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Feb. 26, 2017 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:33:59

3604 Arguments Not Acronyms - Call In Show - February 23rd, 2017

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	Hi everybody, Stefan Molyneux from Freedomain Radio.
	A really good, sensitive, deep and powerful show tonight.
	The first caller got very emotional talking about growing up without a father and his addictions to sexuality and other things.
	And the second caller wanted to know what I thought of MGTOW and men's rights and feminism and we had a conversation about that.
	But more about how we kind of always want to put things into categories rather than just deal directly with arguments.
	Now, the third caller was a great woman from Honduras who was concerned about Latinos who come to America and try to turn America into the country that they came from.
	And we had a good, meaty, deep conversation about all kinds of topics in this area.
	It was really a great chat.
	The fourth caller wanted to know...
	See, he'd heard my somewhat aborted argument with the communist about Native Americans or indigenous to North America populations versus the European settlers.
	How do you rationally work out these conflicts between two different cultures with two different ways of looking at...
	And what do you do if your property is stolen intergenerationally?
	Can you get it back?
	When?
	How?
	And it was really, really a great conversation.
	I really, really enjoyed it.
	So thanks so much for listening and supporting the show, which you can, and dare say, I think by this point should do, at freedomainradio.com slash donate.
	Thanks so much for all of your support, everyone.
	Alright, well up first today we have Jay.
	Jay wrote into the show and said, I am a 21 year old university student.
	I have a girlfriend for about 6 months.
	When I first met her I was committed to having as much casual sex with as many different girls as possible, and I still feel a strong compulsion to do this, despite the moral doubt I have about it since following your show.
	Upon meeting this girl, it became apparent that she was amazing and a candidate for marriage, so I dropped my decadent approach to sex, and I am now six months into a monogamous relationship.
	I still have a drive to be single and to have sex with as many girls as possible.
	I feel like a liar and a deceiver every day because I assured her of my commitment to her and that I plan to marry her, but I am not sure.
	I lie about my feelings.
	I took her virginity and assured her of long-term commitment when I wasn't actually sure about it.
	I really wanted to take a virginity to appease my ego.
	I feel terrible about it.
	I feel like I am the problem.
	I am the one contributing to the moral decay in romantic relationships in the West.
	I am the creator of women who create MGTOW guys.
	That's from Jay.
	Jay, how are you doing tonight?
	I'm okay.
	How are you, Stefan?
	I'm well.
	I'm well, thanks.
	Well, I appreciate the honesty of the message.
	Thank you.
	Do you want me to sort of take charge of this conversation?
	Do you want to have more of a back and forth?
	What's your preference?
	My message was pretty, it sums up what I'm feeling pretty well.
	So, I mean, I'd be happy to hear what you have to say and then talk more later.
	Got it.
	Did you grow up without a father?
	Yes, I did.
	Right.
	How did I know that?
	Our selection.
	Our selection.
	Good.
	Good.
	You're down with the lingo.
	I appreciate that.
	And what was your childhood like growing up, Jay?
	It only really occurred to me that I missed out on a lot by not having a father really in the past few years when I started trying to initiate relationships with women.
	That was when it really became apparent to me that it damaged me to not have that male influence growing up.
	When I was younger, I was fairly sociable.
	I always had friends, but I've definitely Recent years, I definitely think that I'm...
	The problems of it have become more apparent to me.
	But I had a relatively happy childhood.
	I don't recall my mom ever hitting me.
	I feel like maybe she did at one point.
	I think she maybe tried it out, but I don't have any actual memory of her hitting me.
	She was always very loving.
	When I became a teenager, some bickering and fighting, but I had a peaceful childhood.
	When you say no male influences around, what do you mean?
	Like no grandparents, no uncles, no older cousins, no what, what?
	Well, I have one older brother.
	I don't...
	No, no, no, no, no.
	Sorry.
	Siblings don't count, really.
	Because you're both kids, right?
	I mean, unless he's like 10 years older or something, but...
	Yeah, and only a couple years older.
	Right.
	Well, I don't have any contact with my father's side of the family, but my maternal grandfather, I saw intermittently once in a while.
	My mom had a poor relationship with him.
	I heard bad things about him growing up, so I never saw much of him.
	My mom's sister's husband, who's the only...
	I have no...
	Blood-related uncles, but I see him once in a while.
	I haven't seen him for a few years, but every time I do, I don't know.
	I like talking to him.
	I feel like he's had a successful career.
	He's got a happy family that's stuck together.
	He's got a happy daughter, happy wife.
	And so I look up to him, and when I get a chance to talk to him, I definitely enjoy it.
	But he wasn't much of an active role model for me.
	And that was who again?
	That was my mom's sister's husband.
	Right.
	And what happened to your parents, Jay?
	What happened to your dad?
	Well, only since I've started, I kind of always took my mom's story of it just for granted as, okay, whatever she says goes.
	But since listening to the show, I've started to think about it more and question it.
	And I've been meaning to sit her down more and push the topic and really get more answers out of her.
	And I've started doing that.
	Well, what's her story about it first?
	Her story is basically...
	You don't want me to take a guess, do you?
	Sure, take a guess.
	I'm going to guess, I'm going to go out on a limb here, Jay, and I'm going to guess that her story about it is that she really wasn't at fault, she really wasn't to blame.
	He seemed like a nice guy, and it turns out that he just changed, changed, I tell you, after a certain amount of time went along.
	And then, on realizing that he'd changed for the worst, or discovering something bad about him, which there was no way to know ahead of time, she did the very best for her family in keeping you away from him.
	She wasn't that deceptive.
	She acknowledges that she made a bad choice.
	She was even upfront about the fact that he never really held down a job.
	He was never a stable person.
	She pins a lot of that down to him suffering a head injury when he was younger and being kind of socially different after that, not being very conformist, being not a stitch that fits well into the quilt of society.
	Bad analogy, but you get the idea.
	But she says that...
	She was always attracted to him because she never really felt like she fit in either and she's kind of like attracted to weirdos and she said so anyway she had her first kid with him they were never married she had my older brother and he she said that he was always kind of pathetic in the fact that like he would try to provide but he didn't really bring much at all and he couldn't hold down a job And,
	you know, after listening to the show just a couple weeks ago, I was talking, I brought up this subject and I asked her, okay, if he had already showed that he was not a stable father figure, not able to be a provider or anything like that, why did you have another kid with him?
	Me.
	And she basically said, like, oh, well, you know, I was already...
	Sorry, Jay, but that applies to the first kid too, right?
	It does.
	Can't hold down a job, has a head injury, really an outsider, kind of a weirdo.
	Let's make more with him.
	Right?
	So it applies to both of you, doesn't it?
	It does.
	It does.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And what does she say?
	She said, well, I figured that I'm already in this situation with your older brother.
	I've heard that it might even be a worse situation if it was just me and your older brother trying to make it in the world and get by a very intense relationship.
	So she, so I, I don't know how much if she, she doubled down.
	Yeah.
	Right on, Harry the head wound guy.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And then what happened?
	And so, he was around for...
	I don't really know the specifics of their relationship, but I know that they weren't...
	Um, I don't even know if when I was had, if they were trying to keep a family together, but he, um, uh, I think he was like, I asked her, like, did he ever hold me?
	She said, yes.
	I think like before I was, before I turned one, but I never, I mean, I don't remember him.
	I've seen a couple of pictures.
	He held you once before you were one.
	No, no, no.
	He held me before I was one.
	I don't know if it was only once, but I would assume not.
	But he saw me, you know, after I was born.
	But when did they split up?
	I suppose before I turned one.
	But I know that once in a while they have a correspondence over the phone.
	He lives on the other side of the country.
	He lives on the West Coast.
	Is that where he moved when he left you guys?
	Sorry?
	Is that where he moved when he left you?
	No, we were all on the west coast originally and then we came to the east coast.
	My mom went back to school to get her masters and get a better job.
	Well, at that time we moved back in with her mom while she kind of was getting like a career and education back together and now and then eventually moved out and she got a better job and we got by.
	And does she work for the government?
	Yeah.
	Of course she does.
	Of course she does.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	And how long was your dad around after they split up before you guys moved east?
	I really...
	I feel almost embarrassed that I don't even know these details.
	I really want to...
	No, no, Jay, it's not your fault.
	Yeah.
	It's not your fault.
	You're not supposed to be an archaeologist of your own damn personal history.
	It's not like somebody's going to ask you to recreate the burnt library of Alexandria.
	I mean, this is stuff that you should know because your mom has told you honestly and openly.
	This is your history.
	This is what affects you as a human being.
	You should know all of this.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I should.
	But it's not your fault that you don't, right?
	This is, right?
	Right, right.
	But no, I don't know.
	You have no memory of your dad, really, right?
	I have no memory of him.
	My only memory is looking at a couple pictures of him.
	But even though I saw those years ago, I don't remember what he looks like.
	But was he not, when you guys were all out on the West Coast, did he not spend any time with his kids?
	Um, I don't, I don't think so.
	I think my, my mom, I know she got a boyfriend who was to some degree around us, like played with us to some degree.
	Luckily, you know, he, I have no recollection of him ever hitting us or being abusive in any way.
	I don't think he ever was, but, um, I have a few memories of him being around me and my brother, but none of my biological father.
	And then eventually my mom We cut it off with him.
	We moved out to the East Coast and she hasn't tried to bring a guy around us since.
	She thought that that would be a bad idea.
	She had a boyfriend or two throughout me and my brother's upbringing on the East Coast, but he was never around us.
	My mom would just sometimes go out and see him.
	Did she make efforts to have your father in your life?
	No.
	Why not?
	I mean, did she not think that two boys might need a father of some kind?
	Um, I don't know.
	I think she must.
	She must.
	I mean, it's...
	I don't know.
	When I was growing up, and I had this conversation with my friends, for example, and, like, it was always, like, they would say, oh, you don't have a dad?
	Like, do you, um...
	That must suck.
	I'm so sorry to hear that.
	I'd be like, oh, I don't know.
	I don't care.
	I think my mom brought this.
	You can't miss what you don't have.
	I would say that.
	Yeah.
	Oh, no.
	I've been down that road.
	You know, like if you have one arm, you don't really miss it until you actually have to clap.
	Exactly.
	Yeah, until you actually get older and start getting into romantic relationships.
	In a way, you don't even know what a hole has been left in your heart.
	Exactly.
	And that was the clapping for me.
	People ask me that, but I didn't think much of it.
	But recently, like I said, in the past couple of years, it's kind of become apparent to me that there was that hole there.
	When I was in boarding school, we had Saturday.
	Saturday mornings, we'd get a haircut.
	And we would then write letters home to our parents.
	Yeah.
	And I wrote one letter to my mother, and I wrote one letter to my father.
	And I was six.
	And, you know, let's just say my father's name is Bob, right?
	And I would write, dear Bob, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
	And I remember the headmaster sat me down and said, this is a disrespectful way to refer to your father, right?
	And I'm like, but he's not my father.
	Because fathering is something you do, not sperm you donate, right?
	I didn't put it that way, but I said I don't follow.
	I could barely see the guy, and he's the other side of the world.
	You must show respect to your father.
	I don't know if all of this stuff in me is like, I don't know if it's just genetic or whatever, but it's just like, I mean, yeah, okay, I can write the word father, but You know, nobody was like, well, why are you using his first name rather than referring to him as your father?
	Anything you want to tell us about?
	No, no.
	Conform to the form.
	Make him feel like your father.
	Write these things.
	And it's just like, okay.
	Nobody's interested.
	Nobody's curious.
	But, you know, parent is not a noun.
	It's a verb, right?
	It's something you do.
	I'm a painter.
	Why?
	I have a paintbrush.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Not really painting?
	No!
	But I'm a painter!
	Okay.
	So, no, I understand this odd thing when it's not there.
	It shows up in really oblique ways.
	It shows up in ways like your manhoardom, right?
	Like it shows up in that way, right?
	Yeah.
	You're like a sperm crop duster over a field full of young ladies, right?
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Okay.
	So, sorry.
	Sorry to interrupt that.
	So, your mother didn't get your father involved, didn't keep your father involved, didn't get other men involved to be father figures for you.
	So, is it fair to say that she just didn't even think that you needed this kind of thing?
	She did.
	At one point, when I was younger, enroll...
	My brother and I in Big Brother, Big Sister, that program.
	Right.
	How did that go?
	I really liked the...
	I had a great time.
	I was maybe like 10, 11, 12, something like that.
	And he was late 20s.
	And it was fun.
	It felt good.
	I never really...
	I don't know.
	I don't know exactly why.
	Honestly, I don't even remember why that ended for us, why we stopped doing that.
	I think we moved.
	Yeah, I'm pretty sure we moved, but it was...
	You know, those places are all over, eh?
	Yeah.
	I don't know.
	I guess my mom didn't think to enroll us again.
	I was always resentful for her not pushing us as kids, because I feel like, as a 12-year-old, I don't know what's best for me.
	What do you mean, pushing you?
	Pushing you how?
	I feel like she asked organized sports, for example.
	I was never part of organized sports and I wish I was.
	I think she put me in skating once and I was pretty good.
	I was really fast, actually.
	I was a good skater, kind of intuitively.
	And she asked, do you want to do hockey?
	Do you want to do something?
	Do you want to get involved with that?
	And I was like, eh.
	I don't know.
	I was a lazy kid.
	And I wish she had pushed me for that.
	And I wish when we moved, she got us enrolled in big brother, big sister again.
	Because now, looking back, I feel like that would have been of big value to me, especially from 12 onwards, just growing up.
	Why didn't you want to get involved in hockey?
	Lazy is not an answer, right?
	But why?
	You liked it.
	You were fast.
	It was good.
	Yeah, it felt good to go fast.
	I remember...
	Because it's expensive as hell, right?
	It is.
	I remember...
	My memory of it now is when she asked me that question, I could sense...
	She didn't want you to get involved in hockey.
	Yeah, I was always kind of conscious, got a sense one way or another of the money, the stress of money.
	Well, it's not just the stress of money.
	I mean, there's a lot of early morning practices.
	Travel, right?
	You've got to get on the buses and go do your away games, right?
	Mike did this all.
	I mean, it's a big deal.
	And, you know, you outgrow your equipment and you need more and it's very expensive.
	It's like, you might as well just stuff a hockey bag full of gold and throw it in a ravine.
	Yeah, pretty much.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, so I recall thinking that and...
	I had to do all of the stuff that was cheap and local and didn't interfere with my mom's cost or schedule.
	Right.
	Right, so I did like swim team, water polo team, tennis, cross country, running, and a whole bunch of other stuff, some soccer and so on, because it was relatively cheap or free.
	I mean, I would go practice tennis when it was like sort of free open courts and stuff like that and get involved where it was like a couple of bucks maybe to go in.
	So, yeah, so you had to...
	I had to do stuff that was free and I could do on my own.
	I was very close to school when I was in Dumb Mills.
	I was like, you know, five minutes or ten minutes walk from the school, so that wasn't so bad.
	And I could go to the early morning swim practices and I could go, you know, there would be buses to take us and all that.
	So I could do stuff as long as it wasn't expensive and it didn't interfere with my mom's schedule.
	And this is not just because my mom, you know, didn't want to be bothered.
	I mean, she literally would have no time, no energy, right?
	I mean, she was working full-time.
	Yeah.
	And how did your mom...
	Pay the bills when you guys were out of waste.
	Sorry, just to interject there.
	When I got to middle school, I did get involved in sports through my public school and I definitely enjoyed them.
	I was on a bunch of teams and that was great.
	So that was good.
	I don't know, I wish I had, um, so yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't, I did still enjoy that, but yeah.
	One of the first things, sorry to interrupt, Jay, one of the first things I can tell about someone is whether they ever played competitive sports.
	Really?
	It's a big, big deal, particularly for boys.
	There's a social comfort, there's a social ease, a sense of conversationalist, and they tend not to be emotionally reactive.
	You know, like all these snowflakes and these highly reactionary kids and so on.
	In my experience, they just didn't play sports.
	Because in sports, you learn to take your lickings and keep on ticking, right?
	You learn to get knocked down and get back up again.
	You learn how to lose with grace.
	You learn how not everything's going to go your way and hard work pays off.
	You know, sports are fantastic for character building.
	In my opinion.
	And the kids who never got involved in sports, they're brittle.
	They're defensive.
	They're volatile.
	They're reactionary.
	They've just, you know, you can shield kids from a lot of reality in the classroom.
	Everybody gets a trophy.
	But when you get out into, even if it's just like backyard stickball, even if it's like street hockey, even if it's anything...
	You get humbled because there are always people around who are better than you.
	You learn how to lose gracefully.
	You learn how to push through being tired.
	You just learn to toughen up in so many different ways.
	And if you look around, I sort of invite the audience to do this as a whole.
	Look around at the people around you.
	Give a sense of their, you know, the personality traits I've been talking about.
	And then ask them if they played a lot of sports.
	And I don't mean like really, really hyper-structured ones.
	And I don't necessarily even mean the ones in school, like out of school, professional.
	The more unsupervised, the better.
	Because when you've got unsupervised sports, you'll have to work things out.
	You know, was this in or out?
	Was it, you know, was it a foul or not?
	You all got to work through a lot of negotiation and all that.
	And, um...
	If it's less structured, the better.
	And, you know, I think that what happens to a lot of kids in school, they've gone through this very structured environment where the adults decide everything.
	You never have to negotiate.
	You never have to fight for your point of view because it's all decided by some outside party.
	And somebody with a whistle negotiates on your behalf and then you get to college and don't know how to do it.
	Anyway, sorry, go on.
	Yeah, no, no, it's great.
	I... When I eventually have kids, I'm definitely going to be enrolled in organized sports.
	I think it's great.
	I'm 100% with you on that.
	Hopefully it won't be the Hunger Games by that time, but we're working on it.
	On the West Coast, I know it was definitely tight.
	At one point, the first few years of my life, we lived in two different trailers, and then She had some friend or something who owned a property but wasn't using it.
	We could rent it for what I assume would be below market value.
	We lived on there for a while.
	Somehow she managed to stay home with us.
	Prior to having us, I think she worked seasonally as a tree planter.
	And made decent money doing it seasonally.
	Well, yeah, decent money at the extent of shredding your body for the future, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's hard work, man.
	I've known people that I tree planted in my youth.
	And how can you tell?
	Because I can't climb stairs anymore.
	Yeah.
	It's rough.
	So I still don't understand what the hell you lived on.
	She was staying home with you guys.
	And did you have to get out suddenly if the people who owned the trailer came home?
	I mean, how did you live?
	I know she got some help from her mom, so my grandma, who was, you know, working full-time.
	And I'm not totally sure.
	So, you know, not to sound too disrespectful, but she kind of went from leeching off other people to getting a job in the government.
	Yeah.
	She is woman.
	Hear her roar.
	No, it's true.
	And I never thought about that until I started listening to the show and familiarizing myself with libertarian principles and all that.
	But it's not good.
	Now, when it came to...
	Dating.
	When did you first start dating?
	I don't even know if kids date anymore.
	I mean, I don't want to get all Tom Wolfe on your hooking up paradigm.
	But when you started getting romantically involved with girls, how old were you?
	That was grade 7.
	And you must have had a sex drive that could power a giant rocket sled out past Jupiter.
	Is that fair to say?
	I had a pretty high sex drive.
	I would call myself an internet porn addict.
	I still struggle with it now, but I'll go months now without Looking at it, and I'm proud of that.
	But I had a high sex drive, and when I couldn't satiate that with an actual girl, I was, you know, from a young age, I was just looking at points.
	Well, you've got to be able to concentrate once in a while, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Yeah.
	And so, when you were dating, sort of early to mid-teens and so on, Was it because you liked a girl or was it because you wanted sex?
	And I'm not saying these two are mutually exclusive, of course, right?
	But if you had to sort of put one side or the other.
	At that very young age...
	Well, here's the thing.
	I didn't even...
	I didn't even...
	Like, I had two, you know, quote-unquote girlfriends.
	One in grade 7 and one in grade 8.
	Yeah.
	Two in that time period.
	And I never, I mean, I kissed them.
	So, I mean, I was never really pursuing sex at that stage, although I wanted to.
	And, you know, I was a horny little teenager.
	But I never got to that stage.
	But I don't know.
	Sorry, Tindra, but what did your mom say about dating to you?
	Or did she give you any guidance or anything like that?
	No.
	I don't think I ever got any piece of...
	Dating advice from my mom until maybe...
	Why do you think that is?
	Because, you know, I mean, there's STDs, pregnancy risks, psycho bunny boilers that can stalk you all the way back to your cabin.
	I mean, it's a dangerous world out there.
	Unsupervised, young, feral things going at each other like, you know, a squirrel on a nut bag.
	And there is significant risks out there, sexually.
	Yeah.
	And it seems weird to me That parents don't sex-proof their kids.
	You know, you street-proof your kids, you sort of baby-proof your house and so on because there's risks, right?
	Right.
	And why do you think she didn't tell you anything about dating or women or anything like that?
	I know after I had, she had suspected that I had become sexually active, she said, like, you know, well, as long as I hope you're being safe, you know, like condoms, etc.
	I was like, I know, mom, I know.
	But we never had a real discussion prior to that that I can recall.
	Because she's not a dumb woman, right?
	She got educated.
	She said she got a degree, a graduate degree?
	Correct, yeah, a master's.
	Okay.
	Okay, so, you know, IQ 115, 120, probably.
	I don't know what it is at these days for college, but that's where it was when I was younger.
	So why didn't she...
	I'm sorry?
	Yeah, she's smarter than average.
	Smarter than average, yeah.
	Did she think that you didn't need any advice for dating?
	Did she think you had it all figured out?
	Did she...
	I mean, I don't quite understand...
	You're wandering out into a realm where one mistake can screw up your entire life.
	Like one broken condom, one woman who sperm jacks you, one false rape allegation, one God knows what, right?
	Yeah.
	Like, why not say something?
	I've never, I'm not quite forget.
	Dads will talk, I think, fairly frankly about this stuff, but I just, I don't quite understand why single moms in particular just, off you go!
	You and your hormones and your penis, which is always pointing north, if by north we mean vagina.
	Off you go.
	Good luck.
	You're young.
	You're overwhelmed with hormones.
	You can't think straight.
	There's no structure.
	No chaperones.
	Good luck.
	Off you go into the woods.
	Can I get a penknife?
	No.
	Find some brittle fungus and use that as a weapon to bring down a moose.
	Good luck.
	Why?
	This is hugely important.
	Why?
	It beats me.
	I mean, she...
	I'm trying to think.
	I mean, I feel like little bits here and there she made comments.
	I mean, my first...
	What I would say my real first relationship, which was a couple years ago, she noticed that I was...
	I mean, it was not a healthy relationship.
	I was like...
	She would hear me crying in the room on my phone.
	And she said, like, why are you so...
	I don't know.
	She didn't even really, like...
	She probably, okay, she Probably asked me questions of like, you know, how is it like what's wrong?
	But I was never very emotionally open to my mom anyway.
	Like if she would, you know, extend a little feeler out to ask me questions about, you know, girls or dating, I definitely closed her off.
	I didn't I didn't want to talk about it with her.
	I felt that in regards to date, I mean, when I was in high school and dating, I didn't really know much, but I wasn't really pursuing it either.
	And then When I got a little bit older, now in university, I felt that I already knew what I needed to know and I don't want my mom's advice.
	And especially now, recently, I really don't want my mom's advice because my mom fucked up.
	Sorry for the language, but I don't care about that.
	Now, Jay, I'm going to tell you what I think just about this situation, not as a whole, but and tell me, you know, when I'm done, if it doesn't match up.
	But this is something I've wanted to say for a while.
	So I'm trying not to sort of shoehorn in my agenda to your story.
	Because not only do single moms generally not give advice to boys about dating for reasons as to, you know, it brings up too many uncomfortable questions.
	Here's what you need to look for in a partner.
	Why didn't you look for that in dad?
	Here's what you need to do to keep your partner.
	Why didn't you keep dad?
	Like it just, it leads through too many mirrors, right?
	Too many mirrors and too many obvious questions.
	Here's all the wisdom that I learned by not having a good relationship.
	It tends to lower parental authority.
	So single moms and single dads too, I'm sure, but I can, I was raised by a single mom.
	So single moms veer away from this.
	Kind of conversation.
	And it's incredibly dangerous.
	It exposes their children to an enormous amount of potential danger.
	You know, lifelong diseases and pregnancies and God knows what, right?
	In jail, possibly.
	But if you're not raised by a single mom, it's hard to know just how fragile and on the edge they are.
	Overwhelmed, overwhelmed, overwhelmed.
	You know, asking a single mom for advice is kind of like, you know, you see people blindfolded on unicycles juggling flaming brands at the circus.
	And you're like, here, hold my beer.
	I mean, they'd be like, what are you doing?
	I'm in the middle of a high wire act.
	There's no net.
	I'm juggling.
	I'm on a unicycle.
	I'm blindfolded.
	I can't hold your damn beer.
	They are stretched thin.
	Not usually thin, but stretched thin.
	And they are on the edge, and they are like one straw away from a camel cracking into.
	In general.
	Stressed.
	Stranger things, while repulsive, doesn't lie.
	They are on the edge when it comes to resources.
	And I, you know, this is not because they're innately weak people.
	I mean, I'm a co-parent with only one kid, and it's...
	Trying to think of doing it without a co-parent?
	Ooh!
	So that's pretty tough.
	You know, everything's resting on your shoulders.
	You've got no safe place to crawl into and be taken care of.
	Women aren't designed to head families.
	I mean, men aren't designed to head families either.
	It should be a partnership.
	But women sure as hell are not designed to head families.
	Too many feels, too many reactions, too many sleepless lights, too many upsets, too much volatility, too much reactionism.
	Not design.
	Not design.
	Can't be leaders in this area.
	So, and this is sort of why I'm asking this question.
	Why didn't you get advice from your mom and so on?
	Well, she puts out these feelings like, you know, is there anything I can do?
	She means no.
	Do you really, you don't really want to, do you really want to, you want to do some hockey?
	You want to do some hockey, really?
	Because, you know, we can find a way to make it happen if you really, really want to do it.
	I'm there 150%.
	If you really, really, oh no, no, that's fine.
	Oh God, stop putting the elephant of impossibilities ass on my shrunken chest.
	So, you don't get a lot of resources out of single moms because they're too busy peddling and pulling the piano of childhood up a hill.
	There's not a lot of time for play.
	There's not a lot of time for spontaneity.
	There's not a lot of time for relaxation.
	There's not a lot of time.
	I mean, I remember very clearly when I was growing up, when my mom and I would sometimes, we'd get the newspaper on Sunday.
	And, you know, sometimes we'd just, we'd sit on the couch and it would be pretty quiet.
	We'd read the newspaper.
	When I was, I don't know, maybe eight, eight or nine or whatever.
	And I'd, you know, read the funnies and read some other stuff in the newspaper.
	And I didn't understand a huge amount of it.
	But, you know, it was...
	And I remember those really clearly.
	Like, ah, it's quiet.
	It's quiet.
	And they're rare.
	A lot of it is, you know, like being stuck in a washing machine, being churned around and just being spat out when you're 18.
	It's a crazy, stressful life being a single mom.
	And...
	Very few handle it with any kind of grace.
	Because if they were those kinds of people, then they'd be snapped up in the marriage market pretty quickly.
	So that was sort of my experience and the experience of the people that I've talked to.
	There is an exception, right?
	Like if they get a good old government job where they really can't be fired, where they can, you know, have lots of sick days and lots of...
	Like if they get some giant...
	I mean, if they're on welfare, maybe one thing, but if they get this big giant subsidy of government money for LARPing as a person who actually has a job...
	Then that's maybe a different matter.
	My mom didn't get there.
	But yeah, it's pretty exhausting.
	And it's stressful too because single moms, at least prior to the entrenchment of the welfare state, it was just starting up when I was a little kid.
	Very low sexual market value because they come with kids, they come with an ex, they come with problems, they come with tensions and so on.
	So people may bungee in, have sex and then get out.
	But They know, right, the calculation of women with regards to looks and sexual market value is very finely tuned by tens of thousands of years of evolution.
	And they know, they know, they know, they know that by the time the kids are grown up and out the door, they're going to be too old.
	Too damn old.
	And that's rough.
	I remember when my mom turned 40.
	She didn't get out of bed for weeks.
	She would not get out of bed.
	I'd make her tea in the morning, go off to school.
	Come back for lunch, make her a little food, pick up the cold tea, come back after school, make her a little more food, pick up the lunch, throw it out, didn't get out of bed, didn't turn away from the wall.
	I didn't understand it too much later.
	That went on for weeks and weeks.
	It can be kind of alarming.
	So that may be one of the reasons why you didn't get a lot of advice was that just not a lot of resources.
	Right.
	Yeah, no, what you described, I definitely notice a lot of parallels, 100%.
	I always had a sense, unless once she got that stable government job and she had her degree, but especially before that, it was always just...
	The underlying stress of just being stretched thin.
	Oh yeah, you're hanging by a thread over a canyon most times.
	You know, I'd come home and there'd be notices attached to our door that we were being evicted for non-payment of rent.
	But don't worry, you'll have no trouble studying for that math test two days from now.
	That's crazy.
	It's crazy.
	I remember having to eat food that was furry.
	Moldy.
	It's a rough, rough life.
	It's a rough life.
	And it burns people out and chews them up.
	Shreds them like cheese.
	I was lucky.
	I don't think I had it.
	I feel like I didn't have it quite that bad.
	But definitely had, you know, the stress and just the sense.
	And I always had the feeling of, you know, everybody else at school has so much more.
	And, you know.
	Yeah, I mean, you got some sympathy.
	Certainly when I was a kid, if you were without a dad, it was a, you know, it was a negative for you.
	Like you were looked down on.
	Oh, like, well...
	I mean, I was never bullied for it or anything like that.
	I mean, talking to people, the reaction, the only reaction I can ever recall getting from people was, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, man.
	And maybe like the curious question or two and what happened to him is like, oh, it just didn't work out.
	But I never felt that I was But personally, you know, put down for being raised by a single mom.
	Maybe that's because it's more common these days.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, it certainly was.
	I was just at the beginning of the cohort of the single mother revolution.
	And it was more rare when I was a kid.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and I was sort of thinking about your mom's sister's husband?
	Yes.
	Around occasionally, right?
	You know, I mean, just if you're out there and you know a son of a single mom or, I don't know, a daughter of a single dad or whatever, like if you have something for the kids, like for the sons, if you have something to offer, fantastic.
	I mean...
	One of my father figures was, as I mentioned before on the show, this wonderful Iranian fellow.
	Persian!
	Sorry, Persian.
	Gotta say Persian.
	And it was fantastic.
	And it makes a huge difference.
	It doesn't have to be a lot.
	It doesn't have to be, you know, night and day.
	But, yeah, any advice, any sympathy, any empathy, any concern, any, you know, couple of hours, couple of hours a month.
	It can make just all the difference in the world.
	But the problem is, of course, you start reaching in and helping sons of single moms, you're going to start to give them values that don't make the single moms look that good, so they may block that, consciously or unconsciously, right?
	Damn.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I was waking up and talking to relatives when I was in England.
	I was sort of waking up to how bad things were in my family.
	Do you know what happened?
	We got moved to Canada.
	Gotta keep them on the move.
	Gotta keep them on the move.
	Don't let them get relationships.
	Don't let them get values outside the family that might make the family look bad.
	You know what looks great?
	Another continent.
	Yeah, geez.
	How old were you when you moved to West Coast or East Coast?
	Six.
	I was six.
	I think, again, when we moved to the East Coast, we moved in with my grandma, my mom's mom.
	And she was getting things together to get that government job.
	So, I don't know.
	I didn't really have any male...
	Role models around other than her boyfriend on the West Coast.
	So I don't think that was why she was trying to get us away there.
	But now that we're here, once in a while I definitely do like seeing my uncle-in-law, I'll call him.
	But my whole family is just so distanced.
	My mom doesn't get along with She gets along with her mom better, but she doesn't speak to her dad, really.
	I barely see him.
	He's dying.
	I'd like to see him.
	He's dying, you said.
	Yeah, he's got, you know, advanced Parkinson's now.
	And I mean, I don't know what my mom's relationship is.
	My relationship was like with him growing up.
	I've heard her side of the story, but I don't know his side of the story.
	They were divorced too, so I don't know who was at fault there.
	My mom's parents were divorced too.
	It's just a lot of dysfunction.
	I wish I had those relationships.
	Now that I'm getting a little bit older and I've started dating and I'm realizing I'm trying to find male role models to look up to through the internet.
	I follow your show.
	I follow just men that I admire, like Gavin McInnes, Mike Cernovich, all those kind of guys.
	I'm part of this Skype group of just a bunch of guys who, in similar situations, most of them raised by single moms who are just trying to Form relationships and get some guidance from older guys.
	I'm really hungry.
	For those relationships.
	And that's why I want to be, you know, I don't want to be anything like what my family's been.
	And it's generations too.
	It's like my mom, my parents were not together.
	My dad's parents didn't stay together.
	My mom's parents didn't stay together.
	I've just got this huge lineage of just a fucked up family and I don't want to do anything like it.
	And I want to have a happy Marriage and family and kids.
	But at times I feel like maybe I'm not on the track to becoming that.
	Well, not right now.
	Yeah, definitely not right now.
	Because if your girlfriend knew the truth about you, she might very well dump your ass, right?
	Yeah.
	And I mean that with sympathy.
	I don't mean that as a criticism.
	And I appreciate your emotional honesty and strength in that.
	So why can't you see your grandfather?
	Why can't you go?
	I don't know.
	My mom...
	I don't know.
	I should.
	I should take the initiative to do it.
	I haven't done it.
	The only times I've ever seen him is when my mom's initiated us to all see everybody.
	Last time I saw him was last summer.
	And...
	Yeah, I want to...
	I need to do that before he dies.
	I need to...
	You do need to do that before he dies.
	Because, you know, Parkinson's, I'm no expert, but I think Parkinson's is not like Alzheimer's.
	It's body, right?
	The mind still remains relatively sharp?
	Right, yeah.
	Right.
	So, listen, Jay, oh my God.
	Like, I just had a conversation today with a guy who's only got weeks to live, and on his bucket list was having a conversation with me before he died.
	Wow.
	You know, it could be quick.
	I mean, it could be sudden.
	And you're going to really, really kick your ass.
	Kick your own ass if you don't get it done before.
	And you just, you get the call.
	He's dead.
	Because you know what you need to get?
	I mean, talk to the guy and...
	But when people get old, they mellow out a little bit.
	And when people get old, they can look back at the decisions that they've made, the bad decisions that they've made, and they're less defensive.
	I don't know what it is, like maybe it's just, well, I can't possibly fix this, so I can be honest about it finally.
	But people become less, in my experience, they become less defensive when they get old.
	Like I had a friend of mine's mom.
	I remember her years ago now.
	She had a little garden, a little apartment.
	And she was out there gardening and she just fell into talking about, she was old, she died a few years after this, but she fell into talking about her early marriage and everything that happened.
	It's almost like the truth escapes like the soul and lives in the minds of others, you know, like the ghosts of the past leave the brain that is dying so that they can bring the next generation to life, to ward the next generation off from the disasters that have happened in the past.
	Your grandfather may be in a position, maybe he can write, maybe he can sign, maybe, whatever, I don't know what he can do.
	Maybe he can talk, maybe he can, I don't know.
	But he might be in a position where you can go and get facts from him.
	Facts.
	I vividly remember my father and I having a drive.
	No, not a drive, we were on a bus from Toronto to Montreal.
	And it's like a six-hour bus ride.
	And he told me the story of his life.
	I remember it incredibly vividly.
	I also remember just crying like you're crying.
	Just getting some facts.
	You get the facts, it releases you.
	Because you know, when you're a kid, it's all you.
	It's all you.
	It's all you.
	And then when you realize that the people in your life, they come with their own histories and their own baggage and their own mistakes and their own regrets.
	It takes a load off.
	It takes a weight off.
	It takes a weight off.
	Dysfunction repeats through silence.
	Dysfunction repeats through silence.
	Facts liberate.
	You know the old saying, the truth shall set you free.
	It's gonna piss you off first, but it's gonna set you free.
	I think there's real truth in that statement.
	If you can go to your grandfather and you can get some facts, I'm sure, I feel sure, that he will want to unburden himself And tell the truth about his life to anyone who's willing to listen, you in particular, that your grandfather is going to want to tell the truth about his life to you.
	Because the life will have meaning at the end if it helps avoid someone else making the same mistakes.
	And I'm guessing, Jay, that You don't want to go and see him because your mother hasn't, quote, given you permission.
	Like you had a desire to play hockey and your mom was like, didn't say no, but you know, you have a desire for this, you have a desire for that.
	Your mom's like, okay.
	Because when there's no resources on the parental side, what choice would children have but to conform to what the parents need?
	Don't rock the boat.
	We're taking in water.
	Don't hand the circus performer your beer.
	Have no needs of your own.
	Have no needs of your own.
	Conform to what the mom wants.
	So it's my guess that she doesn't want you to go to see your grandfather.
	Sorry?
	Yeah, no, I mean, I haven't brought this up with her.
	And frankly, I'm only realizing that this is something that I should do.
	And this is something I want to do through this conversation.
	But I know definitely...
	Were you surprised?
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Were you surprised by the feeling that came up in you when you first talked about it?
	Yeah, yeah, I was.
	And it's funny how these things are within us.
	You know, these balls of fiery emotion are in us, but until they're verbalized, it's like they almost come to life, they're there, where the hell are they?
	We talk about something, we start getting moved about it, we feel strongly, where the hell were all those feelings before?
	But this is part of what conversation is so important about.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, yeah, no.
	Agreed.
	Recently, I had a kind of similar realization, which...
	I also haven't voiced to my mom, but at some point I definitely want to go meet my father and get his side of the story and chase some facts.
	I want, like you said, facts.
	I just want facts.
	And I want to learn and I want to not make the same mistakes.
	And I hope you will get those facts.
	It's always tough to tell.
	Always tough to tell because whether people will tell you the truth or not.
	I think it has something to do with how you approach them.
	But yeah, if you know, I really think that if people got the whole facts or even big significant facts about their own family histories, that dysfunction could be like brought down by like 80% in one generation.
	So many people go to their graves locked up with these dark and ugly secrets inside them.
	And then the dark and ugly secrets burrow out like that goddamn thing in Alien through John Hurt's chest.
	It burrows out.
	The dark secrets burrow out and infect the next generation.
	The words, dragging them out into the light before you die, that's the only exorcism that counts when it comes to family secrets and family histories and mistakes that were made.
	And people want to, it's like there's this great vengeance in the world.
	We go to our grave with our darkest secrets locked in our chest and that's how they reproduce and that's how they breed.
	You know, plants need sunshine, carnivores need meat, and evil needs silence to feed on.
	That's the predator.
	Not calling your family evil, but dysfunction, let's say.
	Dysfunction needs silence.
	Yeah, no, agreed.
	I mean, when I picture the family that I want, I want everybody to actually have, like, a relationship.
	And the relationship is, like, the way I picture it is just talking to one another and being honest with people and just communicating.
	How do you feel?
	What do you think?
	Just conversation.
	And I don't have that.
	I haven't seen so much of my family in, like...
	A couple years, for example, we used to see everybody, like, maybe once a year, and now we don't.
	And it's, yeah, that's what I want.
	Yeah, for a tribal species, we're doing a shitty job of keeping communities together.
	Yeah.
	And we're being overrun by those who do.
	How far away is your grandfather?
	Can you get to him this weekend?
	Yes.
	Well, I'm...
	This weekend, sorry, I've been written off just going to a different city to see an old friend.
	Unrelated.
	But next weekend, 100%, I can make it there.
	It's totally doable.
	Do it.
	Yeah.
	Do it.
	I remember going with a female friend to go and see her grandmother in an old age home.
	Well, it wasn't really an old age home.
	It was just basically where people who didn't fit in society went.
	A lot of them were old, but some of them weren't.
	And she, her grandmother had moved beyond words.
	There was no, right, it was a mental debilitation that had occurred for her over time.
	She had no words left.
	And then, even if she had wanted to speak her secrets, the prison of history had no windows, no doors.
	There was No way to get in or out.
	It was sealed before death.
	And, you know, you don't know.
	And what a kindness it would be to your grandfather as well to go and listen.
	I don't know why people wait so long to have meaningful conversations.
	I mean, I'm lucky I have these conversations every day.
	I have them on this show.
	But why?
	Why wait so long for meaningful conversations?
	See, I think most people live very little.
	They live very...
	You feel alive in this conversation, right?
	Yeah.
	You're present.
	You're there.
	It's beautiful.
	Jay, it's beautiful.
	Now we're alive.
	Now we connect.
	We have contact.
	We have depth.
	We have meaning.
	We have knowledge.
	We have wisdom.
	We have communication.
	And it's so rare for people.
	It's so rare for people.
	It's like that, what is it, some weird animal that lives underground for 17 years and pops up, has sex for three days, and then goes back underground for 17 years.
	People live like, you're not alive.
	You're just shuffling through like zombieville until you connect and have conversations about stuff that matters.
	You're honest.
	And I don't know what people live on, but I think if you take people's lives and you compress it like an accordion down to the meaningful conversations they have, I swear to God, people exist for 90 years but only live for four hours.
	I agree.
	It's bad.
	Like you said, I have this emotion in me and this desire to see my grandfather, for example, but I'll go weeks and weeks and weeks being emotionally not present.
	It's like I'm not even living the Life of my actual emotions.
	I feel like it's total deceit, too.
	It's like, I don't know, I'm rambling, but it's...
	No, it's the distraction of the detail of the everyday, and it's also, I would guess, being surrounded by people who aren't connecting with you at this level.
	It's easy to skate on the thin ice of nothingness.
	If everyone around you is full of helium too, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, the distractions of the everyday.
	Ooh, Galaxy on Fire 3 is out.
	Actually, it is a pretty good game.
	But no, it's...
	Those kinds of distractions are what society seems to be designed for.
	Don't have any depth, because depth challenges hierarchy.
	Depth challenges being ruled.
	If you become deep and rich enough within your own experience, the idea of being ruled by others becomes so distasteful.
	It becomes so ridiculous.
	It's like putting a baby in charge of a racing car.
	It's ludicrous.
	Can we talk about your girlfriend?
	Sure.
	Right.
	Right.
	Call your dad.
	Go see your granddad.
	Yeah.
	She doesn't know a lot about you.
	Sorry, she doesn't know a lot of the stuff that you shared with me, right?
	Correct.
	Well, she knows that I'm really unhappy with the way my family turned out and she's she's a child of divorce and so we're both really unhappy with the um you know the family upbringings that we had and she knows that I care a lot about you know the family that I want to start to be better than that right and um and to be together so we talked about I
	mean we know that and we we can we can um I mean, we speak about that and we agree on that.
	And to some degree we connect on that, but at the same time, I say connect, but at the same time I feel like I'm just hiding secrets.
	Because, you know, the other things that I wrote about, you know, I want to be with...
	I want to just be a man whore.
	And...
	I don't know, I told her things I didn't mean, essentially, to get in her pants.
	I don't know, that's just something.
	Now, I need you, DJ, I need you to understand something.
	It's very, very solid, very important.
	I put this forward as a hypothesis.
	But I think it's true.
	I'll put it forward as a hypothesis.
	Okay.
	Because you want to have sex with a lot of women, those are necessarily going to be low-quality women, right?
	That makes sense to me.
	But at the same time, I feel like my skill and deception is to the point that I did this to a girl who is a quality woman.
	No, no, no.
	We're not talking about your girlfriend, right?
	We'll get to her in a sec.
	We're just talking about if you want to have a lot of sex, you got to troll and bottom feed.
	Yeah.
	Because a woman of self-esteem, intelligence, wisdom, grace, virtue...
	She's not going to bang you like a gong because you bent over and have a nice ass, right?
	Right.
	She's going to have some self-respect.
	She's going to wait.
	She's going to make sure that you're a trustworthy guy.
	She's going to, you know, be an honorable, decent, good woman about things, right?
	Yeah.
	So if you want to have sex with a lot of women, meaningless sex, you know, bumping uglies and all, Then either she's a woman who doesn't want any kind of relationship but just wants to screw, you know, like a chimpanzee, like an animal, like, you know, nothing, right?
	Junk food.
	Yeah.
	Or she's a woman who wants more but doesn't know when you're bullshitting her, in which case she's either not smart or doesn't trust her instincts or has no better role models.
	You're trolling.
	You're picking, you're sweeping up the trash of humanity when you're promiscuous, right?
	Yeah.
	And you're...
	Either preying upon lower intelligence or higher dysfunction or both.
	But the coins that you're spending are pretty fucking black, right?
	Right.
	So, here's the big question.
	Are you ready?
	I'm ready.
	Let's say that you meet a woman like your girlfriend, but more assertive with you.
	More assertive about the dysfunction she sees in your family.
	Jay, whose interests are threatened by you being with a quality, assertive, honorable, decisive woman?
	Well, if it's not my girlfriend, then it would be my girlfriend.
	No, no, no.
	Forget your girlfriend right now.
	I'm just saying that if you met a woman.
	Yeah.
	Who was decisive and honorable and moral and insightful and assertive and looked at your family landscape?
	Whose interests would be affected negatively by having someone like that poking around?
	My mom.
	You got it.
	You understand.
	The man whore serves your mother.
	He is the maternal slave.
	He is the one who keeps quality women away from an examination of your family system.
	You understand?
	Yeah.
	He's the one who says, well, mommy doesn't want to be exposed, so we're going low.
	We're going low quality, low integrity, low assertiveness, high brokenness, so that nobody switches the light on.
	And sees mommy for who she is and who she isn't.
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	It's funny.
	I never thought of it like that because...
	Quality women are your hockey game.
	Wow.
	one.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	I always thought that, I thought the guy who was able to sleep with a lot of women, he's the big man, he's the alpha, and it's respectable, he's a man, but it's the easy, well I don't know, it's the maternal slave, like you say.
	Yep.
	Which is not a man.
	Promiscuity serves the mother.
	And I think this is true for both men and for women.
	Now, don't get me wrong.
	There are dysfunctional fathers out there who don't want outsiders coming in and having a cold, hard look at their whole family system.
	But given that it's a single mom nation that we live in around the West as a whole, yeah, promiscuity serves the maternal interest because promiscuity guarantees that High-quality, perceptive, intelligent, and wise people aren't going to come shouldering their way in and switch a light on in the family dungeons.
	But my mom isn't actively pushing anything like that.
	No, come on.
	Come on.
	Don't be naive.
	Don't be naive.
	You think it's going to be on a billboard?
	If it was on a billboard, guess what?
	You'd have seen it already.
	But, well, I guess she did not give any advice, essentially.
	No, it's not just that.
	Oh, my God.
	So she's never sat down and said, here's the kind of quality woman that you want, right?
	No.
	Here are the attributes you want.
	Because if she'd modeled it, you'd already have it.
	And if she didn't model it, she doesn't possess it.
	Therefore, can she really give it to you as a standard that doesn't hurt her more than it helps you?
	Right.
	No, my question is, does she have any idea...
	Of you sleeping around?
	To some degree, yeah.
	Okay.
	Has she sat down and said, no, no, no, my boy.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	Don't do that.
	Don't do that.
	Don't use women for sex.
	Don't let them use you for sex.
	It cheapens and degrades a beautiful act.
	It cheapens and degrades your soul.
	It gives you something to be guilty about when asked by a good woman how many women you slept with.
	And it keeps quality women out of both of her orbit.
	And I learned enough from my dad to know that one should not go for the freaks and the losers and the weirdos.
	And once you try and root oneself to a quality person rather than an endless slag of tiny holes of empty headed vagina carriers.
	And let's not repeat this, right?
	Has she done anything to push back against your habits?
	And I'll tell you this, my mom met my girlfriends and 100% of the girlfriends my mother approved of never criticized my mother.
	Isn't that a wild coincidence?
	Yeah.
	What are the odds?
	Stuff doesn't happen by accident.
	It's not like there are no quality people in the world and you just got to make do.
	No, there are quality people in the world.
	And your mother should damn well be encouraging you to find them.
	But if she's okay with your lifestyle, it's because it serves her needs in some way, I believe.
	I recall once I went out to...
	Some party.
	And she thought that I was trying to...
	It was like an after-prom party.
	And I was a year older.
	But I was going to this after-prom party because it was my...
	Let's see.
	It was my friend's girlfriend's prom.
	And she thought that I was going out to like...
	Get laid, basically.
	And I think she said something, but it wasn't...
	She was like, oh, if you're doing that, don't do that.
	Like, it's not good.
	But I was like, no, no, no, it's nothing.
	And, I don't know, it wasn't much of a real conversation.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know.
	When I think about her and her relationship to my dating or, you know, my relationships with women, it's just really mostly, it's just absent, really.
	Not really.
	The two real girlfriends that I've had, I've brought home once.
	To meet her, and she sat and ate and talked with them for maybe 30 minutes, and that was it.
	Just not really there, not really active.
	I believe that dysfunctional parents scare everyone coming into the house.
	Is this person going to mess up the good thing I got going?
	Are they gonna ask uncomfortable questions?
	Are they gonna raise uncomfortable issues?
	Are they gonna cause me any trouble?
	And is it fair to say that 100% of the girlfriends that your mother has approved of have not criticized your mother?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Isn't that amazing?
	What a coincidence!
	She did, I recall, that conversation, that after prom party, she thought I was, she said, she did say something like, you can hurt girls if you do that.
	She did make a moral judgment there.
	So, I mean, to, you know, full disclosure, give her credit, that did happen, if I recall correctly.
	Mm-hmm.
	But, um...
	But yeah, I don't know.
	I still feel...
	Yeah, no.
	I've brought two girls home and they didn't have anything bad to say about my mom.
	And I'm not saying that your mom's a terrible person.
	You understand that.
	But everybody needs criticism from time to time.
	Everybody needs some feedback.
	One day, somebody may criticize me.
	We never know.
	Could happen.
	Could happen.
	I'll probably never find out about it.
	But no, we all need that, right?
	Yeah, definitely.
	I mean, imagine I... Think of me, Jay, as a hot, sexy female, blonde, whatever it is, your type, right?
	Okay.
	Less beard, more boob.
	And I, with all my, you know, intelligence, perceptiveness, and forthrightness, and bluntness, come over in your arm.
	Oh, Jay, you so handsome.
	And I come over, all Socratic-like, with my curls and my push-up and my Kleenex propping up my ass.
	And I sit down with your mom and I start asking her some real questions.
	Why?
	Because I'm not an idiot.
	I'm not a dumb blonde.
	I'm just blonde.
	And I say to her, wow, Mama Jay, tell me a little bit about Jay's upbringing.
	What was it like?
	Oh, divorced.
	Oh, never even married?
	Why?
	Oh, where's the father?
	Oh, what happened?
	Do you know why?
	Because I'm getting involved in this whole damn gene pool, this whole damn family system, right?
	Right.
	And I'm starting to ask those questions.
	Those probing, probing questions.
	How's your mom doing?
	Get out!
	Sorry, how's your mom doing?
	Sorry?
	I thought it was still her thing.
	How's your mom doing in that conversation?
	What's she experiencing?
	She's...
	The droplets of sweat are accumulating on the brow.
	She is not happy to have an intelligent, insightful, curious, forthright, blunt person who's not afraid of her asking questions, right?
	Right.
	Sussing out, as we used to say, sussing out the neighborhood.
	Figuring out what kind of family structure am I getting involved in here.
	Because it's not just about Jay and his magic penis.
	It's about the entire family structure I might spend the next 40 years around.
	Or 50 years or 80 years or whatever, right?
	Right.
	So she'd lean forward, rip off my wig and say, wait a minute, you're not a hot, sexy blonde.
	You're just some damn guy who taped down his beard and put a wig on.
	All right.
	Hey, don't criticize Jay, that's his thing.
	Live and let live, man.
	Come on, we all gotta get our freak on somehow.
	Right, so the women you've brought home pose no threat to your mom.
	No threat to the maternal unit's hold over Jay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Hell, you can't even ask questions of her.
	And you've got a much greater incentive in some ways.
	Right, so this is what I mean.
	By your manslut himboness, it's not about conquering women, you understand?
	It's about submitting to a woman.
	It's about submitting to a woman's needs for low-quality people around her.
	She likes the freaks.
	She likes the low-rent people because they don't threaten her.
	They don't ask any uncomfortable questions.
	They don't rock the boat.
	This is not masculinity.
	This is being a eunuch to the needs of mommy.
	Wow.
	You're not owning women.
	You're owned by a woman.
	It's just creating a giant repel shield around your heart so the quality people don't come storming in and blow the gig.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I've never thought of it like that.
	One thing I've noticed is being in a serious relationship now, it's way harder.
	You actually have to grow and sort out dysfunction where it exists.
	Yeah, I guess my mom wouldn't want that exposed in her.
	Your mom has some things to answer for as a parent.
	I have some things to answer for as a parent.
	I mean, this is being a parent.
	Everyone has stuff to answer for.
	Everyone's made mistakes.
	Right?
	You have stuff to answer for as a boyfriend.
	Perfectly fine.
	It's healthy.
	You understand?
	It's healthy.
	It's right.
	And the people who resist criticism Repeat everything that they should be criticized for.
	Right?
	I mean, it's natural.
	Criticism is like the bing!
	Bounce off like the pinball.
	It's supposed to push you back.
	It's supposed to make you recoil.
	It's supposed to make you change paths, change course.
	But, I mean, I've not done things in my life where I sort of go back and, well, can't fix it, can't, right?
	Too horrible, too horrifying.
	So...
	Does your girlfriend know any of this about you, even instinctively?
	Uh, yeah.
	I mean, I told her about, you know, what I did with girls before her.
	And it always, I mean, it bothered her, naturally, right?
	But, um, she...
	And, man, I... She was really bothered.
	I don't think she is anymore.
	I think she feels more secure now.
	You know, we've had...
	I mean, it's been six months, but we had some ups and downs.
	I think she feels a little bit more secure with me now.
	But originally, like, she would have major intrusive thoughts in the clinical sense regarding my past, being with girls, her fearing me, doing something.
	And...
	So I know instinctively it definitely bothers her.
	So who doesn't want you to have a good relationship?
	You do, right?
	But there's some part of you, some history, some inhabitant of your mind.
	Who is it who doesn't want you to have a really great relationship?
	In other words, whose interests are threatened by you having a really great relationship?
	My mom, but I can't help but think that my mom wants me to be happy ultimately.
	She knows I want to.
	I've told her I want to have a happy family that sticks together.
	I can't help but think that she wants that for me.
	- And look, I'm not saying she doesn't, but what evidence do you have that she wants that for you? - Well, nothing really, but I just feel like it's a natural thing.
	You want people to be happy and to have a family.
	What do you mean?
	You think...
	Let's just talk about the West.
	You think that people in the West just want everyone to be happy and have a good family?
	That's true.
	How's the family been doing if this is what everyone wants?
	That's true.
	Family has fucking fallen apart.
	Family is crumbling.
	White families, anyway.
	And black families.
	And now increasingly Hispanic families.
	Falling apart.
	Japanese families are doing okay.
	Oriental families, East Asian families doing okay.
	They're falling apart.
	Where's this?
	We want families and everyone...
	I don't see it.
	Why the hell is there such an easy divorce?
	Why is there...
	Family courts that pay women to leave their men.
	Why?
	Well, because, you know, the left wants to destroy families so that single moms become dependent on the state and can be reliably voted on for more and more government.
	But I don't...
	I'm not saying your mom's like some Democrat operative, I understand, but I don't see this big general thing where we work hard.
	You know, it's stuff that society says.
	We care about the children.
	It's all for the kids.
	What about the kids?
	Yeah, feel like dealing with the national debt?
	Oh shit, no, that's politically inexpedient.
	Fuck the kids as far as that goes.
	They can graduate, they can be born a couple of hundred thousand bucks in debt.
	We don't give a shit as long as people vote for us.
	It's all about the kids.
	We care about the kids.
	Hey, feel like reforming public schools so you don't have to drug significant portions of the boys there?
	Oh no, fuck, we don't want to do that because that would interfere with donations for the left from teachers unions.
	We can't do any of that shit.
	Sorry.
	You know, it goes on and on.
	Like, what people say?
	I don't care what they say.
	I just tell you maybe I'm cynical, but I've had enough experience now, Jay.
	When people say stuff, I just assume it's the opposite.
	I mean, in general.
	I mean, not in this community and so on, not among my friends and family.
	But when I go out into like muggle land, I'm like, I'm put on my helmet of oppositeness.
	I put on this helmet of oppositeness.
	Because I just assume that everything that people are saying is complete bullshit that's mostly just designed to disarm me and point me in the wrong direction.
	You know, like the asshole in the fight who's like, look!
	And you look and then he cold-cocks you in the side of the head because he's a douchebag.
	I just assume everyone's opinions are like, look!
	So they can cold-cock you in the side of the head.
	That's just my experience as a whole.
	And, you know, lots of exceptions, but that's my default position until proven otherwise.
	I just want you to be happy.
	Okay, you just want me to be happy.
	That's a nice sentiment, but I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry, ma'am.
	I'm going to need to see some evidence of that one.
	Yeah.
	You find me hot, do you?
	I'd like to see a bone room, please.
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	It's really only been in the past few years that I started dating and I realized what I missed out on.
	With not having a dad and my politics changed from being really left wing to now, you know, relatively really right wing.
	But I really decided that I... You got balled up, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	You got balled up.
	So you're not now serving the infinite lefty vagina planet, right?
	And you balled up a little.
	Exactly.
	I'm a recovering beta, as Sam Hyde would say, also child of a single mom.
	And so, when I voice this to my mom, and I mean, she thinks my politics are ridiculous now, you know, obviously.
	Ridiculous?
	Wait a minute.
	Is she framing things in emotional terms rather than making a rational argument based on evidence?
	Huh!
	Good thing she's breaking that stereotype.
	Yeah.
	But, I mean, I told, like, you know...
	I want to have a family.
	I haven't really sat down and spoke to her, but I told her, I want to have a family.
	And she never showed any particular enthusiasm for this idea.
	What do you mean?
	She never showed enthusiasm for you wanting to have a family?
	Yeah, she's like, okay, yeah, that's good.
	Isn't this like, sorry, Jay, but you're talking to me.
	Are you talking to me?
	You're talking to me.
	And like the passion, the intensity, the raw emotional power behind what you're talking about is impressive and manly.
	But why doesn't she care about something that's so incredibly important to you?
	I'm, well, I'm not.
	She wants you to be happy, see?
	But she just doesn't really give a shit about you being happy or how to get there or whatever, right?
	Why?
	Well, to be fair, I've emotionally distanced myself from my mom.
	I feel like with a few...
	No, no, no, no, no.
	No, no, no.
	You're the child.
	She's in charge of the relationship.
	You're the child.
	You take her cues.
	It's going to be difficult for her if you go to hockey.
	Okay, no hockey.
	No, no, no.
	Oh, I've made these choices with my mother.
	She's in charge.
	She defines everything about the relationship and that will never, ever, ever change.
	I'm a parent, man.
	I'm speaking now with some authority on the matter.
	Okay.
	But, I mean, I don't know.
	I feel like, basically, when I hit puberty, I bicker with my mom more, and I was closed off.
	I spent a lot of time in my room, just on the internet, not wanting to socialize with her.
	Why?
	And I don't mean why, like, what the hell's wrong with you, but what were the symptoms?
	What were the causes?
	What were the triggers that had you withdraw from connection with your mom?
	Uh...
	I can tell you why, if you like.
	I'm honestly pretty clueless.
	Oh, I can tell you exactly why.
	Tell me why.
	Because you couldn't resolve anything.
	Because you'd have these pointless fucking arguments.
	Back and forth, right?
	The bigotons with hemorrhoids, right?
	Could never resolve shit.
	It never went anywhere.
	It went round and round.
	Defensiveness and attack and manipulation and bullshit.
	Maybe on both sides, I don't know.
	But sure, if you can't ever resolve anything, what the fuck is the point of having a conflict?
	So you just withdraw.
	Did you ever solve anything with your mom?
	Did you ever get any standards or rules or alterations to how you interacted to the point where things got better in a reliable manner?
	Not really.
	I mean, the best...
	When I was living in her house, the best that things got were when I was...
	The best option was no contact.
	Yeah, the lesser that I could interact with her, the better we got along, right?
	Yeah.
	No, I had the same thing.
	I would go and stay in trees.
	That sounds ridiculous, but literally, I'm climbing up the top of an Enya album.
	I would have a treehouse, or I would just...
	Get out, grab my comic books, and just climb a tree and sit there for hours.
	I didn't care how cold it was.
	My friends and I would go and hang out in the woods.
	We would bake beans on a little camping saucepan.
	You just roam around like a nomad with no teepee.
	You just roam around.
	I don't want to go home.
	I can't go home.
	I don't want to go home.
	And then my mom, I come home and my mom, you're treating this place like a hotel.
	I'm like, I think a hotel would be a little fucking cleaner.
	Just offense and upset and emotions and nothing gets solved.
	Nothing gets solved.
	Yeah.
	So you just get the fuck out.
	Why?
	Why would you stay and fight when nothing ever changes?
	What the hell is the point of that?
	No thanks.
	Not engaging in this twisted, who's afraid to Virginia Woolf bullshit way.
	Not gonna do it.
	I'd rather sit in a tree.
	It's exhausting.
	And pointless and debilitating.
	And another thing.
	Oh, fuck.
	No thanks.
	Yeah.
	Again, I'm not saying my experience is your experience.
	I'm just saying that if you detached...
	See...
	If you have conflicts and you solve conflicts, which is kind of the point of having conflicts is to solve them.
	If you have conflicts and you resolve conflicts, your relationship gets stronger.
	But did you ever have a say, did you ever have a voice to the point where your mother said, okay, you know, that is a really good point.
	You have, you made that point before, but I think I really got it now.
	That's a really, really good point.
	Here's what's going to change based on what you said.
	And then it reliably changed.
	Did anything ever happen like that?
	No.
	No!
	Right?
	Yeah.
	I'm sorry.
	Is that you, mother?
	Or did the mosquito get trapped in my inner ear?
	Right?
	Yeah.
	No.
	I've lived...
	I moved out a couple of years ago for one summer.
	I lived there again and just after having the taste of just peace.
	It was extra bad that summer just being with her again.
	I realized like, oh my, I can't get along with my mom.
	I don't know, but part of me wants to, I don't know, I mean, is there, I'm still holding on to the idea that we could have a repaired relationship.
	Well, look, I don't know about any of this, right?
	I mean, that's not my wheelhouse.
	Yeah, that's true.
	But I am troubled, Jay, by the fact that you're talking about what is the greatest desire and hope in your life, which is to have a stable and happy family life.
	And she's not sitting there saying, well, Man, Jay, you want, you know, I really get, like I get that you really, really want a different family than the one you grew up in.
	Of course, that makes me sad, but let's not make this about me.
	Let's not be like a baby boomer watching Steph's PewDiePie criticism of baby boomers saying, well, not all baby boomers are like that.
	I'm not like that.
	Yeah, let's not be a baby boomer making the agony of the young about you again as a baby boomer.
	Yeah, let's not be that kind of special asshole.
	She would say, the kind of family that you didn't have, I wasn't able or didn't provide to you because of my own screwed upness, but you want a kind of family that you didn't have growing up.
	Now, I'm an educated woman, so I know that if you want to change things, we better really figure this out.
	Because if you want something, like if you came to me and said, mom, I really want to learn Japanese and I knew Japanese, I'd sit down and teach you Japanese.
	Or at least start or we'd figure out how to make it work in our schedule or figure things out or whatever.
	Let's not make your future plans for a happy family like your wish to play hockey.
	Let's actually make it happen.
	So let's sit down.
	I'm going to read some books.
	We're going to figure things out.
	We're going to get your father on the phone.
	We're going to go visit your grandfather.
	We're going to unpack all this family shit so that you have a road clear as my child, as my son, to get the kind of family you want and you deserve.
	This is going to be job one in this family.
	You know why?
	Because I care about your happiness.
	Yeah, no, she didn't do that.
	And that would be the one thing that she could do that would...
	I don't know.
	Yeah, no, she didn't do that.
	What are you feeling now?
	You feel strong about this.
	I feel like...
	That's 30 seconds of a change your whole life, right?
	Sorry?
	That's 30 seconds of a change your whole life, right?
	Exactly.
	I feel like I know that she knows that it's not good for kids to grow up without a dad, but the one thing that she could do now to maybe at some point redeem herself in some way would be to just have some sort of enthusiasm and encouragement for me or like to pursue that or Yeah,
	I don't know.
	I feel...
	I don't know.
	I just feel so lost in trying to get there.
	What do you mean?
	In trying to get where?
	Trying to get your mother's enthusiasm?
	No, just getting...
	I really want a male role model that I can look up to and be...
	And, you know, grow with and to...
	You know what I mean.
	I feel lost and I feel like she is not going to help me.
	I feel like she can't help me.
	But if she said something like that, you're right.
	It would help tremendously.
	So if she cares about your happiness, why isn't she saying that?
	It's not complicated, right?
	You know, your child wants something, you move heaven and earth to provide it.
	If it's reasonable, then sure as hell, wanting a stable family life is pretty reasonable, right?
	Yeah.
	So, why isn't she saying that?
	I guess because she doesn't want to be exposed.
	And maybe that's also why she never encouraged me to reach out to my dad or my granddad.
	Maybe you get other perspectives on her history.
	She doesn't look so good.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, probably.
	See, I don't know about you, Jay.
	I literally can't imagine having the kind of power that women have.
	I can't conceive of it.
	Fucking patriarchy, give me a break.
	I can't imagine.
	I can't imagine just Having that kind of power where people just do what I want.
	You know?
	And don't even know.
	Don't even know it.
	Yeah, it's crazy.
	Can you ask any questions about what might actually be helpful?
	No!
	Because I read something.
	I knew someone.
	And it's like, okay, you want to contribute, but how about you actually find out in a way you could contribute that I might actually consider a contribution as well?
	No!
	It's intensity.
	Anyway.
	Gets a little tiring.
	Yeah.
	Being invisible to people who claim to care.
	I mean, you know, if you still have doubts about where your mom is, and I don't know, right, just my thoughts on our conversation.
	But, you know, sit down with her.
	You know, I want a family very different than the one I grew up in.
	Why can we not make this a plan?
	My experience is that you're not really...
	Into this much.
	Why?
	Like just sit down and try and figure out.
	It's called enrolling, right?
	Now you shouldn't need to enroll your mom in your big life plans.
	That should kind of come automatically, but you know, you have to, I guess.
	Or you can try.
	But if you can't get her behind what it is that you want to do, then she's going to be in the way.
	There's no neutrality in families.
	You're either behind someone, you're in their way.
	There's no neutrality.
	And then you may just have to pursue what you want, not necessarily without her in your life, but, you know, recognizing that you're going to have to get it despite her.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	But it's your life now.
	It's your life now.
	She had her life.
	She made her choices.
	She continues to make her choices.
	She's the adult.
	She's the parent.
	She had.
	She was your age once.
	She made her choices.
	And it's your life now.
	Your life.
	Your choices.
	Don't serve anyone else.
	Don't serve anyone else.
	Don't serve your girlfriend.
	Right?
	Don't serve your mom.
	Don't serve anyone else.
	It's your life.
	Own everything that you do.
	I don't serve my family.
	I don't serve my listenership.
	I fundamentally am serving myself.
	Now I'm smart enough to know that these things are kind of all tied in together.
	But as so many people, like the listenership was like, I really got upset about this.
	Really got upset about that.
	But this idea is like, well, you've upset me.
	You were rude.
	You did this.
	You did that.
	That's bad.
	It's like, I'm not here to serve you.
	I'm not here to serve you.
	If I were to pretend that I am, that would be very unhealthy for you.
	If you thought...
	Genuinely thought I was there to serve you, that would give you a kind of sick sense of bonobo power.
	That would be pretty unhealthy for you.
	We're there for a mutual exchange, right?
	You give me views, you give me donations, I give you philosophy.
	But don't be there to serve the past.
	Don't be there to serve your mom.
	Don't be there to serve anyone but yourself.
	Now, extend and expand your circle of care so that other people's happiness that you love, that are in your life, A part of what makes your day worthwhile.
	But don't serve people.
	Don't be the slave of anyone.
	Anyone.
	You know, we pay enough damn taxes.
	We don't need to give up emotional serfdom in our personal lives.
	I gotta move on to the next caller, alright?
	Okay.
	Thank you, Stefan.
	I appreciate all this a lot.
	Keep us posted.
	Okay.
	Don't dump things on your girlfriend until you've sorted them more out yourself.
	Yeah.
	Okay?
	Yeah.
	It's okay to have a few cards up your sleeve while you're working this stuff out.
	Okay.
	But, you know, work to be honest with her over time.
	All right?
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Keep us posted about how things go?
	I absolutely will.
	I really appreciate this, Stefan.
	Thank you.
	Thanks, Jay.
	Thanks very much for the call.
	Thank you.
	Alright, well up next we have Tim.
	Tim wrote in and said, For myself, I think that both MGTOW, Men Going Their Own Way, and MRM slash MRA, Men's Rights Movement slash Men's Rights Activists, while having identified that there is a problem in society for men in general, they are describing the problem very differently, especially the causes.
	MGTOW attribute the causes to the problem.
	To gynocentrism, female nature, and hypergamy.
	MRM slash MRA, on the other hand, attribute the causes to feminism, cultural Marxism, socialism slash communism.
	What are your thoughts on the current state of MRM slash MRA slash MGTOW and feminism?
	What are the key differences distinguishing MRA and MGTOW? Lastly, hypothetically, if you were to make a choice between the two, MRM and MGTOW, as the moral guiding principles and ideologies, which one do you think is right?
	Or perhaps will get us closer to solving the problem?
	That is from Tim.
	Hey Tim, how are you doing tonight?
	Hello Stefan, I'm good.
	How are you doing?
	I'm well, thanks.
	I have to, you know, sort of push back a little bit at the beginning of this, as I was sort of reading this earlier.
	I have a challenge with all of these categories.
	Because, and just as a sort of public figure, a public thinker, everyone's kind of, do you consider yourself an X? Do you consider yourself a Y? How about a giant alphabet soup of everything that I could conceivably put together and throw in a bag like a Scrabble game?
	And I can't, like I can't, for myself, I can't be put into these categories because categories are the opposite of philosophy, right?
	Philosophy looks at propositions, looks for the internal consistency of the hypothesis, and looks for the empirical evidence if the hypothesis passes the test of internal consistency.
	So, if you want to say to me, well...
	Differences between MRA and MGTOW and so on.
	I mean, I could come up with some stuff that would have some validity, but it would also have lots of exceptions.
	And for the people where the validity hits, you know, oh, that seems true to me.
	Okay, well, it would be because it's reinforcing their particular approach or biases, which might be my bias as well.
	And for the people who didn't feel true, they just push back against it and feel that I was overgeneralizing and blah, blah, blah.
	So I don't want to sort of play the...
	The acronym warfare game of, you know, MRM, MGTOW and so on, or even feminism for that matter.
	So, and it's just because I have to push back, and I know you're not trying to put me in these categories, but I kind of have to push back against this categorization stuff, because I'm concerned that categories in people's minds turns into like a team.
	And whenever you have a team, you have a diminishment of criticism.
	Whoever's our in-group, we tend to criticize less, which is why the Milo video was challenging for me.
	I'm not on Milo's team or anything, but...
	I admire some of the things that he's done.
	So the criticism was a challenge.
	So, yeah, if you've got an acronym, so I'm MGTOW, I'm MRA, or even feminist, what it means is that the people who then you perceive to be on your team, you can be less critical of and you can be more critical of the people who are, quote, opposed to your team and so on.
	And all of that undermines the basic stuff that I'm trying to work on here, which is reason...
	And evidence.
	And so, yeah, people say to me, well, are you this and are you that?
	No, I'm a philosopher.
	I mean, you know, it's like saying to a scientist, are you in this category?
	Are you in that category?
	It's like, no, I'm just following the scientific method, wherever it goes.
	There are certain things which I'll accept because the arguments are good, but it's the arguments, not the acronym, that matters.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yes, and, well, what I'm trying to do here is, obviously, I have gone through a lot of your video concerning feminism, and, you know, you show all the statistics and such like that, and, you know, in a way, McTowell Macto.
	Men going their own way.
	It's not in itself any cultural movement.
	It's just, you know, there's no leader or anything like that as I just understand it.
	So, you know, categorize, you know, a group of people calling themselves Macto when they have, you know, very different...
	They might do something similar in a way, but most of themselves are very different on an individual level.
	So...
	But however, when you...
	You know, I've seen...
	A few of your videos concerning feminism and how you address that is destroying lives and families.
	I come from a family that is also, you know, my mother's divorced as well.
	And, you know, I see that it's, you know, these stats are definitely concerning.
	Hang on.
	I'm sorry, Tim.
	Sorry to interrupt you, but...
	Feminism can't do shit.
	Feminism is just a bunch of ideas.
	Feminism cannot destroy lives.
	Feminism cannot destroy families.
	Feminism cannot corrupt your education.
	Feminism can't do, can't bring false rape charges.
	Feminism can't do any of that stuff.
	That is all the state.
	Yes.
	All the state.
	So MRA, MRA, men's rights, is specifically focused on reforming the state.
	MGTOW is saying, well, we can't reform the state, so let's just get the hell out of Dodge.
	But it's all around the state.
	The state is shitty enough when it's just a reactive state, when it just sits there passively and waits for someone to violate persons or property or break a contract.
	And then it leaps into action and tries to resolve it.
	The night watchman state, the property rights and non-aggression principle state.
	Bad enough.
	Okay.
	But the state, having been moved to a big, giant, blood-soaked hand, four-dimensional chess player of social manipulation, interfering, creating, taxing, subsidizing, screwing around with everything it can get its hands on, that's the damn problem.
	It's not each individual manifestation of state power in the proactive social engineering state.
	The social engineering state, where it's trying to not create equality before the law, but try to create equality of outcome.
	Where it's not saying, well, keep your contracts.
	It's trying to say, well, we're going to buy off this voter with these benefits, and these voters with these benefits, and if women want this, we'll give them this, and if men are more passive, we'll tax them to give to the women.
	When you get this proactive, massive interference social manipulation state, Then it is going to shred and tear apart society as a whole.
	And the bleeding and the wounds and the emasculation and the, you know, all of the stuff that is going on for men and for some women and so on.
	It's not feminism.
	It's not Marxism.
	It's not socialism.
	It's not political correctness.
	None of these things.
	It is enforced through the power of the media to make and break people and it is enforced through the power of the state.
	To throw your ass in jail.
	And that's the essence that I like to work at.
	Now, I have talked about some of these things, but I've done it.
	I've been there.
	And sort of for me, it's back to basics time.
	And the back to basics is once you let the state begin to pick winners and losers, once you let the state become a proactive social agency to steal and spend and bribe and exploit and so on, then you're going to get all of these messes going on.
	Now, you can't solve these messes.
	Without shrinking the size and power of the state.
	So that to me is, you know, if we want to solve these problems, we have to push back on the size and power of the state.
	Or, you know, failing to do that, we at least have to prepare people for when the state runs out to know what the problem was so they can rebuild it in a better way.
	Well, I completely agree with the fact that the state has been extremely, well, it's getting bigger and bigger throughout the history, especially in the 1920s on forward, after the initial time when the state officially started interfering with the economy.
	And that's what causes the Great Depression.
	And From your initial position, you're saying that the state is, and in fact I agree, is the cause for all these things, and feminism, cultural, Marxism, it's just a sort of manifestation out of that for state control and power.
	However, You know, like, say, let's look at one specific point in time, say, you know, in 1920, when the first wave feminists secure a woman the right to vote.
	Do you think that was, you know, this might sound like conspiracy, but do you think that was the state intended to happen so that they can actually push that ideology out of that?
	Or it's just the state simply seeing opportunity and sees that and continuing with that?
	Well, yeah, I mean, I have no problem with women voting as a whole.
	I mean, I'm critical of it.
	But to me, We've got a call coming up about democracy as a whole.
	Democracy, you know, it's the old saying, it's the worst system except for all the others.
	Democracy in the absence of property restrictions for voting simply turns into the kind of ridiculous mess that is going on throughout the West at the moment.
	Because when poor people get to vote, they vote to take away the property of the rich or the middle class and everyone ends up poor.
	Well, actually, they vote to take away the property of the middle class because the rich can usually find expensive consultants and lawyers and accountants to hide their money and pay.
	Well, actually, I shouldn't say that because the rich do pay quite a fair amount of taxes.
	I'm thinking of sort of the big corporations can put their money overseas.
	So, but yeah, I think property restrictions was how the Republic in America was founded and how democracy worked relatively well until universal suffrage was put into place.
	And that at least had some Restrictions on it because it was men and men have the hope, a lot of them have the hope of becoming wealthy so they don't want huge taxes on the rich.
	But yeah, when the women voted in general, you get the welfare state, you get all the mess that's going on right now.
	But female suffrage came in at a state level because men wanted to have sex.
	I think it was Wisconsin was one of the earlier states to allow women's suffrage.
	And that's because there weren't very many women in the state and there were a lot of thirsty men out there.
	Wisconsin was basically like, I don't know, the comments section of every Lauren Southern video I've ever seen.
	Notice me!
	And so they offered women the vote so that women would move there so that these guys could have someone to settle down with and get married to and have sex with.
	So I don't know if it's just the state or just in general what men want to do in terms of deference to women.
	So it's hard to say.
	Yeah, that's very interesting.
	Well, I think I remember you brought this example up in one of your videos prior.
	But yes, I mean, I think everybody just, you know, as a creature, you know, human, as men and women, I guess we all do things that is biologically imperative to us.
	I guess that's the most fundamental level.
	And I guess that's what happens when a woman gets the right to vote.
	I'm not saying I'm against that, but the state clearly understood what has...
	What they need to do to appeal to, you know, certainly 50% increases in the vote count to secure those.
	And, you know, as I think it's been a general consensus that, you know, females tend to look for more stability and such.
	And that's why they...
	That's what gives rise to the welfare state.
	And it's been a spiral downward since.
	And, you know, as...
	I'm 24 years old.
	I immigrated to Canada when I was 15.
	And, you know, I put myself through engineering school.
	I'm doing my master's degree on a work scholarship.
	So...
	Everything's looking good, but from a perspective as a guy, as somebody who's going to be coming out, who's going to be done school in a year or a year and a half, and start making something of myself as a man,
	if you do a cost-benefit analysis on being married here, I just don't see it worth any risk.
	I just don't see it.
	The risk is way too high for me to even try to play this game.
	And that's why the McTow stuff that I've been reading and looking at it appeals to me way more than the MRA stuff.
	But on a, you know, but if you extrapolate that, the McTow movement in itself is, I think, in itself is a self-destructing ideology.
	Because you, by saying you quit it with the other sex, then, you know...
	In your lifetime, that might be a good thing for you to, you know, just keep improving yourself and be better in yourself, better with yourself, and, you know, everything is all about you.
	And I guess I agree with that, but if you completely separate yourself from, you know, the other half of society, you know, humanity will obviously fail eventually.
	Well, listen, I know I understand all of that, right?
	So, and I've talked about that before.
	But, I mean, Canada is in trouble.
	Yeah.
	Canada is in fundamental trouble because we have this...
	Well, I mean, we have a...
	Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	I'll let you talk, all right?
	Yeah.
	I'll let you talk.
	Yep.
	We have this snowboard instructor pseudo leader.
	Yes.
	And social trust, confidence in government in Canada is collapsing.
	This should be news everywhere, but it's suppressed because he's on the left.
	You know, there was a recent poll came out just this month, just February 2017.
	Only 43% of Canadians say they trust their government.
	That's down from 53% just a year ago.
	It's dropped 10%, 10% trust in government in one year.
	That's astonishing.
	I'm not surprised.
	That is astonishing.
	80% of Canadians feel the country's elites are out of touch.
	This is the first time in 17 years that Canada has joined the ranks of distruster countries in which more than half of citizens say they distrust their civic institutions.
	This is from the CBC. And this is going to provoke, you know, as...
	As Ezra Levant at the Rebel Media, which you should check out.
	They just passed us in subscribers.
	Good job, guys.
	Good job.
	And, yeah, he's got this book about the backlash, right, that could occur from this stuff.
	Sure, inviting massive amounts of multiculturalism in, fragmenting the country, fragmenting the communities, and...
	Yeah, Canadians, you know, America's, you know, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.
	Canada founded on peace, order, and good government.
	And it is an incredible collapse in one year.
	One year.
	Down 10% trust in government.
	That is...
	Like a country-threatening movement.
	A cohesiveness-threatening movement.
	And this should be...
	I mean, everybody should be completely freaking out about this in Canada.
	But...
	But they don't.
	And...
	I mean, can you imagine if this was a right-wing prime minister and trust had collapsed in this astonishingly much?
	From 53% down to 43% in one year?
	I can't see somebody messed up that badly.
	But I guess there is somebody who would do it, and that would be our beloved Prime Minister.
	Yeah, now they're talking about potential blasphemy laws?
	Are you kidding me?
	I mean, good God!
	Good God!
	I mean, and people just wandering across the border out from the States, here you go, we're the police, we'll carry your bags!
	Yeah, well...
	Complete collapse in the rule of law, complete collapse in the cohesiveness of a country.
	Yes.
	Oh yeah, I totally agree.
	I mean, when you were talking with Dr.
	Patterson about, you know, the freedom of...
	Oh, Peterson, yeah.
	Yeah, you know, when he's talking about the Bill T-16, it's completely madness to me when I see that, how...
	They just, yeah, the motion just passed.
	The motion just...
	I looked through the Ontario Human Rights Code, like he suggested, and it's basically exactly what he said.
	It's thought police, well, it's going beyond thought police now.
	It's basically gender expression has become fashion, and I'm just sitting there laughing because I'm like, what's going on?
	I just can't believe it.
	This is what we have come to work through, especially in Canada, right beside the US. I think we just need to keep focusing on the dangers of the proactive state and how it leads to social fragmentation.
	This complete collapse in trust of the Liberal government is something absolutely astonishing.
	And it is, of course, my hope that conservative politicians will find a way to right this astonishing Soros-funded leadership that's going on at the moment.
	So, well, I appreciate the call.
	Thank you very much.
	And let us move on to the next caller.
	I'm glad to have had a chance to chat about it.
	Thank you very much, Stephen.
	Alright, up next we have Sarah.
	Sarah wrote in and said, Look at the marches in the last couple of days.
	They are carrying their own origin country's flags.
	If immigrants escape the hardships in their homeland, why do they, when they are in the United States, crave to be back in their homeland and do not adopt the United States spirit of self-reliance and ingenuity?
	That is from Sarah.
	How you doing?
	Yes, I appreciate you having me on this show.
	I'm very upset, actually.
	About what's going on in the States.
	Tell me all about it.
	Yeah, I'm talking about the whole thing.
	I'm talking about feminists.
	I'm talking about all this reverse racism against whites.
	I have nothing, you know, I don't see race.
	I see, like Martin Luther King used to say, character.
	And what you really bring to the table?
	What have you brought to the table?
	And you've got to, sorry to interrupt, I've got to plug this guy every chance I can.
	The Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson is the man to go to for this stuff.
	I did an interview with him, but, you know, just scratched the surface.
	Just check out Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson on YouTube.
	He's got some great stuff on this.
	Sorry, Sarah, go ahead.
	Okay.
	So I get really upset.
	Okay.
	I don't know why I get so upset.
	Because I came to this day, I'm actually in my home country, Honduras at this point.
	And I'm sort of like in a mission to find out what I really have to do.
	Because once you get this upset, you have to do something.
	I cannot sleep.
	I cannot stop thinking about it.
	There's something about it that I cannot stop thinking about it.
	And I really get upset about all this reverse racism.
	I'm an immigrant.
	First, you can tell my accent.
	And I'm a little nervous, of course.
	No, you're doing great.
	Okay.
	But I came to the States.
	I went to the States when I was a young teenager.
	Actually, I was an illegal immigrant.
	I'm going to have to declare that because that's from the point of view that I'm talking about.
	Even though I was under illegal immigrants, I, you know, I fixed my status.
	My mom, you know, she was being sponsored at that time, actually.
	It was a problem in the house that, you know, I was going to run away, actually, because I had so much...
	But you were brought over as a child, right?
	Not a child, actually.
	Teenager.
	Actually, I was in finishing high school.
	So...
	But you weren't a legal adult when you came over, right?
	No, I was a teenager, probably 14, 15.
	Now, just to say, I'm sorry to interrupt you, Sarah, but I just genuinely have curiosity about this.
	So I'll give you all the time in the world for the ransom, because it's a great set of questions.
	Yes.
	But what is the thinking?
	Like when your parents said, okay, well, we're not legal, we're not going over legally, we're just going to go over...
	And put you in school?
	Is that right?
	Did they go to a sanctuary city?
	No.
	Actually, there was no sanctuary.
	This is the thing that I'm looking at.
	You have to look back and it's not the same.
	You just sound young.
	That's a compliment.
	I'm young.
	I'm 15.
	Well, you know, I don't know why.
	Okay, so your parents were like, okay, we're going to leave the homeland.
	We're going to go to America.
	We're not legal.
	Yes.
	And how is that justified?
	What is the thinking behind that?
	Well, this is the thing here.
	You have to, for some reason, for someone to understand that, you have to understand some conditions of this country.
	And I'm not, actually, if I look back and say, I feel really guilty, actually, that that's how it happened.
	You understand?
	Because, you know, I have, what do you call it, introspection about how things are supposed to go and which way, you know, I would like it if that would happen in this country where I was born.
	You know, because you have to be able to put yourself in somebody else's position to understand.
	I mean, what do you think?
	It was Honduras you were saying, right?
	Yes.
	So what do you think the Honduran government would do if there were like thousands and thousands of boatloads of Africans coming to Honduras?
	What would they do?
	That's actually what I tell people when I fight them.
	They will not let them in because actually I have people who are here from Guatemala because they marry somebody in Honduras and they have to go every three months.
	They have to travel back there and check.
	They have to be coming back every three months.
	And the same token, I have a friend who's married to somebody in Nicaragua, and they have to come back here every three months.
	It's very controlled.
	You understand?
	I think a lot of the illegal immigration, which is not really the phrase, illegal alien, whatever you call it, but a lot of the criminality that's going on with regards to U.S., the occupation of the United States, it's driving a lot of anti-white racism.
	Because if you're going to go and exploit people, and of course, you know, if people come over and they put their kids in school and they're using the healthcare system and they're taking welfare, not that everyone is, but it's a significant proportion of Well, you kind of have to be entitled.
	In other words, you have to say, well, white people owe us something.
	You know, there was colonization.
	They exploited our ancestors.
	Like, you've got to come up with something negative, because otherwise you're just taking from good, decent, hardworking people, and aren't you going to feel kind of bad at that?
	Well, they do.
	They do, actually.
	That's what they say, actually.
	I know!
	That's what they say, because actually, you know, Christopher Columbus came here, and actually, that's actually what happened.
	But what I tell them is that the differences that that United States was actually created with intention to be this country that it is, In here, everything was just sort of thrown into, it fell into place.
	And what happens with the conquistadores, they always have these people who always, you know, sell out.
	And those are the people, just like communism, they get their good stuff.
	And everybody else is just eating crap.
	So basically, that's...
	Yeah, I mean, everybody knows what was going on in South and Central America before the Spaniards came.
	Yes.
	So it was a hellhole.
	Yeah, but that's actually what's going on, because that's what happens.
	Like all this kind of people are still in power.
	You know, there's just like the power is passed down to this kind of people that, you know, if you are attached to the power structure and then you sort of run for office, then then you get to play with your little friends, just like what's going on right now in the States.
	This is why I almost felt that, wait a minute, is this the States or am I back in Honduras?
	Because that's actually what's going on.
	Fascism, you know, like corporatism.
	You mean prior to Trump?
	I mean, I think Trump's really working to fight that stuff, right?
	I was very afraid if Hillary won.
	Because actually I said, where am I? Am I back in Honduras?
	I'm here!
	And it's the same.
	So if people want to come to America, because it's richer, right?
	And I know that there's a lot of people in the third world, and I'm not saying Honduras is in the third world, but there's a lot of people in poorer countries, let's say.
	And they say, well, America is only wealthy.
	White countries are only wealthy because they stole from the third world countries, right?
	They stole from the brown people.
	They stole everything for colonization and conquistadors and invasion and smallpox and whatever.
	whatever it is, right?
	All the stuff that is talked about.
	And first of all, they weren't that rich.
	These countries were that rich when the Europeans came over.
	Secondly, of course, throughout South and Central America, there were endless wars back and forth.
	People killing each other.
	There was slavery.
	There was, you know, in some places, just horrendous stuff that went on with the Aztecs and the Incas.
	Child sacrifice and games played with people's heads.
	You know, just, I mean, it was pretty savage.
	It was pretty primitive in a lot of ways.
	So it wasn't like you all had...
	Big, giant factories, you know, that were producing amazing goods that were taken over by the backwards Europeans or something like that.
	And my basic point, though, is that, okay, if America is richer, and it's richer because there's freedoms, then why not try to recreate those freedoms in Honduras, in Nicaragua, in Brazil?
	Like, why not just do that?
	Why not have all of that?
	Well, that's what actually my point is.
	Because I say, wait a minute.
	It's like, if you like that system so much because you could just look at it, Don't just go there and leech out.
	Bring it back here and recreate it.
	And, you know, this is what I'm looking at.
	And I'm telling you, because when I saw this protest with the flags, I said, really?
	You have the flags of your own countries?
	And I'm not a racist.
	I'm not a racist against my own people.
	I would just wish they would just lift their chin up and really look at what's really going on.
	You know, I'm not, because I even argue with people here.
	When I came, I've been here for, you know, three months.
	And even people here talk about the United States as if it was their country.
	They're protesting Trump.
	They're burning up their effigy of Trump.
	And I say, wait a minute, this is not your country.
	That's not your country.
	Do you need to go and find your own government here?
	Okay, because I actually feel more American than here.
	I have a choice.
	I said, this country gave me birth.
	But America gave me, you know, to eat.
	So it's like an adopted mother, you know?
	You know, like an adopted mother.
	Now, how do you find it, debating or arguing with people in Honduras?
	They're really upset because the only thing they look at is just, oh my God, I'm not going to have my dollars anymore.
	Right?
	Your dollar?
	Their dollars?
	What do you mean?
	You know, the remittances.
	The remittances, right?
	The money that's sent from the U.S. back to Honduras.
	Okay.
	So I really, I said, wait a minute.
	Do you know what really is going on in that country?
	Because I really understood.
	I basically was thinking like everybody else.
	Because I understand them so much because I used to be there.
	You understand?
	I never felt entitled in the United States because I knew I had to work.
	I never did, but I know now people feel entitled, but it has to do a lot with the left, because they're enablers, you know, they're enablers.
	Oh yeah, the left stoke resentment against white people so that people feel better about taking from the taxpayers, right?
	Yes.
	So what happened is that I'm very upset with the left, because I'm like, Why are you doing this to people?
	I want to give you an example because I actually serve a lot.
	I went through a horrible divorce and then my children, you know, I was sort of in pain and I let my children just run sort of wild for a little bit because I used to say, oh, you know, they went through a lot of stuff so I'm just going to let that pass.
	How did that work out?
	Not good.
	Not good, right?
	Not good, because I saw them sort of almost trying to manage me.
	It's like, you want to be my father now, my dad, or my mom, both of them.
	And I said, wait a minute, this is not going well.
	So that's what's happening with the left.
	The more you give people like a pass, the more they're trying to, you know, overcome you.
	And so I stopped and I said, wait a minute.
	I said, I cannot do that.
	I said, and I started, you know, sort of getting the reins back.
	And it took me a while, but I got them back.
	I got my reins back and I got my kids in line.
	And I said, I'm not going to give you a free pass.
	I know you were in pain.
	I said to myself, I know they're in pain, but I have to make a balancing act.
	Of, you know, of discipline them and still have compassion for the pain.
	So I did pull it out.
	I did pull it.
	So I understand why it's so bad to give people a free pass, just give freebie for nothing, because then you get like a big monster and you just want to, you know, sort of, you want to overcome the person who's giving you.
	Because I experienced that.
	And I said, oh my God, I can see it when this is going on, when these marches.
	And, you know, it's like right now I was reading, even in the newspaper here, I'm reading it and they're like instructing people as to what to do if the migra, they call it the migra here, you know, the immigration comes and knocks on the door and, you know, they're sort of giving advice because it's some kind of entitlement, you know, and I don't like that because, you To tell you the truth, every country is the way it is, I call it, because that's the way people are.
	Because they sort of like very, you know, nonchalant about things.
	And so when they come to the States, of course they work the same way.
	And it's, you know, because, you know, you have a higher salary, even though you're doing the same thing, you make a better life.
	You understand?
	So what happened is that when people go there, they don't assimilate.
	They always have a foot here.
	Like I say, they're always craving to go back to the country.
	So they'll never become Americans.
	And so what's happening now, what I'm seeing is that with all this multiculturalism, you know, from the left and the universities, that's like making a big monster, creating a big, huge monster, because these people are already, I call it...
	It's just like a kid who's just running around and doing whatever they want in here because the government and, you know, the culture is sort of like a, there's no culture basically.
	You know, people just do whatever, whatever they can to survive.
	So it's just like, you know, and so when they go back in the States, they just want to do the same thing because for some reason there's no, there's no, you know, law enforcement or the police.
	Do you understand what I'm saying?
	I don't know if I'm explaining myself, Estefan.
	No, no, it makes sense.
	I mean, the country is fragmented because there are areas where the laws of the country don't exist.
	Yes.
	The rules of the country, and not all the laws, like the, obviously, sanctuary cities and so on, which are, um, not sanctuary is the wrong word.
	Sanctuary is like a, where you go, uh, Hide in a church because you're being hunted by bad people.
	That's sanctuary.
	This is just illegal.
	But it's the social rules.
	It's the expectations and so on.
	You know, like the word racist, right?
	I mean, racist, the word racist is only ever applied to white people.
	And even if it's applied to white people, it's almost always applied incorrectly.
	You know, like a country is not a race.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	I mean, there's lots of, you know, African-American, there are tons of white people in South Africa.
	Unfortunately, hundreds of thousands of them are sitting in squatter camps in South Africa because they've been kicked out of their jobs by affirmative action from the black government and they've got no place to go, so hundreds of...
	African-American?
	Africa is not a black country.
	There are white people there.
	There are Asians there.
	There are Hispanics there.
	Lots of different people there.
	A country, a continent is not a race.
	A belief system is not a race.
	You cannot be racist against Islam.
	It's a belief system.
	Cat Stevens is a Muslim.
	Anyway.
	But only white people can be racist, and all other groups get a free pass on racism, even though racism within and between Hispanics can be extremely strong and actually quite vicious.
	Racism between blacks and Hispanics can be very vicious and very strong, but only white people are subject to the criticism of racism, which is...
	It's hypocritical and terrible and doesn't allow us to actually solve problems of racism wherever they occur, in whatever community they occur.
	So yeah, we have all these different rules for all these different groups, and yet people still persist on calling it a country.
	Yeah, and the thing is that I am so surprised because I can see both sides, right?
	And the thing is that I get upset also.
	Imagine all this upset that I am.
	I get upset of people in the country, let's say conservatives and patriots.
	Very hardly did they stand up.
	And I was like, why don't you stand up?
	This is your home.
	This is your home.
	Because they're afraid of the media.
	Listen, I mean, look, Sarah, you have your own challenges in life.
	But the challenge you don't have, if I can be so bold, and maybe this has happened to you, Sarah, but this is what people need to understand about being white.
	There's a few pluses, don't get me wrong, but exposure to the sun is not one of them.
	But if you're not white, you don't know what it's like to live in fear of being called a racist.
	Like, you don't fear that, do you?
	No.
	Actually, they call me racist here, but because I'm against my own people, but I understand I'm not a white person.
	You don't live in fear of your life being destroyed by being called a racist, right?
	Right?
	And now, I mean, just think of the white politicians and so on.
	I mean, if there's a racist label that they can make stick in America, in public life, you're done.
	You're done.
	You say, well, why don't the people stand up?
	Why doesn't the right stand up?
	They're terrified of being called racist.
	Like if you say, well, you know, we've got to, I don't know, get Latinos.
	And Latino is not even a race.
	You could say Mestizo or whatever.
	But if you can be, if you're a white person and you're perceived to be critical or hostile towards a particular group that could be defined as non-white, you're a racist and you're done.
	And it's been really well set up that way.
	So the way it works is that America is portrayed as a white country.
	And if you want to enforce immigration rules against people from Latin America, from Honduras and Guatemala and Mexico and so on, then you're racist.
	It's a beautiful setup from the left.
	And so enforcing immigration Enforcing immigration laws is considered racist, and politicians don't want to take that on.
	And that's how a country can be taken down.
	I mean, the most powerful military force in the world can be taken down by two syllables.
	Racist.
	Yeah, so I get it.
	I get really...
	I actually would like, like, come on!
	But I feel like you said, I don't understand what that is.
	But in the end, because...
	I'm not proselytizing, I have nothing to do with race, but usually you have to give to the Caesar what belongs to the Caesar.
	Europeans are the ones who have built civilization.
	I mean, I remember on my Facebook wall, there was this guy who was telling me, you know, they're always talking about, oh, the Americans stole the land from the Indians.
	And I say, wait a minute, would you have come here to the land, because he was Muslim, would you have come here to the land that Muslims hate and that I love, I said.
	And if the settlers wouldn't come here, do you think that Native Americans would have built this place and you would have just loved to come here and people are fighting to come here?
	Go to Africa.
	The natives are still there.
	What have they done?
	Right?
	I'm not talking about racism.
	I'm just looking at facts.
	Well, you remember all of the celebrities on the left who said that they were going to move to Canada if Trump won?
	Yes.
	Nobody.
	Why North?
	Why would they want to move to a whiter country?
	Why not?
	I'm going to move to Honduras.
	If Trump wins, it's like, why?
	Why do you have to come to Canada, which is really white?
	Why don't you want to go to where the brown people are?
	You know what I mean?
	Like, it's crazy.
	So I said, just give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.
	And this is why I say we stand up.
	This is what you built.
	Like, if I built a house and somebody came here, I said, you get the hell out of it.
	And I understand what you're talking about, about, you know, the stigmatism of being, you know, called racist.
	But then I think, in my view, sort of like, I will let you call me whatever you want, but I still have to stand up for, you know, for I have to stand up.
	Call me whatever the hell you want.
	I don't know.
	I don't know about the history.
	Yeah.
	I don't know that a Muslim, knowing the history of Islam to some degree that I do, I don't know that a Muslim can necessarily say that taking over other countries is really a bad, is such a terrible thing.
	You know, I mean, it's, you know, given how Islam expanded early on in its history, it's a tricky position to take.
	Let's just put it that way.
	Okay, let me ask you something, Sarah.
	Let me ask you something.
	I'm sorry, if you want to add something else.
	Oh, no, because he was talking about the refugees.
	You know, let them all in.
	You know, I'm talking about, I'm looking at all this stuff.
	When I wrote you an email, I was like, oh, my God, there's a whole thing that I'm looking at.
	And, you know, as an immigrant, I'm looking at.
	And I said, you know, you're...
	You have the house.
	I'm a guest in your house.
	And I thank you for letting me in your house.
	And I can just prosper in your house.
	Why would I want to destroy the house that you built and I have nothing to offer?
	I don't bring anything to the table.
	I can help you build a house, but I don't have my ideas to create more, you know, like...
	All this advancement that we have.
	I don't.
	And I have to put it straight up.
	It's true.
	When I remember in Univision, you know, Jorge Ramos channel, they used to say, oh, I think in 10 years, Latinos are going to be the majority here.
	I said, hell no, I don't want Latinos.
	What are they going to bring?
	All this corruption back over there?
	No, I don't.
	Sarah, I can't believe you're such a racist.
	No, just kidding.
	And you know what?
	I tell you something, Stefan.
	When somebody calls me that, I say, I don't care what you call me.
	This is the truth.
	Because I tell them.
	Because that's how I feel.
	My father, I remember my father.
	I don't know if I got this from my father.
	My father, he grew up in the streets here.
	In here.
	His parents died of a young age.
	And I think he went and tried...
	He was a follower of Castro.
	I think he probably did something.
	I'm not sure.
	But he doesn't tell me the story.
	But then he just detested Castro.
	He hated him.
	And then he moved over to capitalism.
	And then what he told me was, neither system by pure itself, the system by itself is not good.
	It's good that they hold opposition to each other because each other keeps checks and balances.
	But, you know, I said, wait a minute.
	That was very smart.
	And so I remember when we went over there, imagine how people think of America.
	My father, he used to say, I want you to send me a car, but I want you to send me a car that says made in the USA, made in America.
	I don't want you to send me a Japanese car.
	I don't want you to send me, I don't want it to say made in Japan.
	I want it to say made in the USA. And we couldn't find one.
	At that time in the 80s.
	And then we just send them, you know, an Estudo.
	And I said, well, it's not made in the USA, babe, but it's assembled in the USA. Well, let me ask you this.
	I don't know if you've listened to this show much before, but do you know what the average IQ is in Honduras?
	Average level of intelligence.
	Yeah.
	I really don't.
	But I don't think it's that...
	Maybe when I was in school, I wasn't that good of a student.
	And I went to the States.
	You know, I sort of applied myself.
	I had my degree.
	I went for the master a little bit.
	My English is a little choppy because I haven't been around gringos too much.
	So you catch up.
	You catch back up.
	Listen, let's just put it this way.
	If we switch to Spanish, we're having a terrible conversation.
	So I appreciate your fluency enormously.
	I admire everyone who learns another language because I know 17 different computer languages, but I can't speak another human language to save my life.
	All concentrated on the English.
	Yeah, so I forgot what I was.
	I forgot what I was.
	So yeah, average IQ. Now, you're obviously not part of the average.
	You're, you know, I mean, delightful to chat with and all that, which is the important thing to remember.
	You can't judge any individual Honduran by the average, but the average nonetheless is important when you're looking at the big picture.
	So the average IQ in European countries among whites is 100.
	The average IQ in East Asian countries is about 106.
	The average IQ for Ashkenazi Jews is about 112, 115, 120 plus for language skills.
	In sub-Saharan Africa, it's about 70.
	And in Honduras, it's 81.
	I was going to say 80.
	You were going to say 80?
	Yes, I was going to say 80.
	You'd have a good instinctive judge of the culture then, right?
	Yes, I do.
	And the thing that I can see here, the school system, I'm actually looking at a lot of stuff here.
	It's almost like the UN took over the government here.
	There's a lot of stuff that I'm looking at.
	And I was like, wait a minute, this is the same thing people are fighting over there, except that people are here.
	You know, poor people are basically just want to eat.
	They really don't pay attention to politics.
	They're just busy trying to make more...
	Well, they want to eat and they want to make more poor people, right?
	Yes.
	And so...
	Yes.
	And no, actually, people, you know, people here usually are very good at very small business, like micro business, because usually they have a discrimination, age discrimination here.
	After 35, companies basically don't want you.
	They actually put it there on the requirements.
	Right.
	Why?
	Yeah, I don't know, really.
	Really?
	If you ever find out, call in and let us know.
	Let me know.
	I'm curious.
	I will.
	I will.
	And I said most of them is 25 to 35 because that's the age where you have graduated some kind of school, you know, from not high school.
	I'm talking about, you know, like corporate jobs and even, you know, mid-level jobs.
	And then so most people here are small business.
	Everybody's selling something.
	You know, everybody's selling something.
	So there's just like a small business minding.
	And then what's going on now is just like these people can't even open up a little business because the regulations are like, wait a minute, this is almost the same thing.
	You have to ask for this permit here, permit there, and everything.
	Whereas before, people were...
	And it's bribery and corruption, right?
	Yes.
	I said the laws here...
	Yeah, that's what...
	When you dip below IQ90... You get third world governments.
	You get corruption.
	You get this kind of theocracy or some form of, you know, that's kind of sleazy third world government stuff where everyone's on the take and everyone knows someone and you can't get ahead unless you know people.
	Yes, exactly.
	And actually, you know, I am a veteran and I went to Iraq and I could not tell the difference that much.
	In Iraq, I mean, because I was, you know, I was an interrogator.
	And I got to interview a lot of these guys, and they have a very...
	I almost thought that I was talking to a third grade person, like my man.
	I'm talking about men.
	So, for some reason, there's similarities.
	Like you say, maybe IQ level.
	Even the infrastructure, even the houses look just like the Middle East.
	I couldn't tell the difference.
	I mean, of course, I was there, and I said, but if I was thrown in there, and I said, this is Honduras, I wouldn't have said...
	Where am I? I would thought that I was in there.
	So it's something weird that is just almost the same.
	No, it's not weird.
	I mean, Iraq IQ is in the 80s as well.
	And again, lots of exceptions and blah.
	But yeah, I mean, all societies around the world who have IQs in particular bands tend to have kind of the same outcomes.
	They tend to have kind of the same crime levels.
	They tend to have kind of the same levels of corruption.
	IQ is one of the great levelers.
	And people who look at the world without seeing IQ... Aren't seeing the world.
	And again, IQ, maybe there's ways to change it over time.
	Nobody knows how to change it.
	So, you know, if you want to know how immigration is going to go, look at the IQ of the country that the immigrants are coming from.
	That's kind of what you're going to get.
	Now, the first wave of immigrants may be really smart, right?
	Yes.
	But the problem is, you know, like the tall Chinese guys who come over for basketball teams have shorter kids, right?
	So there's a regression to the mean.
	So this explains so many empirical facts, right?
	Like why Latino immigrants who come in legally do very well and then the second generation don't do as well.
	And then everyone's like, well, it's got to be racism, right?
	Because people don't understand the IQ thing, they end up blaming whites or whoever it is, right?
	I mean, just because they don't understand.
	Like if I thought I sang as well as Pavarotti...
	You know, and I was going to, I don't know, some Latino opera house, and they just never gave me a job.
	And everyone around me said, Steph, you sing as beautiful as Pavarotti, but they won't hire you because you're white.
	And after a while, I'll be like, well, God, I mean, I sound great to me.
	Everyone says I sound fantastically, and they're just not, they're hiring worse singers than I, because I'm white.
	You just get so angry.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	But if I listen to myself and I'm like, I just don't sound that good, it's like, oh, okay.
	So maybe, right?
	Maybe that's, right?
	And so this IQ thing, it's a challenge.
	It's one of the great heartbreaking things to understand about the world, but it is important for people to understand it.
	And this is why people like yourself, right, smart people, this is why they want to leave Latino countries and come to higher IQ countries.
	I mean, they go to Japan if they could, right?
	I mean, of course, right?
	Of course, because you can't make everyone around you smarter.
	But you can at least go to where the smart people are at.
	And that's my point.
	That's exactly what I'm talking about here.
	Because they're already there.
	So, you know, whichever way they can, they're already there.
	But they just stand in these little communities.
	And then they just don't get out of it.
	And even my brother...
	And you're giving up, right?
	Your parents, by going to the States, they said, we can't fix, we can't save Honduras.
	Yes.
	So it gets worse because the smart people, like two things happen, which is horrible.
	And I don't know how much foreign aid Honduras gets, but I'm sure it's more than zero.
	So what happens is the Western governments, by allowing lots of immigration into their countries, they take the smart people out of the third world countries, which lowers the intelligence in the third world countries even more.
	It takes the smart people out of the third world countries.
	And at the same time, they drop lots of extra food and lots of extra money and lots of foreign aid.
	So now it's like, OK, so all the people who were less smart, now you have lots of babies, but we're taking all the smart people and they wonder why these countries don't damn well get better.
	That's right.
	You're right.
	And whenever somebody goes and study there, because there's some people who go study and they come back, but they don't come back with this, I want a better...
	I think there's one, the president that's right here right now, I think he went to, I'm not sure if he went to some university, and I can see that he's actually doing a little bit, but still he's got a little backstory, I hear.
	I'm not sure because I don't read too much.
	I'm actually more in tune with the American news than here.
	But they have a backstory that, you know, he's probably doing something behind, because over here, there are a lot of municipalities, and even the government, the guy who was taken out with the coup, Mel Zelaya, you know, he just let pass the cartels.
	They just gave him a pass.
	It's sort of like a flag.
	You know, you used to tell them which way to go, where to go.
	You understand what I'm saying?
	It's just like a cartel.
	Basically, the government is the cartel.
	I don't know what's really happening in Mexico, too.
	Yeah.
	So actually, people want to get elected, not because they want to see the country, but because they just want to, you know, the drugs are easy, you know, if you get into the municipality, I don't know, I talked to somebody who was telling me that this major of a little town over there said, well, you can hold this and that, because, you know, he had a truck, and it's good business.
	And he said, that's how they do it, between municipalities, something like that.
	And I said, how in the hell is the country going to get better?
	Because that's the only thing they're doing.
	Yeah, I think countries could get better if the smart people stuck around.
	And if there wasn't this giant welfare state that pays poor people, often less intelligent people, to have lots and lots of kids.
	You know, there's a genetic component to intelligence, so you're just making more people who are going to be less successful.
	So if there was no foreign aid and if the smart people stayed in their home countries, there could be changes over time.
	That would be positive and beneficial.
	But the way things are working right now, you couldn't design a system more efficiently to cripple a country.
	Let's airlift all the smart people out and let's then pay the less smart people to have lots and lots of babies.
	Ah, I wonder why the country's not getting better.
	And the smart people recognize that.
	Well, we can't outvote the poor people because they're breeding like flies because of foreign aid and the welfare state, so we can't outvote them.
	So let's get the hell out.
	But they don't have welfare here, Stefan.
	These people are on their own.
	Everything is on their own.
	Hospitals, everything.
	These people pay out of pocket for everything.
	They have the social security system, which is basically healthcare from the government.
	I'm going to have to look that one up.
	I'm sure you're right.
	I'm sure you're right.
	You are the expert, but let's just see here.
	Honduras, welfare state.
	Yeah, no, they don't.
	They don't have a check.
	They don't.
	These people are on their own.
	If the United States of the international community is giving them money for that, they're not doing it for that.
	These people have kids, and actually I see them, they're very short, they're very lanky, not healthy, and so they don't.
	So, I don't know if that's one reason, too.
	But the thing I always get on the government, my anger is not with the people, it's with the government.
	Oh, no, I agree with you there, yeah.
	I don't get angry.
	I feel bad.
	I go off on them because, you know, for some reason, it's just like when I went off on my kids, when they're trying to control me, you know, I don't give you a free pass.
	But it's the government, actually, who's at fault.
	And I was saying, like, my idea is, like, you know how Trump wants to create safe zones for the Syrians or the Middle East.
	So I said, why doesn't he create safe, you know, economic zones here?
	Somehow get some kind of Yeah.
	Here is the money.
	You understand?
	I don't know.
	That's what I thought.
	I said, wait a minute, he's doing safe zones in Syria for refugees.
	These guys are kind of economic refugees, what they call it, you know, immigrants for work.
	And so safe zones, somehow, I don't know how they would do it.
	So, you know, they would help, you know, like you say, advance the...
	So like a generation ago, the tiny, right, 7 million people, I guess, probably even less back then.
	So a generation ago, Honduras became the 10th largest recipient of United States foreign aid.
	Total economic and military aid, more than $200 million U.S. in 1985, and remained at more than $100 million a year for the rest of the 1980s.
	Yes.
	I have, you know, that's so, I don't know what's going on at the moment.
	I don't see it.
	You don't see it.
	No.
	You don't see anything.
	I get upset when I see the bridges.
	I say, I know when Hondurans decide the bridge, and I know when somebody else, I said this because it looks like an American highway.
	So I'll drive on it right there.
	Yeah, I could tell, and I tell the people, because I'm very...
	Sorry to interrupt.
	About 44% of the government's fiscal shortfall was financed through cash from foreign sources.
	Yes.
	Imagine that.
	Yeah.
	So it's in the pocket of the big corporations, you know, the big business.
	They have a lot of groups here.
	Groups is like when a lot of corporations get together and they sort of, you know, that's how the telecommunications, you know, and all this big infrastructure works, you know, the malls.
	Because when I left, there was no malls.
	You could see malls everywhere.
	And this building, it's like, who's buying this building?
	These people can't even make money to buy buildings here.
	All this luxury.
	Yeah.
	Who's buying this stuff?
	We know where that's coming from.
	Because people can barely eat.
	So it's going into some people's pockets.
	Not the people itself.
	It's just somebody who has access to it.
	It says here, by the end of the 20th century, Honduras, like most other Latin American countries, had moved increasingly in the direction of the interventionist or welfare state.
	So, again, I'm not going to be able to, you know, sort this out quick, but it may not be, maybe you don't see a lot of it where people are, but it does seem to have, they do seem to have some aspect of it.
	No, I don't know.
	I have to find out what really is because I don't think so.
	I would be able to tell because, you know, I grew up here and I could see people.
	The thing that they do, some politicians do for, right now we have elections, is that they pay the bill for, you know, like, you know, Chavez used to do.
	He used to send, what do you say, heating oil to the states, to the old people.
	So that's what they do here.
	I'm not sure if that's what they're referring to.
	But this government takes credit for it.
	They don't take credit.
	It's like the United States is sending this.
	Because if they give that money to the government, forget it.
	They can present proposals, oh, this is what we're going to do with the money.
	But it's not going anywhere.
	It's just staying in their pockets.
	Because I don't see it.
	Right.
	Yeah, so I mean, I think everyone understands that It took thousands of years for Europe and European cultures to develop the free market, limited government and political freedoms and so on.
	It should have been pretty easy to reproduce in other countries.
	It's not like they're patented.
	You can't use the free market if you're not from the West.
	You're not European, you're not white.
	But it's really hard to reproduce in other countries.
	And the researchers that I've had on this show seem to have pretty good data that once you dip below IQ 90 in the population as a whole, You can't have a free society.
	Like, you just can't.
	It's just people aren't smart enough to defer gratification.
	They get greedy.
	They vote for short-term stupid stuff.
	I mean, they just, you know, you can't have a free society.
	And so this is why the smart people in lower IQ countries, like your family, they look around and they say, well, Jesus, I gotta get to the States.
	Because, you know, we can't fix this.
	We can't fix this.
	It's very hard.
	Well, no, I think it's been practically impossible.
	You know, I mean, look at Germany and look at Japan.
	Two countries that were bombed end to end.
	Like, destroyed.
	You know, we had this conversation, it was more of a fight really, with a listener about...
	The dropping of the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
	You know, they bombed, what was it, 67 cities.
	Leveled them completely.
	So these two countries destroyed end to end in the Second World War.
	And within a couple of years after the end of the Second World War, They were back up on their feet again.
	Because you've got two high IQ countries.
	Like Germany's back then was like over 100 and Japan is 106, 107.
	Like it's really, really smart country.
	So you look at the Jews, you know, marginalized and persecuted and pogroms and Holocaust and so on.
	You know, crazy intelligent.
	A group of people.
	And when the Jews fled Europe and came to America, it took them four years to achieve income parity with the whites in America.
	So, you know, Honduras has never had an atomic bomb dropped on it.
	Why can't it get itself off its feet?
	I mean, Japan could.
	Well, because there's like a 25-point difference in IQ. Yeah, and there's the sharks.
	You know, the sharks know that.
	I mean, I wish it were different.
	You know, everyone gets mad at me, like, don't shoot the messenger.
	But where the hell do we ever get as a species, forget the races, where do we ever get as a species of being human beings by ignoring fundamental realities like this?
	I mean, where do we get to?
	What kind of decisions are being made?
	And the thing is the left is making it worse.
	I cannot believe how the left is making it worse.
	They're sort of like just giving a free pass.
	It's just like I always go back for some reason when I think about my children.
	I cannot give them a free pass.
	As much as it hurts because you have to be tough on them.
	You have to be tough if you don't get tough with people because, you know, and even Mexico, like, what the hell is Mexico?
	This is what happened in Honduras.
	Why is Mexico believing that it has a right to claim anything in the United States?
	I'm talking about the government itself, much less the people.
	You know, the government itself.
	I mean, what do you have to do?
	No, I tell you, I mean, I don't know, Sarah, but I would guess it's something like this, that if I were in charge, like, let's say I'm evil.
	Let's say that I'm in charge of the Mexican government.
	I know, I know two things.
	Number one, the smartest people have gone to America.
	And number two, they're sending lots of money back to my country.
	Right, you got that.
	Now having, you know, so in a lot of cases, the American taxpayer pays illegal immigrants and legal immigrants welfare so that they can send that money back to.
	That's what I say.
	I like, you know, you just want to be chilling.
	You don't want to create jobs.
	You don't want to go against the grain.
	It's terrible.
	And so if I am, if I am, The Mexican government, it's like, well, all this money is coming into my country, and I don't have to provide any services.
	There you go.
	That's my point.
	Oh, my God.
	Free money.
	That's what I said.
	You don't want to do anything for your people.
	Yeah.
	I don't have to create schools because that's being done in America.
	I don't have to build roads.
	I don't have to have bridges.
	I don't have to have any of that stuff.
	I just get free money flowing across the border.
	In Mexico now, it's bigger than their oil trade, which is pretty damn big to begin with.
	Free money.
	Yes.
	Right?
	And so that's number one.
	I don't want these people to come back to my country because then I actually have to provide services for them.
	And they're not going to make as much in my country as they would in America.
	So I get less tax revenue, get less income coming into the country, and I have more expenditure.
	And you have to create jobs for them.
	Yeah, the Mexican government doesn't want these people coming back.
	That's what I said here too.
	That's what I said.
	You need to go against your own government.
	That's who you have to go against.
	You don't have to go.
	That's not your country.
	I have a brother-in-law who used to have on his face.
	I fight with people.
	And I say, I don't care.
	I don't care what you call me.
	Okay?
	You can call me anything you want.
	I'm just telling you what it is.
	So he had on his Facebook page when Trump won.
	You know, oh, he goes, he won.
	Well, he's going to do four Americans.
	He goes, what about the rest of the world?
	I said, wait a minute.
	What the hell is wrong with you?
	That's not your president.
	Did he come over here and campaign to Honduras?
	You tell him for me.
	You tell him for me, Sarah.
	White people have been trying to fix the rest of the world for about 300 years.
	How's it working out?
	If white people stop trying to help the world, the world might actually become a better place.
	Exactly.
	Anyway, but the second thing, too, is that the Mexican government slash cartels, right?
	So the Mexican government has built itself, and the politicians have built themselves on a kind of dumbed-down population because the smartest people have left to go to America or maybe other places.
	So if the smart people come back in the country, the smart people are going to start pulling apart all the bullshit that See, I know you were in the army so you can handle this kind of language.
	So the smart people are going to come back to Mexico and they're going to pull apart all the populist bullshit being spouted by the politicians.
	And they're going to say, well, this guy doesn't make any sense to this guy.
	Like right now they can chant and, you know, bang things together and, you know, people are like, yay, you know, viva, you know.
	But if the smart people come back, the politicians are going to have to up their game.
	Because they're going to actually have smarter people criticizing them.
	They want the smart people staying in America, sending the money back.
	They don't want to come back to Mexico.
	It's ruining a perfectly good gig.
	That's what I said.
	Oh my God.
	That's what my analysis was.
	I'm like, wait a minute.
	What do you think?
	We're twins.
	Separated at birth.
	And I tell him, I went to the mall and he's like, oh my God, Trump won.
	I'm like, that's not your president.
	That's not your president.
	And they look at me, I don't care the way you look at me.
	I'm going to tell you like it is.
	It's not your precedent.
	You need to go over here to this guy over there and talk to him about why you're living the way you're living.
	You know, that's not your precedent.
	You know, and I said, that's my president.
	I don't care.
	I say that.
	And I used to, even because I live in Brooklyn, imagine, I live in Brooklyn.
	And I used to go to the stores and he's like, you know, we get into the political conversation.
	He's like, who are you voting for?
	Trump?
	I said, what?
	I said, you know, I'm not racist.
	And he's not racist.
	He's just telling it like it is.
	And I understand Trump because I read his books a while back, and I understand exactly the way he thinks.
	I might not be as smart as he is because, you know, I don't have the experience, but I know the way he thinks.
	You know, so I go off on people.
	I don't care.
	I really don't care.
	I don't care what they say to me.
	You're a racist.
	No, I'm not against my people.
	I'm just telling you the way it is.
	You're already here in this country.
	Look at it.
	Just do it better.
	And I tell you something, Stephan, even as I'm talking like that, for some reason, it's also running the genes.
	It's a gene pool, too.
	Because even myself, I'm talking to you like that, and it's very hard for me to get going.
	What do you mean?
	I don't know if it's once in the, you know, like a society, like a society, what do they call it?
	Like a vibe.
	It's like a, it's just, you know, like different people have like, like a mean.
	Do you mean like speaking rhythms kind of thing?
	No.
	You recognize a person, a society, the way it is.
	And it's probably in the gene pool of the whole culture.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	You understand?
	I don't know if I understand.
	No, no.
	It makes perfect sense.
	I'm trying to jump over to sort of understanding the American way, but it's hard for me because I grew up here.
	You understand?
	So it's like a state of mind.
	That's what I call it.
	Yeah, and I think if people want to understand, I can't speak for Americans, but I think that there's some sense in this perspective.
	If other groups came to America and Canada did the same thing as Americans do over time, not right away, but over time, then I think Americans would be like, yeah, sure, you know, fine, the more the merrier, right?
	Yeah.
	But the problem is other groups come in and don't end up acting like Americans and don't end up integrating and do end up on welfare and do end up consuming a lot of resources without paying taxes.
	And they do end up voting left.
	They do end up voting for the left.
	And so the people on the right in America, we know why the people on the left want to bring people in from the third world because they reliably vote left.
	But you can't get upset for the people on the right saying, well, we don't want people who come in who vote for the left because we want a right-leaning country.
	We want smaller government.
	We want less welfare.
	We want people to be run by religion, not by the government.
	And so, you know, I mean, there's not a lot of people saying, oh my God, I'm really concerned about immigration from Japan.
	Because, you know, Japanese come in and they...
	Work very hard and they make more money than white people and they're in jail less than white people, commit fewer crimes than white people, like they're called the model minority.
	So there's not this big concern.
	But when you get people with IQs in the 80s coming in and there's a lot of welfare and there's a lot of crime and there's a lot of social dysfunction and there's a lot of problems and language difficulties and people got to fund it like crazy, of course people are going to get upset.
	It's not racism unless you just love the green that's in your wallet and want it to stay there.
	I don't call it racist.
	I'm sure there's people that are racist, which, you know, I don't condone that, but I know that when people are standing up for, you know, I understand why people migrate, because I did.
	But when you don't get into your head that you're in this country, and then you have to be at least adopt, you know, some kind of culture, like...
	But just stay out of the wallets of other people.
	Right.
	Just contribute more than you're taking out.
	The welfare state was supposed to be there for people who'd paid into it.
	Right.
	But people coming in from other countries and immediately going on the welfare state and consuming a huge amount of resources, of course there's going to be a backlash.
	I mean, it would be ridiculous to expect there wouldn't be.
	Of course there'll be.
	I mean, come on!
	Sarah, a delightful conversation.
	I've got to move on to the next caller, but you're welcome back anytime.
	I really, really appreciate the perspective, and thanks for bringing this view of things to the listenership.
	It was a great pleasure.
	Thank you so much, Stephen.
	I appreciate it.
	Take care.
	Right up next we have Jake.
	Jake wrote in and said, How would you rationally work out the Native American versus European settlers' claim on land?
	I'm hoping to get a better understanding of property rights and the philosophical basis for common law.
	That's Jake.
	Well, hey Jake, how you doing?
	I'm doing great.
	How about you?
	I'm well, thank you.
	So, what are your thoughts on it?
	But enough about me.
	Thank you.
	That's fine.
	I mean, I think about...
	Well, to start off, I guess, this question sparked off of a conversation you posted on YouTube where...
	With a good communist friend.
	Yes, exactly.
	Yeah.
	Exactly.
	And it just left me hungry just to understand more about property rights because I feel like it's the basis for a lot of how we can morally interact as a society.
	Yeah.
	I can understand that I own myself because no one has any control over me.
	Only I can control my body.
	From there, everything branches out in terms of what I own, my actions and all that.
	That makes all the sense in the world to me.
	It's self-evident.
	But then we get to these You know, the history of the Native Americans and the interactions with the settlers.
	And I start to wonder, like, my first reaction is like, it's so old.
	Let's just, you know, walk away from this and just leave it the way it is.
	But I wonder if, you know, I keep hearing, like, oh, the white people, they're so bad.
	They...
	They murdered all the Indians, and we all know, I mean, you and I at least know that that's not completely true, at least.
	Yeah, here's just, sorry to interrupt, but it's a thought experiment, and you can try this with your friends.
	Ask them what they admire about black culture.
	Ask them what they admire about Hispanic culture.
	Ask them what they admire about Asian culture, and then ask them what they admire about white culture.
	Okay.
	Or you can do the same thing with, like, Africa or Asia and then Europe.
	And I think you'll very quickly see how racist people are against whites.
	But anyway, go on.
	I think you're right in a lot of ways.
	It's hard to bring up.
	I work in the tech industry, so there's a lot of moral grandstanding, I find, in that.
	I feel the work because I don't know why that is, actually.
	It seems like everywhere I go, everyone's a leftist for the most part.
	But I just try to...
	Well, it's two things.
	Number one, I mean, they've gone through university, a lot of them.
	And number two, the tech industry is pretty dependent on foreign labor.
	That's awesome.
	It's the one-two of indoctrination and follow the money.
	But anyway.
	Very interesting.
	So, yeah, I mean, another example, I guess, to kind of branch off of that original...
	YouTube conversation, or if you want to call it a conversation.
	Wait, wait.
	Are we branching off?
	Because we haven't actually done anything yet.
	I don't know that we want to branch off before we've done anything.
	Yeah, sure.
	I'm just trying to get to an example that's solid for me to understand, I guess.
	The example of, I think it was, I took a painting from you, handed it to my daughter, and we both die, or one of us dies.
	Does your daughter have claim on the painting?
	And kind of, maybe that...
	Well, let's, I mean, you know, let's take something a little...
	I mean, so, Muslims, hundreds of years ago, like, took tens of millions of blacks and slaves and killed, or ended up being responsible for the death of millions of blacks from Africa.
	Do the Muslims owe reparation to blacks?
	I'm sorry, I'm not following.
	So...
	In the Muslim world, right?
	Middle Eastern world.
	And they also took millions of European slaves, millions of white slaves.
	Right.
	So do the Muslims now in the Middle East owe reparations to blacks or to whites or to other people that their ancestors took as slaves?
	Have you ever even heard that question?
	Do you feel comfortable with that question?
	Why have you never heard that question before?
	Right, right.
	So, like, let's not pretend there are any principles involved here.
	It's about stimulating white guilt.
	Like, let's just be really frank about this, Jake.
	Because of all of the groups across the world, whites have treated people the best.
	Whites ended slavery.
	Whites have created the civilizations that everyone wants to get into.
	So why is it whites that are being picked on for this stuff?
	Because whites feel guilt about it, or can.
	Because whites have this universalism and empathy, right?
	Right, right, right.
	Exactly.
	And in fact, I only feel like I have the ability to have these conversations because I don't look white all the time.
	If that makes sense.
	Are you a disco ball?
	I don't understand.
	Do you tan well?
	What does this mean?
	I say it like that because throughout my life, I'm a mixed race.
	My mother is of many races herself, and my father is mostly white.
	So I found myself being looked at as an ethnic individual from those in the white community.
	And everyone, mostly in the black community, because I grew up in a black community in my early years, they mostly saw me as a white person.
	I feel like when I approach people, they don't know necessarily if they can talk racial topics.
	Isn't that sad?
	Yeah, exactly.
	It's like, well, you're going to treat me completely differently depending on which race you think I might be.
	Right, and it is.
	I mean, I'm sorry.
	I'm really, really sorry.
	Like, I just know everyone's going to hate me because I'm white.
	Like, I just know that up front.
	Like, that's just a given.
	But I'm just kidding, right?
	But I'm sorry that you have that experience where you kind of know that how people are going to treat you differs depending on what race they think you are.
	That's kind of weird, right?
	I shouldn't say that.
	I shouldn't say, like, it is.
	But I could imagine it would be.
	It's been a jarring experience at first, but you know, looking back and actually just, I'm a big fan of your show, by the way, and looking back at your research has just kind of like enlightened my, oh, of course, that's why it's like this.
	It's like, that's why people act this way.
	It releases you from a lot of tension when you have the facts.
	That's kind of what I want in society.
	Exactly.
	So, yeah, so what you're saying, if I understand correctly, Is that it's not so much that there is a, important to point out a, what's the term, a priori?
	Why don't, no, sorry to interrupt Jake.
	Why don't people go to the Middle East and try and get reparations for blacks?
	Oh, because they don't have the guilt that we do?
	I don't know.
	What do you think?
	I mean, the slaves, like, there aren't any blacks in the Middle East.
	They took up, what, 100 million slaves?
	Where did they all go?
	I mean, who owes reparations?
	The blacks who went from South-Saharan Africa to America ended up 30 times richer than the blacks who stayed in Africa.
	Yep.
	So why is it only white people who are constantly nagged at for wars and restitution and reparations?
	And it's like, if this is some universal principle, if it was a universal principle, you'd say, okay, well, what are the most egregious violations of sovereignty throughout history?
	Let's go and try and get reparations from that.
	But I don't see a lot of people...
	Going to Saudi Arabia or Morocco or other places and starting movements to try and get reparations from the Muslims to the blacks.
	Why?
	If this is such a big principle, why?
	It couldn't possibly be because they're scared to.
	It couldn't possibly be because they think they might be laughed out.
	It couldn't possibly be because they're just picking on the people who have the most sensitive consciences and using it to extract resources.
	I mean, you couldn't imagine anything like that, could you, Jake?
	Yeah.
	No, no, not at all.
	No, I didn't think so.
	Me neither.
	I didn't even know what I was saying.
	It just blurt out in a big, bigoted whirlwind.
	I don't know what that was.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Now, that having been said.
	Sure, sure.
	It's a great question.
	Like, if we sort of, like, I just want to make people aware that this is a lot of, like, anti-white racism and blah, blah, blah.
	But that having been said, Jake, it's a great question.
	And I, you know, want to, now that that's out of the way.
	Sure, sure.
	Do you mind if we, should we dig in?
	Oh, I would love to.
	All right.
	So, the challenge between farmers and hunter-gatherers has been going on and on throughout all the human history.
	Right?
	Because there's different uses of the land.
	The hunter-gatherers are passing through, and the farmers ain't.
	Right?
	Right, right.
	The hunter-gatherers are tumbleweeds, and the farmers are oak trees, right?
	Right, that makes sense.
	Now, the hunter-gatherers do not invest labor into the land.
	They invest labor into hunting, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	Hunter-gatherers do not clear the land.
	Have you ever tried to clear land just out of curiosity?
	It's fucking horrible.
	It is a god-awful thing to do.
	Have you ever had to take a tree out of the ground?
	No, not yet.
	Man, you know what?
	I just want an air strike when I have to do that in my life.
	I want some giant ass laser from space.
	I don't care if I end up with a crater the size of the thing in Arizona where something the size of Mars fell onto the planet.
	I don't care if it kills every giant lizard on the planet.
	I just want some giant laser space weapon.
	Because I've had to do it a couple of times, particularly when I worked up north when we needed to sort of clear a place for where our base was going to be.
	It's horrible.
	And that's with modern tools.
	It's horrible.
	So, you know, if you go into the woods, right, you go and just stand in the woods and say, okay, I got, like, An ass full of trees and brambles and bushes and god-awful stuff down there and roots that just go on and on and on.
	And imagine you've got to turn it into farmland and With a popsicle stick.
	Because, I mean, what the hell did you have 400 years ago?
	I mean, you got some iron and saws and stuff like that and shovels and that and picks.
	But it's god-awful, right?
	Yeah.
	You see those fail videos where they've got these tractors trying to pull trees out and the fucking trees flip the tractors over.
	That's true.
	You know?
	I mean, it's bloody horrible.
	So...
	One of the reasons hunter-gathering is so attractive is you never have to do that shit at all, right?
	You just don't.
	And who wants to?
	Who wants to?
	I'd rather shove up my driveway five times than get one sapling out of it.
	I mean, unless I'm allowed to use hand grenades and stuff.
	So the farmers really invest in the land and break their backs and probably lose five children just clearing one acre of land.
	It's so godawful, right?
	So the property rights...
	Between hunter-gatherers and between farmers are ridiculously incompatible.
	The hunter-gatherers, they don't do anything.
	Because they're just following the herds.
	They'll just find a clearing, set up their tents, and move on.
	Okay.
	So, just so I can reiterate what you're saying, make sure we're clear.
	You're saying that the investment of the natives' actions are into their...
	Their lifestyle of nomadic chasing of animals and not on the land itself, while settlers will actually invest their actions into the land, basically.
	And that's how the chain works philosophically.
	Well, this is the incompatibility, right?
	Right.
	Which is that As farming expands, like the farmers don't want the deer around because the deer will eat the crops, right?
	So the farmers have to kind of drive off the deer or chase them away or something like that.
	And so as farming expands...
	Then the area available for the hunter-gatherer stuff diminishes.
	I mean, naturally, right?
	Now, in a huge continent like America, which is still like 90% or 98% unpopulated, there's lots of room.
	But that is a challenge, right?
	Farmers also build irrigation, suck up the water and so on, which the hunter-gatherers need and which they're following the Right?
	They'll repurpose rivers, they'll build dams and all this kind of stuff, which changes the water table, changes the water, and therefore you've got problems with the movements of the animals that the hunter-gatherers are following and all that kind of stuff, right?
	So there's just this, and it's been going on.
	It's not about the Europeans and the natives.
	This has been going on and on and on throughout human history that you get hunter-gatherers.
	Now, hunter-gathering is a shitty lifestyle.
	I'm sorry.
	I mean, I don't know if you've ever looked at a...
	A squirrel in the woods and say, man, that'd be great to eat.
	I'm for sure not going to expend more calories chasing it than I get to eating it.
	But it's horrible.
	It's a horrible lifestyle.
	And this is one of the reasons why the population of hunter-gatherers is tiny.
	It's tiny.
	Like, they need ridiculous amounts of space to sustain even a tribe of a couple of dozen people.
	Because, you know, we need like...
	2,000 to 3,000 calories a day, and hunter-gathering, you expend crazy amounts of energy.
	You do in farming too, but at least you're guaranteed more of a response or of a refill.
	Sure.
	So hunter-gatherers, they don't produce the excess calories and the stable food source.
	That farmers do, right?
	So there's this book, I did an interview with a guy called 10,000 Year Explosion, which is like all the good stuff that came out of farming, like the amount of calories that are produced by farmers is higher, especially once you domesticate animals like cows and so on, or you get the milk, right?
	You get to be a vampire.
	And so the calories that are produced by farmers are far higher.
	What that means is that agricultural-based societies grow.
	In number.
	And then when they come in, when they want to expand into areas of the world, you know, we know Europe and North America, but this stuff been going on for thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of years, well, at least 10,000 years, in fact, since animals were domesticated and agriculture really became...
	The thing, right?
	So with agriculture, you get a lot of excess wealth, and primarily in the form of calories, which allows you to raise your population, it allows for cities, it allows for organization, and you get specifically greater incentives for improving your technology.
	Like, a bow and arrow is a bow and arrow.
	I mean, you know, you can't get all catness on it, you know, when it comes to North America, you know, 5,000 years ago.
	I mean, they know this.
	The technology had barely changed from, like, the Stone Age.
	I mean, it's like, we have a spear, we have a bow and arrow, we have an axe, you know, stuff like that.
	It doesn't really change that much, right?
	It didn't even have the wheel, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	But if you have, like, if you have farming, well, you've got to grind up the flour and stuff like that.
	So you've got to get a big mill, so you've got to get a big water wheel, so you've got all these things.
	You've got to get Conan to go round for 20 years to build up his back muscles so he can kill a wizard or something.
	So you have all of this technology that you want to develop as part of the whole farming thing, right?
	You've got harnesses, you've got plows, you've got, like, there's so much incentive.
	And you have the excess wealth, excess calories to have blacksmiths and all these people who are constantly testing out new alloys of metal, new ways of doing things, new technologies and so on.
	So when you switch to farming, what happens is...
	Smarter people do better, and you get an overall IQ rise, which is pretty significant.
	You have excess wealth, you get excess population, and you get better technology.
	So what happens is when farming communities run into hunter-gathering communities, well, who do you think wins?
	Well, clearly, I think we know the answer, right?
	This is not because the farmers are mean.
	It's just this is the way societies worked before there was an international tribunal at The Hague or something like that.
	Sure, sure.
	Society's worked quite a bit.
	So tell me what you think.
	I want to make sure we're sort of roughly on the same page so far.
	I mean, so far, it makes a lot of sense, the case of the incompatibility.
	That, I think, is very clear.
	I think...
	The amount of investment on the Europeans' part to actually have a requirement to claim land in that way, that makes a lot of sense.
	The only part I'm not connecting, I guess you're kind of making an argument, maybe you're not, but in that the Indians' claim on land wasn't as strong as ours in a way.
	No, but the Indians didn't view land as a resource that you could claim because it wasn't the source of their food.
	For a farming community, the land is the source of your food.
	For a hunter-gathering community, the land is not the source of your food.
	I mean, okay, there's nuts and berries and shit like that, but you're always on the move following the herd of whatever animal, the caribou, the bison, or the elk, or whatever it is you're hunting, right?
	And you wouldn't necessarily...
	So if somebody came along to you...
	Sorry to interrupt, Jake.
	But if somebody came along to you and said, Jake, I'm going to give you...
	$5,000 for a patch of air down the street, what would you say?
	No, thank you.
	No, what would you say?
	For a patch of air?
	Yeah.
	Oh, wait.
	They're offering me for a patch of air.
	Yeah, here's $5,000 for a patch of air down the street.
	Oh, well, thank you very much, actually.
	Yeah, I'll take that.
	Now, why would you take that?
	Because I don't have any use for that patch of air, most likely, and I haven't really viewed it as a claim, right?
	Yeah, because you could breed some other air, right?
	So if the hunter-gatherer society, remember, there's very few of them relative to the landmass as a whole, because it's really horrible trying to live off animals and stuff like that without agriculture.
	So when the farmers come along and say, we're going to give you a handful of beads for this area of land, they're like, fuck, I'm fine.
	Sure.
	I mean, not our land.
	We don't think of it at us.
	Now, if they said, well, we're going to give you a handful of beads to kill all of the animals you're following, they'd say no.
	Because the animals are the source of their food, right?
	Right, right.
	That makes sense.
	But if they said, okay, you can't come back, like you've got 12 trillion hectares, but you can't come back to these 20 hectares at some point in the future, they're like, yeah, free stuff, patch of air, fine.
	Woo!
	Can't believe those white suckers are willing to give me, you know, a handful of beads for a Manhattan, who cares, right?
	Interesting.
	We don't think of it as our property.
	Now, if somebody were to say to them, we'll give you, you know, $10 for all of the bows and arrows that you have, they'd say no, because we can't hunt without the bows and arrows, right?
	That's the source of their food, right?
	That's their food tools.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And so this incompatibility, for the hunter-gatherer, there's more land that it doesn't really matter.
	But for the agricultural community, they need that land.
	Now, the agricultural community will not...
	Create a farm unless it has clear and perpetual title.
	Why?
	Because they need to rely on that as their source of whatever they produce, basically, right?
	Well, yes, okay, but do you remember we talked about, or I talked about how god-awful it was to clear land?
	Right.
	Will you bother doing it if you can't know for sure it's going to be yours?
	Okay, yeah.
	Right.
	Right?
	So, the only way farming community works is if there's 100% ownership over land.
	Like, no fooling.
	Like, no.
	Not at least.
	Not for a while.
	Not unless someone changes their mind.
	Like, there's no way.
	If you want people to go and clear the land and build farms, you have got to give them, like, a no fooling 100% ownership over that land forever.
	Okay, yeah.
	Does that make sense?
	That makes sense.
	Like, this is why nobody changes the oil in a rental car, you know, or bothers, you know, fixing up a rental property that much, right?
	Right, right.
	So, here's the incompatibility.
	For farming to work, you need 100%, no fooling, perpetual ownership of a particular patch of land.
	And the hunter-gatherers don't really care.
	So the incentives for the farming communities to expand their land is huge.
	And the incentives for the hunter-gatherers to resist that, if they're paid, is tiny.
	Right.
	Does that make sense?
	That makes sense.
	So this conflict, and this is why farming tends to spread, where it's remotely feasible.
	Like, it doesn't spread in the outback of Australia where it's not really feasible, and it doesn't spread in other areas where it's not really feasible.
	You know, like where you have tropics where, you know, the birds and the bugs are going to eat everything you could possibly plant, and there's stuff falling off the trees anyway, so who cares, right?
	Right, totally.
	But where farming can expand, it inexorably will.
	And the hunter-gatherers, because they have fundamentally different conceptions of property, of ownership, and so on.
	Like, why on earth would...
	You know, it's like, if you want to walk through a mall once a year, can I sell you the right to walk through that mall?
	Like, here, $10,000.
	You pay me $10,000 and you can walk through this mall once a year.
	You'd be like, no, forget it.
	I'm just walking through.
	Why the hell would I want to own anything?
	Right.
	It's the same thing with the hunter-gatherers.
	We're just passing through.
	What the hell would we want to do?
	Because they're not clearing the land.
	The land is not their food source.
	It's the animals they're following.
	Okay.
	So that is the challenge when it comes to this conflict.
	And this is why a lot of the hunter-gatherers throughout society have been more than willing to take a certain amount of money for the land that they're just passing through.
	Mm-hmm.
	You know, it's sort of like, okay, well, you can't walk through this particular patch of ground, but you can go 200 yards to the left.
	They're like, okay, fine.
	You know, yeah, pay me $10,000, sure.
	Yeah, no problem with that, right?
	Interesting.
	And this just continues and continues.
	And then what happens is, at some point, the expansion of the farms begins to really push into what the hunter-gatherers need to survive.
	And that's when you get the conflict, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so you're saying that that's most likely most of the cases of any conflict we had with the Indians, us kind of encroaching into their hunting lands, essentially.
	Is that right?
	Well, they can move their hunting lands, and they'll do so for a while, but at some point, it's just kind of an incompatibility.
	And at some point, they kind of freak out.
	Right.
	Because they're like, okay, that's a lot of farmland we can't go to anymore, right?
	That's a big problem.
	And they did try in America, this was sort of a mid to late 19th century, they really did try to convert the Indians to farmers.
	There was a big giant, I can't remember, it was half of Wisconsin or something like that, like just massive amounts of land.
	They got 40 acres, they got a mule, they got tools, and they're like, here you go.
	This is how you farm.
	Here are the seeds.
	Here's your land.
	You can totally have a great community here.
	Here's your town.
	And just become farmers for the love of all that's holy because this is just going to end in tears, right?
	I didn't know that happened.
	Huh.
	And they took that.
	Massive numbers of the Indians took that deal.
	I'm like, phew, fantastic.
	Let's go try and be farmers.
	Oh, wait, is that some booze right there?
	Try that, right?
	And one of the bio incompatibilities between Western civilization and the Indians, which I've talked about before, is that when you're a hunter-gatherer, you need short bursts of high activity, right?
	You're hunting, you're chasing or whatever.
	And then there's a lot of lazing around, right?
	Now, if you're a farmer, I mean, God awful.
	I mean, it's dawn till dusk, right?
	It's just like boom, boom, boom, right?
	It's just work, work, work all the goddamn time.
	Some fence is down.
	You've got to plow something.
	Something needs to be pulled.
	You've got to drag some baby cow out of an ass of a bigger cow or something.
	It's just nonstop.
	And so in Europe...
	Those who could process alcohol were able to get additional calories from alcohol, right?
	Because alcohol doesn't really go bad, right?
	Not that quickly, right?
	Right.
	So, you know, beer and wine and so on.
	So if you could drink alcohol, you got additional calories.
	So the gene for processing alcohol spread throughout the Europeans, just as the genes for drinking milk spread throughout the Europeans, right?
	Right.
	And so having portable food sources like cows and a distillery gave Europeans lots of energy, right?
	Lots of energy.
	And of course, a lot of times conflict between different groups comes down to who has more calories, right?
	Sure.
	An army marches on its stomach as the old saying goes.
	If you want to, you know, as they always do anytime any European invades Russia, they just kill the supply lines, right?
	They poison the wells and the army starves to death and dies in the winter.
	So In North America, they don't have, the natives in general don't have the genes that process alcohol and gets it out of your system and so on.
	And so when they, you know, what was the big exchange?
	You know, okay, we'll give you guys smallpox and alcohol, you give us syphilis and tobacco.
	You know, and we'll just see who kills who more over time.
	And I think the Indians won that because tobacco tends to be killing like crazy numbers of people around the world.
	Right, totally.
	The alcohol being the massive curse, right?
	And they could not adjust for a variety of reasons that I don't even pretend to fully understand, but they did not make the transition to being farmers.
	Right?
	They drank, they sold, they messed things up, they went back to hunter-gathering or whatever it is, right?
	I mean, it's probably about as easy to turn a hunter-gatherer into a farmer as vice versa.
	Sure.
	And I sure as hell don't want to be a hunter-gatherer.
	I think that's a pretty shitty way to live.
	Right, right.
	So there was lots of attempts and in desperation to try and get this integration to work, I know, I don't know if it happened in the States, but up here in Canada, they had these things called residential schools.
	Where they took the Indian kids, the native kids, the indigenous kids away from their parents and they put them in these schools and they tried to completely westernize them and it was just awful.
	Just, I mean, rape, sexual abuse, brutality, violence.
	I mean, because it was a government program called Let's Humanize People, and it was just horrible.
	And the natives here, the indigenous people here, are outraged about it and have every damn right to be outraged about it because it was a horrible government program.
	I still don't know why my daughter should pay for all this stuff, but that's another topic.
	Right, right.
	So as far as, you know, settlers' claims on land and so on, because there's such different conceptions of the value and utility of land.
	You know, like a farm needs a fence.
	What the hell does a fence do for a hunter-gatherer?
	Nothing.
	It's an annoyance.
	It gets in the way.
	Right?
	So enclosing the land, clearing the land, that's the basis of farming.
	But it's completely incomprehensible why you'd bother doing that.
	You know, to me it's like, okay, I need to build a fence around this air.
	And people were like, what?
	Why?
	What are you crazy?
	It's not your air.
	It's just air we all breathe.
	Forget it.
	So these incompatibilities are a huge challenge.
	Now, most times what happened throughout history was the farmers would expand and they would drive the hunter-gatherers into like the shittiest land known to man.
	And this still occurs in places in sub-Saharan Africa.
	There are like hunter-gatherers just eking by, like eating dung beetles and shit like this, right?
	Because they're just right out there on the edge of...
	Like no farmers even want to go there.
	It's so crap.
	Oh, man.
	Right?
	So that's brutal stuff, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And or they just basically die.
	Like they just get pushed further and further out.
	They lose their...
	They're source animals for their calories and they just die.
	Or, you know, they get enslaved or they integrate as best they can or whatever it is.
	So generally it's been pushed to the complete fringes or wiped out or fully integrated.
	And that's how it went throughout most of history because they have more calories, more incentive, and they just win and better tools.
	So with North America, something else was tried, which was let's trade.
	But because there were such radically different conceptions of property rights, it really couldn't last.
	And of course there was, as there always is, when you get bioincompatible, you can see this, right?
	People coming in from the third world, bringing god-awful diseases into North America and into Europe that haven't been seen in decades and sometimes even longer.
	Because, you know, smallpox and syphilis and smoking and all this kind of crap, there was just, not that smoking is bio, but there was kind of an incompatibility for all this kind of stuff.
	So how do you resolve this?
	I don't know that you can.
	But I will tell you this.
	My concern with the natives or the indigenous people in America, who themselves, there are some arguments that they weren't even the indigenous ones.
	That there were people before them that they wiped out.
	So again, you know, it's one of these things where, you know, well, it's still the fault of white people, I'm sure.
	But my question is...
	Is it my daughter's fault?
	Should she have to be paid?
	Should her property rights be violated for treaties signed by governments a long time ago?
	Can they sign on her behalf?
	My concern with the property rights at the moment is not what happened 400 years ago between farmers and hunter-gatherers.
	My concern, Jake, is is it fair at the moment to violate my daughter's property rights or my property rights for that matter?
	To pay for these issues.
	That to me is a much more pressing and we can do something about it.
	No time machine, right?
	We can do something about that.
	That's the violation of property that to me seems a little bit more relevant than what happened hundreds of years ago.
	I feel that's right.
	So, right.
	I mean, it is immoral.
	From what you describe, to force any newborn child into a contract that they didn't accept, right?
	That's stealing from the unborn, really, like you commonly say.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm still having...
	Well, no, but the challenge is, right, can the government enter into a contract that covers or allows for the just expropriation of property from people born after You could say, well, like, to me, it's like, okay, well, the government should not be able to enter contracts that outlive the people who voted for it.
	Right.
	Right?
	I mean, the government contracts are a big problem as a whole.
	Right, right.
	But for sure, the government should not be able to sign contracts in perpetuity.
	Because, yeah, they get peace and votes at the moment, but, my God, I mean, how is that fair in the future, right?
	Right.
	When you say it from a government perspective, just about anything from a government perspective to me is immoral.
	But if the government is like, you know, someone stole my car, go get it back, at least the government's doing something to maintain property rights, right?
	So that to me is very different from...
	The government bought peace at some point in the past or bought votes or bought, you know, whatever it was that they wanted to do it.
	And to do that now, you know, my daughter has to pay a thousand dollars a year and her daughter and kids have to pay a thousand like in perpetuity.
	That, to me, is not fair.
	Like, if we're really concerned about the unjust transfer of property, let's forget about the stuff which has been going on for 10,000 years between agricultural and hunter-gatherer societies, and let's talk about the unjust transfer of property that's happening at the moment between indigenous and non-indigenous people, whatever.
	I don't know how to phrase this stuff anymore.
	That, to me, is something we can actually examine from a moral standpoint that is a little bit more relevant and actionable than stuff that happened a long time ago.
	So, I agree.
	That makes a lot of sense.
	We want to deal with the moral issues that we can deal with right now.
	And I honestly can't think of a way to see the chain of sin, if you will, and find a way to dynamically bring them all back to normal, if that's possible at all.
	But the...
	Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm more concerned with...
	The chain of property rights, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, so do you want to talk about the painting example?
	Because it's a very interesting one.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Like, I agree that...
	It's rare, but it's interesting.
	Okay, yeah, sure.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, okay.
	So, clearly, if you steal my painting, I should get it back, right?
	Absolutely.
	Like, immediately, right?
	And if you steal my painting and I only find out about it 10 years from now, I should still get it back.
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	Right?
	So, there is – but it's 1,000 years.
	I mean, really?
	Yeah.
	You know, like at some point, right?
	I mean, if we try to put everyone back to where they started, we're all going back to like 12 square acres in sub-Saharan Africa, right?
	I mean, like there's been weird stuff going on and bad stuff going on, if you can put it that way, throughout human history, right?
	But the competition for resources has produced the most excellent specimens of modern humanity that can do all cool things like have discussions about property rights, right?
	Absolutely.
	Plus, it had a lot to do with banging Neanderthals.
	So I don't know much about that, and I don't like to picture it.
	Well, maybe I do.
	I haven't found that website yet, but I'm sure it's out there.
	Neanderporn!
	Oh, Mike registered that name.
	So somewhere in between...
	For decades and centuries, we have to let it go.
	And this is the idea of statute of limitations, right?
	And this is common in criminality, right?
	There are a few crimes that are exempt from statute of limitations, like murder and so on.
	But, you know, for a lot of people, it's like, okay, if you haven't done anything about it for 10 years or five years or whatever it's going to be, you can't do anything about it.
	Because if it was that important to you, you would have done something about it already.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	So in that case, it's not so much like a philosophical argument that is self-evident.
	It's more like a common sense argument in that case.
	Is that accurate?
	Well, I think so.
	I mean, I think so.
	You don't want it to be like, you could make the case, okay, well, if everyone's dead, forget it.
	Like, once the bodies pile up, whoever's got stuff gets to keep it.
	But I don't think that's particularly fair.
	Because, you know, if you steal a painting from me, and I'm sorry to make you the bad guy.
	Oh, that's fine.
	If you steal a painting from me, and then the next day we both die, does that mean that your kids get to keep the painting?
	You know, like, again, these are very unusual situations, but that's okay.
	We don't mind, like, trying to do a bit of Socratic reasoning on that.
	Sure.
	That principle may have value of, it should not just be the lifetime of the person, but at the same time, it can't be in perpetuity.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	I'm so curious to talk about this aspect, because I was talking to my wife about it, and she was like, well, what about inheritance at that point?
	Isn't it kind of natural that your bloodline, almost, as a child, as a product of your actions, to put it nicely, Yeah.
	No, I understand that for sure.
	Okay.
	And, you know, this has actually been talked about in terms of reparations.
	You know, the Germans stole from Jews and other groups and then put the money in certain banks and the banks should give the money back to the families and so on.
	And these are, you know, solid and important questions to look at.
	And I'm certainly not going to be able to answer them to anyone's final satisfaction.
	But I will say this.
	I think it's fair to say that, you know, 10 generations on, stop obsessing about your father's painting and go make something of your own, right?
	Like, just go make a painting, right?
	You know, well, that painting, it could be sold for $10,000 now, and it's like, just go make your own $10,000 and let it be bygones.
	Like, at some point, you gotta let it go.
	Right, that's my gut feeling for sure, yeah.
	You know, and I wish I had some big philosophical argument for it other than, for God's sakes, people.
	It's just like we're never, ever going to move on as a species if all we're doing is facing back and trying to right all the wrongs of the past.
	Right, right.
	So, you know, inheritance is one of these things, like, I get the socialist criticism of it.
	It's kind of unfair.
	You know, and there's no way to solve it.
	Because life is unfair.
	It is unfair.
	But as the old saying goes, fair is the thing that comes with a circus tent in the fall.
	That's all you get.
	So I do have a problem with...
	It's not fair that some kids inherit...
	Cars and businesses and houses and money and other kids are like scrambling around and all that kind of stuff.
	But it generally seems to be that it writes itself over time.
	Because, you know, the kids who grew up wealthy tend to end up less motivated and the kids who grew up Hungry tend to be more motivated.
	So, you know, things slosh back and forth.
	And I get that it's unfair.
	It's just that there's no way to solve it.
	Because the only way to solve this unfairness is to create some big giant society that taxes everything and moves things around.
	And that's going to prove to be even more unfair because it's going to be politically motivated.
	Right?
	So...
	You know, some people are born really pretty.
	Some people are born with great singing.
	Some people are born taller.
	Some people are born with great hair.
	And, you know, these things like height and great hair makes you more money.
	It's not fair.
	Sometimes they even get you elected in Canada.
	I mean, it's not fair.
	It's just this is the way things are.
	And we have to sort of accept that there's a level of unfairness in society.
	And hopefully we can convince people who have...
	I wouldn't say unjustly.
	Who have...
	Through an accident of birth inherited either money or talents and say, okay, you kind of got lucky there.
	You get that, right?
	So maybe, just maybe, you can take some of your good luck and put it to the service of humanity as a whole.
	Right.
	You know, I happen to have been born with a very good brain.
	And, you know, I've worked hard at it, you know, to make it better and all that.
	But lots of people could have worked as hard and not, you know, not coming.
	If singing practiced, you know, I'd be better than anyone because I'd sing all the time.
	But...
	So I'm lucky and I try to accept some of that luck and use it to benefit the world and to use my capacity to synthesize and explain things.
	It's been a great conversation.
	I think we both learned a lot and millions of people are going to learn about this.
	I have this just weird ability to synthesize and explain things in a way that It's really readily understandable to people, and that's great.
	I also have a lot of stamina, by the way.
	I'm pretty impressed.
	I'm sorry?
	You have a lot of stamina?
	Yeah, it's like 11 o'clock now.
	Four hours, baby!
	Four hours.
	I'm not a talker either, so if I talk for more than one hour, I get exhausted.
	So I'm really impressed.
	Right.
	Well, that's why the camera's just shoulders up so I can see myself.
	Like I'm some NASA astronaut driving cross country.
	Yeah, so I do think the inheritance thing, I, you know, you can't solve it.
	It's just the way it is.
	It's genetics, it's money, it's resources, it's, you know, even good parenting.
	Good parenting versus bad parenting.
	It sucks for the kids who are badly parented, and it's great for the kids who are well-parented, but we can't tax the parents and make them go to other families.
	Like, you can't solve it.
	You can't solve it except through, you know, convincing and free speech and encouraging people to be better and so on.
	So, to me, I don't know.
	Maybe one generation?
	Like, can you go and say, well, you stole this from my dad.
	I want it back.
	Your dad's been dead for 20 years.
	I don't know.
	Maybe it's within a certain amount of time after the person dies.
	And again, there's no exact argument where you say, well, this is the exact perfect answer.
	And this stuff does happen in philosophy.
	I mean, and it doesn't mean that philosophy is subjective or anything.
	It just means that sometimes you have to make common sense decisions, and they may be open to tweaking in the future.
	I'm not a big fan of, obviously, you know, five generations ago, something was stolen from me.
	I want it back.
	Right.
	I mean, I think that's hard to make just and fair.
	Also, legal standards change.
	Social perceptions change.
	I mean, do we owe people reparations for slavery when slavery was legal?
	Do we owe people reparations from slavery when, you know, according to the mainstream narrative, 600,000 Americans or 800,000 Americans were drafted and died and were killed to free the slaves?
	I mean, where's the reparations for being drafted?
	Do we owe reparations for people who were drafted in Vietnam, although the draft was legal?
	You can't ever, ever end this particular approach, right?
	I mean, you can always find an injustice Whether it was legal or not at the time that harmed people's economic or emotional interests and then we can say well this must be remedied.
	The problem is that the way to remedy it, if it's not charity, the way to remedy it is to create some big giant government forceful program to shuffle around resources at the point of a gun, thus creating a whole bunch of new injustices, right?
	There at least has to be a way of solving these things that don't create massive rounds of new injustices.
	And so I think that there has to be a statute of limitations.
	And this also comes out of real care and compassion for the indigenous population.
	I mean, a lot of people, I've actually been to the reservations and seen, I'm no expert, but I've been there and seen it with my own eyes.
	It's a horrible, horrible existence.
	This is not doing the indigenous people any favors.
	It's doing the chiefs and the politicians a whole bunch of favors, but the average person, It has a pretty wretched life in this environment.
	So this is not helping them at all, I think.
	And it's certainly not helping the people whose money is stripped.
	It's just a small number of people feeding off this guilt and resentment and so on being profitable for them.
	So I think that we would have to find a sort of statute of limitations for the repatriation of property.
	I think when you have the conflicts between farmers and hunter-gatherers, you can't fix it.
	You can't go back and fix it because the conceptions are just too different of what property is, of what property means, of what ownership means.
	The hunter-gatherers don't invest in any particular piece of property.
	You know, they make a bow and arrow.
	Why does that take, like an hour?
	I don't know, right?
	But, you know, they don't particularly invest.
	And so the infusion of labor principle doesn't wed them to any particular conception, certainly of land property rights, not investing anything.
	Right, right.
	So I would say that certainly not past a generation down.
	And...
	There would have to be some sort of statute of limitations that would go, you know, maybe you could go one generation.
	You know, like if you steal my painting, maybe my daughter can get it back.
	But not her daughter.
	Because that's going to create, also it's going to create, this is an argument from effect, so I'm not going to say it's perfectly rigorous philosophically, but it will create an enormous legal class of people who rummage around trying to find injustices or even make them up and then take everyone to court all the time.
	Which will create a very backward-looking society where people are looking to cash in on past injustices rather than create value of their own in the present and the future.
	That's true.
	That's very true.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Jake, I talked a lot.
	I'll let you take it from here.
	No, totally.
	I think it's really interesting how you're...
	It seems like the best argument for...
	Against going back and trying to fix past problems is just the absurdity, using the example of, would you care about getting something back that was 500 years ago, for instance, from one of your ancestors 500 years ago?
	Should you care about that?
	It sounds absurd, and I think that's a really good way to frame it, because that's kind of how it is.
	It really is, just like that.
	Yeah.
	I feel like I learned a lot.
	And can you right the wrong without creating a new injustice?
	Oh, in that argument, exactly.
	It's not my daughter's fault that there was slavery.
	Right.
	I mean, so if we say, well, you know, you've got to tax my daughter and give it to the descendants of slaves, well, you've just created a new injustice.
	Because I thought the whole point of slavery was that it was bad because you were taking people's labor without giving them money for it.
	You know, so how do we solve this by taking my daughter's labor without giving her money for it?
	I mean, you know, this is not how we solve problems, it's adding to them.
	No, that's very true.
	I'm very eliminated.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Before I go, I just wanted to thank you specifically for being a guiding force in my life.
	I don't have divorced parents, but my father was very absent in my life, and it left a very big hole in my heart to look for another father figure, and you were perfect for that, to be honest.
	That's really kind.
	To be honest, I never really think of that.
	There's a guy on the internet, he'll say, I love you, Dad, on some of my videos and so on.
	I don't really think of that, but I really, really appreciate that thought, Jake.
	I mean, it's a wonderful thing to do.
	I grew up without a father and the idea that I could provide some value in that context for other people is a beautiful thing to hear and I really, really appreciate it.
	And I hope that you realize I would have treated you the same in this call no matter what you raise.
	So good!
	Content of the character.
	All that kind of good stuff.
	So thanks everyone.
	Thanks Jake.
	A great set of questions.
	And listen, please understand I don't claim to have answered everything in this realm.
	It's just an exploratory conversation with Jake about this topic.
	So please feel free to leave me comments to let me know.
	About all of this stuff.
	These are just my thoughts on it.
	It's far from complete or decisive and certainly not concise.
	So thanks everyone so much.
	Please, please drop by freedomainradio.com slash donate to help out the show.
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