Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

Feb. 27, 2015 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:57:47

2920 The Big Picture - Wednesday Call In Show - February 25th, 2015

How can one deal with social anxiety - especially when it comes to dating? Are there negative consequences for adult children being financially dependent on their parents? Doesn’t atheism require the burden of proof to claim that god doesn’t exist? In the recent “There Are No Solutions” video, you said there are no solutions, but is that really true?

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Good evening, everybody.
	Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain Radio.
	I hope you're doing well.
	Welcome to your Wednesday night philosophical smorgasborgexrapaganda.
	We have a lot of callers tonight.
	I won't snap my Depends, but you can be fairly confident that they are right below camera angle.
	So, thanks so much for joining us.
	Please don't forget that, yeah, it's like I'm an astronaut driving cross-country.
	I don't know.
	That's a very obscure media reference.
	But anyway, I hope you're having a great day.
	Please, please remember to come and help us out.
	February, not April, is the cruelest month.
	February is the cruelest month because it's a short month for those of us who rely on donations.
	But yet...
	You still have to pay the same amount for the stuff, even though it's a short month.
	So if you could help us out, freedomainradio.com slash donate, that's where you go to do that thing you know you need to do.
	You know, those 500 to a million, 500,000 to a million people out there, if I could just get 10% of you, say, to go and donate to us, then I could replace this white backdrop with...
	A giant aquarium.
	Yeah, that would be a good use of your donation dollars.
	Pole dancing.
	Wrong show.
	Sorry?
	Wrong show.
	I could put on my very own YouTube version of Puppetry of the Penis.
	Google it and be afraid.
	And yeah, so I mean, we always are looking forward to your donations.
	They do keep the philosophical fires burning.
	It is important for our enthusiasm.
	It is important for our bills, our food.
	And I think it's important for your conscience.
	So freedomainradio.com slash donate to help us out.
	And let's move on.
	Alright, well, Toby is up first today.
	Toby wrote in and said, Until recently, I had always had massive anxiety when talking to new people.
	This show helped me work on that, so now I hardly get anxious at all.
	However, I still do get anxious to the point of a kind of paralysis when trying to compliment people and when trying to ask a girl to be more than just friends.
	Why do I find it impossible to ask a woman out?
	Impossible.
	That's a...
	That's a big word, but I understand where you're coming from, Toby.
	Do you want to talk a little bit more about that?
	Yeah, okay.
	Hi, Stefan, first of all.
	I'm quite nervous.
	I just want to point out, to start with...
	No, no, this show helped you deal with all of that, so you don't have that anymore.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Yeah, that's the irony.
	Definitely.
	Now, yeah, all my life I kind of, I very much struggled to start a conversation with anybody.
	It would be kind of as crippling as going to the store and trying to like...
	Talking to the person behind the tail, I kind of mutter, like, can I have this?
	And then kind of an awkward situation would arise in my head, which wasn't really awkward at all.
	It's just buying something.
	Yeah, so the show kind of helped me work out a bit where that's coming from.
	I'm in university and I went to the counseling that they offer and the sessions I went to there helped me overcome the kind of just a day-to-day conversation sort of thing.
	Just starting there feeling more confident in myself with them.
	I just want to say too, Toby, I know how hard that stuff is because social anxiety was a huge problem for me as well.
	I'd get panicked in lines at the grocery store kind of thing.
	So I know how tough that is and I just want to say sorry that that was going on for you and I'm glad that things are better now.
	Thanks.
	That's good to hear because sometimes without somebody else to say it feels like you're just being a bit silly.
	Well, it's certainly incredibly isolating, you know?
	Yeah, definitely.
	And then talking to someone else about it when you're socially anxious to begin with seems like an impossibility.
	So therapy in that way, I mean, it was huge for me.
	Here's how to overcome your fear of heights.
	Jump off a cliff.
	Wait, isn't there a step I can take?
	We're going to help you overcome your fear of sharks with sharks!
	No!
	Exactly, that's what it kind of still feels like for this kind of complimenting and this talking to women.
	It feels like it's such a big step to take from nothing to doing it that I don't really know how to get there and I'm still not really sure what exactly is why I'm finding it so hard compared to other people.
	I also want to mention that I think a lot of people that I know might have, maybe to a less extent, but a similar sort of experience, but their solution is to just drink lots and lots of alcohol.
	Yeah, a lot of people don't understand that about the sort of laddish or loutish behavior that goes on in England.
	The alcoholism, I've always assumed, has a lot to do with social anxiety.
	You've got a whole lot of people on a very tiny island And the fear of causing offense is, you know, most, you know, give people, British people a checklist.
	Would you rather A, be struck by a giant meteorite or B, cause offense to someone in a social situation?
	And not a lot of pens would end up on the B. Most people would actually just, even the contemplation of it, they just stab themselves in the air with the pencil.
	But it is a very rigid society.
	And of course, a lot of that comes from the fact that there's still aristocracy at the center of society, which creates this whole obsequious court climbing social ugliness that goes on and a lot of politics in British socializing.
	So, yeah, I mean, if you're going to have social anxiety...
	There's countries where you probably want to be to get over it, like Hawaii or Jamaica, I think, has a lot of natural herbs that can help medicinally with that kind of issue.
	But England, where basically your only choice is don't go anywhere or...
	Go places, drunk, if you have that kind of issue, right?
	Yeah, that's nail in the coffin.
	That's not the right term.
	But yeah, that's definitely the situation.
	Hit the nail on the head in the coffin.
	Nail on the head, that's the one I'm looking for.
	I mean, especially in university, every single social event almost requires you to drink a little.
	And that's tough, too, because if, like, I think I've gotten drunk maybe three times in my life, and not since I, I don't know, a couple of times in my, I was sort of 17, and twice, I think, I think when I was 17 and then once at a party, an after cast party for a play I was in when I was maybe 21.
	And since then, and the problem of course is that if you don't drink and other people are drinking, well, the idiocy of the entire exercise is pretty open to you, right?
	Pretty revenge. - Yeah, exactly. - You have to drink to Yeah, that's definitely it.
	Yeah.
	That's especially true with girls and things as well.
	Some of the girls, if you were drunk, then yeah, they'd look amazing.
	But if you're not drunk, they're just kind of I mean, they look almost childish because they're drinking so much.
	They just slurring the words.
	Woo!
	Exactly.
	I have to have a low cap top so the boy has something to throw up into that won't drip into my shoes.
	Yeah, that is rough.
	In England, for those who don't know, especially around sports, there is just a big drinking culture.
	In a lot of places, drinking cultures are...
	You know, they're kind of not socially acceptable in a lot of ways.
	And so it's there, but it's like, oh, yeah, you know, I got so drunk last night.
	It was a real mistake.
	And so people may go and do it again, but they're not bragging about it.
	And they're not like, you have to drink.
	What are you not drinking for?
	You know, they're kind of like, well, I guess I had a bit too much or whatever.
	But in England, in certain social circles, I mean, it's aggressively like, why wouldn't you drink?
	Don't you have a penis?
	I mean, like, it's...
	It's not like, well, we may be doing the wrong thing here, but I guess I'm just an addict.
	It's like, you must drink.
	Like, what on earth else could you be doing with your time?
	Yeah, that's really interesting to hear because those are the only social circles that I've been in.
	So, literally, my entire experience of kind of socializing is that kind of an idea.
	It seems I say, oh, I don't really drink or I don't drink.
	Or let's get together without alcohol.
	What?
	Yeah, exactly.
	You want an orgy?
	No, no.
	I just said, let's get together without alcohol.
	Oh, I don't think we could handle that without alcohol.
	What, we're supposed to cut our fingers off with pliers?
	No, no.
	I just said, let's get together without alcohol.
	And it's like, I don't think that we can't get to the space station.
	No, no, no.
	It's just incomprehensible to people.
	Why would you get together without alcohol?
	And the reality is that alcohol is a great...
	I mean, I shouldn't say great.
	It's a widespread method of conquering social anxiety.
	In other words, if I erase the need to be interesting by getting everyone drunk, then I don't...
	And then, of course, what happens is then the more people use that crutch, you know, the less strong their legs are.
	So the more people engage in that kind of binge drinking and social drinking, the less able they are to have conversations with people that are interesting and rich.
	Yeah, that's one of the big reasons why I try and avoid it.
	Yeah, you're not alone, Toby.
	You're not alone, you're just obvious, right?
	Yeah.
	Am I guessing that, do you know if you're in your family of origin, was there any challenge around comfortable social mixing?
	Look, we all have it sometimes.
	I mean, and I won't get into me, but I just remember the first couple of times I was in a professional environment, you know, like my boss.
	He says, oh, let's do the cocktail party for investors or whatever, right?
	And it's like, okay.
	Like, I didn't know.
	It was all new.
	It was all new.
	And there are of course times when everybody feels awkward socially and You know, you walk into, I guess I don't want to give you palpitations, but you walk into a gathering of people who are all intent in conversations with each other, and your hope is that you stand near someone and hope that you find something of interest to hear that maybe you can comment on, or hope that some kind, good Samaritan opens up the social hoop and lets you into the inner circle and all that.
	But yeah, we all face those from time to time, but...
	So was there anything in your family life, in your childhood, you think, that may have inhibited comfortable and relaxed social interactions?
	Yes.
	I mean, I've had a look at this a bit before for kind of the general anxiety that I've kind of conquered a bit.
	It was a very win-lose sort of situation in my family.
	There was no spanking, no hitting, but lots of kind of guilt-tripping and And my mother could get very angry as well if we didn't do what she said, especially later on, not so much when I was younger.
	But I should mention that my parents have separated for the last four years.
	And as it came towards that, they were both increasingly short-tempered.
	And it would kind of be I was very argumentative as well.
	I mean, it's one of the reasons I love the show.
	I love kind of exploring the topics unsaid, which was quite a dangerous thing, really, to do with my family.
	Not because they'd attack me, but they'd definitely attack my ideas.
	It was not a very accepting sort of atmosphere.
	Well, and I also think, I'm sorry to interrupt, but it just struck me and I wanted to share with Toby that You said that your mother was guilt-tripped, right?
	That was her.
	It's a travel agency of one and we only go to one place.
	It's a guilt trip.
	And it struck me that social anxiety seems to me potentially related to growing up around people who had a habit of feeling ashamed of you.
	Because guilt trip has a lot to do with I'm shaming you.
	I know shame and guilt aren't identical or whatever, but In order to make someone feel guilty, you have to make them feel that they have violated a moral standard that they agree with.
	And they had a choice in doing so, and they knew better, and all that kind of stuff.
	And if you grew up around people who are ashamed of you, it's hard to think that you have something to offer strangers that even your family didn't value that much.
	Yeah, I think I follow that.
	So then...
	Yeah, okay.
	Sorry.
	And of course, divorce is a failure of social skills in many ways as well.
	Negotiation and empathy and taking the long view and all of that.
	Yeah, well this is what I've...
	The one thing that my parents are quite good at is they will now talk to me about these sort of things.
	Although my mum will get very upset sometimes, which is again trying to deter from the topic.
	I never really learned the social skills of win-win because they don't really know the social skills of win-win.
	Yeah, and guild trips and shaming are definitely win-lose, right?
	I'm sorry, I was just saying social shaming and guilt-lifting and all that, that's win-lose, right?
	Yeah, and I think, I mean, one of the reasons I was so scared of talking to new people, I think, is that I thought I just wanted to be moral and good, but Because I only knew these win-lose situations, I felt that if I talked to them, I'd create a win-lose situation.
	So I'd be wasting their time.
	Wasting just for your parents' time?
	So that would be lose for them.
	Sorry, what was that?
	Sorry, you said waste their time.
	Did you mean your parents' time or someone else?
	Just kind of everybody in general.
	But I think...
	That was learned from...
	Oh, no.
	Okay, I think I understand what you're saying.
	Let me give you a little ramble and see if it hits the spot.
	Yeah, let me give you a tiny ramble and see if it hits the spot.
	So, we have a habit, those of us from challenging childhoods, we have a habit of assuming that if there's something wrong, it's us that's wrong.
	And that is, it's a good place to look.
	You know, it's a good place to look first.
	Like if you have a repetitive problem in your life, childhood is a good place to look first.
	Maybe it's probably not the only place to look, but it's a good place to look first.
	Now, with something like social anxiety, it has often struck me that I can make people quite uncomfortable.
	I don't make you uncomfortable.
	Is that fair to say, Toby?
	Yeah, not at all.
	The opposite, in fact.
	Oh, you're relaxing.
	Okay, good.
	Take off your pants.
	So, not that relaxed.
	Okay, well, another few minutes.
	Hot dog on the web.
	Fog it up, baby.
	But it may not be entirely a personal deficiency problem.
	On your part that it's tough to connect with people socially.
	For instance, if those around you are relentlessly into the avoidance of anything meaningful or deep or resonant or important or philosophical or moral or anything of substance, then if you are naturally drawn towards things of substance, you know, like we have a short amount of time in this world, let's not spend our whole time The short time that we have.
	Let's not spend our whole short time in this world talking about things that don't matter.
	And that's one of the things that I remember a lot growing up, was my mother, for all her faults, she did have a pretty fascinating circle of friends when I was younger.
	A lot of them were like Germans who seemed to, I mean, I think even more so than Australians.
	Australians just travel the world forever because I guess it's so expensive to get off the rock that they travel forever, you know?
	And Germans, after the Second World War, Traveled a lot, too.
	And she would have these German hippies come through.
	And they were pretty freaky.
	And they all seemed to be looking like, you know, John Lennon plus Jesus equals a love child.
	And, you know, they didn't always smell exactly like the air around them.
	But in their own weird way, they did talk about some pretty deep issues.
	What is truth, man?
	What even is reality?
	Now, a lot of the answers that they gave were, you know, bubblegum nonsense, you know, like, what if the solar system is just an atom inside another solar system?
	Like, yeah, what if?
	But, you know, people, children are still being hit in the world.
	But anyway, I mean, so, but they did, I do remember sitting there, this is back in the day when the adults were talking, you just basically didn't talk.
	You absorbed, you listened, which I think is underappreciated these days.
	Because, hey, children learn adult conversations by watching adults have conversations.
	And if the only thing that adults are doing is talking to kids...
	Then they don't see that.
	But they did actually talk about some stuff that was interesting questions.
	Again, I thought their answers were...
	A post-Platonic fart in an Aristotelian thunderstorm.
	But, I don't know what that means, but it's just...
	Not meaningful, not grounded.
	It was just, what if?
	You know, like, what if?
	What if you were I and I and the walrus and cuckoo-cuckoo?
	A lot of it was pretty nonsensical, but they were interesting questions.
	Because I would go away saying, well, that's an interesting question.
	I don't think they have a handle on the answer, but it was certainly some interesting questions.
	And...
	Compared to the British people that I spent time with, which were resolutely...
	I remember reading this years ago, a woman who nicknamed her mother Bit of Cheese, Bit of Ham.
	That was her elderly mother.
	Because, you know, she would call her mom up and her mom would want to tell her, you know, what she'd had for breakfast.
	And then...
	What she had done a little bit with her morning, you know, tidied a little dusting and then what she'd had for lunch was bread with a bit of cheese, a bit of ham.
	So a bit of cheese, a bit of ham.
	That was the level at which this woman was conversing with her mother and anytime she tried to draw her into anything slightly more meaningful, it was impossible.
	It was like trying to take some giant helium balloon and push it underwater with your chest hair.
	I mean it just wasn't happening and I remember My friend's parents were always fascinating to me.
	I had a friend whose mom, once in the entire decades that I knew her, opened up about anything.
	You know, just talked a little bit about her history.
	And his grandmother...
	Who was, I mean, ancient even by my standards now.
	His grandmother used to be, I only found this out once, like there's this weird eclipse, except the light comes through once in a while.
	It's unbelievable.
	She once, because I was always sniffing around and digging and poking and looking for any kind of connection with people when I was a kid.
	And once the grandmother told me that she used to sing for the troops in the war, in the Second World War.
	And she was singing some Vera Lynn songs to soldiers who were in a burn ward.
	And most of them had been so horribly burned that they could not possibly clap.
	And the only way they could show their appreciation was by hissing through their teeth.
	And she said she felt like a snake charmer because she was singing to all this hissing.
	And it's like, it opens up, you get a glimpse at someone's personhood, their history, there's something that means something to them.
	And then, a little bit of ham, a little bit of cheese comes in and eclipses this moment.
	And I remember thinking, by God, if I could only have a show where I could do this more than once.
	So the reason I'm sort of telling you this is that your social anxiety may be other people's depth panic, if that makes any sense.
	Right.
	That story's interesting because it reminds me a lot of my granddad.
	Every time we would visit him, he would...
	It'd be very much, you know, just kind of the standard how is everyone?
	Check if everyone's okay.
	But one time we visited and he showed us his...
	His badge from the war he fought in World War II and told us about how he landed in Norway.
	And you did just get this sense of a whole hidden history that I just had no clue about.
	And wouldn't you like to know more?
	Yeah, exactly.
	So many people, they die and they fall into the ground and all of their stories and all of their histories and all of their details just pour into them.
	You know, it's like throwing...
	A kite with a beautiful tail that goes on forever down an endless well.
	The kite slithers in, the body falls into the ground, and all of the ribbons and all of the stories go pouring in.
	My friend's mother, who told me about her first marriage and how difficult it was and all that, died of an aneurysm and all gone.
	All of the facts, all of the knowledge, all of the stories, all of the history, all of the patterns that could release us from this wheel of time, from this wheel of cycles of history.
	All of the knowledge that could have broken the wheel and turned it into some sort of intergenerational jetpack to a different future.
	All gone.
	All gone.
	And I think that's just so tragic.
	And did it happen often with your grandfather?
	Was it just one time?
	It was only this one time.
	One time!
	And it's like, how?
	What do we have to do as a species for these planets to make these planets align more often?
	Only connect, as E.M. Forster said.
	Only connect!
	And we dissolve mortality through connection.
	Anyway, so if you're interested in a show like this, you know, you're interested in deep topics.
	And I can already hear, oh, everyone, everyone around the planet.
	And let me give you the zombie chant.
	Let me get into character here.
	I have to get smellier.
	Hang on.
	I have an eyeball dropped down my cheek.
	You can't be deep all the time.
	Yes, that is true.
	You also can't exercise all the time, but the alternative to that is not spending your entire life on the couch.
	Anyway.
	You can't eat all the time.
	Oh, so you're never going to eat again?
	I'm a zombie.
	We only drink brain fluid, I don't know, and vote.
	So it could be, I'm sorry, I don't mean to eclipse, but it could be this depth panic.
	Being surrounded by depth panic, people will go into their histories like a one-time pearl diver.
	Go down, get the pearl, come up just before you run out of oxygen, never go back in the ocean again.
	You remember these things, don't you, from people that you've known where you get this open, close, right?
	Yeah, and it's really...
	The interesting thing about that is, especially with younger people, I find that when you eventually sometimes do get the opening, it all comes out.
	And you get this massive flood of everything, like...
	Oh, the blarp!
	Yeah, the blarp!
	Blarp!
	Blarp!
	Wait, I ate something four years ago!
	Blargh!
	Hold still!
	Blargh!
	Actually, that also works if they've been drinking a lot, but anyway.
	Yeah, that gets quite difficult for me as well, because then I'm just like, I have no idea what to do in this situation.
	I mean, I can ask questions.
	I can always ask questions, but...
	No, but that's not being visible, right?
	The Blarp is an erasure of the other.
	Right.
	Because, I mean, I think, I mean, tell me what you think, but I think that we're sort of bouncing back ideas here.
	We're both present in the conversation, right?
	Right.
	Yeah, definitely.
	This is more present than I've felt in a lot of conversations.
	Yeah, I mean, we're both modifying our thoughts and sharing, you know, bouncing back.
	The Blarp is, you know, don't blink, I'm talking.
	Yeah, definitely.
	And the people who Blarp are always incredibly able to see the inner yawn, which some people can occasionally see with me.
	The odd interview.
	But anyway, you know when you just yawn inside your mouth, you become a bullfrog.
	The lower comes out and you yawn inwards.
	Gaping chasm inside only.
	But so, I mean, obviously, I mean, if you have the social anxiety, I get that.
	But do you think that if you were able to, if you had no interest in deeper topics, would that be easier for you?
	Like, if you had the constant paddle of drivel that seems to be, that people breathe out, it seems more than CO2, you know?
	I used to call it, how about them Jays?
	Because Jays is, like, Blue Jays is a sports team.
	Right.
	In...
	In Toronto, and the Toronto Maple Leafs were, well, they're the hockey team.
	And so, yeah, they last won the standing cup, I think it was 1966.
	Mike, can you just check that?
	I think that was the case.
	I don't think they've won it ever since, because Toronto is still standing, and it wouldn't be if they've won ever since.
	And, you know, when I first got into business, I had to learn some things.
	I had to pretend that I knew anything about sort of professional sports.
	And you learn these couple of things like, oh, yeah, I remember this guy came in and he realized that he could still sell tickets even if they didn't win.
	So he stopped buying as many great players.
	And you say that in a Toronto business community, and it's like uncorking the speaking in tongues at certain religious ceremonies because people just start...
	Talking about it.
	And so I just had to learn like five or six things like so-and-so has done such and such a thing in sports that is...
	And people are like...
	They're on it like piranha on a fat cow.
	And yeah, because, you know, the only other alternative is to try to get them to know them as people.
	A lot of people don't really like that.
	1967.
	Sorry, 1967.
	Yeah, I know.
	I definitely relate to that.
	I wish I was interested in sports or television shows or even talking about the lectures we go to.
	That's what most of my conversations have been.
	Oh, what was that lecture like?
	Oh, what was that lecture like?
	Oh, did you enjoy that?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Not even the topic, like the substance of it.
	Yeah, there's just nothing.
	We're just both saying things we already know just for the sake of opening our mouths, really.
	And those conversations, don't you find that those conversations...
	There's almost a built-in lull that is terrifying.
	I think there's a seven-minute lull.
	Every seven minutes in conversations, there's a bit of a lull.
	But it sort of feels like you're both there trying to squeeze out toothpaste from an empty tube, and sooner or later, you just give up.
	You give up, and then there's this awkward silence, and you're both desperately trying to think of something to say, but nothing is happening, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that happens every time.
	And that's thermonuclear ground zero for social anxiety, right?
	We're both still here.
	We're not talking and we don't even know what to say.
	Yeah, definitely.
	It's almost like the initial anxiety, which is the strongest, is kind of in anticipation of that moment.
	It's gone through this pattern so many times before that even beginning a conversation will lead to that place.
	So then that place is so frightening that the whole system shuts down, if that makes any sense.
	Because that place reveals the totalitarianism of the everyday, the censorship.
	of the everyday, right?
	I mean, I don't think that we're having much trouble chatting at the moment, are we?
	No, no, definitely not.
	I'm struggling to find words, but that's just the...
	But no, I'm definitely finding this a lot easier.
	I can actually say what I'm thinking, which is...
	Yeah, I mean, we're batting ideas back and forth and sharing experiences because we're not confined.
	You know, if you want to talk about social anxiety, Right.
	Right.
	And so, whereas with most other people, it's like, "I don't know if I can say this, don't know if I can say that." And that grinds its way down to exhaustion, right?
	Yeah.
	And yeah, exactly.
	It's just every social situation.
	I actually find that that's really interesting because I do find after I've been in lots of social situations, I do just kind of need to go and recuperate almost.
	It's mentally exhausting, yeah.
	I had some friends from America over.
	2013, I had some friends from America over.
	And I was like, I want to do a video on George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.
	And they were like, I mean, you can see, I mean, if I had had enough coal, I could have put it up their asses and made diamonds.
	What do you guys think of that situation?
	I'm afraid you're going to have to talk to my diversity lawyer who unfortunately is unavailable at the moment, the politically correct police and unable to provide a translation that will offend no one except people in the future who value clarity!
	So that is, you know, I mean, there's lots of people who have those kinds of topics, you know, talk about race in America, sometimes talk about class or anything in England.
	In Canada, it can be religion, although in America it can be religion as well.
	In France, it's any social limits whatsoever.
	In Germany, it's Any not-social limits whatsoever.
	In Greece, it's financial mathematics and numeric literacy that is the big problem.
	But anyway, I should go on and on with these clichés.
	But there is this censorship in the everyday.
	That people are constantly sending out these radar pings.
	Can I talk about this?
	Can I talk about this?
	And most people have just given up, and they just retreat to the safety of the most banal Hallmark card sentiments that you could possibly think of.
	Like, I got my teeth cleaned last week, and the...
	I got into a very engaged conversation with the dental hygienist about ISIS and the Middle East.
	She knows what I do and she's like, what do you think?
	We got very animated and it was a great conversation.
	But there's so much fear.
	Yeah, I've actually experienced that ostracism recently, that exact thing where I told somebody about, I started explaining anarchism to them and basically the next week they kind of said, oh, I don't really think we're the same sort of person.
	So, you know, I'm going to, they basically told me to go away, but in British ways, so dotted around the subject.
	Right, right.
	Yeah, as soon as I kind of brought up an idea that wasn't, oh, look at how, I mean, especially in university, look how good the government is giving all this free money for us so that we can go study and become clever people and help.
	And they help the power.
	As soon as I said, well, do they?
	Like, I try not to even be that forceful with it.
	Because that's the other thing I find.
	A lot of people, when you do bring up these deep topics, Either they run away, like you said, or out of the same fear, they attack, you know, the fight or flight kind of mechanism.
	So rather than fleeing, some people actually go in fight mode.
	And then that's even worse in a way, especially for me, because then I'm like, oh, I'm in a battle now, which is what my parents would kind of do when I brought up conversations over the dinner table.
	Like it would often be, you need to stop talking now, basically.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And so I think that there's a depth anxiety that is experienced as internalized social anxiety by people who are interested in talking about something other than time-wasting trivia.
	And that is a very tough thing.
	If you can talk about deep things, the world fundamentally changes.
	I was just thinking about it.
	We passed 100 million downloads a while back.
	I don't know what we're...
	And now...
	I'm not trying to provoke your social media.
	Yeah, I've already thought about that.
	Don't fuck up, Toby!
	You've got to think carefully about everything you say.
	It's recorded forever.
	But that's enough to move the needle of culture a little bit.
	That is enough to move the needle of culture just a tiny bit.
	And fundamentally, you know, this is the thing that people don't get about this show.
	I have no...
	I don't really care whether people agree with me or not.
	I don't.
	I don't care whether people agree with me.
	I do care that they think about these issues.
	Have I got them all right?
	Good God, no.
	Of course not, right?
	But apparently, because somebody emailed me, I keep talking about, you know, mammals that give birth to...
	There is some mammal somewhere, some kind of platypus that gives birth to eggs, so...
	I'm not even right about mammals.
	But it doesn't matter what you think.
	It matters how you think, and it matters what you think about.
	And I think that this show, which I think is pretty unique, that this conversation has moved obviously a tiny bit, but it's moved the needle of cultural and social discourse just a tiny bit.
	And that is a challenge Whenever anything foundational changes in the language that is the physics we call culture, it is disorienting and alarming to people, which is why everyone avoids it so much.
	I mean, the power structures in the world are entirely built on language.
	And if language begins to be examined more deeply, the power that language is designed to conceal becomes visible.
	The force that language is designed to conceal becomes visible and people get uncomfortable.
	So if you are somebody who's interested in conversations of depth and import, then there will be, it will cause a lot of people a lot of anxiety in the world around you.
	Yeah.
	I mean, this show definitely has moved.
	I can see that.
	I mean, it's changed how I think completely.
	I used to have...
	Most of my conversations with my friends were just what we called banter, but it's just insulting each other.
	That's a terrible British trait, this constant tear down, which is of course exactly what you'd expect from a culture that still has its roots in serfdom, but anyway.
	Exactly, and then this show just kind of, because hearing how you speak is just so different to what I was doing.
	I was like, what?
	It's almost a different language.
	The problem is that kind of made it obvious when other people were doing it as well.
	So rather than...
	It kind of shifted.
	Rather than the anxiety coming from kind of fearing the win-lose, it also became a bit of, well, now I'm learning this new language and I'm sort of trying to forget the old one, but everyone speaks the old language.
	Right.
	I mean, it helped me personally, but it also isolated me even further in a way.
	Yeah, a friend of mine sent me a cartoon, one of these kind of chilling existential cartoons.
	And it was, I can't remember the title, it was something like The Mind of an Anxious Person or something like that.
	And it showed the person playing video games.
	Right.
	And you're playing while you're playing video games.
	Have you seen it?
	No, I just...
	I play a lot of video games.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, that also helps with social anxiety because the choices are all one, two, or three, or you shoot people.
	Yeah, definitely.
	But I have to worry.
	No awkward pauses in the game.
	Just hit the escape key.
	But, yeah, so it said...
	Your brain while you're playing video games.
	You're fine.
	Your brain while you're watching TV. You're fine.
	Your brain while you're on Facebook.
	You're fine.
	Your brain at three o'clock in the morning.
	You're dying!
	Yeah.
	And I think that so much of what we call social interaction seems to me to be a distraction from dying.
	And then death comes along and all the words you could have said.
	You know, everyone says, oh, be sure to tell the people you love them that you love them.
	I think that's great advice.
	It's called being honest.
	I think that's wonderful.
	Nobody ever says, be sure to tell the people you hate that you hate them.
	Don't be honest that way.
	But tell the people you love that you love them.
	I think that's good advice.
	Why not?
	Sure.
	That's valid.
	That's right.
	But nobody ever says...
	On their deathbed, people regret having had so few meaningful conversations.
	You don't hear a lot of that stuff.
	Or tell the people what you think of God, what you think of law, what you think of reality, what you think of virtue.
	Nobody ever says that.
	It's all like, I love you.
	Which is fine, but it's not deep in particular.
	It's a nice sentiment to hear, and I'm not saying love is unimportant, blah, blah, blah.
	But it's not, you know, the question is if...
	If you're not talking about anything else, if you're not talking about anything deep or meaningful or you don't admire the person's moral courage or whatever, then what do you even mean to say, I love you?
	You're not talking about anything deep.
	It's kind of putting the cart before the horse.
	Anyway, I have deep conversations and then the love will, the expressions of love will, anyway.
	Right, yeah.
	Let's get to the ladies for you.
	Yeah, yeah.
	The interesting bit.
	Yeah.
	I don't know if it's just lack of experience in this area or if it's something more deeper from parents or something, but I use the word impossible because that's how it feels.
	Say I've managed to actually start a conversation with a girl that I find attractive, which is for me quite a big step anyway.
	And we're just talking about, you know, some small talk, maybe a bit deeper things as well.
	Not too deep, because...
	England.
	And what I really want to do is just say...
	Like a small compliment, even something as simple as just, you know, you look very nice, or just something, or I want to ask her to meet again, like for coffee or, you know, a date situation, basically.
	And the words just won't come out of my mouth.
	Right.
	Like, I physically can't say it.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I... Yeah, I don't...
	It's not that I feel nervous in that situation.
	It's just the words I want to say I can't and the words that will do is what I just end up saying, which tends to kind of kill the conversation because it's not very genuine.
	The words will do?
	No, that's badly phrased.
	The words...
	Just the standard kind of small talk words will come out instead just to keep the conversation.
	Oh, yeah, like...
	I caught my bus on time this morning, which is good, because it was raining.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	Well, okay.
	Are you white?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	See, Toby, this is what you don't understand, because I'm sure nobody's ever told this to you.
	You are a white male, so you are incredibly privileged.
	You have patriarchal power coming out the little vagina at the end of your penis.
	And I just think it's important for you to remember that.
	Just kidding.
	I didn't need help at all, but it's just kind of funny because, you know, I mean, people always tell us about patriarcal power and it's like, I'm sorry?
	I'm just saying there's four feminist societies in my university.
	Yeah, so what you don't understand is you can actually order the elements to command you using your penis.
	You know, you can point your penis at rose bushes and make them cough up coconuts.
	I mean, people, you have this astounding penis power.
	It is a rocket sled of near infinite cosmological possibilities.
	You can reverse time by castanetting your balls together like those Newton machines.
	You can just do the most amazing and astonishing things.
	You can send your penis out to pick up a lager for yourself and bring it back with a packet of chips.
	Crisps!
	Sorry, crisps.
	So you can do all of these wonderful and amazing things because white penis.
	And so, you know, it's important to remember that.
	Just order people because you have patriarchy.
	Yeah, that'll work.
	But I order you with a scepter of my pale penis to kneel!
	Yeah, good luck.
	So, and this, again, women, a lot of women, I think they kind of get this, which is why they don't ask men out in general, but it's really terrifying.
	And the more you're interested in the woman, the more terrifying it is, right?
	Yeah, definitely.
	I mean, it's kind of like, I don't know if that's the right word, but yeah, you kind of get the two situations.
	Either it's a very attractive girl to me, in which case it's terrifying, or it's a not-so-attractive girl, in which case my brain just kind of goes, well, just find someone more attractive.
	I don't just mean good-looking, I mean, you know, the other traits as well.
	Yeah, like somebody you'd like to talk to.
	Yeah.
	And also, I mean, if...
	And I don't want to go on a monologue, but if it's more anxiety, because, you know, like, why would you want it?
	Right?
	So then if it's like, I could ask you out, and then we could have a whole evening of this.
	Right?
	So, I don't know.
	That's kind of masochistic, right?
	If...
	If it's that stressful to ask her out, how stressful is it going to be to pick her up and see if she has a good time and maybe even ask her out again or maybe even kiss at the end of the night or whatever, right?
	Yeah, and the one girlfriend that I have had, it wasn't anything like that at all.
	It was basically she just said, do you want to make out?
	I think were her exact words.
	It was very kind of open and then just things kind of went from there.
	And she very much led to the relationship.
	I didn't really have to do anything in that.
	So I didn't...
	Yeah.
	So, basically, you're just floating there, somewhere down the lazy river, right?
	You just, like, carried on the little canoe boat of Vagina, you go down the river and see where it leads, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	And it actually made me a lot more of a passive person than I was in that relationship, which lasted quite a long time.
	And I kind of became more and more withdrawn just because I could hear with someone like finding, you know, kind of doing it all for me.
	So I just kind of came to rely on her.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Well, it is awkward in some ways when you are interested in a woman.
	Because you're basically thinking about screwing.
	But at the same time, you're pretending to be interested in her birds.
	Or a stamp collection, or whatever, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, there was an old joke, and I don't even know where it came from, and it's not even funny, but there was an old joke about, you know, like, hey, you want to come up and see my etchings?
	You know, which is basically, you want to come up for a coffee?
	Would you like to come in for a drink?
	You know, and it's all like, let's have sex in a place where people find it harder to film us.
	And that, the euphemisms around sexuality, right?
	Like, would you like to go out for dinner...
	Some time is a euphemism for eggs, right?
	For, hey, want to continue the human species in our own grindy, messy way?
	Yeah.
	It is kind of awkward because it's like going to a car dealership and making small talk and pretending that you're not interested in the cars.
	It's just kind of weird.
	And especially in that moment where, you know, because, yeah, date, you know, it could still be, you know, maybe one person doesn't think.
	But at some point, you make that move, right?
	Yeah.
	Right?
	You try to hold her hand or you try to kiss her or something like that, right?
	That transition has always seemed to me kind of like running up a seesaw until the fulcrum tips.
	Yeah.
	Because at that moment, that's like the do or die.
	That's the egg-no-egg situation, right?
	Yeah, and it literally does feel like do or die.
	I'm sorry?
	It is do or die, kind of.
	It does feel like do or die.
	Yeah, for sure.
	And also, this could be because we're not...
	Like, for a man to want to sleep with a woman, throughout a good portion of human history, that meant...
	Until she's dead.
	Wait, that sounds kind of sinister.
	No, but it would be a lifelong commitment, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, you wouldn't usually even get to kiss a girl until you had committed to her.
	Maybe on the cheek or maybe once on the lips, but you wouldn't really be able to even kiss a girl unless you were willing to commit to have and raise and hold and honor and be with her while she dies of tuberculosis at the age of 59 or something.
	And so the stakes that...
	Men of depth feel with regards to asking out women is something, I think, related to the fact that we kind of get that it's a big deal, right?
	Yeah, definitely.
	I mean, have you ever wanted to ask a girl out and then never call her again?
	Has that been a big driver for you?
	No, I think I'm looking for...
	I don't know.
	It's hard to know without having tried, really.
	But if you haven't tried, like if you haven't sort of looked at a woman with that cold reptilian Clinton eye and said, how can I get her to absorb my bodily fluids and then escape like the wind at dawn?
	And if that's not been your modus operandi, and that certainly wasn't mine...
	Yeah, I've never really had that.
	It's never been the kind of escape thing.
	Yeah, you don't want to use a woman like a flashlight and toss her aside, right?
	I mean, you want to get to know her, you want to, you know, have a relationship and so on.
	It's not just about, you know, squat and split, right?
	Yeah.
	And so that means that you're looking for a...
	Relationship.
	And all of that stuff is why it's probably higher stakes for you than it is for a lot of other people.
	Right.
	Because they're not looking for a relationship.
	They're just looking for a fling.
	You can't be looking for a relationship if all you have to offer is small talk.
	I mean, that's like going into a car dealership with spare change in your pocket expecting to walk out with a car.
	I mean, I'm not saying people like that don't have relationships.
	I mean, they do.
	They just...
	I don't know what they call it, but they are in the same room making mouth noises at each other.
	And I don't know, eventually they get bored and divorced.
	Or frustrated.
	Or mortality raises its ugly head and they realize that every time they utter another platitude of emptiness, they are kissing death behind having him open up.
	So...
	Yeah, you could be just really interested in some depth.
	You also have, of course, concerns, I would assume, because your parents had a relationship, had a kid, or more than one, and then got divorced, right?
	Yeah, I was just thinking that maybe...
	I mean, when I was in a relationship as well, I had those fears constantly, like, am I just going to relive my past?
	Right.
	And it's definitely...
	Because my mum and dad were in a 26-year marriage.
	I mean, according to them, it gradually fell apart.
	But for me, my experience of it was one day we would sit in the living room and then they told me that they were separating.
	And it just came out of nowhere.
	Wait, so did they have what you would call a good relationship when you were younger?
	It was functional, so I wouldn't say good.
	I have yet to see a wedding anniversary card with the word functional.
	I really appreciate your functionality and your massive non-farting in bed.
	I mean, that's a pretty dry way to describe Yeah, and I think it's the apt term which is the sad thing.
	Dry, functional.
	Intimacy was really not common at all.
	Especially in front of the children.
	I mean, if there was kind of more intimate things, I didn't see them.
	Well, and did your parents take delight in each other's company?
	I mean, not anymore, of course.
	I'm just trying to distinguish more recent memories of them from older memories of them.
	But...
	I think they once did.
	I think they once...
	I mean, they met each other in music college.
	And that kind of shared passion is...
	I think they definitely...
	Delighted in each other when in that area.
	But when it came to raising children and doing the boring stuff of life, like bills and all that, then I mean, they had very different strategies to cope with it.
	And those strategies were kind of opposites in a way.
	My dad would avoid, procrastinate, and my mum would tackle head-on and never stop.
	I mean, to this day, she's constantly working.
	I would even describe how she looked after us kind of as working in a way.
	It was a list of things that needed to be done that then got ticked off that day.
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah, a lot of people, divorces in the boomer generation are way up.
	I can't remember the number, but they've increased by something like 50% of the past years.
	15 years or so.
	Yeah.
	And it's brutal.
	I mean, God, I can't imagine.
	Now that I'm old, now that my looks are gone, I'm gonna get back out there.
	Well, I don't know.
	I think that...
	And this fallout of love, slowly things drifted apart.
	That's pretty terrifying, right?
	Yeah, it's just the idea of it.
	I don't...
	It's like waking up every morning and your arm is one millimeter further detached from your body.
	Yeah.
	My arm and I, we just drifted apart, he said, with a disarming smile.
	And what does that mean?
	I mean, the moment that your arm is a millimeter away from your body, don't you...
	Want to go get it reattached?
	Have you noticed that?
	We just drifted apart.
	Then my arm went off and hitchhiked its way to Pasadena where it became a rodeo clown.
	It's especially prominent for me because I'm atheist now, but I was raised a Christian and I was a chorister.
	And I would sing at lots of weddings.
	And I would hear the vows over and over again until death do us part.
	And then there's all these people breaking their vows.
	And if you don't know why, then the fear of repeating history when you don't know why is completely terrifying.
	Because then it's like, you want to step in the boxing ring with someone who's really good?
	I'm going to blindfold you first.
	It's like, no, I don't think I do.
	In fact, if I can't see, I don't want to play.
	And it is brutal, of course.
	Even if you date the wrong girl, if you get married to the wrong girl...
	It can be a complete disaster for your life.
	Yeah, when my first girlfriend asked me out, in the way that I said, do you want to make me cry out?
	It wasn't actually in person, it was over Facebook, I think, as it is nowadays.
	And it literally took me half an hour to get the courage to say, Yes, even though this was just a quite attractive girl asking me to make out with her.
	She asked you to suck face on Facebook.
	I hope it was a private message.
	One in two sexually active young people will get an STD by the age of 25.
	Less than half of adults, 18 to 44, have ever been tested for an STD other than HIV or AIDS. Now, this is American.
	I don't know the degree to which it fits.
	In England, it's probably not wildly disparate.
	16% of Americans between the ages of 14 and 49 are infected with genital herpes.
	48%...
	It doesn't matter.
	19 million new herpes infections every year.
	There's no cure for herpes.
	In 2012, women 15 to 19 years had the second highest rate of gonorrhea compared to any other age or sex group.
	Women 15 to 19 have over twice the rate for gonorrhea and over four times the rate of chlamydia compared to men in the same age group.
	And it is a, it's a, it's a challenge.
	It's a problem.
	It's something to be alert to and aware of.
	So knowing a woman's family history, knowing a little bit about her romantic history, you're sleeping with everyone that woman has ever slept with, biologically speaking.
	And it is a big challenge to figure out how to safely and reliably Find someone to love whose affections aren't going to seriously decrease your quality or quantity of lifespan.
	Yeah, and that's just talking about kind of the physical things like STDs and unwanted pregnancies and things.
	There's also the emotional repercussions of a failed relationship that I wasn't prepared for, which I've had to deal with over the last five months, which still kind of haunts me.
	Now, that's the British habit, right?
	Where every time you talk about something that's painful, you've got to give me a cover laugh, right?
	I'm not trying to make you anxious.
	I'm just pointing it out that I'm noticing it.
	Yeah, I've heard you point it out on the show before and I didn't even realize I was doing it.
	You said, I'm never going to do that.
	Exactly.
	Yeah, I just realized I'm laughing quite a lot.
	Yeah, I mean, some of it, of course, is perfectly fine and it's not bad or wrong.
	It's just that it's a rush to say this is important to me I'm going to give you counter signals to find out if you're going to notice and if you're interested.
	And I am.
	So what happened five months ago?
	Did she dump you?
	Did you dump her?
	I dumped her, but Slightly complicated situation.
	I'll just explain it as quickly as I can.
	She's a year under me.
	And she found out that she failed to get into the university that I'm into.
	So she'd have to go to one that was further away.
	Because it had already been long distance for my first year at university.
	So this was going to be another year of long distance.
	So that evening, she kind of phoned me up and said, I don't know if this will work.
	But we talked it through and it felt more secure after that.
	And then we spent kind of the weekend together.
	And I think this was my fault, but also she could be to blame.
	We didn't follow it up.
	We didn't mention it at all.
	We just kind of tried to go back to what it was before she'd said that.
	So then I kind of felt this increasing isolation from her.
	So about five days after that, I kind of said, you're not talking to me.
	You're not answering my texts.
	You're not answering my calls.
	And the whole summer had been very...
	She changed a lot since the end of school.
	She became a lot more of a kind of outgoing person than she used to be and it all felt really unfamiliar and I didn't like it so I kind of said yeah let's end it here which at first felt kind of relieving and then And then I suddenly realized, oh wait, why did I do that?
	And then I tried to get back in touch with her and she's just like, not having any of it.
	Wouldn't even meet her with me.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, there is, I mean, I'm very sorry to hear about all of that, but I mean, it's an obvious lesson that you don't need underscored from me, but avoidance brings avoidance, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I see that now.
	And the avoidance of rejection will often bring the reality of rejection, right?
	Yeah, that's a very concise way of saying what I think about it.
	I mean, I've thought a lot about that relationship.
	It's been very hard to kind of work out whether I was the bad guy or she was the bad guy.
	But it doesn't sound like either on if you was the bad guy, there were just some bad habits that coincided, right?
	I'm still struck by the fact that you said she became more outgoing after she asked you to make out on Facebook.
	To me, but you know, what do I know, right?
	So, yeah, so as far as dating goes, you know, my goal has always been to try to give people, in this realm, to give people the tools that I think are important in trying to find a quality mate, in trying to find someone who, look, you don't want to sleep around, you don't want to go through this dating and breaking up thing.
	I mean, you want to find, ideally, I mean, isn't this true for anybody who wants a stable and long-term relationship?
	You want to find the woman of your dreams and you want to stay with her.
	I'm not trying to get all kinds of Victorian.
	I've had the experience of both, and the woman of your dreams who you stay with, infinitely better.
	Infinitely better.
	And that's what you want, and that you have not been taught, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Just as I wasn't taught.
	I mean, the media doesn't tell you any of that.
	The media says, be pretty, have sex, hey, it's consequence-free!
	Prestidies!
	No heartbreak!
	No babies!
	Have fun!
	Right?
	Sex is a toy given to us by nature for no reason whatsoever other than for our own personal amusement and the spread of various bacteria around the world.
	And that What you've been taught from culture and from art is sort of the opposite of what sex and romance is for.
	Sex and romance is to create a pair bond so that you can raise children in the best possible environment.
	That's what your penis gets hard for.
	That's why you stammer.
	That's why we get sweaty palmed and our IQ goes down by approximately 12 million points when we're attracted to sometimes even just talking to a woman.
	And if you can find the woman of your dreams, then that is about as good as it's gonna get.
	You cannot ask for more than someone you're just overjoyed to wake up with and go to bed with every day, right?
	Yeah.
	That's what makes it so scary though, because when I initially did date my first girlfriend, because I wanted that so badly, I kind of pretended that I had that.
	You wanted that staying together forever?
	I wanted that experience of enjoying every moment with her and finding it just wonderful.
	And it really wasn't that.
	I didn't enjoy every moment with her and it wasn't that wonderful.
	She invited you to suck face on Facebook.
	Yeah, exactly.
	She wasn't talking to your brain there, my friend.
	No, and it wasn't.
	No, no, she wasn't.
	One penis with heartbeat!
	Please bring both.
	Yeah, which is why it's surprising it did last quite a while.
	Not unless you're needy.
	Or she is, right?
	It didn't start off with the highest standards.
	But look, I get the fear.
	I do.
	And this is why I tell people, go to therapy, learn about your family history, talk to your parents, ask them about their childhoods, drill your parents about what went wrong with their marriage.
	Right?
	They owe you that.
	You know, I mean, they owe you that.
	Because their marriage is the template for your marriage, and you don't want a marriage that ends up like their marriage.
	So ask them.
	And if they say, well, I'm not comfortable, it's like, hey, you gave me this template for 20, what was it, 26 years?
	You gave me this template for 26 years.
	You've got to tell me how it went wrong.
	Because if I don't know, most likely I'm just going to reproduce it, right?
	Yeah.
	So find these things out.
	I have used that argument with them.
	I mean, my dad's always open to help, but my mom does want to avoid these topics a lot of the time.
	The problem is I then kind of get...
	With my mum I get a fog, and the fog can either come in something that's just blatantly wrong, like, oh, your father never did anything for me.
	That is very vague.
	Exactly, yeah.
	Sexually, romantically, around the house.
	She would just say nothing.
	Yeah, she would just say he did nothing, which is weird because, like, he...
	You're there.
	Yeah, exactly.
	I'm there.
	I mean, unless it was, like, a lot of wine and a turkey baster, I mean, that's something.
	Yeah, he was the primary breadwinner, so it's such a weird thing to say.
	Oh, so she lies.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	He never did anything even though he paid the bills, right?
	Or he made the money to pay the bills.
	Yeah, but it's not a lie in her head, which is why it's so hard to talk to her.
	It's not a lie in her head?
	I think that may be an excess of empathy there, my friend.
	Perhaps.
	I mean, talk about an unverifiable hypothesis, right?
	Yeah, true, actually.
	I'm going to lift the maternal lid and look deep into the rainbow fog and determine the Hamina Hamina, right?
	Yeah, I mean, I was going to say it seems like that because...
	Because she would always get defensive if I challenged it, but that doesn't mean she doesn't know it's not a lie.
	She would do that either way.
	No, listen, if I say two and two make four, my daughter challenges that, I don't get defensive.
	Yeah.
	Because it just is, right?
	I mean, I can show you.
	Give me four coconuts and off we go, right?
	Right.
	So, yeah, I... I'm gonna just give you...
	I gotta move on, but let me just...
	I'm so sorry.
	I mean, you're a great guy to chat with, and I hope that you understand that you're a very, very engaging and enjoyable person to have a conversation with.
	That's important for you to know if you've got social anxiety.
	Very important.
	Thanks.
	Right?
	But here's some tips.
	Here's some tips.
	Look at the stuff she's into.
	You know, if she reads exclusively, you know, twisted BDSM erotica...
	Could be a warning flag.
	If she's had lots of relationships beforehand, real warning flag.
	I mean, the numbers are, you know, 80% chance, 80 to 85%, if I remember rightly, chance of marriage succeeding for the whole rest of your life if you marry a virgin.
	And that goes down...
	Yeah, it goes down a couple of percentage points for every additional partner.
	And once you're starting to talk like 10, 12, 15, 16, 20 partners, your chance of success, I mean, you might as well just have...
	Piranha lawyers eat your balls off before you even walk down the aisle.
	So there are particular tips and tricks.
	You know, does she have self-knowledge when she talks about her childhood?
	Does she giggle about catastrophes?
	Does she have a consistent and comprehensive narrative about her childhood?
	Does she, I dare say it, giggle when talking about really ugly or difficult things?
	Is she able in a conversation to be with you In other words, she can talk about herself without you feeling like you're Sandra Bullock-style tumbling in the deep space of her fundamental blindness to other people.
	And these are all things, how do you feel when you're in the presence of the person?
	Do you feel richer, deeper, connected, more powerful?
	Do you feel more who you are?
	Does she have curiosity and empathy?
	Does she have insights about who you are that are encouraging and not shaming?
	You said that your mother avoids topics, and that, of course, is exactly what happened with your last girlfriend, that you had a crossroads in the relationship that you both avoided and let inertia drift you apart, right?
	Yeah.
	And you have to know where your template is, right?
	This is where the self-knowledge part is so important.
	What was femininity to me when I was growing up?
	Is that all women, or is that my mother?
	Is that the result of female nature or is that a result of my mother's choices?
	And if we have issues with our mother, everybody does, right?
	I mean, my daughter's going to have issues with me too.
	But if we have issues with our mother, do we whitewash those issues by either blaming someone else or by universalizing her flaws as some sort of foundational essence of human frailty or female frailty or whatever?
	These are very, very important issues.
	If there are things about your mother that you don't like, are you aware that you don't like them?
	And are you aware of how they show up and how they manifest in other people's personalities and other women, how they come across?
	That's also very important.
	You know, there are specific things.
	I'll probably do a whole show on this another time.
	There are very specific things or weaknesses that Western men and Western women have as a whole.
	And I think Western men at the moment have a tendency to be too needy and to want to buy affection, either with money or with status.
	And I think that Western women have a bit of a tendency to avoid responsibility and be overtly sexual rather than soulfully excellent.
	And so there are things that look in the degree to which culture has programmed your expectations and your preferences around women.
	What do you think about the relationship between your sexuality and the future?
	And your sexuality should not be hijacked and turned into your own personal placing.
	You should recognize that sexuality is there to provide foundational monogamy-based pair bonding for child raising.
	And it doesn't mean you can't have, I'm not Catholic, non-procreational sex, but still what it's for, right?
	And that's fine if it doesn't, you know, I mean, recognizing that your tongue likes sugar because it was very rare throughout history to be able to find it.
	So you had to have a strong incentive to go and pursue that concentrated form of energy that could be the difference between life and death or catching the deer or not catching the deer.
	We understand that.
	It doesn't mean that once you know that you can't ever have a candy bar.
	It just means that you know that and can organize your life with that knowledge and not just eat sugar all day because it tastes good.
	So I think, you know, that's why I say, you know, therapy, talking to your family, finding out your history, mapping what you can and can't talk about with those who raised you is really, really important.
	And I, you know, I certainly, when my daughter asks me, I admit where I've made mistakes or things that I've done that are wrong, because I don't want her to ever think that you shouldn't admit these things.
	And also, I don't want her to think that to make the mistakes that Which is much more likely if I refuse to admit them.
	Does that help at all?
	And it's a bit of a scattershot.
	Yeah, that rings some bells.
	There's definitely some things that happen there.
	It should have been a warning sign when my girlfriend got along with my mother perfectly.
	Well, the warning sign is asking you to come and make out on Facebook.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that is an explicitly sexual presentation that is consciously or unconsciously entirely designed to bypass your reasoning.
	That's tits-to-lizard-brain electricity.
	Right?
	I mean, you probably, when thinking about the quality of the woman as a whole and whether this is going to be useful or appropriate or positive or negative or whatever, it's just like, whoa.
	I'm all tingly.
	Right.
	Upper brain shutting down.
	Spock dying, Kirk.
	Take over.
	Yeah.
	His face is on full insemination, Captain.
	Especially with this idea that's constantly spread that we should try and be...
	Romanticism should be spontaneous and not fought through.
	The idea that Spock would never have a relationship and Kirk would get all the girls.
	The idea is kind of very common.
	Yeah, and William Shatner has been married, what, five or six times?
	Something like that.
	Listen, I'm so sorry.
	Please call in.
	Again, I would absolutely be thrilled to chat with you again.
	Take some of this stuff under advisement.
	I'd say, you know, I mean, if you can get your hands on some therapy, I think that'd be great.
	Not because there's anything, you know, fundamentally broken.
	Again, if we make this pitch for therapy, therapy is like coaching, right?
	You don't say, well, I need a coach for ice skating because my legs are broken.
	No, you need a coach because you're a damn good ice skater and you need to get better.
	It's because of your potentiality that you go for therapy, not because you're broken and need to be fixed.
	So give that a shot.
	And if you're still having all these challenges, which I can fully understand, it's a long thing to turn around, give us a call back and we'll go through some more.
	Thanks very much.
	All right.
	Thanks, Toby.
	Really appreciate the call.
	Bye.
	Thanks, Toby.
	All right.
	Up next is Jillian.
	Jillian wrote in and said, Do you believe there could be negative consequences of children being financially dependent on their parents well into adulthood?
	You think?
	What do you think?
	Yeah, it sounds like a pretty obvious answer.
	And I've been listening to your show now for a couple of years and I've, you know, obviously realized that it is a problem and I'm trying to sort of...
	Is it your problem?
	It is.
	It is my problem.
	Yeah.
	Wait, as the giver or the receiver?
	No, as the receiver.
	Oh, well...
	I didn't, look, you don't sound old enough to be the giver.
	I just always want to make sure.
	I don't know.
	Maybe you're a grandmother at 30.
	I don't know.
	No, I'm 32.
	Can I maybe give you a little bit of background?
	I have something written down just to kind of give you an overview.
	I'd be thrilled.
	Okay.
	So, in my adult life, I've been through a lot of transitions, moving from place to place.
	So, for example, since 2008, I've lived in four different cities and at seven different addresses.
	And I know that my parents are always going to be there to bail me out financially, and that's because they always have.
	And I think that this is really holding me back from achieving my goals in life and specifically career goals.
	And I think that it's had a huge impact on my relationship with my parents because they have a tendency to be controlling.
	And I'm worried that I still rely on external validation from them.
	And there's a need to justify my decisions because of their past financial support.
	So I think that I lack self-belief and confidence as a result of their control.
	And I think there's a lot of feelings of guilt still there, which makes sense.
	Guilt on their part?
	Like I feel guilty.
	You feel guilty for taking the support?
	Yeah, like as if I owe them something for their financial support over the years, if that makes sense.
	Right.
	So I'm just trying to...
	So is that the end of what you read?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay.
	Alright.
	Now, have they been, and you don't have to give me any numbers, of course, right?
	And you can tell me to get lost anytime I step over a line.
	But has it been like a little bit of support?
	Or have you been like, you know, five bags with chihuahuas in them?
	I mean, what are we talking about?
	I would say like, there's been a lot of in between job support.
	So I've had quite a few number of jobs over the years.
	Um, so like, let's say from 2007 to 2008, I lived overseas for about a year and a half and I had a full-time job for maybe half the time I was there.
	And the other half the time that I was there, I was kind of, you know, doing some temporary work and in between jobs.
	So my dad would be sending me money for rent and to pay some of my bills.
	And so we're talking like, and I was in my mid to late twenties then.
	Um, So over the years, not including...
	No, don't, don't, don't.
	Thousands, not millions, right?
	Yeah, thousands.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And what do you...
	No, that's too leading a question.
	You go on and I'll try and add something when I think I can about you, but go ahead.
	So I've obviously realized that this is a problem because, well, that's one of the reasons why I'm calling you.
	So I have, you know, kind of taken a step back and I haven't asked them for money lately.
	And I have been in sort of a financial need because I am in between jobs again, which is another pattern that I should probably address with you.
	But I feel like when I have distance from them and when they're not giving me any money or specifically financial support for For what I need on a day-to-day basis.
	I don't feel this need to explain myself in terms of what I'm doing and what my career aspirations are or what I've accomplished.
	There's this sense of freedom and it's a really good feeling and I just want to be able to detach myself from my parents and not feel that kind of control that is still Wait, wait, wait.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm trying to follow this.
	I caught most of that.
	I just missed a little at the end.
	I always try and really make sure I understand what I'm going to say.
	Okay.
	So you're saying there's a sense of freedom that comes from having the safety net of your parents.
	Is that right?
	No, the freedom of not having it.
	Okay.
	I'm so sorry because that's why I want to make sure.
	Because then when you enter the control thing, I'm like, no, no, no.
	Okay.
	So not having the safety net gives you a sense of freedom.
	But how does the control manifest itself from your parents now?
	Okay.
	For example, my parents were like, have you gone to the dentist lately?
	Maybe we should give you some money for the dentist.
	Or have you done this?
	Or have you done that?
	It's this fear.
	They're living in this state of fear and they're worried that I can't take care of myself because I've been back in this cycle so many times and they've bailed me out.
	So I think that they're worried that, yeah, I'm incapable of taking care of myself.
	So that's where the control comes in.
	All right, all right.
	If that makes sense.
	Okay, so let me, I think, look, Jillian, I might have something to find out.
	I'm so excited.
	When you were a kid, when you were a kid, how did this manifest itself?
	Like, let's say that you didn't study for a test, or you didn't prepare something for school, or I don't know, whatever it was going to be.
	What happened?
	Probably wouldn't have happened because...
	What wouldn't have happened?
	I mean, I wouldn't have not prepared for a test or not been prepared for school.
	I was really type A that way.
	I always had my homework done in advance.
	I always did well in school.
	So it was like this...
	Yeah, my parents always placed a huge emphasis on getting a good education and going to university and being successful.
	So as a kid, they didn't bail you out?
	No.
	In terms of helping me with school and that kind of thing?
	Is that what you mean?
	Yeah.
	No.
	I wouldn't say so.
	Okay.
	If you were late somewhere, they wouldn't say, well, we'll drive you or whatever, right?
	Yeah, they would.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, they would.
	Look, and I'm not trying to say parents shouldn't do that, right?
	What I'm trying to figure out, because you made a statement which was, They're concerned I can't take care of myself.
	And that was as an adult.
	And my question was, which I think you're answering, is that they didn't seem to think you couldn't take care of yourself when you were a kid, but that changed somewhere between 18 and 32, right?
	You're right, actually, because when I was a kid, my mom...
	She literally did everything for me.
	She was a stay-at-home mom.
	She cooked my meals.
	She made my lunches.
	She drove me to school.
	She drove me to all my sporting events.
	She did my laundry.
	She did everything for me.
	And she didn't let me do it.
	I wasn't even allowed in the kitchen when she was cooking dinner to help because it was in her control and she was going to make dinner for everyone.
	You weren't What did she have, like, fences?
	Little electric fences or something?
	I mean, what is that?
	Trap doors?
	Spike traps?
	Bengal tiger traps?
	I mean, giant rolling Indiana Jones stone balls?
	I mean, don't come in!
	Guard dogs around the kitchen.
	Pretty much.
	There was no interfering.
	There was no help.
	Like, when help was offered, it was never allowed.
	And so it was her domain.
	And, you know, I think it was sort of...
	It contributed to a sense of her self-worth.
	It was who she was.
	She was like this power mom who took care of us and did everything for us, which obviously led to problems later because when I moved out, I didn't have a clue what to do.
	Sorry, you moved out to go to university, is that right?
	No, I actually stayed at home for university, and then in my last year of university...
	Why not?
	I mean, it's five star, baby!
	Yeah, exactly.
	And then in my...
	In my fourth year, I moved out and I actually lived with the guy I was seeing at the time and another roommate.
	It was closer to the university that I was attending.
	So I lived abroad.
	You lived with a guy and a roommate?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I think it was to save rent for when I was in university.
	And my parents were still pretty much supporting me at that point.
	I had a job when I was in university, but my dad was helping me with rent.
	And there was always that safety net.
	So why did you need your dad and a roommate to help you with rent if you had a job?
	I know.
	I don't know.
	Extra spending money?
	I can't tell you.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	How did that relationship go?
	Um, I think it lasted for about three years.
	Yeah, and then it was from, yeah, maybe 2003 to 2000, or maybe, yeah, 2003 to 2005 or 2006.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	And do you want to become a mom?
	I do.
	Yeah, I definitely do.
	Time's ticking away.
	I'm currently in a relationship.
	I didn't mention that.
	Sorry, yes.
	I actually live with my partner now across the country from my parents, so I don't live near them anymore.
	Right.
	But I'm in like a two-and-a-half-year relationship.
	Oh, good.
	You're going to get married?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	I'm not trying to attack you.
	Yes!
	Why would you ask?
	You're insulting.
	No, I mean, I'm just curious.
	I'm just genuinely curious.
	Yeah, we do have plans to get married.
	Yes.
	Right.
	And things are going really well.
	He's the one that actually introduced me to your show a couple years ago.
	Oh, cool.
	We listened to a lot of...
	What did you think of at first?
	I'm just curious.
	I'm trying to remember what the hell I was talking about a couple years ago.
	I was very interested in what you were talking about.
	I think that maybe with some of the stuff you were saying, initially I was a bit defensive.
	Excellent!
	Excellent!
	That's the plan!
	No, because then the defensive people run off because they're never going to be philosophers anyway.
	But you stayed.
	My parents are super religious and controlling.
	You've actually helped me resolve a lot of problems with my parents thus far.
	In particular, my relationship with my mom because We had a, the way that we communicated just over a year ago actually was literally like yelling back and forth until I set some boundaries about a year ago and we didn't speak for about a month and a half and now our relationship has changed quite significantly so thank you for that.
	For the better.
	Yes, yes.
	Good, good.
	I'm glad to hear that.
	I'm glad to hear that.
	Well, good for you and good for her.
	Please pass on my congratulations for adapting to, I'm sure, some rational preferences on your part.
	So, good.
	Good to know.
	So, now I'm just kind of...
	I guess what I'm wondering is how...
	I mean, I know that the financial support is not helping me.
	I mean, in terms of being able to stick to something career-wide.
	It's kind of like I always have this safety net.
	So I know that I can just keep on...
	There's nothing sort of...
	There's nothing...
	There's always something to fall back on.
	Like I know that there's something to fall back on.
	Yeah, I know.
	I get it.
	So I'm not taking the right risks and I'm not really putting myself out there the way that I should because of that, I think.
	All right.
	Does the boyfriend do that now too?
	Does he do what?
	Bail you out, pay the bills when you don't have an income, that kind of stuff.
	I'm not saying that's good or bad.
	I'm just trying to get him out.
	No, he doesn't.
	No, not so far.
	He hasn't, no.
	And when do you want to become a mom?
	We've talked about it before and probably in the next couple of years, like considering I'm 32 now and We've been together.
	We probably should be in the next year or two, in my humble opinion.
	Yes, yes.
	I actually should probably do some more research on that, and I trust your opinion.
	No, don't trust me anything medical, but look up the stats and talk to a doctor and all that.
	But you don't know.
	You don't get your FSH levels checked.
	You don't know.
	You don't know.
	You don't know what's going on there, but sooner is better than later, all other things being equal.
	And the reason I'm asking that is because I'm insufferably intrusive.
	Well, yes, but also, just because, I mean, if you're looking at becoming a mom in the next year or two, then, you know...
	Let me find the career I can really stick with may not be job one, right?
	Right.
	Well, I'm a yoga instructor, so there is a lot of flexibility in terms of being able to be able to do it.
	I'm sorry.
	I couldn't help myself.
	Of course, there's lots of flexibility.
	You're a yoga instructor.
	Very polite life.
	I appreciate it.
	Very generous life.
	Obviously, there's leeway in terms of scheduling and that kind of thing.
	I would like to be able to have something that's more flexible, where I can have something more entrepreneurial.
	A year ago, I was living in a different city with my current partner, and I was teaching almost full-time.
	We moved in October.
	I'm having some trouble finding regular classes.
	We've discussed it, and when we do have children, there will absolutely be one of us staying home with the child.
	Most likely me.
	It makes sense.
	If you look down, you might notice these little feeding bags.
	That, if I remember rightly, have some utility outside of that, but pretty useful for, you know, babies.
	But you do make a good point.
	I guess what I think about as well is When my child is older, wanting to still feel fulfilled personally, if that makes sense, in a career respect, outside of the huge job it is of being a parent, I want to still be able to explore that sense of personal fulfillment through my work, right?
	I don't know.
	Do you know what I mean?
	I mean, raising a couple of great kids, I mean, do you want more fulfillment?
	Isn't that like asking for icing on your icing?
	No, because look, I mean, being, you know, I don't know, it depends, your homeschool kids go, I don't know, whatever, that's going to be probably too early to talk about that stuff, but You can get really involved in your kids' lives, right?
	You can run the kind of household where all the kids want to come over and play.
	And you can get involved in the school.
	You can get involved in your homeschooling.
	Lots of things that you can do.
	It's not like, well, you know, now they're eight.
	You know, I've got nothing but time on my hands.
	Right.
	I think that's kind of an illusion.
	I could be wrong.
	I think that's kind of an illusion.
	But I wouldn't...
	I don't necessarily assume that that's going to be a big problem.
	I would say, what can I say?
	But I would say that if you throw yourself into parenting, if down the road you find that there's something that leaves you unfulfilled or you want to do more, then you can certainly start to explore that.
	But I wouldn't, you know, one of the great things about getting older is trying, and I'm not perfect at it, God knows to say the least, but try not to make problems or anticipate problems That aren't there yet.
	That's a very good point.
	I think that, you know, that's something...
	What if being a mom is...
	A mom and a community mom, right?
	Is like the best thing ever.
	It could be.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, I think that idea of like overplanning and thinking about the future a lot and like kind of creating problems in my mind is like something that, yeah, I definitely notice myself doing.
	All people with strong verbal skills have a tendency, I shouldn't say, most people with strong verbal skills have a tendency towards worry.
	I think that's fairly well established psychologically, so, you know, don't necessarily blame yourself.
	I mean, there's nobody who listens to this show who doesn't have strong verbal skills.
	I mean, they're not looking at it just to watch my gums flap.
	And so I assume that, you know, we're head of the worry war tribe.
	That's just the way it goes, right?
	Oh, okay.
	That makes sense.
	So do you...
	So as far as, like, you know, if you were 24 and you wanted kids in your 30s, then you'd have, like, a decade and you'd be back, right?
	But if you want to have kids sooner rather than later, which certainly would be my strong suggestion for whatever that's worth, I wouldn't worry so much about career, job, commitment, or whatever it is.
	Because, you know, I'm telling you that, you know, especially if your parents are across the...
	The country, you know, ain't nobody bailing me out from those 3am feedings.
	Yeah, that's true.
	You're committed, man.
	I thought I knew something about commitment before I became a parent of mine.
	What the hell did I know?
	I knew nothing!
	I'm committed to my forehand.
	Yeah, yeah.
	But, no, I mean, yeah, I mean, you're in, and there's, like, nothing but sometimes, it feels like.
	But go ahead.
	No, that makes sense.
	I didn't actually think about it from that angle.
	I just, I guess, just, like, this programming of, like, Even though I've talked about it countless times with my partner, I did believe when I was a kid, my mom was a stay-at-home mom, and I was always like, how could she just be a stay-at-home mom?
	Doesn't she want to do more?
	Doesn't she want to have a career?
	Obviously, I understand that there's so much value in that now, and that's just societal programming and government schooling and that kind of thing.
	No, a little bit of feminism, too.
	Right.
	Yeah, yeah.
	A little bit of feminism, too, which is you have to, like a career is what is necessary for female fulfillment.
	Right.
	For taxation purposes.
	Like just a mom?
	It's like, oh, sorry, I'm only shaping a human brain.
	Like Demi Moore with a pottery wheel.
	I mean, what are you?
	Oh, you're doing some typing.
	Oh, did you make a nice report?
	Oh, look, a memo.
	It's like, I am shaping a human mind.
	I'm creating thoughts out of nothing.
	I was trying to explain something to my daughter yesterday because I like to blow her mind and she enjoys it too.
	And I said, okay, puzzle me this, Batman, puzzle me this.
	A human being is a great way of turning a pig into a poem.
	She was doodling, trying to figure it out and so on.
	It's kind of a cool thing, right?
	Yeah, you eat a ham sandwich, you go write a poem.
	And that's kind of cool.
	So you are creating something that can turn a pig into a poem.
	It can turn a piece of lettuce into a table.
	Well, maybe that's a bit too much energy.
	I don't know.
	But, you know, other people, you know, oh, look, I mean, build a bridge.
	That's great.
	You know, that's very exciting and so on.
	But...
	To make a human being and to say, well, you know, but in order to be really satisfied, you have to produce a newsletter.
	It's like, a newsletter?
	Are you kidding me?
	It's just undervalued.
	I don't know.
	I'm a parent fetish, right?
	So, I mean, I just...
	I wouldn't necessarily say that, you know, let's say that you have two or three kids and you've created these amazing human beings who think for themselves, who argue, who debate, who create...
	And, you know, boy, if I'd only blogged more, you know, I'd be fulfilled.
	I don't know.
	I'm just saying that...
	Yeah, it's very undervalidated.
	I think that...
	I mean, a lot of feminism I like, but the feminism that comes out of the lefty, communist, Marx-y stuff is just toxic.
	I'm sorry.
	It's like the civil rights that come out of the communist stuff, you know?
	Pretty toxic.
	Yeah, I had to...
	And this idea that, well, all you've done is made and raised a human being.
	But that's vastly inferior to being a waiter.
	You know, it's just like, I don't know, come on.
	Be serious.
	And again, if people, you know, I'm not saying it's bad if one will go have a job, or it's fine, right?
	But, you know, I mean, you may be surprised at how greatly fulfilling it is to make a human being.
	I mean, it's just incredible.
	Yeah, and I had to spend years unlearning all that super leftist, Marxist stuff because I went to York.
	You have to give me trigger warnings, woman!
	It's okay.
	I graduated in 06, so I've had some time.
	When I went to York, it was just starting.
	Ah, white male, hang your head in shame for colonialism.
	It's like, hey man, I'm John Mills.
	I didn't own me no continents.
	In fact, people like me generally got killed protecting the people who owned those continents.
	But, um, yeah, no, trigger warnings are, York!
	York, I apologize to all women!
	Sorry, that's just, I hear York, I'm not worthy.
	Yeah, so there is a lot of that stuff, and there is a lot of, um, You're, you know, you're better than merely making human beings.
	It's like, isn't that why we worship God?
	Because he makes people?
	I mean, but if only God had blogged, if only God had written some memos, then we'd really worship him.
	Because, you know, just making human beings and all the animals.
	I mean, especially the snakes with the plasticine, that's dead simple.
	I mean, if only God had had a career, then we'd be really into worshiping him.
	Okay.
	But no, I think making life is pretty cool enough.
	And, you know, I guess if your kids grow up and you're in your 50s, yeah, you can do cool stuff then.
	You've still got 30 years of more and more, probably, 40 years.
	I mean, there's tons of time there.
	But what was the other thing I wanted to say?
	Ooh, it was important to you.
	We may never know.
	I'm telling you, Julie, we may never, ever know.
	Yeah.
	Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	So...
	That's right.
	Yes.
	Let's get back to your mutter.
	Right.
	What?
	What was her motivation for doing everything for you?
	Because you gave a lot of very positive taking care of us and support.
	Like...
	What was her motivation?
	Because that's not good parenting.
	No, I know it's terrible parenting.
	I'm not saying she's a bad parent as a whole, but that aspect of doing everything for your kids?
	Not, hey, elbow aside, kids, I'll finish these letters for you.
	Look at them, they're perfect.
	Why can't she spell?
	Right?
	I mean...
	What was her motivation?
	Well, I watched a video or listened to a video that you talked about this specifically, I think, a couple years ago and talking about like not giving your children any preferences and like them not having any confidence.
	I mean, excuse my paraphrasing, but I mean, I think her motivation was control.
	I particularly enjoyed the sing song where you did it.
	I didn't even notice that.
	I'm sure that's what most people hear too.
	I think, well, she was really controlling.
	And I think, like I said before, I think that doing all that stuff was attached to her identity.
	Like, it was who she was.
	Like, and I think that...
	Yeah, that's...
	Which is bad.
	She did it because it's who she was.
	That's called a tautology.
	Why did she do it?
	Well, it's who she was.
	Well, if it's who she was, it's not what she did.
	And if it's what she did, there was a choice involved, which can't mean it's who she was, right?
	Right.
	Control.
	So let's try that one again.
	Okay.
	Without the whole mark.
	She was.
	De-platitude thyself.
	Young lady.
	Okay, so, well, the first thing that comes to mind is the control.
	Like having control over everything that was going on in my life and not letting me make my own choices or do anything for myself.
	But I'm probably missing something else.
	No, that's the behavior.
	What's the motive?
	So I have to depend on her?
	That may be a consequence.
	What's the motive?
	Oh, don't you like it when I ask these opaque questions, which there's no obvious answer.
	What's the motive?
	The dependency is the result.
	Control.
	Help me out here, Stefan.
	Okay, well, what happens?
	And look, it's a tough question, so I get it, right?
	When you get it, you'll get a huge, giant click in your head, which we'll actually hear all the way over here.
	But there's no reason why you'd get it up front.
	I just want you to know that.
	I certainly took forever, right?
	So the question, when you ask motive, the question is, what occurs for your mom if she doesn't do that stuff?
	If she grits her teeth and says...
	I'm going to turn laundry over to you.
	And teach you the laundry, turn it over to you.
	What happens to your mom emotionally if that is her choice?
	What feelings arise in her?
	Incomplete?
	Not a feeling.
	A crossword.
	Most of my crosswords, but not a feeling.
	Emptiness?
	Or dissatisfaction?
	Usually it's more vivid than that.
	Because it's pretty compulsive behavior, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, if she was still doing your laundry when you're like 17, 18, 19...
	My sister is...
	It means that if she doesn't do it, there's some emotion that arises in her that is probably kind of unbearable to her.
	To repetitively do what is obviously not optimum parenting, it means she has to be avoiding some negative emotion in her that's very strong.
	Anxiety?
	I don't know.
	That's not an emotion either.
	No, anxiety.
	I think fear.
	Anxiety.
	Fear.
	My sister's 29 years old and she doesn't live at home anymore, but she goes home on the weekends and my mom does her laundry.
	Right, okay.
	So the challenge, let me backfill in, and I think you're bang on, right?
	Which doesn't mean anything other than what I think.
	It doesn't mean it's true, right?
	I'm just telling you what I think.
	But while your mother was busy with all of this stuff, she didn't have to interact with you as much, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Would she have to provide value to you?
	How does she provide value to you if she's not doing your laundry and your cooking and your cleaning and your tidying and your what, what, what, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	How does she provide value to you if she's not providing services to you?
	Right.
	And I think that's why you said emptiness first, which I think is probably quite true.
	Yeah, because even when I would try and talk to her about anything...
	Even when I was visiting last summer and I would try to engage with her and talk about, you know, in the last call you're talking about, talking about real things, like having real things that matter and discussions about things that are important.
	And when I would try and engage with her, she'd be like scrubbing the countertop or like cleaning the microwave, like the outside of the microwave or like she'd be doing something, you know, like she couldn't fully engage with me.
	Does that make sense?
	Or even partially, right?
	Yeah.
	Because it's distracting trying to have a conversation with someone who's scrubbing all the depth away.
	It's so distracting.
	It's frustrating.
	Right.
	Now, but what if you said, Mom, I'm here to talk.
	I'm here to visit.
	Stop.
	Stop.
	Sit down and talk with me.
	She'd be like, well, I have to get all this done because, you know, I'm going out to do this or, you know.
	Right.
	And I'd say, look, all I want is half an hour, 20 minutes.
	Mm-hmm.
	So let's try that.
	Let's try that.
	Okay, so you're not scrubbing and I'm you.
	And I say, Mom, it's really distracting.
	Could you put that stuff down for 20 minutes?
	Let's just chat.
	No, no, I can't.
	I have to go pick your sister up and I have a million things to do this afternoon, so I've got to get this done.
	It's really important to me.
	If you could just give that a rest.
	I promise I will do what you're doing when you go to pick up my sister.
	I will get it done.
	But I would really like, because I'm trying to chat with you, I find it really distracting.
	Julian, you know, we can talk about it later.
	I don't have time right now.
	No, no, I'm just telling you that I'll do it for you.
	I'm making the time for you right now.
	You know what they say, tomorrow never comes, later is, you know?
	She wouldn't want to do it for me.
	She would say, no, I gotta do it.
	Like she wouldn't, sorry, she wouldn't let me do it for her.
	Right.
	So then I would say, wait, are you saying that it's physically impossible for you to not do this right now?
	Right.
	It's a choice, right?
	I mean, we have to breathe.
	We are subject to gravity.
	This particular moment of scrubbing is not absolutely necessary, right?
	In the same way.
	Right.
	Now, and so at some point she'd have to say, no, I don't have to do it, but I really want to, right?
	Yeah.
	And then we'd have to say, okay, well, I'm just curious, right?
	Because what would happen if you did put that down and come and chat with me for 20 minutes?
	What do you think you'd feel?
	Mm-hmm.
	And if she pushed back even further, which she probably would, right?
	Because that's some pretty deep self-management going on there.
	If she pushed back even further, I mean, you can't corner people and you can't rip the things out of their hands.
	But what you can say is, okay, what time tomorrow?
	You can do 20 minutes with me now, or I'm going to request an hour tomorrow where you don't do anything other than chat with me.
	Mm-hmm.
	Because at some point, she's going to have to admit that she has to have an hour in the day to talk with her daughter.
	Or if she says, well, I can't possibly do that, it's like, okay, well, do you think that maybe something in your life is a little out of balance if you can't take some time to chat with your daughter who wants to talk with you?
	And I'm not trying to talk to you about something bad or anything.
	Criticism is nothing.
	It's just, I want to be able to chat with you without this...
	You know, this feverish, scrub all the sins from the world stuff.
	And my dad would do the same thing in a different way.
	When I was a kid, if I asked him to help me with my homework or to read over something that I had done that I wanted him to proofread or something, it would always be like this, okay, yeah.
	I was always disrupting whatever he was doing or inconveniencing him.
	You know, so obviously there's some resentment built up.
	Well, I feel, you know, and then, you know, like never, never spending any time with me except for like at family functions when everybody was together or, you know, at our prearranged like family dinners or there was never like, let's go for a walk and like have a coffee or have a chat or whatever.
	There was never any of that.
	And that's because my parents are super, super defensive.
	And I would always challenge...
	Even before I discovered this show and learning more about philosophy, I would always challenge their beliefs or just challenge them on their way of life.
	And they just got super defensive and it would always turn into this huge...
	Yeah, like argument.
	And I've only recently learned how to talk to them without myself getting upset because I'm a lot more aware because I learned all those behaviors from them and now I don't let it affect me the way that we used to.
	It just used to be back and forth screaming matches.
	And then I had a discussion with my mom about a year ago and I said, this isn't going to be how we communicate anymore.
	I'm setting boundaries because she would just scream at me.
	I'm very sorry.
	I'm so sorry.
	I mean, I know that this stuff happens a lot in families, but I am very sorry.
	I'm sorry for both of you.
	I mean, I'm not trying to portray your mom as, she's the primary agent, she's the parent and all that, but I'm sorry for both of you that it got to the point where screaming Felt like the right thing to do.
	I mean, that is...
	A lot of missed opportunities for intimacy result in that kind of short circuit.
	And I'm just very sorry for all of that.
	Thank you.
	And I mean, one of the biggest things is honestly watching the show has helped me communicate with them so much better.
	And, you know, I understand that I've been doing therapy on and off since I was really young, since I was a teenager.
	But I've been actively working on learning about myself and trying to change bad habits and the way I communicate.
	And they haven't really been working on themselves yet.
	At all.
	So I feel like when I'm having a conversation with them now, I'm so aware of what's happening that when it starts to get to a point of where they're getting heated, I just say, you're getting upset.
	I don't want to have this conversation anymore if you're going to raise your voice.
	Sometimes it's difficult.
	It's obviously really challenging, but it has helped improve The way that we do communicate now.
	Yeah, I mean, definitely if people have those kinds of bad habits, if you allow them to impact the relationship, it really takes axe blows to the base of the tree.
	And so I'm very glad, Jillian, that you are able to intercept that behavior on the part of your parents and not have it manifest.
	Because it's very damaging.
	Very damaging.
	You know, families...
	Everybody is so close, just from proximity and history and coming out of someone's body.
	Everyone is so close that it's always struck me that whispers are so loud in the family mind.
	And I think that the amount of hysteria and destructive emotional energy that some people bring to the family life is so over the top compared to what is necessary.
	You know, like, I mean, the mom's yelling at my kids all day.
	It's like, you're their mom.
	I mean, what do you need to yell for?
	I mean, you're a god to them.
	Yeah, it's terrible.
	And I know in my mom's case, it's because that's how her mom raised her, and she never looked anywhere outside of that.
	So everything that she learned was from her mother, and then she carried that on.
	With yelling and screaming and spanking and everything.
	That's just how she managed us when we were kids.
	It was a terrible experience.
	I'm so glad that I'm starting to learn a lot more about this.
	Watching your peaceful parenting videos and podcasts on related topics.
	I mean, the first thing I had to do was to kind of discover my own reactions that I learned from them and then try and figure out what happened to my childhood, you know, with that method of parenting.
	I wouldn't know if I'd classify it as parenting.
	Do you have many regrets about your 20s or are you relatively okay with them?
	Probably some regrets.
	Yeah, definitely some regrets.
	Just in terms of being financially dependent on my parents, Um, which I sort of felt like I was giving them the reins to control a lot of the decisions that I made and was looking for their validation when I made choices instead of being able to make choices independently.
	So a lot of, you know, influence from them as opposed to making decisions independently.
	Yeah, like, being in relationships and being unhappy, and I think just because I didn't have the self-knowledge, you know, overreacting and fighting with past boyfriends and, you know, dating guys that controlled me, for example, because I didn't realize that's what I was seeking.
	Like, I didn't realize it at the time, but...
	Does that answer your question?
	Sort of rambling.
	It does, it does.
	And what kind of upgrade do you think your children are going to have over your childhood?
	I want it to be like 500 million percent better than...
	Google Play.
	My daughter's favorite number.
	Just in terms of being able to negotiate things, obviously no...
	I mean...
	I want to treat my children like equals.
	And I never felt like my preferences were considered when I was a kid, so I'm very aware of that.
	And just even the way that I see people speak to their children on the streets, like this very authoritarian sort of, you know, I'm the parent, I know best mentality that I would never, that's an approach I would never want to take.
	So yeah, peaceful parenting.
	Absolutely.
	Yeah, and the reason I was thinking about that is because your question was to some degree about regret, about your parents' over-support of you, if we can use that phrase.
	Right.
	Against deficiencies.
	Mm-hmm.
	Do you mind if you get comfortable and I do a tiny rant?
	No, that's fine.
	No, let's be honest.
	Medium rant.
	Go for it.
	Okay, Jillian, you are a very, very good woman.
	You are a very, very good person.
	I'm just gonna go with my gut here.
	And I'm gonna give you a bigger view than your 20s.
	I'm not gonna pull the 40s card, the pushing 50 card.
	But I want you to look at these generations that go back To the point where we're dropping out of trees and starting to think maybe we can walk upright.
	Now in that chain of being that has resulted in you at 32, with a guy you love, with children you want, and your commitment to not change history, to surmount history, to be the The ubermensch, the overman, the overwoman.
	Not in reaction to history, not in defiance of history, not against history, but as if there was no history.
	And that's all human progress is.
	Let's pretend there's no history.
	Let's pretend there's no momentum.
	Let's pretend there never was slavery and it was never right.
	Let's pretend that...
	Women should have all the same rights as men and the same responsibilities.
	Let's pretend that we don't need kings.
	Let's pretend there is no history.
	Let's live like there's no history.
	Not to fight history, not to overthrow history, not to rebel against history, but to live according to rational values without history.
	Now, you said that your mother did what she did because her mother did what she did.
	Not true, fundamentally.
	Choice has existed for many thousands of years, but for whatever alchemical reason, whatever X factor around free will and free choice, maybe if your mom had listened to this show before she became a mom, if it had been around, it might have changed some things.
	But if you take a look at the larger picture, the human story, the story of civilization, the story of the species, You came from a very controlled and very verbally aggressive household.
	You have pursued and explored self-knowledge, Jillian, for many years.
	You are using this show as leverage to gain greater insight and greater control over your life and your choices.
	And your children will be among the luckiest in the world.
	Your children We'll be among the luckiest in the world, in the present, let alone in history.
	You know, in the 16th and 17th centuries, one of the evening's entertainments used to be you get a cat after dinner and you set it on fire.
	You would just go out and catch a cat.
	It would be everywhere, right?
	Because mice and rats were everywhere in the cities.
	And that's where people grew up.
	There would be entertainments like you'd just go out, grab some popcorn, and watch some guy get drawn and quartered, which was having...
	Or have him have rope tied to horses to each arm and leg and have him pulled apart in front of you.
	And people would cheer or hangings, beheadings.
	And this is really only a couple of hundred years ago in the West.
	Just today in Saudi Arabia, a man was sentenced to death for the crime of apostasy, which is he renounced his faith.
	And he was sentenced to death.
	Oh, my God.
	And in the big picture of human history and the contribution that you're going to make to the forward movement of that human history, your children will never have to struggle to parent the way that you parent.
	And that won't make them weaker.
	You know, like your parents giving you money or may have challenged some of your ambitions or whatever.
	But the reality is that the strength that you will provide to your children through the overcoming and catapulting over history is a gift that will spread across the world down the generations.
	You have fundamentally changed the direction of your gene pool, which means changing the direction of the human story, changing the direction of history, changing the direction of the future.
	And I give you that perspective, and will defend that to my dying day.
	I give you that perspective, Jillian, because I really want you to get, at a very deep level, how unbelievably important what you're doing is.
	How fundamentally essential what you're doing is.
	What an unbelievable reversal of family history and family fortunes You are taking on, and I have no doubt, you will achieve with spectacular flying colors.
	That's why when you earlier said, but I might want to do some more yoga, or I might want to, you know, have a career.
	And I, look, I'm not saying don't, I mean, you know, nobody listens to me and they shouldn't, right?
	As far as do this or don't do that.
	And I hope I never tell people much of anything about that.
	But if you look at the tipping point of who you are, In the whole history of your gene pool and what you have committed to and what you are going to offer your children and their children and the whole spread, the whole wide searchlight of wide-spilling sunlight that comes out of a good heart committed in particular to great parenting,
	what you are going to offer the world, what you are going to create with Your boyfriend, your fiance, your husband, your children, their children, all the children they come in contact with, with whom their peace and their virtue will have an effect, a ripple effect.
	What you have changed and what you will change in the human story, in the story we will look at over the centuries, what you are contributing to the human story by changing Foundationally and fundamentally where you came from and what you're providing to the future, you are a gorgeous ninja of infinite possibilities.
	And I really wanted to just make that case for you, because that's why I asked you about regret in your 20s and so on, because like all of us, we look at this day-to-day.
	We look at the little...
	I mean, the day-to-day is important, you know, you've got to pay your bills and blah, blah, blah.
	But I really want to give you that perspective of depth, size, height, wisdom, power, and change that you are bringing to the planet.
	And you would bring that to the planet if you never had kids.
	You'd bring that to the planet if you just loved one guy.
	But if you are going to have kids and you are going to get involved, and when you have a kid, you get communities.
	I mean, it's just the way it works.
	And you are going to spread that and you're going to talk to people and you're going to say, even if you never say anything, your example with your children will spread and instruct other people who maybe have never even, it's never even crossed their minds that they don't have to raise their voices at their children.
	Or maybe they thought that it could never work.
	Or maybe they thought that it was wrong to do that.
	You have to yell at your children because otherwise they don't listen.
	Yeah, yeah, because we all listen when people yell at us, right?
	We don't freeze up, right?
	And so what you're going to bring to the world, what you are bringing to the world, and everything that brought you to the age of 32, being ready if you want to start a family, everything that brought you here is an incredible gift to the future, is an incredible gift to the species, is an incredible gift to your children.
	You've already given a gift to your parents, right?
	And it is an incredible gift to the community that you're going to find yourself part of through the process of raising children.
	Now, you tell me about a way to spend your life and I'll do it.
	Wow.
	Thank you so much for that perspective.
	I mean, I know that my boyfriend and I have conversations about your shows and just about those deep conversations.
	We have them probably at least once or twice a day.
	And the importance, like you reiterating the importance of setting an example and reiterating the value that we're bringing to the world, it's really...
	Yeah, it's really important.
	It's really breathtaking to think about it that way.
	Yeah.
	That's just the only revolution that matters.
	And you're right in the front lines.
	Because you don't have a template.
	You don't have the example.
	You don't have a silhouette to push yourself through.
	You are right in the front lines of the greatest revolution, the most necessary revolution, and the only revolution that really matters.
	And that is heroic.
	And that is breathtakingly powerful.
	Yeah, it really is.
	It just makes everything else seem so unimportant now.
	Well, that's...
	Not unimportant.
	I have to remind myself of this, too.
	You know, I'm not sitting here floating on clouds a lot.
	Thousands of you of my life.
	I mean, I have to remind myself of that, too, because we all get dragged down in the mundane, and that's no problem.
	I mean, that's natural.
	But that's the kind of zoom out That we need to get to replenish ourselves from the everyday.
	The everyday drains us.
	The everyday reduces us.
	And that's fine.
	You don't want to live in the clouds.
	But I think that the refueling, the oasis in the desert, is the perspective, the zoom out.
	And what you're doing with your boyfriend and what you're doing with your life, God, I mean, whatever you've done to get where you are is perfect.
	It's a lot to let sink in, but I really do appreciate the perspective and the whole zoom out idea is really important to remember as well.
	Yes, I say it to you to remind myself as much as well.
	Listen, we've got a couple other calls.
	Will you let us know how things are going?
	Yes, of course I will.
	Thank you so much again, Stefan.
	I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about this stuff.
	It was very helpful.
	It is.
	My pleasure.
	Thank you so much for calling in.
	Mike, just before we get to the next caller, I've got to grab a snack.
	I'm low on fuel.
	Okay.
	Are you all snacked up stuff?
	I'm getting there.
	The first part is always me listening, so go ahead.
	Alright, well up next is Jeff.
	Jeff wrote in and his question is as follows.
	How is it that atheism escapes the grasp of the burden of proof?
	Isn't it the case that the burden of proof is based on the quote-unquote belief and not the existence or non-existence of the thing under contention?
	Obviously, incorrect examples of negation of a concept of proof require a burden of proof.
	I do not believe elephants can fly.
	Then the burden of proof is on who doesn't believe me.
	I do not believe giant octopuses exist.
	Then the burden of proof is on anyone who doesn't believe me.
	The negation of a concept seems to have no bearing on the burden of proof.
	Isn't it simply the belief or disbelief, i.e.
	the decision to believe slash disbelieve, that creates the burden of proof?
	Hi there.
	Hi, how are you doing?
	Well, how about yourself?
	Not well, thank you.
	I really enjoyed your last two conversations and I appreciate your time.
	Oh, I appreciate you calling in.
	Very interesting question.
	I don't think it's just because I was chewing, but I did have a bit of trouble following some of the argument.
	Can you just give me a summary?
	Sure.
	Essentially, it seems as though atheists in general, and this is obviously a generalization, that atheists Atheists claim that they lack the burden of proof simply because they have a disbelief in God.
	And the fact that they disbelieve something is essentially, it lacks the burden of proof because of the fact that they disbelieve in something.
	So, like I was saying, you know, I do not believe elephants can fly, and because I don't believe elephants can fly, Because I disbelieve something, it's my disbelief that, consequently, I lack the burden of proof because I disbelieve something, which inherently seems invalid.
	It's not the fact that you disbelieve something that you lack a burden of proof.
	Okay, I think I understand where you're coming from.
	Listen, I mean, where I go astray, obviously just, you know, bark in my ear and set me back on the right path, but I'll answer it as I think the argument goes and obviously let me know.
	Atheism and theism is not based on belief.
	Not based on belief.
	Belief is...
	Something in the category of epistemology or the study of knowledge.
	I could believe I'm a great dancer, right?
	I could believe that I'm an adequate dancer.
	I could believe I'm a bad dancer.
	I could believe lots of different things.
	But I don't think that that would be to say that metaphysically something exists or does not exist.
	Theism versus atheism.
	It's not a belief system.
	Theism is not a belief system.
	Theism is an objective claim that consciousness exists without matter.
	That life exists without birth or death or evolution or adaptation or creation.
	That consciousness, sorry, that material-less consciousness can exist for all eternity And it's all-powerful and all-knowing and whatever.
	I mean, whatever is that.
	It's not a belief.
	People say, I believe in God.
	And that's a shorthand and kind of a cheaty shorthand.
	Because when people say, I believe in God, they are escaping the burden of proof.
	Because...
	If they say, I believe in God, they're saying something that's true, which is they believe in God.
	Now, if they were to say, instead of I believe in God, if they were to say, God, or immaterial, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient consciousness exists objectively in the universe.
	Well, then the next statement would be, well, okay, it's quite a fantastical thesis, but I'd like to see your proof.
	But when people say, I believe in God, you can say, well, I accept that you believe in God.
	It's true that you believe in God.
	But God is not something that we...
	I don't believe in Everest.
	I don't believe that two and two make four.
	I don't believe that there's carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere.
	I don't believe in the moon.
	These things just are.
	I mean, to believe in something is to put your belief first and foremost.
	And who cares what people believe?
	I mean, what I care about is if people are making truth, objective truth statements or claim statements about the universe and its content, then they need to prove what they're saying.
	Now, if somebody says...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, no, go ahead.
	Sorry.
	No, no, that was the end of that part before I start another part.
	So if you had something to say about that part, then...
	Sure, yeah, I was just going to reiterate.
	Say it, you should.
	Yeah, I was just going to reiterate that I think my assertion still is valid just with regard to making a claim that then really, to restate what I said, that theists are making a claim Of God's existence, and atheists are making a claim for God's lack of existence, non-existence.
	And the same still holds true, that there's a burden of proof for either, that there's...
	No, there's not.
	I'm sorry to interrupt, but there's a difference between claiming that something does not exist.
	And that has to do with the possibility of its existence.
	So if I say, Jeff, I know for sure that there are no unicorns in the universe anywhere.
	And let's just say for this definition, unicorns are horses with horns on their heads, right?
	Can I make that claim rationally?
	You're talking about theists making a claim, right?
	No, no, hang on.
	Let's just stay with the unicorns, right?
	Okay.
	So if I say, Jeff, I can state with absolute certainty that there's no such thing anywhere In the universe that are horses with horns on their heads.
	Can I make that claim?
	You can make that claim if you can prove the fact that you found a horse, that you can show me there's a horse with...
	No, no, no.
	There's no such thing as horses anywhere in the universe.
	They do not exist anywhere in the universe.
	Horses with horns on their head.
	I'm not trying to trick you in anything.
	I'm just...
	No, I can't make that claim.
	No, yeah.
	It is impossible to state with certainty that possible things cannot exist.
	By definition, they're possible, right?
	Therefore, there is no such thing as atheism.
	I agree.
	No.
	No, remember I said there are two categories, right?
	Well, because the reason why I say that...
	Oh, go ahead.
	Go ahead.
	Well, so the reason I can't say that is even if I were somehow to be able to examine one every billionth of a second, every content of every planet or every body, I could find that there were no Horses with horns on their head, well, the universe is billions and billions of light-years across.
	By the time I get to the end, one could have evolved in the beginning, right?
	So it's completely impossible to ever logically say that possible entities do not exist.
	There was one clarification that I read just today, actually, on Wikipedia, which I felt was very helpful, at least for me.
	It says, proving a negative.
	This is under philosophical burden of proof.
	It's under proving a negative.
	It says, if I can read it real quick, when the assertion to prove a negative claim, when the assertion to prove is a negative claim, the burden takes the form of a negative proof, proof of impossibility or evidence of absence.
	Now, under evidence of absence, it actually goes into more detail, and it says that Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
	Right.
	Which, everything I hear atheists attempt to claim is that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, which it's not.
	No, and I agree with that.
	You know, I agree with that principle, of course, right?
	So for those who don't know what that means, and there's no particular reason why people would.
	Sure.
	Evidence of absence is not absence of evidence.
	If I look at a room, a picture of a room, and somebody says to me, is there air in the room or not?
	And I say, well, I can't see any air in the room.
	Of course I can't see air.
	That's not the point.
	I can't see any air in the room.
	That doesn't prove that it's not there.
	Now, the room could be vacuumed with no air in it.
	It could be in some abandoned space station or something like that, right?
	So it could be...
	So the fact that I can't, you know, I can't see it doesn't mean that it's not there.
	I mean, absence of evidence throughout most of human history, nobody could see x-rays, right?
	Yeah.
	Doesn't mean that they didn't exist.
	Infrared, etc.
	You can't see radiation without a Geiger counter or without something that translates it.
	It doesn't mean that it's not there.
	So I'm, yeah, absolutely.
	I'm fully down with all of that.
	I mean, I think in the same regard with what you just said, that it's Effectively very difficult or impossible to prove atheism.
	I don't think that that relieves it.
	No, no, no.
	I didn't say that.
	I don't think that relieves it.
	It's a burden of proof.
	That doesn't absolve it.
	No, no, no.
	I didn't say it was impossible to prove atheism.
	What I said was that you cannot rationally say that possible entities do not exist anywhere in the universe because they're possible.
	And you can't possibly verify, simultaneously, that some entity does not exist anywhere in the universe because of the limitation of the speed of light.
	That's why I think atheism as a whole is a really...
	No, no!
	You keep bringing atheism into it!
	I'm not doing that yet!
	So, what are you referring to then?
	Make a different inference.
	So, possible entities may exist.
	The question is, is a deity a possible entity?
	That's all it comes down to.
	If a deity is not a possible entity, then we can with certainty say that it does not exist.
	I think that's one of the trouble, that's one of the difficulties is the classification.
	From my experience, and I don't mean to generalize if, you know, I think you consider yourself an atheist, I don't mean to sort of project this on you necessarily, but it's been my experience that it's sort of a simplification for atheists to refer to God as a deity.
	And that the two are interchangeable, which really excludes a fairly large variety of theists.
	You know, I googled it, and there's like 4,200 different gods, as I understand it, per Google.
	So it's hard to say that all gods are deities.
	I think that that's one of the misconceptions, much less that all gods are monotheists.
	And or all gods are Christianity.
	I think a lot of theists actually tend to, or atheists tend to, whittle down God to just primarily the easy target, is sort of how I see it.
	It's like, if I can...
	Yeah, I can't speak to other atheists of what they say or what they do.
	Sure.
	So far, you're just saying that there's a problem with simplification and whittling down, which according to the languages, it's like saying something is an oversimplification.
	It's like, well, I don't know.
	But what I can say is that...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Like what you just said, excuse me, like what you just said.
	You associated God with a deity, and I don't think that that necessarily is accurate.
	There are What is the difference between a god and a deity?
	And the reason I use deity is because when I say god, people usually translate that within their own mind to be their particular deity, right?
	The Christian god or whatever it is, right?
	Their particular conception of it.
	Or what they've been taught.
	And so deity is a bit more of a neutral term?
	Yeah, I guess I think of it as, you know, some sort of person.
	And I don't know if that's how you're referring to it as.
	I've mentioned as part of my email that I'm a pantheist.
	So my person...
	Yeah, listen, I'm sorry, but we're just drifting off topic here and we're getting into language stuff, which is not part of what I'm arguing for.
	So I don't mean to just say it's got to be about me, but let me finish my argument and then we can take it from there.
	Now the question is, can one reliably say that nowhere in the universe Is there a square circle?
	Yeah, sorry, I'm trying to think of two things.
	Your question and its correlation to atheism.
	No, no, don't try.
	That's trying to figure out where I'm going, and that's going to end up with you not being in that particular conversation.
	Okay.
	So, a unicorn, like a horse with a horn on its head, could absolutely exist in the universe.
	And we cannot ever say that it doesn't.
	And be honest.
	Sure.
	Alright.
	But can we say that nowhere in the universe is there a square circle?
	I would say no.
	You know, dimensionally, is it feasible?
	I don't know.
	No, because its existence is contradictory.
	You cannot have something that is both a circle and a square at the same time.
	Okay.
	Because a square has...
	Right-angle corners and a circle has no corners.
	So, things which are possible cannot be denied, absolutely.
	Life on other planets, is it possible?
	Statistically, it's a certainty.
	I mean, it's pretty much a virtual, complete and total certainty that there's life on other planets.
	And so we can't say there's no such thing as space aliens.
	But we can say There's no such thing as square circles.
	And so the question is, do deities or gods or whatever you want to call them, do they exist in the category of unicorns or do they exist in the category of square circles?
	Now, if they exist in the category of unicorns, then we say, well, they could be possible because horses with horns on their heads could exist, but nobody has the right to say that they do exist because they have not been established or proven.
	Nobody has the right to say that they do exist and nobody has the right to say that they do not exist.
	Which would be the agnostic position, right?
	I am space alien agnostic, leaning very much towards their there, right?
	And they'll come in malls, mall ships, because it's only the free market that will give them that capacity to go between the stars.
	So I am agnostic to the vast majority of things that are proposed as existing in the universe.
	Fairies may exist, right?
	I don't know.
	I mean there could be, I don't think in this world, but you know these things which are not rationally impossible can never be denied potential existence, but things which are rationally impossible can very much be denied and with great certainty rational empirical existence.
	That's why two and two will never make five and I believe, I'm no scientist in this, but I think that the idea that you could have mass without gravity is a contradiction, because mass and gravity are two sides of the same coin.
	I think the idea that you could have a square circle, I think that all of these kinds of things are not possible, or that matter can be either created or destroyed.
	Yeah, sorry, I'm having difficulty because it feels like you're sort of Framing it from a monotheistic perspective.
	No, it doesn't matter.
	Forget the monotheism, because now you're going back to your polytheism, right?
	So it doesn't matter if the argument is that consciousness can exist without matter, that is false.
	Okay, yeah, I agree.
	Okay, so there cannot be consciousness without matter.
	Therefore, there cannot be an immaterial deity.
	Therefore, the deity has to have solid form, and therefore the deity, in order for anyone to claim its existence, they have to produce it.
	Right?
	If I say something which is detectable by science or our senses exists, however improbable it may be, well, then I need to produce it.
	Now, if I say that something which is potentially Possible.
	Exists.
	And I cannot produce it.
	That does not mean it does not exist.
	It simply means that I cannot claim that it does.
	It just could.
	That I can't.
	That I can't fulfill the burden of proof.
	Yeah, because if you say...
	You're referring to fear.
	Some super...
	Superdude.
	I called him in an earlier show.
	Some superdude, right?
	Somebody from some planet around Betelgeuse comes and he's got a crazy...
	Technology that's indistinguishable from magic and he can roll plasticine into snakes and breathe life into clay and all this kind of cool David Copperfield stuff.
	Well, he can do all of this stuff.
	We can videotape it.
	We can talk to him.
	We can touch him.
	You know, he's got physical, tangible, material existence.
	And so even if he can teleport around, you know, you can still see him and all that, right?
	So if somebody says the superdude exists, then it's like, okay, well, show me.
	And if he can't show me the superdude exists, doesn't mean superdude doesn't exist.
	It just means he can't say that he does, because he hasn't proven it.
	He can't just show it, right?
	You're referring to theists, not to atheism, because atheism has the same burden, just in the negation, right?
	No, atheism has only the burden to dis...
	well, atheism cannot disprove the existence of potentially valid beings.
	The question is, is a god a potentially valid being?
	And the answer is, at least according to, I mean, unless you want to invent a god that's basically just a super dude, gods do not have existence, because they are eternal consciousness without matter.
	So prove it.
	You have a burden of proof?
	No, I don't have the burden of proof.
	No, because that's like me saying, it's like you saying, well, Steph, you have to disprove You have to prove that square circles aren't valid, but the very concept disproves itself.
	It's proving a negative, is it not?
	Isn't it proving a negative?
	No, listen, Jeff, you've got to follow this argument.
	There's two categories of things, all right?
	One category is things which could exist, and no rational atheist would deny the potential existence of things that could exist.
	Proving a positive.
	Because they're potential.
	There are, on the other hand, the category of things which logically are self-contradictory and cannot exist.
	Proving a negative.
	Nowhere in the universe will two and two make five.
	Nowhere in the universe will a square circle exist.
	How is that not?
	Because the concepts are self-contradictory.
	How is that not proving a negative?
	The concept disproves itself.
	A square circle is a contradiction in terms and cannot exist.
	The only way you can say that the concept disproves itself is by making a vast amount of assumptions about what I mean by God.
	You're whittling down the concept of God to fit the purpose of having it disprove itself, which makes perfect sense.
	I mean, it makes perfect sense from an argument perspective.
	Jeff, if he's material and tangible, then you have to prove him.
	And if you can't prove him, you can't claim that he exists.
	I can't claim that some super dude, some space alien with vastly advanced technology, but I can't prove such a thing doesn't exist.
	But you can't claim its existence unless you can produce it.
	I'm not whittling down the concept of God.
	I'm saying either the concept is self-contradictory, consciousness without matter, or if you add matter into the mix, then you're making a claim about the existence of something material, in which case you have to prove it.
	Now, if you can't prove the existence of something material, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
	It just means you can't claim that it does.
	I can't claim that it doesn't because it's a potentially real thing and who knows, right?
	But those are the categories.
	So atheism is not a negative.
	It's not the non-existence of God.
	It's something...
	You see, we're just going round and round in circles here.
	If God is consciousness without matter, then atheism doesn't have to lift a finger to disprove the concept because the concept is self-contradictory and disproves itself.
	It's a square circle.
	If it's consciousness with matter, then it's a potentially existing being.
	Atheists can't say that such a being doesn't exist, but those who believe in such a being can't say that it does until they produce it.
	I mean, do you believe that the beings that you believe in, do you believe that they exist materially?
	They.
	You're referring to a deity already.
	What should I, it?
	Do you believe it exists?
	Yes.
	It would be a better description, in my opinion.
	All right.
	And does it exist materially?
	I think it's part of us, yes.
	I think it's part of the universe.
	I think it's dimension to the universe.
	It's not something that can be Disconnected from it.
	I think it's kind of effectively sort of part of the glue of the universe that holds it together.
	That holds it together.
	That's not answering the question.
	Does it exist materially?
	Does it?
	No, not really.
	Does a dimension of the universe exist materially?
	That's like saying, does time exist?
	Well, I guess you could say it exists.
	Does time exist?
	Time doesn't exist, but it can be measured.
	Yeah, I suppose so.
	You know, the sequences of things and their relation to each other, right?
	Life can be measured.
	I think life is part of God, personally.
	Life is part of God?
	Yep.
	I don't quite understand what that means.
	I thought you didn't like the word God.
	Well, I mean, it's a term...
	But these are just words, right?
	There's nothing testable in what you're saying.
	This, to me, is part of the difficulty with atheist perspective.
	It's about trying to dismantle an atheist's No, no, no.
	You said life is part of God.
	I don't even know what that means, because you told me that God can mean a bunch of different things, and you're saying life is part of God.
	I might as well say yin is part of yang.
	I mean, there's no way to parse that out philosophically, that's all.
	I said that many people have a different perspective on God, that my interpretation of God is not the only interpretation of God.
	Yeah, back to...
	Again, what you're saying has no capacity to be examined from a philosophical or rational standpoint.
	Okay.
	I mean, I can clarify my personal opinion on what God is, but like I was saying, I think...
	Well, no, no.
	See, the moment you say God is, God exists, God is real, then it can't be a personal opinion.
	If I say it's my personal opinion that two and two make four universally...
	I'm contradicting myself, right?
	Because I'm saying it is my personal opinion that everywhere and forever, two and two make four.
	Well, no, I'm claiming a universal absolute, not a personal opinion.
	Now, if you have a personal opinion, that's fine.
	I like Pink Floyd, right?
	But that is not a universal truth statement.
	I wouldn't claim that I have a universal truth to make, so I have what I think I understand, and that's as best as I have, so...
	So you're describing preferences or ideas within your head, nothing that exists subjectively outside of your mind, right?
	No, I don't think so.
	I think it exists.
	I think we have the ability to observe it.
	I mean, my opinion, like I said...
	Wait, wait, wait.
	No, see, you keep...
	If you say we have the ability to observe it, and then you go to my opinion, those two things are not the same, right?
	Okay.
	Life exists.
	Life wouldn't exist if it wasn't for something that coheres it.
	But like I said, I don't think that this really has anything to do with atheism.
	Atheism is the negation of a concept.
	And I don't hear where your description resolves that truth.
	It has a burden of proof because of the fact that you have to prove the fact that God doesn't exist.
	I mean, unless you're saying, like I said, unless you're saying, if I... If I sort of condemn God to this box, and I can sort of interrogate God inside this box, and diminish God down to this,
	you know, confinable space, by doing so I can then disprove it through the fact that it's Contends with itself that its mere existence doesn't exist because it's provably impossible, like you're saying.
	But without doing that, if you say, what if God does exist, then you, as an atheist, have a burden of proof because you're claiming that God doesn't exist.
	Well, see, here's where I think we have to draw things to a civilized end, because I've made an argument for three categories and different categories of existence, and you're basically just saying exactly the same thing as when we've started.
	So I think I'm going to have to move on to the next caller.
	I mean, if you want, I've got this argument laid out more in the free book called Against the Gods?
	Actually, I think there's only one, which is at freedomainradio.com.
	It is, of course, free.
	You might want to check out that book.
	But yeah, I get when Unfortunately, we're throwing words across the canyon that doesn't seem to have any catcher's mitts in it.
	But I do appreciate the call.
	It's always invigorating and interesting to talk about these issues.
	And feel free to call back in if you want to take a plow through the book and tell me, you know, give it the highlight where you think I've gone wrong.
	I think that would be greatly appreciated.
	I know it would be.
	So thanks, Jeff.
	I really appreciate the conversation, but I do have to get to the next call.
	Thanks.
	Bye.
	Bye.
	All right.
	Up next is Mario.
	Mario rolled in and his question is...
	Mario did what?
	Mario wrote it.
	Did he roll in?
	I think that's Super Mario.
	He rolled in, gripping his plumbing shirt and a whole lot of stars.
	My grandson thinks I wrote Super Mario Brothers.
	Alright, well Mario wrote in with, the concept of a solution is tied to the concept of problem definition.
	If the problem cannot be clearly defined, the concept of a solution is meaningless.
	Unless you know what the problem is, how do you know you have solved it or even if there is a solution?
	Can there be a solution as well as costs and benefits associated with that solution?
	Alright, you win the most abstract topic of the night, and after Jeff, that's quite something.
	I probably need a couple of minutes to recover from Mr.
	Jeff.
	Boy, talk about entanglement.
	Well, yeah, that's the challenge, right?
	Yeah, it is.
	God can be anything to anyone, and therefore, whatever you put definition in, they just say, oh, it's not that.
	Oh, did you shoot?
	And that's not there.
	No, it's not there.
	No, it's not that.
	No, it's not that.
	It's okay.
	Well, you just keep moving, and I'll get to the next quarter.
	Yeah, right, right.
	Yeah.
	All right, so you're saying, can there be a solution without a definition of the problem?
	Well, two things.
	I'm responding to your podcast entitled, There Are No Solutions.
	And I noticed that four or five podcasts later, you talked about the solution to climate change.
	And I'm talking, what didn't you just say, there are no solutions?
	So, there's really very little in your podcast about there are no solutions that I disagree with.
	What I'm concerned with is I know, for example, in your conversation with Peter Joseph way back, one of the things that you kept pointing out is that he kept inventing new words for old ideas, and he used old words for new ideas.
	And, you know, to your credit, you kept Pressing him on that.
	I think you referred to one time calling it a word salad.
	Which I think I agree.
	I'm always concerned when people use a lot of lingo without stopping to step people through it.
	That's why I'm a big one for a critique of Socrates, or a praise of Socrates, that he tried to speak in the language of the common people, and he did not use epistemology and metaphysics and all that sort of stuff.
	And that's what I've always, I mean, I'll use them occasionally, but sort of try and Strive for that.
	You can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.
	It's always been something that I've been concerned about.
	I think your categorical statement that there are no solutions doesn't make sense to me.
	As I mentioned to Michael, I'm a retired scientist, and we dealt with solutions all the time.
	Yeah, alcohol is a solution.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	Sorry.
	Well, actually, it can be.
	If you define...
	I know, I know.
	If your problem is you are in too much pain, yeah, alcohol can be a solution.
	But there are, I think, two things about that statement.
	One is that you can't talk about solutions unless you can define the problem.
	And number two is, I don't think solutions and the concept of cost-benefit are mutually exclusive.
	I think they're both.
	There are solutions with cost-benefits.
	Or, yeah, costs and benefits, I should say.
	So I can't agree with you that there are no solutions.
	That doesn't make sense to me.
	Well, I wasn't talking about everything in life.
	I was really particularly talking about politics.
	And I was also in particular talking about political economy, which is why the examples that I provided were really around the welfare state and stuff like that.
	So, the idea that there's a solution which doesn't involve a cost in economics is false.
	I mean, everything is a trade-off.
	Everything you do is everything else you're not doing.
	You know.
	I mean, I'm sure you know all that stuff.
	So the use of the word, there are no solutions, I didn't mean there's no solutions to the problem two and two, what a two and two make, right?
	Or do gases expand when heated or whatever, right?
	There are solutions.
	There are answers to those, right?
	So there are solutions to math problems.
	There are solutions to scientific problems and so on.
	But with regards to resource allocation, political economy, there is nothing that is just going to go and solve a problem.
	Everything has its costs and has its benefits.
	And that is what's important to remember.
	Anyone who tries to sell you.
	So when I was talking about global warming, there is a solution to global warming, whether it's true that this cloud whitening or Whether it's diminishing the power of the state or all the other things that I was talking about.
	They will solve the problem of global warming, but all of them have costs and benefits.
	Like, for instance, $323 billion has been spent since the 1980s to combat global warming, causing a damage to the world economy of approximately $7 trillion.
	And if shrinking the size and power of the state is the answer to global warming or climate change, That's going to be very costly to a lot of people who are making a lot of money from fear-mongering this particular approach.
	Well, I think that's where I have the problem.
	And again, I'm coming from a very, in some people's opinion, a very narrow-minded approach.
	But the problem with global warming, I don't think the problem has been defined.
	And there are those that...
	Well, global warming is primarily a human cause, and there are others that say, no, it's not a human cause, it's a cycling thing, sunspots and all that.
	But we can't talk about a solution to global warming if nobody can even define the problem.
	Well, but there's a reason for that, right?
	I mean, there's a reason why the problem is not defined in a way that's very rigorous.
	And that's because there's lots of arguments that say that the problem that global warming is supposed to solve is Funding for people who like to study and talk about global warming, right?
	So it's solving that problem very nicely, and this is why the empirical disproofs of the climate models and the CO2 amplifications and all of that just doesn't matter, because it's still filling its purpose of scaring people into handing over money and power to politicians, scientists, and environmental activists and And all the people who like to chest-thump their self-righteous pillows, it's doing that nicely.
	So anything which tends to last, if it doesn't fulfill its stated agenda, is simply fulfilling an unstated agenda.
	Yeah, and I agree.
	And I think I can make the same statement about the whole...
	I often, when I listen to atheists, like the previous caller, who tried to use the avenue of reason and logic and rationality, but my questions are more of motive and opportunity and ability.
	I don't question people's reason because people can come up with reasons for all sorts of things.
	I tend to question their motive.
	And when you can get that clarity, a lot of things make sense.
	And I think what you just said addresses motive.
	Right.
	Right.
	And I didn't want to get into the question of why his belief system was the way it was, because people have a tough time examining their own belief systems for psychological causes if they think their belief systems are true.
	Like if somebody said to me, what's your psychological motive for believing that the Earth is a sphere?
	I'd be like, the fact that it is a sphere would be one of the motives which would not be specifically psychological.
	Or, you know, if people do believe in some particular deity and you say, well, what's your psychological reason for believing in that deity?
	Well, they'd say, well, no, it is, right?
	It's real.
	There's no psychological reason for two and two make four.
	And so because he was...
	Because Jeff was...
	Because Jeff was very convinced of his belief system, there was no point asking him for motive, if that makes sense.
	Well, I don't know.
	I would be interested in his motive.
	There's a fellow, for example, who has a podcast.
	He calls himself the Thinking Christian.
	And I once made the suggestion that that was an oxymoron, and particularly the way he's using thinking.
	But when I look at his background, You know, his revenue comes from donations from his flock.
	His prestige and his status and his community comes from his position as an apologist.
	And I'm more thinking that it's more about that than anything else.
	Yeah, it certainly could be.
	I remember seeing a presentation once By a fellow who ran a charity that helped to transition priests who had lost their faith out of their profession.
	Because there have been a lot of priests who over the time of their time in their priesthood...
	The clergy project, right?
	Yeah, and it's a very difficult thing.
	There's a great...
	John Irving, I'm not a huge fan of his novels, but his allegory and images are fantastic.
	He once talked about a man walking through a field with the watery bullseye of a Flashlight, which when you think about it, it's actually a beautiful way.
	And he said that there was a priest, something about the lilies was the name of the book, something from that song.
	And it was a priest who'd lost his faith.
	And he said his face was like a stink insect climbing up the tiles of a bathroom with this water running down.
	It just eventually lost its footing and fell.
	And it's tough, you know, it's tough.
	I'm sure that the same thing is true the other way too.
	People who have reputations for atheism, atheists do sometimes become theists.
	And I think it's in a way easier to go the other way because you have a sort of pre-baked audience and perhaps even donations for that.
	But to go from a priest who's lost his or her faith, it's a great challenge.
	And there are some very material motives.
	And also there's not just material motives, but, you know, you think of all the people you've married.
	Yeah.
	And what are they going to think of their marriages?
	Or the people you've buried?
	Or the people you've baptized?
	Or they're going to say, well, was he believing or not when he did it?
	I mean, there's a great deal of weighty responsibility that I think these people feel, priests feel, for the flock.
	See, I went in and out of a very fundamentalist Christian sect called the Church of the Nazarene and I think I was 50 when I was converted and you know that that's a whole story in itself and after about seven years of study you know I learned Hebrew and learned Greek and I could read the Bible and I had Bible studies and all that that that actually worked In
	reverse, I began to see a lot of dots that just did not connect.
	And by the time I was 57, I'm 60 now.
	By the time I was 57, I thought, you know, I can't be honest and believe this stuff at the same time.
	My honesty compelled me to say, I can't buy this.
	And, you know, so at some point in my life I had to choose religion or honesty and I chose honesty.
	But I can see how tough that can be on somebody like the pastor, you know, who I became friends with.
	You know, how tough that would be on him to do something like that.
	I mean, I didn't have that much to lose.
	I lost, you know, a few friends.
	I lost A community, which I think was really artificial anyway.
	Yeah, but something like a pastor.
	I just...
	There's a low-budget movie I saw once years ago.
	I think it's called The Attack of the 50-Foot Woman.
	And there was a scene in a bar there, and this old man comes walking in, and these two fellows were looking at him, and He said, do you know that guy?
	He said, oh yeah, he's a miner.
	He's been mining for like 40 years, mining for gold.
	And the guy said, well, if he's been mining for gold for 40 years and he hasn't gotten any?
	He said, that's right.
	Why didn't he quit?
	And he said, well, because if he quit, he would have to admit he wasted 40 years of his life.
	And he thinks, well, the odds of every next pan have got to be going up.
	Yes, right.
	In other words, it's more acceptable to believe that maybe the next one is going to be it than to admit that 40 years of his life was spent in illusion.
	I think a lot of these...
	Clergy I think is it's they're in that position and I think that's why it's so tough But also, I mean the the faith of most religions Accepts and allows for doubt at least the wiser religions allow for doubt because it gives them the flexibility if people start to doubt they say well That's part of the process, you know, well, you know it depends because Christianity has such a huge range.
	It's a spectrum.
	In Romans 14, for example, Paul says, he who doubts is damned.
	It's like verse 9 in that chapter, if you wanted to look it up.
	So there are those that say, no, you can't have doubt.
	Doubt is something that the devil does.
	But then there's another sect of denomination that says, yeah, doubt's natural.
	You can doubt.
	You know, it's okay.
	You know, God forgives you for all that.
	So, it depends on what sect you go to.
	No, that's true.
	I mean, that's the other salad bar of whatever you want to believe, right?
	As I said before, the religions that survive the most often become at least those that don't conquer by the sword.
	But the religions that try to conquer by the word, as Christianity has to some degree, are Throughout his history, they have to have enough to appeal to all personality types, which is why people say, well, the Bible is self-contradictory.
	It's like, no, because it's designed to be cherry-picked by each personality type to fit its own innate preferences.
	Yeah, Ayn Rand, I think, referred to them as the mystics of the mind, right?
	And, yeah, you're right.
	That's why I spent five years learning Hebrew, and the reason I did was I thought, you know, the English version It's so full of inconsistencies, I thought, that couldn't possibly exist in the Hebrew version.
	So when I was able to actually read the Hebrew version, it was just as bad.
	But you're right, what occurred to me is the Bible is the Rorschach test.
	It's a literal Rorschach.
	Anybody can see in it what you want to see.
	Well, and of course, the Bible is preselected and presented to particular groups.
	There are not...
	I don't know the number of Christians who have read the entire Bible.
	No, that's one of the reasons.
	I had a list of items that I call observations, and I was amazed at how little Christians read their Bible.
	And I found that most atheists actually know the Bible better.
	Oh, yeah, that was one of Winston Churchill's sons, Randolph Churchill.
	He had a terrible relationship with his father, but he did say, when he was at war, I think, and he read the whole Bible because there's a lot of hurry up and wait in the military.
	And he just was rushing around saying, can you believe what's in this thing?
	Are you kidding me?
	Whereas, of course, most people, they don't read it cover to cover.
	They, you know, RYFM, right?
	They don't read it cover to cover.
	What they do is...
	You know, it's pre-selected and prepared and delivered to them by the priest or by the storyteller or by the book or by the myth or whatever, right?
	The parables are all, you know, and the priests know how the audience, right?
	If they're full of gentle people, they'll get lots of gentle stories.
	And if they're not, then they'll get different kinds of stories.
	But the idea that you'd sit there and read through it all yourself is, for most people, kind of incomprehensible.
	And that's why I go back to the issue of motivation.
	I mean, a pastor, you know, let's take somebody like Rick Warren, you know, who wrote the 40 Days of Purpose, or no, The Purpose Driven Life.
	Purpose Driven Life, I think.
	If you read that book.
	I thought it was the gel-driven dust jacket, but apparently I was incorrect, but go ahead.
	Yeah, but if you read that book, I really had to force myself to go through, but I talk about just patting you on the back and reassuring you of How important you are and how much you matter to the world.
	To me, that's motivation.
	It's not reason.
	That's why I keep saying a pastor who is successful is motivated by giving his flock what they're willing to pay for.
	When you were mentioning the Bible, I wonder how many people even realize that Thomas Jefferson, for example, referred to the book of the Revelation as the raving of a madman.
	Do you remember that?
	Yeah, it's a drug trip, absolutely.
	It makes heavy metal look like a documentary on ants.
	Yeah, and it's...
	But anyway, that's a long ways for my solutions, but I understand what you were proposing that there are a lot of people that in the domain of politics, you know, believe in this illusion that there's this ideal solution where no one has to pay anything, you know, and I understand that.
	But I think in general, the term of that there are no solutions, That's not true as a categorical statement.
	It's true with a caveat.
	Yes, I think that's certainly valid.
	There are no solutions in the realm of political economy in particular.
	But yeah, I mean, there are certainly solutions to math problems and so on.
	I certainly will accept that.
	Listen, I mean, great chat.
	I'm just running a little low on energy.
	I had a pretty early morning this morning.
	Yeah, listen, great chat.
	Feel free to call in any time.
	A real pleasure.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Keep up the good work.
	I enjoy your programs.
	I plan to continue to support your work.
	Well, thank you very much.
	I appreciate that.
	And it's your support, my friend, that is why we're doing and able to do what we're doing.
	So thank you.
	Thank you so much.
	Thank you to all the supporters, those of you who donate and who share and share.
	I really, really appreciate it if you can share the videos, if you can go to freedomainradio.com slash donate to help us out in this dry and dusty February of dissolved fiat currency.
	I would really appreciate that.
	You have, I guess, two days after this come out to do it.
	So freedomainradio.com slash donate.
	Thank you so much.

▲