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Aug. 20, 2016 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:07:50

3386 I’m a Red-Pilled Police Wife - Call In Show - August 17th, 2016

Question 1: [2:22] – “I am a red-pilled police wife. My husband patrols a high crime, majority low income black neighborhood in Milwaukee. We live and work in a city that has seen violent crime spike recently, in part due to the Ferguson effect.”“I’ve seen so many parallel stories in the news, and on your show, fearing it could be my family in the headlines at any time. I’m grateful that you’ve taken the time to bring facts to bear that push back against the mainstream media and Blank Lives Matter narrative.”“Many times I feel like a woman without a tribe. On a personal level, how do I reconcile my interest in Philosophy with the reality of my daily life, and my love and duty to support my husband? Do you have any advice on how to weather the storm?”Question 2: [1:18:28] - “As a young black conservative my ideas are not exactly mainstream. Most of my peers are very liberal and most older adults vote blue - no matter what. Your show and the internet in general fostered my desire to become a free thinker. How can I engage my peers in the black community (or leftists in general) to get them to at least question the democratic party, what it stands for and to be more open to moderate or conservative views?”Question 3: [1:52:16] – “I am a student, a Marine Corps veteran, a musician, teacher of music and a conservative that is attending university in a very liberal area. I try to keep an open mind and understand that my opinions are subject to change with new evidence. Given the indoctrination in American universities today, how can someone like me differentiate between an instructor (particularly one I may have a great deal of respect for) pushing a narrative and something I should take under genuine consideration when my views or beliefs are challenged?”Question 4: [2:35:47] – “I am a first generation Ethiopian American, my parents and some family members came to America for a better opportunity like all immigrants. Growing up I would always overhear family discussions about politics in Ethiopia.”“As passionate and sometimes toxic as these discussions get, the arguments were relatively the same. One side of the family is in favor of the current government, the other is not. With the knowledge that I have now listening to shows like yours and many others, it has puzzled me looking back how none of my family members, let alone Ethiopians that I have met in general, have ever argued for a smaller government or a free market economy.”“My family members had to live through communism for a short period time and even the current government that overthrew the communist party is just a Dictatorship disguised as a Democracy. These people have felt and still feel the effects of what a corrupt government can do, and yet all they argue is if the current ruling party should be replaced or not. Why is it so difficult for Ethiopians to understand the importance of a limited government and having a free market?”Freedomain Radio is 100% funded by viewers like you. Please support the show by signing up for a monthly subscription or making a one time donation at: http://www.freedomainradio.com/donate

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Time	Text
	Hello, hello everybody.
	Stefan Molyneux from Freedom Aid Radio.
	I hope you are doing magnificently.
	We had some great callers tonight.
	The first was the wife of a police officer currently facing some of the rioting and challenges in Milwaukee that happened as the result of a police shooting.
	And we had a great conversation about her fears, her hopes, what might happen, and how we can live in a world that we want so much to be different.
	The next caller was a fine young black man who is a conservative and feels like he may not be entirely in conformity with the expectations of his community by not being pro-Democrat.
	And we had a great conversation, a role play, in fact, where I played him and he played a liberal.
	We talked about a variety of ways in which he could respond to various arguments, Uncle Tom-ism and so on, which I thought was interesting and fascinating.
	And then we had not an ex-Marine, as he very clearly told me, but a Marine who now is studying jazz and is in a very liberal, lefty kind of environment.
	And we went through some of his textbook and I guess made a little bit of fun of some of the things that were going on and found ways that he could gain value out of having to conform to leftist expectations in education.
	And that was, I think, a very good conversation.
	And the last caller was a young man from Ethiopia.
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	And really talk about smaller government.
	It's all who's going to be in control of it.
	So we looked into some of the history, some of the tribalism in Ethiopia, some of the economics and some of the other barriers to possibly thinking about smaller government in that neck of the woods.
	So it was a really, really great set of callers.
	Thank you again so much for making all of this possible.
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	All right, well, up first today we have Mary.
	Mary wrote in and said, I'm a red-pilled police wife.
	My husband patrols a high-crime, majority-low-income black neighborhood in Milwaukee.
	We live and work in a city that has seen violent crime spike recently, in part due to the Ferguson effect.
	I've seen so many parallel stories in the news and on your show, fearing it'd be my family in the headlines at any time.
	I'm grateful that you've taken the time to bring facts to bear that push back against the mainstream media and Black Lives Matter narrative.
	Many times I feel like a woman without a tribe.
	On a personal level, how do I reconcile my interest in philosophy with the daily reality of my life and my love and duty to support my husband?
	Do you have any advice on how to weather the storm?
	That's from Mary.
	Well, hello, Mary.
	Hello, Mary.
	How are you doing tonight?
	I'm well, Stefan.
	I'm glad to talk to you.
	I've been wanting to call in for a long time.
	Well, I'm very pleased to chat with you, too, and hopefully we can do something useful.
	When did that old red pill come rolling around, and how was it applied?
	It came around, I'd say, three years ago, and it came in the form of the Peaceful Parenting series.
	I was looking for information, and I found you, and I kind of went digging and kind of went all in.
	So I thank you for that.
	I thank you for that, and hopefully your kids will thank us both.
	And so you did the parenting stuff for a while, and obviously that's great.
	And then where did it go from there?
	In terms of kind of redpilling?
	Or are you mean like...
	Well, yeah.
	I mean, because you're not calling it about parenting.
	You're calling it about sort of larger issues.
	The woman without a tribe and all of that.
	And of course, what your husband does and the situation that he's in.
	So it obviously went beyond just parenting for you.
	Oh, yeah.
	I've listened to your shows on non-aggression principle and...
	Oh my gosh.
	And it's caused a lot of cognitive distance for me and a lot of internal conflict.
	So it's kind of been heavy on my mind a lot that I can't really have all my principles that I believe in You know, in my life consistently.
	I know you've talked about that in the past, kind of that struggle.
	So that was part of my question as well, but I'm not sure if you want to go on that first, but I can add something to the conversation about the stuff going in Milwaukee as well.
	So whatever you'd like to do.
	It is your conversation, Mary.
	I am any way the wind blows as far as what you want to chat about.
	Okay, yeah.
	I mean, it's been...
	I was thinking about calling into the show and then my city started to...
	So I basically emailed Mike and put my question together finally and the last few days have been a real blur.
	So I kind of wrote down all my thoughts and I don't know if it'd be better for me to kind of read them or kind of my experience the last few days or go through a conversation.
	What would you like to do?
	I'm curious to know, because the thoughts that you wrote down were the ones more immediate to the circumstances, so if you'd like to share those, I'd be happy to hear.
	Which thoughts?
	I'm sorry.
	You said that you wrote some of your thoughts down about what's been happening in Milwaukee.
	Okay, we can get that out of the way, sure.
	Okay, we can get to the other personal question.
	Okay, so Saturday night, I'll just read off this, what I wrote down here.
	So, Saturday night, when the major riots and fires happened, I had gone to bed early.
	Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.
	However, all the fires and looting went down within a few minutes' drive, only a couple miles from my home.
	Our neighborhood itself is solidly middle-class, mostly white, and safe by most urban standards.
	When we do see property crime, like a stolen car or a break-in, it's mostly, more often than not, it's a young Black youth from a neighboring community.
	And unfortunately because our city is so segregated it's kind of easy to tell when that kind of thing happens.
	And so Sunday, actually, when night fell, nobody knew what was going to happen or how far riots would spread.
	Fights of more violence made the news from an alderman and a sister of the man who was killed by police.
	We were under a state of emergency as the city and National Guard was called up.
	Police were called in early to work shifts and extended indefinitely and instructed to prepare their riot gear.
	I couldn't escape a sense of dread and quiet as the night fell.
	Outside my window, the streets were empty.
	They're normally alive with people walking their dogs or jogging.
	Occasionally I could hear a news helicopter in the distance or overhead, but not much else.
	I checked on Periscope and found a few live streams of what was happening.
	One live stream was from behind the police line.
	From, I think, Tim Pool.
	You can look him up.
	And another in front of the difference.
	The difference was remarkable to me.
	Behind the police line, the atmosphere was tense and serious.
	And I watched as the tactical unit extracted a gunshot victim from the street.
	In contrast, the live stream in front of the police, I saw people alternate between laughing, joking, screaming at the cops, playing loud music, etc.
	It seemed like kind of a big joke.
	Another live Periscope note was from a vehicle where several young black men bragged about how they had been the first to coin the term kill-walkie.
	I found the whole scene disturbing, yet reassuring that maybe violence would not get out of control for a second night in a row.
	Then came a text from my husband around 11 o'clock at night.
	It read, go to your parents, 100 plus and moving towards, insert street name here, they're sending a Bearcat unit.
	Oh, what's that?
	It's like an armored vehicle, just like a defense vehicle.
	Right.
	My body went cold, and I suddenly shifted into fight or flight mode.
	My mind raced, is this real?
	Do I really have to grab my sleeping child and flee?
	But after a few minutes talking it over with my husband on the phone, he determined it sounded, you know, from radio and stuff like that, it sounded much more like a smaller contained protest and looting.
	Yet it was much closer to home than the main protests from the other night.
	I spent the rest of the night coming off an adrenaline high with an AR-15 propped up to the nightstand.
	The past few days have left me jumpy, distracted, and with a heavy heart.
	I think many people here feel the same way, dismayed and angry about what has happened in our own backyard.
	It's not a great feeling having your hometown described as a hellscape on national news.
	Since then, I've seen reports of prayer circles and continued cleanup by residents in the neighborhood directly affected, which is reassuring.
	And during Trump's speech in Milwaukee last night, he spoke directly to them.
	I agree with Trump that they deserve safety and security more than anyone.
	No one can truly achieve anything if their basic need for safety and security aren't being met.
	I wanted to share that with you because it's kind of parallel to some of the things you've been talking about as well.
	I thought it was relevant to the conversation.
	Yes, I appreciate that.
	And it sticks with you, right?
	I mean, when this kind of cortisol spike, this fight-or-flight spike happens, it takes a while for it to sort of soothe back down, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	It felt like I had a lead in my chest all week.
	It's just been kind of a...
	Unreal feeling.
	It's just been kind of a blur, like I said.
	So it kind of gives you a background to how I'm feeling right now for the conversation.
	So it's been very difficult this past few days.
	How's your husband doing?
	He's better than I am.
	He's a little more calm under pressure, and he kind of can see the bigger picture because he's somewhat involved in the communications and everything that goes on.
	So he's kind of calm about it.
	He's upset about what's happened, but he's not nearly as affected, I guess, as I am.
	And how are things now?
	I mean, in the neighborhood or outside the neighborhood?
	It seems better.
	It seems like things have kind of gone back to normal, but I think a lot of people are still shaken up.
	I used to drive closer to that on a commute, and I'm not going anywhere near there anymore, so it's kind of changed...
	My behavior in that way, I'm sure a lot of other people will have the same changes in behavior as well.
	So, yeah, it's not been, it's been a very, very dark mood around here lately.
	Yeah, I mean, it is a very strange thing from outside.
	And of course, I'm further outside, much further outside than you are, Mary.
	But it is a strange thing that such dominoes should fall.
	That a black cop should shoot a black criminal and black people should burn down their own neighborhood in protest.
	Oh yeah.
	That's so counterintuitive.
	I don't even know what that means.
	I don't know how to process that in any rational context.
	No, it's not rational.
	And I think that I wrote my question probably a couple days or a week before this happened.
	And I mentioned like, you know, there's this tension in the air.
	It feels like, you know, even just from my perspective, like these news stories could be us at any moment.
	And, you know, lo and behold, kind of is.
	So it's kind of, it was kind of there under the surface.
	And I think they're just looking for an excuse to kind of get angry and blow off steam.
	So I don't think it had anything to do with it.
	It's not rational at all.
	It's an emotional reaction.
	No, and I remember reading, I think it was a lawyer's perspective, and the lawyer would be down at the courthouse and someone, and these are all very big generalizations, so I understand they're not universally applicable, but he was pointing out, he was saying, look, there's all races down at the courthouse.
	And he said, you know, the whites are kind of subdued and quiet, the Hispanics are kind of loud, but he said the blacks, they're calling to each other, they're cheering, there's a fundamental not taking it seriously kind of thing that occurs in that context or that environment.
	And, you know, this is a big difference, cultural or biological, I don't know, there's a big difference in that environment that The sort of shame or the self-attack or whatever it is that whites or Asians might experience in running afoul of the law doesn't seem to be equally distributed among various ethnicities, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, it does, unfortunately.
	I think it's kind of a cultural...
	I don't even know.
	I think not taking it seriously, that's a better way of putting it than a joke that I said, but...
	It's almost like it's so common.
	Some people are just in and out all the time.
	They don't even flinch.
	If I got a speeding ticket, I'd be ashamed for weeks.
	It's a totally different mindset.
	I don't know.
	Just being used to it, I guess.
	I sort of get the feeling...
	And it's just a feeling.
	There's some evidence for it, but I wanted to know what you thought about this, if it struck your mind at all, Mary.
	But I sort of get this feeling that we're entering into this challenging time in society where what's happening is those who are causing the most trouble are getting their way.
	And those who are causing the least trouble Are getting preyed upon, are getting attacked.
	And I watched this video, I think it was a German woman who posted it, about her son got beaten up by some refugees, some migrants, and the husband went out to try and deal with it, and the husband ended up getting arrested.
	And, you know, in conjunction with watching the Australian 60 Minutes team trying to get into Little Mogadishu, Somewhere, I can't remember where in Europe.
	And the policeman's saying, well, we're not going in there because it's really, you know, they'll throw bricks at us.
	It's, you know, they won't listen and so on.
	It's like, okay, so they, you know, that group gets to be sort of lawless.
	But the Germans who respect rules and obey authority, they're the ones who are getting arrested.
	And they're the ones who are getting sanctioned.
	And...
	It sort of feels there's that going on across the West, that we've hit this sort of tipping point where people who obey the law or who respect the law or are afraid of the law or who process the negative consequences of the law or brushes with the law,
	well, they're the ones that the law is being deployed against the most, whereas the people who don't take the law seriously or who don't have any particular respect for the law, well, They're willing to cause more trouble.
	And, you know, the old squeaky wheel gets the grease.
	Society is saying, well, it's the law-abiding citizens who are causing the least trouble.
	So if we're going to apply the law, let's apply it to them because it's less risky and they're more likely to comply.
	They're more likely to be afraid.
	And the people who don't respect the law, we're just going to kind of work around that because that's more trouble than it's worth.
	Right.
	Yeah, I could see that from a practical standpoint that I mean, even during kind of the protests, the second night here, the first and second night of the riots, like, they didn't really make many arrests.
	They're just kind of letting them, you know, do their thing, run their course, contain them, but not, you know, make any arrests, kind of that kind of thing, just letting it run its course.
	And I don't think that would fly anywhere else for very long.
	So it's just kind of a strange thing to see.
	I agree.
	It's not right.
	Yeah, and this, I mean, this, you know, we say we've got to be multicultural and so on.
	It's like, okay, but let's not be balkanized, right?
	Let's have multiculturalism, but we can't have different rules applied to different groups.
	Exactly.
	Right?
	So like Dorian Johnson, who created this false narrative of Black Lives Matter.
	I mean, the guy's comments about, you know, Michael Brown being shot execution style in the back of the head while I got my hands up, don't shoot, pleading for his life.
	That created a narrative that got a lot of people hurt and got a lot of property damaged.
	And he lied to the cops.
	Anything about that?
	In the Michael Brown case, it turned out that a lot of the witnesses lied to the cops about what happened.
	Any prosecutions?
	Right, Michael Brown's stepfather calling out for a riot.
	Any charges?
	I don't know what's going to go on with the Freddie Gray.
	I mean, I'm sure you've followed that with a lump in your throat and ice in your heart that these three, I guess, three blacks, three non-blacks, the six officers who were accused of contributing to his death, I think they've all been acquitted now.
	And, you know, as I talked about before, Mallard and Mosby, there seems to be some evidence of the withholding of exculpatory evidence from the defense and Brady violations and stuff like that.
	What's going to happen there?
	Right.
	Nothing.
	And even when the death is like, there's still payoffs to the family.
	Yeah.
	And so we've got these different rules.
	Right.
	For different groups.
	And it's the groups that seem to behave the worst who get off the most.
	And I don't know if it's because, you know, if...
	And when you see these, you know, these kids or these adults who get shot, and you see the rap sheet just goes on and on and on and on and on.
	It's like there's this revolving door.
	What is the point of that?
	Ah, these charges were dropped, and then this happened, and then he was set free, and then he was put on parole, and then he was back in, and then he was out again.
	And it's like, are they just trying to keep the numbers down?
	Because America is very sensitive about looking racist, either internally or to the world?
	I mean, it just seems like there's very different rules in very different contexts of very different groups.
	And that, to me, seems like you don't have a country.
	Yeah, I totally agree.
	It's becoming that way more and more.
	And even here, the sister of the man who was shot by the police, she's saying, don't burn down our community, take that shit to the suburbs, burn that shit down.
	Oh yeah, and the news cut her off, right?
	Oh yeah, they totally did.
	I watched, I think Cernovich had a periscope on that yesterday.
	He covered that as well.
	Yeah.
	Mike, you've got more information on that, Mike, if you want.
	I don't want to try and recreate that from what we talked about earlier today.
	If you could look it up and just join us when you've got it, because that was...
	That seemed like George Zimmerman-style editing that occurred.
	And can you imagine that if some white person shouted something racist, that they would edit that out?
	Imagine if someone at a Donald Trump rally, I don't think they ever would, but if they did shout something racist, can you imagine CNN editing the racist part out or the aggressive part out?
	That wouldn't happen.
	They'd just be playing that on an endless loop, like somebody's calling your cell phone and that's your ringtone.
	Alright, so what happened is they got her saying, don't bring the violence here.
	Cut.
	She continued and said, burning down shit ain't gonna help nothing.
	Y'all burning down shit we need in our community.
	Take that shit to the suburbs.
	Burn that shit down.
	We need our shit.
	We need our weaves.
	I don't wear it, but we need it.
	Can't make that up.
	Oh my god.
	I don't, I don't, okay, obviously there's a lot of shit in the language, and you know, shit is one of these, I guess it's like a Swiss army knife, it's a multi-purpose word.
	Right.
	But where does she go, how does she go from stuff to weaves?
	I don't, I mean, I know weaves can be a pretty important part of certain communities.
	Well, they're looting weave stores.
	Yeah, one of the beauty salons is the ones that was hit.
	There was a, there were some photos of people walking out with giant handfuls of what appeared to be weaves.
	Yes, that's true.
	Huh.
	Did that help with the oppression from Whitey to take the weaves?
	I mean, is that, I don't know.
	What can you say?
	And wasn't there one a while back ago, I remember seeing the video of people, it was a bunch of blacks and maybe some others too, but they were looting this mall.
	They had helicopter footage, and even in Ferguson, they had video footage of people looting and so on.
	Was that ever followed up?
	Did people get a bunch of arrests?
	Probably not.
	More trouble than it's worth, unfortunately.
	Well, it is.
	Of course, it is...
	It is avoiding trouble in the here and now, but basically there is, okay, free pass!
	No rules for you!
	It's like, okay, well, then what does it mean for there to be a law?
	Well, the law is there for those who already respect it.
	In other words, the law is there for those least likely to break it.
	But the law is not there for those most likely to break it.
	And of course, this provides entirely the wrong signals to the kids in that community, too.
	Oh yeah, absolutely.
	Go steal stuff.
	There are no repercussions.
	Well, and of course, if you don't need to economically join your society, right, then you don't need, like, if you're going to stay, you know, on welfare or on public assistance or public housing or SNAP or food stamps, if you're going to stay on, what does it matter if you have a record?
	It's only if you want to get into the professions or only if you want to hit the middle class.
	That's when it matters.
	And this is why when you sort of seal people off in this cyst of welfare, you create this kind of lawlessness because the incentive to obey the law goes down if you get money regardless of your record.
	Right.
	Yeah, I guess I kind of...
	Sorry, I lost where I was.
	We were just talking about how people who are not obeying the law, I mean, there's a lot of hatred for the cops in that community, and I... I don't know.
	Kind of going back to my original question as well, kind of tying that in, there's that element, and then there's I've been kind of listening to Libertarian and other shows like yours that also hate cops a lot, a lot of the people who are on the message boards and stuff like that.
	And then I have kind of a group of friends who are also other police-wise, other cops who are very pro-police and anti- It would be anti-anarchy, all that other stuff.
	So it's kind of a weird place to be, seeing all these different groups fighting each other, and I kind of have a foot in kind of each area, if you know what I mean.
	Not putting that as eloquently as I thought, but does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Now, of course, libertarians who use drugs, illegal drugs, they have a challenging or complicated relationship with the cops, right?
	There's a lot of volatility towards cops in certain areas of the libertarian community because, you know, they live in that concern about being...
	Being arrested for it and so on, right?
	So there's a challenging relationship with the cops.
	And, you know, I have a complicated relationship with the police as well.
	I mean, I think a lot of what they do is necessary, but my issue is not with the police, but more with the intellectuals who are justifying all of this kind of stuff that the police probably don't really want to do that much.
	Yeah, so 2012, 41.6% of African Americans are getting means-tested benefits each month.
	36% of Hispanics of any race received government assistance and 13% of whites.
	And that's not good.
	And in certain neighborhoods, I've read that 70 to 80% of the families are getting welfare.
	Yeah, I don't know the numbers are for our city, but I know it's higher probably the national average from what I've heard.
	Well, you guys won for single parenthood, right?
	I think so.
	I think we win for bad schools, we win for single motherhood, we're starting to win for crime.
	Yeah, all these things are adding up.
	What is your tie to the community?
	Well, I grew up here.
	I've been here my whole life and there's a lot to love about where I live.
	Like I said, it's kind of an isolated area and it's not a bedroom community.
	It's like a real neighborhood.
	People talk to each other.
	I know all my neighbors.
	We talk over the fence.
	We look after each other.
	There's community life.
	There's book clubs.
	There's all these great things that are Are wonderful, but this whole safety and security thing, it undermines all of that, and it makes it not worth it sometimes.
	I've got to look at the kind of columns and say, here are the good, here are the bad, and there's this one really big bad that might overthrow everything, which I think a lot of other people are feeling as well.
	I'm not the only one.
	Right.
	Sorry, just 82% of black households with children receive welfare.
	Wow.
	76.4 for Hispanics.
	Wow.
	That's a lot.
	That is a lot.
	That's a lot.
	That is a lot.
	And it's really tragic.
	And it allows, of course, you know, that this welfare and immigration, of course, really tied together because if there wasn't welfare, then mass immigration would be driving down the only wages that a lot of lower income communities, which would be disproportionately black and Hispanic, be driving down their wages which would be disproportionately black and Hispanic, be driving down their wages and they'd get And they'd vote for restrictions on immigration in order to keep their wages up.
	But because there's welfare, if you end up not working, you can go on welfare.
	So there's less pushback against immigration, both legal and illegal, of low skilled workers who are displacing the locals.
	So it's all this big, complicated, messy knot that I guess only a mathematical sword will undo at some point.
	So I guess I'll ask to another question.
	Did you watch Trump's rally last night?
	He said similar things about law and order before, but he was talking directly to kind of the African American community.
	He made it kind of the first 10 minutes of his speech yesterday or his rally here.
	But I wonder if that'll convince anybody.
	I don't know if it's because the Democrats are offering, you know, the free stuff, but he's kind of offering another incentive, which is safety and security.
	I don't know how he's going to do that, but I just think it's interesting.
	Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here, Mary.
	I'm going to say that it will appeal to certain sections of the Black community.
	And not others.
	It will appeal to young men who want to have a life different than that of their peers or their fathers.
	But, you know, the woman who's got four kids by three different guys, none of whom are living with her.
	How's that?
	You know, more job opportunities!
	Well, it is a challenge, right?
	Right.
	Yeah, it's more of an immediate incentive versus kind of a, it's more of an abstract thing, I guess.
	No, I mean, the reality is, and I firmly believe human beings are incredibly adaptable.
	And, you know, if welfare would end tomorrow, there'd be a week or two of chaos, and then everything would be sorted out.
	Because people would pitch in, they'd help, and the women who, you know, would realize, you know, maybe the women can't keep a man around because they're really nasty and bad-tempered.
	Well, they'd say, okay, well, for the sake of my kids, I'm going to bite my tongue and be a much more pleasant person to be around so that a man wants to live with me and pay my bills.
	Right.
	They would just adapt.
	And human beings, you know, in the 90s, the welfare was cut pretty significantly.
	And entire departments were cut in Canada because we were paying like a third of a dollar on interest payments on the national debt.
	And did society fall apart?
	Did Newfoundland fall into the sea?
	No.
	People were just like, well, okay, well...
	It was fun while it lasted.
	Because I have faith in the folks.
	Faith in the folks!
	That's my folk song.
	I have faith in the folks.
	People, you know, all the things that have been scattered by the welfare state, sort of mutual interdependence and charity and friendly societies and knocking on your neighbor's door to find out if they're okay and parents, even single parents learning enough about their neighbors so that neighbors are available to babysit so that people can go out and do something productive with some portion of their day or whatever.
	I mean, all of that would simply return.
	It's not like this completely vanished, you know?
	I mean, you had generations of aristocracy who in various European upheavals, they've been aristocrats for like a thousand years sometimes.
	And then their aristocracy ended and they just...
	Either they or their kids just went and got jobs.
	That's thousands of years of flogging peasants and banging the newlyweds.
	I have real faith, real belief, and it's not just faith, it's real belief that all of the disaster scenarios that are portrayed, but if welfare ends, there'll be all this terrible stuff that's going on and so on.
	No, I mean, it'll be chaos.
	You know, this is Harry Brown talked about this, the late Harry Brown talked about this with regards to public school.
	Yeah, it'll be terrible for about a week.
	You know, if public school ends, it'll be really chaotic for about a week and then everyone's going to step in and sort it out and things will be much better thereby.
	So, you know, we're only ever a week or two away from most of this stuff resolving itself.
	I mean, let me sort of give you one last example just so, because it's a startling thesis, you know, for a lot of people to hear.
	You know, it's quite a startling thesis.
	And so, When in the Second World War, millions and millions and millions of men came home traumatized from war and they were all absorbed into the labor force almost immediately and put to productive uses.
	There were these big debates going on in the American government.
	Oh, what kind of assistance do we need to give all these guys who are coming home from war and this and that and the other.
	The same thing happened with the previous wars, First World War and so on.
	And, you know, millions of men turned up traumatized looking for work and boom!
	We had this massive economy, massive growth in the economy in one of the wealthiest periods in Western history.
	Human beings are incredibly adaptable.
	And of course, you know, if we say, well, it's a black-white thing, okay, well, a lot of blacks were out in the workforce.
	They came back and they got jobs and it all worked out.
	And...
	I got to think, you know, five years or a couple of years at least for Americans of, you know, kill or be killed might leave people a little less functional than welfare, the welfare state.
	So I'm very confident that there'd be a lot of caterwauling and then everything would just be sorted out pretty quickly.
	And everyone would look back and say, what were we so scared of?
	Yeah, I think there's some truth to that.
	I mean, in a way, kind of what happened on Saturday was part of my worst nightmare because it was so close.
	And I mean, when the worst happened, I was asleep.
	I didn't even know it.
	But I feel like, yeah, if the government runs out of money or they reduce welfare payments, whatever happens, I'd be all for that.
	I just...
	I think Saturday was kind of a preview of that.
	And I just hope it doesn't become another...
	We don't have a bunch of Detroits.
	I hope things do settle out, but I don't know.
	It's also scary because...
	I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mary, but hopefully this will give you some comfort.
	It's a different situation because...
	Saturday happened because there's still money, because there's still appeasement, right?
	All of these activities happen because it works or they work, right?
	Right.
	Whereas if the government's genuinely out of money or if there's this general fundamental thing like this was a really bad idea, we've got to stop this before it gets any worse, if people are resolute in their pushback, I can guarantee you that this kind of stuff won't happen.
	I hope not.
	I hope not, because my neighborhood is going to be the first to go.
	If it does.
	Sorry to laugh, but I mean, yeah, I agree.
	I hope that's true.
	How are your kids doing with all this, Mary?
	My little boy is still young.
	He doesn't really know.
	I mean, he can kind of sense that I am stressed and distracted the last couple of days, but he's too young to know what's going on.
	And I'd like to move if things are still like this before he gets old enough to really understand.
	I don't want him growing up having to look over his shoulder like that.
	That's not what I want for him.
	So we'll have to see how it goes.
	Yeah, I mean, you know, this sort of question of white flight and Asian flight and so on from troublesome neighborhoods, you know, I get some arguments which say, well, at some point, you know, where are you going to go?
	But at the same time, I don't see how any individuals can solve these problems at the moment.
	You can't solve this problem of terrible government policies leading to highly dysfunctional neighborhoods and bad education and the welfare state leading to 84% single motherhood or kids being born out of wedlock among blacks in Milwaukee.
	You can hand out pamphlets and say, hey, it'd be great if you got married.
	Why don't you set up your own homeschooling?
	I don't know the degree to which those things can really work.
	Plus, you know, you've got kids of your own and so on.
	So I'm sort of ambivalent about it.
	And I don't have any good answers, other than at some point, the problem will have to be dealt with.
	But I think the problem is going to be dealt with, not ideologically, but as I said, mathematically.
	Government's just going to run out of money.
	And then those of us who've been saying what a terrible thing it is all along, hopefully we'll have some credibility in whatever comes next.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And your husband...
	Yes.
	Is he enjoying his work?
	He is.
	Tough question, I know.
	I mean, how do you even...
	You know what I mean?
	He is despite everything.
	He finds purpose in it, which I find hard to relate to sometimes because I see the after effects of what he's going through and what he's been through.
	And I have to ask him a lot, like, is it worth it?
	Do you still want to do this?
	Like, we can do something else.
	Like, let's keep revisiting this topic.
	But I feel like at a certain point, I have to put that to bed because it's I can't keep nagging him, basically, like, are you okay?
	Are you okay?
	Like, all the time, you know, this constant question up in the air.
	So, he does pretty well.
	He's seen a lot more than probably most in their whole career.
	So, yeah, I feel like we've kind of seen the worst already.
	And It does have a toll on him, but day to day he still finds purpose and enjoys it.
	So I'm kind of stuck.
	Yeah.
	Well, that was eloquent of me.
	Let me say that again.
	Yeah.
	There we go.
	I was just thinking while you were talking, Mary, about just...
	I mean, I feel, and maybe too much, I feel this responsibility, you know, like I have this fairly unique ability to get ideas out into the mainstream and to get people thinking and I have this huge audience and I have a big effect and so I sort of feel, okay, well, let's say I just wake up tomorrow and don't want to do it.
	You know, I'm going to become a mime or something, right?
	I mean, I sort of feel this, okay, well then who's going to do it?
	And I sort of feel if you have the ability, you have some responsibility.
	And that's pretty abstract for me.
	You know, it's great when people like you call in and say, oh, you changed my mind on parenting.
	I did change my mind on parenting or something.
	Yeah, I wasn't a parent before.
	But peaceful parenting, I just needed to learn how to do the opposite.
	So, you know, there's a lot and I see ripple effects that I have in political discussions.
	And, you know, we've got quite a network here.
	We don't really talk about it, but we've got quite a network of people who know What it is that we're doing and are aware of the arguments and praises and criticisms that I'm putting out.
	And we hear very much through the back channels the insidious spider finger fog octopus through the looking glass reach that we have in the world.
	So it's hard to walk away from that.
	It's hard to walk away from that because if you have ability and the need is great, I think you have a responsibility.
	You know, a doctor in the time of plague, as I've talked about before.
	Now, that's very abstract for me.
	The degree to which it's visceral for your husband, I can't even imagine.
	Because if he says, okay, well, let's say I walk away.
	You know, I'm going to go patrol Maybury and try and find elderly jaywalkers and help them across the road or something.
	I think that he's got to think, if he pulls himself out of that community, what's going to happen in that community?
	Who's going to replace him?
	What are they going to be like?
	And if he feels like he's holding back a dam of blood, and he walks away and it crumbles, I could see that being a difficult thing to walk away from.
	Oh yeah, absolutely.
	I think that's definitely a part of it for him.
	He does feel like he's making a difference despite kind of the flood of crime, if you will, violence.
	He does get feedback from people who he has interacted with, come back later and thank him or talk to him and even, well, I lost my train of thought. I lost my train of thought.
	He deals with people very much on a personal level.
	It's not even just enforcing laws.
	It's kind of, in a way, social work and counseling.
	He becomes kind of a part of someone's story, in a way.
	He tries to make, I guess, a positive impression.
	I don't know the other way to put it.
	I know that's the way he sees it.
	I know that's not all cops.
	He's kind of exceptional in that way.
	He feels like he's making a difference every day, and that's hard to argue with.
	Yeah, look, he's married to you.
	You listen to me.
	So, I'm going to assume he's not run-of-the-mill Ken.
	So, yeah, I totally get that, and I respect.
	Obviously, he is making a difference, and if he's a good cop who helps people, and helps keep them safe from the bad people, not to get overly technical, I feel like I'm reading some sort of Kid's story about good and evil, but he's making a positive difference, and it's important.
	And he can't know for sure or rely on the fact that whoever's going to replace him is going to be as good or as committed or as gentle or as whatever the virtues that he brings to the job.
	So it is a tough call.
	And there is this basic reality that wherever the higher IQ, more functional ethnicities go...
	ethnicities follow, complaining about racism.
	You know, like white people move away, Asians move away, and then Hispanics and blacks want to move to where they are again.
	Because apparently racism is so terrible, you just, you really need to check it's still there and see it up close and so on.
	And it is because people don't understand race and IQ and they don't understand the dysfunction of the welfare state.
	They don't understand this process, which is that because everyone's being told that everyone's equal, there's no biological differences, no cultural differences that have any effect on life choices or anything like that.
	So everyone's the same.
	So where whites and Asians go, there are pretty good neighborhoods.
	Pretty peaceful, pretty well-tended, pretty nice.
	And then other minorities go to those neighborhoods and say, wow, this is fantastic.
	They're hoarding it from us.
	They're keeping it from us.
	Or they stole it from us.
	Or whatever it is.
	We want what's over here with the whites and Asians and the Jews.
	We want that.
	And so then they try to get it and it doesn't work out for welfare plus IQ plus culture plus whatever reasons we've talked about a million times before.
	And if you look at Detroit, Detroit was, you know, largely white and the richest city in America and, you know, and so blacks move in and then it's like now it's not.
	Yeah.
	This is the great challenge.
	So the white flight thing is like at some point, right?
	I mean, we're going to have to actually deal with some facts about race, IQ, biology, brain volume.
	And we're just going to have to deal with these facts because the longer everyone says everyone's the same, then the cycle is just going to repeat itself.
	That, you know, the whites, the Asians, the Jews, the higher IQ groups are going to build these relatively good, decent, productive, functional cities and neighborhoods and countries and environments.
	Then other groups are going to move in.
	And the whites are going to move out, you know, because it doesn't work that way.
	And it used to work better before the welfare state, but the welfare state has made it much, much, much worse, as has the war on drugs, as has a variety of other factors.
	So, yeah, I... Running away is only postponing the problem and in a way making it worse.
	But at the same time, staying is, you know, you certainly wouldn't want to stay and put your kids at risk or yourself at risk, your husband and so on, and you can't change it directly anyway because it's based on counterfeit money and biological obfuscation.
	So it's challenging.
	It definitely is.
	I don't want to move.
	I like it here.
	We put down roots, but yeah, we have to deal with it eventually.
	We'll have to see what happens in that case, but I just want to touch on something you said earlier about him wondering who will replace him if he goes elsewhere, and I've actually wondered that myself, and I... I have to actually wonder what kind of effect, like all this Black Lives Matter and Ferguson effect, what's that having on kind of the new recruits?
	Like who, is that going to change?
	Who is signing up to become a police officer, you know, for the worse?
	Yes.
	Because, yeah, it might have the exact effect that people are complaining about.
	It might keep the kind of smarter, more compassionate people away.
	I wouldn't want to become a police officer if this was like it was when we started.
	It was totally different.
	So, it's totally changed.
	Look.
	Look!
	Sorry.
	I didn't get it.
	Ordered all this information down your throat.
	Sorry about that.
	Look, Mary!
	The reality is, it's tough being a police officer, obviously.
	It's not the most dangerous profession, strangely enough, but it is definitely a risky profession at times.
	So it's one thing if you're facing the criminals, but you have the support of the community, that is one thing.
	And I think that's what makes the job better.
	Not just bearable, but a plus.
	If you're considered to be heroic, if people are grateful, if everyone except the criminals is happy that you're there, and if you have the back, if the media has your back, that is really, really important.
	I mean, compare the media's view of cops now, particularly white cops in America, compared to the media's view of soldiers in World War II. You know, the soldiers in World War II, after fighting the Japanese and fighting the Germans and pretending to fight the Italians who are running away, they were out-and-out heroes.
	Fighting soldiers in uniform, you know, they were just out-and-out heroes.
	They were portrayed positively.
	Everyone had their back, and they, you know, were very heroic and so on.
	Now, of course, compare that to, you know, the baby killer stuff that happened in Vietnam, and it's a very different kind of situation.
	And You know, putting myself in the mentality of a cop, it would be something like this.
	Well, there are the bad guys who want to do me harm.
	There are the people who call me into that neighborhood who are happy that I'm there.
	You know, like people get upset about Bill Clinton's expansion.
	I think it was a minimum sentencing during the crack epidemic in the 90s.
	But it was black community leaders who were desperate for the government to do something because crack was just destroying neighborhood block by block by block.
	It was like this neutron bomb that was going off and shattering everything.
	And Heather McDonald has got a great book called The War on Cops.
	We interviewed her recently and again, highly, highly recommend it.
	So for a cop, you go, okay, the criminals I get, they want me harmed, we're sort of the enemies, and I get that, right?
	But what about everyone else in society?
	Well, if you have a confrontation with a criminal, of course, it could be the cop doing something wrong, and it, you know, that all needs to be investigated.
	I'm obviously keen on that, like everyone.
	But how is it going to be a fair process?
	How is it going to be played out?
	And of course, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that every single cop in a confrontation with a black suspect is incredibly aware of the danger of that situation.
	Even if he goes by the book, even if he does everything right, it doesn't matter.
	You know, it might not matter.
	If the media just happens to fasten onto that one, his life may be destroyed.
	I mean, I remember reading about some, I think it was a detective, who submitted to a beatdown from a suspect rather than try to use force to arrest him.
	You know, maybe he'll just tire out.
	But rather than use force to arrest him, he just submitted to a beatdown because he basically said, well, if I use force and it goes wrong and the media gets, you know, my life, I'd rather take the beatdown now than, you know, spend the next three years going through a murder trial or, you know, say this guy has a weak heart and I don't even know about it.
	And so...
	You know, it's the old multi-front war.
	Most competent militaries can fight a one-front war.
	A few can do two fronts, very few can do three, and I can't think of anybody who'd do a four-front war.
	And so for cops, it used to be that the media would have your back, and the community would have your back and be grateful that you were there, and the bad guys would be your enemies.
	But you had more allies than enemies.
	And I don't think that's the case for cops in America.
	And now, after Milwaukee, it's not even the case for black cops in America.
	Black cop shot, right?
	There's still riots, right?
	Because...
	And the fact...
	Let's go back to that in a sec.
	So how many fronts can you fight on as a cop?
	And if you are going to be sacrificed to politically correct...
	Or politically motivated prosecution, of which there's been a wide variety, I would believe, or I believe, in American jurisprudence recently.
	If you're going to be subjected to potentially politically motivated malicious prosecution and so on, and if it's going to be an unfair process, and even if you get acquitted, what about Darren Wilson, who shot Michael Brown?
	Michael Slager?
	Shot Walter Scott.
	We don't know what's going to happen with Michael Slager.
	Darren Wilson was acquitted.
	As was George Zimmerman.
	Well, do they get to go back to their lives just as they were?
	They do not.
	And so I think that for cops, we know now from the Ferguson effect that when society, well, I shouldn't say society, when the media becomes an enemy of the police, Then criminal activity escalates, particularly in the most vulnerable and dysfunctional neighborhoods.
	That seems fairly the Ferguson effect of increased crime as the result of crippled policing as the result of all of this, the politicians, the media, sometimes even the police's own departments going against the cops because they're afraid of riots.
	And it's not because they're afraid of riots.
	Because I think Giuliani pointed out riots are pretty easy to quell.
	You just go and arrest a whole bunch of people, you know, and just use force to quell the riots and people go home.
	But because that has been taken off the table, I think largely as a result of, you know, Obama and the media and, you know, all of this sort of stuff.
	The quell the riot situation has diminished, which means that because you can't stop a riot, you now have to prevent a riot.
	And the way to prevent a riot is to attack the cops whose behavior is even remotely questionable.
	And the media, of course, will pump that up until that occurs.
	And I think for a cop, you know, who's your friend?
	It's okay to have the enemy who's the criminal.
	You understand that you know that going in.
	But if then the politicians and maybe even your own internal prosecutors or reviewers and the media and who knows, right?
	If all of these groups also become your enemy, who remains who has got your back and who would want to be in that situation where you're fighting a forefront war that could cost you everything?
	Yeah, well, I mean, nowadays, who has their back?
	It's other cops, other police families, the thin blue line, if you will call it that.
	I mean, I'm breaking the code talking to you, Steph.
	I mean, the media has been kind of anti-police, at least here, for a long time.
	Yeah, that's a lot of, as you said, that's a lot of fronts for a war like that.
	And right now, I feel like, you know, on the home front, that, you know, that's kind of a war he has to fight as well, because I'm not in a place where I can I effectively hold these two ideas in my head at the same time.
	I'm struggling.
	I'm struggling with that.
	I'm struggling to listen to your show and accepting the non-aggression principle and wanting to have that throughout my life.
	But yet my husband works for the government and he's a cop and obviously all that stuff.
	I can't keep fighting this war with him, basically.
	It's not been over.
	He knows how I feel this way.
	It's not news to him, and he'll listen to this.
	I need to find a way to resolve it, and I don't know if you have any experience or advice on that.
	Well, but you're still being relatively indirect, Mary, right?
	which is resolve this.
	What is it that you would want ideally?
	What I want ideally is for him to not be a cop anymore, but he's not going to do that.
	Well, hang on, sorry.
	Now, not be a cop, do you mean anywhere?
	Anywhere.
	Anywhere.
	So you don't want to be a cop even if it's relatively secure or benign or traffic tickets and stuff?
	I would be happier with that, but I mean, the sacrifice in my mind is too great.
	The physical danger, holidays, weekends, nights, all these things that are taken for granted by Normal people, I want to take a walk with my family at night.
	I can't do that.
	I'm tired of it.
	I'm tired of this life.
	Adding in philosophy and these new ideas that I'm trying to accept and add into my life doesn't help.
	It's kind of the last straw.
	So I guess, yeah, how do I, how do I be okay with it?
	How do I be okay with him staying in his profession?
	I don't know.
	I'm having trouble forming a coherent sentence.
	No, no, listen, I'm glad for that directness.
	I wasn't sure what you wanted before.
	And I appreciate that directness.
	And...
	As far as how are you okay with it, listen, Mary, we are all making enormous compromises to live in the system that we're in.
	Do you think I am able to follow all of my ideals with a perfectly free conscience and free movement?
	Of course not.
	Of course not.
	And we are all making compromises to do the best that we can in an environment that is not always very conducive or friendly, to put it mildly, to reason, debate, and factual evidence.
	So don't feel alone at all in the gap between what you want and what is.
	Between how you would like to live and how it's possible to live at the moment.
	We all have that gap.
	We all have to face that gap and deal with it.
	And the great temptation is to say that somehow the gap between how my ideals dictate that I live and what is possible for me in the current society, the temptation is to say that that gap It's kind of like a cavity that's got to be filled.
	It's like a flat tire that's got to be fixed.
	It's not.
	It can't be.
	We do not have the power to move society to close that gap.
	Neither do we have the power to change the reasoned arguments that create that high standard of the non-aggression principle.
	I would love to live a life where there was nothing in what I had to do that would ever contribute to violations of the non-aggression principle.
	I would love to live that life.
	I'm just under six feet tall.
	That is 20,000 feet in the air.
	And I can't grow to the sky and I can't pull the sky down to me.
	There is that gap.
	The gap, it's not my fault.
	It's not your fault.
	It's not your husband's fault.
	It's not the fault of the people he's policing.
	That gap exists because of history, and because of inertia, and because of terrible government schools, and because of propagandistic media, and because anybody who admits that gap opens themselves up for attacks of hypocrisy.
	Oh yeah, Steph, do you pay your taxes?
	Right?
	You're using the internet!
	That was invented by the government!
	You know, like, it's just...
	Idiots, right?
	You know, it's like the kid in the seasons, you know, that's all it adds up to.
	So when you say there's a gap between what I want, what I thirst for, what I need, what my children deserve to live in, when there's that gap, we have to stare at that gap.
	We have to say, not my doing, not my fault.
	And if I can close that gap by two feet before I'm dead, I'm a huge fucking hero.
	We all have to live with the gap.
	And it's tortuous.
	And it's supposed to be tortuous because that's what makes us want to close it, right?
	It's supposed to be uncomfortable.
	It's case-elected.
	It's case-elected gap.
	Because we want things to be better.
	We want all the people in the world to have a better life, to have a better start, to have realistic information about their capacities and limitations, to have great parenting, to not have an intrusive state that's shoveling and ordering and pushing them around like they're basically just a bunch of poker chips, which they kind of are when it comes to votes and bribery around the green felt of a casino table.
	So we all want to close that gap.
	Because we don't have to be religious people to die to get into heaven.
	We can actually have heaven in the here and now, but we can't.
	We can picture it.
	We can picture it.
	And I've written extensively about it.
	When I was writing Practical Anarchy, I was in tears sometimes.
	I just so much wanted to live there.
	I feel like somebody in a dungeon.
	And every day there's a little mailbox in the cell door, and every day people, nasty guards with felt on their feet so I can't even hear them move, they come to my cell, my dungeon, the lightless nothing, one little light from a tiny window somewhere up there.
	They come and they open the mail slot and they push through.
	Brochures for Caribbean vacations.
	And I'm sitting there cross-legged, smelly, not cool Socrates beard, but like homeless crazy guy, bug-eyed Marty Feldman style beard.
	And I'm sitting there cross-legged and there are bugs crawling all over my legs and in the tiny little keyhole light coming down from this little skylight in the middle of nowhere, I thumb through these glossy brochures of the white beaches and the crystal clear oceans.
	And the people who are floating on rafts and they look like they're just levitating in a little shadow is the only way you can tell how deep the water is.
	It's so clear and beautiful and there are dolphins jumping in the spray and there's some waiter waiting out with some cool fruity drink that I will feel comfortably masculine enough to sip.
	And I want to just put my head in my little lightless dungeon.
	I want to put my head in that book and push my way through like I'm being born through paper into a better world.
	And it is heartbreaking because when you have the mental machinery to design the blueprint of a world that would be as perfect as it can be for everyone in it, And all that stands between you and that world is the pig ignorance and indoctrinated resistance of just about everyone.
	The walls are people.
	The walls are not walls.
	The walls are people and people's backs who won't turn around and see What could be?
	Where we could be?
	Where we could get to?
	And we could get there tomorrow if people would listen to reason.
	We could get there tomorrow if people would care enough about their children to want it, to want it.
	I mean, we have got this massive, giant indifference to the future, to our children.
	We let them rot away in terrible schools.
	We hit them.
	We borrow against their collateral to bribe elderly people who might get squawkily upset if their benefits get borrowed.
	And we can all see that world, like a woman in a desert with a throat like pecked sand, so thirsty, sees a mirage.
	And the only thing, she knows it's a mirage, but she can't stand the idea that it's a mirage, so she stumbles over the sand anyway.
	So you have a world that you want, Mary.
	I have a world that I want.
	And we meet in that world.
	We meet in this conversation in that world.
	You know, the Caribbean glassy, gorgeous ocean is in the whispering between the cracks of the dungeon.
	And you want it.
	You want it for your children.
	You want it for your neighbors.
	You want it for everyone.
	You want it for the people running and throwing bricks and burning.
	We want that free world for them.
	Because they clearly can't understand how to get it themselves or how to get it in their own personal lives.
	Maybe if the queues from outside, from above are there.
	Maybe if they can't build a candle, we can at least turn on the sun.
	So there's a gap.
	And it's a horrible gap.
	And it's a painful gap.
	And that pain is how we close the gap.
	But we can't close it ourselves.
	We can have conversations like this.
	We can put out the ideas.
	We can be aggressive.
	We can be appeasing.
	We can be affectionate.
	We can be empathetic.
	We can be stern.
	We can ostracize.
	We can hold close.
	We can do everything that we can in the dance to lure this frightened bird of the future into our hand.
	And we can't reach out.
	It's like a bird.
	You want to catch that bird.
	The hope.
	Hope is the thing with feathers, as they say, right?
	You want to catch that?
	You can't reach up and get it because the damn thing can fly.
	You've got to find some way to get it into your hand, and it's maddening.
	The bird sometimes flies by or flashes by like a comet, like a thought.
	And we have to try and get this feathery freak of freedom to come into our hands so that we can Have the world that we want, the world that is right, the world that is free, the world that is peaceful.
	And when you cry out in your heart, or even aloud, Mary, for the world that you want, you expose a giant pasty white flank of hideous narwhal-style vulnerability.
	Because the moment people say that, the moment people understand that you want something and you're frustrated by not getting it, a lot of people, We'll torture you with its distance and we'll attack you for not living in the world that doesn't exist yet.
	And that's like yelling at people for not taking the train when the train hasn't been invented and won't be for another hundred years.
	And so when you say, well, I'm into the non-aggression principle, I want the non-aggression principle, I want the non-initiation of force at every level, societal, individual, personal, parental, political, everywhere.
	And what do people say?
	Well, your husband's a cop.
	How does that fit?
	Well, you pay taxes.
	You send your kids to government school.
	How does that fit?
	Boom, boom, boom.
	Here's my white pasty flank.
	I put little targets here for the harpoons that your sadistic little empty souls will launch at me.
	So not only do we want that world, do we want that bird, do we want those clouds to somehow fall like rain into our hands, But even to express what we want so often invites attack.
	So we have to keep our greatest dreams like a dirty secret.
	We can't tell people because they'll attack us for the gap.
	Because when we talk to people about the gap, we reveal a greatness of soul that stains them with smallness, right?
	The first people to say, hey, maybe we can end slavery reminded people that they're taking this javelin throw through life completely passively and independently and in a conformist, cowardly way.
	And the size of your gap and your hunger to close it Diminishes other people.
	It turns them from their own solipsistic or narcissistic mental greatness into inconsequential nothingness, like tears in rain, as the saying goes.
	So even to say there's a great world that I want to get to, that I am dying to get to, and that I will live to help achieve this great world of peace and freedom and reason and thought and independence and evidence, I want that world.
	I'm desperate for that world.
	That diminishes other people who have no missions, who have no missions.
	There's an old chieftain, I think it was in Ireland when they first met the Christian missionaries, said this before, and he said, life after death, never really thought about it.
	All we've done is really think that life is like a bird.
	Flying through a house from one window to another, it comes and it goes.
	We don't really think where it comes from or where it goes, it's just flying through the house.
	And if you are mere meaty muscle, and you meet someone who's looking for life after death, you feel diminished, if you believe that that's possible.
	So you have a dream for your children and for the world.
	That is the greatest dream in history, and tragically, you have this dream, Mary, and you have been born into a world that has given up on the spinal fortitude necessary to achieve great things.
	I was just thinking about this today, you know, we used to, the West, we used to challenge We used to uproot these oak trees of history by the day, it seemed like.
	I know it's all compressed in history like a squished-up accordion, but, you know, we used to take on the aristocracy and take them down.
	We took on the unity of church and state and pried them apart.
	We created havens of free speech in the West.
	We took on slavery.
	Certain aspects of the subjugation of women, we took all of these things on like it weren't no thing.
	Right?
	Like we were just like, oh, hey, while I was sleeping, a tiny spider made a cobweb on my arm.
	I think I will lift it.
	Boom!
	Slavery is done.
	Let us have a republic for the first time in 2,000 years.
	Let us make heaven on earth.
	No matter what the sacrifice that we used to have, not just those dreams, but the fortitude to pursue and achieve them, which is why we have the remnants of a great world that we're trying to keep alive.
	We used to control the mind.
	We used to control power.
	We tamed the great beast of hierarchy.
	And turned it into equality before the law.
	And for some reason, over the past hundred years, we have given up on our belief that we can challenge fundamental principles, fundamental organizational principles in society and outgrow them.
	That we can tear down the injustices and the abuses of power in the world.
	It is no more Challenging to end the state than it was to end slavery.
	Slavery was the foundational institution, was a very powerful institution for all of human history, and was the foundational economic organization of the world.
	And then it wasn't.
	And it was ended.
	And as a result of it ending, we gained 100 and 150 years of post-industrial revolution Avoid the doom of Rome scenario until we turned taxpayers into slaves and it all began again.
	But we used to take these things on and we used to ferociously fight to end the injustices and abuses of power in the world wherever they manifested.
	And we don't do that anymore.
	We don't look at the Jupiters of injustice.
	We allow little tiny dust motes to sting our eyes and blind us.
	We don't look at what funds and fuels war and dysfunction and degradation and control and welfare.
	The submerging and subjugation of entire classes to repetitive grinding poverty.
	We don't look at that anymore.
	We talk about microaggressions.
	And mansplaining and, well, isn't it terrible that men spread their legs a little bit on the subway?
	This is what we have been diminished to.
	We chase after the imaginary ghosts of imaginary racism or sexism or homophobia or whatever.
	We don't have any battles anymore.
	We have Petty digital skirmishes that mean nothing.
	And we have been so scraped of greatness.
	We have been so massaged by material comfort into spinelessness.
	Civilization has become our exoskeleton.
	The whole point of having an exoskeleton is you don't need a spine anymore.
	No spine in a lobster.
	No spine in a crayfish.
	No spine in an oyster.
	No spine in a shrimp.
	So we've allowed ourselves to be encased in the comforts of civilization.
	We've lost all our spine, which means we'll get to lose our exoskeleton and won't yet have a spine.
	So it's going to take some muscle.
	So Mary, I hear you and I understand.
	You want...
	The world that should be.
	The world that you've heard about.
	The world that you understand.
	The world of the non-aggression principle.
	And we can't get it.
	And it's tortuous that we can't get it right now.
	It's good that it's tortuous.
	It means that we'll keep fighting for it.
	And if we talk about it, people attack us for hypocrisy.
	Not for having great visions of egalitarianism before the moral law that we cannot attain.
	They attack us for any desire for greatness because our greatness makes them feel small while it makes us feel great and big and powerful.
	And they feel that we're robbing them of their greatness or their imaginary greatness.
	So they want to attack us for our elevated ideals and that's predictable and understandable and downright boring.
	So how do you live With an all-consuming hunger for a better world.
	You work to make it.
	and just step over those in the way.
	Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there, as usual.
	I Sometimes it's an arrow over a house, but I'm glad it landed somewhere useful.
	I was half expecting this.
	No, no.
	I was captivated.
	It seems obvious now, but I think the way you said it, the gap that has been very vulnerable and uncomfortable.
	And yeah, seeing how you want them to be and how they could be and how they are in certain areas, but it can't be everywhere.
	I don't have control over that.
	I totally relate to that sentiment.
	I think that's a lot of what's going on.
	I do.
	I've given you absolutely nothing to do.
	What do I do?
	We're tortured into trying to do something, but raise your kids, love your husband, keep talking to him honestly about what you think and feel.
	But I understand, if I don't do a show tomorrow, nobody dies.
	But if your husband doesn't go to work tomorrow, that's a possibility.
	That is, you know, for dudes in particular, you know, we're known for being a tad disposable and taking on a few too many burdens.
	So that's part of it as well.
	But at some point, it's his kids that matter and you that matter, right?
	It's your family that goes through life with you, not the people you're rescuing from a dysfunction you can't solve.
	Exactly.
	All right.
	Will you keep us posted?
	I will, of course.
	Yeah, thank you.
	I needed to talk to you about this.
	This has been bothering me for a long time.
	So I really appreciate the opportunity.
	And thank you for letting me kind of talk in general before about what's going on.
	But it kind of gives a backdrop to, I think, the personal stuff as well.
	So I appreciate it.
	All right.
	Well, keep us posted.
	And thanks so much for your call.
	You're welcome back any, any time.
	Okay.
	Thanks, Steph.
	Take care.
	Bye.
	Alright, up next is Ben.
	Ben wrote into the show and said, As a young black conservative, my ideas are not exactly mainstream.
	Most of my peers are very liberal, and most older adults vote blue no matter what.
	Your show and the internet in general have fostered my desire to become a free thinker.
	My question to you is how can I engage my peers in the black community, or leftists in general, to get them to at least question the Democratic Party, what it stands for, and to be more open to moderate or conservative views.
	That's from Ben.
	How you doing?
	Hello, Ben.
	How you doing, brother?
	Doing all right.
	Doing all right.
	How are you?
	I'm well.
	I'm well, thank you.
	Yeah, challenging.
	Challenging position.
	It's the old minority within a minority kind of thing, right?
	Yeah, for sure.
	First of all, what the hell were you thinking in taking this path?
	And secondly, how did this come about?
	Well, basically, my entire life I've kind of had, I guess, differing views from most people in my community.
	I never really liked how my community was shaped or formed, and so I looked to alternative, I guess, I guess viewpoints to explain the world and how I wanted it to be and stuff like your show and conservative talk radio for some reason I find really interesting.
	Ben, was there any particular moment where I sort of think of like I had model trains when I was a kid and you'd get these little branchers, right?
	The track would go off in another direction, switchers or whatever.
	And you throw the switch and your train goes in a different direction.
	Was there any particular moment where that kind of click switched through and you realized, wow, this is a completely different direction now?
	I guess thinking back...
	Oh yeah, in particular, when I was in, I guess, high school, and I would talk about not even right-wing views, not anti-abortion or anything like that, but just stuff like, oh, the welfare state isn't a good thing, or black people probably shouldn't be on welfare too much.
	I would be just attacked.
	And it was at that point that I was like, We have to change this.
	I can't be on the same side as, I guess, the mainstream community in that sense.
	And what were the arguments that would come back when you said, you know, blacks shouldn't be on welfare as much?
	Like I was just quoting some statistics that, you know, over 80% of black families with kids are on welfare.
	And is that a really controversial position to say maybe we should pull back on this a smidge?
	Yeah, mostly you get, oh, well, you know, without welfare, you know, we can't survive or like stuff like that.
	Or, you know, there was a wealth stolen from us hundreds of years ago.
	And, you know, we need this to, you know, stay on track or to get ahead.
	And it's kind of like, it's baffling sometimes.
	Yeah, you know, and obviously nobody's going to defend slavery in any way, shape, or form, but, you know, if slavery was so productive, then why was the North, which didn't really have slavery, wealthier than the South?
	And why have the countries who've given up on slavery ended up much more wealthy than those countries that have retained it?
	And also, if the, you know, forcible transfer of other people's productivity is so bad, and welfare comes from taxpayers, you know, isn't that a principle that, you know, you know all this stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	We can't survive without welfare.
	You were saying that was sort of an argument, right?
	Yeah.
	Why?
	Not why is that an argument.
	Sorry, that was a bit ambiguous, but why?
	Why is that perspective that the blacks can't survive without welfare?
	I guess in the communities I grew up in, initially, we weren't necessarily poor, but we lived in a poor area.
	A lot of the people didn't have jobs or whatever, and they didn't have the economic prospects to see beyond welfare as a means of getting ahead.
	And I guess that's a really prevalent thing in a lot of black neighborhoods that I guess other communities might not experience.
	But, I mean, American blacks, of course, do see that there are blacks who succeed in American society.
	I mean, some of them, of course, American blacks.
	And a higher proportion, of course, blacks coming from overseas, right?
	Immigrants and so on.
	We just had one on recently, a fine fellow from...
	Nigeria, who was talking about the disconnect, lack of connection that he felt with American blacks.
	So there is that view, right?
	That, you know, if it's monolithic white racism, then there shouldn't be any black success really going on.
	It should be, you know, black success should be like black membership in the KKK. That doesn't happen.
	And so there is a view that, you know, it's not like a Denzel Washington film that opens up in the KKK like, you can't see this because there's a black actor in it.
	And he's a very charismatic and popular actor.
	There are exceptions to that idea.
	So where?
	Because it's a big insecurity, and I'm not trying to make it only psychological, but it's a big insecurity to say, well, some whites can make it, some Hispanics can make it, some blacks can make it, but we can't.
	That puts yourself in a different category, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, like, there's this, I guess you were kind of alluding to it, like this white racism type thing, but usually the code word for it is the system, and it's like, oh, the system is keeping us down, and the system and capitalism is keeping us down, and they'll forever keep us slaves and whatnot.
	And there's not a lot of trust in, I guess, you know, working hard and, you know, doing your best and getting wealth because they think it's like akin to winning the lottery.
	Ah, okay, okay.
	Is there, you know, I'm sorry to ask these leading questions and, you know, tell me if I'm going astray or if I'm putting too much into this, just obviously push back if I'm going astray.
	But if it's like, well, capitalism, it doesn't work for us, is there this perception that having a job is kind of like being a slave?
	That depends on who you would ask.
	A lot of the really fringe black power people, they would say yes.
	I guess most moderate, I guess normal, I don't want to say quote-unquote normal black people.
	Probably wouldn't think that.
	They'd think you weren't.
	Let me rephrase that.
	It's not necessarily the majority of the black community that feels that way, but there is a subset that is very vocal that influences other people that feels that way.
	Well, and that's not just in the black community.
	There's an annoying number of every ethnicity that talks about wage slavery.
	Voluntary association is exactly the same as coercion.
	And usually they're bemoaning the fact that they don't have much economic value to add and therefore can't make much money.
	So it's not a very common position.
	It is there probably among the more radical socialists as there is in every group, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	And so the system, that's the word that explains what is hugely tragic in not just American society around the world, which is the fact that the black communities are not doing stellar in many places, right?
	Yeah.
	And that must be a tough...
	I mean, that is a tough pill to process, right?
	For sure.
	I've gotten into...
	I'm pretty argumentative.
	I'd say I did debate for like five years.
	And I get into little arguments online and stuff like that.
	And people will just blame these abstract boogeymen for real-world problems.
	But they won't do anything to change it.
	They don't move for positive change.
	Right.
	And, sorry, no, go ahead, go ahead, sorry.
	I was going to say, it's like, oh, the system is bad, but, you know, I'll keep, you know, voting Democrat or, oh, the system is bad, you know, my community is horrible, but I'll still vote for the same people I've been voting for for 40, 50 plus years.
	Right.
	So this magic word system, also, doesn't it create this sort of monolithic, really high-to-get-over wall in terms of really motivating people to achieve?
	You know, if I think something's impossible, I'm not really going to try.
	It's that old thing that Henry Ford said, where he said, well, if you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.
	And, you know, with some limitations, of course, you know, I'm not going to be a gymnast, but there is some truth, especially if you think you can't, well, you're certainly right about that, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	So, engaging your peers in the black community or leftists in general to get them to at least question the Democratic Party, what it stands for, and to be more open to moderate or conservative views.
	Now, Ben, what are the most important ideas?
	Just give me sort of the top, maybe two most important ideas you'd like to get across to your peers.
	Hmm.
	I guess things like...
	The free market and the non-aggression.
	Yeah, okay.
	Those are two big ones, so that's good.
	Yeah, yes.
	Do you want to do a little role play, like you can play some lefty and I can play you?
	Yeah, I'll sell my soul for a little bit to play Lefty, but yes.
	Okay.
	You might need a shower with a fiery loofah after this, but, you know, let's give it a try, all right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, hey, Lefty!
	No.
	All right.
	So, I just wanted to talk to you about, you know, some things that I think would be pretty positive, kind of cool, about...
	Tell me what you think.
	When I say free markets, what does that mean to you?
	From the leftist point of view?
	Yeah, just be that.
	Lefty dude.
	Well, free markets make it so big, shadowy, evil corporations will take advantage of poor brown people.
	I'm guessing that's not a positive evaluation from you, so let's start with what we're working from.
	So the free market technically, you know, just in that annoying dictionary way, the free market just means voluntary trade, right?
	Let's just take the free market out of the equation.
	If that's what you think it means, then that's not obviously anything anyone wants to defend.
	But if it means sort of voluntary trade, does that sound better or feel better for you at all?
	I guess if it was completely voluntary and there weren't any power indifferences...
	Okay.
	All right.
	So good.
	All right.
	Because, you know, one of the great evils of all human history is slavery, and slavery was not part of the free market because, obviously, by definition, the slaves weren't there voluntarily and weren't paid.
	So the degree to which we can encourage voluntary trade, you know, we all need to trade to live.
	I can't produce everything that I need.
	I've got to go to the dentist.
	I don't like making my own pants.
	So...
	Chaps, yes.
	Pants, no.
	But the more we can promote kind of voluntary trade, I think the better.
	Is that like reasonable?
	Yeah, but what about the people who don't have anything to give to society?
	Well, you mean like children?
	Well, we don't generally try to get them involved in too many economic activities because they won't allow us to put them down mines anymore.
	It's terrible, right?
	So you mean kids?
	Well, you know, kids don't have a lot to offer economically, but we don't expect them to participate in that.
	Do you mean adults?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	That is a great question.
	So let's just say 18 plus, right?
	18 or more.
	So by the time someone's 18, how long have they been in school?
	12 plus years?
	Yeah, 12 plus years.
	And of course, that doesn't mean that the only education they get is in school.
	You read on the internet, you read books, you have conversations with people, you might go to political meetings in your teens or whatever.
	There's lots of ways.
	So you've had a dozen years of full-time education.
	So how is it possible that someone gets to 18 after a dozen years of education?
	And doesn't have any economic value.
	Well, it could have something to do with the government schooling, but I like the government.
	Well...
	The fact that you went through government schooling and liked the government might not be unrelated, but just putting that aside for a moment.
	When we talked about voluntary trade, do you think that government schools fall into the category of voluntary trade?
	Well, yes, because they agree to the social contract and the school is funded by taxes, so yes.
	Oh, well, no, not quite, though, because the parents don't agree, otherwise they wouldn't need to be taxed, right?
	Like, if I say I want to go on a road trip with some guy, if he's sitting on the seat beside me, that's one thing.
	If he's tied up in the trunk, that's quite another thing, right?
	I can't say, well, he's on the road trip because he's in the car with me when he's in the trunk tied with a good, strong set of cables.
	So the parents have to be taxed in order for the school to operate.
	They're not there voluntarily.
	And of course, a lot of parents want school choice, right?
	They're desperate for, waiting for Superman movie and other movies and so on, right?
	They're desperate for school choice, but they don't have it and they can't get it.
	And so, you know, maybe the parents got a voucher and they could take the voucher wherever they wanted, but they have to send their kids to the closest school.
	They have to pay for the school, whether they have kids or not, or whether their kids are doing well there or not.
	They can transfer their kids to a better school.
	They can get bad teachers fired.
	There's a whole big giant union and it's all protected by the state.
	I don't think we can say that that's...
	Really in the same category as going to a movie, where you don't have to force to pay for it, and you can go voluntarily, and you can leave if you don't like it, and in 20 minutes you get your money back.
	It's not quite in the same category.
	Is that a fair point to make?
	Yeah, that's a fair point.
	Excellent.
	Sorry, I was just shocked at you playing a lefty who said that's a fair point.
	But good.
	No, I appreciate it.
	Look, that's good, because this will keep the conversation moving.
	Your conversations may not match the mileage of this conversation.
	So, you know, we have a situation, and certainly the kids.
	I don't know what you thought about school, but...
	I was like a panda wrapped up in bubble wrap.
	I was just trying to claw my way out as quickly as possible.
	I even took summer school so I could get out one semester early to go out into the real world and get a job and all that.
	So the kids, I don't think, I think it's fair to say that the kids, at least according to the Alice Cooper song, the kids don't want to be there.
	Oh, Pink Floyd too.
	But the kids don't really want to be there.
	The parents are forced to pay.
	Parents are forced to send their kids there.
	There's really not a choice.
	There's no competition to figure out better ways of teaching or having better teachers.
	So that may have something to do with the fact that after 12 years, like, can you imagine?
	Can you imagine?
	I'm your guitar teacher for 12 years, and after 12 years of teaching you guitar, you can't play a song.
	Like, I think we can safely say, not optimum guitar teaching, right?
	Not the best, no.
	Whether or not you...
	Like, if you're economically productive in a free market environment, you'd want to send your kids to the school where they got an education that made them prepared for having some economic value as an adult, right?
	Not just teach them a trade and not even anything else, but, you know, critical thinking and reasoning skills, debating skills, negotiation skills, how to start a business, you know, all the things, law, economics, and all the things that would really help out when it came to...
	You'd probably want to send, like if you had the choice as a parent, I think it's fair to say you'd want to send your kids to a school where they had some capacity to earn a decent living when they got out as opposed to one where, you know, it seems like they can barely even read or fill out a job application.
	Is that a fair thing to say?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So if parents as a whole would want schools where their kids were enthusiastic to go, where they learned really useful things and they graduated ready to step into a decent job, but none of that exists, then I think it's fair to say that the schools don't really reflect what the parents want.
	Right.
	Right?
	Now, way back in the day, schools used to be responsive to parents because schools used to compete with each other to get the kids.
	And they tried to make it efficient, and they tried to make it fast, and they tried to make it valuable.
	And the literacy rate was very high, like 96%, 97%, 98%.
	Far higher than it is now, 150 years later, that the governments have taken over.
	The schools.
	And my sort of case or my argument is that if you look where there's the most competition, so where do you think a huge amount of competition is occurring in parts of the economy that you know?
	I'd say technology, like the tech industry, is pretty competitive at the moment.
	Right.
	Right.
	Now, the tech industry, Is incredibly competitive.
	Like, it seems like I remember when malls used to be something other than cell phone stores and cell phone kiosks.
	And now it's just like wild.
	I go to the, I haven't been to a mall for a while, but I went to a mall and it's just like, okay, you can go from this place to this place, to this place, to this place.
	And there's like three shoe stores and 9,000 cell phone stores.
	So yeah, there's a lot of competition and there's a lot of new features and there's this endless rows of Cell phones, and you don't have to pick up even one of them, right?
	Right.
	God help me, podcasts.
	So goddamn competitive, it'd make your head spin.
	And I mean, that's great for me.
	I thrive in that environment.
	But, you know, online media.
	I mean, how many people want you to come to their YouTube channel?
	Millions.
	Right!
	Now, I know for a fact that, just to break the roleplay for a moment, I just know from your introductory emails, Ben, that you're mostly subscribed to Asian makeup channels.
	But we'll just jump back in afterwards.
	I just wanted to share that with the audience.
	Which is why I'm really, really disappointed we don't have video for this.
	But that's alright, we'll survive.
	So here's an environment where you don't have to buy anything.
	The government's not really running anything.
	And there's a huge amount of innovation and they really want to get your business and they really produce some cool stuff.
	Wouldn't it be incredible if...
	Educating children were subject to the same kind of pressures for excellence and service and innovation and effectiveness as the cell phone industry.
	You know, you could argue that the future of civilization, which is dependent on the education of children, is just a little bit more important than whether your cell phone has Gorilla Glass 4 or 5 on it.
	So that's sort of an argument that I would make about the free market.
	And what stands in the way of more innovation in education, do you think?
	It would have to be, I guess, the unions and government regulation that keep teachers, bad teachers in their position and it keeps the schools stagnant and they can't grow and learn new things because there are so many barriers in red tape between them and success.
	I think that's very astute, and I think that's bang on.
	If you don't get rewarded for succeeding, And you don't get penalized for failing, it's really tough to get motivated.
	Like I remember when I was a kid, maybe this happened to you too, but when I was a kid, every now and then some board science teacher would put on a movie and the first question everyone would ask is, is this going to be on the test?
	Which is another way of saying, do I have to bother listening?
	Or can I just do my book or pass notes or text or whatever, right?
	And...
	So I think reward for success versus penalization for failure is pretty important, and it's kind of funny in the school system, and by funny I mean heartbreakingly and shatteringly tragic, but it's kind of funny that Kids get penalized for failure and rewarded for success, but teachers don't.
	Kids got to pass the test or they fail.
	And back when I was a kid, you might lose a whole grade or whatever, right?
	Go stay back and be the guy in grade four with the hair on the back of his fingers or whatever, right?
	And so the teachers want to inflict this reward and punishment methodology on the children, but they don't want to be subject to it themselves, right?
	Which is a little hypocritical to put it mildly.
	For sure.
	So these are just, you know, so the Republicans, you know, whatever their faults are, and Lord knows they have a lot, do seem to be a little bit more keen on things like homeschooling, unschooling, school choice, you know, that kind of stuff.
	There is something to be said for that, whereas the Democrats kind of got the strangled grip on the educational system through forced union dues and all that.
	Again, not voluntary.
	Not only did the parents not, you know, forced to pay for the school, but the...
	Even the union members are often forced to pay for political activities that they may or may not agree with.
	As far as free market goes, I totally get this shadowy corporation exploiting brown people and so on.
	That's a topic for another time.
	But just in terms of voluntary trade...
	I think that there's a case to be made that it would be really cool for kids if there was the kind of innovation in schools that we see in cell phones.
	And interestingly enough, if schools were more interesting, they'd spend less time on their cell phones.
	So it would actually shift really, really nicely.
	So that's kind of an argument that I would try and make with a bit of a lefty, just to make that case.
	And I would do that in particular with a younger person, especially if you're talking about school, you know, you're a young man, and everybody's still got that facial twitch PTSD from government education, so it's a bit more vivid for people more your age, if that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	And how did that work for you?
	I mean, you were a very nice lefty, and I appreciate that, but is that a way that would be helpful?
	Yeah, I'm going to be a lot more mild than most of the people I'd be engaging, but I guess I could see the arguments you're using there.
	Yeah, and you want to make sure that you're using a phrase that doesn't emotionally trigger people, right?
	So if he thinks, like, if he thinks, you're pro-free market, therefore you're in favor of shadowy corporations oppressing brown people, you can't win that.
	You know what I mean?
	It's like, let me redefine the word Nazi to mean angel.
	And let's talk about Nazism.
	So you have to figure out what the term means for them and then find a more emotionally neutral term that allows them to think without volatility, if that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	How do you make it past...
	This happens to me a lot because I guess because I am African American and I'm conservative in a very liberal space, I have been called an Uncle Tom and a self-hater multiple times.
	How would you...
	I'm kind of laughing right now because it kind of hurts, but how would you go or give me advice on how to, I guess, move the conversation beyond that?
	Or do I just end it?
	Yeah, you know, for me, debating is an act of respect and affection.
	And I try to avoid debates these days with people I don't respect.
	Because especially, look, if you're debating publicly, go for the throat.
	Right?
	Because listen, Uncle Tom Is an incredibly destructive term, obviously, applied to black people.
	I was going to say a racist term, but it kind of is, because Uncle Tom, to me, translates to race traitor.
	Like, these are the interests of black people, and you're kowtowing to white people, or you're kowtowing to the political power structures that be.
	You're becoming the token Sambo.
	You're becoming the token Uncle Tom to allow white people to get away with more racism by pretending to agree.
	It's kind of like a race traitor term.
	Is that too strong a way of putting it or is that sort of in the ballpark?
	I would definitely say that's in the ballpark because that's definitely how it is used.
	It uses this cudgel to beat you with when, oh, you're not like us, so you must have been corrupted by them.
	It's definitely this sort of traitor mentality.
	Right.
	So, I wouldn't debate someone privately like that.
	But if it was a public environment, I'd pull the how dare you card.
	How dare you?
	How dare you imply that in order to be black, I have to think a certain way?
	You complain about racism from other groups?
	In other words, you complain that other people think that blacks think a certain way, and all blacks have to think a certain way, and all blacks have this mindset.
	And then the moment you come across a black person who thinks differently, you attack that person and say, you're not really a good black because you're not thinking like all the other blacks.
	Well, which is it?
	Do you want everyone else to view blacks as individuals or do you want us all to think the same and then you're going to complain about racism?
	Pick one.
	Right.
	You're allowed to be black and not agree with being on the left.
	Being on the left is not the same as being black and being black is not the same as being on the left.
	If all blacks have to think alike, I don't even know what to say about that thesis, you know?
	Right.
	I can be black, and I can be a conservative.
	And if that's not allowed, then you can't complain about other people prejudging blacks.
	Because you're prejudging blacks, whoever's calling you an Uncle Tom.
	Well, you're not a real black.
	You're not a good black, unless you're serving your Democrat masters.
	Wait a minute.
	I don't think that's what freedom for blacks is supposed to be about.
	Yeah.
	That gets me, but when you bring it up, it's kind of like, oh, you don't understand.
	Unfortunately, my mother has done this to me, too.
	We were sitting at a...
	I was getting new glasses, and I told the lady at the counter, I was telling her what I was studying, and it was political science.
	My mom goes, oh, don't worry though, he's a Republican, so he's not going to do anything for us.
	And so I was just like, whoa!
	I don't betray the black community as soon as I vote Republican.
	Well, you know, as a Republican, it seems likely to me that you might go out and start a business, and I'm sure you wouldn't be averse to hiring a few brothers and sisters from your community, so you might actually be doing a little bit more for those people than making sure that they get welfare.
	Right.
	Or you might be inspiring other blacks to take that particular path, right?
	Like, I mean, a couple of months ago, I had a conversation with a young Blackfellow, I don't know if you heard it, whose ambition was to become a doctor and a lot of the people from his community were kind of fastening on to him saying, no, no, no, go into politics so you can get us stuff.
	And it's like, I don't think that that's really going to be very inspiring or sustainable in the long run, given that math is math.
	Yeah, you're right.
	Yeah.
	Just the vitriol that you get attacked with and...
	And sorry to interrupt you again, Ben.
	Let me explain to you the black experience once more.
	But also, if you are not going to be a Democrat and try and get more goodies for the black community...
	Then that is going to break people's stereotypes, right?
	I mean, if these people got their way, and by these people, I don't mean blacks, I just mean these lefties.
	If they got their way and all blacks said, well, we've got to go to the government to get free stuff, that would actually reinforce bigotry on the part of other people.
	Because if someone's just taken out of the pot and not putting into the pot or some group, all of them say, well, we just take it out.
	We eat the pie.
	We don't make the pie.
	At some point, the people who actually make the pie are going to get kind of resentful.
	It's the old, be careful what you wish for.
	You just might get it.
	The fact that you're going to go out there in the world as a conservative and not trying to use political machinations to get your community extra goodies is That's great, because then people are going to meet you and say, oh, this is great.
	This goes against, you know, maybe some of my preconceptions about lefty blacks and so on.
	So you're going to help break stereotypes that, if they're allowed to develop because of consistency in the black community, could actually turn out to be somewhat negative.
	Because, you know, if they get their way and all blacks are Democrats and all have the same political perspectives, well, then guess what?
	It's okay to judge blacks collectively, which I don't want to have to do.
	So thank you for breaking the mold.
	Oh, well, it's what I do.
	It is how you roll, if you don't mind me putting it that way.
	Nothing more funny than listening to me trying to hood it up a little.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Wait, you agree?
	Don't make me break out my Mike Brown rap.
	I've got it memorized.
	I'm ready to go.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, no, I was just choking on laughter.
	But, yeah, that was a...
	It's just a really big hurdle, I guess, engaging in conversations with...
	Because I personally, I agree with your stance on debate is a sign of respect.
	And I'm used to any other topic I can normally debate people without it turning into, you know, you're a traitor.
	And I really appreciate the...
	The reassurance that I'm breaking a mold and that I shouldn't be ashamed for who I am and whatnot.
	Well, just ask the person, am I allowed to be black and have different opinions?
	Or must I conform to what you think because I'm black?
	In other words, am I allowed to be black and think for myself?
	If not, Then don't blame people for categorizing blacks as think in a certain way.
	And if so, then don't attack me for being, like, don't say I'm somehow not a good black because I hold different perspectives from you.
	The whole point is to individualize, right?
	To not be conformist in this way.
	Definitely.
	All right.
	Will you let us know how it goes?
	Oh, for sure.
	Yeah.
	And if you do have someone who, you know, is real keen on debating lefty stuff, you know, bring them on the show.
	I'd love to have a chat.
	All right.
	Yeah, definitely.
	All right.
	Thanks, Ben.
	I appreciate it.
	And keep us posted, all right?
	All right.
	Sure thing.
	Thanks, man.
	Take care.
	Yeah, you too.
	Alright, up next is Tim.
	Tim wrote in and said, I am a student, a Marine Corps veteran, a musician, and a teacher of music, and a conservative that is attending university in a very liberal area.
	I try to keep an open mind and understand that my opinions are subject to change with new evidence.
	Given the indoctrination in American universities today, how can someone like me differentiate between an instructor, particularly one I may have a great deal of respect for, pushing a narrative, And something I should take under genuine consideration when my views or beliefs are challenged.
	And that's from Tim.
	Hello, Tim.
	How are you doing tonight?
	Good evening, sir.
	How are you?
	I'm well.
	I'm well, thank you.
	No, go ahead.
	I was just going to say, before we begin, I'd like to thank Michael for his help with me so far in the communication we've had, as well as all the stuff he does behind the scenes.
	Well, thank you, Tim.
	I appreciate that.
	Mike is a living god as far as that stuff goes.
	And the only reason I have time to think about what I'm doing and talk about it with Mike is because Mike takes so many bullets for my time that I can't even tell you.
	So I appreciate that and I appreciate everything that Mike does.
	So thanks for that feedback.
	So do you mind telling me what area you're studying in?
	I am a music major.
	I'm a jazz guitar performance major.
	So, ex-army hipster?
	Is that how we should refer to you for the remainder of this conversation?
	Ex-Marine Corps, by the way.
	Ex-Marine Corps.
	Sorry, I don't mean to confuse my categories.
	Ex-Marine Corps, current hipster.
	Do you have a soul patch?
	Just give me a visualization here.
	I have about a 5 o'clock shadow going on, but I still rock the high and tight.
	You still rock the what?
	The high and tight haircut.
	Oh, okay.
	So you've got that full-on Tom Skerritt helicopter landing pad?
	Just put me in Vietnam.
	Okay.
	I got it.
	I got it.
	Now, you say liberal area.
	Is the university pretty liberal?
	I mean, I've got to think California plus the arts.
	Is it California?
	It is, yes.
	Yeah, California plus arts plus jazz.
	I've got to think that that's about as left as you can get before becoming right again.
	Sure.
	It's three laps right there.
	But yeah, it's a pretty liberal area.
	And I get many strange looks when I describe myself as I did in the beginning, which Michael so wonderfully read.
	Yeah, I'm a Marine Corps veteran.
	I'm a teacher.
	I also study music.
	And they're just like, what?
	So it's pretty interesting.
	So you're going to beat me to death with a clarinet.
	Is that what's going to happen next?
	You probably have that thought.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, it's your sort of question around teachers that you have.
	Yes, more rather.
	And if I can, I'll provide a little background for the motivation behind the question.
	Please do.
	So there's an instructor that I had several years ago when I first started school who became somewhat of a mentor to me, musically, of course.
	And as our relationship went on, he would share more of his political views, not in a using his podium as a pulpit kind of way, which was nice, but I learned several things about him, him being very liberal.
	When I came up to this area, I found a similar mentor.
	And this individual does tend to take class time to preach about certain beliefs that he has.
	So I look at the situation and I go, well, I don't agree with this.
	I don't see what you're saying as something that is valuable for class, music environment or not.
	But I also...
	You know, more rather disagree.
	But then I step back and I realize, well, I'm here to learn something.
	So if I sit here and close my mind to this person, you know, this instructor who's charged with teaching me, more or less, then what am I going to come out as?
	Am I going to come out the same person, which is certainly not the goal, right?
	So it's a bit of a weird personal battle in my brain that I'll sit there and listen to someone who I respect spout off bullcrap, essentially, if I can say it as such.
	Right.
	No, and it's a great question.
	And I mean, I struggled with that same question when I was about your age in school as well.
	And I don't have a perfect answer, but I'll give you a couple of things that helped me.
	So I took a course because the rise of capitalism and the socialist response taught by a guy, I think he was on the left, to put it as mildly as possible.
	We had a lot of debates.
	And what I struggled to sort of understand was every perspective makes sense if you accept certain premises.
	Right?
	So if you accept certain principles at the beginning, everything kind of flows from that.
	So one of the challenges can be to try and figure out what are the principles at the root of the person's perspective that, like dominoes, ends up with them having this perspective.
	Now, if you know the principles at the root of other people's thinking, you are almost immune from infection.
	From their perspectives.
	You can internalize those perspectives.
	You can argue devil's advocate their position because you know the principles at the very beginning.
	If you start midstream without knowing the principles at the beginning, it's much more likely that you're going to get infected with their perspective.
	But if you know the principles at the beginning, then...
	It makes a lot more sense what they're doing.
	So for instance, I mean, this is very, very brief, but if you're lefties, have this general perception that everyone is equal, because there are selected.
	So size and strength of a rabbit doesn't really matter.
	Whereas in foxes, in wolves and so on, it does.
	So everyone's kind of equal.
	Nobody's really better than anyone else.
	Nobody's really worse than anyone else.
	Therefore, inequality must result from injustice.
	So if you sort of understand this biological perspective that everyone's equal, and by that I mean, I don't just mean like IQ or anything like that, and ethnicity.
	Everyone's equal, in other words, women are just as dedicated and available for working as men are.
	Because children don't exist, and pregnancy doesn't exist, and breastfeeding doesn't exist.
	So if everyone is equal, then all discrepancies in outcomes must be due to some sort of Injustice in the world.
	Because everyone's equal, the only way that the capitalist becomes rich is by exploiting the workers.
	And...
	Oh, you're a young guy, but there's an old Eddie Murphy movie with Dan Aykroyd called Trading Places.
	Eddie Murphy plays this guy who's homeless.
	And he's just given this chance and he becomes this fantastic stock trader.
	I have seen that, yeah.
	Oh, you've seen it?
	Okay.
	So that's a basic lefty movie and it's no accident, of course, that I think it was...
	Oh, don't even get me started on artists talking about Donald Trump.
	Oh, I used to like it.
	Anyway, and not because, you know, I'm so pro-Donald Trump.
	It's just the bad arguments.
	No arguments and so on.
	I think Dan Aykroyd just came out about it.
	So there's this perspective.
	It's like, well, the only reason that Eddie Murphy is like this homeless guy rather than having a corner office is just bad luck or racism or injustice or whatever.
	And that is really important.
	And you see Dan Aykroyd go from the top to the bottom.
	You see Eddie Murphy go from the bottom to the top.
	And you see this kind of repeated over and over again in movies all the time, which is everything's environment.
	There's no fundamental difference between people.
	And if you give the homeless guy the opportunity, then he'll be just like the guy who went through the Harvard Business School or Wharton or whatever it is, right?
	So if you take this perspective, That everyone's the same.
	Then all the consequences flow from there.
	And so if you say, okay, well, if I were to believe that everyone was the same, men and women, rich, poor, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, Jew, it doesn't matter.
	Everyone's the same.
	What would flow from that if I genuinely believed that?
	Well, generally, lefty perspectives would flow from that.
	And so, also what flows from that is kind of a contempt for the poor.
	Because if everyone's the same, then poor people are making bad decisions incomprehensibly.
	You know what I mean?
	Like, everyone's the same.
	So, if Eddie Murphy has the capacity to be this fantastic stock trader...
	Why isn't he?
	Why isn't he?
	Why is he on a street corner pretending to have no legs, right?
	Right.
	Because he's really making bad decisions, right?
	Whereas if we say, okay, well, homeless people, you know, very often have unbelievably horrifyingly bad childhoods, have probably made some bad decisions, partly as a result of free will and partly as a result of their childhoods and maybe got involved in drugs or maybe got involved in criminality or prostitution and sealed themselves off from a more stable future and then have probably ended up in some seriously mentally ill state later on in life.
	You know, probably not the smartest people to begin with, probably had really bad childhoods, probably made some really bad decisions.
	It's a whole combination of things, but partly choice and partly environment.
	And the solution for that is better parenting, right?
	So that people have better childhoods and therefore make better decisions and have better outcomes.
	And so, whereas, of course, if everyone's equal, then it's just bad luck.
	But at the same time, if everyone's equal, then why are some people rich and some people poor?
	There's this contempt for the poor.
	This is why they want to shoulder aside the free will of the poor and impose other things on them.
	Like, you poor people are too stupid to send your kids to school, so we're going to have government education for you.
	You poor people are too stupid to save for your own retirement, therefore we're going to have government pensions.
	You poor people are too stupid to take care of your own health, therefore we're going to have Obamacare.
	Poor people are too stupid, you know, X, Y, and Z, whatever, right?
	You don't understand the value of roads, so we've got to tax you for roads or whatever, right?
	So if you believe everyone's the same, you have this giant intellectual problem, which is if everyone's the same, why are outcomes so vastly different?
	Right.
	And, you know, when it's singers, it's easy, right?
	Go to karaoke and like one person out of ten is decent.
	Why isn't this catawalling guy who sounds like he just, you know, kicked over a lamp and got shocked with the filaments, why isn't he a singer?
	Because he's not good at singing.
	And the good singer didn't steal his voice.
	Right.
	It's like, that bastard, he took my lovely operatic voice and replaced it with this squawky, froggy voice box from hell.
	That's not what happened.
	We sort of all understand that because there's a physical component to singing.
	You need to have the instrument.
	You know, Freddie Mercury, a great singer, never took singing lessons, screwed up his voice with notes and smoking and strain, but nonetheless, right?
	So...
	We all understand that with certain physical characteristics, you know, like to be a supermodel, you need a particular spaghetti leg body type, which is both lean and...
	Well, it's thin, but not formless, right?
	And it's a particular kind of body type that clothes hang well on someone.
	You have to have the cheekbones and the look and all that.
	It's the way it is.
	So if you go to, I don't know...
	Some woman who's not that way inclined physically, well, why aren't you a supermodel?
	It's like, well, not because a supermodel stole my thinness or something, my cheekbones, right?
	It's just the way it is.
	But for the brain, it's different.
	And I think the reason why leftism, I think, and femininity kind of go hand in hand in that way is because women have a tough time being honest with how bad people are.
	You know, women want to be very encouraging and very positive and don't like to hurt people's feelings.
	Which is why back in the day with American Idol, Simon Cowell was like the grumpy...
	Uncle who seemed to be passing a kidney stone while giving particularly harsh criticisms, which were actually cost-friendly and positive in that they helped people stop wasting their time with things they're not good at.
	Whereas, you know, Paula Abdul and, you know, it's just a little less nicer and didn't want to say bad things and so on.
	And so it's tough, you know, for moms to say to their pride and joys and the boys and girls they grew in their bellies and breastfed to say, sorry, you're terrible.
	You're not good at this.
	this.
	You just suck.
	Or however you do it, right?
	And I get that.
	You know, your kids are enthusiastic about various things and maybe they're good at them and maybe they're not, you know.
	And even if they're good at them, you don't want to say they're too good at them.
	Otherwise, they'll stop trying and think they're already perfect and all that, right?
	So it is hard for women in particular to say...
	You're bad.
	Which is why you've got this very fragile generation as more and more female teachers are taking over education.
	You've got this very fragile generation that hasn't been toughened up by people saying, you suck!
	You know, I mean, in that way.
	And less competitive sports and so on.
	Because even if your parents...
	If your parents don't tell you you suck at hockey, but you suck at hockey and nobody wants to play with you.
	If your mom won't tell you that you're a slow-ass runner, but nobody wants you on their running team, at least you get that kind of feedback from a peer standpoint.
	But of course, that's been hammered out because...
	You know, women have a tough time seeing people sad and disappointed, whereas men recognize, I think, that in general as a necessary part of reality feedback.
	So I think if you get those initial perspectives and realize where the dominoes fall Then it's a lot easier to absorb other people's arguments and even be able to reproduce them and not be harmed by them.
	You know, it is an essential component of an educated person to be able to entertain and argue for an idea you disagree with.
	Because it means that you're able to empathize with somebody else's perspective.
	And, you know, if I were our selected and full of cowardice and resentment or whatever, then, you know, I would be that way inclined as well.
	That everyone's equal and the only inequalities come from injustice.
	Or rank stupidity.
	So I'd have both a desire to fight for the poor and a desire to hold them in near infinite contempt for their bad decisions.
	So it's kind of a paradox, which explains why it's so hard to end the welfare state and why the leftists disrespect the poor so much while they claim to fight for them.
	And so does that help at all?
	Like if you get the initial principles, after that you can follow the beliefs without harm to yourself.
	Yeah, it certainly does.
	And I think you probably, I don't know if it was on purpose or not, but I believe you quoted the Aristotle in there where you were just like, it's kind of the mark of a wise man to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it kind of thing.
	Right.
	Yeah, and that parallel you drew between the singer, the singer, you know, who's incredibly good and the singer who's incredibly bad, that, you know, the bad singer, or rather the good singer, did not steal the, you know what I mean, the other way around.
	And I think there's a parallel for how, you know, people will say like, oh, the white man stole this from the black community.
	No, that's not how that works, you know?
	So it's just as a, you know...
	The musician, the musical kind of parallel is kind of nice there.
	I kind of like that.
	I tried to tailor-make the metaphors just for the listeners, so I'm glad that one helped.
	It worked out great.
	It totally drove a point home there.
	But I definitely understand that.
	Now, when it comes down to somebody I do respect, for instance, and I do spend a lot of time with, I can definitely see what you're saying.
	Go in there and understand where it's rooted.
	And I do have here before me the textbooks that I had from a quote-unquote contemporary sexuality class, which was basically a feminist indoctrination class.
	That is a required general ed.
	And that was going to be the second part of my question, is that then when I go into a...
	A classroom which I do not know the teacher and I'm taking everything at face value and again with the mindset that I'm here to learn something, I'm here to be educated, I'm here to ultimately make myself better but through the mechanisms that they provide at the university.
	That is another thing of how to look at that and say, oh, wait, that doesn't sound quite right, or take this quote-unquote authority that is at the podium at the top telling me these things.
	And it's a similar question of how do I rationalize through, wait, that doesn't sound quite right, or I should take what they're saying as fact.
	Well, what are the basic principles behind the feminist approach in that class?
	Well, I actually have a few pages marked here with small little quotes and I could read directly from the textbook to you if you'd like.
	Sure.
	So, first one is talking about gender and it says, for many people the terms gender and sex are interchangeable.
	Western culture has come to view gender as a binary concept with two rigidly fixed options, male or female.
	A child is born.
	A quick glance between the legs determines the gender label.
	Alright, hang on.
	See, already we have a problem.
	Western culture has come to believe.
	Yes.
	Well, no.
	I mean, Western culture looks at a penis versus a vagina.
	It doesn't sort of come to believe, you know?
	Right.
	You look and you see.
	Which is not to say that there are only two genders as far as all possible combinations, but it's not like it just, well, it's just mysteriously come to believe that, you know?
	It's just like, well, no, that's what the empirical evidence is in the majority of cases.
	Then there's a particularly ridiculous statement here in one of these pages.
	It says, across history and across cultures, rich and powerful men have had more sex than those lower down in the social hierarchy.
	The most obstinately cruel way for men to control women's reproduction is to rape her.
	The most plausible explanation...
	Okay, hang on, hang on.
	We've got to take these one at a time.
	So throughout history, rich men have had more sex than poor men?
	Yes, that is the general statement, the general sense of the first statement.
	So what that means is that women are attracted to rich men?
	I would assume so.
	Okay.
	So why not say, throughout history, women have been sexually attracted to rich men?
	Because that does not fit the narrative that they're trying to push.
	Well, that gives women agency.
	Right.
	And you don't want to give women agency, apparently, if you're this kind of feminist.
	Anyway, go on.
	Then the probably most ridiculous at the end of the statement, the most plausible explanation of the fact that about 1 in 200 men on this campus, I suppose this is written by a master's student, carry the same chromosome in that they are all descendants of Kangaskhan.
	Right?
	Right.
	I think that's an incredibly ludicrous statement to be in a textbook, that somehow, because there is a certain genetic that they're arguing in here, a genetic quality, that they're related to Kangas Khan, the conqueror, you know?
	No, no, I get that.
	And, of course, the challenge that feminists would have in this situation is they're saying that rape may be genetic, but since African Americans rape a lot more than, say, Asians, they're saying that African Americans' propensity for rape is genetic.
	Yeah, right.
	That's a challenging thesis to get across in a modern campus.
	I'm not saying I agree with it.
	I'm just saying that that would be the logical conclusion.
	Sure, sure.
	And then I have one more here.
	It says, an expert in sexual studies, and the name, denial of institutional and social equality and participation to sexual minorities occurs in such areas as education, parental rights, health care, labor markets, housing, taxing, pensions, and insurance, partner beliefs, political representation, and immigration laws, partner beliefs, political representation, and immigration laws, to name only some of the major terrains.
	So the fact that there are fewer men in higher education in America these days than women is something that needs to be fixed, right?
	Evidently.
	And as a matter of fact, I do also have the numbers for my school, as a matter of fact, of the percentages of men versus women and all the different demographics thereof, which kind of would support exactly what you just said.
	Right.
	And then the fact, of course, you know, the problem is that not enough women get killed in the line of duty in jobs, right?
	Certainly in the military, I know it's much lower than male casualties.
	But, you know, workplace, was it 5,000 people die in job-related injuries every year in America, and 90% of them are men.
	So clearly, we need to set up more trapdoors in the secretarial pool or whatever, right?
	Because, you know, we need to release more tigers into the model's den.
	Because, you know, you've got to get that number up, right?
	Yeah, 90% is too damn high.
	We need equality, damn it.
	Wasn't there something where there's this runner in the Olympics who is kind of male but is competing in the female race?
	And that's a big problem, apparently, because, you know, the sort of male-ish female runner is winning like crazy.
	Everyone's saying, well, that's unfair.
	And it's like, no, that's equality.
	Yeah.
	All right, so keep going.
	Sure.
	And now I have the workbook.
	That was our study workbook.
	Wait, sorry to interrupt.
	I just said keep going.
	I apologize.
	Any footnotes?
	Any facts?
	Any citations?
	Any data?
	Or is it all just a bunch of like, here are some sentences?
	At the end of some of the chapters, there are citations, but they're mostly from the author.
	So what this textbook basically is, the instructor combined her own research along with some of her colleagues, compiled it into a textbook, and then put that on sale.
	And as you talked about the fact that women have not been drafted throughout human history, and that's very unequal.
	I didn't read that anywhere, no.
	Yeah.
	Has it ever talked about the fact that in most conflicts, if one tribe conquers another, the males are put to death, but the women are kept alive?
	Oh, I know for a fact that's not in there.
	I would have highlighted that.
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, okay, so I think that we, I think we get a sense of where this is going.
	Because, I mean...
	Hey up, guilty man!
	Yeah, I hear a lot about, on shows like yours and, you know, other YouTubers that, you know, yes, this is indoctrination in, you know, our universities, etc.
	I have a physical textbook here to kind of lend credence to that.
	Just, you know, that's why I... It's nice to know that I have to adjust my nads at the moment.
	I hear this kind of text and my Audi becomes an innie, so it's actually kind of a relief not to have to cast the nads banging up against me.
	Did you want to go on with a little more?
	Sure.
	I'll read from one of the study questions.
	There's two of them I have here.
	The first is, in today's society, are job opportunities and wages equal for men and women?
	My answer was yes, men and women make different choices and thus go in different paying fields.
	Oh no, no, no, they're not equal.
	Go try and become a kindergarten teacher as a man.
	Okay.
	No, seriously, or go come a daycare teacher as a man.
	There are lots of female-dominated industries where you're often not welcome as a man.
	So, no, definitely.
	And I'm sure there are others as well, but that's not particularly the case.
	And, of course, when it comes to affirmative action, hiring, I was just reading Scott Adams' great book that he just put out.
	How to Fail at Almost Everything, which I did an interview with him and we'll put that out later.
	But he was saying that he hit the diversity ceiling in his career because the word came down from on high, stop promoting white men.
	Oh, wow.
	Because, you know, we are...
	We have too many white men in senior positions, so stop promoting white men.
	And there are, of course, job opportunities that are posted in various places where they explicitly say white men need not apply.
	Or we're looking for members of Diverse female, whatever it is, however they phrase it.
	So, yeah, for sure, when it comes to diversity hires, men, white men, men are not just a slight disadvantage, but are generally completely excluded from the opportunity.
	So, yeah, of course it's not equal.
	Okay.
	Then the second question that I have here that I highlighted that was- Wait, one more!
	One more!
	Do you mind?
	Very quickly.
	Please.
	So, once I was so desperate for work, I applied for a job in a woman's clothing store.
	A, yes.
	B, still needed the job.
	Right.
	And so...
	And it was, you know, it was a woman I actually kind of knew from high school, and she was, you know, she took the application, but, you know, I wasn't really expecting a callback.
	So, yeah, but I did.
	I applied at the now-vanished Don Mills Mall to get a job in a woman's clothing store.
	And I had no particular illusions about my hireability, but, you know, I wasn't going to get that job.
	And lo and behold...
	No, but so go on with the book book.
	Oh, okay, I see.
	Anywho, the second question here that I did get marked wrong is it says, name several societies slash countries that are currently very patriarchal.
	I put Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar and Iran, and that was marked incorrect.
	What?
	What?
	Yeah.
	This is, again, a whole huge workbook.
	I just selected some of the more interesting ones.
	No, no, but what was the reason by which this was marked incorrect?
	I was not given one because it was graded by the instructor's, what do you call them, teacher's aides.
	So it wasn't, I didn't, you know, figure this out until my train ride home and I was looking through it and I went, what?
	So...
	So I have a mental note to myself, if I see this on a test for the sake of passing, which is a whole other issue for the sake of passing, I'm going to mark what I know is the wrong answer that they're considering to be the correct answer.
	Right.
	But anyway, I just wanted to kind of provide some actual, you know, real-life, real-time insight into a lot of these claims that I've heard that, like I said, yourself and many others have made.
	No, it's true.
	Listen, if you wrap yourself in white and you're standing on sand, it's a magical shield against patriarchy race.
	It's incredible.
	But sorry, go on.
	There's a whole chapter with several sections dedicated to patriarchy in there.
	And this was a prerequisite course for the social justice and education master's degree.
	That I took as a general ed because it ticked a couple different boxes.
	And the way this master's degree is described in its first sentence is, a major component of this program is social activism, which lends credence, once again, to a lot of the claims that I've been hearing made.
	And I just wanted to, again, provide, you know, credence to those claims.
	Yeah, no, they don't want to be market-facing, clearly, right?
	I mean, and even the name of the degree is something that you see that on someone's resume, and if you're a social justice warrior, you know that you can hire them, and they're not going to disturb any of your ideology, right?
	There's a lot of sort of these dog whistles that go out for these kinds of courses.
	But the fact that it's mandatory, and the fact that a clear answer about patriarchal societies is marked wrong, well, you know, You know, what can I tell you?
	I'll tell you what.
	When I was, I guess in my mid-teens, I had sort of my first girlfriend.
	And she came over to my house and I made her something to eat, but there was never anything to eat at my house.
	Hung around a lot of friends' places.
	Are you guys going to eat soon?
	So I gave her some food that I had, and the only other thing that I had was an old sandwich I'd put in the fridge to save for later.
	And I'm sitting across from this woman, a girl.
	She was a girl.
	I guess we're a boy and girl, right?
	It was a very innocent relationship.
	So I was sitting across from this girl and chatting away, and I bite into my sandwich, and I realize it's moldy.
	And...
	What did I do?
	Well, I'm young.
	I want to impress her.
	I don't want to say I have moldy food on the house.
	What do I do?
	Eat it.
	I eat it, baby!
	I'm like Louis Pasteur, experimenting on myself, and I have never been sick ever since.
	So I just, you know, smile and chat away and chow down on the furry baloney.
	That sounds like rude, but it's not.
	Because, you know, it's like, wow, it'd be really nice if I could hold her hand later, and I don't want to spoil the moment by spitting this across her face.
	Take a big bite.
	What the hell is this?
	This thing has got tentacles coming out of it.
	I don't want to put this in my mouth.
	So yeah, you know, you have the goal of holding the girl's hand so you'll mow down on the, basically, the sandwich that's biting you back because it's evolved.
	And so it's okay.
	It only had molars, not incisors, so I was able to choke it down.
	Oh, there you go.
	So, you know, you got to eat the sandwich to get the benefit.
	And yeah, I can regurgitate propaganda with the best of them.
	And if that's what's necessary, you know, to gain my freedom, where do I need to sign?
	Okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Oh, and then to answer your question you had earlier about how, you know, how liberal is the area, there are 29,465 students on the campus, and when I went to the Young Republicans meeting, there were nine of us.
	And probably eight of them were spies.
	That's what I thought.
	To find out exactly when the Klan rally was planned.
	I really thought that at first.
	When I first found out that there was a Republican, you know, student union or whatever it was on campus, I emailed them, and that was one of my first thoughts.
	It's like, this is a trap.
	Right, right.
	It's going to be a trap door that's going to lead you to further indoctrination.
	Saudi Arabia is not patriarchal!
	Because reasons!
	Saudi Arabia won't give us money for calling it patriarchal, so we don't bother.
	Anyway.
	So now that you've kind of had the...
	You know, the look into what that class was kind of all about.
	If, you know, I walk into a class like that and, you know, given that I've been trained since kindergarten to accept what the instructor says, there are certain things, of course, in this book that make sense.
	There are statistical things that have zero, at least from what I saw, zero leaning one way or the other.
	It was kind of nice.
	Okay, cool.
	You know, this is something that is, you know, just numbers based and there wasn't like an opinion made on it.
	So it's not all bad.
	There's two or three pages that are okay.
	But how would I go in there and then be able to sit there and critically look at this, whatever this is being presented to me, and just say kind of, hmm, there's something fishy about this?
	Especially if it's just something that I don't know, like if I have to go to a master's program one day, which I plan to do.
	And I take, you know, a certain course that I may think is benign, but it turns out, you know, may be exactly like this, some sort of indoctrination.
	So what are some tactics of listening that I can take?
	I hope I made that question.
	Tim, quick question just before we go on.
	What's tougher, this or basic training?
	I would say at the current stage, this.
	Right.
	Because at least in basic training, you get to throw up and keep going, right?
	This is like wrestling with your own head.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, you know, basic training, you know, at the end of it, you don't want to leave.
	And I don't know if that's, you know, just because I enjoy structure and order in my life and everything is regimented, or if it's their own form of indoctrination, which, you know, could be a possibility.
	No, but at least it's honest indoctrination, right?
	I mean, they're not, you know, they're not mocking you wrong for right answers.
	They're just like, you will obey!
	Anyway.
	So, I've played evil characters in my relatively brief acting career.
	And you really have to get into the mindset, right?
	You've got to be all Heath Ledger, you know, lock yourself in a hotel room and then become such a nasty guy that bad things seem to happen outside of the role.
	But...
	If you are going to play a bad guy, you have to kind of be in that mindset.
	You have to really get into the character.
	I mean, I'm not totally method as far as that goes, but, you know, I'm down with Stella Adler and that, you know, emotional memory stuff and try and find ways in which...
	You had negative thoughts or hostile thoughts or people you wish to do harm to and just sort of do the flip.
	So you have to really get in.
	But it's a character, right?
	And, you know, some people...
	I remember reading about Val Kilmer when he was playing Jim Morrison, you know, got himself into those.
	They actually found the original jeans.
	Leather pants that Jim Morrison had worn.
	Of course, they were a little skanky by this time.
	But he kind of stayed in character throughout the filming.
	And I sort of understand that that's easier in some ways.
	But...
	You're playing a character called a guy who wants to graduate.
	Right?
	So, you know, when I played an evil character, you know, I played Macbeth, who, you know, had pretty evil characteristics, like murdering the king in his sleep, and, of course, murdering the dozens of innocent peasants that he did before that.
	But anyway, that's not really part of the whole equation.
	I played Gloucester, I think it was, in...
	King Lear, and I used my cane to gouge somebody's eyes out.
	And, you know, like, it was a really nasty, nasty character.
	I did play some good guys, too.
	But, you know, that was, you know, because I have, you know, Joe Arian head.
	People, I guess, failed.
	He's got a square jaw.
	He can be evil.
	But, so, I was just playing a character.
	Now, in this situation, you're playing a character who wants to graduate.
	And you have to play a role in order to graduate.
	You know, I don't have to be evil.
	I just have to play evil.
	And you don't have to believe it all.
	You just have to play someone who believes it in order to get what you want.
	Sure.
	But the dichotomy in that is I'm also there because I know I want to be better in some way.
	And that's just not the proficiency of my musical understanding and in my instrument, but also on a personal level.
	There's a benefit of experience before me in the instructors and in my peers.
	And so, yes, I want to get the letter grade that tells me I'm good enough to hold this piece of paper that then qualifies me to get some sort of job.
	Sure, that's the ultimate goal.
	But on a personal level, and maybe this just isn't what people look at college as anymore, but I also want to be better as a person.
	And you will be.
	That's perfectly...
	Have you ever seen the movie Patton?
	Patton?
	Yeah.
	Oh, of course.
	You're an ex-Marine.
	Of course you've seen Patton.
	Right?
	I'm going to get the right...
	I'm going to get the right quote here if it kills me.
	So let me see if I can...
	If I may correct you one more time, Stefan.
	Please.
	There is no such thing as an ex-Marine.
	Sorry.
	You're absolutely right.
	Once a Marine, always a Marine.
	Please don't hurt me.
	All right.
	Okay.
	Some great quotes from Patton.
	Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
	He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.
	I just like that in particular.
	I do too.
	Sorry?
	I do too, and it's completely true.
	Right.
	And so he was fighting Desert War against Rommel, right?
	The German guy, right?
	Yep.
	And I remember this because a friend of mine held up two beer bottles once and did this quote.
	Rommel, you magnificent bastard!
	I read your book!
	Right?
	Because Rommel wrote a book called Infantry Attacks, and Patton read Rommel's book and was able to defeat him in battle because of that, right?
	Makes sense.
	Rommel was a tank commander, so why would he write about the infantry?
	I don't know.
	You're the military guy, so...
	Well, there's my question.
	About his pistol grips.
	They're ivory.
	Only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol.
	I don't think so.
	It's a pretty good movie.
	So anyway, if you want to fight people who you think are wrong, it doesn't hurt to be instructed by them, right?
	You find out where the weaknesses are.
	You find out where the principles are.
	Like, I spent a lot of time combating socialists, and I kept doing it until I found those initial principles that I was talking about.
	Like, everyone's equal, and therefore all inequalities must come from injustice.
	Now, once you get that, then you can go right to the root of the problem rather than batting around all of this effects.
	You can get to the actual course.
	So you are...
	You're infiltrating.
	You're a double agent, right?
	You're infiltrating, figuring out how these people think and what their perspectives are.
	And they do think and they have perspectives and they have particular principles.
	That is their starting point.
	And most people are like this.
	You know, most people are like this.
	I remember a friend of mine years ago when talking about my book, University Preferable Behavior.
	He said, what I love about this is most people just like they plant a flag somewhere and they say...
	These are my ethics.
	You know, that flag may be God or country or utilitarianism or pragmatism or whatever.
	Here, find the flag, right?
	And if you believe that that's where the flag should be, then it makes sense to you.
	And if you don't, but you can't convince anyone who doesn't.
	He said, what I like about universally preferable behavior is it's an argument for ethics that doesn't require that you plant a flag somewhere.
	And most people, they plant a flag and they think they're making perfect sense and this is where everyone who agrees with them starts from and they all agree.
	And then because you've planted your flag somewhere, you have to have everyone who agrees with you around you and you can't have people who disagree with you because it really destabilizes your foundational personality, right?
	At the bottom of personality is ethics.
	And when you start messing around with ethics, people feel like you're driving them insane.
	Like, they literally feel like it's an assault on their personality.
	And so you are learning the foundational principles of this type of thinking.
	And, you know, social justice warriors, damn bastards, I took your course!
	You know, something like that.
	Right.
	Yeah, and I've had several former friends of mine, including one teacher who I had, you know, and this is a Facebook thing, and I've gotten into, you know, little tussles back and forth, and I never meant any malice, and I assumed they didn't either, but lo and behold, come certain times or whatever, I had been unfriended and blocked, so I couldn't see whatever they were doing or whatever, and I just, that's just something that I took certain pride in.
	You know what I mean?
	I was just like, that's awesome, in a sense.
	They ran away.
	They did, right.
	And it's not even a victory.
	That's what you want in combat, right?
	In a sense, yeah.
	Yeah, and it's pretty – it's interesting because I never really got into the whole social justice warrior business until I moved up here.
	It wasn't prevalent where I was from before.
	I was from a town in Southern California near Los Angeles.
	And it wasn't as prevalent down there.
	But when I got up here, it's just all the rage with the Black Lives Matter and everything here.
	And it's like there was one kid in one of my first few days of university, first week, I'm walking to the train to go home after my day.
	And this guy comes up to me and he says, hey, let me talk to you about Black Lives Matter.
	I guess they had like a little kiosk set up.
	And I said, no, thanks.
	I've got to catch the train.
	Next day, similar situation, I'm walking by, same guy's there, and he, I want to say whispers, but he did it loud enough for me to hear it.
	Oh, there's the racist guy.
	And I look at that.
	Yeah.
	And I looked at that and I kind of went, what in the world?
	Because again, this kind of thing wasn't, you know, prevalent where I was from.
	So how in the world?
	And if I, you know, I probably would have stayed and talked to him if I didn't have to catch the train again.
	But, and then I went home and looked it up as you do the almighty Oracle of Google.
	And, um, And found out all this crazy stuff about the social justice warriors and the far leftists and things, which eventually led me to your channel when I was looking for...
	I think I even typed in the untruth about Donald Trump because I was getting sick and tired of hearing all the accusations that were baseless for...
	And your video popped up and that's how I got hooked on you.
	But anyway, it was just a huge kind of a wake-up call to what's really going on and how it is spreading because those friends I mentioned earlier were from that same town that I was from.
	And they had, I guess it had reached down.
	While I was flying up here, it was flying down there.
	We kind of crossed paths.
	And, you know, that whatever thinking had gone down there.
	So now it's everywhere.
	It's insane.
	It was just kind of, you know, just the wake-up call that kind of got me interested in all this was being called for business because I had to catch a train.
	Right.
	Well, you know, I mean...
	That's what frustrated people with short fuses do, is they'll just launch bombs at you.
	And the other thing too, as has been mentioned before by lots of people, the word racist only bothers people who are bothered by racism.
	In other words, it only bothers people who aren't racists.
	You know, if somebody – you go to the – call up a guy who's head of the Klan and say, you're a racist.
	He's like, yep.
	Yes, I think you've got your labels on correct there, sir.
	Anyway, I'm going to move on to the next caller, but I really appreciate your call.
	I hope this has been helpful.
	You focus on a big picture goal, the end result.
	Nobody likes going to the dentist, but in general, it's great to keep your teeth healthy and all that.
	You are going to gain a great deal of knowledge about people you may end up in significant combat with.
	And I think that's usually a pretty good...
	I learned a lot about leftism from professors that I had in school, whether they liked it or not.
	Okay, great.
	Well, again, thank you very much for your time.
	I appreciate it.
	And I want to once again thank Michael for everything he does.
	Oh, yeah.
	And Tim, send us some of your music if you've got any that we can listen to.
	I always like to follow up in the artistic life of the audience.
	Sure, if you like jazz, I'll send it your way.
	I do.
	I assume because you like order.
	There's no improvisation!
	No, I'm just kidding.
	There's nothing but.
	That's that learning the opposite of what you're talking about.
	That's great.
	So anyhow.
	Well, yeah, I'd like to hear it.
	So thanks, Emil.
	Thank you, guys.
	I'll see you soon.
	Take care.
	Bye-bye.
	All right, up next we have Yonathan.
	He wrote in and said, I'm a first-generation Ethiopian-American.
	My parents and some family members came to America for a better opportunity like all immigrants.
	Growing up I would always overhear family discussions about politics in Ethiopia.
	As passionate and sometimes toxic as these discussions got, the arguments were relatively the same.
	One side of the family is in favor of the current government, the other is not.
	With the knowledge that I now have listening to shows like yours and many others, it has puzzled me looking back how none of my family members, let alone Ethiopians I have met in general, have ever argued for a smaller government or a free market economy.
	My family members had to live through communism for a short period of time, and even the current government that overthrew the Communist Party is just a dictatorship disguised as a democracy.
	These people have felt and still feel the effects of what a corrupt government can do, and yet all they can argue is if the current ruling party should be replaced or not.
	My question is, why is it so difficult for Ethiopians to understand the importance of a limited government and having a free market?
	That's from Jonathan.
	You know, like the question said, you know, I always hear them talk about this, and it's just always puzzled me how it's always the same argument of, well, once we get a better person to come in, then everything will be better.
	But it's, you know, there's so many tribes and, you know, so many...
	We talk about multiculturalism.
	It's even worse over there because everybody's trying to get a hold of the state power and it just always becomes a mess.
	What happens?
	I assume you have some sympathy for the smaller government position, is that right?
	Well, I am an anarchist.
	So, yes.
	When I talked to my family about libertarian ideals, they just kind of put it in the same lane as being a Republican for some reason.
	Really?
	Yeah, it's weird.
	I don't know.
	Anarchist slash Republican.
	Boy, maybe I'll be called that one day.
	I don't know.
	No, I mean, yeah, I haven't told them that I don't believe in a government yet.
	I'm still trying to study it up a little bit and come up with better arguments for them.
	But for now, they just know that I'm a libertarian.
	So, okay, what are the responses that you get from sort of family and friends when you get this perspective?
	Well, you know, how is it?
	It's like, what type of questions, what type of...
	Well, you bring up like maybe the solution is less government or no government or whatever, and what do people say?
	If you bring that up?
	Well, you know, it's not realistic or it's not going to be possible.
	You know, the government's already too powerful.
	They control the army, they control the police, blah, blah, blah.
	If that type of thing would happen, it would be a bloodbath or, you know, something like that.
	Right.
	So...
	If everyone thought that, we'd still have slavery, which is kind of ironic.
	Have you been back?
	It's not really back, I guess.
	Actually, I visited there a year ago.
	During that year, of course, there was a lot of talk in the news about how the Ethiopian economy was doing really good.
	Its economic activity was increasing very well and everything like that.
	When I went over there, I felt a sense of, like, it wasn't, like, truly any growth.
	I mean, I don't know.
	It's more like a, you know, they built all these pretty buildings and, you know, they built this railroad, this railway station and train tracks and everything in the middle of the city for transportation and everything.
	But it just doesn't feel like a true sense of economic growth.
	It just kind of, you know, I think they just kind of, they just try to play it out that way.
	I don't know.
	Well, so there's economic growth and the government scoops it up for useless vanity projects, right?
	Yeah, you know, just to make it look pretty and everything like that.
	You know, there's still, you know, kids, you know, I saw, you know, I saw how many kids digging up on the side of the road.
	You know, I don't know what they were digging up, but you see tons of kids digging up on the side of the road.
	And you see actually trucks.
	They're like trucks full of kids.
	I guess they come from like villages out of the city.
	And they come in and do some work and they take them back or something like that.
	And God knows how much they get paid for what they do.
	But, you know, it's still sort of those type of problems still arise.
	But, you know, I don't know.
	And Jonathan, when you were over in Ethiopia, how long were you there for?
	I was there for four or five months.
	Oh, really?
	Yeah.
	I can't imagine a lot of direct flights.
	How long does it take to get out there?
	Well, yeah, mine was one-way, so it took around 14 hours, 15 hours.
	Right, right.
	And I was a tall guy, so it was so uncomfortable.
	How tall are you?
	I'm 6'2", but...
	Yeah, that's a little ugly for those seats, right?
	Which seem to be getting smaller.
	Oh yeah, and it's just getting worse for the tall guy, I tell you.
	Yeah.
	So, when you were in Ethiopia, did you mostly sort of hang around family and friends?
	Did you get out to talk to the average or general person in Ethiopia much?
	Yeah, I mean, you do get a sense.
	I mean, of course, you know, there are those who don't mind what the government does as long as the economic activity still grows.
	And then, yeah, those are mainly the people that I've heard a lot.
	But there are, of course, those who are just completely against the government, just want to change.
	But, you know, that sort of talk is kind of...
	How should I say it?
	It's discouraged because, you know, people might overhear and stuff might happen, you know.
	There's a lot of censorship going on in Ethiopia right now with journalists and everything.
	You know, they get jailed if their articles go against the government.
	So, you know, it's mainly people from out of the country that do articles and, yeah, do mainly articles and stuff about what the government is doing, blah, blah, blah, you know.
	Right.
	Just to drag a few facts, I'm sure that most of the listenership not well versed in Ethiopian economics.
	So, according to the IMF, this is from Wikipedia, Ethiopia was one of the fastest growing economies in the world, registering over 10% economic growth from 2004 to 2009.
	It was the fastest growing non-oil dependent African country in the years 2007 and 2008.
	Ethiopia had witnessed rapid economic growth with real domestic product GDP growth averaging 10.9% between 2004 and 2014.
	And there were big challenges between 2008 and 2011.
	High inflation, monetary policy inflation.
	Were you there?
	No, it was more recent that you were there, I assume.
	40% inflation.
	Yeah, the inflation is still bad over there.
	It's crazy.
	Right, and they cranked up the government pay.
	In early 2011.
	And let's see here.
	2011 to 2012, end-year inflation projected to be about 22%, but they tightened their monetary policy and now down to single-digit inflation.
	So, yay, Ethiopia is actually doing some sensible stuff with monetary policy.
	Yeah.
	I mean, like $1, I think, here over there is over 20 burr.
	I think I brought in $1,000 when I went over there as a budget or whatever.
	And over there I think it was like $10,000.
	At the time I felt so rich.
	I had never felt so rich in my life.
	It's almost like you're in Zimbabwe.
	Yeah, you know.
	It was an amazing feeling for those four or five months.
	For those four or five months feeling rich as I did.
	Right.
	And, you know, there's like 14 rivers pouring off the high table land, including the Nile.
	It's got one of the greatest water reserves in Africa, but few irrigation systems in place to use it.
	Just 1% is used for power production and 1.5% for irrigation.
	Now, you know, of course, they produced a bunch of major dams recently.
	Yeah, they do have a hydro, I think it's called a hydro dam or whatever it's called.
	Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam.
	Yes.
	The largest dam in Africa.
	When it's done, it can produce 6 gigawatts of energy.
	Yeah, and I have my reserves about that, but it's pretty controversial because Egypt has been having a lot of issues with the dam being built itself, and a lot of people are actually scared that there might be a war that might be caused because of this, because I think a lot of the water now that is going into Egypt is decreasing.
	As the dam keeps getting built and everything like that.
	Right.
	And telecommunications is a government-run monopoly, right?
	Oh, definitely.
	And they say, oh, it's to provide service to rural areas.
	It's like, nope, it's to control people's flow of information.
	And they control the internet as well.
	Actually, recently what happened was, what happened, you know, when you're a senior, you take a state test, a nationwide test.
	And basically the answers to that nationwide test got leaked.
	And basically what happened was the Ethiopian government shut Facebook and this app called Viber down.
	Actually, I think they basically cut off all internet communication but it just shows how much control they have.
	Right.
	No, it is very strong as far as that goes.
	Ethiopia produces more coffee than any other nation on the continent, which doesn't really matter because almost all of it ends up in my belly.
	But, of course, that's pretty big.
	Only 681 kilometers of railways, which is not...
	They are.
	Recently, they are starting to build a lot of railways.
	And this is, of course, with the support of China, because a lot of the economic activity that's going on right now, it's with the support of China and their workers.
	When I was over there, the first thing that I remember when I first got into the airport when I went to Ethiopia was there was a line of Chinese people all outside the airport.
	And I was just so puzzled because they looked so out of place.
	Right, right.
	Yeah, but they've been using the help of a lot of the Chinese engineers and all that stuff to get some of these railways built and working and all that stuff and make the roads a little bit better, I think.
	And I think in return, I think a lot of the mineral resources that Ethiopia has will go to China because of their increasing population or whatever.
	Yeah, so the economy has grown.
	But the income is not growing particularly, and that's because of huge population growth.
	So 1950, 18.4 million people in Ethiopia.
	As of 2013, that's 93.8 million, right?
	So almost a five-fold increase in 63 years.
	So that's a bit of a challenge as far as that goes.
	You know, languages, 90 individual languages spoken in Ethiopia.
	Yeah, I mean, like I said, you know, the multiculturalism over there is just so crazy, man.
	I mean, my, you know, and tribes are very important in Ethiopia, that's one thing.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and so, you know, when you have a state and when you have tribes, it's just, it's a bad combination.
	Yeah, everyone's trying to grab the power to impose on others and, you know, the usual nightmare that we've seen throughout most of human history.
	Yeah.
	Uh, big challenge, of course, do you know the average IQ in Ethiopia?
	Uh, no.
	Would you like to know the average IQ in Ethiopia?
	I can, I have my estimation.
	Please do.
	Around 75.
	That's good, a little high, 69.
	Ah, damn.
	Now, um, first of all, I want to tell you, Ethiopian food is fantastic.
	Yeah, actually my mom owns one where I live at, so, uh.
	Oh, I wish that were closer to my house.
	I gotta tell you, it is so good.
	Anyway, now, again, you know, environment, parasites, education, who knows, right?
	But if you want to know why limited government is a bit of a challenging concept where, you know, in the Ethiopian tradition, I don't know, obviously, all the details, but...
	You know, we've had experts on this show talking about how it's really tough to get limited government and democratic institutions running when your IQ of the general population drops below 90.
	Right?
	So, if we're talking 69, well, it's got a ways to go.
	Now, I don't believe that that's all biological or anything like that.
	There's probably 6 million other reasons why it's low.
	But until...
	The general intelligence of the population has brought a scope to improve.
	It seems unlikely that there's going to be the limited government stuff.
	Because limited government is this big giant deferral of gratification which isn't always a natural state of mind for people in that neck of the woods.
	Yeah, I mean, and then there's, of course, it doesn't make it any better that a lot of the intelligence moves out of Ethiopia and they go to all these...
	Like you!
	Yeah.
	Oh, you know...
	You bastard!
	No, I'm kidding.
	Right.
	Right.
	No, look, and I really, like, I get that.
	I mean, because, you know, it's like, part of me is like, well, stay and fix your own countries.
	The other part is like, what would I do?
	It's like, well, pretty much what you've done, so...
	I kind of get that as well.
	Of course, a lot of the Ethiopians who come here, they work hard, and they actually do send a lot of money out to Ethiopia.
	So I think one of the money that's being sent to Ethiopia from European countries or American countries or whatever, it's like in the billions, or millions or billions, I think, I don't know.
	But it's a lot of money, and it does help the families over there somewhat, but you know.
	I don't think it makes that much of an impact.
	And then, of course, I think the United States donates how many billions of dollars to Ethiopia each year just to secure the border between Ethiopia and Somalia and all that stuff and overlook Somalia.
	Well, of course, a lot of refugees from Somalia and other places are pouring into Ethiopia, which is a challenge and destabilizing.
	There is, of course, foreign aid, foreign loans and all that kind of stuff, which, you know, has been a well-meaning, I guess we could say nicely well-meaning Western country.
	Approach to problems, particularly in Africa, but has not solved problems.
	And of course, by fattening the state's coffers, it makes the state more of a prize to take over, right?
	Because all this foreign aid money goes to whoever's in charge of the government.
	So it makes it even more valuable for people to take it over, which can contribute, I think, to some destabilization.
	And I think what I read was that even the Ethiopian government tends to hold it over the people, because what they do is they use the money to buy a lot of the seeds and stuff for farmers to grow their crops or whatever.
	But what they do is they hold that money or the seeds or whatever over their heads and be like, if you don't support us, then we hold back all this money that we have for you guys to grow your crops and everything.
	And, you know, I think what I thought about it was like, you know, it's kind of like Ethiopia is almost like a welfare state for it.
	And, you know, just the welfare that they get from all these European countries is not even making it any better.
	So I think they should just stop donating totally and just...
	Well, I'd also like it if they stopped dumping all of this agriculture on international markets, because, you know, Ethiopian farmers could easily compete with a lot of the Western farmers, except that the Western farmers, because of subsidies and crap like that, just dump all of this stuff, not just in Africa, but elsewhere, which means it's pretty impossible for them not only to compete, but even to survive in their own environment.
	So, yeah, it's...
	Yeah.
	It's a big mess.
	But there has been, you know, just in 2000 to 2010, the number of Ethiopians living in poverty dropped by a third.
	Yeah.
	And that's, you know, now, unfortunately, you know, fortunately or unfortunately, it doesn't really matter.
	But the net result seems to be like, hey, we've got more wealth.
	You know what that means?
	Let's have more children.
	And then you kind of end up in that cycle.
	Having a lot of children is a survival mechanism because on my mom's side, it's like, I think my grandparents on my mom's side had eight children, nine children.
	And so I have like seven uncles, like three aunts and It's a survival mechanism.
	You know, whoever who's the smartest or whatever, whoever has the best job will be able to support the family.
	And it takes a while, right?
	So once the wealth increases, then the infant mortality tends to decline and more kids will make it to adulthood, which means you don't have to have...
	As many kids, because you're worried about war or famine, disease or whatever it's going to be.
	But it takes a little while for that to kick in and for the birth rate to begin to decline.
	And, you know, hopefully that will start to happen at some point because, you know, they keep having kids.
	It's not going to do a huge amount to increase the wealth of the country in the long run.
	Yeah, it's...
	I mean, I do have my hope.
	You know, there are some...
	There are people out there, I don't know, I forgot his name, but he's trying to overthrow the government.
	I don't know how well that plan is going, but he's trying to, I guess, collect enough support to try to overthrow the government.
	But a lot of people don't think he's going to be able to do that, but we'll see how that goes.
	Right, right.
	In 1992, the proportion of the Ethiopian population that was undernourished was 69%.
	Recently, it was clocked in at 41%.
	You know, that's 20 years is really good.
	Right now, we talked about infant mortality.
	It's one of the highest in the world, 68 per thousand live births.
	That rate has dropped 39%.
	and 2010.
	The under-five mortality rate has gone down by 47%.
	And, you know, community health systems, more than 35,000 healthcare workers out there.
	And, you know, so right now, one in 11 children in Ethiopia do not live beyond their fifth birthday.
	I mean, that's after all of this progress.
	And that 30% of all deaths of women ages 15 to 49 are pregnancy-related deaths.
	And so there is enormous progress.
	And, you know, this is something, you know, of course, I remember, like most people did, the images of Ethiopian famines and so on.
	Heartbreaking, horrifying stuff.
	I mean, from what my family members tell me, they say it was blown out of proportion in some ways.
	I mean, not blown out of proportion, but I think they just went to the hardest stricken areas because my family members had to go through it.
	And of course, it was bad for them, but it's not like they had skeletons on their...
	I mean, you could see their ribs or something like that, you know?
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, to raise the funds, they're not going to go and say, well, here's a relatively well-fed middle-class family.
	And, of course, I think that was during the communist days when Haile Selassie got overthrown by a communist party.
	And they took over for a little bit.
	And of course, they killed off a lot of the intelligent people.
	I think it's an event called the Red Terror.
	And I think what they did was they killed a lot of college students who were protesting the Communist Party.
	And they ended up massacring a lot of college students.
	And of course, that killed off a lot of the intelligence in the country.
	Yes, and of course, the famines in Africa are generally portrayed as natural disasters when a lot of times they're the result of socialist central planning and all of the inefficiencies and disasters that come from that.
	Like I just talked about today in a video about George Soros, the Chinese famine of the 60s under Mao and the Ukrainian...
	Famine under Stalin in the 1930s, you know, 20, 30, 40 million people died.
	But it wasn't a natural disaster.
	It was an engineered socialist disaster.
	And the same thing happens in Africa from time to time as well.
	And people are just like, oh, it's natural disasters.
	We've got to go give more money and the governments provide more foreign aid.
	In other words, the cure for socialism, more socialism.
	And things don't seem to improve in a sustainable way.
	But...
	More education, the degree to which you can get the word out there in Ethiopia to help people to understand the value of the free market.
	Obviously, it would be great if the society developed to the point where whatever environmental impediments there are to increases in IQ could be ameliorated and then people could get...
	a better society going and then more intelligent people would be more incentivized to stay which again makes a society has the potential to become better there is a virtuous cycle that can come out of this stuff that has not been happening as strongly particularly in Africa recently but that I guess that's that's the hope and you know I hope if there are people in Ethiopia listening to this and I'm sure that there are you know please feel free to call in and give us the the view from the ground Yeah,
	I mean, I only have a limited knowledge of a lot of what goes on in Ethiopia, but yeah.
	Still much better than mine, I'll tell you that.
	You've been there, I'm wiki-pillaging some.
	Oh man, and try going as a fat guy, because I'm overweight.
	And so when I went over there, man, you should have seen the stairs that I got when I was over there.
	Were there stairs and condiments?
	No, I mean, you know, I remember my cousins telling me before I went to Ethiopia, they were like, you know, being fat over there means a sign of wealth.
	And I thought, of course, that they were joking.
	But when I went over there, actually what they said turned out to be very true.
	And I had so many poor people and homeless people follow me everywhere I went.
	It was interesting, to say the least.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I've never been to that part of, I mean, I've been to South Africa and I guess Kenya, but I've never been to that neck of the woods.
	And I'm fascinated by all cultures and I would love to travel.
	More and and see this kind of stuff for myself because you know You can't get much of a flavor for a place by reading about it But I'm I find all of this stuff fascinating and you know, I have a great hope for the future of Africa, you know, I mean Obviously, you know, maybe there's some genetic basis is IQ stuff that can't be overcome but I still think there's a lot of places to go that are going to be a lot more functional and Now that a lot of the free market stuff has been developed by other thinkers, it should be easier to implement.
	Yeah, I mean, a lot of the people that come from Ethiopia to America, the people that I've met at least, they're hardworking.
	They know what it's like over there.
	They know what the situation is like to be poor and everything like that.
	So when they come over here, they have a hustler's mindset.
	They're trying to get it, and they do, with some of the people that I've met at least.
	Unfortunately, since English is their second language, most of them don't want to go to college because it's hard.
	But they still make it relatively well, despite not having an education.
	Well, and the other thing, too, I've noticed, maybe this has been your experience, too, Jonathan, but what I've noticed is that people who come from...
	A less free place to the more free West love the freedoms, like really appreciate the market, the opportunities, the stability, the relative lack of corruption.
	Compared to where they came from, it's like they're, like me, they're sort of kissing at the feet of Western liberties and appreciate it a lot more, of course, you know, like a hungry person appreciates the next meal a lot more than somebody who just ate.
	And that level of enthusiasm for liberties that most people in the West take for granted, I find enormously positive and refreshing.
	Yeah, and it's crazy because when I was little and I would overhear my parents, they would have, I should say, maybe negative things to say about African Americans.
	And I would always hate that with a passion because I was like, well, you don't know the struggle that they've been through.
	They've been through slavery.
	They've been through oppression and racism and all that.
	And I would just argue this.
	Of course, this was when I was like, you know, a little kid.
	But I would be like, you know, without Martin Luther King, you wouldn't even be here.
	And they would laugh it off and just be like, you know, we come from the same situation, maybe even worse from where they're from, but we're able to get to a certain point where we're relatively successful and our children are successful.
	But, you know, with the African-American community, of course.
	It's not the same story, but...
	Well, they've not had to suffer through communism like your parents have, right?
	Yeah.
	And did you...
	I hate to bring up racism because it just sounds like a pretty typical topic, but I'm just kind of curious because we've had some of the blacks from America on the show talking about their experiences of racism.
	Have you experienced much racism?
	Do you feel that that's a big barrier to you in the West?
	No, I've never experienced racism.
	And, yeah, it's...
	No, you have.
	You just don't know it.
	It's structural.
	It's systematic.
	It's invisible.
	It's ghostly white against the snowy background.
	I'm sorry, just kidding.
	You know, yeah, it's kind of like, I've never experienced that, and...
	It's something that everybody talks about.
	I remember when I was little saying, you know, some white guy said this to me or something.
	Because it was just this pressure that I felt that I was supposed to experience racism.
	You know?
	And, you know, I remember I would make up a story where I would be like, oh, well, you know, this white guy called me nigger.
	And, you know, of course it wasn't true.
	And I regret saying that.
	But there's this pressure to, you know, if you're a black person, you have to have experienced some sort of racism.
	And I always felt like, you know, well, I've never really experienced racism, but, you know...
	It's, you know, I'll just make something up to be with the people, you know, to connect with them or something like that, you know?
	Right, right.
	Like, I mean, there's that, I don't know, pretty funny scene in some Eddie Murphy movie where one of his black friends, the waiter offers them asparagus spears.
	Uh-huh.
	And the guy's like, asparagus spears.
	You know, he didn't just call it asparagus.
	He's saying spears because he thinks we're savages like we use spears.
	And it's just like, okay, that's very creative.
	Yeah, you know, and, you know, when it comes to Ethiopians in general, I mean, just the ones that come from Ethiopia, there is a sort of negative view towards African Americans.
	And it can be borderline racism at times because, of course, you know, there's that typical immigrant argument where, you know, I come from nothing.
	I come over to America and I made all this.
	Why are you still in the same situation?
	Complaining, blah, blah, blah.
	You know, English is not my first language.
	And, you know, and I remember actually, what was it?
	I remember watching this movie by Ice Cube.
	It was called Barbershop 3.
	And...
	There was a scene in the barbershop where they have this one Indian actor and he's the only immigrant, the only Indian guy in the barber, I mean, the only immigrants in the barbershop.
	And of course everybody's talking about racism, blah, blah, blah, and then...
	And then the Indian guy says, well, you know, my parents came from India with nothing and they came to something and they became something.
	And then one of the ladies was like, well, your people chose to come here.
	My people were forced to come here.
	And then I was the only one laughing in the theater because that argument was just so ridiculous.
	And then, of course, the Indian guy just slowly puts his head down and he's just like, you're right.
	I mean, he didn't say specifically, he didn't say you're right, but there was just this silence.
	And then they just moved on to the next conversation.
	But it's just that type of argument that always comes about.
	Yeah, I mean, it's not directly equivalent, of course, but I was brought to Canada against my will when I was a kid.
	I didn't want to leave England, but that's what the family did.
	And it's not obviously the equivalent, but we can all come up with some sad story about history that excuses the present.
	Anyway.
	All right.
	Well, listen, hopefully this helps.
	You know, still keep struggling as best you can to get better ideas across to the mothership as, you know, I think if you know the culture and have some understanding of it and have been there for a while at times in your life, I think you'll have a credibility that will help.
	Again, if people are in that neck of the woods and want to call in and let us know here or let the world know what it's like on the ground there, fantastic.
	It is great to read.
	You know, this is one of the great unsung victories of the past couple of decades is the number of people who've gotten out of poverty is in the hundreds of millions around the world.
	And it is incredibly heartening.
	It is incredibly positive.
	And it's hard for people who have a more pessimistic view of the future to understand just how incredible the progress against poverty has been recently.
	And I appreciate you for bringing this topic up, not directly, but allowing us to talk about it, because it is very encouraging and very positive.
	And it just goes to show that, you know, even if you're starting with a population with an IQ of 69, you can still get 10 percent economic growth year after year if you've got some capacity for people to self-organize along market principles.
	So let's just see how far we can take that and how wonderful the world can be.
	So thanks, Jonathan.
	You're welcome to call back anytime.
	And I appreciate the conversation.
	Thanks, everyone, so much for tuning in to Free Domain Radio.
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