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April 3, 2016 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:47:18

3250 The Caucasian Curse - Call In Show - April 1st, 2016

Question 1: [2:02] - “I am a parent of an incredibly bright and sociable 4-year-old boy. My wife and I live with our boy and his newborn little brother on a rural property owned by my wife's parents, and there is a large adjoining house next to ours with a family of 6 in it. They seem like lovely people and their two younger daughters are of similar age to our son, so he has become quite enamored with them and loves to play with them on the trampoline with them and talks about them a lot.”“We've noticed manipulative behaviour from the girls and so have recently capped the amount he can play with them. We've also made sure he plays within earshot of us as a number of times early on we lost sight of him and found him watching violent cartoons with the girls. We have often heard the father next door yelling quite angrily at the girls, and tonight I have overheard a rather disturbing and long screaming match happening next door. I am feeling like I need to speak to the parents next door or maybe stop my child playing with their younger girls.”“I'm a little lost for what to do. I do want to foster a neighborly relationship, and I don't want to punish the young girls next door by taking away their playfriend, but I am concerned that through the girls my son is being exposed to a culture that is abusive. I am interested to hear your thoughts on how to deal with possibly abusive neighbours and how to protect our son without creating further conflict or abandoning potentially abused children.”Question 2: [55:33] - “As a naturalized American citizen with secular upbringing, and a religious adult past, I am currently in a relationship which is the longest and most stable I have ever had, but I am wondering if it is time to end it because I feel painfully dissatisfied. She treats me well, but the relationship seems to lack a few key elements for me. Most of the romantic relationships in my life have been minimally abusive at best, and significantly abusive at worst, and I am seeking the correct path here?”Question 3: [1:47:47] - “Is it okay to be manipulative as long as you know that your end goal will benefit the person you are manipulating? What if you think that the end goal is good, but it accidentally has a negative effect on others? Is intention the only factor that gives a manipulative act a moral tint, or is it outcome?”Question 4: [2:09:22] - “What do you think about creating a movement to form a free society completely outside of any existing government? How viable is it to bring people together from all around the world online and then focus that energy into actually creating a free society with land purchased or somehow obtained contractually from an existing country? What would you see as the major challenges?”

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	Hello, hello everybody.
	Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain Radio.
	Hope you're doing well.
	So, yes, did we cover some ground in the show tonight?
	First up, we had a parent who's got a lovely child and has had some pretty challenging interactions with the parents of the kids on his parents' farm, like they're all sort of living together cheek by jowl.
	And what do you do when your kids are friends with other people who seem to have some pretty significant dysfunctions?
	Had some pretty good chats about that.
	And that's, you know, if you're going to be a parent, this is information you need to know.
	The second caller was wondering, hey, why do you think my girlfriend basically isn't having sex with me anymore?
	And I'm not going to give you anything ahead of time other than to say...
	Whoa!
	So, have a listen to that one for sure.
	And the third caller was, you know, we all like to be seen in our best light and so on.
	Is it manipulative to try and manage other people's perceptions of you and is that dishonest?
	It's a great, great question.
	And fourth, you know, in the challenging how do we get through to freedom planet, can't we just create a free society using some piece of land that's not being consumed by some status paradigm?
	Can't we just find some way to create freedom in the world rather than try and keep convincing everyone, let's just find a free place we can live and go there?
	And that's a great question, and we had a good long chat about that.
	So thanks everyone so much, of course, for this conversation.
	Continued world's greatest conversation.
	And freedomainradio.com slash donate, as you know, to please, please come and help us out.
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	And please remember to like, subscribe at youtube.com slash freedomainradio.
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	Here we go.
	Alright, well up for us today is James.
	James wrote in and said, They seem like lovely people,
	and their two younger daughters are of similar age to our son, so he has become quite enamored with them and loves to play with them on the trampoline and talks about them quite a bit.
	They are a very different home culture to ours.
	Their kids watch a lot of TV and go to public schools.
	They both work from home, the parents, like my wife and I are, so we see each other a lot, but we don't tend to socialize.
	We've noticed manipulative behavior from the girls and have so recently capped the amount that my son can play with them.
	We've also made sure he plays within an earshot of us as a number of times we lost sight of him and found him watching violent cartoons with the girls.
	First, we thought the manipulation of the girls may just be a male-female-female group dynamic, or two sisters vs.
	boy next door, or maybe public school year-type behavior that they're bringing home with them, but we have often heard the father next door yelling quite angrily at the girls, and tonight I overheard a rather disturbing and long screaming match happening next door.
	There are two older teenage siblings next door, too, and while I know the teenage girls are going to public schools, that can be testing enough, I'm feeling like I need to speak to the parents next door and maybe stop my child playing with the younger girls.
	I'm a little lost for what to do.
	I want to foster a neighborly relationship, but I don't want to punish the young girls next door by taking away their playfriend.
	But I'm concerned that through the girls, my son is being exposed to a culture that is abusive.
	My wife and I are peaceful parents, and we spend a lot of time together studying and discussing parenting methods that are respectful and nonviolent.
	Our home life combines respectful parenting approaches and the Steiner slash Waldorf education methods, which my wife has also been studying.
	I'm interested to hear your thoughts on how to deal with possibly abusive neighbors and how to protect our son without creating further conflict or abandoning potentially abused children.
	That's from James.
	Wow.
	Hey, James.
	How are you doing?
	Hi Stefan, I'm good.
	Thanks for having me.
	My pleasure, my pleasure.
	When you said That you just heard this screaming match, but I know there's a bit of a waiting list to get on the show.
	How long ago did that actually happen?
	Probably about two months ago now, so there has been a little bit of an update.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	I took some action.
	I actually sent the email to Mike on the night, actually as it was happening, because I was so disturbed at the time.
	I sort of reached out for a source of wisdom, but I ended up talking to My father-in-law, who's the property owner, the next day, and he was quite disturbed to hear about the screaming match that we'd witnessed.
	And I ended up that day, the next day after the event, I went over and spoke to them, to the parents, that is, next door.
	As soon as I walked over, the mother burst into tears.
	She was professing her guilt before I'd even said anything to her.
	The father came out with arms crossed and was staunchly closed and defensive.
	I just came to them in an open spirit of being a neighbor.
	I was honest.
	I said, look, I heard what happened last night.
	It's not really okay, but I want to offer our support to you guys as parents that if you're finding it hard to deal with your teenagers that this is what's going to happen.
	I would like you to talk to someone and you can talk to us if you want to.
	You can come over and say whatever needs to be said.
	I kind of tried to show them that we were willing to offer support but not willing to really tolerate that happening in our community.
	They seemed receptive to what I was saying and grateful and they were sort of gracious about it.
	But what's happened since is that the young girls that my son likes to play with have basically started declining to play with him at all times and we haven't really had another conversation with them.
	I'm sorry, was it your son who decided to stop playing?
	No, no, the girls next door.
	So he goes out to the shared area and he calls out to them and says, can I come and play?
	And they've always said yes previously and now they're saying no, which for a few times was a bit hurtful.
	He sort of came back in tears and wasn't too happy about it.
	But now it sort of just seems to be how it goes and he understands it.
	And they're not even coming out to the area that's shared now so much.
	They seem to just be down the other end and we don't really have any sightings of them or contact.
	And we haven't really had any friendly conversations with the neighbours.
	There hasn't been any unfriendliness.
	We wave to each other when we pass each other on the road and that sort of thing.
	But there seems to be a distance now.
	The one thing I am happy about is that I haven't heard any more screaming matches happening.
	So either they're getting better at hiding it or it's stopped.
	I hope it's the latter.
	Wow.
	When you talked to them, did they make any signs that they were going to have their kids start playing with your kids?
	No, no.
	In fact, it seemed like it was going to be a bridge.
	If anything, they were so sort of gracious in the conversation and even at the end of it, they sort of extended an offer to me to do the same, to me and my wife, that they would be happy to You know, be part of the community and help us with any parenting guidance that we need, you know, because they've got more kids, so they've been doing it for longer sort of thing, I think, was the intent of their offer.
	But, you know, I just sort of thanked them and said, well, yeah, that's kind of your thanks.
	But, yeah, I thought it was a bridge being built, and it seems to have been a bridge burnt.
	I mean, it doesn't sound...
	I mean, it sounds like you did very...
	You took a very decent approach to this issue.
	I'd really tried to, and I think they could see that.
	That's why it certainly wasn't a rude conversation or anything with them.
	They could tell I was coming in in a spirit of openness.
	I just wanted them to know that I'd heard it.
	And as soon as the mother saw me, and she knew that's why I was coming over, she was crying and sobbing and confessing that it was horrible of her and she was finding it so hard and all of this.
	And that's why I said, look, if you're finding it hard, then you need to seek out help.
	And I'm happy to be part of that if it would be of help to you guys.
	That's a wonderfully generous offer.
	I mean, it's a little bit like, let me do your tracheotomy, because, you know, these kinds of problems can be pretty significant to get involved in, but, I mean, it was a very nice offer.
	Thank you for saying so.
	Great.
	Sorry, you were going to say something else, so go ahead.
	I've lost my train of thought but I guess in a sense that immediate situation has kind of resolved because my son isn't having contact with the children so we're nowhere near as concerned about the influence that they're having on him in the behaviour we were witnessing in their play.
	But I am concerned that it sort of has put the whole family at a greater distance It's a difficult thing to witness that sort of abusive behavior happening so nearby and to feel kind of helpless to be a positive influence for the children.
	Because I'm much more concerned about the children than I am about their parents.
	I find their parents easy to talk to, you know, not on any deep level, just easy to sort of, you know, have small talk with and say hi to.
	But I don't particularly like them or want to pursue a friendship with them.
	There's not really much common ground, but I am concerned for their children.
	Right, right, right.
	And I appreciate that concern.
	I appreciate that concern.
	And I'll tell you my thoughts.
	This is going to sound callous, like I'll say that ahead of time, and I'm not making the case this is any sort of final philosophical answer.
	But proximity doesn't affect our capacity to directly help other families.
	Right?
	I mean, in fact, proximity can be...
	A greater shield to us trying to help other families.
	For the very reason that we're so close that we've seen the skeletons in the closet, so to speak.
	And so there's the shame-based cover-up and all that that happens afterwards.
	I don't think that's what's going on with the kids.
	Yeah, it is.
	And so clearly the kids have been instructed not to play with your son.
	And they haven't talked about it with you.
	They haven't said, look...
	We parent differently and we don't want to confuse...
	Like, whatever they would have done, right?
	We parent differently.
	We don't want to confuse our kids because you parent in a very different way than we do and so on.
	You apparently have this weird thing about not letting five-year-olds watch violent cartoons.
	I don't know what's up with that.
	But so, you know, they could have said that...
	That you have different parenting styles, so they're going to have to keep the kids apart, at least for the time.
	Like, basically, they were nice to your face and told their kids not to play with your kid without telling you what was going on.
	And that's cruel, right?
	Because your kid's over there, your son's over there, come play with me.
	And they're, no.
	Which, for him, they did a little harm to your son.
	Because if they'd have told you, listen, we're going to take a break from the kids playing together until we sort this stuff out, you could have sat down with your son, right?
	And prevented him from encountering this situation where he's requesting playtime with former playmates and they're just rebuffing him and he doesn't know why.
	And because you don't know why, you don't even know what's going to happen.
	Yeah, yeah.
	That thought kind of pisses me off a bit.
	You think?
	That the abuse is sort of spilling over in a small way to my child.
	Well, it's better that than it being more subtle and continuing in other ways, right?
	Yes.
	I mean, it's not like, you know, if they've got violent cartoons or whatever going on, it's not like him being over there is all kinds of super relaxing for you, right?
	It's certainly not.
	Right.
	Right.
	I mean, it's like, you know, the knife-throwing family is not a relaxing babysitter.
	And I abstained from booking the knife-throwing babysitter today for my son who was on this call.
	Yeah, you want to start with a spork or two, you know, work your way up.
	But that's important because that is the kind of petty vengeance that goes on with these kind of dysfunctional people.
	Which is that they're nice to your face, but they've obviously instructed you.
	You're not allowed to play with that.
	Now, the question is why?
	Why did they make the decision?
	Is it to punish you?
	Is it to punish your son?
	I don't think so.
	I obviously don't know.
	But why is their other daughters forbidden from playing with your son?
	I guess what I said to them when I went over and spoke to them I gave a very clear encouragement of taking some positive action to change themselves as parents.
	I think the most...
	Forceful language I used was to say something along the lines of, you guys, if this is happening, you need to talk to someone about it.
	You need to sort of seek out help.
	And, you know, maybe to people who don't want to change that, you know, maybe they're fighting words to sort of put that idea forward as a need.
	Yeah.
	You're a very nice person.
	You're very nice.
	You're totally throwing off my image of Australians.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	Almost all the Australians I've met are really nice.
	But I would say that what you did was very mature, right?
	And healthy assertiveness, right?
	I mean, you didn't pretend nothing happened because that's...
	That's the magic that people have in their back pocket, which allows them to not have any contact with their fellow human.
	Nothing happened!
	I wanted to pretend nothing happened.
	Yeah, of course, you wish nothing had happened.
	That would have been great.
	I can't tell you how much I... Oh, I sound like a really hateful person these days.
	I hate that stuff.
	I hate the nothing happened stuff.
	Yeah, I can't do it.
	It's so weird.
	It's so weird.
	But it is the default position for people in this world.
	Wishing away unpleasant things.
	Wishing away unpleasant things.
	It's cowardly And what it does is, if you're avoidant in that way, it takes your own unreality and inflicts it on other people.
	It's damaging, very damaging.
	Now, when people are dysfunctional, to put it as nicely as possible, their enemies are not each other.
	The enemies of dysfunctional people are not dysfunctional people, but functional people.
	The enemy of a bad debater is not a bad debater, but a good debater.
	The enemy of a bad chess player is not a bad chess player, but a good chess player.
	When you come over and you speak reasonably and assertively and in a non-abusive manner, I guarantee you, man, the issue you had with your neighbors was infinitely more important and deep than whatever bullshit they were fighting about.
	And so the fact that they were screaming, I assume, you don't use that word lightly, like, the moment people scream, they're insane.
	It was insane.
	Yeah, it's literally, it's insane.
	And what it is, is two people who have no capacity for assertiveness, who, you know, the unstoppable force has met the immovable object, an escalation occurs.
	An escalation occurs until one person has to give away, or Both people are so exhausted that they can then basically just pass out, wake up and pretend that nothing happened.
	It's a fundamental failure of negotiation, which is a fundamental failure of assertiveness.
	They only have dominance and submission.
	They don't have healthy negotiation.
	Now, when you come forward and provide them the example of healthy negotiation, well, that...
	That is very dangerous for that entire family structure and in particular for parental authority.
	Why did they cut off contacts between their kids and your family?
	Because being around you, the children would see an emotionally mature, reasonable negotiator.
	They would see peaceful parenting, They would see you and your wife interacting in a positive and healthy and fun way, right?
	And then they would go home.
	I mean, I was lucky and, you know, to some degree I earned it, but there was definitely some luck involved in that there were...
	I mean, I really probably only say one or two functional families around when I was growing up.
	Not in my neighborhood.
	My neighborhood was this entire vortex of dysfunction, but not that far away, like a 20-minute bike ride.
	It was a functional family.
	And when I would be over at this functional family, I was like, oh, my God is down.
	Nothing crazy going to happen here.
	There may be disagreements.
	And I remember, it's so wild.
	It's a great family.
	I remember...
	Sitting there at the age of 14 or 15 having a robust debate about colonialism.
	You know, my videos do not come out of nowhere.
	They're like age-old things that I've been wrestling with since my early to mid-teens.
	There's a robust debate about the positive and negative effects of colonialism.
	And because it was value-based rather than fact-based, you know, everyone could contribute.
	So what happened was I'd be in this environment where there was structure.
	And people did nice things.
	There'd be birthday parties and the mom would have written or the dad would have written notes and left them around the house and guiding people to birthday presents and treasure hunts and logic puzzles.
	It was a great place.
	It was a great place and had a huge influence on how I grew up and who I became.
	It doesn't take a lot of counterexamples for you to break out of this is inevitable.
	You just need one, really.
	So, I'll tell you this though, man.
	When I would leave that home, unwillingly, you know, I just wish they had kid-shaped wallpaper so I could just blend in to stay, right?
	But when I would leave that house and go home, it was, that was horrible.
	Because the dysfunction within my own home Showed up far more glaringly as a result of me seeing a happy, rational, peaceful, decent household.
	I'd like to be that for those children.
	You would, you would.
	But, you know, what incentive do their parents have to expose you to that?
	Right?
	Right?
	How are they going to look after their daughters have interacted with your family for the afternoon and then go home to a tense, simmering, explosive dinner table at their house?
	Parents, especially parents who rely on authority rather than reason, cannot abide having that authority punctured.
	And if they are revealed as dysfunctional Yeah.
	- That makes sense.
	So their entire family structure predicates on their children not being exposed to functional people, which is why they're sending them to government schools.
	- Yeah.
	- Not that they're gonna get exposed to a whole lot of functional behavior in government schools, right?
	- No, no.
	Yeah, it's troubling for me.
	It makes me feel...
	I mean, everything you're saying makes total sense and it's in line with the things that are sort of driving me here to even care.
	But because I, I suppose, choose to care about these children who...
	That's not a choice.
	It's not a choice, right?
	Empathy is this switch that is on or off, right?
	We have to manage it, but it's not like a choice, right?
	I guess I mean because I've chosen to take some actions to show that I care.
	Well, no, you care because you're a human being who cares, right?
	I mean, it's not, you know, if you hadn't chosen those actions, you chose those actions because you already cared.
	It didn't make you care, right?
	Yeah.
	You're a caring person, which is a great strength and a great vulnerability, right?
	Sadly.
	It is.
	And I feel there's a...
	Like, again, you're making so much sense about the motives of the parents and the limitations that that creates for the children.
	And it fills me with despair, really.
	Because...
	Not for my family, but for theirs.
	Because it's sort of...
	Yeah, it leaves it up to the parents to make the decision to do the right thing by their kids, and I'm not seeing that they're going to do that.
	And it means I just have to sort of step back.
	No, I mean, I'm sorry about that, but I mean, you have to accept the reality that choice, for a lot of people, choice is an eruption that happens maybe three or four times in their lives.
	Like, real choice.
	Real choice.
	And that is something that is very disconcerting to people to understand.
	And because I'm pretty good at choosing and pretty good at reviewing information and making better decisions and so on like for a lot of my life.
	I made this mistake of thinking, well, you know, people have choice.
	You know, I'll give them better information.
	Because, you know, when I receive better information, I try to adjust my behavior accordingly, adjust my belief systems accordingly.
	You know, one of the reasons I love doing this show is that I'm continually proving my prior self wrong.
	Which just, you know, means that you're alive and you're processing new information accurately.
	And...
	So I sort of made the mistake and thought, well, you know, choice seems to be something that I exercise fairly regularly.
	And therefore, other people have the same capacity for choice that I do, more or less.
	And that's not correct.
	That took a long time for me to sort of figure out that who I am is not humanity.
	I am not the essence and template of Of human beings, right?
	You know, everyone who's alive has a kidney of some kind or some dialysis machine.
	Everyone has a stomach and a spleen and a heart.
	But not everyone has the capacity for change or the willingness to pursue it.
	And so, for me, I understood over time, and this is since this show began, so this is not like ancient history, but I sort of understood over time that me...
	Continually absorbing new information, checking my premises, reworking the framework of what I believe and all of that.
	That's like practicing daily for a marathon.
	So I'm running around going like, wow, you know, running is easy.
	I'm true.
	You know, running is easy.
	And everyone's got legs, right?
	I mean, everyone's got legs and I have legs.
	And so everyone's legs are like my legs.
	And so I'd basically grab people off the couch who'd barely moved for 20 years and say, let's go running!
	You have legs, I have legs.
	You have lungs or a lung, I have lungs.
	And I'd be dragging them along and then they'd just start kicking at me and biting and becoming vicious.
	Well, it's kind of cruel, isn't it, to do that?
	Well, without a doubt.
	It definitely was a kind of, I want to say narcissism, because one likes to think that the decent qualities in oneself are also in the world.
	Because, you know, when you recognize that they're a bit more rare than you think, it's a pretty appalling realization.
	And it was a defense mechanism for me, right?
	For me, growing up, I had to, James.
	I had to believe that I was stuck in a dungeon that I could break out of and join the world, which was not a dungeon.
	That's the only thing that kept me...
	I mean, I couldn't have gone on otherwise.
	If you spend your whole life clawing your way out of a tiny prison cell and you break into another tiny prison cell, I mean, why would you even live?
	I had to believe I'm trapped in a cave.
	I claw my way up through the stalagmites and I claw my way up through the tree roots and I claw my way up through the permafrost and I get out and I'm in the air and I'm on the fruited plains and there are wildebeest and there are northern lights and I can climb the mountains and that's why I'm fighting to get out of where I am.
	But...
	What was necessary for that hope, for that motivation, was the rejection of empiricism.
	I had to believe in the glory of where I could get to.
	And by the glory of where I could get to, you notice my fantasy, even when I was just talking now, I just noticed, didn't have any people in it.
	Wildebeest!
	No people, right?
	You environmentalist view.
	Right.
	Because, and I'm sorry to make this about myself, but it will hopefully make sense in a sec.
	What I had to ignore, James, when I was a kid, struggling to claw my fingernail-less way out of my tiny little Stone cell.
	Was that the whole world was passing by and the lock was on the other side of the door and the key was actually in the lock but nobody bothered to turn it and open it for me.
	Nobody reached into my family and gave me comfort, support.
	So the lack of empathy in the world was evident to me even as a child.
	I just couldn't accept it.
	I couldn't.
	Because if I thought I'm going to break out from one prison to another, the world is a prison.
	And everyone is a jailer.
	And everyone is a prisoner.
	And everyone is a torturer.
	If I had believed that, as a child, as a young man, that there was no place to struggle to Where I could get a sniff of clear air and a vision of anything other than 30 or 40 square feet of rock, I couldn't have done it.
	So I had to believe that I was clawing my way out of the prison to join people like me without realizing, or maybe realizing, but without really processing how few people there were like me, like you.
	In the world.
	And that that level of yearning to break free is granted to few.
	And it is true that by breaking free we can inspire some other people to break free.
	But we also inspire significant amounts of resentment for obvious reasons.
	And so to circle back to sort of what Maybe a valuable perspective for you, James, is I've noticed that there are moments where someone has a capacity to change.
	Something's happened.
	Someone has seen something.
	There's been some escalation.
	Something has happened.
	And you hear this from people who are, you know, like recovering addicts, you know, When I woke up face down in that ditch in Vegas with that severed hand of a hooker in my front pocket, I really had to change.
	Like something happened, right?
	When I came home and realized that I left my baby in the crib, like something, there's a moment, there's a moment.
	And people who have changed and improved can often look back and say, oh, that was the moment.
	That was, I got it.
	Or at least something opened up for me.
	There are these moments where the planets align and free will shoots down a rope.
	Down this well.
	Down into this prison.
	Free will.
	Choice.
	A way to escape the satanic merry-go-round of history.
	It drops down in a moment.
	It's right there.
	It's right there.
	And I've seen this with people.
	I've seen this with people.
	A friend of mine once said, he said, I can feel my heart turning to stone more and more every week.
	And I'm frightened I'm becoming the golem.
	It's a magic animated creature made out of some element of fire or whatever.
	And this idea that he was turning to stone, and not in that fun ELO way, that he was turning to stone, that his heart was becoming more like a stone.
	It was calcifying his capacity for love.
	And, you know, of course, I struck like a cobra, right?
	Therapy, go, you know, found him someone, and come on, do it!
	This is your moment!
	The rope is down the well!
	Grab it!
	For God's sakes, it doesn't come back!
	This may be your last chance.
	It may be your last chance.
	The Singing Detective is a show, which my therapist recommended I watch it.
	Not the new one, there's an old one in England.
	It's pretty good.
	Long.
	It's good.
	Therapist.
	The man has got terrible...
	His unconscious was in full revolt, as it was said.
	And he's got terrible hypochondria and somatization, like the manifestation of psychological distress and physical symptoms.
	He's trying to get out of a wheelchair.
	And his therapist says, come on, come on, it's now or never.
	And I remembered, I talked about that.
	Now or never.
	The never part was terrifying to me.
	Never.
	It's now or never.
	You do it now or it will never, ever happen.
	And if people knew the stakes of those moments when the rope comes down the well and you can get out, you can get out of the prison, the door swings.
	You know, it's like those doors that have those arms that push them back.
	The wind blows the door open.
	You can walk through it or it's going to close and lock forever.
	It's that moment you can get out.
	But you have to seize it.
	You know that carpe diem, seize the day.
	Seize the day.
	It should really be seize this day.
	Seize the only day.
	Seize the day.
	Eh, tomorrow will be another day.
	No, it won't.
	The rope ain't coming back.
	It's coming down and it's moving on.
	Want to be free?
	The rope is just coming down.
	She's coming down all like this.
	It's like this mothership just going over this planet.
	Everybody's stuck in a deep crater.
	And it's like fishing for possibility.
	This mothership and the future and the conscience and the possibility of the soul, of the mind, of the heart, of integrity.
	The ropes go down.
	Coming or not?
	Ropes going down.
	Can you grab it?
	Can you see it?
	Coming or not?
	And people just run away from the rope.
	Hide.
	Call up.
	Gollum style.
	Into a little snail.
	Pull the shell.
	Around themselves.
	I'm good here.
	I'm staying here.
	I'm sure it'll be back.
	Nope.
	It's not coming back.
	It's one way.
	By the time it circles the planet, three generations will have passed.
	Literally.
	Before the chance to break out comes back and this rope comes down.
	And you grab the rope or you don't grab the rope.
	But it's not coming back.
	And the reason I'm saying all of this It's because that moment for your neighbors, that was the moment.
	That was the moment for them.
	That was the rope coming down.
	Look, here a functional person has heard your dysfunction and is offering help.
	You understand?
	I don't mean that to sound condescending, but I... No, no, no.
	It makes sense, right?
	This was their moment.
	And the woman, God bless her, was ready.
	She was crying.
	She was ashamed.
	She got it.
	The rope was coming down.
	And you were there.
	And the future and a different possibility and a different future was right there for her.
	It's hard.
	The rope pulls you up.
	You get burns on your hands.
	You get cramps, aches, and you might fall.
	This is why people want to stay on the...
	If I try and get lifted out of a 200-foot well out of a rope, I may not have the strength.
	I might fall to my death.
	Terrifying.
	It's terrifying, right?
	And you were there, and this was the moment of choice.
	It's now or never.
	And you said...
	It sounds like, you said...
	I'm going to be accusatory.
	But you said the man is standing there.
	Stern, arms folded.
	No rope for you, right?
	No rope for us.
	And so they didn't choose the now.
	And now everyone only has the never.
	And that's the reality and that's the limitation.
	What you can't do anymore.
	The rope is passed.
	They made their choice.
	It's not coming back.
	I guess what I'm hoping for now is maybe some advice on how I can let go of that from my end.
	Let go of what?
	Of the need to want to throw more ropes to them or the emotional need.
	I haven't been doing anything since or stalking them, but I still feel there's a sense of You know, having to turn my back now and just leave them to it.
	And you know, that saddens me, I guess.
	I understand it's not my job or my place to go in and fix their lives.
	And you know, I probably couldn't do it if I tried, but to sort of knowingly Go, well, that was that.
	I tried.
	And now I'm walking away.
	It just saddens me a bit to have to do that when there's these children involved.
	Alright.
	You're not quite telling me the truth here.
	Okay.
	And I'm not sure why.
	It saddens you a bit.
	Come on.
	Come on.
	I just poured my heart out.
	And you're giving me, you know, I got a buffet over here and you're giving me half a cracker?
	Yeah, alright, well...
	It's more than a bit, isn't it?
	It is.
	And it's bigger than this family, too.
	Yeah, listen, if you didn't care so much, Europe might have a future.
	Not because of you, but just, this is the Caucasian curse, right?
	Pathological altruism.
	Pathological empathy.
	Yeah.
	It's why we ended slavery and why...
	The world may end us.
	So, no, it's a huge deal.
	And I'm not trying to tell you what you feel, but I can certainly sense the passion in you about this topic.
	And it's not just a little bit, right?
	I don't want to spend my time on just, you know, a little bit.
	You don't bring the search to the world because you stepped your toe, right?
	Yeah, that's right.
	No, it certainly highlights a very big problem for me, emotionally, I guess, and in the way I see the world.
	I'm halfway through reading Atlas Shrugged at the moment, and I'm just seeing this tiny, tiny collection of characters who I admire amidst an insane world.
	Yeah.
	I guess I'm not up to the part that gives me a great deal of hope yet that I'm enjoying the ride, but my feeling about this family and that book and the world at the moment is just, I guess, a feeling of despair that it may not be enough to find a collection of people who are free.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, it hurts.
	It hurts.
	Yeah.
	It hurts.
	Let me ask you something.
	We're all aware of the starving kids in India.
	The standard, I don't want this food.
	There are starving kids in India, right?
	You know that kids are starving to death every day and kids are dying of diseases every day.
	And How does that...
	Do you think about that in the same way?
	Does it strike you in the same way?
	I'm not saying it should or shouldn't.
	I'm just curious.
	I don't think it does...
	Nearly as much, if at all, now a day since I've sort of discovered the concept of individualism and been listening to your show for a year now and really digging into it and a lot of other things similar.
	I don't feel any sense of responsibility to those who are sort of Further from me and suffering that I, you know, that they're not impacting my life in any way.
	So I don't have that same need to go and save the world in that sense.
	But I do, I guess I tend to feel a sense of responsibility for the people who are part of my life in the real sense or part of my children's life.
	Well, and these are, of course, the kind of people, I mean, not just directly in terms of their kids are grown up.
	But I mean, these are the kind of people who are parenting a lot of kids in this world, right?
	And not a distant world, but the world you live in.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Right.
	And, you know, I've never fathomed, you know, maybe I'm just special case elected, I don't know, but I've never been able to fathom, James, how people can ignore reality and it's okay.
	I can't remember, I had this vulnerability in relationships.
	In lots of relationships.
	You know, romantic, friendship, business.
	Which is that I would really care about the consequences of stuff and other people wouldn't.
	I mean, I remember I had a friend I played with when I was a kid.
	And we shared toys and we kind of had a rule.
	Right?
	And the rule is, you know, if you take, like we would mix up toys.
	If you take the toy out, you have to put it back.
	You have to bring it back in, right?
	And he would just go back into his house.
	And I'd be with all these toys.
	Now, we were playing in a public area.
	There wasn't that bad a neighborhood in England, but nonetheless, I didn't want to leave the toys unattended.
	There was this kind of brinksmanship, right?
	Because he knew me better than I knew...
	He knew me to the point where if he just goes in and leaves the toys out, I could say, well, fine, I'm going in and leaving the toys out.
	And then someone could come along and steal their toys, right?
	But he'd just go in.
	And why he went in He knew I was going to clean it up.
	He knew I was going to pick up and take in all the toys, right?
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	And it's the same thing, too.
	Like, if I'm not getting along with someone, I've got to sort it out.
	I mean, I feel this.
	It's not horrible or anything.
	I feel this, you know, discomfort, you know?
	A tiny hemorrhoid of the brain.
	I feel this discomfort.
	It's like, oh, yeah, I've got to get to that, right?
	And if I deny reality, which, you know, I rarely do, but, you know, if I deny reality, it bothers me.
	But, like, so, what your neighbors are doing, to me, would be the equivalent of me holding out five-pound weights crucifixion style.
	Like arms stretched, right?
	Like making a T. You know, ah, you know, first Couple of minutes, probably okay, you know, but, you know, it gets progressively more uncomfortable until I put my arms down, right?
	But other people, it's like they got these five-pound weights and they're walking around.
	They look ridiculous, but they don't get tired of it.
	They don't even seem to notice it.
	This unreality doesn't trouble them.
	Yeah.
	And so your neighbors are dedicated to unreality.
	Like, they never told you Why their kids aren't playing with your son, right?
	No, no.
	And, you know, I don't know for a fact that they've given that instruction, but I agree with your appraisal that it's probably the case.
	What?
	What do you mean you don't know for a fact?
	Well, I haven't witnessed it, you know.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	Beyond a reasonable doubt is not you have to witness it.
	Sure.
	OJ did what OJ did, even though there were no fingerprints, no motor weapon, and no direct witnesses.
	Well, who survived?
	So...
	You don't have to see it, but obviously kids don't just suddenly decide not to play with someone they haven't had an altercation with, right?
	Yeah.
	So, yeah, that's what they did.
	And that's a shitty thing to do to you.
	It's a shitty thing to do to your son.
	And there's this unreality.
	Kids used to play together.
	Now they don't.
	And no one's talking about it.
	And, you know, what can you do?
	You can't do anything.
	People committed to unreality, what can you do?
	They're crazy.
	You know, they're functionally crazy, but that's only because society is crazy, right?
	But they're kind of crazy.
	And what can you do?
	You can't do anything.
	You can't make people be real.
	No.
	You know, it's the old thing.
	You can lead a horse to water.
	You can't make a drink.
	No.
	And I understand why.
	I mean, it makes perfect sense to me as to why they'd be the way that they are.
	And it probably has more to do with their older kids than their younger kids.
	Because they're probably desperately hanging on to the last shreds of remaining dominance-based authority that they have with their older kids.
	And if it were just the younger kids, they might be able to change course.
	And even with the older kids, changing course would be a better thing.
	But it is way harder to change your parenting later on.
	Way harder.
	Way harder.
	And so their older kids, you know, probably acting out, disrespecting, you know, all this kind of garbage, which comes, you know, out of the parenting.
	And if they were to say to those kids who are spoiling for fights and who have No respect for their parents.
	You know, sorry, we did it all wrong with you.
	Sorry, we should have negotiated.
	We shouldn't have yelled.
	We shouldn't have spanked or whatever they did.
	We shouldn't have just been jerky parents.
	Well, what's going to happen if they feel they're in this life or death struggle for the few remaining shreds of authority that they have with their older children if they were to admit all of that?
	Well, that'd be that.
	Yeah.
	Well, they feel, you know.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, basically, what you're saying is, I know you're being chased by a shark, but I need you to jump off the water skis.
	Like, nope.
	I'm staying on the water skis because that big fish is getting closer.
	Jaws, too.
	Right?
	So, I think that's the sort of depth and complexity.
	Yeah.
	They need to keep their family away from you.
	But at the same time, they can't say, we have to move away from these people, because, you know, that would be admitting that there's a problem.
	Yeah.
	So they just, you know, hands in the ears, European style, la la la.
	I'm sure everyone's going to integrate.
	And you could ignore reality, but reality doesn't ignore you.
	So I think that's their commitment, that you have become functionally like a toxin, like environmental toxin of health to them.
	Good.
	And you have no obligation to bring reality to them.
	And there's no possibility of doing it anyway.
	Because the parents have already, what they have signaled to you is you are not to have any influence on our children.
	So that's clear.
	And what can you do?
	You can't have influence on children if their parents are opposed to that influence.
	That will make things very unpleasant.
	And it would be counterintuitive to the kind of influence I want to be.
	These kids are better off by simply having you in the environment.
	I mean, they have an example of peaceful parenting right next door, right?
	Yeah.
	And you have...
	You will be providing them with that example.
	And so...
	That's the best you can do.
	Like, what I do...
	Resound.
	It's just a click away.
	It's right there.
	It's never been as available to get philosophy.
	To get your philosophy on.
	Do you?
	Even philosophy, bro.
	It's right there.
	Where's the barriers?
	Nobody's got to sign up for some big expensive class or go to Harvard.
	You don't have to go to the top of a Tibetan mountain, sit in a monastery for 20 years in saffron robes.
	Just a click away.
	It's just a click away.
	And what else can I offer?
	So, you know, you can't save these kids, but you will be around as an environment.
	And, of course, you know, the great challenge is that the degree to which you are Focus on this is the degree to which you're less available to your kids.
	Yes.
	True that.
	And the curse of the universalization, again, that's sort of the curse of the European and European-derived cultures.
	Europeans care about universalization.
	Most other cultures are just very high in-group preference cultures.
	And there are, you know, mathematical models.
	That show that if you are a group competing with other groups and the other groups have in-group preferences and you don't, you lose.
	Every time.
	And this family cares about maintaining their own structure.
	They have a little tribe with a very strong in-group preference.
	And you are willing to sacrifice your time and energy to help them, which means you have an out-group preference.
	You are willing to sacrifice maybe money, time, resources, time with your son, whatever, to help them, which is nice, I guess.
	But you've got to start having in-group preference.
	You've got to start having an in-group preference because your family comes first.
	And the time we spend worrying about everyone else.
	I mean, in terms of we want to help them, we want to have sympathy.
	When the world does that, I'm willing to match it to some degree.
	But I'm done with leading off with that stuff.
	I'm done with that just being an absolute regardless of the relationship.
	That's, you know, if you're in a relationship with an abusive person, you don't just keep being nice to them.
	I guess you do if you're codependent.
	I'm not calling you this, right?
	I mean, it's more frustrations with European culture as a whole because you're not, you know, you're not losing sleep and all that.
	But Treat people the best you can the first time you meet them, and after that, treat them as they treat you.
	And if they have no interest in reality, great.
	You know, how's the weather?
	How about them sports team?
	Hope you're doing well, and there's a cold going around, so you better get some hell out of it.
	Whatever, I mean, just, you know, if they're not interested in reality, okay.
	Yeah, I can do small talk.
	Yeah.
	That helps.
	Okay, good.
	Good.
	All right.
	Well, thanks a lot for the question.
	That was very helpful.
	And, you know, anything that lets me trip over the landmine of a ranch is always a plus for me.
	No, I really appreciate it, Steph, and I really appreciate the work that you and everyone over there is doing.
	It's been really meaningful in my life and in my children's life already, and in my marriage.
	It's been a very, very positive influence on all the people who are most important to me, so I have to thank you for that.
	Oh, I appreciate that, and I certainly appreciate everything that you're doing.
	With your family and with your kids.
	That's the way.
	Uh-huh, uh-huh.
	We save it.
	I don't know.
	I got music in my bones today.
	No, I appreciate that, James.
	Thanks a lot for your call.
	Thank you, Stefan.
	See you, mate.
	Take care.
	Alright, thanks James.
	Up next is Eli.
	Eli wrote in and said, As a naturalized American citizen with a secular upbringing and a religious adult past, I'm currently in a relationship which is the longest and most stable I've ever had, but I'm wondering if it is time to end it, because I feel painfully dissatisfied.
	She treats me well, but the relationship seems to lack a few key elements to me.
	Most of the romantic relationships in my life have been nominally abusive at best and significantly abusive at worst.
	And I'm seeking the correct path here.
	That's from Eli.
	Eli, how are you, my friend?
	I'm doing great.
	How are you, Steph?
	I'm doing well, thank you.
	And good.
	Doing good, I hope, as well.
	So, nominally abusive.
	I can't quite separate those syllables into something that I can understand.
	So, what does that mean?
	That was actually supposed to say minimally abusive.
	Oh, minimally.
	Okay, got it.
	So, minimally abusive, what does that mean?
	I mean, that helps, but it doesn't help all the way.
	Minimally abusive, I suppose, meaning there was some dependence on me to essentially be a provider.
	In my late teen years, early 20s, even though the relationship hadn't really been that deep that I should really assume that role.
	I was expected to essentially be a mind reader, but a lot of these I suppose are sort of commonalities that many women have.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	So...
	A lot of the relationships I've been in have lacked stability and I took some time to figure out if there were any similarities and I did find that a lot of the longer relationships that I've been in there has been expectations of me that have been significantly high and furthermore they were very poorly communicated so I was almost set up to fail in these relationships by the women that I chose.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Right.
	So you spend half your time chasing around some discontented woman saying, what's wrong?
	Nothing.
	Or if you have to ask, that's the problem.
	Pretty much.
	And by the way, before we begin, I do want to highlight that the first video of yours that I saw was what pisses me off about the Paris attacks.
	And that's what really got me interested in your show.
	So I should do this show just screaming like the whole time, right?
	Is that...
	Sorry, just kidding.
	Like my conversation with you, I should be screaming.
	Go ahead.
	There's something about the passion that you have in what you do that really brings me back again and again.
	Oh, good.
	Thank you.
	And I do want to say one of the shows that you did that was the most...
	I don't know if heartfelt is the right word, but really just impressive was The Antidote to Cruelty.
	Um, it was something that, uh, actually, uh, uh, Mike had even put a disclaimer in there about saying, you know, don't, don't listen to this one before you go to bed.
	And I thought, well, how bad could it be?
	And it was, it was just, it was my, it was, it was mind blowing to, to listen to this from beginning to end at three in the morning.
	Right.
	So, so I wanted to find out, uh, you know, how you view the situation that I'm in, which is, It's sort of one day is great, the next day is a disappointment, and I want to know what the best path is for me to take.
	And since I am having some trouble laying out the foundation of where to begin, I was hoping that you could pepper me with questions to figure out where we stand.
	Okay, well what does disappointing mean?
	You said some days are great, some days are disappointing.
	The disappointing parts I could summarize in Essentially, communication.
	There are some times where I'm telling her about a significant problem that I'm facing, and many times I feel like she doesn't take my side.
	And while that's not a prerequisite for me or a requirement, it seems to be happening pretty often that she's becoming an unwitting adversary.
	Aside from that, there are Many topics of conversation which are unfortunately no-go zones.
	I like what?
	Religion, politics, history, economics.
	Okay.
	The things that I'm knowledgeable, interested in, whatever you want to call it.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, I have to tiptoe carefully about them because she either gets uninterested or...
	Doesn't really reciprocate the conversation.
	Right.
	Is she just staring at you, waiting for you to stop talking so she can go do something else?
	I wouldn't say that it's that aggressively ignorant, but it's more of she'll just let me talk while she spaces out.
	And I would say the other disappointing fact is that the The frequency of sex has diminished significantly over the time that we've been dating.
	And it's come to the point that I've had a conversation with her, I believe, five times, letting her know that I'm unhappy about it.
	And it works as an improvement method for so long, but then it kind of slips back into...
	Into the decreasing pattern.
	Right.
	Right.
	And how long have you guys been going out?
	It's about two and a half years.
	And I'm sorry to ask you these numbers, but I just want to get a sense.
	So, sexual frequency when you started going out?
	Three, four times a week.
	And now?
	Three, four times a month.
	Ooh.
	It actually got so bad that about a year ago I started keeping count.
	That's grim.
	Yeah.
	That's grim.
	Do you initiate?
	99% of the time.
	I have to be having a day that is so bad that...
	Willing to risk the humiliation.
	No, no.
	I have to be having a day that is just so bad that can't be matched for her to initiate.
	Which makes me feel terrible in a different way.
	Now, did you get fat?
	Actually, before we started dating, I lost a lot of weight.
	I went on a very aggressive diet and I got into the best shape of my life.
	Sorry, when you said a very aggressive diet, I picture you with gym tights punching a cheesecake.
	But anyway, I just wanted to get that out of my head, but please go on.
	I actually dropped 65 pounds in four months.
	Are you kidding me?
	I'm serious.
	What, did you just sew off a leg?
	Jesus, that's astounding.
	I mean, is that safe?
	It's disciplined eating, and it is no cheating, no cheat days.
	And it's just every single thing that you eat, you're accountable for.
	And what brought this on?
	I was having chest pains.
	I was always out of breath.
	I was very unhealthy.
	Good for you.
	I got into better shape, although right now I'm probably 15 pounds heavier than at my best.
	But a week ago I signed up with a personal trainer, so I'm going to be hitting the gym hopefully five times a week.
	Good for you.
	Yeah, I just clocked in at 195, which is...
	At least 30 pounds down from my max.
	So yes, that's a good thing.
	And of course, you know, it's actually 60 pounds because 30 of it is pure muscle.
	Unfortunately, it's not visible because it's between my ears.
	But anyway.
	So, okay.
	So, what's her life like?
	Is she...
	I mean, I almost don't even need to ask.
	How unhappy is she in her life as a whole?
	As far as I can understand, she is...
	A lot more happy than unhappy.
	Both of her parents are still married.
	Still alive, obviously.
	Both are...
	Well, I mean, I guess you have to be blunt these days.
	Both of them were only married once.
	Her brother is married with two children.
	So there are no divorces in her family.
	And there's actually no divorces in my family either, except for mine.
	You had a divorce prior to this relationship.
	I had a divorce immediately prior to the relationship that I'm in right now.
	And unfortunately, the divorce that I had is significantly relevant to my current relationship.
	Okay.
	I always like to piece this one together myself, but I think I'll defer and let you, Eli, take the lead on explaining what that means.
	Was it an affair?
	No, no.
	It was not an affair.
	My ex-wife Was, if I can put it kindly, a parasite of galactic proportions.
	Abusive, insulting, tried to cut me off from friends, tried to cut me off from family.
	I mean, there was a point where I was willing to give up almost anything to rebuild the marriage to the best of my ability.
	But at a certain point, I realized that there was no going back, and I let her know that I'm only going to try until this date.
	If things don't improve, then I gotta call back the troops.
	What does call back the troops mean?
	Meaning initiate a separation.
	Okay.
	Just never heard it referred to that way before.
	And unfortunately, even though we had no kids, no pets...
	No house.
	Each of us had our own car that was fully paid for, and she had a mountain of college debt.
	She initiated a separation slash divorce process before I could that was so devastatingly long and painful that, if I can put it mildly, she contacted Battered women's shelters on more than one occasion claiming that I was abusing her.
	Of course, they never took her claims seriously.
	She claimed that I stole her diamond ring even though she had overtly threatened to sell it because I refused to pay for her fourth college degree while we were married.
	Right.
	She was a person who quit her job a week after we got married and never held a job since, but instead just worked out four hours a day and just sat at home doing practically nothing the rest of the time.
	Wow.
	And how pretty was she?
	Well, I'm embarrassed to say that she was probably a six.
	Well, you were overweight too, right?
	Actually, I lost all the weight right before I started dating her.
	So what...
	Oh, fuck.
	Sorry, Eli.
	Your story makes no sense to me.
	And I apologize for my...
	It could just be my complete lack of understanding, but I just want to be frank.
	And first of all, huge sympathies for this.
	What a complete nightmare.
	I mean, I remember working with a guy who was going through a divorce, and every time the phone rang, his face would turn pale.
	Dear God, let it not be the lawyer.
	And he was like, oh, never, ever, ever get divorced because it was a mess.
	She threatened me for $20,000.
	No kids, no pets, no house, no assets.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Divorce process.
	Yeah, she doesn't want to work, right?
	The divorce process actually was longer than our marriage by four days.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I am sorry.
	That is a nightmare.
	And that is, of course, the kind of nightmare that keeps a lot of guys watching anime with one hand, right?
	I mean, that is a complete nightmare.
	And I'm really sorry about all of that.
	And now I have some tough questions.
	Go for it.
	All right.
	How could your family and friends let you get involved with this lunatic, evil woman?
	My parents actually exerted a lot of efforts while being diplomatic to prevent the marriage.
	My closest friends even said this was a bad idea.
	No, but I mean, did they basically threaten to cut your balls off if you went through with it?
	Like, I mean, sometimes that's what you gotta get to, right?
	Well, nobody...
	Metaphorically.
	Nobody gave me such explicit metaphors, but I had a lot of conversations with close friends of mine, and one close friend in particular was very explicit and very repetitive about how much he cares about me, and he doesn't want me to ruin my life, and...
	He was very much against me marrying her.
	But at the end of the day, he couldn't prevent me from doing it.
	It was my terrible choice.
	Okay, so why did your friends and family have so little authority with you?
	Because I was enamored with religion.
	You what now?
	I was enamored with religion.
	I was living in a religious community.
	I've read the Bible cover to cover.
	I don't think there's a hidden 11 commandment.
	Thou shalt marry the crazy eggs.
	But help me understand.
	I'm sorry to be snarky, but what?
	It was my understanding and my participation in this religious community that led to me thinking that this was the right match for me.
	All of the women that I had dated prior, they were not as involved in the religion.
	And being that both myself and the woman that I ended up marrying were both at relatively equal progression in getting involved in our religious lifestyles, it felt like a logical choice, even though it's kind of an oxymoron at this point.
	I felt it was the right decision for my spirit.
	For your spirit.
	So is this a religion that tells you to ignore the virtues of the woman?
	No, it's actually a religion that tells you to worship the woman.
	Oh, so in a way it is.
	Tells you to ignore the virtues of the woman, right?
	I suppose in a way you're right.
	And how did you get involved in this community?
	They have a very strong outreach while also being very non-threatening, very welcoming.
	And it's actually a religion that does not seek converts.
	So I felt that my involvement in it over many years was voluntary.
	And I felt at the time very much, and I feel even now to an extent, that I did benefit from From being involved in it from a perspective of becoming a more ethical person, having a more genuine character, and being aware of how my decisions impact others.
	And were you raised religious?
	Was this a different religion than the one you were raised in?
	I was...
	Well, I'm from the former Soviet Union, which means that there was no religion, but there was a...
	Well, there was, just not a God-based one.
	It's a communism, but yeah, okay.
	The religion that essentially I joined was the same one that our ancestors were essentially a part of, and I felt it was natural since these are my people.
	Okay.
	And were the family members involved in this religion as well?
	No.
	Were they atheists?
	My family are not atheists, but they are non-religious people.
	Right.
	They lived most of their lives under Soviet communism, which to a degree sort of dulled the desire for anything religion-connected.
	Right.
	Right.
	So how did you even find out about this religious group if they don't seek any converts?
	Well, they don't seek converts, but they do seek to involve essentially our people that are not religious.
	Sorry, can you say that again?
	They don't seek converts, but they seek people who are already part of our tribe, just not observing the commandments.
	Okay, okay, okay.
	Alright.
	So there were people in your life who thought that your marriage to this woman was a terrible idea, but you didn't listen to them because you felt that there was a religious commandment or you would be a better worshipper if you married her.
	I felt that since nearly all of the religious members in my circle in my life We're supportive of the marriage in the beginning while all of the non-religious people were against it.
	I felt that it was a desire to drive a spike between myself and my religious involvement which I suppose people in my life such as my family and friends felt had alienated me from them and I was skeptical to take their advice.
	Right.
	And the people in the religious community were keen on you marrying this woman?
	Yes.
	Because they had known me for quite some time.
	They didn't know her as well.
	But at the same time, all the people in this community didn't know me as long as my friends or family.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Right.
	How long after you got your divorce or was it in the divorce?
	Because people say, I dated after my divorce.
	I don't know if that means the separation or during or when the paperwork is finalized, but what was the gap between marriage, but getting divorced and getting into this relationship?
	So, the length of time that it took between the initiation of the separation and the conclusion of the divorce was approximately...
	One year and two months.
	About two months.
	I'm sorry, say how long again?
	It took about one year and two months to get divorced.
	Holy crap, so you were married for one year and two months minus four days, right?
	Exactly.
	Wow.
	And again, it's a divorce that was considered a non-contested or uncontested divorce.
	It could be wrapped up in a few weeks.
	This galactic parasite stretched it for so long.
	She called insurance agents, police.
	She made my life a living hell.
	Yeah.
	Because I refused to subsidize her lifestyle of living beyond her means.
	Right.
	And I started dating the woman that I'm together with now two months into the separation.
	Two months into the separation?
	The woman that I'm dating now, when I met her My intention was for it to be just a rebound that I wouldn't think about again.
	Okay, so why would she get involved with a guy currently in the midst or just initiating a divorce with a crazy woman?
	I didn't tell her.
	Okay.
	Okay, so how long did it take for you to tell her the basic facts that she needed to know about your life situation?
	The worst thing is that I thought long and hard about if I should tell her or if I should not tell her.
	And after consulting many sources, I came to the conclusion that if I told her upfront that I'm in the middle of a divorce process, or even if I told her that I already am divorced, Then I would risk being viewed not as me, but as that divorced guy.
	I felt like it would lower my sexual market value artificially.
	And I felt like that was a disservice to myself, even though I was not fully honest with this woman.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	No, no, man.
	Eli, you can't weasel me, bro.
	Don't give me this.
	I was not fully honest.
	You lied to her by omission about crucial information.
	Come on.
	We've got to be men about this, right?
	You're right.
	I made a...
	Okay, so don't try and minimize it with me, because that's pretty gross, right?
	I'm not trying to minimize.
	What I do...
	Yes, you are.
	Yes, you are.
	You are.
	You said I didn't tell her the exact total...
	No, come on.
	You didn't even tell her you had just separated from your wife and that the wife was crazy and that, you know, I don't know if the charges had happened or that she'd run to the women's shelter or like that you were in the beginning of a long, grueling, ugly, expensive, vicious, dangerous process.
	That's more than just I didn't tell her the complete truth, right?
	I was not honest with her.
	You lied to her about very essential.
	I mean, we just have to call it what it is, right?
	I'm not trying to make you feel bad.
	We have to call it what it is, right?
	I know.
	And how long did it take for her to find out?
	Did you tell her at some point?
	Obviously you did, I assume.
	Or did you?
	Did you?
	So, she confronted me on our third date, whether or not I was married.
	Why?
	Why did she confront you?
	So I'll explain why.
	And it's a little bit of a complicated timeline, but I'll try to be as clear as I can.
	On our third date, she asked me if I was married because she had stalked my Facebook.
	And I use stalk loosely.
	She had checked your Facebook.
	She checked my Facebook.
	And even though I had removed all of my...
	All the photographs and posts that would have revealed the truth.
	There was one post that showed me sitting at a restaurant with a ring on my finger.
	So you really worked to hide this from people.
	It wasn't like I just refused to tell her, but this was a big project for you to make sure that nobody could even easily find out that you were married, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so this is a big deception.
	This was not a passive deception, right?
	No, this is a choice that I made that I unfortunately followed through.
	And throughout the course of this process, I felt like I was piloting a ship with really no map.
	The reason that I made these decisions to some degree was because at any given moment, I had no idea when this divorce process was going to end, how bad it was going to be.
	There was so much uncertainty, not only with the divorce process, but also with a relationship that I had gotten into that I chose to go into.
	I don't think we...
	I just tell you, Eli, that from my perspective, I think we've had enough of talking about your needs.
	I'm trying to get you to focus on the needs of the woman here, because this is the issue that you're having with at the moment, right?
	Okay, I get that for you, in a certain way, it was advantageous For this woman to not know that you were married or getting divorced or whatever.
	I get that that had a certain kind of material advantage to you in that it didn't lower your sexual market value.
	So I completely understand how your needs were served in the short term in this way.
	So she saw this picture on Facebook of you and then she asked you this and then what?
	And I used very careful wording for To say something that was technically true while omitting a lot of the rest of the truth in order to satisfy the question at the time.
	So you lied to her?
	I lied by omission.
	Come on.
	I don't care about the by omission.
	Yes.
	Come on.
	I mean, this is like saying, you know, if you have sex with someone and they didn't ask you if you have AIDS or herpes or something, the law doesn't care.
	And the moral law doesn't care.
	I mean, if you're withholding essential information, especially when someone kind of asks, that's lying.
	By omission, people add that like it's somehow better.
	It's not.
	It's not.
	In fact, in some ways, it's even worse.
	At this pace, you were directly asked, right?
	So you made up some bullshit that threw her off the scent, right?
	And then what happened?
	Throughout the course of the divorce process, not knowing when it would end and with all the different twists and turns, I tried to reveal more about myself and my past to the woman that I was now dating in order to not only give her the honesty that she deserved but also to kind of get the monkey off my back because it was eating me up too that I wasn't being up front with her.
	And there came a point.
	Oh my god.
	It's not that you weren't being up front with her.
	You were lying and deceiving.
	Not being upfront is like, well, that was kind of upfront, but not totally.
	You just need to, you know, the beginning of wisdom, call things by their proper names.
	You were deceiving her, you were lying to her in order to have sex, in order to have a relationship.
	You were falsifying most of your existence to this woman, right?
	And that's the way that she looked at it when I did tell her the full story.
	Well, it's not just the way she...
	I mean, that's what it is.
	It's not just the way she looked at it, right?
	I understand that there's the truth and there's also the way people see the truth.
	The truth is a very large object.
	Hang on.
	Let's get something to more.
	Before you start giving me relativistic crap, I mean...
	In the religion that you were pursuing, was this a sin?
	Was it a sin, thou shalt not bear false witness?
	Was it something that was wrong that you were doing according to the religious tenets that you had at the time?
	Very much.
	Right.
	So, that didn't really help you become an honest person, right?
	It didn't help me because the divorce, or I should say the marriage, started to fall apart around the same time that my Commitment to the religion did.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So you were still part of the religion, but you didn't have the tell the truth and shame the devil stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Now, how long...
	Look, I appreciate you being frank about this, and I hope it's not too unpleasant, but how much time passed when Between her accepting your distraction story on day three and her finding out the truth.
	How did she find out the truth?
	Well, I eventually found out that she never fully bought the story that I was giving her.
	But to answer your question, about a year and...
	No, I'm sorry.
	Two years and a couple of days after we started dating.
	Which is also nearly a year after the conclusion of the divorce process.
	Right.
	Is when I told her the full truth which she didn't know because I held it from her.
	Wow.
	Once the divorce was finalized and essentially All the facts on the ground had now solidified so that there's no more changes that were gonna happen.
	I had a difficult choice to make whether to tell her what was the actual truth or to keep it to myself forever.
	And I'll be upfront with you that there were a lot of advantages to simply letting the story be as it was and never speak of it again.
	But I did choose to tell her the truth and I was not holding back any details from what happened and why things happened the way they did and how I justified in a moment of weakness combined with poor decision making why I held the truth.
	No, no, come on.
	Dude, two years is not a moment.
	Many moments.
	Come on, man.
	Come on.
	You're not...
	I'm not justifying what I did.
	You're constantly...
	Listen, you've got to listen back to this afterwards because I'm obviously not able to convince you in the moment.
	You are totally minimizing what you did.
	You got this woman into a two-year relationship based upon a foundational lie.
	And you say, in a moment of weakness, two years is not a moment.
	A moment of weakness is, you know, at 8.33...
	I told her a lie, but at 8.35 I told her the truth.
	I had a moment of weakness.
	That's two minutes, not two years.
	And again, I'm not just trying to make you feel bad, but we've got to be honest with each other, right?
	And I've got to tell you the facts.
	This is a fact.
	Okay.
	Were you deceptive with your wife when you were married?
	Absolutely not.
	Really?
	Zero percent deception.
	So you were completely honest with your wife, and then you were completely dishonest with the new woman?
	Yeah.
	Do you think that seems plausible?
	I'm just curious.
	I have to go with what you say.
	I mean, obviously, there's no witnesses.
	I mean, if you tell me that, I mean, I've got no choice but to believe you, but it seems a little doubtful to me that you'd become an expert liar from nothing.
	Without justifying or minimizing the bad decisions that I made in my current relationship, I was very honest with my ex-wife and the way that events unfolded, I had nothing but misery.
	And I'm sure this will come as no surprise to you, but...
	At a certain point, I began recording the date, frequency, and topic of fights and arguments with my wife.
	Right.
	Just to see if they correlated to anything, if there was any pattern, if I could somehow get ahead of whatever may have been causing it to try to improve things.
	In my marriage, we started having fights on day three.
	Right.
	Did you not have fights before you got married?
	Very, very infrequently.
	Okay, so when the current girlfriend, when she found out that you had been horrendously lying to her for two years, I... I don't...
	I mean, I can't process, I can't comprehend, but what happened?
	What did she do?
	I mean, of course, she got upset, she got angry, and so on.
	How did...
	God!
	I don't know what to say.
	I don't even know what to say.
	I mean, that's such a massive deception.
	That the idea that she would stay with you tells me...
	Well, first of all, that she wouldn't notice that you may be emotionally distant, emotionally distracted, that there may be something going on.
	It tells me that she apparently has the perceptiveness of your average soap dish.
	Did she not notice that you were going through this unbelievably horrendous, expensive, time-consuming, god-awful, dangerous legal nightmare?
	There's no clue?
	That's the thing.
	I had emotionally separated myself from...
	Suffering as much as I could throughout the divorce process to try to give her the boyfriend that she deserved.
	No, but you can't act like it.
	I mean, it's not like it's not happening to you.
	I felt like it was not her battle.
	No, I get that.
	But are you saying that you were exactly the same with her as if it wasn't happening to you?
	Yes.
	Okay, I just...
	I mean, that tells me about both of your level of perceptiveness then, right?
	If you have the capacity to be that split in your personality, that you can be exactly the same with a woman when you're currently going through a terrible, god-awful, dangerous divorce, you can be exactly the same with her as if you just weren't going through that divorce?
	I don't know what to say.
	That means that what you're able to offer a woman is not very much in terms of emotional availability.
	Because it's like you're so empty you have nothing to hide when you're going through this stuff with a woman.
	Like with the woman that you're with.
	It's like it's not even happening to you.
	I don't know if this makes any sense.
	I'm not sure I understand.
	Well, I mean, the people in my life, they walk into the room and I know what their mood is.
	I know if something's bothering them and I know right away.
	And they know when something's bothering me.
	They know right away.
	And that's little things.
	Something big and giant like this that the woman wouldn't know that this was going on with you?
	I did everything I could to not expose...
	Oh no, I get that.
	I get that.
	To the collateral damage of this process.
	No, I get that.
	I get that.
	So...
	And...
	So, you've been...
	You think you said you've been together...
	Two and a half years?
	Yes.
	At the moment?
	Okay.
	So six months ago she found out the truth that you'd been lying to her about being married and the divorce and all that, right?
	Yes.
	And do you have any idea why she stayed with you?
	I mean, how on earth is she supposed to trust you?
	One of the reasons that she stayed with me is because of the advice of her mother.
	All right.
	I'll bite.
	Why?
	What did her mother say that was...
	Because I asked you if she was happy and she said, oh, her family's not divorced and she's very happy and so on, right?
	First of all, I just, I mean, I don't know if your girlfriend has a permanently surprised expression and a little hole you inflate her with, but I mean, how can this...
	She's six months into finding just that she's been lied to and deceived for two years.
	And she's happy?
	And her mother is telling her, yeah, you know, this guy lied to you for two years, but, you know, you should really stay with him.
	What did her mother say was the big plus about being with you?
	Well, I'm not sure how much detail I should go into, but the...
	Well, no personal details, like nothing identifiable, but I'm just...
	What was her...
	Just give me her mother's reasoning as to why it's a great idea for her to stay with this.
	I mean, somebody lies to my daughter, man.
	I mean, it's not going to be a happy day for them.
	My girlfriend has not been honest with her mother about her past relationships.
	So in her mother's awareness, I am actually her first boyfriend.
	And to some degree, her mother sympathizes with my situation.
	And she sees the fact that throughout the whole time that we've been together, the fact that I'm good to her and that I treat her well.
	Sorry, good to the daughter?
	Yes.
	But you lied to her.
	With the exception of that.
	Well, it's like saying the guy is healthy with the exception of his head not being on his body.
	I mean, it seems like that's a fairly...
	Anyway, we've already gone over that.
	So the mom thought, okay, well, he lied.
	So the mom found out that you lied to the daughter for two years.
	And then she's like, well, you should stay with him because other than this weird ability to lie and be like he's not even lying, he's a great guy.
	I'm not sure if I could put it like that, but, you know, why not?
	Okay, well, that tells you, I think, everything you need to know about your girlfriend's father and the standards that the mother has.
	I'm not sure if I can see it that way.
	I mean, I've known her parents for, well, obviously about two and a half years, and they're very protective of their daughter.
	Oh, no, they're not.
	No, come on, man.
	I mean, I don't even know if you know what the truth is anymore.
	I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I don't even know if you know.
	Of course they're not protective.
	Listen, I'm telling you as a father, if some guy tried to pull this crap off my daughter, I don't even want to say.
	I don't even want to say.
	But then if I said, oh, yeah, you should stay with this guy.
	You know, he's still minimizing his lying to you and he pretends that He was just the same as if he wasn't lying, and he says truth is relative and doesn't even really believe there's such a thing as a lie, but he's a great guy to be with.
	I mean, that would not be being protective at all.
	You're a dangerous guy to date.
	You're a dangerous guy to date.
	You know that, right?
	I was hoping that I wasn't.
	You are.
	You are.
	Because if you're capable of this kind of lie, and you haven't gotten it in your heart, Right?
	You're still minimizing and you're still making up stuff like, oh yeah, no, she's a very happy person.
	No, a happy person would not put up with that in a relationship.
	That's a codependent person or a dependent person or whatever it is, right?
	And you say, oh, well, the parents are protective and everyone's happy and there's been no divorces and all that, right?
	This is not reality.
	As I see it.
	I'm not going to tell you what reality is.
	I mean, just as I see it.
	So, as far as why you're not having sex...
	Is this maybe a little clearer to you?
	Not really, because the issues as far as our communication and the intimacy began long before any of the divorce information came to light.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	Intimacy?
	Oh my god.
	Oh my god, man.
	Eli, you gotta get this.
	You were a false, fake person.
	Manipulative human being with her.
	Lying about the most important thing going on in your life.
	And you're saying that there were no intimacy problems.
	You weren't even there in the relationship.
	Because you were lying about just about everything important that you were going through.
	And you were hiding something that was essential for her to know which is that you'd married a crazy woman.
	And that means either you're surrounded by good people you don't listen to or you're surrounded by bad people you do.
	Either way, you're a dangerous guy to date!
	So you kept this information that you're a dangerous guy to date?
	And also, you can't be emotionally available when you're going through a big divorce.
	So even if you told her the truth, like if you'd gone, you know this for a fact, at least I hope that God for the sake of this woman, that this is what would happen, that you go on her and the first date you say, hey, I just separated from my crazy wife four days ago.
	Do you know what any sane woman would do?
	She would say, nice to meet you.
	Have a good day.
	Check!
	And you're paying for not telling me this before I showed up to the coffee shop, right?
	Yes.
	And you understand that.
	That you lied to her and she would not have chosen to have sex with you had you told her the truth.
	I agree.
	You had sex with her under false pretenses.
	And you're wondering why your sex life isn't good?
	No, I'm not wondering why it's not good.
	I'm wondering two things.
	How can we improve the relationship?
	Or if there is no way to improve it, is it time to go?
	What relationship?
	It's entirely founded upon a lie.
	It's like you're saying to me, Steph, I founded this business based on selling time machines.
	Do you have any time machines?
	No, but I'd like to know how to improve my business of selling the time machines I don't have.
	The whole thing's founded on falsehood.
	My opinion?
	My opinion.
	My opinion.
	You need to get to a therapist, and she sure as hell needs to get to a therapist to figure out why these are her standards.
	Listen, you may be a great guy in the future.
	You're smart.
	You're articulate.
	You lost some weight.
	You're intelligent.
	You may be a great guy in the future, but right now, you are a dangerous guy to date.
	Because you don't have much insight into how your behavior affects other people.
	And what that means is that you have to have people around you who aren't that affected by your behavior, who don't know the difference between you being there and you not being there, between you not going through a god-awful divorce and you going through a god-awful divorce.
	It means you have to have people around you who don't have depth, who don't have curiosity, who don't have intimacy, who don't know the difference between somebody who's emotionally present and somebody who isn't.
	So you're kind of a ghost in a world of ghosts, in my opinion, and that doesn't mean you can't deal with it.
	I think you can, but You've got to get to a therapist.
	You've got to talk to someone.
	I have.
	You have?
	I've not only gone to a therapist.
	I've even spoken with a graduate of neuroscience to see if there was any personality disorders that I'm dealing with, narcissism, any sort of...
	I mean, any disorders, a sociopathy, and everything came back negative.
	I spoke to a fully licensed...
	What do you mean you spoke to?
	I'm no expert, but I don't think you get a diagnosis of a personality disorder by speaking with someone.
	Do you go through a battery of tests?
	I did go through a battery of tests.
	Maybe it wasn't as long or full of a battery as it should have been.
	I don't know what that means.
	I mean, there's a test, and you go through it.
	I think you're just making stuff up now.
	I'm definitely not making stuff up.
	I spoke to somebody who's a graduate of neuroscience, who's familiar with...
	No, spoke to.
	We already went through that.
	It's a whole battery of tests.
	Anyway, but since this is where you are, and again, this is just my advice.
	I'm just some amateur idiot on the internet, as you know.
	But I think that there's a moral muscle that you...
	You might need to develop a little further.
	Because you don't seem to be experiencing a lot of guilt.
	How can you tell?
	Because you can't tell, but that's the whole point.
	You can't imagine how I could tell.
	That's the whole point.
	Because I know when people are present or not.
	I know when people are emotionally present or not.
	Because I'm emotionally present.
	It's like, you're watching me, it's like, here's what it's like, it's like, you're watching me, two languages you don't understand, and you're watching me speak to someone, and I'm like, oh, they don't speak my language, and to you it's all gibberish.
	But I do speak the language, and I know when somebody else is not speaking the language.
	So, my suggestion, I mean, I think the woman needs to get to the therapist, and I think you do too.
	And, you know, if you say you've already been, you know, then I'm out of answers.
	I mean, this is a philosophy show.
	I can't do anything with the issues that you're bringing to me.
	When I spoke to the therapist, it was a duration of therapy that lasted about three months, and it It ended with there being really no conclusive action that she recommended for me.
	And when did you see the therapist?
	This was right around the time that I told my girlfriend the truth about my past.
	So you saw a therapist right around the time you told your girlfriend the truth about your past, and the therapist basically said, Okay, you did lie and basically procure sex based on falsehoods.
	You manipulated this woman and you were able to keep that up for two years with no particular difficulty, but you're fine.
	To be honest with you, the therapist made much less progress in the conversation over three months than you and I did over an hour.
	Well, and that's probably why you chose her.
	And that's why I'm glad you called in.
	I'm working hard here, my friend.
	I'm working hard here because you do have some great skills, capabilities, and abilities.
	But I think that there's a little bit of hard work that might be valuable.
	I hear what you're saying.
	It's not healthy, in my opinion, to be able to convincingly lie to someone about something that important.
	For two years.
	You had an entire relationship based upon a false...
	Based upon lying.
	An entire...
	Because she wouldn't...
	And I mean that 100%.
	Because she wouldn't be in the relationship with you if you told her the truth.
	So she was in the relationship based entirely upon deception.
	She had sex with you based entirely upon deception.
	And you wonder why her sex drive is diminished?
	Like...
	You understand?
	I mean, there's harsh words that I could use about what it means to have sex with a woman based upon that level of falsehood.
	I won't use them.
	But the fact that you don't know why the sex life might be a problem.
	It's interesting that you say that you're surprised why I was able to emotionally not be there.
	And to clarify that further...
	I'm sorry, what do you mean to be emotionally not be there?
	Well, you said that I was not emotionally there for her.
	Yeah, I mean, if you're lying and hiding the most important thing that's going on in your life, a very dangerous thing that's going on in your life, right?
	I mean, if she'd found someone to accept all of these lies, I mean, you could have been charged with criminal stuff, right?
	With assault, with theft, grand theft, right?
	I mean, you could have gone to jail.
	That's some dangerous, dangerous stuff that was going on in your life.
	And you're saying to me, well, you know, it's pretty much the same as if it wasn't.
	The person that I was not emotionally there for was not my girlfriend at the time.
	It was actually the ex-wife.
	Okay, no, I get we're not going to...
	Listen, I've got to move on to the next call.
	I appreciate the call.
	I appreciate the call.
	I hope you'll think about what I'm talking about.
	But right now, I get that we're sort of at an impasse.
	Because I'm saying stuff you don't believe, and you're saying stuff I don't believe.
	And that's, you know, we'll just have to, I'm not going to say agree to disagree, because that's always a cop out.
	But I do appreciate the call.
	I certainly hope that I've at least given you some framework for understanding why there may be some issues in your relationship.
	And, you know, you should listen back to this call, and here's what my homework assignment to you, my friend, is this.
	Listen back to this call, and talk about the degree that you portrayed yourself as a victim, and then keep listening and see what happens.
	That's my only suggestion.
	And, you know, if this causes a twinge of Maybe something's awry, then I'd strongly suggest going to talk to someone and find yourself a good, tough therapist, not somebody who's just going to kind of nod and smile and take notes or whatever you had before.
	But that's my thought.
	But I do appreciate the call.
	It was very exciting.
	And I hope that you found some value in the feedback.
	I did.
	I really appreciate the time and energy you've put into this.
	All right.
	Thanks, man.
	All the best.
	You too.
	Alright, well up next is Nick.
	Nick wrote in and said, Is it okay to be manipulative as long as you know that your end goal will benefit the person you are manipulating?
	What if you think that the end goal is good, but it accidentally has a negative effect on others?
	Is the intention the only factor that gives a manipulative act a moral tint, or is it the outcome?
	That's from Nick.
	Well, hello Nick.
	Hey, how's it going Steph?
	Going well.
	You unfortunately must be subjected to my Nick joke.
	What are you talking about?
	I apologize.
	I apologize up front.
	It's a very, very funny movie that I saw with a young pre-Portley Val Kilmer called Top Secret, I think it's called.
	You've probably never seen it.
	You sound like a young guy.
	But in the movie, he's talking to a German woman with giant breasts, and he says, what is your name?
	And she says, oh, my name is Heidi.
	What does that mean?
	She whose breasts defy gravity.
	And she says, and what is your name?
	He says, my name is Nick.
	What does that mean?
	Oh, I don't know.
	Just something my father thought of while he was shaving.
	Anyway, let me just move on from that.
	I just, every now and then, when I hear the word Nick, it's a great joke, and I wanted to get it out.
	All right.
	I wish I could get the reference, too.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, now you do.
	And it's worth watching it.
	It's a funny poem.
	Yeah, yeah.
	No, man, I'm still kind of shocked by that last caller.
	Is there anything you wanted to mention about that?
	Because I'm trying to sort of realign myself to be really present to you, but that was a flyby to a bit of a canyon.
	Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
	I mean, I don't want to check myself.
	This wasn't a weird thing to be shocked about.
	You're really patient.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people out there really appreciate that too, man.
	Yeah, but anyway, shoot, I'm really excited, man.
	I've been listening to you for about three years, donating for about a year.
	I mean, I listen to a lot of bald white dudes, but you're definitely my favorite.
	Bald white dudes.
	Right.
	Least mockable rave act in history.
	All right.
	Okay, I appreciate that.
	So you like Phil Collins, too.
	Alright, fair enough.
	You don't know who that is.
	But anyway.
	Okay, so is this a theoretical for you, Nick?
	Or is this something that you were doing?
	Yeah, so I work as a salesman.
	So I'm a sales representative.
	I've been doing it for about 10 months or something.
	And I was like...
	Just working with my co-workers and everything, and they were just trying to give me the script.
	Because when you're selling something, you normally have basic points that you want to get across to your customer and everything.
	There are some points where it seemed almost robotic.
	They're just like, oh, here comes another customer, so let's just get out the script in their mind, of course.
	Don't give me the company, but what product or service is it that you're selling?
	It's specialty tableware.
	Okay, let's pretend that I'm a guy, and so you have to explain to me what that means.
	Because for me, when I was a bachelor, specialty tableware was a wooden spoon to eat soup with.
	But alright, go on.
	I mean, I can give you the entire spiel if you want.
	No, no.
	For God's sakes, do not give me the entire spiel.
	Otherwise, I might end up ordering it.
	No, definitely.
	Is it just like Downton Abbey stuff?
	Apparently, you need an entire shovel, a wheelbarrow full of silverware to eat for courses.
	Is it like that stuff?
	No, well, I mean, it's kind of like, quote-unquote, really high-class, expensive stuff.
	So we got gold and platinum on it.
	But it's just plates, bowls, and Platters, things of that nature.
	Do you feel that in your sales pitch you are being manipulative?
	No.
	I do believe in the product.
	It's definitely high quality stuff and reasonably priced.
	There's nothing wrong with that.
	It's just, you know, some of your conversations, I know we mentioned manipulation, and then, like, I'm very, what's the word, introspective?
	I really think about, like, what I'm doing in my own life, try to connect that back, so then I'm, you know, and so, yeah, I was just really thinking about it.
	Okay, so I don't, is this about your work or not?
	I don't understand.
	Or is this about something else?
	Yeah, sorry.
	We could just start as a general idea.
	Yeah, we could just make it more abstract, I guess.
	Alright, okay.
	Manipulating the way that others perceive you.
	Again, the trouble is the word manipulation.
	I mean, is it manipulative to bathe?
	You know, there's times when I don't feel like it, but, you know, I gotta bathe every day.
	It's just...
	It's being a dude, right?
	And is it manipulative to brush your hair?
	Is it manipulative to put on a nice shirt?
	Is it manipulative to have a good microphone so that you sound better?
	Right?
	I mean, what does it mean to be manipulative?
	That's the real question.
	Because manipulative kind of has a negative connotation, obviously, to it.
	Don't be so manipulative is not usually a compliment, right?
	Yeah.
	So, is it manipulative to show up at a job interview or at church wearing your Sunday best?
	Is it manipulative to propose to your girlfriend at a nice restaurant rather than at Arby's?
	It stands for roast beef, apparently, RB. Anyway, so, I don't know what it means to When you say manipulative.
	Now clearly, the last caller could reasonably be described as somewhat manipulative, right?
	Right, right.
	And I would not say that that's a wildly wonderful thing, but what do you mean by the term?
	Yeah, so I guess it's definitely not like how one would manipulate two Lego blocks so that one sits on top of another.
	It's more like...
	Maybe something that has to do with, of course there's a moral aspect to it, has to do with, I guess, how you treat a person, but I guess it has to do with the whole deception thing, you know?
	I mean, you don't want to...
	Well, that's lying.
	You're lying, yeah, okay.
	Okay, so lying is...
	Not generally good, right?
	I mean, I can certainly think of instances where lying would be perfectly moral.
	But, you know, someone's got a gun to your head or someone's been lying to you and you have to get your property back with a lie, you know, in the same way that taking stuff without someone's permission is not good unless they just stole your bike and you're getting it back, right?
	Ah, yeah.
	Okay, so lying isn't always...
	Oh, no, no.
	Lying is not, you know, the initiation of lying.
	It's like force, right?
	You're right, right.
	People say lying like they say force, right?
	It's the initiation of lying.
	That's the problem, right?
	It's not, you know...
	When someone starts lying to you, all bets are off, right?
	This is the curse.
	The Caucasian curse, as we've talked about, is to think that standards exist independent of interaction.
	It's an objective standard.
	Therefore, I must apply it under all circumstances and at all times, no matter what.
	That is not objectivity, right?
	That's being a robot.
	So, lying is generally...
	The initiation of lying is not that great.
	So, you know, if you said, my tableware will cure your diabetes, well, that's not really manipulative, right?
	However, if you polish your tableware and hold it up to the light and say, isn't it great?
	Okay, well, is that lying?
	No.
	You're not lying.
	You're showing things in their best light.
	Right.
	Right?
	Like I could do shows while taking a dump.
	I could.
	The technology exists.
	Right?
	Hope you're doing...
	Right?
	I could be yodeling as I pass them non-sideways, right?
	I could.
	Yeah, for sure.
	Would that be...
	Do you appreciate that I'm not?
	Yeah, yeah, I do.
	Is it manipulative?
	To not be dropping a deuce while I'm doing a show?
	No.
	It's just, you know, I want people to listen to something other than a tsunami-style backsplash.
	So, is it manipulative?
	I'm sorry.
	Like, so, the other day...
	This is pretty tragic, right?
	So, the other day...
	I was watching some show with my daughter and there was a guy dressed in a suit.
	She turned to me and she's like, Daddy, why is he dressed like that?
	You know, why?
	Because, like, I'm in my philosopher's retinue of sweatpants and a t-shirt.
	And she's like, I don't understand why that man has that flat snake around his neck.
	And it's like, oh, maybe, just maybe, I should dress up a little bit from time to time.
	But, um, so is it, is it manipulative, um, to put your best foot forward to, you know, if I'm going to go and give a speech, I could go in a pair of, you know, butt floss bikini speedos and a mesh top, right?
	Uh, is it manipulative for me to put on, I don't know, nice khakis and a sweater or something like that?
	Would I wear that if I was just lounging around at home?
	Probably not.
	Is it manipulative?
	Like putting your best foot forward, I don't, I don't see that that's manipulative at all.
	What that does is it shows that you have some sense of social decorum, which is kind of important.
	In other words, it shows that you have some reasonable common sense about the environment that you're in.
	And it also shows that you have some empathy towards the other person.
	In other words, if I showed up in some weird get-up to do a speech, that would be very Discombobulating for the audience, right?
	Or like distracting or something, right?
	Yeah.
	You know, why is he wearing a codpiece and some arm inflatables, which you use to learn how to swim, right?
	I mean, and why aren't the arm inflatables in his codpiece like any sensible person would be, right?
	And is it manipulative?
	No, it's just easier.
	Like, it's just easier.
	Because then people know, okay, well, he's coming to give a speech, he's dressed reasonably nicely, and Or dressed appropriately is probably the best way to put it.
	So, you know, he's been socialized and he understands that the message is important and he doesn't want to throw me off by me being distracted by some weird getup he's in or whatever, right?
	And this is, you know, and you can see this work the other way too, right?
	Like if you want to be into some particular subculture, like, you know, punk or goth or emo or whatever, then you will put the necessary accoutrements on.
	I mean, I remember once, years ago, I went to go and see a double bill of two bands I actually quite like, Alan Parsons Project and Yes.
	And afterwards, we went dancing.
	And we went to this club, and it was like, you know, nine-inch nails, you know?
	Bow down before the one you serve.
	You're gonna get what you deserve.
	And, like, everybody there was, like, full flower, freak and a half.
	And it's like it worked for them.
	That was their culture.
	That was subculture.
	They were dressed appropriately.
	Show up in a tux and you're going to get, I don't know, some coffin purse to the eyeball or something, right?
	So there's just a kind of efficiency when you portray yourself in a certain manner that says that you know what's appropriate to the situation, right?
	Is that manipulative?
	It's just efficient.
	It's just efficient that you know where you are, you know how you're supposed to behave, you know how you're supposed to act, and you know what the expectations are, and you're willing to accede to those expectations.
	I mean, this is why you show up to a job interview dressed appropriately.
	You know, if you've got a job interview at IBM, you show up in a blue suit.
	If you've got a job interview at Hooters, you show up with Helium balloons attached to your boobs or whatever goes on in interviews there, right?
	And it just shows that you know the environment, you know the expectations, and you're willing to surrender yourself to those expectations because, of course, if you're asking someone for a job, they're going to be in charge of you.
	So saying, look, I know what the standard is, I'm willing to surrender myself to the standard, well, you're already admitting that by showing up in appropriate outfits.
	So it's just, it's efficient.
	If you show up in wildly inappropriate outfits for a job interview saying, hey man, I don't subject myself to any standards.
	I don't subject myself to any norms.
	I'm not going to do what anyone tells me.
	Okay, well, I don't want to be your boss.
	Who would, right?
	Does that help at all?
	Is that manipulative?
	Oh yeah, that does help a lot.
	Just understanding that there's a set standard for anything.
	Just being able to understand that there's a standard to kind of meet, you know?
	That really makes a lot of sense now.
	And there is, of course, an implied contract, so to speak, when you go...
	Like, if you're giving a demonstration of your products, everybody's going to know that you'll be pointing out the best things and not pointing out any problems.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's understood.
	Right?
	In the same way that if you go on a first date with a woman and she's like got her hair done and makeup done and she's, you know, squeezed herself into some King Kardashian spillover bustier or whatever, it's understood that she's putting her best foot forward because she likes you.
	And that if you get married in 15 years, she's not going to be doing that every day.
	I mean, it's kind of understood, right?
	It is understood.
	And I don't know, like when I was a kid, we used to do all...
	I don't know if they still have this, but...
	We used to get these binders, you know, these little sort of flat workbooks, right?
	And they'd have lines.
	And my first page would be so neat, right?
	And then, you know, as the pages turned, you could see this, you know, it's like watching letters melt into epileptic spiders, you know, like they call it, you know.
	So there's a whole bunch of implied stuff.
	And when you're sensitive to it, you realize, like, it's kind of going on all the time, right?
	So if you want to chat with an attractive woman, Go to a restaurant and be a good tipper and you'll have a conversation.
	Is it because she likes you?
	She works for tips.
	Doesn't mean she doesn't like you.
	But everybody who's got half a brain knows that if you go to a strip club, they're not taking their clothes off because they think you're hot.
	They're taking their clothes off because you have money.
	Now, maybe people like the delusion or the illusion of something else or whatever.
	Maybe they're just storing something up for the spank bank later on or whatever.
	But there's a huge number of implied contracts in society.
	And they're really kind of fascinated to watch.
	This is actually the secret physics.
	It's not even that secret when you think about it.
	It's not the secret physics, you know?
	You don't have to sign a contract when you go to a mall that says, I promise not to pee in the fountain.
	It's just kind of implied in that if you do pee in the fountain, you won't be hanging around the mall for very long.
	You don't have to sign a contract when you go into a store saying, I will not shoplift.
	It's just kind of implied.
	It's kind of implied.
	And these implied contracts are everywhere.
	And having a sensitivity and understanding of those implied contracts simply means that people can send you out and you're not going to end up headbutting some pregnant woman, right?
	Right.
	But yeah, try going through a day just, you know, and you Have some spare cycles.
	Just look at the number of implied contracts that are in there, right?
	I mean, you don't have to give your money up front to the cab driver.
	It's kind of an implied contract.
	I'm going to pay when I leave.
	That's why you don't have to pay for your meal beforehand.
	It's an implied contract.
	Implied contracts are...
	It's a whole study of economics that deals with this stuff that's, to me, at least quite interesting.
	But, you know, maybe I'm just kind of OCD that way.
	I just...
	The number of implied contracts are...
	I mean, sex is an implied contract, right?
	Right?
	Don't cry rape tomorrow, honey, right?
	Don't suddenly become a rapist during the sex act, right?
	I mean, there's an implied contract and a trust relationship there that sadly has kind of decayed over the last 50 or 60 years to the point now where, I don't know, might as well start screwing a pencil sharpener for safety sometimes.
	It seems like on campuses in particular with the political correctness, feminist hysteria about rape and all that.
	But yeah, there are implied contracts everywhere and they're very, very Important as to how society runs.
	Is it manipulative to conform to them?
	I don't see how.
	So yeah, initiative lying, not good.
	And you know this as a salesman.
	I assume your products have returns, right?
	So if you, through the charm of your silver tongue, can convince a whole bunch of people to buy something, and then they just end up bringing it back, then you're not doing a good job.
	In fact, you're costing your company money.
	Because they have to book the sale, and then they have to unbook the sale.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	So it's time-consuming.
	If you sell something that gets returned, you'll get fired, right, if your return rates are too high.
	Because, you know, the important thing is not to get people to buy something.
	The important thing is to get people to buy it and keep it.
	The buying thing, you know?
	Yeah.
	Not that, because you can take it back, right?
	And...
	So, if you manipulate people into doing something that they don't want, then all they'll do is they will just undo it.
	And you then will have not done your job, which is not to get them to buy something, but to get them to keep it, right?
	So, you can't be too manipulative.
	If you're too manipulative, you're a bad salesman.
	Because you're convincing people to do something that they don't want to do, which means they'll just probably undo it later.
	And that's actually bad.
	They have to actually want to keep what you sell them, and manipulation can't make them do that, right?
	You can manipulate someone into buying something, but not into keeping it.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, definitely.
	Yeah, that totally helps.
	Yeah, that's great.
	All right.
	Anything else?
	Yeah, do you mind if I just plug my YouTube channel?
	I mean, I really appreciate the time and everything that you do.
	I mean, I've been listening to you for, like I said, like three years, and I've been donating for about a year.
	And was this a useful conversation?
	You know, I ask this of everyone, but, you know, donors too.
	It's nice that a few people would be happy as well.
	Yeah, no, it was.
	It definitely was.
	Definitely worth the wait.
	It was like two months away, and I was like, oh, shoot, it's coming.
	And I'm sorry.
	Listen, we're taking steps.
	To try and solve that, because, you know, I mean, it's not like this is an emergency room, but two months is a bit long, right?
	So we're working to try and solve that, put an extra show together and stuff like that.
	But anyway.
	No, it's cool.
	I mean, like when Mike was calling me over Skype, I was like, oh my gosh, that's crazy.
	I was jumping around and everything.
	Oh, I'm glad.
	Yeah.
	But yeah, like you've helped me so much in just my entire experience.
	With all the principles and whatnot, since I'm a child of an unparent, it's really difficult.
	I'm just trying to hold on to something.
	It's really cool that I came across you in your show.
	I appreciate that.
	If you don't mind, maybe I could just talk about my YouTube channel.
	Yeah, if you want to plug your YouTube channel, I got no problem with that.
	Yeah, sweet.
	Okay.
	So, it's funny because I know that she likes to do a lot of metaphors involving breakdancing and stuff, but I actually have a YouTube channel involved as a host, as a tutorial guy for breaking.
	Yeah, everybody who wants to check out or learn how to breakdance, then just go ahead and type in Jolt TV, J-O-L-T space TV, and you'll find it all there.
	So, yeah.
	All right.
	Well, I leave that to younger people with more bendy knees, but I appreciate that, and, you know, it's a healthy thing to do.
	And, you know, it beats knife fighting.
	I'm just kidding.
	I don't know if that's urban myth.
	But, yeah, thanks for the call, man.
	You're welcome back anytime.
	It was a great pleasure.
	Thanks so much, Jeff.
	Take care.
	All right.
	Alright, well up next we have Quentin.
	Quentin wrote in and said, What do you think about creating a movement to form a free society completely outside of any existing government?
	How viable is it to bring people together from all around the world online and then focus that energy into actually creating a free society with land purchased or somehow obtained contractually from an existing country?
	What would you see as the major challenges?
	That's from Quentin.
	Oh, hey Quentin, how you doing?
	I am doing very well.
	Great to talk to you.
	Great to chat with you, too.
	Actually, I had a character in my longest novel, a 350,000-page opus about families in Europe between the First and Second World War.
	I had a character named Quentin, so I'm partial to the name.
	So, nice to chat with you.
	Great.
	Yes, likewise.
	All right.
	Now, you know that this has been tried, or at least it's been approached.
	I mean, there's three, I guess four, separate...
	Occasions or approaches that I've heard of.
	Number one, we had the guy on years ago, Seasteading.
	They're going to create this floating platform offshore with its own laws and its own rules.
	I think a year or two ago, some guys tried it in Honduras.
	I don't think it got too far.
	There's Liberland or something like that.
	There's a place somewhere in Europe where there's supposed to be this unowned patch of land that they're trying to set up their own thing on.
	And there's a couple other places where people have tried to create these kinds of communities, and they tend to fall into one of two camps.
	One is like, okay, well, we respect the laws of the existing country, but we are going to try and be more...
	We're just bringing communities of like-minded people so that you don't have to pretend to cheer when a politician walks on screen.
	And then there's other ones that say, well, we're trying to get this lease going where we're going to be able to set up our own laws, be independent of the parent company's laws or country's laws, sorry.
	And as far as I know, none of them have been able to function as yet.
	Oh, there's one more.
	There's a...
	I guess a sort of semi-anarchic community in Holland?
	I think it has something to do with Christ something or other.
	Anyway, sorry about this.
	It's terrible.
	Terrible.
	I should research it.
	But anyway, so those are the approaches that I've seen.
	But, oh, there was another one.
	It was an abandoned oil rig or something in the English Channel or the North Sea or whatever it was.
	So there have been a bunch of trials of it.
	But none of them have been successful.
	And I'm not sure that they could be.
	I'm not sure they could be.
	You know, with the first caller we talked about, dysfunctional relationships don't like being around functional relationships.
	So this is the very first caller talking about his son and two daughters and the older kids and family nearby.
	And, you know, can you imagine a very successful relationship Anarchic, voluntaristic, free market society.
	Hugely successful.
	You know, like the income is growing 25% a year.
	There's no war.
	There's no crime.
	The kids are all raised peacefully and it's a glorious sunlit slice of the future shining down into a benighted and darkening world.
	I mean, can you imagine what governments would do?
	Yeah, no, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	The smart people would all want to go.
	So...
	Like even now, like I was just reading about 10,000 French billionaires have fled Paris because of rising tensions with minorities and so on.
	Soon not to be minorities.
	But I, you know...
	I think it would be, you know, I think it'd be really challenging.
	Now, unless they were able to invent some sort of defensive weapon that would make them untouchable, and I don't know anything about that.
	Obviously, it's just a possibility.
	But I think it would be a significant challenge, not just to build, but to maintain.
	Right.
	And when you say maintain, you're saying as far as keeping somebody from trying to subvert it or somehow take it over, that type of thing?
	Yeah.
	And I know this is a standard criticism of a free market society, like a voluntarist or anarchic society.
	And I know I've argued against it before, wherein I've said, well, what would they take over?
	You don't have the tax base to take over and so on.
	So a big area, and I don't mean huge, but more than just a couple of square miles, Well, that could be interesting.
	And, you know, we're such, and I remember being quite excited about the Honduras thing, like, I'm going down, I'm going to see, you know, like, I mean, we're such an experiment to get off the ground, you know, I try to be second person off the boat.
	But I think manifestations of philosophical principles prior to the spread of those philosophical principles are too freaky.
	For a long time, I wanted to be a writer, like a fiction.
	I wrote poetry.
	I wrote like 30 plays.
	I've written like, I don't know, half a dozen or more novels.
	And that was my gig.
	That's what I did as I wrote fiction.
	I was very good at it.
	But every time I tried to sell my fiction, I mean, people said, like, I got one Ph.D., Literary reviewer read one of my books, The God of Atheists, actually available on the website.
	He read this book and he said, finally, somebody has produced the great Canadian novel.
	This is the greatest moral novel, modern moral novel I've ever read.
	And he was just completely, and I thought, whoa, that's fantastic.
	That's like, that's more than an endorsement.
	I mean, that's a jetpack.
	And I was like, I was at work, right?
	And I was like, every time the phone rang, I'm like, hey, I'm just about to quit.
	Hello.
	Hey, I'm just about to quit.
	Hello, right?
	And I got nothing but like the most amazing feedback.
	On my work, and nobody would touch it.
	You know, I didn't understand it at the time.
	I was but young in my salad days, green in the world.
	And that's because the philosophical principles that were embedded in the novels, people got the quality of the writing and the characterization and the analogies and the metaphors.
	You know, people are like, hey, Steph, how do you come up with such amazing metaphors?
	It's like, well, you try writing poetry and plays and novels.
	For 20 years before you become a public figure, yeah, you'll be pretty good at it too.
	How do you run so far?
	Well, I've been training for 20 years.
	Oh, wow, that makes sense, right?
	This doesn't come out of nowhere.
	And I couldn't get my art out into the world because the principles embedded in the art were not even conscious or available or accepted or had even been heard of by the general population.
	And so everyone got the quality of it, but it was unsellable.
	And I get that.
	Now, the philosophy show is a tad more sellable.
	And you have to do philosophy before you do the art.
	I mean, you have to have the Communist Manifesto, and you have to have Das Kapital.
	Before you have Bertolt Brecht writing his Mother Courage and her children and Galileo and all the socialist-y stuff, right?
	You have to have the philosophy, the principles have to be somehow put out into the general population and then the arts can sort of ride behind the principles that are out there.
	And I think that a free society, we've got a long way to go before people really get things like UPB, critical thinking, logic, reason, evidence, the subjugation of opinion to facts.
	I mean, this is a battle.
	I've been doing all this work on Aristotle lately.
	This is a battle that started thousands of years ago, and it's still not one.
	Despite the incredible examples of medicine and science and the free market and all the areas in which human beings subjugate mere opinion to actual facts is exactly where society flourishes, expands and grows.
	Right?
	I believe this particular plant cures this particular illness.
	Okay, let's put that to a double-blind experiment and find out if that's true.
	Hey, let's find out if these opinions are true.
	That's the basis of philosophy.
	And we still haven't won that basic battle between Aristotle and Plato, subjectivism versus empiricism.
	Just having a feeling versus testing it in the real world and having actual facts.
	So I think we're a ways away.
	We're a ways away.
	I've used this example before.
	I put out lots of arguments about how spanking violates the non-aggression principle.
	And there are communities in this world who claim to really value the non-aggression principle Hey, here's a way you can act on it and here's all the science that shows why you should and here's how this will make the world a better place and have you actually achieve what you want.
	No!
	We don't want to hear it.
	Okay, well, that's fine, but that just means, not fine, but it just means that it's even the values that people claim to love so much when they're offered the chance to enact them in their own lives for the betterment of the world, they'll often reject it.
	Not everyone, but a lot of people will reject it.
	I can't believe that crazy guy is suggesting that we apply the non-aggression principle in the best possible way in our own lives where we can do it.
	More talk about fiat currency will save us.
	And don't get me wrong, just had Gied on.
	Love talking about fiat currency, but...
	So, you know, I think we have to do a lot more work to spread philosophy.
	And I say this now, you know, what are we, close to 90 million views on YouTube and Probably an equivalent number of downloads or whatever.
	So, you know, we're 180 million or whatever.
	That's a big injection of philosophy into the world.
	That's a big injection of philosophy into the world.
	And I am sort of racing the tsunami of the effects of postmodernism and its capacity to swallow up societies like a white whale and Captain Ahab's leg.
	But...
	I think we've got a ways to go before we can build, in reality, what people don't even understand in theory as yet.
	It's like you go into Pygmies saying, let's build a suspension bridge.
	And they're like, and they shoot you with a blow dart.
	It's like, I think you're going to get your bridge built.
	Right.
	Yeah, I definitely understand what you're saying, and I feel the same way in a lot of ways.
	At the same time, do you think then your energy is spent better not trying to do something like that or to try more in a philosophical way?
	No, energy of people who want to just better the world.
	My energy?
	Oh, I don't know.
	I mean, this is just my thoughts.
	Coincidentally, my thoughts happen to align with what I happen to be best at, which is sort of theoretical explanations and communicating to people about philosophy.
	Mm-hmm.
	But, you know, I would certainly say to someone, look, I mean, if this is what truly drives you and truly motivates you, give it a try.
	You know, stay within the law, for heaven's sakes.
	You can't do much in prison other than get converted to radical Islam.
	But I would say, as I've said before to people, look, I can make a case as to why I don't think it's going to be particularly productive to take some particular approach.
	And people are either going to listen to that argument and accept it, or they're not.
	Like either the argument is faulty, in which case hopefully people will tell me how to correct it, or the argument is not faulty, but people just, they want to do their own thing.
	So if you wake up every morning and you absolutely dream of building a floating island of freedom, and I make the case and you're like, that guy, you know, he's full of it.
	And it might be.
	This is about predicting the future, which, you know, there's no certainty in.
	And so, if this is what people want to do, you know, I'm not a big one for saying, no!
	I mean, what would that even mean?
	Just make a case for things that people do whatever the hell they want, right?
	And so, if this is what drives you, if this is what motivates you, you want to create the floating island of future freedoms, and you reject my arguments, or you reject...
	I mean, hopefully you'll study what didn't work before, and you will correct For whatever mistakes people made before.
	I mean, that's important.
	Why didn't it work out the last 50 times it's been tried in various ideologies and so on?
	So you'll study those and you'll learn to do it better or smarter or more sustainably or whatever.
	But no, I made the case, and I've said this before, here's my case against spending huge amounts of time and energy trying to get unelectable people elected.
	Unelectable people.
	Kind of being the key word there.
	But, you know, people say, well, what about Gary Johnson?
	It's like, I think Gary Johnson's a great guy.
	You know, obviously he's closer to what I think of as a great society than just about anybody else who's currently kicking around.
	But he's not going to be elected president.
	Like, I'm sorry, he's not going to get anywhere close.
	The Libertarian Party has reliably kicked around between 1 and 1.5% of American votes.
	For over 40 years.
	That's a lot of time.
	Pushing 1971 to 20, 45 years, right?
	It has been unable to budge past a percent percentage and a half with one or two minor exceptions that quickly went back lower and it's been even lower.
	So if people have had a half century To try and achieve a goal and they've not been able to get beyond a percent, percent and a half, sorry, you know, I mean, I guess it must be fun to do, but it's not going to change anything.
	I mean, I remember saying this to a friend of mine.
	I went to my first libertarian conference when I was 17, 32 years ago.
	Oh my God!
	I have twice become legal to drive since then, but, um, I went to my first libertarian conference and I was saying, you know, it doesn't seem to be interesting stuff.
	I don't see how this is going to take root.
	And he's like, no, no, there are a few libertarian congresspeople from Alaska.
	And I'm like, okay, maybe this is the thin edge of the wedge.
	And I kind of kept my eye on it and whatever, right?
	But my feeling is, look, if all you ever want to do is political action...
	Why does it matter what anyone else says?
	If that's all you care, if it's all you want to do, then go do it.
	But go do it 150%.
	Don't just dabble.
	Go do it 150%.
	And that way you'll either win or you'll burn out.
	Either way, it's going to release you from the striving.
	You'll either have the achievement or you'll just get exhausted and burnt out by not achieving things.
	I mean, if I was still struggling to get 150 views on a video after 10 years, I wouldn't have lasted 10 years, of course, given up long ago, because you don't head into the tundra to bag an elephant, right?
	So...
	When I say, well, what should people be working on?
	I make the case, based on reason and evidence, that I think it's about the parenting, and I think that there's some interesting stuff going on in the political process, some unguessed stuff going on in the political process, both on the left and the right at the moment.
	And, you know, there are some fairly significant statistical arguments that seem to bear out that the center-left in Europe is finally dying.
	I guess probably it's a bit more accurate to say that it is...
	It has committed suicide with African darts.
	I don't know.
	But yeah, weighted share of the votes.
	1970 to 2015, I mean, they're starting to decline.
	I mean, significantly, right?
	They were like between...
	If we take 1970s, 100, they've, you know, in the 80s and they went up to like 110 and so on.
	Now they're cooking down around 80.
	So they really are starting to decline, right?
	And if people want to pursue political action, then I've made the case as to what I think should happen.
	And if they want to do it, then they should do it.
	Oh, hang on.
	Mike's giving me some facts.
	Oh no!
	Facts!
	I was actually too high, too optimistic.
	Okay, so 1972, I guess, was when the Libertarian Party ran their first presidential candidate.
	And statistically insignificant, like his mom and his gardener voted for him.
	1976, 0.2%.
	Clark, that's the one I was thinking of, 1.1%.
	1984, they got 0.3%.
	1988, Ron Paul, 0.5%.
	1992, 0.3%.
	1996, 2000, both Harry Brown, 0.5, 0.4%.
	Badnarek, who I did a debate with some years back, 0.3%.
	And Barr in 2008 got 0.4%.
	0.4%.
	Millions and millions of dollars, untold amounts of person hours.
	Well, Rand Paul.
	I mean, Rand Paul.
	People say, what do you think of Rand Paul?
	It's like, do you want to read the script of the movie that's never going to get made?
	No, I'm busy.
	I wish it were different.
	God, wouldn't it be great if political action...
	Wouldn't it be great if the Libertarian Party was now cooking at 20 or 30% and was a substantial force in American politics?
	Man, that'd be great.
	Then I wouldn't have to talk about all this peaceful parenting stuff that freaks people the hell out.
	I mean, God, it would be great if political action could solve it.
	It'd be great if...
	We could all go live in Liberland or on the seasteading or like if all that stuff worked or if the Honduras thing had worked I mean that'd be great.
	Like I hate to say like people that no one would be happier than me I'm sure there'd be tons of people happier than me but not many because that would be great.
	I mean it's not like I it's not like I do the family peaceful parenting childhood raising stuff spanking stuff because I like it when people really get bothered by me.
	It's not like hey People really like me.
	I wonder what I could do today to fix that and solve that problem of just being liked.
	And I wouldn't...
	I wouldn't...
	I wouldn't be doing it if there was an option.
	You know?
	I mean, people...
	Doctors don't wake up and say, hey, I saw someone on his leg off today.
	It was the only thing to save the life.
	Even though this is different.
	So...
	And so the last thing I wanted to mention too is that even...
	I mean, even...
	Even Rand Paul...
	I mean...
	Sold out to Black Lives Matter, became pretty much a social justice warrior, and man oh man.
	And you know, I've gone into this in more detail, so I'll shut up here.
	People can check out this...
	Show that we did a year or two ago called The Final American Revolution, Adam Kokesh Debates, Stefan Molyneux.
	And, you know, I don't have some deep-seated compulsion to be disliked by people who used to like me.
	I mean, it's not...
	I don't...
	It doesn't hugely bother me because, you know, the facts are the facts.
	And if people dislike you for the facts, then, you know, people are saying, oh, you know, I took your advice and I'm talking about philosophy with my friends.
	My friends don't like me anymore.
	It's like, well, then...
	You know, everyone knows the answer to that is they weren't your damn friends.
	And so if people ended up not liking me for rational and empirical arguments that I put forward about actionable virtues they can do in their own lives, if they dislike me for that, then they obviously had nothing to do with virtue to begin with.
	And it's just a bunch of posturing.
	And, you know, I can't mourn the loss of false friends.
	In fact, that saves a lot of time in this life.
	But yeah, it's not like I wake up saying, wow, I'm really popular in these circles.
	What can I do to really annoy them?
	It's like, no, I... I've got to follow the facts and you have to be relentlessly empirical when it comes to this.
	So when I was saying percent, percent and a half, I was thinking about that one anomaly in 1980, 1.1%.
	But it's, yeah, I mean, to put it in perspective, Ron Paul in 1988 got more votes as a percentage of the population than Barr in 2008.
	That's 20 years.
	20 years they went down.
	Sorry, that's not about to turn around.
	I may not be a mathematical genius, but I can figure out whether a line is going up or down.
	I'm sorry, my friend.
	Thank you for the rant space, but go ahead.
	So, when America was founded, right, would you consider that kind of a...
	I mean, it wasn't obviously like a majority movement.
	It was few people, and it was kind of one of those rare exceptions in history where...
	It kind of panned out for them.
	I mean, right?
	You know, I don't know.
	That's not a very philosophical statement.
	It was a rare moment in history where things panned out.
	I mean, that doesn't really explain anything.
	But no, it was a new world with a distant...
	I mean, the closest thing would be Mars now, right?
	I mean, if Mars were habitable and lush and all that, like Edgar Rice Burris imagined or whatever, right?
	I mean, if Mars were...
	And it took months to go back and forth, and then you'd be far enough away from centralized and coercive power that you could maybe declare independence from Earth or something like that.
	But, of course, Mars is pretty much a bare wasteland and all that.
	But, yeah, sorry, they were far enough away, and they also had a very strong ideology.
	This was The end of the Enlightenment or the height of some of the effects of Enlightenment thinking and rationalism and post-Renaissance and the rights of man.
	This was a very heady time and there were some very, very smart people who were just far enough away from centralized coercive power to be able to make a go of it and they still completely screwed it up.
	I mean, they still created the government, and that government embodied slavery, and then 80 years later, there was a civil war, or a little bit more than, no, 80 years later or so, there was a civil war, and then there was a central bank, and then there's massive imperialism, right?
	So it was a, you know, again, was America a bad thing to have?
	Good Lord, no.
	But it was very instructive and I don't know that that's going to happen very easily again.
	Sorry, you were saying something and I was just saying so America, though, was was an upgrade for society as a whole.
	Right.
	I mean, yeah, of course.
	Yes.
	Of course, okay.
	And then, so I would say, though, so they, of course, they had new land, and they were doing that type of thing, but I mean, for their time, that was probably the right way to go about advancing civilization, and maybe in this time, the right way isn't necessarily finding new land, because there really isn't any, but...
	Purchasing land or finding another way to get land kind of based off how we currently are living, you know, do it in a way that would kind of like how they did in their way when they were doing America, right?
	Well, I mean, the more modern example is to look at Israel, which was a...
	Right?
	I mean, that was more in 1949 or 1948.
	That was a created state.
	And, you know, according to Alan Dershowitz, that had been going on for generations, the attempt to sort of carve out in the desert the state of Israel.
	And, you know, what happened?
	Well, they created a government, they created a country, and were immediately attacked by all the surrounding neighbors and had to fight for their life.
	But that, of course, also had to do with the Jewish and Muslim conflicts that have been going on for 1400 years.
	It's not the same if you have a free society, but if you have a free society, a truly free society, then that is going to immediately negatively impact governments.
	Because as soon as it's recognized that you're somewhat stable, that you have a good banking system, that you have a good financial system, that you have peace, that you have low crime, that you have massive, you know, I mean, a truly free society, like 20-25% Economic growth.
	Like, poverty would be solved in, like, five to ten years.
	All but the most, like, I want to be a monk or I'm whatever, right?
	And so, if you can imagine how many of the world's resources would flow to an environment like that, well, how would governments feel, like, when their prized tax cattle are stampeding out of the enclosure?
	Well, they're going to...
	Right.
	So my thought on that is, can't you, before you really even make a move, you kind of have that understood, and you have people online who kind of know that, and you can also take measures against it.
	Maybe you don't just have one free society.
	Maybe you have five at a time, all a little bit differently.
	It gets harder to get all of them, doesn't it?
	I don't know.
	I mean, you're talking about the simultaneous creation and sustaining of five Free societies.
	Listen, listen, listen, man.
	There's massive splintering and fragmenting even within the libertarian movement.
	And again, I know it's a free society, but how are you going to even get enough people with enough stable personality structures and enough belief systems that are stable and compatible to even work together for such a giant project?
	Have you ever tried doing stuff with people?
	God!
	I mean, you know, present company accepted, of course, right?
	But I mean, trying to do stuff with people, it's like rolling explosive dice, you know?
	Hey, maybe I'll get two sixes or maybe I'll just lose a finger and half an eyebrow.
	So trying to get stuff done with people is a real challenge.
	Absolutely.
	I agree.
	But I mean, that is what large businesses do.
	And if you were able to treat a city like a large business, I mean, that's kind of what you do.
	You deal with people and there's headaches, there's problems, there's all that, but you still move it forward, right?
	Yes, but large businesses are not ideological insofar as they're simply in the pursuit of profit.
	Couldn't a free society be in the pursuit of profit, though?
	I mean, you're competing against another city.
	All you have to do is undercut them, which is going to be pretty easy to do because, I mean, cities are obviously run grossly inefficiently.
	So you just need to out-compete them, which is going to be pretty easy to do, and you have a profit incentive to create a free society city, right?
	It doesn't have to be completely free.
	Maybe to start out you charge for property or you do something like that, but it still is cheaper than the alternatives.
	Listen, listen, but I get all of that.
	Now, first of all, I don't know.
	I mean, I hate to ask this question because it sounds kind of dickish, and maybe it is.
	But, I mean, do you have experience managing, creating things?
	I do.
	I've been in business for about 10, 15 years.
	My whole life I've been an entrepreneur.
	Fantastic.
	Okay, that's great.
	So, you know the challenges.
	Absolutely.
	Even if you look at the state of Israel and say, well, you know, it's a Jewish creation.
	Judaism isn't one thing.
	Judaism is like six million infighting things, right?
	Yeah.
	Orthodox Jews, Hasidic Jews, Ashkenazi Jews, Sephanic Jews.
	And most of the people there aren't Jews by bloodline, but by conversion.
	And the whole Judaism and the whole Jewish thing in itself is a huge topic, but yeah.
	But yeah, so there's some significant conflicts, even in an ideology like that.
	Sure.
	Are you going to get...
	Listen, I mean, you get a free society.
	Let's say you get a free society.
	Mm-hmm.
	And you populate it, and half the population is aggressive towards their children.
	It won't last.
	It won't last.
	So you have to, I mean, who are you going to populate it with?
	Because if you're yelling at and hitting your children, those children are going to grow up traumatized, much more prone to criminality, much more prone to looking for a hierarchical structure than replicating a state and all of that.
	I don't think a free society would have to be perfect.
	I think it would just have to be better than what we have now.
	Yeah, maybe some people would hit, maybe there'd be problems like that, but it would still be better than what we have now, right?
	So I don't see how it could be worse than what we have with cities.
	No, it could be worse.
	It could be worse, insofar as you would get a huge amount of wealth and expertise and technology created in that free society, and if then you have traumatized, power-hungry, climb-up-the-political-labor dopamine addicts, With all of that Weaponry and all of that money and all of those resources.
	That's the argument about, yeah, I mean, I'm glad that America's around, but there's 25 million people killed by U.S. foreign policy since the Second World War who aren't.
	And one of the reasons America is so powerful is it was relatively free, which gave it a huge amount of capital, and then the government took over that capital.
	America could afford such a huge government and a military-industrial complex, so the freedom at home turned into a tyranny overseas in many ways.
	And, you know, American foreign policy, including, of course, foundationally, destabilization in Syria, destabilization in Libya, invasions of Iraq, the arming of both sides of these Islamic wars, and all of that.
	This is, like, literally US foreign policy might be the fucking end of Europe.
	Like, it might be the entire destruction of European civilization.
	And so, it can get worse.
	So you would see it as...
	Basically, when you have that kind of prosperity, if you don't have the social environment in somewhat of a...
	I don't know, somewhat intact, they're going to basically...
	It's going to multiply the problem because they have that much more wealth and it's going to make it that much more problematic?
	Yeah.
	I mean, if you have...
	Huge amounts of resources and very disturbed individuals who have access or control over those resources, those resources are going to be used for destructive ends.
	You know, there's that old saying of P.J. O'Rourke's giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage children.
	Right.
	Yeah, some real truth in that.
	And that's because this is all short-term thinking addictive behavior.
	Again, Maybe, you know, this is, again, is it the never say never?
	Like, I don't think I've ever said, it's praxeologically or axiomatically impossible for anything other than peaceful parenting to work.
	I'm never, because, man, I'm just, all I do is make the case against and see what statements people can make about it.
	So, you know, if this is what you want to pursue, and, you know, listen to the case, and, you know, maybe you'll Accept it and maybe you won't.
	And if you won't, then all I'm suggesting is just find a way to do it.
	Get the people involved and get it going and get the land and sign the contracts with the governments and whatever you need to do.
	And maybe I'll be there to help cut a ribbon or two because I certainly would be excited to see it.
	It's certainly not the best use of my talents and abilities in this area because I think it's hard to imagine...
	Me doing better than 180 million exposures.
	But that's the thing.
	That's what's good, though, is, I mean, you obviously, what you are doing is what you're meant to be doing right now.
	You're great at it.
	And, you know, I feel that I would probably be better doing something more along these lines.
	So, yeah, I mean, it makes sense.
	So, yeah, listen, I'm not going to tell you no.
	But just be, well, you know, you're an entrepreneur.
	I don't need to tell you to study past failures and all of that.
	But, yeah, just be prepared to pivot if it doesn't work.
	Just remember to pull up, you know.
	I remember once when I was working up north to take a ski plane in, a plane that can land on the frozen lakes up north when I was doing my gold panning and prospecting and all that.
	And we were coming in for a landing and the pilot, I mean, he came in pretty fast and decelerating on a frozen lake is not the easiest thing in the world, right?
	And I was like, man, I was telling the guy, I said, these trees look pretty close and he I don't know.
	And he looked over and he says, yeah, maybe you're right.
	And he just pulls up and like we barely cleared the treetops.
	And I'm like, what do you do when someone isn't next to you telling you you're not going to make it?
	Do you just like go straight into the trees?
	Like, this is why you always have to have a passenger?
	How are you going to get back to the airport we came from?
	And so just, you know, remember, have someone around who's going to say, you know, pull up, man.
	It's not going to work.
	Right, right.
	Will you keep us posted if you get moving on this?
	No, absolutely.
	I don't know how much into detail you'd like me to go, but I'm taking it pretty seriously.
	I've written a book about it.
	I have a website for it.
	I'm just trying to gain momentum online first and just feeling it out like you would with any business.
	You just kind of feel it out.
	If there's a market, do you want us to reference your That would be fantastic.
	Yeah, go for it.
	The website is called crowdfreedom.com and the book is 100% free and you can read it online, crowdfreedom.com slash book.
	Oh, I thought the title of the book was 100% free.
	Okay, got it.
	Go ahead.
	Yeah, so yeah.
	All right.
	Well, thanks very much.
	And I certainly wish you the best.
	And as you move forward, if you want us to help you out with any kind of shake the trees and see what publicity we can get, I am happy to help.
	We're happy to help.
	So thanks very much.
	Fantastic.
	I really appreciate that, Steph.
	And I just wanted to say I really appreciate your show.
	I think you guys have the best show in the world.
	I listen to it every day at work.
	So you guys are doing a great service.
	So I just want you to know that.
	Well, thank you.
	Thank you very much.
	And it's, you know, very encouraging to hear somebody with entrepreneurial experience taking on these challenges.
	That's great.
	That's great to hear.
	I'm very encouraged.
	Well, I'm glad to hear that as well because I hear a lot of people who talk about things like this and I don't think they, I don't know, I just don't think they fully get it.
	So, yeah, thank you.
	Appreciate that.
	All right.
	Yeah, I think not only is this the best show in the world, I think it's the best show that ever will be in the world, because all the shows that come after this will have this show, having broken the ice.
	So that's my particular...
	And whether that's true or not, I'm telling people that's my goal.
	I mean, I aim to create the best conversations, the best...
	Most in-depth explanations, the best experts, the most important stuff that I could find.
	It's been great to see you grow because, I mean, you started it out, you were kind of testing the waters, and I've seen you just kind of start to expand it as more and more interest is in there, and it's just fantastic to see it.
	I love your donation model.
	I love the way you're doing it.
	It's just you're doing it the free market way, and you're just killing it.
	It's awesome.
	Well, thank you, and thank you, of course, for your support in what we do as well, and hopefully we can reciprocate.
	All right.
	Well, thank you everyone so much for a most, most enjoyable show.
	The highs, the lows, the in-betweeners.
	Always excited to chat with people.
	And I always appreciate people's openness.
	despite themselves for a listener or two over the years.
	But it is a great honor and a privilege to have people open hearts and minds in this forum.
	And I never take it for granted.
	And every time that we have one of these call-in shows, I am jumping up and down with excitement to get the conversation going.
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