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May 2, 2015 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

04:02:15

2963 Coming Out of the Closet - Call In Show - April 29th, 2015

Question 1: I am a twenty-three year old, homosexual black American male, living in a religious family household. Do you have any advice or suggestions as how to be honest with my family about my sexuality? | Question 2: I’m currently an entrepreneur, but have the chance to take over the established family business. I don’t think I can do both, and am conflicted about my choice – can family and business mix? | Question 3: What do you think of making it normal and completely above the table, for husbands to visit young prostitutes once their wife’s aging starts to show? | Question 4: Ever since I was young, I have had an irrational fear that everyone else is cocky, mean, and won’t like me - why am I terrified of people before I get to know them?

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	Hi everybody, Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain Radio.
	Midweek madness, philosophy, half price.
	So, I hope you're doing well.
	We have a bunch of callers on tonight with some very, very interesting topics.
	I hope that you will stay tuned for the entire conversation.
	Mike, who's on the first list?
	Alright, up first is Matthew.
	Matthew wrote in and said, I'm a 23-year-old homosexual black American male living in a religious family household.
	Do you have any advice or suggestions as to how to be honest with my family about my sexuality?
	Hello, Matthew.
	Hi, can you hear me?
	I can hear you.
	I can hear you.
	How are you doing?
	I'm pretty nervous right now.
	I bet.
	Yeah, I'm pretty nervous.
	I feel fine, all things considered.
	Right.
	Do you have more that you want to add to that?
	I mean, I'm happy to ask questions, whatever you think would be most helpful.
	The only thing that I would add is, as you can probably tell, it's a pretty complicated situation.
	And I'm not just doing this for my sake, but for my little sister as well, who will be going off to college soon.
	So, this is a big Big thing that, you know, I'm trying to do.
	Other than that, fire away.
	When you say that you're doing it for a little sister too, can you just help me understand what that means?
	Well, the core of everything, the core of my question is, you know, the religious kind of upbringing that we've had.
	It's really quite oppressive, and I've had a pretty rough Few years ever since well ever since I got out of high school and I just Don't want you know, I want to hopefully your suggestions with my situations will help in her situation as well so right and Is there more again?
	Is there more you want to add?
	I don't want to jump in if you've got more to say no, I'm pretty much ready I Now, were you...
	I mean...
	When did you first sort of figure out that you were gay?
	Around kindergarten, first grade.
	That was within, you know, my family and stuff.
	Everybody was saying, this is, you know...
	Oh, this girl or whatever has a crush on you or whatever.
	But, like, I really, really, really liked...
	A few boys, you know that were like in my class then I realized that I Didn't like think about it.
	It's kind of realized that the attraction that I'm supposed to have like for girls I'm like having for guys so I didn't know there was like a gay term back then but like Yeah, that's pretty much what I when I knew for sure right and You know this and I know this, but just for other people, this idea that homosexuality is some sort of choice.
	I mean, and Matthew, correct me where I'm wrong.
	You're certainly more of an expert.
	But to me, it seems like there are people who are born straight.
	There are people who are born gay.
	Maybe there's sort of a continuum.
	There's some people in the middle where there's maybe more of a choice.
	But, I mean, you didn't sit there and say, well, let me flip a coin here, you know?
	Yeah.
	I can go the easy route of being attracted to girls or the really challenging route of being attracted to guys, but I'm just a masochist, so I'm going to choose this really challenging route.
	It's just, it's the way you are.
	It's the way you are as long as you can remember, pretty much, or at least once those attraction things came into play.
	I don't want to tell you your experience, but, I mean, I didn't sort of sit there and say, well, I could be attracted to guys or I could be attracted to girls.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	You know, I mean, it's just the way your body moves, so to speak, right?
	Yeah, that's exactly right.
	And I would say, you know, I tried, you know, to, you know, fight girls and date girls, but it was so damaging and so bad and so, like, traumatizing.
	You know, yeah, I just couldn't, I can't do it, you know.
	It's a common misconception, especially in the black church these days.
	Right, like if you just will it.
	You know, like if we show you enough tits, somehow, you know, they're going to just like, using these gay-destroying lasers coming out of the nipples, they're just going to carve you right up and turn you straight into tit-loving guy, right?
	I mean, that's just not the thing.
	You can show me as many ripped male abs as you want, and all I want to do is go do some sit-ups.
	I will not get sexually turned on.
	I mean, it's just the way it works.
	And I just really want to extend...
	That knowledge to people.
	I did a show years ago about the biological basis of homosexuality, which I have not seen any information to discount.
	So I just want to make sure at least that we're starting on the right same page of understanding.
	It's the way your body moves.
	It's the way your loins point.
	And you can't will it one way or the other, right?
	Yeah, that's exactly right.
	Thanks for that because I don't hear that too often these days.
	Thanks a lot.
	No, and this is what's so bloody annoying about some of the anti-homosexuality sentiment, and we'll get into that in a sec, but it's like taking, like it's me saying like, I'm a great guy because I'm white, or you're a great guy because you're black.
	It's like, I didn't choose that.
	It just popped out with these genes.
	You didn't choose that.
	This idea that somehow being straight is morally superior to being gay because we made better choices or we focused on tits rather than hairy asses I mean it's just it's really annoying and I'm just sorry that you live in a world where that is where that is the way things go yeah yeah it's pretty tough all right can I start just with something that hopefully will give my sense of
	where your parents may be coming from not not saying that it's right but just sort of where where they're coming from Yeah, sure.
	So, this is not a philosophical argument.
	I think it's true, which is a crappy thing to say in a philosophy show, but I'll share it with you and see if it makes any sense to you.
	Okay.
	So, in the religious worldview, God doesn't make mistakes.
	Okay.
	Now, and I'm not trying to say that you're any kind of mistake or anything, but in the religious worldview, you're supposed to be straight, right?
	I mean, and God makes men and women, right?
	You know, that old annoying thing that people say, like, it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
	Yeah, I grew up with that, yeah.
	Yeah, and like, how well did Adam and Eve work out?
	I mean, she shows him the shiny apple, they eat the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God curses them out, throws them out, flaming sword, end of paradise.
	It's like, yeah, let's have that.
	At least with Adam and Steve, there'd be...
	Finger foods and nice decor, anyway.
	So, from the religious worldview, God doesn't make mistakes and human beings are here to procreate.
	Therefore, feelings of Male to male sexual attraction must be your cross to bear, your sin to overcome.
	Like, it can't be.
	Now, to me, it seems perfectly valid that there would be a male to male attraction in a man.
	A male-to-female attraction in a man, a female-to-female attraction in a woman, and a female-to-male attraction in a woman as well.
	Nature is a tinkerer, and I don't see any reason why that doesn't happen.
	And of course, we know statistically around the world and across the animal kingdom, it happens.
	I think one of the challenges of homosexuality is, for the religious person, it's kind of a reminder of nature, the evolutionary tinkerer, if that makes sense.
	And I think that's really tough because this shows the experimentation and the alternate paths that nature can take.
	And I think that's really tough when you look at the sort of divine, gotta get it right, doesn't make mistakes, the divine organizer of life itself.
	I think homosexuality is a challenge to that model.
	Does this make any sense?
	Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
	I've seen that kind of First hand as well.
	It's in the church nation worldwide or everything, but it is especially prevalent in the black church.
	I understand that completely.
	Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to tell you anything you don't know about black culture, but it seems to me, I don't know if I'm going out on too much of a limb here, Matthew, but it seems to me there seems to be an additional sprinkle of macho in the black culture.
	And I don't mean like village people macho man.
	I don't mean like Freddie Mercury mustache macho.
	I mean like lift cement with your bare hands macho kind of stuff.
	Yeah, that's about it.
	Yeah, that's...
	Disturbing, really, to me.
	But yeah, it's there.
	It doesn't go away, either.
	It's very strange.
	Like, I've met white guys who seem gay but aren't.
	Right.
	Right?
	Because, like, in the white culture, you can...
	You can be like me or something.
	I don't know how many people have thought I'm gay over the years.
	I don't know.
	But you can be flamboyant.
	You can be into, like, all the clichés, right, which, you know, are not necessarily true.
	You can be into ABBA. You can enjoy very sinuous dance styles.
	And then you can go home with a woman and people are like, oh, well, that's fine.
	But I don't know that I've ever seen or met a black guy who seems gay but isn't.
	Right.
	That would be exactly right.
	It's, yeah.
	Alright.
	Okay, and again, I just want to make sure we're sort of on the same page when we start.
	So you have an additional challenge, of course, you know, being a minority within a minority.
	I'm not sure what your religious views are at the moment.
	I may have a guess if you listen to this show, but where do you stand for that?
	Yeah, I have none at this point.
	You're an atheist?
	Yep.
	Excellent!
	So there's only one of you now.
	I'm sorry, you've become such a minority, you've become an atom.
	No, of course not.
	But they're not exactly a dime a dozen, right?
	Right, yeah, very rare.
	Okay, okay.
	And...
	So...
	Do you know if your sister is straight?
	Is that an issue at all?
	She's...
	Probably not.
	She's talked about like maybe bi or something, but she hasn't been very clear on that.
	She's pretty young too, and so I don't know.
	But yeah, I don't think it's straight at this point because she's talked about, you know, like, yeah, I was about to date this girl and this, that, you know.
	So I don't really press that issue though.
	Now, I don't know much about Black community's relationship to lesbianism would be, or even bi, I mean, is it as bad?
	Because it doesn't seem to trigger quite as much of the macho reaction as the gay black men.
	Yeah, in the black community, they love bisexual girls.
	They love them.
	I mean, they vilify them.
	You hear them in every other hip-hop song.
	It's actually quite a trend these days.
	Yeah, bisexuality, lesbianism, and black women aren't nearly as looked down upon in fact.
	I see it quite a lot these days.
	But the homosexuality is, I mean, you could die over that, you know, in the wrong place, you know.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Why is lesbian, black lesbian, is that just because it's a turn-on to some guys?
	Is it like the Joey Tribbiani factor?
	Yeah, pretty much, yeah.
	Yeah, just by the by, honestly, lesbian, sexual acts, I've never got why that's exciting.
	To me, that's like being really hungry and watching two people eat food when you don't get any.
	It just seems kind of weird.
	But anyway, so there is a sort of like, it's sexy, right, to be barred by lesbians.
	Not quite as, right, okay.
	How have you managed to...
	Get to where you are, Matthew, without your parents knowing.
	Well, it's a very strange story.
	Really, I'll try to keep it short, but most of the time...
	No, no, listen, you don't have to keep it short.
	This is a show that can go on as long as you want, and I suspect this is not a story you've told a lot, so feel free to go as long as you want.
	Okay, okay.
	Well, basically, the It was like, mostly in secret, you know, if I had like a relationship, you know, with the guy, I would, you know, I don't look, you know, like too bad.
	So like in the beginning of high school, I used to get, you know...
	I'm sorry, sorry to interrupt.
	When you say you don't look so bad, is that by gay man standards?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	Okay, so basically you're like a goddess.
	You're like a god of sexiness for a heterosexual man But by gay standards, because, I mean, gay men are kind of body conscious a lot of times and kind of self-critical.
	So you're a fantastic-looking guy, but in the gay scale, it's different.
	It's more logarithmic, right?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So you're a great-looking guy, but go on.
	Yeah.
	In high school, I used to get girlfriend covers, and then I'd tell them that I was interested in guys, and then I would say to my parents, hey, here's...
	Picture of my girlfriend or whatever, and then, like, I'd have, like, a relationship with, you know, a guy.
	So that's how that dance worked out, you know, throughout high school.
	But then the strange thing that happened was I started, you know, I was really, I've dealt with, like, really bad depression.
	I've had, like, cutting problems.
	I've had, you know, all my life.
	And I would, I decided that I needed to make some type of I kind of like being honest with people and I don't like lying to people.
	I realized that I couldn't play this game anymore.
	After high school, I went to this place called Kaleidoscope.
	It's for gay youth or whatever.
	And that's where they would, you know, talk and, you know, see other, you know, bisexual gay people and stuff.
	And we just talk about our days, you know, the highlights and the lowlights and stuff.
	And it was really helpful.
	And then I actually summed up the gumption, you know, to, you know, maybe, you know, at that point, come out to my parents.
	Now, meanwhile, at home, I'm actually in the very same basement again that happened.
	My relationship with my father, he had just divorced my mother, and I was living with my grandma, of whom I'm taking care of right now.
	I didn't outwardly show anything, but I don't know if it's an age thing, because they're kind of doing the same thing to my sister, but they just stop liking you.
	You behave as if you're an enemy or whatnot.
	I wasn't Giving them, I guess, my father specifically, due attention.
	Sorry to interrupt, Matthew.
	Did you come out to your parents at this point, or is that still to come?
	Yeah, I actually went to my mom's house after I had a big fight with my dad and told her that I was gay, right?
	Right.
	Yeah, they didn't go...
	I mean, as far as coming out stories go, I don't...
	I can't imagine it going any worse.
	It was...
	I regretted it very soon after.
	Because the stuff that happened...
	Do you mind saying what...
	I mean, I have this...
	It probably is a cliche, and I apologize for that.
	But I sort of have this image of...
	Sometimes black women can be perceived as being slightly over-emotional.
	Oh, yeah.
	So that's my mom all day long.
	Okay, all right.
	Yeah, all day long.
	But yeah...
	So I said it and I burst into tears.
	And I actually just remembered this last night.
	I haven't thought about it in years.
	But like, she was, yeah, she just flat out didn't accept it.
	You know, just, no.
	Wait, wait, hang on.
	What does that mean she doesn't?
	Like, does she think that you're mistaken or you're lying?
	Or like you'll grow out of it?
	Because it's been since kindergarten to 20, but perhaps you'll grow out of it.
	Yeah, she was more or less like making a huge mistake and it was reprehensible morally.
	So I was wrong and I'll grow out of it and I'm just being crazy and dramatic.
	That's been a running theme with me with my parents.
	That they consider you dramatic?
	Yeah, dramatic, lazy, selfish, all that.
	Everything, really.
	Negative.
	I'm I just I'm really really sorry about that I mean to me I mean Difficult enough, you know being a black guy in America difficult enough being a gay black guy an atheist gay black guy I mean wouldn't it be great to have your family in your corner as a soft landing space landing space in a world that Is is a challenge from that perspective, right?
	Yeah, yeah, so yeah, it was I think one of the most traumatic experiences of my life But the crazy thing is, is after that all happened, my dad wanted to, was playing it kind of politically correct, but you know...
	Wait, wait, but how did your dad, did your mom tell him?
	What did you tell him?
	My mom called him, and that was, we actually had that fight the same night, and I had actually packed up my stuff to try to move over to my mom's house, because I was just kind of tired of this place.
	And yeah, she ended up calling him, and They do the whole double team thing.
	Wait, I don't know what that means.
	What, the double team?
	Well, I mean, they both sort of ganged up on that negative perspective.
	Yep.
	And so after that, ever since then, they've never mentioned anything about it at all.
	Oh God, this like it never happened stuff is so weird to me.
	Yeah, and that was the most damaging because I was at that point already alienated from my family.
	Most of my friends had already moved away or done other things, so I was actually completely alone.
	So in a strange way, I actually ended up going back into the closet.
	I got another girlfriend cover, and she actually turned out to be extremely destructive, and my life has really gone down the tubes because of that.
	Okay, so when you say you got a beard or you got a girlfriend cover, was that a non-romantic relationship or were you doing more romantic stuff with her, sort of grit your teeth kind of stuff?
	Yeah, gritting my teeth and kind of doing that.
	Maybe it'll take.
	Was it a cover or were you maybe thinking that?
	I was at that point in my head.
	I was like, look, I was still under the impression that maybe I could force myself to...
	I guess like a woman in any sort of way.
	But yeah, it wasn't...
	No, it didn't work out.
	Then she ended up finding out that I was gay and ended up burning all my stuff.
	Did you say she burnt all your stuff?
	Yeah.
	Why?
	Did she feel it was contagious?
	Pretty much, yeah.
	over time she actually became extremely homophobic and um it was like i was still having you know because it was started out like a regular beard you know right you I was like, yeah, I'm actually into guys, but hey, we're kind of cool, so let's be great friends and do your thing, I do my thing, whatever.
	But then she started getting quite violent.
	I don't know what was wrong with her, but she started getting quite violent because then I actually fell in love with a guy I'm sorry to interrupt, Matthew, but when you were dating, pseudo-dating this girl, did she believe...
	Oh, I guess she didn't know, right?
	But at some point, did she believe that you could sort of will a change, or did she take it personally?
	Like, what am I not attractive enough to turn you straight?
	It's like, Brad Pitt is a great-looking guy.
	Still don't want to kiss him.
	Yeah, it was pretty much that.
	I'm not pretty enough to turn me straight.
	Since the beginning, she's always known.
	I was actually really quite upfront.
	But little did I know that she was running a campaign to sort of turn me straight.
	And I just...
	I'm sorry to interrupt again.
	Because there's people out there...
	I mean, I don't think a lot of people who listen to the show have these issues, but...
	It's not that hard to figure out what it's like to be a gay person.
	You just have to think about living in a society where you have to marry men and where if you're found kissing a girl, you could get beaten up, you could get mocked, you could get ostracized.
	And just imagine living in that world.
	And, you know, I... Gay people is like, particularly in subcultures, I'm not saying, you know, downtown San Francisco or, you know, Young and Charles in Toronto.
	But what I'm saying is that it's like Romeo and Juliet has always struck me as A story of gay love, because, you know, they have these families that are heavily opposed, and if they're found together, there's going to be such violence and so on.
	You know, Shakespeare was in the theater world.
	He might have experimented, or he might have known some people who were gay.
	I'm sure they were.
	I mean, it was boys who dressed as women, and the women weren't allowed on stage.
	So I'm sure that the most convincing Lady Macbeth was a young man who was gay.
	I mean, that would seem to me likely.
	So...
	Just think of that, thinking of living in a world where you have to kiss some stubbly guy, and you have to hold his hands, and you have to neck with him, and if you even look at a woman and anybody suspects that you find her sexually attractive, you could be in a world of hurt.
	That is a very scary and alarming world to live in, and it's a world where you have to self-monitor all the time, and you have to pretend to be something...
	Sexual identity is very foundational to our existence and somebody who says to a gay man, don't be gay, is really attacking the core foundation of identity.
	It's not all that you are, like I get that, but it's core to who we are.
	And what Simone de Beauvoir said in The Second Sex, she said, the first thing I had to talk about when I thought, who am I? I'm a woman.
	Her sexual, her gender identity, her sexual identity was the first thing that she talked about.
	So, you know, I could say, ah, I'm a philosopher.
	Okay, yeah, okay.
	But, you know, sexual identity, man, you know, sexually attracted to women, that's foundational.
	And we see this when, you know, I'm not saying, of course, that transgender is the same as homosexual, I get that.
	But if we look at someone like Bruce Jenner, the fact that he wants to live his life as a woman is fascinating to people.
	Why?
	I don't know.
	I think it's, I mean, it should be tragic that he had to wait until he was, what, 60?
	Yeah.
	To be able to express this?
	I mean, so he wants to put on dresses.
	God Almighty, stop the presses.
	End the world.
	I mean, he wants to wear dresses.
	He's comfortable doing that.
	He is, biologically, he says in his brain, he feels like a woman.
	And why this is a big deal?
	I mean, Lord, I mean, Robert Kardashian was great friends with Simpson, O.J. Simpson.
	I mean, it's a little more traumatic than his daddy likes to wear a dress.
	Anyway, that's a rant for another time.
	But I just, I want people to sort of, it's hard to get.
	It's hard to get.
	But it's really important for people to get that your sexual desire is a source of danger in your community, within your family.
	And it's really hard for people to understand that What that's like.
	But I think we can all put ourselves into that mindset easier than we think.
	So, sorry.
	I mean, that wasn't directed to you.
	I just really want people to get this.
	I had a friend who was coming out when I was younger, and it was a very difficult process.
	And...
	He was extremely concerned with his family and his friends.
	Will people like me?
	Will they look at me in the same way?
	How are people going to react?
	How many of my straight friends, when I say I've never been attracted to you, are going to be offended?
	No, I'm just kidding.
	No, and so I'm really, really sorry about all of this, and I'm sorry that you live in a world that has been so influenced by religion.
	That this has to be a source of contention.
	Like, I can go out and not be an anarchist or an atheist, because it's not like I have to do that 24-7 or anything like that.
	But sexual identity, sexual attraction is, you know, particularly your age, is a foundational heartbeat of your very existence.
	And the fact that the world, your world in particular, Matthew, is set against that, Is appalling to me, and I'm really, really sorry.
	You know, we're doing what we can to shake up the foundations of people's belief systems through this show.
	And of course, there's lots of other people who've been doing great work for a long time in this area.
	But I am really, really sorry.
	And I'm incredibly sorry.
	That it has been so stressful, you say, to the point of cutting, to the point of depression, to the point of struggling to get this crazy beard stuck on your face.
	I mean, it is really, really appalling.
	And I just want to put my heart out about that.
	That is really tragic.
	But I'm glad at least we can have this conversation.
	Yeah, me too.
	It's like the words that you're saying are so true.
	As far as sexuality being the foundation of my being, I was wondering, you know, why I'm so tired all the time.
	It's like, well, I'm playing like three different roles like every day.
	It's exhausting.
	Yes, it is very exhausting.
	It's exhausting.
	And the reason, if I could just say that what really struck me a few days ago, my dad's family was over here and The reason why I decided to,
	I had to, you know, reach out was they apparently, I guess some church or whatever, some black church, they came out and said, you know, they have like a gay pastor and they have like a first gentleman or whatever.
	And they went on like a 15 minute, like, what was it, like four people, you know, just forum on how much they hate gays.
	My grandma was doing the whole thing.
	Sodom and Gomorrah nuked them kind of thing.
	You know, the other people were just laughing at them and calling them, you know, feminine, you know, the girls and how that's not right.
	That's not natural.
	And I was forced to be up there that particular day.
	But it was just one of the like, these people have like, no idea how much they just hurt a person.
	And, you know, God, I mean, I mean, if one of them would would drag to a KKK rally, You know, where the racist assholes were saying, oh, you know, we should take blacks and burn them and it's evil and it's sinful.
	I mean, they would be appalled, and rightly so.
	Yeah.
	And then this kind of, you know, I would submit, you know, I mean, don't let me tell you a thing about your experience, but I would submit, Michael, that your homosexuality is more core to your identity than being black.
	Yeah, that's true.
	I mean, I'd love to live in a world where I haven't thought, oh, you're black, other than how it might be in terms of cultural, Matthew.
	I mean, sorry, Matthew.
	But I'm getting all of the New Testament people all confused.
	I apologize for that.
	Don't let me call you revelations.
	But...
	Sexual identity is something that is more foundational than race, because I'd love to live in a world where race wasn't foundation at all to identity, and I'm sure we'd all like that.
	But there's no, you know, we can all lower consciousness of race and deal with each other as individuals, but we can't lower consciousness of sexual identity, neither should we, if that makes sense.
	Yes, that makes sense, yes.
	Okay.
	So, when did this appalling thing where...
	It's unnatural and sinful and bad and Sodom and Gomorrah and all that kind of stuff.
	When did that go down?
	Well, that was a few weeks ago, but I've actually lived with that kind of rhetoric all my life.
	Like, as long as I can remember, like, three years old.
	I've always heard that.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, it's kind of like this kind of Anne Frank situation.
	Yeah.
	You know, like she's just hiding in an attic and hoping she's not found because, you know, there's incredibly negative and destructive forces in the environment.
	Yeah, it's, I do, and I've actually thought about that because, like, these days, you know, for the last few months, I've just become more sheltered and sheltered and sheltered and I, like, all of a sudden I hate going outside and I'm scared of everything.
	And it's like, Maybe, you know, that's because, like, I always feel if I'm, you know, found out at all, you know, the reaction, if it's not controlled, is very dangerous.
	You know, I mean...
	Now, tell me more about that, if you can.
	What about me being...
	About the...
	If you're found out.
	Because, I mean, you kind of came out...
	Well, you didn't kind of...
	You came out to your parents, and then they basically shrieked and...
	Put it back in the box, right?
	And now it's...
	Then you had the beard.
	How long did that last?
	That lasted...
	Oh, that whole process?
	That lasted like two or three years.
	I was moving around a lot.
	Oh, man.
	That was...
	You picked a very...
	To say this, you picked a very...
	Bad woman to try and go straight with.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, that's not funny.
	Yeah.
	You said she was like crazy, setting fire to your stuff and all that.
	It's like there are lots of nicer women out there, you know?
	Yeah.
	It's like me trying to turn gay with an obese, heavily farty trucker or something, you know?
	Yeah.
	Anyway.
	Yeah, she actually was pretty fat too, which is kind of just funny.
	Oh, right.
	I know.
	That lasted for two years.
	The whole thing was a very angry, violent person.
	I was working jobs.
	I managed to do good at one company as a marketer.
	I was always broke.
	I was moving from place to place.
	I started getting Very angry.
	I, you know, I was drinking more, you know, and smoking a lot of pot and stuff is like some sort of self-medication.
	And, you know, I ended up losing the place, everything.
	Ended up moving back at my mom's house.
	I got kicked out of there again.
	I ended up at my grandma, my other...
	Did you get kicked out because of just general conflicts, or did the homosexuality come up again?
	Well, my mom had a boyfriend at that time, and I didn't have a job, and I was really kind of depressed and confused and stuff.
	And so, yeah, just general conflicts.
	You know, the argument me and my mom had that night was like a decade in the making, really.
	And so I was kicked out the next day.
	I'm sorry to interrupt again.
	Was the argument, did it touch on homosexuality or was it other stuff?
	I mean, you've got an adverse childhood experience score of seven, which is pretty brutal, of course, right?
	Was it more to do with like general family history stuff and your history with her and with your dad?
	Yeah, that was what that was about.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And now you had the Conflict, and I'm not conflict-diverse, obviously.
	I mean, that's part of the gig, right?
	But I am conflict-diverse if it doesn't go anywhere.
	You know, because there's a difference between surgery and stabbing, right?
	You know, yeah, cut me open if you can do something useful, but don't just stab me, right?
	Right.
	Did it get anywhere, having these conflicts?
	No, I don't speak to her.
	I kind of actually try to avoid her after that.
	Yeah, that went...
	That was more like, yeah, stabbing.
	Violent stabbing.
	And how do things stand with your dad?
	I'm living with him right now, and that's who I mostly cover for, apparently.
	Because this is like the only place I have, unless the streets.
	So I have to be like really nice to him.
	Right, right.
	You're kind of cornered here, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I have to.
	That is my role.
	Play the good son.
	And just before we get into the next topic, can you, just to rewind a little bit, Matthew, can you take me to church?
	I mean, what is going on in the church that you grew up in, in particular with, I mean, does homosexuality come up a lot?
	I mean, remember, people were shocked out in California when the black community voted against, I think it was Prop 8 or gay marriage or something like that.
	And it's like, really?
	Shocked?
	Come on!
	I mean, have you never heard about this?
	Yeah, it's quite prevalent.
	Grandma was talking about that earlier today.
	I mean, it's a very common topic.
	They seem to hammer away at that issue a lot, especially because my generation in the black church, there's a lot of different kinds of sexualities.
	There's a lot of gays coming out, a lot of bi's and stuff.
	So the black church specifically, the house I'm living under, They're kind of at a war with that at this point.
	So it was less so, actually, when I was a little kid.
	Now it's more so.
	Now their particular rhetoric against homosexuality of actually any kind, really.
	So my grandma is actually kind of in more of an extreme fundamentalist camp in anything, but yeah.
	And I'm just going to point it out because you've obviously mulled over this irony from here to eternity, but just for other people whose brains are screaming this, yes, it is horrifying that black people persecute minorities.
	Of course, horrifying when anyone persecutes minorities.
	But you'd think, right, the suffering of blacks in slavery and Jim Crow and all, you'd think, but, you know, it's just one of these grim cycles.
	Yes, it is, yeah.
	They are very judgmental and violent.
	It's, yeah, it's pretty bad.
	And there's a blowback, right?
	There's this, you know, the psycho historians call it, this is growth anxiety, right?
	So there's this backlash.
	So if there is some loosening of anti-homophobic, sorry, anti-homophobic, that would not be bad.
	If there's some loosening of homophobic tendencies in the black community and an opening to more of an inclusion of Everybody like, yay, you know, we're more inclusive, but there's this backlash, right, among people who want to move it back in time and who view that as a challenge that must be overcome through increased aggression.
	Yes, yes, and we are very aggressive people, apparently.
	Right, right.
	So, yeah, I mean, holy crap.
	You know, if there was a God, I'd be pissed off at the number of tests he was giving you, Matthew.
	I just, you know, we would do a giant fuck you in the sky prayer right about now.
	Like, come on!
	I mean, that's, you know, there's one thing, a straw that breaks a camel's back, but don't drop a goddamn World War I battle cruiser on a camel and say, good luck running!
	Not that, you know, obviously you can survive, but I mean, that's the kind of stuff where I can't be religious because I'd get too fucking angry.
	Yeah.
	That's, yeah.
	I can't even think about it.
	There's just no way that you could have that many crosses.
	It's like, they're not fair.
	Come on!
	Yeah.
	You know, hey, let's all start in this race called life.
	You get a jetpack, you get an anvil.
	It's like, you're a dick.
	Whoever's doing that.
	So, I am...
	That's why, to me, I veer clear of religion for intellectual, philosophical reasons, moral reasons, but also just because I find it so enraging to think that this is...
	How things could be if there's some all-knowing, all-divine, all-perfect, fair God out there.
	It's just not right.
	It's some kind of disease.
	Do you, just out of curiosity, do you date in your race or out of your race?
	Does it matter?
	It doesn't really matter to me.
	I'm not dating right now, but it doesn't really matter.
	I've had white boyfriends, black boyfriends mixed, so yeah, it doesn't really matter.
	I hear there's an Asian homosexual somewhere, too.
	But I think he's booked up.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	Because, I mean, in the Asian community, there's challenges that way as well, right?
	Sure.
	I mean, in every community, but there's somewhere it spikes a little bit more.
	So, is there something else that you want to add in this before we dive into the next part?
	No, I think that's pretty good background.
	Okay, okay.
	All right.
	So, obviously, you know, massive sympathies and all of that.
	I think I've said that.
	And, you know, the challenge now is the next thing, right?
	Yes.
	What would be your ideal scenario?
	My ideal scenario?
	I've actually asked my question that for about a week now.
	And the strange thing is...
	It's really hard to figure out what I even, you know, like what would be within my actual self-interest, you know?
	I just want them, look, I understand that they have this, you know, religion that they live by.
	I just want them to, I don't know, I don't know, love their son for who he is and stop judging They're children.
	Especially so harshly, right?
	Yeah, because I'm really kind of messed up after all of this.
	I have my road to go through, but I don't want my little sister to go through that.
	She's been through enough.
	Honestly, I'm 23 right now.
	They had their chance as far as strong bonding relationship and stuff.
	But once I'm gone, I'm gone.
	But my sister has a lot of stuff to go through.
	I don't want her to judge her and treat her that way.
	And I want them to at least give me a heartfelt kind of apology for what I've been through and going through and what now I have to do by myself because of my upbringing.
	Right.
	Right.
	So that's ideal with regards to the past, to some degree, right?
	To apologize for past behaviors and commit, obviously, to something different, right?
	I mean, honestly, Matthew, you sound like a great guy.
	You know, I mean, like, seriously, I mean, what parent would be like, you know, he's just not articulate enough.
	It's like, no, you know, you're a strong guy, great guy.
	Well, thanks a lot.
	No, I mean, gosh, you know, you're not shooting up any malls, you know, and that's good, right?
	I mean, because you've been through a lot, and you're a great guy, and I think it's a tragedy, you know, what they're missing out on, right?
	Yeah.
	Now, the odds of you getting what you want from your parents with regards to past behavior...
	What kind of odds would you give that?
	Not very good.
	Like, nil, really.
	The ignorance is so hard to penetrate.
	I'd have to...
	I say it's going to be hard.
	The odds are not very good at all.
	Because, you know, when I was younger, although I was a lot more out with it, You know, as far as disagreements I've had with them, it seems like they're almost allergic to honesty, you know?
	So I don't know.
	It's going to take a lot of work, really, as far as I see.
	Right.
	And it's hard to see our parents in this kind of light.
	And again, it's your family, so don't let me tell you anything, but I do get the feeling that if your parents were to wake up one day and say, you know, we've got this great son, so he's gay, that's a challenge for us, but, you know, we have to find it in our hearts to love and blah, blah, blah.
	You know, if they've listened to some of the parts of Christianity that some Christians don't seem to be that keen on listening to, you know, the sort of love...
	Love your neighbor as yourself and that kind of stuff, right?
	Love, you know, maybe hate the sin, love the sinner.
	They don't seem to be getting that part down too well.
	But if they did wake up that way and they would then have to say, you shouldn't have to hide your sexual identity from us and you should not have to hide your sexual identity from your family.
	We stand with you.
	We support you and so on.
	What would that do to all of their relationships, do you think?
	Yeah, it wouldn't go too well.
	Especially, I think Dad has the most to lose, because Mom doesn't really talk to much of anybody.
	Yeah, Dad would, yeah.
	Because he goes to a church, I mean, he puts on that face.
	It's really strange, really.
	But yeah, he'd lose a lot, as far as his social circle went.
	And if people, of course, in certain religious traditions view homosexuality as immoral, then they would judge your parents as having done something very wrong, right?
	Having raised you badly, having raised you wrong?
	Yeah, I think, I believe so, yeah.
	And if they then got behind what other people would consider your sin, I hate even saying this stuff, just, you know, but if other people, if they got behind and supported you, It would be like, man, couldn't you just be a Satanist?
	Because at least Satanists can screw women, right?
	Because they would be getting behind what would be called a sin.
	Yeah, that would be their ideology.
	That's how it would pan out.
	So they would...
	Probably, I mean, it would be more than they'd go down a couple of notches in the social scale.
	Wouldn't they be ostracized?
	Quite possibly, yes.
	Because their commitment to you, their acceptance of who you are, would have to ripple out into the community and they'd have to change the minds of...
	Your grandmother and other people in the congregation and so on, right?
	Friends, extended family, they would have to, like, this would have to ripple outwards in order for this not to be a huge bone of contention, right?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	It's never about changing individuals.
	I made this mistake for so many years.
	I'm just going to change this person's mind.
	And sometimes I would change one person's mind and then everyone around them We'd get to work on them.
	Hey!
	I smell someone thinking for themselves.
	Zombie town, right?
	Zombie town with a banquet of fresh, spanking, thinking brains.
	And so you never change the minds of an individual because you're always changing the mind of an extended tribe.
	And this is as true for your community as any other community.
	And it's never...
	An individual whose mind you're going to change.
	It's all dominoes, if that makes sense.
	Yes, it does.
	And I will tell you my thoughts about change in people.
	Change is really, really hard, even if, I think it's only possible, but even if Your parents wake up tomorrow and say, gosh, we've been wrong.
	We've been primitive and superstitious and homophobic and, you know, our lovely son has not opened his heart to us and he's gone into dangerous and difficult situations and he's depressed and, you know, he's under-functioning and, you know, like we've really hurt him and it's wrong what we've done.
	That would be a huge enough change.
	I have never in my life, it's just my life, but I have a perspective from this show as well, but I've never in my life Matthew's seen someone who changes against what they define as the good, right?
	So even if they were to change their definition of the good and say, well, it was wrong for us to be homophobic and now we're going to be gay positive, particularly because our son is gay and we love him, right?
	So if they changed their minds about their values and inverted their values around sexual identity, Then change would be hard enough.
	But I think that people...
	And I've never seen anyone change against their values of morality.
	So I just tell you, I don't hold out any hope for someone, let's say, becoming a libertarian if they say the welfare state is morally necessary and is the only way to help the poor.
	Right?
	And so if people have a particular moral ideal...
	They will never change to oppose that.
	The only way to get people to change is to challenge their moral ideals.
	You've obviously tried that a number of times, and not only has it not taken, but even the conversation doesn't take because they then pretend that nothing happened and you end up fighting about other stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	So as far as change goes, I think you will die in that basement an old man waiting for change.
	I see.
	My thought.
	Again, you know, this is just my thoughts on it.
	I see.
	Yeah, I can see that.
	I just, you know, is there any way that I could, like, convey to them, like, I have a lot of issues with them to kind of clear, you know, out, but, like, the pain, you know, that I, like, feel, like, every single day You know, it's like they just walk, you know, like, for example, right?
	Something great happens to, like, my dad or whatever.
	He was adopted or whatever, and he gets reunited with his family, like, weeks ago.
	And he's, like, so incredibly happy and this and that, right?
	You know, but, like, I want to be happy for him, but, like, I can't because it's, like, for, like, what, six or seven years, My life has been like, your son has been in so much pain, and it's like you can't even see that.
	To even ask, hey Matt, what's wrong?
	I can't even get that.
	When I was asking myself, what would I like?
	What would I want?
	I feel kind of like a spy who gets his disguise mixed up.
	He starts conflating his Personality with that which he was pretending to be, I feel like I'm disappearing.
	That's how much the foundation of me, everything, nothing matters.
	I can't even get it to the point where there's even a conversation.
	Sorry for the rant, but...
	No, no, listen.
	I mean, I think it's more than a feeling, Matt.
	You are disappearing.
	You're like a ghost in the house.
	You're haunted.
	You're haunting, not living.
	Yeah.
	You're like skirting around the edges of this rejection, of this erasure of your fundamental identity.
	You are around people who refuse to see you, refuse to acknowledge who you are.
	And that is a form of non-existence.
	Actually, it's even worse than non-existence.
	We're all going to be non-existent.
	Eventually, we'll be dead.
	But it's anti-existence.
	Yeah.
	I mean, literally, if you and I were roommates and you came up to me and you said, you know, oh, I'm black, experienced black identity.
	And I said, you're not black.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay, you may think that you're black now, but just concentrate on whiteness.
	I don't know if it's so weird to even say this, but it would be completely bizarre.
	You know, just close your eyes, think of the Pillsbury Doughboy, click your heels three times together, and you too will need excesses of sunscreen to walk from your car to the mall.
	It would be like weird, right?
	Yeah, and it is.
	That's my life.
	It is very weird.
	Except being gay is more foundational than being black.
	But if I were to say, you just think you're black, Matt.
	You're just confused.
	Just keep thinking about Jesus being white and you'll become white.
	You've got blue eyes in there, man!
	I know it!
	Come on!
	Concentrate!
	Pray for whiteness!
	I mean, it would be weird.
	I would be, like, crazy to say that, right?
	And I would be rejecting and acting against something far less foundational to your identity than I mean, do you think if somebody switched my brain with a straight black guy, would I be more comfortable than if somebody switched my brain with a white woman?
	Yeah.
	With a black guy, that would have been easier.
	Yeah, absolutely!
	Especially if he was a young guy, I could run upstairs again.
	Sorry, I'm getting close to 50.
	I'm a little creaky.
	But...
	Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of down with the junk.
	I hate to tell you this, but that's pretty foundational.
	And this bigotry, you know, and I'm going to be right out there and just call it for the way that I see it, this bigotry against your sexual identity is worse than racism.
	It is.
	It really is.
	So...
	What would you suggest that I do moving forward?
	I think a lot and I try to understand why I think things and my motives behind things and stuff, but one of the things I realized is I'm not in a state to necessarily think logically because I'm reacting off of Pretty much everything.
	Yeah, no, I get that, but let me ask you this question really directly.
	Yeah.
	What are you waiting for at the moment?
	Because you really kind of stuck, right, where you are?
	Yeah.
	Right, days are kind of like photocopies, but you're getting older, and what are you...
	It feels...
	It seems like you're waiting for this.
	A movie called Shadowlands...
	Where the woman says to the man whose mom died early, it feels like you're always waiting for the footsteps down the hall of your mom to come back.
	People get stuck waiting for something.
	I've had it.
	It sounds like you just get stuck waiting for something.
	And I get the feeling, which could be completely wrong, but I get the feeling that you're there waiting for something.
	Yeah.
	I guess...
	I'm waiting for some type of honest recognition of me, pretty much.
	Right.
	Right.
	Logically, this is not...
	If it's going to come, it's not going to come because you're waiting, because you've been waiting for close on 20 years, right?
	Right.
	Kindergarten, you said you first noticed...
	Your affection for boys.
	And so, you know, 20 years, it ain't happened yet, in fact, and there's no signs of it happening.
	And even though you've come out and they know, it's, you know, it's like closet or nothing, right?
	Yeah.
	And you have gotten into a destructive relationship with a dangerous woman in an attempt to Find some way to give them what they want.
	And it's not happening.
	The best predictor of future behavior is relevant past behavior.
	And I don't think I'm going to shock anyone out there when I say waiting is not going to get you what you want in this situation.
	Putting your life on hold, no one is going to pick up that phone.
	When I hear that, I kind of think You know, feel like really scared, you know?
	Like...
	It really...
	It really hurt.
	It's like...
	I hear that and it's like, yeah, that's true.
	But like...
	It's like...
	How can they...
	I don't understand it.
	Like...
	Okay, don't give me the intellectualizing, because you're too smart for that, to get this emotional stuff, right?
	So what is the fear, right?
	What's the fear?
	Fear?
	I don't understand.
	I feel scared, but I don't know why.
	You know, it's like...
	Yes, you do!
	Yes, you do.
	You know, listeners never get to play dumb with me, right?
	Yes, yeah, that's true.
	Yeah, so I'm afraid this I don't know isn't gonna, right?
	So what is the fear?
	Right, so if I say, look, Your life situation right now is not going to get you what you want, in my opinion, and you feel fear.
	The fear is of what?
	I'm afraid of, you know, being, you know, alone, going out into the world alone, and, like, leaving, you know, my family.
	And if I do, it'd have to be for good.
	I really don't.
	Well, no.
	I mean, sorry, just technically, I mean, that's kind of catastrophizing.
	And I'm not, you know, because people get confused about this.
	I'm not saying you leave your family or anything.
	But I'm going to challenge you on the, I'm going to feel alone if I'm not here.
	Because, dear God, I mean, aren't you about as alone as a human being can be in this situation?
	Yeah.
	Very much.
	You know, it's like a guy out in the middle of the ocean saying, well, if I swim for shore, I'm going to get wet.
	It's like, you're already wet.
	So, basically...
	Go ahead, go ahead, sorry.
	So, basically what I have to...
	Well, because I'm at a point where something...
	No, no, no, no, no.
	Intellectualizing again.
	You're killing me.
	Boy, you're sharp.
	Yeah, don't...
	I can feel you jump up into your neofrontal cortex, you know, oh no, emotions, illicit feelings, run!
	Doink, boink, up you go, right?
	Yeah.
	Do you want me to say something that might be more connecting?
	Sure, yes.
	By staying, Matthew, you hope that you will not have to process the rejection.
	You hope that a miracle is going to happen.
	And you won't have to accept where things are and what they've been like with your family for as long as you can remember.
	I think that's accurate.
	Don't think.
	What does it feel?
	How do you feel when I say that?
	Yeah, I actually, my stomach kind of actually kind of knotted up.
	Right.
	Okay, well try and relax that stomach because your stomach is then trying to prevent you from getting the gut feeling.
	The second brain right down there in the solar plexus, your gut is trying to keep those feelings away from you because it's very painful to understand that we're in a situation where we can't get what we want if we keep doing the same thing.
	So when I say that you're there hoping a miracle is going to happen and you're not going to have to deal with the rejection you've experienced that has been pretty savage.
	I mean, you've not only got the ACE or Adverse Childhood Experience score of seven, but you've had this secret life, you've had this rejection of your identity, you've had this people basically saying that people like you should be rounded up and, I don't know, god-awful things happen to them or whatever, right?
	You've been called sinful, you've been called immoral, you've been told that your sexual identity is a temptation of the devil, which is a horrendous thing to hear.
	I mean, and in this environment, Where you're told that you're immoral, you're told that you're wrong, you're told that you're bad, you're told that it's disgusting, you're told that you are a stand-in for devilish impulses in an ancient fairy tale where you have been...
	Ignored and suppressed and rejected and where there's not any curiosity as far as I can tell about why you are where you are and all of this rejection and hostility and calling of immorality and evil has undermined your drives has undermined your capacity to feel that you can put one foot in front of the other and get someplace powerful and useful and noble in life.
	And so after you have been rejected and attacked and called evil, now after you came out consciously and with knowledge before, maybe you were just around when the conversations happened.
	Hey, I didn't know you were black when I was racist.
	But now, not only has all of this undermining and this hostility and this condemnation, this literal damnation, been occurring in your environment, But the effects of that on you are also piled on to your negative, supposedly negative characteristics.
	You're lazy, you're unmotivated, you're a parasite, you're whatever they're saying, right?
	I mean, you are ground down by this kind of hostility and damnation and rejection, and then the effects of being ground down are also piled on you as a negative, right?
	Yeah.
	It's really not fair.
	Now, I am not going to be the guy who feels this for you, though, because I feel it really strongly, but you don't.
	Yet.
	Right?
	So don't make me process all of these feelings, Matt.
	Because they're your feelings and it's your life, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, to be completely honest, I do have this I do have this gut feeling sometimes that you know, I gotta get out of here.
	And I just want to I've done it before, you know, but I do kind of feel like this is kind of like a life or death, you know, thing.
	Like, that's what I really feel, you know?
	No, I know.
	I think you're calling me because you get just how incredibly important the next couple of days or couple of weeks in your life are.
	Yeah.
	Like, I can't...
	I can't keep, you know, living like this.
	And it's just...
	I have so much, you know, anger, you know, and I almost want to just, you know, shake them and just...
	I don't know.
	It's hate, okay?
	Like, I really, really, really, really don't like them.
	You know?
	And I don't...
	I'm confused, so...
	No, no, you're not.
	No, you're not.
	You're just scared to say it out loud, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	It's...
	Look, look, and let me just give you a...
	Because I know it's tough to connect with this stuff.
	And if you want to keep talking, I'm happy to hear.
	But I can give you something that might help.
	Please do.
	Okay.
	So, Matt, imagine you find a great guy...
	And, you know, you live together, you get married, and you decide to, you know, have a surrogate or adopt a kid or whatever, right?
	And let's say your kid is gay.
	Your son, your daughter is gay, right?
	Just the way it turned out, right?
	Yeah.
	So you have a little boy, and you get this little boy, you know?
	Yeah.
	You get them, right?
	You know.
	You know what it's like.
	Yeah.
	Now, imagine that you bring your little boy over to your parents' house.
	And your little boy, because he's growing up with you, doesn't feel like he's got to hide who he is.
	Because you wouldn't want him to hide who he is, right?
	Right.
	I mean, you might say, maybe in certain situations you might want to butch it up a little, but you would not want him to hide who he was, right?
	Right.
	Your mom and dad and your grandmother, the extended family, whatever, right?
	Your son comes over with you to this environment.
	How would they react?
	What would they do?
	When he's not hiding who he is.
	They'd recoil immediately.
	More than recoil?
	Yeah.
	I mean, they hadn't just recoiled with you, right?
	Yeah.
	I would be...
	I feel angry just...
	I feel really angry.
	Well, no, that's why I'm telling you this.
	I'm telling you this because that little boy is you, as you know, right?
	And I'm trying to get the continuity of your experience...
	In your spine.
	You need to connect with that.
	Because this is, you know, you say that your parents don't want to be honest.
	This is what I'm inviting you to do.
	Not that I'm saying you're being dishonest, Matt, but this is the honest nature of your experience.
	That the little boy you would bring over is you.
	So think about how they would treat him and how bewildered and hurt he would be.
	Yeah.
	I... Oh my God, I... Tell me.
	Tell me.
	I'd attack them.
	I would defend everything that I had for my kids like that.
	Because I just know all the tricks in the head games that they play that would put into his head.
	All the insinuating doubts and passive aggressiveness.
	And then when he freaks out, I just know it.
	And it's wrong.
	And I... I know what's on the other side of that laughter, and if you can connect with that, that would be very energizing for you.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	What's on the other side of that laughter?
	When you were talking about the tricks and the mind games and the undermining that they would do.
	Well, it's me crying, basically.
	It's crying and screaming, probably.
	And what if they said, Matt, that your boy was going to go to hell?
	And that God hates fags?
	Someone would have to call the police.
	You would be incendiary angry, right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	In the same way that if some piss-poor, waste-of-skin racist said, you know, blacks are bad, whatever.
	But just some god-awful thing if your son was black.
	I mean, it would just be...
	You would not want your son exposed to that.
	You wouldn't want that stuff in his head.
	And you would recognize, I think, that that would be a toxic environment that would be harmful to him, right?
	Yes, extremely.
	And then you would have to explain to your son why these people are your friends, why he's there.
	If you put it like that, it makes the urgency.
	Because I do want a family.
	And honestly, I would never wish on anyone, you know, the kind of crazy head games and all that stuff.
	I wouldn't wish that on anybody to feel like nothing.
	It used to be my nickname, by the way, Ghost.
	Hmm.
	Yeah.
	I... At this point where I'm at now, I... Where are you going?
	Where are you going now?
	Back into your head.
	Back into the brochure.
	It's the feelings that are going to propel you, right?
	When you intellectualize...
	And look, don't get me wrong.
	There's nothing wrong with intellectualizing.
	I mean, it's top of my gig too, right?
	But when you intellectualize, you lose the strength.
	You lose the momentum, right?
	Yeah.
	You lose the throughput of energy that you need to really get something going in your life.
	Look, I would love for you to be in an environment where you were accepted and supported for who you were.
	I mean, Lord knows that has not been an excess of factors in your life so far, right?
	Yeah.
	And that's not where you are.
	That's not where you are.
	And I'm not saying, like, don't talk to your family, don't see your family, I'm not saying anything like that, but what I'm saying is that in this environment, you are repeating the invisibility and anti-you that you've had to enact for your whole life.
	You are used to not being yourself, to being anti-yourself, to hiding and pretending to be the opposite of who you are.
	That's how you have gained a sense of efficacy and strength and competence in your life.
	I walk at 45 degrees because I've had a fucking wind up my nose for 20 years, right?
	And if I walk a place where there's no wind, I'm going to just fall down.
	Right?
	This...
	Has become, and I talk about this in real-time relationships, you can look it up if it's called Simon the Boxer, but this has become, like being anti-you has become your sense of competence, your sense of efficacy.
	This is what you're used to, this is what you know.
	But you know it leads to a place that is worse than nowhere.
	You know, I remember, let me tell you a funny little story.
	Weird little story.
	But a very, for me, it was a powerful little story.
	So, a big Peter Gabriel fan.
	And he's got this song called, I Don't Remember.
	I Don't Remember.
	I Don't Recall.
	I Got No Memory of Anything at All.
	And I remember watching that video with my family.
	They weren't watching the video.
	They were just doing their own thing.
	I was watching this video.
	And in the video...
	The word is now and the word is here.
	Now, here.
	Now, here.
	Keeps being repeated in text flying through the video.
	Now, here.
	Now, Matt, when you take now and here and you put them together, what do you get?
	Nowhere.
	Nowhere.
	And I remember when I first saw that, I felt dizzy.
	I'm sitting there with my family.
	Now.
	Here.
	And the words in the video come together at the end.
	Nowhere.
	Now and here is nowhere.
	Shit.
	I just...
	I know you don't, you're not saying that I should, but...
	The overwhelming feeling that I'm getting right now, especially after hearing that, is I have to get out of here.
	I think you need to get to an environment where you're going to get some support and recognition and love.
	You need love.
	You need love.
	You need love and you're not getting it in your environment.
	And I'm concerned that anyone who tries to give you love in this environment is going to run into a lot of thorns, right?
	Yeah, that already happened once.
	That's a deep regret of mine.
	We need to get to places where our hearts can be open.
	We need to get to places where we feel safe and secure enough to love without reservation, without fear, without feeling like I gotta pack this shit up really quickly at a moment's notice, right?
	Yeah.
	You know, that's that old cliche.
	I guess it's not that old cliche, right?
	So, man watching porn on a computer and his girlfriend walks in.
	Close the...
	Turn off the screen.
	Pull up my pen.
	Whatever, right?
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Because it's like, oh shit, I'm caught!
	Yeah.
	But let's not have love like porn on a computer.
	I'm in love.
	Oh shit, I'm caught.
	Ah, cover it right.
	This way you are.
	You've got to close up crazy quick.
	Yeah.
	Your heart can't be open.
	You can't have a passageway for people of goodwill and virtue to find you.
	Because imagine how your family's going to be.
	They're content with you where you are, which is a very not happy place.
	So what's going to happen if you get happier in your current environment?
	Oh, they'll have problems with me.
	Well, I think so.
	Because they'll know deep down.
	You know, the stuff that people don't talk about dominates them the most.
	We talk about things to reduce the power of the unspoken on us.
	Silence is the greatest spell.
	It is the greatest physics.
	You know, it's like if you say the word gravity, suddenly you're immune from gravity.
	And if you speak about the unspoken, it has far less power over you.
	Your gayness is dominating your household.
	And so if you get happier, I bet your family's going to know exactly why that's going on.
	Hey, Junior's getting some.
	Ew!
	Right?
	And how are they going to react to that?
	I don't know, but I'm guessing not positively.
	But it won't be spoken of.
	They'll just unconsciously act against your acquisition of rational, loving happiness with another man, and they'll just work against it somehow.
	You said that's happened once before?
	Yeah.
	That was actually after, as soon as I graduated from high school.
	It was a pretty bad situation.
	That was the year of the divorce, and my sister and mother were forced to move out.
	And I... Met a transsexual, and she was going through a hard time, so we just went out and I spent like a week...
	Wait, hang on.
	I'm sorry to be overly straight here, but okay, I've been pretty white too.
	But when you say transsexual, she, transitioning to or transitioning from?
	It was transitioning to.
	Okay, sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, and I basically spent like a week at her house, and that was when...
	She kind of was like, no bullshit with me.
	It was like, look, I know you're gay.
	And I dodged and dodged and dodged until I just kind of gave in.
	There was no running away from that.
	And it was the best week of my life.
	We just drove around and talked about things about our family and everything like that.
	And it was really weird because my family never called me before with like, Every day, it was like, we miss you, and what's going on, and we're worried about you.
	Oh shit, he's getting support.
	Yeah, and when I came back finally here, oh my goodness, they didn't even ask me what I did.
	It was just straight on.
	That was one of the most aggressive I've ever seen, my father in particular, and my grandmother.
	And it was like, yeah, it was kind of like they knew, but like, I don't know.
	So that's why I say, you know, I know it's happened before because, like, if I were to do that tomorrow, you know, it's like a slow progression.
	They just get meaner and meaner.
	Like, it doesn't matter what I do.
	It's just, if I'm happy and if I'm enjoying myself or I'm smiling too much, I mean, it's I don't want to think, you know, that honestly this is real, you know?
	What is real?
	Like the fact that my happiness is not allowed, you know, in their presence, sort of, you know?
	But your happiness is going to be bound up in an acceptance of your sexual identity and in romantic love with a man and all of that.
	And of course that's unacceptable.
	They've very clearly said that this is a sin, that this is wrong, this is bad.
	And I'll tell you something, Matt.
	If you have self-knowledge, you can never win a battle with the unspoken.
	You can never win a battle with the unspoken when you have self-knowledge.
	Because you've already lost because it's unspoken.
	You know, it's like, here's all the guns in the world.
	I now have a Q-tip.
	Let's fight.
	Well, that's not going to go well, right?
	Yeah.
	So the moment that you've surrendered your honesty to an environment, you will never get what you want and certainly never win in that environment because you've already thrown away the only thing that can bring victory, which is honesty, outspokenness, Identity, right?
	Ghosts don't win.
	I've never seen a ghost movie where the ghost wins.
	It just never happens.
	Do you have any capacity or any opportunity to get to any kind of therapy?
	I don't have a job right now, so not really.
	Would you go to therapy?
	I mean, obviously you'd want to find a gay positive therapist and so on, but would you go to therapy if that was available?
	Yeah, definitely, yes.
	Would you take some help in that area?
	I mean, financial help?
	Certainly, yeah.
	Good.
	Will you?
	Because we'll pay.
	Really?
	Absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	Of course, my brother.
	Absolutely.
	Yeah, of course.
	Yes.
	Good.
	Good.
	Okay.
	So, practically, you know how to contact Mike.
	Contact Mike.
	Call therapists and just Send us how much it costs for a month or two, and we'll send you the money, and then if you need more, just let us know.
	That's tremendous, Stefan.
	I really thank you for that.
	Dude, I mean, it's a real pleasure.
	I mean, you are...
	A smart and sensitive and great guy.
	You know, you're in a difficult situation and it's some pretty heavy lifting.
	And, you know, we have this conversation, but you need, you know, just as I need it at particular junctures in my life.
	I think this is somewhere where a great therapist can...
	Can really help you out because you'll need some support.
	It's a big change, you know, trying to figure out where you can be yourself, in what environment you can be yourself.
	But, you know, there's that old joke, be yourself.
	Everyone else is taken.
	What is your option, ghost or flesh?
	Sure, yeah.
	I'm kind of in shock right now.
	Yeah.
	We are here to relentlessly help people until they get annoyed with us.
	That is always the plan.
	We've done it before.
	We'll do it again.
	And I would be completely thrilled to help out in that way.
	Well, thank you very much.
	You're very welcome.
	Of course, you'll be doing most of the work.
	Is there more that you wanted to chat about with this?
	I mean, I know it's a huge topic, but I do have callers waiting in the wings.
	You've given me more than enough advice and help, so I'm very pleased.
	Thank you very much.
	But you will at least definitely call us and find a therapist, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Good.
	All right.
	It's recorded, so you have to now.
	Well, listen, thanks a lot for calling in.
	I really, really appreciate it.
	I am...
	You know, I can tell you, well, that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
	But a lot of it just sucks.
	And I'm really sorry about that.
	You know, the only thing that we can say is that it sucks less than other points in the history of the world to sort of be where we are and in particular to be where you are.
	So there is, you know, there's great stuff ahead of you.
	You've got a big heart.
	You've got a Good head on your shoulders.
	And you've got a huge amount of strength.
	And that's going to serve you well in the future.
	But yeah, I think something to shake up some of the stasis would do you no end of good.
	And yeah, so I really, really appreciate you calling in.
	And thank you so much for trusting me with this incredibly sensitive stuff.
	How did I do, by the way?
	Because that's also important to know as well.
	It was astonishing, really.
	I usually have a pretty...
	Quick head, you know, I could think on my feet, but you really sent me in for a loop many times.
	And that's, I think that's great.
	A lot of stuff to think about and kept me really honest.
	So I really appreciate that.
	Good.
	Well, I appreciate that, too.
	So we'll obviously keep track of how you're doing.
	But yeah, let's help you.
	That's what we're all about.
	And it will be fantastic for you, I think.
	I look forward to it.
	Thanks, man.
	Take care.
	All right.
	Thanks, Matthew.
	I'll be in touch to work out the details and everything, but thanks so much for calling in.
	All right.
	Well, Luke is up next.
	Luke wrote in and said...
	Wait a minute.
	Is this like First Testament book joke?
	Genesis couldn't make it because they disbanded.
	Up next, Apostle Paul.
	Luke wrote in and said, Can family and business mix?
	I've worked for my father's company since I was young, starting as a laborer and after a post-secondary education as a designer slash specialist.
	My father is pondering a near-future retirement, which gives me the opportunity to take over most of the executive decisions and access to a profit-sharing deal with my father and his business.
	However, I also have a side business, which I feel can be very profitable, but it needs more time to develop.
	I don't think it would be feasible to take on further responsibility and more hours with my father's company while putting in full effort into developing my side business.
	The thought of make your own way always runs through my head.
	I'm not sure if I'm selling myself short by taking the easier, safer route of running the family business.
	Steph, could you help me with this decision as I don't have anyone in my life with entrepreneurial and business knowledge whose opinion I trust?
	That's from Luke.
	Alright.
	Hello, Luke.
	How are you?
	How are you doing?
	I'm well.
	How are you doing?
	Good.
	We just looped that completely.
	My middle name is John, by the way, just to add to that joke.
	Is it really?
	Yeah.
	Okay, good to know.
	My middle name is New Testament.
	But what...
	So you've got a business that your dad's retiring from that's kind of turnkey, right?
	That's up and running in customer revenue, employees, all that?
	Yeah, yeah, basically.
	I mean, it's not technologically advanced.
	He's got that old 80s-style desk with the fax machine and the calculator with the little receipt paper attached to it.
	It's funny, but still very profitable.
	He actually founded it in 88 when I was born.
	So there was a lot of hard work involved.
	But, you know, coming into the post-internet age, you know, there's room for improvement, let's say, as far as, you know, administrative work.
	And...
	And just getting the name out there, the business name out there, I feel there could be more improvement in that aspect.
	Wait, that's a good or a bad thing?
	It sounds like a great thing.
	It is, it is, and that's why I'm interested in it.
	But again, the other side of it that I'm fighting with is, again, the make your own way and the I understand that you started from humble beginnings and made a name for yourself and I admire that.
	I just don't know if I could get that same sense of accomplishment from that path.
	Well, yeah.
	I mean, I was in business with family, so I don't know that we were actually at opposite ends of the stick as far as that goes.
	Oh, I wasn't aware of that.
	Yeah, yeah.
	No, and it was a family member's area of expertise, not even mine.
	So, I mean, there's real pluses, of course, to taking over your dad's business, right?
	I mean, it's established.
	It sounds like you've got great ideas to grow it, you know, next generation sensibilities and so on.
	So, you know, and obviously, there'll be change challenges in the business and all that.
	Yeah.
	Last but not least, in fact, maybe even most, that you have a very experienced businessman in the form of your father who can provide you free business consultation, who's very experienced in the field.
	There's some real positives to that, and there's no telling how far you might be able to take that.
	Right.
	And that kind of relates to the second part of the question was that he's a pretty incessant micromanager and there's a lot of things that I feel he just was completely ignorant to.
	And I mean, again, not that he didn't work his ass off to get this business up and running, but The economy was ripe for, let's say, you know, again, the pre-internet, post-internet, you know, when a customer would come pre-internet,
	right, you can only price out the local business, the most local business, however you want to term it, as opposed to post-internet, where, you know, there would be five different companies that have made the price on it.
	For the manufacturing company at that time.
	And that's where...
	I'm sorry.
	I have my heart in my throat right now.
	I can't really talk.
	It comes down to...
	it basically still comes down to it comes down to a almost pessimism as well as far as for lack of a better term economic stability as far as the near future
	And I kind of wanted to get your opinion on that too.
	Is my pessimism misplaced or am I being almost cynical in a way to be apprehensive of Of leaving and, you know, trying something else.
	I would try to really avoid labeling your emotions.
	Right.
	Luke, I mean, you know, am I being cynical?
	I mean, you're having your feelings, right?
	I mean, and they're really trying to help you.
	And if you label them, then they're not going to get their say.
	And then you're not going to have useful guidance based upon...
	History, right?
	Emotions are a great way of synthesizing history.
	You know, good for me, bad for me, positive, negative, and so on.
	Of course, it's complicated.
	It's never just one thing.
	But if you judge your emotions, they don't tend to, you know, like anyone you judge or try and label, you don't get the complexity of the feedback, right?
	So that's sort of my first piece of advice.
	Business, in my experience, business makes family relations more of whatever they are.
	Oh, wow.
	Yeah, that's bang on.
	Yeah, I mean, so, you know, if there's competition, hey, look at that.
	We're more competitive, right?
	If there's cooperation, hey, look, we're more cooperative, right?
	So, you know, to me, it's sort of like getting married.
	You know, getting married is going to make your relationship more of whatever it is, you know?
	Hey, are you fractious?
	Get married.
	You'll be more fractious.
	You know, are you peaceful and easygoing?
	Get married.
	You'll be more peaceful.
	Like, it's just, it's steroids up, right?
	Commitment steroids up, whatever you've got going on in the relationship.
	It just, you know, it turns the volume up.
	Love the song?
	Great.
	Hate the song?
	Is it Chinese opera?
	You know, then it's just an annoying noise.
	Well, to take that idea a little further, I guess, the What got amplified, it seems, because my dad wanted another kid, but my mom didn't want one, so it almost seemed like he was...
	Maybe this is unfair, but it almost seems like he was grooming me, you know?
	And that's an uncomfortable feeling, you know?
	And, yeah, now that this time has arrived, you know, it's the added pressure of the air, per se, you know, the air to the...
	Yeah, and of course there may be people in the company who want to take over the big boss position and if you get slithered in there because you're the son, there may be some resentment.
	I mean there's transitional challenges around this, fears of nepotism and so on.
	I mean, I remember...
	When I was in my 20s, I don't want to get into the whole story, but I got in touch and eventually a man wanted me to take over his business.
	And I was trying to decide whether I wanted to do my master's, and this was a pretty interesting and positive business opportunity that could have occurred.
	And my big concern was like, well, wait a minute, you've got sons who are not that dissimilar for me in age, so why am I here?
	And that was, you know, sort of an important question.
	But the other thing, and this is sort of what reminded me, is this guy was like, you know, this business is a lot of work.
	You know, he was sort of reinforcing that.
	And you said that a couple of times.
	My dad worked his ass off, right?
	Yeah.
	Well, that might mean that, you know, if you've got to pedal really hard, maybe it's a whole lot uphill.
	You know, some businesses can be sustained by...
	Workaholism subsidies, right?
	Sorry, can you expand on that?
	The subsidies part?
	I just didn't get that analogy.
	If you can get people to work for free, a lot of business models work that wouldn't otherwise work, right?
	Okay.
	And if you as the owner are putting in massive amounts of overtime, Then you are subsidizing your business at the expense of the rest of your life.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Right, so if the business is like, oh my god, you know, if I work a hundred hours a week, this business is sustainable.
	It's like, I would argue that that is not sustainable, right?
	I mean, because you're subsidizing it by drastically reducing the price of your labor.
	Yeah, that's a great point that almost...
	Defines the situation perfectly.
	So if you can find a way to improve the productivity of the operation so that you don't have to put in 100-hour weeks, and look, there are times when it's going to happen as an entrepreneur, you know, it's not like never, right?
	But you can't have that as your whole life.
	At least I don't think that's a particularly healthy approach, this, you know, Japanese middle management karoshi situation.
	Yeah.
	And so if you can, like if you say, oh, my dad's been working these crazy hours, but there's things that we can do to improve the operation so that you don't have to work as much and so on, then I think that's good.
	But I find that a lot of small businesses are sustainable entrepreneurs.
	Yeah.
	subsidies.
	And also sometimes there's subsidies from like, you know, think of those convenience stores, you know, like these godforsaken convenience stores where it's like, we're open from six in the morning until midnight.
	It's like, but there's only one person here at any given time.
	Yes!
	And I get six hours sleep a day.
	It's like, I don't think that's a very sustainable business.
	I think that's kind of burning the candle at both ends.
	No, because my 14-year-old son works for free sometimes, you know, after school and weekends.
	It's like, I don't know that robbing someone's childhood is the same as having a sustainable...
	Anyway.
	So, it is important that if, you know, look at the amount of work that the person is doing in the business as it stands.
	If you've got ways to improve it so you don't have to work that hard, if it's too much, then great.
	But if not, you know, I have to stop pedaling this bike because my heart's about to explode.
	Here, can you pedal it for 20 years?
	It's like, hmm, not...
	Yeah, that's a good point.
	Is there anything else that you'd like to add?
	I mean, I want to keep this call short just so everyone can get fit in here.
	But I just have one more kind of tangent, if you don't have any.
	Wait, you want to keep the call short, but you have a tangent.
	Just one little one.
	Well, which is it?
	No, look, it's your call.
	I mean, if you've been waiting for a while, if you've got a tangent you want to ask about.
	But sorry, just before that, so...
	Doing your own thing has obviously, this is not a moral decision, it's pluses and minuses.
	But your dad's investment, he would, I'm sure, be very happy to have that continue, right?
	You could, of course, your dad could sell the business and, you know, you could make money off that and so on.
	And maybe he'd like to invest in your new business, ways that you could take the value of his business.
	But I'm sure that, I'm guessing that he would like for you to take over his existing business, right?
	And if it's got momentum and it's got customers and you've got ways to improve it, you don't have to be there for the rest of your life, right?
	You could work to double the value of the business in a couple of years and then sell it and then use that seed capital to start your own business, right?
	I mean, there's lots of different options here that you could pursue.
	But I think those are just sort of some ideas that I would throw your way in trying to consider this.
	It doesn't have to be.
	It's not one or the other forever, right?
	Yeah, right.
	Yeah, for some reason I just, I overlooked that point of, you know, it doesn't have to be a till retirement type of thing.
	No, you've got a great chance to be an almost entrepreneur, which is fantastic, right?
	I mean, you want to be an almost surgeon before you're a surgeon, right?
	Practice on oranges, then practice on the cadavers and so on, right?
	Before hopefully not making any...
	And so you get to understand a lot about business when there's something that's already running, that already has customers, that already has cash flow.
	And I assume the cash flow is stable because otherwise you don't usually have much of a business.
	You've got a smoking crater of missed expectations.
	And so I would say that if you can cut your teeth with a business advisor and an established business model, you could work to figure out how to Raise the value for business, which is what everyone's trying to do as an entrepreneur.
	And you've got that with a good business advisor and a functional business model that's been going on forever, right?
	I mean, what is that?
	Like, since 1988?
	Yeah, that's quite a long time, right?
	27 years, something like that?
	So you could do that and then you can...
	Grow the business and maybe if you want out you can sell the business, give some money to your dad, keep some money for yourself, use that to start a new business while you've already got experience on the existing business.
	So I think that there's a lot that you could do that way.
	That's just my thoughts.
	But anyway, you want to go on with your tangent?
	Yeah, well thanks for that input.
	The last question might be a little bit more personal to you actually.
	It involves stress with a high amount of work hours.
	I was wondering if you guys have done any empirical research into stress as far as it correlates to any different types of disease, like probability.
	Have you guys looked into any data on that?
	Yeah, I mean, I don't know for sure.
	I mean, some of the stress models have been blown up.
	Like, so when I was younger, you know, ulcers were considered to be a sign of stress.
	And as far as I understand it, that has been disproven.
	I think that there was a kind of bacteria that was causing it, not stress.
	Some stress is beneficial to life.
	You know, it's the Aristotelian mean.
	An excess of stress is not beneficial to life.
	I don't know the degree to which people have found...
	Clear correlations between stress and particular kinds of disease.
	But, you know, my sort of belief is, yeah, you don't want to completely stress less life because I think that just produces the anxiety of not doing anything.
	But I think that you want to try and find sort of a happy medium where you have a stress more like nervous anticipation and excitement and so on.
	But you don't want to be in those sort of relentless cornered Gestapo situations.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And that's where that question was coming from.
	Even physical changes I've seen in my dad as far as just losing a ton of weight and Very, very short views.
	I often say he gets mad at the drop of a hat.
	Literally, if he dropped his hat on the ground, he'd have a malfunction in the middle of the shop.
	It's a good point, finding that happy medium is tough.
	Yeah, as a species, I mean, I guess like most mammals or other animals, we...
	You know, fight or flight is part of our mechanism, right?
	But eventually, you're supposed to get away from the tiger...
	Or the tiger's gonna eat you, right?
	But the idea that you run for five years from the tiger, your heart pounding in terror the whole time, that's not good for the system, right?
	So fight or flight is perfectly fine, but you don't want to be in a situation where it's just like sustained stress.
	I think that wears out the system fairly rapidly.
	Right, right.
	Okay, well, yeah, just before I leave, thanks for your work, and Mike and Stoyan, thanks for everything you guys do.
	I know you guys put in a heck of a lot of work, so just let me extend my thanks.
	Yeah, I found for the frugal donators, or the people that haven't started donating yet, if you donate $10 a month, And then make one yearly donation, that will put you into the gold.
	So just for all those frugal people that haven't started donating yet, I think that's the best value route to go.
	But at the end of the day, it's whatever you can chip in.
	Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
	And, you know, for people who do donate, there are bonus podcasts and audiobooks and other cool stuff that's available on the message board.
	But, you know, thanks very much.
	And will you let us know what you decide?
	Yeah, for sure.
	Absolutely.
	Thanks, Luke.
	Great, thank you.
	Best of luck.
	Bye.
	Alright, thanks Luke.
	Up next is Christina.
	Christina wrote in and said, given that it is natural for a husband to lose interest in his wife when she ages and her beauty starts to fade, what do you think of making it normal and expected and completely above the table?
	That the husband visits young prostitutes once the wife's aging starts to show.
	In effect, this would be like outsourcing the part of the relationship which is disappointing to the man because of her natural aging, so they can avoid the grueling experience of divorce.
	She could, of course, get a cat to meet her needs.
	That's from Christina.
	Alrighty.
	Interesting question.
	How are you doing?
	I'm doing great, Stefan.
	Can you hear me?
	Yes, yes, I can.
	Very nice.
	Nice.
	Now, I just want to know, and you don't have to give me any details, of course, but to what degree this is a theoretical question and to what degree this might be more practical, immediate?
	I don't exactly know how to put it.
	It's actually both.
	A lot of it was prompted by, I took a recent trip to Thailand and I live in the United States in a fairly remote area, and it's quite remote.
	I'm not around any cities at all.
	But I went to a city in Thailand, and because I don't travel to metropolitan areas much, one thing that I noticed in these cities, I went to a pretty fancy shopping mall, and it was a five-story shopping mall, very large, lots of floors.
	One floor of the shopping mall was dedicated just to cosmetic procedures such as laser whitening, skin tightening, all sorts of procedures, fat-sucking, to defy...
	I'm sorry, was that back-sucking?
	Do you mean like sucking back fat out?
	No, fat, fat, fat.
	Lipo-sucking.
	Because it feels to me that natural aging, particularly for women, is forbidden if we go down this trajectory.
	And it was a little bit shocking to me.
	I think the people in Thailand are already very beautiful, but to have all these aesthetics businesses, and these procedures are not cheap.
	And my concern is that if this becomes the new normal where maintaining a level of beauty that is really natural in your early years is expected, what's the consequence of that?
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah, I mean, I think colloquially it's called when women hit the wall.
	Um...
	Which is sort of the cougar town thing where a woman's youthful sexual appeal begins to fade.
	She gets a little sallow, a little wrinkly, a little saggy and so on.
	She does.
	But I think if things were allowed to run their course and all these, how should I say, all these...
	These procedures and technology and cosmetics couldn't intervene with that, then her spiritual beauty, her ability to hold her community, her family in harmony and love would be the beautiful thing instead of running to this quite artificial prop.
	Right.
	No, and I think that that's...
	A very important point.
	And rightly or wrongly, my instinct with women who run to plastic surgery and run to excessive makeup and is basically it's this giant big sign over their head saying, I'm not that likable.
	I think it's a trap.
	Go on.
	I feel that it's a trap.
	And I feel that, you know, especially when your celebrity status, it's become so normalized that you're running to plastic surgery, mostly for females, but also for males.
	One example of someone who didn't do that is Bridget Bardot.
	A sex goddess from the 60s, 70s, and she has chosen to age naturally.
	She's 83, and because she's not decided to step on this bandwagon of plastic surgery and artificial enhancements, She's choosing to receive ridicule for that, which I think is stupid.
	I think there's a time that people have to say, you know, this is silly.
	It's just silly.
	No, I agree with that.
	I agree with that.
	And there is, of course, enormous power in youthful female beauty and fertility.
	Correct.
	I mean, it's the very source of life itself.
	I mean, it's like God's gateway to new human beings, right?
	So there is an enormous amount of power in women's youthful sexuality and fertility.
	And to me, the point of that is use that to attract and keep, or at least attract, the very best man that you can.
	And if you've attracted the very best man with your youthful beauty and fertility, then Work on your personality, work on your virtue, work on your positive contributions to your community, to your family, to your children, to your husband, to your society, in whatever way you can.
	And that's the great compensation for aging, is greater virtue, greater wisdom, greater experience, greater capacity for love, greater capacity for perspective.
	And so what happens then as your youth and your beauty begin to fade away, and I mean, a woman or a man who exercises and eats well and so on can remain attractive.
	I'm going to be 49 this year, and I don't think I'm falling apart or anything like that, and I can still do pretty much everything I could do when I was 18.
	Yeah.
	Just need four-day rests in between everything.
	So I think that as your beauty, physical, mere physical beauty begins to decay, then the beauty of the spirit, the beauty of the virtue, the beauty of the personality should shine through.
	And then the idea that...
	A man would look at his wife and say, well, you know, wrinkles of experience and laugh lines and frown lines and all that make her ugly.
	I think he's just noticing that she was always ugly.
	She just doesn't have that nice gift wrapping anymore.
	And so what is your feeling about the whole plastic surgery craze?
	I think it's, you know, I think if it's to correct a problem, like a hair lip or something like that, then I think it's obviously great.
	I think it's a wonderful thing.
	You know, there was some kid who was born recently without a nose, and the degree to which a plastic surgery could help give a nose, I think, is wonderful.
	And I think it should be applauded as something that's very beneficial.
	The idea that...
	You inject poison into your face to reduce wrinkles.
	The idea that you get, you know, this nip tuck and this little vacuums that go into your back to suck out your muffin tops and stuff like that.
	And the degree to, you know, you get your nose changed for merely aesthetic reasons and all of that.
	And you get your limbs plumped and all.
	I just think that stuff is vile.
	I think it's...
	Honestly, I think it's seriously disturbed thinking and disturbed behavior.
	And...
	You know, I'm going to catch flack for it, but I'm just telling people this is what I feel.
	I'm not saying that I have any big philosophical arguments behind it.
	I think there's some reasons behind it.
	But I think that people who are willing to undergo the knife, who are willing to get cut open and bleed for the sake of trying to preserve some youthful attractiveness, I think they're kind of missing the point.
	Yeah, you're going to get older.
	I'm going to get older.
	As Steve Martin used to say, one day my hair will go white.
	One day I'm going to lose my hair.
	You're going to get old.
	You're going to get wrinkly.
	Everybody knows that and you can then either focus on putting your time energy and resources into improving the qualities of your personality or You can just become some neurotic, obsessive youth chaser who's attempting to stave off the inevitable decay of age with a wide variety of somewhat dangerous medical procedures.
	So I think it's really disturbed.
	And I mean, I'm just telling you, like if I was dating a woman and she said, oh, I've had this done and I've had this done and I've had this done.
	I would be like, that would be it for me.
	I would just be like, you are just way too high maintenance and you're doing that in order to remain attractive.
	The question is, if you're a woman or a man who's 55 and you're not an attractive person...
	Then looking younger is not the way that you're going to stay attractive and you're going to lose that battle.
	You know, you're going to lose the battle.
	Nobody wins against time.
	Nobody wins against aging.
	You know, Brigitte Bardot, even if she had all the work done in the world, if she had Gordian knots tied in the back of her head to stretch out her face, she ain't getting...
	Any Sports Illustrated bikini model shots anytime soon.
	Just not the way that it works.
	And anybody who thinks that they can win the battle against time and puts resources into that is just saying that they're desperately trying to stave off any situation where anyone is going to have to ever evaluate them according to the quality of their personality.
	And I found those people way too exhausting to be around.
	I agree, Stefan.
	And there's another personal aspect to the question that I ask.
	As I said earlier, I live in a quite remote part of the United States, and it's almost a place where people come to get away from it all.
	There's a business in my extremely small town, which is an international bride procurement service.
	Because the place that I live from the mainland of the United States is away from it all, it draws extreme wealth.
	And there's also the people that are just living day to day doing, you know, the house cleaning or house painting.
	But we really have a disparity.
	But the people of extreme wealth, there is this service which is an international bride procurement service.
	Where basically, over the internet, you can review pictures of really beautiful girls.
	I mean, I've never made that much effort to find a mate.
	But these girls are from third world countries for the most part.
	And some sort of connection happens.
	And a wife and a husband are matched.
	With usually a great financial disparity and an age disparity.
	And they live out their lives in whatever way that is.
	It's almost like an arrangement.
	I feel like...
	Almost like an arrangement.
	I'm sorry.
	In what part is it not like an arrangement?
	No, it is.
	But there's all different levels of arrangement.
	I think in some cases, a real love and a human connection happens.
	In other cases, the female understands it's a job that she has to do to lift her own third world family out of poverty.
	But I feel that It's a funny thing.
	It's a funny thing.
	The president of this company is a man who he himself has been divorced seven times, not having found the right woman or whatever that is.
	It's a funny thing.
	But there's a fixation of beauty and the females from these very, very poor countries are selling beauty and they're selling predictable feminine services, domestic services, sexual services.
	Because they're so much younger, there's almost a guarantee that they're going to be beautiful to be gazed upon and to provide some kind of service.
	But as a female and as someone who knows a lot of females, it's a difficult thing I think for a female to overcome this internal aversion To making love, nurturing, and embracing a man old enough to be her grandfather so that you can survive and your family can survive.
	Do you have any comments on the commercialization of beauty with third world and first world dynamics?
	Oh, I mean, it's hideous.
	And the more that we can do to open up free markets in the third world and cut off these old leches from these nubile young women, I think the better off we're going to be.
	There is a story floating around in Canada at the moment that Tim Hortons, I guess it's in the States too, Tim Hortons, co-founder, has received a lawsuit on a sexual assault.
	And he calls it extortion.
	And I'll just read a tiny little bit of it.
	So, Mr.
	Joyce's name is a twice-married father of seven who's been divorced for decades.
	Met this woman in 2005 when he was 74 and she was 24.
	Because, I mean, what 24-year-old woman is not looking for a 74-year-old man?
	They developed a relationship, right?
	He's one of the richest men in Canada because...
	Donuts and coffee apparently is gold up here, baby.
	It's gold.
	So they met in 2005 when he was 74 and she was 24.
	They developed a relationship.
	According to his defense statement, the plaintiff and him engaged in consensual sexual activities, but on an on-call type of basis.
	In any event, he maintains that in May 2013, she tried to blackmail him by threatening a lawsuit if he didn't help her financially.
	According to his defense statement, she threatened to damage his reputation and report the alleged attack to the police, who declined to lay criminal charges.
	And people can do whatever they want with this information.
	But, yeah, I don't know the degree to which, if you're like a 74-year-old man, I don't know the degree to which you could possibly think that it's not about money.
	And I think that level of self-delusion is like...
	So let's say some beautiful woman from some third world country wants to come and marry your spotty old wrinkly ass when you're 70 or 60 or whatever...
	I mean, how could you possibly not know why she was there?
	That she was trapped and forced, in many ways you could say forced, by the horrors of her current existence and current environment to come over and prostitute herself for some old guy with money so that her family can eat.
	Do you believe that it's never possible for a, let's say, 70-year-old or 65-year-old to fall in love authentically with a 25-year-old, let's say?
	I do not think that is even remotely possible.
	Why not?
	The life experience, look, either she's as mature...
	As a 75-year-old, which I think is physically impossible.
	Emotionally, you just can't cram 50 years into a 25-year-old body.
	An extra 50 years.
	So she can't be as mature.
	And they have vastly different Life experiences.
	I mean, one person is just starting their life.
	The other person is getting ready for the final curtain aspect of their life.
	Doesn't mean their life's over, but it just means that they're not at all in the same place in their life.
	One has probably raised children and run businesses and watched friends die and so on.
	And the other one likes clubbing.
	Whatever, you know, and so the idea that the 25 year old is going to be anywhere close to the life experience of the 75 year old is inconceivable and There's no possible way that somebody who's not mentally damaged in some physical way or has some degenerative disease There's no way some 75 year old can have the same life experience and maturity as a 25 year old So the idea that these people would have anything in common other than I want your money and I want your sex,
	I would consider inconceivable.
	What do you think?
	Well, you've got a lot of good stuff to say.
	But where does the gap narrow?
	What is the age?
	About nine years.
	I think about nine years...
	A nine-year age gap after that, but again, this is not true for everyone, but this is just a statistic that I've read that after about nine years of an age gap, things seem to get pretty hinky in long-term stability for a lot of relationships.
	And does it matter if they met when she was 17 and he was 40, or if she was 40 and he was 90?
	I would assume that the earlier they meet, Then the wider is the gap, right?
	So if it's ten years apart...
	I'm sorry, Mike?
	I got some data real quick.
	If a husband is nine or more years older than his wife, or two or more years younger, the risk of getting a divorce is twice as high of couples who are closer in age.
	Sorry.
	Right, so if a woman is 20 and the man is 30, right, then she's only two-thirds his age.
	So that's a pretty big gap.
	Whereas if he's 70 and she's 60...
	She's six sevenths his age, so to speak, right?
	So it's closer.
	So if there's an age gap, I assume that the younger they are when there's that age gap, the more relevant it's going to be in some ways.
	How old's your daughter now, Stefan?
	Six.
	Okay.
	Let's say she's 16.
	Do you mind if we don't, just for the sake of objectivity, if we just use some one?
	It's not your daughter per se.
	I'm talking about a female, a hypothetical female that's close to your heart.
	How much of an age gap could you tolerate between her age and her first serious suitor?
	Yeah, it's a good question.
	It's a perfectly fair question.
	I would not want that age gap to be considerable because let's say that she's 30 when she starts dating, which, you know, I think is about right.
	No, I'm kidding, right?
	So, I don't know, let's say that she's 18 and whatever, she's a serious boyfriend.
	And, you know, if he's 30, I would consider that kind of gross.
	And I would have quite a bit to say about that, and I would grill that guy until he evaporated.
	And I have no problem being the shotgun-wielding scary dad who's guarding his jewel of a daughter.
	You know, if he's 22 and she's 18, yeah, okay, I think that's sort of reasonable.
	You know, late 20s, mid-late 20s, it's starting to get a little like, why can't you date someone your own age?
	You know, if you're 28 years old and you want to go out with an 18-year-old, it's like, well, why aren't women your own age interested in you?
	Or why aren't you interested in women who are your own age?
	Because if you've got 10 years on someone who's 18...
	There's just a natural dominance to that, right?
	There's a natural...
	You're kind of smarter and wiser without having to be smarter and wiser, just because you're older.
	I see another thing.
	Because I live in this community where this bride procurement service is viable and This big age gap relationship happens and it's usually the men that live here and the females are coming from Thailand or the Philippines.
	A lot of these women are raised by their families.
	To accept this kind of marital union, to be a caretaker who performs predictable feminine roles, you know, housekeeping, sex, beauty conversation.
	Well, and would they raise children, I guess, if the guys can get their creaky old sperm to swim upstream?
	That produces another level of hooked-inness and financial security.
	It's actually tragic.
	No, I mean, there's precious little choice in any of that.
	And whenever choice is diminished, then the possibility of virtue is diminished, as I've sort of argued many times on this show before.
	If you want someone to love you, then they should have as much choice as humanly possible.
	Where their choice is diminished, I wouldn't say necessarily that love is impossible.
	Is it impossible for people who are in an arranged marriage to love each other?
	No, it's not impossible.
	It just means you kind of have to overcome the hurdle of the fact that the relationship is involuntary, as I've sort of argued with parents.
	But if some guy was wanting to date a woman who was 10 years younger, again, I'm not talking like 65 and 55, but, you know, let's say 30 and 20, you'd be like, well, why do you need that level of authority over someone?
	Why do you need to be the in-charge one?
	Why do you need to be the wise one?
	Why do you need to be the one who's probably going to get his way?
	Because it's not a negotiation of equals.
	You've got 10 years on someone, especially when you're younger.
	That's such a significant advantage.
	And you can just always say, look, I'm older, or it can be part of the equation.
	That's somebody who can't negotiate.
	And why can you not find somebody your own age?
	Are you as immature as a 20-year-old?
	Or are you looking for a 20-year-old who's somehow magically as mature as a 30-year-old?
	Why don't you just find someone who's 30?
	I'm sorry.
	I don't think it's that at all.
	I feel that when I've observed these couplings, I feel that there's an aspect to it where they become spellbound by hotness and youth and beauty.
	Oh yeah, absolutely.
	They love that.
	They want to flash freeze it and keep it in a bottle.
	It's captivating.
	And I, as a woman, I haven't been enculturated to seek out beauty, but there was a time in my youth where it was kind of an interesting situation.
	I was at an airport and I saw the cutest guy that I could ever imagine.
	And it left an impression on me, like, oh, if Handsome had a picture in the dictionary, it would be this guy.
	Well, you know, he went his own way.
	I went my way.
	And our paths crossed again.
	And he was walking in the street, and I ran.
	I said, ah, I saw you at the airport.
	My name is Christina.
	I'd love to meet you.
	And...
	We spent some time together, and I realized that my interest in him, I was captivated by how he looked, but his substance didn't resonate with me at all.
	So we ended up spending time together.
	I got a Polaroid picture taken, and that was the extent of the interaction.
	And if beauty is important, I mean, you can flip open any magazine and look at beautiful women and But you can't capture that in a bottle.
	I mean, it's so enhanced.
	But you know that men are attracted to physical beauty because physical beauty are all signs of good, stable, healthy eggs.
	Even features are not distorted by genetic inbreeding.
	The hip-to-waist-to-boob ratio are all indicators of health.
	Lustrous hair, clear eyes, red light, all of these things, pink on the cheeks, they're all signs of And so the physical beauty markers for men are looking for the healthy eggs.
	And that's the deal.
	It's not cultural in particular, because it's all throughout the animal kingdom that the men are looking for the healthiest eggs and the females are looking for the men with the most resources.
	Like there are species of birds where the men built these elaborate nests In order to attract the females.
	And like crazy elaborate nests.
	Like it's just ridiculous.
	And the reason for that is that the males of the species of birds are so successful.
	That they have the time and energy to devote.
	They're so good at hunting that they have the excess time and energy to create these nests.
	So they're showing, look, I have all these excess resources.
	I'm so good at hunting.
	If I have the excess resources to build this nest, I surely will have the excess resources to bring you food.
	While you sit on the eggs of the kids and all that.
	So all of this stuff is, you know, women look for resources and men look for beauty.
	It's not the only thing that goes on, but that's the fundamental biological drivers.
	And so the fact that these men have a lot of resources and these women are willing to come over to get the resources and in return trade their eggs, well, the men have an excess of resources and a deficiency of fertility, and the women have a Sexually and biocompatibility-wise, like a jigsaw piece.
	And that's going to sustain interest between the pair bond, that she's beautiful and fertile and he has...
	No, no, no, no, no.
	But that's the difference between the R and the K reproductive strategy, right?
	The reproductive strategy is, you know, short-term spray and pray.
	And for that, you're really focused on physical markers.
	And all culture that focuses on beauty is driving that reproductive strategy and is being driven by that reproductive strategy.
	All of the...
	A culture that focuses on the quality of the human being is focusing on the K, or the long-term investment reproductive strategy.
	Like, I'm reading these books to Izzy at the moment, my daughter.
	They're called Mallory Towers, M-A-L-O-R-Y. I highly recommend these books to To people with kids.
	I mean, she loves them.
	And the reason I'm reading them to her is that I read them when I was a kid.
	Now, in these books, written by a very sensible British lady named Enid Blyton, who I actually thought was a man for the longest time, but it doesn't really matter.
	In these...
	In these books is constantly constantly reinforced the virtue and value of a sensible Person of a sensible woman of a sensible girl and these books had a huge influence on me when I was a kid and Where there is great beauty in the girls, not always, but often there is great vanity and manipulation and they're ornamental but untrustworthy and can sometimes be dangerous.
	And, you know, they're brushing their golden locks and staring in the mirror and being vain and all that.
	And this, of course, these books, I don't know, they were written in the 50s or 60s or something like that.
	They were certainly, I was reading them when I was in boarding school when I was six or seven or whatever.
	And there is this constant reinforcement of the virtue and value of a sensible, level-headed, kind, even-tempered, strong, brave, virtuous girl and woman.
	And that comes directly out of The K reproductive strategy, which is, yeah, beauty is nice, but, you know, it has its dangers and it's not who you want to settle down with, necessarily.
	It could be, right?
	And that is enormously different from the sort of Bratz dolls things that are going on.
	Where it's all about hotness and attractiveness and all of that sort of stuff.
	The idea that female physical beauty can be dangerous.
	I guess there's Black Widow videos or whatever.
	But for the most part, the idea that You have to be warned against beauty and look for common sense and sensible and strong and good women.
	That is not something that is really focused on as much anymore.
	So I think that there's a lot of cultural stuff where beauty becomes more important when people go more towards the reproductive strategy.
	Character, which is not a word you even hear that much anymore.
	Character and conscience all completely come by the wayside.
	But the idea that you would focus on settling down with someone who may not be as physically beautiful but has a great character, is a strong and virtuous and good person, that is...
	The reproductive strategy that is kind of resented by a lot of men these days, in that women are going for the alphas, as they say, when they're younger and then want to settle down with the beta after they've been used up by all the alphas.
	In other words, they're trying to do the R reproductive strategy when they're young and hot, and then they want to settle down with the K reproductive strategy when they start to hit the wall in terms of aging.
	So, yeah, this to me seems like very much that R reproductive strategy.
	Interesting.
	Well, I never reproduced myself, but to get a little personal, I'm a 46-year-old white female, and I have found myself at this point in my life where the man who's courting me is 65 and old enough to be my father, and it's disturbing to me.
	Why is it disturbing?
	I mean, I get it.
	It's not ideal, but why is it disturbing?
	Um...
	Because, uh...
	I think part of his attraction to me...
	He likes gazing upon me.
	Um...
	You're Stéphane Molyneux, so you've never incarnated as a quote-unquote cute girl, beautiful woman.
	I know at my age, I'm not in my prime, but to some men, I'm still very attractive.
	No, no, sorry to interrupt, but the attraction is not the relevant thing.
	It's the eggs that are relevant things.
	So if you have a man who's your age, right?
	I think you said 46.
	So if you have a man who's 46 and he wants to get married or he wants to have a long-term relationship.
	It's not with me.
	Well, I mean, assuming that he wants kids or assuming he has resources, then he's going to want to go for a younger woman, right?
	I mean, this is the harsh reality.
	I mean, it's not, you know, we may wish it were different, but it's kind of not.
	No, it is.
	And so a man in his 60s who's got resources is going to say, well, you know, I can dip down, you know, 20 years because I have resources or I have quality or whatever, right?
	But a man who's sort of your age who wants to settle down is probably going to want to go for a woman who's younger because just eggs, you know, I mean it comes down to that, right?
	Yeah, it does.
	It does.
	But to me, this whole courting process, it feels like an elder care deal in the works.
	And elder care is something that real human beings need.
	I feel because of my profession and all that, I'm perfectly capable of getting elder care.
	But it's a little bit like a bucket of cold water of reality in the face that If I had been born a male at my age, I could be having perhaps my second family.
	Absolutely.
	And this is the challenge for women in middle age, is that they get to experience what it's like to be a man in his early 20s.
	How is it like a man in his early 20s?
	Because a man in his early 20s is of low sexual value, whereas a woman in her early 20s is of high sexual value.
	But a woman who's middle-aged, like a 46-year-old woman, is of lower sexual value than a 46-year-old man.
	Certainly.
	Certainly.
	But you know, here's something gruesome but real.
	One of the things that I find most attractive about him is that he's gonna die and leave me resources.
	And then I'll be left alone to read books.
	I know it might be terrible, but I'm just telling you...
	No, that's honest.
	I mean, sexual resources is a very honest way of putting it.
	You know, he's got a beautiful house.
	He's a type of guy that took care of his first family.
	He's certainly intending to take care of me.
	When I look at him, there's nothing at all that is sexually titillating.
	Talking to him and communing with him on an intellectual level, emotional and spiritual level, all fine.
	The physical contact, very difficult.
	Very difficult.
	Wait, wait.
	Hang on.
	When you say difficult, do you mean like aesthetically or physically?
	What does that mean?
	Ick.
	Why?
	Because he's not a trim, healthy 65-year-old?
	He's not a healthy 65-year-old.
	It's not the trim part, but it's a lifestyle thing.
	And he just looks self-damaged by lifestyle choices.
	Right, right.
	You know, but he's psychologically healthy.
	You know, there's more good here than bad, otherwise I wouldn't be here.
	But if I understand it rightly, Christine, your mating call goes something like this, right?
	Ah!
	Ah!
	Wait, is that like...
	Ah!
	I mean, is that like...
	Ah!
	He's crossing the desert!
	He's out of water!
	Ah!
	Right?
	I mean, he's going to pop off soon.
	Is that your mating cry?
	I don't know.
	I don't really have a mating cry, but this kind of segues into the third part of my compound sentence of the question.
	This business of outsourcing aspects of our relationship.
	So, you know, one of the things that he liked about me when he first set eyes upon me and talked to me was he thought I was hot.
	And I was not trying to navigate the world as hot, but he thought I was hot.
	Okay, here we are.
	What if I tell him, you know, I've aged since we met and younger women are hotter because we've proved that.
	You know, you said that yourself.
	How about if I take you to Thailand and I'll be there as a support for you, as a debriefer, a companion, and I'm going to send you into the soapy massage places where you can get your, you know, hot dog rubbed No, this won't work.
	Much prettier girls than me.
	It won't work.
	Christina, it won't work.
	Why?
	It won't work.
	Why?
	Because, Christina, if you're not giving him sex, then why wouldn't he just have a friend who he doesn't have to give his house to?
	Oh, he doesn't have to give his house to me either.
	Well, no, but one of the reasons you'd stick around, despite you finding him sexually unappealing, one of the reasons you'd stick around is to get some stuff when he dies, right?
	Unfortunately, it's terrible to admit this, and I hope you never...
	No, no, I appreciate the candor.
	I really do.
	I wish many, many more people were as candid.
	I do.
	If you were in my position, and you had a mate or a suitor, and when you looked at them sleeping in their bed, they looked like a cadaver, I naturally think, okay, should I breathe my precious life force into this person so they can experience phase 12 of sexual excitement?
	Or are they ready to transition into the spiritual recycling bin and they're at the end?
	No, no, but you don't understand.
	If you're not going to have sex with him, then you're a friend and friends don't get houses.
	Well, you know what, Stefan?
	I tried.
	I tried.
	I'm not blaming you.
	I'm just telling you about the dynamics of it.
	No, I know.
	And I understand that having sex with somebody is important for this particular arrangement.
	And I tried.
	But it wasn't like I looked at him and my body throbbed and I said, ah.
	Oh, I lust for you.
	I just knew that, you know, this might be something I need to do.
	And I thought to myself, well, men went to Vietnam, and that wasn't fucking easy.
	And maybe this isn't going to be easy, but this has to happen.
	So I tried, okay?
	Sorry, what has to happen?
	You mean you have to keep this cadaver propped up until you can get resources out of him?
	In a way, I have to keep it entertained.
	That's how it feels right now, yeah.
	But, you know, I have medical training and I understand what it is to observe a nude body and palpate the flesh and look at the signs of health and the signs of decay.
	There's stuff going on here that's a little more on the downslope of life than the upslope.
	You mean that he's kind of falling apart?
	Yeah, he's falling apart.
	He's an old man.
	He's an old man.
	He's not an old man at 65.
	Oh, a 65-year-old that has smoked pot heavily for 50 years?
	And all that smoke getting in your body and infusing your flesh and doing its, you know, business.
	And your flesh is so loose that it hangs like a cloth on a flagpole.
	There's no fairness to it.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm getting this image of you straddling a Nazgul.
	I mean, a ringwraith or something.
	I feel very proud of myself to have tried this.
	Right.
	I mean, is there any blood flow that can make it to his penis at this point?
	Isn't it going like trying to rush hour?
	But I also know that I have to do all this psychological stuff to keep him feeling, you know, like a macho, virile guy.
	Like I call him a silver stallion.
	Or if I have a jar that I can't open, I say, oh, open the jar.
	And he opens it and he feels strong and stuff.
	But my whole heart...
	Aren't you just hoping he has a heart attack when he's opening the jar or something?
	It's kind of comical, but this is it.
	Man.
	Man, oh man.
	Aren't you glad you're not a 46-year-old woman with sour eggs?
	Why didn't you get married when you were younger?
	You know, I wanted to.
	It was very strong in my, you know, list of things I wanted to do, actually at the top of my list.
	And I came from a stable married family.
	My sister married.
	She's in a very stable family with beautiful kids.
	I experienced an adverse life event, not in my 1 to 18 years, but it was shortly after that, that caused a lot of problems in my life.
	I'm sorry, I just missed that.
	What caused this a lot of...
	Well, I had an adverse life event.
	Okay.
	That caused a lot of problems in my life.
	And so I had to sequester myself to deal with that.
	So I didn't put myself out there into the dating scene in my prime.
	But, at the same time, in the outside world, you know, the state of marriage had shifted, there were more and more divorces, and men were not so eager to propose.
	Plus, you know, the old way of proposing was you weren't going to get any sex and intimacy, and that doesn't work so well if 90% of the women are willing to give you sex and intimacy without marriage, and you're the one holding out.
	It kind of works better if the game is all played where all the women say, no sex or intimacy without marriage.
	And I'm sorry to interrupt, but you said that you didn't put yourself out in the dating world in your prime.
	How old were you when you started dating?
	Oh, you know, I dated here and there, and I've had a handful of long-term good relationships.
	You know, I don't know.
	My first long-term relationship was one year, and that was at the age of 19.
	Okay, so you were dating in your prime?
	What are you talking about?
	Yeah, but the men that I dated didn't propose to me or want to navigate into the direction of marriage.
	And the times that I was with a man...
	Wait, but hang on, hang on.
	Why didn't they want to?
	I don't know.
	Really?
	Maybe socially it felt like a trap.
	Maybe they had friends who had gone through bitter divorces and they didn't think marriage was a great idea.
	I don't know.
	Well, hang on, hang on.
	And I'm sorry to interrupt.
	And again, I really appreciate the candor.
	I think, you know, this is incredibly helpful for me, for other men.
	So I really appreciate your candor.
	But did you talk about, I mean, you wanted to get married.
	And I'm not saying you get married to the guy you were dating when you were 19, but somewhere between 19 and 46 or 19 and 40 or whatever, There must have been a guy that you were interested in marrying.
	I mean, you weren't holding out for, you know, smoky bacon flavored Nazgul guy at the moment, right?
	Right.
	And so at some point there was, did you ever talk about marriage with men?
	Did you ever talk about like, I'd like to get married or anything like that?
	I did.
	I did.
	The one man who I truly fell in love with, and all the marital vows, love, honor, respect, I felt all of those things for this man.
	I mean, he did it.
	He did it for me.
	But he was fresh out of a divorce where his child had gotten played in this custody battle, and he was wounded by it.
	Wait, you mean that the...
	That his ex-wife was using the child as, at least according to him, as some sort of cannon fodder for leveraging the divorce?
	No, that's very judgmental against the ex-wife.
	I mean, the divorce courts were biased in a certain way for a whole variety of other reasons.
	Point being, the whole divorce thing harmed him.
	It scarred him.
	And he wasn't ready to go from a scarred divorce situation into another marriage.
	So, We were together for five years, and I was pushing for marriage because I was at that age where, look, this is my last chance.
	I'm in my early 30s.
	If I don't do it now, I've got to do it.
	I couldn't get it done, so I left.
	I moved away, and I said, now my age is this.
	I'm going to have to focus on some kind of career.
	Which is a definite consolation prize for the love and warmth of a family.
	Sorry, hang on.
	So when you said you couldn't get it done, so it wasn't that the guy wasn't ready, because you'd think that five years should be enough to at least take enough of an edge off.
	But you mean he just was not able to...
	I don't know if it was trust.
	I mean, he was not willing to do it, and there was only so much that I was willing to do to persuade and push.
	Otherwise, it would have been grotesque.
	And how long after his divorce did you start dating him?
	Or was it before he was divorced?
	Probably a year.
	Probably one year.
	Oh, so he was divorced for a year or separated for a year when you started dating?
	No, divorced.
	Divorced for a year, okay.
	Yeah, and he had other things that happened.
	His mother had died and all that.
	But he was, I mean, you know, you say the guy is great and all that, but I certainly would have an issue with a man who strung a woman along for five years in her late 20s to early 30s and then didn't marry her.
	That's not nice because, you know, you could have been finding someone else.
	Who would marry you and have kids.
	And you know how I came to terms with the way that my life unfolded?
	Because I feel in a lot of ways, you know, I had all the best intentions at heart.
	Perhaps I ran into the wrong people at the wrong time.
	And it was very painful to come to this conclusion, Stefan.
	But I finally said to myself, some ants get stepped on.
	You know, and think about it.
	When you're walking the sidewalks, there's all these ants doing their job, right?
	Following the pheromone trail, the ants behind them, leading other ants that are behind them.
	And they all have hopes and dreams.
	But as your foot hits the sidewalk, some of them fucking get stamped on.
	Because they're just there and the foot's there.
	And that's how I came to peace with this.
	Otherwise, it could be a great source of bitterness.
	But my challenge is to navigate my life in spite of my disappointments.
	And they have been deep.
	You know, having a lover with loose flesh on a flagpole, because this is the way that the feminine cycle works, it sucks a little bit, you know?
	Sucks a lot, doesn't it?
	You know what?
	Some ants get stepped on.
	And I just have to overcome.
	But that's very passive, right?
	I mean, the ants have no choice.
	But you had choices, right?
	The ants have no choice and I have choices.
	I mean, saying that the world is the world and you're an ant is not...
	that you don't have choices, right?
	You know, we're all ants in a way, and in a way we all have choices, yeah.
	They're both true.
	You said your parents married for a long time.
	What did your parents think of you dating this guy during the time of your declining fertility or potentially declining fertility who wasn't going to commit?
	I mean, wouldn't your dad or your mom step in and say...
	Hello!
	You know, get out!
	You know what?
	My mom and dad, they're wonderful people, but they have their own unique circumstances.
	For example, my mother's mom died when my mom was in her early teens.
	And on some emotional level, and my mom only has had a 7th or 8th grade formal education in Eastern Europe, and on some level, she just said to herself, well, I could figure it out without someone guiding me, so I'm just going to let you go to the ether and figure it out.
	Yeah, but I mean, did she want grandkids?
	Did she want you to get married?
	She got grandkids from my sister.
	Oh, yeah, but from you.
	Truth be known, Stefan, you know, family circumstances balance and unbalanced situations in very unique ways.
	My sister, who did give them grandkids, was a sister that was born with a visual and a hearing handicap.
	Not Helen Keller, but Helen Keller to the 80%.
	And because of her handicap, they had to swarm...
	And if it wasn't for therapy, I wouldn't be able to tell you this.
	They had to swarm in and give her all this attention...
	So that she could thrive in a hearing and sighted world without having to sequester herself to deaf schools and blind schools.
	So my cup became empty because of their focus, based on love, to help her survive and thrive.
	And a lot of the things that I needed from a parent, I ended up working and paying therapists to give me, which I did.
	That's very tough.
	I mean, when that kind of disability strikes in a family, of course, there's a huge tidal wave of resources that, rightly or wrongly, and obviously, necessarily go to your sister.
	Right.
	And she's got beautiful kids.
	She's got a husband that's 10 years younger, which is a real blessing because...
	You know, she's going to need somebody at her side as she ages and women tend to outlive men.
	If he's 10 years younger, she might have a guiding hand.
	I don't know.
	It's kind of a complicated thing.
	There's a lot of love there.
	I kind of got the short end for a variety of reasons, but I'm strong.
	I don't know.
	Now, Christina, you said that your current, I don't know, it's hard to think of a 65-year-old guy as a boyfriend, but your current significant other It says you're hot.
	I mean, were you hot, I assume, when you were in your teens and 20s too, right?
	I was hot, but it wasn't because I enhanced hotness.
	No, no, no.
	I'm not blaming you for being hot.
	I'm just, you know...
	I'm not saying you did.
	But, yes, I was considered attractive.
	I have actually very beautiful eyes.
	That has always been, like, something people have focused on.
	But I never tried to play the hot card as something to advance...
	But you would get a lot of, you got a lot of attention.
	I'm not saying you don't now, but you got a lot of attention.
	I got enough attention.
	But a lot of the attention, honestly, Stefan, you know, when a woman is beautiful, and she doesn't have the guidance, The attention she gets isn't always good.
	It's like you take a diamond and you throw it in the street and, wow, you'll get occasional people saying, wow, what a valuable diamond.
	Let's grab it and put it into a piece of jewelry and other people are just going to be total greed monsters about it.
	And, you know, females are vulnerable that way when they're young, unprotected, and beautiful.
	And so I did get a lot of negative stuff Um, because of my attractiveness and vulnerability that I'm really glad.
	And I, I, I get that and I sympathize with that, but could you be more specific?
	And this is, you know, words of wisdom for, for younger women.
	You know, I mean, there's, there's things that could be really helpful and so much of what you're saying is really illuminating.
	And again, I appreciate that.
	But could you be more specific about, you know, the analogy is, I get it, right, the diamond, but more specifically, what were the negative things that you received out of your physical attractiveness?
	Well...
	When you're younger, you're a human being, and you have needs like any other human being.
	One simple example is, I'm a 22-year-old female with beautiful eyes, and I need help moving, so I need somebody to help me carry furniture.
	You're a friendly guy that I know, I'll cook you a meal, come over on Tuesday with my other friends, and we'll carry furniture.
	Okay, that's reasonable, right?
	But what if the guy says, well, I carried your furniture and now, you know, you should sleep with me?
	Like that openly?
	Not in one step, but yeah.
	Or any, you know, any number of things like, oh, I've been married, I'm still married, but my wife isn't as pretty as she used to be and you're so hot.
	Well, okay, let's go back to the moving thing, right?
	Yeah.
	Did you not know that a guy would help you move because he found you sexually attractive?
	No, I thought that he would want to help me move because he was a good human being.
	Did you notice that there were a lot of girls who would want to help you move as well?
	I wouldn't have asked girls because furniture is heavy and guys have bigger bodies.
	Right, okay.
	Do you think that men offer resources to pretty girls without noticing that they're pretty girls?
	No, I think they always notice that they're pretty girls.
	However, Stefan, I think that there's a higher conscious human being, man or woman, that will offer resources or help because somebody is deserving and not just because they're pretty.
	Well, but did you notice that outside of moving, there would be lots of opportunities where women or girls could have offered you resources?
	Did that happen as often as the men offering you resources?
	I'm not able to track back into my mind.
	When I sensed that men wanted to help me because they wanted to sleep with me, it was upsetting to me as a young, attractive girl.
	Why?
	It was upsetting to me because I wanted to be...
	Helped, were befriended, were spoken to or talked to because of who I was and not just planting a seed in my womb.
	No, no, no, I get that.
	I understand that.
	But there are lots and lots of people out in the world you can be friends with, right?
	But young men who are in their sexual prime and you being a very attractive young woman, that's not where the friendship is going to form, right?
	If we believe that, I think there are...
	No, no, that's not...
	Let me tell you.
	Okay, this is for the ladies out there.
	A young man...
	If you're an attractive young woman, a young man wants to help you move things because he wants to sleep with you.
	I just need to get this out there.
	I hear you loud and clear.
	A young man will offer to pick up your mail because he wants to sleep with you.
	And a young man will walk you home.
	I'm not saying that this gives a man a right to do anything.
	Of course not.
	I'm just saying that's The desire, right?
	And a young man who offers you favors when you are an attractive young woman is doing that because he wants to sleep with you.
	Doesn't mean he's going to, doesn't mean he has any right to do anything, but that's why he's doing it.
	Now, and a young woman who wants to do it probably wants to sleep with you too.
	But anyway, another story.
	But the idea that, and I got to tell you this, I don't know if this is real naivety or not.
	Like if you just said, like if this was just annoying to men, where it's like, hey, all these men come over and do me favors because I'm a hot young thing.
	But I'm sure it's just because they want to be my friend.
	I mean, did you really think that?
	Stefan, I think you're wrong in this area.
	And I've heard other callers call in.
	I don't think we're so bound to our programming.
	I'd like to give you two examples, if I may.
	Can I do that?
	Number one, I have a friend who's been a great earner, a working man.
	He's amassed some money, not huge amounts.
	He's a good, good guy.
	And he was living in a city and a crime situation happened in his neighborhood where he stumbled upon a woman who was extremely vulnerable.
	She was not attractive.
	She was just a simply vulnerable woman and he pretty much rescued her.
	And they never had a sexual relationship.
	He ended up doing everything that a person could do to save another human being without any agenda to plant a seed or to receive any sexual gratification.
	It was just to save this woman.
	That's number one.
	That's one example.
	Okay, but a man's desire to protect women is baked into the DNA. But he wasn't getting any reward except...
	No, I didn't say in order to have sex, but a man's desire to protect...
	This is just baked into DNA. Simply, and I'm not going to...
	I want to get to your second point, so I'll just do this really briefly.
	But even if the woman is not of sexual reproduction age, her value...
	In terms of eggs, eggs are just much more valuable than sperm, which is why men go to war and women stay home, which is why men can die by the millions in movies and nobody bats an eyelid, but if some woman stubs her toe, everyone gasps and showers their shocked laps with popcorn.
	And so the calculus is pretty similar.
	Like there's one egg and there's 10 million sperm.
	And so eggs must be guarded.
	And women, you don't sort of sit there and figure out how exactly old the woman is before you go and help her out or whatever.
	Or maybe she's got a hot daughter.
	I don't know, right?
	But that is still a sexual dynamic that men will rush in to protect.
	I think it's an instinct that is not particularly healthy in men in the modern world because I think equality is still important, but that is the reality of where things are.
	So that's not necessarily sexual, of course, right?
	But nonetheless, it comes out of that dynamic of eggs being rare and sperm being common.
	So that doesn't invalidate your whole point, but if you can get to the second one, I'd like to hear that, Tim.
	That's a great theory and I can see how you came up with that.
	I don't think that was the playing factor in this situation.
	I think it was a completely different dynamic in this situation.
	It didn't have to do with the eggs and sperm.
	Point being, they're still connected, and he's still helping her, and they've evolved some sort of relationship which is transcendent to this sperm-egg dynamic.
	So it's completely possible that there's more to male and female interaction than sperm-egg reproduction, which I think distills it and simplifies it to ways that miss out on so many other nuances.
	I'm not saying that men and women can never be friends.
	I'm not saying that at all.
	But let me ask you a couple of questions about this relationship.
	What's the age disparity?
	I believe it's less than 10 years.
	I believe she's a little bit younger than him.
	But because of the wear and tear of her history, she looks older.
	And how old was she when he saved her?
	She may have been in her early 40s.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So, yeah, there's a chivalry that's definitely there.
	And, you know, men give up their seats for older ladies on the subway and so on.
	So, yeah, that's, you know, kindness and chivalry occurs.
	You don't often see, of course, the reverse happening.
	So, I'm not saying that they can't be positive and friendly places.
	I don't know.
	Maybe that sucks.
	Maybe that sucks.
	I mean, maybe I need to go out and...
	Love and care for a homeless man.
	I'm not saying this in jest.
	I mean, maybe it's true.
	But you, hang on.
	Look, you do have to see this irony, Christina, that you're upset with me for talking about men wanting to have sex with attractive young women, but why are you with the 65-year-old guy?
	Because he's got resources.
	That's not the only factor.
	No, but I'm telling you, it's probably the deciding factor.
	In other words, if he didn't have any resources, would you be with him?
	If I had resources?
	No, if he didn't have any, if he was broke.
	Well, Stefan, if I had resources and he didn't have resources and I simply found him interesting, yes, I would be with him.
	If I didn't have resources and he had resources, the resources would factor into my association.
	But you need resources to survive, right?
	Right.
	You need food.
	Yeah, no.
	What I mean is that if this guy was exactly...
	He didn't have a beautiful house, didn't have any money, just was just scraping by.
	You know, maybe you could go out to McDonald's once a week or whatever, and he was living in some basement room or something.
	Right.
	Would you be going out with him?
	If I had a nice house...
	Or not even nice.
	If I had...
	No, no, no.
	Not if.
	Current situation, but he doesn't have any resources.
	Exactly the same as everything else.
	He just doesn't have...
	Stefan, I challenge you on this.
	Because there have been times where I have had resources.
	My shelter, my transportation, and my money were all taken care of.
	I went out with a guy who had nothing.
	I had to pick him up to go on a date.
	And you know where he took me?
	He took me to the Salvation Army lunch on a date.
	And I went for the experience of it because I didn't want to experience men only for wanting their resources.
	Right?
	Right.
	And when was this?
	Oh, maybe eight years ago.
	All right.
	And how long did that relationship last?
	It lasted, you know...
	Don't lose your honesty now.
	Come on, let's be frank with each other.
	I'm not losing my honesty.
	I'm not losing my honesty.
	Okay.
	So how long did that relationship last?
	Oh, years.
	Years we knew each other.
	No, no, no, no.
	The romantic relationship.
	The dating.
	That was the only date we went on.
	Stefan, you're wrong on this.
	Empirically, I'm batting a thousand.
	It's not all about resources.
	If women have all their resource stuff...
	No, I didn't say it was all about resources.
	I'm not saying that you find this guy jab at the hut emotionally and physically and he's evil, but he's got a nice house.
	I'm not saying it's only about resources.
	It's not.
	I'm saying that in this situation, I think it would be a deciding factor.
	Yeah, because...
	And it would be weird if it wasn't.
	I'm not blaming you for it, in the same way that for a lot of guys, egg quality is a deciding factor, right?
	I mean, it's just the way that...
	It's why we're all alive, that we have these preferences.
	I'd like to see you evolve past some of these lockdown ideas of yours.
	No, no, this is biology.
	This is not my particular prejudice.
	This is biology.
	But that all changes when the population becomes saturated, when people don't actually want to have kids.
	No, listen to yourself.
	You're going to hear this when you listen back to this conversation.
	You want me to evolve past these things, but you're circling a guy who's got a nice house.
	Why do you want me to evolve past these things?
	Because I believe that you believe that the only reason a woman would be interested in a man is because of his resources, and it's not.
	Okay, listen.
	I've got to say this for the third time.
	It's not the only reason.
	A primary reason.
	It's not the only reason.
	You have to repeat that back to me, because if you say it again, my head's going to explode.
	It's not the only reason.
	A primary reason.
	It is a primary reason.
	A biological reason.
	I believe that the whole resource attraction has to do with women being of fertile age, desiring to have children and truly needing a man to provide resources while she nurtures that infant.
	Once a woman is past that age, I'm 46.
	I'm not going to be nurturing an infant.
	My attraction is not...
	No, it's the same thing.
	Oh my god.
	Don't you see it?
	You're going to be nurturing an old infant, a 65-year-old guy who's going to be declining and then you get his house.
	So instead of getting money because you raised someone's kid, you're getting money because you're shepherding them into the great beyond.
	Maybe if we don't have a big fight before that happens.
	But it's the same thing.
	You're still providing caretaking in return for resources.
	It's just not a kid.
	It's a corpse.
	And someone that does that should get rewarded.
	I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it.
	I'm not judging you.
	I've never said you're a bad person for doing it.
	I'm just saying that don't tell me to evolve between things that you're doing.
	No, no, no.
	I think we're miscommunicating a little bit and we might have to work this out on another day.
	Sure, no problem.
	No problem at all.
	And I've really, really enjoyed the conversation.
	I didn't call it to mislead you or lie to myself or you at all.
	No, on the contrary, you've been fantastically honest.
	Yeah.
	Anyway.
	And I hugely appreciate it.
	All right.
	Well, listen, will you keep us posted?
	I really want to know how this works out for you.
	Sure.
	I really appreciate that.
	And thank you so much for your call, Christina.
	It was really, really great.
	I don't mean that in any negative or cynical way.
	Really, really fantastic.
	I appreciate it.
	All right, Stefan.
	You take care.
	Thanks, man.
	Bye now.
	You up for another call, Steph?
	What have we got?
	I don't know.
	Let's see.
	I think I'm out of my higher register completely.
	All right.
	Well, Matthew would be up next.
	Matthew number two of the show.
	He wrote in and said, Ever since I was young, I have had an irrational fear that everyone else is cocky, mean, and won't like me.
	Why am I terrified of people before I get to know them?
	Hi, Steph.
	Hi.
	Listen, if we're going to do a standing start, I can't do it.
	Like, so you have to, um, you have to have some answers or at least some inklings of an answer.
	Otherwise we'll have to reschedule this.
	Okay.
	Um, so tell me, tell me what you think.
	Well, I was trying to go through that tonight, and honestly, I didn't come up with anything substantial, so I totally understand if you'd rather...
	Well, wait, did you come up with anything less than substantial?
	Anything at all?
	Well, I guess, you know, some of the theories that I had was...
	As a child, I didn't have much of a relationship with my parents.
	Generally speaking, I had this fear of older people, especially teenagers and older when I was younger.
	I assumed it had to do with something about the fact that, you know, that I didn't have this relationship with my parents and therefore, you know, the idea of older people kind of frightened me, I guess.
	I'm not sure, to be honest.
	Like I said, I didn't come up with anything that I thought was really, you know, a good connection or anything like that.
	All right.
	So let's start with the basics.
	So you've got an AdFirst Childhood Experience score of five, right?
	Right.
	So, one of these is household member depressed, mentally ill, or suicide attempt.
	Yes.
	Could you tell me a little bit about that?
	Yeah, so, both my mother and my father suffer from depression.
	My mom is significantly worse than my father.
	There was a period from when I was six until I was about nine that my mom was...
	She was so depressed that she actually didn't get out of bed for about three years.
	Wow.
	Wait, okay, that...
	Oh, man.
	Three years?
	Yeah, and I apologize.
	I mean, she went to the washroom, obviously.
	She had moved enough so that she didn't get, like, bed sores and stuff, right?
	But three years.
	Yeah.
	God, I'm so sorry, Matthew.
	That's terrible.
	I mean, that happened to my mom, not for three years.
	But, I mean, it's terrifying.
	Yeah.
	And I apologize.
	This is just something that's hard for me to talk about.
	Sorry, what were you apologizing for?
	Just...
	It's hard for me to talk about this.
	Don't apologize.
	It's like going to a doctor and apologizing for describing symptoms.
	We want an honest conversation.
	Please don't ever apologize for being honest with me.
	I'm only annoyed if you're not.
	I appreciate that.
	Do you know what precipitated this?
	Well, from my understanding of it, and it's a little bit murky, but it's hard to get straight answers out of her.
	The timeline that I have is, when I was six, my mother and father called me and my sister, who was two years older than me, into our living room, and she essentially said that she needed a break.
	At the time I assumed it was from me and my sister, but now obviously I've learned that she needed a break from my father, because obviously they Eventually ended up getting divorced.
	So she went to visit family in Maine.
	To make a long story short, she was on the beach picking up rocks to bring back because her and I, when I was a kid, we used to pick up these rocks that were kind of smoothed out by the ocean, and I used to really love those.
	And she went to pick one up Ended up, I guess, dislocating two discs in her neck and getting really hurt and this, you know, kind of snowballed, you know, the symptoms of the pain and her previous depression just kind of got worse and worse to the point where she just ended up basically living in bed and, you know, you mentioned the bathroom.
	She actually had a bathroom in her bedroom, so The only times I'd really see her is when I would go in there and say, you know, oh, do you want anything to eat, anything to drink?
	And that was basically it.
	So she was picking up a rock?
	A stone?
	That's, you know, it was a sizable rock, but to be honest, I mean, I'm not sure how exactly picking up a stone leads to that kind of damage to your neck, but...
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that...
	I don't know.
	It's hard to get facts.
	It's hard to get facts out of family, right?
	Right.
	And people, if it's not true, right, if there's something else, people will tell themselves something so often that it sort of feels true to them.
	Anyway.
	Right.
	All right.
	And so how...
	Did I get this right?
	You were nine when she took to bed?
	I was...
	No, I was six when she took to bed, and then I was nine when she eventually got out.
	Did your dad engage any advice, therapists, mental health resources?
	I did go see a therapist at that time.
	No, I meant for your mom first.
	Oh, for my mom.
	She was under the care of at least one therapist.
	She's been to many therapists over the years.
	She still goes to, I think, one or two at this point.
	She's heavily medicated for the depression and for her pain, which, you know, obviously completely changes her personality.
	It makes it hard to kind of really connect with her.
	Right.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, I mean, that's pretty extreme, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, number eight, lived with an alcoholic or drug user?
	Yeah.
	So, in that one, I was classifying my mother as a drug user.
	I wasn't sure if it meant explicitly illegal street drugs or...
	I mean, she was on...
	No, that's fine.
	That's fine.
	But there was no alcoholism, right?
	No.
	Okay.
	And how old were you when your parents divorced?
	I was 12.
	All right.
	And neglect, not enough food, dirty clothes, no protection or medical treatment or things along those lines?
	No.
	Sorry, I may have misunderstood that one as well.
	It was more along the lines of, so my father was working all the time and my mom was in bed for those three years of my childhood and it really felt like me and my sister were kind of just in it alone.
	Why was your father working all the time?
	Well, at the time it was, he explained it as he wanted to provide for me and my mom and my family and Hang on.
	Were you living in a car?
	I don't assume so.
	No.
	He obviously knew that there was a completely non-functioning parent in the house, right?
	Right.
	Looking back on it and based on our conversations that we've had now, he worked so much because he wanted to avoid having any kind of real Any kind of real emotional connection with me and my sister and my mother.
	Yeah, he was running away from a very difficult situation for him, right?
	Right.
	Which was his responsibility because he chose to have kids with the woman who then took to bed.
	And so he knew that you guys needed him infinitely more than ever, right?
	Right.
	And he's like, nope, going to work.
	Exactly.
	And then, and then, he's got the nerve to tell you it was only for the money.
	Right.
	Yeah, I mean, I gotta tell you, might be my prejudice, but...
	People who say, well, I went to provide, you know, and it's like, but did you ask the kids?
	Did you say to the kids, listen, we can, you know, maybe we have to go live in an apartment rather than a house, or maybe I have to get a less expensive car, or maybe I have to take the bus.
	Would you be willing to live in a smaller place if it meant having me home nights and weekends, or do you want to keep living here and have no fucking parents at all?
	Right.
	And he never asked you that, right?
	No.
	Right.
	It wasn't until...
	Probably this past year when I started really kind of listening to you that I had any kind of real, honest, you know, emotional relationship with either of my parents.
	And since then, I've made it clear to him that I would trade all the material stuff if I could go back for time with him and time with my mom as a kid.
	Of course.
	Of course.
	Absolutely.
	You know, I'm struggling to have empathy.
	I feel like I'm going, ah!
	But, you know, I can deal with anyone who's honest, right?
	I mean, if your dad said, look, I buried myself in work because it was too agonizing to be home and you guys suffered for it.
	Right.
	You know, but as opposed to, well, I had to keep a roof over our heads, you know, just that stuff is, ugh, anyway.
	Anyway, it's neither here nor there.
	No, I agree.
	So no family love or support, that's what you felt?
	Right.
	Right.
	Cocky, mean, and won't like me.
	Yeah.
	So you had to hide your home situation at school and elsewhere, right?
	Yes.
	I know that.
	You gotta go and pretend like you're home.
	And there's a home to go to, and there's people in the home who care about you, and you have to hide dysfunction.
	I don't know why that's such a universal instinct.
	I have some theories, which I don't want to bore you with right now, but you have to hide the dysfunction in the family home, particularly neglect, because you feel worthless.
	Right.
	Like, Mom can't even be asked to get out of bed for me.
	And that's not the reality of the situation, but nonetheless, that's...
	It's what I felt.
	I don't want to give you my feelings as your feelings.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	I have a lot of memories of just completely blaming myself and saying, if she wasn't going to pick up this stupid rock for me, then maybe this wouldn't have happened.
	Or maybe, you know, things could have been different and it was, it just fucked with my head.
	I mean, it really, it really just, yeah, it messed with me.
	Yeah.
	Well, and of course, in the absence of explanations, children blame themselves, right?
	Right.
	Because the idea that there's chaos and madness and catatonic depression in the house, that's too terrifying.
	So in the absence of clear and cogent explanations, children create a religion of self-blame.
	Right.
	Right.
	Which is why people say, well, we withheld things from the kid because, you know, it's like, that's disastrous.
	Yeah.
	So...
	Alright, so, I mean, I'm sorry for this mess and what a mess it was, right?
	What happened after your parents divorced?
	Who did you stay with?
	Was it six, one, half a dozen or the other?
	Or how did that work?
	Well, the story gets even more dysfunctional, if that's even possible.
	So, after my parents divorced, I lived with my mother for about a year because there was a long period of time from, you know, basically when I was around nine, like when she got out of bed until around 13 or 14, where I really disliked my father.
	Part of that was because she kind of, you know...
	Wait, wait, hang on.
	Sorry.
	Oh, sorry.
	You said you disliked your father and then you said because she and I just want to make sure we got the genders right.
	Okay, sorry.
	Because your mom was poisoning you against your dad?
	Essentially, yes.
	And what was she saying?
	She would just, you know, she would frame him as like, you know, Just not understanding of, you know, what she was going through and, you know, how can he expect me to keep the house clean when I get home because, you know, he has no idea what I'm going through right now mentally and, oh, this is just so unfair.
	How does he treat me like this?
	You know, things like that.
	Or she would, you know, talk about how Sorry, I lost my train of thought.
	Essentially, she just would say things like, you know, how can you expect me to do anything when, you know, look at what I'm going through or, you know, look at the past few years.
	I mean, I just got out of bed, like things like that.
	And did she get a job after the divorce?
	She actually now, she does have two jobs, both, you know, entry level, like jobs that high school kids should have.
	Wait.
	We kind of skipped a little bit of time there, right?
	Right.
	Because I said after the divorce and you said now.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	So, no.
	After the divorce, what happened was...
	First, they were separated, I guess, when I was 12.
	And then it might have taken them a while to actually be legally divorced.
	But, I mean, she was and still is mostly living off his money.
	Right, so she basically was taking his money to live.
	Right.
	And bitching about him.
	Right.
	That's just lovely.
	Yeah.
	That's just lovely.
	So, do you know who initiated the divorce?
	I believe it was my father.
	In fact, I'm certain it was.
	I'm sorry.
	It was him.
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	Right.
	Given that his wife had been non-functional for a couple of years, it can't have been a huge shock to her, right?
	No.
	It wasn't a huge shock.
	To me, based on the conversations that I've had with them now, it never really worked.
	It was always basically a pattern of my father just taking care of her.
	There was always something.
	Right.
	And I assume like most people who want other people to take care of them, she gets pretty passive-aggressive about those people too, right?
	Like nothing they do is ever right, it's never good enough and all that, right?
	Right.
	Or, you know, she'll use guilt to get them to, you know, take care of her even after she treats them like shit.
	Right.
	Right.
	Piece of work is the phrase that comes to mind.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	So I'm sorry.
	Now, when you say, sorry, go ahead.
	I was just going to say, did you want me to go more into the living situation?
	I know that was your original question, or did you want to move on to something?
	Whatever you feel is relevant and important.
	I think it is, you know, I'll keep it brief just because I think it's a big part of my life, this specific year that I lived with my mom, so I'll keep it as brief as possible.
	Yeah.
	So after they separated when I was 12, like I said, I didn't really like my father, so I stayed with my mom.
	And during this time, she took up smoking cigarettes.
	And as is a pattern with me and her, I had to basically be the parent.
	So I would constantly tell her, you know, you shouldn't be smoking, it's so bad for you, you'll get cancer, blah, blah, blah.
	So one day I see, you know, puffs of smoke coming out from the backyard.
	I go out to tell her, you know, like I always do, this is bad, you really should stop this.
	And she turns around and basically explains, you know, this isn't a cigarette.
	It turned out to be a joint.
	And she offered me some.
	And you were how old?
	I was 12.
	God!
	God!
	I'm so sorry.
	Oh, Matthew.
	And...
	So this, like I said, to keep a long story short, this led to that year that I was living with her.
	She would pay for it with my father's money.
	She would buy weed for me and allow me to smoke it in the house whenever I wanted to.
	And so I started smoking every day, basically all day.
	At that age, 12.
	And what was that like?
	I've never tried pot, but what was it like for you to smoke that?
	It made everything more interesting.
	It made everything better, I guess.
	You know, it made food taste better.
	It made music sound better.
	And, you know, obviously, Now that I look back on it with some kind of self-knowledge, it obviously helped me kind of escape from, you know, the shit that was going on around me.
	Well, kinda, but it also added a lot to the shit that was going on around you, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	Now, has your mother admitted to, understands that she was a criminal?
	So, you know.
	And just for those, like, yes, I am for pot legalization, but I'm not for supplying pot to 12-year-olds.
	Yeah.
	So, like, just to the people who like marijuana, I'm not, oh, she was a criminal because she's supplying pot to a 12-year-old child.
	Right.
	And in a rational, healthy, sane society, that is really bad.
	Right.
	So, you know.
	In present day, her and I have had these conversations because I realize that if there's any hope of us having any kind of relationship, this stuff needs to be discussed.
	But as is always or seemingly always the case, this one thing she can't seem to recall.
	She has allegedly no recollection of doing that at all.
	And does she have recollections of other things related to that time?
	I mean, from what I understand, that time is kind of murky in her memory because at the same time, As this was going on, she had even more problems with pain, so they were putting her on morphine and fentanyl and oxycodone and all this just crazy stuff all day, every day.
	And I know as someone who has gone through abuse with that as well, it definitely affects memory.
	But at the same time...
	Did she understand at the time that she was not having good judgment and that maybe she was not fit to be taking care of a child?
	At the time she was doing this?
	Yeah.
	I mean, it didn't seem to me like she understood.
	To me, it seemed like...
	Maybe she didn't want to give up the child support money.
	Right.
	But sorry, you were about to say...
	No, I was just going to say, it seemed to me like, you know, we had this kind of relationship of, you know, she was essentially more of a friend than a mom, like that kind of relationship.
	Friend?
	Yeah, I'm not using that term.
	I don't mean that term as in she's an actor.
	I hope my daughter when she's 12 doesn't have friends who buy her pot.
	No, no.
	I'm sorry.
	I don't mean to...
	No, you know what?
	I just had this interview with Gabor Mate.
	Work in the empathy muscle.
	Let's just...
	I'm going to assume that your mom had a pretty rough time of it as a kid.
	Right.
	Is that...
	Do you know much about your mom's childhood?
	Um...
	I know some, and what I do know is she was raised in an extremely incredibly strictly religious household to parents who, you know, the type of Christians who would say that me and my sister were going to hell because my father was Jewish and we weren't all Christians.
	That kind of Wait, didn't they make a vow before God to stay together forever?
	To my grandparents?
	No, your parents.
	I'd assume so, yeah.
	Right.
	Okay.
	You know, I just wanted to mention that.
	I forgot to mention that, but the first Matthew, whose parents had a problem with biblical commandments against homosexuality, but then got divorced.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	No, I meant that.
	Sorry, I meant that with the first Matthew.
	So your grandparents were very religious, and that's where your mom was raised?
	Yes, so she was raised in a very strictly religious household.
	Also, my grandmother was a pretty extreme hoarder as well.
	Lots of signs of dysfunction there as well.
	Okay.
	Do you know if she was physical punishment?
	I know in very religious or fundamentalist households, physical punishment is more common.
	I do not believe that she was spanked, no.
	Really?
	Yeah, which I was surprised about.
	Right.
	Maybe the hoarder couldn't find the paddle.
	Anyway, maybe.
	All right.
	Is there anything else you wanted to add?
	Did your dad know about this pot stuff?
	No.
	So he was living, you know, in a different house at the time, you know, once they got separated, obviously.
	So he didn't know.
	No, but does he know now?
	Yes, he does.
	What does he think?
	I mean, he thinks it's incredibly not...
	I mean, irresponsible, illegal, terrible.
	I mean, those words don't even begin to describe what...
	Did he not know that you were stoned a lot of the time?
	It didn't seem like he did.
	I mean, I didn't see him that much during that period.
	And then after that year when I realized, like, holy shit, this is incredibly wrong and unhealthy for me to live in a scenario like this, I stopped smoking completely.
	Good for you.
	Right.
	Did you have any paranoia on pot?
	No, I never really got any kind of negative effects from it.
	Like I said, at the time, aside from the way I was getting it, it seemed to kind of enhance almost everything.
	It didn't really do anything negative for me.
	Why are you terrified of people before you get to know them?
	How do you know that's your feeling?
	I mean, could that not be your mom's feeling?
	I mean, that's pretty...
	I would assume that there's some elements of social anxiety in someone who stays in bed for three years.
	Agoraphobia or...
	Right, you know, it seems stupid to me now, but when you say that, she did have, you know, a long history of essentially telling me when I was a kid that Basically, everyone else was stupid.
	She had this favorite shirt of hers that said something along the lines of, like, I like you, so I'll kill you last.
	Her attitude towards society and other people as a whole was pretty negative.
	Yeah, like, kill them all, let God sort them out kind of thing, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	I like you, so I'll kill you last.
	Yeah, that was her favorite shirt when I was a kid.
	I remember that now.
	People are like terrifyingly honest.
	All you got to do is listen.
	Right.
	And that...
	Oh, sorry.
	No, go ahead.
	No, I was just going to say, obviously this is a long call, so if I start going off on tangents, just let me know.
	But a lot of this stuff, like I said at the beginning, it's hard for me to kind of work through and to connect the dots.
	So I appreciate you taking the time to help me out.
	Sure.
	Wait, were you about to say something else?
	I don't want to interrupt you.
	Oh, no.
	No, that was it.
	Okay, so why are you terrified people before you get to know them?
	So to me, fear of other people arises from two main causes.
	The first is that people around you are scary.
	I mean, I know that that sounds kind of true.
	Why am I scared of people?
	Because they're scary, right?
	But when you were growing up, your caregivers were scary.
	I mean, your mom's favorite t-shirt is, I like you, so I'll kill you last.
	I mean, that's the sentiment of a serial killer.
	And it's kind of fucked up in so many ways because I'd actually rather be killed first.
	Thank you very much.
	I don't want to let you kill everyone else, right?
	Right.
	So your mom is kind of terrifying, right?
	I don't want to, again, I don't want to, terrifying, right?
	Like, you have to agree with me.
	I mean, if she's your mom, maybe I'm incorrect about that.
	No, on some level, it's hard for me to say she's terrifying.
	But on the other hand, it's like, if I look at this objectively, I mean, she is, you know.
	Treating a kid like this, I mean, you know, supplying them...
	Well, she's abandoning motherhood.
	Not only is she abandoning motherhood, it would have been easier if she had run away.
	Right.
	Right?
	Because having a depressed cripple in the house is more work than not having someone in the house at all, right?
	Right.
	So not only did she abandon motherhood, but she became an actual impediment to parenting, right?
	Right.
	Because your dad still had to pay for her and her food and her medicine and her therapy, and so he had to work even more.
	So rather than abandoning motherhood, she became an active impediment to you guys getting parenting.
	Again, correct me wherever I'm wrong.
	That's just what I'm thinking.
	No, I never even made that connection about the working even more.
	Yeah, can't you just go join a nunnery or some hippie farm or something?
	Go pick grapes in Queensland, Australia.
	Go do something so at least we're not having a...
	Bed wash your ass, right?
	Anyway.
	Right.
	So that is incredibly, it strikes me as incredibly passive-aggressive.
	If you don't want to be a mom, I mean, I think that's really bad.
	You had kids, and then you're like, I don't, and then go!
	Go!
	Don't be a ghost in the bed that consumes resources.
	Anyway, that's just my thought.
	And then, you know, she's got these t-shirts of I love you, so I like you, so I'll kill you last.
	It's pretty homicidal.
	And then she's like, hey, mom's got such great judgment that she'll give me part.
	Right.
	Regularly, daily, right?
	Yeah.
	That's terrifying.
	That's such appallingly terrible judgment.
	Yeah.
	And it's bad for you.
	Your lungs are still developing.
	Your brain is still developing.
	You should not have marijuana.
	Right.
	Right?
	She's poisoning you.
	Yeah.
	Seems scary to me.
	Yeah, it really does.
	And you had to stop it.
	Did she ever drive while stoned?
	Um...
	You know, she didn't really smoke too often, but, you know, she drove while on tons of opiates, so...
	Against doctor's orders?
	I assume so, right?
	Didn't they say don't drive her up heavy machinery?
	Um...
	I believe it says, you know, you're not supposed to until you kind of get used to the medication.
	I believe that's what the doctor said.
	But, you know, to be honest, I'm not sure about that.
	No, okay.
	Yeah, no, it's...
	Sorry, I never even...
	I never even really thought about it as...
	That she didn't want to...
	Sorry.
	You didn't want to what?
	I never really thought about it as she didn't want to be a mom.
	What are you feeling now?
	It hurts.
	I think that To think that...
	Don't try and compose yourself.
	Just speak from the heart.
	That's what we're here for.
	Right.
	It just hurts to think that she, you know, clearly didn't want to be mom.
	And that would rather have been in bed than that.
	With me and my sister I It's just so fucked up Because why even bother?
	I mean, why bother having kids if you're just gonna abandon them or drug them?
	Right.
	Why do you think she had kids?
	Honestly, I don't even know.
	Thank you.
	Maybe because it's two more people that are obligated to take care of it.
	Yeah.
	I think you're onto something.
	I think a lot of people have kids because they think the kids are going to give them something.
	They're gonna provide something emotional, sustenance, attention.
	And then they don't realize that that's not why you have kids.
	You can't have kids for that reason.
	and you kind of have kids because of what they're going to give you.
	Because it's your job to provide for them.
	you It's your job to give to them.
	It's the children who need.
	They're not there like little port-a-juices that you could drink from, like their blood or something.
	I mean, they're there for you to feed, not to eat.
	And then when parents get that, I think it's kind of depressing sometimes.
	Like...
	If they have these unmet emotional needs from childhood and they're like, oh, I don't have kids and those kids will fill me up.
	They'll make me better.
	Deal with the past.
	And then the kids need and need and need and they run out.
	Because they were hoping that, you know, It's like I'm being chased by the mafia and I'm going to go to someone's house who's going to lend me $10,000 to pay off the mafia so I don't get my legs broken.
	I go to that person's house and they say, hey man, can you lend me $10,000?
	The mafia's after me.
	me, I'm like, oh shit, I'm in a Seth Rogen movie.
	And I think Emotionally, like I'm trying not to project my thoughts or experiences, but I think emotionally, Matthew, maybe for you, is this incredible invisibility.
	This incredible invisibility.
	Where your needs, your preferences, I've not heard a single indication of your needs and preferences having...
	Any blip on anyone's radar at any time in the entire time period you're talking about.
	Nobody's saying, what does Matthew want?
	What does Matthew need?
	What's best for Matthew?
	Matthew, tell us.
	I mean, mom, don't smoke.
	Who ends up smoking?
	I do.
	You do.
	More than her, right?
	Right.
	Good job, mom.
	When it's more dangerous, much more dangerous for you than for her.
	So your needs as a child, which should be first and foremost in everyone's mind.
	Every now and then, and it's not common, but every now and then I have some work to do when I'm with my daughter.
	Once or twice a month.
	And it's not long.
	It's not like hours and hours.
	But something needs to be done.
	But outside of that, it's...
	What do you want to do?
	I'm willing to go shed and find something we both want to do.
	But her needs...
	That's my job.
	Not to like, emptily satisfy all her needs and have no needs of my own.
	That would not be my job either.
	Wouldn't be healthy for her either.
	But her needs, her preferences, that's...
	The deal, that's the gig.
	That's what you do.
	Right.
	And I can't...
	Can you think of a time when your needs and your preferences were even asked for, let alone acted on?
	I can't even remember a time during that period where I thought about my own needs, let alone someone else asked me about.
	Yeah.
	Number one, it'd be nice if mom could achieve a vertical.
	Be nice if dad was home.
	Be nice if we weren't fucking wolf children in the middle of a city.
	Trying to raise ourselves.
	I mean, who was around when your dad was working and your mom was in bed?
	It was just me and my sister.
	Right.
	Is she younger?
	No, my sister, she's two years older than I was.
	She's 11 and you're 9?
	Well, when my mom first went to bed, she was 8 and I was 6.
	Right.
	And you guys were basically unsupervised for huge chunks of time, pretty much, right?
	Right.
	So my dad was gone by the time we got up in the morning and he would be home.
	Generally in time to tug us in at night and he would be around on the weekends but he'd be you know working from home or you know.
	So he was gone like from what seven eight in the morning until eight nine o'clock at night?
	Yeah I mean he had a he had a long commute and he worked long hours and Basically anything to avoid all of that was a choice, right?
	No, I'm not I'm not trying to say he didn't have it like he got a birthmark, right?
	Right.
	No, he chose to do that to avoid You know the shit that was going on and how weird it is to be home with a mother Who's there but not there It's the haunt today's show is the haunting show, You know, the ghost in the bed with the bell.
	So we talked about the first reason why people might be scary.
	Right.
	Again, I'm not a psychologist, but what is colloquially, well, I will colloquially call social anxiety, right?
	Yeah.
	And it's because people are scary and your parents, particularly your mom, seems to me like the image that comes to my mind is, you know, you're strapped into a cab, the cab driver's gas is full on the pedal, and he's blindfolded.
	Right.
	Right.
	I mean, nobody is making any intelligent decisions, wise decisions, or getting any outside help that's effective or asking the kids what they want.
	You guys, like in so many dysfunctional families, it's the children who have to cease to exist in order for the family to even remotely function, right?
	You can have no needs, no preferences, nothing of yours.
	You cannot be inconvenient.
	You cannot make demands.
	You cannot even make requests.
	You can't even dream of having requests or preferences.
	You have to turn yourself into a ghost because the parental wisdom is dead.
	Right.
	Dad, stay home.
	Fix mom.
	Take charge.
	Be a goddamn parent.
	Mom, get the fuck out of bed.
	And do something.
	Or check yourself into some place where they can really help you.
	But just sitting around here is so ridiculously horrendous, I don't even know what to say.
	And so having parents who don't recognize that you have needs, in fact, whose very dysfunction is predicated on you not having needs, is terrifying for children.
	And it's the kind of terror that ceases to even feel itself, if that makes any sense.
	You end up not having any needs.
	You become this just blind automaton who enjoys being distracted and who can't have any preferences.
	Preferences is life.
	Preferences is identity.
	Preferences is personality.
	And you have to become an invisible pane of glass through which your parents see the end of their own personalities.
	You can't even make a ripple.
	And that's a terrifying situation to be in as a child.
	And you know the other reason why people are terrified of other people?
	No.
	Because the people who are terrified of other people are horrible, horrible people, and they're afraid of being found out.
	Does that mean that I'm a horrible person?
	No.
	Because you're talking about it.
	You're processing it.
	You're having conversations, right?
	Right.
	You're dealing with it.
	No, and you're not a horrible person.
	That's why I put the other one first, right?
	Right.
	Well, you're surrounded by scary people, terrifying people.
	I mean, I don't assume that you've introduced any 12-year-old children to the endless joys of daily pot smoking, right?
	No.
	I don't suppose you've taken on the responsibility of having children and then be not just abandoning parent, but being a net block to the parent.
	I assume that you haven't made children with someone and then been a workaholic while your wife sits home not parenting and rotting like a bunch of bandages in a sarcophagus.
	Yeah, no, I haven't.
	Right, so you haven't done these horrible things, so you're not terrified of people because you're a horrible person and you're afraid that people are going to find you out.
	You know, if you've got a body in the trunk of your car, how happy are you to be pulled over by the cops?
	Terrified of the cops?
	I got a body in the car.
	I don't want to get caught.
	Hell, you're terrified of anyone with a sensitive nose and a crowbar.
	It's not irrational.
	Thank you.
	It's not irrational, given what you suffered at all.
	And the reason I think it's your...
	I'm zeroing in on your mom, but that may not be even remotely accurate in terms of anything definitive.
	Everyone else is cocky, mean, and won't like me.
	That's the part I zeroed in for the second part, which I don't think is you, but I think is your parents.
	What decent human being would find out the truth about your mom?
	What would they think?
	That she's terrible.
	Well, I mean, you could struggle for sympathy and you could, you know, gosh, she must have had a difficult childhood and so on.
	But it would be pretty hard to escape the reality that that was some absolutely terrible and destructive parenting.
	Right.
	It's not the only thing she did.
	I'm sure you had some fun memories with her, but that's some pretty terrible stuff.
	I mean, that's like trailer park confidential stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	So...
	A fear that people won't like someone.
	I think that's a fear that people who've done really bad stuff feel.
	If people knew the truth about me, they would not like me.
	So I'm afraid of people.
	Because the more perceptive they are, the more curious they are, the more they try to get to know me, the more terrifying they are to me, right?
	And what that means is basically their own self-dislike is being projected onto other people.
	Their own self-hatred is projected on other people because it's easier to imagine that your dysfunctions are other people and other people's responsibility.
	I just did a video on this about people saying, Steph, you make me feel guilty for asking for donations, you bastard or whatever, right?
	Because it's easier to project your bad conscience onto other people.
	You are making me feel this way because otherwise you actually have to internalize and recognize and deal with the fact that you did some really bad stuff.
	And I think that when you've done bad stuff enough that restitution is impossible, then I think you are locked in that chamber of projection forever.
	I just don't think you can get out when you've done the kind of stuff for which there's no restitution.
	And tell me, Matthew, is there anything that your mother could do that would balance out what happened to your childhood?
	That would make you say, okay, we're easy.
	No, I don't think so.
	No, I know.
	I'm pretty sure I agree with you, let's say.
	She is the people she doesn't like or is afraid won't like her.
	She is the people who terrify her.
	She terrifies herself, but can't...
	This is why she can't remember.
	This is why...
	I mean, the guy with the body in the trunk is not police phobic, right?
	He's conviction phobic.
	He's consequence phobic.
	He's reality phobic, right?
	The people who raised you, I believe, or I experienced them as terrifying.
	And I don't think there has been the kind of honest admission and self-ownership of the egregious and terrifying and terrible mistakes that were made and the truly nasty and bad behavior that occurred.
	I don't think there's been an honest accounting of it.
	So I think that the fears are there because there's no confession.
	Right.
	You know, if you do wrong and don't confess, well, it's hard not to think the world isn't out to get you, right?
	Yeah.
	Because you're still a danger.
	I'm biting my tongue so much that I must stop and ask you how you feel.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	I'm just kind of processing it, but I know that this conversation has really hit me hard, I have to say.
	Tell me what's going on.
	You know, I think...
	I mean, what you said about her not wanting to parent and being terrified because she doesn't want other people to find out what type of person she is.
	I mean, that's dead on.
	And, you know, if I'm just totally honest, I just feel angry.
	I feel hurt.
	I feel like...
	I said it before, but why bother?
	If you're gonna be in bed all day or you're gonna work all day, if you're gonna do everything you can to avoid having any semblance of Real connection with your kid, then why fucking bother?
	So maybe they were terrified of me.
	Maybe they were terrified of getting to know me and that behavior rubbed off on me and that's why I'm so scared or something.
	I don't know.
	I wouldn't...
	I think that's very generous.
	I mean, you have a bigot, a good heart.
	But don't over-inflate it to the bursting point.
	I think it's probably fair to say that...
	Well, let me ask you this.
	So let's say, let's go back in time, and you're six, right?
	Or seven, and your mom's gone to bed, or your mom's non-functional or counter-functional, and your dad is gone all day, right?
	And then on the weekend, you take your dad into your...
	Mom's dungeon.
	And you bring your sister in, maybe, or whatever.
	But the important thing is you say, look, this is not working.
	Mom's non-functional.
	Dad, you're gone all day.
	We are abandoned children.
	But we can't even go to some cop and get to a foster home.
	Like, this is not working.
	You guys are not parenting.
	This is not a choice.
	You can give us up into a system or something like that, but you cannot continue in this way.
	This cannot continue.
	This is dangerous.
	We've got an eight- and a six-year-old unsupervised.
	You guys chose to become parents, and you are not doing what you need to do.
	You're not even close to doing what you need to do to be functional parents.
	So what are we going to do?
	You're the parents.
	Fix it.
	What would happen?
	I don't even know.
	I mean, I think...
	Sorry, it's hard to even imagine.
	Alright, let me try another sentence or two.
	You are breaking us.
	This is not a game.
	We are real human beings that you chose to bring into this world.
	You are harming us.
	You are hurting us.
	You may be damaging us in ways that we can never repair from.
	This is not a game.
	This has to be everybody's maximum priority.
	And by everybody, I mean you and dad.
	You have to fix this.
	We are being harmed.
	We are in a burning house of your incompetence and indifference.
	You must act now to fix it.
	This cannot continue.
	We are being broken I mean I I think I You know, what would they say?
	I mean, you know, based on my mom's behavior, she would find a way to turn the suffering around onto her.
	She would find a way to make her the victim in it.
	Right.
	And then you'd say, but I'm six and my sister is eight.
	You cannot possibly be the victims.
	You chose to have parents.
	You chose to become parents.
	We did not choose you as parents.
	You chose to have children.
	You cannot be the victim when you're the only two people in the room who had a choice.
	It wasn't us.
	You think we would have chosen you as parents?
	You think we would have chosen this situation?
	You cannot play the victim when you are the person who made the choices that brought us into existence and we did not choose to be here.
	We did not choose to have you as parents.
	Don't play the victim.
	Start again.
	Fix this.
	I'm sorry.
	I can't even...
	I don't know what they would do.
	I can tell you what they would do.
	Please go ahead.
	I'm sorry.
	You would be witness to full-on infantile narcissistic rage.
	Massive, petulant tantrums.
	Would follow any manifestation of inconvenient needs on the part of you or your sister.
	That's what you would see.
	Right.
	Which is why not only did you not do it, but you shouldn't have, right?
	I'm not saying this would be a healthy, this would be an incredibly dangerous edge of the cliff conversation.
	When people have this kind of immaturity and entitlement, the reason they ignore other people's needs is the moment they even consider other people and their needs, particularly children, they're full of rage.
	Their own unmet needs of childhood, their own dysfunctions as parents, their own abandonment of their responsibilities, they...
	Right?
	Right.
	Thwarted will.
	Thwarted immature will.
	Attempts to blow through those who are dependent through rage, right?
	Which is why it tends to get unleashed on the kids so often.
	And I think that knowing that a manifestation of needs that were inconvenient to your parents, and by that I mean any needs that you would have had, and any needs your sister would have had as children, would provoke entitlement rage on the part of your parents?
	Yes, that's terrifying!
	Right.
	And the reason it goes out into society, as I've said a million times on this show before, which is not to say that you would ever have heard it.
	I'm just sort of pointing it out.
	This is not new to what I'm saying.
	But the reason, Matthew, why this goes out into society is you were in a society.
	You weren't on a lunar base.
	You weren't on an ice flow.
	You were in the middle of a society.
	You had friends, teachers, preachers, extended family, neighborhood parents, you name it.
	Everybody was around.
	And it still happened.
	Who intervened?
	No one.
	No one!
	Everybody colluded.
	Right.
	Everybody colluded.
	So, the dangers of your parents' dysfunction was not exactly mediated or remediated by any care or concern on the part of a wider society, right?
	Right.
	They're like, yeah, fuck them, I'm sure they'll be fine.
	That makes a lot of sense.
	So, yeah, when you go through child abuse, child neglect, you learn some pretty tragic things about society.
	And its commitment to the health and welfare of children.
	Like, oh, you're bitter.
	No, I'm aware.
	Right.
	I've seen society for what it is.
	I've seen what people do despite their protestations of loving children.
	I've seen society that abused children can float through society like dandelion fluffs that nobody gives a shit about, nobody acts on.
	And even as an adult, when you bring it up, what do people do?
	They get uncomfortable.
	They don't want to talk about it.
	You've got mommy issues.
	They then turn on and abuse you further, usually.
	They ignore you or abuse you further.
	That is the reality.
	Of what society is!
	And people get mad at those of us who've seen it.
	How about getting mad at society?
	Oh no!
	Because I bet you haven't done anything to help children and victims of child abuse either, so you're part of the problem!
	Of course you don't want to hear about it!
	We have seen the hellscape of human society as it stands.
	We have seen the fundamental tragic Indifference of society to the suffering of children where everybody pretends to be this warm, cuddly hallmark card concern and they're basically fucking Easter statues, stone faces of fundamental indifference and resentment that ever it's brought up.
	We have seen too deeply into the reality of society.
	It's scary.
	Which doesn't mean that you have to spend the rest of your life scared.
	I'm not that way, right?
	But you have to, I think, for me at least, the first thing was to accept that this is the reality, that this was what happened to me, this is what happened to you.
	There was no intervention, though hundreds of people knew about me, hundreds of people probably knew about you over the course of your childhood, right?
	Right.
	And nobody did a goddamn thing about any of it.
	Parents, extended family, teachers, preachers, friends, friends, parents, no one, nothing, nothing.
	And that's the reality of society, and this is why it's really important to choose your companions wisely when you get older.
	Because the vast majority of people are incredibly uncomfortable with not only the reality of child abuse, but the reality of the massive indifference and collusion and cover-up and enabling that society gives to child abusers.
	Child abuse is a social phenomenon.
	It is not a familial phenomenon.
	Child abuse cannot exist without the collusion of society.
	Without the enablement of everybody who ignores it.
	That is the only reason it exists.
	Because the bodies are not in the trunk.
	The bodies are strapped to the fucking roof of the car.
	These are not hidden bodies.
	You weren't kept in a basement.
	People knew of your existence.
	You were out in the world.
	These are not crimes that it takes six seasons of bones to uncover.
	Doesn't take a lot of PhDs with particulates and bug shit.
	It's right in front of everyone.
	And it only exists.
	The bodies don't even have to be hidden.
	The bodies don't even have to be in the trunk.
	Because everybody sanctifies and supports and enables the murderers.
	And the murderers, the criminals, are praised.
	The criminals are given sympathy.
	None of the victims.
	None of the victims.
	Of course, none of the victims.
	But, what you see in society when you've been abused, and just about everybody who's been abused has never had a single champion, either as a child or as an adult, in their corner to listen to help.
	This is why people call.
	This is why you call.
	Right.
	Don't you need someone to see?
	Don't you need someone to accurately reflect back to you what actually happened to you?
	And say, yes, I get it.
	I understand it.
	I'm not going to inject my own thing.
	I'm going to listen.
	I'm going to respond.
	An enlightened witness.
	Isn't that what we talk to each other about these things for?
	And how rare is it?
	All we need to do is listen and sympathize.
	That's all we need to do to change the world.
	Listen and sympathize.
	You were hurt.
	It was wrong.
	I'm sorry if I'd have been there.
	I'd have done something.
	I wasn't.
	I can do something now.
	Right.
	It's a cold world for the little people.
	It's a cold world for the little people.
	Am I right?
	Oh, yeah.
	I mean, I think that's part of what drew me so strongly when I first heard one of your call-in shows was, you know, wow, finally someone is listening.
	Someone is saying something, anything to these people that These kids who had suffered through it, and like you said, no one said anything to them.
	No one cared.
	No one did anything to help them.
	It's just so out of the ordinary in such a good way to find something like this, like these conversations.
	It truly is amazing.
	I appreciate that.
	And I really appreciate your honesty in this area.
	When you're raised by dysfunctional people, the dysfunction gets under your skin.
	It has to.
	It's your survival mechanism.
	You know, when crazy people have power over you, you say crazy stuff.
	That's natural.
	That's survival, right?
	And I think your courage is extraordinary.
	Your inner resources are extraordinary.
	Your strength is extraordinary.
	And I'm going to put my usual...
	Get the to a therapist line, which you've heard a million times before, but...
	Well, actually, I see a new therapist for the second time tomorrow morning, so...
	Great!
	Congratulations.
	Thank you.
	I mean, you were one of the strongest voices that helped convince me to get back into therapy, so thank you for that.
	Fantastic.
	And look, I mean, it is out of these broken histories that the strength of a new society is going to come, and out of no other place.
	Out of no other place.
	It's what Whitaker Chambers, I've said this before, Whitaker Chambers said that the fight against communism is going to be between the communists and the ex-communists.
	Because nobody else is seen deeply into that evil and has the strength to fight them.
	And the fight against child abuse is going to come out of the victims.
	It's a hell of a thing to have to do.
	It's a hell of a demand or a request to put out to victims of child abuse.
	But it is only the victims of child abuse who are going to be able to put An end to this cycle.
	And it is going to be a tough fight.
	It's going to be a brutal fight.
	It's going to be a fight full of lies and slanders on the part of abusers, but it is an absolutely necessary fight.
	Because there is no other way that the salvation of the species can come in any sustainable way other than in the better treatment of children.
	And it is only those of us who have been through it who have seen how dark and dangerous and difficult these abusers are.
	Who will be able to sympathize, to empathize, and to heal the world of its hidden histories.
	So, I appreciate your contribution to this conversation.
	I hugely appreciate your therapy, and I really appreciate your time with me tonight.
	Thank you.
	This means the world to me, seriously.
	You know, you guys have, you know, you and Mike and Stoyan and, you know, the whole community has Change my entire outlook on life.
	I couldn't praise you guys highly enough.
	And, you know, I am starting new jobs soon, so I will be donating, just so you know.
	I would be very happy for you to save your money for therapy and donate way down the road.
	I'd rather you honestly, seriously, spend your money on therapy right now and don't worry about it.
	Let other people take that burden for now.
	Just focus on the money you need for therapy, all right?
	Okay.
	Well, thank you for that.
	All right.
	Keep us posted.
	Thank you very much.
	Thank you so much, man.
	I really appreciate that.
	And with that having been said, a second longest show, perhaps?
	Actually, I just looked because I was curious, and apparently we did one that was near five hours.
	Oh, I remember that one.
	Yeah, about a year and a half ago.
	But I really appreciate everyone's call, everyone's conversation, freedomainradio.com slash donate.
	To help out the show, we need you, of course, as much if not more than ever to help continue to spread this conversation and help everyone out in this amazing and challenging struggle of rehumanizing the world.
	So have yourselves a wonderful, wonderful week, everyone.

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