3197 Fancy Words For Being An A$$h0l3 - Call In Show - February 5th, 2016
Question 1: [1:10] – “Now I'm engaged to be married and my fiancée and I would like to come on and talk about our relationship. More specifically, our question would be: How does a couple know they're right for each other? How do people know if they’ve overcome the issues in their past? And finally, how do partners stay together and avoid divorce?”Question 2: [1:38:33] – “In Universally Preferable Behaviour, you take the time to show that rape is a moral evil. If raping is good, why must not raping be evil? Why can't both parties rape each other at the same time?”Question 3: [2:11:00] – “If we were to develop the technology to keep people alive and youthful for eternity, would it be moral to do so? On one hand, killing or refraining from saving someone who you know you can save is immoral, so if the technology is there we have to keep people alive - at least until they want to die themselves. On the other hand, keeping more of the same people alive would also mean that we would have to hold back on reproduction to not get overpopulated, and so if we don't get new individuals with new brains into this world, won't it have repercussions?”
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And we had three, well, four callers, but three sets of calls.
The first was a couple who's going to get married late spring, early summer, and wanted to know whether it was going to work or not for them.
So, yeah, if you're going to get married, you pretty much want to listen to this one.
The second caller had questions, lots of questions, maybe even an unsettling number of questions about rape and ethics.
And the third caller just wondered if we live forever and never get sick, you know, future technology in the works, whether or not we might not end up crowding the planet out a tiny, tiny little bit.
I'm afraid I kind of took this question and kind of ran with it, hopefully not off a cliff.
You be the judge and let us know.
All right, let's roll.
All right.
Well, up first, we have Bobby and Jackie.
They wrote in and said, from Bobby's point of view, now I'm engaged to be married to my fiancee, Jackie, and I would like to come on and talk about our relationship.
More specifically, our question would be, how does a couple know they're right for each other?
How do they know that they have overcome the issues in their past?
And finally, how do they stay together and avoid divorce?
That's from Bobby and Jackie.
Hi, guys.
How are you doing?
Good.
How are you?
Good.
Well, thank you.
Well, thank you.
And how long have you guys been an item?
Almost two years.
And when did you decide to get married?
October.
Yeah, October.
2015.
All right.
Well, congratulations.
Thank you.
We hope.
We hope.
And young, middle-aged?
You sound young, right?
28.
28, yeah.
28.
All right.
And prior relationships?
What's our count?
I've had probably four or five prior relationships.
You man whore.
Oh, thank you.
See, that's an insult to a woman, but to a man, it's like, all right.
I would say I had one in college, and then Bobby's my next serious person.
All right.
Okay, good.
And when did you meet and how?
We met on Tinder.
Well, two years ago.
Sorry, but how did you meet?
We met on Tinder.
And we met at a bar.
We...
We had a really great time.
We talked about you first night.
That sounds about right.
Foreplay.
Yes.
Forehead play, right?
Yeah.
It just seemed to go pretty steadily from there, and we've been together ever since.
Now, Tinder, I mean, that's similar.
The only one I'm familiar with is Grindr.
Right, right.
But Tinder is, you swipe if you like the person, right?
Yes.
If you find them attractive?
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
And then what happens?
I just, I don't know the mechanics of it.
He texts or he messaged me on Tinder and asked if he could take me out.
And I said, sure.
And I gave him my number and then we texted each other and we set up a time and then we met.
And was it a pretty instant connection?
Is that right?
Oh yeah, definitely.
Yeah, I think so.
Definitely with our sense of humor, I think.
Right, okay.
Yeah.
What's weird is we both had eHarmony and Match accounts too, but we met on Tinder.
It's kind of funny.
Now, Tinder, again, I'm no expert, but it's not particularly considered a straight-to-marriage app, right?
Oh, definitely not.
No.
Okay, okay.
Got it.
Just checking.
Yeah.
I'm not on the market, so I don't know what the...
How the fruit are handled these days.
And what do you have?
Do you have any concerns in particular about your relationship?
Well, alright.
So the big thing I would say for me is that you did the episode on like marital or sexual partners and how that could affect a female and their chances of staying married.
Yep.
That would probably be one of my biggest things.
And Jackie is...
I don't know how to say it.
She's had a few.
Oh, so when you said serious, you meant...
Okay, I understand.
I didn't tell you the number of sexual partners.
Right.
I was like her second serious boyfriend.
Okay.
Okay.
Number of sexual partners?
18.
18?
Yes.
And you're in your late 20s as well?
Yes, we're both the same age.
And does the 18 count the two more serious relationships?
No.
Okay, so 20.
No.
It does include...
Okay, yeah, it does.
Sorry.
Yes, it does.
Okay.
Now, the shorter relationships that...
I guess the sexual relationships that you had...
What sort of length or duration were they?
There were a couple who were, I guess you would say, guy friends.
And I was friends with them for years.
And so there were a couple of them where we would get together a couple times every other month or so.
And then there was a handful that were, most of these guys I did know, like I knew them from high school.
But then there was a couple that I had met from mutual friends and we just got together and we hung out and then we hooked up.
And were these not men that you wanted to have a more permanent relationship with?
There were a couple that I did.
The ones that I was friends with and we were over a couple of years hanging out.
I wanted something more serious.
It took me too long to realize it wasn't going to happen.
So you wanted more lengthy or serious relationships with these guys, but they didn't?
Yes.
And Steph, I want to let you know this.
So Jackie was in therapy for a couple of years about this and Before we got together, she had been on a couple years' abstinence celibacy, I guess.
So that's kind of what I was thinking.
Because in the show, you said that basically without the absence of self-knowledge, you know that unless you work through these things, nothing's going to change.
Does that kind of make sense?
Right, right.
So, Jackie, is it my understanding then that you didn't have sex for a while, but you were in therapy to sort of figure out some of these issues?
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
Well, good.
Yes.
That's good to hear.
Yeah.
Good to hear.
Did you figure out why you were drawn to this kind of more casual sex?
I explored a lot of different areas, just from my upbringing to my self-esteem.
And how I looked at myself and yes, definitely was able to process and find understanding and gain awareness and things like that in those areas.
And I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you did not have a close relationship with your father?
The dynamic in my family was that my mom was an alcoholic and my dad was very angry growing up.
So I was very scared of him.
But in some twisted way, I was still a daddy's girl and he would, you know, show his love to me as much as he could.
But it was often with, you know, gifts and really fun things to do.
So I don't know if it was a healthy connection, but there was a connection there.
I was mad at my dad for a long time, though, because he was so scary to me and intimidating.
But in therapy, I became angry with my mom and Because I realized the dynamics.
My dad was angry because my mom is an alcoholic and she wasn't participating.
So then I kind of shifted where I was in relation to my parents.
But again, I've kind of worked.
I still am working through that.
Well, listen, man, if you cross the Rubicon to female responsibility, that's some good stuff.
You know, that's impressive.
And I guess kudos to your therapist as well, who I'm sure helped you in that way.
what were you scared of with regards to your dad?
Um, he's, it's like, it's, um, it's kind of tough to describe my dad.
Bobby couldn't figure him out when he would meet him.
He's like, I just don't get your dad.
Because he's very charismatic and It's got a ton of energy.
Wait, what's wrong with that?
Sorry, focus on you.
It's like heckle and jive.
Little things will cause him to abruptly respond or react and that reaction is very angry, it's very loud, it's very abrasive.
I mean like cursing, being rude.
Shaming you, making it all your fault.
And he's got no self-awareness of that, because when you try to tell him, can you please stop yelling?
He's like, I'm not yelling, I'm talking.
And I kind of blame that on him being Italian.
I always say that.
He just was raised in...
Not to put him in that category, but...
So he's good with bricks and he's loud.
I got it.
I got it.
Yeah.
I got it.
I don't want to make it sound like that easier.
He would break stuff.
He would throw stuff.
He would yell when I was growing up.
I always felt like I was on eggshells.
I didn't know for the longest time what he must have been going through with my mom.
There was an insane amount of grief going on with my dad and my mom during the time of my childhood and upbringing.
Nobody was processing.
Nobody was dealing with it.
My mom was dealing with it, but she was drinking.
That was her way of dealing with it.
Yeah, which is okay.
Not dealing with it.
Yeah, right, right.
Yes, not dealing with it.
And to what degree has your father taken responsibility for the disruptions, to put it mildly, that he put you through when you were a kid?
I haven't.
I really had reconciliation on his part, but I have expressed to him where I've come from and what I feel is inappropriate and unacceptable behavior.
I have expressed that to him.
And in therapy, I learned how to assertively address my concerns to him.
There's a shorter answer, right?
What do you mean?
There's a shorter answer to my question.
I asked how much responsibility he's taken for the disruptions he put you through.
So none.
Okay.
No, I appreciate it.
If we could not do the dance...
Yeah, that's fine.
That would be excellent.
You know, my listeners are aging as we speak.
Did you have any relationship to alcohol that you think might have contributed to these sort of multiple sexual encounters?
Yes.
There was usually...
Go on.
Am I allowed to talk now?
Yeah, there was definitely alcohol involved most of the time.
Yeah.
And do you think it was alcohol that impaired your judgment?
In other words, that you wouldn't have slept with these guys if you were sober?
I think if I was sober, I would have been too intimidated.
And I think, yeah, I think the drinking definitely made me feel more comfortable and willing to do it.
I don't think I would have done it if I was sober.
Sorry, too intimidated.
I'm not sure what that means.
I was always coming from a perspective that I wasn't pretty enough or good enough for guys.
And so the drinking would help me.
Feel like that.
When you say pretty enough, I mean, I certainly understand that.
I mean, that sentiment.
But when you say good enough, what do you mean?
I guess if I have to go back there.
I guess looking back, I just didn't really have self-esteem or self-regard.
Didn't really know what I wanted out of life.
And so...
All I knew was in that moment that I wanted to feel like this guy was into me and that would make me feel okay, I guess.
Oh, okay.
So you basically, you got attention by shooting off the vagina fireworks and everyone going, ooh, ah, right?
Oh, not everyone, but the idea that a guy would be interested in you if you were not broadcasting sexual availability was tough, right?
Is that right?
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I just want to make sure I understand what you're talking about.
Right.
No, I understand.
Yes.
Like the guy who's rich and, you know, he has to buy everything for his friends and fears what might happen if he doesn't, right, in terms of will they really like me?
Correct.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
And were the guys drunk too?
Yes.
Right.
Drunk sex sucks anyway.
That's a shame, you know, like, I mean, if you're gonna raise your risk factors for pregnancy, STDs, future relationship happiness, you know, at least with heroin, I hear it's fantastic.
You know, and that's the thing with these, like, drunken hookups and stuff.
It's like, it wasn't even like, well, okay, but at least there was the heroin.
You know, at least there was that high, right?
There were some where there was no alcohol involved.
Right, right.
Right.
Right.
And how long were you celibate before you got into a relationship, or the current relationship with Bob?
I started...
I would say about two years before.
Like when I began therapy, I was kind of already...
Not kind of, but I was...
That was my intention, and then I began therapy, and for two years I remained celibate.
And then I met Bobby shortly after that.
Now, celibate and tinder...
It's not exactly a circle in a square.
I think it's a circle in something else.
I was at brunch with some of my girlfriends.
They were like, get on Tinder.
We know you have the other stuff, but Tinder doesn't have to be about hookups.
It's what you make of it.
I was like, okay.
I was not going on Tinder for the hookups.
I was just kind of doing it for fun.
I think some of the hookup culture is kind of changing because I know several friends that are Like, see your relationships from Tinder now.
So, like I said, I think it might be just because it's easier than getting on Match or any of the other websites.
Right, it's mobile-friendly for sure.
Yeah.
Okay, okay.
Well, it could just be because you have better friends than the majority.
It's possible.
You know, when you go through self-knowledge, you end up with a different circle.
It's easy to mistake that for society as a whole.
Well, maybe I'll be too used to the word friends, co-workers.
So, I mean, that's...
I have several co-workers that met girls through that and are dating them.
Right, right.
Okay, okay.
And so, Jackie, you did some therapy.
Are you currently in?
Yeah, I'm still in therapy.
I have a different therapist, but I had a changed therapist.
And is there anything else?
I know this is like a total flyby.
I'd apologize for that.
Is there anything else that you wanted to add to what we've talked about?
I mean, how are things with your mom these days?
Sorry, I guess that's an important question.
Oh, she's been sober now for eight years.
And my dad has definitely calmed down a lot.
My mom and I have had some pretty good conversations.
Um...
And she's had some pretty good breakthroughs with my dad because I kind of didn't want to get involved.
Yeah, so it's pretty good now.
Definitely improved.
And what's her level of responsibility that she took?
Because, I mean, you know, it's great that she's sober, but she kind of waited until you were an adult, right?
When you probably would have appreciated and found it a lot more helpful than you were a kid.
Yes, absolutely.
Yes, she has taken it.
No, I'm agreeing with you.
Yes, I would have rather her do it earlier on.
Yes, I feel like she's owned up to it.
You feel like she has?
Sorry, I'm not...
Well, in our conversations, when I tell her, you know, it hurt me, this is what it did to me, she's like, okay.
Like, I hear you.
I understand.
Okay.
So to me, that's like...
But no apology, no...
Yeah, she...
I mean, I think she said sorry.
I can't, like, remember or exactly pinpoint what she has.
Oh, come on, Jackie.
You'd remember that.
Like, if somebody apologized for being a drunk throughout their entire childhood, I can't imagine that would slip in the bygones.
I know.
I just, like, I can't think of, like, when she...
Okay, so I don't think she's, like, really looked me in the eyes and said, I'm sorry.
No.
I wouldn't say she's done that.
But I guess I... Take what I can get.
Maybe that's not good, though, either.
Oh, God.
Oh, God.
We are now heading into the fog.
She hasn't, right?
I mean, we can just be clear, right?
I mean, she may have done some other nice things, and I'm glad she stopped drinking.
Yeah.
But she hasn't taken responsibility and inquired as to your feelings and apologized in meaningful ways for being a drunk while you were a kid, right?
Right.
Did she drive you when you were a kid, when she was drunk?
No.
Yeah, I had put that in my survey.
My friends would come over and they'd be like, how do you know your mom's drunk?
She's fine.
She's great.
I'm like, I know the second she's had an alcoholic drink.
And I remember getting ready to go to cheer practice.
And I was like, I don't want to go with my mom.
And my dad made some comment to her as she was walking out the door.
Like, you know, I hope you get pulled over by a cop for her drinking.
And I was like, this is great.
So she drove you while she'd been drinking?
Yeah.
And did she drive other kids while she'd been drinking?
Yes, yeah.
I had a friend over at the time and she was taking us both to practice.
Wow.
And she got into a, not like a collision with another car, but she ran off the road and down to hit a tree for her 40th birthday.
We surprised her and it was her friend and the passenger and my brother and his friend in the backseat.
And I don't know if alcohol was involved, but I know she was drinking that night and she drove, so.
Wow.
Yeah, I mean, I just have a special hate-on for people who drive.
Their own kids, other kids.
It's one thing if you want to go wrap yourself around a telephone pole, but you've got vulnerable kids in the car.
And, of course, the other drivers.
I just want to mention that, so.
You know, I think it's fair to say she's got some stuff to apologize for, right?
Yeah.
Putting you in mortal danger, putting other children in mortal danger.
Right.
I guess she's not gone through that part of quitting drinking where you inquire as to who you've wronged, how you've wronged them, and make amends, right?
Yeah, she wasn't really into the 12-step thing.
She kind of backed out of that quickly, and then she did her own self-help journey.
But then I feel like she just switched addictions.
I think she did.
Because she would just go to the gym all the time.
I can still see some addictive patterns in her.
She's addicted to sugar.
So I just don't think she's broken out of that.
Or she's broken free from that mentality.
Do you think that she knows how much it hurt and harmed you?
No, I don't think she understands the depth of it.
No, not at all.
And so...
Do your emotions have any sort of practical reality for her?
You mean as far as how I relate to her now?
No, just I mean in terms of you have this pain from your childhood, being raised by a woman who was a drunk.
A lot of the times, you have a lot of pain, I mean, a lot of loneliness, a lot of fear, right?
I mean, you don't want her to drive you when she's been drinking, but if you confront drunks or most addicts with the consequences of their actions while they're still in the grip of the addiction, you usually get, you know, the old foot-blasting bomb of rage going off, right?
Right.
So you had a lot of hell in your childhood from this woman's addiction.
She proved she can quit.
She just didn't quit while you were a kid.
Right.
So my question is, to what degree do you think your emotions are real to her?
Do you think that she knows how much it hurts you and has decided not to apologize or doesn't have a clue really how much it's hurt you?
I don't think she has a clue.
Okay, so then from this standpoint, I would argue that your mom being a drunk was probably one of the most significant realities of your childhood and certainly one of the most painful.
And she doesn't have a clue that it hurt you.
To the extent, right.
Yeah, she knows because she's heard me yell at her and be upset with her, but I don't think she has a clue as to how deep down I had to dig to get through stuff and how it's still affecting me today.
Right.
Right.
So she knows how much it's hurt you, but she doesn't know how hungry you are for apologies, restitution, you know, the real reconciliation that comes from all that.
Is that fair to say?
Or she knows that you want that, but doesn't provide?
Yeah, I mean, I'm angry because, or I'm working through that anger because I feel like her very problem set off this dysfunctional pattern in my family and it caused me to become a person or take on Qualities that I didn't like but I did for survival and I'm like trying to get my life back I'm trying to get back my own peace of mind and yeah like I don't think she gets the gravity of that because that's a big
job to do it's not easy it's painful and it's hard but I mean it's way worth it like just the therapy is invaluable Did your parents ever offer to pay for your therapy?
No, but they knew I was going.
They knew you were going, but hey, what would it have to do with them, right?
Yeah.
And I'm sorry for bringing this up, but we do have your adverse childhood experience score, which is 8 out of 10, for which I am incredibly sympathetic and sorry.
So we went through some of the verbal abuse threats, physical abuse.
I don't think we've touched on that.
It was very sporadic.
It's not like I was sitting in my room and, oh, when Dad gets home, I'm going to get a whipping.
It wasn't like that at all.
It was when it was, everything came together and my dad got pissed off enough and someone was there, he would hit them or throw something at someone and it would hit them.
But I do think he, like, I don't know because I was a kid, but I think there was more intent on him harming my mom at times than us kids because he just must have hated her drinking.
But other than that, he wasn't like every single day I'm going to get my belt out or, you know, giving us verbal or physical threats.
Like he wouldn't threaten us or anything.
He would like do it in the moment.
Okay.
Okay.
And how often would that happen?
I mean, I could probably count on one hand, probably not even how many times he's probably hit me or thrown, you know, something at me.
Okay, all right.
And the next one is molestation or sex or rape, the premature sexual experiences, again, to put it as nicely as possible.
And what was the story with that?
Um, my brother decided to, I guess it was a joke that he wanted to play, and he got my cousin, my female cousin, who was about his age,
so the two of them were kind of directing this thing, and they invited my cousin, who was a boy that was my age, and me, into the room, and then just kind of encouraged us to To undress ourselves and then just touch each other's private parts all the while they were laughing and giggling.
I don't remember laughing.
I think I was pretty like, what the hell is happening?
But it's hard for me to remember all the details of that situation.
And how old were you when that happened?
I want to say I was probably six or seven.
And how old was your brother?
He's four years old.
I mean, he's 12 or 13.
Wow.
And did you ever talk about this with your brother after?
No.
It was an isolated incident, too.
I mean, it was a long time that ever happened.
Well, getting your leg blown off is an isolated incident as well, but it does last, right?
Yeah, right.
That one time I strangled a guy?
Totally isolated incident.
Right, okay.
But nothing else, right?
I mean, not that that's not enough, but I'm just curious.
No, nothing else.
Now, no family love or support.
I guess I'm clear on that.
And neglect, not enough food, dirty clothes, no protection or medical treatment?
That was fine.
All of those were the case?
Yeah.
Those were all good.
I didn't have any neglect or anything.
All my needs were met.
Oh, okay.
In that case, yeah.
Physical abuse towards female adults.
This was your father's violence towards your mother, right?
Right.
Okay.
Lived with an alcoholic or drug user, a household member depressed, mentally ill, or suicide attempt?
I felt my mother was depressed in grief, but no suicide attempt or ideation that I knew of.
I think that there's another part of my life that I should probably share with you because it was a pretty big area in my therapy is And it's that I have alopecia, Universalis, and I've had it since I was 18 months old.
So I haven't had hair in my entire life, but now I wear wigs and things like that.
So I just wanted to mention that because not only with my mom's drinking, but coupled with the whole self-esteem and image, that alopecia certainly didn't help with me feeling comfortable with myself.
Okay, so like no eyebrows, like...
Right.
Yeah.
Okay.
And no body hair, obviously, right?
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
And so that was when you were 18 months old.
How did that work in school?
What did you do?
I went bald my whole childhood and young adult life and up until three years ago when I started wearing hair.
In school, though, and in where I grew up, it was okay.
There were a couple times that kids were being little jerks, but for the most part, It was okay.
I didn't get taunted or made fun of.
I had a pretty normal socialization process.
I had my friends.
I was active recreationally and things like that.
I wasn't limited by any means.
But I do think as I got older, into the middle school, high school years, I started to develop the self-esteem and depression.
Well, of course.
I mean, sexual market value is a challenge, right?
Sure.
In that situation, which is less important when you're in the latency period, I would assume.
Right.
And how did your parents handle all of that?
My mom freaked out when it happened.
She didn't know what it was.
She didn't know what I had.
She took me to a doctor.
They were very concerned.
They did their best to get me the treatment I needed.
They found out what it was.
Then they got me involved in National Alopecia Areata Foundation.
So, they wanted me to be connected to the people who knew the most about it, and they made efforts to do that.
But I never...
To me, like, I never had that conversation with them.
I never had, like, hey, do you want to go talk to somebody about this?
It was more like, let's just fill your life with things that'll, you know, make you feel connected with other people who have it, but...
Which was fine then, but then again, when I got older, I needed something more.
And...
By that point, my mom's alcoholism was full blown and my dad was working his ass off and he was angry and so I didn't really have anything like that.
Just out of curiosity, is it genetic?
Is it environmental?
What is the cause?
It's an autoimmune disease and they kind of link it to hay fever.
There's a host of immune deficiency, immune disorders in my family.
So, yes, it's mostly, I think, genetic, but it's not guaranteed that my kids will have it.
It's like any other disease.
There's no guarantee that you have the gene that you pass on or whatnot.
Right, right.
Although, if you have the autoimmune stuff in your family, hey, what do I know?
So that sort of helps square the circle when you said you mentioned something about cheerleading, but I didn't think guys thought I was attractive and that Helps me square that circle a little bit.
That's why I wanted yes to...
Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up.
So, and is there anything else that you wanted to...
How often do you see your parents now, or your brother, or how involved are you with your family?
I live with my parents right now, and then I'll be moving in with Bobby.
I've been back and forth living with them.
I was away at college, moved back in, went to grad school, When I was done grad school and graduated, I moved out for a couple of years and then I moved back in here.
So, I'm pretty close to them physically.
But we're close now.
And I'm pretty close.
What?
What?
Sorry, what?
You and your parents are close now?
Yeah.
No.
No, come on.
You can't say that right after you just told me everything else.
I mean, I don't mind a certain amount of propaganda with family, but you've been through therapy.
You can't just spin off something like, oh yeah, they haven't really apologized for all the hell they put me through as a kid.
They don't even acknowledge the fact that I've suffered.
But we're really close.
So we're close on a different level.
I would definitely say that there's a part of me that can still find a connection.
But I mean, am I really waiting to get out of here?
Yes, I don't.
There's a lot of triggers and there's a lot of things that I have to walk away from.
It still bothers me.
And the reason, Jackie, why I'm not trying to be mean, but if you want to get married to this fine specimen of an FDR listener, right?
If you want to get married to Bobby, then you guys are going to want to be close, right?
Right.
And I don't think if, you know, assuming that he's sensitive to your needs and listens and cares and apologizes when he's done wrong, you don't want to insult the close words you use with Bobby by applying it to the same people who harmed you for decades and haven't even apologized really for it.
That's true.
Okay, you can't have the same definition, right?
Right.
I guess from me to going through therapy, I've found a way to work through a lot of my stuff and I kind of don't I don't want to harp on it with them anymore, but I also shouldn't, you know, not take that into consideration or just kind of like, you know, sweep it under the rug like I need to, I don't know.
Well, no, you were just, you were trying, your parents had told you to tell people that you're close, so you feel that's a good thing to say or whatever, but if you listen back to this conversation, and I hope you do, that will be a jaw-dropping moment for you when you're not in the moment.
Where you give me your history.
Right.
And, you know, raging dad, alcoholic mom.
But we're close.
I mean, who haven't apologized, right?
Who haven't offered to pay for therapy?
Who know you're in therapy?
Do they ask you about therapy?
Do they ask you why you're going?
Do they ask you what's happening?
What you're learning?
My mom does.
She'll ask every once in a while.
She asked more when I was going in the couple, like when I first started.
But she doesn't ask me.
No.
She doesn't ask you now?
No.
Do they ask you personal stuff?
Like what you think and feel?
No.
No.
But you're close.
Right.
Come on.
Come on.
That's what I love about Bobby is we have the how are you feeling talks and I don't realize how much...
Yeah, but he hasn't You know, we'll get to Bobby.
But he hasn't, you know, broken up his propaganda stuff, right?
Not that it's his job or anything, but these could be the kind of gentle reminders of, wait, wait, wait, spraying out some propaganda fog right now.
Because whatever you define as a value is what you're going to live.
You know, the values we have are the houses we move into over time.
And if you're going to define this relationship with your parents as close, that's what it's going to turn into with Bobby.
Because you can't contradict yourself fundamentally that way, right?
You can't say, well, I have this relationship with Bobby where he asks me and cares me about my thoughts and feelings and whatever real-time relationship stuff you guys get into.
And so you can't say, well, I have that with Bobby.
I have pretty much the exact opposite with my parents, but they're both the same.
Right, because then my integrity is coming into call.
Because I'm splitting myself.
I'm okay with my parents that way.
And then with Bobby, I'm like, oh, but this is really what I want.
But then how am I comfortable with my parents?
It's as simple as this, right?
If you say that you love the food that you hate, you'll never get the meal that you want.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I think that codependency is still a big part of me.
I think that's where that comes from, with me wanting to please my parents and please the whole thing.
Well, we all want to please our parents.
Nobody can avoid that.
The genes of not pleasing your parents died out with the Aztecs who sacrificed disobedient children, you know?
I mean, there is no one alive who has no impulse, and I think it's a lifelong impulse, I don't think it ever ends, to please their parents.
And that's why if your parents have dysfunctional aspects that they're not conscious of, we conform to them because we would rather survive with crazy than die in the sane but empty woods bereft of our tribe, right?
So, I mean, that's the challenge.
We will always want to please our parents.
We will always want to please our authority figures.
And that's why you really have to pick and choose who's in your life.
Because, you know, I mean, if my mom was floating around, I mean, I'd want to please her today, too.
Yeah, that's very true.
And avoid it.
Right.
I mean, that's good to know, though, because it's like ingrained.
It's like survival.
It's...
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
And it's funny because in therapy, my therapist would...
So, you know, is that your wise woman, your scared little girl, or your survivor talking?
And so I would, like, process each part of my brain.
And I guess with you, in answering that question, I was just like, survivor, everything's great.
Yeah, if I'm around crazy people, all I can do is survive.
Right.
And I'm living with them right now, so I guess it's kind of, I guess, my go-to.
If you get married, you're going to move from there into Bobby's house.
Is there anything else you wanted to add?
You adding stuff is very productive.
I'm reading and I have been reading for a while.
Bobby would make fun of me if I told you how long it's been taking me.
I'm trying to get through the six pillars of self-esteem.
I like it because I'll read it and then I'll just reflect and let it resonate.
So that's just another thing, too.
And that made me think of what you were saying as the integrity piece.
It's like, if you have your values, integrity is your way of expressing them.
And so there's kind of a discord with me saying that I'm close with my parents.
And then it's like, whoa, really?
Yeah, for me, integrity is simply the refusal.
To have words mean opposite things.
That's all.
Right.
You know, like, so people say government.
I say monopoly with gun because that's what it is, right?
And people say Federal Reserve or central banking.
I say counterfeiting because that's what it is.
Right.
And simply calling things by their proper names.
If you haven't got that, you can't have integrity.
I'm not saying you don't have integrity, but just we all have areas where we get foggy and slippery.
So, Bobby.
Yes.
A-C-E. Yes.
Verbal abuse and sex?
Yeah, my dad.
Well, both my parents.
All the time.
All the time.
Okay.
And what sort of stuff would they say?
I was lazy, I guess, was the big thing.
But yeah, as far as verbal abuse, they would...
Like I said, lazy was a big thing.
Yeah.
They have a couple of stupid things.
Laziness was a big thing.
And as far as your spankings, I got a lot of...
More so the violent abuse, I guess, is what I got.
Right, okay.
And why do you think they hit on lazy?
Because there's so many things that people who are verbally abusive...
Can hit people with, right?
So, you know, for white males, it's racist and misogynist, right?
Because white males care about that, right?
They don't scream that at Japanese people or Arab men, because Japanese people and Arab men, I assume, don't really give a shit, so it doesn't work, right?
So whatever you're sensitive to, whatever you care about the most, is usually what verbal abusers will hook in on.
In fact, verbal abuse is a twisted form of compliment, right?
I mean, it really, it sounds weird, but it genuinely, genuinely is.
Verbal abusers will always hook into that which you care about the most, and so whatever people are unjustly saying about you, they usually have a good instinct about that's what you care about the most, and therefore it's the most hurtful because it's the most unjust.
Verbal abuse fundamentally is about injustice.
And, you know, if you go to somebody who's a proud racist of any race and you say, you're a racist, they'll say, hell yes, I certainly am, right?
But if you go to somebody who doesn't want to be a racist, is sensitive about issues of racism and so on and call them a racist, then it hurts them.
So it is a kind of compliment to...
So there must have been something about lazy that hit you harder than other things if it's what they use the most.
I'm not quite sure, but I would say...
For me, I was not so much lazy.
I was nothing that they...
Unmotivated, I guess, is what I would say.
They didn't put anything in front of me that made me want to try, so I didn't.
I kind of shut down, I guess.
But since I've kind of got into listening to you and some of the Austrian economic stuff, I'm going a thousand miles a minute, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
So they bored you or they didn't motivate you or you didn't want to do what they wanted to do because it didn't make sense to you or you didn't like it.
And therefore, they called you lazy.
Right.
Yeah, they would try to substitute my desires and wishes for theirs and then be upset with me when I wouldn't do what they wanted.
Right.
Okay.
So if I say to my daughter, let's go spend two hours in a computer store, and she doesn't want to, and I call her rude and lazy and unmotivated, that's not really...
I mean, not that I ever would, but that would only hurt her if lazy, rude, or unmotivated was a value that she had that she wanted to achieve, like the opposite.
Right.
My father would spend hours outside doing yard work, but whenever he did work, he...
would get angry right so i naturally wouldn't be able to be around him but thought i'd be inside and he'd say i was lazy for not wanting to go outside and get verbally or physically abused right why don't you want to come out and be yelled at for doing things wrong when i've never told you really how to do things right exactly uh why why do you want to stay inside when you could be out being the poison container for my sack of middle-aged venom right right right So rather than say...
And this is, you know, it's funny, it's really a statist kind of paradigm, you know, when you think about it, because I'm a free market guy, I view parenting as something that is a service I'm providing to my own.
And so if she doesn't want to do something with me, well, the fault is mine, right?
You know?
And so that is...
It's a very status paradigm to say, well, I'm providing this service, and if you don't like it, screw you, you're bad.
Like, can you imagine walking past a restaurant?
You're not hungry, or you don't like, I don't know, whatever food is being served.
And the guy comes out, grabs you by the lapel and says, you greedy bastard, come in here and spend some money.
What the hell's wrong with you?
I got a mouth to feed.
I got mouths to feed at home.
I mean, I opened this restaurant, you people are just walking past, now get the hell in here and spend some damn money.
Right.
Be like, I don't think you understand how the market works, you know?
You don't get to...
You don't get to hit me with your purse because I think you're too fat to be a hooker.
It's a very status thing, which is that we're providing this service and if you don't like it, the fault is yours and I'm going to punish you for it.
Is there something about the way that we're doing yard work that you don't enjoy?
The second thing that you had...
In your ACE was physical abuse, non-spanking?
Oh, yeah.
My dad would hit.
My mom would hit, too.
But it stopped abruptly when I was about 15.
Of course it did.
And why is that, you think?
Well, because it would hurt my father at that point to subdue me if I got angry.
Yeah, because you're big.
Yeah.
The young get young and the old get older.
Right?
Yeah, I mean, he's still pretty big.
It would hurt me now to hurt him.
So it's kind of like mutual assured destruction at this point.
Right.
Okay, and how often would you get hit?
I don't know.
It would be countless times.
I mean...
It's hard to remember when I was really young, but I would say probably two to three times a week, forever.
So, I mean, that was, well, until I was, like, 15.
And do you remember when it started?
It probably started as young as I was.
Well, I mean, I can remember at, like, five.
Like, yeah.
So, as early as five.
But probably younger, because I have a nephew now, and he was getting it at two or three.
So you were hit 1,000, 2,000 times over the course of your childhood?
Probably, yes.
Yes.
Man, I'm so sorry for that.
That is...
I wish I could say it's unbelievable, but it's...
No, it's surprisingly common.
And is there anything else that stands out?
Oh, I think the one for me was that, like, me and neither one of...
I have two siblings, and neither of us are close.
And I think it talks about how you would say an abusive person wants to separate them.
Does that make sense?
Like separate the kids?
Yeah, isolation is pretty key for abusers.
And it works very well with siblings.
Siblings have loyalty to the parent, not to each other, because it's the parent who provides the resources.
So as an organism that wants to live, that's what they have to do.
And if the parent says, Fight amongst yourselves, then that's what they'll do, right?
Right.
Also, older siblings can be the substitute for the parent to make sure the pecking order and humiliation is maintained when the parent is not around.
Yeah.
My brother was abusive, too.
I have an older brother.
Was it abuse or abusive?
Both.
I mean, it's kind of like, you know, he got it worse, and my younger sibling got it the least, but he kind of like, I would do it to my youngest sibling, And my older sibling would do it to me, you know what I mean?
And I feel bad for what I did, you know, and I apologize and that kind of stuff, but I mean, I can't undo that, if that makes sense.
What did you do?
Well, verbal abuse was mostly what it was.
I hit her a couple times, but mostly it was verbal abusive.
Right, right.
And what would you say to her?
Mostly it was about her weight, because she's a little overweight, or was then a little overweight, and so I would make jokes about her weight.
Because she was sensitive about it, right?
Of course, and she's uber sensitive about it now.
I mean, she's still very sensitive about it.
Yeah, I mean, if you go to some Serbian weightlifting woman and say, you're a little bit above bikini size, she's like, that's what I need to lift the weights.
I'm proud and happy of it, right?
Right, like what Ronda says about her weightlifting.
Yeah, like Ronda Rousey, right?
I'm not a do-nothing bitch, right?
So, yeah, if you say, Ronda, you know, you're not skinny, she's like...
Get up here.
Yes.
Yeah.
Come a little closer and repeat that if you don't mind.
She'll probably be all about that.
And so you said you have apologized for all that?
Yes.
And how has she taken it?
I don't...
She had a good cry and that kind of stuff.
I mean, our relationship's marginally better, but she's the one who has the child.
And so I think that she can't cope with some of the stuff that is in her past because she's currently doing it, if that makes sense.
And...
See, I thought that's what I think that it's...
I mean, I'm very against the spanking stuff, and for years I've been trying to fight against I'm doing it to him, but I read The War on Boys and stuff, because he's a little boy, and just starting school, and I'm just like, you know, you read this stuff, but it doesn't help.
Right, okay.
And so, was there anything else that stood out that you wanted to mention?
Yes, sir.
And you haven't done therapy.
I think you said you went twice?
Yes, I've been...
Yeah, we've done a couple of group sessions.
Right.
And just out of curiosity, since I think it can be important even if you haven't had a bad childhood, because if you've had a really good childhood and you have lots of original ideas and thoughts, even if you never went to public school, you still have to adjust to a world of people who were usually raised rather brutally and went to public school.
To me, there's almost nobody who shouldn't go to therapy.
That's just my particular perspective.
So I don't want to sound like, well, why haven't you gone?
You have to order or something, but I'm just curious.
Well, there's three main reasons I would say.
One is that I assume it's a long and hard process to find a good one, so there's some uncertainty there.
Then...
Hard to find a good divorce lawyer, but it's still cheaper to find a good therapist, right?
I agree.
I mean, I'm not saying it's a great answer, but that's the one I can't wait.
Yeah, okay.
The other one is, you know, I've got, you know, it costs money and I've got other things I want to do with my money at this point.
And then the last one is, this might be the truest one, but it would, in certain ways, it would make me change certain parts of my interaction with my parents.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Or confront it.
I don't know if it's the right word, but yeah.
Right.
If you had to rate them, it sounds like 3-2-1 is 1-2-3.
Perhaps.
Let's say you won the lottery and then you tripped over a great therapist on the street.
Right?
Yeah, I would definitely go.
The fact that it would change parts of your interactions with your parents, which is an interesting way of putting it, which we'll dig into in a sec.
But would that be a challenge one?
No, I think at that point, yeah, I would definitely do it.
Okay.
And what is it that you think?
It's interesting you say it would make me change certain parts of interactions.
Make you, like, it would happen to you?
Or do you think your therapist would, like, give you orders and say, well, you must say this, and if they say that, then you must say that?
I mean...
I would assume that under the process of therapy, you would want to change certain interactions.
It wouldn't be like therapy makes you do it, like you get possessed by the Carl Jungian demon and it takes over your spleen or something.
Right, I agree.
It would just be, because of the process of it, I would change, which would make the interactions with them change, if that makes sense.
Right, and what do you think would change?
I don't know.
I've tried to talk to my father about stuff, and all I get is this mantra that I did the best I could.
Really?
Was that an excuse that you...
Were able to give him, when you were doing yard work, and he'd say you did something wrong, if you said, well, listen, I'm seven years old, I did the best that I could, would he be like, well, that's okay, because, you know, you did the best you could.
Absolutely not.
That would never work.
Right.
So he's got a standard for a seven-year-old that's really high.
But then when it comes to parenting, which, you know, you could argue is a little bit more important than a yard work performed by a seven-year-old, he's got this excuse, which he would never give to a seven-year-old, digging a hole in the ground.
I completely agree with you.
It's just that When I try or attempt, it's mostly an attempt to talk to him.
It's just this barrier that he just keeps...
And he likes to go on a monologue.
And it's just like...
In certain ways, it's fruitless.
I'm just like, this is what I've experienced.
And it's like, well, I tried the hardest to good, and he talked about it for like an hour.
Say about how his...
He had a bad childhood, too, and that kind of stuff.
Or worse.
And so, I mean, it's like...
I try, and then I get blocked.
Well, it's not a monologue.
Technically, it's a filibuster.
A filibuster is when you speak to prevent other people from speaking.
That's perfect, yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
And what do you think would happen?
Look, I'm not suggesting you should or would or could, but what do you think would happen if you were to just say, stop, stop talking, I'm talking now?
Interrupt him or whatever it takes.
He would just talk over.
he might you talk louder he might right so if you really just again I'm not saying you should but what do you think would happen because you already have this in your mind which is why you don't do it like what do you think would happen if you just continue to try and make yourself hurt I feel like it would be more work than it would be worth I feel like No, no, come on.
Okay.
That's not, that's, it's not boredom or a sense of futility that's keeping you from having a voice in this relationship.
I'm sorry, I just, I can't accept, I can't accept that.
If the man, if the man's hit you a thousand times and you say, well, I'm making myself, it's, you know, I just, I feel it's more work, right?
Come on.
You're afraid.
I think you might have overstated a little bit with, like, no voice.
I mean, when we, as far as talking about my path, like, the childhood stuff, I have, I just can't get through, but, like, When he tries to tell me what I should do, he's like, I wish you and your brother were closer and tries to tell me what I should do with him.
And then I just, I basically am kind of a mirror.
I'm like, well, this is how you are with your brother.
Or he'll tell me how I should interact with my mom.
And I'm like, well, this is how you interact with your mom.
So, I mean, I feel like I can talk, but just there's like a no-go zone, if that makes sense.
Well, can you talk to him about ways in which he's hurt and upset you?
Um, I can attempt to.
And I have attempted to.
But, uh...
Can you?
Yes or no?
Have you had a successful conversation along those lines?
Okay.
Got it.
So the no-go zones are when your criticism...
Oh, absolutely.
...or your issues or your problems with him come to the forefront, right?
Right.
So it's like, he'll come at me trying to tell me, like, uh...
What I should do and that kind of stuff.
And I can kind of fight back at that point because he's open to the talk, I guess, because he's trying to influence me.
Because it's not a criticism of him, it's not about your history, and it's not personal to you.
Exactly.
When I try and go at him, I can't get the same kind of interaction, if that makes sense.
He basically shuts down.
And that's because he has no self-mastery.
He can't control his own emotions.
Oh, definitely not.
And one of the things that's basically true, and this is, I think, as true for Jackie's parents...
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And this filibustering is very...
And just think of the political correctness stuff, right?
People are hysterical in their emotional reactions.
Like, what do you mean?
I could possibly choose my own Halloween costume.
You know, like, they can't control their own emotional reactions.
It's a full amygdala flood on our selected immature brain.
Because they can't control their own reactions, they must control other people.
I mean, there's such terror in Europe that letting these, I don't even know what to call them, these Middle Easterners in, there's such terror that it might have been an absolutely disastrous idea that might be the end of European civilization, that anyone who brings up criticisms of it gets a visit from the police.
But a lot of people, not everyone of course, right?
But there is such terror, they can't have a robust debate.
About things because they have to control people because they cannot control their own emotions.
And whenever you see somebody interested in controlling other people, it is a sure confession that they cannot control their own feelings.
The desire to control others is a confession Of a lack of self-mastery, of a lack of capacity to deal with and manage one's own emotions.
I just saw sort of a big picture view, but I think it may apply to your parents.
Definitely, yeah.
Well, at least my father.
Yeah, definitely.
Ah, okay.
I get the deflective defense of the mom, so let's turn to her.
Oh, no, I think she's a complete coward.
She doesn't even try to do, like, oughts or shoulds.
It's just...
I'm this weak person.
Don't try and talk to me.
I'm stupid.
Is basically what I get from her.
Oh, she got the Amadillo rollover defense, right?
Yeah.
Play dead.
But because I can kind of inflict my will in certain ways on her as far as like when we talk.
Like not will.
Yeah, I mean I can will her into talking.
Whereas my father...
She'll conform, but she's not really there.
Oh yeah, she's like jello.
I don't mean to put words in your mouth, if I'm not accurate.
So that's what I get yelled at.
When my dad, last time he came at me, was like, treat him with your mother.
And then I just was reflecting or turning the moral morality on him that he was trying to apply to me.
Because that's the way it works with my parents.
My mom gets upset.
My dad, white nights.
Yeah.
Yeah, because he's got to control you because he can't control the suffering.
He can't manage the suffering he experiences from you.
Right.
And she probably is projecting this suffering to provoke him into action so she doesn't have to show up as a person.
Oh, absolutely right.
Oh, yeah.
Women radiating distress.
Mm-hmm.
It's like this giant black hole gravity well for half-formed men to come in and attack other men.
It's one of the ways in which society works.
It's a very dark undercurrent of society.
You used to see this more in movies and plays where you'd see the women provoking men into fighting.
It's really not shown as much anymore, which is a shame because...
I have a question.
It's basically the whole migrant thing, but anyway, go on.
Is it wrong that I enjoy, like, being able to, like, does my father control morality or would manipulate morality to, you know, influence the kids, or you and me and my sibling?
Is it wrong that I enjoy turning the tables on him?
You mean you enjoy cornering him with his own moral absolutes and watching him squirm?
Oh, yes.
It's so fun.
Yeah, well, that's not good.
Well, maybe it's like...
No, no, no.
You just said it was fun.
Well, it's fun having it so that...
That is not a good use of the word fun.
Well, it's...
What it does is it gives you...
Sorry to interrupt, but it gives you a very dark satisfaction because you're drawn into a relationship or you're maintaining a relationship, which is only win-lose.
Right.
Either you win and he loses or he wins and you lose.
And you're like, well, damn it.
When I was a kid, I had to lose.
Now I'm going to win.
But all you're doing is reinforcing the validity and value of win-lose relationships.
I guess, yeah.
Right?
I'm going to go in and beat this guy for once at his game.
And I got satisfaction out of it.
It feels good.
It's fun.
Okay, well, so now you're getting positive value out of a win-lose relationship.
I guess so, yeah.
And you're going to end up needing that fix, right?
Really?
And he probably submits to it so that he can provide value to you now that you're older without ever having to end up in a win-win situation.
The only time this ever happened was when he was trying to change my behavior, my interaction with my mother.
And I was able to take his...
I guess what I would feel is that I'm happy that his moral absolutes don't have the same sway on me.
That was kind of freeing, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
But you didn't say freeing to me.
Right, right.
Man, you guys are dodgy.
You're kind of reshaping the narrative now.
You said it was fun.
It was.
So you can recast it as freeing, but I'll believe the first thing I heard.
Because I think that had more authenticity to it.
I guess it was fun to see that I had the power in the relationship at that point.
Yeah, again, I don't think fun is the word you're looking for.
It may have been satisfying, it may have been a kind of turnaround, but I think we've got to be precise.
If you say to your fiancé, let's go out tonight and have some fun, I assume it doesn't mean going to taunt people with their own moral absolutes until they're paralyzed.
I don't know.
Right, right.
I'm really glad we're talking about that.
Worst Valentine's Day ever.
Right.
Right, so yeah, let's just be precise.
That was kind of a cavalier way of putting it.
Oh, definitely.
Right, okay.
Alright.
And in the future, let's just go through a couple of value questions, if you don't mind.
And I appreciate you guys' openness.
How's the conversation working for you so far, since I'm supposed to be providing some kind of service?
I'm enjoying it.
Yeah, I really like the last thing you guys just talked about with Bobby.
Yeah, I was...
Oh yeah, the like...
Oh yeah, because that's him with a lot of things I think sometimes.
Not like to put you under the bus or anything, but I don't want him to get satisfaction if in the long run it's not getting him any closer to like peace and working through it in a healthy way.
So I'm glad that that was discussed.
But this is going well for me.
I like it.
Good, okay.
And...
Value questions.
Do you guys want to have kids?
Yes.
How many?
Two.
Two.
When?
Six years.
Six years from now?
Yes.
You want to start at 34, really?
Yes.
Why?
At that point, she'll be, well, I mean, we could do it now as far as her staying home with the kids.
Well, hopefully not right now.
Although, that could actually be an interesting show.
Just kidding.
Go on.
Go on.
Financially, we could start having kids now, but we would feel more comfortable, at least I would feel more comfortable, when we're in our mid-30s, early to mid-30s.
I get that.
You just said the same thing twice, which is, we want to wait until 34.
Why?
Because I want to wait until I'm 34.
Why do you want to wait until 34?
So she can stay at home.
That's the big thing.
Why couldn't she stay at home now?
Like I said, she could, but it would just be easier then.
Well, why?
Because we would have more money.
Oh, so your plan is to save?
Yeah, exactly.
Yes.
Is it fair to say that you don't have any savings right now?
No.
Why?
You're living at home, right?
I mean, why don't you have any savings?
Oh, no.
I have savings.
I think we're not saving at the capacity that he's saying that we want to for the next few years.
Yes, we have savings.
Yes, we have savings.
But I have some career goals, too.
And Bobby has some things that he wants to And we have a financial goal that we're hoping to reach by the point that we would like to start procreating.
And, you know, forgive me for just asking these questions.
I'm going to be blunt and, you know, tell me if it's annoying.
But what are the career aspirations that you want to achieve, Jackie?
In general, you don't have to be very specific, but in general.
I'm licensed right now As a graduate social worker and I would like to get my clinical license so I can be clinically certified.
Clinical license to do therapy, is that right?
Yes.
Okay.
And that will take six years?
No, I should hopefully be able to sit for the exam in like September or October.
Okay.
And then you wanted to get your practice going, is that right?
Um...
I... I might at that point want to become a registered play therapist, but first goal is to become clinically certified.
And I don't know yet if I'm leaning toward the private practice, although I would like to do that later on.
How's that going to fit with kids?
So when the kids are older, and if we should integrate them into school at that point, my job is kind of flexible in that I could go into an office and be a contractual worker or You know, just do hourly, see a couple clients.
It would look like that.
But then I would think that as my kids become adults, that if I'm wanting to go back, then I, you know, I have that license.
I can do that.
Okay, but if you're going to, again, just asking for my own sort of clarity here, if you can get your license September or October of this year, you would then work for five years before having kids for what reason?
Just because, you know, whatever you're going to do, I'm going to assume that you're going to stay home and breastfeed at least until your youngest kid is, you know, five years old.
Let's just say five years old, right?
So let's say...
If you were to start now, it can take you six months, who knows, right?
And then nine months to have the baby, and then, I don't know, maybe two years or a year or two, then you have another baby.
So it's seven or eight years from now that your kids would be in school.
We plan on having twins.
I'm sorry?
We plan on having twins.
How do you plan on having twins?
Yeah.
I think we're going to try and make it so we're going to go see if we can make that actually happen, if that makes sense, like scientifically.
Really?
That's our goal.
Why?
I want twin boys and she's okay with that, I guess.
Why do you want twin boys?
I'm laughing now.
My arbitrary...
It's not arbitrary.
I mean, that's a significant decision.
I mean, twins have, as far as I understand it, slightly higher health risks and so on, and it's a hell of a lot of wear and tear on poor Jackie's everything.
You know, I'm not going to get into labeling these mysterious plumbing parts that I don't really understand, but that's not insignificant.
I mean, to want twins is a very big deal.
Uh, I guess maybe I should put more thought into it, but, um...
Well, it's, you know, it's just a thought, you know?
Well, I mean, it's...
Look at, do the research and find out, um, if there are...
This is also why we're waiting, because you can see that we're, you know, still...
Well, I guess, like, I haven't really looked in, because I think it's so far away, if that makes sense.
Well, but that's...
That's partly because if you have twins and you only want two kids, then it compresses the time that Jackie may be out of the workforce.
It compresses breastfeeding time, right?
And I guess finally makes me understand why women have two.
So that's kind of a begging the question thing, because if you don't have twins, then you're adding two years plus onto the time away from the workforce and all, right?
That's true, yes.
So, alright.
WebMD will help me.
Okay.
You are more likely to become pregnant with twins naturally when you are in your 30s and 40s.
Right, I knew that and I was, I think I told him that once.
I was like, we'll probably have twins anyway.
Right.
Let's see here.
Apparently you can do it without assisted reproductive technologies.
If you are not regular and do ovulate, you could be ovulating two follicles at the same time.
If you have two bones in the oven, extra folic acid, of course.
I'm sure you know that.
Women pregnant with twins clock in more time at the obstetrician.
I can imagine that's the case.
Morning sickness is worse, probably, with twin pregnancies.
Spotting more common.
You don't feel the babies kicking any early with twin pregnancies.
I thought sibling rivalry in the room would take care of that.
Women would take care of that.
Yeah, I like this one.
Moms pregnant with twins may gain more weight than moms carrying one child.
Really?
I can't imagine how that could be the case.
Risk of developing gestational diabetes is higher in twin pregnancies.
Risk of preeclampsia during pregnancy is higher in twin pregnancies.
Labor and delivery may come early with twin pregnancies.
And I think that's one of the challenges.
It should be 40 weeks, but most moms who have twins go into labor at 36 to 37 weeks.
It's a little bit preemie.
And that can be a challenge.
And maybe more of C-section likelihood with twin pregnancies.
Anyway, so these are just...
I don't know.
Maybe you can do it.
Maybe you can plan it.
But to me, I don't know how expensive it would be.
I would imagine that the technology to do this, if you really wanted it, would be pretty high.
And I don't know if you can do it.
I don't know what the medical ethics are.
Like if you can conceive normally, I think the way the twins come about is if women can't conceive, then they might implant a bunch of fertilized eggs in the woman and maybe that gives you the twins.
But I don't know what the law is if you can conceive naturally but want twins, whether doctors are allowed to help you.
I don't know that or not.
But these would be things to do a fair amount of research on before you just, you know, hope that this can all work out.
Right.
I guess some fairy tales thinking there.
Right.
And so I'm just trying to figure out, like, so to me, it's better to have kids young.
I mean, from both egg quality and sperm quality, which also begins to decline.
Especially since Jackie has a history of kids with autoimmune diseases, I assume that you'd want...
I'm sorry, a family history with some relationship to autoimmune diseases.
I assume you'd want younger and fresher eggs and sperm as possible, right?
Because you've got that challenge, right?
I remember your episode about talking about females being 18.
Like going to college and then right out of college, have babies, and then by the time their babies are grown up, then they can go back to the workforce.
Is that something you had said?
Because I was like resonating on that and I was like, man, that would be nice.
Right.
I mean, obviously, there's pluses and minuses, but I think if you're going to do a career push, I don't think it makes much sense to do it before you decide to have two kids.
Because then there's, you know, a seven-year or so interruption in whatever it is that you're going to do, right?
And I think if you wait until your kids are older and then you go and have your career push, you can keep it sustained.
Right.
Because also, listen, I mean, I'll tell you this from personal experience, guys.
You don't know what kind of kid you're going to get.
Hopefully not like yours.
You know, you may get a kid with health issues and then You know, you're going to spend your time trying to play catch-up with all of that.
Or you may just get a kid like mine who doesn't sleep.
And, yay, sign of high intelligence!
Oh, I'm exhausted, right?
Did she take, like, really short naps?
Because, like, really tiny naps are a sign, too.
It doesn't.
Yeah, I mean, you don't know, right?
Maybe you'll get two kids who just...
They're colicky, right?
And...
So I think it's better to get the early childhood stuff out of the way.
Then you can really hit the gas with your career.
Because if you do have high maintenance kids...
Then you're not going to have a lot of time to maintain professional credentials, to go to the seminars you need to maintain your license.
You may need to keep up a practice.
I don't know.
I mean, what do I know about even where you are?
You don't have to tell me.
And please don't.
But it may be, you know, these are just the kind of questions that maybe an outside eye or ear might be helpful with.
That if you're going to have kids, especially if there are a history of health issues on your side, Jackie, I would assume younger is better.
And why you'd want to wait six years and then interrupt a career in mid-flow, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure about the timing of that.
That's just my thoughts.
I don't have to answer.
I'm just pointing it out.
That's why we called you.
I'm sorry?
That's why we called.
We like your insight, your feedback.
Do you have similar views of money?
Somewhat.
Getting there?
Yes, that's exactly right.
I'm more of a saver, but I do spend.
I'm a big saver.
Jackie's becoming more of a saver.
But we're both spenders.
We can be, yes.
Well, kids will help with that.
Yeah.
I'm definitely reading a lot more and actually doing my part, too, to save more.
But we both have long-term values on our money and what we want to do with it.
Right.
And you don't have to give me, obviously, the dollar figures, but how much of your projected living expenses do you have socked away at the moment?
Like, if you lived wherever you're going to live after you get married, how much grace period do you have if you had no income whatsoever?
Two years, I'd say.
You could probably live for at least two years without any more income.
And who's coming into the marriage with more savings?
Me.
Is it a lot more?
Yes.
Right.
So, where did your money go, Jackie, again?
She's...
She's actually got some...
Excuse me, Mr.
White Knight.
Sorry.
I heard her speaking earlier, unless that was you, with some helium.
So, Jackie, where did your money go if you're living at home and have been for quite a good chunk of your adult life and you've been working...
Um, I have some put away in a Roth IRA and I have a good chunk in my savings, but for my young adult years and my early, like late teens and early twenties, I just, I wasn't very cognizant of it or very proactive with it.
You spent it.
Yes.
It's not cognizant and proactive.
I mean, come on, come on, let's, let's dumb it down a little here for me.
You spent it.
Right.
And what did you spend it on?
Going to concerts, going out, going on vacations.
Which is fine.
I'm not trying to be a nag here.
Vacations are great.
Part of the value of money is it helps you accumulate unusual experiences.
Those years where I was hooking up and whatnot, I did make a lot of great, I feel like, Productive memories and that was where my money was also spent.
Right.
You know, like I did have kind of like that hunger for exploring, so.
Right.
And of the savings that you were combined bringing into the relationship, what's the ratio of Bobby to Jackie, like percentage-wise?
It's not 50-50, right?
No.
1 to 10, maybe?
Really?
Really?
These are important questions to ask each other first.
So from your perspective, you're bringing nine bucks in for every dollar that Jackie's bringing in?
Yeah.
All right.
That's obviously fine, but that's important to know that, you know, with the age of 28, when everybody's brain is fully matured, Bobby's 10 times better at saving or is 10 times better at resource management and so on.
So that probably means that Bobby should handle the money.
That's just my thought from the outside or find some way to...
But this is coming as a surprise to you guys.
You've been together for two years and Bobby says what he thinks he's bringing in.
And Jackie, you've got to hear this back when you listen to this guy.
I know.
What?
You're like the end of Uptown Funk.
Say what?
I know how much he's got, but I just...
Because I didn't really do the math.
I mean, it's not like I was completely blindsided by that.
You know, the fact that you have very little money at the age of 28 tells me that this is not the first time you haven't done the math, right?
And I've been working a lot longer than she has.
That's awful.
No, I'm just being honest, right?
I mean, if you have strengths and weaknesses as a couple, you need to know that, right?
Right.
Yeah.
And she's been great about, like, you know, being able to learn about it, you know, and read books and that kind of stuff, which...
I find phenomenal that she's willing to learn.
Yeah, I mean, it may be less important to read books and more important to know how much savings each of you is bringing into a relationship.
That might be a little bit more pertinent.
But these are differences, and these differences may show up.
Generally, I mean, it's better if two people are savers as a whole, I think, just because two people are spenders, you know, unless they're Donald Trump and his wife, I don't know, I mean, you can spend, right?
But these are just, you know, what do people fight about?
They fight about sex, kids...
And money, right?
I'm not going to ask you about sex, because, you know, I assume you got that sorted out.
But these are important things.
Now, when you have kids, and I'm going to just...
I'll put the pitch in for, you know, get busy before the end of this call.
But if you have kids...
Yeah, leave the mic on, obviously.
But if you have kids sooner rather than later, then...
What involvement are your respective parents going to have in the raising of the children?
We talked about this.
We've talked, not linked about it, but I mean, I guess the ending of the talk was we'd have to talk more about it as it got closer, if that makes sense.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no!
So it doesn't make sense.
Absolutely not.
Okay.
Absolutely not.
Hey, I got a question.
Is this plane really going to...
Are the wings on this plane really going to hold on?
I don't know.
Let's figure that out when we're in the air.
No!
No, no, no!
Absolutely not.
This is not something you kick down the road.
Come on.
I feel like...
With me, I would be harder on my parents as far as not letting them see the kids.
And Jackie would be harder on her parents about not letting them see the kids.
So I don't think that that would be a conflict, if that makes sense.
I don't know what that means, because I don't know what that translates to in practical terms.
Marriage is not about intentions beforehand.
Marriage is about agreements.
Marriage isn't about, well, it'd be nice if we saved money.
Marriage is like, okay, what are we going to do with our money?
What percentage do we want to save?
What percentage do we want to spend?
I've been practicing that, by the way, and I just want to put a caveat in that I've definitely saved significant, and I feel like the ratio has gotten a little bit better in the past year.
Okay, I'm more than happy to have that subtitle clawback.
That's fine.
But when it comes to involvement of parents, look, if your parents have not apologized for hitting, for yelling, for insulting...
Verbal abuse, right?
If they have not apologized for it, then if they have the opportunity, it seems likely that they will do it to their children.
To your children, sorry.
Right.
So, can you leave your children alone with people who are unrepentant hitters and yellers and insulters?
Right.
I think we had mentioned, I feel like back in the very At the early stages of what we discussed that.
Well, we said something about like when we, if we had kids and we were around our parents, when we had kids and we were around our parents, that we wouldn't leave our kids with our parents.
Like we would always be there because of that reason.
So that, you know, they wouldn't even have that opportunity to behave like that.
Okay, that's fine.
Now let's say that your parents act really well around those children.
Can I tell you something?
Do you guys have any idea how much that is going to screw you up?
I don't even think about that.
Right?
Because either they're crappy to the kids the way that in a lot of ways they were crappy towards you, or they're great with the kids.
In which case, oh my God.
Can you imagine what that's going to be like?
Watching your kids have the great grandparents instead of you having the great parents who are the same people.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I don't know if I think that that would be a problem.
You don't think that would be a problem?
No, I mean, like, I don't know.
Come on, this is your history.
This is a core of traumatic things that had a significant degree in forming who you are.
And if your parents are really great with your kids, you know what they're saying to you?
They're saying to you, oh yeah, we know exactly how to do it.
We just didn't do it with you.
You know, like, it's sort of like if you and I were traveling through Nicaragua and you get into all kinds of trouble and I'm like, well, I don't speak Spanish, man, I don't speak Spanish.
Can't help you.
Don't speak Spanish.
You end up getting arrested, thrown in jail.
I don't speak Spanish, right?
Right.
And then, you know, two years after you're released, it turns out I was actually a Spanish-speaking lawyer the whole time.
Are you kidding me?
Yeah.
Don't think it would bother you.
Think again.
I'm not trying to put thoughts in your head.
I just can't imagine how it wouldn't.
I mean, I think we will definitely be triggered and then we'll get emotional.
What are you going to do if your parents insult you or undermine you or snap at you in front of your children?
I don't feel like my parents would try.
So they know how to act really well.
They just didn't with you.
Oh, of course.
Well, I mean, when you're growing up, you know, if you, like, mom's off the phone and she's yelling at us, but as soon as the phone picks up, she can act normal.
You know what I mean?
So, I mean, yeah, they know how to act.
When they had the power, they chose not to act.
So they wouldn't undermine, they wouldn't...
None of the habits that they developed and have as people who've been on the planet decades longer than you have, all of those habits would be perfectly broken.
They wouldn't try and undermine you.
What if you reason with your child instead of hitting your child or yelling at your child?
How is that going to affect your parents?
If they're right there in the room.
Are they going to roll their eyes?
Are they going to do anything to undermine your authority with your children?
yeah because there's almost nothing that makes parenting harder than children seeing their own parents authority be undermined yeah Because if your children respect your authority, they're very open to listening to what you have to say.
But if they ever suspect that you are If you're authoritarian with them and submissive to other people, they're going to rebel because they're going to feel like they're at the bottom of the totem pole and you're not living your values.
So if your parents, you know, snap at you or roll their eyes or do something to undermine or you're coddling that kid or for God's sakes, I'll take care of it or whatever it is, right?
And you don't immediately stand up for yourself and have it out in a productive and stand your ground and so on.
You know, when your kids, you know, I mean, I'm sure you guys remember this when you were kids that there was at some point where you said, Wow, I wonder if my parents are kind of losers.
Oh, yeah.
You know, when you're little, these gods, they walk like Olympian deities through the house and everything's huge.
I remember at some point, I can't remember exactly when it was, but I just remember at some point thinking like, wow, what if my mom is not all I think she is?
It sort of started that way.
It's a horrible thought.
And I won't, I'm just telling you myself, I won't have people around who I can honestly confront because I don't want my daughter seeing me fold rather than have it out.
And then, let's say, like, I'm just saying if my mom was around, right, she would do things that would be undermining or difficult or weird or whatever it is, and either I'd say something or I wouldn't.
Now, if I didn't, my daughter would see that I was cowed and didn't stand up for myself, in which case, how could I ever ask her to stand up for herself?
Or I would say something back, in which case things would escalate to the point where things would go kind of crazy pretty quickly, in which case my daughter would look at me and say, why is this person in the house again?
Right.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
This is why I'm asking a lot about, have things been resolved with your parents before you get married?
Especially, and that's why one of the first questions was, do you want to have kids?
You know, even dogs do this, right?
So if one dog dominates another dog, the dog will submit.
But if the dog sees another dog dominating the dog who dominated him, he will now resist.
He will fight.
Yeah, I did the same thing to my mom that you're saying.
I would say the same thing.
I'm like, God, why is my mom like that?
Like, look at how she is.
And then I would compare them to my other aunt and uncle.
And so it's like, why wouldn't my kids do that too?
They absolutely would.
Right.
And so if there are people with opposing values in your life, then you can't ever ask your children to have integrity.
I mean, you can ask them, but they won't listen.
In fact, they'll respect you even less.
Right.
We're expecting them at the age of 5 or 6 or 7 or 10 to do something that you're not willing to do at the age of 30 or 35.
Yeah.
And, you know, a lot of grandparents really get into being around their grandkids.
You know, it's a biologically powerful relationship.
For obvious genetic reasons, that's what grandparents are programmed to do, at least, you know, decent people.
Like, I mean...
So, that's an important thing to figure out.
And, you know, with the stress of...
God, twins, if you want twins, right?
With the stress of twins, with the drop in income that happens at the same time, if you don't have things figured out with your parents beforehand...
Man, you've got to be facing a big mess in a very critical time when you do not have a lot of strength, energy, and concentration.
And I think this is why, you know, people say, well, you know, we had kids and our happiness level went down quite a bit.
And it's like, I think it's not just the kids.
Right.
You were just getting by without the kids, but now you have no energy left and even harder to connect and be happy.
Well, it's, you know, it's obviously going to be more familiar to you, but, Jackie, sorry, because you're living with your parents, but, you know, parents come over a lot when there's a...
Grandparents come over a lot when there's a grandkid around, and at the same time, if you haven't broken through...
And become true adults with your parents?
Which is why I'm asking all these questions about assertiveness and we were talking about the filibustering with Bobby and so on.
If you haven't self-actualized and become an adult with regards to your parents, then you're going to be in this completely screwed up situation if they're around a lot after your kids are born because you will be trying to be a parent while still being treated like a child by your parents.
Right.
You will try to be having authority with your own children at the same time that you will feel cast back into the dungeons of childhood where you're powerless and helpless with regards to your own parents.
It's a screwed up place to be.
Whereas if your parents have accepted and you've grown and they accept you as full adults, then...
You compliment each other when it comes to parenting and grandparenting as opposed to you taking on the most awesome responsibility while being cast back into the most helpless dungeons of childhood.
These are things I would consider, you know, if I were in your shoes moving forward.
So, just to make sure, so you would think we should try and, you know, get that breakthrough moments with our parents, if that's the right word?
You know, you're smart listeners to the show.
You don't need me to give you a roadmap, right?
But I think that if you're going to be parents, you need to be self-actualized with regards to your own parents, if they're going to be around a lot, right?
And I don't think you mentioned anything about moving, so I don't know where your parents are, Bobby.
And again, it doesn't matter hugely, but certainly Jackie's parents are going to be around, right?
If you're in the same neck of the woods.
Yeah.
It will be good.
If you have a good relationship with your parents, having them around when your kids are born is a pretty helpful thing, right?
I mean, they've gone through it and so on.
But you all have to be on the same page with regards to you guys are adults.
They can't be the know-it-alls.
They have to respect your decisions, and they sure as hell have to respect your parenting choices, which, since you listen to this show, I'm going to assume are, you know, reasoning not hitting, no punishments, no raised voices, no yelling.
And that's going to provoke a lot of crap in your parents if you're parenting the opposite way, right?
I mean, just think of something as simple as this.
You're driving north with your dad in the car, and he's in charge, and he's like, I know exactly where we're going.
And then he's like, well, you're like, Dad, you're tired.
I'm going to drive for bed, right?
And then you turn a car around, drive the exact opposite way without saying anything.
What's he going to say?
Right.
What the hell are you doing?
What the hell are you doing?
If you parent the opposite way that you were parenting, of course there's an implicit criticism in it.
And implicit shit is what gets families messed up.
Make it explicit.
Make it conscious.
Say, look, your parenting did not work for me.
Your parenting was destructive in many ways for me.
Did some great stuff, but here's all the destructive did.
We are not going to yell.
We are not going to raise our voices.
We are not going to insult.
We are not going to hit.
And we can do everything we can to avoid getting our kids into public school because it sucks.
Right.
So you guys, and look, you can try and skate through and just say, well, I'm going to have all this implicit criticism by parenting the exact opposite way that you parented.
But that's going to mess everything up because it's not even explicit.
You need to have these conversations, in my view, in my opinion, before you start pumping out the barons, right?
Right.
Because marriage is about children.
That's what the institution is for.
And your parents can be a great resource for you as parents, but not if you're doing the opposite and not even acknowledging it.
And parenting, when you're tired, when your kids have been up all night, when you may be pregnant with your second kid and you haven't slept and you've got to feel like you've got to pee all the time and then your kid's throwing up, right?
And then your parents come over and it's like, this is when people short circuit, right?
Right.
You want your parents, please come and help me.
Mom and Dad, come and help me.
And they knock and say, oh great, come on in.
I'm at my wit's end.
Fantastic, right?
But you've got to, if you're going to parent the opposite way or different than your parents, then you've got to work that shit out beforehand.
Because you can't do it after.
You'll be too tired, I'm telling you.
That's why we're calling you, because yeah, we don't want to I don't want to sound like I'm nagging, even though I'm probably nagging.
That's okay.
We need it.
That's sort of my thoughts about things that you could move forward on.
Is there anything else you wanted to add?
No, I think those are the main points.
Is that entitled to avoid divorce thing?
Would be just to work things out with our parents and get on track with the money and the kids thing.
And that'll Those are the obvious ones.
I mean, there's other things that are more subtle and so on, but I've got a whole book called Real-Time Relationships about some of that stuff.
But these are the sort of value discussions that I think would be important.
And the other thing, which is you guys have been together for two years, and there's still a lot that you're not sure about with each other.
A lot of stuff that has been kind of half-discussed.
Okay, so stop doing that.
Like, if you're going to get married...
Okay, turn off the TV or put down the tablet or the Xbox controller, whatever it is.
Get busy.
Like, talk to each other.
Learn about each other.
Be honest with each other.
Call each other out on the fog, which we all have.
But if you're aiming to, you know, if you're going to land the plane, spend some time getting the wheels down, right?
Otherwise, you're going to have a belly full of sparks.
So, whatever you've been doing for the last two years, change it so that you answer these questions and the million other ones that we can't get into in an hour and three quarters.
So that you know each other inside and out, and there won't be surprises.
And some of these things are foreseeable, and some of them are a little less foreseeable.
But there's more that you guys need to know.
If you're aiming at marriage and kids, you've got to know it all.
And that's like face-to-face for hours.
Okay.
All right.
No fog.
No fog.
None of the stuff you pulled earlier in the call, which is totally understandable, but you've got to just grit your teeth in total honesty.
And that, I think, gives you your best shot.
All right.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, was it useful?
Good.
I'm not sucking up for compliments.
I just want to, you know, know if there's anything that could have been done better or different.
Yeah, it was definitely eye-opening in certain ways, yeah.
All right.
I'm just kidding.
All right.
Well, thanks, everyone.
Well, thanks to you guys in particular.
I appreciate that as much.
Give us a call, of course.
Keep us posted about how you're doing and very best of luck.
Thank you.
Thanks, guys.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
Go forth and multiply.
All right.
Up next is Adam.
Adam wrote in and said, starting on page 65 of universally preferable behavior, you take the time to show that rape is a moral evil.
The first step you take is to rule out the idea that rape is a moral good.
You begin by writing that, clearly, if I proclaim that X is the good, then the opposite of X must be evil.
If not raping is good, then raping must be evil.
Conversely, if raping is good, then not raping must be evil.
Raping someone is a positive action that must be initiated, executed, and then completed.
If rape is a moral good, then not raping must be a moral evil.
Thus, it is impossible for two men in a single room to both be moral at the same time, since only one of them can be a rapist at any given moment.
And he can only be a rapist if the other man becomes his victim.
After reading this, I am left with a few questions that I hope you can help me with.
A, if raping is good, why must not raping be evil?
And B, why can't both parties rape each other at the same time?
That is from Adam.
Hey Adam, how you doing?
Hello Stefan, how are you this evening?
I'm well, thank you.
Can you hear me alright?
Yes, very nice.
Very nice.
It's like you're my conscience.
It's that deep in my spine.
Do you want me to, is there anything else you wanted to add to the question?
No, I think it's pretty straightforward.
I just didn't understand how you were drawing the opposites in the text.
Well, let's start with the easiest one.
Let me ramp up to it and switch my brain from marriage relationship guy.
So, why can't two men rape each other at the same time?
Right, okay, so we're going to go with question two, right?
Yeah, we'll start with the easiest one and we'll get to the other one.
It's also for the listeners to get warmed up to the topic.
Right, no worries.
So, rape, by its definition, is one person wants to have the sexual relationship and the other person really, really doesn't, right?
They're not kind of like, oh, you know, I'm a little tired, but maybe this will help my headache or something.
But they're like, no, I really, you know, it's like that...
It's a Swedish or Danish commercial with the oven mitts.
Stand back!
Then she hits a guy with a purse.
There's some commercial in Swedish or Danish.
And the commercial is, here's how to deal with street harassment.
And it's for these women who've got a lot of migrants around.
And you hold up your hand.
It's a four-step.
It's a three-step process.
First, you hold up your hand.
And she's got like these oven mitts on.
So oven mitt power.
And then if that doesn't work, if he comes back, you hold up two hands to ward him off.
And that will make him run away.
And then the third is that you hit him with your purse.
And that will drive him off.
What this says about women who end up being assaulted, obviously, is that they didn't follow these steps.
It's truly astounding what is happening to feminism these days.
But anyway.
So if you are going to get...
If a rape is occurring, one person wants it and the other person doesn't want it, right?
Right, I guess I'm wondering what...
Hang on, hang on.
I'm right in the middle of explaining something.
I don't know where we're going now, but if we could hold off, I'd appreciate it.
Sorry.
All right.
So, rape cannot be universally preferable behavior...
Because rape by definition is one person wanting it and the other person not wanting it.
So the more technical way of putting it is rape, two men cannot hold rape as universally preferable behavior.
Rape itself cannot be universally preferable behavior because for something to be classified as rape, one person wants it and the other person doesn't and therefore it can't be that both people want it equally.
It's not possible to achieve.
Not raping Two men can both not rape each other.
In fact, the whole world, hopefully one day, cannot rape anybody.
So that can be universally preferable behavior.
Not raping can be universally preferable behavior.
Raping can't be.
Because if it's universally preferable behavior, then what I'm saying is, I want someone to rape me.
But of course, if you want someone to rape you, I don't know, 51 shades of gray, but it's not rape anymore, right?
You're paying for some whatever.
It's consensual, right?
It may be role-playing or whatever, but...
It's not rape.
You wouldn't have it classified.
If you've signed a consent form, then it's not, you know, whatever.
It's not stabbing if you've signed a consent form at the hospital.
So, rape cannot be universally preferable behavior.
Rape, theft, assault, murder, none of these things can be universally preferable behavior.
Like, if I leave a fridge...
No, not a fridge, because I've got to take the door off.
If I leave...
A cooler, you know, at the front of my house with a sign that says take me.
I can't charge someone with theft for taking it, right?
Because it's not theft.
I want them.
In fact, they're saving me a trip to the dump or whatever, right?
But if someone comes into my house and steals a cooler than I can because there's no implicit or explicit permission for them to take my property.
So theft cannot be universally preferable behavior because if I want you to take my stuff, In other words, if I want you to commit the act of theft against me, the act of theft evaporates because I want you to take my property, which means it's not theft anymore.
So the asymmetry of desires, to put it in sort of economically, mildly technical terms, the asymmetry of desires, one person wants it, one person doesn't want it, precludes any such commandment from being universalizable, if that makes sense.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm still not getting my head around why two people can't rape each other at the same time.
Not a moral judgment, just whether or not they can hold the correct mental states and desires and commit to act against each other at the same time.
Well, two people can shoot each other at the same time, but that's, I guess, I mean, the issue is that the book is called Universally Preferable Behavior.
And so, when I say that two people in the same room Cannot hold rape as universally preferable behavior.
It's just a way of breaking it down to two people.
Rape cannot be universally preferable behavior.
That's really what that means, right?
I guess, I don't know what contortions, like what Cirque du Soleil gymnastics you'd need to get into for two people to rape each other at the same time.
I guess it could be technically possible.
In the same way that two people can murder each other, two people can steal from each other, they can both pick each other's pockets at the same time.
This can happen physically.
But philosophically speaking, The rape, the theft, the murder, and the assault cannot be universally preferable behavior for both people.
Because fight club, like two people can be beating up on each other and they both want to be there.
Like fight club or just a regular old boxing match.
This is why boxing match, people don't get charged with assault.
But you try that outside the ring, you'll get charged with assault unless you're threatening Ben Shapiro, in which case you're part of a protected class and that's a whole other story.
So forget the technicals of two people physically raping each other at the same time or murdering each other at the same time.
These things could happen.
But they can't do it and hold murder, both hold murder, rape, theft, assault as universally preferable behavior because it can coexist with the asymmetry of desires.
Okay, that answers my question.
So it sounds like we're on the same page.
Physically, two people can be rapists and rape each other at the same time.
So when we say only one of them can be a rapist at any given moment, we don't mean it in terms of literally true.
We're talking about in your moral system.
They can't both be morally right rapists.
Well, I've got to just quibble with you saying my moral system.
It's like saying my mathematical theory.
It's either a valid mathematical theory or it's not, but ascribing it to one individual is a way of cheapening it without rebutting it.
So it's not my moral system.
It's the moral proposition or the moral argument that I'm putting forward.
But that's just a minor quibble.
But yeah, that's the universality of the principle.
You can't say rape is universally preferable behavior.
Because somebody has to not want to be raped, in which case they're not accepting it as universally preferable behavior.
And if everyone accepts it, nobody can get raped because everybody wants to have sex.
So that's just a logical argument.
It's not sort of my moral system like my beard or something.
So that's the only minor quibble I'd have with the way you framed it.
But yeah, that's the general idea.
Well, in terms of the way I quibble it, and unfortunately, when I call into the show, of course, we have certain questions that we're going to discuss rather than, you know, all topics at all times throughout a very lengthy conversation.
I don't actually agree with the UPB. I don't think it's a valid moral system.
I don't think it's a moral system at all.
But obviously, in asking these two very focused questions...
Why don't you start with the more important thing then?
Tell me how the arguments are incorrect.
Well, certainly I can have another conversation about that if we could do the two questions.
No, I don't want to talk about the framework of a moral argument that you don't accept at all, right?
I mean, that's, you know, if I say that two and two make five at the beginning of a 500-step mathematical proof, I don't want to talk about 480 if you're saying that two and two make five is incorrect.
I mean, why would we start later if the entire framework is incorrect?
But the actual questions is not relating to that framework.
I actually thought that when you wrote, it is impossible for two men in a single room to be moral at the same time, and then you wrote, only one of them can be a rapist at any given moment.
I thought you literally meant it was physically impossible for two men to rape each other at the same time.
Now I know that's not the case.
You're not talking about it being physically impossible when you say that only one of them can be a rapist at any given moment.
So the question, in that sense, you answered it.
I agree with you.
Two men can be rapists.
No, but after I answered it, you said that it's not a valid moral system.
You said, I didn't think, but you've reassured me, but I currently don't think it's a valid moral system, which is obviously perfectly fine.
Maybe it's not.
I'm always happy to hear arguments.
But if, after I've answered that, you still don't think it's a valid moral system, then I need to know what your other objections are.
Well, no.
The answer you gave me is not a moral answer.
You answered a question of physical reality.
Can this physical occurrence take place?
Can two individuals rape each other at the same time?
Okay, we've already had that conversation, but after we had that conversation and I answered it, you still said that you didn't think it was a valid model framework, right?
The UPB as a whole.
Right, we answered the question, so we would go on to another question, correct?
Okay, so this is not...
This is not why you thought it was an invalid moral framework.
It may be one of the reasons, but it's not.
Correct.
There's the one question, the question A, if raping is good, why must not raping be evil?
It's sort of more logical or will be closer to the moral issues.
But the why can't both parties rape each other at the same time was really a physical question because I had read it and I interpreted it literally as in you saying two people can't be rapists at any given moment towards each other.
All right, let's move on to the next question because we're just replowing old ground for no purpose.
So go ahead.
Not saying it's your fault, but let's go on.
So, yeah, I was reading it, and you start off by saying, you know, if X is a good, then the opposite of X must be evil.
And so then you say, if rape is good, you know, not rape must be evil.
That's not a direct quote for that second part, but you understand.
Let's take this one at a time.
I mean, if X is, let's just say, the highest moral ideal, then the exact opposite of X must be the worst thing, right?
Right, right.
Okay, so, so far, if x is the good, then the opposite of x must be the bad.
We're okay on that, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
I follow you that far.
Alright, and then?
And so then you say, and if I may just preface that, when we say that x is a good, therefore the opposite is, you know, the absolutely bad or the evil, Well, no, no.
Sorry, sorry.
There's two.
The first example I gave was if X is the very highest moral ideal, then the opposite of it must be the most base or the most evil.
And then I just said the good and the bad.
So the most is an extreme, right?
I mean, something can be mildly good, and then the opposite would not be the greatest evil imaginable, right?
But go on.
But I guess what I'm getting at is when we say the opposite of good is evil, evil is something other than the absence of a moral judgment, right?
Hang on.
Evil is something other than the absence of a moral judgment.
Right.
Evil is a moral judgment as well.
It's the opposite of the good moral.
It's like a negative moral judgment.
It's to say that is evil.
Well, it's like health and illness.
Are you saying health is a judgment of well-being and...
Illness is a judgment of negative well-being.
So they're both involved in the continuum of well-being, is that right?
Exactly, exactly.
It's not an absence of any question of health, like a dead object, but rather, you know, it's separate ends of a continuum.
And it requires that a rock cannot be healthy or unhealthy because it has no preferred state.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so then when we say that rape is a moral good, I'm wondering how you drew the conclusion that not raping or not rape would be moral evil.
So if rape is, let's say rape is, and we'll just make it easier, put it at the extremes, because the extremes are usually easier to see.
So if we say, if we put forward an argument that said that raping is the highest moral ideal, it's the very best thing that you can do, right?
What would be evil in that, if the opposite, right?
What would be evil in that scenario?
So, to get the evil in that scenario, we'd have to define rape, what it meant to a moral, because we're judging a moral actor, right?
A person?
A moral action, because it's abstracted from the actor, but yeah, okay, it's not that crucial.
So, rape is the highest moral good, right?
Sorry for talking over you.
No problem.
What we have to do is we have to define what rape means in the sense of how a moral actor embodies it or expresses it.
Rape would be a desire on one end to sexually penetrate another person.
Not a desire.
And it would be...
Pardon?
No, it's an action.
There's no thought crime in rape, right?
You can think about rape.
That's not illegal.
That's not a crime.
It's not a thought.
It's not a desire.
It's the actual...
Consummation of that thought of desire and explicit violent action, right?
I would say for practical terms it is.
If there's no expression of it, you could never prosecute it or identify it if it was never expressed.
But there are inchoate offenses of attempt rape and the like.
No, but attempt rape is not just that.
You said rape is the desire for penetrating somebody else.
And I'm just pointing out that it's the action.
It has to be manifested in some manner.
It's not the desire.
We assume that the desire is there prior to the action.
It's necessary but not sufficient for the commission of the crime.
So it's...
But when you're talking about crime, are you actually saying that the action itself is morally good and evil and not the moral actor?
Or the moral actor is good or evil?
I'm not sure.
I don't care.
I mean, we could quibble about that if we want, but I mean, I don't care.
We're talking about the abstraction thing called rape, and I'm asking you a simple question, right?
Which is, if rape is the highest moral good, what would be evil in that formulation?
And so when we abstract it and we're talking about moral judgments and moral agents, I'm saying that rape is a twofold thing.
Rape is the desire to penetrate another person and it's twofold because on the other side, it's the repulsion or for lack of a better term...
Hang on, hang on.
We just had this conversation.
I don't know if you didn't listen or didn't agree or whatever, right?
You just said rape is the desire to penetrate another person, right?
We just had this conversation.
I don't know if you've got an input or you're just an output guy, but what did I say about that?
You didn't allow me to complete my definition of rape.
It's not just the desire to penetrate another person.
That would not be rape by itself.
Okay.
So, and maybe I'm speaking too slowly, I'll speed up a little bit, but rape would be the desire to penetrate another person, and then on the other end of that transaction, it's going to be the repulsion or undesire of being sexually penetrated.
That would be the opposite of rape, and it would be expressed in the physical world by however you want to define how people move their bodies, but that would be its physical expression in reality.
But on the part of a moral agent, it's going to be that desire on the one end and repulsion on the other end.
Okay, so you basically didn't add anything to what you were pushing back on me about.
Rape is not desire.
We've gone through this a bunch of times.
You said, no, you didn't let me finish, and then you defined rape as desire.
So I don't know what's going on here, like whether you're not hearing what I'm saying or whether we're going through some Babelfish mistranslation, but rape is not desire.
Rape is a specific violent action which is sexual in nature.
And how do you know it's rape as opposed to regular sex?
What do you mean?
Well, clearly, if, you know, two partners are willing to have sex together, it's not going to be rape, is it?
Yeah, I think that's pretty much the definition of consensual sex, right?
So where does rape differ from consensual sex?
I'm not sure what you mean.
Are you asking me for some legal definition or some definition of empirical proof or some moral definition?
Because these things all would have different standards, right?
Right, but in terms of you saying that rape is the evil or rape is the good, you're referring to something other than consensual sex, right?
Yeah.
And so when you say that consensual sex is not going to be the basis of this evilness, how is rape something different or beyond consensual sex?
And the reason I'm asking you this is because I believe your answer, or the answer that I am giving, is going to be it's a different set of desires in the two parties.
No, it's not.
What the hell is wrong with you, man?
We keep going over this thing.
It's not desire.
Look, everybody has different desires, but that's not a crime.
So what makes rape different from consensual sex?
The violence.
The action.
The forcing of your will on someone else.
It's like saying, what is the difference between theft and charity?
Exactly.
Voluntary, it's the permission.
It's the explicit permission to take someone's goods or the explicit permission or at least implicit depending on where you stand on these kinds of issues to allow someone to have sex with you.
Whereas if you fight back and you say no and the guy punches you and holds a knife to your throat and beats you up and well then clearly it's not consensual.
Well, there you go.
Now, instead of desire, we're using the word consent.
And perhaps I should be folded for using that term.
No, I'm not talking about the word consent.
It's the violence.
Yes, but how is the violence different in rough, consensual sex and rough rape?
Well, no, because violence...
Okay, it's the assault.
Let's put it that way.
It's the assault.
It's probably a better way of putting it.
Because that's like saying, well, why is being beaten up different in a boxing ring than it is in an alley behind the boxing ring?
Well, it's very different because in the boxing ring, both people are there consensually.
They beat each other up, and that's right, but they're there consensually beating each other up.
Whereas if one person really doesn't want to get beaten up and isn't there voluntarily, then it's assault.
Exactly.
And so when we're talking about the opposite of rape, we have to give the opposite of that thing, of rape.
And so when you asked me, you know, what would be the opposite of rape, that's what I was doing.
I was defining rape and then I was finding the contrary of each element or each part of rape.
And I don't feel that you – well, I don't feel – it's literally you didn't do that in the text.
You just say it's not rape.
Okay.
So I want to know...
So your issue with the moral arguments I put forward is that I didn't define the exact opposite of rape as a moral ideal.
That's where you're hung up.
That is the big thing that you have with this system.
Well, the big thing is that you begin by saying that evil is the opposite of good, correct?
Yeah, I think anybody who would disagree with that is not able to have much of a conversation.
I'm not putting you in that category.
But yeah, evil is the opposite of good.
I absolutely agree with that much.
And you say, you know, if X is the good, then the opposite of X is evil.
And then we're switching X to rape.
Actually, I put it, yeah, rape is good, so rape would then be X. And so then, when we draw the opposite of X, we get the evil.
And so when you are drawing the opposite of X when X is rape, you just say, not rape.
And I don't understand what you mean by not rape and why you think rape and not rape have the same relationship as good and evil.
Well, this is part of why it's so absurd to think that rape can be the highest moral ideal.
Right.
Because to say that A specifically, this is part of the, I don't know if you read that bit about the coma test in the book, right?
But the coma test is basically the argument that inaction cannot be a form of evil.
It's a very generalized way of putting it.
But a guy in a coma can't be evil.
And therefore, any moral system which defines or ends up with the proposition that some form of inaction Has a moral quality to it, then that is not a very good or valid moral system.
I mean, this is an old Aristotelian argument that, you know, I don't care where you start from if you end up with murder is good, you've made a mistake somewhere because it just doesn't make any sense.
Not you, but this is his argument.
And so, inaction cannot have very strong moral qualities.
And So the argument then goes, well, if rape is the very highest moral ideal, then the opposite of rape, which, what is the opposite of rape?
It's pretty hard to define, right?
But definitely it's not doing something.
It's not raping.
That's all we know.
The opposite of rape could be stamp collecting.
It could be climbing a mountain.
It could be having a nap.
It could be tying your shoes, right?
It's sort of like the difference between saying to someone, don't stand on one square foot in the middle of Kansas.
Okay, well, you've got the rest of the world to play with.
As opposed to saying to someone, go stand in one square foot in Kansas.
Well, that's quite a bigger restriction on their freedom than just saying go anywhere except that one square foot in Kansas.
And so when I say, well, if we have the argument that rape is some sort of moral ideal...
What is the opposite of rape?
I don't know.
You can't really define it, and therefore you can't have evil in a situation where a specific action is the moral ideal.
The whole continuum falls apart.
That's sort of the argument that's in the book, and it's sort of contained in the section on the coma test.
So the fact that you can't define the opposite of rape, I fully accept that.
I can't either.
No, I can.
I can define the opposite of rape.
Okay, go ahead.
So, as we just said, rape is a sexual act where you have consent on the one side to do it, and you have a lack of consent on the other side.
Yeah.
Is that fair?
Yeah, that's rape.
And so then when you would create the opposite, or look for the opposite of rape, and, you know, fundamentally speaking, I obviously don't think rape is good, so this is ultimately an odd thought test, but I don't think rape is The definition of evil either.
I think the whole test is broken.
But let me just start again.
Rape is going to be that one consent on the one side, lack of consent on the other side when we're referring to a sex act.
The opposite of rape is going to be a switching of those consents.
No, not a switching of both consents.
A switching of both to consent.
No, one person always consented.
Otherwise there would be no sex act.
Right.
So it would be a switching over of the consent from one side to the other and the repulsion.
To say there's a lack of consent, a rock has a lack of consent in the sense that it can't consent.
It's a negation.
I'm saying repulsion as that sort of unconsent or the positive avoidance of consent or repulsion.
I'm sorry, I'm having trouble because we had desire and now we have consent and I get that.
But if I walk up and punch you in the face, what am I consenting to?
You're consenting to punching me in the face.
You wanted it to happen.
I'm not sure what consent means there.
If I tie my shoes, am I consenting to tie my shoes?
Does it just mean something I want to do?
Absolutely, yeah.
Okay, got it.
It's tough to use the same word for me consenting to someone else and me consenting to myself.
But okay, we can use the same word.
I just wanted to clarify that.
Right.
And for consent, I viewed it, or I defined it as sort of That agreement or willingness for something to occur.
So, you know, you consent to tie your laces.
You agree or you will it to occur.
If you walk up and punch me in the face, you're willing or agreeing to this event occurring.
Of course, I wouldn't.
It's an odd use of the word agree.
I agree that I'm punching you in the face.
I mean, I just wanted to point that out, but it's not particularly important.
Right, and it's tough to find synonyms or redefine very basic terms, but, you know, it's consent on both sides, or for rape, it's consent on one side of the transaction and repulsion on the other side of the transaction.
And so the opposite of rape would actually be a thing.
It would be the opposite.
It would be switching them back and forth.
But I'm not sure, though, because technically the opposite of something must be the opposite of all of its elements.
Exactly.
And so, but then my question is, what is the opposite of a sexual act?
Because here you have sexual act, you have consent versus non-consent, and so switching consent and non-consent to both consents is only switching half the equation.
What is the opposite of a sexual act?
And so I always had two answers for that because I come from a background of belief and philosophy where I'm judging the moral actor.
I don't believe the actions itself or the physical phenomena is evil or good, but rather the moral actor.
And so when I define rape for morality purposes, I'm just defining it as the consent.
I know from a legal perspective, for practical considerations, you're not going to prosecute someone until an event has transpired.
So it also involves the physical.
But when I talk about morality, I'm not looking at physical phenomena.
I'm looking at moral actors and their mens rea or mental state and the consent or desires they've formed.
But let's treat it as us discussing a physical phenomena.
We have a sexual event taking place.
I... I don't think there is an opposite for that part.
Fundamentally, I have to say it's not right to make a moral judgment on the physical occurrence.
Hang on, hang on.
We've got to stay with this before we get on to the other thing of the actor versus the action.
Okay, so the opposite of rape for you is consensual sex because we can't really conceive of the opposite of a sexual act.
No, it's not consensual sex because you haven't gone from consent on one side, lack of consent on the other, to consent on both sides.
You've just switched the holders of the consent.
Oh, hang on.
Sorry, sorry.
Let me make sure I understand this.
I think I get it now.
Sorry if I was being dense.
So, Bob raping Sue, the opposite of that is Sue raping Bob.
No, that would be the opposite of that.
That's switching consent, isn't it?
No, because the consent from Bob was to have – well, we're switching the holder of the consent when you do that.
I'm talking about the definition of rape itself, the opposite of rape itself.
Okay, give me – I don't know what you're talking about.
Give me Bob and Sue.
Okay, so Bob rapes Sue.
What is the opposite of that in your formulation?
Okay, but when you say the opposite of Bob raping Sue is Sue raping Bob...
No, no, don't tell me what's incorrect.
You've got the formulation.
You're trying to explain something to me.
Just do the job and say, what is the opposite of Bob raping Sue?
The opposite of Bob raping Sue, there is no opposite of this physical occurrence.
The opposite of the physical occurrence, you're just switching to actors.
What I'm saying is the opposite of rape.
What the hell are we talking about?
I just said you can't define...
Hang on.
I just said you can't define...
Earlier I said you can't define the opposite of rape.
And then you've just led me through this whole thing where you're trying to define the opposite of rape and then I ask you what's the opposite of Bob raping Sue and you said there's no such thing.
You can't define it.
That's exactly what we just...
20 minutes ago I said that and you disagreed with me.
No, no, no.
It's the definition of rape.
What is the opposite of rape itself that...
And to get to what it is, like I said...
You had one consenting and one not consenting, right?
So you said that if you switch the consent...
So there's three possibilities, right?
Bob wants to have sex with Sue.
Sue doesn't want to have sex with Bob, right?
Or they both want to have sex with each other.
Or Sue wants to have sex with Bob, but Bob doesn't want to have sex with Sue.
There's no other possibilities.
No.
Or did neither of them want to have sex with each other?
They walk by on the street, in which case this is not in the category of sex at all, right?
Because you're not switching the...
You're not making the opposite of rape there.
You're just making one person the rapist or the other person the rapist.
Rape itself is going to be the desire to sexually penetrate and the repulsion of being sexually penetrated.
That's what rape is.
It's those two mental states of not wanting to be penetrated.
I can't handle this if you keep repeating the same definitions over and over and think you're adding to the conversation.
So we both agree that there's no such thing as the opposite of rape.
No, I'm about to give you the opposite right now.
Okay, this is your last chance, man, because I thought you'd just spent 20 minutes doing that, and if you didn't, but we're doing something else, but I'm happy to hear now.
Give me the opposite of rape.
The opposite of rape, when I say you switch consents, it goes from the desire to sexually penetrate to the repulsion of sexually penetrating, and then the repulsion of being sexually penetrated to the desire to be sexually penetrated.
That would be the opposite of rape.
The repulsion of sexually penetrating another And the desire to be sexually penetrated.
That would be the opposite of rape.
So going from fighting back to consenting.
Exactly.
And not being an active party.
That would be the opposite of rape.
I've taken the definition of rape and I've switched it around.
I was with you until you said not being an active party.
Then I don't know what you're talking about.
Well, when I say it's the consent to sexually penetrating, it becomes now the repulsion of sexually penetrating.
So the sexually penetrating, that action, it's gone from consenting to doing that action to not wanting to do that action.
I don't know.
Okay, so Bob raping Sue is Bob wanting to sexually penetrate Sue against her will and forcing himself upon her, right?
Yeah, the two mental states.
Okay, so give me the scenario...
Of the opposite of that with your definitions.
What happens?
Nothing happens because if neither one of them, if they're both embodying the opposite of rape, no one is actively performing a sex act.
They both want it.
They both desire it.
But they're not actively doing anything.
Earlier you said that we agreed that the opposite of rape, because we couldn't find the opposite of a sex act, you earlier said.
So the opposite of rape still had to involve sex.
We agreed that earlier.
And now you're saying it doesn't involve sex at all.
In which case, you know what, I'm done.
I've got to move on.
I appreciate the call, but I've got to move on.
Mike, who's on next?
Alright, up next is Thomas.
Thomas wrote in and said, If we were to develop the technology to keep people alive and youthful for eternity, would it be moral to do so?
On one hand, killing or refraining from saving someone else who you know you can save is immoral, so if the technology is there, we have to keep people alive, or at least until they want to die themselves.
On the other hand, keeping more of the same people alive would also mean that we would have to hold back on reproduction to not get overpopulated.
If we didn't get new individuals with new brains into this world, won't it have repercussions?
That's from Thomas.
Wow, Thomas, you know, as far as lists of moral problems in the world, you're kind of getting down to the footnotes there, aren't you?
I mean, it's a good question, but I mean, moral issues in the world, it ain't massively high, but okay, let's take a swing at it.
Who's the Wii in this situation?
I don't quite understand that.
Unless you're going to put video game consoles in charge of the planet, I don't know who the Wii is here.
Is it the state?
Is it an angry mob with pitchforks?
I mean, is it people with thumbs-down comments on YouTube?
Who is the Wii here?
Yeah, I knew it would be a very theoretical question.
That's okay.
I've also listened to a lot of your recent podcasts where you get a bit irritated at people for putting up these scenarios that are very hypothetical.
If we can get useful stuff out of it, I've got no problem with it.
Okay.
But tell me, who's the we?
You say, well, if we allow this or we don't, I mean, who's the we?
If there's a free market, a free society, and someone comes up with a procedure that probably involves being bathed in penguin sperm that keeps you young forever, trust me, I've tried.
Those little bastards are wriggly.
But it's consensual.
Then some people will buy it, and what's the problem?
Who's the "we" who's going to make people do or not do stuff?
Well, I think it's more of a...
I mean, if we go from the free market thing, I think in a completely free society, I think it would still bring up...
At some point, if we get overpopulated or at the brink of overpopulation, it would bring up some kind of moral dilemma.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.
Why would...
What's the overpopulation thing?
You mean if people don't die?
Yeah, exactly.
So if we can keep people alive...
Hang on.
The more technologically advanced a society gets in general, the lower its birth rate becomes.
So I'm not sure how we're going to crowd out the whole planet in this scenario.
Yeah, so...
Yeah, exactly.
So less birth rate, right?
And therefore...
So the point is that we would be, you know, in the extreme end of it, we would be all, you know, it would be the same people, you know, without never generating new people ever again.
You know, I don't know how to explain it.
Okay, so first of all, there would be accidents, right?
Some guy would be rock climbing.
I mean, I assume this doesn't make us immortal and invulnerable.
I mean, it's not like...
A god suit or something or typing those codes into doom, right?
So people would die.
But not from health issues.
Wait, so in this scenario, we live forever and we're perfectly immune from every conceivable disease.
Even if we shake hands from someone from North Africa, we don't explode.
Is that right?
Yeah, we imagine that the genetically modified technology would advance to a point where we could cure any Anything that would kill us by age at some point, right?
So we could keep living in a youthful body.
Okay, so it would be accidents that the airplane crashes or whatever it is.
Accidents would depopulate people from time to time.
But suicide would also do a lot, right?
Yeah, that's true.
I mean, a lot of people find life unbearable when it's relatively short.
I mean, if it went on and on and on, I mean, God.
I mean, can you imagine?
A lot of people who, you know, they're depressed enough, they're like, well, mortality can't Come soon enough.
Or, you know, as Hamlet said, I wish that the Almighty had not fixed his cannon against self-slaughter because he wants to kill himself so much.
So suicide would take some people out.
Accidents would take some people out.
And, yeah, I guess new people would be born.
But, I mean, listen, we've got that kind of technology.
We've got Mars colonies.
We're going to other solar systems and colonizing and terraforming other planets.
If we've got that kind of technology to live forever and never get sick, trust me, we're not running out of living space in this universe as a whole, right?
No.
No, I mean, yeah, I guess...
I guess I am...
Oh dear, did I stump you?
Completely?
Can I tell you something?
I love you.
I love you.
You know why?
Because you didn't just come up with another answer immediately to keep the conversation going.
Like, you were genuinely and honestly stumped there.
I can't tell you how much I respect that.
That is an honest-to-God moment of authenticity, and I hugely appreciate you sharing with it.
Not just because of the last caller, but, you know.
Oh, thank you so much.
That means a lot coming from you.
Now, why, if you don't mind me asking, why are you mulling this stuff over?
Not that it's bad, I'm just curious.
No, it came from a discussion I had with a couple of friends and I was, you know, I'm very, you know, pro having children and like having a family and a family and I was discussing this with some friends who were more like putting across this point that, you know, What's the point?
We can just genetically keep ourselves alive, so why even reproduce?
They must really hate the welfare state.
I mean, they're really strongly opposed to the welfare state because they're concerned about overpopulation, which means they're also concerned about Catholicism.
They're also concerned about foreign aid, for sure, because foreign aid, of course, props up a lot of lives of the Third World.
So they must be very, very strongly against government intervention that causes more and more people to breed, particularly those who can't afford children.
They must be incredibly strongly against and activate – like real activists against the welfare state.
So give me their – Facebook pages or their websites where they're just so against things like deficit spending, right?
Because that puts a lot of hands, money into the hands of the poor who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford a lot of kids.
Foreign aid, they must be huge.
I mean, they're really committed to overpopulation.
I'm sure they're not just talking to your balls.
They're talking to balls in politically incorrect circles as well.
So just help me, you know, and if you don't have it now, just ask them for it.
I'll help publicize their information about how much they are against the welfare state and deficit financing and foreign aid and all the other stuff.
That is really causing overpopulation, not you thinking about having kids.
Yeah, well, I know one of them is basically a communist.
He doesn't want to admit it, but oh my god, we have had so many discussions about me being a pro-free market, and he's basically a Marxist, but even when I pointed out to him, he's like, no, he doesn't want to be put into a box, but yeah, that's a different story.
Oh, I'd like to put him in a box.
No, he's a Marxist, right?
He's just a Marxist.
People got all these big fancy words for, I'm an asshole.
I'm an inconsistent, class-baiting, pretentious, waffle-bag, crap-weasel asshole.
Oh, but that's too honest.
It's too much truth in advertising.
I'm going to call myself a Marxist.
Oh, well, as a Marxist, you must believe this.
Well, don't box me in, man.
I don't want to be bound by any specific ideology.
Just, you know, your genes and my genes are fighting because you're K and I'm R. So I'm going to use weasel R-words to convince K-people not to reproduce so that nobody gets in the way of me and my prey.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Do you really...
Oh my god.
Friends?
Friends?
Are you kidding me?
What?
This is what you're really calling up to talk about, right?
Yeah, I mean, the funny thing is that I mostly play music with him, but we don't really see each other outside of that.
But it was just, you know, one time we went to a bar and we discussed these things and I just saw a completely different side of him that I never knew because I only play music with him.
Wow, socialist musician, whatever next.
Yeah, exactly.
Whatever next.
I want to pursue my dream.
I'm very unlikely to succeed, so I'd really like it if everybody could be forced to give me groupies of cheddar.
I mean, there's so many things in Denmark recently.
Please, God, tell me he plays drums.
No, he plays the guitar, actually.
Tell him to switch to drums.
Everybody must conform to my irrational prejudices.
That is essential.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Our drummer is also, like, he says he's a socialist, but he acts very case-elective.
Like, he has a girlfriend, what's called, when you're getting married, a fiancé?
Yeah.
And he's, like, very, like, I think he's very, you know, he's my age, like, 24, and, like, he's becoming...
Wait, are you saying everyone who's got a fiancé is case-elected?
No, no, no, no.
I mean, have you heard of one B. Clinton?
Yeah, okay.
B. to bite him off with a stick and he'll still get through.
Yeah, yeah.
But, I mean, compared to a lot of my other socialist friends, he's like...
Oh my god, please.
This is like, I've got to stage an intervention here.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
This is because...
My socialist friends?
Yeah, that's because this is Denmark and most young people at least in the Copenhagen area are left-wing in some way or another and I'm one of the few Right-wing, who is also a musician.
And I remember once I talked with somebody, I was like, oh, this great concert you had.
I was like, yeah, okay, I'm anarcho-capitalist.
And I was like, what?
But you're a musician!
People don't get that.
Yeah, exactly.
Right.
So, I guess in Denmark, your choice is communists or migrants, right?
This is your big range.
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know what to tell you, man, but...
You know, it's impossible to be surrounded by the assholes without smelling a bit bad, right?
I mean, you get stanky just in the...
And listen, I know.
I was just talking about this with someone the other day about why I left the art world.
I mean, people have seen me rip off monologues, and I'm pretty decent at voices, and I could rip off an acting gig or two, but the problem is then you have to spend your life with actors.
You know, and directors.
And, oh man, maybe there's a sort of crust of competence you need to burrow through or something, but...
God almighty, I just...
I couldn't.
I couldn't do it.
I couldn't.
I just couldn't do it.
You know, maybe at the top end, you know, maybe Spielberg is a great capitalist.
I don't know.
I mean, maybe at the top end, these guys all get the business and have left all of the socialists in the dust.
But man, that is a big crusty layer of entitlement you've got to burrow through to get to the competent people.
And I just didn't have the stomach for it.
The art world is, you know, love art.
Artists, for the most part, Are unbelievably hyper-competitive and ridiculously insecure and parasitical douchebags.
You know, some exceptions.
Yeah, but I know what you mean.
I think you need to be a bit...
Crazy to be a good musician or something, because I feel sometimes maybe I should become a socialist or a left-wing just to get more success in the music business, because I'm still just an amateur, so I don't know, maybe that's what gives you success.
No, you're still thinking like a kid learning how to walk by climbing up his mommy's skirts.
Listen, listen, listen.
If you want to be a successful musician, Non-socialist artists, you should thank your lucky stars that there are so many socialists out there.
Can I tell you why?
Yes, please.
Because you have to be so much better than them that it is going to spur you on enormously.
Listen, do you think my show would be as good as it is If I didn't have the atheist, anarchist, free market, capitalist, voluntary family shit to get over.
I mean, listen, if I decided to go into politics, I'd have been great.
Evil, but great, right?
Because, I mean, I've got the look, I've got the verbal skills, I'm comfortable speaking to countless people in public, I'm funny, you know.
I could have, right...
And if I had taken the easy route, or yeah, if I'd gone out to become a comedian or whatever, right?
I mean, if I had decided to not have integrity, I wouldn't need to be nearly this good.
So, do you know why musicians fail?
Musicians fail because they don't wake up and start writing music.
They don't wake up and practice.
They don't make it their whole life.
The people who fail are the people who dabble for reasons of vanity.
And there was a woman who changed my life in college.
Now, I'd left theater school.
I was still doing a lot of acting.
I did like three plays in my first year at Miguel, which was my sort of third year of college.
Or fifth year, I guess, if you count theater school, almost.
But I was torn because I really enjoyed writing and I really enjoyed acting.
And I said, I can't decide.
And she said, well, what do you do when you have free time?
I said, well, I go and write.
And she's like, well, isn't that your answer?
Are you practicing sword fighting?
Are you practicing accents?
Are you learning monologues?
Are you studying acting classes?
No, you're going to write.
And that's what I did.
I wrote And I wrote, and I wrote, and I wrote, and I wrote.
And people say, well, boy, you can really think on your feet.
It's like, well, I've been arguing myself for 40 years, so I'd hope so, right?
Steph, your English is really good.
You've only been speaking it for 49 years.
It's like, yeah, I'm good with that stuff.
And what's great about you not fitting in To the socialist commie scum-sucking herd of musicians is that you know that you are going to have to be so good to make it that it's going to spur you to your very best, which is an incentive that these fuckwads don't have.
They can just coast because they're going with the flow.
Where do you get your strongest muscles?
Through resistance.
Do you have resistance as a capitalist musician?
Why, yes, you do.
Do I have resistance as an atheist, anarchist, voluntary family, peaceful parent?
Like, have I not alienated in successive waves every single group that's liked me briefly?
He's one of us!
He's not one of us!
I mean, that's natural.
That's called having integrity.
Because I'm not guided by the acceptance of groups, I'm guided by principles.
Sorry libertarians, spanking is a violation of the non-aggression principle.
And you're assholes for not working on that, which you could do rather than, why don't you do the truth about Rand Paul?
Because he just left the race, and I knew he was going to leave the race, and it's not that complicated to figure it out.
Biology of unicorns, right?
So, the fact that you have resistance, right?
The atheists loved me until they got that I was anti-radical feminism, An anti-state.
The anti-statists loved me until they found out I was an atheist.
Right?
Yeah.
And so, all these people, the Bitcoin people loved me until, and the men's rights people loved me until, right?
And that's what makes me better and better and better because I am never tempted to sit and swim with the current because it's always an iceberg coming down at me They've got to swim like hell to evade.
That's what keeps me strong.
That's what keeps me improving.
And frankly, that's what keeps me interested.
Which, when you're very intelligent, is the rarest commodity of all.
That's what keeps me interested.
To break new ground, to continue to extend the principles, to challenge myself, to challenge others.
That's what keeps me lean and mean.
You know, there's a principle in exercise, which is mix it up, right?
If you keep doing the same exercises over and over again, your body gets used to it and the value diminishes.
So you've got to screw your body up.
You've got to start doing stuff you've never done before, right?
If you've done ballet, start doing burpees or whatever it is, right?
And that's a basic reality.
And then, you know, people also liked me for my free market views and still I start bringing up ethnicity and IQ. And so on, right?
And people liked me for my anti-political stance until I start talking about Donald Trump.
And then they don't like me.
I've jumped the shark!
Whee!
Even though, of course, I explained very clearly what my reasoning is behind that.
Nobody rebutts the reasoning.
He made me feel good, and then he made me feel bad.
So I'm going to run away hurling insults in my wake.
It's so predictable.
I mean, it's so...
And, you know, I also surprised myself in talking to more religious people and in recognizing the common values and having...
People who I respected who were religious and listening and, you know, I got some respect for, I will not say all religions, and I certainly won't say all branches of Christianity, but Christianity by once a native home, well, I made my way back to having some respect for it, which then pisses off the atheists, right?
So, and I'm not trying to do this, like I'm not, I thought about this, like I thought, well, am I just recreating some rejection, Simon the Boxer thing or whatever, right?
No, you just keep getting smarter.
Well, I just, you know, if somebody can tell me how I'm being inconsistent, you know, I'm not saying go vote for Donald Trump.
I'm not saying any of the stuff that people often describe.
They just like to escalate because they're angry at me, right?
They're getting dopamine from me because they can bask in a smart person agreeing with them, which makes them feel smarter and makes them feel like they've become wiser without actually having to do the work.
I mean, I give them dopamine because I'm smart and they agree with me.
So, yay, I'm right and I don't have to earn it.
I can just travel in the wake of this guy and bounce along pulled by his rope, right?
And then I do something they don't like.
They don't listen to reason.
They don't ask why it is.
They don't call up and say, I think you've made a mistake and here's where your reasoning is incorrect.
Let me help you out brother to brother as you've helped me out.
No.
They don't do that.
What they do is they react like any addict who gets their substance of choice taken away.
They lash out and storm off.
You're not giving me my dopamine!
You're a hypocrite!
You're a mean guy!
Bye!
Slam!
Unsubbed!
I love it.
You know, when the really awful fodder leaves your dinner party, do you come back?
No, just open the windows.
People don't want to get challenged.
Right.
So people, you know, there's successive groups of people who glom on to what I'm doing and love it and feel great and like they feel, woo, smart guy agrees with me.
I must be right.
Yay.
I don't have to reason it out for myself because I can just, smart guy does it.
Oh, smart guy disagrees.
I don't like what this smart guy is saying.
He's bad.
You know, it's like, it's like the guy who doesn't have any money goes up to the drug dealer and Man, this drug dealer is my best friend because he's going to give me the drug and I love this guy and I'll sit there and watch some Cheech and Chong movies with him and maybe we'll even watch a Seth Rogen comedy or two because he's the best guy ever.
And then the guy says, I'm not going to give you any drugs.
Fuck you!
Storm off!
People think they're so original.
They're as original as last year's 45 record.
Just a little worse for the wear, but it's the same damn song.
And people think that they're so surprising, and people also think that their disapproval is meaningful.
I hate to laugh, because I mean, it is kind of tragic, but I stand with principles, and I stand with practicalities.
You know, be, oh, Donald Trump, he loves Donald Trump.
I've said over and over, this guy smashes the media so we can have an intelligent conversation without hysteria.
Like I just did an interview today with Jason Richwine.
He may agree that the media is not helping human beings on the planet have productive conversations.
They're all just a bunch of, oh, you know what he said about you that was totally mean?
Would you stand for that?
I'd never stand for that.
You go over there and you tell him what you think of him because all these things he said about you were totally mean and he's backstabbing you and he's lying about you and he's setting up stories about you and he's turning everyone against you.
Are you just going to sit there and take that?
I wouldn't if I was in your situation.
You go over there and all they're doing is just ginning up problems.
And so, yeah, everybody loves me until they don't.
And then they think this has something to do with me.
No.
It's just that they haven't earned the stability of principles.
They're still following people.
And following people makes you intensely vulnerable.
And I know that because I followed Ayn Rand for 20 years.
It made me intensely vulnerable to finding out negative things about Ayn Rand.
And it took a long time.
And I don't begrudge these people for their upsets.
I totally get that.
I totally get that.
I understand.
I sympathize.
It's not about me any more than my thing was about Ayn Rand.
Ayn Rand, if she was around, would have slapped me upside the head and said, stop following me and think for yourself.
She'd have been right.
She'd have been right.
I hope she would have said that otherwise, right?
And so, you always know, like when I respect someone and then someone does something that is surprising to me, I don't mean like Outwardly irrational, like, Trump is Hitler!
When someone does something that is surprising to me, I am curious.
Like, when there's a thinker I respect, and then they come up with something that's like, I've never heard that before, that's weird, that's unsettling, that's alarming.
I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to allow the...
Like, I pay my debts.
I pay my debts.
And what that means, if somebody has proven themselves reliable in the past, the moment they say something I disagree with or is startling or surprising to me or even offensive to me, I don't just run away.
I don't just run away and call them...
I don't deny my entire experience with that person.
And so when people have built up credibility with me and they say things that are surprising to me, Or even when I've heard negative things about people, I will go and be curious about what they have to say.
I mean, I've heard many negative things about Ann Coulter, started to read one of her books.
I'm like, she is funny, and she is smart, and she is a hard worker, and she does her own research, and she is an original thinker, and she is startling.
And yes, she is religious, and yes, she is highly skeptical of evolution, and she's got some good arguments.
You know, she's not an idiot.
Phyllis Schlafly, same kind of thing.
Margaret Thatcher, still a statist but has some very intelligent things to say about socialism.
Noam Chomsky, a leftist who's got some fantastic things to say about Middle East conflicts and anarchism and so on.
And so I pay my debts and it is very hard for people, we all want to offload the burden Of being ourselves to someone else, despite that being such a foundational paradox.
We all want to have other people do our thinking for us.
And it's very tempting.
It's very tempting.
And it may be even a necessary phase of intellectual development.
I don't know.
Maybe you've got to be wax on, wax off before you can kick people from the top of a pier.
I don't know.
But it is a very small start to a long process to follow someone.
And, you know, people I've known for years.
I've known them for years.
I've helped them either directly or indirectly, and then I say something that they don't like, and they're just gone.
Angry, bitter, slam the door, storm off.
It's like, didn't I earn any respect in the time that we knew each other, directly or indirectly?
No!
Okay, then I was just a drug dealer, and I'm sad that you're gone, but I'm glad that you're gone.
Because I don't want to be anyone's drug dealer.
I don't want to substitute my thinking for anyone else's thinking.
This is why I resolutely these first callers tonight.
Well, so what I should do is this, this, and this?
Nope.
Not going to tell you.
Because you listen to this show, I'm going to grant you intelligence, the respect of intelligence.
So you've got to think it through for yourself.
I'm just giving you some parameters.
Right?
It's like those, when you go to learn dance, I don't know if you've ever seen it.
You know, you're a young guy, what the hell do you know about learning dance?
Right?
But But you have these, they're footprints, right?
They're painted footprints on the Arthur Studios, right?
They're painted footprints and you put your foot here and then you put your foot there and they've got left and right, different colors and you step through these things, right?
And that's the beginning, right?
And that's a long way from going up and doing some interpretive dance on the fly, right?
But you, I mean, you start, I guess, with that foot in the footprint stuff, but you've got to graduate from that.
And so, yeah, I mean, you see this regularly when you're any kind of original thinker or consistent thinker or thinker with integrity in any kind of public sphere, is that people love you when you're giving them the dopamine of pulling them in the wake of what they already agree with, when you are feeding people's dopamine-based confirmation-biased neurological system.
Oh, pellet drip!
Oh, pellet drip!
Oh, that's good!
Oh, wait, no pellet!
Ah, I hate that guy!
Right?
And I guess people have to suffer through that kind of dependency on others.
People shouldn't get angry at me.
It just simply shows that they're vulnerable.
They should not be so vulnerable to me.
Let's say I do make some big mistake.
Maybe I have.
I don't know that I'm not aware of, but let's say I do make some big mistake.
People should not be so vulnerable to me because they should be thinking for themselves and not be dependent upon me and they should be able to survive my mistakes without thinking that there's something Fundamentally wrong with me or with reason or whatever.
That kind of stuff, right?
I mean, Christians do this all the time.
Do you think every Christian thinks every priest is perfect or the pope is always perfect?
No, of course not.
They maintain their belief system nonetheless with far less reason than rationalists do.
So, when it comes to you, you have been given, my friend, a great opportunity In not being able to be pulled behind anybody's wake.
Right?
So it's more of an advantage for me, the way you see it.
It's your only chance of success.
Because you're like, oh, I wish I was a socialist so I could do better in the music scene.
Fuck that.
You're one of the cool guys.
Fuck that.
Be a capitalist so you can take over the music scene.
No, seriously.
Because you're like, well, shit, I can't make it because I'm just some run-of-the-mill socialist everyone agrees with.
You know, it's like that old ad ash.
You can only sleep your way to the middle.
You know, oh, she slept her way to the top, you know, or he slept, you know, whatever, right?
You can only sleep your way to the middle.
You can only conform yourself to the average.
God, who wants to be average?
Average.
Average color is beige.
Can't remember it at all.
An average book is something you'll never remember.
An average movie.
I'm looking at you 13 hours.
An average movie is something you barely remember the next day, except for a speech about I'm missing my kids and dying here on a building in a city I don't care about, in a war I don't understand, in a country that means nothing to me.
Hey!
Welcome to U.S. foreign policy.
That was a great speech.
The rest of the film was a noisy mess.
But anyway.
Average.
No.
You see, average is the worst of all worlds because if you're mediocre, at least you get a lot of time off, right?
If you're mediocre, you can have a lot of hobbies.
You know, if you're just some mediocre worker, you go to work, you show up, you punch a clock, you go, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right.
But if you're average, you got a lot of responsibilities, you got to work really hard, you're managing those below you, you're propping up those above you, and it sucks, I think.
I've been middle management.
It's really not great at all.
Oh, I've got lots of responsibilities but very little authority.
Excellent.
That's why they have to keep the cold pistol behind glass.
But, yeah, why would you want to aim for the middle?
Aim for the top.
Aim for the top.
Landing in the middle is worse than aiming for the top and missing completely.
Because if you aim for the top and you miss completely, at least you have the honor of the journey.
You know, and it's a cliche, go big or go home.
I sort of hate that because it doesn't really mean anything, but...
There's a vanity in mediocrity or aiming for the middle.
And the vanity is, I know what I'm capable of, and so I'm just not going to aim that high because I'm just not really capable of doing better.
And it's like, what nonsense?
Who the hell...
How the hell do you know what you're capable of?
Like, you as a musician.
You could be the greatest fucking thing ever.
Now, if you work, like, seriously work.
Like, holy shit work.
Like...
Work like Mike works.
And like I often pretend to.
But no, like if you seriously work.
You know, we're on show 3,200 here.
Plus, what, seven books?
Work at it.
Really, really work at it.
And you could be the greatest thing.
And if you hold back on it, you're somehow saying, well, I know what I'm capable of and what I'm not capable of.
Bullshit you do.
Bullshit you do.
I didn't.
Other people don't.
Assume that you're capable of great things.
Have the audacity of being humble about your potential.
Being humble about your potential means I'm not going to prejudge my potential.
I'm going to work as hard as I can, as concentratedly as I can, in as focused and fun and productive a manner as I can, and I wonder where I'm going to end up.
I wonder where I'm going to end up if I assume that I'm capable of anything.
That's called having the humility of not prejudging Your potential.
Because you don't know.
I don't know.
I may do many very greater things in my life going forward.
I don't know.
I have not reached the edge or the end or the limit of what I can do in this field.
I don't think I'm even close.
I'm always nagging Mike.
Not nagging Mike.
Well, yes.
But also, I'm also saying to Mike a lot and to other people...
I've got to do better.
I've got to go further.
Maybe I can do better jokes.
Maybe I can do more freeform stuff.
Maybe I can be more assertive.
Maybe I can be more gentle.
Maybe I'm like constantly, I don't know.
But I want to be the Shakespeare of self-expression.
I mean, Shakespeare didn't say I want to be a dime store novelist or I want to write great ad copy for Rice Krispies.
Why not be the Shakespeare of music?
Why not be the Mozart of modernity?
Because then I'm a big fan of don't leave anything on the table.
Bet.
Bet big.
Bet big.
Why not?
Especially when you're young.
God.
Especially when you're young.
Bet big.
Bet.
Bet as big as you can.
I said this.
And if I fail?
And if you fail, what's great is you'll have no regrets whatsoever.
There's nothing that is more failure than Or that leaves the taste of failure more in your mouth than regret.
I mean, I was one out of a thousand people who earns their way into theatre school through a whole series of grueling auditions.
You've got to come up with your own material.
I had to submit my writing.
Now, I could have not gone.
I was doing an English degree.
But it was never a question to not go.
Of course you go.
Maybe I'll win an Oscar.
Maybe I'll be the Marlon Brando of this generation.
That's why I went.
I didn't actually like acting that much.
I mean, I had too many of my own words to chew on other people's usually inferior language.
And I felt, you know, I'd be cast in plays.
And I was like, this is not a play whose message I really want to get behind.
You don't really have much control.
And I wanted to write.
And I wrote a lot and gave that a shot and produced my own play in downtown Toronto, funded it, casted it, directed it, the whole thing.
It's great.
Loved it.
It was the adaptation of Turgenev's Fathers and Sons, a 19th century Russian novel that I thought was fantastic.
And it did well.
Did well.
And then I was done with theater.
You know, it's like, it's not for me.
It's too collaborative.
You know, it's too dependent on too many other people.
And as you know, right, it's not like there are a lot more capitalists in the theater world than there are in the music world.
Maybe one less, I don't know.
But I don't look back and say, oh, if only I'd gone to theater school, maybe I'd be picking up that Oscar right now.
Maybe I'd be a world-famous screenwriter or director or actor, movie mogul, whatever, right?
Or...
I had the opportunity to co-found a software company.
I always loved computers, always loved coding.
And I did it, and I gave it my all.
And I sometimes would stay up two nights straight to finish things.
And got to really express my creativity in the software world and built some fantastic stuff, which I'm proud of even now, and built a company which is still running.
Still running.
So the bottom line is about, you know, not regretting Like, that's also what you've been talking about in other podcasts.
I've heard you speak a lot about your cancer treatment.
It made you realize that it's all about, you know, not ending up with a feeling of regret, right?
Like, I could have done this and that.
Yeah.
It's called closure.
Closure is when you've given it your all.
And you've made your choice with the information you've gotten.
And, you know, you've got to be nimble and sensitive.
And you have to, you know, people say, well, why aren't you saying the same stuff you were saying 10 years ago?
It's because I got 10 years more information.
Why are you talking about migrants?
Because we don't have time for peaceful parenting.
Right?
We did.
I thought.
Now we don't.
Things change, and you have to adapt to the circumstances, otherwise...
You're a guy still trying to sell floppy disks at Comdex.
You could do it, but they'd fail, right?
It's a misallocation of resources.
Events change underfoot and you have to be nimble.
Why are you running that way?
Well, that's where the guy hit the ball, so I've got to go there, right?
This is where events have changed things, so now we don't have time for multi-generational change because geopolitical events have overtaken things.
Yeah.
I think it's very true what you're talking about that, you know, resistance or like pressure from outside makes It makes you stronger.
You have something to measure yourself up against.
I also heard you talk with, I think it was a German guy, thinking about doing a similar podcast like yours in German.
And I've also been thinking about doing a Danish podcast in a similar vein as yours, because especially in our countries, I think it's very unexplored territory.
Please do.
Please do and do it to music or whatever it is that's going to turn you on intellectually.
Please do.
Listen.
I also tried to write some lyrics that the other band members weren't quite as fun of.
Be the band.
Write such great music that you could hire.
There's Taylor Swift and then there's some guys behind her making noise.
Be the guy.
Be the guy who hires the studio musicians, pay them well, and you can give a fuck what they think politically.
That's what I mean.
Be in charge.
Be a leader.
And leave a fucking mark on this world.
Leave a mark on this world.
I almost respect the people who commit great immoralities more than the people who vanish.
Morally, I prefer the people who vanish.
Because they left the mark?
In terms of commitment?
Yeah.
Evil people are an opportunity to strengthen your muscles of virtue.
And just leave a mark.
This hiding out life, this life of a little new mammal mouse beneath the feet of dinosaurs, gotta stay out of sight, gotta lay low, gotta stay out of sight, gotta lay low.
Jesus, what a nightmare.
What a cowardly existence, and what an existence that invites evil.
Evil does not survive on evil, it survives on compliance, right?
And to all the people in Europe and Canada, in America, in England, All those people.
For 10 years, I've been saying, got to end the welfare state.
Got to end the welfare state.
Got to reduce the size and power of the state.
Got to take on the gynocracy of big government female voting.
Got to stand up for men.
Got to push back against family courts.
Got to reduce government spending.
Got to rein in the deficit.
Well, people didn't listen.
And that's why the migrants are there.
The migrants are there from North Africa because people didn't listen to what I had to say and to what other people had to say.
If there was no welfare state, there'd be no migrants.
But people now, they're afraid to leave their house.
They don't want to make that connection.
Why are you afraid to leave your house?
Because you didn't listen to smarter and better people who told you exactly what was going to happen.
The welfare state corrupts.
Deficit financing corrupts.
Central banking, fiat money currency printing corrupts.
Bureaucracy is corrupt.
The government doesn't listen to you.
You are livestock.
You are tax livestock.
You are less than a serf because at least the aristocrat personally profited from the serf.
You are just a number in a stall.
And classical liberals have been saying this all for 150 years.
Libertarians have been saying it for 60 years.
I've been saying it for 10 years.
And people just don't fucking listen.
They don't listen.
And not only do they not listen, but we're bad people for bringing it up.
Race and IQ matter.
Yeah, just look at Sweden.
Yeah, race and IQ matter.
Race and IQ matter.
People who deny you facts deny you life.
Which is why this poor woman got stabbed to death in the migrant center.
The police went on the TV to talk about their sympathy for the murderer.
Well, he was a 15-year-old boy.
Who knows what he'd been through to make him this way.
Ah, you see, but it's all about sympathy.
Sympathy.
Sympathy.
Sympathy for the migrants.
You know, it's a war-torn country.
Well, yeah.
Libertarians, anarchists, volunteers have been railing against Railing against the warfare welfare state for decades.
Railing against this primal evil of theft at home and violence abroad.
Yeah, violate the non-aggression principle.
Uncountable bad things are going to happen.
It's like opening Pandora's box without the gem of hope at the bottom.
And not only did the people not listen to the warnings, but they exauriated the warners.
They heaped insult and abuse upon those trying to save them.
And if Europeans had listened and had challenged their governments, had opposed an aggressive foreign policy in very real ways, and had started to ostracize the statists, As I suggested, lo, those many years ago and for which I was roundly condemned from just about every corner.
If people had taken a serious stand and provoked these issues to public discussion, you know, as long as you conform to people, they don't care about what you say.
If it doesn't have any actual negative effects on them.
If it's just like a minor annoyance, oh yeah, you're into that anarcho-capitalist crap and As long as you don't actually act in any tangible, practical way on your beliefs, people don't care about what you think.
But if you act on them and you say, look, you are promoting aggression and violence against me, that is unacceptable to me in my relationships.
If enough people had done that, it would have been like the Donald Trump thing bringing up the immigration.
Like at least there's some glimmer of a conversation about it.
Yeah, I think you're way ahead in North America in general.
I think there's a lot to be worked with in Europe.
But that's also why there's a lot of possibilities for such a podcast or music with such lyrics.
I think I should see the potential in the lack of it, actually.
Yeah.
The migrants are going to fail.
Incompatibilities at every conceivable level, the migrants are going to fail.
And Everyone is going to blame white males, patriarchy, racism, and just massive amounts of social conflict are going to erupt, which is, I think, sort of the point.
Fundamentally, nobody can imagine this is going to succeed.
Who's got half a brain?
And so, while you guys are further behind, in some ways, you will be, I think, galloping past North America in terms of...
Catching up and surpassing because the disaster is going to be that much more evident.
And there is also a funny thing too, which is that when you have that much of a fifth column inside the country, you really can't wage war against a foreign power.
So in a weird way, it might pull back on some of the European and North American imperialism in the Middle East.
But anyway, that's a bit of an abstract way of putting this thing, which is you should welcome...
It's a tough thing to do because we all want maximum rewards for minimum effort.
That's why we have remote controls and TV rather than hand puppets.
But...
The view from where I am is that that which does not kill you makes you stranger.
It's just one little letter change.
But it is the things that push back against me, that the resistance, that that is what strengthens you.
That is what makes you perfect.
Or at least as perfect as you can be in an imperfect world.
And...
The fact that you said, I just want to be able to get along with everyone or be like them, so you could get what?
You could be in a bar band?
No.
No, write an opera.
Write something great.
Push yourself.
Test yourself.
Don't stop working.
And leave a mark.
And that doesn't mean you have to write an opera or build a skyscraper.
You can leave a mark in the hearts and minds of those around you.
You can leave a heart as a stay-at-home mom or a stay-at-home dad, but leave a mark.
Be passionate.
And we men of the mind, we men and women of the mind, we blame the world for not listening.
And I do, too.
I mean, they are an annoying bunch of pompous, self-ignorant sheep a lot of times.
I get that, you know.
But to some degree, to me, it's forgive them for they know not what they do.
And we just have to try harder and live with more integrity and blaze light even brighter through whatever medium we can.
We cannot give up on the world.
You know, I've seen lots of comments on my migrant videos of guys saying, well, the women have been denigrating men for two generations and ripping them off.
Calling them sexist chauvinistic pigs.
So, good riddance.
I'm going to enjoy watching what happens.
Yeah, that's not good.
That's not good.
The patient is not deceased, and only the cowardly doctor walks away when there's still life and hope left.
And...
It is up to us to redouble our efforts.
And why?
You say, well, why should I? Well, you don't have to.
But trust me, what's required of us is far less than what was required of those who handed us the world we enjoy so much.
You know, if you appreciate the gifts of liberty, if you appreciate the gifts of freedom of association, freedom of speech, those that are left, if you appreciate the gifts of wealth, well, people had to fight a hell of a lot harder and face a lot more suffering than we ever will For what was handed to us, and if you appreciate those things, you have an obligation to hand it forward.
Don't be the arsehole neighbor who borrows someone's lawnmower, treats it badly, lets it rust, then hands it back and says, what?
You know, we borrowed something.
We've got to pay it forward.
We borrowed something called freedom.
We inherited something called freedom.
Don't squander it.
The moral capital our ancestors accumulated.
Yeah, the women didn't know what they were doing.
They were lied to as well.
You know, a lot of feminists, a lot of media, a lot of people lied to.
It's the foundation of evil, this falsehood.
So expose them to something better.
Get them better information.
And that in combination with the worsening environment is the best chance that people have to make better decisions.
But if people in the past had given up We'd all still be slaves.
And if you enjoy not being a slave, then stack up and do something better.
So you have been given an opportunity, the opportunity of resistance, which part of you doesn't want.
But if you embrace and accept it, it will be your greatest glory.
It's like an exercise.
But I thought, Steph, if I can just ask you if we could wrap up the initial question in case I'm going to play this for my friends.
Wait, you're going to play this to your friends and call them assholes?
Come on, man.
What are you doing?
No, maybe not that part.
What are you doing?
If you want to break up with your friends, do it.
But don't have me break up with your friends.
No, no, no.
Not that part.
But maybe just the question about...
So you don't see it as the way that people...
Not dying from health issues anymore would not change anything a huge lot.
I mean, you think that people doing suicide and people committing suicide and people who die from falling off a cliff or a car accident, that that would balance things out?
No, we'll have other planets to explore by then.
There's going to be no shortage of room.
Okay, so at that point we would advance so far away from the Earth that it wouldn't be an issue.
Yeah, if you've got the technology to live forever and you're immune to disease, do you don't think we've figured out how to build a sealed chamber on the Moon or something?
Or how to terraform Mars or Venus or find some other solar system to explore?
Well, not as long as the state is in charge of it, I think.
Well, okay, but if the state is in charge of things, we don't have to worry about great technology like living forever and being immune to disease because it'll never pass FDA approval because it doesn't give enough profit to psychiatrists.
Fair point.
Touche.
All right.
Yeah.
Well, thanks.
And listen, when you start creating your great work, send it our way.
Wake up tomorrow and start writing music and practicing your instrument.
Aim for the top.
Anything else is a betrayal of what you could do.
I think that's really how you should see opportunities.
You also saw a vacuum for the things that you do and you basically just filled it out and I think I should also see opportunities in the vacuums that are in my part of the world.
I saw a sickening compartmentalization.
That people were applying the non-aggression principle to economics but not to parenting.
And people were applying ostracism in economic boycotts but not in personal situations of immorality.
That people wanted voluntarism in business but not in the family.
I just saw a ridiculous levels of compartmentalization.
And the purpose of philosophy is to break down those compartments.
The purpose of philosophy is...
To universalize, which means you don't get to have these standards here and the opposite standards over there.
You have to universalize.
That's the whole point of philosophy.
Science doesn't say one thing about one rock and an entirely opposite thing about a different rock.
It universalizes.
And so I wouldn't say that I, you know, saw...
I just saw that these principles were not being applied universally.
And those who had self-knowledge tended to be on the socialist side or had more self-knowledge.
Those who had left self-knowledge tend to be on the economic side and political liberty side and...
Why not unite the two so that we all have something to offer?
That's true.
Subsidy of bad corporations.
Subsidy of corporations is really bad, but subsidies of bad people with time, attention, and money is somehow good.
It's just those kinds of things, right?
Yeah.
All right.
I'm going to close off the show, but I really, really appreciate your call.
Keep us posted about your thrilling adventures.
Thank you very much.
Thanks, everyone, of course, so much for...
Giving us the resources to do what we do.
You know, we are constantly upgrading to get better equipment, better mics, better studio equipment, faster bandwidth, more computing power, everything that we need to create the best timely, right?
You can create the best.
We could do a five-year documentary.
But the best timely way of getting this information out, we just passed 80 million views on YouTube.
I just actually looked during the show.
We've done 25 terabytes of downloads in the last 28 days for podcasts.
We have done 25.
So we're basically half of Netflix.
That's really?
Uh-huh.
Sheesh.
Uh-huh.
All right.
So we're going to go back to 8K audio downloads.
This may get a little AM radio on you, but 25 terabytes.
Uh-huh.
Okay.
So we may have a server bill coming up if you want to help.
That's...
Oh, my God.
Okay.
Okay.
We're either going to get some donations or I'm going to put my kidney on eBay.
But yeah, so 25 terabytes.
That's astonishing.
That's astounding.
I remember passing one terabyte.
Anyway, so yeah, we're doing very well for this challenging level of a show for people.
You know, it would not surprise me if soon we're past 200 million downloads of videos and podcasts and that is based on what you're doing.
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