March 12, 2015 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:21:27
2929 Saying No to Marriage - Call In Show - March 11th, 2015
The caller wrote: “Most people, including Stefan, advocate committed relationships. However, I feel that voluntarism says that the best relationships are when both parties are allowed to behave and go as they wish to. How do we reconcile the idea of using social pressure and legality to force people to stay together through marriage with the basic principles of voluntarism?Furthermore, if the morality and justification of the practice of marriage is all about children, then why are there so many rules applied to the parents and not to the treatment of children? Wouldn't we be better off advocating a new form of contract that focused exclusively on raising children correctly? Or advocating no contracts at all between free and trustworthy people!?Marriage seems to miss the point by focusing on the two people staying together sexually and financially instead of on properly raising children. It seems immoral and counterproductive that we would advocate the complete sacrifice of parent's long term happiness for childrenI am extremely interested in polyamory, but I am worried I am wasting time in my goals of having a family. How do I reconcile my instincts regarding marriage and monogamy with the apparent ideals set forth by Stefan? When I think of following Stefan's advice regarding dating, I see a long if not permanent period of celibacy in my future. Does Stefan advise celibacy in the dating process? Did he follow that? Isn't sex extremely important for someone to be productive and happy?”
Got a book recommendation, which I'm really enjoying.
And the book is Blacklisted by History.
Blacklisted by History.
The untold story of Senator Joe McCarthy and his fight against America's enemies.
M. Stanton Evans, E-V-A-N-S. It's not short.
It is a lengthy tome, but it is very good.
I mean, he's not as scintillating a writer and as engaging and entertaining a writer, but he is methodical, and the depth of research is really quite astounding.
So I would really recommend that if you get a chance to have a look into it.
So, yeah, other than that, let's, I guess, move on to the course.
All right.
Well, up for us today is Daniel.
And I got a bit to read because Daniel sent me quite a few things, and I think it's important to just get everything out there and let the conversation go where it goes.
He wrote and said, I
think?
Marriage seems to miss the point by focusing on the two people staying together sexually and financially instead of on properly raising children.
It seems immoral and counterproductive that we would advocate the complete sacrifice of parents' long-term happiness for children.
I am extremely interested in polyamory, but I am worried that I am wasting time in my goals of having a family.
How do I reconcile my instincts regarding marriage and monogamy with the apparent ideals set forth by Stéphane?
When I think of following Steph's advice regarding dating, I see a long, if not permanent, period of celibacy in my future.
Does Stephon advise celibacy in the dating process?
Did he follow that?
Isn't sex extremely important for someone to be productive and happy?
Well, that's a mouthful, she said.
So, is there anything you'd like to add to that?
Sounds like Michael covered a lot of it.
I did write another thing here, a last question.
I mean, it seems redundant now, but couldn't we dramatically improve parental relationships if we eliminated the uses of coercion, manipulation, and societal pressure in the form of marriage?
What societal pressure do you see in the realm of marriage at the moment?
I would say it's kind of an implied pressure that I get from most women that I meet.
Maybe it's because I, as they say in the pickup community, I broadcast provider.
That's kind of what I've been raised to do.
I think feminism, at least the feminist ideals of how a man should treat a woman, has really been beat into me.
I mean, I don't know, beat into me, that sounds extreme.
Sorry, I'm a little confused because you said you broadcast provider.
And what that...
It doesn't mean you have money or you have resources and are willing to commit them to a woman.
How is that...
How is that a feminist view?
Because to my understanding, the feminist view would be, you know, hey, let's split the check, man.
You know, like equal, equal, right?
Yeah.
I mean, maybe...
I don't know.
Maybe it's internal.
I feel like there's just like the...
You know, I mean, you influenced me a lot.
I feel like my internal ethics or morality makes me feel guilty if I'm with a woman and I think I'm probably not going to marry her.
Oh, right.
Okay.
So, hang on.
So, you feel guilty and this is why your language is so emotionally manipulative in your question, right?
And I'm not saying this to be hostile or anything.
It really is very manipulative language, right?
So look at the first sentence, right?
Most people, including Stefan, advocate committed relationships, right?
That is without context, right?
So why do I advocate committed relationships?
Like just saying I advocate it with no context, with no argument, means that it becomes a jazz versus blues debate.
And the reason that it becomes a jazz versus blues debate is it's not a two and two make four debate, right?
So when you say that I advocate committed relationships without any context, and I'm not saying this to be bitchy or anything, like I'm just pointing out the language that you're using is very manipulative because it's like there's no context of that.
And so here's an example, right?
You know, some doctor just advocates no smoking, right?
As opposed to smoking is bad for you, right?
You see the difference between the two, right?
I mean, that's, yeah, that's why I wrote like four pages of stuff.
I mean, I don't...
No, no, I get it.
I get it.
But the reason that you want to personalize it to me advocating something rather than...
I really didn't want to do that.
I tried to make that clear in what I wrote.
Okay, but you did do it, right?
Yeah.
Because, and again, I'm not criticizing at all.
I'm just, you know, this is hopefully, I'm holding up a clear mirror to your conversation style.
Because the reason that people are manipulative is they're afraid of self-attack.
This is why people manipulate.
They're afraid of self-attack or attack by another.
In other words, if you say to me, Stefan has provided significant evidence as to the value of committed relationships...
The value to mental health, the value to financial security, the value to emotional happiness, the value in emotional stability, the value in the healthy raising of children, the value in family income, the value in maintaining an extended sphere of relationships as well, in-laws and aunts and uncles and cousins and so on.
So, you want to take all of the evidence that I've provided And wrap it up and stick it down my throat and say, well, he's, that's just his perspective, right?
He just advocates this, right?
Whereas the point of philosophy is not to deal with the person and not to deal with the person's advocacy, but to deal with the data, to deal with the facts, to deal with the evidence, to deal with the arguments.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, of course.
I think for me, maybe it's, you know, there's evidence and statistics.
And I watched your recent presentation on, you know, sex statistics.
And, you know, it's very interesting.
But I guess for me, the philosophy or the reason conflicts with the evidence.
You know, for me, I can't reason my way into wanting to get married or even be in a permanent relationship.
A monogamous relationship with a woman, even though, you know, you have provided this evidence that, you know, it apparently, and I'm not sure that I'm convinced, you know, does these other things for, you know, people who do it.
And then also, I guess a big part of my question is, Wait, no, no, hang on, hang on.
Okay, let's back up a bit, right?
So, this is not even that great philosophically from my standpoint, but this is sort of what I think is, it's defensible, right?
I'm not saying it's conclusive, but it's defensible.
So, in a free society, do what you want, but don't involve me against my will, right?
Amen.
Amen, right?
If you want to go and push the envelope to 51 shades of grey in your basement with a well-lathered aardvark and whatever else turns your crank, go for it, right?
I can't rouse myself to get interested in your private behavior.
Do what you will, but don't involve me against my will, right?
Yeah.
So for me, if you don't want to have kids, and we're in a free society, in other words, your screw-ups don't put the fist of the state deep in my wallet, and my screw-ups don't put the fist of the state in your wallet, then do what you will, but don't involve me against my will.
So if you don't want to have kids, you are in a different category, morally, morally, Than if you do want to have kids.
For instance, to take an analogy I've used before, if you decide you want to get some bull mastiff or some bulldog or something like that, right?
Some pit bull.
And you want to keep it in your house?
Okay, well, assuming it's not barking all day and all night, it's in your house, right?
It doesn't involve me, if that makes sense.
Now, I will have some care and concern about the health of the dog, but it's your dog.
It's in your house, right?
If you have a house cat, whatever, right?
However, if your dog roams around the neighborhood, you understand my interest, my rational interest, In how well behaved your dog is, goes up considerably, right?
So if you have no interest in having children, or you don't want kids, then, to me, get married, don't get married.
Like, what's your choice?
I think there's good statistical reasons to be, to get married, even if you don't want kids.
Or at least, you know, enter into some, whatever marriage is, marriage has been co-opted by the state.
But just, There's some good reasons to do it, but, you know, it's not that much of an interest to me.
However, the moment that you decide to have children, Daniel, my interest in your, quote, personal life goes up considerably.
You understand why, right?
Yeah.
Because your kids are going to be out on the street playing with my kids.
Because your kids are going to grow up.
And, you know, if you raise a bunch of psychotic arsonists, well, you know, I may have flammable aspects to my house that I would not want to draw their attention, right?
The moment that you decide to have children, then you are no longer an island in society because your children...
Statistically are going to outlive you and they're going to come sailing into society, right?
Well, I'm not trying to be an island.
No, no, no.
All I'm pointing out is that the reason why I think it's important for men and women of goodwill, care and concern for society to promote that which is best for children Is that if the children are fucked up, we're all fucked, right?
If the children are screwed up, we're all screwed.
And we do have a collective interest in the well-being of the next generation from the moment of conception onwards.
Now, I know that there's a lot of atomistic elements in society and there's a reason why there are virtually no children in Ayn Rand's novels.
Because you can be all kind of atomistic if, you know, you're just looking to be the best architect or the best at everything if you're John Gall.
You can be atomistic as all get-up and frankly, yeah, okay, great.
But, right, the sort of I do my thing, you do your thing, it's not quite the same when it comes to there being children.
How you raise your children is of significant interest to me and I'm not being a busybody In promoting best parenting practices, in promoting that which is best for children.
I'm not saying you're...
I'm just sort of putting the general perspective out.
I gotta live in your grow and release environment, right?
And I gotta grow old with people's kids around.
And if those kids have grown up pretty feral, pretty hostile, pretty aggressive, then...
Well, my life becomes significantly problematic at just about every conceivable level.
And I don't just mean direct crime.
And I'm sorry, I'm not picking on you.
I'm just you being the generic person.
If your kids are dangerous, I might have to move.
If your kids are dangerous, I might have to get a dog.
If your kids are dangerous, I'm going to need an alarm system.
I'm going to Be cautious around the neighborhood.
My quality of life is significantly compromised if your kids are dangerous.
Even if I don't have kids.
Now, if I have kids and your kids are...
Then it's a big problem, right?
It's a big problem.
Because your kids are impacting the quality of life of my kids.
But even if I don't have kids, the quality of life...
The other thing, too, is that, of course, if you're raising your kids and they turn out really messed up, Then, if they're in that sort of sweet spot of criminality, which is around sort of mid-70s to low-80s IQ, then I have to worry about my car getting stolen.
I have to worry about being mugged.
I have to worry about all that sort of stuff.
It impacts my quality of life.
But if they're super smart, then they might become very efficient con men, or they might end up running companies into the ground while profiting money.
At a personal level, you know, and maybe I've invested or some of my investments are in that company or whatever, right?
So there's just significant breakdowns of the isolationist or atomistic view of society when we realize the effect that child raising has on all of us in the long run, which is why I've focused on it.
So it seems pretty indisputable You know, is there more data that could suddenly overturn the old data?
It seems unlikely.
I mean, the data is pretty clear.
You know, how much is conclusive in these situations is a matter for debate.
But certainly kids who grew up in terrible households can turn out fine, but so what?
I mean, it doesn't have anything to do with anything.
I mean, some people who smoke for 40 years don't die of smoking-related diseases.
George Burns had a lot better outcome than Sigmund Freud.
Sigmund Freud had cancer at the cheek and had had operations and George Burns went over 100 while smoking cigars.
So, but we don't say to people, well, you know, some people work out fine with smoking so don't worry about it.
It's like because we don't know ahead of time, right?
We don't know ahead of time.
In hindsight, who cares, right?
I mean, hindsight is, well, you know, if I'd have known I was going to Lose that round of poker, I wouldn't have gone all in.
It's like, well, yeah, but that's the point is you don't know, right?
And so when it comes to what's right or what's wrong, do what you want in your own life.
But once you start having kids, I'm afraid that I have to be interested now.
How does this look in a free society?
Well, the way it looks in a free society is that there will be There will be more social standards.
In other words, the cheapest children to insure against criminality or wrongdoing or mischief or vandalism or bullying, the cheapest kids to insure will be those who are raised the best.
And...
Schools, of course, or whatever takes their place, will have an interest in having the best quality experience for the kids, so they'll put those things in place, and there will be massive amounts of incentives for great parenting.
You know, one of the great tragedies of the modern world is that bad parents have socialized the costs of their bad parenting.
Socialized the costs of their bad parenting.
People are all like, well, you know, all the people who were in charge of the financial industry, you know, they privatized Or they privatize their profits and socialize their losses.
It's like, yep.
And the same thing is even more fundamentally true of bad parents.
They get to do the bad stuff that they want to do, that they prefer doing, that's easier for them to do than to grow and learn and confront their own demons and become better parents.
And if their kid goes off the rails, who pays for it?
Well, assuming that they're not rich, The taxpayer, you and I, pay for their lawyers, pay for the courtroom costs, pay for the costs of prosecution, and pay for the cost of defense, and then we also pay for them to go to jail.
And assuming that the child is not yet an adult, those costs, of course, should go to the parents.
Of course the costs should go to the parents.
I mean, they raise the child.
And...
Of course, to have insurance against criminal outcomes for your child would be very expensive if you weren't willing to submit to best practices in terms of parenting that would be scientifically and empirically understood to reduce the possibility of antisocial or criminal behavior.
But in this society, you know, people can be all kinds of crappy parents and who suffers?
I mean, who pays for it?
Well, everyone else.
The victims, the taxpayers, and the other kids, and so on, right?
I mean, everybody knows, pretty much, it's pretty clear, right, that bullies at school are bullied at home.
And bullies at school can make life so unbearable for other children, other children will actually take their own lives, or show up to school with weapons.
And who pays?
Not the people who are most likely responsible.
Can't say it for sure, right?
Could be a brain tumor, could be Some sort of aneurysm could be some sort of injury, you know, people who go crazy aren't all, it isn't all just because of bad parenting, but it certainly is the first place to look.
Andy Kaufman died of lung cancer, apparently never smoked in his life.
And so as far as, you know, should you get married, should you not get married, I don't really care.
I mean, I think there's a good case to be made for it, for happiness sake.
But if you don't want kids, it doesn't really matter that much.
But if you have children, you are taking on an awesome responsibility, which is the training and raising of a human being who is going to go free in society.
And if you raise a predator, that predator is very well camouflaged.
It's not like Cylons who's Spines glow when they have an orgasm.
I mean, they're indistinguishable from the good guys, at least at a medium distance.
So, I know that this is a fairly lengthy answer, but I really just want to point that out.
We are all invested in the quality of the parenting of the children around us.
It is one of the most essential aspects, and it used to be something that was more commonly understood and enforced.
And now, because the costs have been socialized, everybody has stepped back with relief from the uncomfortable aspect of freedom, which is freedom means that rules must be primarily enforced socially rather than legally.
And if you get rid of the social enforcement of rules, you end up with a near infinity of government laws, which never work and just make things worse.
So the only thing that really counts in matters is social enforcement.
And social enforcement is uncomfortable for people.
You've got to sometimes do things that feel mean.
You have to reject.
You have to ostracize.
And people don't like to do that.
It's much more fun to watch a house of cards than it is to go knock on your neighbor's door if you hear something awry or amiss.
But all of that will come back in a free society.
And the parents will have a great incentive to learn the best parenting they can.
So, I don't have any particular final answers.
Of course not, right?
About what is the very best way to raise children.
I mean, I think there's some basic principles, but who knows what the science is going to reveal in the future.
So, have sex?
Don't have sex.
You know, get married?
Don't get married.
Have a polyamorous relationship?
I mean, if it's voluntary and there aren't any kids involved, you know, I may have some opinions about the long-term happiness potential of it for you, but I just can't get that fussed about it.
But the moment the kids are involved, that's kind of a different situation.
I mean, it's true for a smaller degree with adults.
Polyamory leads to a lot of dysfunction, a lot of misery, a lot of unhappiness, and shooting deaths.
I'm not saying it does, but if it did, right?
Well, then we'd have some interest socially in that matter.
But if you're going to live on an island...
Then, you know, great.
There's water between us and so on, right?
But if you're in my swimming pool, I care whether you pee or not.
If you're in your swimming pool, well, maybe I just won't go over to your swimming pool, but if you're in my swimming pool, I care whether you're peeing in the water or not.
And your kids are going to be the foundation of the civilization I'm going to have to live in in my old age.
And it matters to me significantly what you're doing.
I can't pretend that it doesn't.
So, That's not a comprehensive answer, but I hope that gives you, you know, if you want to go and sleep around.
I was not a virgin when I got married.
I got married in my 30s, but I didn't produce any kids.
And never got ill.
I didn't have the data, I didn't have the facts when I was younger.
It's all pretty studiously kept from us.
Because the leftists want to sell us free love in return for our freedoms.
So if you want to go have sex with lots of people, I think it's important to know the dangers.
And the challenges to your physical and mental and emotional well-being.
But if you want to go do it, I mean, what am I going to do?
Throw myself in between your big squishy olive oil soaked orgy?
No.
I don't want to get that close.
Thank you very much.
And so, yeah, do what you will.
But if kids are coming out of the equation, you have my attention.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah, I mean, that's why I tried to make sure that I wasn't talking about parenting.
I mean, I agree with you on parenting is extremely important, and thank you for the rant on why parenting is so important.
I'm not trying to dispute that at all.
I think for me, it's about all this morality and these arguments are directed towards marriage.
And we're all encouraged to say, till death do us part to our spouse, but not to our children.
We don't say that to our children.
In fact, most children are expected to be on their own by the time they're 18 or 23.
The number keeps going up now because the economy is so bad and they can't support themselves.
But Wouldn't we do so much better as a society making the vows directed towards children, as you mentioned, as opposed to towards the spouse?
Because I feel that when we directed towards the spouse, we prevent intelligent, non-impulsive people from having children because, you know, a lot of men analyze the situation now and they say MGTOW or they say, you know, pickup artist.
Because it's too risky to try to go get married to a woman.
The rate of divorce is at least 50% higher in the cities, and 75% of the time, the woman initiates it.
And then she gets the kids 91% of the time, and then all his money goes to her, and he's a debt slave to her for the rest of his life.
So I'm just trying to look for a way forward.
I don't...
I mean, I know you don't agree with status marriage.
Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, there are some things that lower the risk of divorce, right?
I mean, divorce is not, it's not like 50% of everyone.
Can we talk about why it's an ideal before we talk about, you know, trying to hold on to it?
Why is it about the parents?
Like, and, you know, till death do us part.
I guess, you know, you said that in a free society, you wouldn't care about what I do.
I mean, that's great, but I feel like in a free society, we would still persuade each other and influence each other.
And I'm not trying to go, like I said, I don't want to go live on an island.
Like, I really believe some of these things.
Yeah, but Daniel, hang on, hang on, hang on.
So, Daniel, look, if I'm trying to persuade you that marriage is in your best interest...
That's fine, right?
I'm free to do that and you're free to tell me to go take a hike or not care or whatever.
I'm just trying to persuade you that you shouldn't try to persuade me, I guess.
But why does it bother you that I would try to persuade you?
So why does the data bother you?
Why does the data and the facts bother you?
I'm not trying to persuade you like I'm selling you marriage at a cut-rate discount in a timeshare situation.
Right?
I'm not trying to sell you marriage.
I'm saying, look, this is what the data says.
And here's why.
I think it says it, but the data is the data, right?
Because you're kind of studiously avoiding the data here.
I mean, if the data is incorrect, let me know.
Thank you.
If the data is correct, then it's probably a wiser decision to pair bond.
And get married?
I mean, I'm fine with pair bonding.
I just feel like we have this idea of marriage.
Like, if two people are so well pair bonded and trust each other so well, why do they have to include a third party in their relationship?
Because relationships are not solitary.
Because we're not on an island.
Right?
Because, and I've made this case before, so I'll keep it very brief.
The reason that you involve a third party, and the third party would not be the state, The reason that you involve a third party in marriage is because of children.
Because children fundamentally change the equation of your entire life.
So let's take a typical example and just follow it through again briefly, right?
So I meet a woman and we decide to get married and we both want kids, right?
And we go full on, leave it to be for 50s style, right?
And the reason we do that is because, let's say we want to have three kids, and each kid needs to be breastfed for 18 months, which is the World Health Organization recommended minimum.
And they need that for the Foundation of Health and Immune System and non-allergies and all the other amazing benefits of nature's fun bags of food production.
So, she is going to be out of commission raising children for at least a decade.
I mean, that's just getting, like, the youngest off to school at five or six years old, which is pretty early in a lot of places, or at least in some of the northern countries in Europe, it's sort of seven or even eight that kids go to school at.
But let's just take, at the bare minimum, she is going to be out of the workforce for a decade, right?
Now, I'm going to be providing...
I'm going to be providing for her and for the children for a decade, right?
At least.
And the obligations go on for a quarter century, right?
To get your kids to adulthood.
I don't mean like postgraduate or whatever, just basic early 20s adulthood.
And so we are both engaging in, she's going to be deferring income, I'm going to be spending huge amounts of money, and we're both taking on a commitment of time and resources a quarter century in length.
Now, can you imagine?
Can you imagine doing a handshake deal on a quarter century mortgage for a multi-million dollar house?
Or do you think there'd be some paperwork involved?
I mean, yeah, there should be paperwork, but maybe it should say 25 years instead of till death do us part.
So your issue is that it should be 25 years rather than till death do us part.
I mean, it could vary from person to person.
My point is there should be more acceptance of various ways of doing it, because it's about raising children correctly and not about till death to us part.
But that's what's focused...
But Daniel, those two are one and the same.
Children enormously benefit from the presence of grandparents.
This has been very well established.
Children enormously benefit from the presence of grandparents.
So the proper raising, and grandchildren of course, right?
Hugely benefit.
Great-grandchildren, so on, right?
Just met a couple the other day who were talking about They saw me sort of chatting with my daughters.
Oh, it brings us back.
You know, we had five kids.
We have like 18 grandchildren.
We've got three great-grandchildren on the way and so on.
And we had a really delightful chat about all of that, right?
And that's a clan, right?
It's an extended family clan.
So there's two groups that benefit from Till Death Do Us Part.
And I'm not saying the man doesn't, but the two groups are women and children, right?
Because, and the reason for that is that the woman gives up her youth and fertility for the sake of raising children, and the man gives up resources.
Now the man can continue to have children into his old age, but the woman can't.
And the man, because he accumulates more and more resources as time goes along, becomes more of a value from a reproductive standpoint, not necessarily from a liver spots and wrinkles standpoint, but From a resource standpoint, at a sort of purely utilitarian level,
there is a declining quality of sperm and so on, but nonetheless, the man's value as a provider continues to increase over the course of his life, whereas the woman's fertility declines and extinguishes, you know, before her life is half done with any luck, right?
So the until death do us part is the woman's way of saying, well, I'll give you youth, fertility, and children...
But then you have to not trade me in for a younger model when I get older, right?
When I get older.
I don't want you...
Because the man, if he's long-lived and successful, can have two families, maybe more.
Right?
So he can get to...
His kids can get to some sort of...
And again, this stuff all developed when kids were sort of more mature in their mid-teens, right?
So the man can get married at 20 and by 35 or 40, his kids can be grown and then he can trade in his wife And get a younger model and start again, right?
And this would be of benefit to his genetics, right?
And so the until death do us part is it's better for the children if the man's resources are devoted to them and it's better for the children if the grandparents are in a stable relationship and available and so on.
I mean, there's arguments that...
Menopause kicks in, right?
It's an infertility window for women.
It kicks in when her genes are better served by her focusing on grandchildren than by her attempting to wring another baby out of these ancient brittle dusty dinosaur eggs, right?
Because when a grandmother is helping out with the grandkids, she is still taking care of a quarter of her DNA, right?
And so the until death do us part is to keep the DNA proximity investment cooking for the grandkids and the great grandkids and also for the woman not to be traded in which destabilize other families and the other reason as well in general is that the one thing that seems to be pretty catastrophic for society and stability is It's
to have a large number of men who don't get married and have children.
So if there's a few men taking all the women, society can't last.
So if men get to have multiple families, they're taking away, right?
So some 45-year-old guy snags another 20-year-old.
Well, he's taking that 20-year-old girl or woman away from a 20-year-old boy or man.
And so that 20-year-old boy or man doesn't go through the civilizing aspect of getting married and having children, which is highly civilizing towards men.
I can say this as a man who has gone through probably a massive...
I know I've gone through at least a 40% reduction in testosterone, probably more because I've been a stay-at-home dad.
And there's a difference between my shows before I had kids and after I have kids.
And there is a civilizing and calming influence that happens on the male psyche and the male system as a whole from getting married and having children.
And so the more men who can be roped into getting married and have kids, the more stable and peaceful society tends to be.
And whenever you see a society with a large number of unmarried men in it or men who aren't getting roped into getting married, so to speak, the less stable that society is.
And you can see this in a variety of cultures and races throughout the world.
So pair bonding is best for society because, in general, then, it keeps, at a rough egalitarian level, men and women getting married equally.
Again, some men don't want to get married and some men and some women don't want.
Fine.
But in general, the societies where the alpha scoops up all the women...
Tends to end up with a lot of discontented potential Macbeths to slice off the head of King Duncan.
And so societies generally tend to stabilize in pair bonding.
You keep the DNA at proximity and women are more likely and more willing to surrender themselves into the raising of children if they know they're going to be taken care of in their old age.
Because if women see around them, oh, so I donate 15 years of my life to raising this guy's kids and I don't have any resources of my own and that I just get tossed into the scrap heap while he goes to another woman, no thank you.
Right?
So women need to feel that their investment is going to be paid off even though the man's value is increasing as a resource provider, although her value as a...
As a breeder, as extinguished in any sort of early 40s kind of thing, it really gets too risky for a lot of people to continue.
So when you say, well, why is it until death do us part?
Well, it's for very sensible, practical, and well-established reasons, which tragically have been hidden from you and have been hidden from me.
Now, your parents did get divorced, right?
Yes.
And what was the story of that?
My mom cheated on him.
Your mom cheated on your dad?
Yeah.
Right.
After how many years of marriage?
I mean, that you know of, right?
You're never sure if it's the first one.
Yeah.
I mean, she married the guy she cheated on with.
Or at least the one that I know about.
I think I was three or four.
Right.
And how old were you when they divorced?
Five-ish, I think.
Wow, I'm so sorry.
That is just so terrible.
I mean, that's wretched.
Do you remember that time at all?
Not really.
really a definitely have a couple traumatic memories I think the most extreme memory I have is wanting to see my mom and my dad not letting me and crying about it on the stairs.
So your dad had custody, is that right?
Yeah.
Majority of it, yeah.
And was that something that the court decided or was that something that your parents decided informally?
No.
My dad is a lawyer and my mom is not.
He definitely used his knowledge and determination to gain custody of me.
Right.
Right.
And did you have any kind of continued relationship with your mom?
Yeah.
I still have a relationship with her now alright Thank you.
And did your dad remarry?
He did.
They both did, yeah.
Right.
And what effect do you think that your mom's infidelity and your dad's choice of a woman who was unfaithful, what effect do you think that had on your sense of relationship?
Well, there's no doubt that I don't have much faith in marriage.
But I feel like I'm justified in that by the statistics.
You have statistics that say marriage is good, but I'm looking at the odds.
No, you're not.
No, you're not.
You're not looking at the odds.
You're not looking at the odds because the odds are not equal.
There are very specific and clear ways to enter into a relationship with the odds in your favor.
You have what is called a confirmation bias, which we all have.
We all have a confirmation bias.
But Daniel, I don't think that you know yours.
So Mike, just in preparation for the next part, if you don't mind, if you can look up the statistics on how to reduce your odds of divorce.
Things like a woman or a man whose parents stayed together, better education, and so on.
There's lots of ways that you can lower your risk.
It's sort of like saying, well, my parents crashed a car when they were both drunk, so I don't want to drive.
It's like, well, first of all, don't drink and drive.
That will help, right?
But what you're doing is, and look, I understand it too.
I'm a child of divorce as well, Daniel, so I'm not trying to give you all of these finger-wagging things.
I mean, I've struggled with this myself, and I had no interest in getting married when I was younger.
Because am I right in assuming that when your parents got divorced, did you end up being around a lot of kids who were also divorced, or was it not that way for you?
I... Maybe it was because it's what I was looking for, but I feel like my friends' parents weren't divorced, but they were miserable.
Right.
Yeah, and that's because your dad was a high-income owner and you had custody, right?
But the way it works for most kids, as you know, the way that it works for most kids and the way it worked for me was...
Your parents separate, and your mom gets custody, and this giant trapdoor opens up between a formerly middle-class existence and dumps you down into the bitter underworld of screwed-up people.
You end up in the matriarchal manners of rent-controlled, single-mom households, apartments, crappy little bungalows.
And Not many people have cars and not many people have stability and there's this constant movement of trashy low-rent men through the bedrooms of the moms and it's, you know, with these little boys trying to cling on and find anyone who can provide any kind of positive role model.
Divorce creates a great fall in the life of a child and less so for you because your dad was a high-income earner and he kept custody and all this, that and the other, right?
And, however, for most kids, I would argue, for most kids, and statistics, I think, bear me out in this, but for most kids, it's not so much that your parents divorce, it's that your world vanishes.
Because a stable pair bond is the significant predictor of a wide variety of positive social outcomes, and you can't stay on positive planets.
When you get stuck in the custody of a single mom, you fall, you fall, you fall.
You know, my parents had a nice middle-class household when I was a baby.
And then when they divorced when I was a baby, we fell, we fell, and we fell.
And we didn't stop falling for a long time.
And where we landed was like one slip of paper above eviction notices which kept flowing in.
And who else is down there?
Who else is down in those depths?
Not people of quality in general.
You are down with the dregs.
You are down with the dregs.
And to my good fortune, I saw one or two more positive role models that came through school.
One family I owe a huge debt to in giving me a view of what a better kind of life could be.
But it's a great fall.
It's a great fall.
And people talk about it in terms of statistics, which is important.
But among the poor is, not universally but in general, among the poor...
Are people who can't negotiate, who are self-righteous, who like to use the word period.
It's just this way, period.
Like, there's no room for discussion, there's no ambiguity, there's no subtlety, there's no irony, there's nothing of intelligence.
You know, the poor, you have these rickety tin consumers distributing shelving units with really dusty...
Books that look smart that aren't, like Reader's Digest condensed books, which nobody's ever cracked and opened, and what happens is you just see people sitting slack-jawed in front of reality television, which is one of the greatest oxymorons you can imagine.
And among the poor, there is dissociation and volatility.
Among the poor, there is defensiveness and aggression.
Among the poor, there is manipulation over substance.
Among the poor, there is useless confrontation instead of significant negotiation.
Among the poor are ridiculous and irrational loyalties.
I remember a friend of mine, when I was younger, In my early teens, he was a hockey player, and his single mom would just come and scream at the hockey team.
And I would come watch him play hockey sometimes, and she's just bellowing at the top of her lungs about it.
This is like, this is bent.
This is nothing, right?
I mean, not like don't care.
I'm not saying don't care, right?
I mean, I was playing checkers with my daughter the other day.
I'm like, I must win.
No, no, no.
You really don't have to.
And there is this sports team and these loyalties and these allegiances that just make no sense.
It's stupid.
I mean, it's how you define yourself by your addiction to things rather than the content of your character.
And so there are all of these terrible things that can occur that are why it's incredibly risky to get married.
But Where the risk is greater, you should be smarter.
It doesn't mean you have to get married or anything, but saying that all marriages face the same risk, that is not valid.
So here's some facts, right?
Here's some facts.
If you tie the knot as a teenager, you're more vulnerable to divorce later on, right?
You understand all of that, right?
That all makes good sense.
And you mean these days in particular because we're held in this ridiculously retarded adolescent state forever, right?
Oh, God.
So agree.
Yeah, waiting until your 20s is much better.
So if you delay marriage until the age of 25, do you know what percentage your divorce risk goes down?
I don't.
I think I remember your thing was maybe 20% down?
24%.
So, a 24% reduction in a significant risk, that's pretty good, right?
I mean, that's halfway to quitting smoking, because only one out of two smokers die of smoking-related illnesses, so 24% is, you know...
Living together before marriage...
You know, to give it a try?
I don't think so.
It doesn't seem to work out.
And couples, if you feel the need to engage in a trial run, you may have suspicions that it's not going to work out.
Second or third marriages, so in a number of previous marriages, divorce rates, divorce risks increase with every marriage you have.
And a lot of people jump into a second marriage without having figured out why the first one went south and things get more complicated.
One of the foremost indicators of high divorce risk is money.
The more assets a couple brings into the marriage, the less likely they are to divorce down the road.
Now, that's not like two people who jerks to each other win the lottery and they're happy.
That's not what it is.
With, you know, obvious exceptions and as a general trend, though, the better you are at negotiating, the more money you can make in many ways, right?
And it's not, again, I understand people are going to rebel against this and use car salesmen.
I understand that.
I really do.
But if you're terrible at negotiating and if you just get angry and so on, you're not going to make much money because who's going to want to work with you?
And so it's not so much that, well, if you give people money, they'll stay married.
But people who have more money generally tend to be better at managing their emotions, better at negotiating, looking for a win-win, and all that kind of stuff.
If you end up with a lot of debt, your marriage is automatically more likely to fail.
And fighting about money just once a week increases your divorce risk by 30%.
So have the same philosophy of money.
And have some reasonable standards for handling money and just don't get involved with people who are bad with money.
I mean just don't.
Don't get involved with people who are bad with money.
Education level.
The higher your education level, the less likely you are to end up in divorce court.
This is a study published by the National Center for Family and Research.
A failure to participate in premarital counseling can significantly increase your divorce risk.
Premarital counseling teaches couples effective problem-solving skills, this is quoting, that are essential for diffusing arguments before they explode into full-blown marital disputes.
Children of divorce face an uphill battle in their own marriages.
When one spouse comes from a broken home, the chances of divorce increase by 50%.
50%.
According to Professor Nicholas Wolfinger at the University of Utah, they increase by a truly jaw-dropping 200%.
So your odds of getting divorced are 200% higher when both the husband and wife come from households that suffered through divorce.
If you have significantly disparate ages, then there's a link between a high divorce rate and couples, sort of May-December marriages.
Divorce rates declined when the husband was between 2 and 10 years older than the wife.
By contrast, an older wife increased the likelihood of divorce.
And we, of course, went through all of this stuff about number of sexual partners.
You know, if you have...
You know, for age of first sexual experience, you're 82% likely...
To get divorced if the woman had a first sexual experience at the age of 12 or less.
And that goes down significantly.
Number of prior sexual partners.
And education, which is an IQ correlate.
If you have less than high school, you're 61% likely to end up divorced.
If you have high school education, 59%.
Some college, 51%.
If you have a bachelor's, 22%.
And it goes up from there, right?
If you are Asian, 31% likelihood of divorce.
White, 46%.
Hispanic, 47%.
Black, 63%.
And if you did not cohabitate before getting married, you're 43%.
Cohabitated with a husband before marriage, around 55%.
If you come from a large family...
A study from Ohio State University revealed that the social skills learned by dealing with your brothers and sisters can help you have a stable marriage.
So again, none of this is deterministic, right?
But if you know your odds, so for instance, I mean, as I sort of said before, if you come from a family with a history of heart disease, then you should be extra vigilant about your health.
And you should do whatever it is the doctors recommend to maintain healthy heart, right?
Eat well, exercise, all that kind of stuff.
And if you come from A history of divorce, then you can throw up your hands and say, well, marriage doesn't work.
Fuck marriage.
Marriage is screwed.
Marriage is archaic.
Marriage is primitive.
Marriage is status.
Marriage is religious.
Blah-de-blah-de-blah.
But that's just a way to throw the baby out with the moth water.
That is a way of saying, well, my parents screwed up, but it's not their fault because the whole institution is screwed up.
So we do things like this.
We extrapolate to institutions as a whole Because we don't want to hold our parents responsible for some significant mistakes.
And so we say, well, they got divorced, but you see, marriage is unnatural.
And you can see this kind of stuff happening all over the place, right?
I mean, the number of people who, you know, write in and say, well, yes, Steph, but you have to understand, marriage is archaic, marriage is irrelevant, marriage is statist, marriage is this, and it's just like, okay, your parents got divorced, I get it.
I get it.
I understand that it's easier to blame marriage than your parents.
It's easier to reject an institution than hold your parents accountable for bad mistakes.
But the fact that people screw up marriage does not invalidate the institution of marriage.
That's like saying because businesses fail, the free market doesn't work.
Like, no.
Actually, that's in a way kind of the point.
Free up resources for other things.
But your parents made vows.
And they didn't keep them.
Your parents lied in the maintenance of the most fundamental vows they were ever going to make.
The most fundamental vows you're ever going to make when you stare across that person in whatever venue you're in.
To love, to honor, in sickness and in health, for better and for worse.
That is the most important.
Those are the most important words you will ever speak.
Ever.
And your parents...
Failed to live up to the most important promises that they made.
And I'm sorry for that.
I think it's genuinely tragic.
A lot of information was doubtless withheld from them, and I don't know how old you are, but, you know, there's been an anti-marriage thing going on for quite some time.
Largely coming from the left and largely for purposes of the expansion of state power.
But, yes, marriage is risky, but let's not pretend that all risks And also let's not pretend that just not getting married is risk-free.
It's not.
Not getting married is not risk-free.
It increases your risks of depression.
It increases your risks of dying earlier.
It increases your risks of loneliness, isolation.
And, you know, I don't know if you've noticed, it's not always that easy to make friends as you get older.
But if you're married, you've got a friend forever.
You know, in college, I make friends all the time, and I make friends through this show and all that.
It's sort of a unique position.
But for a lot of people, you know, you get into your 30s and 40s, I mean, who are you going to hang out with if you're not married, especially if friends are married?
You know, it's not like, well, if I don't get married, I'm okay.
Statistically, you're not.
Not getting married is bad for your health.
And again, when you're young, it's hard to appreciate that.
I mean, you're a young man, right?
And this is annoying as shit, and I'm sorry to even mention it, because Lord knows I would roll my eyes like the head of a kid in a poltergeist movie when people would say this, you young, I get all that, I totally get that.
But I'm going to be 49 this year.
And I still feel young.
I still feel vibrant and healthy.
I don't feel much different than when I was in my 20s.
But I'm seeing, you know, in 50, 60, 70, 80, you know, cross your fingers and work for it.
But it's a hard life.
And I've seen this with guys I've known who haven't gotten married.
It's a hard life.
They get odder.
I'm sorry, it's true.
They get order.
Because they don't have that feedback.
They don't have that bounce back.
They don't have people to share things with.
They don't have people to set them right.
They don't have people to, the reality checks, the ballast.
They just, they get order.
And they're not as healthy.
And it's not that much fun.
You know, it's fun to be single when you're 20, when you're 25, 30, 35.
Yeah, you get older, you know, I mean, you right now are in the big flush of like, hey, there's attractive women as far as the eye can see, and I'm a young man, and I get that.
I was young.
I get it.
I get it.
I really do.
But who are you going to date when you're 53?
Who are you going to get into a polyamorous relationship with when you're 67?
Because I'm telling you, the quality people are married and have stayed married.
You're going to get the oddities, the remnants, the detritus, the refuse, the discards, the quirkily constituted, let's say.
You know, there's this old principle about used cars.
It's such a humanist, right?
The old principle about used cars, that the only used cars that are on the market are the ones that suck.
Because if you have a car that's doing well, you don't sell it in general.
And so if you're in the market for a used car, what can you buy?
Well, generally, bad cars.
And so if you're in a relationship with someone who's quality, if you're married to someone who's high quality, odds are you're high quality, and you're not letting that person go.
I mean, there's nothing I can think of inside the law that I wouldn't do to keep my wife happy in our marriage.
And so it becomes sort of like a thrift shop.
Everything that's in here is something that somebody didn't want.
Now, when you're young, the thrift store is kind of mixed in with all this new cool stuff.
But as you get older, all the new cool stuff It gets bought up and kept and you're looking at a thrift store that's been picked over 20 times that day and all that's left is like books with the ending missing and half a bookend and a really shaky shelf and some dusty old signs that I guess are supposed to look cool and retro but outside of a frat house they just look like you've been a garbage picker and
a giant roll of paper for Which you can't figure out what to put in.
And a video game system from 1994 which says missing AC power.
Good luck.
You just end up with crap.
And so that's another reason why you kind of get married.
You get married when you're at your greatest value and you have the most choice and the most pickings.
You find the very best person.
You look up the odds.
Again, assuming you want kids and all that, and you look up the odds, and you figure out how to manage those odds.
And you don't pretend that by not getting married, you're in a perfect position.
Statistically, you're not.
And who is going to want to take care of you?
Right?
I mean, I went through cancer treatment.
Can you imagine if I was single?
What if you get divorced?
That's worse.
What, worse than cancer?
No, no.
Worse than being single and never having been married.
Well, not necessarily.
It depends who you pick.
Right, and so I don't know.
Let's say you get married and it just doesn't work out for whatever reason, but the person's reasonable and you don't get lawyers involved and you just Sure, but that's an ideal situation.
Of course it is.
Of course it is.
But you're saying it's automatically worse.
Well, no, it's not.
Mike, also, sorry.
Could you give me some statistics on the sort of health and well-being of single people, particularly as they age?
But, look, I agree with you.
Can we get back off of statistics and talk about the philosophy of this stuff?
I mean, I'm really trying to find some...
Look, man, you brought up statistics first, right?
Because you brought up half divorces, half of marriages end in divorce, which I think is too high.
I think that that's been revised downwards, and you said 70%.
And I've used those statistics myself as well.
Well, I looked it up before the show.
So these statistics are important.
I'm sorry?
I looked it up before the show.
I'm not trying to use outdated information.
Sure, yeah.
No, no, I get it.
We're just, as we sort of continue onward.
So, look...
It's your risk-reward tolerance, right?
If you don't get married, then you risk certain negatives, right?
And those are...
Look, you want to have sex with someone you love and respect, right?
It's better than holding your nose and pretending they're someone else and whatever, right?
And that will be...
That's a significant positive, you know, better sex life and better financial stability and all that kind of stuff.
So if you don't get married, the risk of death is 32% higher across a lifetime for single men compared to married men.
Single women face a 23% higher mortality risk compared to married women, right?
So that's quite significant.
That's more than half the risk of smoking.
A major survey of 127,000-plus American adults, married men are healthier than men who were never married or whose marriages ended in divorce or widowhood.
Men who have marital partners also live longer than men without spouses.
Men who marry after age 25 get more protection than those who tie the knot at a younger age, and the longer a man stays married, the greater his survival advantage over his unmarried peers.
Even after taking major cardiovascular risk factors such as age, body fat, smoking, blood pressure, diabetes, and cholesterol into account, Married men had a 46% lower rate of death than unmarried men.
I mean, I think that's also partly because you have someone around who says, will you get to the doctor?
There's this weird thing.
Go see a doctor, right?
Single adults are 5% more likely to develop heart disease than their married peers.
Anyway, we sort of go on and on.
So, it's not like it's risk-free.
I mean, it's always in life, you know, choose your poison.
Always in life, right?
There is no solution.
What is the solution?
Is the solution to the problem of marriage to stay single?
No.
No, not at all.
It sort of reminds me, a long time ago I read this economist who was making the case and saying that investing in real estate is always better than renting.
And this guy, he got really pissed off.
And it took me a long time to understand why he got so pissed off.
But the economist got pissed off and said, so he says, well, you know, because if you buy a house, you have an asset, right?
And if you rent, you're just giving money to the landlord and so on.
But that's not even remotely intelligent, and it's actively misleading, almost fraudulent, because he said, what about your down payment?
What about the extra money you have to pay as part of a mortgage as opposed to rent, right?
So if you want to buy, I don't know, a $100,000 condo, I know that that's too low, but don't make me do complicated math in my head.
You've got to put 25% down, that's $25,000.
Whereas if you're renting, you can take that $25,000 and you can put it in the stock market or whatever, right?
And maybe as your mortgage, you have to pay $1,500 a month, whereas if you rent, you only have to pay $1,000 a month.
There's another $500 that you can invest or save or whatever, right?
So all you're doing is comparing all the positives of buying a house and none of the positives of renting.
That's completely unfair.
And so if you're saying, well, there's a risk of divorce, yes, there is, but there's a risk of not getting married, which is dying, right?
Significantly increased.
It's not like, it's a 32% chance?
That's big, right?
So I think like all of these kinds of things, a solution to Marriage is to say, well, marriage is hugely beneficial to me.
It's hugely beneficial to my wife.
It's hugely beneficial to my income.
It's hugely beneficial to my children and my health and my happiness and blah, blah, blah.
So, the question is not, well, the marriage statistics of this, so I'm not going to get married.
I mean, sorry, that's not an answer.
That's not an answer at all.
The real question is, how can I maximize the benefits?
How can I maximize the benefits in my life?
Well, marriage is beneficial.
Divorce is really bad.
So how can I maximize my chances of gaining the benefits of marriage and minimize my chances of facing the risk of divorce?
Now, Daniel, I'm sorry to be so annoyingly lecturing, but do you know why all of this information is kept hidden from you about how to maximize your chances of being happily married?
Because the state wants to replace fathers.
That's part of it.
But it's in the media as well.
Which is not exactly the state.
Pretty much in my mind.
So when I put out a video which says, here's the problems of dating single moms, how is that received?
Well, the feminists and the white-nighters, I'm sure, had their field day with you.
Right.
There are so many people who have completely screwed up their romantic value in any rational universe that there is a massive cadre of people out there fundamentally and elementally opposed to this data.
So there are so many women who've slept around like crazy that then when you put out the data on, well, you're really not very marriageable.
This used to be known.
This used to be widely known.
A woman sleeps around, yeah, go have fun with her, but you don't bring her home to meet your mom, right?
There's a line that Mitch, one of the characters in A Streetcar Named Desire by Tennessee Williams says to Blanche Dubois.
Blanche Dubois comes across as a teetotaling, virtually teetotaling, literary virgin, literate virgin.
And it turns out that she's basically slept with anything that has half a pulse and An overcoat on.
And when her boyfriend, who doesn't know anything about her past, when he finds out about this, he comes over and basically wants to use her for sex and she gets really offended and upset because she thought he was going to marry her and he says, I'm not marrying you now, Blanche.
You're not clean enough to bring in the house with my mother.
And she goes, mental.
And this used to be well known, but now so many women have fallen off into the, like, into the Grand Canyon of the cock carousel that now saying, don't marry a woman who's had 20 partners or even 10, your risk is huge, right?
Don't marry these women.
And I feel sympathy because these women all got this message, and men too, right?
But women all got this message of, hey, have fun, be a party girl, be a woo girl, you know?
But Stefan, when we make these arguments solely based on statistics, aren't we taking away their free will?
I mean, a woman who has had sex with a lot of men still has the free will to hold true to a vow that she might make.
Well, free will is in the beginning of things, not at the end of things.
So I can choose to smoke or not at the beginning of things, right?
Now, if I've been a smoker for 20 years, am I free?
Do I have the same choices?
Am I as free from risk as at the beginning of things?
No, I'm not.
I'm not.
Maybe it's different in my mind because that's physical and this is more of like a mental, emotional kind of thing.
Alright.
Have you ever tried to change someone in your life emotionally?
How'd that go?
I can't say it's impossible.
How did it go?
Sorry?
No, you can't say it's impossible.
Sure.
But that doesn't mean anything other than you really grasp against draws, right?
I don't know.
I mean, I've had business partners who I feel like we've all made incredible progress as far as our ability to handle a lot of different things.
And we've all influenced each other in that way.
Okay, but are these people already in a process of self-growth and self-knowledge?
Or at least...
At the pursuit of better ways of doing things?
To various degrees.
Yeah, okay.
So they're already on that road.
So sure.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
But do you know anything about diet statistics?
How many diets work?
No, I don't know.
It's really bad.
Yeah, like I think about 5% or so of people who try to lose weight keep that weight off.
Ah, yes, but we have free will.
And I would assume, I don't know if this has been proven, but I would assume that...
The more weight you have and the longer your eating habits have been bad, the more difficult it is to change your set weight and all that kind of stuff, right?
Plus the fact is, of course, that, you know, when people say, why are people skeptical about climate change?
It's like, have you read nutrition advice over the past 40 years?
I'll listen to them about the weather in 100 years when they can tell me what to put in my body tomorrow and not change it the day after.
But anyway, salt now is good for you.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter.
It's all politics.
But, you know, so is the other stuff.
So, So no, free will is certainly possible.
Free will is certainly possible.
And I, you know, as I've said a million times, I give this information to people.
So let's say some woman has had 20 partners and she wants to get married.
Well, she's going to say, well, shit, I've really had a lot of sex with a lot of different guys.
And so I better figure out why I did all of that.
And I better pursue self-knowledge and I better get some therapy and I better journal and I better figure out my childhood and I better figure out what the hell happened than to end it up letting guys go at my for JJ like Mexican kids at a piñata party, right?
So yeah, if they pursue all of that, fantastic.
But if they don't if they don't Then you're just putting a hand in a blender hitting frappe and hoping there's a short circuit.
Is it possible?
It is.
Is it wise?
It is not.
So I know that you advise women to practice celibacy when searching for a mate.
I've never said that.
I don't know who you've been listening to.
Well, I mean, all these statistics you're saying.
Mike, you've heard these conversations.
Has the word celibacy ever crossed my lips as an advocate?
Nope.
I do not recall ever saying that celibacy...
But it's interesting that you would get that.
Isn't that what you're saying when you say...
No, no, no, no.
That's not what you said.
No, no, no, no.
That's not what you said.
You said, that's what I said.
Not, well, isn't that implied?
No, no, no.
Those are very, very different things, right?
I don't think there's much difference between implying something and saying it.
Yeah, there is.
There hugely is.
One is you, and one is me, right?
I can see why you're scared of marriage if you don't understand this basic difference.
In fact, I'd really recommend until you understand this basic difference, you don't get married.
Okay, well, help me out.
Celibacy means no sex, and a lot of this, almost all the statistics I pointed out were about what?
Sexual intercourse.
Right.
So, was I even implying celibacy?
Oh, so you're talking about not having sex, like intercourse.
Was I even implying celibacy?
I guess you're talking about a different definition than I would have defined celibacy.
No, no, no.
I very clearly said many, many times in the presentation sexual intercourse.
I even said going all the way a number of times.
Do you remember that at all?
It was on the screen in front of you and I said it repeatedly.
I'm sorry.
I'm not trying to be mean to you.
This is important for you if you want to have a relationship with anyone, right?
I'm sorry, what's the question?
Okay.
When did you watch the presentation on The Truth About Sex?
A couple days ago, when you put it out.
Okay.
So, on the screen, I talked regularly about sexual intercourse.
Hmm.
For age of first sexual intercourse, number of sexual intercourse partners, right?
It's on the screen, plus I said it, right?
Okay.
Okay.
That is not the same as celibacy, right?
Well, that's how I'm using it.
When I say celibacy, I'm talking about not having sexual intercourse.
Mike, could we get a definition of celibacy, please?
Sure thing.
Because I think it means no sex.
I could be wrong.
I could be wrong.
I think...
Virginity means no sexual intercourse.
I think celibacy means, like, preach to celibate, that doesn't mean that they get blowjobs, right?
I think celibacy means not even masturbation.
Okay, so you're advising men not to have sexual intercourse.
Celibacy is voluntarily being unmarried, sexually abstinent, or both, usually for religious reasons.
So sexually abstinent means no sex.
Whereas I was talking about sexual intercourse.
So that's what you advise?
What?
To have sexual interaction except for sexual...
No, no, no.
Hang on.
Listen, weasel boy.
You first had to admit that you were incorrect.
And I'm not saying this because I'm trying to be mean or one-up you.
It's just this is relationship 101.
You said that I said something that I didn't and now you're just kind of trying to move on to something else, right?
Well, I'm sorry.
If I misquoted you, I would have had to say, I'm sorry, I made a mistake.
Okay.
Well, yeah, I guess I feel a little disconnected because I feel like I haven't had much chance to respond to some of your points.
Am I correct in understanding that you're not going to apologize for misquoting me?
No, I'm sorry if I misquoted you.
No, no, not if.
I think we've established that you did.
And I'm not trying to be mean.
I'm not trying to bully you.
But this is self-ownership, right?
This is what you need to learn if you can have a relationship.
Look, we all make mistakes.
I misquote people.
I mean, it turns out that I'm mistaken about the fact that there's one species of mammal that does give birth to eggs, and I just have to correct myself, right?
Yeah.
Well, I'm sorry.
I think I'm trying to get to what I'm interested in and not pick apart the – I really am interested in your advice to men in how to find a mate.
And I feel like a lot of these statistics say, you know, like, don't have sex with women, right?
That's what you're saying?
We're back to this again, right?
Now, by sex, do you mean sexual intercourse or any kind of sex?
Yes, sexual intercourse.
Sexual intercourse.
Okay.
So, the statistics are that the less sexual intercourse you have before you get married, the higher your chances are of success with marriage.
So as someone who hopes to have a family...
You don't need me to tell you what to do when the data is so clear.
Because that's trying to make it about me rather than the data, right?
I present the data.
You're a smart guy.
You've got business partners.
You're intelligent.
You're articulate.
So you can't possibly need me to make suggestions when the data is that clear, right?
This is why you keep wanting to bring it back to me rather than you and the data.
Because you want to make it something that you can reject in me so that you don't have to look at the data, right?
No, I'm not trying to do that.
I'm trying to find a way to be happy, you know, in my relationship life.
And I feel like I've not been able to do that with my current philosophical...
Okay, but you're a smart guy, right?
And I don't tell people what to do in this show.
So what does the data suggest to you if you want to have the happiest possible life?
What does the data suggest to you?
The data says that I should cease sexual activity until I find someone that I think I'm going to marry.
Someone that you really care about, right?
I think the data says that you want to have sex with people in a situation or in a state where if everything keeps going the way it goes marriage would be great.
Say that again.
I mean, you've had relationships before, obviously you said, right?
So you've had relationships before.
At what point in those relationships did you suspect that it wasn't going to work out?
I mean, right now, I started the conversation in this state, which was, I don't think any of them are going to work out because I don't want to get married.
It's like...
When you justified till death do us part, you said women and children, and I feel left out as a man from that justification.
Right, I get that.
So you don't want to have kids?
Not if I have to sign a document with the state, I guess.
If that's my only option, then no, I don't.
Okay.
So, as I said before, you can do whatever you want.
But you just said okay to signing a document with the state.
That's...
I mean, I guess you're right.
I'm trying to get you to tell me what to do.
What do I care if I have to sign a document with the state?
What do I care?
It's the implication that the woman wants you to sign that.
Like, how dare she demand that I submit to her through the state?
Do you think that I was submitting to my wife?
Maybe.
Well, it certainly wasn't the case with me.
Marriage is an ancient institution that has given rise to the greatest civilization the world has ever known.
You enjoy the fruits of that civilization and you want to deny marriage.
Because what marriage does, Daniel, what marriage does, as I talked about before, and you probably haven't heard this part, but I'll keep it very brief.
What marriage does is it allows for the enormous investment of parents into children.
Now, the enormous investment of parents into children is what raises intelligent, well-adjusted, civilized children.
That is the foundation of a peaceful, lawful, I mean, obeying moral laws, not government edicts, a peaceful, trade-based, win-win, negotiation-based, civilized society.
The only reason, fundamentally, we have civilization is because of Massive parental investment in children.
It's called the R versus K reproductive strategy.
We're going to do a show on it.
You can look it up yourself.
But that's how you raise children who are civilized.
And that's the foundation of civilization.
Which is why I focus on parenting more than philosophy in a way, right?
Because that's what's necessary.
And so, given that marriage, pair bonding for life, is the foundation of a stable and successful civilization, when you say, well, it was just my wife lording it over me through the state or whatever, I mean, I just think that's funny.
I mean, it's just, yeah, the government's got involved, so what?
So what?
The government subsidizes books, does that mean I can't read a book?
Right?
I mean, the government developed the internet.
Does that mean I can't have this conversation with you?
Or at least to develop the protocols, right?
I mean, but the difference is, like, instead of going to the government to get your book, you can read a book away from the government and not involve them.
But I feel that I can't not involve the government when it comes to marriage.
Sure you can.
Sure you can.
Absolutely you cannot involve the government if you get married.
Marry an anarchist.
So at least marry a libertarian, right?
So, you know, I mean...
Because they won't.
Look, if the woman is anti-state, then she's not going to bring the state into your relationship.
That would be wonderful, wouldn't it?
But this is what I keep saying to everyone.
Let's get a fucking tribe.
Right?
Let's get a tribe.
You know, we're going to have this Jewish caller on tonight...
Which I hope will come back, because it's like, man, let's learn from our good friends, the Jews, who do tribalism like nobody else.
I mean, they do...
Hey, I'm Jewish.
You know, I remember when I was younger, in college, I went out with a couple of Jewish girls, and it was nice, but they would...
I couldn't get them to commit, and I just didn't get it, because, you know, raised naive or whatever, right?
And then I'm like, oh, right, because they're going to marry Jews.
Because that's 5,000 years.
This is how they keep this stuff going.
And it's not 100%, of course, but it's pretty strong.
Right?
And so, basically, you're like a Jew who's saying to me, well, how am I going to marry someone who's going to respect my Jewish traditions?
It's like, I've got a good idea.
Why don't you marry another Jew?
Right?
You know, that's going to help.
And you're like, well, how do I keep the state out of my marriage?
It's like, marry an anarchist woman, right?
I mean, that's not hard, right?
Well, it's pretty hard to find a female anarchist, I'll tell you.
Well, you know, I hear you on the arguments for marriage, and I'm, you know, I think for me, I'm still not entirely convinced for other reasons.
But let's say that I do believe that marriage is the right way forward.
How do I go find one without pushing women away?
Because it seems to me that women, even more than men, are turned off by pushing for commitment quickly.
Sorry, women are turned off by pushing for commitment quickly?
Another way to put this is women are attracted to men who can, like you said before, have the ability to have sex with a lot of women, and that's normally a man who has sex with a lot of women, right?
So part of me believes that the best way to find a mate is to figure out how to date a lot of women and then pick one.
But when I talk to you about this stuff and the statistics, and I mean, I call it celibacy, but not having sexual intercourse or all these things, that seems to go counter to that.
And it seems to me that I would...
I had a conversation with one of my female friends recently, and she was like, yeah, I spent this time with this guy, and he's just so nice, and he's talking about how he can't date anybody, and she was like...
She told me, she's like, no one will ever be romantically interested in him because he's so nice or whatever.
And I was like, did you say that?
Oh my god, what kind of women are you hanging out with?
No, seriously, what kind of horrible human beings are you hanging out with?
Like this woman, she's literally saying no woman is going to want to get romantically involved with this guy because he's not an asshole.
Well, she then said whoever does end up with him is going to be very happy.
But the thing is that that doesn't generate romantic interest in the beginning with a woman.
So what you do is you get up and you back away from this human being in the same way as if she were a tiger with toxin dripping from its fangs.
No, seriously, this is commitment to your values.
She's openly saying to you that I want a man who's going to mistreat me, who's going to abuse me, who's going to be a jerk.
I see that man over there.
He's nice.
Whoever marries him is going to be happy.
I don't want to have anything to do with him.
That is a horrible human being.
And she is trying to infect you With the fear of niceness.
Nice guys finish last.
Women are only attracted to the bad boys.
Well, first of all, the bad boys are philosophers.
Right?
I mean, those are the real bad boys.
Ooh, he's got a leather jacket.
He drives a Harley.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
UPB. I rest my case.
Voluntary family.
Yeah.
But no, this...
I mean, when a woman tells you What women like and don't like?
She is attempting to reach past your brain, rip out your gonads, and put them on her formaldehyde-laced shelf of captured manhood.
Right?
Because when it comes to rational arguments, she can make a case, she can do this, or she can do that.
But she's going to say, pussy don't blow in that direction.
Pussy don't go there.
Pussy go over there.
And where do men go?
Over there!
Wherever the pussy doesn't go, I don't go.
I follow the pussy.
I'm like one of those Indian tribes after a herd of bison.
Although probably slightly better trimmed.
Maybe a Brazilian wax bison herd.
Right?
Pussy herding over there?
I'm going over there.
Pussy not herding over here?
Well...
Ain't gonna find my pot of gold in a crackerjack box.
I go follow the pussy.
And so whenever women say...
This is what women are looking for.
What they're trying to get you to do is conform to their insanity under the guise of eggs!
Right?
This is where the eggs are.
This is where the eggs are.
And Fifty Shades of Grey is just another one of those things.
The pussy is over here getting hit.
Now, there are Half a dozen nice guys who throw themselves at Dakota Fanning's character in this Dakota Johnson.
Sorry, Dakota Johnson.
There are a dozen nice guys who throw themselves at her.
She has no interest because there's a guy over here with his own helicopter who hits her.
Right?
Pussy's over there.
See, pussy's over there getting hit.
And when a woman is telling you Pussy's over there, not over there.
She's attempting to completely bypass your rational faculty and get you to follow the pussy.
Pussy's running in that direction.
Go run, go run, that's where it all is.
All of it, by the way, all of it.
All the quality pussy is over there.
Ah, maybe you find a couple of fuglies over here, but this over there, over there, that's where all the quality pussy is.
And I can guarantee you that is the exact opposite of where all the quality pussy is.
That is the exact opposite of where all the quality women are.
Because if a woman is saying to you, this is who you have to be to get laid, she's the exact opposite of a quality woman.
Because a quality woman will make a rational case for you.
We'll give you some data, we'll give you some evidence, we'll give you some arguments, we'll give you some facts.
But basically, what she's trying to do, you ever play this game with a dog?
You get the yellow ball they love to catch.
Where's the ball?
You jerk it back and forth until they're just going giddy, and you throw the ball, and they go, ah!
Right?
You're going to go hit the ball, right?
Okay, wrong metaphor, but you know what I mean, right?
Right?
She's just attempting to hypnotize you.
Look, bouncy ball!
Pussies over there.
Go, go!
So you are saying that you don't believe that this is true, that women in general...
I mean, if you show up on the first date and start talking about marriage, or maybe even on the third date, I don't know.
I guess it just runs counter to all the things that I've tried to learn about how to be good with women, because I'm not good with women, or I wasn't before I started...
I'm glad you're not good with women if these are the women you're around.
You wouldn't want to be good with those kinds of women, right?
No, I mean, you don't have to talk about marriage.
I don't want to be miserable.
I don't want to be celibate.
You go on a date and you listen.
Just listen to what the woman is saying.
She'll tell you everything you need to know probably in the first five minutes.
So let's say I find one that I'm interested in.
How do you get to where you want to be?
That's what my wife said to me.
She said, I'm not interested in a fling.
So you've got to wait for her to say it?
Oh no, you can say it.
No reason why you couldn't say it.
She was being honest.
Was I offended by that?
Good lord, no.
I thought, well that's a brave and honest thing to say.
This is a person I even want to get to know better.
Now, if a woman doesn't understand that her vagina is for babies, then she's not smart enough for you to make one with.
The vagina is for babies.
The penis is for babies.
Nothing wrong with it being recreational.
I get all of that.
Nothing wrong with it at all.
That's what it's for.
But you don't acknowledge the other aspects of...
I'm sorry?
You don't acknowledge the other aspects of, like, sex.
I mean, people who have sex are happier and healthier.
People who have sex are happier and healthier.
I don't acknowledge the other aspects of sex?
Yeah, you're saying I get that, but then you dismiss it.
When did I dismiss it?
Oh, this is the part of you impugning what I want and making up what you think is emotionally useful to you, right?
This is the part where you've stopped listening to me and are just kind of bullshitting now, right?
Well, why do you present the statistics if you don't think that there's a more correct path?
Yes, but did I say a dismissal of sex?
Didn't we just have a conversation where I specifically denied celibacy?
You remember that.
This was not more than 20 minutes ago, right?
Yeah, of course.
Of course.
So then saying that I dismiss all of the aspects of sexuality is not true, right?
Well, you made it very clear that you were talking about or that celibacy does not include other aspects of sex, but I don't think that you said those things should be practiced by individuals or that perhaps it would be beneficial.
So the fact that I didn't say something explicit to you then translates into I've dismissed it all.
You didn't ask me a question.
You just assumed and went on as if it was perfectly, as I've had completely admitted, to dismiss all other aspects of sexuality.
And the reason I'm stopping you on this kind of stuff is not because I want to be mean to you, but the problem is you make these outlandish statements about things that I haven't said, and then you just kind of want to keep moving.
And the reason I want to stop you from doing that, you need to know that you do this.
And the reason I'm doing this is because I want good women to date you.
Well, thanks, Steph.
And if you have this habit, a good woman is going to fucking run.
Because you can't communicate with someone if you keep imagining what they're saying as an absolute, and then when they push back, you pretend that you're right, and then you pretend nothing happened, try to move on to another topic.
It's crazy making.
It's not crazy making for me, because I'm not going to date you, right?
But if I was a woman of quality, I would look at this habit of yours and say, that guy...
There's just no way we can have a productive discussion because he doesn't even know that he's making up things that I never said.
I was asking you the question.
I was jumping to a conclusion, but I was asking you if that was true.
Mike, what did you hear?
Because I heard him say, you just dismissed this other stuff.
That's what was said, Daniel.
Yeah, that's what was said.
So now you're just trying to change the story.
And look, you're a kid of divorce.
Like, I get it.
I get it.
You don't have this stuff modeled for you.
But I'm trying to get you to a more quality status of interaction, right?
And if you, like, you say these outlandish things that I've never said or hinted, as if they're just facts.
And then when I call you on it, You evade.
You avoid.
You're now rewriting what you said.
And these are just bad habits.
Look, they're just bad habits.
And it's because I care.
People sometimes think I'm being mean or whatever.
It's like, no, I'm accurately reflecting back to you what it's like to interact with you.
And I'm sorry that more other people aren't doing this.
But this is why you're with women who say, oh, this guy is so nice.
A woman would be lucky to have him.
I'm going the opposite direction.
Those kinds of people are never going to call you out on this kind of stuff.
Right?
This is the nicest thing that I could possibly do for you.
I'm not.
I don't think you're doing this maliciously.
I appreciate it.
Oh, good.
Okay.
And I'm not.
I'm really not.
I want you to know that you have this habit.
Look, Daniel, we all have bad habits in communication.
Once I was arrogant and dismissive.
I remember, well, it was 1993.
No, I'm just kidding, right?
But we all have these bad habits in our interactions.
Of course we do.
I mean, A, we're human beings, we're flawed, and we have so much bad templates, right?
But...
So how do I fix this particular issue?
But you're saying people are healthier if they have sex, right?
And again, that's not something I said, but it's an outlandish statement to say when people, women have had abortions who have lots of sex partners.
Abortions raise significant risks of health issues.
Um...
I think it was up to half of the women who've had multiple sex partners, a lot of sex partners.
Can we talk about men though?
Because I feel like...
No, we don't have the data for men.
We're looking for it.
We don't have the data for men.
But you're saying people are healthier if they have sex.
No, they're not.
I mean men, maybe.
Well, you think men can't get STDs?
You think if a man gets a woman pregnant, that's not stressful for him?
Stress is not bad for them?
Well, obviously.
You get it, right?
Yeah.
Now, orgasm, right?
Sure.
Right, that's what I'm talking about.
You've got to clean your pipes, right?
So you masturbate or you can have non-vaginal sex or whatever it is, right?
But the point is that if you have lots of sex with women you don't really love or care about or respect, if you have lots of sex with low-quality women, You are programming yourself to have a sexual response to low-quality women.
This is the problem, right?
Well, that's an argument I can understand.
I mean, if you keep masturbating to the surgery channel, soon you won't be able to walk past a butcher shop without humping half a cow, right?
Worst porn ever.
Do we have a title for the show yet, Mike?
I think we do.
I don't know.
People say, you should do a show about metaphors.
It's like, I don't have metaphors.
Metaphors have me.
That's all I can tell you.
But, yeah, I mean, that's my, you know, what's your Pavlovian response?
Low quality woman is good health, sexy, fun time, right?
Can I just say, too, there is no rule saying do not have sexual intercourse until you are married or until you're with the person that you're going to marry.
But the data says very clearly that the more sexual partners you have, for women, at least in this category, we don't have the data on men because no one gives a shit about male happiness.
That's all another story.
That's how I feel.
No, I tell you, when I was looking for that, it was the first thought that came to my mind.
It's like, oh, sexual partners and happiness, no data on men.
There you go.
But there is no rule.
But the data says, hey, if you're just indiscriminately having casual sex, the more partners you have, the decreased likelihood of long-term happiness.
It's correlated with a whole bunch of negative stuff.
This doesn't mean never have sex until you're married, ever.
But if you care about your emotional well-being and health, wait till you're with someone who you like, value, respect, and can imagine yourself being with potentially in the future.
Don't just, hey, I found you on Tumblr or Tinder.
Tinder?
Tinder is what I'm talking about.
I found your profile on Tinder and you're five miles from my house.
I'm going to drive over and we're going to bang on your mother's carpet or something.
Wait until you find someone who...
That's going on.
Oh, it's definitely going on.
And where are those people going to be 30 years from now?
You know, the lipstick parties or, you know, I remember I was...
I lived in a house once with four gay guys and a lesbian and the gay guy was telling me...
One of the gay guys was telling me a story about how a guy called him.
It was the wrong number and they ended up having sex.
Oh, yeah.
I think I've heard you tell that story.
Yeah, and it's like, wow.
Or, you know, like, yeah, my current partner, we had sex, we introduced ourselves, and now we're dating.
Didn't last, right?
We put this information out there so people can make informed decisions for themselves.
There are no rules.
You know, there are no rules.
You cannot have sex until marriage.
I do think there's a rule if we're talking about morality, though.
I mean, if it's a moral issue, there should be a rule, even if it's not an enforcement state.
But what does this have to do with morality?
This is all consensual.
We weren't talking about rape.
Right, well, you mentioned the word morality early on in our discussion, and I think that's one of my big things, is I feel like morality is applied to marriage.
I think it should be applied to...
You can't be doing this again.
No, you did say the word morality at the beginning of the show.
Daniel, you can't be doing this again.
You can't be then impugning to me some moral statement because I used the word morality.
Okay, maybe I misinterpreted it.
You just went through this two times, right?
I must have misinterpreted it then.
Well, you know my philosophy, right?
Or you know the moral arguments, right?
In any of this, have we talked about the initiation of the use of force?
Well, you said who cares about signing a document with the state?
That's...
That's the state initiating the use of force.
I didn't defend the morality of the government getting involved in it.
I said, what does it matter to me?
Okay.
Right?
So, when it comes to sexuality, we have not at all been talking about The initiation is the use of force, right?
That's the truth about rape culture.
That's a separate presentation, right?
Good.
Okay, just so we're clear.
Now, if kids are involved...
Right, well, I think that, yeah.
I think till death to us apart, it should be applied to the children.
Okay, well, fine.
I mean, first of all, kids can't engage in a contract, right?
Well, no, it's a one-way, like, the parent says, I will take care of this child for the rest of their X period of time, probably for the rest of their life.
That is, well, the rest of their life.
I don't think that's reasonable, right?
Well, but they should be in their lives.
And that is already the rule.
That is already the law, right?
I mean, you can't just choose to not feed your kids, right?
I mean, it's illegal.
You can't choose to not get the medical attention.
You can't choose to not provide them a shelter.
I mean, you can give them up for adoption if you want, but you can't keep them and not take care of them.
That's already the law.
And that would be the rule in a free society.
Well, you've got to have kids and not feed them, right?
That's murder.
So, you say this until death do you part.
Well, I mean, that's...
You don't have to feed your wife, but you do have to feed your kids, right?
So what you're asking for is already part of the common law.
Well, yeah, I'm saying that putting marriage on top of it is unbalanced towards the needs of men, I think.
But, you know, I think you've done a very good job of helping me.
No, no, but I just want to sort of tie that loop together.
So it is to the interests of men that men get married.
Right.
It is to the interest of men that men get married.
And I think you did talk about some of that.
So it is to the best interest of men to have until death do you part.
It's better for their children.
They get themselves higher quality women.
The longer you sign the contract for, the better cell phone you can get, right?
Right, right.
So you get a higher quality woman if you're willing to commit for longer.
Because a higher quality woman in a rational environment is going to be very high on the bidding block of egg-bending, right?
And so the longer you're willing to commit to that woman, the more likely you are to get a higher quality woman, the more likely you are to get an intelligent woman.
Because an intelligent woman is going to be thinking about what happens down the road.
Okay, I'm 25 now, what about when I'm 65?
She's going to be thinking about that.
In other words, date a woman who's got a retirement savings plan at the age of 25.
That's who you want to be with because she's thinking ahead, right?
And this divorce is, you know, divorce fundamentally.
And I'm not talking about, you know, some guy gets a brain tumor and turns into a homicidal maniac.
I'm talking about like stupid, shitty divorce.
Like just immature people lashing out at each other and just being jerks.
Divorce fundamentally happens because people aren't willing to look at the long term.
What are the long-term consequences of this?
What's gonna happen?
What's gonna happen?
Is it worth, quote, winning this fight now and losing my family?
Well, very short-sighted people, which is the nicest way I can put it, they want to win now.
I think they're what Dr.
Phil calls right fighters.
They just gotta be right.
Just gotta be right.
They don't care what damage they do, just to be right.
And the reason why more intelligent people Don't get divorced.
Is there smart enough to say...
And it's not just intelligence.
There's wisdom as a category as well.
But culture has taken away the wisdom that accumulated over the past couple of thousands of years.
It's taken it away.
It means you have to be pretty smart to figure out what pretty dumb people used to know in the past because our cultural legacy of the value of monogamy has just been vaporized.
And so you have to be smart now to figure stuff out that used to be handed to people in a very obvious fashion in the past.
Through religion and through other things as well.
And smarter people though, they get it.
It's like, okay, so I might win this fight, but am I going to hurt my partner?
Am I going to hurt my marriage?
If I escalate until the other person crumbles, if I just get madder and madder until the other person folds, I guess I dominate in the moment.
But what the hell happens to my marriage in the long run?
So smart people don't want to do that.
So just marry someone who's smart.
Marry someone who thinks for herself.
She doesn't have to be an anarchist.
She just has to be a thinker.
Somebody who thinks.
Somebody who respects data.
Somebody who would never dream of saying, that man will make any woman happy.
And most women want to have nothing to do with him.
He's never going to get married.
That is an unbelievably vile and manipulative and ghastly and destructive thing to say.
You may not believe me now, but if you meditate on it, you get it.
I agree with you.
I understand what you're saying.
I actually have another woman in my life who meets a lot of these criteria, but I feel like we're not sexually compatible.
I mean, how do you deal with that?
What do you mean you're not sexually compatible?
Where the hell is her vagina?
On her elbow?
I mean, like, she wants to have sex once or twice a week, and I'd rather be like...
She wants to have sex once or twice a week?
Have you been dating?
Yeah.
So she's...
Wait, so from a personality standpoint, she works, right?
Intelligence, personality, values, that kind of stuff?
Um...
More than any other woman I've been with.
I wouldn't say that she's quite there.
That pause was telling, Daniel.
I just want to say.
No, okay, but that's fine.
I mean, apparently he could have sex with 17 other women in that pause, so I can't say that.
I wouldn't say that.
Okay, no, this is good.
This is good.
So she's compatible.
She's willing to date you in your current state of emotional development, which I don't want to say is primordial, but it's not Elysium field yet, right?
So obviously she can't be much further ahead than where you are, right?
And again, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but you have some relationship challenges which you're not particularly aware of yet, right?
I'll have to listen back.
Yeah, yeah.
Listen back.
Listen back.
I get it.
And listen, if I've completely misremembered or made a mistake, then let me know and I'll apologize for that in the next show with this going off my memory.
So she's willing to date you, which means that you do share some values, but has she pushed back on what I've identified as your potential habit of making up what other people say and pretending it's true or whatever?
However, I'm trying to think of a nice way to put it, right?
But...
Of interpreting what people say and not asking for clarification, but just assuming your interpretation is correct.
Which is, you get that's doom in a relationship, right?
Yeah, no, I do think I have a predisposition to taking things, like, all the way to their logical conclusion, or how I see it as the logical conclusion.
Oh boy, what an insult that is to me.
What an insult that is to me.
No, I'm saying, like, I may be flawed in my...
No, listen, man, I'm totally getting a picture of your parents' marriage here.
You are one manipulative guy, and it's not conscious.
You're not trying to do it.
I get it.
But you're saying that you're rational and consistent and I'm not willing to be rational and consistent with regards to my viewpoint, right?
That is so insulting.
I'm not insulted because I get where it's coming from.
I jumped to conclusions.
But even in this conversation, man, I'm telling you this because I care.
Even in this conversation, you've actually just been incorrect.
You say, well, I go to the rational conclusions.
It's like, man, I've been studying philosophy over 30 years.
Well, that's what I just said.
I just said I may not be doing it right, so I may not be reaching the right conclusions.
But I do have that, I think, in my life, like when I... Well, then you're not taking things to the rational conclusions if you're incorrect.
Yeah.
Right?
It's like saying, I'm perfect at math, but the answer is wrong.
Well, you can't have it both ways, right?
If you are taking things to their rational conclusions and you're wrong, then you're not being rational, right?
That's the nicest way of ever—it's the most self-praising way and other insulting way of saying I'm wrong that I think I've heard in a long time, and that's impressive.
I'm telling you, and again, I don't mean this in any other negative way.
I'm like, well, you see, the problem is I'm just too rational for you, Steph.
I go to the rational conclusion.
Maybe they're incorrect, but they're still perfectly rational even though you're not— It's like, wow.
Oh, man.
I'm trying to hold some level of dignity here.
I mean, I thought that when you said—when you present— No, no, don't.
Don't.
Let's just keep going.
Okay, so this woman, have you dated her exclusively?
Yes.
For how long?
Two years.
And is she your current girlfriend?
No.
And when did you break up with her?
Last year.
Right around this time.
And why did you break up?
Because she saw that I had texted another girl.
Ah, okay.
And was this the first time that you had texted another girl, so to speak?
No.
I did it once before.
So, you had done it once before?
Yes.
And were you looking for...
Did you have your eye on other women in this relationship?
No.
My perspective is that...
Well, you're into polyamory, right?
So monogamy for you is not what you build your tables from, so to speak, right?
Yeah, I guess that's true.
I don't think I actually recognize that about myself until...
I don't know.
I've gone back and forth.
Let's go back.
I don't know what that means, recognize this about myself.
Hey, look, I have a mustache.
Self-knowledge, right?
No, no, no.
Were you in a monogamous relationship with this woman, or at least was that her perspective?
Yes.
Okay, so did you know that you were in a monogamous relationship with her?
Yes.
Okay, and you were interested in other women?
Yes.
Okay.
And how long into the relationship, and we don't know who she is, we don't even know who you are, so you might as well just be up front.
how long into the relationship were you interested in other women or was that throughout the course of that relationship?
Trying to remember...
I feel like the way I remember it now, which may not be perfect or accurate, is after the first year or year and a half.
So after the first year or year and a half, you became interested in other women or more interested in other women.
Right.
And do you know why that happened?
My current belief is that it's because we're sexually incompatible.
She said no to me so many times that I couldn't mentally handle staying in that relationship.
And why did she say no to you?
Have you ever seen that spreadsheet that guy put up of all the different reasons his wife said no to him?
No, but the real reasons.
Oh, I... I mean, I don't know.
I know the reasons she gave me, but they were...
It was like, you know, I'm tired, or...
She would just get distracted, you know, she...
We just ate...
There's so many...
So many little things...
Right.
She had a way of interrupting intimate moments, you know?
Right.
And do you know much about her background?
I guess you did, right?
I mean, so...
Yeah, I mean, I met her parents and stuff, so...
And her parents were together?
Yes.
Okay.
All right.
And...
Do you think that you're good in bed?
Yes, I would say.
But she didn't, particularly, right?
Maybe.
Maybe that's why.
I don't know.
Well, I would say that based upon the empirical evidence, she preferred other things to having sex with you, right?
Right.
And did you communicate about...
I'm sure you did, right?
I'm sorry to be so intimate, but we're talking about an intimate topic.
I mean, did you ask her what she liked sexually?
Did you figure out what, you know, really worked for her?
Yeah, I definitely tried to do that, and I didn't really get many answers, if any, at all.
Right.
Yeah, I mean, in my experience, a low-quality woman's heart opens, or vagina opens, with a lack of trust.
But a quality woman's heart and vagina opens with the presence of trust.
Does that make sense?
I'm not saying do you agree, but do you sort of understand what I'm saying?
No, I think that's exactly what happened with her.
At least that's what she tells me.
Like, from her perspective...
Actually, thank you for saying that.
I think...
She would tell me, especially towards the end of the relationship, that she didn't feel like I was taking care of her.
Or that I wasn't going to care for her the way that she wanted to be cared for.
And so...
We were at this impasse, and we're still at this impasse.
Like, you know, we've talked about maybe dating again, but...
For her, it's like, I feel like you're not going to take care of me the way I want to be taken care of.
And my point to her is, I feel like you want me to make all these commitments to you.
And I feel like, to me, and maybe this is a bad perspective, but that means that the sex is not for its own enjoyment, it's because you're doing all these things for me.
It feels very transactional.
Right, right.
Now, because you're the child of divorce, and this is just very general, right?
But because you are a child of divorce, it's more likely than not, Daniel, that you have a heightened sex drive with Intimacy issues.
In other words, you want more sex than you want intimacy.
Sex is not necessarily a reflection of intimacy or a way that you connect.
Sex is something that your body hungers for and the intimacy is not necessary.
I'm not saying it's not welcome or it's not there or never there, but just general.
Again, this is the R versus K reproductive strategy.
Children of divorce are programmed more towards the short-term reproductive strategies.
In other words, there's a reason why there's this hypersexuality in a divorce culture.
So, kids of divorce, want crazy amount of sex, have incredibly heightened, significantly heightened sexual responses, and in some senses, damn the consequences.
Now, if your girlfriend, you said her parents were still together, right?
Yes.
Yeah, so your girlfriend would be more likely to have a longer-term reproductive strategy, which would be around, you know, the old thing that men say, well, I'll feel close to you after we have sex, and the women say, we'll have sex when I feel close to you.
Exactly.
I get it, I get it.
So if you have a sex drive that is not intimacy-driven, But is short-term reproductive strategy driven based upon being the child of divorce?
And in a culture of hypersexuality, of fragmented families, of the shift towards shorter-term reproductive strategies, then you're basically like...
And again, I'm characterizing this very coarsely and I apologize for that because I get that there's subtleties and qualities and affections in the relationship.
But basically there's a part of you that may be like...
I have an overflowing of seed, my cup runneth over, I need to put it in.
One sex.
One sex, one sex.
And there's a part of her, because she's into longer-term reproductive strategies, that is not going to be turned on by that.
In fact, it's kind of the opposite, right?
Sounds pretty accurate.
And so this is one of the challenges, that without the self-knowledge of saying, What am I programmed for sexually?
Well, you're programmed for spray and pray.
Which is why polyamory and polygamy and this is why these things are of interest to you.
Because you're primed for that reproductive strategy.
Because you grew up a child of divorce, right?
And so for you, saying we should be in a monogamous relationship is...
I mean...
Your ex-girlfriend did not have a huge maximum plethora of sexual partners.
Is that right?
No.
No, right?
So it would be like you saying to her, well, you should just go have one night stands.
And what would she say?
She would say, I can't imagine doing that.
Right.
And so she would have the same relationship to...
Shorter-term reproductive strategies that you have to longer-term reproductive strategies.
It's not philosophical, it's just biologically how we're wired.
Right?
I mean, if we grow up In a chaotic and dislocated family situation, then pair bonding for maximum investment in children is not going to work in that environment.
Our bodies say, okay, so we are not in a stable environment.
We are in an environment of families breaking up and we're into short-term reproductive strategies, so let's crank up the sex drive and let's reduce the need for intimacy and let's do the spray-and-pray, frog-squirting-in-a-stream approach to making kids.
Whereas your girlfriend, your ex-girlfriend, she grew up in a pair-bonded environment, so she's like, okay, so sex is a manifestation of togetherness, and deferral of gratification is important, and we want monogamy, we want maximum investment in children, right?
Yeah.
And so when you say, well, we're just sexually incompatible, well, it's not accidental.
This is how human beings have this amazing ability, and I think lots of animals do, but I think we're really great at it, We adapt to the environment based upon the signals in the womb.
Like you said in your presentation, we're programmable.
Yeah, we're programmable.
And so even the hormones that were coursing around through your mother's system if she's having an affairs when you're three, I mean, this is not a good marriage, right?
So there's stress, there's problems, and this programs your balls to spread far and wide, you know?
So, do I need to get to a point where I want to be monogamous or should I just pull the trigger and close my eyes and do it despite all my biology telling me not to?
Well, that's neuroplasticity, man.
I mean, just because this is the way you're born and the way the environment of your youth, that's like saying, well, I can't ever learn Japanese.
Well, sure you can, right?
I mean, you can learn a different methodology of interacting, right?
Right.
So, yeah.
Okay.
And, I mean, you can recognize that the short-term reproductive strategy is going to get you some more varied sex in the short run, but it's not going to work out.
Because the short-term reproductive strategy is not really designed, it's designed for a life expectancy of like 24.
Right?
Why would children grow up without a parent?
Children will grow up without a parent because the environment is very dangerous.
See, this is what divorce tells us we're at war.
Divorce tells us we're starving to death.
Divorce tells us there's a plague.
Divorce tells us we ain't gonna live long.
So, fuck monogamy.
Fuck long-term investment in kids.
To hell with that.
Our days in this world are not many.
That's what divorce programs children's bodies.
To grow up in a situation of war, famine, plague, pestilence, and sudden and early death.
It is a throwback to the most primitive conditions of our species.
Divorce brings the Stone Age to Manhattan.
And society...
Can't survive it.
Unless it's changed.
So your reproductive strategy is like, are you kidding me?
80?
I ain't gonna make it to 28.
Right?
And you can see some extremes of this in, you know, like the gangbanger community.
It's like, try it as an adult.
I'm never gonna make it to adulthood.
So I might as well have nine kids by nine different girls and Go out in a blaze of glory.
I'm not putting you in that category, obviously, but...
Well, I should talk about some of my gang-banging activities, but never mind.
Yeah, yeah.
I think you're probably switching the term a little bit there, but yeah.
But this is what divorce does.
This is how destabilizing it is.
And so, yeah, with self-knowledge, with an understanding, we all want our particular biological niche to be good, right?
And to make the opposite or different biological niche to be bad, right?
So you have a short-term reproductive strategy and you say, that's good.
Why should we be this way?
Monogamy is overrated.
It's, you know, it's the state, right?
So you want to take that which was inflicted on you against your will.
And which shaped your sexual development.
If what I'm saying is true.
Please understand this is all just theories and I'm certainly no expert.
I'm right there with you right now.
Okay, good, good.
And I don't ever want, you know, because I happen to be glib and have a few more facts than most, I don't want to convince you of something that is not part of your experience.
So I just really want to be clear about that.
But I think that...
You want to make it good and you want to make the opposite bad, which is why you're polarizing the stuff and why this data is challenging you.
And the data is challenging you because deep down you know you're going to live for a long time and you're not programmed to live for a long time, like sexually.
And so the data is bothering you because it's unmasking or revealing some of the traumas that led you to a short-term reproductive strategy.
And particularly since infidelity and divorce was part of it, That is a challenge to you.
And then you had a girl who was into a long-term reproductive strategy.
And look, that doesn't mean...
The answer then is not like, okay, well if you're into a girl with a long-term reproductive strategy, you only get sex once or twice a week.
That is not the reality.
That is not the reality.
But if you haven't understood this about yourself and had real conversations, and I again would suggest therapy is a very important thing in this process, but if you haven't done that kind of stuff, this stuff is going to be A big stumbling block for you.
And you'll be sexually drawn back to the short-term reproductive strategy which has diminishing returns in terms of happiness.
Or you'll get into a relationship with somebody who's willing to pair bond but you've got this undertow of a short-term reproductive strategy which is why you're texting other girls and things get messy and problematic, right?
So until you know all of this about yourself, and look, I'm right there with you.
I mean, the reason I'm talking about this stuff with hopefully some reasonable measure of accuracy is this is my journey.
I mean, I was absolutely primed for short-term reproductive strategies.
Absolutely primed for it.
Absolutely primed for it.
And that was my youth.
That's not my adulthood.
Or at least my later adulthood.
And so, you know, I'm not trying to lecture you from some, ah, you know, I was, you know, probably, and I don't mean, not competitive, but probably even more so than you, was primed for this spray and pray reproductive strategy.
But it's not how it has to be.
As you say, we have choices.
Yeah.
I wish we had the data for men, because I really feel like there's an aspect to male sexuality that needs to, like, go out and Biologically, men, of course, sacrifice far less for pregnancy than women do, right?
So men do have an urge, probably have more of a biological drive to spray and pray, right?
I mean, it's like, you know, 20 minutes and a nap, as opposed to nine months of pregnancy, 18 months of breastfeeding, and 20 years of raising, right?
You guys are getting a lot of donations.
You can commission a study, right?
Oh, listen, if we keep getting more donations, I'd love to commission studies.
Yeah, Michael's on it.
I like it.
Oh, there's so much stuff we could do.
All these studies that are politically incorrect that will never get government funding.
I would love to commission this kind of stuff.
I mean, if people donate to the show, this is the stuff we'd love to do.
I would love to do that stuff.
I mean, there's a lot of questions that I'd like answers to in formal studies that we can't get right now.
Sure, we have a theory about some stuff, but it would be great to have the confirmation.
But politically correct world, a lot of studies just aren't going to get funded.
So, freedomainradio.com slash donate.
Help!
Help!
I do it.
Cool studies!
I subscribe!
Woo!
Well, I appreciate that, and I hope you'll keep subscribing.
But we'd have to actually care about male sexuality.
In other words, male sexuality would have to be viewed as a positive force within society.
Because the only male sexuality that, quote, gets studied is rape culture, which is...
Well, yeah, you just hit it on the head for me.
I feel like I want my sexuality to be good, but I feel like everything around me has told me that it's not.
Especially polyamory.
No, and it is good.
Male sexuality is the most...
It's equal to women's, but it's the most beneficial force In society.
For society.
For kids, it's women's sexuality.
But, I mean, there's a reason why the Apple Watch is coming out.
And the reason why the Apple Watch is coming out is so that men can get messages from women, and men can wear it to impress women.
And that civilization is, let's make women comfortable.
Let's build a bridge so that I can go visit more women.
Let's get cars so that I can go and pick up women.
Let's have computers so that I can A, look at pornography and B, hopefully contact some women, right?
And why are there movies?
So that you can get to a dark place with a woman, right?
I mean, it's not meant to be sinister in any way, shape or form.
But why do we have civilization?
It's for competition for eggs.
Right?
Male competence, male expertise, male resource gathering is fundamentally about egg-bidding.
And there's nothing wrong with that, and it's perfectly wonderful and benevolent.
And of course, but that's going to be horrendous for people, because women are incredibly susceptible to guilt and social pressure, which is why women can't stand to hear how necessary men are for the raising of children.
Because all the women who listen to the crap pitched at them by the left that men aren't necessary, men are bad, men are mean, men are devils, whatever, right?
Well, they try and raise these kids without men, and they just do a terrible job.
Women are terrible at raising children without men in general.
And it's horrible to hear that if that's your life.
And so there's been enough of a tipping point of people who've made bad decisions now that if you point out these bad decisions, you're just going to get attacked because so many people have made so many bad decisions based on bad or withheld information.
That there's a big enough constituency now of bad decision makers that there's a huge enough number of people willing to attack anyone who points out these bad decisions.
And this is why we've kind of reached the tipping point where all we can do is illuminate our path down to hopefully get a slightly softer bounce.
I think that's all we can hope for right now.
The mainstream media is not going to start publishing about how bad it is to raise children without men.
I mean, there's just there's so many single moms in the world and particularly in the States.
And there's so many white knights and so many of the call the manginas who will go out and just vigorously defend all the terrible decisions that women have made.
And again, with some sympathy, right?
I mean, it's ancient wisdom, but it's been obscured for the last generation or two.
It's brutal.
And this is there's so much of a constituency now of people who've made terrible decisions and will feel so bad.
If they if those terrible decisions are exposed and understood, all they do is attack anyone who makes them feel bad.
And that, of course, is the great challenge.
It does seem to be slightly more common among men to be able to withstand social criticism and social pressures, for reasons I've talked about on this show before.
It's lots of great, heroic, noble women, some of whom have been on the show and more we'd like to get on.
But I think it's men's job to say, a little bit more men's job to say, look, these are the facts.
I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable, but these are the facts.
And the reason for that is just basically honoring women.
You know, men have had lots of facts thrown at them that make men uncomfortable, some of which are even true.
And, you know, we're supposed to suck it up and learn and it's like, okay, so we're just going to extend the same courtesy and respect to women to treat them like guys.
Right?
I said to you, these are the facts, you know?
So, that's my approach with women too.
Now, if people say to me, well, you can't say those kinds of things to women, they get too upset.
I'm like, okay, well then...
So let's stop pretending that they're equal.
But right now, until told otherwise, especially as a father of a daughter, I'm going to treat women as equal to men.
And if they don't like that, or if people find that too appalling, then let's have an honest conversation about how women aren't equal to men, but I'm going to need a hell of a lot of data to even remotely consider that.
Because then I'll have to say to my daughter, you're not equal to a man, and I won't do that.
So I'm going to continue to treat women as equal to men, which means, sorry, if the data says tough stuff, the data says tough stuff.
And we need to make better decisions.
Yeah.
All right.
Listen, man.
I think we're done, right?
I think we are.
So I hope you'll think about some therapy.
I hope you'll look at these.
We've got more Truth About Sex presentations coming out just because Mike really loves looking for the thumbnails.
I think that's the main driver.
Did I make the joke about hours of research?
Yeah, yeah.
I thought it was like 30 to 45 seconds of research.
That's what I got from the last memo that was circulated.
I need a new keyboard.
Third one this week.
So yeah, I mean, I hope that's been helpful.
I really, really appreciate your patience in a really luxury kind of conversation, but I really appreciate your persistence.
It's a very, very important topic.
And man, Daniel, you know you're not alone in this, right?
I mean, this is a whole generation of men and women.
It doesn't make you feel much better.
Yeah, well, it's not supposed to in the first place, right?
It's worse that way, right?
And I'm sorry to all the other callers, but yeah, I mean, I don't think I've got juice for another one, but that's just a lot of concentration.
Sorry, Dan, you were going to say?
Oh, yeah.
Well, I'm sorry to the other callers as well, but I really, really appreciate it.
To me, I feel like I've been focusing on this for a year.
Ever since I broke up with that girl, I've been just kind of trying to figure this part of my life out, and if I don't figure it out, I'm going to be unhappy.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you're still in, it sounds like you're still in contact to her, you know, shoot her a copy of this when it comes out and let us know what she thinks.
Oh yeah, she would definitely listen to this.
So before I sign off, I wanted to give you an idea, although I know, I feel like I was pushing you to tell me what to do, but I would love for there to be some sort of collection of your advice or what the data says or the reason and evidence in terms of making some of these big choices in life.
I know you've done presentations on so many different topics, including sex and relationships, but also finding a job and being an entrepreneur and friendships.
Yeah, so break the rule and it's like, here's the stuff to do.
Yeah, exactly.
Anarchy rules is apparently made to be broken.
I'll take down the fourth wall and just like, okay, do this shit and be happy.
Yeah.
No, it's a great idea.
It is a great idea.
And that way I can say, I almost never tell people what to do.
There's so many bits of your insights and wisdom dropped throughout all these different podcasts, and I'm sure throughout all your books and everything, it would be fantastic to have them collected into one place.
But I know that's probably...
It sounds a little bit too traceable back to me.
I like to scatter all this stuff around so nobody can find it.
What is that old song I did years ago, Podcast 500?
All podcasts of note are impossible to quote.
Search in vain for what you think I might have said.
You'll never catch the big chatty forehead.
But no, I think that's a great idea, Daniel.
I appreciate that.
And thanks again for your support.
I mean, it means the world, literally the world to the world.
I think how much philosophy we're able to get out there precisely because of people like yourself and you.
So, of course, as Mike said, if you are listening to this and want to help out, that's what we need from you.
Freedomainradio.com slash donate.
Sign up for a subscription, one-time donation, take some electronic currency, too.
Hugely and massively appreciated.
So thanks, everyone.
I guess we're back on Saturday night for our regular philosophy conversation.
Sorry, sorry, sorry to the people who were listening, but this is such an important topic.
You know, we have to start outbreeding the statists, and I think Daniel's Balls is a great place to get the ball rolling.
