2967 Opps. SPLAT! Dead. - Call In Show - May 2nd, 2015
Question 1: Stefan presents varying evidence and statistics to make the claim that it is "best" for men to get married. Why does Stefan present overwhelming evidence of the benefits of marriage but discounts the risks to reach such a broad conclusion? |Question 2: What is masculinity? | Question 3: Freedomain Radio changed my mind about wanting to have children and being a stay-at-home mother – how do I find a great man to be my husband? What do great quality men look for in a woman?
This is Stefan Molyneux from Freedom Main Radio saying welcome to your Saturday night philosophy extravaganza where I believe the most curious and incisive listeners in the known universe come together to talk philosophy with someone who remains relatively undistracted throughout most of the course of the 19-hour shows.
Up first today is Wes.
Wes wrote in and said, Steph presents varying evidence of statistics to make the claim that it is quote-unquote best for men to get married.
Why does Steph present overwhelming evidence of the benefits of marriage but discount the risks to reach such a broad conclusion?
That's from Wes.
Oh, Wes.
Oh, Wes.
How you doing?
Hey, I'm good, man.
Long time no talk.
First of all, I wanted to say I really appreciate that video that you posted today.
I watched it this afternoon.
The little Freddie Gray, Truth About Freddie Gray.
I like that narrative style that you went into in that.
Thank you.
That was very compelling.
At the end of it, the only thing I could think of was that...
Have you seen that meme of The Rock at some kind of award show, just standing up, just...
That was how it felt.
That was actually the second take.
The first take was the audio wasn't that great for some stupid technical reason.
It's exhausting stuff to do, but I'm glad I did it.
Thank you for that feedback.
You and I, we talked a couple months ago.
We started broaching into this topic.
I consider myself to be a MGTOW, and you like to iterate what that is, and that's, of course, men going their own way.
Yeah, do you want to get, just because we are constantly, like an elk collecting burrows, we're picking up new listeners, so if you want to give people a brief overview of that?
Well, MGTOW is basically just men defining their lives in their own ideas.
It really was very...
Walk side by side for me for libertarianism.
It's one of the reasons that I appreciate your show.
A lot of opting out of the state as much as you can.
And the way that I personally look at marriage is that it has been co-opted by the state.
The institution itself of a relationship between two people, that's fantastic.
That is what has built our civilization.
But at this present time, I feel, and a lot of MGTELs do, that the risks associated with the dissolution of marriage are so great and so damaging to men that the only logical choice is to opt out.
The only logical choice?
I believe it is, yes.
Okay.
And so any choice to get married is an irrational choice?
Well, one of the reasons I emailed Mike because I wanted to talk to you is because I had posted something on this video that you had done.
I can't remember what the name of it was.
Saying No to Marriage, I believe it was.
Right.
Yeah, and you responded to it.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comment on that.
But that's what I wanted to address.
I mean, you kind of took and went into the...
The issue I have with that video was that you quoted a lot of statistics about the benefits of men, to men, being long life and that sort of thing.
Little anecdote.
This is going to be entirely ironic and hypocritical, but in a very short couple of weeks, I'm going to be in my sister's wedding.
I'm actually going to be giving her away, as a matter of fact, because my father has passed.
And, of course, this is challenging for my Believes as far as marriage and that sort of thing goes, but I actually want to see my sisters get married.
I believe that it is the best, as you said in The Truth About Single Moms a few days ago, I think it is the best option for women.
I just don't believe it's good for men.
Sort of like the expression goes, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I don't believe that's true in this case.
So I, as a rational philosopher, have made a mistake and performed a very irrational action in getting married.
Is that correct?
Well, I don't want to take it to a personal level.
No, no, no.
Listen, the reason I'm saying that is, and I'm not trying to sort of be confrontational, but the fact that I'm very happily married seems to be a surprise to people when I talk about some of the benefits of marriage, right?
I don't say MGTOW is an irrational choice.
I don't see if you choose not to get married because of the risks, I don't consider that an irrational choice either.
So I wouldn't say that either getting married or avoiding getting married is the only logical option.
And my concern with the MGTOWs is just talking about the negative or the downside and not using correct statistics, in my opinion, and I think with some backup, and not talking about the costs and benefits.
So I'm perfectly willing to say, you know, if you want to not get married, you consider the risk to be too great.
I think that's perfectly acceptable.
I can understand why people want to make that decision.
I would not say that either MGTOW or getting married is the only rational choice.
That seems very, like, that's a very bold case to make.
And if you want to make it, I mean, I'm happy to hear.
But it's a much bolder case than I'm making.
Well, I mean, what are your thoughts on how the state has co-opted the institution of marriage and what that has done to the institution?
Oh, it's made it dangerous.
Absolutely.
It is very heavily tilted on the side of women, on the power of women.
And I've done a huge number of shows about that, about how I consider alimony to be fundamentally extortion, and I consider child support about the minimum to be something that women force the state to pay, to make the man pay, or women make the man, sorry, women make the state force the man to pay for their Extravagant lifestyle so that the kids don't get angry at the mom for divorcing the women.
Can I just do a tiny rant just about women and political power?
Why do you think I listen to your show?
Okay, I'm just going to take my earpiece out and do a tiny rant.
Go for it, man.
There's a great mystery, great mystery as to why women don't get more into the freedom philosophy, into libertarianism, into voluntarism, into anarchism, into any kind of philosophical, political arguments about freedom and rights and property rights and so on.
Now, the general trend seems to be, you know, like after dinner the men go into the living room and Argue about politics or economics or something, and the women go into the kitchen and talk about their kids.
Now, I think that part of that's because men are more competitive as a result of having to go out and forage, and oftentimes that was a win-lose situation, like I bag the deer and you don't.
Whereas women, to raise children, have to be more cooperative.
And I think that's part of it.
There's a fundamental question, though, why, why, why are women not that interested in political philosophy?
And I think the answer is that in a state of freedom, women have some stuff to gain to some degree, but they also have much greater risk, right?
So the most fundamental and difficult and dangerous and potentially rewarding decision that a woman has to make is who she's going to spread her legs for, who's she going to have kids with, who's going to be the father of her children.
If she chooses right, Society is wonderful.
There are birds singing outside the window sill every morning.
The clouds shape themselves into pleasing Carmen Miranda fruit bowl hats, and all is glorious and great.
If she chooses badly, her life becomes pretty much a ruin and a disaster.
So in a state of freedom, the woman who chooses well does better, but the woman who chooses well Badly does worse than in the welfare state and so for women when there's a decay in political freedoms They are usually the ones who are first paid off, right?
So what do women get when they get the vote?
And I've got a whole video about this.
But what do women get when they get the vote?
Well, the first thing they get is old age pensions, right?
Because they tend to outlive their husbands and so on.
And so they get old age pensions.
And the next thing they get is the welfare state in case they get...
Like they marry the wrong guy, or the guy leaves them, or whatever, and then the next thing they get is abortion, and they get alimony, and they get child support.
And so basically, as a lot of thinkers have pointed out, what happens when women get the vote is they start to vote for the provision of resources by the state that formerly would have been given to them by the men in their lives, right?
And so when political freedoms are lost, particularly when economic freedoms are lost, when taxes go up and redistributionist policies get put into place, women benefit enormously.
And children, right?
Because women and children first.
That's what the programming of the male DNA is all about.
So why don't women care that much about political philosophy?
Because if freedoms go down the tubes, well, the government will still take care of them.
They'll be first on the list of people that the government feed and people the government provide for and people the government give resources to.
So they don't actually lose that much relative to what men lose.
Because women can vote to have the state replace the male.
Which means that if they lose freedoms, they gain more resources from the state.
Losing political freedoms, and especially economic freedoms for women, means getting more reliable resources from the state than they get from men, and having guaranteed resources from the state, no matter how awful people they may be, and not having to be nice to a husband.
They just have to yell and scream and We get politicians to give them stuff.
So when economic freedoms decay and vanish, nothing changes that much for women.
In fact, things become a lot more stable for women because they're married to the state rather than to a mere fallible male human being.
So, in a sense, what do they care?
Now, of course, men really care about political liberty, particularly economic liberty, because, because, because, when economic liberty goes down, it's because resources are being transferred to women against the will of men.
And that is like having sex transferred to men against the will of women.
It means that the value of men in the sexual marketplace declines enormously.
When women gain the vote and gain the power of the state to get them resources.
So sure, I mean, why would the women get that interested in political philosophy?
There's no huge downside with the collapse of freedom, but for men there is a huge downside, which means women are wedded to the state, their taxes go up and up, they become increasingly irrelevant to the functional lives of the family.
The fact that it causes civilization to crash in the long run is not really, of course, that important, particularly to women, because they're like, yeah, you know, whether I get resources...
From the state or from the dad doesn't really matter.
In fact, the state is arguably a heck of a lot better, a lot more reliable.
That welfare check is going to come every month, but who knows what's going to happen to my dice-rolling husband or boyfriend.
So yeah, it makes sense.
The men go and talk about political freedom and the women go and talk about their kids.
So women, do they really care as a whole about political freedom?
I'm not sure that it really affects their interests fundamentally that much.
Does that make any sense to you?
It does.
And, you know, it makes total sense as to why, you know, we have that.
But it goes back to what the traditional contract of marriage that I believe it used to be was, you know, a man agrees to enter into a relationship committed for life, so he's going to provide for and protect.
And the woman agrees as well to embarrass children and stay with them through that and support them as well, emotionally, even financially, that sort of thing.
And all of those responsibilities are still levied on men, but they've been taken away from women.
There seems to be.
I wouldn't say there's no, but there seems to be no Within government, within law, or within morality or society or culture, anything really binding women to hold their end of the social contract of marriage.
Sure.
Yeah, Ronald Reagan, I think, signed into the first no-fault divorce, right?
So there used to be, of course, this vow, which when there was religion, when religion was really the backbone of Western civilization, this vow was some serious stuff, right?
The vow to love, honor, and obey until death do you part, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health.
Before God himself.
What God has joined together, let no man, including the state, including a judge, let no man put asunder.
And there were two, as you know, exclusions for the ban on divorce.
One was, of course, abuse, physical abuse, and so on.
The other was adultery.
And generally, adultery on the part of the woman was considered worse because of false paternity and so on.
So...
It used to be very, very hard to get a divorce up until the 1960s.
It took an act of parliament for a woman to get divorced.
But women didn't like that.
Of course, right?
I mean, a lot of women didn't care because they were happily married, but the women who weren't happily married, who'd made a mistake, who'd chosen the wrong guy, well, yeah, they wanted out.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, I took note of that.
It was January 1970.
And since 1985, all the states in the United States have adopted no-fault divorce.
A lot of states have different alimony laws.
And I think in March 2012, Massachusetts finally got rid of it there.
Right now, there's a fight in the government of Florida to make some changes to theirs, and it's very emotional on both sides.
It really comes down to the idea that if marriage is a contract that two people enter into, say you have a business contract, both parties agree to terms.
But over the course of that, you usually have an expectation.
You consent to the terms of the agreement, consent being a big deal in this case.
And those terms shouldn't change in, say, a business contract or anything involving money and whatnot in civil law.
But it just goes to show that people that got married in the 1960s, they got married under a pretense of, okay, this is what marriage is, but Because the state is so heavily involved in marriage, those can change with an act of the government.
And so men and women both, they can't ever know for sure what's going to happen over the life of their marriage, what laws will dictate that.
And I think that kind of negates consent going into marriage.
What do you think about that?
Well, I can certainly see that argument, but I mean, let's say that, and I don't know what Marriage would look like exactly in a free society.
And I know that Reagan regretted that move that he made, for better or for worse.
But let's say that we returned to banning divorce, let's say, right?
I mean, if you marry a bitch, do you think that banning divorce is going to make your life a lot happier?
No, it won't.
It really won't.
So the fact, like, there's this old argument that atheists put forward, which is You know, religious people may say, well, without a ban on murder from God and without the punishment of hell, what would stop you from killing, right?
And to which you can reply to the religious person, are you saying that the only thing preventing you from going to murder someone is what a book says and a fear of punishment in the afterlife?
Like, you really, really want to go kill people, but damn it!
That's that law, that rule, the commandment.
And...
The same argument I think would apply to marriage, which is, if the only reason that your wife would be nice to you is because she would fear being divorced and not getting as much alimony or child support or whatever, I don't think that's the same as your wife loving you.
And so my goal would be if you find a woman of virtue and of quality who is going to love you and you trust and you know her history, she's got self-knowledge, she's philosophical, you know, whatever are the markers of trust that are valid.
I mean, I have some idea what they are.
I don't mean they're random, you know, but she strangles puppies, but it's okay because she's topless.
But...
Whatever you have that is trustworthy in a date, in a girlfriend, in a fiancé, and in a wife is irrelevant to the state.
Is irrelevant to the state.
My wife doesn't wake up every morning and say, well, let me see if anything's changed in the marriage laws to see if I stay married to my husband, right?
You know, we love each other.
We're thrilled to spend our lives with each other.
I don't want to spend my life with anyone else.
In fact, the idea of being out on the dating market is like...
It's horrifying.
And so when it comes to love, the state is irrelevant.
Well, let me go back to a comment that you made about my comment.
You said that it was a little bit sexist to say that there's so few women around that it's impossible to find a woman of, as you said, virtue and trust.
That's not what I'm really saying.
What actually I feel about this is that it comes down to the incentives that the state has put in in the fact that in the case of divorce, you could have a good woman, and she could be trustworthy, and she could be all these things when you got married.
But there is this – there's going to be a lot of social pressure.
She's going to have friends.
She's going to have a lot of pressure.
She's going to have a lot of incentives.
I do not want to quote you out of context, but I did go back and I remembered a video that you did called Death by Incentives.
And then you said, appeals to ethics almost never overcome incentives.
And that's what I think about.
Yeah, but hang on a sec.
Hang on a sec.
But...
Love and ethics are not in the same category.
Like, ethics are like, don't strangle people.
Don't drive over puppies and so on, right?
Right.
And so, I get all of that, but I'm not sure.
Like, I didn't marry my wife because she doesn't strangle people.
I mean, there's lots of people who don't...
Do you know what I mean?
Like, that's sort of a separate category from loving someone and wanting the best for them and growing together and all that.
So, to me, I agree that there are incentives.
And so, if a woman wants to do evil to you, wants to hurt you, wants to harm you, wants to drag you through the coals, right?
I mean, I was just reminded of this today because...
Ireland Baldwin, I think her name was.
It's the son of...
Sorry, the daughter of Kim Basinger and Alec Baldwin.
And I started reading this.
But...
It is...
I've never finished it.
It's a book that Alec Baldwin wrote about his divorce process from Kim Basinger.
He likened it to being tied to a truck and dragged along a gravel road.
The ride lasts until they say...
The people in the car say it's over.
You can't do anything about it.
You're just helplessly tied.
And this is a guy with a lot of money, a lot of resources, right?
And there was a...
I guess a scandal some years back where...
I think this is the same woman, Mike, if you can double-check this, but...
He left a voicemail on his daughter.
I think she was like 13 or 12 at the time.
He left a voicemail on his daughter's phone, calling her like a thoughtless little pig and railing her in sort of an angry way, not exactly breaking the stereotypes of the Irish hot temper.
Kim Basinger's, to my understanding, Kim Basinger's legal team leaked this to the media and it was played and it was considered pretty horrifying.
Now this woman has now grown up and I think she's a woman.
She just broke up with her girlfriend.
I don't know if she's lesbian or bi.
She just checked herself into rehab.
It's a complete mess.
Now, if you're married to Kim Basinger, I don't know who's right or wrong in this, but let's just, right, if Kim Basinger wants to do harm to you, well, of course she's going to take an angry message you left with your kids and put it out to the media.
And that's going to be horrible and humiliating and cause problems for you and so on.
But let's say that there was a different set of laws and she couldn't divorce you.
I mean, wouldn't that be like Wars of the Roses?
Like, I mean, what's she going to do?
Stab you in your sleep?
I don't know that having the state out or having a marriage where you have to stay together, I don't think that if you're married to someone who's willing to do that to you, to release an angry message to the media, I don't know that that's going to be a huge improvement to have the state out of that marriage and have some private entity forcing you to stay together.
Oh, so you would want to have, like, a private entity or surrounding marriage?
I mean, I would prefer to be, you know, no involvement in my relationships, actually.
That's my stance on it.
I would, I prefer to have it, you know, completely outside the...
Yeah, well, in a free society, right, in a free society, you would be perfectly free to do that, of course, right?
I mean, because you wouldn't have to enter into...
Some people might want to, some people might not, right?
Some people do business on a handshake, and some people require a team of lawyers.
It really depends sometimes on the stakes or whatever.
But, um...
Yeah, so I, you know, if you're going to say that getting married is an irrational act, and you're saying to me, and, you know, all you say, I want to make it personal, but it is personal, right?
I mean, and you're perfectly willing to make this case.
I'm happy to hear it.
But you're saying to me, Steph, you did a fundamentally irrational thing in marrying your wife.
And say, well, because now she can use the state to bludgeon you into non-existence.
Well, sure.
Yeah.
Sure she can.
And if there wasn't a state, she could just make my life miserable in six million other ways, right?
And so, to me, choosing the right person makes the state kind of irrelevant.
Well, I don't say that it's irrational, but the way that you present me...
No, no, no.
I gotta call you back on that.
Mike, do you remember what he said?
You did say it was irrational, Wes.
Getting married is always an irrational choice.
MGTOW is the only rational choice.
So not even dating, MGTOW is the only rational choice.
In the video that I commented on, what you were going into were these statistics about how it's beneficial for men to get married because their life are...
Wait, wait, wait.
No, no.
Wes, Wes, we've got to back up for a sec.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
If you want to amend your statement, we can amend your statement, but I don't want you to pretend like you didn't say it.
And I'm not offended or anything, it's just a debate point, but you did say that MGTOW is the only rational choice.
For me, I believe it's a rational choice for marriage.
Could be for you.
Sorry, for you or for other people?
I think everyone should make their own choice.
Based on what?
Of course.
No, no, no.
But arguing that something is an irrational choice doesn't mean that you would prevent them from making that choice.
And again, I'm not upset, I'm not mad or anything, but it's just a real thing.
When I talk about politics, I'm talking about real things, real choices, real people.
So you did say that MGTOW is the only rational choice.
And you're certainly willing to, if you want to amend that statement, that's fine if you want to stick by it.
But we can't pretend you didn't say it.
That's not healthy, right?
When I look at the statistics, I come to a different conclusion than you do.
So for me to say that it is irrational, that is why I choose not to get married, because I do believe that it is irrational for men to get married.
So, yes.
But you...
Okay, so I just want to be clear, right?
So you're saying that MGTOW is the only rational choice for all men?
If men want to have children, then they're going to have to make a different choice.
That would be the caveat to it.
But if men want to have self-determination, if they want to live the life entirely as they choose, there's only so far you can go living in the world that we do.
You can never go to any corner of the earth and get away from government.
But adopting the philosophy of MGTOW is, I believe, the most rational choice for men nowadays, yes.
Okay, so I made an irrational choice to get married.
You made a choice based on what you believed.
And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Just give it to me straight.
I'm not made of glass.
I don't mind it if you say this to me at all.
I mean, you may make a perfectly valid case.
But your case would be if MGTOW is the only rational choice, then for me to get married means that I made an irrational choice.
I know many men that are very, very happy in marriage.
And I'm not going to tell them that you've made a wrong choice because that's the choice that they made and they're comfortable with.
Part of MGTOW is going their own way.
So if that is your own way and I have my own way, it's what makes sense for me.
It's what makes sense for you.
So I'm not going to say that someone has made the wrong choice.
I'm not going to tell anyone this, but going back to the video that you had, you seem to present that it's the only choice for men is to get married.
I mean, it's good for society.
They live longer.
But there's a lot of other statistics to that.
No, no, no.
Listen, listen, listen.
I'm not going to go back because you're going to – you're conflating it's irrational with everyone should choose their own thing, which is exactly what I – I didn't say that it's the only thing that men should do.
I said it's important to look at the upside of a choice, right?
Because if you only portray everything that is negative about a particular choice, that's not fair, right?
Because there's costs and benefits in most choices that aren't around fundamental moral issues like whether to kill or not to kill or rape or not to rape.
There's costs and benefits, right?
Oh, I could go to school.
Well, that means that I defer my earnings for a while.
I might get into debt, but, you know, maybe it'll pay off later or whatever.
Oh, I go to get a job right now.
Well, I get income right now.
I get more under-job training, more job experience.
I don't have debt, right?
So you can portray any choice and pretend that it's the only choice by only looking at the plus sides and not looking at any of the negatives or the downsides.
And my point with the video was saying, let's look at both sides, which is that there are benefits to marriage as well, which are important to talk about.
Because if you only talk about the downsides, it's like talking about renting versus buying.
And if I say, well, if you rent, you don't have to pay for repairs, you don't have to pay for maintenance, you don't have to...
Shovel your own driveway.
If you're in an apartment, you don't have to put down a big chunk of change, tens or maybe more, tens of thousands of dollars in a down payment.
You get the flexibility to move pretty much whenever you want.
So that makes it look really attractive, right?
Whereas if I talk about buying and I say, well, you know, you're not throwing your money at a landlord just to bypass the need to save up and get a place.
You're accumulating real assets that will stay with you into your old age that accumulate in value.
Like you can make anything sound better or worse.
Just by pointing out all the benefits and none of the drawbacks and so of course yeah I respect the MGTOW community and think it's fantastic to remind people of the danger of getting married.
I am hugely important and hugely behind telling men that you are putting your dick potentially in a That's true.
I mean, it's a very dangerous thing to get married.
And, you know, it's a very dangerous thing to go skydiving.
But that doesn't mean nobody should ever go skydiving.
It just means...
Be trained.
Be careful.
Know what you're doing if you're going to do it.
It's a dangerous thing to wield a blowtorch.
It's a dangerous thing to fly an airplane, which means you should know what the hell you're doing.
And because men, as I talked about in the show before, get dicknapped, in other words, get lust clouds the brain.
And momentum in society, it really is important to point out the dangers of marriage.
I think it's an overreach to say, because the state is involved in marriage and because an evil woman can make your life hell, using the state.
I think, and then to go and say that it's irrational to get married, I think is a step too far.
Especially because in the MGTOW community, what do I always hear?
What do I always hear?
50% of marriages end in divorce.
That's not true.
And it is a fundamental problem in the MGTOW community that these statistics are being put forward as if they're just true.
And it is, you know, because MGTOWs get really angry at feminists, and rightly so, for some of the feminists saying, well, you know, one in five campus students of women are going to get raped and blah, blah, blah, sexually assaulted, and they have all these statistics, and you look into it, it's just not true.
I think it is irresponsible in the extreme for MGTOWs to just go on the internet blazing forward at 50% of marriages end at 50%.
It's not true.
It's not true.
And when you're going to try and help people to evaluate such an important decision as whether to get married or not, you shouldn't be putting forward...
I'm not saying you are, but MGTOWs shouldn't be putting forward and men's rights activists should not be putting forward bullshit non-statistics as if they're true.
It's not a true statement to say 50% of marriages end in divorce.
If you get married to an educated woman...
Your chances of divorce are like 6 or 7 or 8 percent.
If you get married to a woman who has not had a lot of lovers, your chances of staying together are huge, 80, 85 percent.
And that doesn't even count the educational standard.
So there are ways of reducing risk to the point where it is a very secure thing to get into.
Where you've more chance of dying prematurely than you have of getting divorced, if you choose the woman correctly.
And so my concern is that there's a fear of marriage, there's a hostility towards marriage, in the same way that there's a fear of and hostility towards men, which feminists use to produce bullshit statistics that warp people's thinking and don't give them the correct information to make intelligent decisions.
I think in the MGTOW and men's rights community in general, though not in specifics to any individual, there is this focus on Well, it's really horrendous and 50% no matter what, and it's just, it's not true.
And so this is what frustrates me is that, hey, make the case you want, but don't do it with made-up falsities.
I mean, I can go to the American Psychology Association, and, you know, that's what they quote on their website as, you know, 40 to 50%, so off by about 10%, you know, error.
Well, no, okay, let's break it down.
Let's break it down.
Mike, do you want to go through this?
Alright.
Here's a, lifted right from a presentation I'm in the middle of working on.
The 1 and 2 marriage and a divorce stat is based on a simple and flawed calculation.
The annual marriage rate per 1,000 people compared with the annual divorce rate.
In 2012, there were 6.8 marriages per 1,000 people and 3.4 divorces, according to the National Center for Health Statistics.
Wait, that sounds like 50%?
But researchers say this is misleading because the people who are divorcing in any given year are not the same as those who are marrying, and that statistic is virtually useless in understanding divorce rates.
In fact, they say studies find the divorce rate in the United States has never reached one in every two marriages, and new research suggests that with rates now declining, it probably never will.
Now, in certain communities, I can see that it may have reached 50% in certain times, right?
So, when divorce was illegal, divorce was almost impossible to get, and then when divorce was legalized, guess what?
A lot of people got divorced.
Absolutely.
Of course.
I mean, if you squish a hose, the pressure, you know, if I remember my Looney Tunes, if you squish a hose, the pressure builds up and builds up, and then when you let go of that hose, you get this water cannon.
And then what happens?
But it's like, think of divorces like people want to get divorced, but there's laws in place that say you can't get divorced.
It's like water building up behind a dam.
Right?
And then what happens is somebody...
Dam busts the dam, right?
They do the bouncing bomb thing in the Second World War and they blow up the dam.
This giant tsunami comes down with massive water pressure and washes away everything.
And then what happens?
Well, the pressure is released and things go back to something much less.
You get a waterfall rather than a tsunami.
And so if you look at particular phases, I'm sure you could get numbers close to that, but that represents a backed up backlog.
Of people who want divorce who suddenly can get divorced.
And also...
So anyway, so there is a sort of backlog, but then what happens is it's going to drain back down, which is why the divorce rate is going down now.
And it's not just because people aren't getting married, and it's also partly because people respond to incentives and they say, well, it is dangerous to get divorced, so I'm going to be more careful about who I pick to get into a marriage with.
So...
It is not.
And look, I mean, feminists can go and say, look, I go to the National Organization of Women and they say one in four, one in five.
But men's rights activists go to the source and they say, is that actually true?
And of course, it's not true.
It's not even close to true.
And so I'm just concerned that men's rights activists are taking these statistics, not looking at the source data, not looking at what's actually happening and getting to the facts of the matter, just repeating these the way that feminists do.
Well, you know, it depends on – I would like to see the actual statistics right now.
If you're doing a presentation on it, that would be fantastic.
I would watch it and absorb it all.
But just doing some research right here on my own, I'm looking at the U.S. Census Bureau.
In 2012, there were about 2.4 million divorces.
And then there's a separate research that was done that calculated the number of weddings in – 2014 to about 2.189 million.
So you got 2.4 million divorces in 2012, an estimated 2.189 million marriages.
We can throw it around back and forth, but to me that sounds even worse.
That sounds like just as many people are getting married as divorces.
Well, again, we'll get into this in more detail.
But of course, if marriage is declining, then the people who are getting divorced are people who married 5, 10, or 15 years ago.
If divorce is declining, then the people who are getting divorced now are not going to face the same risks as the people in the past, if that makes sense.
Well, when it comes to risk, I mean, personal story.
I had a very good friend that I knew for over a decade, and a very close friend.
We spent a lot of time together, went through a lot of business relationships and whatnot, and he decided to go out on his own and start his own business.
He was married at the time, and while he was starting his business, of course, his wife did support him, so I believe that really and truly she should be entitled to a lot of those benefits.
That seems fair to me, actually.
But as it went along, he grew his business from nothing into having about a million dollars in revenue and what he did at the time.
So a pretty good, successful company.
And then, I don't know the exact details of what went on in their relationship, but they went through a divorce.
And it was going to come down to the fact that he was going to be forced to liquidate The business that he had worked for.
And that came to be too much to him.
And he killed himself.
And I think that was a very selfish act.
But that's something that I saw in my life, personally.
I hear a lot of men that are very happy in marriage.
I don't know about men that have gotten over divorce, but the statistic that's relevant to me is that men that are divorced have a three times higher likely rate of suicide than married or otherwise single men.
And so, yes, positives of marriage, we should present that, but I think that That is what the MGTOW community does.
I don't believe that we present misleading statistics or we're like feminists and that we're drawing from anywhere.
We tend to be...
No, no, I think, no, but just saying blanket 50% is a misleading statistic because the research does not support it in general.
And I've never seen a MGTOW say, well, okay, it's 50%, but if you take the following precautions...
Then you can get the rate down to 5% or 6% or 7%.
And that really comes back to what I said about the incentives.
I believe that you can mitigate your risk, but if you have incentives in place, if you have a legal system set up that is anti-male, pro-women, however you want to put it, In the case of my friend, he had no kids, but this was a business thing.
Yes, she did support him, but that was what he had worked for.
She had a job.
She was making very good money, but I'm not the court.
I don't decide what it is.
But that's the sort of thing that men are very afraid of because, as the saying goes, women are human beings.
Men are human doings for someone to have something they spent the better part of their career working on.
To have it, you know, have to be destroyed, have to have it take away, what do they have left?
I mean, it's very damning to their personal self-worth.
Does it negate that?
I mean, look, I don't want to sound unsympathetic to what happened with your friend.
I mean, obviously, that's horrendous.
If it's only a divorce, you know, that may be the proximate cause, but that may not be the real cause.
Like, the foundational cause probably goes deep into childhood, but that's perhaps a topic for another time.
But that's like saying, you know, boy, I knew a guy who was Japanese or a guy who, you know, he worked himself to death, right?
I mean, he...
Got a heart attack and died on the job, so nobody should ever get a job.
I mean, that's the fact that there's personal disasters.
And let's say that it's entirely associated with divorce.
To then say, and therefore nobody should ever get married or it's irrational to get married, I think is just taking things too far.
I just, you know, I'm just telling you what I think.
And by married, you know, I don't necessarily mean the state is involved or whatever.
You can get a private contract going.
You can work with lawyers to attempt to mitigate risk.
I know that some prenups are challenged in court, but some do hold up.
Pretty well.
So you can do things to protect yourself.
But so you can have a commitment.
And look, I mean, if you don't want to have kids, I don't think it really I don't really care.
Right.
I just what I care about is the two parents to raise children, because that's what is the best for children.
So if you want to have kids, you are engaging or entering into.
A 20 to 25 year plus contract with someone to raise new human beings.
Whether you want to do that through the state, whether you want to do that through private contracts, whether you want to have prenups and so on, I think that's everyone's decision.
But if you do want to have kids and there is going to be marriage involved, there are risks.
And there's ways of mitigating those risks.
And that's the trouble.
All I hear is this 50% statistic, which is sort of like saying, you know, well...
5% of people die of lung cancer.
So watch out without saying, yes, but 95% of those 5% are smokers.
So if you don't smoke, you've just managed your risk enormously.
And I've never heard MGTOWs say, well, you know, skiing is risky, so don't ski.
And driving is risky, so don't drive.
You just mitigate the dangers.
You get instruction, you get training, you don't do more than you can handle.
And the vast majority of people who make intelligent choices about risk do fine with those risks.
But it's only in this one area of marriage where they say there is risk and therefore avoid the entire institution without telling anyone I've never heard anyone in the MGTOW community Choose
a woman who is educated.
Choose a woman who has gone to therapy, who has self-knowledge.
Choose a woman whose parents have stayed together.
And choose a woman maybe who've got similar cultural backgrounds.
And choose a woman who's similar in age to yourself.
And choose a woman who's not wildly disparate in terms of income.
And like all of these things that you can do, choose a woman who's not just graduated, some will come loud, in women's studies, whatever, right?
Frank talks about men's rights and feminism, and so ahead of time, all of these things will drop your percentage of getting into trouble in marriage down to the low single digits, and you get these associated benefits.
I never hear MGTOW talking about the benefits of marriage, and I never hear them talking about how to mitigate risk.
So it just seems to me like another bugaboo scare story.
Bugaboo.
No, it is.
Look, if I just talk about all the negatives and don't give a voice to the positives, and if I give people scary statistics and never tell them how to mitigate risk, aren't I just trying to frighten people?
Right.
But, you know, just throw one out there.
You know, like you said, the truth about single moms.
I mean, there's a lot of negative statistics.
And you never make a, you know, don't do this, you know, an absolute conclusion.
But that's an example of where, you know, you'll present a lot of the downside to things.
And that seems to be what you're accusing the MGTOW community of doing.
I mean, you take this one idea and you say, okay, here are the statistics.
Wait, wait, wait.
What are the upsides of single motherhood?
Well, you're negating all the fact that she – we could go on some salon.com or BuzzFeed and find all those lists that people would come up with for it.
I don't know what they are because I frankly agree with you.
But I'm just saying that's one area that the negative statistics can be presented all together.
If we're going to play doubles tennis, what's the upside of me being the only person on one side of the net?
There's no upside.
I'm just going to have to run like crazy and still lose.
So I don't see how having half the parenting around could possibly be considered an upside, whereas there are some fairly significant and fairly well documented benefits to marriage.
I don't think you can put marriage into the category of single motherhood as far as benefits go.
Right.
I mean, but there's associated risks with them.
And, you know, I'm glad that you present the positive benefits of marriage as you feel it is.
No, no, it's not as I feel it is.
As they are.
I feel like marriage is good, right?
But I do take issue with you, you know, accusing the MGTOW community of presenting bad evidence.
I mean, if you have contrary evidence, I mean, I'm welcome to watch your video on that.
From everything that I see, and I consider myself a very data-driven person, I'm able to pull up statistics here on the call with you to really back up my claim.
I don't think it's being disingenuous when they present that.
I think it's saying this is what is the reality according to the statistics that we have access to.
Yes, no, no, no, but it's not a complete picture.
Let's say that the 50% is completely valid, but it's not 50% for everyone, right?
I mean, because there are...
Groups that can get it down to 5%, 6%, 7%.
Right.
And that's, again, there's no differentiation.
It's just, again, to me, that sounds like a scarce statistic.
You can say, well, you know, if you marry a woman who is, you know, 10 years older or younger than you, who has a high school education, who's a single mom, whose parents were divorced, who slept around with 30 guys, who's a drug addict and in debt, it's like, well, yeah, you're going to get divorced, right?
No sane human being would tell anyone to marry anyone like that.
But the fact that the differentiation is all blurred in and no breakout or no breakdown of various risks are there, I think is a bit, because it is such an important topic and an important issue.
And there are MGTOW men who are like, oh man, I really want to have kids, but I'm too scared of marriage and I don't know, and maybe I'll get a surrogate or maybe I'll try and adopt or maybe I'll be a single dad and all that kind of stuff.
And I think, look, you may have a fantastic case.
You may be entirely right.
And I may have made a very irrational decision to get married.
I'm not wed to the decision.
But the reality is that it is not a big blob called 50%.
There's higher risk and lower risk areas.
And I'm just concerned that by putting it forward as a blob, it terrifies the hell out of guys and doesn't give them ways to mitigate that risk.
Now, again, maybe we should have this conversation after we finish the presentation and put it forward on the facts or the truth about marriage and divorce and the statistics that are behind it.
But What I would prefer is to say, you know, here are the risks of marriage.
I think I've worked pretty...
I mean, I've had the guy from Divorce Corps on and I've done The Truth About Single Moms and why men don't want to get married.
And, you know, I've been ripping on some feminism and I've done shows on alimony and child support.
And so I think I've been really behind pointing out the risks of marriage.
And I don't think there's a lot of people who would hugely fault me on that.
But I feel that...
It is important to provide a balanced perspective.
And the balanced perspective is there are benefits to marriage and there are ways of mitigating risk.
And that's all I'm asking the MGTOW community to do is say, don't hide the benefits because that's dishonest.
And don't hide that you can mitigate the risks of getting married.
That's fair.
That's fair.
I will take that to my message when I talk to people in my daily life about it.
Because, as I said, I know a lot of people that are very happy in marriage.
Most of them are fathers.
They are very, very, very ecstatic about it.
They're kids of their life.
Yeah, and I would say, I mean, I would not recommend getting married if people don't want to have kids.
Right, right.
So...
But anyway, listen, Wes, will you give me a call back after you've had a look at this presentation?
Because I'd like to talk about it further.
And, you know, obviously I've annoyed you with some facts.
And to put the fullest picture out, and this is, you know, with the research that we're just putting it together.
There is contention about some of the positive benefits that are put forward in terms of marriage, right?
Which I was not as aware of until we're doing this.
So we'll put all of these out in detail, right?
Some of the benefits that I'd heard about when we started really digging into the data turned out to be based on pretty small sample sizes and some leading questions.
So we'll tease all of that out.
And, you know, I may be arguing against some of this position after we put the Great, yeah.
Well, let's do that.
Well, I appreciate you having me here tonight, and I look forward to your presentation.
Thanks, man.
Take care.
You too.
Bye-bye.
All right.
Thank you, Wes.
Well, up next is Will.
Will wrote in and said, I've been doing research into the topic of masculinity, discovering the meaning of it as well as the value.
Sadly, I don't think there's an FDR podcast that talks about masculinity in its entirety.
So the question is...
Why would there need to be when every single FDR podcast demonstrates masculinity fundamentally?
Was that a chest hair just sprouting, Steph?
I think I heard that.
Wait, listen.
Yes!
Yes, there was.
The question is, what is masculinity?
All right.
Did you want to add more to the question?
Did you want to share your thoughts on it?
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't mind opening up with my thoughts and kind of what my research material has been so far.
Wait, are you researching masculinity on the internet?
Could you send me that playlist?
Just kidding, go ahead.
Yeah, I'll show you.
I think one's called...
Internet, macho, male video.
No, all you get is village people music videos.
Exactly, send me that playlist.
Yeah, The Way of Men is a very good one.
Jack Donovan.
Personally, I've greatly enjoyed looking into classic literature.
You'll get a lot about gender relations as well as masculinity from the Greeks and the Romans.
Currently, I'm listening to The Art of Love by Ovid, the poet.
He actually wrote a guide, which is pretty much a guide to picking up women.
It's pretty interesting because nothing's really changed.
Fundamentally.
Technology's changed, but nature hasn't too much.
There's nothing wrong with studying our roots.
I'm reading Beowulf right now.
That's a really great example.
To look for the kind of mother-in-law you should probably steer clear of.
Right, right.
And also, yeah, well, Greek mythology, Hera and Zeus, you learn a lot.
Medea is another one that you, anyway.
Yeah, well, Hera, I mean, Zeus was known for being promiscuous and having sex and children with other women, and Hera took her anger out on these women and the children, and like Hercules.
Wait, Hera or Hillary?
Sorry, I just wasn't sure we got that.
Correct, correct.
There's a Republican war on women, cleverly disguised as the aging harpy Hillary Clinton.
Yeah, history repeats itself.
Oh, right, right, right.
So...
Those are kind of what I've been using and also some of the Manosphere I've gotten into, which is the collection of blogs and collection of knowledge men have been accruing these past few years.
And one of my favorite sources To date has been Rolo Tomasi at The Rational Mail.
Have you heard of him?
Yeah, I think I've read a poster or two of his.
Yeah, I mean, I really like him a lot.
He talks about biology.
It's not philosophical, I don't think.
I think it's more just biological.
We're going to look at things the way they are.
And Not a lot of people do that, I don't think.
Not a lot of people actually understand.
What our programming is.
I think they get it in their gut, so to speak.
Yeah, exactly.
But I don't think they don't know how to abstract or conceptualize it.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Personally, I think you're a really great role model.
You and Elliot Hulse, too.
Elliot Hulse has some really great...
You mean for biceps or something else?
Yeah, how to get ripped and also...
How to get brain ripped.
Brain ripped.
Yeah.
How to get ladies with your brains and your biceps.
Chin ups for your deep self, baby.
And he...
No, it's very kind.
I appreciate that.
And yeah, people don't understand the degree to which, say, alphas like the welfare state.
Right?
Like alpha males love the welfare state because it means that they push women into...
An R reproductive strategy rather than a K reproductive strategy.
And an R reproductive strategy is around mere physical attractiveness.
So alphas love the welfare state.
Betas hate the welfare state because they, first of all, lose all the women to the alphas in their early years, and then they become a supplement to the welfare state when the women want to settle down after riding the car carousel for...
10 or 15 years.
So, the degree to which alphas love the welfare state is, again, one of these things that, unless you know RNK reproductive strategies and what's going on in the sexual world, it's really, really hard to understand.
For sure, for sure.
All right, so, sorry, is this the more you want to add, or should we dive into the question?
I kind of...
I've kind of been thinking about what qualities make up men and masculinity.
No, no, first we have to figure out what it is.
Oh, right, right, right.
Go ahead.
Well, okay, so the first question is, why are there men and women?
right if we're going to define masculinity we must know biologically at least why it exists in the first place oh did i lose you No, no.
Oh, yeah.
So that's a question.
Why are there men and women?
Why don't we reproduce asexually or something like that?
Why are there men and women?
Oh, you're asking me.
Yeah, sorry.
Non-rhetorical question.
Great.
Interactive show.
So, actually, I just thought about this.
The reason why there are men and women, at least last time I checked, is to create genetic diversity.
That's the point between, you know, that's why, you know, starfish have asexual reproduction, so you get, like, a lot of the same stuff.
No starfish, like, it's really hard not to stereotype starfish.
You know, they're just doing the same shit over and over and over again.
It's like, guys, mix it up a little.
Couple extra arms, you know, periscope, you know, maybe learn some hip-hop, you know, something.
It's the same goddamn thing over and over again.
I try not to be prejudiced and bigoted, but fucking starfish are all the same.
Because they're not fucking.
Anyway, sorry.
So, yeah, men and women, so we have two genders to create genetic diversity, which is why men and women are different, and we need to remember that.
It's there for a reason.
It's the DNA... Trying to allow us to adapt as much as we can.
Yeah, so we want to mix up the genes which brings in the random genetic mutations that drive our evolution, right?
So basically there are men and women because children, right?
So masculinity must fundamentally be about children in the same way that sexuality is fundamentally about children.
Which doesn't, I mean, you know, when I say that, people are like, oh, you shouldn't have sex if you don't have children.
It's like, no.
I mean, food is fundamentally about survival.
Oh, you're saying I can't have cheesecake?
Of course you can!
It's nonetheless a fact that sex, the reason we have sexual desires and sexual drives is for the reproduction of the species, right?
That's the reason why an orgasm doesn't feel like a bamboo shoot going up your ass, right?
Unless you're into that.
But, um...
So masculinity is there for children, and therefore masculinity must fundamentally be about fatherhood.
I like that.
And that's, I mean, that's been my experience, which is not an argument, but an experience, which is, I never really grew up until I had kids.
Like, I just, I mean, I didn't.
And I don't know anyone who has.
In reality.
It's such a mind-bendingly, awesomely ridiculous responsibility.
Like I was chatting with another dad the other day.
And he was saying that he had a, you know, pretty high-powered job, and he quit it to be home with his kids.
But he really missed the stress of his job, because the stress of his job was, oh, we might lose some money today, as opposed to, hope my kids don't die, right?
I mean, it's like, it's a terrifying and wild and deep and awesome responsibility.
And so to me, masculinity is fundamentally defined by fatherhood, not by...
Because the sex only exists and is even a drive for us because of fatherhood, because of the production of children.
Now, fatherhood is tangentially related to the gathering of resources.
Sorry, masculinity is tangentially related to the gathering of resources insofar as it is the male's responsibility traditionally in...
Our species to knock up the woman repeatedly and to bring ridiculous amounts of resources to the women and the children, right?
A man needs like ten times the resources to have, you know, five or seven kids than he would to just be a single guy.
So masculinity is associated with money-making, but that's because of fatherhood, not because of manhood.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, certainly.
Because the more I learn about masculinity, yeah, a lot of the virtues of men does involve Fatherly qualities of courage.
Having patience and having emotional...
Some guys would say there's a lot of misconceptions about masculinity.
Some guys think you have to be stoic.
Stoicism.
Don't show no emotion.
I don't find that to be philosophical.
No, no, but that's true outside the family.
See, there's two aspects of masculinity, and this is why women are confusing and men get confused.
So women want men to be stoic and hard and winners in the competition for resources when they're facing out of the family, right?
Right.
But when they're in the family dealing with the children, women want men who are emotionally available and sensitive and caring and all that kind of stuff, right?
But that's not what turns them on, though, at the same time.
Well, no.
I don't think that's true.
No, I don't think that's true.
If all you are is sensitive and empathetic and so on, then the woman is not going to be turned on.
Yes.
Because you're going to go out into the world and you're not going to be able to rip a piece out of society and bring it home to feed the kids, right?
Right.
You're not going to go out and win that contract.
You're not going to go out and bring down that bear or take down that woolly mammoth or, I don't know, pluck those carrots or whatever the hell.
Go get that fish and fight it and bring it on board.
Because men are often in competition with other men.
Your woman is going to be turned on by the fact that you're going to go out and win against other men and get resources and bring them home.
Because femininity is about motherhood.
It's not about...
My ass.
That's all part of it, but that's to have sex in order to have children.
So the desire to have a cold-hearted, mean-faced, stoic guy who's going to go out and get resources, right?
I mean, that's what was going to turn on a woman.
But if that same man brings those characteristics home...
And is cold-hearted and mean and emotionally unavailable to the women and the children, well, that's bad, right?
So go out there, be cold-hearted and get me and the kids' resources, but then come home and change into a guy who's warm-hearted and empathetic and kind.
Yeah, Rolo Tomasi kind of talks about that.
He talks about what it's like after being married, how he actually had a Change his game a little bit and how he had to step up a little more.
There's a lot of, with marriage, he said there comes a lot of maintenance, you know, because hypergamy wants women to trade up.
So if you don't want your woman to hypergamize, you must maintain the self and you must kind of play both roles in a sense.
Sure.
I mean, and that to me makes perfect sense.
I mean, if you see female lions, they do the hunting, right?
In Africa, right?
So female lions do the hunting and they will go and they'll rip a baby zebra in pieces, right?
Like a slaughter this damn thing and disassemble it with their teeth and claws, right?
And then they come back To the pack and they're, you know, playing heartily with their own children, right?
With their own baby cubs, right?
With the baby lions.
So, I mean, this is all the place, right?
I mean, the hawk goes out and, you know, rips the head off a rabbit and then tenderly feeds it to its own offspring and gently teaches them how to fly, right?
I mean, so this idea that out in the world you're going to rip off a piece of society and stuff it in your blood-soaked belt and bring it back home to your kids and then tenderly play with them and teach them how to be better people, I think is very common throughout the animal kingdom.
Yeah, yeah.
Now, people, they like to be one thing, right?
And so sensitive people like to be sensitive out in the world, which often means they'll lose.
And hard-lined people like to be hard-lined at home, which often means they lose.
But I think it is in our nature, you go out in the world, you put on your game face, right?
I mean, you know what?
I have these conversations, right?
I mean, sometimes I'm like ranting and raving and, you know, mashing at the teeth and whatever, right?
But I don't do that at dinner.
Right?
I'm not screaming and coming up with wild convolutions of entertaining metaphors at dinner, right?
I'm just having a regular old conversation, right?
So, you know, you put your game face on and you do your public thing, and I think we have pretty intimate conversations for public things, which is, I think, why this show is kind of unique.
But, you know, the judge should not be banging his gavel at home, is kind of what I'm saying.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's why, you know, that's why a lot, there's a lot of people who separate work from the personal life.
You know, like, I don't listen.
Of course you should.
Yeah, of course you should.
I mean, that's like saying, I'm going to go out and play with the baby zebra and then come back and bite the head off my own offspring.
That would be to confuse work and home, right?
Yeah.
Because out in the world, I mean, there's a lot of win-win in negotiations, but even in the world right now, If I win, billions of people are going to lose, right?
We know that, right?
That's the deal of particularly trying to advance the moral conversation of the species, right?
So if I get it across to millions and millions and millions of people, right?
So far, we're tracking that way.
But if I get it across to millions and millions, spanking is wrong, yelling at children is wrong, punishing children is wrong, you know, treat them as people.
Well, I mean, there's a lot of people who are going to win, namely the kids, and there are other people who are going to win who are going to be parents who change, but for a lot of parents who either don't want to change or it's too late or whatever, they're going to lose, right?
Now, I don't have in my personal life, I don't have relationships where it's win-lose, but out in the world, to have success, it's win-lose.
If you're watching Letterman, you're not watching Leno.
Letterman wins and Leno loses.
If you're watching Jimmy Kimmel, I don't know if he's on the same time as, you know, whoever he's on up against, Jimmy Fallon or something like that, then it's win-lose.
And so Jimmy Fallon wants you to watch his show.
And Jimmy Kimmel wants you to watch his show.
So one does a Wimblewit with Billy Joel and the other one makes children cry.
So whichever you happen to like is where you go.
So in the world...
There's a lot of win-lose, and you have to not harden your heart, but accept that that's the price of success in the world, is you're going to win, and other people aren't.
If you're the actor going for the role, and you get the role, everybody else walks home disappointed, right?
Yeah, the second you think you're the only one in the race is the second you lose the race.
Yeah, no, I think there's some truth in that.
And I am continually aware of the win-lose nature of what it is that I do.
And the only way to avoid win-lose is to not strive for achievement.
I mean, there's no other way to do it.
I mean, if the iPhone wins, Android loses and vice versa, right?
Because very few people are going to buy both.
Right.
Very few.
Don't need two cell phones.
They call yourself.
So there is win-lose out there in the world.
And people are surprised, you know, when there's backlash.
It's like, well, people dislike.
It's like, well, of course they are, right?
Because you've succeeded in getting something and other people have lost.
So, yeah, I mean, if you're the one in the Calvin Klein underwear ad, well, I'm not.
I'm sure it was second.
Second, I'm telling you.
So, when you go out into the world, you have to harden your heart and you have to be the best, I think.
I mean, or don't go out into the world and try and be the best and just, you know, lay low and play games and whatever, right?
Be mediocre.
Be mediocre.
Yeah, be mediocre and then you'll just lose against a few people who are slightly more mediocre than you, right?
Yeah, well, and the same thing goes for the dating realm.
Yeah, that's win-lose.
I think this is something we need to Kind of push on to guys within FDR. We're the ones that need to be having children.
We're the ones that have the integrity, the self-knowledge.
We've got the best genes.
We have the best genes.
So we should really be focusing on raising our sexual market value.
Trying to be the best men out there.
The most competitive men out there.
Well, yeah, I mean, certainly recognize that all success breeds a giant wake of unhappiness behind it.
Exactly, yeah.
If you...
I think instead of...
My problem with MGTOW is they kind of complain a lot about hypergamy, whereas me, I'm saying, well, it's there regardless.
I mean, you can talk about it, you can complain about it, you can do whatever you want.
It's there regardless.
So why not just use it to your advantage?
And just try to be the best.
Don't give the woman an option to trade up.
Well, no.
The problem is with women.
Let me just encapsulate this, right?
The problem with men and women at the moment is not that there's hypergamy.
There's always been hypergamy.
The problem with men and women is that men are raised by women and women don't tell the truth about female nature.
Men are getting the training that they need.
Yeah, men aren't getting the training that they need.
Now, when I say women don't tell the truth about single nature, what I mean by that primarily is single moms don't tell the truth about female nature.
Expecting a single mom to tell the truth about female nature is like expecting a government school teacher to tell you the truth about the state.
It's not going to happen, right?
And so the problem is that men are getting, men are raised, so many men are raised by single moms these days.
And are getting such a weird and distorted view of female nature.
I mean, it's like being raised by embittered business losers about the nature of competition in the free market, you know?
It's rigged, man.
It sucks.
You got to know someone.
You can never get ahead.
You know, it's all politics.
Nobody ever gives you any break.
The bank will foreclose on you.
They won't.
It's like, ah, I don't want to, right?
I don't want to know, right?
This is what I hear sometimes about marriage from some communities, right?
So women, men suck, they're unreliable.
It's never their fault, right?
It's not like, sorry, mom chose the wrong guy.
Mom chose the wrong guy.
Mom chose an idiot, an unreliable guy, which means that in trying to provide you a father, right?
So the job of the mom is to provide a father for the son and the daughter, right?
That's the job.
That's the job.
Provide food, boob milk, change the diapers, keep the father around.
That is the job of the mom.
Marry a man who's going to stay around.
Be nice if he has some resources, but even if you're living in a hole in the ground, if the man's around, you have a pound.
Oh, look, British currency had to go with that rhyme.
And so, a woman who is a single mom has failed at motherhood because the job of motherhood is to provide...
A father.
The job of fatherhood is to provide resources.
The job of the mother is to provide the father.
And because without the father, don't get the resources, don't get the co-parenting, which is why not providing a father is so disastrous for children.
Not having a father around is so fucking disastrous.
So, given that it's so disastrous for children, don't make them eat lead paint off the walls and have the father around.
Now, a woman who has failed so foundationally and fundamentally that the dad isn't around, that the dad, either she can't stand the man she married to the point where she's willing to incredibly harm the children by not having him around, or she was such a horrible human being that the guy can't stand being in the same house with her even to the point where he's willing to give up his children, right?
She's failed so foundationally, so fundamentally.
Kids are at less risk if she has them play on the street.
And so this fundamental failure on the part of women who are single moms to provide what their children need is so catastrophic and so humiliating.
What can they say?
I'm your mom.
I failed.
I have fucked this up beyond words.
I have failed to retain and provide to you the one thing that is most essential to your stability and growth as a human being, that being a father.
I have failed to provide you that most essential ingredient to your future happiness and stability.
Right?
Son, I'm sorry that you don't know how to compete.
I'm sorry that you don't know how to lose gracefully.
I'm sorry that you don't know how to do team sports.
I'm sorry for all of that.
Daughter, I'm sorry you're going to have a daddy hunger and a male hunger in you so much that the first hairy-legged boy who brings you a rose is going to screw up your life.
I'm sorry that I've left you vulnerable and unprotected in this world by failing to provide you with a father.
I'm sorry that I had to get married to the state and to the court system and I had to bully your dad.
And, of course, the single moms have to say, I mean, whose fault is it?
Whose fault is it that there's this giant clusterfuckup Of a broken home, is she going to say, well, you know, the men are the one who ask women out and the women are the one who choose.
Which men, right?
So lots of men were asking me out.
I chose the asshole.
And then I drove him away.
Or he just hated me so much.
So then they have to downgrade and attack so often and denigrate the father.
Which is natural.
Sour grapes.
I can't get those grapes.
I'm sure they're shitty.
Well, dad's not around because men are shitty.
So they have to lie and downgrade masculinity as a whole.
How horrendous is that for their kids?
Daughter, men are shitty.
I wonder who you're going to date.
Son, men are shitty.
I wonder how you're going to feel about yourself.
The catastrophe that goes on in single-parent households is like putting kids' brains through a blender and expecting them to hit the top of the L says.
So, the problem with...
It's not the problem with hypergamy.
Yeah, women want to marry up.
I get it.
I mean, that's not the end of the world.
It's not...
Men like fertility, right?
That's not me.
This has been known, you know, since we crawled out of the primordial ooze.
This is not a huge problem.
The problem is that single moms...
And dads are involved too, I get it.
But women...
God damn it.
I mean, that's why you can't...
Get the truth from women about women these days.
You used to be able to when women behaved more honorably in general or at least were willing to enforce honorable standards.
You can get the truth from women when they're being honorable or have honorable standards around, but when they don't, you just get lie after lie after lie after lie after lie after lie.
So women, oh yes, I just sit back here and 90% or 95% of the dates that are asked in this world are men asking women out and the majority of them are paid for by men and so men are in hot pursuit of women and women sit back there and they just, men put their massive messages into their Tinder inbox and they just get flooded with requests and opportunities and so on, right?
Like those YouTubers, it's like some normal looking guy has like 1,200 subscribers.
He's been working at it for three years.
And some woman sort of wanders behind him with big tits and is like, 12,000 subscribers!
It's like, God Almighty, right?
So, I mean, anyway, the problem is not hypergamy.
I think that's a red herring.
The problem is that single moms have to provide such a distorted view of Femininity and of masculinity.
It's leprous and it's cancerous.
The way that genders are driven, the gender ideology is driven largely through single moms.
I mean, feminist ideology would have no traction in society if it wasn't for single moms.
Particularly radical feminist ideology would have no traction in single moms.
Because everything that feminism rails against requires you not actually knowing a father.
I mean, the idea that there's patriarchy and so on.
Oh yeah, patriarchy.
It's great.
I get to work 60 hours a week to feed my wife and kids.
That's patriarchy.
I mean, you just have to not know men.
So radical feminism in particular is a toxic bigotry that rushes in to fill a void left by an absent father because women chose badly.
And so I... You know, I think it's a red herring to talk about hypergamy.
That's always been a factor.
The problem is that kids are growing up being lied to about female nature by single moms and being lied to about male nature by single moms.
Because if they were able to take responsibility and be adults, they wouldn't be single moms.
Yeah.
I mean, our strategists, too, aren't really helping.
Or is that the spray and pray guys?
Yeah, yeah, they are our strategy.
Yeah, I mean, they're definitely not helping with the situation of single motherhood.
Oh, yeah, the guys who want to, you know, fucking flee love the welfare state.
Because it just means that, you know, legs open.
You know, it's like there's that joke, I think it was, you know, the beginning of Lion King...
Somebody thought it was Pennsylvania!
I thought it was Pennsylvania, which I think is kind of funny.
But that's the mating cry, you know, of the R reproductive strategy guy.
State is gonna pay!
So, you know, the legs open.
I don't think they make that sound.
I think that's just Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct.
But legs open.
If the government's gonna pay, legs open.
And they open to the stud muffins, to the alphas.
So, yeah.
Oh, it's either the government or some beta who's desperate for...
A good-looking woman.
No, no, but you see, beta desperation is driven by the alpha dominance, right?
Because if there wasn't the welfare state and the alpha dominance that drives and is driven by the welfare state, then betas would get much more sexual access much younger because women would resist the alphas and go for the stable providers, right?
Right, right.
So the betas can't get dates because the women are all out there screwing the alphas.
And these are all wild generalizations.
I'm aware of that.
It's tons of exceptions.
All women!
Yeah, no, no.
Now well, blah, blah, blah, right?
But in general, right?
And I'm extending this because I keep getting messages from...
I'm going to have to just say young men.
I'm going to be 49.
I can't just say younger men.
Not younger than 49.
But...
And they're all saying, my God, you don't know what a nuclear wasteland of estrogen hell it is out here, right?
And so because the women are all swarming the alphas, the betas are frustrated.
And so then, you know, the idea that they'll all be this backed up beta frustration land for women to settle into after, you know, riding around the alpha bandwagon, it wouldn't be there if the alpha dominance in the welfare state wasn't there.
I also, I kind of feel like, you're never going to hear this from the other, any other guys, but I feel like a lot of guys my age, I'm 22, but I feel like a lot of guys my age are kind of spineless though.
I mean, there's the amount of, I don't know, just the amount that men are willing to give their attention to women.
I mean, look at webcam girls.
In the internet.
Okay.
Hang on.
Let me just, you said look at webcam girls.
Let me open my bookmarks.
Let's see.
Okay.
Homepage.
I'm there.
Go for it.
Well, the thing is, like, the internet.
Hey, FDR listener.
How you doing?
Right.
I mean, like, so the thing about the internet is it has increased the amount of attention that women can get from any amount of men that they want.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
We need to remember this.
We are living in a digital age.
No, but attention is porn for women, right?
So men get all the porn they can stomach, and women get all the attention that they can stomach.
Although, you know, a third of porn consumers are women, so it's not sort of as black and white as that.
But sorry, go ahead.
And...
Well, I mean, the thing is, men are getting the porn, right?
It's telling their brains that they're getting women without actually getting them, right?
By kind of just paying for it or whatever.
And they're not getting that interaction.
And so men are not learning how to really maintain frame among women.
But men are supposed to pay for sex.
No, there's, like, I'm sorry, I don't shock anyone, but that's the biological reality.
That sex, historically, of course, has meant babies.
And babies for women means pretty much incapacity.
Right?
Because they're up all night, they're pooping all day, they need breastfeeding, they're, you know, I mean, it's exhausting.
Right?
There's a reason why nature doesn't let a woman get pregnant while she's breastfeeding.
Because she's overwhelmed.
She can't have another kid, right?
I mean, I'm sure it's experimented where women could have kids while breastfeeding.
I bet those kids didn't do very well.
Even though there are two breasts, one child.
Anyway.
Well, you've got to find some place to make motorboat noises, so that's obviously genetically for that.
So, you're supposed to pay for sex.
In other words, you're supposed to have resources or potential resources before you get sexual access.
And the transfer of wealth from the man to the woman and the child is all throughout the animal kingdom where there is significant K reproductive strategy, significant investment in the kids.
So, you know, people are like, oh, marriage is just another kind of prostitution.
It's like all reproduction requires the transfer of resources, particularly for human children, which are ridiculously slow to develop, which is why they're able to develop these giant brains is because it takes forever to grow The most delicate and amazing plants.
So yeah, the spinelessness and so on.
I've heard this before, but tell me more about that.
Well, so men are...
I mean, I'm sure you've heard the joke that feminism is just one giant shit test written on society.
Yeah, yeah.
But why don't you explain that?
I don't think a lot of people know that too.
What, frame?
No, shit test.
Oh, shit test.
So shit testing is a...
It's a way for a woman to test a man to see if he is good material, good mating material.
She puts him through various...
I mean, men do it too to women as well, in our own way.
But so a good example...
Would be when women nag a little bit.
They try to insult you, put you down.
That's when she's trying to see if a man can handle criticism and see how well he can maintain himself among a dangerous environment or something like that.
And that's so he can go out and win resources from other men, right?
Right, right.
And so...
I think.
I kind of agree with it, though, that feminism is one of the reasons why feminism gained traction is because a lot of men allowed it to, for whatever reason.
No, I mean, look, I get it.
But the shit test is designed to be passed.
But feminism, at least radical feminism in its current form, has arisen because there's a nana nana boo boo, we don't need you because we've got the state.
Right, right.
Right, so, I mean, the shit test is designed to be passed, but you can pass the shit test called the welfare state, because it's there and it'll provide resources, right?
Do you think women would have voted for that if they would have been happier in their house, like, as married women?
Like, if they would have been provided resources?
I think it's a really important question.
Not that others haven't been, but I think that's a giant one.
So just make sure I understand it.
Can you ask that again?
So let me rephrase it.
You know, with my parents, my mother, I remember at a time my mother just stopped voting and stopped going to church.
And she said, why would I need to vote?
I have everything I need right here.
And she had a husband who provided and a community and she was happy with her role.
At some point.
They're divorced now, but I remember at some point her saying that.
And it makes me think that maybe that's why I have been led to believe, or why I think now, that feminism has gained traction because men have led it to do so, because they have lost their frame.
They've lost the ability To maintain themselves, to maintain their integrity among women.
No, it's not integrity.
I would say authority.
Authority.
Authority.
No, no.
Men have become like, and this doesn't mean that men are bosses.
It's just an analogy, right?
But men have become like bosses with an employee who won the lottery.
I mean, you don't, what authority?
I'm going to fire you.
Fire me.
I got the lottery.
Yeah, yeah.
Take this job and shove it.
You're going to get some attitude from the guy who won the lottery.
For women, the state is the lottery.
You think it's just going to happen no matter what?
It's there.
Why not just vote for it?
Well, yeah.
And I think one of the things that's happened is that there was this illusion put forward that women all have the same interests.
You know, there's this weird collectivism that goes on in feminism.
And you see this with the black community, too.
Like the black community, oh, they don't like police.
It's like, no.
Right.
The criminals in the black community don't like the police.
A lot of the people who are in the black community, of course, who aren't criminals, which is the majority, they kind of like the cops.
In fact, there's a lot of black people who are like, the police, we need more police, the police aren't here, there's shootings going on, we've got to get the police in here, right?
So this idea that the blacks are just a blob that just dislike the police, it's like, well, the criminal element in the black community is shockingly high, and they don't like the cops.
What a shocker.
And same thing with women.
Women's interests are not aligned.
Right?
I mean, to say, well, women all have the same interests and, you know, it's not true.
And women used to know that.
I mean, geez, I mean, look at Downton Abbey and look at what happens to fallen women.
Look what happens to women who sleep around.
Look at what happens to women who start screwing around with other people's marriages.
Right?
They're ostracized.
And the married women are like, no, no.
No, no, no, no.
Predatory, sexy, creepy, crazy single woman.
Get away from my family.
You're trouble.
And women used to be incredibly harsh with women who slept around or who had sex outside of marriage or who had affairs or who were single moms.
I mean, they would be ostracized.
Slut-shaming.
Yeah, and now it's like, well, okay, so now you're slut-shaming.
It's like...
So there's this collectivism that comes out of Marxism where people are defined by gender or class or these giant categories or race or whatever.
It's all nonsense.
I mean, there are ecosystems within households, let alone neighborhoods, let alone races, let alone genders.
This idea that everyone's just this, ah, you look like this.
No penis, same agenda.
Darker skin, same agenda.
It's like, oh, come on.
They're all individuals.
It's ridiculous.
And there's predator-prey relationships among women and within blacks and within whites and Asians.
I mean, it's all not the same.
They're all not the same.
And so, I mean, we recognize this in biology.
There are no subspecies that ever end up inhabiting the same geographical areas because they're competing for the same resources.
Anyway, that's a topic for another time.
But...
It is a lottery.
I mean, if you look at the benefits, it's staggering.
It's staggering.
First of all, there's government employment, which is significantly skewed towards women, which gives women significantly extra money than they'd probably get, at least in the short term, in the free market.
Massive benefits.
You know, massive time off, sick days, all the stuff that particularly working moms need is a huge benefit from the state.
You know, free or subsidized daycare, free or subsidized healthcare, right?
Like Freddie Gray was in the hospital for months after he was born because he was born preemie.
Because they were twins, which is a high risk factor for that too, plus, you know, mom is drug addict, another high risk factor and so on, plus, you know, probably some accidents.
So, you know, lots of free or subsidized health care, free or subsidized housing, rent control, free government schools paid for by other people, free government roads paid for by other people, subsidized buses paid for by other people.
I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
I mean, it literally is...
Even a woman who's, you know, doing sort of, oh, she's only getting welfare, it's like, that's in some ways the least of what she's getting as far as benefits from the state goes.
And all you have to do is go back, like, I don't know, let's say 100 years.
And how much would people 100 years ago to live like a single mom on welfare now?
I mean...
They would give anything.
I mean, the kings would say, I'd love to come.
They've completely won the lottery.
I'm not saying it's easy to be on welfare or anything like that, but as far as resources being provided, I mean, women through the state have won the lottery and get the divorce alimony and they've got child support and so they just get to roll in the dough even if they're not rolling in the hay.
So, yeah, I mean, for men to...
Yeah, it's like your employee won the lottery.
Or maybe if you don't like that relationship, you know, your partner won the lottery and the job sometimes is really hard.
So are you going to be able to motivate them?
Are you going to be able to...
No, they're probably going to have one foot out the door the moment they show up the next day.
Yeah, that's exactly how it is.
Now, I mean, I know that I'm sort of arguing at somewhat cross-purposes with the first caller.
This is all absent virtue, right?
I mean, absent, you know, things that are love and virtue-based and so on, right?
I mean, anyway, I'll get into that.
No, we'll do that in the presentation.
But, yeah, it is...
So the idea that feminism is a shit test, well, the shit test is designed to be passed.
And, you know, feminism is...
Well, it's just nagging the state for resources because the men aren't around and the state will provide them, right?
So feminism is nagging.
Oh, absolutely.
I like that.
That's better.
Absolutely.
I've got a whole podcast on that.
Mike, I don't know if you can dig up the name or number, but I've got a whole podcast on that.
Again, it's not to say, you know, men and women shouldn't be equal.
Absolutely.
But the reality is that once kids come into the picture, men and women are not equal.
Okay.
I mean, they're not because breastfeeding.
You know, because I get these messages that's like, well, why can't a man stay home with the baby?
Well, the man can stay home with the baby, but we don't have the feeder bags.
So it's just, and there are times where that may be perfectly appropriate.
Maybe the woman makes 10 times as much and maybe she can pump in the toilet or whatever.
Oh, that just, I don't know.
We had a woman on back when I was doing the Peter Schiff show before that show got canceled.
I don't think I contributed hugely to that.
Really?
Maybe a little bit.
But a woman calling is like, oh yeah, you know, I work, you know, 60 hours a week and I'm pumping milk in the toilet.
And it's like, does that not seem weird to you?
Does that not seem weird to you?
I mean, like, why become a mother if you're not going to stay at home?
And I mean, I don't.
Yeah.
Well, just, you know, go have it.
I mean, anyway.
The podcast number is 2825.
Feminism, unequal, opportunity nagging.
And so, you know, the free market perfectly represents that.
And the show that I'm talking about is the one, Schiff Radio Show, April 14th, 2014.
Why is that only a year ago?
Holy crap.
Anyway...
And the free market perfectly accepts and understands that is that single women actually earn slightly more than single men.
But once you get married and you have kids, I'm telling you, I mean, feminism likes to obscure that point.
But, you know, you can be a good worker or you can be a good mommy.
You really can't be both very easily at all.
Yeah, that's why it's very important for men to be careful about who they give their attention to and training themselves to pick.
There's actually a lot of men out there who are ex-pickup artists who've stopped doing it because I now know I value the quality women a lot more.
And they kind of just stopped doing it.
I mean, it's pretty interesting.
Well, yeah.
I mean, casual sex is the junk food of the penis, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's not like it's going to kill you.
Well, I guess it might.
You should really get the wrong person.
But it's not going to kill you, but it's just not good for you, really.
But, I mean, I've said this on the show before.
I mean, we're so far outside of any kind of healthy relations between the genders because of the state.
And again, there are lots of exceptions and I'm happily married and my wife has never nagged me.
And we're so far outside of any kind of normal relationship.
Between the genders that you really, really have to be very careful about if you want to get married and have kids, who you're going to get married and have kids with.
And also we've got a presentation...
Got that?
I'm sorry, caption generator, for that African Zulu name.
But we've got a presentation called The Truth About Sex.
And it is...
Well worth watching.
You know, it's one of these ones, you almost, you can't spend a better hour than getting that information into your head.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, dear God, I've heard horror stories of guys.
Just, how many STDs do you have?
I mean, if you just go into the Manosphere, go into the forums.
I mean...
It's a great place to pick up knowledge from other guys and kind of decide for yourself.
Yeah, that's a point just so I don't forget.
I lost myself.
Not for the first time, and not for the last.
But women need to enforce standards on women.
I mean, it's just the way things go.
You know, groups need to enforce themselves, right?
I mean, that's just the way it goes.
And women used to be really great at enforcing standards on women.
And then this Marxist collectivist radical feminism came along and somehow said, well, women all have the same interests.
And what that did was it broke down the in-group criticism that women needed to maintain healthy standards and healthy relationships with men and with each other.
And so any woman who criticized another woman was considered to be breaking ranks.
You know, like you've turned against your sisterhood and so on, right?
I mean, you can see this in the black community sometimes too, right?
Where anybody like Tom Sowell or other people who criticize Shelby Steele, Uncle Toms, you know, race traitors and stuff like that.
Whistleblowers.
Yeah, you know, they just, you know, don't...
Standards need to be enforced internal to groups.
I think that's natural.
Women stopped having the feeling that they had the right to criticize and ostracize other women.
When I talk about ostracism, people lose their mind.
They lose their mind.
And they do that because they have no idea how society used to function.
They're like the people in 1984 who can't even remember what life was before the revolution.
Society used to function on ostracism.
Significant sections of society still do.
Mormon Church function on ostracism.
And it's a very, very powerful tool.
And it's how you enforce social rules without the state.
And the beautiful thing about ostracism is it allows for far more opposition to social norms than the state does.
If you're a Mormon and you want to oppose Mormonism, yeah, you may face ostracism, but that's a hell of a lot of a lower bar than going to jail to sort of overcome.
Ostracizing societies are far more flexible.
In terms of the evolution of social norms than societies that rely on this kind of politically correct hysteria.
Now, you could argue that that's sort of like ostracism and so on, but it's a little different insofar as if it's funded and paid for and protected so often by By the state.
But this is why I reintroduce, or I guess I've tried to reintroduce the idea of ostracism.
And people go, my God, it's a cult!
He's talking about maybe not even associating with people who completely oppose everything you stand for.
It's like, that's how society used to work.
Look at friendly societies, look at religions, look at entire cultures.
You know, how does Judaism...
Replicate itself.
5,000 years!
Of people with bitingly funny dinner conversation.
I mean, how does Judaism reproduce itself if not by ostracism?
And it's just like, I don't know, it's like, I mention it, you know, with regards to families or statism, people go, they lose their shit?
And it's like, what?
I mean, it's fundamentally I still don't get it.
I mean, I get it intellectually.
It's just, I mean, it's incomprehensible.
Like, what?
Were you saying that me as a black man shouldn't hang out with the KKK? What are you running a cult or something?
It's like, no, I'm really not.
I'm just saying this is how society used to work.
And this is exactly how I, you know, my very first articles back in 2005, 10 years ago, I laid out ostracism, economic and social ostracism as the way that society works.
So it started at the very beginning and it was about handling a case of rape.
I'll read these things again, but people have forgotten.
But anyway, so women used to have the right and capacity and honor and obligation to ostracize wayward women, women who were disruptive, women who were destroying the social fabric, women who were toxic, women who were dangerous.
And now for women to say anything negative about other women, catfights, slut-shaming, toxic, blaming the victim.
I mean, it's just...
But of course, if you can get people to stop ostracizing, what happens?
The government loves it.
Because when you stop people ostracizing, when you stop people shaming others, when you stop people excluding others, then so much dysfunction gets baked into the social fabric that more and more government is required to deal with these horrendous effects of that.
It's ostracism or the state, right?
To quote, I dug up for the Freddie Gray monologue, which is, when you have mores, laws are unnecessary.
When you don't have mores, laws are unenforceable.
Unenforceable laws are the catnip of the state.
I mean, let's forget about hypergamy.
Let's talk about state ergamy, right?
The dire desire for the state to continually increase its power.
And the way it does that is by saying that anyone who tries to enforce social rules outside the state is a bad, bad person.
And what am I all about?
I'm about trying to enforce social rules outside the state.
I'm an anarchist.
Oh my god.
He's trying to enforce social rules outside the state.
Well, how do you do that?
You do that through ostracism.
I mean, through praise and positive reinforcement.
And you do that through ostracism.
And now the government hates everyone, and communists and totalitarians and Nazis and socialists of every stripe and hue hate ostracism.
Because if ostracism works, you don't need the state, and they have to go get real fucking jobs.
That was good.
All right, do you mind?
Sorry.
Yeah.
To the next caller?
All right.
Well, thank you, Will.
Up next is Katja.
She wrote in and said, As for so many others, Freedomain Radio has drastically changed my life.
Before listening, I never wanted to have kids, but the show has changed my mind, and I'm looking forward to doing a fantastic job as a wife and mother in the future.
I see it as a great honor to be a stay-at-home mom and take care of everything in the home.
My question slash dilemma is that I now want to go find a great man to be with.
I have thought of going traveling and working along the way to try and find someone that is fond of country life, nature, and animals, as am I. Or should I start my education instead?
All the work I've done up to now are very physically hard jobs.
I am not very career-minded, but I'm a great worker.
I've lived alone since I was 20.
I'm 25 now.
I've worked on farms and am self-taught in everything.
I can and am independent and love challenges.
There are so many other opportunities, but I really just want to find a man to share the path of life with.
Is this enough?
What do good quality men look for in a woman?
I thought so much about this and discussed it with some people, but never really got a satisfying answer.
So I figured I might as well talk to Steph about it.
I am so desperate.
I am so without answers.
I have talked to every human being on the planet.
And oh my god.
It's down to Steph.
How could it have come to this?
How could I have come to having to talk to Steph?
I'd just like to point out the contrast in calls today.
Cool.
Katja, was it?
Yes, yes, yes.
Am I pronouncing that relatively okay?
Well, you're pronouncing it like everybody who speaks English.
Okay, how would you pronounce it in your native tongue?
Katcha.
Katcha.
Wait, did that sound the same to me, or is that just...
It's not the same.
Okay, okay.
Well, I apologize for that, but if it's any consolation, American people try to pronounce my name too, so...
Well, I like it.
I like Katcha, so...
Let's do fine.
Malinux and Desj and Burton.
And they always forget the Esquire, which you think is ex-colonist.
Anyway...
I do actually have it in a squire, but it doesn't really matter.
Okay.
So you sound like a woman with a very strong back.
So first of all, if I need to move, I will.
Well, I'm not very big.
I'm like a tiny person, but I'm stubborn and muscles, they do develop when you use them.
So yes.
How many kids do you want, do you think?
Two.
Two, okay.
A boy and a girl.
So just be a reproduction.
If it's perfect.
I'm not going to scroll the ranks.
Okay.
All right.
So it's interesting because it kind of flipped around at the end there, Katja, because your first question was sort of like how to find a good man.
And then the last part was, what does a good man look for in a woman?
Mm-hmm.
So, it's sort of like...
I'm not sure which to focus on, if that makes sense.
Yeah, well, I think that's my problem as well.
That I'm trying to find a way to get that man, and I am trying to figure out what they might look for, I guess.
Yeah, okay.
So I think to synthesize those two, I would not assume that they're different.
In other words, the qualities that you would look for in a good man would be the qualities that a good man would look for in you.
If that makes sense.
Yes.
Now, in particular, if you want to have kids, you may be looking for slightly different standards.
I think you probably would be.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's not like it's necessary for me to have kids.
The man is more important to me because I've been living alone all of my life.
I connected more with animals than with people.
We never talked very much in my family, so...
It was all about the animals, so I've just been living alone and doing my own thing, but...
Then I discovered your show and I was like, hey, oh, so there are good people out there.
Well, that's great to hear.
That's great to hear.
So, when it comes to kids, Katja, what I would suggest is, it sounds like a cold word, but it's a really important word, which is utility.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, if you were going into business with someone, you would want them to provide value with you, to you, and you would want them to provide equal value, though obviously not identical value, right?
Yeah, well, that's exactly what I've been thinking about, because everyone I ask, they're like, oh, you should get an education and everything, like start a career, and I'm like, I don't really want that.
I don't really feel like I have the time, you know, because I'm 25 and I want to meet someone now, and And get a relationship, get to know him, so we can have a life together.
You're wise.
Yeah, I mean, so you go to school, that's going to take you to 28 or 29.
You start a career that's going to put you into your early 30s.
I mean, you know, eggs getting a wee bit dusty there, Captain Picard, right?
Exactly.
I would say now is a good time.
I'm a big fan of, like, you know, have the kids early and then go have an uninterrupted career.
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking.
I think, yeah, go get educated, have a career, and then you've got to have this, if you want to be a good parent, you know, this five to ten year interruption right in the middle.
That doesn't make much sense to me.
Anyway.
So, what do you want...
Forget about virtues just for a second.
What would you...
What would you want from a man who was going to be the father of your children, just in terms of utility?
Let's just talk real, bold value to you as a mom.
Yeah, that's a difficult question because...
Well, no, it's not.
You're right.
It's not really...
It's a difficult question if you don't want to be honest about what women need who are going to become moms, right?
Well, I can tell you what I don't want.
I don't want...
I do and don't want someone like my father.
He's a great man, but he was not emotionally available, though he's like...
He's still a great father, because when I started talking about all this in Freedom and Radio and stuff, he started changing and he wanted to listen.
But still, I want someone who's going to love everybody.
Yeah, no, see, that's not utility.
We'll get to that, right?
But let's focus on utility first.
Right, so what are the practical things that you need from a man who's going to be the father of your children?
Excuse me, say it again.
What are the practical things that you need from a man who's going to be the father of your children?
Well, he's obviously going to be like, just like Will, he said, like, I don't want these spineless guys who's just like sitting down smoking weed and not wanting to do anything.
Like, I want someone who wants to do something and make something of himself and Get out there.
No, no, no.
See, if...
Okay, if...
Not make something of himself, but has something already.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
Right?
I mean, you don't want to pick a guy who's like, I want to be a drummer.
No, no, no more drummers.
Wait, you've dated drummers?
No.
No, he wasn't that good at all, but yeah.
But you have dated a drummer, he just wasn't a good drummer, or other things?
Uh, both.
Both.
Right, right.
Right, no, I get this thing with drummers, which I've talked about before.
Drummers!
The enemy!
No, because many, many years ago, I was dating a woman, and I was like a professional, I had a good income, and you know, very successful, and all that.
And she's like, I'm dating a drummer!
And We hung out a lot.
He was a drummer on a cruise ship.
We hung out a lot and all that.
And I was like, I was interested.
But she was like, I'm dating a drummer.
I'm like, oh my god.
If I can't compete with a drummer, either I'm a terrible human being or I'm dating entirely the wrong person.
And I actually came to the latter conclusion.
But that perhaps is a story for another time.
Okay, so you want someone who's, you know, I think you want someone who's got some resources, right?
I assume that you want to breastfeed, you want to stay home with the kids, right?
Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm planning on.
And have you thought, like, in terms of education, would you maybe put them in a private school, some Montessori or Waldorf thing, or would you put them in a government school, or would you homeschool them?
I mean, what are your thoughts?
I would like to homeschool them as much as I can.
There are some things that I can't do, like math and stuff, but I would like to hire someone to do the stuff I can't do.
It's very true, and it's also equally true that people who say math and stuff are not good at math.
Yeah.
In fact, the use of the phrase, and stuff, makes you an artist.
Yeah, well, I had a very terrible math teacher, so I have this fear of numbers.
Right, right.
Okay, so if you're going to put them in some kind of outside education facility, you need the money for that.
And if you're going to homeschool, then you can't work.
Now, you're in the country or you're going to be somewhere out there, so you can maybe keep some chickens, you can grow some food, particularly vegetables, grow some fruit, right?
And the kids would learn a lot and love that kind of stuff, right?
Yeah, I want to have my own animals for meat and grow my own stuff.
I love that.
Right, okay.
By staff, she means to me.
Food.
Yeah, food.
Yeah, yeah, got it.
Food and stuff.
I was kidding.
So, but you're going to need some land, you're going to need a house, maybe a vehicle or whatever.
So the guy's going to have to provide some resources and you will be providing resources.
I mean, parenting is a huge resource and you'll be providing food and taking care of the animals and so on.
But it will be limited by the time you're going to need to spend parenting, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, you're going to need a man who has, you know, he doesn't have to be rich or anything, but he's going to have to have some material substance, I suppose, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Or want to do this because I could help in the beginning a lot before we had children.
I could help a lot with money and work to make it happen, you know?
Right, right, right, right.
Okay.
So, you're going to need a man who understands that.
And, you know, it always feels like I'm, and I had to learn this myself, Katja, too, as an adult, but it feels like I'm teaching how to read and write to adults.
So you're going to need a man who understands that you're going to spend a lot of time parenting, particularly when the kids are young, right?
I mean, you have two kids, you want to breastfeed them for a year and a half, and you maybe want six or 12 months between them, right?
We're already talking three, four, five years, right?
While you're breastfeeding.
And the kids are up all night sometimes, so you may get a sleeper, you may not get a sleeper.
It's sort of luck of the draw.
So a man is going to know that he's going to shoulder those responsibilities for a lot of the resource provision kind of early on.
So I think, you know, if...
Well, you wouldn't have wanted me at your age, because I was much of a radical egalitarian person.
Back then, because I was just so heavily propagandized, like most people.
But I think that you want a man as opposed to a sperm donor or a lesbian with a turkey baster.
And therefore, I think you're going to want somebody who recognizes the essential and valuable division of labor that is involved in there being males and females, right?
Which is kind of what we talked about at the beginning of the show.
So you want a man who's comfortable and happy being a man and who is...
They're comfortable and happy with women, right?
And the way that you do that, since men and women are different, is you recognize the value, right?
Somebody who likes men and women is somebody who recognizes the value that men and women bring.
That is not the same.
Yeah.
If that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah.
And so somebody who is very respectful and respectful of the contributions that you're going to be bringing as, you know, a hard worker, a woman who's got knowledge of country living and some farming techniques and who's also going to be a great mom.
Somebody who respects that and values that and recognizes that he's not going to be providing exactly the same thing, if that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I've always been pissed off about that thing that We're supposed to, that men and women are supposed to do the same things.
I've always hated feminists so much.
Even before I thought about it, I didn't really have an opinion of why, but I was just like, ugh, no, ugh, it's just wrong.
When you spend so much time around animals, you really get the realistic view of how things are supposed to be, if you know what I mean.
Well, we are animals.
Yeah, I'll give up this when, you know, urinals vanish, right?
I mean, if men and women can't even pee the same way, I'm willing to accept that there's some things that are slightly different between the genders.
But we're designed to be compatible.
This is the annoying thing.
We're designed to be compatible by recognizing where we're not the same.
You can't put a jigsaw puzzle piece together if you think all the pieces are the same shape.
You have to recognize that they're different shapes and how they fit together.
You can put them on top of each other.
Yes, but you end up just with a pillar of non-picture.
So I think somebody who recognizes and respects the different contributions that men and women...
So somebody who's actually into evolution rather than this pseudoscientific Marxist feminist crap, right?
And so, somebody who's truly empirical and scientific, I think is important.
Somebody who is, you know, recognizes in life, you know, as Kid Rock says, you get at what you put in.
To some degree, people get what they deserve, like he's willing to work hard, he's willing to put the time and effort in to achieve a quality family life.
And as somebody who's free of stereotypes, because stereotypes almost always bring self-attack for a variety of reasons.
So somebody who's willing to look at the world originally and think for himself, I would assume, is someone who'd be very important to you.
Yeah, yeah.
It's really, really important that it's someone that can think for himself.
Like you say, it's very, very important.
Right, right.
Because I can respect that and I can look up to that and, you know, trust that person.
Right, right.
And I'm trying to think.
So, yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, I've got the book Real-Time Relationships, you know, honesty and self-knowledge and all of that, I think, are very important.
Yeah, yeah, I read it.
Can I just be annoyingly shallow as well?
Yeah.
Kasia, you're like super pretty, too.
I'm sorry, but I'm just telling you.
Because even features and good genes and all that, you're very, very pretty.
And I just wanted to mention that as well.
I know, I know.
Trust me.
Okay, good.
And I appreciate that, honestly, because a lot of women are like, oh, really?
Tell me more.
But no, because a lot of men might have this stereotype of like, oh, she works a lot with animals.
She's got to be a meter across the hips easily, right?
But no, I just wanted to mention that.
You're very attractive, which is, of course, something that is somewhat important, perhaps a little bit more so to men than women.
So I just wanted to mention that.
Good genes.
Genes get a kibble.
Good genes.
Yeah.
So, yeah, so, I mean, you know, I think honor, integrity, clear thinking, honesty, openness, you know, all of that kind of stuff, I think is really essential for that.
And, of course, I think you want a man, we talked about this earlier in the show, who's, you know, able to put a game face on when he needs to and go out and fight the good fight, but who is warm-hearted, sensitive, and emotionally open to you and to the children when at home.
Yeah, well, I would respect a person who came up to me and was asking questions and not just being like, ooh, all the time.
I'm sorry, what is in that ooh?
I'm not sure I got the full complexity of your dating experience from me.
I just want to take you home and bend you over and stuff like that.
Oh, because your shoe's untied?
Sorry, I didn't quite...
Who also wants some quality instead of just right here, right now.
Well, I think, you know, the people who annoy me...
Oh boy, there's a big category.
Anyway, but to narrow it down to this particular aspect of the conversation, and I'm sure this must be annoying for women as well, guys who...
I don't know, does this happen to you as a pretty woman?
Guys who put on a show...
They're not just asking questions, having a conversation with you to look for potential compatibility like a normal person, but they're kind of putting on a show.
They're either bragging subtly or talking about who they know or how cool they are.
I don't know.
The people who put on a show I find kind of exhausting, and I don't think you'd want anyone like that.
Oh, my God.
The first time I actually experienced this was when I traveled to the States.
Because, oh my god, they're bad.
They're really, really bad.
Like, Danish guys, they're like floppy things that can't really do anything.
I've never really...
really meant to...
I'm sorry, what?
What?
Wait.
Did you actually say floppy things?
Floppy guys who can't do anything?
Yeah.
I don't think I've seen that on any Danish tourist...
Come to Denmark, where we have floppy men who can't do anything.
You're right, that's great.
I think we have a show title, Floppy Men Who Can't Do Anything, right?
I thought you were going to talk about Hugh Grant's hairdo or something.
What does that mean, Floppy Men Who Can't Do Anything?
They don't approach you at all.
It's like they just don't do anything.
They play video games and smoke weed and it's just really boring.
But then you go to the States and there they, oh my god, they know how to put up a show.
So kind of find someone in the middle, I'm thinking.
Tell me more.
Do you mean like, I mean...
So Danish guys don't ask you out?
What do they say?
Well, actually, I've never been asked out directly.
What?
No, they don't really do that.
Wait, are you considered not attractive by Danish standards?
I mean, that could be right.
No, I'm not, but I guess...
Okay, Danish men, can I just...
Can I give a short speech to Danish men?
Do you mind?
Sorry, because you were just in the middle of saying something.
No, please, please say something to them.
Do that.
Because actually, I had this guy group that I hung out with, and they never hit on me.
I've known them for years.
And then it came to me as a surprise.
I was like, what?
Where did that come from?
I thought you didn't know.
Wait, someone finally roused himself from his joystick marijuana haze?
Yeah, like years after I met them.
And I was just like, okay, so that's new.
Did you meet them when you were 12?
Were they waiting for you to become legal?
I mean, what does that mean?
No, not at all.
I think I met them when I was like 18 or something.
So wait, so some guy was attracted to you for years and didn't ask you out?
Apparently.
Did they think they're immortal?
I don't know.
Oh, what's a couple of years in the grand scheme of things?
Well, it's a substantial portion of your floppy life.
Well, they don't even look.
They're just, like, dead.
What do you mean they don't even look?
Well, they don't even give you a look so that you can approach them or something.
Like, they don't even show that they're interested.
Hang on.
So you're in tight jeans, Katja.
You bend over to tie up your shoelace and they're like, hey man, you're in the way of the TV. I mean, how do they even know if you're bendy?
Bend you over.
Oh my god, I'm so sorry.
I would like to apologize on behalf of all men who have a spine for your description of these Danish noodle bugs that you apparently have been surrounded by.
Yeah.
Oh, man.
I mean, is Hamlet a myth, or is this actually the way it is?
I don't know.
I don't know what happened.
Is this the national myth?
420!
Blaze, baby!
But then you kind of go to the States, and you're just like...
I was at this festival, and they were like, oh, do you want to come and cuddle?
And that's like the first thing they say to you after...
Like, maybe say a little bit more before, but then it's like, do you want to come and cuddle?
I'm like, no!
Yeah.
No, they're like, you know, that's the easy way.
If you can get a person to cuddle, then it can easily move on to something more interesting.
I don't know.
Cuddle?
I mean, don't get me wrong.
It's all well and good, but it's just got this mommy aspect.
Do you want to come and cuddle, mommy?
I mean, person I don't know very well.
Well, they have to be careful.
They're around a lot of feminists, so...
Oh, right, right.
Alright, so can I just say something to Danish men?
Yes, please do.
Okay.
Danish men, if what Katja is saying to you is true, you are in grave danger of just becoming fairly close to extinct panda bears.
Katja and her glorious golden eggs are waiting for you.
Apparently, they're on display.
They're a little bit out in the country.
But I'm sure you can hitchhike.
Try and get out to where Katya is.
She is an intelligent woman with a delightful laugh.
She's attractive.
She's intelligent.
She listens to this show!
So, by God, that's about as perfect a woman as you can imagine.
She's hardworking, strong back, muscles, and her eggs are clamoring for your contribution.
Now, if your boys...
Both of them that are left can even drift upstream.
I'm not asking them to swim.
Nobody's asking them to do butterfly stroke or front crawl up a waterfall.
Just, you know, go with the flow.
I'm sure she'd be willing to stand on her head to help those little boys fall down to where they need to get to.
If they don't mind, you know, lazily knocking on the giant egg, maybe worming their way in a tiny little bit, just inviting themselves in, you know, hey man, can I like crash here for a little bit?
You know, I'll get a job soon, but I'm just passing through and just give me a couch in the egg.
You know, maybe we'll make a baby, maybe we won't.
You know, do you have an Xbox in there?
Because, you know...
I don't like to do drugs when I'm not playing video games.
So, you know, given that we're all upside down and everything, I'd really like to try doing a bong, smoking a bowl from this angle, upside down, in an egg, in Katya, with a console.
Can we get that going?
That would be excellent!
Oh, please.
That makes some terrible images in my head.
I'm afraid those images have now spread worldwide.
So, what is the birth rate in Denmark?
Oh, here we go.
All right.
Birth make in Denmark.
In 1966, 18.4 per thousand people.
2011, 10.6 per thousand.
Can we get a non-Muslim population?
Because I assume 10.7 is Muslim, so 10.6 per thousand is probably these guys having such a low birth rate that they're actually making babies disappear in the hospital.
Just by accident, man.
I thought I saw a baby there.
I turn around.
It's like totally gone.
Like, whoa.
Oh, man.
Oh, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry about what modernity has done to men.
Well, that's why I'm thinking about getting out of the country because I'm like, I can't stand it.
Where are the men?
Where are the men?
That's my problem.
That's really my problem.
I'm like, where the fuck am I going to go?
And...
Yeah.
And I'm just like, go somewhere.
Oh, yeah.
So what are these Danish men living on?
I mean, I know it's kind of lefty, but I mean, you...
Do at some point, don't you have to get a job or something?
Or they're like working at Starbucks and working on screenplays that they never finish or whatever?
Pretty much.
Well, I didn't get that right first try, did I? Yes, you pretty much.
I got a great idea for a video game.
So to do that, I'm going to play video games to see what the market's all about, man.
Yeah, well, the friends that I have, they're like...
One of them has gone mentally ill.
One of them, he's just playing video games.
Most of them are just smoking weed all the time.
And that's pretty much it.
They do some volunteer work at bars and stuff.
What?
Volunteer work at bars?
Come on.
That's not even a volunteer work, let it out.
Not a real job.
I volunteer at a bar.
You can put it on your resume.
Oh my god!
I worked at a bar, but I wasn't even productive enough to get paid.
I just liked being around alcohol.
Can I get an internship?
Why, no, you can't.
Oh my god, I volunteer at a bar?
I mean, volunteer at a hospital, yes.
Volunteer at a women's shelter or a men's shelter, absolutely.
Volunteer at a bar.
Oh, I'm crying.
Okay, Katja, I'm not a big one for the initiation of force.
You know that, right?
Let me make a big exception here.
Yeah.
Do you mind if I swear?
Oh, please swear.
I'm a kind of girl.
Okay, you broke the ice.
You broke the ice.
So this is my suggestion, all right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Go to where your friends are.
Go down the 19 or 20 steps into their parents' sub-basement or wherever the hell these denizens of antiquity hang out.
You know, lean your way, shoulder your way into the bong-smoked, compressed air of their vacuum chamber of inconsequentiality and ask them to sit together on a couch.
Close together.
Turn off the television, turn off the Xbox, and just listen to them to say, hey, not cool.
And ask them to put their heads fairly close together, okay?
Now, do you wear rings?
Like, yeah, I have a ring, yeah.
Are they heavy rings?
It's pretty big, yeah.
Okay, so, you know, when you do this, just do me a favor, take the rings off, right?
I don't want to hurt anyone.
Like, really.
Well, wake people up and not hurt them, okay?
So, ask them to sit with their heads close together.
Now take your hand back.
And then, how many people have we got?
Like three, four, five on the couch here?
Yeah, five.
Right.
Take your hand up, and then whackity, whackity, whackity.
Now I guess, what have they got?
Like half hipster beards kind of thing going on?
Yeah, like this mutation of soul patch nonsense going on across their face.
It's like shadows on a big door.
It's like if they took those pictures, like those one pictures a day, there'd be this swirly cloud cover of weird beard shit covering their lower faces, right?
Yeah, well, they had this period where they just wanted to look scruffy all the time because you have to fight against looking good and stuff like that.
Right.
It's so bourgeois.
Right.
Okay.
So you take your hand back, you got the rings off in your pocket, and you go, wackity, wackity, wackity, soul patch, wackity, wackity, wackity.
And do you know what you say?
Pull yourselves together, motherfuckers.
No, no, no, no.
No, no.
You've got to appeal to something primal, something deeper.
And I think I know what to appeal to that is primal and deep in the Danish culture.
Are you ready?
Fuck this Xbox, Hamlet, bullshit artist, floppy hair, do nothing, lay about motherfuckers!
You used to be Vikings!
Now go out there and pillage Ireland and bring mommy some brandy!
I really don't know if I would even bother doing that.
I think they would be so scared that they'd piss themselves.
Go bring me back the leprechaun on the head of a pike, you do nothing mother...
I don't know why I would do it with them, because it's kind of a lost cause.
I'm like...
I'm not really very attracted to them.
They're very, very good looking, all of them, actually.
But they're just not interesting at all.
Oh my god.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, good-looking people who are vacuous, it's like, lights on, nobody home.
They're like very, very, very good-looking, all of them.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, but basically it's like banging a smoky mannequin, right?
Yeah, so I'm just thinking about just heading out.
I actually thought about taking my dogs and go to Australia.
They have some great visa rules there that you can travel around and you can work 50% of the time.
What is wrong?
And I've heard this complaint about some European men in general, though I've never quite heard it put as bluntly as you are.
Do you have any thoughts about...
What is happening to these men?
I mean, I have this image, like when I was younger, like Danes, I was good friends with a Danish kid.
It's like, yeah, I could see why Central Europeans would sometimes like, oh, shit, did you hear a Dane?
Is there a date around?
Okay, no?
Okay, okay.
Those guys are huge and scary, you know?
They're like the villagers out of How to Train Your Dragon.
Old beard and belly!
Anyway, go ahead.
Yeah, well, we pay a lot of taxes, so I guess we just rely on the system to save us at all times.
And they're kind of lazy in that way because they never take any chances.
Mm-hmm.
It's just like they're always saved.
So it's just like, oh, we have plenty of time and we can just sit back.
And if I lose my job, I can just get some money from the state and do that.
Yeah, you know, we all hate adversity.
The same way our muscles don't want to exercise, but the grim reality is that we grow in adversity.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, this is just the paradox of human existence, that everybody wants a risk-free existence, which is not even having an existence, and it certainly is not any kind of growth.
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly the problem.
Like, they're nothing.
Nothing, no risk, no nothing.
And it's so annoying because we've got these giant brains.
And the reason, as you know, Katya, that we have these giant brains is if we had a brain that was one-tenth of one percent smaller, we'd have died.
You know, because we kind of put all our eggs into one basket, so to speak.
It's like, okay, we're bald as shit.
We got no teeth.
We got no claws.
We're not really very strong.
We're not that great at climbing trees.
We can't eat grass.
So what do we got?
We got a brain.
We got a brain.
Now we've grown the most ridiculous organ in all of nature.
I mean, this insane brain that we have is ludicrous.
It's like having an elephant with a trunk three miles long.
It's like having a giraffe whose head regularly goes above cirrus clouds.
I mean, it's a ridiculously overdeveloped organ.
And the reason it's overdeveloped is like, we put everything into this brain, man.
It's, you know, those guys who are trying to hitchhike and they say, like, Las Vegas or bust?
Well, human beings, we took this giant risk alone in the animal kingdom.
We said, giant brain or we're gone, baby!
Giant brain or bust!
That's all we got.
Giant brain or we're going the way of the dodo.
We're dinosaur bound, baby!
And we put all our eggs into this giant brain.
And particularly those who went further and further north is like, oh, do you feel like eating your seed crop?
You dead!
Oh, you don't feel like planting anything, do you?
You dead!
Oh, you don't feel like milking your eggs?
They dead, therefore you dead!
I mean, anybody who didn't defer gratification, who didn't like milk as much brain thought as they could out of this ridiculous giant mutated organ we've got between our ears, they're dead!
I mean, we are the product.
The reason they can play this Xbox is we've got this giant mutated brain that came out of, boy, if I don't get another three brain cells out of the next generation, this whole ridiculous experiment of brain overdevelopment is dead!
We're gone!
We got nothing!
Nothing!
And we've just squeezed every ounce of ingenuity and brilliance and potential and creativity out of this unbelievable dice roll.
That no way should it have worked.
No way should we have this brain that works.
No way should we end up dominating the planet.
I mean, there's just no way.
It's unprecedented in natural history for a species to dominate an ecosystem the way that we dominate it.
So we really, really risk.
We could have stayed apes.
Yeah, you know, not a bad life.
Scratch your ass.
Pick some nits off the other person's hair.
Eat a couple of bananas.
Take a shit.
Fuck and go to sleep.
Not a bad life.
There's times when I envy it.
I love when you talk about monkeys, Steph.
I can talk slowly about monkeys if it works for you too, right?
But we were like, you know what?
Fuck monkeys.
Fuck them.
I'm bored.
This is some lazy ass shit.
If I have to pick one more fucking mite out of some guy's ass, I think I'm going to shoot myself.
And I can't even do that because they're too stupid to make guns.
So we're just like, fuck that.
I'm not going to be a monkey anymore.
I'm going to start growing this brain.
It's like, grow brain.
You know what?
It's way too easy here in the jungle, in the heat.
You know what?
Let's just go north.
Let's go north until our brain grows or we die.
That's what we're going to do.
We're going to head north until there's two of us left.
We have the largest brains and then we're gonna have sex and then 90% of the rest of us are gonna die off until there are two more people who have the biggest brains and then they're gonna have sex and we're gonna grow this ridiculous organ So that we can dominate the world.
Because monkeys sure as hell ain't dominating the world.
They don't do shit in the Antarctic.
But we can go and have a tent there if we want.
We can go and build fires on the glaciers if we want.
We can light them up with satellites if we want.
We can send drones over if we want.
Steph, you have to stop.
I can't remember all this.
If I'm going to say all this to the Danish guys, it's too much.
Just play this.
And it's recorded.
You know that.
You're recording.
So...
What annoys me is that we finally...
The amount of suffering and death and...
Oops!
Dead!
Oops!
Dead!
That's all evolution is.
Oops!
Dead!
Oops!
Didn't notice the tiger in the grass.
Dead!
Oops!
Slipped on something.
Ah!
Pfft!
Dead!
Oops!
Dead!
That's all it is.
And one tiny bit less oops and you get to live.
And one regular sized oops and you are just a smear in history who contributes nothing.
Four billion years of evolution.
Pfft!
Oops!
Gone.
Dead.
That's it.
Done.
And so we've got this giant brain that allows us to make ridiculously complicated things like an Xbox and grow and transport weed everywhere.
We've got this ridiculously giant brain that came about through the most unbelievable suffering.
The giant brain is like This piece of art that is handed to us by generations of dead people who died because their brains weren't quite big enough.
And it's like, oh, you got three extra brain cells.
Here, take this.
Don't drop the torch.
Don't die out.
You know, there's a novel I read years and years ago.
Larry Niven and some other guy called Lucifer's Hammer about a comet that hits the world.
And everybody is sliding into...
A kind of ape-like existence, and they're downgrading their expectations, and they're giving up on things, and they don't have electricity.
And finally, one guy gives a speech, and I don't remember it all, but at the end he says, and we used to control the lightning as a species.
Now we're becoming afraid of the sky, but we used to control the lightning, because we had electricity.
And it's like, anyway, they all change.
They own...
They all change and they decide to reverse this decay, this devolution.
They go and work and they create things and finally they see a contrail flying after the civilizations.
And this is the thing is that we've got this giant brain that's been handed to us through incredible suffering and the greatest risks that any species has ever taken.
You know, most species just get killed off by shit.
But we like, I know it's not a conscious metaphor, but we like take this gamble, you know.
You know, everything on the giant brain, all of our chips, four billion years of evolution that create one slightly bald ape, all of it's going on the giant brain.
It's giant brain or nothing, baby.
That's all we got.
Only thing we didn't go for.
And we did not come up, you know, like it was like five 20s on a D20 in a row, you know.
Holy shit, giant brain actually worked.
Now we rule the planet.
We're on top of, we can have these conversations on Xbox.
And you guys have taken this giant brain, this giant brain that has been handed to us.
Through thousands and thousands and thousands of generations of unbelievable suffering to produce this incredible, exquisite, world-ruling, solar planet-exploring, Hubble telescope peering up the ass of God viewfinders, and you're fucking playing video games and smoking this shit.
Come on!
Talk about inheriting an unbelievable legacy.
Look, Here's the Mona Lisa.
It's been given to you by people who died by the thousands to bring it across Nazi Germany to get you the treasures of the Nazi empire.
They stole into the Nazi chambers.
They got the Mona Lisa.
Here it is for you.
And you're like, hey man, I could get a lot of smoke in this.
I roll up that Mona Lisa and smoke it.
Man, I could really get fucking high.
Whoa!
Galileo!
That's great!
Da Vinci!
Whoa!
No wonder she was smiling that way!
This is totally how I feel about people smoking weed.
I'm so sick of people smoking weed all the time.
Oh my god!
Are you done?
You know, there's a line from Harold and Kumar's The Go to White Castle, where the guy's got a...
He's really smart, but he doesn't want to do anything.
And he says, well, just because you've got a big dick doesn't mean you have to do porn.
And you have a giant brain.
You have a giant brain.
We are the pinnacle of evolution because we've won.
We won against all odds.
You know, there's like four billion years of life and it's barely smarter than when it started.
You know, like before human beings came along.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know Coco.
The gorilla had an IQ of 85, which, anyway, topic for another time.
But, you know, not that smart.
You know, I've seen apes at the zoo.
You know, they're not doing quadratic equations.
They are not solving Planck's theorem.
They're not saying, ooh, closed box.
I wonder if there's a cat inside it or not.
Basically, they're charging people, breaking at the glass, screwing, scratching their asses, and attempting to eat flies out of the air.
Not exactly the pinnacle of intellectual achievement, our good friends, the apes.
So basically, for me, four billion years.
Four billion years.
That's a lot of time.
That's a lot of time.
And four billion years, what do you got?
Hey, I like bananas, but I can't vocalize that because I don't have language.
Not that much smarter at the end than at the beginning.
And then human beings come along.
Well, we kind of raised the game quite a bit.
And what an unbelievable gift from dumb, blind, stupid evolution to be granted this brain that can make the most incredible connections, can make the most incredible artwork, can make the most incredible electronics, can make the most incredible poetry and philosophy.
and all people want to do is watch moving pixels and kill their lungs.
Yeah, well, it's true.
It's true.
But what am I going to do?
Yeah, if you have a giant dick, you don't have to do porn.
That doesn't mean you have to take a smoky cheese grater to it and saw it off.
Anyway.
Weed.
Okay, so what am I going to do?
Oh, I think I've been very clear.
Yeah, because, like, I'm very...
I like it out here.
I just want someone in my life I can talk to.
You can't talk so much to horses and dogs and cats and stuff.
Yeah.
No, I think that's partly what the point I'm making.
Yeah.
Yeah, what can I say?
Start an FDR meetup group in Denmark?
Well, I think there is such a thing, but...
Most of these people, they're like city people, and they're afraid of stepping into shit.
Like, oh, there's poop on my shoe.
Wait, they're afraid of stepping into shit, but they want philosophy.
That's the job description.
No, because except for the heroin that he used, my favorite guy was a guy from France.
He was actually Greek.
He had these problems.
Wait, he used heroin like the drug?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And at the time, I was like only 19, so I thought that, oh, he's gonna change now and everything.
Obviously he didn't, but he could go out.
He could work.
He could get smudged in and sheep shit and come in and be all sticky and take a shower.
That was nice.
That was really nice, but just a shame that he had to...
And have you done any therapy or anything like that?
No.
I have not.
I mean, if you have something in common with people who take a lot of drugs, it might be worth figuring out why.
Yeah.
I just didn't see it as a problem at all.
But now I see, of course, that I should never have gone into it.
But, yeah.
He...
He was good looking.
He was really tall.
He could work.
Oh no.
So he had the male equivalent of big tits, right?
He had a very big hammer in his hand the first time I saw him.
Come on.
What am I supposed to do?
He had a very big hammer in his hand.
I feel like this is the opening line of like a script for gay porn or something.
Well, yeah.
He looked like something.
He really looked like something.
He was the alpha in the short-term reproductive strategy.
Yeah, yeah.
Their gear doesn't work properly with heroin.
I can tell you that for sure.
Oh, you mean he couldn't get it up when he was stoned?
No.
Right, right.
Yeah.
All hammer, no nail, right?
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
I mean, I think now, and we can talk about this if you want, you know, sorry to switch gears on you, but, you know, we've been looking at your ACE score.
That you did have verbal abuse and threats, your parents divorced, and you had a household member who was depressed, mentally ill, or had a suicide attempt?
Yeah, well, she was not when I was born, but my mother, she tried to commit suicide just before she met my dad.
I think she was like 23 or something like that.
So it's not when I was there, but it followed her always.
She was always Depressed because he didn't give her enough attention.
But he provided for her.
He came with all the money and everything.
Wait, wait, wait.
Is that her story?
That she was depressed because he never gave her enough attention?
Yeah.
Well, I remember the story that she told me about when they got married.
They got married for financial reasons.
It's beneficial in some way.
I don't know how.
They married for financial reasons.
I don't know what that means.
No, me neither.
But they did.
Apparently there are some benefits being married.
Oh, like you get some tax benefits?
No, I think it's just because they could take a loan because they didn't have any money because they had too big a house.
And my mother, she didn't want to work because she wanted to stay home with us.
So my dad, he had to work a lot.
To get the money.
So she was sad that he left on their wedding day to work because she wanted to stay at home.
That's pretty sad.
Wait, okay.
So I'm just trying to follow the emotional throughput here because you said it was sad and then you laughed and then you said it was very sad.
I noticed.
No, and I'm just wondering what does that mean?
Yeah, I just think that it's sad that she didn't see why he was doing it.
That she was just sitting there all crying and being like, oh my god, he left on my wedding day, but he had to get the money.
Why did he have to get the money?
Because she wasn't working.
She didn't want to work.
No, but you just downgrade what you do, right?
I mean...
If the woman doesn't want to work and doesn't want the man to work as much, then you have to take a smaller place, you have to live in a worse section of town, or whatever.
Because she didn't want to give up the house.
She wanted the house as well.
So she wanted all the benefits of him working, and then she resented him working.
Yes, exactly.
It's a trap!
That's the sad thing about it.
Right, so there's a fundamental immaturity there, which your data, I assume, is enabling.
Yeah.
Which is, well, which do you want?
If you want the money, I have to work.
But then if you want the money, you can't complain about me working.
Yeah, exactly.
Now, if you want me there, then we can't have as much money.
And I don't know why these basic equations still need to be told to people, since they're kind of toddler 101.
Yeah.
But obviously, your dad enabled this, right?
Yeah, very much.
Without giving her those basic realities, right?
Yeah, well, he didn't do anything like...
She was yelling a lot.
Oh, my God.
She never hit us, but she yelled a lot.
Oh, my God.
She could slam the door so some of the ceiling came down.
I can remember the sound.
It's just like...
There ain't no laughing.
The ceiling coming down.
And I was very good.
No, no, no.
Don't give me these.
I mean, I'm happy to hear these sad stories, but not happy.
I'm willing to hear the sad stories, Katya, but you can give me the giggles too, right?
Yeah, I know.
I know.
You know, like, I mean, I get it.
And I've said this before to people and you probably heard it.
Oh, yeah.
A million times.
Yeah.
And you know what?
I bet you said, I can't believe those people are doing that, right?
No, I understood why they were doing it.
Did you think you were going to do it too?
Yeah.
Oh, you did?
Yeah.
Did you want to not?
No, it's just an honest response, and I'm like...
No, it's not an honest response.
No, no.
It's a defensive response.
But I was just like, I would rather stay in the conversation than think about not giggling, if you know what I mean.
Okay.
No, I get it.
Yeah, you don't want to be too self-conscious and modifying your natural response.
Yeah, because it can be hard for me to focus.
I can lose track very easily in a conversation, so...
Got it.
That's kind of what I thought about.
Okay, so tell me about the yelling.
That seems very...
I mean, a lot of it is important, but the yelling, I think, is really important.
Yeah, well, it started when we got older, obviously.
Like, when we were getting to the teens and wanting to do our own things, because I think that...
She's always said that it was the most important thing for her in her life to have kids.
And I just don't get why she would yell so much when that was the most important thing for her.
Or maybe she needed you as a poison container.
Maybe because if she's yelling and there's nobody there, they put her in an institution.
Maybe she needed to vent.
Maybe she needed receptacles that couldn't get away.
Maybe she needed involuntary relationships because she was not a person of quality that nice people would want to be around.
Yeah, because it was really, really annoying.
No, it was actually more terrifying because she would follow me around.
I was just going away from the conflict.
I really, really, really took that on, to just run away from the conflict.
I think that's why I ended up living in the country in the first place, because I live in a trailer, so I can just put it on the back of the car, and then I can just move whenever problems come to me.
I don't do that anymore, but I think that's where it comes from, because she would follow me around And the only way I could get away from her was to go into my room fast and lock the door and turn on some really loud music so I couldn't hear her and then she would eventually give up.
Yeah, I get that.
That's certainly mirrored experiences that I had for many years.
I could never understand why would you want to just follow someone around and scream at them?
It's really fucking annoying.
Like, that person...
Yeah, and it's weird.
Like, why?
Just stop.
Yeah, just, like, stop what you're doing.
There's this weird compulsion to it, right?
Where the person, like, can't let you get away from the situation or the environment.
It's like they follow you and you go to the bathroom and turn on the water and put your head under the taps and you can still hear them screeching and it's like, shut up!
What are you screaming about?
Like, I don't want to talk to you.
Like, it's...
And only kids?
Will you try that at a dinner party and see how long it lasts, right?
You try that on the subway, but it's only kids, right?
I mean, your dad could escape to work, but it's only the kids who have to be forced.
You vomit up all that history shit into them, right?
Yeah, that's something I thought of later after listening to your show.
Because I've always put my dad on a pedestal very, very much.
He never yelled or did anything, but he just...
He was just standing there.
He knew it was happening and he was just standing there.
He didn't do anything at all.
He never said anything to her.
He never stood up for us or tried to resolve things or ask her why she did that or that she should get some help.
He just didn't do anything.
And you get why we were talking earlier about a floppy man who can't do anything.
Yeah.
No, if you haven't identified the inaction on the part of your father and the effect that it had on you, you're going to be drawn to inert men, right?
Yeah, exactly.
That's why I'm very, very conscious about it.
And I want to dig down and figure out stuff.
But I'm very grateful to my dad because he's talking to me a lot and giving me a lot of information about About what happened when they met and everything.
That's really helpful.
But he's not connecting with what he did, though.
I don't feel that he is.
But he's really trying.
Okay, but you said what he did and what he didn't do, right?
Well, what he didn't do, yeah.
What would you like to say to him?
About what he didn't do.
What's that speech?
We all have those speeches, you know, and they're very important to know what they are.
It doesn't matter if you ever deliver them face to face, although it's great if you can.
Well, I have said it to him that, why didn't you do anything?
Like, why did you let her yell?
And just not do anything?
And his answer was that he just didn't think, he's just like, that's just what moms and daughters do to each other.
And that's, I assume, based on his mother?
I never asked him about that, but his mother, she had a history of dating alcoholics.
And then you end up with drug users, right?
Yeah, or one.
No, your friends smoke weed!
Don't everybody do that?
No, not everybody does weed!
Everybody I've met smokes weed.
Well, you might want to consider the circles you're moving in.
Mike, can you get me Danish weed consumption percentage?
I'll do my best.
Try to focus on elderly women in nursing homes.
No, I'm kidding.
Young men with glaucoma.
No, just yes, you can get me anything on that.
But no, I can't imagine that it's that chronic, but could be wrong, of course.
What do I know?
Well, I seem to find them everywhere I go in the world.
Sometimes I find someone who's not doing it, but...
So, what did you say to your dad about what he didn't do and what did he reply?
So he basically said that this is just what men and women...
Yeah, that's what mothers and daughters do, right?
Yeah, to each other.
And were you an only child?
Oh yeah, that's because he had a sister.
And her and the mother, my dad's mother, they were fighting.
And they still are, by the way.
That's why I don't want to go to any family dinners anymore.
Because it's always like this...
You know when there's this mood that nobody really wants to be there, but they're there anyways?
And it's always like this under the surface, like this tension in the air.
Every time I went anyways, I would just go to the bathroom because they had a very, very nice bathroom with a heated floor and I went up there and I used a towel as a cushion and I was just lying down on the floor.
I would rather do that than spend time with my family, so I kind of decided not to because it's just not nice.
Not nice.
Right, right.
Or more nothing than nice, actually.
Yeah, it's a lot of walking on eggshells and conflict avoidance.
Because people don't have the tools to resolve their conflicts, they just end up not talking about anything and avoidance.
But it's very tense, right?
Yeah.
And after I started talking about all this, a lot of them got really, really aggressive and very weird.
They said things that I didn't think that they could say, and the way they said it is just such a horrifying experience, actually.
Can you give me an example?
Yeah, well, it started with my dad.
And that was just like, I think I started doing phone calls with them first, because that was The easiest way for me in the beginning because I was terrified of doing it.
But I started with the phone calls and it was like two hour phone calls where I just talked to them about all these things because I've always been like this smiley girl.
Just smiling and doing my own thing.
Like I don't give a shit.
I just smile and do my own thing behind their backs.
Everything in secret.
But I started confronting them.
And first my dad and I just stopped talking to my grandma.
But then she was like, oh, this is really weird.
But she got the information from the rest of the family.
She has this way of being very manipulative and making people fight each other.
Not directly, but turning people against each other.
Yeah, that's what I wanted to say.
And she knew that there was something going on.
And then she was like, oh, come on over and talk to me.
And I went over there and talked to her because she said to me, like, I really want to know what's going on and I want to talk about it.
But then I came there and it ended up with just her babbling, saying, like, nobody wants to talk.
And she didn't really want to talk because it was just her talking.
She didn't listen at all.
Well, yeah, she said that she wanted to listen, but...
She just wanted them to do whatever she said.
Yeah.
No, I mean, I sympathize, Katja.
I really do.
I mean, it's a very difficult situation to take on the role of truth-teller or curiosity-seeker in the family.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Man, when I first got into this, I was ecstatic.
I was, like, so happy because I've never listened to anything because everybody was just full of shit.
It's just, like, all these...
Beliefs and stuff like that, but you had some evidence like you really spoke your case and I was just like wow okay I've never heard anyone say like that so I got really into it I was just like oh my god this is like hope for the family like I I can really do stuff now but then it turned out like I've got the healing hand truth Yeah, yeah.
I was just like, oh my god, I'm going to do all these good things and we're going to have this great relationship.
I know it's going to be hard, but I'm going to get through to them.
But now I'm just at the point like, it's not my fucking problem.
Because I'm not going to be the family healer person.
Because I'm just going to be fished into the net once again.
Oh, you can't.
You can't.
I mean, you can say to people...
No, they're going to try.
No, but you can't.
I mean, you can't heal people.
You can say, here's the medicine.
People got to take it, right?
It's the old thing.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink.
Oh, yeah, exactly.
That's the thing with my mom.
Because the first time I started talking about the show, she started listening, actually.
And she listened to it a lot.
And she was like, oh, I fall asleep to it.
And she had some really, like, she really sounded like she understood things.
But then I was like, I'm just going to cool it for a while, not talk to you for a month or something.
I just need to get my head right.
But then when I turned back to her, she's like, she's done nothing.
So I don't know what the fuck she was doing, because she was talking in great ways, but she didn't want to put it into action, you know?
Like, she didn't do anything.
And then I was just like, whoa, that was really disappointing, because you've just wasted my fucking time.
Right.
Now, when you really start to tell the truth just about anywhere, you realize the great lie of the supposed virtue called honesty.
You know, when you were growing up, didn't people say to you, Katja, they say, you should tell the truth.
Oh, yeah.
Tell the truth.
I was told, tell the truth and shame the devil.
Yeah.
Right?
Tell the truth.
I want you to tell me the truth.
Be honest.
Don't lie to me.
How many times your parents say that, your teachers say that?
Oh, my God.
My mom, she got really pissed off if I was lying.
I was lying a lot.
I was a master liar.
Oh, my God.
Right.
And then what happens is, you know, one of the most dangerous things in the world to do is to listen to the moral advice of your elders and apply it consistently.
Ooh, that's bad!
Ooh!
You see, people say they want honesty from you when they have a piece of information.
When you have a piece of information they want, then virtue is an honesty.
When you have a piece of information that is harmful to them, Then honesty is a vice.
And then you have to be something else.
Respectful or polite or diplomatic or, you know, don't rock the boat or whatever, right?
So there is no virtue called honesty.
If there was a virtue called honesty, then if you say things to your family that you've thought and felt for years, they would say, well, I'm so glad you told me because honesty is a virtue and this is how you honestly feel.
But what do they say instead?
Well, when I started being really true to myself, yeah, what the fuck?
I don't know.
They just didn't want to listen to it at all.
Right.
And you're attacked and rejected for being honest.
Because that honesty is inconvenient to people.
The honesty that is inconvenient is called evil.
And the honesty that is convenient is called a virtue.
But it's all about convenience.
It's all about emotional self-management.
There's not a hailstorm and a shitstorm worth of objective ethic or value in it.
Yeah, it was really, really disappointing to find out that this family who's always been like, oh, we're going to have a good time and...
Sit there with our food and our coffee and stuff.
And I came there and really wanted to get a conversation going.
But then everybody was just like, nope, that's not going to happen.
You're pretty dangerous now.
Go away.
Yeah, why do you have to drag up the past?
Why do you have to rock the boat?
We don't want to talk about these things.
It's long ago.
Move on.
Let it go.
Move on.
It's like, wait, I thought honesty was a virtue.
This is how I honestly think and feel.
Yeah, and the fear in their faces.
Oh, my God.
Whenever I brought it up, it made me like shaking and like really, really, really emotional because it really mattered to me and I was really, really scared of saying it.
Because nobody said anything.
Nobody ever taught me to do it.
So it's just like so scary to actually say it.
But it felt very good when I'd done it.
Even with the bad responses, it still felt good.
Because it was liberating.
It was kind of like I was moving further and further away from their ways by doing this.
Even though I didn't...
Because I took your advice like going in there without an agenda.
I was not going there to fix it.
I was just going there to speak out.
And let out my heart and say what I was heard about and what I thought.
So I kind of just gave them the freedom to...
Right.
Yeah, you know, they say that there's a universal taboo called incest, which doesn't even seem to be universal in some areas, depending on the definition.
But it's not true at all.
There's only one universal taboo, and that's honesty.
Genuine, emotional, factual, empirical honesty.
That is the universal taboo across all cultures.
You know, that which cannot Survive the truth should not survive.
Should not.
And this is why those who rely on defenses and suppression and manipulation view truth in the way that a vampire views sunlight, and for the same reason.
When sunlight hits the dead, they die.
Yeah, exactly.
That's exactly how it feels like.
Well, you know, I can't obviously summon your Prince Charming, but what I can say, Katya, is that I'm very sorry that this is your ongoing experience of honesty with your family that is a brutal and illuminating experience.
And there's a reason why it feels like stepping off a cliff, to be honest, with people in your life, because you find out everything you need to know about your relationship with them or lack thereof, and whether they actually love you or whether they only like your convenience and Carbon dioxide.
But I will say this, that when talking about your history, you still have, and I get it, I mean, it makes sense to me, but you still have kind of an emotional distance with it.
Yeah, yeah.
It's scary and it's painful, but you're giving kind of bravado laughs about it.
That's going to signal to emotionally mature people that, and I'm with sympathy and care and concern and affection, but it is going to signal to people that you still have a lot of stuff that's unprocessed that you're recalling from.
Yeah.
And I sympathize, and I'm not saying there's any reason why it would be different given where you are, but the sooner you can really dig in, as you said earlier, dig down and deal with that stuff, the sooner I think your heart will be open in a clear and uncomplicated way.
Because when people say very sad things with that little laugh, or even a big laugh, or with jokes, what they're saying is, I am not emotionally available to you, because I am not emotionally available to myself, because it's too painful for me to...
Accept these feelings and slash or it is I do not have the trust in my social environment to think that I can say these sad things without a laugh because that gets me off the hook.
I'm not genuinely hurt and therefore I don't expect people to genuinely care but I can laugh about it.
And see if people are willing to actually care enough to call me out on my laughter.
So it simply says that you're not in a situation of security yet with yourself or with your environment.
And that means that you're not going to be emotionally available to someone in any consistent way.
Yeah.
The funny thing is that the way I got into this whole thing was that drummer guy.
He lived here with me for three months to do the lambing season.
And he was very much into the whole red pill thing.
And he came across one of your podcasts and it was really hard for me because I opened up to him And he didn't want to hear it.
And I just thought, like, it was after we'd listened to this show together, and then I thought that we were going somewhere, and I wanted to hear his stuff, and I wanted to share mine, but it was just really humiliating.
Well, what happened?
I mean, you were telling him about your thoughts and your feelings, and what was his response?
Well, he's just like stone-faced sitting there or...
Actually, more started like after he'd been here for three months, it got better and better and went to Norway and traveled around.
And then he was going to go back to the States and I was going to come visit him in two months.
And...
I asked him if he wanted to continue this, and he said yes.
So I assumed that he would Skype call me so we could continue talking about all this, but he just never did.
Not really.
It's like he disappeared.
When you say red pill guy, was he like a men's rights or MGTOW guy?
Not MGTOW, definitely not.
I read some of the stuff that he was really into, like, what do they call it?
Plate spinning.
I don't know what that is.
Well, if you can imagine, like, one of those people that can spin plates on a stick, you know?
Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
That's just girls instead.
So, basically, you have to...
Oh, he's like a player, is what we call it.
Okay.
Yeah.
Was there any clue about this?
Oh, yes.
Oh, yes.
Many, many, many, many, many.
That's why I feel ashamed about it.
And what were these hidden or mysterious clues or non-mysterious clues?
I don't even know where to start.
There were so many.
Come on!
Help out the brothers and sisters around the world who don't want to have their hearts broken in the same way.
No, you don't even want to hear it.
I do, I do, I do.
It started out...
I met him at the train station in Copenhagen like three years ago, I think.
And he was like, I was sitting there at the train station with my sister and he was just staring at me and I was like, oh, I'm going to go over there and say hi.
So I went over and said hi and invited him to my place with his friend.
Because they'd just been city hopping and everything.
So I was just like, oh, I'm just going to invite them over.
I did that.
I just enjoyed having people over.
And he was great looking.
So...
Like, come over.
But he wasn't standing with a hammer this time.
No hammer, but a very gorgeous big nose.
Yeah, so I invited him over and...
You know what they say about guys with big noses?
Really bad colds.
Anyway, go on.
What?
Okay.
Yeah, but I invited them over and we talked and I fell for him and he's like...
Then he went home after...
I think five days.
Yeah.
Ridiculous.
After five days he went home and I kind of knew that there was this girl like this ex-girlfriend but I didn't at the time I didn't pay any attention to it because like oh my ex-boyfriend is my best friend and now I know better but...
Do you mind if I ask you a question?
You don't have to answer anything.
Oh please do.
How long till you slept with him?
Oh, on the last day, just until I left, so five days.
So right before he left, you had sex with him?
Yes.
All right.
Go on.
Yeah.
Well, and he...
Because he's traveling.
Yeah.
And what could go wrong, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, well, and the worst thing was that I knew that it was fucking stupid, because I really liked him.
Like, we talked, we had great talks and everything.
Very superficial, now that I think back.
I should have asked him way more, but I didn't.
And he went home, and...
Wait, but why, sorry, so you said it was fucking stupid, but it was stupid fucking.
Why did you have sex with him, do you think?
I mean, obviously, you know, sex is fun and blah, blah, blah.
You're attracted to the guy.
But why do you think you had sex with him?
Because I wanted a connection.
I wanted to see him again.
So you had sex with him in the hopes that, to some degree, putting the hook in the water so he'll come back, right?
Yeah.
I really liked him.
I kind of knew that I shouldn't do that because I actually...
I actually really, really wanted to get to know him and that's why when he went back, I bought a plane ticket to go and see him after like three months or something like that.
Wait, sorry.
After he was gone for three months, you got a plane ticket to go and see him?
Yeah, I got a plane ticket to go and see him as soon as I could, but I was working so I couldn't do it right away.
But the thing with this girl was that it was some girl that he tried to...
It was his ex-girlfriend.
And he dated her for, I think, three months.
And then she moved to San Francisco.
And then she didn't want to have anything to do with him because there are a lot of guys.
And she was the kind of person that, after what he told me, this is nothing I know for sure, but that's what he told me, that...
She didn't know that she was attractive or she didn't think that much of herself.
And then she got there and she got all this attention and she didn't need him anymore.
And then he tried to win her back for, I think, two or three years.
Years?
Yes.
How long did they be going out?
I think three months or six months.
I don't remember, but very, very short.
Wow.
She was very, very, very good.
Was it long distance or were they traveling together?
He lived in LA and she lived in San Francisco.
Okay, so it was long distance-ish, right?
It's a couple hours apart, right?
So long distance, they went out for six months or so and he spent two to three years trying to get her back?
Yeah.
Pretty much.
Even though when she realized she had higher sexual market value than she thought, she dumped his ass and was sleeping around with other guys, I assume, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And she even asked him, like, if it is okay that she saw other guys, and he just said yes.
Which you're like...
So...
And I feel terrible about this story.
Like, I hate it.
I don't know...
Yeah, look, totally you should go see other guys.
I mean, I can't be expected to go around and pick up all these diseases by myself.
I need to help her!
Yeah.
Anyway, go on.
Exactly.
Well, so, but when she found out about me, you can imagine what happened.
Oh my god, she came back hard.
She was like, cry face, and oh, she has these gorgeous big eyes.
Like, she can look like a drowned puppy.
I have never seen anything like it.
Like, she can look like a drowned puppy.
Oh my god.
But when she knew about me, like...
How did she know about you?
He said, like, I slept with a girl?
Well, I think he used me as a game to get her back.
When he figured out that it affected her.
Because he was very convenient for her because he bought her a lot of things, drove her places, went to her festivals with her.
Kind of a servant, I guess.
Yeah, he was a professional mangina, right?
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
And he really liked me.
Like, we had some...
He wrote the cutest things ever in that period of time.
But then it was just like, I could hear...
On his words, which were not spoken, but it was written that all of a sudden it was just not the same.
Like, I could feel that something had happened.
Which meant she met someone else, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She wanted him back.
Oh yeah, so she wants him back, so you've served your purpose, so off you go from his attention, right?
And I don't think that it was his intention to do this, but I just think that it just occurred to him Unconsciously that that was what was happening and he just went along with it and used me for getting her back, which he didn't, by the way.
So she got him back simply to prove that she could.
Yeah.
And then once she got him back, she dumped him again.
She didn't even sleep with him.
She didn't even sleep with him.
She just wanted the control and get me out of the picture because I actually went there to see him for three weeks and It was the most terrible thing I've ever done to myself in my entire life, going there and seeing that.
And he was like, no, he had sex with me like the first three days.
And then he was like, oh, by the way, I'm not over that other person.
But you knew he wasn't over the other person.
I never asked him.
It was just a feeling.
Okay, but the fact that you didn't ask him, you were hoping to maybe that your vagina would crowd out her vagina and you'd get to keep the man in your vagina.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, got it.
Got it.
So that happened and that was not very nice.
So I went back and later I learned that he didn't get her back at all because she was just playing it.
And that was my first...
Interaction with Americans.
I know now that this happens a lot there.
That was very new to me.
Oh no, you got the a lot thing?
Let's jump back for a second here.
Let's jump back for a second.
I won't lose track, right?
16 to 24 year olds in Denmark.
What percentage of 16 to 24 year olds have taken cannabis during the last month, do you think?
I don't know.
Have a guess. 35?
35?
7.1.
Oh my god, is it really that low?
Wow.
It really is.
And it's actually down.
2008 was 8.1.
Now it's 7.1.
The highest was 2005, 8.2.
1994 was 3.7.
But yeah, 7%.
16 to 24 year olds who've taken cannabis during the past year.
Oh my god, this is so scary.
But this is what I really want to jolt you out of this underworld that you're in.
Yeah.
Oh my god.
Now, 38% have ever experimented with cannabis.
11% have tried drugs other than cannabis.
But no, like regular uses, like the kind that you are hanging out with, I'm not really hanging out with just acquaintances because I don't really see a lot of...
They're in your circle, right?
Yeah.
Half of young adults under the age of 35 in 2010 tried cannabis ever, 14% are current users.
In other words, 14% have used it in the last year.
I don't know if that's current or whatever, but it's only 7% in the last month.
Right, so this is the circles that, and these circles tend to like, nobody else is in them, right?
So everybody looks like a druggie because nobody else, like who the hell would want to go, what the hell would I do want to go hanging out with a bunch of stoned people?
It's like hanging out with drunk people.
No, it's like this is really insanely interesting actually.
This is, oh my god, I'm going to think so much about this.
Wow.
And now you're saying, well, this happens in America a lot.
Yeah.
I don't know that it does.
No, it's not the weed, but...
No, no, no, the sexual manipulation and, you know, sleeping with this person and pining for this person and trying to...
Oh, yeah, because that's...
It happens among crazy people, but I don't know that it happens as much as you think.
Yeah, that's just...
Okay, so stop going for the pretty boys.
Right?
Stop going for the pretty boys.
You're worth more than mere prettiness.
Right?
Stop going for the pretty boys.
You said you wanted to get to know who he was, but you only had him around because he was pretty.
Yeah, I guess so.
You know so.
Look, if he hadn't been That pretty.
And if the other guy hadn't been holding the hammer and looking all John Galtie or whatever, right, then you wouldn't have probably given them much of the time of the day, right?
Yeah.
And what did you say about your druggie friends or your druggie acquaintances?
Oh, very exciting.
They're all so pretty.
Yeah.
Okay, so take a break from the pretty people, particularly the evil, manipulative, lying, false, drug-addicted, video game-addicted pretty people, right?
Yeah.
Beauty ain't worth that much.
Beauty ain't going to help you to pull piglets out of a sow, right?
Yeah.
Oh yeah, definitely not.
Definitely not.
Oh my goodness.
Right?
I mean, they're not going to do you much good and pretty good boys aren't going to do much good when your baby is thrown up for the third time in the night or is just up or just whatever, right?
Yeah.
In fact, pretty people, let me tell you, let me tell you about pretty people.
Let me tell you about pretty people.
I was pretty myself as a young man.
But pretty people, they expect things to come to them like on this conveyor belt.
Yeah.
Right?
Oh, look, here's some more pussy.
Oh, look, here's some money.
Oh, look, here's some resources.
Oh, look, here's a job.
Oh, look, here's somebody else who wants me to come and stay at their beachfront villa in Maui, right?
Yeah.
Here's somebody else who wants to buy me a very expensive dinner.
Here's somebody else who wants to pay for my education.
Here's somebody else who wants to buy me a dress.
Here's somebody else who blah, blah, blah.
Stuff comes in a conveyor belt, right?
And they don't even have to put out for it.
I have never, ever received any of those things.
That was a principle of mine.
I don't want anybody to shit.
No, I get it.
But that's also because you're on the providing end, right?
Okay.
You're the chick in the UPS truck, not the guy at the door, right?
Yeah.
That's a great image.
So, pretty people and resources flow towards pretty people.
Experiment after experiment shows it.
Pretty people get resources.
They just flow to them.
It's just the way the biology works.
And so what happens is, when pretty people aren't receiving resources, They get bored, frustrated, and want to go to where they're getting resources.
Right?
It's like a hungry monkey.
If the kibble machine isn't working, they just go to another kibble machine.
Oh, here comes the kibble, right?
And I'm, you know, whether it's right or wrong, you know, what can I say?
It's just the way that it is.
Pretty people have resources fired at them all the time.
And the only way to keep the attention of a pretty person is to be somebody that the pretty person cannot get more resources from.
Right?
So Angelina Jolie, considered to be one of the most beautiful women, if not the most beautiful woman on the planet, she climbs up and up the hypergamy ladder until she gets to Brad Pitt and there's nowhere to climb to.
Yeah.
You can't go higher than Brad Pitt for a lot of people.
And so that's where she is.
And so most of us who aren't Brad Pitt are not going to be in a position to continue to give more and more resources to pretty people.
And pretty people, this is why they act so bored and this is why they act so impatient and this is why they're so easily frustrated and roll their eyes and so on.
It's because they're waiting for the resources.
What do you mean I got to go out and do it myself?
They're waiting for the resources.
This doesn't mean that pretty people can't be hard-working.
I mean, George Clooney's wife is a human rights lawyer and so on.
It doesn't mean that pretty people can't be hard-working and so on, but It is very hard, particularly with pretty people who aren't smart, right?
See, smart people look at their prettiness and say, eh, you know, I didn't earn it, so I'm not going to make it part of my self-esteem as much as I can.
And it's going to fade.
It's going to go away.
Pretty go bye-bye.
That's the story of life, right?
And so the problem is, the real combination is pretty and not smart.
That is doom in a bag, right?
It's like, if you inherit a lot of money and you're smart, you probably do pretty well.
If you inherit a lot of money and you're not smart, ooh, bad scene, right?
And so it's going to be short-term gratification the whole way.
And beauty is a kind of short-term gratification.
And, you know, pretty plus intelligent, fantastic, right?
Pretty plus dumb, ooh, right?
That is a complete train wreck.
And it's a train wreck in the short term, and it's like an airstrike in the long term.
Yeah.
So how smart were these pretty boys?
Well, the heroin guy, he...
I don't know.
I didn't really talk to him that much.
It was just like a replication of my mom and dad's relationship.
They never talked either.
So it's just like movies and...
I guess he was not very intelligent because he didn't talk that much, but neither did I. The other guy, he was very much like my dad.
Very, very much like my dad.
Because I've always seen intelligence as knowing a lot of things.
My dad, he reads a lot, he knows a lot of things, so I saw that as being really, really intelligent, but I don't think that so much anymore because you can learn to remember a lot of things, but the thought in the moment and really looking into things and looking into the mirror and really, really thinking about it, evaluating yourself all the time, I think that's more like intelligence now.
I thought that the other guy, he was really intelligent, but I see now that that's probably not the case.
Yeah, I mean, look, people can have...
Yeah, people can have some sort of raw processing power.
And maybe what I'm talking about is a little bit more wisdom than intelligence.
But what I would say is that intelligent people don't start dating a woman who just committed suicide, or sorry, just tried to commit suicide and say, let's have children!
Right?
And they don't chicken out when the When their wives are going on verbal tirades against their children, right?
My dad, he didn't even want kids.
Because they know that that's painful.
Like, he met my mom.
He's five years younger than her.
Right.
So, he was not even ready.
So...
Right.
Right.
Yeah, so that is...
That is what you need is you need a person of wisdom and depth and real intelligence, not like surface stuff, right?
But real intelligence about knowing what the costs and benefits are of life decisions, right?
And you need to wise up yourself too, right?
You don't throw...
Sex at a guy who's leaving in the hopes that it'll make him want to see you again.
Oh God, no, not anymore.
Right, okay.
So just so you know.
Oh God, I know.
I've thought so much about this.
Like I've analyzed the shit out of it.
Good, good.
And you don't chase a guy who's interested in another woman?
Nope.
Doesn't work, right?
For a start, you kind of ask, you should be kind of curious about things if he bought a bracelet for another girl when he was traveling.
That's kind of like a thing that you should ask about.
Well, not really, because there's nothing to ask about.
You know, if you want to hang with the guy and have walks or whatever, fine.
But if he's still pining for, oh, I bought this for a woman, it's like, okay, well, then go pursue her, right?
Yeah, I guess the action in itself is enough.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I don't go around buying bracelets for other women because I'm married.
Yeah.
Yeah, I get what you're saying.
I get what you're saying.
That's enough.
Yeah, I mean, you can ask or whatever, but there's nothing to find out.
Because if you're asking to find out something that's obvious, you're just asking to be manipulated, right?
You're asking for him to lie to you and tell you that what you already know is not true so that you can fool yourself, right?
Yeah.
I'm very, very, very proud of myself because after this guy, I went to another festival and There was this other guy, like, very, very hot guy.
And he was coming after me hard.
But I was just like, I'm just gonna sit down and wait a little bit because he talked a lot too.
And I was just like, I'm just gonna sit back and see what he's gonna do.
And he failed, like, an hour later.
So, it's very easy.
You just have to talk to people and be honest.
That's, like, the best thing to do.
Then they show themselves immediately.
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, when I was younger, even in a bar, I started chatting with a woman and asked her a couple of questions, be honest about myself, and you knew like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's very, very fast.
I was like, it blew my mind.
There's no efficiency like honesty in the good and the bad of what it will reveal.
It blew my mind.
It really, really did.
I was just like, oh my god, I just saved myself from hell again.
Oh my god, I'm so proud.
So I think I would say keep pursuing that and recognize that I'm going to assume that your parents are attractive.
Yeah, yeah, very, very, very.
Very attractive, right.
Yeah, of course, right.
I mean, I assume your mom is, you know, hot as Georgia Ashfalt.
She's got a great ass.
Okay, so your mom is very attractive, which is why it's like, okay, you did just recently commit suicide, but dead ass.
Yeah.
So you've inherited this tragically, and I'm sure maybe they inherited it from their parents, right?
I mean, these things tend to run in clusters.
Oh, yes.
But you've inherited this, you pretty, I'll overlook the crazy because you pretty, right?
And that, you know, you can overlook the crazy, but the crazy don't overlook you, right?
Oh, yeah.
The history of my family, man.
Like, everybody in my family is very attractive, like, very attractive.
I think almost all of them.
It's really amazing.
That's a known risk factor.
Look for depth and recognize that this druggy acquaintance Crowd slash cloud.
That's not the sum total of the people who are out there for you to have conversations with, and I would definitely start to move away from that.
You can't have connected, intimate conversations with people who are self-medicating.
I mean, you can't, because they're self-medicating.
I mean, they're not there.
The drug is there, but they're not there.
You can't have really great conversations with drunk people.
I mean, you just can't do it.
So, if that's your goal, then...
You know, you've got to pick your sober companions, right?
Oh, yeah.
Well, that's what your show taught me.
It's just like an epiphany all the time.
It's really awesome.
Will you keep us posted about how it's going?
I will.
Would you like us to forward any correspondence we get?
Oh, please do.
Please do.
Okay.
All right.
We hook you up, sister!
Nice philosophy brain.
Thank you so much.
All right.
Okay, well, I've got to...
End the show.
It's close to midnight here, but I really, really appreciate it as always, Katja.
It was great to chat with you, and I really appreciate you calling in.
How was the conversation for you?
Sorry, I forgot to ask that.
Oh, great, great, great.
Really, really good.
I was very, very nervous, but it's like...
It's not so bad, right?
No, no, no.
Your nice voice is just like calming me down.
Great.
Thank you.
All right, so thank you.
Keep us posted, and of course, we wish you all the love and luck, and...
Virtue and children in the world.
So have yourselves a wonderful, wonderful week, everyone.
Let's not forget.
Oh, I know.
Don't end.
Don't end.
There's a tiny bit more.
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You know the drill.
Come and help out the show.
Help us.
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