Dec. 20, 2015 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:51:08
3155 A Family In Crisis - Call In Show - December 18th, 2015
Question: My daughter moved away a few years ago to try having a relationship with her mother and to get a fresh start. She is now a young woman and a mother of two. I have a strong desire to ride in and rescue her, however, I do not want to rob her of growth from her struggle. Can you delineate between supportive parent and parental white knighting?Freedomain Radio is 100% funded by viewers like you. Please support the show by signing up for a monthly subscription or making a one time donation at: http://www.freedomainradio.com/donate
This was a father-to-father conversation I have with a listener.
His daughter, who's grown, has moved away.
She's now a young woman, a mother of two.
And she's got some challenges in her life.
And as a dad, he wants to rush in and white knight and save her from the problems that she's having.
And parental white knighting is a big and essential topic, particularly in the realm of helicopter parenting, as you sort of see in a lot of Western countries these days.
So, what's the difference?
Between white knighting and being supportive, particularly for a father or for parents as a whole, is a fascinating, fascinating question, and we'll really see in this conversation how the patterns of history in a family can repeat.
So, without any further ado, let's just get started.
This was a really, really great chat.
All right.
Just got to call Bree, calling her via phone.
Right now, I want a cheese sandwich.
Brie, I could never name a child something that would make me hungry every time.
Here, bucket of fish.
Time to come in and eat.
Are you there, Brie?
I am, I'm here.
Wait, is this a phone?
Yes.
A phone!
Brie, are you currently...
What's the weather like in 1987?
She was calling from a Starbucks via Skype, but the background noise was kind of bad, so we're gonna give the phone a try.
Plus, we wouldn't want people in the Stormbox to be planning a mafia hit that somebody could identify in the background of the conversation.
Alright, let me read this intro.
David wrote in and said, My daughter moved away a few years ago to try and have a relationship with her mother and to get a fresh start.
She is now a young woman and a mother of two.
I have a strong desire to ride in and rescue her.
However, I do not want to rob her of the growth from her struggle.
Can you help me delineate between supportive parent and parental white knighting?
That's from David.
Let's just say I have my doubts, David and Brie, but I'll give it a shot.
As best I can.
As best I can.
Is this mostly around the mom?
No, no.
This is actually me.
See, I raised her and my son as a single father.
And, you know, since about age two.
So, uh, and she now is, uh, she's almost 22 and my son is just about 23.
So it's, um, you know, we've, we have a long history together.
Um, but yeah, she moved down to, uh, near where her mother lives, um, roughly about three years ago.
Yeah.
Wait, wait, wait.
Hang on, hang on, hang on.
Okay.
Raised them as a single father.
Yeah.
You moved to where her mother lives.
Yes.
We might need to unpack that a tiny little bit.
I agree.
Okay, so that's why I said, like, it's to some degree about the mom, right?
So let's start with that.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Where would you like to start?
I mean, I can do the, uh, I can do, like, a one-minute commercial for it.
I can give you the full...
Let's do the Uno von Minuto, and then we'll see if we need to dip any more.
Okay, all right.
So I suppose how it came to be that I was a single father...
We, my wife left me, it was around when Bree was 13 months old and my son was about two, two and a half.
And she kind of, there was a lot of moving around.
She ended up going up to where her parents live and she was up there for a little while, kind of moved around a little bit.
Yeah, yeah.
What?
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, David.
Oh, no, no.
And Bree.
Please.
Two and a half months?
Yes.
Did she leave her boobs behind?
No, not two and a half months.
My daughter was 13 months old, and my son was two and a half years.
I may have misspoke.
Oh, sorry, sorry.
Sorry, two and a half years.
Sorry, got the date flipped.
Okay.
Yeah, my son's the older one.
Right.
Okay, okay.
So, 13 months.
So, was the marriage in trouble?
Prior to the two kids?
Is it Bree's fault?
That's what I'm trying to establish.
No, no.
Well, I don't know.
I wouldn't say her fault.
I'm kidding.
Okay, let me explain something.
My mom, like, she wasn't ready to have kids when she had kids.
You know?
At 18.
Right.
But I was 19 as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She has, like, some mental issues that she was unaware of or didn't...
I don't know.
But why does she have kids, then?
Because...
I have no clue.
Right, yeah.
David?
Yes.
You may have been there.
Would you like to chime in?
I would love to.
Why...
I don't know the why...
What I can say is, you know...
Wait, wait, wait.
What do you mean you...
I mean, I hate to...
I asked this with a kid on the line, but was it like an oops?
I mean, what...
It was kind of an oops, but, you know, I've never really talked about this aspect of the oops of it, but I remember the day that, you know...
When was she off birth control?
She...
Yeah, she must have been.
She did...
I know she had pills, you know, the birth control pills, but I don't think she was taking them.
What do you mean you don't think she was taking them?
I mean, there were some missing out of the package as if she was using them, but I don't think she was diligent about taking them.
Yeah, if you don't take them every day, if you miss one day, you're screwed.
Well, you miss one day and you're screwed.
You're screwed.
Right.
So, was she saying, I'm taking pills to not get pregnant, but then she didn't take the pills?
Um, it was, honestly, it was not something that we discussed a whole lot of.
I was aware that she...
Did you discuss it at all?
Um, no.
Okay, no problem.
Now, did, because when you don't take a birth control pill, right, don't they have, like, circles or lines, you know, where Thursday, right?
And if Thursday, if it's Friday and Thursday's pill is still in the package, that's how you know you didn't take it, right?
Right, right.
So, was she trying to get pregnant while telling you that she was on birth control?
I don't know that she was trying to, but if I describe this one scenario to you, it'll make a whole lot more sense.
I'm not sure it will, but I'm certainly willing to hear.
Okay, I don't think it'll make sense, but it'll clear things a little bit.
The night that this happened, and I say happened, it's like there's, you I was about to finish the job, so to speak.
I said that out loud, and what happened from that point was her arms clamped behind me and held me in.
Right.
So she knew that she was not on birth control because she'd missed some pills, and then she wanted you to give her a baby.
Yes.
Yes.
Now, why is that?
I mean, so she sperm jacked you, right?
She didn't tell you that she was not on birth control.
She knew she wasn't on birth control.
And she made sure that you didn't, you know, have your orgasm, you know, outside of egg accessibility, to put it as mildly as possible.
So she...
Chose to get pregnant and chose to make you a father, at least at that time, without your knowledge and against your will, right?
Right.
Like, if she'd have said that night, by the way, I'm not on birth control, what would have happened?
Ugh.
I don't know.
I think the giant lead wall of no fatherhood comes down wherein no sperm can penetrate, right?
If you don't want to be a dad at that particular point and the woman says, oh, by the way, I'm not on birth control, you're like, I'm sorry, we're closed.
At least we're closed for that, right?
Right.
And look, and please understand, I'm sure you're overjoyed that your son and your daughter are here, so Bree, I hope this isn't like, you know, you feel like some spilled orange juice or anything like that.
I just, I'm trying to get a sense of, like, if you say, well, my mother wasn't ready to get married, sorry, wasn't ready to be a mom, wasn't ready to be a parent, but then she didn't take her birth control and didn't tell your father, then she was working hard to get pregnant, right?
Pretty much.
I think that she was hoping that by having kids, it would fix her issues with herself.
Or it would change her in some way, or she wouldn't feel the way of herself.
How do you know that?
That's a big hypothesis.
I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm just curious how you know that.
Me and her have, you know, we've delved into it a tiny bit, not a whole lot.
We try and keep it as far away from our relationship as possible.
I guess.
She feels like if we talk about it more, it becomes like, you know, I think she thinks that it becomes real.
So, Bree, would it be completely unfair of me to say that as far as your mother's motivations go, you're kind of making one up?
You don't know yet.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
You don't know for sure.
Because this is like, this is the second excuse I've had.
All I can do, all I can do is I can...
I can think what I think.
I don't know.
I don't know what happened all those years ago.
I don't know what went through her head.
I don't know any of those things.
Well, we have some idea what went through her head, which is that she declined to take birth control and declined to tell your dad.
Yeah.
Right?
That's not good behavior.
Again, I'm happy you're here.
Your dad's, I'm sure, infinitely happier that you're here.
But that's not good behavior.
I don't think you'd condone that.
If your friend of yours came and said, well, I want to have a baby, but I don't want to tell my husband, so I'm just going to tell him I'm birth control and then make sure he has an ejaculation inside me so that I can be a mom and he can be a dad, what would you say?
I would tell her that she's fucking nuts.
Yeah, you can't make that decision for a man.
You can't.
No.
I mean, it's just like the guy putting a little hole in the condom and saying, oh, well, I guess sometimes they don't work.
Right?
I mean, that's wrong.
And it doesn't mean you're wrong.
I mean, again, glad you're here and all that.
But, I mean, I'm trying to get a map of what happened.
Because that's...
How did you experience that, David, when you found out she was pregnant?
And then you found out that she hadn't been taking her birth control.
I mean, I wasn't...
Yeah, I really didn't get upset about it.
When we found out she was pregnant, I was quite happy.
Not that I was sperm jacked, but I was happy with the idea of being a father.
It was something that I felt really strongly.
And I think it changed me a lot.
Just in that moment, it was like when I found out she was pregnant.
You know, that was a pretty exciting moment for me.
And I don't want to take away any of that, of course, right?
And being a dad is a complete delight.
So I don't want to take any of that away.
But the reality is, I would imagine in hindsight, if you could go back in time, you might say something like this.
It's great to be a dad.
Not necessarily great to be a co-parent to someone who sperm-jacked you.
Right.
Because that indicates a very manipulative and controlling personality structure that wants to get their way.
They want to get their way and everyone else has to pay their price.
And the idea of negotiation and the idea of having upfront discussions and the idea of Possibly being wrong or being denied what they want is so unbearable to them, they'll just do anything to get their way.
They'll be street fighters, they'll kick to the groin, they'll do anything to get their way.
Am I way off base?
Oh no, it gets way more crazy as we go into this.
The story of this is quite long.
So the initial sperm jacking was that.
When my son was born, we ended up moving to Florida together.
We had lived down there for about a year, and my daughter was born in Florida.
We were away from home.
We were away from family.
We were struggling.
We were both kids.
I wasn't working in anything that was really netting a whole lot of income.
What we did was we moved back to Basically my hometown where my family is to be closer to family and for support, you know, and and that type of stuff and You know, we were here for a while And I was working a lot here so I I had two jobs So I was it was kind of like a full-time job and I was doing a part-time job at night a couple nights a week Can I just be I'm sorry to interrupt David I just have to be a complete dick because the joke is rolling around in my head and I can't get it out
and I want to make sure I can listen sure Getting born in Florida.
It's the only place where you say, I don't know if it was hotter and moister outside or in.
Okay, I'm done.
Move on with the story, and I apologize for that.
I just couldn't get it out of my head, and I wanted to make sure I could keep listening.
It's out.
I'm not saying I'm happy it's out, but at least it's out, so let's keep going.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So, yeah, I was working two jobs, and I came home from work one night, and she was gone.
She was gone.
Both the kids were gone.
There were no notes, no nothing.
There was no pre-discussion about this.
She was just gone.
Any warning signs that you knew, looking back?
The only thing I could...
Looking back, there was one...
We had an argument, and it was about me not working, or me working so much and not being around, and she kind of felt alone and kind of almost isolated, I guess.
She was there.
You may have experienced this as a single dad, but being home with kids without an adult after a while, you just feel you're trapped up a clown's ass.
It's just like, oh god, I could use an adult conversation at some point.
I get that.
But you had to work two jobs.
You've got to put food on the table, right?
Exactly.
Right.
So yeah, she left.
And it turns out she ended up going up to her hometown.
Her parents drove down, I guess, three days after that.
Because she had left And then went to a friend's house who was local that we, you know, a mutual friend.
Her parents came and picked her up there and brought her back up to where she lived up in, you know, her hometown.
Wait, wait, hang on.
So her parents participated in her kidnapping, the kids, and vanishing, and...
Yes.
So they're not great.
And, well, her parents, I say her mother and stepfather, because her parents are divorced and her father lives near me.
Of course they are.
Okay.
Right.
And they're about 500 miles from me.
Oh, my God.
Right.
And did they know that they were participating in something illegal?
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Their part in this is even more ridiculous.
So she stayed with her parents for a couple of months with both the kids.
And after about three months, she got a job local up there.
Wait, wait, wait.
Three months.
What did you do?
I was here at home basically tracking them down.
I found them where they were after about three weeks, you know, because it was, you know, calling around.
God, what a nightmare.
Yeah, why it took me three weeks.
Seriously, you didn't know if they'd been kidnapped and killed and thrown in a ditch, right?
Yeah, they could have been anywhere.
There was, I mean, I don't know.
You know, there was nothing saying, hey, I'm going to a friend's house for a couple days.
It was she just up, left, both the kids, boom.
And that was...
You know, that was that.
And you're looking to see if somebody kicked in the door or not, right?
Right.
Spermjack kidnapped.
This is like...
Right.
It's an episode of Cops here.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
So she, you know, after, you know, like I say, the three months...
Oh, by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt again.
Bree, do you know all this stuff?
How's this landing for you?
Yes.
Okay, good.
I just wanted to check.
Okay.
Yeah, we've talked about this, you know, in bits and pieces over the years.
It was kind of what was appropriate at the time.
And And we've always kind of talked about this.
So, yeah, she had gotten a job and she had moved out of her mother's house with only my son and left my daughter at her mother and stepfather's house.
Right.
Okay.
Now...
Right.
So, from that point...
I had gone up and visited a few times because I was going to see the kids, and she was still up there.
It was kind of weird because when I went up, I could see my son, but my daughter was at the mother's house, so we had to call and, hey, is it okay if Dave comes and sees Brianna?
I went up.
I made countless trips up there to go and visit her, to pick her up and go to the mall, and just kind of do things with her.
And did your wife ever say why she left?
Was it just you were working too much?
I think it was that, and it was also we had a conversation where I had originally sent in feedback on a string that I I hear commonly in a lot of callers and stuff around the marijuana issue.
And I smoked marijuana at the time.
And that was one thing.
She did not like me smoking marijuana.
And she was not a smoker.
And it wasn't something at the time.
I mean, I couldn't really even afford it.
So it's not like I was buying it.
It was just friends would smoke with me after work.
It was the restaurant industry.
So it's like Everyone and their brother kind of smokes.
How to do that job sober.
Yeah, right.
Right.
Right.
So, yeah, this part is, you know, we, this was right around income tax time, basically.
So when I filed taxes, I had split the income tax with her, the return that we received.
And, you know, with that income tax, you know, the money she had from the split, she basically, she moved from where she was to, to a friend for about three weeks with my son.
And then she came over.
And from here, she literally just went from place to place.
I have a sheet of phone numbers from where she is now.
This is her next number.
And I probably still have that list.
But it was a tracking her down kind of thing.
So was she like Couchsurfing with kids?
Couchsurfing with my son, yes.
Oh yeah, sorry.
Rihanna was a...
Okay, got it, got it.
Right, right.
So how my son ended up coming to live with me was she had called me one day.
I was at work.
I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I just have the question about why separates the siblings?
Oh yeah.
I can...
This is...
Something that I was not aware of.
And it kind of comes in a little bit further into the story, but I can put it out now, if you like.
Yeah, I'm just trying to understand.
I don't understand the nomad thing with one kid.
Oh, okay.
Like, why not leave the two siblings together, since they have a relationship, and going off with one?
I say this because in my family, like, my brother and I were separated for years because of stupid family relationships.
Things with no warning and all that.
And it's just weird.
It's just, like, person gone, person back.
You know, years in between.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's kind of a lot of what we had here.
So, she ended up calling me at work.
Calling what?
Calling you at work.
Okay, got it.
Sorry.
Right, right.
And she had ended up that night, or the previous night, in a homeless shelter because the...
The people she was staying with, she actually worked for them, and they had an upstairs apartment that they were going to allow her to rent.
And she was kicked out by the wife because the wife thought that she was sleeping with the husband.
So, you know, she had basically the wife...
I thought she was sleeping with the husband.
She thought my ex-wife was sleeping with the husband.
No, no, no, I get that.
What does that mean?
Yeah.
Do you not know?
I mean, you're getting the reports from your wife, right?
Well, this was our conversation.
When she had called me, I guess technically it wasn't a conversation on the call.
This was shortly after I picked her up.
Because they literally kicked her out, threw everything out on the front steps.
She ended up having no place to stay because this was night.
And she went to a local shelter to have shelter for the night with my son.
And, you know, when she called me the next day, I literally just, I got the call, I left work immediately, went and picked her and my son up, and, you know, we came back, I dropped my son off at my parents' house, and I took her with me to go have a conversation about what we were going to do.
Because, you know, at this point we have, you know, her getting kicked out and bouncing all around in all these different places, no civility whatsoever for my son.
my daughter is off you know with uh uh i and um you know we we basically had plan was that she was going to get a job and you know get herself a place and i was going to have my son with me until um you know she had a place and was stable and you know could provide a home
This was something we had talked about while we were married much prior to this and it was We had talked about, you know, if we were to ever get divorced, you know, who would raise these kids?
Or how would we raise these kids?
You know, what was going to be, you know, living arrangements?
How are things going to go?
And, you know, we had both decided that it would be her that would be the primary caregiver.
Wait, wait, hang on, hang on.
On what grounds could you possibly have thought that she should be the primary caregiver?
Sperm-jacking, kidnapping, homeless shelters, rolling all over the state, splitting up the siblings, parents participating in illegal kidnapping of children, as far as I understand it.
I mean, I'm just trying to sort of...
How does this possibly say, yeah, let's have you be the primary caregiver, because what, like Ben, the malfunctioning robot, is busy.
Right.
You're absolutely right.
I think at the time I was relatively clueless in a lot of different areas.
Did you have friends or family or anyone saying, dude, it's not a good place for your kids?
I didn't have people saying that.
The kind of people that were around me were partiers.
I drank and stuff as a youth.
I haven't really drank in years.
Oh, so they'd offer you weed, but they wouldn't help you with your kids?
Yeah, there was no...
Great people!
Great!
Well, yeah.
They're no longer part of my life, but...
No, I get it.
I get it.
And your parents?
My parents...
I mean, my mother...
She...
I mean, I can't say that she said no.
I don't recall any of her...
You know, anything from her saying, you know...
Dude, you shouldn't do this.
But they're not exactly like grizzly bears protecting their grandchildren from this random schizoid she-wolf, right?
Right.
Exactly.
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
I'm sorry about that.
I'm sorry that you didn't have perspective or people jumping in, which we all need from time to time.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Yeah, I don't get a lot of that from most people I talk about this with.
Yeah.
You know, because they just, you know...
This is a hard story to hear, and people just look at me like, what?
So you're in a situation where you've decided that if you get divorced, your wife is going to be the primary, I guess for want of a better phrase, caregiver.
Yeah, I use that term sparingly with her.
Maybe giver or something, I don't know.
So from that point, you know, we had our conversation, and I had brought her over to one of her friends' house.
And, you know, from there, she kind of, there was a whole other string of her going from this couch to that couch to this couch, and she ended up with a couple that I had gone to school with.
But, I mean, why, why, sorry, why?
I mean, I know Cursed Woman, but I mean, why would people put up with her?
Like, I mean, she can't have been an easy person to have live with people.
I mean, does she have, like, nude photos of people?
It's like, how does she get all of this?
Yeah, I mean, hey, come stay on my couch.
Right.
Easy lady.
Like, why?
Yeah, I, you know, again, that's...
I don't know.
Maybe the answer is...
Yeah, I think so.
And that was almost kind of what I was getting to with the couple she had stayed with prior to, because this was the couple she stayed with prior to moving.
And this couple I had gone to school with, I'd known them for years, and they were engaged and they were both preparing to move around the time she moved in with them.
And, you know, she had stayed with them for, I don't know, it had to be a couple months or so.
And, you know, I had gone over there.
You know, so there was still interaction between us in that sense.
But, you know, I went over there one day and she basically says, hey, I'm moving down these guys.
And, you know, that's what I'm going to do.
Wow.
And, you know, I like my alone time with my wife.
I just haven't someone come and live for months.
It's just, I don't know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, man.
Anyway.
All right.
Okay.
So, obviously, it's people with no boundaries and all that.
Right.
Okay.
So, then what happens?
All right.
So, at this point, she's in...
Okay.
And I'm like, you know, dude, she's in...
I have my son.
My daughter is in...
And, you know, I'm doing trips up there.
You know, throughout all of this, I'm doing trips up there.
And we had talked about this one time.
You know, I had called her...
This was prior to one of the trips that we had made up to visit Brianna.
And, you know, I had told her, I said, listen, I am going to go and I am bringing Brianna back home.
And, you know, I could not believe that she had left my daughter in that house with that stepfather.
Because her stepfather...
Have you explained that yet?
Pardon?
Have you explained that yet?
No, I have not explained that.
You can probably explain that.
Yeah, yeah, this is a pretty big thing.
The stepfather, he sexually assaulted my wife, her sister, from a prior marriage, all of the daughters in that family as well.
And my wife left my daughter at that house.
And not only left her there, when I told her I was going up, I said, listen, I'm going to get her out of there.
I'm not going to call ahead of time.
I'm going up and, you know, I'm going to get my daughter.
And so we did.
Or we sort of did.
We made the trip.
We went up there and, you know, knocked on the door and we were basically turned away.
You know, they're not here right now.
They went up for the week and they won't be back until next weekend.
You know, I'm really sorry about this.
And, you know, just call next time.
So, again, that's a 500-mile trip for me, and everything else.
Sorry, how long had Brianna been in that household at this point?
Well, the entire time that she was there would have been from 13 months till two and a half years old.
And your wife was raised by this guy?
Yes, from about age five.
And from what I understand, she was molested around from, I think, age 11 to 13-ish in that range.
I think that was right around...
He's like 9-year-old, like 13, 14.
Right, right.
So that was kind of his range.
And from what I understand, it was about the same with the other girls as well.
Okay.
All right.
So...
It's almost like, I mean, the thought, and I apologize for sharing it if it's upsetting, but the thought that pops into my mind is that maybe she was programmed by the stepdad to deliver a kid.
Right, right.
Yeah.
Yeah, it gets creepier.
A girl.
You know, it's like, order a girl, right?
Right, right.
You know, so we were turned away.
Basically, we went back.
And about a week later, in the mail, I have a summons to court and I have a restraining order.
Because before my ex-wife had left home and come down and did this whole dance that we were talking about, the couch swapping thing or whatever, she had signed a paper at a lawyer's office.
Claiming that she did not believe I was Brianna's father.
So she was contesting custodian or parental rights.
And the reason she was...
Wow, so I made a joke earlier like you were probably there, but she would contest that, right?
Right.
Yeah, so she did this with the lawyer, and she signed over...
But is it your name on the birth certificate, right?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, we were married, and my name was on the birth certificate.
She basically just called herself a flat legal document.
What's that?
She basically just called herself a flat legal document.
Yeah, yeah, basically.
She would have done that, I assume, under pressure of the stepfather so that he would not have to give up custody of you, Brianna, right?
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
They were trying to...
Because what ended up happening, though, is they were trying to adopt her.
No, I get that, and they would talk to a lawyer, and the lawyer would say, well, you've got to get David to give up his parental rights in order for you to have the capacity to adopt, because he would have a say, right?
I mean, if the mom wants to give up custody, then it goes to you.
It doesn't go to the stepdad and grandma, right?
Right, exactly.
And that's exactly what happened, because that started off a string of, you know, I basically had to prove paternity in the courts up north.
Before I could divorce her and get custody here.
You know, this is what's so...
I mean, I don't probably have to tell you anything ugly about the family court system, but this is what's so insane about the family court system, is that you're considered the father, even if you're not the father, right?
But then if the woman says you're not the father, suddenly that's in question.
It's like, what?
What?
Yeah, it's bizarre.
It's absolutely bizarre.
Yeah, so there was a number of trips that I had to make up there to go to court.
And throughout all of that, she maybe showed up to one or two of these court appearances, right?
I went to all of them, but she showed up at maybe one or two, and her parents had flown her in for it.
Basically, what happened was I took the blood test here at my home, and they submit it and they go through the process and stuff, and then you get your results.
So when the results came in, the results were like 99.5% sure that I am her father.
It can't get any higher than that.
That's as high as they can rate that possibility.
But it also proved that I was her father.
And so from that point, you know, I got that maybe midweek.
I had called up to the grandparents house and I said, I just got the results back from the blood test and I will be coming up this weekend to pick up my daughter.
Please have her ready.
And, you know, and that was basically that call.
So from that point, you know, we went up and we picked her up and she's been with me ever since.
And how old was Ben at that point?
At the time, when I finally got her out of there, she was two and a half.
Right.
And Brianna, do you remember any of that time at all?
A little bit.
I remember a little, like, games we would play or, like, certain things that we would do, but not a whole lot.
Right, okay.
Right.
Now, we have, you know, 18 years to go, so we gotta hit the gas a little bit here.
Right, right.
And now, Brianna, just to check in with you, I mean...
Do you know all of this stuff?
Is any of this coming as a surprise?
You know, it's not often we get to see the recipe that goes into the soup that is us, right?
Right.
I feel like I've heard this story a thousand times.
Okay, so let's skip forward.
So how long was the mom out of her life?
11 years?
Yeah, something like that.
I mean, in the beginning, she would call...
She made two or three visits from that point until 2000.
The first couple of calls were once every six months, and then they became once a year.
Again, we've got to keep moving.
She's basically out of life.
Let's go forward 11 years.
Once every six months is out of her life.
When she's 12, 13 years old, the woman comes back?
Doesn't come back.
No, over the years, I was the one who was making contact with her sister.
Okay, we've still got to move this along.
How long until she's actually back in the picture?
Like not just floating around or coming by once in a while, but involved, engaged.
When I was 19, I moved here and became a part of her life.
Wow.
Okay, so let's switch to Brianna and try to get through this shoebox she calls a phone.
So Brianna, how did your mom come back into your life at 19?
I was bouncing around myself.
I was in a really rebellious stage in my life.
I was rebelling against my dad.
I was very angry with him.
And I ended up like, I went for I was with this guy for a couple weeks.
I was kind of using him for a place to stay.
My mom got me a plane ticket.
I was supposed to only come for a visit for about three weeks.
When I got here, she kind of convinced me to stay.
I didn't really have much for me back home.
I wasn't really speaking to my father.
It was kind of like in and out.
So I stayed and decided to try and build something.
You decided to stay with your mom because you didn't have really any other options, right?
Right.
Other than getting a job and getting your own place, right?
Exactly.
And was that not on the table for you?
I guess I just wasn't at a great place at that time.
I thought about getting a job.
I hadn't even finished high school.
I was...
I dropped out.
Sorry, you hadn't finished high school at 19, is that right?
Right.
Did you drop out?
I dropped out of the high school.
I started back in high school.
Alright, so then at some point you did finish high school while you were staying with your mom?
No, I didn't.
Oh, you didn't finish high school.
Okay.
Are you going to finish high school?
Eventually, yeah.
Oh, you got pregnant?
Yeah.
Oh, that's right.
That's right.
Sorry, I forgot about that.
Okay.
So, at what age was your mom pregnant?
When?
How old was she?
Oh, she was 18.
Yes, 18.
And Brianna, how old were you when you got pregnant?
19.
So, a bit of a pattern.
And, of course, you're living with a woman who got pregnant at 18 and then you ended up getting pregnant at 19.
So, not a great influence there, right?
No.
Wait, you're sort of laughing a bit here?
Excuse me?
I wasn't sure if you were laughing a bit there or not.
No, no, I have a cold.
Okay, okay.
So, how did you end up getting pregnant?
I met this guy and...
Oh no, I get that there's a guy involved.
I remember my grade 7 sex ed class and the banana and Sue Johansson, but How did you end up getting pregnant?
Because, you know, there's like 17 different ways to avoid it.
I was on birth control, and I wasn't on the pill.
I was on the depo, and it actually failed.
And I got pregnant.
Was that the under-the-skin one?
I don't know which one that is.
That's the shot.
Oh, and it's supposed to last for a certain amount of time, and it didn't?
Yeah, like every six months.
And do they test you whether you've got eggs after you're on it?
I mean, how does that work?
The shot was still in effect.
It had been about three months since I had the shot.
I have no idea.
I actually got pregnant on birth control with my second child as well.
Yeah, see, you know, one may be but two.
Was the two planned as well?
Wait, what?
Sorry, the second child.
Was the second child planned as well?
No, I was actually on birth control.
I was on birth control with both of them when I got pregnant.
And were they different birth controls?
Yes, I was on the pill with the second one, and I was on the depo with the first.
And you are saying to me that you didn't miss taking a pill, or you did?
No.
No, I did not.
And...
Mike, if you could just look up the failure rates.
I just want people to get a perspective on this, the failure rates.
So the failure rates for the depot is 0.3%, right?
Something like that, yes.
Yeah, we're just looking it up here.
So the typical use failure rate for depot provera was the same It's 0.3%.
And what's the typical failure rate for the birth control pill?
Pretty high.
I'm looking.
I'll let you know.
I think if you take it regularly, like same time and all of that, I think it's similar, but we'll check.
Because I have a hard time believing, I've got to be honest with you, I just, I have a hard time believing that two near I have a hard time believing that two near perfect birth control methods failed for you.
No, I do too.
Actually, I don't know.
But the birth control pill, I had a hard time taking at the same time every day.
It kind of split my mind, but I took it every day.
Right.
But I don't know why the depo failed.
Maybe it failed after three months instead of six, but I don't think it's a decay curve because they probably want you to get a shot again before the decay curve, right?
Right.
If it sort of tails off, right?
They'd want to sort of deal with that ahead of time.
Anyway, I'm no doctor.
I'm no expert on these things.
So you got...
Now, I'm going to...
Obviously, I hate to ask this insulting question.
I'm sure the answer is yes, but it's same dad for both kids?
Yes.
Oh, sorry.
I'm sorry to talk to my dad.
Yes.
Okay.
And he's still in the picture.
Are you guys married?
I mean...
We're...
Planning on getting married, but yes, keep in the picture.
Okay.
And he's supporting and all that kind of stuff?
Yes.
Well, good.
And are you happy with him, in love with him?
Yes.
Yeah, we have a good relationship.
So good for you.
I mean, you stepped up from history, right?
Yes.
All right.
Indeed.
Okay, so I appreciate that.
The pill is 0.3% failure for perfect use.
The pill is 9% failure rate for typical use, which is the percent of women experiencing an unintended pregnancy within the first year of use.
So the difference, so if you perfect use, I think, is same time every day and blah, blah, blah.
I didn't realize it goes up like that.
That significantly goes up, like the failure rate goes up over 30 times if you take it different times every day.
So that's important for listeners to know.
That's helpful.
Wow.
That's important.
All right.
So take it the same time every day or you are going to have some...
Oh, yeah, that could be missing pills, too.
I don't know the degree at which same time every day are missing pills, but...
All right.
So...
Daddy nighting?
White nighting on your part, David.
That's where we started, and I appreciate that tour.
And I'm sorry we had to hit the gas a bit there, but...
Oh, that's fine.
Where are you living now, Brianna?
I'm living with my boyfriend and my kids.
Okay.
Right.
And...
What do you want to save her from, David?
Well...
I mean, her living conditions right now, I don't think are ideal for her and for her boyfriend and for the grandchildren.
Well, you know, to be fair, unless I'm living in Jennifer Aniston's own house with four pools, my living arrangements are not ideal for me either.
But what do you mean by that?
I mean, that's a big gap between not ideal and...
Right.
Well, let me explain a little bit further into my living conditions right now.
Now, see, Brianna, I could give your dad an hour, but I can't...
No, of course, please go ahead.
All right.
My boyfriend is possibly one of the laziest people I've ever met in my entire life.
You said your boyfriend is one of the laziest people you've ever met in your entire life?
Yes.
So you've probably only had sex twice, which makes the two pregnancies even more startling.
All right.
He's not lazy in that aspect.
But...
Can I tell you an old joke?
This is a way old joke.
It's a pretty good joke, though.
It's very short.
So it's an old joke.
This guy's sitting in a bar.
Another guy's there in a bar.
Guy turns to the guy and says, hey, you want to play some darts?
He says, nope.
Tried it once.
Didn't like it.
Like, well, I don't know.
Maybe I can buy you a whiskey.
Nope.
Tried whiskey once.
Tried it once.
Didn't like it.
And he says, well, what are you doing here in the bar?
I'm here to meet my son.
Your only son, I assume.
Anyway.
So what do you mean?
Did you know he was lazy before you became his girlfriend?
No.
No, I didn't.
He didn't.
He did not really tell me a whole lot about what he was about or anything like that.
Alright, and I'm sorry to ask this with your dad on the line.
Time frame between meeting your boyfriend and having sex with him?
Like the same day.
So you met your boyfriend.
Well, he wasn't your boyfriend then.
He was some guy.
Some guy you didn't know.
You met him and you had sex the same day.
Yeah, and I got pregnant that same day as well.
So you're full on...
Biblical, beast with two backs, intercourse, with the guy you met that very same day.
Yeah.
Like I said, I was not at a good place in my life.
No, that's...
I gotta give you choice still there, right?
I mean, you're an adult, right?
I am.
I mean, I get you're not at a good place and all that, but if somebody would give you a million dollars to not have sex, you probably would have held off, right?
Probably.
So you still had choice.
Plus, I mean, you know, these forms of birth control do not protect you from STDs, right?
And so you had a sex with a stranger, didn't know his sexual history.
He could have had some kind of satanic leprosy crotch rot for all you knew, right?
And your birth control wouldn't have done a damn thing to help you there, right?
Right.
I thank God today that my genitals are still intact.
I'm sorry, say again?
He said, I thank God today my genitals are still intact.
Right.
So when you said that you didn't know much about him, it wasn't because he was secretive, it was because you met him and had sex the same day, right?
Yeah.
Right.
And how many men had you had sex with before him?
I'd really rather not say.
Okay.
Fair enough.
Yeah, anyone can always not answer that's fine.
And...
When you say he's lazy, Brianna, what do you mean?
I mean that he doesn't like to work.
Like, he's not good at supporting us financially.
He'll get a job and then he'll quit because he didn't like the boss, because he didn't like the people he was working with, because he didn't like the way he had to talk.
You know, there's excuses out the ass.
Sorry, I missed the last...
You just crackled up a bit there.
Something about the ass?
No.
He always has an excuse for why he doesn't like the job and why he needs to quit.
Right.
So he's not very disciplined.
He's not willing to sort of subject himself to the necessary crap you have to do to break through to get decent jobs, right?
Exactly.
I mean, he's very intelligent and he could get a good job and he's had good jobs in the past.
He just always has an excuse as to why it's not for him.
And are you working?
No.
We've actually had arguments about this, like me working because he doesn't want to leave the kids with anyone else and I don't want to leave the kids with him.
But what are you living on?
I never understand this.
I've always been like, I had my first job when I was 10.
It's like, if I want to eat, a little toil is kind of necessary, right?
Right.
So what are you guys living on?
Well, okay, this is our living situation.
This is where this comes in.
He still lives with his mom and his sister and her boyfriend and their two kids.
So he lives with the mom, the sister, her boyfriend, and their two kids.
Yeah.
And where do you live?
I live with them.
Oh, you live with this, all of this, right?
Yes, yes, this is, yeah.
Right.
But what do you eat?
I mean, how do you pay for groceries?
How do you pay for health care, dentistry for your kids?
How do you get money?
I mean, it's not like he's never had a job in the time that we've been together.
I mean, he's worked, his mom has been very supportive, I guess you would say.
His mom has been very supportive.
Yes.
No.
Yes.
No.
If he's an intelligent guy and he's not getting a goddamn job when he's got two kids, she is not being supportive.
Three kids.
She's doing something wrong.
Just pointing that out.
I want you to readjust your compass a little bit here, Brianna.
Okay.
Okay.
So she raised a guy who's like, great, let's have sex.
Oh, you got pregnant.
Okay.
Let's have sex again.
Okay, you're pregnant again.
I don't really feel like I need a job because I don't like to be told what to do.
You know, I think if you have two kids, David, you might want to back me up here.
I think when you have kids, you've got to grow up.
Yes.
Right?
You've got to grow up.
It doesn't matter if the job sucks.
Look, I've been paying my bills since I was 15 years old.
I took in roommates.
I had three jobs.
I worked through college.
You grow up.
And I was 15.
This guy's older than that.
And he has two kids.
I didn't have two kids.
I was a kid.
But you grow up and you say, I had a job cleaning offices.
Was that fun?
Not really.
The job as a waiter, was that fun?
No.
Wasn't fun.
Before that, I had a paper.
Before that, I worked in a hardware store.
Before that, I worked in a bookstore.
Before that, I painted figurines.
I mean, you just do what is needed because you're not an idiot.
And he, if he's intelligent, he has far less excuse.
If you said to me, well, you know, he has trouble tying his shoes together and he has trouble, you know, going through the doorway rather than walking into a door, I'd say, okay, well, sorry about the genetics, but, you know, I can understand.
But you say he's highly intelligent, then he should be intelligent enough to know that if you're a dad, you get a job.
Yes, indeed.
No, I understand.
It's not a supportive environment that has caused this.
I mean, what do you think would happen if the sister, the mom, the boyfriend, the two kids suddenly said, you know what, this is not working, you guys got to move out?
Would he get a job then?
I would fucking hope so.
What do you think?
Would he?
I really, I don't know.
So, that's a terrifying situation to be in, that you are dependent on the kindness of strangers, right?
I mean, they wake up tomorrow and they say, we've got to have our own space back.
I mean, you're on the street, as far as you know, you could be, right?
I mean, I guess.
I mean, his sister and her boyfriend are living there too, and his mother supports everybody.
And what does she, how does she get her money?
She works.
Oh, so she works and she's supporting four adults and four children.
Right.
Is she married?
No.
No, she's divorced.
I mean, are you all living in a ditch or does she work as a stockbroker and make billions?
I mean, that's expensive stuff.
No, she's a nurse.
I'm sorry, say again?
She's a nurse.
Oh, and is she getting alimony?
I mean, where's the rest of the money?
I can't imagine a nurse's income can support that many people.
I really, I don't know how she does it.
Well, you might want to ask, because you are taking the money, so you might want to ask how she's getting it, you know, what's happening, because that's your lifeline, this is your kid's lifeline, you probably should find out a little about it, would you say?
Yeah.
Does the sister and her boyfriend work at all?
Yes.
Both or just one?
Well, his sister just recently started working.
Right.
Brianna, why don't you want to leave your children with your boyfriend?
Because he kind of like...
Well, okay, if I were to leave him alone with the kids, I would come home and the house would be an absolute disaster and the kids would be just cooped up in our room all day because he doesn't want to chase them around the house.
What do you mean?
Would he just shut them in their room?
I mean, he would be in there with them, it's just that he would prefer to keep my oldest You know, kind of contained so he doesn't have to like watch his every move, I guess.
Play with him.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, he loves to play with us.
It's watching or making sure he doesn't get into trouble or, you know, like he won't like cook or anything if he's, you know, out and about and I'm not out there.
What's he busy with?
He doesn't have a job.
What does he do all day?
I mean, I don't understand.
I mean, he can't cook?
Is he splitting the atom?
Is he building a hadron super collider?
Is he building a rocket ship?
What's he doing all day?
Well, see, this is my issue.
Up until probably three months ago, he worked from November 2014, and then he got laid off from his job and, like, April, and then he got a new job in less than four hours.
Yeah, you haven't answered my question, though.
I mean, that's a very interesting resume.
But the question was, why can't he cook during the day?
He's not working.
And what I'm saying, he can cook, it's just he won't.
He doesn't like to do things if he has to watch as well.
The smell of this.
So does he not take him outside?
Does he not take him to the park?
Does he not do things?
Does he just keep him in his room with padding around him?
Okay, he's not scared of getting hurt as much anymore.
He likes to take him to the park.
He loves going outside.
He just loves adventures.
And he'll take them places, and he'll do things with them, but if I'm not home, and he's at home by himself with both of the kids, he, you know, ushers them into, you know, his room and kind of, like, keeps them there.
And what does he do all day?
I have...
You're in the same house.
You must have some idea.
I guess it's just he plays Pokemon all day or he watches TV or he plays a...
And if I ask him to help me clean, he'll help me clean.
He plays Pokemon?
How old is he?
26.
I'm sorry, he's what?
26.
He's 26 years old?
Yeah.
And he could be a provider for his children and get you guys into a more civilized environment, but Pokemon.
Yeah, but Pokemon, exactly.
And baseball.
And baseball is a huge fucking thing.
What do you mean baseball?
He likes staring at baseballs?
He plays baseball?
He watches baseball?
He plays baseball and he watches baseball.
If there's baseball, he's around it.
He plays baseball with a men's league for...
Wait, wait.
So baseball and Pokemon, have you seen a fucking birth certificate here?
Maybe he's just a really tall 12-year-old.
I mean, am I off base?
Did you check?
Not at all.
Does he collect baseball cards?
No, he has a lot.
I think he used to.
He has a bunch of them.
Okay, so he outdrew that.
Okay, okay.
Good!
Progress.
What's on the shelves in his room?
We got books or action figures?
A lot of trophies.
From baseball.
Yep.
Baseball, medals, trophies, figurines, signed baseball.
So he's very fit, right?
I mean, I know baseball's a lot of standing around and then sprinting until you get a hernia, but he's, you know, pretty fit, right?
He's pretty what?
Pretty fit.
Yeah.
And he's got a lot of trophies for baseball, not exactly Father of the Year awards, but at least baseball.
Yeah.
Right.
Now, is he looking for work at the moment?
No, we've had some medical issues lately, I guess you'd say.
That prevent him from working?
Yes.
He's had pretty debilitating kidney stones for about a year.
I don't know.
He finally did something to get rid of them and then he got a kidney stone every day for about two months.
I've never had one, but from the Seinfeld I've seen, it looks pretty bad.
Am I going to assume that you guys have looked into lifestyle choices about kidney stones and there's nothing that he could be doing to provoking these kidney stones?
Well, the other thing is he changed his whole diet to get rid of his kidney stones.
And did it work?
The reason he got them is because all he drank was Red Bull and Mountain Dew.
Red Bull and Mountain Dew?
Okay, he's 12.
You guys gotta send me a birth certificate.
Red Bull and Mountain Dew?
Yeah.
Well, at least he's getting his sugar, his fructose glucose, and his caffeine.
So, I mean, after that, I mean, it's all...
God forbid he'd touch the salad.
He didn't change his diet.
He started eating like a vaguely sane human being.
Okay.
And has this helped him with his kidney stones?
Yeah.
What it did was it broke up all his kidney stones into smaller kidney stones and he had probably a hundred in there and they just came every day.
Right.
Yeah, and this also may be why he dropped the item at his work, right?
Because his hands may have been shaking.
He may have had withdrawal or over-caffeination or fatigue or...
Well, honestly, that whole situation with him getting fired was not in any way his fault.
He was fired because the guy who was helping him had been there for 10 years and he'd only been there for a week.
He was on top in the attic because he's a small guy and the other guy...
It was supposed to be pushing the air handle up and the guy didn't have it and he shoved it up at my boyfriend and he hit his neck on a rafter and it shot his arm numb and he dropped it.
He almost killed the guy under him.
Yeah, that would be a bit scary for anybody who'd like to stay insured.
I can understand that's pretty terrifying.
Alright, so are his kidney stones better now?
Yes.
We still have issues with...
When you heal from something like that, you know, that part of your body heals the same as, you know, any other part of your body.
It's scabs and then, you know, it's scar tissue.
And he's had a couple blockages from it and he's had to go to the hospital and get the blockages, you know, flushed out.
His kidneys frickin' exploded.
And, um...
Now he has a fuckin'...
He's got a huge knot in his back and he can't pick things up.
Oh, he's got a knot in his back?
Yeah.
He was trying to get me to the dentist the other day and he tried to open a trailer door and it was like 150 pounds of dead weight and usually his father helped him open it and he did it by himself and it twisted his back.
Anyways, he had a scare today.
He thought that he was having more kidney issues and that he might have fucked up his kidney, that he had chronic kidney disease.
You know what?
Fuck Google.
Wait, who got chronic kidney disease?
Yeah, well, when your ureter blocks up and it pushes everything back into your kidney, your kidney can swell and it causes kidney failure.
Oh, okay.
So the Red Bull and Mountain Dew led to the kidney stones, which led to the blockages, which led to backups, which led to problems, which are unrelated to the knot in the back from lifting a 150-pound dead weight, which he normally – which he shouldn't be doing because he would be doing it with – Like, he would be doing it with someone else, but he decided to do it by himself, and now he hurt his back.
I'm trying to figure out the high intelligence thing here that you keep talking about.
Okay, his intelligence is not common sense-based.
I think you've already converted me to that one.
I'm just wondering where it does reside.
He's very well-versed in physics, and...
Mostly physics.
Well-versed in physics.
Okay.
I mean, 150 pounds, if he's not a big guy, that would be a helpful application of physics.
Don't lift it by yourself.
Okay, but he reads up on physics.
What else?
Just like physics and astronomy, and he just thinks very deeply about things.
I hear it's just like a constant question of what this reality is, and I think that's like He uses that as an excuse as to why he doesn't work a lot.
Like, how do I know I even need to work?
This isn't even real, you know?
That type of shit.
Wait a second.
He's questioning the reality of his own existence?
Yeah.
He's questioning the reality of his own existence.
Yes.
I would not put that down as a mock of high intelligence.
I think it's more of a he doesn't believe in God and he doesn't believe that there's nothing.
So he's kind of like between what he believes, I guess.
He's what?
Like he's not religious and he's not not religious.
Like agnostic or something?
Yeah, because religion means you have to get up on Sundays.
Right.
And not being religious means you have to take a stand on something.
Right.
He's apathetic, right?
He's neutral.
No.
What's he passionate about?
What does he take a stand on?
What is he passionate about?
What does he take a stand on?
What does he stand for?
He doesn't really stand for anything.
That's what I mean about apathetic.
Yeah, okay.
Is he depressed?
Sometimes.
Does he enjoy his life?
Is he happy?
Is he get out of bed and enthusiastic about his day?
He does, but lately he's been really depressed.
Right.
I'm not really sure.
Before he met me, he was depressed.
After we met, he was okay.
He was happier.
We had a good relationship, whatever.
We had our son.
But he's fallen into depression in the last six months.
Well, yeah.
Why do you think that is?
Because he has nothing.
Because second, his body is screwing up and he thought that that was You know, the one thing that was going to be okay.
He's become very negative in the way that he talks and the way that he acts and all of the daily thoughts went on through his head.
You said, Brianna, that he thinks that he has nothing, right?
He says that he has nothing.
He would be nothing if he didn't have his family.
No, us.
But...
He has a wife who's scared to leave her kids with him, or a girlfriend who's scared to leave her kids with him, and he's not providing for his family.
Well, let me be clear.
I have left them with him before, and it's fine.
It's not like he neglects them, but it's more that I feel more comfortable myself being with my children.
I don't trust really anybody to be with my children.
Because I don't know what goes on when I'm not there.
Right.
How do you see this playing out over the next five or ten years, Brianna?
I don't really know.
I'm sorry?
I don't really know.
I've been kind of playing everything by ear lately.
Well, that's not a good idea.
No, it's not, but...
With everything that's been going on, I've been trying to get through one day at a time.
I've had to be the rock for everybody.
It's like I've been taking care of three kids instead of two.
Well, I mean, is it an unfair thing to say?
And I'm just going to be brutally honest with you.
It's just as I see it, right?
It's not facts.
It's not reality.
It's just as I see it.
But you didn't choose the right guy to be the father to your kids, did you?
No.
I mean, you met a guy, you had sex with him the same day.
You got pregnant.
You switched birth controls because you didn't want another kid.
You got pregnant again.
I mean, if you could go back in time, you probably, you know, I know you love your kids and all that.
But if you were to go back in time, would you say, yeah, go for it with this guy?
No, I would probably, I would have pursued the relationship, but I would have waited longer to have sex.
You would have pursued the relationship.
Okay, so what is it about him that you love, that you find noble, attractive, appealing, virtuous?
He cares about me a lot.
How do you know?
When I'm hurting, he's hurting.
No, no, no, no.
Come on.
Oh, my God.
No, no, no.
You've got to give me a better falsehood than that.
Are you anxious about the fact that he doesn't have a job?
I did.
Nope.
Is he providing?
Does he give you a sense of the future?
Is he saying, look, I'm sick now, but here's my plan.
Here's what's going to happen.
I'm going to take this course, because I may not be able to do any heavy lifting work, but at least I can read stuff on the internet, and I can learn stuff, and I'm going to learn how to do X, Y, or Z, and then I'm going to get a job here, and I'm going to call this guy, and I'm going to do this.
Is he giving you any sense of security?
About your future.
And your future as a mother, your future as a girlfriend, your future as a wife, your security.
Is he making you feel secure about saying, look, I'm going to shout at you for the whole day, see everything you do with the kids, and I'm going to do exactly that, because I may be physically out of commission for working, but I can at least play with the kids, I can play Monopoly for God's sakes, or whatever they're going to play at the moment, so that maybe you can get a job for a little while and be absolutely, completely and perfectly secure that I'm going to be a great father.
Would those things be caring about you?
Would those things be helpful for you?
Yes.
Is he doing those things?
No.
I mean, I've...
We have talked about me getting a job and...
He doesn't...
We're both kind of like on the same side with the fact that he doesn't want...
He wants one of us to be with the kids at all times.
But if he's physically out of commission, then it has to be you who's got to work, right?
Yeah, but the only thing is he has to work.
He has to pay child support, and that is something I refuse to do, is I refuse to pay his child support for him.
Wait, wait, wait.
He's got other kids?
Well, yeah, I said he had three kids.
So he's got kids with another woman?
Yeah, he has a daughter.
Is he paying his child support?
He was paying child support, and then he got fired and laid off and all that fun stuff.
That doesn't matter as far as child support goes.
Is he currently not in accordance with the custody arrangement?
Is he against the law at the moment?
No, yeah, he is.
And we're actually...
His ex-girlfriend has got a hearing date to send him to jail, so...
Oh, my God.
Oh, my God.
David, you know all this, right?
Yeah.
Yes, I do.
Except for that last part.
Oh, the jail thing is a new thing?
Yeah, that's...
I didn't hear that one until now.
Yeah, you might want to lead off with that a little bit next time you're having these kinds of conversation, because that's pretty significant.
Is he a lot behind in his child support?
Well, okay.
See, he...
He signed over his parental rights to his ex-girlfriend's new husband, but he has a lot of back pay from the years that he didn't pay child support and he owes about $12,000.
So he has not paid child support for years and he owes $12,000.
Yeah, and so he started paying that off and now he's stopped because he's not working.
Right.
So, So, you could be a single mom for an indefinite period of time starting pretty soon, right?
Right.
David, what do you think?
I think it's a very good possibility.
And it's, you know, it's really what I mean by, you know, the situation is not ideal.
I mean, it's obviously far less than ideal.
You think?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you see my concern?
Yeah, I, um, you know, I've met the kid, you know.
I've been down there with my grandson.
We went down for the birthday.
He seems friendly, but highly irresponsible.
Very much childlike.
I don't see him stepping up as he should.
What it means to have to step up for your children and he's doing none of them, you know, and I know quite intimately what it looks like.
Yeah, and I'm sorry, I have to take back when I said earlier, Brianna, when you talked about, you know, good boyfriend, you're going to get married and so on.
And I said, well, you've stepped up from history.
Right.
I don't know how that's the case now.
And not meaning this in a negative way, like I just have to clarify that.
Because this is a mess, right?
Yeah.
And it's got to be terrifying.
I mean, are you sleeping?
I mean, what's your anxiety level at?
I've been sick like every day for three months.
You've been what?
I've been sick for like every day for three months.
That's about my anxiety level.
Oh, it's got to be horrendous, right?
I mean, you don't know what the hell is going to happen.
Right.
I'm so sorry.
I mean, that is terrible.
That is terrifying.
That is a mess.
And of course, it's challenging to be a great parent when you're facing that level of anxiety, right?
Right.
Your heart is not as open and as available to your kids because you've got worries, right?
Real worries.
Serious worries.
I mean...
My attitude and how I parent my children and the things that I do with them haven't changed at all.
But, you know, the thoughts in my head after they go to sleep are different now.
Right.
So you can compartmentalize to some degree when you're with your kids, but it's...
Right.
They're that important to me that I can forget about what's going on.
And do you really think, and I know he's the father of your children and all that, but Brianna, do you really think if you were to go back in time and you'd say, well, I wouldn't have sex with him on the same day, I'd still explore a relationship?
Really?
Right.
Really?
Yeah.
I mean, just because, like, back in time, though, I didn't know any of these things.
Well, no, I get that, but I mean...
Anyway, all right.
Okay, so let's get practical, I guess, as best we can.
Okay.
What would your ultimate white knight scenario be, David?
What would you do?
Well, I mean, there's a couple scenarios.
I mean, first, I... Just give me the ideal one.
Look, man, I mean, I hate to be impatient, but please don't give me 12 scenarios.
Give me your absolute ideal.
What's the thing you'd most like to do?
Ideal, I'd like to bring her back up here.
Okay.
But, you know, I mean, again, I don't want to separate the children from the father as well.
But, you know, he's clearly not doing what he needs to be doing as a parent.
But I would want to bring her closer so that she can have at the very least people that can offer real support as opposed to just, you know, paying all the bills and, you know, allowing inaction to continue.
I certainly would think that you need to do something proactive.
Agreed.
I mean, everyone, right?
I mean, you've got to talk to the justice system, you've got to get lawyers, I mean, whatever is necessary.
I mean, again, I'm no lawyer, no expert on these things, but as far as I understand it, law don't care if you've got a job or not, you've got to pay.
And there's no debtors prison in the world, or at least in the West, except for guys behind their child support.
It's almost always guys, because how many times the child support gets levied on moms?
Right.
So, you know, it's not up to you whether the kids get separated.
I mean, the justice system is probably going to do that anyway, right?
Right, right.
And this young man, he's 27 years old.
Right.
I mean, he's almost a decade out of high school, and this is where he's at.
I would not anticipate any imminent change.
Right.
Right.
The best predictor of future behavior statistically is relevant past behavior.
Exactly.
Right?
He did not find it necessary to work hard to pay for his first child, and he has not found it necessary to work hard to pay for his current child.
Okay, yeah, a little bit of sympathy about the kidney stones, but that's a self-inflicted wound.
I mean, there's no sane human being on the world who thinks that that diet is not going to have negative health consequences.
If I eat all candy bars, do people give me sympathy for my cavities?
My diabetes?
Well, not hugely.
I mean, it's not even the kind of addiction like heroin or cigarettes or whatever, right?
I mean, it's just lazy.
It's just easier to grab something to drink while you're sitting at the computer or playing Pokemon or doing whatever than it is to get up and make yourself a damn salad and a sandwich.
So, I can't get myself to, you know, owe the poor dear when it comes to the kidney stones.
I feel the same.
You know, especially your dad, so you can take care of yourself, right?
Right.
I would not wait for change.
I'd not cross your fingers.
I would not say, tomorrow he's going to wake up and be a go-getter.
He's 27.
He's not a kid.
And he's got three kids now he's not paying for.
And he's got time for baseball and he's got time for Pokemon and all that so it's not like he never had any energy and can't get out of bed and he's not like he's physically debilitated before all this kidney stone shit.
So I'm sure he's got his own history that is horrible.
And I'm sure that he's had his own challenges.
He's not a bad guy, bad guy or whatever, right?
He's not out there strangling kittens or anything like that.
But if I were in your shoes, David, I would not anticipate change in this scenario coming from the young man.
And I also would not expect change in this scenario coming from my daughter, who is Brianna.
Right.
Because she's just saying, I'm just living day to day.
I'm just trying to get through the day, right?
Right, right.
You can't get a view of the horizon from people staring at their feet because they think the ground's going to give way any moment, right?
It's nothing wrong with it.
It's just the reality of where you are, Brianna.
Is that fair?
Yeah.
Right, right.
So change is not going to come from the parents of these two kids and nothing good or bad about that.
That's just pragmatically how I would look at the situation.
Right.
So if there is going to be change, then it's going to have to come from you, David.
I don't think it's going to come from anyone else in the family.
I agree.
I agree.
I'm really the one who, you know, I've always stepped up for, you know, both my kids, but, you know, me and my daughter, we've had a...
Well, no, to be fair...
Yes.
No, no, to be fair, you have not always stepped up because you were willing to give primary custody to...
Right.
...your wife.
Right.
I mean, you did eventually, and so on, and I'm glad that you did, and fantastic.
But no, no, no, no, no, no.
You can't give your...
I mean, you know, if you had your excuses, you didn't have the right support system, you didn't have the knowledge, and so on.
But kids don't know that, right?
All the kids know is that I'm being stuck here, and daddy's not here, and daddy's not getting me, and daddy's not fixing this, and daddy's not going to court, and daddy's not getting primary custody.
And, you know, for your son, it's like, well, mommy's getting kicked out by some screaming woman who says she banged her husband.
Oh, boyfriend in the middle of the night, we're ending up at a homeless shelter, where's dad, right?
Right, right.
Well, dad's arranging to give her primary custody, right?
So I'm not trying to throw you under the bus either, but if you say, well, I always stepped up for them and I've always been there for them, not true.
No, I appreciate that.
Fair enough, definitely.
And again, I don't mean for you to feel bad about this, but we've got to have a clear-eyed view, right, of how we got here.
Yeah, that's really why I called you, you know.
I'm so sorry, David, I interrupted you.
Go ahead.
No, again, I was just saying that's really why I wanted to call in for the clarity, for a little fog removal, for all of our eyes.
The most likely scenario is this guy's going to go to jail.
Right.
That is by far the most likely scenario because he's already down 12 grand, right?
Right.
And Brianna, you say you're not paying his child support.
So the guy's already down $12,000.
He's got a bad back right now.
He's still got kidney damage.
He's not likely to be able to pay this debt.
Right.
And do you have the resources to pay?
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't.
I'm just curious if you have either the resources or the inclination, David, to pay the debt for him.
No, not the inclination to.
I'm not going to support a lazy person who cannot get out of their own way, cannot initiate their own progress in life.
And if you pay this debt, then the likelihood is that it's only going to reinforce the behavior that led to this debt in the first place, right?
Exactly, because that's really what it would be.
It would be someone else taking care of his shit for him.
Is there anything that the young man could do that would give you some indication that he might be worth paying, that might be worth you paying off his debt?
Lending the money to him.
In other words, is there any kind of initiative or gumption or change or action that he could take that might give you any sense of reassurance about his commitment to change?
You know, I have to say no.
And it's because of just the pattern of what I've seen in him throughout.
No, no, no.
I get the pattern.
I'm not saying do you think it's likely.
I'm saying is there any action that could happen?
Oh, I see.
I can't think of one that would compel me to pay his debt for him.
Brianna, can you think of any action that your boyfriend could take that would give you some confidence that some real dedicated focus change was imminent or underway?
If he got a job and made a plan.
Right.
Now, I assume that you've told him that in order to give you faith, security, comfort, happiness of any kind, and to reduce your anxiety, you say you've been sick every day for three months, right?
I mean, I assume you've told him that you really, really need him to get a job and have a plan.
I tell him every day.
And his response is what?
I know, I know.
You know, I'm working on it.
I have to be healthy first.
Right.
So he's not going to do it.
Right.
Does he know what the consequences of him not doing it is?
Like, is he fully aware that you may not stay in the vicinity, that he may go to jail?
Like, is he aware of his inaction and its consequences?
Like, does he get that?
Yes and no.
He's not aware of the hearing that is going to be coming up.
I'm sorry, say again, he's not aware of what?
He's not aware of the hearing that is going to be happening.
About his child support?
Why not?
Because I'm the person that contacts his ex-girlfriend.
But you haven't told him?
I couldn't.
I thought about telling him a bunch of times.
Every day I listen to how depressed he is and the pain that he's in.
I couldn't tell him.
I couldn't bring myself to tell him.
Oh, no, no.
Brianna, Brianna, Brianna.
Okay, I could.
No, no, no, no.
I don't often give people direct, like, to-dos.
I really try to strenuously avoid it as much as humanly possible.
But you've got to tell him.
No, I know.
I haven't found the right...
I almost feel like, let's talk again after you tell him, because I'm sorry.
Like, I'm sorry it's going to make him depressed and all of that, and I'm sorry this is the system that we have.
I'm sorry that he drank all of that stuff and screwed up his kidneys.
Yeah, I'm sorry about all of that.
But boy, if you want to help someone not be depressed, withholding them information that if they don't know might land them in prison, I don't think prison is going to be a place for him to get better.
I don't understand that.
Right?
And I get that it's like a really incredibly stressful thing to have to do to tell someone who's already down that they've got this additional problem.
But he also would not be shocked by it, right?
I mean, he knows he knows 12 grand in child support.
This can't be a shock that he might have to pay it.
And if he doesn't pay it, he knows the consequences, right?
Right.
Well, see, the hearing date hasn't even been set yet.
All she did was call her lawyer and...
They have to suspend his license before a hearing is even in the question.
Wait, they have to suspend his driver's license?
Yeah, like, what kind of fucking sentence does that make?
Oh, I know, I know.
The guy's having trouble paying bills, so let's suspend his driver's license, because that's going to work.
So, yeah, he needs to know, he needs to call that lawyer, he needs to arrange a payment plan, he needs to get his ass in gear.
As far as heading off this disaster, right?
But he doesn't even know it's coming.
No.
How long have you known?
Like a week.
Right.
It's also not my job to tell him.
He should have his own contact with his daughter's mother.
And...
And, you know, the lawyers and court system, and it's just something that he's been avoiding.
Wait a minute, wait a minute.
Wait a minute, wait a minute.
Brianna, do you want him to go to jail?
No, I don't want him to go to jail, but he also is aware that he is supposed to be working.
He's aware of the consequences.
He knows all of these things.
He knows what could happen.
Well, then it's no harm to tell him.
Then why are you avoiding telling him if he knows all of these things?
Because if I see him cry one more fucking time, I'm going to lose my mind.
So if you see him cry one more time, what's going to happen to you emotionally?
I'm not criticizing.
I'm genuinely curious.
What do you mean?
What does it lose your mind?
What does that mean?
I mean that I've just been very emotionally burdened lately.
I've had a lot of emotional stress, emotional pain.
Watching somebody go through a lot of pain or screaming on the bed or And that's you?
What?
Is that you or him?
Sorry, I just lost track of that.
He's screaming on the bed in pain and I'm watching.
Oh, because of the kidney stones, right?
Right.
Right.
I had the puppy dog look on his face when he's in pain and he's trying to hide it.
Stuff like that.
So, do you feel content for him?
I feel what?
Contempt.
I feel what?
Do you feel contempt?
Um, yeah.
Disgust?
I mean, anger, rage, frustration?
Anger, frustration...
I don't wanna...
Dispair.
Yeah.
I try and not, you know, like, hold it against him that he's in pain or...
Whatever, but it gets to me, and I mean, I've even yelled at him while he's on the bed screaming, you know?
I've reached a breaking point.
And I've had to come back to them and get my head on straight so that I can help him and take care of my kids.
And the kids, I assume, have their own room, right?
They're not seeing this.
Oh, they've seen it.
They've seen you screaming at him while he's screaming in pain?
No.
No, no, I have them leave the room if I'm going to yell, but...
Right.
I mean, they've seen him in pain.
Okay.
Okay, so David, your scenario is to get your daughter back to where you are and give the...
Maybe the young man or the boyfriend.
The potential time and energy to deal with this situation?
Yes.
Yes.
And if he deals with the situation, if he gets a job, of course the problem is then he's geolocated further away, right?
With his job.
Right.
And that's something they had talked about, was moving up actually to be much closer, driving distance at the very least.
Yeah.
I don't know where those plans are.
We haven't really revisited that topic in probably a month or two.
I know that's something they had both been discussing for a while there.
It was a plan.
It was something that we wanted to do.
Not only does he not work very often, but when he was working, He has really bad money management.
I would take money out of his paycheck and put it away.
What would he spend his money on, Brianna?
Oh my god, this kid.
Every time he goes anywhere, he has to get a drink.
He goes to the store, he's got to get a drink.
And I swear that's where all the money goes.
You mean like an alcoholic drink or some other kind of drink?
No, just something to drink.
He's always thirsty.
Okay.
Right.
Yeah, and water's heavy, so...
He'll, like, get to me and want to go out to eat, even though, you know, it's not really something we can afford.
Can I break in for a second here?
Because where I couldn't answer your question before, you know, what was the one thing that would, you know, make this okay?
Not okay, but...
You know, an action that he could take that I could see and, you know, verify that he's doing something.
And it would be, he needs to break away from his parents' home.
He needs to get out from that support and he needs to, you know, be supporting himself and my daughter and these children.
And it cannot be under the wing of his mother because really that is, it's damaging.
You know, it's I mean, it takes away, when you're supported by somebody completely, and you don't have to do anything to make your way in the world, it's easy to not do anything.
Oh, but this is what I mean when I said that the mom is not being supportive.
Right, right.
Well, so, I mean, I don't...
Obviously, I don't have any particular practical advice to give in terms of, like, how, when, where, why, or anything like that.
I think he obviously needs to know that there's this potential legal situation developing.
He needs to know that.
He needs to...
You know, boy, if he can get into any kind of, if everyone or anyone involved in this can get into any kind of therapy or any kind of counseling, again, I know money is tight and all of that, but if there's anything that can be done, and, you know, David, if you have those resources as a dad, that's where I'd be spending my money, is trying to get...
Anybody into therapy that I could to try and find some way of breaking this cycle of inactivity and resentment and lack of self-care and all of this lack of motivation and depression.
I mean, it's a cluster, right?
It's a self-feeding, self-referential, snake-eating-its-olden-tail kind of cycle.
And therapy is a great way to break people out of that, you know, whether you have resources or not.
If you end up not having any resources, let us know.
Maybe we can help out.
But I would say, yeah, get, you know, the young man needs something.
You know, he's got another 50 years on the planet.
He needs something that he can do, something that he needs.
He's stuck, you know, and I was only half joking, like 12, right?
Something happened in his life, probably around the age of 11 or 12, that just stopped him from Developing, from continuing his motion, and he's been stuck there for, you know, I would imagine 15 or 16 years, and you've got a kid in a man's body with a man's testicles,
sadly, you know, making babies and all that, so something needs to happen to find a way to release whatever intelligence and energy that he has so that he's not reacting into disaster, because, you know, whatever we react to and we solely react to, we will always end up almost always in disaster.
And whatever can be done to break that cycle, I think that he's stuck like you, Brianna, in every day, every day, every day, get through the next 20 minutes, get through the next 20 minutes.
And I think to lift his head and look at the larger picture of his life would probably be something extremely traumatic for him and would probably throw him into significant despair, which he probably would need, I think, some kind of counseling, some kind of help to deal with.
Again, it's just my amateur opinion.
So resources for that young man to do something that is going to win back Brianna's affections.
Because Brianna, you don't sound like you like him very much.
And I'm not saying I blame you for that.
I'm just telling you what I hear.
Incredibly frustrated, incredibly angry, and heartbroken, right?
I mean, this is not how you wanted to be a mom.
This is not how you wanted to be a girlfriend.
This is not how you wanted to be a wife.
And when you're trying to climb the steps of somebody else's resolution and they keep crumbling under you, it's incredibly frustrating.
And it's heartbreaking.
Like, it breaks love.
It breaks attachment.
And you sound so angry and so frustrated.
And I'm not blaming you for that at all.
I mean, I'm just telling you what I hear.
It's going to be hard for him to win your heart back.
But certainly if things go on the way that they do, I can't imagine how that could happen.
So, you know, he's not able to generate it within himself.
So maybe he can, you know, if you can get him into therapy, maybe that will be some way to help him.
But, you know, of course, my concern, like I think everyone's concern in the conversation, is for the kids.
Now, we haven't talked much about the kids because we've been sort of trying to map, or at least I've been trying to map what's going on in the family as a whole.
But, you know, what is going to be best for the kids?
Well, if daddy ends up going to jail, it's probably better if they're not in the house.
In my opinion, you know, it's easier to say, oh, daddy's, you know, doing some work, he's dealing with some stuff, he's going to join us or whatever.
But if this is how it's going to play out, I'm not sure that it would be that great for kids to be around this slow slide into incarceration.
Again, that's just my thought about it, I think, because it would be so draining for kids.
You, Brianna, as well as your boyfriend, as well as you, David, and then what resources are there available when facing that kind of mess?
Are there available for the kids?
So I hope that, you know, if he can get some therapy, and Brianna, if you can get some therapy, and if proactive stuff can be done to head off this legal issue, then maybe that will start...
You know, sometimes people just need...
You know, you prime the pump.
They need a jump start.
They need something that just kind of gets them moving and then it gets easier every day to be in motion and to start dealing with things proactively and get things done.
And your problems then are no longer insurmountable because you're doing something about them.
So I would start with You know, hey, I got some good news.
I got some bad news.
You know, the good news is we're going to try and work to get you into therapy.
The bad news is that your ex wants her child support and like seriously wants her child support.
Like guys are going to show up at your door if you don't have it and they're going to take you to a not so happy place.
And that may be a jolt, that may be something that gets him up and moving, but that's what's happening.
And I wouldn't just drop the, you know, if you can find some way, work it out with your dad, or, you know, if you need help from us, well, we can help out as well.
But get this guy to some therapy for sure, because where he's drifting is he's just sitting on a raft that's going over a waterfall.
And, you know, he can still get to shore, but the longer he goes down that We're good to go.
But find something where there's some plan to do where it's like, tomorrow we're doing this, tomorrow we're doing that, tomorrow, the day after we're doing this, day after we're doing that.
And I mean, I remember when I was very young, I got some really bad news and I was like, oh my God, I'm going to get out of bed.
And I was like, you know what?
I've always wanted to paint this room.
And I got out of bed.
I went to the paint store.
I got some paint.
I started painting the room.
After that, it just got easier.
And I know that sounds ridiculous, like, oh, just paint something.
I'm not saying that.
But once you're starting to do something, anything, it can really help to just, you know, shake off the cobwebs and oil up the The joints and get something moving.
So if you have a plan like, okay, we're going to do therapy and we're going to sit down and we're going to together map out these kinds of jobs and so on, that can be great.
I think it's important for him to know, at least in my opinion, that if he doesn't change, I can't see how the relationship is going to last.
I mean, Brianna, if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong.
I don't want to say anything that's against what you think.
No, I mean, I agree.
I've been in I've been riding it out because I care about him and I would like to see a change and I would like to be with my child's father and I would like to have a family.
Right.
Right.
And so caring about him means that you have to find some way to shake off that dread of tomorrow.
And you can't just focus on the next 20 minutes or the next meal or you have to lift your head up and take a look at the maze you're in and try and jump up and see, you know, the top of the hedges and the shapes of the maze and anywhere else that can go.
Because...
It's probably, Brienne, it's probably your own anxiety that you're managing by not telling him because it's going to be really stressful for you to tell him because the bottom's going to drop out of his world and, you know, this is another blow and it's going to be really, really tough.
Does his mom know?
I guess not, right?
No.
Right.
Yeah, maybe she's got some secret fund.
I don't know.
I mean, again, I don't know.
I mean, I don't want the guy to go to jail.
But at the same time, you know, paying off his debts isn't going to cause him to change.
I don't like the idea that anyone's going to be changing because of facing jail.
So it's, again, I don't know the delicacies of the situation other than what you've told me so.
But maybe...
Brianna, does your mom know?
No.
Right.
Well, you know, I think maybe a big family, a multi-family sit-down, you know, maybe you can tell everyone together, you know, so that everyone can sort of give them a hug and try and figure out something that can be done next.
Because, you know, these secrets, they really isolate, you know, they really fence us off.
Maybe if everyone sits down and his mom, your mom, David, you, and maybe even the brother and sister, maybe everyone can sit down and try and figure this one out.
Families can do some pretty cool stuff when they're all exposed to...
Similar challenges.
People can surprise you at Rise Above and really come up with some cool stuff.
But I'd try and get as many resources on this problem as possible.
Right, right.
How are you feeling there, Brianna?
Yeah.
I'm alright.
I'm sorry for the whole situation.
I mean, it's not a fun place to be a mom from.
And I'm really sorry about the whole situation.
Like everyone, if I could snap my fingers and make it all better, I would.
This is where things are.
You know, I think things can be done that will make things better.
And a lot of times in life, oh, this thing's really bad.
You turn around and say, actually, no, it's really good.
It actually turned out to be a good thing.
Right.
And this could be one of these things where it's like, okay, if I'm facing this, I got to change something.
You know, you could look back and say, hmm, I hated it at the time.
best thing for me.
Right.
Thank you.
Right.
Will you guys let me know how it goes if you can?
Certainly.
I'll definitely be in touch.
And I really appreciate the conversation today.
Well, how was it for you guys?
Again, I mean, I'm just giving you my thoughts.
So I just wanted to know if they're helpful or useful or...
No, I think it was definitely helpful for me as well.
Or, you know, for me.
No, it was really helpful.
Brutally honest but helpful.
I'm sorry, Brianna, you were saying?
Brutally honest but helpful.
Right.
And I think that's kind of what we need right now.
Right.
Clarity.
Get to a place in life where honesty is not brutal and we're all happy.
Indeed.
All right.
So keep us posted, guys.
And, you know, big hugs, big love.
You know, brave to talk about.
And, you know, I feel positive.
You know, I'd like to say weirdly optimistic, but that sounds too negative.
I feel positive.
I feel that this could be a changing situation.
Time.
A positively changing time.
And I appreciate, I hugely appreciate the trust it takes to call in.
And I'm glad that it was even somewhat helpful.
Definitely.
Thank you so much.
Take care, guys.
All right.
Take care.
Have a great night.
And thanks, everyone, so much.
I'm so sorry to the people we didn't get to tonight.
I always make this vow.
I'm going to do it faster and do it better.
But you have to do the calls until the calls are done.
At least that's the way I'm always going to try and do it.
I know people have been waiting a long time to talk.
And I'm really sorry that we didn't get to more callers tonight.
So yeah, freedomainradio.com slash donate to help out the show.
Until we get $936 million in $2001, we will continue to nag and bother everyone for the good work that we do here.
But if you go to freedomainradio.com slash donate, help us out.
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