winter's Bone.
Which was the first, which was the movie that Jennifer Lawrence really got noticed.
And this guy was telling me, he's like, Tom, this girl's got it.
And I was like, what do you mean? He goes, no, no, this girl's got it.
This girl is going to be a star.
And I was like, how do you know that?
It's this little independent.
He goes, listen, just trust me.
This girl is going to be a big star.
And of course, she is, you know, less than 10 years later.
So, you know, and I know she did some Miramax or whatever, Weinstein films, and I'm not saying she did anything, you know, whatever.
So yeah, she's got the goods.
What she did maybe to get it to the next level, I have no idea, but you've got to have the talent.
Well, I really, really appreciate the time.
And I just wanted to remind people to check out Tom's work, OutsmartingAddictions.com and Twitter.com forward slash MyRecoveryCoach.
We'll put the links to those below. Tom, you have a book in the works.
I wonder if you can just close us out with a little talk about that.
I have a book coming out in January, Outsmarting Addictions.
It's really just about, you know, the stuff we've talked about as far as...
People have to just start to take some personal responsibility.
This whole thing where healthcare and someone else and it's all, you know, we're diet, exercise, drugs, alcohol, pharmaceutical drugs.
It's really about bringing it back to you.
And I have a whole sort of protocol that I outline that people are, I think, going to really like and find useful.
Outsmarting Addictions, it'll be available on Amazon in January.
All right. Well, thanks very much, Tom.
I really, really appreciate your time.
Best of luck, of course, with helping people with their addictions.
A very, very important thing. Best of luck with your new book, and I'm sure we'll talk again soon.
