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Jan. 25, 2015 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:40:55

2893 The Economics of Human Expertise - Saturday Call In Show - January 24th, 2015

Stefan Molyneux discusses the death of Saudi Arabian King Abdullah and the reaction of world leaders. Questions Include: How would it be possible for our species to share geographical territory without the use of, or threat of the use of, force? How can I find a “unicorn” – otherwise known as an ideal romantic partner? In a recent video about Christians and Marxists, I was offended by the connection made between "atheist community" and "leftist". Why is it important to group people by a common trait? I'm starting a business in the tech field - how do you get and keep customers?

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	Good evening, everybody.
	I hope you're doing well.
	So, this is a Saturday night show, just before we jump in and listen to the listeners, which I believe is how they got their name.
	Let us take a moment to think of the dead Saudi Arabian King Abdullah.
	He passed away Friday due to complications from a lung infection, which I think means that he got a small slice of either empathy or ethics lodged in his trachea, and it proved allergic to him.
	Boy, if you ever want to see real power politics at work, you listen to the series of gushing, fawning fanboy tributes from American leaders.
	In his official statement, President Obama praised King Abdullah's enduring contribution to the search for peace in the Middle East.
	Because, you know, that's...
	I mean, that's all sorted and solved.
	Secretary of State John Kerry called him a man of wisdom and vision.
	Vice President Biden announced he'd lead the American delegation to Saudi Arabia to mourn the king in person.
	Flags all around the Western world were at half-mast.
	I mean, this guy, he has a truly repulsive human rights record.
	How much has he been valuable or useful in regional security?
	It's just so hideous.
	King Abdul is going to be replaced by his half-brother Salman, who has vowed to continue the correct policy of the late king.
	So if you happen to be, say, a woman in Saudi Arabia, a religious minority, a political dissident, which in Western terms would be somebody who thinks for themselves, it's not good news.
	Of course, as you know, I'm sure, Saudi Arabia is...
	An absolute totalitarian dictatorship monarchy, you cannot oppose the ruling family in any way, shape, or form.
	If you're mad enough to call for limited government or, God help you, religious pluralism, well, you get long-ass prison sentences and state-inflicted violence.
	A couple of weeks ago, There was a Saudi blogger named Raouf Badawi, and he dared to defend atheism.
	Didn't say he was an atheist, but dared to defend atheism.
	His punishment, 1,000 lashes and 10 years in jail.
	I don't imagine Saudi jails would be classified under the club-fed approach that some minimum security facilities have in the West.
	And they did flog him 50 times and then they said, well, you know, we're going to need to wait for your wounds to heal before we continue the punishment.
	And being a woman in Saudi Arabia?
	So they have this guardianship system.
	And so women have to seek male permission to travel, to leave the house, to work.
	And of course, as I'm sure you're aware, they're not allowed to drive.
	And it's not like they're just the underprivileged or underclass women are attacked.
	King Abdullah with his 13 wives and 15 daughters, four of his 15 daughters have lived under house arrest for now 13 years because they opposed in public the kingdom's policies towards women.
	Two of his daughters have said that they're running low on food.
	I mean, this is a hideous window to pre-medieval dictatorship people.
	These are the vile jab-of-the-hut, oil-drenched toads that your leaders genuflect before, kiss the hem of their garment and the rings on their finger.
	It is horrendous.
	And the new King Salman...
	79 years old, alleged to be suffering from dementia.
	Well, when he dies, I'm sure he will be credited with curing cancer, walking on water, altering the orbit of the planet to fix global warming, and bringing the dead back to life.
	But the reality is, I mean, you want to see the moral nature of your leaders, just look at who they praise.
	The men are known.
	By the company that they keep.
	Now, this is not particular to Obama.
	I mean, Bush was holding hands with one of these vile creatures as well.
	Now, 15 of the 1911 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia.
	And the king in charge of the country is a wise elder statesman.
	That is truly just amazing.
	You know, I try not to be overly cynical, but my God, oh planet, do you ever make it hard to get out of bed every morning sometimes looking at how the world works.
	And this bootlicking of tyrants is a vileness not really seen since FDR and Churchill licked the boot of Stalin.
	But at least then they had the incentive of having Stalin...
	Open up the Eastern Front against Hitler.
	As Churchill said, were Hitler to invade hell itself, I'm sure I could find something nice to say about the devil.
	But, you know, when you go to vote, when you see these teleprompter speeches, when you see these guys joke and laugh and sing songs, this is the hierarchy of power that they serve.
	These are the devils whose boots they lick.
	And to be ruled by such tiny, tiny people is really the greatest humiliation of living in a democracy.
	They're even smaller than the mob itself.
	So thanks, I just wanted to mention that, get you up to date on the latest in world politics.
	But Mike, who do we have up first?
	Alright, up first today is Brian.
	Brian wrote in and said, given that we are a social species that lives and evolved in cooperative societies, defining society as a quote-unquote group of people who are involved in persistent interpersonal relationships or a large societal group sharing the same geographical or social territory, how would it be possible for our species to share a geographical or social territory without the use of, or threat of the use of, force?
	I'm not sure I understand the question.
	Are you saying, how is it possible for me, if I build a house, how is it possible for me to keep other people out of my house without the threat of force?
	Yeah, well, that's pretty much exactly what I'm thinking, because if we're looking at, say, self-defense, and you're saying to somebody, if you enter my property, then I will defend my property with force, then that is a threat of use of force.
	So how is it possible to set up a society where we interact and cooperate with each other, Without a threat of the use of force.
	Well, I mean, do you think that a woman can use self-defense if she's about to be raped?
	Well, of course I do.
	And I think that, again, would be a threat of the use of force.
	If you are threatening to rape me, I will use force against you.
	Okay, so there's nothing wrong.
	I don't know why.
	What's the problem with the use of force, then?
	The woman's defending her property called the vagina.
	I'm defending my property called my house.
	I don't see what the big distinction is.
	I totally agree.
	I don't think there's any problem with the use of force.
	Let me just clarify myself here because I don't want to get this into an argument when I'm trying to get one up.
	I like a lot of the stuff you say, I agree with a lot of the stuff you say, And eventually, maybe going down to the likes of taxation, you always say you're using force to take my taxes.
	And the use of force is immoral.
	Now, what I'm saying is fundamentally...
	No, no, no, no, no.
	I've never said the use of force is immoral.
	Okay.
	When did I ever say the use of force is immoral?
	I'll take it back.
	What I'm saying is that taxation is the use of force, which you do not agree with.
	Is that correct?
	Taxation is the initiation of force.
	It's kind of a difference, right?
	Well, it's not really because defending my property is the initiation of force, so is that...
	No, no, no.
	Defending a property is not the initiation of force.
	Because people are going to use force to get to your property, right?
	Well, they don't have to use force.
	They could simply walk into my garden and lift something and take it.
	And I don't want them to take it.
	They could simply walk into my front garden and see a nice monument or statue or whatever and say, I want that for myself and take it.
	And I would say, well, you know what?
	I'm not going to let you take that.
	And then I would initiate force to stop them taking that.
	Well, no.
	They're initiating force by stealing from you.
	Because they're removing your choice about your allocation of resources.
	So, if I've spent five months carving that statue and someone comes along and steals it, then they've just made me their involuntary slave for five months.
	And whether they do that for the time that I'm making the statue, like they kidnapped me and forced me to make the statue, Ethics are universal, which means they're independent of time.
	So if somebody enslaves me and makes me create a statue for five months, that's immoral.
	But if somebody allows me, puts me, quote, under house arrest and takes my statue, then they have retroactively enslaved me for those five months that it took for me to create the statue.
	No, I think there's a misdefinition of slavery here.
	Slavery is when you incarcerate somebody and force them to do something.
	Nobody incarcerated you and forced you to make that statue.
	You made that statue from your own free will, and then somebody liked it and decided they were going to take it from you.
	That is not slavery.
	That's not even close to slavery.
	I don't see how that is.
	No, it is.
	No, no.
	I've got to disagree with you.
	It doesn't mean I'm right.
	But it is, because they have now appropriated five months of your time against your will.
	Now, whether they do that...
	Okay, you've obviously got a lot to say, because I'm not even able to get a sentence out before you interrupt me, so why don't you make your case, and then I'll respond, and we'll try and do this in a more back-and-forth manner.
	No, no, I apologize.
	I apologize.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So...
	The slavery doesn't matter.
	It doesn't matter your location.
	It doesn't matter if you're in a palace.
	It doesn't matter if you're in a field.
	I mean obviously it matters in terms of your comfort level.
	But it doesn't matter where you are.
	And it also doesn't matter when you are.
	So if I work for five months and somebody against my will appropriates that labor, appropriates the products of that labor, Then they have simply turned me into a retroactive slave.
	They have taken five months worth of my life from me without my say-so, without my agreement, without my permission.
	Now, if somebody came to my house and they said, Steph, I'm going to kidnap you for five months and I'm going to make you make a statue.
	I would be justified in using force to prevent that person from kidnapping me, right?
	Yeah, but that's totally different from, I mean, I don't agree that's even a close analogy.
	Okay, but you can't just tell me that something is not right or incorrect or totally different.
	You have to make the case.
	Oh, well, the last time I did, you said I was speaking over you, so if I can reply now, I'll reply without talking over you.
	I didn't want to talk over you.
	Well, no, but there's no point telling me you just disagree with me without telling me why.
	I know.
	I'm saying, the last time I said, you said, do not speak over me, you said you were making your case.
	I'm going to disagree with that, and if I'm allowed to speak...
	Yes, but if you interrupt me when I'm making my case to simply tell me that you disagree with me without telling me why, then you're interrupting me for no purpose.
	You ask me if I agree, I say no, and I will tell you why I don't agree.
	If you would like, I was waiting until you'd finish your case.
	If not, I'll be happy now to say...
	Oh no, if you have a reason to disagree now, then I'll be quiet and you go ahead.
	I disagree because slavery, by definition, is the forced incarceration of somebody.
	At any point, when you make somebody a slave, they do not have the ability to leave.
	But you, when you're doing your...
	So we're talking about maybe more fraud or...
	Actually, we've got a very good word for it.
	It's called theft.
	And theft and slavery are not the same thing.
	So if we're going to take somebody's production and take it and steal it from them, it's called theft.
	It's not called slavery.
	You're putting forward a tautology, though.
	And a tautology is when you've simply defined something in a circular manner.
	So you're saying, okay, no, go ahead.
	I won't make my case.
	You go ahead and finish.
	It's not a tautology.
	I'm saying slavery is forced incarceration of somebody and then you're forcing, you're incarcerating them and forcing them to do what they want to do.
	That is absolutely different from somebody working on something and then taking it from them.
	One is slavery because you've incarcerated them and you've forced them to produce something.
	The other is they've produced something from their own free will And then you have stolen it from them.
	One is slavery, the other is theft.
	Okay.
	Are you done that part?
	I haven't done it, sorry.
	Okay.
	So the reason that it's a tautology is I'm saying that theft is a form of violence.
	Right?
	In that you are taking someone's time against their will.
	And that's analogous to slavery.
	It's a form of enslavement.
	It's not directly the same as putting a gun to someone's head and making them work for you directly, but the effect is the same, in that your time gets taken from you against your will and without your permission.
	The produce of your time, not your time, but the produce of your time gets taken.
	I don't understand what the difference is.
	Well, for one, if I enslave somebody and I incarcerate them and they have to do whatever I want them to do, whenever I want to do it, they're enslaved to me.
	If somebody works for something, does something, And then I steal the products of that, then it's certainly not.
	Because, okay, I mean, if you could ask an African enslaved, an American African who was enslaved, would they rather have had five months working in the cotton fields, getting whipped and beaten and slashed and abused, or would you rather have even made something and somebody took it from them?
	I'm pretty sure they would see the difference.
	Of course they would.
	Just because I say that something is a form of enslavement doesn't mean that all forms of enslavement are the same.
	That's like saying all forms of murder are the same.
	First degree, second degree, involuntary manslaughter, whatever, negligence, homicide.
	And you say, well, somebody who was hit by a car accidentally and compare that to somebody who plotted to kill someone, they're not the same thing.
	It's like, well, sure, but they're still under the category of murder.
	Well, they're not.
	They're under the category of culpable homicide or first-degree murder or second-degree murder.
	You've just actually categorized the difference.
	Alright, let's just say first-degree murder and second-degree murder.
	I agree that they're both murder.
	They're not the same, though.
	So you've got first-degree slavery, which is direct enslavement, and secondary slavery, which is taking the fruits of someone's labor against their will.
	I mean...
	So...
	Right.
	And I can understand where...
	I mean, I still do not agree that you could possibly classify that as slavery.
	I mean, we define that as theft.
	And there is a very clear distinction.
	Now, you're saying that you don't agree there's a distinction between theft and slavery, which is fair enough.
	But, however, there still is a use or a threat of a use of force within society.
	Well, let me put it to you this way.
	A slave...
	Can be raped by her master, right?
	Well, I mean, I do agree with that.
	Yes, yes.
	No, no, no.
	I mean, but legally, I would assume, right?
	As far as I don't know much about the legality of slavery.
	But a slave can be raped by the master because the master owns the slave, right?
	It's the master's utility, right?
	Yeah, a slave could have been raped.
	A slave is a form of livestock, right?
	Anyway, so...
	But if a man rapes a woman, he is, to all intents and purposes, her slave during the rape.
	He's forcing her to do something against her will she violently disagrees with and may fight to the death to prevent or whatever, right?
	But he is enslaving her in terms of he's overpowering her will and her choice.
	Using his will or choice.
	So again, we're going to have to kind of argue the difference between a slave and a victim.
	But I mean, to be honest, so what I was talking about was the use of force or the threat of the use of force.
	So you're agreeing that it's okay to have the threat of the use of force within society and the fact that one will defend themselves.
	And it's okay to threaten the use of force and self-defense.
	And you're agreeing with that?
	Yeah, of course.
	I mean, you can't have self-defense if you can't use force.
	There's no such thing as self-defense unless you use force.
	Excellent.
	Okay, so where are we going?
	What we're really talking about is society here.
	And we're talking about, because I know you don't, and I don't want to misquote you here, but I have watched videos where you say there's no such thing as society, which I totally disagree with.
	But the point we're getting at is that when we start forming societies together, Then how do we go on to make the society the best it can be for the people?
	And what's the criteria by which we measure which is the best society?
	Let's just say that we accept society for the moment.
	Society is a product like an iPhone.
	So to me you're sort of saying, well, if we decide that we want to talk to each other, Anywhere in the world without using wires, how do we get the very best phone into the hands of the most people at the best price?
	No, no, no.
	Nobody does that in particular.
	It's the aggregation of voluntary choices that produces the social networks that I think you would call a society, but there's no central how do we get that to happen.
	It's just people want this particular feature, they want that particular size, they want this kind of battery life, they want this kind of screen, they want whatever, right?
	And so, it's like saying, what's the optimum weight and strength of a cell phone?
	Well, there is no such thing.
	Because some people will buy rugged cell phones that you can drop from a building and they'll bounce and work.
	And other people don't want things that heavy and expensive and are willing to replace screens or whatever or buy new cell phones if they break or crack the screen and so on, right?
	So there is no one place where we say, how do we decide where all of this occurs?
	That's a sort of statist mentality or maybe it's a religious mentality.
	But it's nothing that anyone figures out in particular and that imposes.
	It's simply the aggregation of everyone's choices in a situation.
	No, no, a half agree with what we are saying there, because, like I said, I'll just clarify, certainly not a religious, because I'm probably described as an anti-theist, but as far as the state goes, Ben, I do support the state.
	Now, and this is basically what I was getting to, because obviously we can't actually discuss the state— Wait, wait, hang on, sorry, sorry to interrupt.
	You support the state?
	No, I— Yeah, I'm happy to live in a...
	Great, okay.
	Now let's maybe just give a...
	Well, can I have 20 seconds here?
	Sorry to interrupt, but the reason that I'm asking that is you seem very concerned about violence.
	And you seem very concerned about people using violence to protect their property.
	So it would seem to me that you would be more of a radical pacifist if you would be questioning even people's right to use violence in the defense of their property.
	And so if you seem to be, at least for me, approaching it from a radical pacifist standpoint, it seems surprising to me that then you would...
	Like, you're questioning whether someone has the right to use violence to defend their property, but you're advocating for a centralized, coercive institution that has the right to initiate force pretty much at will.
	I just find that kind of confusing.
	No, I am not.
	I utterly agree with somebody's right to defend their property.
	I utterly agree with the use of force.
	And being that I was coming from a position that you disagree with the use of force, and I'm coming from a position that obviously you're a You believe in anarchy.
	You don't believe in the state.
	You don't believe in publicly funded education, public health care.
	You do not believe in these things.
	We can't even go on to that.
	You've got to be precise if you're going to characterize things.
	I mean, it's not like I don't believe in them like I close my eyes and put my hands in my ears and say, la la la la.
	I reject the initiation of the use of force.
	And therefore, I find as immoral all of the products of the initiation of the use of force.
	In the same way that goods produced by slave labor...
	I would not buy, right?
	I mean, so it's not that I just, you know, I just believe in these things.
	That's sort of an epistemological argument.
	That the initiation force is immoral, I think I've established pretty clearly, at least to my satisfaction in my variety of books and podcasts.
	And therefore, as a result, these things are immoral.
	But I just sort of want to be precise.
	It's not the fruit of the tree that I object to.
	It's the trunk.
	That's why when I was actually wanting to start discussing The foundation of the use of force and where you agree it extends to, that obviously has to be discussed before you can go any further.
	And that was why I started with that, but fundamentally we're really talking about how we interact and cooperate as a society and whether or not if we come together on things like taxation that actually are the use of force Wait, sorry, do you think that taxation is not the use of force?
	Again, it depends on how you define force.
	In my case, certainly not, I'm more than happy to contribute to society where I reap the benefits of taxation, and I think it would be immoral to live in a society that doesn't protect the weaker members of society.
	So it's not slavery if the slave likes it?
	Well, it's not slavery at all because I'm...
	No, no, no.
	Slavery is not slavery if the slave is happy to do it.
	Slavery is not slavery if the person isn't enslaved, if they're not incarcerated, if they've got the ability to leave.
	I can leave my society at any point.
	I've got nobody pointing out to my head and saying, you can't leave.
	No, absolutely.
	No, you're wrong about that.
	They do.
	Well, there's no...
	I live in Scotland where there actually isn't no firearms.
	The police don't even have firearms.
	There isn't anybody pointing a gun at my head.
	I can leave Scotland tomorrow if I want.
	I do not have a gun at my head.
	So I'm certainly not enslaved to this society.
	Tomorrow, if I want, I can go to anywhere within the European Union, for example, and live anywhere.
	Excellent.
	Fantastic.
	And then you don't have to pay taxes wherever you go, right?
	Well, it depends on whether or not.
	I mean, I could go and live off the grid.
	It depends on whether or not.
	Do you know if there's a European Union nation that doesn't impose taxes on its citizens?
	Well, there's plenty of places in Europe you could go live without paying taxation.
	You could go live, it's called, off the grid.
	I mean, in America right now, it's called...
	Oh, so if you live in hiding and fear of arrest, then that's called being free.
	No, that's a misrepresentation.
	It's not hiding.
	If you go and look at, was it Louis Theroux who did a documentary on Almost Heaven where these people live quite happily, openly.
	They don't pay taxation.
	They don't have a driver's license.
	They live in the middle of America, one of the worst countries on the planet for this.
	And they live off the grid and don't pay any taxation.
	Wait, they live off the grid but there was a documentary about them?
	Well, yeah, there was Luther.
	I think they might want to go a little further off the grid than that.
	But they could legally be arrested at any time.
	The government may have not done that.
	For whatever reason, I don't know.
	But that's not the same as being free.
	That's like saying that the slaves who were going through the Underground Railroad on the way to Canada or on the way to somewhere where they could be more free, that they're free because they're not currently being whipped by a slave master.
	I don't think that we would say that because the only reason they're in the Underground Railroad It's because they're trying to escape from slavery.
	It's because there is slavery.
	So their choices are fully conditioned by the fact that they're slavery.
	And these people who live off the grid and choose that kind of lifestyle, all of those decisions are made because there is taxation.
	They're not free from taxation.
	They're living directly in the shadow of taxation.
	And their choices are fundamentally driven by the reality of taxation and regulation.
	Well, actually, that's not true because I could just stop working and then I could go into welfare and not pay any taxation.
	So I do have the ability to avoid taxation if that's what it comes down to.
	You have the ability to avoid taxation.
	Is there no value added tax or consumption tax or tax on gasoline or tax on your rent in an apartment or house?
	They're not required to pay property taxes on that?
	Come on, man.
	But here's the thing.
	I'm happy to pay taxis.
	So what do you say?
	Let's for example say that...
	Then you should pay taxes in a free society.
	But so what?
	The fact that you want to buy a Lexus, In no way commands you or gives you the right to force me to buy a Lexus, God's sake.
	If you want to do it, if you want to pay taxes, if you want to be owned, if you want to have your children run into debt through national debts, if you want to have your currency deflated, if you want to be subject to wars, if you want to have the fruits of your labor turned into machineries of murder and sold around the world, that is your choice.
	But you do not have the right to impose that choice upon anyone else.
	And nobody is.
	If you want to move to Somalia tomorrow and not pay any taxes, you can go, you can take your family, take your children with you, and go live in the tax-free, utopia, anarchist society of Somalia.
	I mean, we're not getting anywhere by arguing these absolutely ridiculous extremes.
	We're talking about...
	I'm sorry, absolutely ridiculous extremes?
	I'm not sure.
	So you're saying that If people are willing to leave their families, their societies, their friends, their business networks, their careers, and go and live in a desert with people who don't speak the language, they don't have a cultural history and so on,
	that if their choice is to flee and leave most of their property behind, their friends, their contacts, business relationships, family, bank accounts, money, you name it, that if people are free to flee and go and live in a fucking desert, That that's exactly the same as living in a free society.
	Well, I mean, but don't you support that?
	I mean, this is getting into this total one-upmanship.
	I mean, you support the aloofing.
	You support turning your back on people.
	How could you hang with somebody who wants to shoot you?
	I mean, you did a big speech in that.
	Now, I don't want to get this into that.
	That's a misquote.
	No, that's a misquote.
	Well, it's not a misquote because I watched the video.
	It is an absolute misquote and a complete mischaracterization.
	And this is the kind of sloppy thinking that's been on display during our entire conversation.
	I did not say they want to shoot you.
	I said don't hang with people who support the use of force against you.
	Not that they want to pull the trigger directly, but they're quite content to have other people do it.
	Right, but what I'm saying is that you do support the ostracizing yourself.
	You gave a big rant there about why would you ostracize yourself?
	Why would you leave?
	And then in the very next breath, you were saying, oh, actually, I did actually say that anybody who supports you supports against me.
	I want to leave.
	Oh, my God, man.
	Do you have any?
	Oh, my God.
	I'm trying to figure out where your brain is.
	I'm trying to track down your brain cells in your head.
	So, if I choose not to associate with statists, Am I forcing them to leave their homes and go to fucking Somalia?
	No, but if you want to go and live in a society...
	Listen, if I choose not to date a woman, is that the same as me raping her?
	This is an absolutely ridiculous analogy.
	No, this is exactly what you're saying.
	You're saying that it's me ostracizing status.
	It's exactly the same as people being driven to go and live in Somalia.
	So you pulled me up for talking over you and now you're going to talk over me.
	Can I make my point?
	I'd like it if you...
	Right, that's brilliant.
	Thank you very much.
	Right, so, in this society we have many people who support the state.
	I am one of them, okay?
	I happily support it, and almost everybody I know supports the state, okay?
	We come together as a society and try to work for the better good of the society.
	Now, don't get me wrong, I think the way that the state has been Misused and exploited is disgraceful.
	And I do not agree with the current governments.
	I do not agree with the way things are.
	But that doesn't get away from the fundamental principle that I believe that we're better working together for the greater good of society.
	Okay?
	So, no, no, I've got to interrupt you because you're saying a lot of things that are just not true.
	So working together implies a voluntarism, and you're talking about the state.
	So I think the reality is that since you support the state, you support the initiation of force against me.
	In other words, since you support taxation, you support taxation against me.
	You support the initiation of force against me.
	So that's all you had to say at the beginning of the conversation.
	Since you support the use of force against me, my friend, I can't imagine why I would dignify this conversation as if we're having a rational discussion.
	Because you support the use of force against me, I am not in any way, shape, or form going to pretend that something else is happening other than you supporting the use of force against me.
	So I'm not going to dignify this by pretending we're having a rational conversation about ideals and reason and evidence because you support the use of force against me.
	So there's nothing else for us to talk about.
	Unless you're willing to stop supporting the use of force against me, I'm not going to pretend we're having a rational conversation.
	And with that, Mike, I'm afraid we're going to need to move on to the next call.
	All right.
	Well, up next is David.
	David wrote in and said, When you found the unicorn, a.k.a.
	the ideal female partner, how far should one go?
	Oh, come on.
	Oh, come on.
	The role plays that I get into in my personal relationships and the horse costuming and nose cones that that may involve.
	I'm pretty sure I had tried to keep off the cloud in terms of the video production.
	But anyway, go ahead.
	Alright, when you found the unicorn, how far should one go in order to quote-unquote give it their best shot without crossing any kind of lines?
	Being too dramatic?
	Stalking?
	Stalking?
	Okay.
	All right.
	It's a good question.
	Good question.
	Listen, have you found this mythical beast?
	Well, I sent in the question two months ago.
	Did you blow it?
	No.
	The beast was scared away.
	I set up my booty trap.
	I had the nets.
	All of that was good to go, but something scared it off.
	I don't know what.
	Maybe your reference to a woman as it.
	Oh, you mean the unicorn, right?
	Okay, okay.
	Okay, got it.
	Got it.
	All right.
	Well, before we continue, first of all, I'd like to thank you for accepting me onto this show, Stefan Molyneux.
	This show is a great intellectual tool and it definitely helps me prepare myself for adulthood and the coming great decisions of my life.
	Well, thank you.
	Because I'm paranoid, all I heard was you call me a tool.
	But I appreciate the sentiment as a whole.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	Thank you.
	Thank you very much.
	Very, very kind words.
	So...
	Can you give me a scenario where this would be going down?
	So you meet a woman and she's rational and she's empirical and she's mature and she's committed to self-knowledge and all these kinds of things.
	That's sort of what you're talking about, right?
	Yes.
	And when it comes to starting to get in contact, you know, I'm 19, right?
	So I'm in the dating phase of my life and I've been doing it for two years now.
	But without any great success, been in the grace over multiple times, but never been able to make it into the next stage.
	Okay, so the scenario would be that you start getting in contact with someone and you like to get to know them a bit more.
	And you don't know how much, since you're a guy, right?
	I'm a guy.
	So I should always, I am always the initiator of conversations and the driving force that, you know, develops the relation.
	Because...
	Well, because...
	Lots of biological evolution and so on.
	Yeah, the woman's job is to open the gallery.
	Your job is to pay to get in.
	But okay, more or less.
	But I need to somehow balance it so that I don't go too far.
	But hey, sometimes they wonder, why are you asking all these questions?
	Because you're not actually contributing that much to the conversation.
	And I'd like to know more about you.
	Oh, you do?
	So you do sort of a...
	A rational, emotional cross-examination analysis of her potential carrier of rational eggs?
	Yes.
	Okay, got it.
	I think I've got the new name for the Freedomain Radio dating site.
	Nice.
	Okay, so can you give me the kind of questions?
	Okay, let's pretend that I am some highly evolved, rational, emotive, philosophical cutie.
	What would you ask me?
	Hi.
	I'm reasonable.
	Alright.
	I already know your name.
	I already know your age.
	What did you do?
	Can I tell you?
	You don't know my name.
	My name is Socrates.
	I'll just call you Lucy.
	Okay.
	That's better than Griselda.
	Griselda was the last one.
	Show your mojo on Griselda, who I pretty much thought was a character out of the old BC comics room.
	Okay, so I'm Socrates, which means I'm cheesy and I'm easy, but go on.
	Have you done anything particularly or noteworthy in the last few days?
	No.
	I certainly have.
	I've been working on two things, a hot yoga and a deconstruction of Kantian ethics.
	Oh, that's great.
	I've not been doing anything related to that at all.
	But on the other hand, it's hard to take this serious.
	No, what would you ask?
	Because you're perceived as interrogating, right?
	And not participating?
	Yeah.
	First, I'd ask if she's been doing anything exciting or anything particular or noteworthy in the last days or weeks.
	Then I would go on to ask some more intimate questions like, for example, are you a...
	Have you ever donated to support certain causes, like helping the Horn of Africa?
	Have you ever donated to the Horn of Africa?
	Yeah, like being a world-conscious person, because that's an important value, right?
	Okay.
	Would you like to donate to my Horn of Africa?
	I'm just kidding.
	Stop it, Steph.
	I'll take you the long way around the coast, baby.
	I'll be lapping it up like the deep sea itself.
	Okay, so have you donated to a particular course?
	Sounds like you're about to hit her up for another donation to that course, so...
	Are you trying to get at something?
	Is she interested in international politics?
	Yes.
	Either A, why can't you ask her that directly, or B, why can't you talk about things that you're interested in and see if she has any clue what you're talking about?
	It seems kind of oblique.
	It's a roundabout way to try and get some information that you want.
	Yeah, it's like, you know, you can try to prepare the questions with...
	It's just...
	Alright, let me ask it to you another way.
	Is it really, like, number one on your list of potential life partners that they have an interest in international politics?
	Well, it's...
	I think it's a different...
	I think it's...
	An important one that you shouldn't deny.
	It does say a lot about the person.
	If you're a world-conscious person, that means you have a drive force for change.
	Donating to political causes is having a driving force for change?
	Well, I'm not sure about that, but I get that sort of mainstream view.
	Okay, so give me your top three things.
	And not so specific as international politics or whatever, right?
	But give me your top three things that you'd want out of a potential life partner.
	Well, the first...
	Except for the physical attraction part, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, I think we have to take it for granted that you can't find her like something out of the feed folio.
	Okay, so, alright.
	What else?
	The first would be to...
	Oh yeah, I actually wrote this down.
	Hopefully not on your sweaty hand while you're asking the woman this question.
	To be able to take in new ideas and able to have discussions without feeling offended or aggressive.
	To fully be able to have an open discussion And not be offended.
	Okay.
	Able to share ideas.
	So hang on.
	I know I just asked you for three things, so I'm completely wrong to interrupt you.
	So discuss ideas, and can you get to the second one?
	Okay, so the second one would be to...
	It would be to be more...
	About on the right scale, on the political view, because even if you're open to discussions, it can still be...
	It can still be a little difficult to talk to someone who is far leftist, right?
	Far left political correctness is all about substituting offense for counterargument.
	Yeah, so I've always had some difficulty with talking with these women, you know.
	Okay, so hang on.
	We've got be hot, discuss ideas and right-leaning, which is fine.
	and what else?
	And also, no, what else?
	Have a, it would be also like having a healthy lifestyle.
	Like believing that you really shouldn't smoke, you shouldn't be eating too much sugar or all of those things, right?
	And do some exercise a little now and then and not basically treating yourself like garbage for the sake of short-term satisfaction.
	Right.
	Like candy or something.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Would you like any feedback on this list?
	Feedback on this list?
	Sure.
	Would you like any feedback on this list?
	I would like some feedback on this list.
	Yes.
	That's my feedback on this list.
	Because there's nothing about virtue here.
	Nothing.
	Be hot, discuss ideas, right-leaning, healthy lifestyle with some exercise thrown in.
	None of that has anything to do with exercise.
	I'm sorry, with the exercise of virtue, with virtue itself.
	Alright.
	You know, A younger sailor, Palin, would probably fit into that conversation.
	So the question is, what is your dick for?
	And it's a very, very important question, right?
	Because you're basically saying to your dick, what are we looking for here, right?
	And the reason I say you're talking to your dick is because these would be fine for male friends too, right?
	I mean, other than the be hot thing, which would be, I guess, useful if they're going to be your wingman.
	But you could look for a male friend who's going to discuss ideas, who's right-leaning, who's into a healthy lifestyle, and so on, right?
	So, none of this is specific to your penis.
	That's my concern.
	Good points.
	So, what is your penis for?
	Why do you have a penis?
	I'm not trying to be annoying or insulting.
	It's a very, very important question.
	It sounds like a funny question, but it's a very, very important question.
	What is your penis for?
	Is it for fun?
	No, to reproduce and to preserve my genes and my heritage.
	So that will pass on to the future generations.
	First of all, it's to give you a great tennis grip when you're a teenager.
	But secondly, your penis is there so you can make other penises and vaginas.
	So that they can make other penises and vaginas and so on, right?
	Your penis is there.
	Yeah, your penis is there to make babies.
	That's the only reason it's fun.
	That's the only reason it gives you tingly bits.
	It's the only reason that I guess everyone switched from Speedos to long pants when you couldn't hide your boners anymore.
	That is why you have a penis.
	Now, your penis does not discuss ideas.
	Your penis is not right-leaning, or if it is, you should probably see a doctor.
	And your penis gets exercised, but itself does not exercise.
	I guess too much, right?
	And the reason I'm saying all of this is that you have a penis so that you can make babies.
	And you should be choosing not the cranker of your penis, but the mother of your children.
	Now, the mother of your children I would recommend would have certain virtues that you should be looking for.
	In other words, you choose your partner based upon the best wishes of unrealized children.
	Don't let your penis choose your partner.
	Let your future children produce your partner because that's the only goddamn thing the penis is fundamentally for.
	So, if, just to put yourself in this mindset, if you could imagine being your future child who could pick up a Really long distance iPhone.
	Give you a call and say, this is what I'm looking for.
	This is what I want.
	This is who I want you to impregnate.
	These are the characteristics I want my mom to have.
	What would that kid say you should be looking for?
	You should look for the most beautiful, virtuous woman you can find and just go for it.
	Yeah, okay, that's like saying you should get a high-paying job that you like.
	That's not particularly helpful.
	What are the virtues that you should be looking for?
	Oh, wow.
	What does your future baby and toddler and tween and teenager, what do they want?
	I'm sorry?
	Non-abuse principle.
	Follow it, for example.
	Non-abuser?
	Yes, non-abuser.
	Not use any violence or so.
	You know, the kid would love that.
	Hang on, hang on.
	This is what you come up with?
	Non-abuser?
	That's like girlfriend pulse.
	I mean, sorry.
	Non-abuser is not exactly a crowning virtue.
	I mean, I guess it's nice.
	Necessary, but not sufficient.
	But what does your future kid...
	What do you want his or her mom to be like?
	Be caring.
	Ah, beautiful.
	Okay, okay.
	Caring.
	Caring.
	Now what does that mean?
	Be loving, caring.
	Loving, caring.
	Empathetic?
	Yes.
	Empathetic, okay.
	A good teacher?
	I don't mean like school teacher, but like a good instructor.
	An instructor in virtue, an instructor in love, an instructor in closeness, an instructor in listening.
	A good negotiator, right?
	Somebody who's humble, but somebody who is firm when she's in the right.
	But without being aggressive.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	See, now we're starting to get more than...
	I don't frankly think that your future kids are going to give one tiny rat's ass about which international causes the woman donated to 20 years ago.
	See, now we're starting to cook.
	Now, I would also argue that the things that make a woman a good mother are the things that make a woman a good partner.
	Yeah.
	These points, while very important, very valid, I just skipped them kind of...
	Subconsciously, it's just taken for granted.
	Of course it's going to be included when you look.
	I didn't actually think of that directly.
	So the question is, how do you find out whether the woman is caring, empathetic, a good negotiator, a good teacher, a gentle, calm, patient, and so on?
	It's something you notice by being intimate with them.
	What do you mean by being intimate?
	You know, talking or, you know, being in their presence, having activities, you know, just anything that builds the relation between the two people.
	Right.
	Right.
	So the question now is, How are you going to find that out about a woman that you're interested in?
	Because I want virtue to be the giant jugs on women these days.
	I want virtue to be the high heels, the Dolce& Gabbana.
	I want virtue to be the ass implants on women.
	In other words, I want men to get as turned on by virtue as I am.
	You know, where the pull out in the magazine is not some I don't even know if I want to say it.
	Some naked woman, let's say.
	But instead is, you know, a thesis of the sensitivity and courage and compassion and humor of her heart.
	I want women to be rewarded for being virtuous so that Cosmopolitan and, I don't know what, Marie Claire and other, they're not just about how to make yourself more physically attractive, but it's here's about, here's how to improve the quality of your heart so you can get the best man.
	Yeah.
	Because too many guys are letting the media plus the penis choose the partner.
	And I, you know, I'm not above this.
	I get it.
	I'm not like, oh, floating on Zen, you know, but, you know, I don't care if the most virtuous heart is encased in a 19-year-old Amazonian woman's shrunken chest.
	I'm still turned...
	I get this biological imperatives and all, but we're talking, you're 19, right?
	You're not going to be dating, like, this isn't Harold and Maude territory.
	I can be dating some 80-year-olds, right?
	So, I want...
	Men to be turned on by virtue in women so that women focus more on virtue than lipstick.
	Because lipstick does fuck all for the kids, but virtue will raise a generation of healthier, peaceful, voluntary, free children.
	Which is my goal.
	I want to use your penis to produce rational people.
	But in order to do that, I need to have those future rational people choose who your penis hits.
	Point taken.
	Alright.
	How are you going to find virtue?
	how are you going to measure virtue in a woman hmm hmm Well, I suppose you could ask them.
	No, no, no.
	You just have to notice it by...
	Going on a date with them or just talk to them.
	No, don't need to wait that long.
	Let me give you the first couple of sentences my wife and I ever spoke to each other.
	I got to say, I'll give you the first couple of sentences.
	I remember them very clearly.
	The first couple of sentences my wife and I said to each other.
	And she is gorgeous.
	Anyway, but she doesn't...
	She doesn't dress like she was wearing a t-shirt.
	She was, you know, I mean, when we met playing volleyball 13 or 14 years ago.
	And she doesn't play up her figure.
	She doesn't play up her looks.
	And anyway, so she asked me, we'd been playing together on the team for a couple of weeks, and she asked me how my week was.
	And I said, fantastic.
	I just got my first novel published.
	And she said, wow, that's That's impressive.
	I've never known anyone who writes a novel.
	I'd like to have a look.
	Would you like me to have a look at it?
	Or would you mind if I had a look at it?
	And I said, no.
	No.
	In fact, that's the last thing that I'd want.
	I would never, ever want you to look at it.
	I was just joking with her.
	And she said, oh, no, that reverse psychology won't work on me.
	I practice psychology.
	Which was, I mean, obviously to me, delightful in that, you know, she was interested in what I had to say.
	She was curious to have a look at my book.
	And she also was very playful and assertive in her response to my making a joke, which I found delightful and continue to find delightful even more so many, many years later.
	Now, that doesn't have to go any particular way.
	But...
	There are some things to look for that will really work.
	And, you know, one of them, of course, is, for God's sakes, man, stop interviewing and be yourself.
	Be yourself.
	Because any relationship you enter into under false pretenses will burn you up and burn you out and exhaust you into ashes.
	You know, it's like...
	Yeah, so you have to be yourself because anybody who prefers who you're not is, first of all, false themselves and will never get into who you really are.
	So you're basically going to have to just pretend.
	Sure.
	It's like joining a sorority, right?
	You can never pee standing up.
	If you're a guy, you join a sorority, you can never pee standing up again for the rest of your time there, right?
	Of course, I'd like to show myself and be who I am, but You know, I always had to be the initiator so many times.
	You know, every time.
	Always.
	You know, it's going to go somewhere.
	I have to somehow initiate it and start getting going.
	No, no, no.
	Look, first of all, I mean, I get that most guys ask women out.
	So I get all of that.
	I understand that.
	But the reality is that if you are always taking initiative, the only people you will find in your life are passive people.
	Do you understand what I'm saying?
	Yes, I do, but...
	So you are creating an environment that is only going to bring passive people into your life.
	If you're doing all the peddling, if you're doing all the pushing and you're pouring all the energy in, all you're going to get are passive people and parasites.
	Alright.
	But...
	I feel a need...
	I feel a great need already to find a great woman that I can get in a stable relationship.
	Probably because I've never actually been in a long stable relationship.
	I've always been in the gray zone at best.
	I don't want to wait.
	I've been trying for two years now.
	But that's because you don't want anyone like your mom, right?
	I don't want anyone like my mom.
	Right.
	No, that's not true.
	Wait, so you do want someone like your mom?
	Yeah, she's a great woman.
	Yeah, she's a Californian chick that my dad brought home like a viking, yeah.
	Okay, so you want someone like your mom, right?
	Yes, yes.
	So then how on earth can this be so complicated?
	It's like you're saying to me, I don't know how to speak English, but I grew up in a family that spoke English.
	If you want someone like your mom, then do what your dad did.
	Take his advice.
	Talk with your mom.
	You've had 19 years of interacting with your mom.
	Find someone you can interact with as easily as your mom.
	I don't know why it's so complicated then.
	I didn't want someone who was like my mom, so I had to do a lot of inventing the wheel and changing things around and turning around the supertanker, which of course is my nickname for my penis, but that's just another story, mostly because it leaks oil a lot.
	And there's a strange affinity for coral reefs and drunken sea captain.
	Anyway, that's another story entirely.
	But I wanted someone different from my past, so I had to do a lot of reinvention.
	But if you want someone like your mom, then it should be a whole lot easier, I think, than it seems, right?
	No, because there isn't a whole lot of people that are like my mom.
	At least not here.
	But see, that's why it should be even easier.
	That's why it should be even easier.
	Because then you should be able to very quickly identify who's not like your mom, right?
	Right, so in other words, if I'm looking for A needle in a haystack, then it's going to be pretty easy for me to identify everything that's not a needle, right?
	Everything, yes.
	I don't have to date a piece of hay for three weeks to find out if it's a needle or not, right?
	I just have to look at it or maybe touch it or whatever, right?
	But I don't have, like it's very easy then.
	I'm not saying it's quick, right?
	It still may take me a long time to find the needle in the haystack, but it's not like I've got a Ask all these questions, right?
	So it may be as simple as, you know, look for...
	I mean, because there's this weird thing, right?
	And this sort of comes out of Freud, right?
	And the whole reasons for this very, very quickly.
	So, you know, Freud started looking into their dreams, the unconscious, and so on.
	Because when he was doing his early therapy sessions in the late 19th century...
	All these men and women were coming and saying, well, I was raped as a child.
	I've been sexually abused.
	Because it was apparently, well, it's endemic throughout human history, the sexual abuse of children.
	You can go to psychohistory.com for more on this.
	Sexual abuse of children, endemic throughout history.
	And then when Freud started to uncover the sexual abuse of children, he got a lot of threats from all the pedophiles in his sort of late 19th century Viennese society.
	And so he changed his theory.
	He backed off his theory.
	He gave up.
	He betrayed the children.
	And what he said was, well, all these women who claim that they were raped by their father or their mother, like, so the girls who say, well, I was raped by my father, it kind of actually happened.
	So they must have fantasized it.
	And that's where the electric complex came out of, that women, girls, secretly want to have sex with their fathers or whatever.
	And for the boys who were raped or sexually molested by their mothers, he said, well, it can't really have happened.
	They must just have an unconscious desire to To have sex with their own mothers.
	So when I say, well, look for a woman like your mom, people are like, oh, that's creepy.
	And it's like, no, it's not.
	It's not.
	If you have a mom who's a great partner, the whole point of sexuality in the tribe is to imprint upon what is sexually successful within the tribe.
	Your father was sexually successful by definition.
	Your mother was sexually successful by definition.
	And so doing what your father did to get a woman like your mother is exactly how sexuality should work if you have good relations with your mother and your father, in my opinion.
	And I think there's good reasons for that.
	So if you have someone that you know very well for 19 years who was sexually successful like your mom, who has qualities that you like and admire and respect and she's virtuous and she's, you know, then find someone like your mom.
	That's not some weird Oedipal thing or anything like that.
	It's Just, you know, if your dad is really great in business, and you're starting a business, you talk to your dad, right?
	That's not an electric complex that's like, well, that works, right?
	So, are there just no women around like your mom at all?
	They're hard to find.
	Have you found them?
	Well, yeah, I've been to, oh, well, some, few, Have you talked to your dad about how he found your mom?
	Yes, I have, actually.
	And what did you say?
	Well, the first thing he saw was not her face.
	She's not a Kardashian, is she?
	Just in case, go on.
	From what I heard...
	He first saw her ass and walked up and started talking with her.
	You said you had tennis, like you met through tennis with your wife.
	They met through a German course.
	They went on a German course.
	Abroad.
	So, it was in Austria.
	But, you know, what really got them close was that she was running out of currency at that time.
	And he, you know, being a very tall, handsome guy, To lean upon it.
	And it turned out very well that when they had this interest in each other, he thought she was really gorgeous.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Wait a second here.
	I'm sorry, I'm just not able to connect these dots.
	It may be my limitation, so please bear with me.
	So your father noticed your mom's ass first?
	That's what I've heard.
	And then that she was gorgeous, and she needed money, and he was tall and handsome.
	Yeah.
	I mean, this sounds more like something out of a Tennessee Williams play than the Virtuous Connection play.
	Well, it turned out they were a very good fit when they once get to know each other.
	I'm sorry, they were very what?
	They were a very good fit once they get to know each other.
	Mm-hmm.
	And are you tall and handsome as well?
	Well, I'm...
	I'm...
	You know, when it comes to the physical attraction scale, I'm one meter, 72 centimeters, so relatively tall, but not tall in my country.
	No.
	No.
	Not that tall.
	Slightly below average in my country.
	And physical looks?
	Physical looks is pretty good.
	I have chestnut, blonde, long hair, and I have Yeah, it's a pretty good face.
	And this body figure...
	More Bruce Jenner than Kardashian.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	Yeah.
	Body figure is...
	It's slightly overweight.
	I have more of the endomorph body figure.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, okay.
	But other than that, I've been hearing...
	When my friends asked me, like, when I told them, you know, I've been dating this girl, so, like, they wondered, like, how the hell have you not been able to find a French relationship when you've basically got it all?
	You know, you're a really great guy.
	You have a great, big, open heart.
	You are just a really...
	How have you not been able to find a relationship when you're always dating, always searching?
	Let me ask you a question then.
	We came up with a list of virtues, caring, empathetic, good teacher, good listener, patient and understanding and intelligent and all that, emotionally sensitive, assertive and so on.
	How does your mother rate along this scale?
	Empathetic.
	Caring.
	Slightly lacking in the intellect.
	Not so much of a teacher or instructor.
	Not a teacher, but more of a one that you learn from.
	Not to say that she's unable to, but it's, you know, lacking.
	So, dude, do you know why I'm going to stop you here?
	I'm sorry to interrupt.
	Fine.
	Go ahead.
	The first thing, as far as I understand it, that you said at the beginning of the conversation, not directly but indirectly, was the first thing that you try to figure out with a potential partner, a woman, is her interest in international causes and other things that would indicate higher intelligence or an interest in abstract reasoning and so on.
	Yes, exactly.
	Right?
	if you say that your mother is lacking in intellect, I'm not saying she's dumb or anything like that, but if you were to be your dad asking these questions of your mom that you're asking of these women now, all those years ago, would you even be here?
	See, the reason I'm asking this is you say, well, I want someone just like my mom.
	But I'm asking kinds of questions that would have had my mom screaming for the hills if I'd met her 30 years ago.
	So, which is it?
	If you want someone like your mom, then do what your dad did.
	But if you're asking these kinds of questions that would not be something that your mom would have responded to when she was a young woman, then you don't want someone like your mom.
	At least, At your current state of mind.
	And I think it's that contradiction that is probably at the root of your lack of success in this area.
	Hmm.
	Hmm.
	Let us say it together.
	Hmm.
	But do you see what I'm getting at?
	I mean, you're a smart guy, right?
	This is pretty high-level stuff, but...
	Yes.
	When I look for...
	When I look for women or some potential partners, I always have some standards.
	I go, I'm studying to become a programmer, so I think in programming terms.
	Does she fulfill these requirements?
	Is she virtuous?
	Is she nice?
	Is she funny?
	How well does she fulfill these different requirements?
	You just dodged the whole mom thing really well, right?
	You're going off into programming algorithm land, right?
	So we just dropped the whole mom thing like a hot potato, right?
	Good job.
	Well played.
	I thought we were playing basketball.
	Suddenly we're on the moon, right?
	I just find the dating difficult.
	Now you're dodging again.
	No, no, you're dodging again, man.
	You're dodging again.
	I'm not telling you you're wrong.
	Do you want someone like your mom?
	Then stop asking these questions that would have driven your mom away.
	If you don't want someone like your mom, that's fine too.
	But then figure out what you want.
	But right now, you're basically showing up to a golf game with a tennis racket.
	Because you're saying, well, I want someone like my mom because I'm going to ask all these questions that never would have gotten me my mom if I were my dad.
	So your mind and your heart are in opposite directions.
	Which means you're not gonna have the consistency and solidity and essence of alphaness that is, you know, people, what's the alpha?
	The alpha is not big chest-thumping crap, otherwise I'd be telling people to go work out.
	I mean, work out fine, but the alpha is a minimum of contradictions.
	A minimum of contradictions.
	The real alpha is a maximum of self-knowledge.
	Because through self-knowledge, you eliminate contradictions.
	You resolve contradictions.
	You gain closure on contradictions.
	You're not at war with yourself.
	And when you are not at war with yourself, you are the ultimate alpha.
	Now, that's for good and for evil.
	So Hitler took his weaknesses and projected them onto others and then slaughtered them.
	So hang on.
	So he was without contradictions in his public persona because he split and projected and attacked.
	So being without contradictions can be evil too.
	But if you are not in alignment with yourself, if you are going one way, one way, one way, the other way, Then you're like someone who's trying to do a bicep curl by flexing both the bicep and the tricep at the same time.
	It won't work.
	So if you want sexual success, you need to get in alignment with yourself.
	Now, it means that you want someone like your mom or you want someone who's not like...
	I don't mean the opposite of your mom.
	That's not necessarily true either.
	You want someone like your mom, then stop all of this crap that would have driven away your mom and do what your dad did.
	And then you'll be in alignment with that.
	But then you'll get someone like your mom.
	If that's what you want...
	Be in alignment with that.
	Don't do all this other crap that you're doing.
	I don't mean that it's all crap, but it's crap relative to wanting someone like your mom, who had a nice ass, is not super bright, and wanted money.
	Or needed money.
	And that may sound insulting, but I don't mean that to be insulting.
	I don't mean this to be insulting, I'm simply pointing out.
	Yes.
	But if you want someone who's not like your mom, who's into all of these international causes and philosophy and is right-leaning and whatever it is, right?
	Then recognize that you want someone who's different from your mom, which is no disrespect to your mom.
	It just means that, you know, kids are different and you can have different preferences.
	I mean, I wanted something different from my mom because, or the opposite of my mom, because of moral issues.
	You can want something different from your mom for non-moral issues, just particular preferences, right?
	So get in alignment with what you want, because right now you're telling me one thing, but you're doing another.
	I'll shut up now, but just deal with this, what I'm saying.
	Just don't type me on another tangent.
	I'll be happy.
	When I search for a relationship, I want to feel equality.
	One thing that I want to feel equal to was on an intellectual level, but I'm not so sure anymore.
	Do you feel that with your mom, that you're equal on an intellectual level?
	No.
	And that's good?
	I mean, that's a good thing to know.
	It's a great thing to admit.
	And again, there's no disrespect to anyone in the family.
	so you do want something that's different from your mom I guess so yeah Yes, she's great.
	I'm a great fit for my dad, but I want to find a partner that I can feel intellectually equal on.
	Which means both teaching and learning, right?
	There's no such thing as intellectual equality, just by the by.
	I mean, I just, I really want to be clear about that.
	Like, you can be the, no, listen, you can be the two best golfers in the world.
	Is it always going to be a stalemate?
	Are you always going to get exactly the same score?
	No, not at all.
	No, pretty much, I mean, you will occasionally, but pretty much one if you're going to win and then the other one's going to win and then, you know, it's going to even out because you're both of equal, but they're not, I mean, they can, they're not equal because one of them is going to win and one of them is going to lose.
	It's going to alternate.
	But what that means is that they can continue to learn from each other.
	You learn by dealing with the best.
	You learn by competing with the best.
	I set my sights incredibly high because I want to achieve the very best that I can achieve.
	And I'm not going to get that by aiming at the middle.
	I aim to take on the greats in philosophy.
	I don't aim to do better than Dear Abby.
	No disrespect to Dear Abby, but you know what I mean, right?
	I do.
	So if you want someone who's intellectually equal, It means that you have to be willing to submit to her expertise.
	And she will then submit to your expertise.
	And that submission sounds bad, you know, like dominance and submission.
	But it's not.
	You gain power through submission.
	Like if you want to build a bridge, submit to physics and engineering and you'll get the bridge.
	If you don't, you'll get God knows what, right?
	So if you're going to look for an intellectual equal, look at someone who's superior.
	Within about 10 or 15 seconds of me talking to my wife, she had won.
	She had correctly identified that I was making a joke using reverse psychology and she told me that wasn't going to work because she had superior knowledge, infinitely superior knowledge to me almost, in the area because that's her field, right?
	And so she was in charge.
	She was, quote, the dominant one in that interaction.
	Hmm.
	And I was delighted to submit to her expertise and happy to receive the instruction and delighted that she won up to me and did it beautifully.
	And, you know, that sense of humor, that assertiveness, and that has all been a delightful part of who she is ever since.
	And so, I know what you mean.
	Like, intellectual equals, I completely get that.
	But that involves 50% submission.
	Right?
	Does that make sense?
	The two best golfers is going to be 50% losing.
	It's just that that's the lowest...
	That's the lowest...
	That's the highest losing they'll get.
	Because everyone else, they're going to win 99% of the time.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So this is the lowest winning they could possibly get and the highest losing they could possibly get with each other.
	And that's what it means to be in a relationship of equals.
	That it's the most submission that you can achieve.
	Yeah, but that...
	That you can both achieve.
	Yeah, but then it's just down to a very small...
	No, but let me tell you why before you rush off on your fucking intellectual jetpack, right?
	Yeah.
	The reason I'm saying this is you keep telling me basically that you have to initiate and you want to be in charge and you want to drive the conversation and you're interviewing people and you're trying to figure out you're a dominant, right?
	Yes.
	And you say you want an equal.
	Right?
	Yeah, I do.
	But you can't be dominant and want an equal.
	This is why it's not working for you, my friend.
	I speak for your penis.
	I speak for your seed.
	Right?
	It's not...
	Is your father dominant and more assertive with your mom?
	Is he running the conversation?
	I don't mean is he a bully.
	I don't mean anything like that.
	Does he take more initiative?
	Does he kind of call the shot, so to speak?
	He, um...
	And it's not a positive or negative?
	He's the first to bring the ideas to the table to be discussed.
	He takes more initiative.
	I don't want to frame it in a negative way.
	I'm really not trying to do that.
	So he's a little bit more dominant, he's a bit more assertive, he initiates more, right?
	Yes.
	So if this is the habit that you've got from your mom, and this is where, sorry, from your dad, then this is the challenge, right?
	So you've got these habits from your dad, which is take initiative, take charge, frame the conversation, you know, but at the same time you say, well, but I don't want someone like my mom.
	I want an intellectual equal.
	But that doesn't work.
	That approach will not work.
	All right.
	To get you an intellectual equal, right?
	I follow my...
	You understand what I'm saying, right?
	I do, and I'd like to add that I follow my dad's footstep very closely.
	I want to be like my dad.
	Get ready for mom mark two, right?
	But if you don't want mom mark two, then you have to change your approach, right?
	Because you're doing what got your dad, your mom, but you don't want someone, like your mom, or at least you want some of the good aspects, but there's other things that you want as well, right?
	And if you don't know all of that, yeah, if you don't know all of that, then you're, it's like you're practicing, again, I hate using all these mixed metaphors, but it's like you're practicing a tennis serve while holding a golf club.
	Like, that's great for tennis, but But you're holding a golf club.
	And if you're playing golf, there's no serving in golf, right?
	At least I've never seen it.
	So...
	Okay.
	And...
	It's just that...
	It may be a little now off the track, but...
	I would expect nothing less from RedirectoBot.
	But anyway, go on.
	You, Stefan, you dated for a long time yourself, right?
	Yes.
	And it took that time until you found, you know, your match, you know, your future equal, your partner.
	Yeah.
	And did you not struggle, you know, like question yourself or like have...
	Struggle on an emotional level is that you fail repeatedly to find a great woman.
	No, listen, man.
	I was so clueless.
	I wasn't even in the realm of failure.
	It's like watching a two-year-old attempting to stack blocks on each other and saying he's failing to build a building.
	No.
	I wasn't even competent enough to be in the realm of failure.
	This is partly why I talk about this kind of stuff on this show, is, you know, empathy for the kind of instruction that I sure as hell wish that I had received when I was younger.
	So, but I will tell you this, I will tell you this.
	Very, very important part of life.
	I was just thinking about this today, coincidentally, so I'm not trying to chew on this in, but this is very important, I think.
	I hope.
	So, I was watching some snowboarders today.
	You know what that is, right?
	Snowboarders?
	Yeah.
	I don't know where you come from in the world.
	Don't tell me.
	Do you know what...
	It's like a giant skateboard without wheels on snow.
	Oh, yeah.
	It's a way for young people to say, my bones knit easily.
	And certainly more easier than you middle-aged people who ski.
	And so snowboarding, they do this half pipes and all this kind of stuff where there's this gully or this bowl.
	It's like half a It's like half a tube.
	It's like a sewage pipe or a tube and you cut the top half off and you fill it with snow.
	So all that kind of crap, right?
	And they do this thing where they go up and they go sideways on pipes.
	And then they go down.
	And it's sort of like when I watch skateboarders from time to time as well.
	It's really stupid stuff.
	I mean, I like stupid human tricks.
	I mean, I think it's cool that people can do, like, triple flips when they go skiing and shit like that.
	It's cool.
	Don't get me wrong.
	I mean, I'm not hating on it or anything like that.
	But it's really, you know, compared to philosophy and virtue and being a good human being, it's pretty stupid shit.
	And I was watching these guys that go across this pipe.
	And then they go down.
	And it's like watching these goddamn...
	Oh, people are going to hate me for this.
	But so what?
	I'm just telling you, but I'm not trying to give you any philosophical arguments.
	I'm just giving you a perspective.
	It's like watching those kids with the skateboards, you know?
	I want to be able to rotate it three times and then come down on the top.
	Why?
	Why?
	Come on!
	There's great books to read.
	You could go write a haiku.
	You could learn a language.
	Play guitar.
	Look, I go up on the curb, it flips two times.
	If I can do it three times, that's better.
	And it's like the Rubik's Cube guys when I was a kid.
	Look, I can solve the Rubik's Cube.
	I'll just take the labels off, man.
	I mean, stupid shit.
	It really is.
	And so much of life, we go in pursuit of this unbelievably stupid stuff.
	And we all have this fantasy.
	You see these spy movies, right?
	And the spy in the spy movies is like this annoying fucking know-it-all, right?
	Because he's like, aha, we parachute.
	I'm an expert parachuter.
	I can land directly on this jet ski.
	I can go the jet ski at Mach 12, and I can circumnavigate all of these rocks, and I can use it to jump up on the pier, and then I land on a motorcycle, and wouldn't you know it?
	I'm an expert motorcyclist, and then I stop at a Parisian restaurant, and I order my meal in fluent French, and then, you know, like, it turns out we have to run into a Cessna.
	Yeah, and then we have to go into a Cessna, and don't you know, I can blindfold myself and still fly a plane simply by using sonar to figure out the precision of the instruments and where they actually are.
	And then it turns out that I'm an expert scuba diver who can wrestle a shark.
	You know, like, all this kind of stuff, right?
	And we all have this fantasy that, you know, well, I'm on this date, you see, and we go to this bar, and there are these tough guys playing pool.
	And she's like, I'd like to play some pool.
	And you put your money down on the pool table.
	And then you basically say, it's alright boys.
	If I get to go first, you won't even need to pick up your cues.
	And you break.
	And then you put all of the balls into the pockets.
	One after another and everyone's jaw drops.
	And you're Tom Cruise in that stupid movie about pool.
	Look, it's exciting.
	The balls are moving.
	It's a different kind of movie that's exciting.
	And we all have this fantasy that everything we do, and then it's karaoke night, and wouldn't you know, I go up and do a fantastic Frank Sinatra, and it turns out someone has a guitar, and then I do Stairway to Heaven, and I sound great, and I look great, and next thing you know, just really great.
	And it's just incredible.
	In the book, which is basically a graphic novel, a pop-up book of Really bad porn.
	Fifty Shades of Grey.
	This guy, a Christian I think his name is, just to bring in the Catholic girls, but this guy is like, he's really rich.
	He's a really successful businessman.
	He plays piano beautifully.
	He's really great at sex.
	He has a six-pack.
	It's like, pick one, man.
	Come on.
	If you want to be really great at business, you're not doing sit-ups.
	If you're really great at piano, you can't also be really great at everything else because piano costs time and most people have to sleep.
	And so the reason I'm saying all of this is that when you look at what people are good at, this is economics.
	The economics of human expertise is really important to understand.
	If someone pulls out a guitar It was a guy I knew as a teenager.
	He'd pull out a guitar and he was a complete Springsteen freak.
	And he could just play everything that Springsteen had ever written and all associated Springsteen clones like Fogarty and all this kind of stuff and all that.
	And he could just play that stuff, that middle America, depressed, anxious, nihilistic rock.
	Everyone was like, wow, it's so cool that he could do all this great guitar stuff.
	And I did think it was cool.
	Don't get me wrong.
	But what I also saw was all the books he hadn't read.
	Like everyone's like, that's great guitar.
	And I'm like, he's functionally illiterate.
	I know that sounds harsh, but it's true.
	And the reason I know that is because I spent most of my teenage years playing sports and reading books.
	And not learning guitar.
	And so I can play like two songs on a guitar...
	But I've read a lot of books.
	But people don't look at my book reading and say, wow, great use of time.
	Because nobody sits there and says, hey man, read us some Dostoevsky at a party.
	Everyone's like, oh, you can play guitar?
	Cool.
	And there's nothing wrong with that.
	It's just when you see something that someone's good at, the important thing to know is what's missing from that person.
	Or somebody in the chatroom said, like, role-playing games, your stats can't all be maxed out.
	I mean, then it's boring, right?
	18-100 strength, 18-100 strength, right?
	And 19 wisdom, because I'm a great cleric, and 22 wisdom.
	Intelligence, because I'm a great wizard.
	Dexterity of 4,000, because I'm a great thief.
	Constitution, because I'm a dwarf who's made of iron.
	Whatever, right?
	So the reason that I'm saying all of this is that skills are like government programs.
	Talents and visible abilities are like government programs.
	The point of government programs is to give you this visible benefit and have you ignore the hidden cost.
	And the point of obvious skills is to have you focus on a general perception of excellence, but every, every, every concentrated skill is the shadow cast by diffuse incompetence.
	Everything you focus on, everything you study, everything you become great at is a giant War.
	Blocking the light out from any other plant you might have grown.
	Everything you're really great at is a direct marker of all the things you suck at because you're really great at something.
	Saying yes to something means saying no to everything else.
	Exactly, exactly.
	And we look at this competence and we think, wow, oh that guy, he's really great at guitar, what a great guy.
	It's like, no, there's nothing wrong with being really great at guitar.
	I'm not arguing against excellence here.
	I'm not arguing against being great at stuff.
	I've put 40,000 hours into philosophy.
	Do you know what that means?
	I suck at so much, it's ridiculous.
	I suck at so much.
	It's ridiculous.
	I'm terrible.
	At university, I would go to the library and I would read.
	Do you know what that meant?
	That meant I sucked at beer pong.
	I just didn't get those skills.
	I am not a pickup artist.
	Because now, not that I ever would be again, That was never my thing.
	I never wanted to manipulate women that way.
	Because I just don't like people having power over me.
	And to manipulate someone is to act with the reality that they have power over you.
	The slave manipulates.
	The master commands.
	The manipulation is a sign of weakness.
	I don't want a sign of weakness.
	Go for strength.
	So, your father is good at attracting women like your mom.
	And if you want a woman like your mom, then act like your dad.
	If you want to switch it up a little bit from who your mom is, no disrespect, nothing negative.
	It's not like she set fire to your kiddies or anything, right?
	But if you want to mix it up, then you're going to have to step into the world of incompetence.
	Because you have 19 years of training on how to act like your dad.
	And 19 years of training on how to interact with women like your mom.
	Right?
	Now, if you want something different, then you're going to have to step out of that which is comfortable.
	And you are going to have to step out of that in which you are competent.
	Because competence will only get you the results of whoever taught you to be competent in.
	Alright, well, so I have to get my fancy pants on and be Elvis or what?
	Really?
	Are you just trying to annoy me now?
	Come on, I give you a speech like that and you're giving me something slightly mocky, slightly snarky.
	Okay, sorry.
	No, that was your dad, right?
	That was me.
	No, because I was saying you need to do something different than your dad did and I got something snarky back and I assumed that would be coming from your inner dad.
	Because if you, look, if you choose someone different from your mom...
	How's your dad going to feel?
	Surprised.
	And?
	I'm not sure if he would feel disappointed, but...
	I don't think disappointed.
	No.
	Do you think it's a better relationship to be with an intellectual equal?
	That's what it feels like.
	That's what it's leaning towards.
	I think there's a case to be made for it.
	I certainly wouldn't choose intellectual equality over virtue.
	But if your choice is between virtue and your superior intellectually, or virtue and your equal intellectually, I think that it's better, isn't it, to...
	To prioritize virtue, it's...
	Well, the virtue is equal, but if...
	I'm not trying to guess your mom's IQ, but let's say you can have a virtuous woman with an IQ of 95, you can have a virtuous woman with an IQ of 150.
	And let's say your IQ is high, right?
	If your IQ is high, then wouldn't you want someone as smart as you?
	In other words, if you really want to have a good game of tennis, then don't you want to play with someone if you're really good?
	Don't you want to play with someone?
	That you can have a challenge with.
	Yeah.
	That you lose half the time, right?
	Because that's winning.
	Losing half the time in a relationship is winning.
	It's growth.
	The two best tennis players, if they lose to each other half the time, they're getting way better than if they were winning 99% of the time.
	In relationships, losing is winning if both people do it equally.
	So, your father, by not having an intellectual equal, if that's the constellation of the marriage, it's not a moral issue.
	It's not a moral issue.
	But he is not as excellent a person as he could be if he had an intellectual equal.
	Now, if he had an intellectual superior, then the roles would be reversed and Indeed.
	It wouldn't be optimum either, right?
	No.
	And the reason, it's all complicated stuff, and I'm sorry to be firing the hose of info at you, but my daughter's just started playing cards.
	And she asked me if I played cards when I was a kid.
	And I said, yeah.
	And did you like it?
	Yeah, sometimes.
	And she said, did you win?
	A lot.
	And I said, no.
	And she said, well, how come?
	And I said, well, you know, I played a lot with my brother.
	My brother was older.
	And my brother was pretty competitive and always wanted to win.
	Now, when you're a couple of years older, it's not that hard to win, right?
	Now, when you're teaching your kid something, Like when I was, my daughter loves to run, so when we were having running races, I was a runner when I was younger, a cross-country runner.
	And we have running races, then I run fast enough that it's work for her to beat me, but I don't go full out and it's like, eat my dust, six-year-old!
	You know, that would be, to me, kind of a dick move, right?
	So I wanted to be challenging for her So I don't, like, walk because then it's not a race.
	But I also don't want to go as fast as I could possibly go because I'm almost six foot tall.
	It's just not fair, right?
	Indeed.
	And so where you're running neck and neck is where you go the fastest.
	In fact, they've done studies Where they get bicyclists to race around a particular track.
	They're on bike machines or whatever.
	They're pretending to race around a particular track.
	And they have them do it, I don't know, ten times.
	The fastest they can possibly do it.
	And then what they do is they subtly change the algorithm so that it appears that they were going even faster.
	And then they say, can you beat your time?
	And they say, oh no, that was the fastest I could possibly do.
	And then they play it back, and it's true, they can't beat the time.
	But the time was sped up and they end up beating the real time, because the pretend time was sped up like 10%, and they end up being 5% slower, which was actually their prediction, I can't beat my fastest time, but they were still 5% faster than the actual time.
	Perception of victory, perception of loss.
	Is in many cases and in many instances reality of victory and reality of loss.
	When people compete against themselves, even if they think they're losing, they can still win.
	That's how neck and neck makes things better.
	And people say, well, what if there's a dominant company in an industry?
	Then that industry will die!
	It will die because there's no neck and neck.
	There's no neck and neck in that industry.
	The industry flourishes when it's neck and neck.
	Human beings accelerate when they're neck and neck.
	If somebody just beats you, you lose motivation.
	If you just beat someone, you get bored.
	Neck and neck is the definition of excellence.
	And I'm not a big fetishist for excellence.
	I'm just simply pointing it out.
	That if you do want the highest quality, In your relationships, if you want the greatest excellence, then you want an equal, which means you want to lose half the time.
	You want to be beaten half the time.
	You want to be vanquished and instructed half the time.
	And if your dad didn't want that, and you do, then he is going to, I'm guessing, I don't know your dad, I'm just trying to put myself in his shoes, then he is going to experience that You have more confidence than he does.
	Or you're less shallow than he is.
	Or whatever it is.
	It's going to be a challenge.
	And it's not a bad thing.
	Because, I mean, we can't simply photocopy everyone who went before us for fear that any different decisions we make might be looked at askance.
	Well, there would be no developments.
	There'd be no developments.
	Moving on.
	My dad did not know fire.
	Put the magic burning tongues of light out.
	He'd be upset he ate all his meat cold.
	My daughter is not going to have to wait until she's in her 30s to get married if she wants to get married because she won't be like Jesus in the desert of dead pussies like I was in my 20s.
	She won't be born in the jungle and have to find her way to civilization.
	And that's going to be painful to me.
	In the same way that her easy confidence in disagreeing with me is great.
	I love it.
	But I also recognize that there's great pain in familial progress.
	Because it's sad for me that she can so easily disagree with me and so assertively disagree.
	Hold her ground in the face of disagreement.
	It's not like we have a lot, but you know, we do.
	And that she is so relentlessly unafraid of me is sad for me.
	Because I would love to have met the person I could have been had I grown up without fear.
	That would have been An amazing experience.
	Which will never happen.
	Because I will never have grown up without fear in the way that my daughter grows up without fear.
	And so in all progress there is pain.
	Of course there is.
	I mean, people pour heart and soul into developing a horse and carriage business and then some jerkwad invents the car.
	And all of that money evaporates and all the people who shovel the shit off the streets of the cities now have to go pump gas.
	Well, maybe that's a step up.
	I'm sure it is, right?
	So if you're going to make decisions that are different from your parents, again, I'm not saying this is any fundamental moral decision, I'll shut up in a sec, and I apologize for going on so long, but this is an extreme way of putting it, but the man who is a janitor, whose son becomes a professor, it's bittersweet.
	No one can tell me that it's nothing but happy pride.
	The man who takes the easy road, gains benefits in the short run, The man who takes the hard road often gains benefits in the long run.
	And what happens is the man who took the easy road, his benefits are long gone by the time the benefits to the man who takes the hard road rolls around.
	And so at the beginning, the man who takes the hard road envies the other man.
	Later on, the man who takes the easy road envies the other man.
	If you go for intellectual equal, then it may be a little bit tougher at the beginning.
	I don't think it's true, but it could be.
	Because the difference is that I was older than you, right?
	Say you find someone tomorrow who's an intellectual equal, who can converse with you at this level, who can, you know, like the thought that I've brought to you today about your mom and intellectual equals and so on.
	These are the kinds of conversations you should be having every day.
	Oh yeah, I would love to.
	Right, I know you would.
	I know you would.
	So when are you going to ask me out, you chicken?
	I'm kidding.
	But But I know you, and why not?
	Why not aim for that?
	But that is going to be a challenge.
	It's going to be disorienting sometimes.
	If you date a woman with this level of sensitivity, of curiosity, of insight, and so on, it's going to be bittersweet to your dad.
	This is why you're torn.
	There's something that you want, But you have a template, which if you go for what you want, it will be discombobulating to some degree to your parents.
	And so there is a commandment to do it from your heart, and there's a restraint from doing it from your parents.
	And I'm not saying consciously, I don't mean this maliciously on their part or anything like that, but it's really important to be aware of it, in my opinion.
	So, a bumpy road.
	Not necessarily.
	I think that loneliness and a lack of self-knowledge would be the real bumpy road.
	Well, yeah, that's something I lack, at least now.
	Right.
	Alright.
	Yeah, yes, this makes a whole lot of sense.
	I've been I haven't noticed it until now, you're really talking on it on a deep level, that I have a need for a relationship, but I want someone.
	You know, I want the best, almost.
	Not necessarily the best, but, you know, on It's a lot to take in.
	But this is the level, in my opinion, that you need to be working at in order to meet your heart's desire.
	You've got to go deep.
	Because you've got to be comfortable with deep when you meet a deep person, which is where love lives.
	True.
	Wow.
	How long did you date?
	My wife?
	No, before.
	How long did it take until you found her?
	How long did it take?
	Okay.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I can't remember.
	I met my wife in my mid-30s, and I've been dating since my mid-teens, so yeah, a long time.
	And had society even given a shit about the hearts of men, then there would have been more instruction on how men could find great women who are out there and are as frustrated with society as the MGTOWs and the men are.
	There are great women out there who are incredibly frustrated.
	Yes.
	At the way society makes us all relentlessly shallow and fundamentally sociopathic.
	It's tits not heart that counts.
	Right?
	It's ass not heart that counts.
	Right?
	Boobs not brains.
	And the relentless shallowing out and easy physical stimuli is a drug that is regularly applied to the male penis which blinds it to virtue.
	But it took you so long because you were not as prepared as, let's say, for me.
	Like, I am now.
	Well, I hope so.
	I mean, look, I try as best I can to put out to men and to women what I think philosophically makes for a great relationship.
	I've seen both sides.
	Of the coin.
	I have a great relationship with my wife and had more physically based relationships in the past.
	And man, I mean, if I could go back.
	I mean, I wouldn't want my life to be different than it is now, but that doesn't mean that other people have to suffer through what I suffered through.
	You know, I'm like the Marlboro man who's dying of lung cancer saying, don't smoke.
	It's one of the reasons why I just keep listening to your show because I want to prepare Myself or adulthood for the great decisions in my life so that I don't have to go through what a lot of other people had to but they wish they didn't.
	Right.
	Right.
	And I want, in particular, I want men to keep their hearts as pure as possible.
	For the great women.
	Because when you are with dangerous women, when you are with harmful women, when you are with shallow women, when you are with exploitive women, when you are with hypergamy-based life forms, it scars you.
	It makes you wounded.
	It makes you fearful.
	It makes you nervous.
	It makes you untrusting and untrustworthy in a way.
	And, you know, there's lots of complaints from men around, and I get, and I really understand this, lots of complaints of men around saying basically, you know, like 80% of the sex is achieved by like 5 or 10% of the guys.
	And, like I said, what, 90% or 10% about it, right?
	And so these nice guys who don't have all of these, you know, hottie, body, six-packy, flowing hair, whatever looks, right?
	Tall, in particular.
	We'll do a whole show on height prejudice, which is one of the most blatant and horrible forms of discrimination in the world today.
	But anyway, guys get really frustrated because they try to date these girls and these girls are just going for these shallow, good-looking idiots.
	Indeed.
	And this all the way through their 20s and then the women panic and then when they get...
	Older and less attractive and they're more neurotic and they might have STDs.
	They're like, okay, I'll date you now.
	And the guys are like, no, I don't really want sloppy seconds from a whole daisy chain of alpha shallow cum dumpsters.
	No, thank you.
	But look, it goes both ways.
	Guys who get their hearts ripped out by some haughty vampire...
	You know, are slim pickings for the good women as well.
	And so, just as men are frustrated that women go for looks, women, good women are frustrated that men go for looks.
	And again, having good looks is not a bad thing.
	I mean, don't get me wrong, right?
	But, you know, current culture, you know, like, too much sugar leads to diabetes, which can lead to blindness.
	And too much focus on physical attraction leads to a spiritual sickness that renders you blind to virtue.
	And health is great.
	Exercise is great.
	And I wouldn't want to be with a woman who couldn't go snowshoeing because she'd have a heart attack or something.
	It's just I like to be active.
	Yes.
	But don't...
	Be careful.
	Guard your heart.
	Guard your...
	Sense of safety.
	Guard your vulnerability.
	Guard your open-heartedness.
	Because speaking on a ridiculously vain behalf of the world's future children, the future children of the world would say, we need our Father's heart to be open.
	We need our Father's heart to be capable of love.
	We need our Father's heart to be vulnerable.
	And if we are throwing ourselves against the brittle, dangerous, diamond-edged, jagged pill of a woman's mere physical attractiveness, then we are putting our most sensitive organ into the world's harshest blender, which is our heart, into the cruel hands of cruel people.
	So this is why I urge, focus on virtue, focus on virtue.
	Hey, if it comes in a hearty package too, great.
	So much the better.
	There's icing on your cake.
	But don't go for anything but the cake.
	Thank you, Stefan.
	That's what I needed to hear.
	Alright.
	Well, let us know how it goes.
	And, you know, if you can get to a therapist, that would be, again, a good recommendation for me.
	And again, therapy not because you're smashed up and broken, but because you want to do something different.
	You know, last analogy.
	So, if my dad is a championship tennis player...
	And I want to play tennis, I don't need an outside coach because I'm doing that which my family already has expertise in, right?
	However, if my dad is a couch potato and I want to become an expert tennis player, he can't teach me because I'm doing something different than what my dad does.
	Indeed.
	Right?
	If he wants to teach me how to use a dust buster to...
	Hoover chip dip out of my belly button, I guess I'm set.
	But if I actually want something else, then I'm not.
	So when you want to do something different from what your parents have given you, this is not a moral judgment, then an outside expert who's got more experience in those sorts of things is important, whether it's choosing someone not exactly the same as your mom or whether it's becoming an expert tennis player.
	So I hope that helps.
	All right.
	All right.
	This is...
	Alright, this is great.
	Okay, fantastic.
	And thank you again for being open-hearted in this call.
	You've got a lot to offer a partner, man.
	I'm telling you that.
	You've got a lot to offer a partner.
	I mean, your sensitivity, your intelligence, your open-heartedness is really admirable, and I really appreciate it.
	Yeah, that's actually why I'm starting to question why I haven't found anyone yet, which led me to asking this question in the first place.
	Right, right.
	Well, hopefully this helps.
	And keep us posted.
	Many of my friends would like to hear this as well.
	Well, you know, I... I always loved that bit in the Bob Marley song, which I said before.
	It's like, I'm playing for mankind.
	That was his thing.
	He was playing for mankind.
	And I want this to go as wide as possible.
	I'm happy that we're hitting three, four, five hundred thousand people.
	But let's do three or four or five hundred million.
	So I'm trying to make it as general as possible without, at the same time, not...
	I want to make sure I'm dealing with your stuff but making this general to be useful to others.
	Anyway, let's move on to the next caller, but thanks very much for your call.
	Bye.
	Thank you, David.
	Up next is Laurent.
	He wrote in and said, What sense does it make to use the word community?
	In a recent video about Christians and Marxists, I was slightly offended by the connection made between atheist community and leftist.
	Why is it important to group people by a single trait?
	Why is it important to group people by a single trait?
	Okay, go on.
	I've got some thoughts, but I want to make sure that I'm following what you're saying.
	Okay, this is not like the most deep question I could have solved, but I was making a parallel between you talking about atheists and Marxists and everything in that video, And many debates I've watched involving, you know, atheists and people like Dawkins or Ronskraut and other people.
	And then it only comes up, the debate about morality and that the atheists have this unmovable reference to morality.
	And then they talk about the atheist community as being the immoral one.
	That's just an example.
	As being the one?
	The immoral community, you know, the people who are allowed to do anything because they have no moral standards or no reference, no solid reference to morality.
	Right.
	But what I was getting to is that I know that you didn't enjoy that kind of things, but in general, when In any kind of discussion on this show or at the dinner table or anywhere, people seem always eager to group other people by fixed groups.
	Like they are the atheists, the leftists, the this and the that.
	And I don't understand why it's so important to group people because in these groups, anyway, there are millions of people who are not at all connected I'll tell you what is annoying to me,
	and I don't mean anything negative about this, I'm just sort of sharing my experience, is when somebody says, well, why is it important to do this?
	That, to me, is not a very helpful way of putting it.
	Right.
	Because the question isn't whether it's important or not.
	The question is, is there accuracy or not?
	Yes, yes, exactly.
	Right, so if I were to say Democrats are more in favor of social spending than Republicans, would you consider that an accurate statement?
	Yes, probably.
	Wait, wait, no, no, hang on.
	What do you mean probably?
	Probably.
	What do you mean probably?
	Do you mean that it's not true?
	If we told Democrats, I'm not from the US, I don't really understand.
	Okay, let's put it this way.
	If we say socialists are more in favor of social spending than libertarians are, government social spending, would that be an accurate statement?
	Yes.
	In general?
	Okay.
	So, if you were to replace the word accurate with important, how does that help at all?
	The question isn't Is it important to group people by like characteristics?
	The question is, can it be done accurately?
	Now, if it can be done accurately, then you can say, well, I think it's true, but it's not particularly important.
	But you're starting with, is it important, not is it true?
	And those two are not the same.
	So the question is, with regards to atheists, just to take the example that you've cited for me, For those who don't know, I have pointed out that there does seem to be a tendency, it's not 100%, but there does seem to be a tendency for atheists to be more on the socialist side of the spectrum.
	And for religious people, in particular for Christians in America, I'm not talking about Zoroastrians or Muslims or whatever, but Certainly in America, there is a tendency more for Christians to be for smaller government and for atheists to be for a larger government or at least a large government.
	Now, the question isn't, is that important?
	The question is, is it accurate?
	And I think if you look at the average Republican, They tend to be more religious than Democrats, and they tend to be for smaller government, whereas Democrats tend to be more atheist agnostic and tend to be for larger government.
	I think it is an accurate statement, and if it is an accurate statement about some very powerful thoughts about authority and control within society, saying it's not important is ridiculous, right?
	Now you can tell me that you don't think it's accurate, and you can cite me statistics or arguments as to why it's not accurate, But don't start off by telling me it's not important, because it damn well is.
	It may be inaccurate, but it is important to know that if you take away God, then you replace God with the state in general.
	That is very important.
	If you take away the state, then you replace it with God, because people are raised to be submissive, and they're going to submit to either God or the state or both.
	It certainly is important.
	Now, you can certainly argue the accuracy, but I don't think it's fair to say why is it important.
	Yes, we could say that about almost any group of people.
	I mean by that...
	Could say what?
	Hang on, be specific.
	Could say what about what?
	What I was trying to...
	My first language is English, so I'm sorry if I have difficulty in saying what I mean.
	If you take the artists, or if you take the people who play sports, or I don't know, any kind of people, the chess players, this isn't going to be very accurate, but my prediction is that If you call these people and ask them what they think about the state, the majority of any group will be more socialist than not.
	Well, no, I wouldn't say that's true.
	Because, for instance, in Canada, a significant proportion, if not most artists, gain their living directly or indirectly through the state.
	Right?
	So, we have the discipline of economics to tell us that people follow incentives.
	No matter what they say, for the vast majority of human beings, they're following their own petty, personal, short-term self-interest.
	And so, if people are paid by the state, they're not going to be anti-state, at least not in any fundamental way.
	They may be anti-current state because they want to replace it with a more powerful state of communism or whatever, more extreme socialism, but they're not going to be anti-state.
	And so if you looked at a group of artists in a purely free market, well, okay, I would agree with you that you can't say much About the philosophical leanings of people in a free market, in a non-philosophical group.
	Like in a free market, all the people in the socialist club, we can assume are socialists, right?
	Or at least interested in socialism or that way inclined.
	But if you were to say, in a free society, if you were to say, what are the political beliefs of bricklayers, I don't think you could really make a coherent answer to that.
	I think.
	But if you were to say, what are the political beliefs of bricklayers who are all paid by the government, I think you'd say, well, they're pretty big on government spending and they're pretty big on getting their paycheck.
	Because most people are pretty big on getting their paycheck.
	Which is why people like single moms in America overwhelmingly vote Democrat.
	And married women vote Republican.
	Because single moms get money from the government And married women's husbands pay money to the government.
	I mean, married women do too, but usually not to the same degree.
	So that's just pure self-interest.
	95% of blacks vote for Obama.
	Is it because they really believe in his policies?
	No.
	They're just voting for who's in their tribe.
	God help you if you're a white person to do it.
	I voted for him because he's white.
	You racist!
	I voted for him because he's black.
	Well, that's empowered.
	Oh, goody, goody.
	Look at these objective standards we're all living under.
	And so in Canada, you can correct me if I'm wrong.
	I don't think there's a single Anarcho-communist professor.
	Oh, sorry, anarcho-capitalist.
	Probably is a couple of anarcho-communists.
	I don't think there's a single anarcho-capitalist professor in Canada that I've heard of.
	I could be wrong, and people could certainly correct me on that, but it's certainly rare.
	I certainly know of at least half a dozen in the United States.
	And so these are just...
	You know, where people's group is defined by a particular self-interest...
	It's not unreasonable to assume that people are following that self-interest.
	So if there's a union of Canadian artists and the vast majority of the Canadian artists get paid by the state directly or indirectly, I can guarantee you that that union will never be lobbying to reduce government spending for the arts.
	It just won't be happening.
	Any more than the teachers' union It's going to be very keen on privatizing government schools.
	That's not inaccurate, neither is it unimportant.
	Does that make sense?
	It does.
	Where I was coming from was just my personal experience.
	I didn't try to find out any statistics or anything like that.
	And from my experience, I've been navigating in various communities, if we may say so, for decades.
	And for example, I have never met a software engineer who is not pro-state.
	I have never met a heavy metal musician, not even professionally, but just a guy who is not pro-state.
	I have never met a chess player, because that's something I do, and who is not pro-state.
	Actually, I only know of two people in my entire existence who share this kind of anti-state ideas.
	And sorry to interrupt you, but the reason for that, of course, is that we're generally all raised in government schools.
	Or we're raised in schools that have to follow a government curriculum.
	So what you're saying is that propaganda is effective.
	And of course propaganda is effective.
	That's why the government runs the schools.
	It knows damn well how effective propaganda is.
	It knows how well and how much and how deeply children bond with whoever gives them their primary instruction.
	And it's displaced parents by burdening them with second jobs and huge amounts of homework.
	Homework is just another way of government intruding into family life and disrupting and destroying family relations.
	And what that does is it turns children more towards Teachers initially and then towards peers.
	And so we all have a preference for in-group tribal advancement and acceptance because we're a social species.
	We're not cats, we're dogs.
	And so what you're saying to me is that propaganda works and people like to be accepted and approved of.
	And I will fully agree with you with that.
	But that doesn't, you know...
	That doesn't mean that...
	I mean, propaganda works on heavy metal musicians, it works on software engineers, it works on everyone except philosophers, right?
	Which is why this show is trying to make as many philosophers as humanly possible, because we are the only antibodies that can fight this plague of pro-state sophistry and propaganda.
	So, it's not particular to those people.
	It's particular to all social creatures that Propaganda, bonding, and the seeking of peer approval are very important motivators.
	Yes, definitely.
	But that's why I just found it a bit superfluous to lump the atheists, for example, in the social group, because anyway, yes, they are like most people.
	Well, wait, sorry, but now you're saying superfluous.
	Yes.
	Which, first of all, is a very good word to use if it's not your native language.
	But secondly, you're still dodging the accuracy question.
	Is it accurate?
	Yeah, it's accurate, but anyway, it's going to be accurate about anybody.
	About any group that you could find if you wanted to talk about, I don't know, rap people or writers or, I don't know, bus drivers.
	No, no, but you're misunderstanding the categories.
	Whether willfully or not, I don't know, but you are misunderstanding the categories.
	I did not say that all Christians are anarchists and all atheists are socialists.
	No, no, no.
	Sure.
	So the fact that they're all pro-state, okay, fine, but there's still degrees of pro-state.
	I mean, the founding fathers were pro-state.
	That doesn't make them Leon Trotsky and Vladimir Lenin.
	No, no, I get that, yeah.
	Alright.
	Anything else?
	I had two other questions, but I guess it will be for another time.
	Alright.
	Thank you very much for your call.
	I appreciate it.
	And your English is probably better than you think it is.
	But thank you.
	Thank you.
	Bye.
	Bye.
	Alright.
	Up next is Jeremy.
	Jeremy wrote in and said, I'm starting a business in the tech field.
	And given that you have experience in this field, do you have any advice on how to get and keep customers?
	Ah, how to get and keep customers.
	Well, it shouldn't be a mystery because we're all customers long before we're entrepreneurs, right?
	So do you have any...
	Well, let me ask you this.
	Do you donate to this show?
	I donated in 2014 probably $200 or $300.
	And this year I have not, only because I was laid off at the end of 2014.
	Well, first of all, that's incredibly generous, Jeremy, and I appreciate that.
	And you were officially off the hook for donating a single penny in 2015.
	I appreciate that.
	Hey, if all the listeners donated a couple of hundred bucks, well, I'd obviously be broadcasting from a gold throne.
	Perched on top of a human pyramid of sycophants.
	So I appreciate that generosity and that's very kind.
	And I'll do what I can to help you get a job.
	Not to have you donate, but just out of gratitude for your support.
	So, why do you listen to this show?
	Because you're a customer, and that's why I asked you about the donations.
	Yeah, I feel like I get a lot out of it.
	I was turned on to your show, and I watched a video about you debating the Zeitgeist guy.
	Name escapes me right now.
	Peter Joseph, right.
	I watched what he was talking about.
	It sounded kind of interesting.
	But I could never figure out how it would really work.
	And then, you know, I watched the debate, and I was like, wow, this is very interesting.
	And so, that's how I got turned on to your show.
	And, yeah, I just feel like I get a lot out of it.
	Very interesting.
	No, and I appreciate that.
	But to break it down in sort of more detail, and, like, I'm not trying to sort of hoover up compliments about the show, though they're never hated or anything, but...
	You're a customer of the show and you return for more.
	And the reason I'm asking you to break that down is because that's what you want your customers to experience, right?
	Whatever positive thing you're getting, right?
	Yeah, creating an audience.
	So you invest, and so the money is obviously grateful.
	I'm grateful for it.
	But you invest time.
	Because when you're listening to this show...
	You're not listening to another show, right?
	You may be...
	Some people play video games or whatever, right?
	But you're not listening to two talk shows at the same time, right?
	Yeah.
	Well, I don't find them really that interesting.
	I guess, you know, there's only...
	Out of all the podcasts, there's only a handful that I really feel like is worth listening to.
	No, and I appreciate that.
	But even if that handful, when you're listening to this show, you're not listening to other shows.
	And so the question is...
	Why, of all the possible things that you could be doing, would you listen to this show?
	And if you can begin to really grok that for yourself, then I think you'll understand more about how to get and keep customers.
	So, I would assume it's because it is the most return you can get in the moment.
	And that's what people generally make their decisions by.
	And it's not a moral discussion, but just from a sort of pragmatic standpoint, you know, if you're tired, you may say, I'm gonna have a nap, right?
	In other words, a nap is the most valuable thing you could do for yourself in the moment, right?
	And understanding that is, I think, the key to gaining and keeping customers.
	Because I'm fully aware that, I mean, I was pretty early on in the podcast game.
	I think we got into it in 2006, which is only a couple of years after the specs came out.
	But the reality is there's like thousands of channels and like, I don't know, probably millions and millions of YouTube channels to name just one of many venues.
	And everybody wants you to listen to their show and everybody, right?
	So I'm competing with, it seems like every third person has some sort of show on the internet.
	I'm competing with everyone.
	And the question is, how do I get people to listen to my show rather than someone else's?
	Well, first of all, I have to believe that it is in people's best interest to listen to my show.
	I have to genuinely believe that.
	Because otherwise I'm just pulling one off on people, right?
	Oh, you'd be better off listening to some other show, but I'm going to trick or fool you into trying to listen to this show by, you know, horror-based clickbaiting.
	Anyway, that's another topic.
	So I have to genuinely believe that I provide the best value...
	Not 24-7, but I provide the best value for people to listen to this conversation.
	And I genuinely believe that.
	I'm not going to pretend otherwise.
	I believe that this show gives the best value for people who invest their time and energy into it than any other show.
	I mean, just listen back to that last call.
	I mean, this guy, I think, ended up light years ahead in terms of self-knowledge and where he wants to go and who he wants to date and all that.
	His problems aren't all solved.
	You know, the light's on, and now he can find his way.
	And I think that's a remarkable thing to achieve in an hour, and I think hundreds of thousands of other people will be hugely helped by that, millions over time, hundreds of millions over more time if all goes well.
	And I think that there is, to me, no other show that can provide that kind of value.
	I'm just telling you that.
	And so, if you genuinely believe that you are providing the best at what it is that you're doing, I don't provide the best gardening show, right?
	I don't provide the best sports show.
	I would probably be pretty much the worst conceivable at those particular endeavors.
	But At what I do, in the way that I do it, I think I'm the best.
	And that may, obviously, it's not to everyone's taste, and I could be completely wrong, but I believe that.
	And I think there's good reasons to believe that.
	Like, show's doing aight.
	And so, if you want to gain and keep customers, you have to tell them, in your own mind, you don't have to tell them directly, but you have to be telling them in your own mind, for what you want, I'm the best.
	You have to believe that.
	And it has to not be like magical thinking, right?
	But you have to believe that you're the best for them, that you provide the greatest value for them.
	And I don't know how it is that you're going to add value in your software.
	But the people who play Candy Crush, that is the best way They can kill time while they're crapping.
	I don't know when they play it, but that is the best way that they can do it.
	I mean, I do bike machine cardio every other day, 30-35 minutes.
	It's boring as shit.
	It really is.
	It's just maintenance for your body.
	I do sports too, but this is just something I just sort of have to do.
	The reality is that that is the best time.
	That's the very best thing that they could do is boot up Candy Crush and listen to that creepy guy who does the audio.
	Excellent.
	He just sounds like somebody...
	Sweet.
	Sweet.
	It's like, stop looking at my daughter.
	Sweet.
	It's like, ew!
	Keep your hands out of your pockets, Mr.
	Raincoat Man.
	Delicious.
	Delicious.
	Hey!
	Stop peering through that smoky shower window.
	Sweet.
	What else did she say?
	I can't remember this.
	Something else.
	I haven't played that in so long.
	Color bomb.
	Hey!
	It's the kind of guy you drop the soap when you're around him in the communal shower.
	It stays on the ground.
	But that's the best use of time that they have.
	And, you know, the Candy Cash guys, I mean, the visual, the audio, the, you know, the variety and the level design and all that, I mean, there's a reason they make like $850,000 a day or whatever crazy sum it is that they make from people twitching on buying extra lives or whatever they buy.
	So they genuinely believe it and the market agrees with them.
	Now, if you don't believe it, it's not going to happen.
	But the market won't follow what you don't believe, for sure.
	And this is everything.
	So, you know, the guy who's running the seventh McDonald's in the mile, he's got to believe that his McDonald's is the best if he wants the most customers.
	And he's got to just not have the belief but make it work.
	Make it so.
	So when I was in software, I believed that the clients would have the best time and get the best software from working with us.
	I genuinely believe that.
	And I worked really hard to make that not bullshit.
	I mean, I was like, this is way back in the 90s.
	I had, you could design your own reports.
	You could sort and organize and create your own queries.
	You could output to word processors and spreadsheets.
	I had a whole interface that you built a database and it would throw up a complete web interface for you with navigation, add, edit, delete, and all that.
	And all of that was automated.
	I mean, I made some really kick-ass.
	Somewhere I've got actually demos of all this crap, which would be interesting.
	When I'm immortal to go and look at it.
	But, I mean, this is like 17 or 18 years ago and this was like crazy, radical, excellent, amazing stuff back in the day.
	And it was great.
	It was great software and very powerful and very customizable and good stuff all around.
	Was that your...
	Can I interrupt?
	Yeah, please.
	Was that your first attempt at software?
	Did you have other ideas that you fleshed out and just didn't pan out before that?
	Oh, no.
	My first attempt at software was creating a space exploration game on a 2K pet.
	And then I tried to create Missile Commander using only 80 by 25 ASCII graphics.
	And then I created a Zork-style adventure game, and then I created a lunar landing simulator.
	I mean, so I did various text and graphic manipulations all throughout my early teens.
	And then, of course, I did Dungeons& Dragons character gen and adventure simulators and all that kind of stuff.
	So, I mean, I'd have done a whole bunch of stuff way back in the day.
	And...
	Go ahead.
	Sorry.
	Was the software that you're talking about you had commercial success with?
	Was that your first attempt at a commercial, I guess, product?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	But that, I mean, that took years to...
	The first stuff was pretty rudimentary.
	But as the years went by, I wanted...
	I wanted to be able to, and I've always wanted this in my life, Jeremy, I wanted to be able to stand in front of people and say, I mean, you could buy other people's software, but seriously?
	I mean, let me show you this, and let me show you this, and let me show you this, and just give them so much great stuff.
	That they're like, oh man, forget it.
	Like, whoever comes in afterwards, you know, it's like, well, Freddie Mercury's done, I guess I'll go do some karaoke.
	That's what I want, you know, for people to, like, no way would we buy someone else's stuff.
	And so, and this is, I didn't find out long after this, I think it's Steve Jobs' phrase, like, insanely great.
	Like, so great that people just, like, They have to change their genes after the presentation.
	If you can stand in front of customers and with your whole heart say, this is the best you're going to get.
	And not only is this the best you're going to get now, this is the best you're going to get in the future.
	This is back in the days of ActiveX embedded controls.
	I don't think people use that stuff that much anymore, but I would literally spend weekends surfing and buying.
	You couldn't even get much code from the web back in the day.
	The web is mid-90s.
	It started to get its feet.
	But I would go out and I would buy books.
	I'd go to the bookstore.
	I'd go to the computer section.
	And I'd buy all the Windows books with the CDs in the back that had ActiveX controls, which you could drop into your own software.
	And I would just install and test and play and see what we could figure out.
	I'd buy like insane graphing ActiveX controls to just see what beautiful, crazy, n-dimensional stuff we could put in front of people to help visualize their data.
	I mean, I just loved building all of that stuff and exploring all of that stuff and building encapsulated stuff that we could put into other people's programs and building...
	Layers and shells we could put over Java to call it from Windows.
	I mean, just really cool.
	To me, it was just fantastic, cool stuff.
	It was like this giant gallery of insanely beautiful stuff that I just wanted to keep adding to and just make it so ridiculously great.
	Put automated code in so every time there was a number you could double click on it and build up a calculator field because people were telling me that they were having to go to external calculators and type stuff in.
	Or just silly little stuff that's so common now automatically have the code generated so every time you click on a date field anywhere you get a nice pop-up calendar that means that you can't enter the wrong date with leap years and all that stuff built in.
	I just loved building all of that stuff so that I could build things in so people were like, oh, I need the data to validate this way or that way.
	It's like, well, we could do it for you, but in the end, I just built this whole tool that anytime anything happened on any of the boxes on the screen, it would fire validation options.
	You could build your own validation code.
	Like, well, you can't save the record if this field is blank or if this field is between this number and this number, it's too high or too low.
	It might be a warning.
	It might be an actual you-can't-save-if.
	So giving people the power to not just use our software but to change our software so it became a development environment for them wherein they didn't need any code.
	They could build their own forms and screens and dropdowns and lookups and validation codes and all that.
	So the designer team ended up just working within an entire development environment that I'd built up that was both desktop and web enabled.
	And so I was able to stand in front of customers and say, Look, I don't know what these other clowns are showing you.
	I mean, I didn't because you never dissed the competition, right?
	Because let their lack of mania for insanely great stuff do that for them.
	But you just build like insanely great stuff and always listen to the users because they are the ones who pay the bills and just keep hitting them with insanely great stuff until like, why would I go anywhere?
	Like, why would I go anywhere else?
	What would the point be?
	Because they're not mental for greatness.
	And so if you get that kind of mental for greatness stuff, then you will just build stuff that is irresistible to people.
	And particularly, of course, in the long run, if you can, like Minecraft, you build the mod-able communities of people who can create and expand and extend your stuff, that's pretty high-tech stuff in the long run.
	But that approach of just making it, you know, excellence is just a gravity well for people's preferences.
	And you just keep like, oh, it does this too?
	Oh my god, it does.
	Okay, I'll just take it.
	You know what I mean?
	Let me ask you this.
	Initially, did you do a lot of advertising or did you start, you know, one customer at a time?
	Well, initially, yeah.
	We did some advertising and we did some, you know, you go to, I mean, it's cheesy marketing 101, but it works.
	You know, you go to, you find conferences that are in your field.
	And you go and you set up a booth and you just snag people down.
	And, you know, you offer them a free iPod Touch if they put their card in.
	Into your jar.
	And again, I don't know if this stuff is still done.
	I mean, maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
	This is sort of back in the day.
	And then, you know, you give out your iPod Touch and you've got like 400 cards of people you can cold call and say, hey, remember me from?
	And maybe you had a brochure and you can give people demos of your software live there.
	And so that...
	So the insanely great part is...
	Is important.
	Because the end user experience of interacting with whatever you build is really important.
	So that's number one.
	But that's not going to...
	I mean, if you're selling at the corporate level, that's not going to make anyone write you a check.
	Because the users can be in love with your software.
	But the CFO or whoever's going to sign that check or cut that order, it's not like they don't care about the user experience, but that's not what motivates them.
	So the one way is just create insanely great stuff.
	And that's more for like iPads or whatever, right?
	Or Android tablets.
	They're not return on investment stuff.
	You know, Candy Crush isn't, oh look, I'm making money from Candy Crush.
	It's like, no, I'm spending money on Candy Crush.
	But that's sort of consumer electronics.
	So if you're selling that stuff, then it's just insanely great user experiences.
	And that's just like constantly reinventing the wheel, constantly thinking about new ways of doing things, constantly thinking about making things better for the user.
	And just being aware of new GUI designs or new interface designs or new ways that you can use whatever it is.
	I think browsers are used for delivery of a lot of this stuff now.
	Browsers always have these amazing new capabilities and so on.
	So anyway, number two, if you're selling anything that is supposed to Return a profit if you're selling B2B or business to business, sorry, if you're selling to a corporation or something like that, then the user experience is still really important, but you need to build a business case.
	And the business case is basically simple.
	You're not paying me money, I'm giving you money.
	And you wouldn't put it that way because that's too on the nose, but that's basically the reality of the situation, is that they're going to give you $10,000 for your piece of software, and But you're going to show them how you're going to save them $30,000 or $40,000 using your software.
	And that you need real facts.
	You need end user studies, you need an analysis, you need to study a workflow ahead of time and then say how it changes after you put your software in.
	So you can say, look, this is not a cost, this is an investment.
	This is an investment like you can have an engineer who doesn't have a computer, right?
	But he's a very expensive engineer.
	And you say, well, we've got to spend $3,000 to buy him a top-of-the-line computer and then another $1,000 for AutoCAD or whatever it is, right?
	And you say, well, yeah, but if you don't spend the $4,000 on that engineer, it's going to cost you $40,000 a year because he's going to work so slowly.
	And so...
	You're not spending $40,000.
	Sorry, you're not spending $4,000 to buy a computer and AutoCAD.
	You're saving $36,000 a year.
	Or in the first year or whatever, right?
	I mean, you could not heat your building, I guess, in winter, but productivity is going to go down as people slowly freeze to their keyboards, right?
	At least up here in Canada.
	So...
	The insanely great end user experience and features and fun doinky boinky stuff is great.
	The beeps and burps, as they used to say in the sales department.
	But when it comes to being an entrepreneur, you are not taking money.
	You are giving money.
	You are giving money to people.
	You are a fountain of money.
	You are, you know, they buy your stuff, they've won the lottery.
	And that requires being really strict.
	About solving expensive problems in the business world.
	That's, I mean, that has to be your fetish.
	Like, I don't want to take your money.
	I want to give you money.
	I don't want to be a cost.
	I want to be an investment.
	And I don't want you ever to have buyer's remorse.
	I want you to look back and say, man, I mean, the day I decided to buy ABC piece of software was like the greatest day.
	So, I mean, we did, um, I won't get into the details because I bore everyone's pants, although I loved it.
	So we did environmental software and we had consultants who gave half price for their services if customers were using our software because we trained them on the software and it made their work process and workflow more efficient and effective and so on.
	So instead of paying 3,000 bucks for something.
	You are paying 1,500 bucks for something.
	And if you do that a certain number of times every quarter, the software pays for itself in X number of quarters.
	And you try and keep that to four or below if you can, right?
	And reasonably and believably.
	And so you simply have to find creative ways.
	And that may not be directly between you and the customer.
	It may be you through a partner to the customer.
	Find other people who can get involved and make your...
	Your software, your platform, and infrastructure which people can work within to achieve savings for themselves and for others.
	So the reason that the consultants would give half price on their services is because our software made their services easier to provide.
	It was a complete win-win.
	We got our money, the customers saved $1,500 an audit, and the people who did the software, who did the audit, saved $500 an audit, which is why they were able to offer it for less.
	So that's the kind of stuff where it's just win-win all the way around because you don't You don't want to be in a position where people have to hum and whore to buy your stuff.
	It's like...
	I mean, come on.
	This is like...
	You've got to be kidding.
	You're not going to go...
	Like, why would you not buy it?
	And so sometimes we'd lose sales because of weird things like...
	There's a sudden strike or something unanticipated and so on.
	But generally, if you can make the case compellingly, consistently validated, backed up, here's the data, here are the references, here's the facts, here's our report on the ROI and so on.
	And I remember building entire tools.
	I mean, I remember spending weeks and weeks building one screen.
	And one screen was input all the variables and And it outputs a 25-page report complete with graphs on the entire business case as to why a customer should buy this software.
	And, I mean, salespeople loved it.
	I mean, they would edit it and this and that.
	But basically, that's the raw material for how to make the sale.
	Because you don't want to convince someone to buy your software.
	The facts have to speak for themselves.
	You're simply introducing the facts and the numbers and the math About what it is you're doing to people.
	And again, you're not charging them money.
	You are saving them money.
	And you are enhancing their experience of going to work.
	It's more fun to go to work.
	It's cheaper.
	It's more efficient.
	And they're not spending their time doing diddly little stuff.
	But they are spending their time doing more enjoyable stuff.
	You know, it's the old thing.
	Buy our tax software and then go play catch with your son or daughter.
	So instead of pouring through all these charts and graphs and looking stuff up in thick books and so on, you tab through all this, you enter your numbers, you file it electronically, and you're out playing catch with your son.
	Because people would rather play catch with their son than work on their taxes.
	So I'm sorry for the long speech and so on, but if you have that perspective as an entrepreneur and you're just willing to There's no two ways about it.
	Work like a dog to achieve what it is that you say, then it's, I think, sort of irresistible.
	You can't fail to succeed if you do all of that.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, it does.
	The books I've been reading about, I mean, it sort of echoes some of the same things.
	And, I mean, I think those are the important points.
	You know, create products people can't resist.
	And I didn't, you know, I didn't really think about framing it that way, you know, talking to a business customer.
	It's not about you spending money.
	It's about how much is going to save you.
	I mean, I guess that thought had crossed my mind, but how important it is to sort of hammer that home if I am B2B, you know, for the company I'm selling to.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I would say that it's changed.
	Some of the marketing's changed and the way that you can market to people is a lot cheaper now, the internet.
	Yeah.
	And so there's a lot more options.
	So that's why I was kind of curious to see about how you were able to be successful.
	Well, you know, as far as this show goes, you know, years and years ago when I used to sell books and pay for advertising and then I just decided since I was making, I was paying about as much in advertising for the show as I was making from selling the books.
	So I thought, well, forget that.
	I mean, just give the books away.
	And that'll be my advertising.
	And it was a very good decision.
	Now we've got like 50, 100,000 book downloads a month and they're all being handed around and shared.
	People read.
	Hopefully appreciate the quality of work and thought that went into the books.
	Come listen to the show.
	End up donating at freedomainradio.com slash donate.
	And I never looked back.
	I think it was a great decision.
	And so these kinds of just different ways of doing things, trying to sort of think, quote, outside the box.
	Giving books away for free, of course, a lot easier with the internet than it was beforehand.
	Although, for many years, if anybody wanted a free copy of, or copies of any of my books, I would just send it to them.
	Like the physical books, I just pay for it and send it to them.
	And so, I think just generosity and goodwill do create a kind of reciprocal obligation in society.
	Everyone except sociopaths, I think, in the long run.
	You know, we are social creatures, and generosity begets generosity in most people.
	And so, you know, don't be afraid to be generous.
	Anyway, so is there anything else that I can help you with regards to the software-y thing?
	No, I just...
	I did have something I disagreed with the last caller.
	He said that there's no chess players that are anti-state, and I want to mention that Garry Kasparov is pro-capitalism.
	I don't know that he's necessarily totally anti-state, but I just wanted to mention that.
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, I assume that a lot of the Russian guys who grew up under communism is...
	Not exactly prostate.
	So, no, I can certainly get that.
	And thanks very much for your time.
	You are very welcome.
	Thank you so much for the call.
	And I will talk to everyone, I guess, relatively soon, if you would like to help out the show.
	Freedomainradio.com slash donate, where you can sign up for the low, low price of a couple of bucks a month, 10, 5, 10, 20, or more.
	I would really, really appreciate it, as would we all who rely upon your generosity for food, shelter, and the occasional loincloth for casual Fridays.
	So, freedomainradio.com slash donate.
	Really, really appreciate that, and have yourselves a wonderful, wonderful week, everyone.

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