Aug. 10, 2017 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
38:16
3784 The Death of Justice | Michelle Malkin and Stefan Molyneux
There is an ongoing crisis in America right now that the mainstream media has not covered: forensic junk science, a crime television show propagandized citizenry and unscrupulous prosecutors are putting innocent people at risk of unjust conviction. Former Oklahoma City police officer Daniel Holtzclaw’s was convicted on 18 counts of sexual assault-related crimes against eight black women. Holtzclaw was ultimately sentenced was 263 years in prison, but what if he didn’t do it? Michelle Malkin joins Stefan Molyneux to update us on the unanswered questions, secret meetings, shocking inconsistencies and outright fabrications seen in the Holtzclaw case. Michelle Malkin is a syndicated columnist, a senior editor at Conservative Review, the host of Michelle Malkin investigates on CRTV, and a New York Times best-selling author – writing six powerful books including her most recent: “Sold Out: How High-Tech Billionaires & Bipartisan Beltway Crapweasels Are Screwing America’s Best & Brightest Workers.”Website: http://www.michellemalkin.comTwitter: https://twitter.com/michellemalkinCRTV: http://www.crtv.comCase Details and Updates: http://www.holtzclawtrial.comArticle: The Crisis in America’s Crime Labshttp://michellemalkin.com/2017/07/12/the-crisis-in-americas-crime-labs/Your support is essential to Freedomain Radio, which is 100% funded by viewers like you. Please support the show by making a one time donation or signing up for a monthly recurring donation at: http://www.freedomainradio.com/donate
Hi, everybody. It's Stefan Molyneux from Freedom Main Radio, back with Michelle Malkin.
I'm sure you've heard of her.
She is a syndicated columnist, a senior editor at Conservative Review, I think a far-left organization.
The host of Michelle Malkin Investigates on CRTV and a New York Times best-selling author writing six powerful books, including her most recent Sold Out, How High-Tech Billionaires and Bipartisan Beltway Crap Weasels Are Screwing America's Best and Brightest Workers, also gets my vote for one of the best titles of the year.
Michelle, thanks so much for taking the time today.
Thank you, Stefan. American justice these days seems to be having a brand problem, an image problem.
FBI partisan investigations, letting Hillary off the hook, this pursuit of even cross-estate lines, asset forfeiture and so on.
And now it seems, as you've been writing lately, The very bedrock of trust in a lot of American justice, DNA, seems to be undergoing some significant challenges.
I wonder if you could bring people up to speed on what they may not see outside of television crime shows about what's happening in the DNA labs across the country.
Well, among the forensic science community, obviously there is a growing alarm over the CSI-ization of DNA evidence in Criminal trials.
And at the beginning of this year I committed to using my syndicated newspaper column, my web platforms, and my CRTV investigative show To shed light on the perils especially of what's called touch DNA,
trace DNA, or transfer DNA. And this is the proven, documented phenomenon of innocent amounts of trace, minuscule Amounts of skin cell DNA that has been used in many, many cases, not just domestically, but around the world, to convict innocent people.
And the gap between the state of forensic science in 2017 and the amount of public knowledge or lack thereof Along with the ignorance and the fecklessness and recklessness of prosecutors and police detectives who hit upon this so-called smoking gun DNA evidence and then ignore mountains of reasonable doubt and exculpatory evidence is Grand Canyon sized.
Recently, there have been a number of high profile cases, probably most famously or notoriously the Amanda Knox case, where transfer DNA was used to convict innocent people.
And then years and years later, the state of the science finally caught up with the law and justice.
In the Amanda Knox case, Stefan, there was a very good documentary that was produced, I believe, by Netflix last year.
And it really underscored something that I've identified in the Daniel Holtzclaw case as well, which we discussed in February and which is ongoing.
And that is the intersection between fake science and fake news.
The inability of mainstream journalists to understand the way that science has been abused in these cases and to simply acknowledge the fact that so-called evidence that has little probative value is being exploited, is being hyped, to In many ways, self-aggrandize politicized prosecutors.
But as I said, to put so many innocent people behind bars, I believe after more than a year of investigation that Daniel Holtzclaw is one of those people.
And I certainly do not want to have to see him wait 7 or 10 or 20 or 30 years before he's exonerated.
And this is the thing that is disturbing to me.
I'm always focused on the road less taken or opportunity cost because if you have, you know, CCTV video of some particular crime and eyewitnesses and the guy is covered in blood, then you're not going to do a lot more investigation because you feel like you already have the person.
And my concern is that there's this sort of magic spell that you cast over The fog of criminality called DNA, where it's like, boom, we've got the guy, and then confirmation bias kicks in, and you don't pursue alternative leads or options.
And it used to be that eyewitness testimony was considered to be very reliable, and then, of course, a lot of studies showed just how unreliable it was.
So my concern is that the police are kind of adapting themselves to this magic spell of DNA and not doing sort of the grunt work, the footwork, the pounding the pavement and asking questions, alternative views, of criminality.
They're just kind of lasering in because they believe it's infallible when it seems to be far from it.
Yes, that's exactly right.
And DNA and its presence Don't tell you anything about how it got there and when it got there and the circumstances of its presence and its arrival there.
And yet, because of pop culture and Hollywood and a lot of sloppy journalism and entertainment coverage, This has become embedded in the public consciousness.
This is not to say that there aren't very cutting edge and good forensic scientists and police detectives who understand the limitations as well as the possibilities and promise of advances in forensic technology.
And DNA. But it is just one piece of the puzzle in an investigation.
And if you have police detectives, certainly this was the case, in my conclusion, with the Daniel Holtzclaw case, who look the other way at all of the exculpatory evidence and then are on a tunnel-visioned hunt to match what they think is damning smoking gun DNA evidence to their prefab narrative.
This is a recipe for a massive miscarriage of injustice.
And I think finally, after all of the reporting I've done over the last several months, a lot of this is finally coming to the fore.
When we last talked in February, Daniel Koholtzko had filed his direct appeal in the case.
And my A two-part series had come out in December on the one-year anniversary of his conviction.
And at that point in time, I was the only journalist who had brought to light the fact that unknown male DNA had been found on Daniel Holtzclaw's uniform pants.
And of course, to most people's untrained and uninformed minds, the idea of DNA being found on pants Oh my God, that is so damning.
Case closed.
Throw him in behind bars for 263 years.
But there are so many facts that have been left out of the social justice narrative.
And I have been absolutely floored and sickened, Stefan, at so many dilettante social justice journalists who have wandered in this case to drop their stink bombs and slime Daniel Holtzclaw without knowing a single fact in the case.
And this includes people like Soledad O'Brien, who sneered when my two-part documentary came out and said simply in a tweet, "He's guilty." Forget that. When I had asked people to simply look at the facts.
Or Yashir Ali at the Huffington Post, who just was a guest that I could even be tweeting, because my Twitter image for my avatar is an image that says, what if he didn't do it?
And ask people to watch my documentary.
How dare I ask people to simply think for themselves and dig deeper than the surface headlines that we have seen that paint Daniel as some sort of racist sexual predator and monster.
These people can't name three facts, let alone one single fact about the case.
Remember that there were initially 13 accusers who were basically procured by the police detectives in this case after one woman came forward publicly, shopped her story around to the media about being stopped by Daniel during a late-night traffic stop June 18,
2014, and came up with this cockamamie story About being sexually assaulted under the bright lights of a highly prominent traffic intersection as Daniel's own flashers were blinking the entire time for A 15 minute traffic stop.
A number of vehicles had passed by during this 15 minute period.
There was grainy surveillance video which unfortunately the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation very shoddily looked at and And wrote off as not being able to verify anything.
They didn't do any kind of enhancements on the video.
It did confirm everything that Daniel had said in his interrogation.
A video which is available thanks to Brian Bates, the private investigator on the original defense team.
Anybody can watch it on YouTube.
And it is amazing the responses that I've got.
After people have watched that, after I've encouraged them to watch it, Stefan, people who are not only sort of, you know, kind of amateur detectives and just coming at this without any kind of bias or narrative framework, but also people who are professionals who know how Competent investigations and interrogation should be wrong.
And the difference between their interpretation of Daniel's behavior, his actions, his answers, versus these Mayberry detectives who bumbled through this investigation and in the end could not verify anything And it was because of this woman who had come forward,
who was now suing the city of Oklahoma We're good to go.
There was no evidence that any sexual assault had taken place.
She said that she had been forced to put her hands on the hood of the car.
No fingerprints. Nothing.
Nothing to back her up.
Everything to back Daniel up.
And then There was a witch hunt search for someone who matched the DNA that was eventually found on Daniel's zipper of his pants.
And mind you, Stefan, that no other area of the pants was tested.
This is important because most forensic scientists who are worth their salt will tell you that you need to have some sort of substrate control.
So that you can rule out the possibility that this was completely innocent.
This goes back to that transfer DNA that I talked about in so many cases that are now a part of the scientific literature where it was non-intimate.
Indirect transfer, as opposed to, as the prosecutors and the police detectives falsely believed in this case, as a result of sexual contact and rape.
And it was another accuser that was matched to some of the DNA that was found on Daniel's pants.
But what people don't realize and what I started to investigate and report on and shed light on back in December was not only was there unknown male DNA found in all four of the DNA samples that were taken on the fly of the pants both inside and out.
But there were, in one of the samples, at least three unknown contributors.
It is possible that some of that transferred DNA belonged to Daniel, and it is highly possible that some of the male DNA belonged to a completely different male, if not multiple males.
We just don't know.
And it is the existence of these minuscule numbers, a very It's really important, Stefan, because all of the 13 accusers were aggregated into a single trial for Daniel.
And it is that aggregation that really spelled a nightmare for him.
Every single one of the accusations was absurd.
And we've talked about some of the details.
One of the accusers who was caught on tape, which I highlighted and nobody in the Oklahoma City media has highlighted.
One of the accusers who denied seven times on tape That she had been a victim of any kind of inappropriate conduct until the sex crime detective primed the prompt, brought her along, informed her preemptively that they were looking for a bad guy, that there was a police on the streets that was sexually harassing and sexually assaulting women, and that she could be one of them.
And all of a sudden, magically, she transformed her story.
And it was these flimsy circumstantial cases that were yoked To the smoking gun DNA. And we don't have to guess.
We've got at least two jurors on record in the public saying that it was the DNA evidence that convinced them to convict on the other counts.
Well, that's the terrifying thing, is that if DNA is not just a magic spell of guilt for the police, but it's even more so for the jurors.
If the jurors hear DNA in contact, and again, you can shake someone's hand as a man, you can unzip your fly to go to the washroom, and then look, you have that person's DNA on your zipper.
And as you pointed out in your investigative reporting, Michelle, They falsely claimed that they knew where in the body the DNA had come from, which as far as I understand it is not possible.
But if the jury hears this magic DNA, if they've been conditioned by all this CSI magical nonsense about the incontrovertibility and the specificity regarding the body part it comes from and so on, and that there's no other possible way it can get there, it does give them a sense of certainty that, to me, can't get close to reasonable doubt when all the facts are taken into account.
Yes, that's right.
And it was in the closing argument of the Assistant District Attorney Galen Giger that he falsely asserted that the skin cell DNA could only have come from the vaginal fluid of the 17-year-old accuser to whom the DNA was matched.
And this is false on its face because even in the testimony at trial, The crime lab expert who testified, Elaine Taylor, said that she saw no visible stains that could be identified as, you know, stains that were vaginal fluid.
She did not use an alternative light source that would have bolstered that case.
And then she herself said that there was no test that she had done, no bodily or serological tests that she had done to confirm that.
And in fact, there's a lot of debate about whether such tests are reliable at this point, and they aren't used at this point in most trials.
They do exist in Australia and other parts of the world.
They are using them.
But in this particular case, nothing was done, and there is no way that there is any scientific underpinning for asserting what Galen Giger asserted.
And just to bring you up to date now, there have been a number of secret hearings.
And in this case, on June 26th and June 27th, what happened was that the Court of Criminal Appeals remanded a secret issue back to the trial judge.
The state attorney general in May had filed an emergency motion under seal with sealed evidence, secret evidence that Daniel has not seen, that his public defenders have not seen.
They are not aware of the actual nature of this secret information.
But what we do know as a result of at least two Semi-conscious reporters in Oklahoma City is that in attendance at these secret hearings was the crime lab supervisor, in other words, the boss of Elaine Taylor.
His name is Campbell Ruddock, and he was captured on surveillance video that was acquired by these two reporters who filed a public information request going in and out of the courtroom.
And it really is unprecedented, the secrecy of these hearings.
I've talked to legal observers both inside and outside of Oklahoma who are completely flummoxed.
That's not to say that there might not be a completely legitimate reason for the secrecy.
Let's suppose, for example, that the privileged information was happened upon in the course of a wider investigation.
Perhaps there are other cases that are Open.
That possible misconduct in the crime lab may have affected.
And I say this not as empty speculation but there is a history in the Oklahoma City Police Department and it is very famous or rather infamous in forensic science circles that in the early 2000s that there was a police chemist named Joyce Gilchrist.
An African-American forensic scientist in the OCPD lab who's conspiring with one of the assistant district attorneys in that county, a man named Bob Macy.
And they fabricated DNA evidence.
We're talking not just the kind of DNA evidence that's involved in this case specifically, but things like hair and I think possibly fingerprints.
And there were countless numbers of innocent people who were put behind bars because of the systemic misconduct in OCPD. It was supposed to Lead to a number of reforms, and it's quite possible that none of that ever happened.
I think that's what's so daunting here, is that a lot of people in the public have been left in the dark, taxpayers certainly, and Daniel and his lawyers are in a holding pattern now, waiting to see if they are going to have access to the transcripts of these secret hearings, and whether they will be able to use the secret evidence as they move forward in the criminal appeal.
It's astonishing. You also wrote about Annie Dukin in Massachusetts, 21,000 plus drug cases dismissed.
Give people a sense of what, I mean, this is not obviously everywhere in the crime labs, but it is occurring, at least it's erupted in certain crime labs.
Some of the shady stuff that is going on on crime labs, I think really needs to be understood by the general public.
Yes. And this crisis has been going on for a while now.
I mean, the Joyce Kilchrist matter was in the early 2000s.
The Annie Dukin scandal in Massachusetts has been ongoing for years.
And I think whether it's Annie Dukin or another woman, Sonia Farrak, who was also in the Massachusetts crime lab, who was Unfortunately, smoking all of the drug evidence rather than analyzing it.
There are cases in North Carolina, Texas, Arizona, where it's clear that we're not just talking about rogue chemists or rogue forensic scientists.
In the Annie Dukin matter, for example, and the Sonia Farrak matter, you had people in the Attorney General's office who were Actively trying to cover up the scandal.
At least two assistant attorney generals in Massachusetts who knew what was going on in the Sonia Farrak case and tried to downplay it and tried to suppress evidence.
They were recently chastised by a district judge in Massachusetts, but there have been no consequences.
Slaps on the wrist for the actual chemists who were involved in this kind of fabrication.
In the Joyce Gilchrist matter, she passed away a couple years ago unrepentant Claiming that the persecution of her was in retaliation for her complaining about sexual assault and no punishment at all.
Unless there are incentives for whistleblowers as opposed to the natural bureaucratic incentives of prosecutors to launch these kinds of Witch hunts that are not scientific or evidence-based, that are so-called social justice victim-driven as opposed to truth-driven, we're just going to see more and more innocent people thrown behind bars.
And it is a weird kind of double thing, Michelle, when you look at some of the hysteria around, say, Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin and so on, wherein the police force is considered to be by some irredeemably corrupt and tainted and problematic and incompetent and vicious and so on.
But then with someone like Daniel Holtzclaw, suddenly the police force is, you know, a paragon of virtue, can't do anything wrong, is never politically motivated and so on.
Having these two opposing views of the police system in the U.S. doesn't seem to be very consistent, to put it mildly.
That's a special kind of cognitive dissonance, for sure.
And it's strange because, you know...
You have the case of Daniel Holtzclaw, who was so committed to his job.
He loved his job.
And I think in some sense, my reading of it is that he was punished for taking his job too seriously.
He loathed The lazy police officer who refused to get out of his vehicle.
I think because of his size and his sense of confidence, he did not fear being out on the streets alone.
And he policed the worst part of Oklahoma City.
He was in the northeast sector.
He worked overnight patrols, 12 to 14 And he came across all sorts of people.
And even in the three short years that he was on the force, there were many good cops, many good supervisors who realized his potential.
He had been promoted to a stint on the gang unit.
And people on the streets knew, and I've had many conversations with him over the last several months, In person and over the phone, knew that he wasn't one of those people that was just going to phone it in.
And I think in some ways, this spelled doom for him.
I mean, he took to heart all of the sort of left-wing ideas that we've heard over the last 20, 25 years about community policing.
You know, he wasn't just gonna eat a donut and, you know, then fill out the paperwork and go home.
He was doing intelligence.
He was talking to people.
There was one of his accusers, Shardarian Hill, who I believe we've talked about before, who crunched a vial of PCP outside of an apartment building.
And he helped rush her to the hospital to save her life.
And she had been in the hospital emergency room.
She was high as a kite.
He had to actually leave her at one point because another drug-addicted inmate who had been in the hospital had tried to escape, so he had to help a partner chase her down.
He came back to check on her and then later checked on her As a human being, to see how she was doing.
And it turned out that she, of course, ended up back in jail.
And he did something that was painted as so untoward and damning and an indictment.
He reached out to her on Facebook, obviously in hindsight.
He shouldn't have done it, but he wanted to see how she was doing.
And those Facebook messages, which I have seen, are completely innocuous.
There is nothing inappropriate in the contact that he had made with her.
And yet, after this woman saw the accusations come public by Janie Liggins, who was stopped at that June 18th traffic stop, she came forward and Manufactured the most ridiculous sexual assault scenario that somehow she had been sexually assaulted by Daniel in the busy hospital ER Which was right across the way from the supply cabinet,
the nurses station, and in the middle of him having to leave to go chase another inmate down.
She was asserting that he had sexually assaulted her.
It was so preposterous that the jury, you know, as addled as it was, Saw through this transparently and cleared him of every single last one of the charges related to this preposterous scheme.
And yet, this accuser has become one of the two most public faces of these so-called victims of Daniel Holtzclaw.
And she, too, is suing him in those high-dollar civil lawsuits, even though the jury saw right through her lies.
It is...
Chilling to think for me, Michelle, about, you know, these are the communities, these poor communities, ghetto communities and so on.
These are the communities that most need a robust police presence.
And there are plenty of people in those communities who call the cops when there's trouble, who are very happy when a cop car goes up and down the block, who need the protection from the dangerous elements within that community.
And my concern, I think, as we've talked about before, I really want to reinforce it here is I think the Ferguson effect is being fairly well established that cops are afraid of confrontations in these kinds of communities, particularly with blacks or Hispanics or other sort of victim category in the social justice warrior narrative, victim categories. So I am sort of concerned.
It's like, well, maybe I will stay in my car.
Well, maybe I won't go out and talk to these people.
Well, maybe I'll just drive past if I see something going on, whereas formerly I might have gone to investigate.
Because when people inside the profession, cops and so on, when they look at what happened to Daniel, they look at it in a very different way than I do, and to some degree even than you do, which is that they know the standard of evidence.
They know the kind of things that go on that you and I haven't directly experienced over the years.
And so if he has been railroaded in order to appease the mob, they look at that and they say,"'There but for the grace of God go I.'" And I think it does end up with reduced policing in these neighborhoods.
I mean, look at Chicago and the shootings that go on there every weekend.
This isn't coming out of nowhere.
It also increases suspicion of the cops.
It reduces community openness to talk to the cops, which means crimes are that much harder to solve and so on.
I can't see who wins but the people who end up with big settlements and the criminals in the community.
I agree. I think it's a tragedy in our inner cities and of course the irony is that you and I are the ones that are cast as you know the uncompassionate racists who don't care About what goes on in these inner cities.
And I think that the Daniel Holtzclaw case, when more law enforcement officers realize the extent of the miscarriage of justice, the fake science, the fake news, the incompetence, the railroading, that that chilling effect is going to spread.
And, you know, there's that old Um, phrase of going galt, you know, sort of in the business context.
But I think that we're seeing it now in police communities as well.
And I know that Jenny Holtzclaw, Daniel's brother, has heard from, uh, potential police officers, people who are on the force, people who are rookies, people who are contemplating Entering the profession who are asking for advice, well, would you go into it now?
And how, after seeing everything that's happened in this case, could I possibly recommend that a young idealistic person who's committed to protect and serve go into this profession?
Specifically, Stefan, because you have so many of these social justice police bureaucrats throwing their best and brightest under the bus.
I remind you that the police chief I think eight months before the trial even began, terminated Daniel Holtzclaw without knowing the evidence.
And remember, I gave you one example where the sex crime detective Rocky Gregory did not put exculpatory evidence in his police report.
That was just one example.
It's clear to me that this police chief had no idea what was going on under his nose, but was much more committed to making a public show of appeasing the social justice mob in the aftermath of Ferguson than he was in making sure that his own committed law enforcement officer got a fair trial.
Then there's the FOP, and I know you probably have many Viewers and listeners who work in law enforcement, either active duty or retired, who know that some of these FOP chapters are as likely to throw their own under the bus as Daniel Holtzclaw was.
There was a case in South Carolina where a police officer was involved in one of these controversial shootings.
And the FOP to whom he had paid his Monthly dues for years and years, refused to represent him.
And he actually turned around and sued them in that case.
And if you're putting in these dues as similar to the idea of insurance in a civilian context, And they don't come through for you when they need it exactly in circumstances like this.
That is a dereliction of duty, at the very least, and at most the worst kind of moral betrayal of people on the thin blue line.
Well, I think that...
The basic reality is it's a short-term pragmatic calculation to say, well, we can throw one guy in jail and we can head off two weeks of rioting.
And this is no longer the rule of law.
This is the rule of the mob. This is no longer justice.
This is appeasement.
How many times do human beings and human societies have to learn exactly where appeasement leads?
But let's close off, Michelle, with talking about, I mean, what Daniel is going through is almost beyond imagination.
And my heart goes out to where he's at.
And I hope that more facts can come out and more truth can come out.
Outside of this particular case, you know, these cases can be lightning rods for significant change and uprooting.
Terrible practices, terrible habits, terrible beliefs, terrible procedures, and so on.
What is it that you hope, outside of bringing more light on this case, Michelle, what is it that you hope could come out of this if he's exonerated, if he's retried, and if he's set free, and if the facts that you put forward turned out to prevail?
What do you hope might come out of it in a larger context in America?
I think there are some concrete policy reforms that are already underway in states that are ahead of the curve.
For example, you have things like post-conviction integrity units in several states across the country that review cases.
Things like the Innocence Project, movements like that, have helped shed light on a lot of the junk science.
There have been upwards of 2,000 exonerations in the country since legal observers started tracking this.
And I think the University of Michigan has a registry of exonerations of cases.
And they span They span race.
They span gender.
They span socioeconomic lines.
I am finding that although I had always perceived the Innocence Project as unrepentantly left-wing, that there are many good people in these organizations who are committed to true justice, not just social justice.
And I think raising awareness of wrongful convictions and accusations, particularly in this context, Of being charged falsely with sexual assault.
And in Daniel's case, it was so extreme.
It was the worst kind of perfect storm of race and gender and anti-cop animus, the timing of it all.
I do feel that if all of what happened to him happened now, that things might be entirely different.
And what I'm trying to prevent is the next Daniel Holtzclaw I care deeply about his family and him individually.
I know that he is committed to, once he gets out, he doesn't say if, but once, being a voice for other exonerees.
And for season two of Michelle Malkin Investigates on CRTV, we actually have a new episode that we're calling Railroaded, Surviving Wrongful Convictions, in which we highlight the cases, particularly of other law enforcement officers, a man named Ray Spencer in Washington State, another man in Texas named Brian Franklin, who went through this same kind of hell Over the course of 20, 21 years, and now we're trying to get their lives back together.
I would say if there's one other area that needs reform, it's the media, fake news, not just at the national level, but at the local level.
I had to spend all last week, Stefan, Trying to get a local NBC, it was an NBC affiliate, I can't remember which one, Channel 9 News, which falsely asserted that it was Daniel that insisted on secrecy during these secret hearings that I talked about, when that is a bold-faced lie.
All you have to do is read the motions and find out who was the one that was guarding that secret information.
And they were so stubbornly insistent that they had not disseminated this lie when it was transparent.
So this happens at the local level as well.
And it's that kind of fake news that really gets under Daniel's skin.
I think it upsets him the most that people won't just do their jobs.
Oh, I mean, anybody who's had any kind of public face knows that the media can be a bit of a slippery electric eel when it comes to dealing with reputation.
So I wanted to remind people, please check out Michelle's website, michellemalkin.com.
Watch this excellent show at crtv.com.
And if you want to know more about what's going on with Daniel Haltzclaw and to follow the updates, you can go to haltzclawtrial.com.
I'm going to take a deep breath and spell it out.
H-O-L-T-Z. C-L-A-W-T-R-I-A-L dot com.
It's well worth checking out, you know, and everyone remember, you know, it's easy to join the mob.
It's easy to join the mob and bay at whoever's unpopular in the moment or whoever's targeted by the mob.
And you think you're buying yourself some time, but the mob always turns on someone and one day that person could be you.
So have empathy for those who are in the mob sites because that's where the real justice comes from.
Joining the mob is easy. Standing to the mob and saying stop and evaluate is tough, but I think it is the...
The job, if not the calling of all good people to do so.
