2976 Judgment as Violence - Call In Show - May 16th, 2015
Question 1: Is Non-Violent Communication Universally Preferable Behavior? | Question 2: I am feeling stuck. It’s been about two years since my significant other left. We have two children, one who is an adult and on her own and one who lives with me. After finding you, I began to peaceful parent for the last year and a half. The problem I am having is determining what to do when my needs and my child’s needs are in conflict. I am trying to heal myself and prevent as much damage as I can to my child. How do I determine when the benefit of my long term well-being overrides her short term needs for her long term benefits?
You might want to check out, if you're listening to this, freedomainradio.com slash donate, of course, to help out the show, as we need your help just as much, if not more than ever.
And also, I know it's a strange topic, and I was not particularly convinced when Mike first brought it up, but the truth about David Letterman, who is, of course, the talk show host, has been in show business for somewhere since the end of the Jurassic period.
It's really hard to know.
I say this because...
At one time.
You know, what is he?
He's in his 60s, 68 or something.
He's got an 11-year-old son.
But even if you're not a fan, check it out.
I think it's a very interesting life, and we do pull in a lot of zeitgeist and very interesting trends from sort of the 50s and onwards.
So I hope that you will check out The Truth About David Letterman.
Stoyan, on the polar opposite of The Truth About David Letterman, what's that other truth about we've got coming up?
The truth about George Washington, which is yet another monster of a presentation, and I think people are really going to enjoy it.
Now, because I'm pretty much just a mouthpiece for Stoyan's massive anti-white prejudices, because you did the research on that, right?
Yeah.
And how much of that was deeply surprising to you?
Most of it, I've got to say.
It started off as, he'll probably be a decent guy.
I know that there will be some skeletons in his closet.
He's a politician after all.
But what came out was quite shocking.
He is a shockingly and surprising, like even by political standards, he is a surprisingly shocking human being.
So that has definitely been Stoyan's pride and joy.
It is the child that he is bringing forth to the world.
I am merely the midwife of Tangents.
But, you know, that's coming up.
It's actually uploading as we speak.
And so it'll be up in a day or two when it's ready to roll.
But it's a great, great presentation.
I mean, Stoyan, you just did a fantastic job on the research.
And even when I was, like, I'd read it a whole bunch of times before we did it.
And then even when I'm doing it, I'm like, there's just no way.
I mean, this has got to be faked by some anti-Masonic lunatics out there, or people who just hate the $1 bill for reasons that can't be fully explained, but...
It's a fantastic job, and I hope that you will check that out when it comes up.
So yeah, those are two big things we've been working on lately, the truth about David Letterman and the truth about George Washington.
I mean, you've just got to see both of those, but if you can only pick one, I think the truth...
I mean, you've got a prejudice.
The truth about George Washington, I think, is...
I'd say George Washington, especially if you're from the United States.
The cultural programming is quite strong in there, I hear, and it could serve as a deep programming method And quite a shocking one at that.
So I hope you're going to check it out.
Yeah, and it is interesting because not only is it shocking to hear about his actual life and choices, but it's also shocking just how much has been concealed.
It's one of these two-for-one presentations because it tells you a huge amount about George Washington.
And would you say also a huge amount about the culture that people live in?
Oh yeah, I actually got a little bit paranoid in the beginning because I was thinking, I'm finding these strange facts about the man, yet at the same time they're omitted from most of the large volume histories and biographies on him.
And I was thinking, maybe this is some conspiracy.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe he was a good guy.
But when I started digging into the primary sources, yeah, the truth came out.
And it was a very interesting one.
I've got to say, even though I'm not from the United States and I haven't grown up with that myth, it was quite an experience just researching it.
So I think it will be quite an experience watching it too.
I mean, I've studied history and philosophy for...
I don't know, an embarrassing amount of time, longer than Stoyan's even been alive.
And I did a full year course on American history and all that, but man alive.
I mean, all they basically did was talk about how great the great society was and how Nixon was a jerk.
But boy, there was just none of this stuff.
And you know, they say that to figure out something, you really need to look at the origin of it.
And I think it's quite telling.
In the United States, you know, because we all look back, we want to see this golden age, right?
We want to see this, oh, you know, well, back when men were men and this golden age that some people perceive about the past.
But man, you look, it's a Genesis myth, you know, like, well, back in the, you know, we've fallen from grace and back in the beginning, it was great.
It really is quite eye-opening to say the least.
Anyway, I guess enough teasers that we should probably move on to the callers.
But yeah, so who's up for us?
First, we've got Mariano, and he's asking, is nonviolent communication universally preferable behavior?
Hello, hello.
Hello, how are you doing?
Fine, thank you.
Thank you for taking the time to talk to me about this.
I'm very interested in your, would you call it theory or proposition of universally preferable behavior?
Yeah, argument for or theory is fine, yeah.
Yeah, theory.
Okay, very good.
I read your book.
I've read three of your books.
And I must say, I kind of struggled with the UPB book.
And let me say that I've had some college training in symbolic logic and mathematical proofs.
But still, I struggled a little bit to wrap my head around your arguments.
But nonetheless, I think you're very...
I'm optimistic or maybe proud of universally preferable behavior because it has, I think you have said, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it has the potential to really bring harmony in human relationships if we follow it as a principle.
So I'm very curious.
I'm very interested.
And at the same time, I think I've guessed from watching some of your videos that you're not very...
I'm enthusiastic about nonviolent communication, but recently I attended the 8th Annual Nonviolent Communication Conference here in California.
And I'm not an advocate or I don't subscribe to nonviolent communication.
It's just that my wife and I have found it rather helpful.
In learning to improve the relationships with mostly with our children, but in general with the people we choose to have a relationship with.
And so just trying to reconcile the two bodies of knowledge and, as I said, better understand your universally preferred behavior theory.
And how...
I mean, this can be a very short call if you want.
Or we can...
Oh, I don't think it can.
It can only if we assume everyone's familiar with everything, which of course is not...
You know, very helpful.
So, I'll just do a little bit on UPB, and I'm sure you're far more the expert on nonviolent communications or NVC than I am.
So, let me just do a very, very quick bit on UPB, and then I'll let you do NVC, and then we'll put our acronyms together and see if we can make something F-U-N. But, so...
UBB is short for universally preferable behavior, a rational proof of secular ethics.
People can get this free book at freedomainradio.com.
Very briefly, it's saying that ethics must be universal, otherwise they're not ethics, they're aesthetics or choice or preference or something like that.
And for a proposition to be virtuous, to be ethical, then it must universally apply to all people at all times, under all circumstances and so on.
And so, for instance, you can't say, thou shalt steal, is a valid ethical proposition.
Two men in a room cannot both steal from each other at the same time.
They can't both steal from each other at the same time, because if stealing is universally preferable, then everybody must want to steal and be stolen from, but if somebody wants to be stolen from, it's not stealing anymore, right?
I mean, if I put a washing machine out...
In my front driveway saying, take me, then I can't really complain if someone takes it that they've stolen from me because they want someone to take.
So if you take someone's property with his or her permission, then it's not stealing.
And so stealing can only occur if stealing is unwanted, and therefore stealing cannot be both wanted and unwanted at the same time.
It can't be universalized.
And the same is true for theft and rape and...
Sorry, for rape and murder and assault.
Theft, rape, murder, and assault, those are the four major bands in ethical systems.
None of them can pass the test of universality, and therefore we can be confident rationally that ethics involves bans upon rape, theft, assault, and murder.
And again, this is a very brief overview.
We go into much more detail in the book.
So that is a brief sort of theory of ethics.
That I've worked on that don't rely upon the enforcement of the state or the dictates of a deity in order to be valid, to be sustainable.
And they also don't rely on, do you agree with this already?
You can come to the argument believing that murder is great and theft is great and so on, and the theory will still hold sway.
So that's a very sort of brief tour of UPB. And would you like to talk a little bit about the background of NVC? Well, yes, and I'm no expert.
The extent of my expertise or my knowledge is just I read the book Nonviolent Communication by Rosenberg.
He's the author, the person who put this body of knowledge.
And I come to understand that it's kind of a sizable body of techniques, of communication techniques for human interaction and conflict resolution.
But I'm no expert.
I just know a little bit, read a book.
I went to this conference where I took these workshops.
No, I get it.
I'm sorry.
I don't want you to downplay your expertise to the point where people stop listening.
So we get that you're not an expert, but you can at least delineate the theory probably better than I can.
Yeah, okay.
Well, it just basically says, look...
It's this body of techniques of knowledge that allows for better communication between two parties to achieve the ideal win-win interaction so that both parties can have their needs met In harmony without one hurting the other.
I mean, I think in a nutshell, that's really what it is about.
And in order to engage in non-violent communication, both parties, or at least one, should be very, very aware of one's own feelings and needs.
And to be very aware of these two in the pursuit of trying to satisfy these needs and how they may come into conflict with the other party's feelings and needs.
And so if at least one of them tries to muscle, I guess, or shoulder the burden of knowing one's own needs and feelings, At the same time,
the feelings and needs of the other, then there is hope that both parties will harmoniously help each other satisfy their needs without engaging in conflict or aggression or just to have better relationships.
So in a nutshell, I think that's my understanding of it.
And so it kind of sounds like if everyone adopted nonviolent communication, Then there would be finally peace in the world, which is something that you'd like to talk about and is something that could be universalized,
I guess, if everyone lined up their efforts and energy towards trying to satisfy ones and each other's, everyone else's needs.
Yes, I mean, this is the challenge I have with this kind of stuff is I don't feel I'm any more illuminated at the end of an explanation than I am at the beginning.
And so, to me, there's sort of partly, it's to me a little bit prejudicial to call something like non-violent communication.
Now, I know I sort of talk about peaceful parenting, but peaceful parenting is the non-initiation of the use of force and the non-initiation of aggression, which means don't hit your kids, don't yell at your kids, don't call them names and so on.
So I think that's fair to call that peaceful.
But nonviolent communication is sort of, well, if you don't agree with this, then you must be into violent communication.
And I think that technically the problem I have with that as well is that the word violence is kind of specific.
Violence usually, I think, it would be fair to say that violence means the initiation of physical force.
You know, I mean, violence is not, I'm upset because somebody didn't like my painting or something like that.
Violence is pretty specific.
And I don't know that the word violent and communications can go hand in hand.
We have bans against violence.
Obviously, it can't go up and hit people in the face.
But we have protection through free speech of causing others offense.
And so it would seem to me that we would never want a society where violence wasn't banned, but we would also never want a society where communications were banned because they were upsetting the people.
So non-violent communication seems like a very exaggerated way of talking about...
You could talk about maybe verbal aggression or something like that, but violence seems like a very strong phrase to use in communication.
Does that make any sense?
Yes, yes, but I think the...
The use of the word violence is very specific, at least in this body of knowledge, in this universe.
What I understand, and the reason I think they use the word violence, is that all forms of violence, including physical, must have their origin in a cognitive or like some mind process in which one Judges the other to be in fault or in the wrong.
And that is the origin of the action of the attack, of an attack, of an aggression.
Agreed.
Sorry, agreed.
But technically, we all have violent thoughts.
But we wouldn't say non-violent thinking.
Because thinking can't be violent.
Otherwise, we would have to have legal...
Or social bans on particular kinds of thinking.
And so, while it's true that I think lots of violence originates in aggressive thoughts or false thoughts or whatever, there are very many false thoughts that do not result in violence.
In physical violence, you're right.
But the mere...
I think my understanding is that violence equates judgment.
In a very broad sense and in my amateur way of understanding it.
In other words, the moment you cross the line of judging somebody, and I may be wrong, but in the NVC world, that means violent communication because you have judged.
You must keep yourself from judging others, and in particular when you communicate with them, To achieve non-violent communication.
So, hang on.
What does judgment mean?
What does judgment mean?
It's a personal assessment of right or wrong in someone's behavior.
Like, for example...
Yeah, but sorry, sorry.
And again, I know you're not an expert, but this is sort of what I would ask is that isn't calling something non-violent communication, judging negatively those who are I mean, it's a very judgmental term, right?
Like, if I said anybody who doesn't agree with me is practicing violence, everyone's against violence, you know, like in general, right?
And so it's kind of prejudicial, but it seems like a very judgmental thing to say, well, this is nonviolent communication, therefore everything else is violent communication, and the first thing you do is not judge people, but even saying...
Non-violent communication is judging people who are doing something else.
Wouldn't that be the case?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I didn't think about it that way.
And I don't know why judgment would be so bad.
I mean, again, and I know you're not an expert, but it depends what people mean by the word judgment.
Does it mean being judgmental?
In other words, just saying, oh, I don't know, this person's bad because, oh, he's Chinese, and you know what?
The Chinese are, like, being prejudicial or something like that.
But that, to me, is not the same as having a judgment of someone.
Yeah.
Well, no, it's...
I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Oh, no, I was just going to say that, no, it doesn't really necessarily have to be something associated with morality, like, this person is wrong.
I think they even...
NBC, they even go farther in saying, like, for example, when I may tell my kid, son, you are eating too much ice cream.
That is a judgment of how much ice cream he should be eating.
And therefore, that would be violent communication.
So if I want to have a good relationship with him, and if I want to really...
I work to help him satisfy his needs.
I should keep myself from using that type of language because it will foster a reaction in him, a defensive reaction, because my judgment of my having judged the amount of ice cream that he's eating is a judgment, therefore it's violent.
Wait, so does he equate saying to your child you're eating too much ice cream as a form of violence?
I think that's what they would say, yeah.
Because, okay, when engaging in conversation or when you're trying to communicate with someone or when one perceives the world, you know, stuff happens around us, especially when we are with somebody else, there is an observation that A perception component to the interaction.
Like for example, my kid is eating ice cream.
That's an observation.
It's independent of any judgment that I may attach to it.
And so to practice non-violent communication, I should be very aware of the difference between the observation and the judgment that I may attach to it.
So So when I see my kid eating ice cream, and that may trigger a feeling in me, and that feeling may be very complex, like, oh my god, it may be fear that maybe he's going to get sick and get diabetes and die or something scary like that.
That may trigger a judgment on my part and try to control him.
Okay, and I just came up with this example, but hopefully it'll illustrate the thinking here.
And so I may proceed to go from the observation to the judgment.
And that's crossing the line of what they call violent communication, because judgment is the language of violence.
And it doesn't help.
It actually hurts the relationship in the way it goes.
I mean, there are better nonviolent ways of trying to help my son not get diabetes or whatever I'm afraid of than trying to control him through judgment because the cost of using judgment may be too high.
- Yeah, I sort of get that.
I mean, you want your child to not eat badly because of the ill health effects on your child, right?
I mean, and we all want, you know, good health and all that, so we all want to eat well.
Now, of course, you don't want your child to put down the ice cream because your child is frightened of you being angry about him eating the ice cream, right?
Like if you're feeling tense or angry or scared about your kid eating the ice cream, You don't want your child to modify his behavior because of your fear or anxiety because that's not teaching the child anything other than modify your behavior when other people are upset with you, which is, you know, not really a lesson that I think people want for their kids if they sort of stop and think about it.
Now, the reality, of course, is that your child may be eating too much ice cream and, you know, we all subject ourselves to that from time to time.
But there is a fact called That's too much ice cream.
You know, ice cream has a lot of sugar in it and all that and cavities and all that.
So, and, you know, not only that, but, you know, sugar is a very powerful drug and there's mood changes that can happen.
There's addictions that can happen to sugar that, you know, and also excess fat that's garnered in childhood can often last an entire lifetime and really can predict a lot of social problems.
So, I mean, there is a fact called too much ice cream, but you sure as heck don't want your kid You don't want to yell at your kid, stop eating all that goddamn ice cream, and have your kid not eat the ice cream because you're upset.
Because then they're not responding to any facts, they're just appeasing someone who's upset, which is probably even a worse life lesson than letting them have too much ice cream.
Yeah, so...
But if we want to stick to the technical use of the meaning of violent, the word violent in non-violent communication...
That's what it means when you attach judgment to an observation.
And so, again, nonviolent communication is this big body of techniques of how to engage in communication with the people that we're associated with.
And it seems like...
I mean, it almost sounds like what Gandhi used to...
Advocate for with his non-violence that he said if everyone rejected violence, if everyone rejected aggression, then there would be no need to use violence at all, right?
Which is similar to the non-aggression principle, right?
If no one throws the first rock, then there's no need to defend yourself.
And so I think the reason for using violent in the term non-violent communication, probably, I don't know, but maybe it has its origins in this Gandhi idea that if we kept from using violence or judgments in the first place, then that could achieve peace.
So anyway, that's my take on this.
Well, yeah, of course.
I mean, the reason, even if we say that I've got the truth about Gandhi, if people want to look at it on the channel, but Even if we say Gandhi was successful, Gandhi was successful largely because the British decided not to use violence against Gandhi.
I mean, there were no Gandhis in North Korea.
There weren't any in Soviet Russia and there weren't any in Nazi Germany because those who disputed the legitimacy of the ruling government were just killed.
And so, I mean...
Gandhi didn't have any magic.
I mean, Gandhi was facing the British colonial system and they had respect for free speech, more or less.
No, I'm not an imperialist and they were still a government, but as far as, like, Gandhi didn't have any magic source.
It's just that he was facing a relatively non-violent state as opposed to other totalitarian states that were And then there was this big giant war that broke the back of the British treasury and therefore the British withdrew.
You know, in the same way that when the Russians ran out of money, they withdrew from Eastern Europe and everyone thought, oh, Lech Walesa is a great guy.
It's like, well, no, he just happened to be leaning against a tree when it fell over and doesn't get to be a he-man.
So I certainly agree that you don't want to bully people.
And you don't want them to change their behavior because they're afraid of you.
I mean, that's a terrible lesson to teach to anyone.
But bullying, to me, is not the same as judgment.
I mean, you can judge people without having to be bullying towards them.
You can judge situations without having to be bullying towards people.
So, like I was listening to Gabor Mate when we were chatting.
Recently, like really, really listening, and he was talking about how overweight people, you know, the trauma and so on, and I remember making some unkind jokes about Rob Ford, and I thought, you know, he's right.
That was not kind of me.
That was not sympathetic for me.
And, you know, I thought I should do better, right?
I should be more open-hearted and open-minded.
And when I first started working on the truth about David Letterman, I had significant issues with David Letterman, thought he was like a cold, mean guy and so on, and then sort of dug more into his history and all that and ended up with much more sympathy than when I started.
But I think that I can sort of judge myself and say, well, you know, I was not at my kindest when I was making jokes about Rob Ford.
So I can work at fixing that.
But that's a judgment.
Am I hostile towards myself?
Am I, oh, now I'm a bad guy?
No, because that would be kind of hysterical.
So it's just, you know, he's not a philosopher, so he wouldn't necessarily say, ah, well, we need to be really precise with these terms and delineate them and make sure that they compare and contrast with competing terms nicely and all that.
But now, as far as where UPB and nonviolent communications fits in, UPB is about what you do.
Universally preferable behavior is in the realm of actions, not in the realm of thoughts, for reasons that I go into in the book.
And so, it is not...
The realm of human communication, again, if we exclude things like death threats and bomb threats and kidnapping threats or whatever it is, blackmail, right?
If we're just talking about non-criminal...
Human communication, then this does not fall into the realm of ethics.
Things like politeness, being on time, being considerate, and so on, these fall under the category of what is called in the book APA, or aesthetically preferable actions.
It's nicer if people are on time.
It's nicer if people are polite.
It's nicer if people tip their waiter or philosopher.
But you can't enforce that through violence.
You can't shoot people for being late.
You can't shoot people for being rude.
Because these situations are avoidable in a way that somebody initiating force against you isn't.
So in the realm of communication, there's no application of ethics that, other than aesthetics, you could say, well, it's a nicer if, but not.
It can be enforced.
Like, we can enforce that people not rape.
When somebody comes to rape you, you can shoot them.
But if somebody's rude, or if somebody's, quote, judgmental and so on, that's not someone you can use force against.
And so the NVC in its promotion of peaceful, negotiating, win-win, you know, all that nicey stuff, would not cross over.
into the realm of UPB much because UPB deals with the use of violence and although NVC has violence in its title, it cannot categorize mere communication as acts of violence.
It can only judge the violence that may result from the communications and reasonably say, "Look, if you change the way you think, you will change the way you act." But ethics applies to actions, not thoughts, and ethics applies to the initiation of force, not dysfunctional communications.
Wow.
You did it, Stefan.
That was very good.
Because, yeah, I see.
I like the surprise in your voice.
It's a challenge, right?
Go ahead.
It was very good.
Because, yeah, UPB is behavior.
And over here we have communication.
I just...
I was thinking that...
I mean, it sounds like nonviolent communication would be a good practice to be adopted by everyone, and it would probably make things easier and better for the whole of humanity.
But you're right, it's not a behavior.
It's just something, it's a mental process.
So that clarifies it.
Well, technically communication is a behavior.
Because it manifests itself in objective ways.
Thoughts don't manifest themselves in objective ways.
Nobody can tell when I wake up what kind of dream I had.
But if I write a post saying, I think that all people should move to the Antarctic, that is something that is objectively measurable and so on.
So communication is technically a behavior, but it's not a behavior that involves the use of force.
The use of force strips the other person's choice considerably, right?
I mean, if I'm your friend and I'm continually late, you can just not decide to be my friend anymore.
Or you can say, well, I'm going to show up half an hour later because you're half an hour late.
You have many choices and options with me just being late.
You can go.
If we say, oh, I'll meet you at 9 o'clock to a movie and I don't show up till 9.30, you can just go to the movie without me or whatever.
It doesn't cut down.
Me being rude or me being inconsiderate, it doesn't really cut down on your choices that much.
I'm not forcing myself.
My being late on you.
Whereas if I've got a gun to your head saying, give me your wallet, I'm forcing, right?
I'm really limiting your choices.
Give me the wallet or fight or whatever, right?
I mean, I'm really limiting your choices.
And so, although communication is...
Obviously, technically in action, it doesn't fall into the initiation of force that strips other people of their free will and gives them those bare binary choices rather than the full 360 of choices that rudeness still provides people.
So, again, I talked about NVC before, so I don't want to get into it in much detail again.
I can't endorse it because he's not a philosopher.
He's...
He's kind of like a mystic as far as I understand it.
Like he believes in a lot of otherworldly woo-woo stuff and Marshall Rosenberg.
And so I'm always a bit concerned when, you know, he might be a good pilot, but he's still blindfolded.
So I can't recommend getting on the plane.
Okay.
Yeah, very good.
Thanks.
That was helpful.
All right.
Thank you very much for the call.
It was really enjoyable and feel free to call back anytime.
All right.
Thanks.
Bye-bye.
All right.
Thank you so much, Mariana.
Yeah.
Bye.
Thanks, Mariano.
Up next we've got Pangur, who is asking, I'm feeling stuck.
It's been about two years since my significant other left.
We have two children, one of whom is an adult, and one on her own, and one who lives with me.
After finding you, I began to parent peacefully for the last year and a half.
The problem I am having is determining what to do when my needs and my child's needs are in conflict.
I am trying to heal myself and prevent as much damage as I can to my child.
How do I determine when the benefit of my long-term well-being overrides her short-term needs for her long-term benefits?
All right.
Nice to meet you.
How are you doing?
Nervous as hell, but doing all right.
How are you doing?
I am terrifying.
It's important to remember that.
Absolutely intimidating.
I have a lot of respect for you, so it's just kind of an honor to actually be talking to you and have you take a question.
Well, I appreciate the call in, and what a great topic.
We just talked about mismatches of needs and how to solve them through communication.
Way to stay with the trend of the show.
Good job.
And how old is your daughter?
Is it daughter?
Yeah, I have two daughters.
The one who's living with me is nine now.
The other one's 19.
Right.
Okay.
Now, let's just talk about the nine-year-old since it's probably where it's more of a challenge.
Can you think of an example where there was a mismatch of needs?
Well, I mean, it's currently kind of going on.
I have a physical disability, and seven years I've been trying to get treatment for it, but I'm not responding to the treatments.
Do you want to say what it is?
I certainly don't want to probe, and we can move on if you don't want to, but I'm just curious.
No, that's fine.
It's two things.
It's psoriatic arthritis, which is a form of rheumatoid arthritis.
And then I also have, it's called bullis emphysema, which is a congenital emphysema.
I was either born with it or during puberty developed it.
But I tend to get a lot of lung infections.
And the lung infection part is actually keeping me from a couple of the treatments for the psoriatic arthritis because of how it lowers your immune system and you become more prone to lung infections.
And my RA feels that The other options out there would be not if I would die, but when I would die.
But we've tried everything else that he feels is safe for me to do.
And so just for those who don't know, and correct me where I go astray, my knowledge in this is as limited as my knowledge in most other things, but given that arthritis, if I remember rightly, is when your body...
It uses the immune system to attack your joints.
Correct.
That anything which lowers your immune system would also reduce the arthritis.
But, of course, if you're prevalent to infections, I remember this from going through chemo, well, it's not good, right?
Right.
That's correct.
And I have it, even for the arthritis that I have, I have it on the severe end of the spectrum because it's in over 90% of my joints.
So it's constant pain, right?
Oh, yeah.
It's constant pain.
I'm so sorry.
That's horrifying.
And I hear huge sympathies.
Nature's a bitch.
What can I tell you?
Yeah.
But, I mean, you know, I'm coming to terms with it.
And I really thank your bomb in the brain series for a lot of it.
Just because...
Because of my childhood, I can see how that may be affecting my health.
I'm really not that old.
I'm late 40s.
I'm glad to hear you say that.
I'm in that bracket too.
Not that old, I hope.
That's a lot of disability to be dealing with in the late 40s right now.
Yeah, yeah.
And what ended up happening is I started looking into all-natural treatments after the last round.
It just didn't work.
I mean, it wasn't even effective just for the psoriasis.
So I started looking into all-natural treatments, and I found something, and it actually works for me, but it's illegal in my state.
Yeah.
No, no.
Don't you understand?
They're protecting you.
Yeah.
I'm so sorry.
And just, we don't have to go into this in detail, but just for those who are listening, you have an ACE or an adverse childhood experience of nine.
Correct.
Which is basically like other than a direct airstrike from a meteor made of acid, nothing that could have happened bad in your childhood didn't happen.
Is that a fair way to put it?
Yeah, I was in war zone.
I have PTSD and a panic disorder, major depression, and general anxiety.
I was also a rape victim.
And this was as a child, is that right, or was that older?
No, well, I had a foster brother who was six years older than I was, and he began raping me when I was six for about two years.
And then when I was 11, I was on a family vacation with another family, and they had a 17-year-old daughter, and she forced me into sex when I was 11.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's kind of the other...
And I just, I mean, that's horrendous stuff.
I... Have massive sympathies for you.
I mean, the lack of protection, the lack of guidance, the lack of security, I mean, these all have, as you know, as I know, just very long-lasting effects.
So I'm incredibly sorry, of course, that you went through all of that monstrous stuff.
Thanks.
Thanks.
I'm still working through it.
And that's kind of the other thing, too, is I've had several...
I moved out of state for about seven years, and then I moved back.
And I was doing very well out of state.
When I came back, it was just...
I've had several mental health therapists tell me that what I really need to do is move.
Because there's localized triggers, is that right?
Yeah, yeah.
One of them put in, it's like, I'm trying to support my significant other, two kids, a house and everything, and having an army of demons attacking me constantly.
So she was like the best.
Yeah, and I just sort of wanted to point out that when I sort of say to people, hey, you don't have to spend time with abusive people.
It's sort of like saying to a guy who was repeatedly mauled by tigers, you don't have to have a tiger as a pet.
You know, like we would all understand that if you're repeatedly mauled by tigers, maybe not being around tigers would probably be a reasonably decent idea, right?
In the same way that we say to soldiers who are suffering from PTSD, you know, don't prop your eyeballs open with toothpicks and watch Saving Private Ryan over and over again.
Probably not going to help.
So these localized triggers, they're sort of outside of our control.
Because they occur very much at the spinal level.
Not to pick on your sciatica or whatever, but they occur at the level of...
beyond the level of conscious control.
You can't unprogram your body to...
I mean, you can certainly deal with PTSD and so on, but if you've been mauled by lions for five years, you can't not feel...
You can never, ever be in different alliance.
That's all I'm basically saying.
Right.
Well, I had one therapist say, kind of like, I can recognize when I have the flashbacks, but the one thing she's like, what you have trouble controlling is that she called it the whisper.
That self-talk that you were doing at that time to get yourself through it, which was not healthy, because it was more the, you know, because I'm a bad person, and that starts whispering in the background, and that's harder.
It was probably healthy at the time, though, right?
I mean, because that was kind of what was necessary to get you through.
Because if you start really blaming those around you, they tend to escalate their abuse.
Correct.
So to internalize is a way of just keeping yourself safe.
I'd rather me punch me than someone else punch me.
Correct.
Correct.
So, and to catch that, and I actually, I've been, like, thinking about it in terms of bombing the brain.
It's like, because most of my, well, a lot of the abuse that I suffered was before I was, you know, six, eight years old.
The attempts on my life and everything else.
It's just, my brain just wired itself that way, and when I get in contact, those pathways free open.
Yeah, and it's funny how, like in college campuses these days, there's this, I don't know if it comes out of a whole generation of helicopter parenting, but there's this, oh, don't let people be exposed to arguments or speech that might upset them.
Include trigger warnings if people are talking about rape statistics or something like that.
I mean, if they're Christina Hoff Summers, sorry, not if they're Andrea Dworkin.
And there is, for a lot of people, there's this recognition, oh, these triggers and so on, right?
But particularly for men, but, you know, for victims of child abuse, when we say, look, I need a break from my environment, people are like, oh, that's, you know, that's bad, right?
So apparently, rape statistics are trigger warnings that you need safe rooms and teddy bears for, but abusive families, you should just be able to will your way out of it, right?
Right.
And I don't know how many people, you know, say to me, like, well, you should be able to make it here.
There's no reason why you can't overcome it here.
Here, what does here mean?
My home.
My hometown, where I'm living right now.
My ex was like...
I tried to get her to move a couple of times.
And at first she'd be like, yeah, you know, that'd be fine.
And then when it comes down to it, she wouldn't want to move.
Now, sorry, when you say your hometown, does this mean the town where the abuse occurred?
Yes.
Right, right.
You know, and her big thing was, it doesn't make any difference.
You should be able to overcome it wherever you're at.
Yeah, by which logic, women should never ever be hostile in divorces, right?
Right, absolutely.
Because you should just be able to overcome it and not be hostile.
In fact, you should never divorce a guy because, you know, just overcome it and whatever, right?
Sure.
Oh, I know.
It's good for goose, not good for gander.
Right.
Yeah.
So, but, you know, when it comes to my daughter, I'm trying to peaceful parent.
I really love...
I love that.
I love...
I just...
I wanted to have a happier life than I had.
I'm sorry.
Of course, of course.
No, no, don't worry about that.
Go on.
You don't want to pass it on, of course, right?
Right.
I mean, I've always been hyper, especially because I had daughters, and knowing that I was sexually abused, I was always, like, hyper-vigilant about, you know...
Not passing that on because you hear that all the time.
Although that was a little bit detrimental to my older daughter because then there was a lack of touch that was appropriate.
So she didn't get a lot of touch from me where my younger daughter is now getting more of a father kind of thing.
I want her to be happy and I know right now she's in a tough situation with her mother being gone and I talk with her all the time.
Any parent out there, I recommend the parental job performance review because it was the scariest thing I ever did.
Wait, you mean that's not an official thing?
It's just something I've talked about, I'm sure other people have as well, where you sit down and say, all right, we've had enough of a 180, let's do a 360, how am I doing, right?
Right, absolutely.
I was talking, sorry, just to interrupt, but just so people know, like I sort of practiced what I preached, like I was talking about, we were talking about some fictional characters in a book that we're reading, my daughter and I are reading together.
We were talking about some fictional characters, and like most stories, most characters in stories, they have lessons to learn.
You know, you've got to learn how to be X, Y, or Z. One's got to overcome a bad temper, and one's got to overcome vanity, and one's got to overcome meanness, and so on, right?
And I said to my daughter, I said, okay, well, We went through, you know, what does this friend of yours have to overcome?
And what do you have to overcome?
And I said, oh, and what does daddy have to change?
What does daddy, if I was a character in this story, what lesson would I have to learn?
We had a great conversation about stuff.
You know, it is important.
It is scary, I guess, if you don't do it often, but it is important.
The first time was really scary, but after that, I really enjoy it, actually, because it helps me improve my fathering.
But I kind of got stuck in this.
Right now, she has a very big need for safety and security and familiar things, because she's kind of feeling torn apart going between two houses.
This is the nine-year-old?
Yeah.
Right, right, right.
And when did you and your wife split up?
About two years ago.
Right, sorry, you mentioned that at the beginning.
Okay, got it.
Got it.
And so what's the kind of conflict that you have with your nine-year-old that you think philosophy might be able to help you with?
Well, it's basically like, okay, I've asked her if she wants to move and she doesn't want to move.
She's feeling, you know, she's trying to get her feeling secure, you know.
And I've been noticing these past couple of years, she gets really kind of clingy on me.
And so for me to move...
Which would be better for my health.
I don't know in the long run.
I mean, I think in the long run, having a healthy dad mentally and physically is a net plus for her.
But I don't know at her age right now if moving, you know, and part of it was also, and this has changed in the last two weeks, but part of it was because she doesn't like her mother and she does not She spends very little time with her mother.
It's three days a week, like after school till dinner time.
Oh.
Yeah.
And she was sleeping over there, but she slept over there once a week.
But when she was sleeping over there, she was constantly calling me at like 2 in the morning because she couldn't sleep.
And she'd be very frightened.
And what was she frightened of?
She just felt alone.
It's not like her mother wasn't there, but her mother was sleeping.
I know it goes back to how their interaction was while She was growing up.
Her mother napped a lot.
And so she was always kind of left, not on her own because my older daughter was still living at home, but like mom's not really the reliable one.
Yeah, she also did a woman's amateur sport.
So she was out of the house like night times, five, six days a week, and then they would have a travel team and she would go out on weekends to different places.
So while she was a stay at home mom, I don't think she was very interactive.
I mean, I was working most of the time, but when I would come home, you know, dinner wouldn't be ready.
She'd be sleeping.
My daughter would be, you know, being babysat by the TV or something.
Right.
So she doesn't really have a very strong connection with her mother, which I, you know, try to encourage.
But up until a couple of weeks ago, for me to move out of state would be custody battle and family court and But you can move without moving out of state, right?
No, I really need to move out of state.
Is it the accent that is triggering?
I mean, how many of you follow that?
I've tried moving different places in the state, and some of the triggers are just environmental, almost like climate.
I noticed when I moved, and I didn't move that far, but when I moved out of state, I moved about six hours away.
But when a thunderstorm would roll in, the first time a thunderstorm rolled in when I moved out of state, I was bracing myself for something that didn't happen.
And it didn't smell right, and it didn't feel right.
And it just knocked whatever that is.
I don't even know what that is.
It knocked it out.
It's your autonomic nervous system trying to protect you, right?
Right.
Right.
So...
That's why I'm trying to move out of state.
And also, when I'm thinking of moving out of state, I'm also trying to maximize my success.
So I'm looking at places that are growing, that are economically expanding and stuff like that.
Even though I have a disability, I still...
When I moved out of state to this other city, it was just being in a place that was growing and not dying.
Oh, yeah.
You want to try and find the Colorado of Atlas Shrugged or something, right?
Someplace where there's some vigor and energy, right?
Not the ghost town emptying itself even of the ghosts, right?
Right, absolutely.
And that was my big worry, was that her mother would take this to family court, and then I'm trying to look out for my daughter.
My daughter says what she wants is to live with me, to be with me.
She likes the way I parent.
And so that's her need, and I feel that's a legitimate need.
It's not her fault that her mother and I Well, yeah, and tragically, because you're not in a free will situation, philosophy can't do much for you.
Right.
Right, because, you know, you're in a legal situation.
Well, see, that's changed.
I'm afraid the lawyers would win over the philosophers.
No, I understand that.
But what's changed in the past two weeks is actually, and this is frustrating to me, but her mother has said two things.
There was two things I asked of her.
One was to go to couples counseling, and then the other, I had been asking her to please move out of state.
Well, she's now agreeing to both of those things.
Oh, the mom is willing to move out of state.
Yeah, now.
But still live in separate homes.
Of course, yeah.
But she said she's willing to move out of state and I was dumbfounded because at the time I was actually going into mourning because she had told me she had moved on and started dating.
I was kind of mourning the relationship because for the past two years I've been kind of trying to work it out with her but part of it was I wanted to see some things from her and I wasn't seeing them so now she's giving them to me but she is like she told me she like I moved out but I never moved on but now she moved on and I was shutting the relationship down inside myself and dealing with you know kind of mourning that loss And then she turned around and puts
these two nuggets in front of me and I'm just kind of like I mean I'm arranging therapy because I think that would be the first thing to do anyways but then if that clears that hurdle of now I don't have to worry about legally moving out of state you know don't worry about a legal battle because if she's willing to move then fine That still, is that the best thing for me to do, you know, take my daughter out of that?
I've been trying to think of a win-win situation for her.
Like, if I get to a place where, you know, maybe the cost of living is cheaper or whatever, and I can And then her mother stopped that.
But we had talked about different types of schooling, and she really was interested in Montessori.
So I was kind of like, well, here's maybe the win-win.
If I can move somewhere where I can afford to send you to Montessori, is that kind of an offer that you make to make a job?
Or is that too big of an offer?
I don't know.
Am I just making too big of a deal of it?
I just don't want to hurt her.
I want her to grow and to flourish and to be content and happy with herself and her life.
Right.
Well, can you move to a state where the treatment for your ailments, your disability is more accessible?
Yeah.
See, I could do that.
Because to me, once I get this, my body under control...
My ability to earn more money is going to increase because I'm not going to be in constant pain all the time.
Even if I go back to an employer, because I've owned my own businesses also throughout my life, even if I go back to an employer, I can at least say, yes, I can show up to work these days, you know?
Right, right, right.
Because now I sometimes wake up in the morning and I'll have a flare-up and I can't trust myself without, you know, a ton of painkillers and, you know, I barely get my daughter off to school.
So, yeah.
So, I mean, it would be almost a panacea for myself.
Right.
Well, I mean, it seems to me that if it's hugely better for you, and it's something your daughter wants, and it's something that your wife or ex-wife is willing to exceed to, I think we've got a plan, right?
I mean, I think that's...
I don't want to say no-brainer, because that's always kind of an insulting...
Phrase.
It's always easier to see things from the outside.
Well, not always.
Sometimes.
Because I'm from the inside.
But it sounds to me like you've got an avenue to a much better life to where not just you have access to the medicine, but your mind space is so much better.
You're more available to your daughter.
And your wife is willing to go to couples counseling, which if you have a chance of resurrecting the relationship, sounds like a great plan.
Well, I don't know if it's going to go that far.
I mean, I always hope.
If she works, you know, if people make that choice, then there's almost nothing that they can't do.
If they make that choice, you know, if they say, I need to change, I need to grow, I need a trophy more important than some sport, which is the trophy called being a great wife and mother and person and all that.
So if they make the choice.
You know, I mean, I remember once I had a friend many years ago, and he was going through a divorce.
And I don't know whether this is a good or bad sort of clinical practice, what do I know?
But he said that he went to couples counseling to try and save the marriage.
And the therapist, after the first session, took him aside and said, listen, Your wife is not going to change.
You need to find a way to live with her the way she is, or you need to move on.
But I'm telling you, your wife is not going to change.
And she didn't.
Again, I don't know what mojo goes on in the therapist's brain, but that was the therapist's assessment.
Therapist turned out to be correct.
I hope it wasn't a self-fulfilling prophecy.
But somebody who's really dedicated to not changing...
Which seems to sometimes be the majority of the population, by golly, they won't change, right?
Somebody dedicated to not running a marathon, they're really good at not running a marathon.
Alright, another day, I haven't run a marathon.
Good for me.
My bucket list is still batting a thousand.
But if people do decide to change, and you know, it's hard to know what's suddenly going to click for people.
I mean, gosh, if I knew that, I had people walking around the planet with a big giant clicker.
But I read a blog, like, I don't know, this has got to be like 20 years, no, 25 years ago, whatever, I read some guy's blog who, he woke up, what happened was, and this is, you know, back in the day, probably when you could rationally discriminate in the healthcare system, but he had, he was an ex-college athlete, I think, he kind of let himself go, and he got a A message from his insurance company, because he went and got blood work and weighed and all that, and they said, dude, you're heading for an early grade.
Your health insurance is going to go up considerably, because you're overweight, your blood pressure is bad, your heart is bad, and all your liver is fatty, and just all this kind of crap, right?
And some people are like, those idiots don't know what they're talking about.
Thinness is a conspiracy.
I'm going to keep going on.
But this guy was like, whoa.
Kind of a wake-up call, right?
I mean, I don't know.
I think six years ago, I lost 20 or 30 pounds, and I'm like one of the 2 or 3 percent of people who's actually kept it off and lost even a little bit more.
And it's just because, you know, you go like, well, I don't want to be that guy.
If it's only a pound a year, I've still got hopefully 40 or years.
I'm at the end of my life, 230 pounds or whatever, 235.
So, you don't know what's suddenly going to click for people.
I don't know if it's just a matter of intelligence or But I think that self-reflection and meditation and yoga and all these things can be really good.
Therapy, of course, as you know, I'm a huge fan of.
But you don't know what's going to make people click.
One day people may just, you know, they can just wake up and say, you know, I mean, I don't think you wait forever because, you know, life's short.
You've got to make irrational choices.
But I don't know the answer as to why some people change and some people don't.
It was sort of the very first call-in show we ever did on this show.
We talked about that, and I'm not sure that I'm...
I think that in the lack of information, people can't change.
How many people in the 17th century are going to sail to America?
Well, 0% of those who don't have a map or know that America exists will ever end up sailing to America, right?
But if America exists, and here's a map, and here's a sextant, and here's a compass, and here's how you get there over the ocean...
Well, okay, then more and more people are going to go.
The more they know the destination and the journey, or at least the route, the more people are going to go.
How many people take trips that they wouldn't otherwise have taken because GPS, right?
It's just not as annoying and complicated, right?
I mean, and yeah, the GPS, it saves gas and it costs gas at the same time.
So this is why I try to sort of put out as much information as I can about self-knowledge and virtue and Therapy and self-knowledge, like all the stuff that I've sort of been yammering on about because at least then people have a choice where before maybe they didn't.
And so the fact that you're going to go, has your wife or ex-wife or whatever, has she been to therapy before?
Actually, when we first met, she was in therapy, and then she stopped, and then she became extremely resistant to therapy.
What did you do to that poor young lady?
That's what she did to me.
You see, with that attitude, how's it going to work out for you with this woman?
Well, that's, I see, and I'm very, I'm really suspicious at this point, and I'm trying to overcome that of the offer, because, you know, when I've asked before, and it was, I'm not going, because they're going to say, I'm crazy, and I'm going to have to change.
And I'm like, yeah, but doesn't that mean something to you?
Well, that's, you know, sometimes in jokes, there is a huge amount of truth.
Yeah.
Right.
So I am kind of, I don't know if she's just doing this to kind of prove to herself that she gave it all she got, you know, gave it all she could, and now she's putting it to bed.
Or, you know, she told me she's doing it because she cares about me and she wants me to heal.
Oh, so it's for you to heal.
Nothing to do with anything.
She might need to change it.
That's my fear.
Yeah, I get it.
I wouldn't necessarily try and overcome all of your skepticism because it might be there to help you.
I'm going to therapy just for you.
It's like, I'm going to take up running with you so your heart gets better.
Wait, doesn't this have any effect on your heart at all?
No, it's all for you.
I don't think you understand how this works.
Well, that's why I said, you know, I don't want to call it demand, but when we were still together and having problems when she was making, you know, her Demands on me.
I said, well, I think we need to go to therapy, but you have to go with an open heart.
And I would get the, I'm not going and everything else.
And even after we left, I still wanted, let's go to therapy and see, you know, I wanted to do everything before I throw in the towel.
So, um, that's why I look, I mean, but even, sorry to interrupt, but even if you guys don't end up back together, You know, the great thing about therapy is it brings you closure one way or the other, right?
Right, correct.
You know, therapy is like, if you can't defeat the alien spaceship with a nuke, you don't have anything else, right?
Right.
Okay, let's try a pea shooter, right?
I mean, when you basically bring your biggest weapon to bear on an enemy, this sounds like confrontational, I don't mean it that way, but when you bring your biggest, if you can't defeat your biggest enemy with your biggest weapon, Then you can at least retire from fighting, knowing that you didn't have some backup in your back pocket that could have taken them out, right?
Right.
And also, for me, I want to do it anyways because I don't know if I'm missing something.
I'm not sitting here thinking that the way I feel and the way I want things and everything else is correct.
Well, you certainly have not been dissing her quite a bit in this conversation.
I mean, you do it in a very obviously sophisticated way because you're a smart guy and listen to the show, but yeah, I mean, it's the first time you said, well, I could maybe change something.
But the great thing with therapy is even if you don't end up back together, one or two other possibilities is going to occur.
Either she's going to grow and change.
You don't end up back together, but co-parenting gets a whole lot easier.
Yeah.
Right?
Because you've still got at least a decade to go as a co-parent, right?
And I think people who decide to get divorced should absolutely go to therapy together because they've got another 10 or 20 years or more of co-parenting to go through.
Correct.
Right?
As you know, kids are like the ultimate soul Velcro.
It's like, it's the roach motel of marriage when you have kids.
You can check in, but you can't ever check out.
Right.
So, let's say you go to therapy, either you get back together and you're all happy, which is great, or you don't get back together, but you're better co-parents, which is definitely a positive outcome, or she's nuts.
Yeah.
In which case, you get closure, right?
Right.
Right.
Or you're not, in which case she gets cluttered on.
That's true.
It's one of these, you know, let's stop stumbling around the room, let's turn the light on.
Now, you might turn the light on and it's full of zombies, but at least they won't take you by surprise.
Right.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah, so that and the moving out of state was just kind of, it threw me for a big loop.
It made me extremely happy, and then I came crashing down going, well, wait a minute, what the hell?
Why now?
So, as she says...
Well, no, man, take what you can get, right?
I mean, if it's going to get you closer to your pain meds, or, sorry, to your treatment meds, so much the better.
I mean, it's hard.
You know, anybody, everybody who's alive, who's a parent has parented with a headache, and I'm not, please understand, I'm not comparing a mere headache to what you're facing, but it's hard to be the fun dad when you've got a splitting headache, right?
Right, right.
And, you know, yours is more like a continual migraine, right?
So...
It's really hard to be who you want to be with your daughters when you're in constant pain and when there's this uncertainty.
You know, people who, like I have this little forearm ache, right, carried my daughter too long for a couple of days a little while back.
And, you know, I'm waking up, I'm like, oh, how's my arm?
And then throughout the day, I'm like, oh, how's my arm?
And again, this is like.00001% of what you're facing, but it consumes your mind, right?
Like, how am I going to be tomorrow?
How am I today?
Is it better?
Is it worse?
What's going to happen?
It's not just the physical pain, it's also the mental preoccupation that occurs with this kind of stuff that makes you much less available to other people.
So, man, if you can get to the meds and you can get to non-triggering environments and your wife's willing, And your daughter's, yeah, go.
I can't, you know.
And, you know, maybe it's a trap, but where you're in is a trap.
So at least there's like, maybe it's only 50% chance of trap.
Right now, you got 100, right?
Right.
So, but if my daughter is not willing to go, do I just override that?
Wait, wait, your youngest?
Yeah, my youngest.
She doesn't want to go.
And why doesn't she want to go?
Right now, she's just feeling insecure in her life.
Well, no, come on.
That's a bit abstract.
Is it like she's got friends that she wants to stay?
Is there a neighborhood that she wants to stay?
Is there a sports team she's on?
There's got to be something specific.
She's not on any sports teams.
When I talk to her, her biggest complaint is she doesn't like being...
Most of all, she doesn't like going over to her mother's.
And when I asked her about moving from here, because even the first time, because I don't need a three-bedroom house anymore.
And I was just looking to pare down just to kind of help with some stuff.
And she just started getting very upset about moving because this is...
This is the one place that she still feels like home.
And she's told me, she's like, she has a hard time calling it her home because, you know, technically she has a home with her mom.
And I'm like, but, you know, just say my home.
Because she keeps referring to your home.
And I'm like, well, it's your home too.
But she doesn't feel comfortable.
Sorry, let me give you a speech that I would give to her.
Okay.
And, you know, obviously I'm not trying to write your script, but this is the speech that I would give to her.
I would say something like this.
Look, you've had it rough.
I mean, you've got a divorce that's two years fresh.
You've got a mom that you're not enjoying to go and see.
And, by the way, the fact that you don't want to go and spend time with your mom is something that we need to sit down and talk about with your mom.
Because that is not, I'm sure, what your mom wants.
And we need to find a way...
That you can feel more happy and more comfortable being with your mom.
Your mom and I, the first thing we do is, you know, your mom and I are going to go to couples therapy.
She's agreed to do it.
We're going to go and do it, and as part of that couples therapy, I'm going to bring up that we need to find ways that it's more inviting for you.
I don't want you to get on the hook.
I don't want you to get in trouble, but this is something that needs to solve because you're still over there three days a week.
So that is something I am absolutely committed to working on.
I don't want it to be taken for granted that you just don't have fun with mom and there's nothing we can do about it.
That's not fair, right?
So I am fully dedicated to trying to find a way to get your needs met.
Mm-hmm.
With your mom, so that when you're over there, you're not calling me at 2 o'clock in the morning, but you're happy.
You know, that's my job.
It's not your job, right?
I'm the adult, you're the kid, so it's not your job to do that.
It's my job, and I'm going to work on that 150%.
That's number one.
Number two, we have, like, you're nine, and you shouldn't have to deal with these decisions.
You really shouldn't.
I mean, it sucks.
I don't want you to, like, I don't want to say this is equivalent because I am the adult.
I sure as hell don't want to be dealing with arthritis and lung infections half my waking days.
So there are things that happen in life that suck, but they don't have to suck as much as we think they do sometimes.
There's an old quote that says, there's nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
There's some truth in that.
It's not always what happens to you.
It is to some degree What you think of it and what you do with it.
I can't be the father that I want to be if I'm in pain all the time.
You've had twisted ankles.
You've had headaches.
Imagine if that was just a twisted ankle and a headache all day, every day.
You would not be the person that you are now.
I'm a shadow.
I'm like a ghost.
I'm like a Nazgul in my own body.
I can't be who I want to be.
You know those mornings when I've got a bad.
I can barely get you off to school.
I mean, I'm just not having the kind of life that I want.
I can't have the kind of job that I want.
I can't have the kind of socializing that I want.
I can't be the kind of parent that I want.
And, you know, sometimes you pitch up tent and then there's bare shit.
And you're like, oh, well, we thought this is where we were going to spend the night.
But guess what?
Bearcrap.
So we're going to unpack up the tent and go someplace else.
Now, you want to stay.
And look, the last thing I want to do is muscle that away.
And, you know, I don't want to do that at all.
And I'm not saying, like, I don't want to do that, but I will.
Like, I'm so dedicated to not muscling away your wishes that there's so many things that we can do to find out How we can both get what we want.
I am not going to muscle you into doing this because that's just being a bully.
And it's just using, hey, I'm bigger and I have more legal rights and you have to come with me.
I don't want to treat you like you're a mole.
I go on vacation, the mole comes on vacation.
That's not fair.
But the reality is that I can't work here.
I can't be the father of the one.
I'm in constant pain.
There's a stupid government...
That maybe some guy on the podcast will tell you all about at some point in the future.
But there's a stupid government that won't let me get the medicine that I need.
It's illegal.
Like, I go to jail for taking medicine.
I drive two hours, and I'm a good guy for taking medicine.
This is the crazy world we live in, but that's not my fault.
Right?
I didn't make that.
I didn't vote for it.
I'm in charge of it.
I didn't pass it as a politician.
That's just the reality that I have to deal with, you know?
Pitch up your tent.
Oh, bear crap.
Let's keep moving, right?
And...
But we have to have a principle that we have between us that I want you to get familiar with as you get older.
And I haven't always modeled this principle or demonstrated it, and neither has your mother, but we're working on it.
And that principle is, there's no ruler in our relationship.
There's no ruler in our relationship.
Our relationship, I dare say, ought to be a form of benevolent family anarchy.
No ruler.
Your needs don't rule me.
My needs don't rule you.
So that means that we don't get to say, well, I don't want to do this.
And that's the end of it because that's making your needs or your preferences the ruler of the whole family.
And that's way too much power for a nine-year-old.
And frankly, it's way too much power for a 49-year-old.
So I don't have that power and you don't have that power.
So the mere expression of needs cannot be the physics of how the balls bounce in this family.
My needs, your needs, mom's needs, they don't make things work.
Because all that means is that you only have to have needs, you don't have to negotiate.
That you're there and therefore the other person can't be there.
You have your needs and therefore I can't have any needs.
And we don't want that.
We don't want that as a family, that is not how, I mean that's exactly what went wrong With me and your mom.
One person had needs and the other person had to switch off their soul or fight to the death.
Right?
Not much fun.
Not much fun.
So we have to find a way that we can get our needs met without someone being in charge.
And I don't know exactly what that looks like in terms of how Or what needs get met, right?
But it means that we have to keep looking until we can find something that everyone can live with.
Now, if you get everything you want, you won't get everything you want, right?
This is the paradox, right?
So my daughter, if you get everything you want and you get to stay right here, then you get a dad who's in pain, a dad who's frustrated, a dad who's unable to have a career, right?
And therefore, you don't get the dad that you want.
You can have the home that you want, but you can't have the home that you want and the dad that you want.
You know, I hope that I rank somewhere on the equivalency scale of a three-bedroom house in your heart, but you can't get both.
Now, I want to find a way that you can get a house that you want and a dad that you want.
I mean, clearly, that would be better, right?
And so instead of saying, well, your needs win and my needs lose, oh, self-sacrifice is going to be my cross that I will nail myself to from here to eternity, all I'm teaching you is that you don't have to negotiate.
You just have to have needs and sit until people, like a rock and a stream, it just goes around you.
That's not going to be healthy for you, and that's not the kind of relationship that you want.
Because if I let you do that to me, tragically, you're going to end up with a template called, well, the way to get along with men is to have needs and have them change.
Which means you're going to end up with some spineless, annoying, passive-aggressive weenie guy for a husband or a boyfriend, and that's going to drive you crazy.
And you're going to be like, oh gosh, why is this going on?
Men are like this.
It's like, nope, that would be my fault.
So I don't want that for you.
So I don't know what the answer is, which is the great thing.
I know the answer isn't you get your needs met and I don't.
I also know the answer is not, I get my needs met and you don't.
Or mom, or like, nobody's in charge.
Nobody rules here.
It's a negotiation among largely equals.
You know, you're still nine, so there is that annoying, your brain still has 15 years for maturity to go, but nobody's in charge.
Now, if nobody is in charge, and let's pretend that this was some other family, or some other problem, you know, like these problems you read about in these puzzle books.
What could be some potential solutions where we could sort of figure out how this family, this other family, might get people's needs met without anyone being in charge, without anyone being the ruler?
And then maybe you could start...
She'd talk about how much she loves the house and all that and how much she wants to stay.
There might be some tears and so on.
And yeah, let her express her needs.
You know, one of the great liberating things in a relationship is...
To let somebody else express their needs, express their thoughts, express their feelings, and don't feel like it's something you have to change or fix or react to in some particular way.
But just, yeah, you're feeling sad.
You know, I played Monopoly with my daughter the other day.
She loves, like all kids do, and, you know, adults as well, Boardwalk and Park Place, right?
Because they are the ritzy ones, the deep blues of infinite renting.
And she didn't get them.
And she was sad.
Right?
And, I don't know, I got Park West and Boardwalk, Park Place and Boardwalk, and she was sad about that.
And I'm like, oh, tell me, you know, these are really special for you, right?
This is how you won the last two games, was having these, and you really like to win, just like Daddy does.
Right?
So, you know, she was telling me all about how she felt so sad about not having these.
And I'm like, I don't, I'm like, here, let me give them to you.
Right?
I mean, that's not the solution.
That's just a way of squelching her feelings.
But I can be really curious and want to know about her thoughts and feelings without feeling like I must fix them.
It's not like she's walking into the ER with a broken bone.
Yeah, fix that!
But she can have her feelings of sadness and apprehension and all that.
And those are important and you need to know what those are.
But those aren't the rulers.
Anarchy is not a political philosophy fundamentally.
It's a relationship philosophy.
And this is why I have a book on relationships called Real-Time Relationships, which people can get for free.
Anarchy is a relationship philosophy that no one is in charge and everything's a negotiation.
You can say to her, look, if you have, well, your needs rule, obviously they can't rule all the time, because then I don't even exist, right?
So it means that if you and I are going to have the standard, it has to apply to both of us, in which case both of our needs rule, which means in our conflict, like when we have differing or opposing needs, we have no solution.
But that's exactly where we need the greatest solution, which is nobody rules.
Everything is a negotiation.
And curiosity is And open-mindedness are the solutions.
We don't know what we can come up with that is going to be so much better than anything we can think of now.
The real win-win, right?
Right now, all that's being proposed is like this win-lose.
But we don't know what we could come up with where we look back and we say, man, you'll look back and say, man, I'm so glad I didn't get what I want back then, right?
Yeah.
This is a funny thing in life.
I don't know if you've experienced this.
I certainly have so many times.
Something I really, really wanted.
I wanted it so badly.
I wanted it so badly.
And I didn't get it.
And now I look back and I say, oh, thank God I didn't get what I wanted.
My God, I'm so glad I didn't get what I wanted.
If I'd have got what I wanted, my life would be, well, not as great as it is now.
And I'm incredibly glad to have not gotten stuff at times because it had me keep looking and keep exploring and keep growing.
And, you know, thank goodness that, you know, some woman I asked out years ago who I could see in hindsight now would have been directly the wrong person and she said no.
And at the time I was like, oh, that's bad.
Now I've met my wife, I'm like, thank you for saying no.
I want to send, you know, massive Hallmark cards back through time to the universe saying, thanks for saying no.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah, it makes sense.
Maybe I'm just being overly vigilant when it comes to her.
What I don't want her to do is I don't want her to...
I see how she interacts with her mother and she tends to placate her mother.
She gives in with her mother.
Wait, why are we bringing in the mom here?
We're talking about you and her.
I have a fear that she'll do that to me.
And I don't want her to do that.
Wait, wait.
She'll placate you?
Yeah.
Like, I'll, you know, be discussing something with her.
And I'm not saying she does this.
It's just a fear because I see her interactions with her mother.
And I'll talk to her afterwards.
I'm like, did you really want it?
No, no, I didn't want to do that.
But I didn't.
I knew she wasn't going to relinquish.
Well, but you've got to trust your instincts as a father, right?
And if you suspect that she is placating you, then say, hey, no placating, right?
Right.
And, you know, maybe I'm just being overly sensitive.
I will say this, that you can't play both sides of the tennis court, right?
You can't serve and then run around and hit the ball and run and hit back, right?
That's another form of erasure of the other, and it comes out of a need for self-protection that comes from Obviously, a grim and gruesome past history that you had as a child.
But you can't play both sides of the tennis court.
So if you're like, well, if I say this, what if the other person says this?
And if the other person says this, I say that?
That's you trying to play both sides of the tennis court.
But you can only play both sides of the tennis court if there's not someone else on the other side saying, hey, let me hit it back, right?
So you can only state your own needs, but the moment you start trying to double and triple guess other people, Then you're not in the relationship talking to that person with an open mind and heart at the time.
And, you know, your instincts are, you know, probably going to be quite accurate since you notice her placating her mother, you'll know that she has that capacity, so you'll ask her.
Don't placate me, right?
I don't want it.
I mean, don't treat me that way because that's not respectful to me or to you.
And if something does happen, So, you don't feel that she's placating you.
She promises she's not placating you.
And, I don't know, six months down the road, she says, oh, I only came here because I was placating you.
I'd be like, well, that's a pretty good lesson about the dangers of placating, right?
I mean, I asked you, you swore up and down, I didn't believe you were placating, so, you know, don't lie to me, don't placate, because I can't feel guilty if I told you not to do that, you promised me you weren't, and now you say that you were, that's a pretty good argument for not doing it again, right?
And then she learns an important lesson, right, which maybe she won't learn through theory, but she'll learn through practice, and I think that would be the best that can be hoped for in that situation, so...
Alright, thanks so much for your call.
Listen, please keep in touch.
Let us know how it's going.
I certainly wish you the very best with your wife and your therapy again.
You know, if people are thinking of getting divorced, go to couples therapy.
If you do end up making the decision to divorce, which I hope you won't, then please go to couples therapy so that you can figure out how to be more effective co-parents together because if you have kids, man, you are...
Velcroed together at the heart and soul for a long time to come.
So I hope that people will listen to that and take that advice for what it's worth.
All right.
I'm sorry to the callers.
Yeah, I'm sorry for the callers we didn't get to, but I hope that you understand.
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