Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

July 27, 2016 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:06:06

3365 The Death of Identity Politics - Call In Show - July 22nd, 2016

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Hello, everybody.
	Hope you're doing well.
	Stefan Molyneux from FreeDomainRadio.
	FreeDomainRadio.com slash donate to help, help, help us out.
	Please, please, we need your support to continue to grow and to continue to do all the great good that we're doing in the world.
	FreeDomainRadio.com slash donate.
	The first caller wanted to talk tonight about identity.
	You know, identity politics and how the left uses identity to slice and dice humanity into warring factions ruled by, hey, did you guess right?
	The left.
	Which is a very interesting topic.
	And the second caller wanted to know what the future was of white people in South Africa.
	Is it going to go full Rwanda, or is it going to settle into something more stable?
	And of course, we've got a presentation called The Truth About South Africa that has more detail in this, but we went over some of the signs of where things might be going.
	The third caller is a husband and wife who got very active in the GOP Colorado convention, where there was this move to steal delegates away from Trump, and we did a presentation on that, and they got...
	Got kind of thrust into the limelight, into the national stage.
	Lots of reporters talking to them and lots of attention.
	And they really did get to see how the media operates.
	And wanted some advice on how to survive and flourish when you are known in the public sphere.
	And so, had a good conversation about that.
	Yes, I've had just a little experience in that area.
	So, we're going to do a great show.
	Have a great show tonight.
	Please remember to follow me on Twitter at Stefan Molyneux.
	And, of course, you can use our affiliate link at FDRURL.com.
	slash Amazon.
	Alright, up first today we have Vector.
	Vector wrote in and said, With matters of race, sex, and sexuality at the forefront of progressive politics, otherwise known as identity politics, it begs the question, what is identity and what criteria defines it?
	Also, what distinguishes an identity from a category?
	It seems that not even the progressives know as any attempt to characterize an identity is met with an accusation of discrimination.
	So if all we can say about an identity is what it isn't, for example, a woman is not a man, or a black is not being a white, is it anything at all anymore?
	That's from Vector.
	Oh, hey Vector, how you doing?
	Well, if you allow me to indulge myself for just a second.
	Yay!
	I like the entrance.
	I like the entrance.
	Oh, I'm thrilled.
	It's a great set of questions.
	It's a great question.
	And do you want to expand on this as a whole?
	I could, but if I did, I would be here for about five hours.
	So please go first.
	I like that.
	It's either 30 seconds or five hours.
	No Aristotelian mean for us!
	Ever!
	No.
	Right.
	So there's a contradiction, to me at least, in identity politics.
	Which is, we should focus on gender...
	But there's no such thing as gender.
	We should focus on race, but there's no such thing as race.
	We should focus on sexual identity, but it's very amorphous and we can't really focus on it.
	So it's sort of like saying, Vector, my goal for you is I'm going to turn you into a boxer and you need to box fog and beat fog.
	It's like, well...
	What is it?
	And this is a great challenge.
	And as far as race and gender and sexual orientation go, this is sort of the big three.
	There are obviously biological components to gender, right?
	There are biological components to race.
	And there are biological components to Sexual orientation.
	And, you know, these, obviously, all differences do not then result from biology because there is environment and there's philosophy and there's parenting and there's culture and there's so many things layered over that.
	But there are these differences.
	And there are differences in behaviors.
	And the left's goal is to convince everyone that all differences in outcome are the result of prejudice and nothing innate.
	Like the famous one is the gender gap, which has been debunked so many times that anybody who brings it up is now officially in the category of willfully self-blinded idiot.
	Because yes, it's true, women earn less than men on average, but that's not because of sexism.
	Hey, there's more men in prison than women.
	That's not merely the result.
	The gender pay gap, as we talked about in this show many times, is the result of choices that women make.
	And they make those choices often in conjunction with their husbands and so on, but women choose to work more part-time, they choose to take more time out of labor force to raise children, which is great!
	We should celebrate that and think it's a wonderful thing.
	And that is the result.
	So this is a perfect example of the combination of Of biology and choice.
	So the biology is that women become big with child, squirt them out in incomprehensible manners, and then drip boob juice into their mouths for, you know, hopefully a considerable period of time.
	And that is the biological reality.
	You know, a man's contribution is only four and a half hours of tender lovemaking, followed by hibernation.
	But the woman, of course, Has and breeds and has and grows and gives birth to and is disabled and episiotomies and things that make me nauseous or nervous.
	And then, of course, women breastfeed and then women get pregnant again, you know, sort of biologically.
	That's the way it used to work, at least before birth control.
	So that's the biology.
	And as a result of that biology, there are choices that women make that are different than the choices that men make.
	And not all women and bloody blah, but in general.
	And that's why there's There are biological differences between the races that we have talked about before and there are biological differences between the choices that are made through homosexuals and heterosexuals and all those in between or outside of that continuum or however you want to put it.
	So there's biology and then there are choices that are influenced by that biology and then of course there are choices that are independent of that biology.
	Biology.
	And the left wishes to make everything a choice and refuses to believe that there's anything biological and all discrepancies in outcome must be the result of prejudice.
	That the only reason that women make less than men is because the sexist patriarchy wants to pay them less.
	At the same time, they say that capitalists are so greedy.
	But of course, if capitalists are so greedy, then they should want to hire women that they only have to pay 75 cents on the dollar because it's cheaper to hire women and they can exploit those women.
	And of course, that would raise the demand for women and would thus bid up the price of women and blah-de-blah-de-blah, right?
	So, this idea that all discrepancies in outcome must be the result of prejudice Creates a perfect, fertile, bottomless, eternal, endless breeding ground for resentment.
	Ah, resentment.
	One of the most beautiful and flowering plants in the human panoply of exploitation.
	All differences in outcomes must be the result of prejudice.
	That way, since there are biological differences, there are always going to be differences in outcome.
	Guess what, everyone?
	There are always going to be differences in outcomes, no matter what.
	And if you say that all differences in outcome are the result of prejudice, and you are never going to be able to eliminate the biological differences between various groups, what that means is...
	It's so delicious.
	It is a bottomless, endless market where you can sow the seeds called resentment and raise the crops called state power.
	Because, look, if you're not doing as well as someone else, there are two kinds of people who are going to come along.
	Guerrilla mindset for the win, but there are two kinds of people who are going to come along.
	The first is the kind of person who's going to come along and say to you, stop crying, try harder.
	Stop crying.
	Try harder.
	If you're being out running the race, get up earlier and train harder.
	Eat better.
	Work more intelligently.
	Get a better coach.
	Do something to get better.
	And those kinds of people are really, really annoying.
	Have you ever had, Vector, have you ever had someone in your life who's...
	I've given you that.
	It's the Don Corleone thing in the beginning of it.
	It's the only reason, I think, why that movie is fundamentally...
	That and the comment about Hitler, but, you know, Don Corleone, the guy's crying, he's like, slaps him in the face.
	What are you crying for?
	What are you, some kind of girl?
	Well, in fact, I didn't have that kind of person, so actually I had to find you, and then you were that person for me.
	Right.
	But was it annoying sometimes when I sort of shake people by the scruff of the neck and say, stop crying, try harder?
	Yeah, shut the video off, tell Stefan to shut up, mumble under my breath, wake up the next morning, and then, you know, see what else you have to say.
	If I had a dollar, Vector, for every single time, if I had a dollar for every single time, I got the message that goes something like this.
	Stef, Stef, Stef, Stef, originally you just annoyed the living crap out of me, and I don't even want to tell you what my girlfriend thought of you.
	And then, I was just listening out of a sick fascination just to see how annoying and defensive you could possibly be.
	And then, I can't remember if it was me or my girlfriend, you said something, it was like, click.
	Whoa, hey, hang on.
	That actually makes a little bit of sense.
	You can see this in YouTube comments.
	I almost never agree with this guy, but he's banging on the money this time.
	It's like, well, I have the same methodology all the time.
	So, if I'm...
	If I'm bang on on this one, maybe it's not me being bang off on the other one.
	So, wow.
	I would say that those are one kind of people.
	The kind of people that are going to come, it's not like they're not sympathetic, but basically they're saying, hey, you know what?
	You're going to die.
	You're going to die.
	Death is going to dance his way on top of your grave.
	He's going to do the chicken dance.
	He's going to do the Macarena.
	He's going to do lots of stuff and you'll have dusty, bony footprints on your decaying skull until the end of time.
	So why didn't you get something done now other than whining and complaining?
	Now, don't get me wrong.
	Whining and complaining, half their place.
	I'm not sort of one or the other.
	But those kind of people who come along when you're not doing well and say, try harder, or for God's sakes, just quit.
	For God's sakes, just quit.
	I was in a couple of garage bands when I was younger.
	And this is back when the police were big.
	And Sting, you know, unless you're a castrato or John Anderson, but I repeat myself, it's kind of tough to keep up with that countertenor.
	He's mellowed a little bit as he's aged, but it was a...
	You know, like Madonna on helium at the beginning.
	And I couldn't do it.
	I couldn't do it.
	And listening back when we would record stuff and listen back to it, be like, wow, that guitar's really good.
	Drums are pretty good.
	Bass is nice.
	That singing.
	Ooh.
	Ouch.
	Right?
	And so, you know, quit.
	You know, I mean, I like to sing.
	I've got a sort of an okay amateur voice.
	But, you know, I am not pop star material.
	And...
	So, you know, do better or quit.
	Now, of course, I could have taken up some other instrument if I wanted to get into music and all that.
	I did play the violin for 10 years and learned some piano.
	And I tried guitar for a while, but apparently I have Donald Trump hands, as they say.
	So anyway, and I just didn't really enjoy it.
	So do better or quit, those two things.
	And so I've had a number of people in my life who have said...
	Do better or quit.
	And they're great.
	Now, the other people who will come along in your life when you're not doing as well as everyone else, or you're not doing as well as you want to, they'll come along and say, it's other people's prejudice, you're a victim, it's not your fault.
	And they bathe you in this sea of relief.
	I have an answer as to why I'm not doing well.
	I have an answer.
	And Lord Jesus God above!
	Spaghetti Monster-O above!
	It's not me.
	And it gives you this relief.
	And we all have this, you know, we have this balance in life.
	And we don't want to give to ourself a responsibility we do not have.
	I was a great fiction writer, and I didn't get published because of cultural reasons.
	I think that, I mean, I believe that that's a true statement.
	And so that...
	Means it's not that I'm a bad writer.
	It means that there were cultural reasons, which I've talked about before, why my novels didn't get published.
	Or why my books wouldn't have gotten published.
	I mean, 150,000 downloads a month, eh, pretty popular.
	But nobody would publish them.
	For cultural reasons and philosophical reasons and, you know, other kinds of things.
	So...
	Those people who come along and say, it's not your fault, well, they can be helpful in that if I had continued to struggle to try and write fiction, when the culture, you know, art is downstream from philosophy, just as politics is downstream from art, as the late Andrew Breitbart would say, it wasn't going to do me any good to continue on in the fiction world.
	It just wasn't.
	And so that's a quit situation.
	And try and fix the problem, which is to have better philosophy so that, you know, when I'm old I can sell books.
	That's the whole point.
	The whole point of this!
	It's one giant literary endeavor cloaked in a multi-decade philosophical ramble.
	So...
	So, yeah, there are times when, yeah, it's not your fault, and you need to quit, because there is prejudice.
	You know, I mean, I experienced prejudice as an objectivist in school.
	I experienced prejudice as an objectivist writer, mostly of fiction, in the literary world.
	And, you know, when was the last novel that came out that was like Ayn Rand's?
	It's 1957.
	It's starting to feel like quite a long time ago, because it is.
	What is that...
	Crazy, 59 years ago?
	It's a long, long time ago.
	So anyway.
	So there are times where you experience prejudice and you need to figure out something else to do, and that has occurred.
	In the business world, there were times when I needed to do better, where I got dragged down into fixing tiny problems instead of getting a major product out into the marketplace.
	And the people who came along, I wouldn't say kicked your ass, that's kind of like a cliche, but the people who come along and say, there's a reason for it.
	You need to do better.
	Now, when I was in the art world and I was experiencing the prejudice that comes against objective, rational, philosophical thinkers in the art world, I needed to do better.
	And doing better meant leaving the art world.
	Which, yay, you know, I went into business as an entrepreneur, loved coding, loved software, and did that for many years.
	And then left the business world for a variety of reasons that I don't want to get into here, but...
	And then ended up doing this, and that's because I wanted to do better.
	And where there is prejudice, you just change what you're doing.
	You have to change.
	I mean, you either sort of try and get in there and tough it out, but, you know, you can't, because you can't make people publish you.
	And back in the day when I was doing all this stuff, there was no real self-publishing options, and certainly no distribution options that were easily available, like what's going on on the internet these days.
	And so...
	You do better, and you do better by saying, you're like water going down a hill.
	You hit a rock, you go around it.
	You find some way to express yourself, to find a way to get your ideas out into the world, whether it's through art or dance or poetry or music or business or speeches or philosophy or political reasoning or whatever it's gonna be.
	Find some way.
	Find some way.
	Just be the water going down the hill.
	Find a way.
	Where there's a will, there's a way.
	Give a man a why, and he can bear almost any how, as Nietzsche says.
	That is important.
	Now, the left come along and say that it's not your fault.
	You're surrounded by prejudice.
	You can't win.
	And they create the problem they claim to solve.
	They create the problem.
	I mean, if you tell women they can't get ahead because of sexism, then they're less likely to work hard at their career.
	Why bother?
	Why I mean, if it's all rigged against me and it's all patriarchy and big giant penises blocking my way for no particular reason or enjoyment, then why bother?
	I might as well leave on time.
	I might as well enjoy my social life.
	I might as well get married, have kids, take time off, whatever it's going to be.
	Okay, so self-fulfilling prophecy.
	And if you can say to people, like if you can say to people, disparate outcomes are always a result of prejudice, and by getting them to believe that, you create wider disparate outcomes, this is why the left never solves the problems that they claim they want to solve.
	Has the left solved the problem of racial disparities in outcomes between Asians and whites and blacks in particular?
	No.
	They're widening in some instances.
	Have they solved the problem of disparity between men and women?
	No.
	Not at all.
	Have they solved the disparity that homosexual men make more money than heterosexual men?
	You don't hear a lot about that, right?
	Homophobic planet, that's why we pay gays more, because I can't count.
	So yeah, it's beautiful.
	It's beautiful for them.
	That's what they do.
	They create the problem they claim they want to solve.
	And of course they don't want to solve it.
	That's like Coca-Cola investing billions of dollars trying to figure out how to get people to overcome thirst or sugar addiction.
	And so this identity politics, it's never designed to be solved at all.
	It's not designed for people to come to a final solution and figure things out.
	Because as soon as any kind of gaps start to narrow, the left rushes in and convinces more and more people of the prejudice of the environment, which demotivates more and more people and causes the gap to widen again.
	So it's never designed to be solved.
	It's designed to mine resentment.
	And that's why you have this weird thing where they say, gender doesn't exist, race doesn't exist.
	Okay, if these things don't exist, then how do people know to be prejudiced?
	If they don't exist.
	You know, ghosts don't exist, which is why very few people are prejudiced against ghosts, right?
	Ghostbusters, maybe.
	Second gen, but not ghosts themselves.
	So, that is...
	Kind of important.
	They have to convince people that these things don't exist.
	Because that's the only way they can sell the lie that all disparate outcomes are the result of prejudice.
	These things don't exist.
	But somehow they're foundational to society as a whole.
	And this is of course a massive paradox.
	And it mirrors certain religious constructs where religions will say that free will doesn't exist because God knows everything but you're responsible for free will.
	Race doesn't exist, so all expressions of racism are irrational.
	So we shouldn't be racist about something that doesn't actually exist.
	And this is why they steadfastly attack and avoid anyone who points out differences based upon biology, differences based upon even culture.
	Even culture.
	It all has to be externalized.
	And there are people who are so thirsty for external justifications for their own failures that there's always, at least under the current situation, there's always going to be A market for that.
	Always going to be a market for people who just want somebody else to take responsibility for their own failures.
	And wouldn't you know it?
	It tends to rise with the rise of single mothers for reasons I don't think I even need to go in.
	Hey, somebody else is responsible for the disasters in my life.
	Well, you grow up with a single mom.
	That's all you hear!
	For the most part.
	So it's not surprising that political correctness and single motherhood rise as one.
	All right.
	End of rant.
	What do you think?
	Well, I think you're right.
	But I think you have the causality completely wrong.
	It freaks me out to even have to say that.
	I remain intrigued.
	Please, explain.
	Well, the thing is, we have to go back to the question.
	We need to define what an identity is.
	And if we can do that, I think the answers will come.
	So what is an identity?
	What is it actually?
	What does it describe?
	What's the criteria that we need to have an identity?
	Well, it depends what you mean.
	Like, the definition according to whom?
	Well, I don't know.
	Give me an identity.
	Just name one.
	Anyone.
	Female.
	Female.
	Okay.
	That's a human, female, XX chromosome, right?
	Now, is that an identity or is it a category?
	See, this is where we need to create the distinction.
	I mean, say the female dies.
	Is her identity female still?
	I would assume, yeah.
	But is she Carolyn, who she was in life?
	Is she still a healer, even though she's now a skeleton or something like that?
	I would assume no, right?
	Right, we're getting all kinds of epistemological down in here.
	Yeah, I know.
	We're going to have to.
	I mean, this is the way I look at it.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	I don't mind doing these categories, although the intro to philosophy, I think, does a fairly good job of them.
	For the left, a category is something to be sliced and diced until people are so dizzy they throw up in a corner and hand over money.
	Right?
	Because, oh, a woman is this.
	Ah, okay.
	What if she's a lesbian?
	What is that?
	Oh, what if she's a man trapped in a woman's body?
	What if she's bisexual?
	What if they do?
	They just keep slicing and dicing these definitions until nobody knows which way is up and you get guys taking pictures of women in bathrooms.
	I don't think they actually do that, though.
	I mean, yeah, of course, this can be a woman and that can be a woman.
	I think the only thing that the left will actually maintain is that woman as an identity exists, but you can't define it.
	And to try to define it is sexism.
	It's the same with black.
	Black as an identity exists, but if you try to define it in any way, shape or form, you know, if you try to link it to a belief or a behavior or an outcome of behavior, something we normally link to identity, you're called a racist.
	Right?
	Okay, so let's take these one at a time.
	So I think the left would say that race exists as surface features.
	You know, like you don't paint a Lamborghini and suddenly end up with a minivan.
	You change the paint on a Lamborghini, it's just a different colored Lamborghini.
	The car is exactly the same, it's just a different color on the outside.
	So I think the left would say that all external characteristics exist, obviously, in terms of race.
	But internal characteristics remain the same, and in particular, the brain is identical, must be, according to the left, must be identical across the races, just as the brain must be identical across the genders.
	And fundamental life choices around children must be identical across the genders, because they have, like, whatever actual factors might Influence and outcome must to the left be erased so that they can maintain the grievance industry that relies upon disparate outcomes only resulting from prejudice.
	So obviously they'd say that a man and a woman have different sexual reproduction organs, and they'd say internally, of course, the man has a hungry belly and the woman has a womb and all these kinds of things, right?
	So internally, but the brain is identical.
	And the life choices must be identical, and wherever the life choices are not identical, it's the result of prejudice from sexism and so on.
	So they would say that there are surface differences, there may even be internal differences, but those internal differences stop at the neck.
	Human brains are interchangeable among races and genders and so on, but everything can be different outside of the brain.
	The brain must be identical.
	Right.
	So then where is the identity then?
	If he's just black, that's physical features, whatever.
	If that's just a woman, again, it's just physical features.
	Well, I think that the leftists would say that the identity of a black person is largely the result, maybe even exclusively, but it's largely the result of white racism.
	Well, of course they do.
	But I think there's a certain reason for that.
	But I have to define identity the way I define identity.
	So can I do that now?
	Can I define it?
	I think an identity is a description of an agent's exercise of agency.
	That's what I think it is.
	So the criteria that determines their agency are their beliefs.
	Sorry, give me that sentence again.
	I just want to make sure I really get it.
	An identity is a description of an agent's exercise of agency.
	So an identity is a description of an agent?
	Of an agent's exercise of agency.
	Boy, you may have post-moderned up that mother a little bit.
	Oh, I'm trying not to.
	It's just I've spent so much time doing or watching Karen Strong.
	An identity is a description of an agent's...
	What was the rest?
	We'll put it this way.
	An identity is...
	No, no, no.
	Just give me the sentence again first.
	A description of an agent's exercise of agency.
	Okay.
	Now, I put it the other way, which is an identity is a description of an actor's exercise of their actions.
	If that's simpler.
	Same thing.
	Okay.
	I'm not sure that that gives me much in terms of illuminating the issue.
	Well, because then we have to ask ourselves if, like, the way I look at it is a category is reserved for objects and Identity is a type of category, but it's particular to agents and the thing that's particular to agents that distinguishes them from objects is agency.
	So the way I see it is identity describes their agency.
	And our identity, the way we control our agency, our actions, our intentions, they're founded on beliefs, which then create actions and then we can observe the outcomes of those actions.
	Essentially, an identity is basically a role.
	Like a healer or a leader, electrician, doctor, philosopher.
	It even lends itself to characteristics like humility, arrogance, I don't know, tyranny, malevolence, all of it.
	I don't think we can wind it into occupation, though.
	Okay, sure, occupation is, like, super particular.
	I get that.
	Yeah, I mean, if the doctor is an identity, then what is the doctor when he's on vacation?
	At night time, or when he's not doctoring, or when he's retired, or what was he before he became a doctor?
	I think that's tough to make that case.
	Sure, there'd be certain distinctions there.
	That's fine.
	But say, healer, for example.
	An identity, I'm a healer.
	Does that follow?
	Well, again, before you became a healer, what do you do when you're on vacation at nights, weekends, when you're not working, after you retire?
	You still have an identity, right?
	Well, why does the identity have to be this continuous thing, right?
	I mean, if we're just going to say identity is just who you are, period, then...
	Well, because I don't think that there's no vacation from being a woman, right?
	There's no vacation from being Hispanic, that you don't sort of, well, you know, I clocked in at 9 o'clock this morning as a white guy, 15 minutes I get to be a space alien, and then at lunchtime I get to be a lizard man, clocking back in as a white guy in the afternoon, and then on my way home I'm growing some tentacles.
	Right, I mean, I can't change...
	I sleep, I wake, I mean, I'm just white.
	I mean, and some would argue...
	Right, so that's different.
	I can't retire from being white while I'm still alive, right?
	Yeah, like, I mean, white, I guess the color of your hair, so long as you don't dye it, your jeans, that kind of stuff, those are mutable or immutable.
	You can't change them, right?
	You're stuck with them.
	Those, I wouldn't say those are identities at all because I don't think they influence your beliefs, your behaviors, or any of your actions.
	Ah, well, no, no, no.
	See, the left would argue that me being white Does influence my beliefs.
	And it is an interesting thought experiment, and I've done it like other people have.
	I first read a book called Black Like Me about a guy who basically dyed his skin black and traveled through the South, and it was a very interesting book.
	How would I be different if I was white?
	I mean, obviously, people have tried the reverse, you know, Beyonce, Michael Jackson, all bleaching themselves into Casper the Friendly Ghost territory.
	But it is...
	I question to what degree is my thinking and my experience of the world influenced by being white.
	White?
	White.
	Sorry, the way people talk about Jared Taylor and his pronunciation of white, which I find extremely charming.
	But anyway, so I think the left would say that, and this is what Simone de Beauvoir said, She was the wife, I think, of Albert Camus, an existentialist philosopher, which means depressed and manic.
	And while she was intermittently surrendering him to join in threesomes with his graduate students, you know, back in the day when that stuff was not so much frowned upon.
	And she said, in the second sex, she said, she opened up the book by saying, okay, so I had to talk, if I want to talk about myself, what's the first thing I'm going to say?
	I'm going to say, I'm a woman.
	And that's the very first thing that I would say.
	And, you know, I don't wake up in the morning wondering if I've grown a juicy set of double D's overnight.
	You know, nature's just doing that as I age.
	But masculinity, I mean, it's in your body experience.
	You know, men are almost always aware of their own penis.
	And, you know, it's hanging out down there.
	It's doing its thing.
	It's wending its way around.
	And when we speak, right?
	I mean, our voices are deeper and have a greater timber and so on.
	And it's one of the first things that people notice about you is race and gender.
	And it may have some degree in conditioning how people respond to you, right?
	There was that old Saturday Night Live cartoon, it's time for androgyny, it's Pat, right?
	It was, didn't know if it was a male or Or a female and people didn't know which pronoun to use.
	They didn't know how to interact with or react to that person because they didn't know their gender.
	And there's this little boy thing going on, which I see if I take my daughter out to a park or something like that.
	There's a little boy thing going on.
	I don't know if it's just rare or if it's, you know, a thing.
	But, you know, it's, let's look like girls.
	You know, it's like, let's grow her hair long and let's look like girls.
	And it doesn't matter to me hugely, but I just, you know, if I was a woman, if I was a different race, How would I experience the world differently?
	I mean, I won't particularly now.
	I could put on...
	I don't know.
	I could try it, I guess, and be a tall, handsome-looking lady.
	But I think that gender and race do have something to do with how we experience the world.
	I mean, when men cry, they get scorn.
	When women cry, they get white-knighted.
	I mean, there's just this fundamental difference based upon the scarcity of eggs and the omnipotence of sperm...
	Omnipresence of sperm.
	And so I think there are differences and we certainly can see in the world how various ethnic groups get treated differently.
	We can certainly see in the world, as I've talked about in shows before, how women get treated differently in the justice system and in other places.
	So I think it does have something to do with your gender and your race, how you experience the world.
	And particularly white males' experience of the world has kind of been banished.
	You're a white male, man!
	Right?
	I mean, it's been kind of banished from the world for quite some time.
	And I think a lot of the resurgence of, you know, after Gamergate and maybe even some of the alt-right, to some degree, that's an attempt to bring this perspective back into public discourse.
	So, I don't know if that had added anything, but those were just the thoughts around my brain.
	Well, what I got from that was that identity was...
	Something that's basically foisted onto you by other people.
	Like you said, it's the experience of men and how if they cry, they're treated a certain way or how women are treated a certain way too.
	No, no, no, no.
	No, that's not what I said.
	I said that men and women are treated differently to some degree and maybe even largely because eggs are more valuable than sperm.
	So male disposability is because you get one man and 30 women, you can rebuild civilization.
	The other way around, it's going to be a little tougher.
	And so I didn't say it was foisted upon me by others.
	It reflects other people's interactions with me, but those interactions with me are not just by choice, but there is biology involved in how people interact with me.
	Yeah, of course.
	So, say we'll take the way that people tend to treat women because eggs are valuable, right?
	So they have the belief that eggs are valuable, and so it changes their action for the purpose of preserving the eggs, right?
	And maybe their chance to pass on their genes.
	So, again, we have this thing where if you're going to create an identity for someone, or how are you going to perceive it, whether it's man or woman, whatever, you have a belief, and then it influences your actions towards a certain purpose, towards a particular outcome.
	It's the same if you see like a healer, right?
	You believe they have a certain intention and then they go and they fulfill some action.
	That's your standard for healing.
	And if it creates the outcome, you said, yeah, he was a healer.
	Or if he didn't, if the person died or something, you could say, well, he meant well.
	Whatever, right?
	Yeah, what is it?
	Hospital errors and medical errors, like the third leading cause of death for people these days.
	Don't go to my doctor or whatever.
	That's why I don't work there anymore.
	So when I say that an identity is a description of an agent's exercise of agency, I mean, any identity that we try to foist on someone, right?
	I mean, can we agree that it's a belief you have?
	Regarding something, regarding the purpose of woman or the purpose of man or whatever.
	If you believe that men are disposable, then you have a certain purpose for them, right?
	They're supposed to be the protectors of eggs and they don't matter as much as women because of fertility for women, blah, blah, blah.
	It's always a belief that generates an action and all towards a purpose.
	And I think it's that every single time we create an identity for someone.
	I can't find any I can't find a break in that cycle, except for particular ones that I think we'll talk about in a bit.
	I don't know what you mean by creating an identity for someone.
	Well, I mean, you're talking to me right now, right?
	I mean, what do you think a man is besides his genes?
	You'll say, well, a man is, and you'll go on to say what your beliefs about masculinity are, and it influences how you treat men, create certain actions, and it's for some purpose, right?
	No, but the purpose is always moral.
	The whole purpose of identity, at least as the left has hijacked it, is to create moral categories.
	Right?
	Right.
	So white males are sexist, racist, homophobic, right?
	That's the general, even though, of course, to judge anyone collectively is really bad.
	Oh, I know.
	So we're going to judge you collectively.
	So it is, because the question is, what is the purpose of all of this identity definition?
	And I talked about it earlier in terms of there's a market for people who don't want to take responsibility for their own lives.
	But the state drives this stuff because the state drives identity politics because it funds identity politics.
	And identity politics, particularly on the left among the Democrats and the Labor Party and so on, they're always fomenting divisions and disparities and race grievances and gender grievances and all of that.
	Because it pays.
	They get votes and then they deliver money and so on, right?
	I mean, so if you can convince a group of people who have money that they're bad and the way that they can be good again is to give you money...
	Well, enough about Catholicism, but if you can convince people of that, that is a very profitable business model.
	You're bad, but I'll give you temporary forgiveness if you give me money and power.
	And so in the States, they can afford the inefficiency that comes from badly allocating resources.
	In the free market, it would kind of wear out pretty quickly.
	You know, we just talked with Charles C. Johnson, who shorts companies who have big diversity initiatives.
	Not because he's against diversity, but because it means that they're putting something other than worker productivity at the forefront of their company, which means that they're going to drive good people out and generally accumulate less productive people.
	And so it's around moral.
	The profitability is moral categorization of people.
	Women, good victims.
	Men, white males, bad patriarchal oppressors.
	And then why do people do that?
	Well, Who benefits, right?
	Que bono and follow the money.
	It's because if you create an uneven playing field with, right, the sort of inverse, right, the women go up, the men go down in moral evaluation, but the money actually goes the other way, right?
	I mean, the money goes from the men to the women, or from the whites to the blacks, or the whites to the Hispanics, or the Asians to the whites, whatever it's going to be, right?
	I mean, in that, I'm talking more about in terms of college entrance scores being adjusted.
	And so identity is simply a...
	It is the new religion in that you can make people feel bad and then take money from them in order to make them feel better.
	And all that does is make everything worse.
	So it's a perpetual cycle of escalation of resource transfers until, well, the inevitable math catches up with you.
	Yeah, now that's how the left uses it.
	But I want to know what you think identity is.
	I want to know what you think.
	I just have a question which is...
	Why would I care?
	I mean, if something's being used really badly, like by the left and guilt and all that kind of stuff, then why would I? I mean, I've got something going on right now, which is trying to combat all the lies and delusions and collectivization of judgments, right, of the sexism and the racism that's going on from the left about white males in particular.
	So I've got that going on.
	And so I, you know, that's got to be dealt with.
	If we're gonna have a free and peaceful future.
	So as far as what is it like in the absence of that, I mean, why would I care?
	The free market.
	The free market will figure that stuff out once we get the government out of pitting us against each other through identity politics.
	Yeah, well, at the risk of sounding absolutely crazy, I think the answer to that actually solves that problem.
	I really honestly do.
	Wait, the answer solves the profitability of using state power?
	No, no, no.
	The answer to what identity actually is, and then from there how the left is misusing it, and provably, demonstrably misusing it, will help you guys.
	But that's like saying you can solve the welfare state with charity.
	You can't, because the welfare state is...
	I'm happy to hear the case.
	It's just that the state is the state.
	They've got a lot of weapons, and I don't know how a better philosophical answer magically makes that go away.
	Well, because remember before when you're talking about the left, it's always about they're coming around and they're telling people that all differences and outcomes are an effect of some other person, right?
	There's some other thing acting on you.
	It's all oppression.
	You're a victim, blah, blah, blah.
	Some other group.
	Exactly.
	Not a person.
	It's a group.
	Yeah.
	Well, the thing is there's a desire to believe that among people that take it in.
	I mean, before when you were saying it, you said they're getting convinced, and yeah, I imagine some people are convinced of it, but there are several people that just want to believe it, and the media is telling them exactly what they want to hear.
	And so for me, the question was, why do they want to hear this?
	And I think the reason is because they don't understand how their identity works.
	And because they don't understand it, it allows them to see themselves as victims almost instantly the moment they're suggested that they should be one.
	But now I have to get into it, and it'd probably take a while to explain it all.
	Well, no, no.
	I mean, you're saying that there's some abstract ignorance that drives this hunger for these collectivist politics, and I don't think that's true.
	I think there is.
	That's why I wanted to get into identity, because I think that we have a different understanding of it.
	Now, when I say we, I mean anarchists, conservatives, libertarians are vastly different from socialists or, I guess, cultural Marxists, if you want to call them that.
	Because they have the same thing in common.
	It's ridiculous.
	You look at the entire progressive stack, and I mentioned sex, sexuality, and race.
	But there's other ones.
	Listen, Vector, I've got a suggestion for you, because I don't want to have a five-hour show again, so here's what we should do.
	Tell me about it.
	But if you have the desire and the belief to say that if I get, speaking as you, if I get the correct definitions and understanding of identity out, this will solve the left's use and misuse of identity politics to pit people against each other for fun and profit.
	Then what you need to do is not talk to me, but talk to the world.
	So you need to write an article, you need to record it, you make a video, whatever it's going to be, put it out there and And see what the effects are.
	Because if you're saying, my beliefs are going to have this effect in the world, there's no point talking to me about it.
	The whole point is to go out and put those beliefs in front of the world and see if they have the effects that you predict.
	Well, what I was attempting to do was seek opportunity, right?
	Because I figured this information is something that you want, right?
	Well, I'm skeptical of the value of creating a better definition of identity to solve the left's use of it.
	So the best way to do that is for you to create the definition, or not create, to identify the principles that you want to get behind.
	And I'm not trying to brush you off or dismiss you.
	I'm an empiricist, right?
	I don't believe that these are going to have the effects that you believe that they will, but I'm always open to evidence, right?
	Every rational person bows to evidence first and finally.
	So put your definitions together.
	Put them out in an article and send it here.
	We'll help get the word out and we'll get lots of people exposed to what it is that you're doing and see if this starts to unravel the left's addiction to identity politics.
	Obviously, it would be great if it could.
	I am skeptical.
	Maybe that's professional jealousy.
	It could be anything, right?
	Well, actually, I attached it with the email I sent to Mike, so you should actually already have a little bit of it, at least a summary.
	Okay, well, you know, boil it down and do as much as you can and we'll see if we can get the word out to people about what it is that you're doing and get a discussion going.
	But I'm not sure that I'm more illuminated than when we started.
	And after an hour, if that hasn't, I've kind of got a rule that if I don't understand someone by 45 minutes, it's either they're bad at explaining it or I'm just not getting it.
	In which case, the better thing to do is to take your ideas and, you know, you can use this platform to help get them out into the world and we'll see what goes from there.
	Yeah, that's fair enough.
	I suppose the call is over.
	Can I add a little thing?
	Sure, I love little things.
	Thing it up.
	The next time you see a feminist, either online or on TV in real life or something, and they're saying that women are being oppressed or they're being, I don't know, sexually objectified, whatever, you just have to ask them how they know.
	And, you know, they'll tell you, oh, they're this and that and the other thing.
	But say, no, no, no, I don't want you to tell me how you know they're being oppressed or sexually objectified.
	I want you to tell me how you know it's a woman you're talking about.
	Yeah, I think that's very interesting.
	That's a good point.
	I lifted up the skirt and there was an echo.
	All right.
	Well, thanks, Vector.
	I appreciate the call.
	I do love wrangling on these abstract topics and let us know how your work comes along and we'll see if we can help get it out.
	All right.
	All right.
	Take care, man.
	All the best.
	Alright, up next is Dimitar.
	Dimitar wrote in and said, As an immigrant of a post-communist country, I find myself living in another communist country where the anti-white sentiment is at an all-time high.
	In light of all the recent anti-white media propaganda worldwide, do you believe that South Africa is headed for a full-scale genocide, as was the case in Rwanda in 1994, Or are you to believe that the current government is more akin to Zimbabwe, where the government was more interested in chasing the whites out than a full-on murder spree?
	That's from Dimitar.
	Hi, Dimitar.
	How are you doing?
	I'm good.
	How are you doing, Steve?
	I'm doing well and hopefully doing good.
	And, boy, out of the frying pan, into the fire.
	How the hell did this come about?
	Well...
	I believe that you and I have a sort of similar history in that at the age of 9 or 10, my parents just basically said, okay, well, we've had enough of this country, we're packing up our bags, and we're going somewhere else.
	Now, after the fall of communism, basically the economy of most Eastern European countries was in total shambles.
	There was hyperinflation and all kinds of other problems, as you would expect.
	My parents sort of saw all the necklacing and people striking in Soweto, and they said, well, that would be a good place for me.
	Sorry, just for those of my listeners who don't know what necklacing is, why don't you give them a little bit of a background on what that is.
	Okay, so necklacing is basically when people take...
	A tie from a car, and they fill it up with petrol.
	They put it over some unfortunate person, and they light it on fire.
	And it's a godforsaken way to die, right?
	I mean, it's just beyond horror.
	It's absolutely horrific.
	And I believe that method was introduced by Winnie Mandela.
	Yeah.
	And so, yeah, it's absolutely horrific.
	And I mean, these images were plastered all over Bulgarian TV, and I believe TV worldwide.
	I'm not sure how much of it you guys were exposed to.
	But we saw pretty much most of the rides there.
	And my parents just basically said, well, that seems like a good place.
	Let's go there.
	So, okay, fine.
	My father came here first.
	My mother came here then.
	And I spent about a year with my grandparents.
	And then I came here with my sister as well.
	And I must admit that in the first couple of years when I came to South Africa, I actually enjoyed it quite a lot.
	It was still more or less a first-world country.
	Was that in the 90s?
	That was in the late 90s, yeah.
	I came here in 96, 97.
	And for the first five or six years when we lived here, it was an absolutely fantastic Place to be in.
	People were much, much friendlier.
	I mean, it was like worlds apart from where I came from.
	Sorry, we've got the truth about South Africa as a presentation people can listen to, but it's a couple of years after the formal end of apartheid, right?
	Yeah, correct.
	My father actually came here just before apartheid ended, and I came here just after.
	So, in the mid-2000s, things started to change.
	And that's where I started sort of following the news a little bit more.
	And I started sort of seeing...
	Sorry, give us a sense of how things began to change.
	Well, for once, as you outlined in your presentation, They put a stop to the commandos which protected white farmers in the rural areas around 2002, excuse me, around 2003.
	And I think that for me was a big warning sign of things to come.
	Now, my grandparents were very communist.
	And at the same time, my grandfather always told me, don't trust the government.
	So I already came from that background.
	Now, I followed the news very closely and I saw what the government was doing.
	They stopped reporting crime on race.
	You know, crime statistics stopped being reported on race.
	They took away commandos.
	The news sort of became a lot more focused on, you know, racism, this, racism, that.
	You know, white racism.
	I mean, there's just so many examples that I cannot mention all of them.
	But it's slowly sort of like that old example of you put a frog into a boiling pot of water and you just slowly raise the temperature.
	That's exactly what started happening.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Sorry, you got that a little wrong.
	You don't put the frog into a boiling pot of water.
	If you put a frog into a boiling pot of water, it'll jump right back out.
	But if you put it in lukewarm water and heat it slowly, it will end up dying.
	And there's the gradual change...
	It's what gets you not something sudden.
	Absolutely.
	I just wanted to point out as well why we've paused.
	Between 1960 and 2015, the value of gold Only increased 33 times relative to the US dollar, but increased nearly 570 times relative to the South African Rand.
	So there was a huge devaluation of the currency, with all that means in terms of one's ability to import and inflation and general economic mess and dislocation and misallocation.
	So I just wanted to point that out, that there's a lot going on economically at the same time as well.
	Yeah, sure.
	Absolutely.
	I'm not quite sure why that happened.
	Can you maybe give me a little bit more detail as to why that whole devaluation of the currency happened?
	You know, I don't know all of the reasons behind it, but my understanding is that there was capital flight and white flight from South Africa.
	And so a lot of money left South Africa and the last thing if you say apartheid is the reason we're poor and then you get rid of apartheid and people get poorer Well, that's kind of a blow to the thesis, right?
	And so what you want to do is start printing a lot of money to pretend that you still have money and that you're not getting poorer after driving away a lot of white people.
	You're not getting poorer.
	Because if, you know, these guys spent, I don't know, 50 years or 40 years saying white people are the reason we're poor and then white people leave and everyone gets poorer, well, they're going to feel like real idiots, to put it mildly, right?
	I mean, oops!
	That's not the issue.
	And then what they have to do is say, sorry, white people, please come back, right?
	Because, you know, since 1960, the consumer price index, South African prices have risen 72 times.
	Not 72%, 72 times.
	That would be 7,200%.
	And that's the consumer price index.
	So, yeah, whenever the economy starts doing badly, they just create money and pretend that there's wealth, right?
	I mean, the same thing happened in 2007, 2008.
	America, when the economy cratered, they just printed a whole bunch of money and handed it out like candy to pretend that there was still wealth around.
	When things have been really messed up, government prints money to pretend that it hasn't.
	And so, you know, you get rid of apartheid because you promised paradise afterwards.
	And when paradise fails to materialize, but in fact life expectancy begins to decline, incomes begin to decline, the infrastructure begins to decay, power starts to go out.
	Well, what are you going to do?
	You're either going to say, we made a mistake, or you're going to double down.
	You know which one the governments always do.
	They just double down.
	You know?
	Well, we thought we hated the whites when they were in charge.
	Man, do we ever really hate the whites now that they're not in charge?
	You know, we really thought we were poor because the whites were running things.
	Now that we're poorer and the whites aren't running things, it's because of white people that were even poorer.
	Like, when they were in charge, we were poor.
	Now we're poorer, they're not in charge.
	It's their fault more than ever, and all that kind of stuff, right?
	So...
	It's the usual double-down.
	Ideologists simply can't admit that they're wrong.
	And to some degree, it's the fault of the leftists.
	I hate to sort of have the one-note piano piece, but leftists, they work to destroy anyone who talks about race and IQ. And in sub-Saharan Africa, you've got an average IQ of 70.
	Wow, that low?
	I thought it was around 80.
	Well, it may be different in South Africa because of interbreeding.
	But Sub-Saharan Africa as a whole tests at around 70.
	And again, because of miscegenation and European genes being mixed in maybe is higher.
	But you can't.
	You can't run a democracy.
	You can't run an industrial society.
	With that, right?
	And that's why you get, in 2014, unemployment.
	8% of whites are unemployed.
	Do you know what the unemployment levels are for blacks?
	I think it's around 35%, isn't it?
	Yeah, 40%.
	Yeah, 40%.
	So, more than 400% higher.
	35%, if you believe the state media.
	But, I mean, I'm sure it's closer to 50%, actually.
	Because, I mean, these guys report...
	They believe that people with temporary jobs are employed.
	Whether it's 35 or 40 doesn't usually matter.
	It's a huge gap.
	So 3.3 million people in South Africa, that's only about 6% of the population.
	6% of the population contributes 99% of all income tax revenue.
	There are 16.4 million recipients of social grants, so 31% of the population.
	There are five people on welfare for every taxpayer in the country.
	Yes.
	That's crazy.
	20% of South Africans don't make enough money to sustain their daily caloric intake.
	It's like they're with Bear Grylls on an island somewhere.
	The biggest chunk, 70% of social grants go to welfare moms in the form of child support.
	So, you know, without the K cap, it's gone full R selection, and that's where it's going to head.
	Now, Where does that end up?
	Well, if you're told that the only reason you're ever poor is because of white racism, well, the poorer you get, the worse the whites must be treating you, right?
	71% of children in South Africa live in households where neither adult, no adult is employed.
	Not one adult.
	71% of children live in households.
	Not one adult is employed.
	So if the general statement is blacks do badly because of white racism, then the worse blacks do, the more racism they must be experiencing.
	That's the basic calculation, right?
	So the worse blacks do, in general, the more angry they're likely to get at white people.
	So where that ends, well, I don't know, but I would say it doesn't really matter because I'd be long gone before it gets anywhere close to the end.
	Well, absolutely.
	I mean, we have an exit strategy and everything like that.
	But I must admit that I've become very Africanized and, you know, I've sort of grown very fond of not just South Africa, but Africa as a whole.
	So, I mean, if push came to shove, then I would have to, you know, move somewhere else.
	Forget the fact that moving in itself is like starting a whole new life somewhere else.
	But, you know, it would be sad for me to leave the country.
	So, that is sort of why my...
	Yes, but better in a plane than a box.
	Yeah, yeah.
	No, I agree with that statement, definitely.
	So, South Africa is only the size of Texas and California put together.
	And in the past decade, 14,000 and change Americans were murdered in one...
	Right?
	In this time frame.
	And...
	200,000 people in South Africa, right?
	So that's 17,000 people a year.
	Just in 2013, 17,000 people were murdered in South Africa.
	And even though South Africa is only about the size of Texas and California, that's more than the 14,000 Americans murdered during 2013.
	Yeah, so you can already see a very high, violent rate of 50 murders a day.
	50 murders a day.
	Yeah, I mean, that's...
	An additional three murders apparently go unreported.
	It's feral in a lot of ways, and it's a brutal place.
	And look, I sympathize.
	I really sympathize.
	But you can always change your accent and say you lived in Australia.
	And bring a giant spider to prove it.
	Look at these bites!
	I think if you get hyena bites, it's similar to a spider bite in Australia.
	I'm not going to continue this topic.
	It's going to give me bad dreams.
	But...
	Yeah, New Zealand's nice.
	A friend of mine just came back from New Zealand, and we were chatting on the phone today about his experiences in New Zealand, and according to Lord of the Rings, it's a beautiful place.
	You know, obviously, orcs is a huge problem, but New Zealand is something to look into.
	Okay, no, we're busy looking.
	We're looking at Canada as well, maybe come through there as well.
	Yeah, look, there's many options.
	There's many options.
	It's just, you know, after immigrating once, you sort of get a little bit tired of immigration itself.
	But yeah, let's see what happens in the future.
	And hopefully it's a little less dramatic than I imagine it to be.
	You mean the future in South Africa?
	Yes, yes.
	No.
	No.
	I don't have a way of telling the future.
	But biology plus ignorance is destiny.
	Yeah, and history tends to repeat itself.
	So, I mean, if you look at all the other African countries, Sudan, Central African Republic, Rwanda, all of these countries, and you can sort of see where Where are we going to end up?
	And you know, the Black Lives Matter movement says absolutely nothing about 272 people died in Sudan the other day.
	And I'm not hearing anybody protesting that.
	No one, ever.
	No, of course not.
	Of course not.
	And you know, it upsets me to no end to keep listening to all these murders all over Africa by Boko Haram, by all these other groups.
	And you never hear any, you know, one guy, one cop kills some black guy in America and it's blasted all over the news.
	But you never hear anything about these government murders all over Africa.
	No, no.
	Look, in one year in South Africa, 23,000 children were raped.
	10% of all the rapes in the country are committed against children who are under three years old.
	Did their lives matter?
	Of course, I mean...
	I mean, look, let's not even get started on race-baiting in the U.S. It's got nothing to do with Black Lives Matter as an idea, in which case they'd be saying, hey, where are blacks suffering the most?
	Let's go and deal with that.
	But no, they don't want to do that because that doesn't serve the political agenda of getting the Democrats into power.
	And it goes against the narrative, right?
	Because, you know, places like Haiti and other places where Haiti was never a colony, and It has been relatively self-governed for like 400 years.
	It should be a paradise.
	There's no white racism keeping all those people down.
	But it is...
	Detroit should be a paradise.
	Black chief of police, black mayor, black...
	I mean, it should be fine.
	And you know what's funny?
	You never read in the history books about the white genocide that happened in Haiti.
	I mean, that's something that I just found out about recently.
	Do tell.
	I don't know much about, if anything, about the white genocide in Haiti.
	Let's school the listeners and me.
	Okay, well, I'm not going to go into too much detail about it, but it basically occurred about 400 years ago, from what I remember reading from the article.
	And it was basically a retaliation by all the French slaves in Haiti.
	That basically, you know, they organized an uprising, and they said, we've had enough of being slaves.
	They organized an uprising, and they basically killed pretty much all of the white people on the island.
	You know, I tell you, I get that that's not particularly just, but, you know, if you're going to enslave people, I hate to say it, but if you're going to enslave people, there can be blowback.
	And, you know, that to me is a little tougher to get us outraged about.
	But there are, I mean, if you look at the way that the Boers are treated and the farmers are treated, it's crazy.
	I mean, it's twice as dangerous to be a white farmer as it is to be a police officer in South Africa.
	Murder rate 99 per 100,000, that's three times the murder rate of South Africa.
	Because again, you see, why are we poor?
	It's because those white people own the land!
	It's just goading up a whole set of hatred against all of this, these people, right?
	And, you know, apparently it's illegal to incite hatred in countries, but this incitement of hatred against whites doesn't, or cops, you know, apparently that doesn't count, right?
	Okay, but in the case of the Boers, I also find it funny that they failed to mention that government actually owns most of the land, not whites.
	I mean, Whites own very little of the land.
	Maybe they own most of the arable land, like the farmable land.
	If you drive through the country on many occasions, you just see miles and miles and miles of land that's just empty.
	I mean, it's beautiful, but it's empty.
	And that land belongs to the government.
	Why the government isn't giving that land to the blacks and letting them stay there or do whatever the hell they want with it, I don't know.
	But why the whites are being attacked for owning bits of farm here and there is a mystery to me.
	I'm all for that.
	Forget the fact that They didn't really own any land, and they cannot prove that they owned any land.
	They don't have any deeds or anything like that.
	They just basically have these vague stories that, oh, my ancestor owned this piece of land or that piece of land.
	Forget about that.
	They cannot prove in any way that they owned anything.
	When the Whites came here, I believe that they were just sort of little tribes here and there.
	And the Whites basically, whatever land that they could find that blacks were on there, they basically bought the land from them in one way or another.
	Similar things happened to the natives in North America as well, but go on.
	Sure, sure.
	So, yeah, I mean...
	When you say that we own the land...
	Dude, you're trying to bring reason and evidence to the situation.
	I don't think that's particularly warranted.
	My bad.
	Listen, I get that, but you're mistaking the world for yourself.
	When you've got President Jacob Zuma, President of South Africa, recorded, you can find this on YouTube, singing a song which contains its lyrics...
	Kill the farmer, kill the boar!
	Imagine!
	Imagine the president of America saying, bomb the ghettos, kill the blacks!
	Imagine him saying something like that.
	And then the blacks would be saying, well, you know, we've got this, Evan, we've got these deeds.
	It's like, I don't think you understand the situation that you're in.
	I don't care if you've got your deeds when people are saying stuff like that.
	No, absolutely.
	And it's a totally emotional topic that no one looks at the facts.
	And I get it.
	I'm just way overthinking the situation.
	No, you're hoping you don't have to re-uproot and you're hoping you don't have to change things up.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Look, I understand that.
	I completely and totally understand that.
	But...
	You have to be cognizant of reality, right?
	Especially, I don't know if you have kids or want kids, but it's not just you if you want to be a father.
	It's not just you who's going to have to live with your decisions over time, right?
	I mean...
	Yeah, well, I do want kids.
	Me and my girlfriend, we've spoken about that a couple of times and maybe in the near future.
	But in South Africa, I don't see me raising any sort of kids at all.
	I mean, I can't even imagine what it's like walking through a forest.
	When I was a kid, I used to play outside until the sun went down.
	I can't imagine doing that myself, and I'm an adult.
	I can't imagine doing that on the street.
	I live in a gated community with barbed wire and security.
	It's like a maximum security prison.
	But I don't want to raise my kids in that sort of environment.
	If I do have kids, it's going to have to be somewhere else.
	I guess you could call it an anchor baby.
	Right, right.
	Yeah, so those would be my suggestions.
	It does not look like...
	I mean, certainly, you know, on the internet, those of us who care about Race relations and everybody getting along as much as possible, they're bringing as many facts at the table as possible, because without facts, all we're going to have is resentment and rage and violence.
	And the conversation is opening up a little bit, but it's not going to occur in time, I think, to give you a particularly habitable environment.
	Yeah, yeah.
	No, I agree.
	I agree.
	And that is why I have an exit strategy and so on.
	But, you know, you have given me hope.
	And I say that as a reformed leftist.
	I mean, I was also raised by a single mother and there was a lot of communism and leftism and a lot of liberal crap that filled my head growing up.
	So I had to confront a lot of these beliefs head on and sort of Change my way of thinking and become more of a conservative to actually look at the real world.
	Look at what's actually going on in the world.
	And, you know, people like you and Alex Jones and other people like that have sort of given me a little bit more hope in humanity after all of the horrors that I experience here almost on a daily basis.
	I mean, not personally, but I mean, if you read the newspapers here every day, it's like a It's a tragedy, and it's something that I remember noticing as a teenager, that the better the climate, the worse the politics, so often.
	It's such a pity though, don't you think?
	Yeah, but you know, given what we know about R&K, it's not shocking, but...
	Yeah, yeah, I agree.
	Okay, I'm going to move on to the next caller.
	Will you let us know what you decide?
	Definitely, definitely.
	Thank you so much for taking my call and really appreciate your show.
	And I think that you guys have changed many people's lives in ways that you can't quantify.
	And yeah, just keep up the good work.
	And thank you very much.
	Thank you very much.
	And keep us posted.
	And thank you very much, you know, as you say, a former leftist for giving us the time, for giving us the time to convince you.
	And that speaks very highly to your intellectual integrity.
	Thank you.
	Thank you so much.
	So, all right, let's move on to the next caller.
	All right.
	Well, up next is Matt and Aaron.
	They wrote in and said, on April 10th, my husband and I found out that our Colorado State GOP convention.
	No, that's that's sorry, Mike.
	They wrote in and said, our children are more important than your show.
	We have to get our children to bed and that's more important than, you know, sorry.
	Let's be clear, Stefan.
	We said our children were more important.
	We wrote differently.
	Alright, I'm just going to say one thing to your kids, alright?
	Okay.
	Kids, wake up!
	Bubby and Daddy are having all the fun in the world and they're making you stay up in your bedroom all alone where there are monsters under the bed.
	Great.
	We'll pass that on.
	All right.
	You can play that at 3am if you like.
	That will not be included in the parenting book.
	All right.
	Sorry, Mike, you were saying in some productive manner.
	On April 10th, my husband and I found out that our Colorado State GOP convention had resulted in all our state delegates bound to vote for Ted Cruz.
	As Trump supporters, we were shocked and angered.
	Later that night, with my husband's courage and my millennial know-how, we created a website calling for the protest of the Colorado GOP and the rigged system that silenced the will of the voters.
	The next day, our website was linked live on the Drudge Report, and what resulted was the most exciting, terrifying, and life-changing week of our lives.
	We spent the next couple of days doing interviews for national and local media.
	Our interactions with the media were interesting, to say the very least, as they never seemed to know how to report on intelligent, educated, upper-middle class Trump supporters.
	The reaction from our family and friends was also amusing and revealing.
	Some of our most conservative family members were critical, while some of our most liberal were supportive.
	The protest we held on April 15 was a success.
	It reinforced the evidence that there were political forces at work to suppress the will of the people.
	Donald Trump himself wrote an editorial the day before the protest deriding the quote-unquote election that occurred without the voters.
	It has been difficult dealing with the feeling of exposure that has come with national media attention.
	Do you have any advice for maintaining our courage to speak up for a righteous cause as time goes on?
	That is from Matt and Erin.
	Oh, hey guys.
	How you doing?
	Good.
	Do you mind if I just indulge myself one more message?
	One tiny more message to your kids.
	Sure.
	Hey kids, your parents haven't told you this, but there is a dog with scissor legs who lives in your cupboard.
	And he's called...
	Mr.
	Eyeballbiter.
	All right, that's all I wanted to mention in my inimitable way.
	Actually, you know what?
	Again, you guys are going to do fine.
	I'm going to have bad dreams about scissor-legged dogs.
	But anyway, so, well, thanks for calling in.
	Do you want to, like, I don't know how to take this in terms of, do you want to talk a little bit more about some of the machinations that were going on in Colorado?
	I mean, we did a presentation on it, which we can link to below, but do you want to talk to people who may be out of the loop about what was going on?
	Sure.
	Yeah, we actually watched your presentation a couple times to prepare for some of the interviews.
	Plagiarism!
	Good, I'm glad.
	It laid it all out, you know, very concisely.
	So my husband has a more...
	He would be better able to lay out the whole thing, I think.
	Well, Aaron is a very passionate person, so...
	I was more sanguine.
	I saw it coming because I've been a Republican.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	I got confused.
	You said, Erin was a very passionate person.
	I thought you were going to tell me how many kids you had, but that's a different matter.
	Let's just keep going on with the delegates.
	So I've been through the Colorado system.
	I knew how it worked.
	I was not surprised at the outcome, merely disappointed.
	Erin is more fresh-faced to politics, so she was very angry.
	And when millennials get angry, they turn to the Internet.
	And so what she did is put up a Facebook post saying she was going to protest.
	And I have no idea where he got it, probably on Reddit, but Drudge linked it.
	And of course...
	He liked the Facebook post?
	Yes.
	Yeah, he linked the Facebook event.
	From his main banner.
	Wow.
	That man, does he sleep?
	Yeah, really.
	Exactly.
	Wait, wait, someone posted something on Facebook.
	I can't go to bed yet.
	Someone's still wrong on the internet.
	I think the leftists are now blaming Matt Drudge for not defeating Trump, but all of that's off topic.
	It became a sensation.
	People were calling, the media was calling asking, who are you guys that you're putting on this protest?
	Are you some huge organization?
	Are you a super PAC? Are you connected with the Trump campaign?
	And it's just me and my husband in our little home office, like, what did we just do?
	This is...
	Terrifying.
	Having a big effect working from home.
	I wonder what that's like.
	Erin, do you mind if I ask you a completely indelicate question?
	Sure.
	You posted it on your Facebook page, right?
	I created a public Facebook event.
	And did you post your picture anywhere there?
	No.
	Okay, just checking.
	Because, you know, Sometimes that can have an effect in terms of how photogenic you are as far as whether the media is interested in you or not.
	I actually think that did have an effect.
	No, no, go on.
	If you've got something that backs up one of my theories, we're not moving on until we talk about it.
	Oh, absolutely.
	I absolutely have to back up that my wife is hot.
	I mean, come on.
	That looks good on me, too.
	Everybody knows that guys' hotness is entirely judged by the attractiveness of the women they can pick up.
	In my case, it just has to be income.
	A guy's hotness can be related to his income.
	That's right.
	I used to do sit-ups.
	Now I just invest.
	But anyway.
	So the media is, of course, inherently lazy.
	So they had this link to follow and this person to call.
	So that's what they did.
	I mean, they just...
	Everybody from NPR... The local affiliate news stations.
	Reuters.
	Reuters.
	The Hill.
	AP. Right, so rather than try and figure out everything that was going on, like why the Colorado GOP tweeted, we did it, never Trump.
	Rather than figure all that stuff out, they just would rather have you explain stuff, right?
	Right, but they would call me and they would say, oh, I see you're doing a protest.
	Yeah, I'd like to do a story about this, and I'd like it to be about how there's dueling protests, because there's going to be another protest in support of the GOP. So that's my angle.
	When can I interview you?
	And I was like...
	Oh, wow.
	So they're really telling you the kind of the part they want you to play in their weird little psychodrama, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	Let's play Trump and anti-Trump people fight.
	Pow!
	Right, okay.
	Interestingly, when we didn't give them the quotes they wanted, and I'm sure you can find it, I think it was Seven News did a story in which they interviewed the leader of the pro-GOP protest.
	They interviewed us in our house for probably two hours and they used one statement that I made.
	And then the rest of the interview was with another anti-Trump guy that looked crazier so that they could emphasize that Trump people are crazy.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Oh no, I... I can imagine the media trying to portray someone as crazy because they don't understand the arguments.
	Okay.
	And then the day of the protest, the media's pictures for record were almost all taken before the protest actually started.
	One of the people we met there at the protest who we've kept in touch with.
	Wait.
	Hang on a second.
	I'm sorry.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Yeah.
	Sorry.
	I just want to understand this.
	So there's a protest, and they want to come down and take pictures of the protest, but they arrive there before everyone else does?
	That's correct.
	So, that's like me saying, you know, I'm going to the movie theater, Star Wars is opening at like 7pm, like the new Star Wars film is opening at 7pm.
	I go there at 7am, take a picture of the empty theater and say, Star Wars film, a total flop!
	Yep.
	That's exactly what they did, yes.
	Yeah, so the next day, all the stories that came out were underwhelming attendance for GOP protests, you know, maybe 100 people.
	I looked up all the articles, and they were, you know, maybe 200 people, but we were there.
	And the media left after the first half hour, and there were 500 or 600 people there.
	And that's not just us.
	She's not just saying, oh, 500, 600 because she's inflating it.
	We had police presence there, obviously, with a protest on the steps of the Capitol.
	The police have to be informed.
	And we informed them and did all the right things.
	And I talked to the police captain in charge before we left.
	I said, oh, how many people do you think we had?
	He said probably a little over 500, maybe six.
	And they all came there to see Erin.
	They did.
	She was definitely the prettiest girl there.
	I understand.
	And one more kid on the way.
	Can I just break?
	Can I share with you a dream?
	I'm going to share with you a very, very tiny dream.
	Here's my dream.
	My dream, guys, is that one day we go to the library, go to the library, and we say, I want to read something from the mainstream media.
	Newspaper, magazine, anything from the mainstream media, even the website.
	Where do I find it?
	And the librarian looks at me and says, that's the fiction section.
	That's my dream.
	No, none of this non-fiction stuff.
	And maybe it's in the fantasy section, but it sure as hell isn't in the nonfiction section.
	All right.
	So go on.
	You have 500 people there.
	That's fantastic.
	Yeah.
	And they do this with the Trump speeches too, right?
	They show up early.
	They photograph half-empty seats and they say, no, nobody cares about Trump.
	That's why they never turn the cameras around.
	You see Trump mocking the – never turn the cameras around because they don't want to show how many people are there.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, it was sad because they left after the first opening remarks and they didn't film any of the people actually protesting or any of the people making speeches or sharing their stories.
	The last guy there was this flamboyant Mexican guy from Telemundo in this bright, shiny purple suit.
	And he was my last interview, and that was it.
	And I have to give credit to Telemundo, and this sounds weird, but honestly, they probably had the most unbiased report on this.
	It's all in Spanish, but...
	And I think...
	So, you have to remember that Colorado was when Trump...
	The narrative was that Trump wasn't holding together.
	Never Trump was going to win.
	It was going to be a contested convention.
	You know, Trump was going to fall apart.
	So I think they wanted to spin the narrative that way.
	Oh, look how small Trump's support is.
	Oh, look how irrelevant it is.
	I think that was the spin they were going for.
	That was their story.
	And I got to tell you, that's funny because that is what...
	Would sway leftists, but it doesn't sway conservatives.
	Because conservatives are so used to being the odd person out and the only person in the room with those opinions and not having a big social backup.
	Like, well, you know, Trump really isn't very popular.
	And so for leftists, we'd be like, oh, well, there's got to be something wrong with the guy.
	But for right people, it's like, for people on conservatives, they're like, all right, I'm interested already.
	If he's not very popular, especially if he's not very popular Among the RNC. The media viewed the Republican Party's and Trump's fight as some sort of infighting that was negative for both, whereas, of course, Trump was like the big shaggy-haired club that they wanted to bludgeon the RNC half to death with, right?
	I mean, people are like, the RNC don't like him.
	I already like him.
	And it's funny because the leftists, they project all the time, right?
	So if something's unpopular, then the leftists back away from it.
	But people who have integrity usually are more interested in that.
	So that's their narrative.
	And this is why it didn't work with the people who were conservatives.
	It didn't.
	But it was a fascinating...
	Our week inside the media machine was fascinating for seeing how they brew a narrative.
	Yeah.
	They have it before they even call the people who are involved in the event.
	Sure.
	Sure.
	And it may, you know, there's stuff that's come out not related to what you guys are talking about, the stuff that just came out from WikiLeaks today about the degree of coordination between the Democrats and the media.
	Yeah.
	It's Glenn Reynolds who always says, if you think of the media as Democrat operatives with bylines, you will be more accurate.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	I mean, and then they all complain about the fact that there may be super PACs on the conservative side.
	It's like, well, there is a giant super PAC called the mainstream media, you know, Fox excluded.
	And That seems to be quite a benefit.
	I mean, they swing elections.
	They swing elections, the media, and that's the kind of power that they have.
	They swing elections almost always and forever in one particular direction.
	And, you know, facts be damned, they're on a mission.
	Yeah, there was only one media person who I felt like had any integrity, and she was from Colorado Public Radio.
	And she recently did a short profile about me just as a profile about a Trump supporter.
	Oh no!
	Well, she was very fair.
	I was very surprised and I totally give her credit.
	But she posted the profile on Facebook and Twitter and I made the mistake of reading all the comments.
	Everyone is so mean!
	Oh, yeah, there's a pretty funny cartoon.
	Sorry, there's a pretty funny cartoon of some guy, you know, who's like five foot nothing, you know, flicking the ear of some guy who's like six foot seven.
	And it's like, Carl suddenly forgets he's not actually on the internet.
	You know, and it's like, yeah, there is this anonymity and there's, you know, keyboard warriors, internet courage and all that.
	But sorry, go on.
	So yeah, and generally, it's not always a super great idea to read the comments to Buddha Mildly.
	Yeah, that's partially why I decided to write in because I read the comments and they were just so terrible.
	There's just this part deep inside me that cares about what these people think and I know I shouldn't because they are just...
	No, you can't help it.
	No, you can't help it.
	If you've got any kind of conscience, look...
	We evolved our emotional apparatus in a tribal environment.
	And so when most of us read stuff What we think of is that our neighbor just dropped it into our mailbox.
	You know, they're in our tribe, they're in our circle.
	They're going to be around our kids.
	You know, of the 50 of us around trying to survive among the thundering feet of the bison or whatever, we're all, you know, so our emotional apparatus evolved way prior to the internet.
	And all communications are considered to be proximate according to our emotional apparatus.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And so you can't avoid it having some kind of impact.
	Now, of course, you can train yourself and reason with yourself and, you know, master yourself and all of that to recognize that this is all distant stuff.
	But particularly, I think, for, you know, I've talked about case-selected people, or for, you know, more responsible people, people with a conscience and all that kind of stuff, it matters.
	Because in a tribe, it did matter.
	If somebody really hated you in your immediate tribal circle, I mean, it was going to come to blows at one time or another and only one of you might be left standing.
	And so I think emotionally we react to very distant communications as if somebody's, you know, the tweet is coming from inside the house.
	I think that's kind of how it happens for us emotionally, at least until we sort of learn how to deal with it.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yeah, and especially as a woman, there's a difference between how personally my husband takes it and how I take it.
	Well, men train each other for verbal abuse since, like, the age of four months old, you know?
	Yeah.
	You call that a crap?
	Look at this crap.
	I can hold it in two hands.
	Look, I can mold something that Richard Dreyfuss would make in a movie out of mashed potatoes out of this crap.
	You know, I mean, men trash talk each other all the time.
	And so we kind of are training ourselves to not take as seriously negative comments, if that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	As the old joke, and I've said this before, as the old joke goes, men say mean things to each other but don't mean it.
	Women say nice things to each other and don't mean it.
	So I think there is not that same kind of response that happens.
	When men experience that kind of negativity.
	And of course, but women are very harsh on the internet.
	I mean, the majority of abusive tweets in a recent study came from women.
	And there's a graphic floating around, which you can look up, which I find interesting, is that female accounts after Melania Trump did her speech.
	The female accounts.
	Mike, maybe you can dig this up and give me a link, but there was a sort of bubblegram of what women were saying about Melania.
	Trump, after she gave her speech at the RNC in Cleveland just recently.
	And it's pretty appalling.
	I mean, so there is a sensitivity for women, but, and again, I'm not putting you in this category, of course, but women can be exceedingly harsh on the internet, so...
	Yeah.
	That's kind of an occupational hazard.
	And of course, the more effective you are in battling the interests of immoral people, the more you're going to annoy immoral people, right?
	As the old saying goes, they only shoot flack at you when you're over the target, right?
	Yeah.
	That's something my husband tells me all the time.
	I mean, you guys were instrumental in doing something quite amazing.
	I mean, you did a lot to help Trump overcome this particular hurdle, which for your belief system, for conservative belief system, is a huge deal, right?
	Yeah, and certainly, obviously, future President Trump gets a tremendous amount of credit for this.
	We really...
	We felt like we changed the narrative.
	So the narrative right after Colorado was, look how brilliant Ted Cruz is.
	He has mastered the system.
	Oh boy, has he ever...
	I'm going to hand one speech in and deliver a completely different one and have people boo me off the stage while I seppuku my entire future political career.
	Here are my innards.
	Here is my spleen.
	I'm tripping over my intestines as I crawl off the stage and my wife has to be escorted about security and I get kicked out of a donor suite and people say, find your own damn way home, lying Ted.
	It's not often you see somebody destroy their career live on television.
	I'm sorry.
	I try not to be a vengeful guy.
	You know, I'm with that.
	You know, I'm a big turn-the-other-cheek to some degree, but every now and then, a truly interstellar pile of douchiness lands on the political landscape, and it's hard not to enjoy.
	I think it was John Boehner who said, why do people dislike Ted Cruz on site?
	It saves time.
	Fat chipmunk, be bad!
	But yeah, it was really – the protest allowed something for Mr.
	Trump to hang his counter-narrative on, which was, no, it's not that Ted Cruz has mastered the system.
	It is that the system itself is irreparably damaged.
	I think, A, it's a more powerful narrative.
	Obviously, Trump is a master of that.
	He's probably the best marketer and brander in the business right now.
	But in addition, without that hook, he didn't have it available.
	And I think that's what we gave him.
	And I felt very positive about that.
	That's what I drew out of it as a positivity.
	And I think the big thing that I drew out of it is how much impact the internet gives the average person.
	I think most people don't realize that.
	Yeah.
	Like, I literally...
	I went on Squarespace.
	I paid six bucks.
	I made a website.
	I went on Facebook.
	I paid zero dollars.
	I made an event.
	And I tweeted and went on Reddit.
	That's, like, that's all I did.
	And, like, the next week was absolute insanity.
	Like, crazy.
	Like, anyone can do this.
	And, like, it was kind of terrifying.
	Yeah.
	How?
	Oh no!
	I have power!
	Like, I was like, what have I created?
	Right.
	Right.
	No, I mean, I get it.
	I mean, we, you know, Mike and I, that's, it's us.
	Right?
	And we put together presentations that were viewed a couple of million times that helped really move the needle on Brexit.
	You know, our untruth presentations about Donald Trump and the various things have been viewed millions and millions and millions of times.
	And, you know, 5 or 10% of people really changed their minds.
	That's a big deal.
	It's a big deal.
	I mean, since when did people with no television or radio station get to make statements that alter the course of American political momentum?
	Whoa, big deal.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Absolutely.
	But it, like...
	I am so grateful for the effects that it had, and I am so glad that we did it.
	I wouldn't go back.
	It's scary though, because my real name is tied to all this, and there's really angry people on the internet who I think that I'm really horrible.
	Fortunately, her husband is big and has more guns than those people.
	Yeah.
	Yes, there is that.
	And of course, there will be, you know, there's an old saying of Churchill's that is important where he was talking to someone who says, you know, I got a lot of enemies.
	And Churchill said, you have enemies.
	Good.
	That means you have stood up for something, sometime, somewhere.
	And that's what happens.
	Anytime you stand up for anything in a public sphere, You gain great friends and great enemies.
	And it is, of course, your hope that your friends outnumber and out, I guess, are outarm your enemies.
	And that is the price.
	And it is a strange thing.
	Yeah.
	Because for you, you care about something, you're trying to do something positive.
	And other people, I mean, you're just this giant dumping ground for all of their weird emotional crap, right?
	Yeah.
	I think that relates to how our family and friends reacted because so many of them who were supportive were encouraging us by saying, You're standing up for a cause you believe in.
	I don't necessarily believe in the same cause, but I'm so happy and supportive of you guys for doing it.
	And some of those people saying those things were really liberal people who are going to vote for Hillary.
	And then we had People who have been conservative forever and ever saying that what we did was irresponsible and put a target on our backs.
	Yeah, there's nothing like people who try and poke the K-selected paranoia, right?
	What target on my back?
	Where?
	What?
	What?
	Yeah.
	So it was very, very interesting to see The closest people in our lives, their reaction, it seemed almost the opposite of what you would expect.
	Yeah, I mean, I certainly can't explain that, other than to say, when you stand up for something important, you very quickly will find out who your friends are.
	Like, there's an old Dr.
	Phil thing, and you know, he can be a bit cheesy.
	And, you know, right on the slate of who...
	It gets a little bit...
	But he did say at one point, it sort of stuck with me, where he said, you know, the friends are the people who are walking in the door when everyone else is walking out.
	Yeah.
	And I think there's some...
	So, you know, you had some friends who were pleased and proud.
	I don't know if they're still pleased and proud now that Trump is basically going to steamroll Hillary, I think.
	What's that stuck in the tire tracks?
	I believe that's cankles, yoga suits, and hair dye.
	But...
	And a very mangled thumb drive.
	But I would say that maybe they'll feel differently if Trump does get elected.
	But of course, you know, the question of this election in America, as you know, is unprecedented.
	The last time that America faced this fork in the road politically was when they were deciding whether to stay under King George or not.
	Right?
	I mean, this is a big, as you know, it's a very big, very big deal.
	and it's not just america it is the west as a whole that uh arguably and i would say strongly arguably hangs in the balance it is a very big deal and i almost respect the people who are the haters because at least they get how important it is at least they get what a big deal it is incoherently and incomprehensibly and Aggressively so, but they do get that it's a big deal.
	Whereas a lot of the people are like, well, you know, I'm happy that you...
	It's good that you...
	And it's like, don't you...
	It's a big deal.
	If you guys helped get Trump over this hurdle, you have played a part in truly altering the course of America and the West.
	Making America great again.
	Not a bad thing to talk about with the grandkids.
	What did you do in the war of 2016?
	I made mean comments on the internet.
	Did you guys go to Cleveland?
	No.
	No, because again...
	We certainly weren't selected as Colorado's delegates.
	I can see that.
	We were not popular with the GOP at the time.
	Still waiting for my invitation to speak at the American Philosophical Association.
	Must get lost in the mail again.
	We did have the chance to see Trump when he came for the Western Conservative Summit.
	And he did give Erin a nice shout out in his speech.
	She was literally jumping up and down and cheering.
	To the hot lady in the fourth row.
	What did he say?
	He said that he suspected that some of us were in the protest.
	And Aaron started jumping up and down and cheering.
	And he pointed at her and said, yup.
	Yeah, basically.
	Wow, you got pointed at by Trump.
	She did.
	Vaguely.
	I believe now that you can cause liberals to burst into flame just in proximity now that you've had the sharpie finger.
	That's probably true.
	Right.
	Given how big his hands are, I assume he just touched you in fourth row of stadiums.
	Certainly.
	No, that's a big deal.
	You stood out for what you believed in.
	You had a big effect and you got a view of the media.
	So that's quite a bit.
	Now, are you guys, what now?
	I mean, I hate to sort of say immediately, like, what now?
	But, I mean, given your experience and exposure in this, do you feel any urge to do anything more?
	Or are you going to retreat back?
	Or what's your...
	What's your future thing?
	I don't know that we have a, this is our next move.
	We still get regularly called whenever the national media needs a Trump supporter in Colorado, because again, as we said, they're lazy.
	And also, they get to indicate, well, we're going to call the Trump supporters, and there's only two.
	We have to keep calling the same people, because that's all there is.
	Probably some of that, too.
	You know, we'd like to make a bigger impact.
	And right now, three kids, work, housewifing.
	So it's tough to make the time, but sometimes events catch you up.
	Right.
	Yeah, I mean, I know that you sort of asked for my advice.
	I mean, I... It's funny.
	I took a friend of mine's kids out for dinner the other day, and we were chatting.
	We were chatting.
	We were chatting, and someone came up, I love the work that you do.
	It's changed my life.
	Thank you so much.
	And of course, I've known these kids for years, and I do a show somewhere.
	It's all they know, right?
	Almost every time, someone's out, and thanks so much.
	I love what you do, and so on, and all that.
	And the kids were like, whoa.
	That guy knows you.
	It's like, not really.
	He just knows me from the show.
	It's like, oh yeah, you have a show, I guess.
	That kind of thing.
	And it is a strange thing.
	I mean, I don't...
	It's not my sort of big thing being a public figure.
	Like, it's not...
	I've achieved my life's dream.
	I mean, it is what's necessary to help change the world.
	You know, if I was like some robot voice...
	From some, I don't know, untraceable location, it would not be, I think, particularly as compelling, right?
	I mean, so, you know, it's not my particular big thing.
	Some people love it, right?
	Some people love the fame and they pursue it and they'll do anything they can to increase it and so on.
	And that's fine, too.
	You know, that's a personality choice or a personality trait.
	But, you know, it's not my sort of big desire or big goal for, you know...
	To be at that place called the planet where everybody knows your name, not my particular thing.
	It's not where I get my fuel in life.
	And I think it has its significant downsides, right?
	As Sharon Stone said, she's a pretty smart lady.
	She said, you know, fame, you think it's feeding you, but it's actually eating you.
	And so, you know, from that standpoint, I'm very comfortable with what I'm doing.
	I think it's the right amount of exposure.
	I think it's the right amount of influence.
	I'd rather be the guy behind the curtain than the guy in front of the curtain as far as influence goes.
	And so I don't have any particular advice about how to handle Being a public figure because I honestly don't really think about it that much.
	I do my show.
	I try and do as well as I can, as committed as I can, as positively as I can, as passionately as I can, and as rationally as I can.
	Not necessarily all in that order.
	But I don't really think about what people think of me or what do they say.
	I mean, I assume it's the usual mix, a lot of positivity and the occasional Twisted troll of dysfunction or whatever.
	So, just trying to do good in the world and follow my passion where it leads.
	And so, I do think that not...
	Reading the comments might be a good idea as far as that goes because, you know, some of that stuff, I think particularly for women, they can kind of sit in your brain like flaming hypertext, right?
	Yeah.
	And, of course, it's not realistic to your life.
	You know, you'll never meet these people.
	You'll never know where they live.
	They don't know where you live, probably, so other than probably Colorado.
	So I think it sort of tricks your brain into thinking there's a proximity when there's not.
	And, you know, that's not necessarily a great...
	I would also say that it's important to know people who you like and who you respect.
	Vox Dei writes about this in a good book called Social Justice Warriors Always Lie.
	I'll put a link to that below.
	But he's saying, you know, go defend people if they're being attacked so that you have at least some expectation that they might come and defend you when you're being attacked.
	Build up your alliances.
	Build up a network of people you like and trust.
	And...
	You know, your relationship with the media is, I mean, it's everyone's to decide.
	Some people just avoid it like the plague and other people use it like a weapon.
	I mean, DJ Trump being one of those, I think.
	So that's a sort of more personal decision for you to make.
	But, you know, it's the normal compartmentalization that you do.
	You know, like if you're a doctor, you're dealing with people who are very ill and then you go home and you have to find some way to Not think about whether they're going to make it through the night all night long.
	You have to find some way to compartmentalize.
	You know, it's not that hard when you're a waiter or something, right?
	You know, like when I was a waiter, it seems like these days every restaurant I go to is like, oh yeah, I was a waiter here, I was a waiter here.
	But if you're a waiter, you go home and you don't think about serving food.
	But the more high level you're occupation and the more moral your sort of goal and focus the harder it is sometimes to create that compartmentalization where you say I've been out there trying to do my best to save civilization and now I'm not.
	You know what I mean?
	You have to have that.
	It's almost like a discipline, but it's also a kind of relaxation where you just say, I've done my day's work.
	I've put everything I've got into what I do, and I try to leave nothing on the table.
	I try to put everything.
	I go all in for every show that I do.
	I try to give it my absolute best, and if I can't get it the first take or the second take, I'll get it at some point.
	And so...
	You put it all in, and you also recognize, of course, you're not alone in doing what you're doing.
	There are thousands and thousands of people out there doing fantastic work to help the world, and it's not all on your shoulders.
	Obviously, everybody, I think, feels sometimes that it's me or nothing, right?
	But get your alliances, get your friendships, get your allies.
	Recognize that lots of other people are doing great work, and be in it for the long haul, I think, is really important.
	This is not a sprint.
	This is a marathon.
	And it's always earlier than You think.
	And recognize that you want to be around for the long haul.
	Like, I think of Andrew Breitbart, who was...
	I read his autobiography.
	Really, really vivid part with Arnold Schwarzenegger hitting tennis balls at him and his friends.
	Anyway.
	But I read his autobiography.
	And...
	Now, he died, I guess, what?
	2012, I think he died.
	And he had...
	I think he was a little overweight, he wasn't exercising, he was working too hard, and he didn't pace himself, if that makes sense.
	And it is important to take care of your health, to take care of your relationships, to be happy, and to recognize that it should be fun.
	It should be, I mean, it's important and sometimes unsettling work, you know.
	When we cycle here between shooting, terrorist attack, shooting, terrorist attack, shooting.
	And I mean, it just feels like, oh man, I've been working on the fall of Rome for like months.
	And it is grim stuff.
	And of course, you know, if you're dealing with politics, I mean, you have to focus a little bit more on the, sometimes on the bad news and the good news because That's where the change can really occur.
	And just, you know, to pace yourself and be in it for the long haul.
	And to remember, of course, that by making the world a better place for your children, you don't want to make the home environment a worse place for your children by being distracted or stressed or whatever.
	That's what I don't really have.
	Sorry, it's not very helpful.
	It's a long fortune cookie with, you know, not much taste.
	But those are sort of my thoughts on the subject.
	But that makes sense.
	I... It really...
	I come from a very entrepreneurial background.
	So entrepreneurs are kind of crazy.
	And when they get a project, they go 100% full speed for however long it takes.
	So...
	They over-own, right?
	They own everything.
	They don't want to delegate, right?
	So I think I just...
	I need to change my mindset to make it...
	to pace myself a little bit more.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, the one thing that Trump a lot of times does seem that he's enjoying himself.
	You know, Clinton not so much, in my opinion.
	But Trump does look like he's enjoying the process, relishing the experience.
	You know, though, of course, he's duly serious, I think, where necessary.
	But...
	I think trying to find ways to enjoy it is important.
	And of course, you know, I say it's fun, but it is also a battle.
	You know, and it could be a battle wherein the other side, as is generally the case, doesn't give up without a significant fight, and that fight can get personal.
	And that's natural.
	I mean, if you...
	If you don't deal with the big moral issues of the world, then you're not going to upset too many people.
	But if you do, and you guys are really focusing on, you say, Make America Great Again, I mean, there's a lot involved in that, which is upsetting to a lot of people.
	And they think is negative to their long-term interests, right?
	This is one of the problems with different levels of knowledge among voters or different levels of intelligence, is that The whole goal behind, I think, what Trump is doing is it's going to be good pretty much for everyone.
	You know, the people on welfare, if there are more jobs, then they may not necessarily enjoy that process of getting off welfare and on jobs, but they'll be much happier in the long run.
	Yeah.
	Buck's Day had a wonderful post recently about the dysgenic effect of immigration on France and the United States.
	There's a study done recently about the dysgenic effect in France on their IQ due to Moroccan and Algerian immigration.
	Yeah.
	And he did the math on similar immigration into the United States showing it's lowered our national average IQ by about four points.
	Oh, yeah.
	Now, we talked about that with Helmuth Nyberg.
	On this show as well.
	And it is significant because once you start getting close to 90, you can't have a democracy anymore.
	So even the people who may not come or who may even end up leaving America to go back to Mexico, then there's some opportunity to make Mexico better.
	But if everybody flees to America, Mexico just gets worse, and then America just gets worse.
	That's long-term thinking, and I'm not saying it's much comfort to the people who may end up leaving America, but that is, I think, the level at which we have to work, that Mexico sure as heck isn't going to get any better if...
	Everybody's leaving for the States, except those people who are too inert or too corrupt to leave.
	So, yeah, got to go back and fix your countries.
	I mean, everybody fleeing to the West is not going to fix the countries of origin.
	It's just going to make them even worse.
	So, is there anything else you want to chat about at the moment?
	Is this relatively helpful?
	Yeah, I would say this is helpful.
	I think third-party encouragement and knowing that you've got other people in your corner, even disembodied voices on the Skype, is helpful for morale.
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	And be proud.
	Be proud of what you've done.
	Okay.
	Pride always draws a tack.
	The alchemy of that is complicated, but they say pride Goeth before a fall.
	The Icarus flies up and his wings melt and he falls into the ocean and dies.
	This idea that if you have pride, you're going to get attacked.
	I mean, people talk about this existential thing or being tempted by Satan thing, but that's not true.
	It's not true.
	Pride cometh before a fall because pride annoys people.
	If you've done something you're legitimately proud of and have good reason to be proud of, as I think you both have, People get annoyed because it reminds them that they're usually living their life in a very small and selfish manner.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I'm just anticipating the general election and all the annoying local media people calling me.
	You know, can I... Yeah.
	No, sorry, go ahead.
	Go ahead.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Like, when the Judge Curiel stuff was becoming a big issue and it was in the news for about a week, for some reason, something happened and then the very next morning I got two calls from the two biggest local media people and they were like, do you want to come into our studio and respond to this stuff?
	And I just, like, my heart rate went to 200 and I was like, what?
	No.
	Why are you calling me?
	Like, am I really the spokesperson for Colorado Trump supporters?
	Like, this doesn't make any sense.
	Why not?
	Why not?
	Why not be that person?
	Exactly, I guess.
	Wait, no.
	I should.
	What am I supposed to be?
	If you want to be.
	Okay.
	You know, every time you do it, it's going to get easier.
	Every time you do it, you're going to learn more about it.
	I mean, it's just a skill like any other, right?
	Okay.
	Okay.
	I can do it then.
	No, no, I'm not saying you should.
	I'm just saying, like, you could if you wanted.
	I mean, there's certainly worse things to do with your time and energy.
	And, um...
	Well, I mean, I have to.
	Like, I gotta do it for my kids.
	Like, I... You know, I get you with the have to, but that kind of takes your free will out of it.
	Yeah.
	Every single show...
	Rebooting.
	And we're back.
	It's okay.
	I've got an SSD drive in here.
	We're back.
	But...
	If you say you have to, that takes the free choice and it becomes a grim death march of inevitability and moral obligation.
	Every show, I can wake up tomorrow and decide never to do a show again.
	Every single show, I can choose to do or not.
	And without that choice, I don't think I get the shows I get.
	Do you know what I mean?
	I have to because of my children.
	No?
	No.
	I think that there can be great value in doing it.
	But I think they have to, and I fight this myself too, you know, because I always say that with great ability comes great responsibility.
	And I do have great abilities in certain fields and essential courage to speak about issues that other people don't want to speak about, which I think are the most important issues around.
	So with ability comes responsibility, but I don't like to think that it makes us a slave to history or a slave to the future or a slave to Civilization.
	Okay.
	If you want to, if you find it a positive thing to do.
	I don't think you want to model to your kids that you just have to do stuff even if you don't like it because obligations.
	Doing stuff that you don't like because obligations is civilization. - Sure.
	To a degree, obviously, but not all things, right?
	Sure.
	Not big things.
	I agree with you.
	We do need discipline and doing things you don't want to do is important.
	Otherwise we just all go on instinct and all that.
	But I don't like the idea that we just must force ourselves to do things rather than finding a way to enjoy or find richness and appreciation in doing them.
	I think things that we don't Genuinely engage with become unsustainable in the long run.
	Like, you can force yourself to do anything.
	Like, you've seen people, like, I don't know if you know people who've dieted or whatever, they're just white knuckle stuff.
	You know, like, I'm not gonna have that dessert, you know, white knuckle, right?
	And I think you have to find some way to find pleasure in what you're doing, right?
	I mean, I'm like one of the 2% of people who've lost weight and keep it off.
	And I find pleasure in that.
	I have to find a way that that's an enjoyable and positive experience for me to not eat the way that I used to eat and to exercise more than I used to exercise.
	Otherwise, every day is just like a white-knuckle battle, and eventually you're going to lose, right?
	Absolutely, Ed.
	I follow the Kate Moss axiom on that one.
	There's no food that tastes as good as skinny feels.
	Right.
	Although, I do sometimes think of her In a nice white wine sauce with a Chianti and fava beans.
	That's just because I use toothpicks.
	We eat meat.
	Right.
	And if I could also add...
	Anyway.
	You don't have to, but that can be fun in doing it.
	Well, it doesn't take much to get started and to have a...
	Crazy, crazy impact.
	I can't emphasize enough how ridiculously small effort I initially put into this thing that turned into a national huge story that May have changed the primaries.
	In even a small way.
	I just...
	I did the smallest thing.
	And, like, just everyone who's listening, like, you too can be called by endless amounts of horrible reporters.
	You too can join the ambivalent crew of Saving the World.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	We heard the call to glory, but it was really annoying to follow.
	Yeah.
	That's right.
	The call to glory comes with nasal voicemails from lefty loser reporters.
	Yes.
	So I hear you're the Colorado Trump supporters.
	Maybe you'd like to give me a call so I can talk you out of it.
	I mean, get your quotes for an article I'm working on about how terrible Trump is.
	Oh, man.
	If you can get reception from your mom's basement, I'd really like it.
	You could give me a call back because I've got my orders from the DNC to call you guys and we will be Posting a picture of Jabba the Hutt next to you, if that's alright, but that's how it works.
	You should have seen their faces as we were answering their questions.
	Their faces would be all wrinkled with disgust and horror.
	Yeah, listen, I could tell you, I'm a Trump supporter, I could just stand up, turn around, take a dump in your salad.
	And they're like...
	That's a tough one.
	You know, I'm half finished the salad, but Trump supporters, they last.
	Yeah, that is...
	There's a great...
	Bill Maher had Ann Coulter on recently, and he was referring back, I think, to the previous summer when he'd said, who's going to be the nominee?
	And Ann Coulter said, Donald Trump.
	And there was a woman at the table just gave her this look like, what?
	She might as well have said, Obi-Wan Kenobi is good.
	Whatever it is, right?
	But she knew.
	She knew.
	I mean, we were talking about this stuff last summer.
	And it is this weird thing.
	But I'll tell you this.
	This is the one thing that hopefully will resonate as well, which is when people are really surprised at your perspective, all they're confessing is that they don't spend time around people with different perspectives.
	That's all they're saying is that their friends all think alike.
	You know, Pauline Kyle, as I mentioned before, was this, I think, the New York Times movie review critic for a long time.
	And she literally, when Nixon got elected, she said, I have no idea how this man could have got elected.
	Nobody I knew voted for him.
	And that just tells you that she has no intellectual curiosity, no interest in diversity, no interest in having people around her who challenge her beliefs and opinions.
	And so when people are like, oh, Trump, you know, like, all they're telling you is that they have no one around them who thinks differently than they do, which means that none of them are thinking at all.
	Well, listen, guys, I really appreciate you guys calling in.
	Matt and Erin is a real...
	A real pleasure and, you know, take pride in what you've done.
	You did a really powerful thing and you got to see a side of the world that a lot of people spend a lot of their time avoiding and maybe you sort of understood why.
	But it's, you know what it's like?
	This is what it's like.
	You know, there's like a grappling hook, you know, like in the Batman, takes it out, shoots it up and it always grips something like at the top, you know, goes around some Balustrade or something like that.
	And then you, you know, it just pulls you up, right?
	Well, it sometimes feels like, I don't know for me, it sometimes feels like my, like, philosophy shoots this grappling hook and I just kind of hold on as it pulls me along.
	It's kind of free will and kind of just reactionary.
	And, um...
	That can be a fun ride, too.
	So I appreciate you guys calling in.
	I think you should be very proud of what you've done, and I hope we can chat again.
	Absolutely.
	That'd be great.
	Thank you.
	You have a wonderful day.
	Wake up, kids!
	Okay, thanks for the time, and we'll talk to you soon.
	Take care.
	Okay, well, thanks everyone so much for the course.
	It was a wonderful and enjoyable conversation, as it almost always is, and even when it's not, it generally turns out to be very productive.
	Thanks, flat-earth guy!
	But follow me on Twitter, of course, at Stefan Molyneux, and freedomainradio.com slash donate to help out the show.
	Please, we need your help to continue to do what we're doing, to continue to grow at the rate we're growing, which is...
	Fast.
	And so, freedomainradio.com slash donate, fdrpodcast.com, of course, to share the shows, like, subscribe, and share the videos wherever you find them.
	And last but not least, you can go to fdrurl.com slash Amazon to throw a few shekels our way, should you do any online shopping.
	It won't cost you a penny, but helps us out just a little bit.
	Thank you, everybody, so much for a wonderful, wonderful time and the most important conversations in the whole wide world.
	Have a great night.

▲