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March 26, 2015 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:10:30

2937 How to Overcome an Inferiority Complex - Call in Show - March 25th, 2015

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Time	Text
	Good evening, philosophy fans.
	This is Ben Molyneux from Freedom Aid Radio.
	This very day, 25th of March, 2015.
	Yea, verily, it is but six days before the end of the month.
	Help us not to cry this month.
	Help us not to root around under the couch for toenail clippings to fry up into a nice protein stew.
	Mmm, fried toenail.
	Mmm.
	Toe jam, stew!
	It's the corporate dinner nobody wants to attend.
	Never have dinner at Steph's.
	That's what we've learned from this already.
	I can't remember if I talked about Mean Gang food.
	I think a couple times you talked about it on the show, but add that to the list.
	Yeah, we've got some good stuff.
	So, just for those who don't know, my daughter likes to talk people into joining the nice gang.
	Because...
	She apparently is preparing for this show to take it over in time, probably next week.
	But she likes talking to people.
	And one of the things that's true about the nice gang is you get really good food.
	And in the mean gang, you get terrible food.
	So I, of course, play meanie.
	Mike, can you guess which gang meanie is from?
	Mean gang.
	Good job!
	See?
	You can do IQ tests for employment.
	I am so smart.
	Thank you for spelling that right.
	Anyway, so in the Mean Gang, you have terrible food.
	So, you know, Mac and Sneeze.
	So we play this game where I say, you know, we don't get croissants in the Mean Gang.
	And she's like, oh, are they this?
	And she tries to guess what horrible thing you can make out of the word crunch.
	And I say, no, crush on is what you get in the mean gang, where basically they just crush your hand and call it food.
	And it's less disturbing than it sounds, come to think of it.
	The ice cream sandwich, which is basically they put a piece of hot bread on top of your head and scream in your ear.
	And it really just goes on and on.
	Less like food and more like physical abuse.
	Yeah, most of the food has various kinds of mousetraps and so on in it.
	It's a huge amount of fun.
	The game can literally go on for like 40 minutes where she is trying to get me to join the nice gang.
	Basically, Mike, I think we've, you know, because we try all this reason, evidence and stuff, it comes down to the buffet.
	Yeah, this is what I'm learning from her, that it comes down to the food.
	If you simply don't have a superior buffet, nobody's going to join your gang.
	So next up, Freedom Aid Radio cooking show.
	You should see the spread we have for donators.
	Oh, at least three or four meats, and then we have options for the vegetarian people, of course.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	That's the spread that you were thinking of giving.
	I thought it was something to do with my legs.
	But I like your approach too.
	So before everybody stops listening to the show completely, perhaps we should move on with the listeners who are waiting patiently and have been low these many months.
	Alright, I will try and get fried toenail clippings out of my mind and move on to Phil, who's up first.
	And Phil wrote in a little bit of a longer message, but I'm going to read it all to give it some context.
	He wrote in and said, I am engaged in the most perfect possible match in a woman I could possibly hope for.
	Without going into too much detail, it is basically a flawless match in regards to her personality, physicality, ideology, faith, and family.
	But I've recently come down with a crippling inferiority complex.
	Instead of celebrating her strengths and her success as I used to, I simply maintain an outward veneer of support while feeling like my insides are being torn to pieces.
	She is wildly successful for her age, only 30, and it is only going to continue with even more momentum.
	It makes me feel useless as a man that I don't have as much to offer.
	I do just fine, but by comparison, I'm not even close.
	It makes me afraid to have children because of my lack of self-esteem.
	Me being a stay-at-home dad is a surefire recipe for disaster.
	I know this already.
	Hmm.
	My heart and my mind, no, it's not a contest, but my gut says otherwise.
	I truly love her.
	This is a one in a million partnering.
	I know she deeply loves me too, and I am foreseeing ruining this wonderful thing with my apparent pettiness.
	Eventually, I will not be able to maintain a facade.
	It may drive her off.
	I've tried what seems like everything, but it only provides temporary relief.
	I can't imagine losing her.
	So how can I simply learn to get over my inferiority complex?
	How can I simply accept the circumstances as they are and see us as a team?
	Hmm.
	Right.
	Well, I appreciate that.
	That's a tough problem.
	You know, like, sometimes in life when you hear other people's problems, you're like, yeah, I'd like those problems.
	But, of course, when you're in it, it's, you know, it's difficult, right?
	It's tough.
	Right.
	I mean, I've got some thoughts already, but I'm happy to ask questions or share my thoughts.
	What's your preference?
	Share some thoughts and then you can ask some questions.
	I would say that most people's inferiority complex is denying the validity of the inferiority complex.
	And by validity, I don't mean that you are inferior, but that the emotions are trying to tell you something, right?
	Emotions are like people in general.
	The more you tamp them down, the more resentful and resistant they become.
	The more you try to control people, the closer you tighten your fist, the more star systems will slip through your fingers and so on.
	So your feelings of anxiety, your feelings of worthlessness and so on are there for a reason.
	And that doesn't mean that you are unworthy.
	It doesn't mean that you are destined to a life of crippling self-doubt and insecurity.
	But I would argue that – and I think you've said so much in the letter, Phil, that opposing the feelings of just trying to talk yourself out of them and so on only gives – I think your phrase was temporary relief, right?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And now, have you talked to, we'll call her, Mfufu?
	Okay.
	After the African queen that Eddie Murphy was going to marry in one of his monologues.
	So, have you talked to Mfufu about this?
	Yeah, not quite as detailed as what I did in my letter, but...
	Mfufu is very patient and understanding with this sort of thing, but I haven't outright said, it makes me feel shitty when you tell me about your promotion.
	I say in a very happy, excited voice, oh, I'm so happy for you, and then I go to your party, but for some reason I can't own that feeling of success for myself, and I'm supposed to.
	I feel like I'm supposed to as a person who genuinely loves her.
	I haven't quite gotten into that much detail yet, but I have I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry, Phil.
	Just to point out, the exact opposite of what you're saying is not extra detail.
	Okay.
	Do you know what I mean?
	Like if I say, well, to get to the party, you head south.
	And then you come back and it's not the complete opposite.
	Well, I forgot to mention that little extra detail, which is you should go north.
	Well, I mean, she's smart enough to know what's going on.
	She's not an idiot.
	Like she knows that I'm not...
	Does she know that you resent at the moment her successes?
	No.
	I think she knows now that I do feel inadequate.
	I don't know if she knows how dramatically it's tied to her success.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay, so that's not great, but I can certainly understand why you'd want to keep that hidden, right?
	Yes.
	And this is one of these traps, right?
	Like, if I tell her, she won't love me anymore.
	If I keep hiding it from her, I won't love her anymore, right?
	It becomes one of these real, like, no win, right?
	And no win just means third way.
	You gotta just, like, can't go forward, can't go backwards, must go sideways, even if we have to tunnel, right?
	Yeah.
	And I have to bring up a little disclaimer.
	I've actually, I wrote this about a month ago, and my fortunes have actually changed dramatically for the better since then.
	That's not the solution.
	I know that.
	I absolutely know that.
	That's why I'm still here.
	It's good that you feel better, but, you know, life has its vicissitudes, right?
	Life has its ups and downs.
	Yep.
	And, you know, it is important to get to the root of the problem, right?
	Absolutely.
	That's why I'm still here.
	No, no, I appreciate that.
	I know you know that.
	I just, again, I'm talking to you plus the planet, right?
	So I just want to make sure we're all aware of that.
	Okay.
	Now, your ACE score is 6.
	Yeah.
	Which is not good.
	So, verbal abuse threats, physical abuse, non-spanking, no family love or support, parents divorced, physical abuse towards female adult in the ACE of the future.
	We may have a male adult in there.
	Lived with alcoholic or drug user.
	And you are not in therapy now.
	Have you done therapy in the past?
	In the past, but not specifically for this.
	You mean for this being your ACE score or for this being your girlfriend or fiancee issue?
	Not for the inferiority complex issue, but I think that it has a lot to do with how I was raised and my parental situation, which is kind of why I specifically thought of you.
	I was raised by shitty parents, so I immediately thought of Steph.
	Well, for two reasons.
	Because you are a stay-at-home dad, and I thought maybe that would end up being my fate at some point.
	Wait.
	Oh, man.
	Yeah.
	Oh, man.
	You're killing me.
	You're killing me.
	I'm like this woman in a bikini being spun in a circus on a red star, giant red star, and you're supposed to be throwing these knives, and it's like, jugular, testicle.
	Oh, I'm sorry, Seth.
	No, I have great respect for it.
	I just know it doesn't work for me personally, you know?
	Oh, my goodness.
	Oh my goodness.
	Have you tried it before?
	No.
	But you know.
	I just know that I've been at home unemployed until recently, basically helping her out.
	Oh my god.
	You are not even remotely equating being a stay-at-home dad with being unemployed, are you?
	I mean, I didn't have a job.
	That's pretty much the same as raising children.
	No, no, no.
	It's not the same, but it is not being out there working and Being successful.
	That's, you know...
	It's not...
	Oh!
	Straight into the ribcage.
	So, you know, being a stay-at-home guy, that's not being successful.
	No, no, no.
	For me, I'd have to...
	It's only molding a human life, but it doesn't come with a corner office, and there's no free coffee.
	You only have the validation of creating the next generation of civilized human beings.
	What possible positive feedback could I get relative to, say, a performance review every year?
	Anyway, I'm just pointing out.
	I know you don't.
	I get it.
	I know you're not trying to be insulting.
	But, I mean, it's really harsh what you're saying, right?
	Well, let me just say I probably don't have the experience to speak to that with any validity.
	So just ignore it.
	Well, okay.
	But that wasn't like 10 seconds ago, right?
	Right.
	I'm just pointing it out.
	I'm not mad or anything because I think I get where it's coming from.
	And listen, just whatever you do with your life is obviously your own business.
	But Phil, I'm telling you, you see that life.
	You see this incredible, perfect life.
	Pink ball of functional organs.
	Hey, there's a Hallmark card for you.
	Welcome to your new shiny talcum powder smelling pink ball of functional organs.
	But, I mean, it changes you.
	It changes you if you're, you know, especially if you've been chatting with the fetus for like six or seven months.
	It's incredible.
	And so, all I'm saying is that Don't necessarily pre-guess how it might go for you.
	Okay.
	That's all I'm saying.
	Okay, so she knows about your ACE score.
	Not necessarily the number, but the general circumstances.
	She does, yeah.
	And do you know what hers is?
	Oh, I haven't gone through it, but I would guess it's pretty low.
	She has a very good family, intact, loving, supportive family.
	All right.
	Now, what does your family think of her and her family?
	I mean, they haven't actually met her yet.
	I'm on a level up.
	I live halfway across the country.
	It's hard.
	How long have you been dating this young lady?
	Eight months.
	Eight months.
	All right.
	And how long were you dating before you got engaged?
	Seven months.
	Ah, well, congratulations.
	Thanks.
	You know, some people say that's fast.
	It wasn't fast for me.
	I mean, we were married within 10 or 11 months of meeting, so I'm not going to say anything about that.
	I mean, some people, oh, it's too fast.
	It's like, well, but it's right, it's right.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Have they talked with her on the phone?
	Do they know that you're getting married?
	They haven't talked with her on the phone, but they know I'm getting married.
	I've talked with them quite a bit about her.
	They've had sort of indirect communication via Facebook.
	Because I'm telling you, if somebody was joining my gene pool for the next, say, 40 or 50 years, I'd be on a plane.
	I'd hitchhike.
	I'm like, okay, well, this person's going to be around forever.
	They may be The mother of my grandchildren, so I am all over that.
	I see where you're going with this, and I have to say, I agree with the direction you're going with this, because I don't think my mother could ever be bothered to care about this.
	Like, she's like, oh, okay, great.
	I mean, because I'm already divorced, and she thinks that that's, that was like my wife.
	What's that?
	You already what now?
	Yeah.
	Scratch that.
	I misspoke.
	I am divorced from a few years ago.
	So you had to start a marriage?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I did.
	And how long did you know your first wife before you got married?
	Two years.
	Right.
	And do you know what went wrong with your first marriage?
	I know it's a big, complicated question, but what are your thoughts?
	It is complicated.
	I mean, sometimes it's not.
	Sometimes it is.
	Um...
	We were never really all that confident.
	Well, I never really was all that confident about it in the first place.
	This is a complicated question, but I probably shouldn't have asked in the first place is the long and short of it.
	No, I get that.
	But once you were in, how long were you married for?
	About two years.
	And what ended the marriage in particular?
	Was it a singular event or was it just like you woke up in the morning and it's like, I'd rather eat these pillows than do another day with this person?
	A complete and utter barren wasteland in terms of intimacy and affection.
	Oh, so just emotionally empty?
	Yeah.
	Mostly, I didn't get any.
	Wait, you weren't getting any sex?
	Well, not just sex, but any kind of intention, affection, emotional, moral support, that sort of thing.
	Now, you know, there's two prongs to the plug of this electrical current, and you've told me both are the ladies that are similar, right?
	Because what did you say about your mom?
	Hard to get her attention and affection.
	Doesn't care.
	Hard to get her attention.
	We'll never care about this.
	And then what's the first thing you say about your ex-wife?
	Same thing.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I don't know if you know that.
	Kind of, sort of.
	But now that you say it, it's clear.
	It's horrifyingly clear, right?
	Right.
	And so the reason that I'm sort of floating around the extended family is...
	Wait, how long have you listened to this show for?
	Pretty much ever since you've been putting them on YouTube.
	Whoa, dude.
	All right.
	So why am I floating around your mom?
	Well, in particular at the moment.
	Well, I guess the easy answer would be because I feel I didn't get the proper love and affection from mother, and so I look for an inordinate amount from women in relationships.
	And I think sometimes that leads to an unreasonable expectation on my part, or probably reaching too much for it, and maybe not noticing it when it's actually coming my way, you know, genuinely.
	Right.
	Complicated.
	Can I give you a simpler approach?
	Yeah, please.
	Which, you know, doesn't mean yours is wrong or anything.
	I'm just telling you.
	Simpler approach.
	So, Phil, whenever you're about to improve your life, and this is what you're saying with regards to this upcoming nuptials, right?
	That this is a great woman.
	It's going to be great for you.
	You can't, you know, right?
	Yeah.
	But you have this anxiety.
	So, whenever I'm about to take a step forward, right?
	Do something bigger, better, whatever, right?
	There's an improvement that I want.
	The question I ask myself is, who in my history has a problem with my success?
	And that success doesn't mean necessarily financial success or anything like that, but it means whose interests will suffer, whose interests will take a blow, If I'm around really functional people.
	So I'm going to take your statements at face value.
	No reason to disbelieve you.
	Well, one or two, but I'm not going to focus on that now.
	About Mfufu, right?
	So Mfufu has a great family and so on.
	So she has a loving mom and was raised peacefully and so on, right?
	Right.
	So how is your family...
	Going to react if you're around a really functional, happy, loving, affectionate, considerate, empathetic, curious, connected family?
	Really good question.
	I think they will be happy for me.
	My relationship with my parents has gotten considerably better as I've actually become an adult.
	Um...
	My dad sometimes, for instance, with my ex-father-in-law, would sometimes get a little bit jealous.
	I don't know if that sounds odd.
	Sorry, your ex's father-in-law would get jealous?
	No, my biological father would be jealous if I were to, for instance, talk loudingly about my ex-father-in-law.
	Okay.
	I think that's where a lot of this comes from.
	My biological father is very competitive, likes to compare himself to others, and gets jealous of me, jealous of my brother, even of my mother.
	He really doesn't have much reason to.
	He's a man of high caliber, but he still gets very insecure about himself.
	It sounds really petty, but whenever I would beat him at ping pong, for instance, or golf, or any stupid little thing where it would be just because I practiced enough when I finally beat him, like he was beating me the whole time, it would just tear him to pieces.
	He would get angry, really angry.
	And so I actually stopped golfing just because I played one round where I had a 76, and he was just not happy.
	Couldn't take the news.
	No, I get that.
	My daughter is wickedly good at cards.
	I'm going to wind her up and loose her in Las Vegas and retire rich.
	She's really, really good at cards.
	I've never been that great at cards.
	Although, well, I'll tell that story another time.
	But she was just kicking me all up and down the kitchen table the other day.
	We played like seven rounds and I like won one.
	And I'm like, I was getting annoyed.
	And I noticed this about myself, and I'm like, oh yeah, good parenting, dad.
	Good parenting, Mr.
	Stephbot.
	Yeah, that's the way to go.
	Your daughter is really good at cards, which means, you know, good memory, good math skills, pays attention, and so on, which gives you a sense of my cranial capacity.
	But I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, she just turned six.
	She's really good at cards, so that's annoying.
	No, that's great.
	That's great.
	And I just had to catch myself.
	And it's simply because when I was growing up...
	Remember, Phil?
	Let's make this all about me.
	No, but when I was growing up, when people won, it was like metaphysical significance.
	It wasn't like, I'm better at this game than you.
	It was, I'm better than you.
	Yeah, that's this old song, anything you can do, I can do better.
	And when people are good at a particular thing, if they are vain and shallow and empty and if they fundamentally win-lose and non-empathetic, then what they do is they say, me winning this game means I'm better than you.
	And not just in this game, like I'm fundamentally better than you.
	And that is pretty tragic.
	So when I was losing, of course my daughter wasn't doing anything like that.
	She was very gracious about winning and so on.
	But it sort of echoed.
	So I just had to notice that and catch that.
	And be happy.
	She's really good at cards.
	I mean, it's great to see.
	And so once I noticed that, I was just relaxed and really enjoyed it.
	Like, what the hell do I care how good at cards I am?
	It's not going to be my career.
	I'd be like the always naked guy in strip poker.
	And not on purpose.
	Even if it was cold, I'd still be the always naked guy.
	So I just wanted to point that out with regards to winning and losing.
	If people think that the immediate act or process of winning or losing says something fundamental about them, well, they're mistaken, right?
	But that means that they grew up in an environment where because people didn't have real self-esteem, like when you don't have real self-esteem, you end up having to have a self-esteem that's based on win-lose.
	Real self-esteem is surrounding yourself with people that you have win-win and lots of fun and it's not at people's expense and so on.
	I ended a friendship over this years ago when...
	It's a guy who just continually would tell stories where I came off badly.
	And this was like this compulsion.
	Some social gathering is like, here comes another one.
	And I tried to talk to him about it and said, you know, look, I'm...
	I'm a pretty successful guy.
	I'm doing alright.
	And it just seems kind of weird that you have this desire to Like, what's up with that, right?
	It's like, oh, it's funny.
	Really?
	Have I ever laughed?
	And that just says that with the real self-esteem, and self-esteem is, again, a complicated topic, and I've talked about it with a very smart fellow who's got very good things to say and criticism of it, but just to use the term for the moment, If you have real intimacy, then your self-esteem is win-win, right?
	And that's when you can genuinely be happy for other people's success.
	And when you grow up without intimacy, then the way that you gain your identity is by being better than, which means you have to win and the other person has to lose, right?
	So you said that your biological dad had this when you would praise your stepdad, right?
	Right.
	Now, what about your stepdad?
	Ex-father-in-law, you mean?
	Ex-spouse's father?
	Sorry, ex-spouse's father.
	My apologies.
	Okay, no problem.
	What about him?
	He was just an extremely wise guy.
	Just a really good guy.
	He would never do something like that.
	I'd like to say that was involuntary, but it was half involuntary.
	So do wise guys raise your ex-wife?
	I don't know.
	I don't know how that his parenting affected her, but it's interesting to think about.
	I've really thought about it.
	You know, because this is the thing I've noticed, and please understand, I've just met you, so none of this is defining you in any way, shape, or form.
	I'm just telling you what I've noticed, which is, you know, probably mostly nonsense.
	But you have a lot of, you know, you use these words for people.
	And when I sort of try and put the empirical evidence for those, that's why I sort of stopped with the, oh, you know, he's a really wise guy.
	It's like, well, I don't know that...
	I mean, if he was a really wise guy, wouldn't he know that you and his daughter wouldn't make a match?
	Perhaps.
	Well, no.
	Really wise would at least mean that you have some concept of who your daughter is compatible with, right?
	Right.
	Some idea.
	I mean, it's hard to be wise about things in the abstract if he's, like, toasting you and your ex-wife's wedding, which lasts less than two years or about two years, and he says, yeah, you sail off into the sunset, happily ever after.
	I'm down with that.
	Yeah.
	Now, in your family, because there was violence in raising you, right, there was physical abuse, right?
	Um...
	Well, to clarify that, there was just a little bit toward me.
	It was basically just one incident per parent.
	When my dad hit me, he actually ended up spending a night in jail, and then he stopped doing anything else.
	Spent a night in jail?
	I'd like to hear a little more about that.
	Yeah, I mean, I got hit pretty hard, and I got some cuts in the back of my head, so I visited a friend, and they called the police, and the rest is history.
	But most of the violence was to each other.
	Between your parents?
	Between my biological parents.
	It was actually both ways.
	I would say most of the abuse that I could claim is psychological, not physical.
	You mean witnessing the violence between your bio parents?
	Right, and also sort of the intimidation.
	Like, before I was big enough to intimidate him, my father would often intimidate me physically.
	Right.
	How long were they together, and how old were you when they broke up?
	They were together seven years, and when I was six years old, they divorced.
	Right.
	What did they think of your first marriage?
	Um...
	They were happy for me.
	I guess they were mostly concerned with the logistics of me having a very organized wife who can cook, because that's basically what one of her biggest strengths was, because they know I'm kind of a typical bachelor in that regard, so they were happy for me in that regard.
	I gotta say, they didn't really put enough attention and stock into Being able to make that deeper determination as to true compatibility.
	So, not much of an opinion there, I would say.
	Yeah, no, and I get that.
	And as I said before on this show, I was close to marrying the entirely wrong woman when I was younger.
	And one of the things that was really problematic for me, which revealed a lot about my personal relationships at the time, was nobody threw themselves in front of that oncoming death train of marriage.
	People are like, I'm happy for you!
	So what I got out of that, and so I went into therapy during this process, and what I got out of that was either A, they don't have any clue who I'm compatible with, which is really chilling.
	Really chilling.
	Or B, they know it's going to be a disaster, and they're fine with that.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	When you get married, assuming you're in contact with your family of origin, if you get married and it's a disaster, it's not just your responsibility.
	It's my responsibility as an adult when my daughter gets married to do my best to ensure that the marriage is going to last.
	Now, of course, a lot of that I'm doing in relationship stuff in the here and now.
	But if you get married and it's a disaster, it's not just your disaster.
	It's your family's disaster.
	Like, how could this happen?
	Right.
	And if I'm teaching my daughter to drive and she crashes into a garbage can, I can't just, oh, hey, that was all you.
	Nothing to do with that, right?
	Right.
	And that...
	Like, I'm listening for all that stuff.
	Like, I, you know, just for those who don't know, who may be new, I only listen to the empirical evidence.
	I don't listen to the adjectives.
	Right.
	You know, the smart, wise, loving family.
	Like, I don't listen to any of that stuff.
	But what I do, I listen to the empirical evidence, and if there's a discrepancy between...
	The empirical evidence and the adjectives, like I've always said, I'm an empiricist.
	I will go with the empirical evidence and I will point out this discrepancy.
	So what this tells me, and we are actually getting close to, I think, at least my thoughts on what you call the inferiority complex, Phil.
	But I think that People describe themselves to you, and underneath that, as there so often is when people describe themselves to you, is aggression.
	And people who are listening to this really take time to think about this in your life.
	Who describes themselves to you, and what happens if you disagree with that description?
	You know, like I've had people in my life who think they're victims.
	And because they think they're victims, they give themselves permission for sort of shocking levels of aggression.
	And so, when I point out that their victimhood is basically, you know, taking the safety off their revolver.
	And they are not, like, they spend more time victimizing others than actually being victimized by others.
	In the past, they get really angry.
	When people describe themselves to you, I'm a this, I'm a that, I'm like this, I'm wise, I'm smart, I'm sensitive, I'm intelligent, I'm whatever.
	When you question that and you compare their description of themselves to the evidence, the greater the disparity between people's description of themselves and what they're actually doing, the more aggression will be Invoked, if you point that difference out.
	Does it make any sense?
	I'm not saying do you agree with it at all, but you sort of...
	Oh yeah, it makes perfect sense.
	Okay, so people describe themselves to you, and you absorb that, and you say, well, this person is like this, and this person is like this, and so on, right?
	But this comes out of experiencing and witnessing violence and aggression as a child.
	So you have an ex-father-in-law who...
	I assume, comes across as, pretends to be, or describes himself as wise, right?
	And you have absorbed that, and you repeat that to other people.
	Correct.
	So, you are like a canyon wall, right?
	I shout, wise!
	at the canyon wall, and what happens?
	I do just kind of take it for I get an echo.
	True, yeah.
	Right?
	The word bounces off you and comes back to me.
	And this is no criticism.
	And you understand, this may not even be true.
	I'm just telling you what I think.
	You're spot on, Steph.
	Okay, but I... Because I... I don't like the idea that I define people.
	I'm just telling you what I think.
	These are just my thoughts.
	Wherever there's deviation, just tell me and we'll toss it.
	But if it works, we'll keep going.
	And this is no criticism.
	This is a perfectly healthy adaptive strategy to people who are self-deluded and therefore aggressive.
	The greater the gap between self-perception and reality, the more aggression Is unleashed on those who point out the discrepancy, right?
	Which is why people who are self-deluded have to, I'm not including you, but people who are self-deluded have to hang out with people who reinforce those delusions, right?
	Because aggression, aggression, aggression, right?
	In other words, people they feel superior to, if that's the case.
	Well, this is what's so dangerous about, yes, to a large degree, but mostly it's people they have power over.
	Okay.
	So people who are equal, I mean legally, right?
	People who, I don't mean win-lose, whenever you have self-delusions, whenever you're not honest with yourself about yourself, you end up in win-lose situations.
	But there's the mutually assured destruction of, you know, I'll reinforce your lies if you reinforce mine.
	So then both people have power over each other.
	And there's a lot of mutual aggression.
	Because again, the evidence doesn't support...
	What this delusion is, right?
	Right.
	And so there's a lot of that.
	But then when people have children, if you don't know yourself, and in particular if you're lying to yourself about yourself, when you have children, they become the drug that reinforces the falsehood.
	Because you'll never have more power over anyone than you have over your children.
	There's no power disparity in the world greater than Than that of parent and child.
	And so, if you are lying to yourself about yourself, you are inevitably going to use your children to prop up your false self, right?
	Your lies about yourself.
	And woe betide those children who oppose or question parental delusions.
	And so, people are corrupted by power.
	Everyone thinks this is politics.
	You know, power tends to corrupt.
	Absolute power tends to corrupt.
	Absolutely, says Lord Acton, right?
	Okay.
	Parenting.
	Power tends to corrupt.
	Absolute power tends to corrupt.
	Absolutely.
	Parenting is the power that tends to corrupt.
	The corruption in the political arena is just a dim aftershadow of the corruption that can occur in the parental arena.
	So people had a view of themselves when you were growing up.
	And I would imagine that the empirical evidence did not bear out that view.
	And if you were to point that out, I would imagine a fair amount of aggression would head your way.
	So the safest thing to be is not a thinking independently judging human being, but a dead rock canyon wall of echo without judgment or revision, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And if you look at conflicts among people, if you look at conflicts in movies, it's so much around wrestling of narrative and it's so much around win-lose.
	And it's so much of people attempting to define themselves as right and the other person as wrong.
	And if people are really committed to that, then when...
	That agreement cannot be sustained, the relationship ends.
	Right?
	So, I mean, as I've said before, I had a girlfriend who thought she was just in general superior to me, and as I went from success to success, and she stayed in a pretty dead-end-nowhere occupation, The empirical evidence just did not support this.
	And when I challenged her on this and said, you know, don't you think you don't really have a lot of backup here that you're superior to me and kind of thing, like I'm doing this and you're doing that, the relationship ended.
	Because her relationship was with my obedience, with my support to...
	Her supposed superiority, right?
	Right.
	And you can't have a relationship with obedience because obedience is a dead echo, right?
	It's a Kenyan war.
	Right.
	So, the reason why I think this stuff is important for you at this point in your life is you obviously don't want the marriage to fail again, right?
	Correct.
	Correct.
	I mean, that would be beyond heartbreaking.
	And you risk, like, deep depression, suicide, like men who, men in particular, when marriages break up, do very badly overall, not all, but on average.
	So this is kind of like, okay, I'll go swimming with sharks the second time with one leg, but I can't live with no legs, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So...
	What do you think it would look like if you took all the words out of your brain and looked at the mere data of your experience, at the facts of the people around you?
	That's a huge question.
	I don't even know if this makes any sense.
	I know it makes sense, but I don't know if it's possible.
	It does make sense.
	It's a question that I think people should ask themselves regularly.
	So they just cut through their own BS and see...
	No, no, cut through other people's BS. Yeah, and by proxy, your perception of them.
	Right.
	But the required perception of them.
	Right.
	If you had said to your ex-father-in-law before he became your father-in-law, I doubt your wisdom, what would have happened?
	Um...
	I think...
	I don't think much would have happened.
	I think he might have just shrugged me off.
	Well, no, but that would be pretty rude, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	So if you actually persisted in that conversation?
	Probably he would have just shut down and stopped communicating with me for at least a little while.
	Which would have been a complete preview of who?
	Aha.
	You got it.
	Yeah.
	How is my wife going to act if I say something she doesn't like?
	Or if I say something that makes her uncomfortable?
	Yeah.
	And if the father can't handle a mildly uncomfortable or even significantly uncomfortable conversation, if her father can't handle it, can she?
	I suppose not, given the evidence.
	Well, yes.
	Unless she is fully aware of his limitation in this area.
	Now, if you did...
	And confrontation sounds...
	But if you were honest about your concerns, if you said, well, you seem to come across as wise, or I think you think you're wise, or you keep telling me that you're wise...
	You know, help me square this, because, you know, this, this, and this, right?
	If you did it in front of your ex-wife when she was still your girlfriend or fiance, what would she have done?
	Probably the exact same thing.
	Well, would she have said, that's a good question, Dad, I'd really like you to answer him.
	No.
	What would she have said?
	She would have said, Phil, what are you doing?
	Right.
	That's totally rude.
	You can't ask him that.
	That's my dad.
	What's gotten into you?
	We've been having a perfectly nice dinner, and what are you trying to prove?
	You're just rude.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	And then you're like, aha!
	And then we'll have no sex.
	And there'll be no intimacy.
	See, this is the value of honesty.
	Honesty protects the shit out of you.
	Now this is looking for the show.
	Honesty protects the shit out of you.
	Do not take with Metamucil.
	But honesty in this would have illuminated everything.
	Right?
	Most times when people are getting into relationships, they're driving away from a city into darkness They don't have their front lights on and they're only looking in the rearview mirror and then they wonder why they crash.
	You turn the high beams on, you can see where the hell you're going, but that means being honest in the moment if you have doubts.
	And look, I'm telling you, I've had experiences.
	I've had experiences where I've challenged people's narrative and they've yelled at me.
	Not because I'm telling them that they're wrong, I'm just being honest about my doubts.
	And that's scary and difficult, but boy, pretty liberating.
	So, are there unspoken, non-Canyon Wall thoughts that you have about current family, fiancé, In-laws that you wish you had asked before, and this doesn't mean to avoid getting married, right?
	Right.
	Because I think before it would have meant you were avoiding, you would have ended up not married, which would have been better, I assume, right?
	Right.
	But in this case, are you going into the most important relationship in your adult life unexpressed?
	And speaking in important areas.
	I feel like with Mfufu, we are very honest and direct with each other.
	You may not have continuity, Mr.
	Echo Wall.
	I do.
	What's the first thing we talked about?
	When she gets a promotion.
	It, for some reason, hurts me.
	You plaster a happy smile on your face while seething with bitterness inside.
	Correct.
	Now, I'm not saying that's the sum total of your relationship.
	That's obviously the most sensitive or a very sensitive spot, right?
	But when you say to me, see, you're using words like, well, we're closer, but you didn't reference the fact that you basically were falsifying your entire, you were reversing and falsifying your entire experience with her about, right?
	Right.
	Right?
	So don't give me the action, like, oh, I feel like this.
	Now, you could say, like, I'm not saying you're not close, right?
	But what you could say is, look, Steph, I know I was just telling you that I was falsifying and reversing my experience.
	That's a very unusual area.
	In most areas, blah-de-blah-de-blah, right?
	Yeah, that would have been more accurate.
	Well, it would have been less manipulative.
	And I'm not saying you're trying to consciously manipulate me.
	No.
	But I just gave you this big long speech on adjectives versus empiricism.
	You gave me the empirical evidence and then went straight back to the adjectives with no reverence to the empiricism.
	Which is good.
	Because if you weren't doing that, there'd be no reason to call it.
	And you wouldn't be having anxiety, right?
	Right.
	At least about this, right?
	I feel like I'm going to just keep inadvertently doing that.
	Good.
	No, that's fine.
	That's totally fine.
	That's totally fine.
	I'd like to stop picking my nose from time to time.
	Inadvertently.
	I don't think I need this to understand what Whitaker Chambers is telling.
	I don't need a little brain massage through my sinuses.
	No, listen, it happens.
	Don't worry about it.
	Don't worry about it.
	Because I don't want you to become self-repressive, self-censorious.
	I'm not mad at you.
	I hope you understand that.
	I just can't let it go by.
	Well, I haven't told her that—it's not just career.
	I've actually been in relationships where they double my income and just blow me out of the water.
	That's just one little tiny—it's more of a powder keg, and that career thing was a spark.
	It's pretty much everything about her, especially her family compared to mine.
	And this is the thing, right?
	I'm sorry to interrupt, and I'll not do that right now.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	You have a family, go on.
	Right, and I know that sounds just as petty as anything else, but...
	It's not petty.
	It's not petty.
	You're giving me another adjective.
	Don't worry about that.
	Don't describe.
	Just speak.
	She has two very, very loving parents.
	I've met them both and hung out with them both quite a bit.
	I'm a big fan of them, and no adjectives.
	Empirically speaking, they are awesome in every way.
	And I am jealous.
	I don't have the same support system, and especially with them living halfway across the country, it doubles down on that.
	Don't give me the halfway across the country stuff.
	The second time you've used that excuse.
	It's not the halfway-across-the-country stuff.
	Especially these days with Skype and webcams.
	It's not the halfway-across-the-country stuff.
	That's an excuse and that's a way of avoiding what it is or isn't.
	Her career success is obviously she is responsible for it, but I feel like she had an amazingly good support system Basically from high school through college and throughout her various credentials.
	And she's basically followed the perfect path for, you know, straight out of college.
	So that's why she's doing so well now.
	And that's not uncommon, right?
	Yeah.
	I feel like it is uncommon.
	No, sorry.
	It is uncommon that she gets this kind of support system.
	But if I remember rightly, Bill Gates' father was an intellectual property rights lawyer who was helping him negotiate with IBM about DOS. Well, that helps a little bit.
	Steve Jobs' dad was like the only dad around who didn't spank and confronted abusive parents.
	Well, that helps!
	So, there are a lot of people who have this kind of support.
	Like, there's a rap singer.
	Sorry, I may have contradicted myself there.
	There's a rap artist.
	There's a rap yeller who, you know this, Mama said, knock you out, right?
	And I was just reading.
	I don't know anything about him, so I'm not saying this is healthy or anything like that.
	But where he got the song lyric from was he said, you know, I really want to go out and do great things in rap.
	And his mom said, baby, you just go knock them out.
	You just go knock them out.
	Well, that's kind of...
	Mama said knock you out.
	That's like he's channeling his mom.
	It's one of the reasons why he's successful because he's got that kind of enthusiasm.
	Not this dead-eyed mom who's like, you're never married to nothing in this life or the next, right?
	He's like, you go knock him out.
	You get him, honey.
	And he's like, yeah!
	Right?
	Right.
	So that kind of support system is really essential.
	You didn't build that.
	It's essential for success.
	It's not perfectly required, but it is very, very important.
	So you said that they're amazing in every way.
	And my...
	Parents, by comparison.
	No, hang on, hang on.
	Before we get to your parents.
	Okay.
	Do they know about your family history?
	Mufufu's parents?
	Yeah.
	They know that my parents were divorced.
	Not much more than that.
	Why?
	It's kind of embarrassing.
	No, I get that.
	Of course.
	I mean, because it's inevitable that we take personally the accidents of birth.
	I mean, that's what culture is.
	We take personally the accidents of birth.
	When I was a kid, in my high school, oh God, what I wouldn't have given to have gone on this trip.
	There was a trip to Russia.
	People could go on a trip to Russia.
	This was in the 80s, even before the fall.
	Do you know what I would have given to have gone on that trip?
	But it was completely impossible.
	I mean, we didn't have food, it couldn't possibly, it was completely impossible.
	And, you know, all of the people who went were proud and happy.
	You know, like the guy who showed up, his father was really wealthy, a guy who showed up in my high school with like a really cool car, like a red convertible on his 16th birthday or something.
	Everybody was jealous, like he'd earned it, right?
	Man, good gene pool, you lucky bastard!
	And through that envy, you feel the humiliation of your own beginnings.
	Right.
	Right?
	But of course, as you know, right, I mean, rationally we know.
	I mean, nobody tells you when to leap off the giant spaceship of hanging umbilicals to land in a particular home.
	Oh, missed by that much!
	Missed by the mansion, landed in the hovel, right?
	And you know that it's just a complete accident.
	It says nothing about you, where you came from, except what you survived.
	Right.
	That car example is very good.
	Because I basically bought a 1988 Ford Tempo for $1,000 that I earned picking corn.
	And I was...
	At the time, really happy about that, but I lived in an upper-middle-class school district where everybody got new Mustangs from their parents.
	So I would often bring up, oh, I worked for my car, but it was kind of a piece of crap compared to everybody else's.
	And still, I feel like I was lying to everybody.
	You ever heard that Adam Sandler car?
	I got a piece of shit car.
	Seven different colors.
	Gotta open the door with a coat hanger.
	Anyway.
	Yeah, it was that car.
	And I was like lying to myself.
	I was like, you know, I'm bragging about this.
	But in the inside, I'm like, well, you know, I don't have that privilege that the other kids have.
	So that's what I actually care about.
	Oh, yeah.
	And I was working three jobs when I was 14.
	Yeah.
	I had a paper route.
	I cleaned offices.
	I was a waiter.
	I mean, you had to hustle.
	You had to hustle to get anything.
	And...
	No, I get it.
	I get it.
	And people are like, hey, in the summers I just had to work, just work, work, work.
	Right.
	No tan for the working man.
	So, amazing in every way, except where would I nitpick at the potential in-laws?
	That they haven't asked me about my family.
	Yeah, you're coming into their gene pool, right?
	You're going to be the father of their grandkids.
	And they also are marrying into your parents.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	You got your Christmases, you got your Thanksgivings, you got your Father's Days, you got your July 4th, you got your various holidays and knick-knacks and wingo-wango-wongos, and you got your grandkids that pulls everyone back in like a black hole.
	Yeah.
	They...
	I mean, I'd be paying for background checks.
	You know what I mean?
	I'd be like, okay, we're really going to have a relationship with these people.
	I mean, this is their son.
	I need to know where he came from.
	He's had one failed marriage.
	He better not be breaking my daughter's heart.
	He better not be leaving her as a single mom if things don't work out.
	Right?
	I know my daughter's successful.
	What's his story?
	What's his parents' story?
	What's his upbringing?
	What's his level of self-knowledge?
	I'd be bringing the big daddy moat of fire and alligators and fire made of alligators and alligators on fire around my daughter.
	So, this...
	I'm gonna be as positive as possible, Phil, and I'm gonna say that because they have a happy and successful family, Well, they might be just a little bit less than wary.
	Right.
	A little bit less than cautious.
	A little bit less than really understanding the dysfunction that's around them.
	We're great!
	I bet everyone's great.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Yes, sometimes marriages don't work out.
	I hear asteroids, no, meteors are involved.
	So, I'm sure that won't happen.
	You know what I mean?
	Like, I'd be grilling you in a friendly way.
	But this is my daughter's heart.
	It's her eggs.
	It's her loins.
	It's her wedding ring.
	It's her together foreverness.
	I'd be vetting you like a big vetter.
	So where are they in Understanding that there's going to be some challenges in this for you, especially if they've got such a high-powered daughter.
	I mean this in a very positive way, right?
	I mean, she's attractive, successful, enthusiastic, and positive, and empathetic, and kind, and curious, and so on, right?
	She's a catch, right?
	She is.
	So, Phil, you've got to tell me, how pretty are you?
	So, you're going to ask me one.
	Don't give me this false modesty stuff.
	Yeah.
	How pretty are you?
	Seven or eight.
	Mike, do we have a picture?
	I believe he can see my cat.
	Yeah, we have a cat avatar.
	No picture.
	But the cat's a looker.
	Let me tell you that right now.
	He is.
	Right.
	Eight, right?
	And what's she?
	Seven or eight.
	Seven or eight.
	Okay.
	You know she might hear this, right?
	Probably.
	Okay.
	How many women have you asked out in your life?
	Just asked out.
	Oh.
	Maybe 20, 25, I don't know.
	Okay, 20 or 25.
	Now, Phil, here's your number.
	How many of them have made that face like, what?
	I don't know.
	I think I've been pretty deliberate and cautious about who I've asked out.
	What's the number?
	Don't give me footnotes.
	Just what's the number?
	Of the 20 to 25 women that you've asked out, how many have agreed to go out with you?
	Oh, have agreed to?
	Yeah.
	Most?
	Okay.
	How many would that be?
	15.
	15 out of 20?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Now, of the others who didn't go out with you, did they not go out with you because they weren't attracted to you, or was there something like a boyfriend, a long distance, or some reason that...
	Oh, I tend not to take those explanations as gospel, but...
	No, I get it, but in general, right?
	Yeah, or it's just, you know, I don't think of you that way, you know...
	No, I don't think of you that way, that's a rejection, but, you know, I'm sorry I have a boyfriend.
	I don't think of you that way means you are not enough of a bad boy for me to shred my heart against because I'm a masochist.
	I don't think of you that way means you don't have enough of a beer gut and tattoos to get my mojo rising.
	Too high quality for me to...
	In the monster truck rallies, you never see them drive over a new Maserati, right?
	Right.
	Because they look at the Maserati and they say, I don't think of you that way.
	In order to drive over you, you've got to be a junker.
	So of the women who...
	How many of the five who didn't go out with you did so because they said they weren't attracted to you?
	None, but I'm sure...
	At least one of them was thinking it.
	I don't think they were...
	No, no.
	Empiricism.
	Sorry.
	No mind reading.
	We just don't...
	Just the fact, ma'am.
	Okay.
	Zero.
	Okay.
	Zero.
	Okay.
	So if you asked 20 women out and five of them said no because they were already in relationships or had some other prior commitments that precluded them from dating you, right?
	Then you're a 10.
	Okay.
	Because you're batting 1,000, right?
	Of the women you've asked out who could date you, all of them have dated you.
	Most, about nine out of ten, I'd say, yeah.
	Okay, so then you're a nine.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So the key thing is, hope you hang on to your hair and do a lot of sit-ups.
	You'll be fine.
	Too late on the hair.
	Stay pretty, baby!
	Is the cat going bald while you're getting transplants?
	Look how furry I am!
	I think that you need to sit down with your in-laws.
	When you sit down with your fiancé and say, look, this is what I'm experiencing.
	And do you mind if I just give you a little speech?
	Go for it.
	Okay, so if this lands right, yay, it's a hole in one, right?
	But I'll give you my little speech.
	Phil, you and I start playing tennis together.
	And we're terrible.
	Because racket sports are like hell for everyone when you first start playing.
	Racket sports are like, what the hell?
	How is this even remotely possible to do?
	So you and I start playing tennis together, and you don't mind coming out, but you don't really like playing.
	You just like the way your ass looks in the shorts.
	You like hanging out.
	You like having a latte and hitting on the tennis instructors.
	But I really want to get better, and I play hard, and I learn hard, and I You know, do the sort of focus, not just go out and repetitively bang away at stuff, but, you know, really focus on improving things I'm not good at.
	And focus, learning, focused attention is the only way to improve.
	And I get better.
	Well, I'm not going to want to play with you for very long, right?
	Because it's going to be boring for both of us, right?
	Right.
	And so maybe it's my tennis club and you only get in if you play with me.
	So as I get better, what are your choices?
	If you Want to keep coming.
	Get better?
	Yeah, you've got to step up your game, right?
	You've got to improve.
	Now let's say you don't want to improve.
	Then you are in trouble, right?
	As far as getting access to my tennis club.
	Right.
	So one incentive you might have is...
	To, you know, whenever I say I'm going to go and practice tennis, you might say, oh, I've got something much more fun for us to do, right?
	Like, you don't want me to get better.
	Because we're just on the edge of still being able to play together, you get much better.
	That's it for me, right?
	No more free lattes and hitting on tennis instructors.
	So, if you come from a dysfunctional family, and you're marrying into a functional family, What's going to happen to your perception of your parents' dysfunction?
	Probably exaggerate.
	No, not exaggerate.
	Bring it up to where it should be?
	Yeah.
	I mean, it's not like when the fog clears away, I get supervision.
	I just can see, right?
	So, your parents, knowing that you're married to a functional family, We have only two choices, right?
	They can up their game and do things like apologize.
	And parents who don't apologize, they're just bad parents.
	I apologize to my daughter a couple of times a week at least.
	And so they can either say, oh, you know what, man, he's moving on up to the east side, right?
	He's moving on up.
	And we got to up our game.
	We got to, how are we going to get along with these people?
	I mean, you know, we spent, you spent a night in jail and, you know, like, we yelled at each other, we got divorced, right?
	I mean, how are we, right?
	So they got to up their game.
	Right.
	Now, if they're not going to up their game, which they already should have been doing, right?
	They should have been like, oh man, he's marrying into a functional family?
	We better get our asses into therapy.
	Like, I mean, if we want, you know, if you want to keep playing with me, Phil, you better up your game, right?
	Right.
	So that would be, right?
	So...
	Now, if it's all unconscious, and it usually is, right, particularly the more dysfunctional the family, the more unconscious it is, then what happens is, they, in your head, right, it's the family in your head that counts, because that's the one that's always with you.
	The family in your head is going to freak out about this.
	Because if your real family isn't going to step up, then the family in your head is going to have to step up and they probably don't want to.
	But because they're modeled on largely unconscious people, what they're going to do is put up barriers and put up difficulties and make you feel bad and make you feel anxious and make you feel disaster is going to happen and make you feel the doom.
	It's called growth panic or growth anxiety.
	And Lloyd DeMoss at Psychohistory.com has got a lot of work on this stuff.
	But basically, when societies improve, when societies grow, a lot of people freak the freak out, as the song goes, right?
	So, you've got parents in your head, and you're trying to up your game, and because they're accurately mirroring what your real parents are doing, they're not saying yes, they're not saying no, they're just causing problems.
	Right.
	So the resistance that you feel is the price that less evolved people in your life and in your head are going to pay if you continue to go forward.
	If I hand you fifty dollars and say go buy something and there's a policeman in the store and I know that the fifty dollars is counterfeit I also know the store cloak has a great counterfeit detection little machine going on there.
	How comfortable am I going to feel when you get up to the counter?
	Hello?
	Yeah.
	Are you with me?
	Yeah, I am.
	Yeah, I see what you're saying.
	Right, so now will I be able to say, will I be able to say, Phil, don't spend it, it's counterfeit.
	Likely not.
	No, because there's a policeman in there and I'm just confessing to knowingly handing over counterfeit money, right?
	Right, right.
	Right, so I'm in a bind.
	I need you to not spend that money But I can't tell you why.
	Like, it's sitcom stuff, right?
	Stole him!
	We've got to do her!
	Right?
	And you see all of this stuff happening.
	And the reason why you see this repetitively happening is this is what really happens in people's minds.
	A lot.
	Is this resistance?
	I can't tell you.
	So what am I going to do?
	Well, I'm going to pretend that I... I'm going to kick something over and distract everyone.
	I'm going to pretend that I just stub my toe and fall over in agony.
	I'm going to pull the fire alarm.
	Like, whatever, right?
	But it's not going to be a direct communication.
	Right.
	So, anxiety is an indirect communication about more primitive personalities facing more evolved personalities.
	It's not your anxiety, Phil.
	It's your parents.
	So everything you're saying is making an incredible amount of sense.
	Don't know how to translate this in a practical way to them.
	To who?
	My parents.
	You can't.
	Because if you could, you'd be having a conversation rather than experiencing inchoate anxiety.
	Right.
	They don't want you to have this conversation.
	They don't want you to know the source of your anxiety, which is why the source of your anxiety is unclear.
	The unconscious is not this great Riddled within an enigma like those Chinese Russian dolls that go down to an atom into infinity.
	It's not that complicated.
	Right.
	But the reason it seems complicated is that it reflects the people in our life who don't want us to know the source of our anxiety.
	anxiety.
	So I'm not saying you can't physically have this conversation with your parents.
	I think that's fine.
	I'm a big fan of, you know, if you're not in any danger, then go talk to people, right?
	And you're not in danger as far as I understand it.
	So you can have this conversation with them.
	But the fact that your anxiety is so obscure to you, the source of it, That's generally a measure of how well that conversation is going to go.
	I'm not saying it's perfect or absolute, but it's general.
	Yeah.
	So that's one conversation.
	And the reason why I'm saying that is that your anxiety has to do with win-lose, right?
	Right.
	But in going into this family, how are you, as Phil, losing?
	You're not.
	So then the first place you look around is to say, okay, well, if I go into this functional family, who loses?
	And the answer's not too hard to figure out.
	I mean, once you get the framework, right?
	It isn't.
	It's really hard to figure out until you get the framework.
	But once you get the framework and say, okay, well, if I'm feeling anxious about progress, which I'm happy about, then who loses?
	Right?
	When I was dating, when I achieved my first real success in business.
	The woman I was dating.
	My very first office.
	My very first office.
	Of the company.
	I was chief technical officer of that.
	I'd co-founded.
	We grew it.
	We got office space.
	I got my very first office.
	I was damn proud of that.
	Damn proud of that.
	The woman comes in to the office.
	Do you know what she says?
	She says, well, that's a nice view of the parking lot, isn't it?
	Oh, man.
	No, but she was right.
	She was right to say that.
	And I was wrong not to listen to it.
	Because she was very clearly saying, if you succeed, I lose.
	She had to level up with my success.
	She had to downgrade my success in order to keep me small and captured.
	So what would have been her way of getting around her problem?
	Of having to level herself up or level you down?
	Well, honesty.
	She would have said something like, I can't believe...
	Your success is fantastic.
	You've worked really hard.
	You've earned it.
	I know how hard you've worked, how much you've traveled, all your 60, 70 hours a week.
	I know how hard you've worked at this.
	And I'm not proud of it.
	I'm not happy about it.
	But I feel awful.
	I feel scared.
	I feel angry.
	I feel resentful.
	I feel I can't match it.
	And I feel, if I can't match it, you're going to leave me.
	And you don't think that would be worse than the alternative of simply trying to find some way of showing...
	Do you know how much I would respect that?
	Okay.
	Even at the time.
	Obviously not as evolved then as I am now.
	But even at the time, I would have respected that.
	Because we could have had a great conversation about that.
	And it would not have taken away my success.
	My success would have provoked then a very important conversation where we could both seriously and significantly have grown.
	I see.
	One real quick question.
	So you talked about the parents in my head versus the parents that actually physically exist.
	If I'm unable to...
	Sorry, I'm a little hung up on this.
	If I'm unable to actually approach them about stepping up their game, which I'm probably not.
	I mean, let's face it.
	I don't even say I love you.
	No, you can approach them.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Let's just say that it's not going to happen because I just don't feel I have that rapport right now.
	I guess I'm just going to have to be at peace with the parents in my head somehow so that I don't go forward feeling like I am a victim of circumstance, that I have that Disparity, as you talked about earlier, between what's real and what my expectations are that creates my own anxiety.
	Do you see where I'm going with this?
	Is it even important for me to make peace with my parents?
	It's a great question, and I can sort of answer it briefly in language, though it's a long process.
	Yeah.
	The parents in your head are an adaptation, whereas the dysfunction in your real parents is based upon a refusal to adapt.
	And so the parents in your head are much more flexible than the parents in your life.
	You can reason with and negotiate with the parents in your head.
	Because they are an adaptation.
	Whereas the dysfunctions in your parents, I assume, is a lack of flexibility, a lack of adaptation, a rigidity, right?
	Right.
	So, let's say you go to the parents in your life, you have a conversation about this, it goes really badly.
	Or you don't have a conversation with it, which I suggest you do, but the parents in your head...
	I'm trying to think of the best way to put it The parents in your head can be negotiated with They're there to help you.
	They were there to help you.
	And there is a reaction to people who weren't there to help you.
	I'm not saying your parents never wanted to help you, but the provocation of defenses, and I think your primary defense is self-erasure, which is very common.
	And tragic, right?
	I don't understand because it's common, it's not tragic, but they're there to help you.
	And they want to help you.
	And so they will adapt to a better circumstance, and they also don't want to spend the rest of their time in life.
	You know, you always have these, the ghost cannot leave the scene of the crime, right?
	Until, this is so common in horror movies, the ghost cannot leave the scene of the crime until the crime is solved, right?
	Right.
	Okay, well this is exactly what I've been talking about for eight years.
	Go figure out the crime.
	Go solve the crime.
	Go find out who's responsible.
	Go talk to them.
	Go confront them.
	Get a confession.
	If you can.
	And then the crime is solved and the ghost can bear peace.
	And the less the crime is remembered, the longer the ghost has to stay.
	The more unconscious the crime.
	In other words, the earlier the crime, and this is why childhood, and this is why children's ghosts tend to be even more stuck and terrifying.
	The earlier the crime, the stronger the defense.
	And this is why everybody says, everybody wants to watch these shows where they solve murders, solve murders, solve murders.
	Bones, right?
	It's like 9,000 seasons or something, right?
	Right.
	And it's because...
	We all have, almost all of us have, ancient crimes with ghosts that are stuck in our head.
	And the crimes, solving crimes releases the ghost.
	There's a therapy called IFS, Internal Family Systems Therapy, which may be helpful if this approach resonates with you.
	Okay.
	But your inner parents are not dependent upon the good behavior of your outer parents.
	Okay.
	Thank you, Stefan.
	Thank you.
	I appreciate that very much.
	Great call.
	And let us know how it goes, okay?
	Can do.
	Thanks, Phil.
	Thank you, Phil.
	Up next is Aaron.
	Aaron wrote in and said,"...while discussing anarchism with a member of my family, I was presented with an argument that troubled me.
	What is to be done to prevent a quote-unquote Alexander the Great, not my description, from amassing an army and taking over by force?
	Alternately, what is to prevent an outside statist agency with no compunction against conquest from invading and taking over?" Well, great question.
	Did you want to add to that?
	I actually don't really have anything to add at the moment.
	All right.
	This is generally talked about in Practical Anarchy.
	So Everyday Anarchy and Practical Anarchy, which are two free books available at freedomaderadio.com slash free.
	I have talked about this in more detail, so I'll go over it very briefly.
	Have you ever seen a speech...
	Footage of Hitler.
	Sure.
	Right.
	This is crazy stuff, right?
	Spitfire and all that.
	Now, do you think that if Barack Obama had taken that oratorical style that he would currently be in the White House?
	In another 20 years, maybe, but not now.
	Now, right?
	No.
	No, most likely not.
	No, he wouldn't be.
	In fact, he would be viewed as insane, right?
	Yeah, yeah, certainly by me.
	No, no, by the vast majority of people would look at somebody who was screaming about the need to destroy the vermin around them and to scourge, like, purge the society of its corruptive influences and you get living room in Europe.
	Like, somebody screaming that at the top of his lungs would be viewed as insane, right?
	Yeah, I would definitely think so.
	So why wasn't he considered insane in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s?
	I don't really know for sure, but I would, I mean, it seemed like it was kind of a, between an incremental kind of, he kind of like had an incremental influence, and plus with the way Germany was treated after World War I, I think the combination of those two things kind of helped push him up into power.
	No, I mean, I think those are factors, but I think more fundamentally, and I'm not trying to, I say more fundamentally like that's an argument, so I know it's not, but I'll make a very sort of brief case, which is that he didn't look crazy to Germans because that's how they'd been raised.
	Okay, yeah.
	The pedagogy, and Alice Miller writes about this, and again, Lloyd DeMoss writes about this, The Origins of War and Child Abuse.
	I just finished reading the book, finally, after years, but he makes a very strong case for this.
	That the reason why he would be viewed as insane in modern America, but was not viewed as insane in Germany in the 1920s, And 1930s was because parenting is different in America than it was in Germany.
	German parenting was exceptionally violent.
	Well, wasn't it also pretty socialized back in the 20s and 30s?
	You mean the German economy?
	German childbearing.
	I mean, wouldn't...
	Wasn't it like, you know, send your kids to our schools?
	Yeah, kindergarten is a German phrase, but when I say that's how they were raised, that doesn't just mean by their parents.
	But this was the priests, you know, were screaming at them, and the kindergarten teachers were screaming at them, and the parents were screaming at them.
	So when Hitler comes along and screams at them, he doesn't look crazy.
	Fair enough.
	But...
	Now, sorry, when Americans look at Jeremiah Wright, it looks a little crazy, right?
	But he probably doesn't look that crazy to black people, because in the black culture in America, child raising is more violent than it is certainly in the Asian culture and in the white culture.
	And so, you know, when you have rap music, it doesn't appear that aggressive because this is how a lot of black kids are raised, it's with a lot of aggression.
	So, you know, that Eminem phenomenon where, you know, you grew up in a very abusive household and ends up with a lot of aggression, talks to people who themselves experience a lot of aggression.
	But it's a subculture, it's not the main culture.
	And so...
	That's important to understand.
	Because parenting has improved, or parenting is certainly better in North America now than it was in Germany in the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s.
	And so, someone like Hitler would not gain power now.
	And so this is sort of an answer to the question, well...
	How could a warlord take over?
	Well, first of all, everybody would see that warlord for who he is.
	Yeah, and I have brought that point up.
	Okay, that's number one.
	Number two, if this was a concern that people would, right, so there would be, I assume, until the whole world is peaceful, there would be weapons manufacturers in a tree society, right?
	Well, yeah, I used to work for one.
	Okay.
	Wait, free society?
	Where?
	Where?
	I'm coming!
	And people would be scared of that weapons manufacturer, right?
	Generally, yeah.
	So nobody would invest or buy the products of a weapons manufacturer who didn't guarantee the safety and security and trackability of his weapons, right?
	Perhaps.
	I mean, we don't really have that now.
	I mean...
	Well, no, because it's the government, right?
	Well, firearm regulation is weird.
	You can track weapons through serial numbers and things like that, but that's only...
	No, no, no.
	I'm talking...
	Sorry.
	I'm talking army weapons, not like sidearms.
	Oh, no.
	Because sidearms would be a counter to the central warlord, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	I mean, I don't know if it's apocryphal or not, but apparently the hero, he just says, well, we can't invade America, there'd be a gun behind every blade of grass, right?
	300 million guns in America.
	It's tough to take it over, right?
	Yeah, it definitely prevented invasion, I'm sure, more than once.
	Right, so things like, you know, tanks and aircraft carriers and missiles and scuds and all that, I mean, this would all have to be very closely tracked because nobody would want to invest in a business that would end up taking over their economy, right?
	Right.
	And that's kind of the thing that I was thinking.
	I mean, because, you know, you could have insurance companies and things like that would probably kind of take over kind of the defense of things, I would think.
	And they'd have to guarantee to their customers that the weapons would only be used offensively, never defensively.
	I don't know exactly how they would do that.
	Because, of course, if I could solve every problem in a free society, I might as well be in charge of it, which is the whole point, right?
	Nobody can ever solve these problems individually.
	But what we do have to do is point out that a decentralization of power and economic incentives is the only chance that human beings have for sustainable freedom.
	So the first decentralization of power means that everyone's competing For providing the best solutions to social problems.
	That's a decentralization of power.
	Now, incentives means that the economic incentives are pointing the right way.
	People don't automatically respond to virtue, but they do respond to incentives, particularly economic incentives.
	So if you've got your economic incentives aligned the right way, and you have a decentralization of power and authority, that's the best chance that we have for freedom.
	Right.
	But what about...
	I mean, my...
	My concern, I mean, I understand that...
	Just be the devil's advocate.
	Just be whoever you were debating with and ask me directly.
	So what about that transition period?
	I mean, because you have...
	It's not everything that's going to go to free society all at once.
	You're going to have...
	It'll be in pockets, more than likely.
	So you'd end up with a little anarchist pocket over here, and then maybe a communist pocket over there with some kind of like...
	You know, semi-socialistic, fascistic, you know, little conclave over here and never shall they meet, you know, type of thing.
	And what's going to stop, you know, that fascistic, you know, community over there from, you know, allowing themselves or, you know, building up enough resources to come take your resources in this free society?
	Well, there is a tipping point of general social ethics that, like, there's a tipping point of general social ethics.
	So, for instance, one of the things that's going to keep free societies free is they're going to be unbelievably productive relative to non-free societies.
	They're going to have better technology, they're going to have better weaponry, they're going to have better organization, they're going to have more competition.
	So, There were times in human history, of course, and there still are, with pockets of slavery and non-slavery areas too, right?
	Still exist, sure.
	Yeah, yeah, but I mean, we're talking sort of, I mean, slavery was the norm throughout most of human history, and then there was a transition point for a century or two where there were slave-owning countries and non-slave-owning countries, right?
	So then the question is, why didn't the non-slave-owning countries take over the slave-owning countries and impose slavery?
	Because the slave-owning countries sucked!
	They were terrible!
	Terrible economic productivity.
	Why?
	Because they've got slaves!
	So they're incredibly not functional, not valid economically.
	You know, we could have an economy where growth would be 10 to 15 percent a year and the environment Would be improving.
	Environmental impact would be diminishing.
	There's no reason that can't be sustainably achieved.
	Whereas, you know, a communist country or communist area, I mean, collapses.
	So, you know, why would...
	It's like saying, why don't really weak people go and take the heavyweight championship title?
	Because the guys are really strong and they're not, right?
	So that is one way of looking at it that I think would be helpful.
	The other thing, as far as the transition goes, I don't know.
	Look, I don't know how the transition is going to go in any kind of detail.
	Of course not, right?
	But I do know the general methodology and I do know the general approach.
	And the general approach is Keep children as free from abusive influences as humanly possible.
	Keep children as free from abusive influences as humanly possible.
	You say to people who have abusive parents, well, go talk to them.
	But remember, if they really are committed to being abusive, you don't have to see them.
	And you don't have the right to expose your children to their abusive behaviors, right?
	The grandparents, right?
	Right.
	Why do I say that?
	Because I don't like war, and I don't like imprisonment, and I don't like national debt.
	And the best way to accelerate the progress of humanity is to draw a big fiery line between past abusers and future children.
	Because when those children grow up free from the influence of abuse, they will be the foundations of a free society.
	And the degree to which people are willing to shield their children from abusive people, whether those abusive people are relatives or public school teachers or priests or mean atheists,
	The degree to which people are willing to shield their children from the effects of abuse and from themselves as parents of the effects of abuse, because you can't really be a great parent when your own parent is yelling at you and saying mean things and threatening you and so on, right?
	So the degree to which we can just draw a line down the middle of society and say, okay, the abuse stops here.
	If people are willing to give up their abusive tendencies, get help, yeah, they're welcome, fantastic, wonderful, let's be a big happy family.
	If they're not, well, I can't expose my children to abuse.
	I can't.
	And I can't expose my children to dysfunctional parenting, which is what happens when I expose myself to my parents' abuse, if I'm a parent.
	Or whoever.
	So the degree to which people are actually willing to commit to shield the next generation from abusers, It is the degree to which people take philosophy and virtue seriously and are willing to be staunch guardians and shepherds of the freedoms so needed by the future.
	So, once we have raised a generation, and it doesn't mean everyone, but some reasonable proportion, once we have raised a generation of children free from the influences of abuse, We will have a free society within the next generation or two.
	And that means a free world.
	Now, the only thing that's going to make or break that is people's commitment to keeping abusers away from their children.
	If somebody was coughing up blood around your baby, wouldn't you grab your baby and get the hell out of there?
	Of course you would.
	I wouldn't.
	But people have this weird thing like abuse is like, oh well, you know, it's not the same.
	It is the same.
	Right?
	Whatever that guy is coughing up and sneezing all over your baby, it could have significant harmful effects upon your baby's health.
	Same thing is true of abuse.
	Just look at bombinthebrain.com for more details on that.
	So, at some point, right, when we have enough peaceful parents around, Crime will virtually vanish and people won't want power over others because they won't have these bottomless emotional dysfunctional needs and miseries and depressions and unhappinesses that they need to keep pumping up their brain chemistry with the artificial high of political power.
	And these aren't just theories.
	I'm just like, oh, if I pull this thing out of my ass and you believe it, look, my ass has produced freedom.
	I mean, this is scientifically validated, well understood, well known, particularly in expert circles.
	So, that's the only way it's going to happen.
	I'm telling you.
	Science backs me up on this.
	The data backs me up on this.
	You know, civilizations don't die, and they don't get killed.
	They commit suicide by failing to extend their core values to everyone.
	I mean, ancient empires died because they failed to extend citizenship to slaves.
	And modern societies are dying because they failed to extend the non-aggression principle to children, committing suicide.
	I mean, particularly the West.
	We can't be killed from outside.
	We can only self-slaughter.
	No, I agree with that, for sure.
	I'm sorry?
	I agree.
	We're doing that as we speak.
	Oh yeah, on steroids.
	So that's how it's going to happen.
	Now the details of that, it's not up to me.
	Because the details are up to the will and choice of every individual.
	Everybody knows, deep down, that it is wrong to expose your children to abusers.
	And there are some people, tragically, in the world, Who will not back down from their commitment to abuse.
	They're too far gone.
	Unrecoverable.
	They have become hurting robots.
	So, what do we do about those people that are, because a significant portion of those people are in positions of power, influence, and authority right now?
	Right, and I can't change that.
	I can't change that.
	All I can do is keep them away from my daughter.
	So how do we keep those people away from our kids if they have all the big guns?
	Well, I don't have them over to my house.
	I mean, what else do you want me to do?
	Right?
	I can't snap my fingers and get rid of the opinion with a gun known as the law, but I can keep people who are emotionally harmful away from my house.
	Okay.
	I don't build big fires inside the house and I don't have mean people over.
	And if everyone did that, we'd be free in a generation.
	But I get that people are going to need to see it working a lot before they make the...
	Not everybody wants to be first through the door in the action movie, right?
	But if...
	If we were all to do that, if we were all to just accept that that's what's necessary and that's what's needed to be done to save the world, that it's all around personal choices around how we influence our children and who we let influence our children, we'd be done.
	And it would be done shockingly quickly.
	But there would also be huge backlash and social upheaval, of course, right?
	I think in any change you're going to have upheaval of a social nature.
	And I'm a kind of rip the band out of kind of guy.
	Like I'm like Just get it done.
	But, you know, obviously I've been making this case for eight years and certainly, you know, hundreds of thousands of people have committed to not hitting their children and peaceful parenting as a result of listening to this show, which is fantastic and is wonderful.
	And, you know, I'm doing as much as I humanly can do to bring this transition about.
	But it is up to the choice of every individual.
	And everybody wants someone else To free them.
	I do too!
	Oh man!
	Me?
	Come on. - It would be much easier. - So that's how we do it.
	Now how all those details work out, I have no idea.
	No, of course not.
	And there's no way to know.
	Because there's no way to know how many people are going to make the decision to protect their children.
	There's no way to know how many people are going to wake up and say, You know what?
	I am going to do that.
	I am going to keep abusive, toxic, destructive people away from my children.
	And as a parent, also away from me.
	Because I can't parent well if I'm traumatized.
	I don't know how many people are going to do that.
	I don't know how many people are going to go into therapy.
	I make the case.
	I make the case in almost every show.
	And hundreds of thousands of people Have accepted that and changed.
	Now, I don't know when we're going to be free, but as sure as hell no, we're a couple of hundred thousand families closer.
	And if they have two kids, half a million, six hundred thousand kids not being hit, yeah, that's pretty good.
	Not bad for eight years with your support.
	Because of your support, in fact, that's what your donations buy you.
	But I don't know how many people are going to make that decision, so I can't possibly predict any of that.
	The only thing I can control is how persuasively I can make this case.
	That definitely answers my question.
	You know, there's this funny thing that people have.
	If you're raised peacefully, somehow you're easy pickings.
	I'm not sure where that mentality comes from.
	Oh, it's this idea that kids need to be toughened up, right?
	I don't necessarily disagree with that.
	I just disagree with what toughening up means.
	Well, the reason that people have this idea that if you raise children peacefully, they'll be suckers for every sociopath with a submachine gun who comes riding over the hill in a flaming motorcycle is because we have almost no military models Outside of statism.
	And statism requires lots of idiots to vacantly shoot at whoever points.
	Or shoot at whatever someone's pointing at.
	And so, obedience and vacuity is fundamental to the statist military.
	And all that tells you is that that's the worst possible way to wage war that can be imagined.
	Because it's the government, right?
	And so it's the worst possible way to do it that can be imagined.
	So you break children's will and you make them obedient and you beat them up, and so they become good soldiers.
	Which means good soldiers in a government situation, which means bad soldiers relative to a free market situation.
	So, anyway.
	Just wanted to mention that.
	But it's not true.
	People who are raised in a healthy and empathetic and positive way are very strong when facing down immoral people.
	Because they're not raised frightened and broken and intimidated and angry.
	Well, I feel like I was raised pretty well, and I have to agree.
	Although, I will have to admit to being one of those vacuous individuals who participated in statist warfare at one point in time.
	Yeah, I was...
	Right, so they didn't want a whole lot of your innovative feedback when it came to obeying orders, right?
	No, actually, and I tested that theory towards the end.
	The last couple of years, I made it kind of hard on myself.
	Not a whole lot of...
	These are my thoughts.
	What do you think?
	No, no, not a lot of that.
	Right, whereas a lot of the more successful armies in history have tended to be decentralized, right?
	I mean, this is the grand irony.
	This is the grand horrifying irony of the American Revolutionary War versus the current wars in the Middle East.
	You know, I mean, they won against the British by being insurgents.
	And now they're losing in the Middle East because they're the British Army and the Middle East are now the insurgents.
	The Middle East guys are now the private army and they're now the British Army and they're losing.
	Ah, how much full circle have we come.
	They were a non-state army who beat a state army and achieved their liberation from invasion.
	And now they're a state army losing to a non-state army who's trying to liberate them from invasion.
	Anyway.
	I actually hadn't thought of it.
	It's tragic.
	Listen man, do you mind if we have a read of the books and if there's stuff that's still like really confusing or unclear in what I've written, will you give us a shout back?
	Yeah, yeah, for sure.
	I'm working through UPB right now, so I've got probably another month before I get onto anything else.
	Quite a workout, so good for you.
	It's a start.
	If you get to those other books, just let me know if there's stuff that's unclear.
	Obviously, feel free to hand them out because they're free to whoever.
	I already have.
	It's not like they answer everything, but hopefully they at least give a framework for future discussions, so let me know if there's stuff that's still unclear.
	For sure.
	And I do have a quick question in related to reading.
	I've been going through your Truth About series a bit, and you talk about Aristotle now and then, Aristotelian theory, and I was wondering where you would suggest starting with Aristotle.
	I mean, I've always been pretty partial to Nicomachean Ethics, but you have to read it slowly, because he's not, well, he's, we don't know what Aristotle wrote, we just have a bunch of notes.
	So it's not like It's not well-written stuff, and it's very dense.
	Yeah, I mean, so you've got to read it slowly, but it's definitely worth a read.
	I mean, I took a whole course on Aristotle, and a whole year, a full year course on Aristotle, and we had these, you know, you've got to build these logic trees out of every paragraph and stuff.
	It's really dense and complex.
	But it's, you know, since I think ethics is the most important part of philosophy, that's certainly what I'd suggest starting.
	Okay.
	Cool.
	All right.
	Thanks, man.
	Appreciate it.
	And I think we can do one more.
	Appreciate your time.
	Thank you, man.
	Well, up next is John.
	And John wrote in and said, Do you think it will be beneficial for atheists to impersonate the best qualities of religion?
	For instance, should atheists organize into churches, create holidays, create their own traditions for marriage, funerals, coming-of-age ceremonies, etc.?
	Should atheists become more organized?
	Well, I think that would be a fine idea.
	I mean, I think they'd have to be...
	I mean, you couldn't really do it based on atheism, because atheism is, you know, a rejection, right?
	But I think that community is very important.
	Study after study shows that.
	Loneliness is as bad for you as smoking and having a sedentary lifestyle and so on.
	We're social animals.
	To continue the Aristotelian theme, Aristotle said that he who can live alone is either a beast or a god, but not a man.
	We are social animals.
	So I think it would be great if on Sunday mornings, atheists got together and talked about philosophy.
	We do it Wednesday nights and Saturday nights, but whenever that would happen.
	I think that would be great.
	But, of course, the challenge is that atheism is to narrow a belief system to ensure compatibility, right?
	Because you can be an atheist and an anarcho-capitalist and you can be an atheist and a communist.
	But that doesn't mean that your beliefs are even remotely compatible.
	In fact, they're violently in opposition.
	You can be a socialist, you can be a libertarian, all these things you can be, and be an atheist.
	And I guess you could be an atheist and a cannibal.
	It doesn't mean when somebody says, I'd like to have you over for dinner, that you should say yes.
	So I think that it would be better...
	If it wasn't sort of atheist meetups, but philosophy gatherings, philosophy meetups.
	And so, yeah, I think that would be highly beneficial.
	Of course, that's how philosophy started.
	And I've tried, you know, in my own small way to try and create these kind of meetups where people can chat about philosophy with me, right, at least.
	And, you know, some people certainly continue the conversations with other people that they've met.
	On the Free Domain Radio Message Board or on Facebook or whatever.
	It's lots of people meeting up and getting together to talk about philosophy.
	And I think that's great.
	I think it is something that should be pursued.
	I mean, every time that you try to create a movement, everybody, well, not everybody, lots of people say that you're a bad guy, right?
	I mean, what a negative something, right?
	And that's natural, right?
	I mean, especially if the movement is skeptical of or critical of previous belief systems.
	So there's a little bit of, you know, yeah, grit your teeth for the inevitable hailstorm of, you know, oh, it's a crazy atheist religion or, you know, whatever they say, right?
	I mean, that's natural.
	But if you can sort of shrug that off and say, well, yeah, we have tribes and we have opposite tribes and, you know, we're not that compatible.
	In fact, we may be in significant opposition over fundamental issues.
	Particularly whether it's win-lose in tribes.
	You know, you win an atheist, for the most part, the religious lose one and vice versa.
	And so the sort of zero-sum games as far as that does create significant opposition.
	Because, you know, lots of money can be involved in traditions and belief systems that are associated with ethics tend to be the most volatile of all.
	And so I think it would be great for people to get together and talk about philosophy.
	I don't know that atheism would be enough, because there's a lot of, boy, I still don't believe in God, and now what, right?
	And that's why, to me, atheism...
	Unless you're out there proselytizing, right?
	If you're out there really trying to get people to think more critically about religion, that's one thing.
	But I don't think that the mere denial of the validity of a deity...
	is enough to found a movement on because there's so much else that goes into belief systems.
	And of course, lots of people become atheists for lots of different reasons.
	Some people become atheists because they've seen bad things in their church.
	Some people become atheists because their father who was religious is mean.
	Some people become atheists because they want to substitute political power for where God used to be, which is sort of the socialist, communist model.
	Some people become atheists as a result of clear thinking.
	Some people become atheists because they had a mean priest or the congregation was unpleasant.
	Some people become atheists because they stumble across a website that points out contradictions in the Bible.
	Some people become atheists because they learn more about other religions and how much in common their religion has with other religions, which means the sort of solely divine inspired thing is...
	Some people become religious because they look at political tensions around the world and see the degree to which they are sometimes founded upon organized religion.
	I could sort of go on, right?
	But none of these things create particular compatibilities for, you know, let's get together and talk about there's, you know, it's day 433.
	There's still no deity.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
	I've been kind of developing my own learnings.
	Thought process about...
	I guess we can call it agriculturalism.
	Like, basing our lives upon the seasons.
	Like, people should...
	Not really atheism, but it's like people should focus on their lives growing food and, you know, exchanging food and stuff like that.
	Well, and that's...
	I think that's sort of...
	Atheism therefore, right?
	Yeah.
	Right?
	And I don't think you can go from atheism to therefore.
	I think what you can say is you can extract the principles by which people say there's no God and you can use those same principles to explain to them why there's no government.
	Right?
	I mean, governments...
	Have a geographical location where the majority of people accept their dominion, but the same thing is true of a particular religion.
	Government have their places of worship, and so do religions.
	Governments have their songs and their rituals, and so do religions.
	And governments create opposite classes of people, rulers and rule, and so do most, if not, well not all, but most religions and priests who have Wisdom or people who witness miracles or who wrote the holy text or those who don't, who just have to obey all those things.
	Same thing with governments, of course, with the rulers and the rules.
	The thing itself cannot be proven to exist, whether it's government or God's, but the only thing that keeps these beliefs aloft and gives them power is people's belief in their existence.
	And so that's very much in common there as well.
	And, of course, governments gain their money by threatening people with jail, and a lot of religions gain their money by threatening people with either hell in the afterlife or ostracism in the here and now, which is a very cruel and destructive thing to do, because as social animals, to ostracize people for a lack of adherence to irrational beliefs is really to strike them to the quick.
	Irrational beliefs, you know, it's a little different, but So, you could sort of say, okay, so you don't believe in gods, but why do you believe in a government?
	And, you know, it's funny because atheists will say, well, you see, without...
	Religious people say, without God, there are no ethics.
	Everybody runs wild, right?
	It's crazy.
	No rules.
	And that's what people say who are religious.
	They say, without God, all is permitted.
	Nothing is...
	All virtue becomes an opinion.
	And atheists say, well, good heavens, no.
	We don't need religion to be moral.
	Good heavens!
	In fact, if you're only moral because you wish to get to heaven or wish to avoid hell, it's scarcely morality.
	You're just being bribed and threatened.
	And then you go to these atheists and you say, well, we need to have no government.
	There's no such thing as government.
	It's a fantasy.
	It's an illusion.
	It's irrational.
	Splitting of humanity into rulers and rules.
	And they say, good heavens!
	We can't possibly have that, because without government, there'd be no rules.
	Without government, it'd be a war of all against all.
	Without government, everything virtuous would simply be an opinion.
	It's like, isn't that just what the religious people said to you about God?
	Yes!
	But it's different, because churches have stained glass, and governments have flags.
	Totally different.
	So, you could use those sort of same principles.
	And...
	Extract rational anarchism from atheists, but that would be challenging for a lot of people.
	Yeah, I had that problem with some people I talked to.
	I bring up that pretty much government is just a superstition in many ways.
	They have all the time seen through it.
	Yeah, and it's a very difficult conversation to have with people, because atheists pride themselves on their rationality.
	But then when you extract and apply exactly the same principles by which they found there's no God to show them that there's no government, they freak out, right?
	They're statheists, right?
	I mean, they're statist atheists, and you've chased God constantly.
	Out of the church and doubled his strength and placed him in the parliament or the capital.
	And it's tough because, you know, it means it's not principled, right?
	It's just a reaction.
	And it's funny for me, like, I don't know who pays Richard Dawkins.
	I mean, he obviously makes a lot of money from his books and his documentaries and so on.
	And I like good old Dickie D. I really do.
	I mean, he sort of reminds me of all that is...
	Annoying and wonderful about England and British culture.
	But, you know, the reality is he condescends to priests, but at least priests to some degree get their money through voluntarism, whereas, of course, a significant proportion of scientists get their money directly from the state, and it's an involuntary relationship.
	I mean, if priests got their money from taxation, atheists would be going mental.
	How can you force us to fund people who are propagandizing others, things we don't even believe in, the violent freedom of...
	But the fact that government scientists are paid by enforced taxation and are often propagandists of pretty vile degree, it's different.
	It's completely different.
	Because the work scientists do is more rational.
	It's like, well, yeah, but the process by which they get paid, if this was applied to priests, you'd be appalled.
	But the fact that it's applied to scientists, you're fine with that.
	Eh, follow the money.
	But was there anything else you wanted to add to this?
	Nothing I can really think of right now, no.
	I was just curious what you think about atheist, George, and research, and you pretty much answered my question.
	Okay, great.
	Well, I hope that helps.
	Do we have a short question, Mike?
	Nope, the other caller dropped off.
	I was a bit nervous, so that's it for tonight.
	Wait, what?
	Wait, are you saying...
	Did I get to the...
	You finished the show, Steph.
	Is that the end of the caller list?
	Doesn't this mean that basically the universe is about to end?
	They looked up, and one by one, the stars were going out.
	It's, I think, from The Six Billion Names of God by Arthur C. Clarke.
	But, wow, we got to the end of a show?
	I know.
	This is what the end of time looks like.
	Wow, good for us.
	Do you have a pretend caller?
	I can pull up a mailbag question if you like.
	I can get a mailbag question.
	Mike, that was good.
	Holy shit, you sound totally different.
	Wait!
	You can do two laughs at the same time?
	This should be Mike's two-laugh show.
	I can harmonize with myself.
	Go ahead, John.
	What's your second question?
	I was talking to somebody today, and it's fine, but I know people that they don't believe in God, they're atheists, but that they believe in ghosts.
	Like, how do I convince them That's like saying the same thing.
	You don't believe in God, but somehow you believe in ghosts.
	It doesn't really make sense to me.
	Now, John, I would totally answer this except for one thing.
	That the whole purpose is I can never finish a show.
	So if I answer this question, I will actually finish a show.
	I just got six million texts from people who don't want the world to end for me to absolutely refrain from answering your question.
	Oh, actually, it wasn't even a question, was it?
	You're just making an observation.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah, I mean, you know, irrationality is mostly, unless it's dealt with at its core, unless it's dealt with at the basis and the sort of the family, the religion, the history, the culture, unless you really go to the core of it, it's like a balloon.
	You push one end in, the other end just pushes out.
	Oh, I've got no God here.
	Well, I've got more government over there and so on.
	And really tamping down this whack-a-mole and getting to the root of the irrationality is really tough.
	It's really tough.
	I mean, just the very idea of having a society without a centralized authority.
	Now, people can get rid of it in the church, then they just need more of it in the state.
	They can get rid of it in the state, they need more of it in the church.
	It's really, really impossible.
	Well, how are things going to run without centralized authority?
	Oh, yeah, because they've been doing great now, you know?
	Oh, man, it's crazy.
	But, yeah, I think it is.
	I mean, ghosts.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, ghosts, I mean...
	I think ghosts is driven by two things, the ideas behind ghosts.
	One is a desire that evil people who don't get caught are miserable.
	The murderer who doesn't get caught is miserable.
	And if you don't believe in hell, and if more pantheists, then you at least believe that his soul is going to be tortured for all eternity.
	He's going to hang around the gravesite and frighten strangers until...
	Someone finds out who the murderer was and exhumes, whatever, right?
	So it's this idea, because, you know, so many evil people get away with so much.
	And not only do they get away with it, massively rewarded by it.
	So many evil people just do wonderfully in the world.
	And there's this resentful part of people that doesn't want to take practical steps to reduce the power of evil people, but just want to fantasize about vengeance, right?
	I mean, I watched the trailer for it as a new Cinderella movie directed by Kenneth Branagh, who totally should have made an appearance as Henry V. Hank Sank!
	In Cinderella.
	But, um, I may watch it and do a review, but, you know, basically the story always tends to be the same, which is abused, abused, abused, psychotic break.
	I have a fairy godmother.
	My mice have turned into horses.
	Lizards have turned into people.
	I can ride on a pumpkin.
	The most handsome man in the universe wants me and only me.
	It's just too much abuse and the brain breaks and goes into fantasies of vengeance and Cinderella is just another vengeance story where she wins and her sisters, half-sisters and stepmother are humiliated and it's It's tragic how often we see this.
	And all of this arises out of just an unwillingness to take the steps to be free.
	And you end up with...
	Most art tends to be revenge fantasies from people who are thwarted in their own lives.
	And if you look at a lot of artists, you'll see this.
	Robert E. Howard, the guy who wrote Conan.
	Conan, ultimate he and warrior of all eternity, right?
	I mean, Robert E. Howard killed himself when his mom died.
	Not the most manly thing I've ever heard of.
	Mommy's gone.
	Well, so am I. Don't.
	Wait, Mommy, I'm coming.
	I mean, that's, you see this a lot, that art, particularly exaggerated hyper art, hyper masculine art and so on, hyper feminine art, it tends to bleed people.
	It tends to be vampiric.
	It tends to take away their initiative.
	By soaking them in fantasy.
	And this is one of the reasons why when religion is in the ascendancy, societies tend to stagnate.
	Because people don't take practical steps to achieve justice in this world.
	Because they just say, you know, wait for a while, God will do it for us.
	And so it tends to mean that people are more prone to postponing and procrastinating, improving their immediate surroundings.
	Because, yeah, God's going to take care of it.
	God's gonna take care of it.
	You don't walk across a desert if a helicopter's coming to take you.
	And it's the same thing with Cinderella.
	I mean, if she can lose herself in these fantasies of specialness and magic and vengeance and success at the expense of everyone else and so on, then she's gonna be that much less likely to actually work hard to improve her own circumstances.
	And that's why I try to avoid...
	I've always tried to avoid revenge fantasies when I'm writing novels or stories or poems or plays or whatever.
	Because revenge fantasies are really paralytic.
	And ghosts is one of these revenge fantasies.
	So one is bad people are going to get theirs and so I believe that they'll be alive after they're dead.
	Because, you know, if evil people die happy, I mean, that's a real blow to consequentialism.
	Right.
	Consequentialism is, well, be good because it'll make you happy.
	Well, you know, I'm sorry, but sadists are very happy when they torture people.
	You know, and before Hitler killed himself, according to his secretary, he got all the people around and everyone thought he was going to say something big and powerful because he destroyed Europe and killed Christendom.
	And, you know, this is pretty much the death blow of the West that we're still trying to recover from and failing.
	And what he did was he basically just went through the whole, the Jews did it, and, you know, he just went through the whole Mein Kampf stuff that he'd written years and years before.
	There was no change.
	Nothing changed.
	Then he went and killed himself.
	So he didn't learn anything.
	There was no perspective.
	There was no justice.
	He did all the evil he wanted to do and died.
	And died believing as firmly in the righteousness of his cause as at the beginning and believed he was dying an honorable death and probably felt that he'd been betrayed again by some nefarious group.
	And bad people die happy.
	Bill Clinton is the most admired political figure in American politics at the moment.
	Bill Clinton.
	You know, for the younger folks, they just don't understand how unbelievably insane that is.
	But, yeah, evil people regularly die happy, content, satisfied, wealthy, powerful, successful with eight million grandkids.
	And so consequentialism takes a real blow if evil people die happy.
	And consequentialism is pretty important to convince people to be good if you don't have philosophy.
	Because, I mean, religion is just consequentialism.
	You know, follow this, you go to heaven, don't follow it, you go to hell.
	There's no ethics, it's just consequences, reward and punishment, stick and carrot.
	And so people like the idea of ghosts, which is this worldly kind of hell, because it means that they can still have consequentialism and can avoid philosophy, which will undermine their culture and religious beliefs a lot of times.
	So people like that.
	And the other reason people like the idea of an afterlife is because of procrastination, because they don't live really here and now, right?
	They don't live richly and deeply and powerfully in the here and now, and so they like the idea of living forever, because then they can play Candy Crush forever without wasting time, because they've got forever.
	I hope that helps.
	Thank you for a wonderful, wonderful show.
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