2853 Alpha Males vs. Beta Males - Saturday Call In Show November 29th, 2014
Should it be a crime to use force against someone who is hurting an animal? My girlfriend broke up with me because she said I was too passive and dependent – how do I get her to understand that this simply is not true? What do you do if your romantic partner can never admit that they are wrong? Includes: Danny Devito fighting a Great Dane, get off my lawn – or I’ll shoot, there is no omniscient god of ethics, don’t fog me bro, passing shit tests, selling eggs on the open market, the danger of gratitude, biological divers for romantic attraction, passivity is not a virtue, trading eggs for resources, beauty as power, don’t impregnate somebody out of pitty, white-knighting, refusal to give individuals moral agency, climbing out of poverty and donating a Ferrari to Freedomain Radio.
It is late November 2014, and I hope you're having a great night.
And I hope that should you be listening to this live, baby, live, or if you are listening to it later, that we help you have an even better night, morning, nooner, mid-afternoon siesta, or whatever you're doing with philosophy in your life as it stands.
Mike, who do we have on first?
All right.
Up first today is Brett.
Brett wrote in and said, Should it be a crime to use force against someone who is hurting an animal?
Is it immoral of me to forcibly intervene in an act of animal cruelty?
Hmm.
Very interesting question.
What do you think?
Great to finally get to speak to you.
I'm very excited about that.
Let's hope it stays great for both of our sakes, but no, that's nice to hear.
So my question was, I kind of prepared a question which is a bit longer than that, but it's pretty much in essence what I was going to ask.
So it's a question that I've been struggling to answer for quite a long time, and I haven't really made much progress with it.
Hang on, have you ever encountered this situation in your life?
How do you mean?
Well, have you ever seen someone...
Who's currently in the act of being cruel to an animal and had some sort of weapon or some sort of impulse to do something about it?
Yeah, I've seen a lot of videos on YouTube.
No, no, no, no.
Porn is not sex, and watching is not the same as doing.
So what I'm saying is, in your life, have you encountered a situation...
I'm not trying to dismiss the question, I'm just asking in general.
So in your life, have you been in a situation where you have...
The capacity and willingness to use force, and you are in the presence of someone whose behavior you can affect, who is, as you are looking and mulling in the process of harming an animal.
I have not been in that situation, no.
You know what the next question is, right?
Is it an important question?
Look, I think theoretically it's an important question, but you sound, just based on what you were telling me, you sound like...
This has really consumed some cycles for you, right?
And my question is why?
And look, you may have a fantastic reason.
I just want to understand if we're dealing purely in the realm of theory or if there's some reason why this has become so important to you.
It's purely in the realm of theory.
It's because I'm a libertarian and I think having the view of a libertarian It's kind of, you have to prepare a lot of answers, and people will challenge you to have the answers to everything when you try and express your ideas.
And one of the answers is...
Hang on, hang on.
Look, I get, of course.
I mean, there's six billion times infinity questions of how is this handled in a libertarian society?
How are these ethics handled?
How are these situations handled?
And so on, right?
And I guess my question is, what's wrong with not having an answer for you?
Well, because I really enjoy thinking about ethics and trying to construct an idea in my head of an ideal living situation within a community and how that would function.
And this is one of the few questions that I struggle to answer.
So that's kind of why it's important to me, because I enjoy it.
But in terms of practical uses, I probably won't ever have a practical use for it.
Okay, just so we're clear on that, that the scale of importance, it's not that high.
Not because we shouldn't be nice to animals.
Of course we should, right?
But because, you know, compared to something like, do you know someone who spanks or yells at their child?
And people will say, yeah, probably, right?
Yes, I do.
And...
That's something that people can do something about and should.
So just about everyone in the world knows somebody who yells at, spanks, punishes, confines, puts in a naughty corner and so on, gives a time out to a child and that's something you can do something about.
So my question, I'm happy to explore this question but just in general, I rely upon, is it actionable?
Is it common in terms of the hierarchy of what's important to talk about in terms of ethics?
Sure, it's actionable.
If you see someone doing something cruel to an animal, you can say or do something about it.
Is it common?
Well, no.
My whole life, I've never seen anyone directly where I can do something about it, seen anyone directly.
It's sort of like, how do libertarian societies handle meteor strikes in major metropolitan areas?
It's like, okay, you all fuss with that stuff.
I'm going to try and get people to stop yelling at and hitting their children, which is something that is very common and very, very actionable for people, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so, and the reason I'm saying that is just so when you get pinned to the wall with all of these Never going to happen, couldn't ever change anyone's behavior.
I think it's important to go back to proportionality.
So if you were asking me this question and you were not a listener or not a friend or whatever, then I might say, so is your concern cruelty to helpless animals, right?
Well, yeah.
Okay.
So what's more common, animal cruelty or spanking and yelling at kids?
Well, spanking and yelling at kids is more common.
And then I'd say, well, given that that's far more common, shouldn't we be discussing that?
And I just give you that option when it comes to talking to people.
Always try to reorient them, if you can, back towards common and actionable, if that makes sense.
Because otherwise, the concern is you burn up a lot of cycles dealing with the unactionable or inconsequential.
And by inconsequential, I don't mean like unimportant morally.
I just mean it's not going to change your behavior because you're most likely never going to see it, right?
And my concern then is if people keep hitting you with these inconsequential and unactionable moral issues, then you're going to run off and work on them.
And what have they done?
They've effectively neutered you in the realm of actionable ethics.
Does that make sense?
I agree with that, yes.
But I do think it has some relevance in the world we live in today because...
No, I'm already annoyed.
I'm already annoyed.
Oh, no.
Did I say it has no relevance?
No.
No, so don't tell me it has some relevance.
I didn't say it has no relevance.
Okay.
Right, so if I say, well, you know, it's not quite as important.
Okay, so if you get to the third highest peak...
It's not as high as going for the highest peak and you say, well, but it's still above sea level.
It's like, yes, I know.
I haven't denied that.
I agree with you that it's not unimportant.
I just want to reorient you outside of this conversation with people to say, listen, if cruelty or harm against helpless animals is your issue, then baby, toddler and child abuse should be first on your list for two reasons.
One is that it's common and it's actionable and two is that if you want...
Cruelty to animals to diminish in this world, what do you first need to do?
You need to diminish cruelty to children because it's children who are treated cruelly who grow up and sometimes even while they're children are cruel to animals, right?
The correlation between cruelty to animals and child abuse is so strong and so causal that Anyone who wants to deal with the problem of abuse against animals who is unwilling or unable to deal – or just unwilling to deal with the problem of child abuse is not really interested in solving the problem.
I'm not putting you in that category.
I'm just saying that if you deal with cruelty against children, then you deal with just about every other social ill except for the aforementioned comets hitting major metropolises.
You've dealt with just about every social ill.
Okay, so I appreciate you letting me have that little rant, and now I'm certainly happy to try and tackle the issue.
I mean, you've obviously spent some time thinking about it.
What are your thoughts?
Well, I think that it's...
I think that it's an innate human response to want to protect animals from abuse.
So I don't think that we can condemn anyone for doing that.
And I don't think somebody that does that would be a particular threat in society that would need either punishing or we'd need protection from.
But on the other hand, Excuse me.
I'm just checking my notes.
So, is it okay to use force to stop someone hurting an animal?
The way I see it is, if the answer is yes, then it would obligate us to construct extremely complex and convoluted laws As we would have to set guidelines for farmers, animal breeders and pet owners.
And these laws are going to be very hard to agree on and cause a lot of controversy within the farming industry.
But if the answer is no, it's not okay to use force to protect animals against abuse, then it would mean that anyone who did use force to prevent animal abuse, say for instance a man restraining another man who was beating a dog, We'd have to deem that man's actions as immoral.
But should we judge that person as having done wrong in that situation?
Is it not a completely natural response for humans to want to protect other animals and to stop abuse when we see it?
We all agree that if it was a human that was being beaten, then it would be justifiable to use force to stop the attack.
But should we not extend that to animals?
Can we condemn someone for using force in order to stop animal abuse?
So that's as far as I've got.
Right.
So, not conclusive, which is tough to do in these situations, of course, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so let's...
There's a continuum here.
I think we have to grant that.
For instance, I don't get to shoot a child who's about to step on a ladybug, right?
Yes.
I mean, I think that we can understand that.
I'm allowed to slap a mosquito, I assume?
Yeah, sure.
I'm allowed to destroy a wasp nest that is being built over my baby's crib or something like that.
I mean, we are allowed to use, you know, hopefully organically friendly pesticides to get rid of pests that would otherwise eat our food.
I'm allowed to deny my milk to bacteria by putting it in the fridge.
Hmm.
I'm allowed to take antibiotics and kill bacteria within my system that is doing me harm, right?
Yeah.
So I think in any contest between human and animal, you know, call me speciesist, I come down on the side of the two-legged.
You know, two legs good, not so much with the other legs, right?
So if a man shoots a tiger that is mauling him, I don't think that many of us would say, Bad.
Bad man!
Absolutely, that's true.
But in all those examples, the person is protecting themselves against the animal.
No, no, no, no, no.
No, because I talked about a child who is stepping on a ladybug as well.
The child is not protecting herself from the ladybug, right?
True, but that's in the realms of somebody just going about their life.
That's unavoidable.
But how about somebody that's deliberately...
No, no, no.
What if the child is looking and trying to step on the ladybug?
Like, consciously, willingly.
Well, if your daughter was doing that, would you stop her or would you let her continue?
I would attempt to stop her verbally...
I would not feel comfortable grabbing her and pulling her away.
And she would...
I mean, she'd never do anything like that.
I mean, she's actually...
She's never injured an animal, to my knowledge or to her knowledge, her whole life.
So this is sort of part of, you know, treat kids well and they'll protect fiercely animals and so on.
So I just sort of want to point out...
So self-defense in the realm of animals is obviously completely fine.
If...
Let's say if a man is starving and an animal is the only thing he can eat, I find hard to condemn him to death rather than have him eat the animal, just to put an artificial situation in.
I mean if a man is starving and there's only another person he can eat, that's – I remember when I was a kid reading this story about guys whose plane crashed in the Andes and they ended up having to eat the dead passengers.
Now, I mean obviously that's pretty tragic.
But cannibalism, not so good, right?
And cannibalism to me has a different kind of flavor from eating a salmon or whatever, right?
It has different flavors, probably the wrong way of putting it.
And I've sort of made the case for animal rights or the relative rights of animals to people in other places.
So obviously between humans and animals, and if people got to eat, I'm on the side of human beings.
I think that animals, if they're going to be eaten, should...
Live as free as possible and then be killed as humanely as possible and so on.
But I think what you're talking about is someone who owns a dog is beating the dog, you know, with a stick, lashing the dog with a stick and so on.
Well, that is horrible and that makes my blood boil, you know, just from an emotional standpoint.
I just find that hideous, just unbelievably cruel.
So vicious and so cowardly and so bullying.
Because it's not really – unless it's Danny DeVito and it's a Great Dane, it's just not really a fair fight.
So I think that I would be willing to use – and I think that you could justify the use of force to prevent someone from harming an animal.
But I would not raise it to the level of lethal force.
And this is a question of proportionality for which is a gray area.
And I'm just going to give you my thoughts.
This would be worked out in a free society over time and would become very quickly a non-issue as children were treated better and better.
But for instance, if a little boy – like when I was a kid, I stole a candy bar from a store and would – Would the store owner have been justified in shooting me if he saw me leaving and I didn't stop when he called me to stop?
You know, let's say he's some old guy who can't run.
He calls me to stop and he sees me.
Is he allowed to take a shotgun out and blow me away?
No.
It's a candy bar, right?
And I'm a kid.
I think the important thing there is that you're a child.
Well, I don't know that it's that important.
I mean, if a homeless adult is stealing a candy bar, do you get to shoot him too?
I wouldn't feel comfortable with that.
No, I don't.
Really?
Shooting someone over a candy bar?
Do you think that's a bit of a heavy hand?
Because I think it either is or isn't immoral to protect your property by any means you feel necessary.
And I think it isn't immoral to protect your property by any means necessary.
Oh no, come on, come on.
If somebody takes a shortcut across your property, technically they're trespassing, do you get to shoot them?
Well, I mean, I wouldn't, but I don't think it's immoral not to.
I think it's kind of immoral not to.
I think it's kind of immoral not to.
Because you have to draw a distinction between is it immoral or not.
And you can't say, yeah, it is moral.
No, no, no, no, no.
But just because – hang on, hang on.
Just because something's immoral doesn't mean that the death penalty can be invoked.
Right?
I mean, lying about something important could be considered immoral.
If I underpay you by a penny – That's immoral, but not to the point where you then get to shoot people, right?
Well, if somebody's in your garden at nighttime and you feel threatened, so you get your gun out and shoot him, who am I to say that what you've done is over-excessive?
Oh, I'm definitely someone to say that that's over-excessive.
He's on your copsy.
The guy could have taken bad medication and could be disoriented.
He might have dementia.
He might be drunk.
He might be thinking he's in the right house, but he's in the wrong house.
I mean there could be six million, quote, guilty or innocent explanations as to why someone could be in your backyard.
They might have just been kidnapped and released and they're disoriented.
They might be blindfolded.
They might – like who knows, right?
They might have had a head injury.
Like you can't just go shooting people in your backyard.
I disagree with you.
I think if you own a piece of land and anyone comes on that land, then you have the right to protect it any way you see fit.
You said protect it.
What do you mean, protect it?
Protect your land.
But the person in your backyard is not damaging your land.
Well, maybe you've just planted some flowers.
You know, maybe...
Oh, seriously, you're not shooting people because they might be stepping on your flowers, right?
I mean, you've got to understand at some point this is going to get absurd, right?
I just think that you have to make a distinction.
You can't just have all these convoluted ideas that this is okay and this isn't.
Wait, wait, wait, hang on, hang on.
Why are you calling my ideas convoluted?
That seems like an insult to me.
Well, no, it's not an insult.
I'm just saying that...
It's not a compliment.
It kind of seems like you're saying, this is okay, but that's not okay.
And in this situation, there's going to be all these different rules about what you can do.
And I think it just has to be clear-cut.
It's either right or wrong.
No, it's not clear-cut, though.
That's what you don't understand.
There's no god of ethics.
There's no God of ethics.
Let's say I feel like shooting someone, right?
And I see someone passing by the street, and there's nobody else around, let's just say, right?
There's nobody else around.
Somebody's passing by my street, and I say, hey, listen, I'm sorry to bother you.
Could you help me for just a second?
I really appreciate it.
My cat is stuck up the tree or whatever it is, right?
And then they come onto my property, right?
And then I shoot them.
And I say, they came on my property.
Nobody can say that, right?
Who could disprove me?
Yeah, but you invited him on.
But who can disprove me?
Nobody.
Think of it.
There's no god of ethics.
There is only what we can prove and what we cannot prove.
Okay.
Right?
So the Michael Brown-Darren Wilson interaction was 90 seconds long.
Right?
From him saying to Michael Brown and his friend get off the street, walk on the sidewalk, to Michael Brown being dead.
90 seconds.
There were Many eyewitnesses.
There was some cell phone footage after the fact.
And it still took three months to even get an approximation of what happened, which is still highly contentious, even with eyewitnesses, right?
Same thing with Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman, right?
Just to take two of sort of the most obvious cases.
There was a white guy today shot by a black cop.
Of course, that's all over the news because we live in opposite universe.
But...
So there is no god of ethics.
There's no omniscient god of ethics.
There's what you can prove and what you can't.
There's what's established.
So I could invite someone onto my property.
I could shoot them.
They're now dead.
And I could say they were on my property.
I didn't invite them.
Nobody can disprove what I said and I have now, quote, gotten away with murder, right?
Yeah.
And That's a problem, right?
If you have a situation where anyone sets foot in your property, you can shoot them.
Let's put it this way too.
If I am in a convenience store and I say, hey kid, you look hungry.
Have a candy bar for free, right?
There's nobody else in the store.
No video cameras.
Nobody passing by.
And I say, hey kid, have a candy bar for free.
The kid walks out and I blow him away.
And I said, he took that candy bar.
Who could disprove me?
I mean, but you could almost discredit any law by saying that though.
Because the kid could say, the shop owner said I could have the candy bar for free.
Who could disprove that?
Well, sure.
Absolutely.
And generally, in those situations, we would probably tend to believe the adult.
In general.
I mean, whatever.
I mean, there would be, of course, absolutely.
But this is why you don't shoot the kid who's leaving the store.
Because you don't know what has led up to it.
You don't know what the facts are.
Right.
So you don't think people have the right to shoot people that trespass on their property?
Well, I think they do.
I absolutely think they do.
Do you think they should?
No.
If there is credible threat, right?
In other words, if someone comes onto your property, shoots open your door, kicks it in, Then, yes, you can shoot that person because that is a credible threat.
And there's evidence then, right?
I mean, there's gunpowder residue on your door.
It's been kicked in and so on, right?
Now, of course, you can stage and elaborate this, that, and the other and after all that.
But the reality is that there's then credible physical evidence that the person poses an immediate threat, right?
An imminent and immediate.
And this stuff, we don't have to invent all of this stuff.
This stuff is all developed in common law many, many times.
Centuries ago.
In fact, we don't have to reinvent the wheel here.
There is proportional response and there is a credible and imminent threat.
And so you absolutely get to shoot someone who's trespassing on your property.
For instance, if you're a woman and the property being trespassed upon is your vagina, yes, you get to shoot that person.
But if somebody...
You know, puts one foot on your driveway, of course you don't get to shoot them.
Because they pose no credible threat whatsoever.
And now you're initiating the use of force.
Did they step on your driveway?
Yeah, they stepped on your driveway.
Could be a mistake.
They could be confused.
They might not speak the language.
They might have read a different number on your house.
They may be new to town.
They may be whatever, right?
Or they may be, look, there are newspapers I don't even order that end up at my house.
And people come on my property to deliver them.
Do I get to shoot them?
I didn't order this.
They're trespassing.
Bang!
I mean, come on.
I'd be thrown in jail.
And rightly so.
People come and...
Oh yeah, Mike's got a point here.
Somebody...
They hit a baseball and it landed on my yard.
They come and grab it.
Or what about...
Okay, well, obviously this is...
A more complex situation with Jehovah's Witnesses.
I generally have just a trapdoor to a bookshelf full of atheist literature that's about 400 feet underground.
But people who come and ask for charity, people who come to you for selling things.
I had a ding in my car.
Guy knocked on the – and guy knocked on the door and said, hey, man, I can take that out for you.
Paid him 50 bucks.
He took the ding out of the side of my car.
It was great.
Hmm.
So, I mean, you might have forgotten you ordered something.
God, I've had that.
You know, something that takes like six weeks.
It could be six days.
I'll forget.
You order something small and it takes, I don't know, six weeks for delivery and then you completely forget about it.
Oh my God!
There's a UPS fan!
I mean, come on.
I mean, this is, it's not, you know, if somebody pokes you in the shoulder, do you get to shoot them in the head?
They're kind of initiating force.
It's uncomfortable, right?
But you don't get to – there's some proportional.
Now, there's some – whether you have to – so in Florida and other places, there's something called a stand-your-ground law.
Now, in some places, if you can escape from the situation, then that's what they think you should do, right?
So if a guy comes charging at you in a bar and you can run out the back and escape, then they say that's what you should do.
But in Florida and other places, the standard ground law says you don't have to budge an inch.
Someone comes charging at you, you don't move.
If somebody comes charging into your house, then if you can escape out the back, then you should do that.
I don't know about the house thing because that's kind of different.
They could then steal all your stuff, right?
So there is sort of proportional response and credible threat.
Again, I'm no legal expert, but these are, I think, fairly well defined.
And yeah, yeah, yeah, there will be some gray areas and blah, blah, blah, right?
But no, the idea that lethal force can be used for somebody, anybody setting foot on your property, I think is not a very rational or sustainable or provable situation.
And this credible threat is not, I felt threatened because I'm paranoid.
So there may be somebody who believes that you are a space alien who's come to suck their brains out through their nose with a curvy drinking straw.
And that person might have an insanity defense, but nobody would say, well, you felt threatened, and maybe he was trying to drink your brain out through your nose with a drinking straw.
You'd say, well, if you really felt that, you're not safe to be in society because then you are perceiving threats that don't exist and you're mentally ill and you need to not be in society.
You may not be punished, but you can't be in society because your brain is severely dysfunctional.
So no, this is when I say, if I see someone beating a dog, I'm appalled.
I actually would be happy to use, like, push him off and restrain him kind of force.
Am I going to put, you know, two between the eyes and one at the back of the head?
No.
I'm, you know, sorry.
I just...
And it's the same thing, like, if I saw a man beating a child, I would not shoot him.
Because that way, the child gets to see someone being shot.
And how, like, is that worse than being beaten?
Yeah, pretty much.
What if that's the child's father, and you have just shot the child's father right in front of the child?
I mean, do you think that's worse than getting beaten?
I think that to physically restrain such a person would be a good idea.
And then the punishment could be parenting classes or God forbid my show.
But the idea that I just take a baseball bat and cave the guy's skull in while his kid is cowering there, I don't think that would be to the benefit of the kid.
Now, if it's the dog's owner, I don't feel comfortable...
Killing a human being who is beating an animal.
I do feel comfortable using reasonable force to restrain that person and not letting that person have the dog back.
I feel that is reasonable because, I mean, partly out of I care about the dog.
I mean, I'm a huge softy when it comes to animals.
I care about the dog.
On the other hand, I'm also cognizant of the fact that if a man beats a dog, Then the dog is probably going to be a danger to society, right?
Because that dog is going to be traumatized and out and about and there will be kids and there will be old people.
There will be people in walkers and wheelchairs and – or just – I mean I remember I went hiking with my father when I was 16.
He's like a champion walker because he – and I was not the fittest guy in the world when I was 16.
I got better after that but I went – Hiking with my father and it was just like crazy climbing, climbing, climbing.
He was doing great.
I was sort of dragging myself up like Jabba the Hutt off a vertical climbing wall of razor blades.
But anyway, we came down and I guess much like Detroit, Africa is home to dog packs.
And the dogs were sort of launching themselves at us.
And I remember my dad kicking a dog to get it to go away.
I vividly, like very clearly remember that.
And I thought that was reasonable because the dogs could have been dangerous and it did send the dogs sort of chirping off.
And the other thing too, of course, is that people who publicly, like say in a free society, people who publicly do something to beat a dog or whatever, then someone's going to record that on a cell phone and post that to something like YouTube and that social ostracism is going to take Even if nobody decides to intervene?
I think where I've probably fallen down is that I've tried to construct these clear and easily definable lines between right and wrong.
And as far as I saw it, anything that fell kind of in between Well, no, no, it's a good – I'm sorry to interrupt you, and I'll be very brief.
But that's from the omniscient perspective.
This is one of the infections that religion has in the realm of ethics, is that we think we can construct these elaborate scenarios where the truth will always be known.
Like I invite a guy into my property and then I shoot him.
People will say, well, but you invited him onto your property.
But the problem is that there is no god of ethics.
It's what you can prove.
It's what you can establish.
You know, reasonable doubt, beyond a reasonable doubt, is 99% or more certainty.
I think in civil cases it's like 51% or something like that.
But...
When you say, well, I've got to have these rules and these punishments and so on, the problem is that you can't know things for sure in terms of empirical evidence.
I mean, look at how many people have looked at the JFK shooting.
Look at how many people have looked at 9-11.
Look at how many people have looked at the Boston bombings or the London bombings.
Look at how many people have looked at the two big racial incidents, Zimmerman and Brown.
Look at the number of people and they come off with wildly different situations.
Even eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable.
I mean, in the Michael Brown case, witnesses just changed their stories.
And according to people in the neighborhood, there were signs posted up at the apartment building saying, you talk to the cops, we'll kill you.
You tell the cops that Michael Brown didn't have his hands up, we'll shoot you.
Of course, reporters should be taking pictures of those and putting them on social media and all over the place so people understand the pressure that the local residents are under to conform to the narrative.
And the narrative, of course, has probably tens or hundreds of millions of dollars attached to it for a variety of government-based reasons.
But you can't establish the facts very easily, even if stuff is videoed.
I mean, there are videos of all the planes going into the building.
In 9-11, and still, I mean, it's been a long time since I've reviewed them, but there are people who are like, ah, you see, there's an extra fuel tank underneath, and ah, you see, you know, with the Pentagon, this thing couldn't have come in this low, and ah, you see, it couldn't have made this small...
Like, even with photographs and videos and so on, there are people who have wildly divergent opinions.
So, the fog of truth with regards to ethics is a great, great challenge.
There's a case in Canada...
Sorry, I said it'd be quick.
I apologize for that.
I'll shut up after this.
So there's not a case, like a legal case in Canada, but there's a woman in Parliament who said that she was sexually harassed or molested.
I can't remember.
Raped or something like that.
And she voluntarily went to the guy's room late at night.
She didn't say no to sex.
She gave him a condom, and now she's saying it was not consensual.
Good Lord.
I mean, good luck with that, right?
And so...
Because there's this fog and people lie.
I'm with the house on this.
People lie.
And so finding out the truth is very, very difficult.
And sometimes, and most times, it's functionally impossible.
You just have to go with beyond a reasonable doubt, which is why that standard exists.
So don't try and dwell in a world where the truth can be known with regards to crimes.
There is the fog.
I mean, people cover up.
They bury evidence.
They remove stuff.
They delete stuff.
I mean, look at Bill Cosby.
I mean, 19 women last count came forward saying that inappropriate actions raged from forced kissing all the way to outright rape.
Who knows?
This will probably, I mean, almost certainly, unless he confesses, and even if he confesses, there could be other reasons for him doing that.
People have certainly confessed to crimes that That they have not committed in the past.
And so even if he confesses, that obviously would make it pretty certain.
But knowing what actually happened 20 years ago, 30 years ago, even 10 years ago.
And this is what the police said when one of the women went to the cops.
They said, listen, it's been a year.
What are we supposed to do?
It's your word against his.
Nothing can be established.
And so when it comes to the use of force, Finding out – I mean, God, maybe it's because I worked in a daycare where kids would be in a fracas and they'd both point at each other and say, he started it.
Because even four-year-olds know the power of self-defense versus initiation, right?
And how can you find out?
How can you find out?
So this fog of who knows, unless everyone's permanently wearing body cams or something, I don't know what the hell will happen.
You'll probably get a reduction in your insurance if you want to do that.
But it's very hard to know what is going on.
There may be a few instances where things are perfectly clear.
But there are situations where, you know, a black man shot a guy in a parking lot and 20 witnesses all said something different.
It's, God, I mean, finding out what actually happened is...
I mean, one of the witnesses in the Michael Brown, Darren Wilson case...
She said her piece, and then when she was confronted with the fact, she said, oh, he was shot in the front, he had his arms up, and then when she was confronted with the fact that the empirical evidence, which always trumps, of course, memory and observation, the empirical evidence flatly contradicted what she was saying.
She came back and she said, well, the problem is I'm racist, and the problem is I have a bad memory, and the problem is I have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality.
Okay.
Okay.
So, thanks for being a witness.
Could have mentioned that beforehand, before you told the press exactly what happened.
So, it's very tough, you know, trying to say, well, if this happens, then this should be the moral result.
Who the hell even knows what happens in the world?
Anyway, sorry for all of that, but hopefully that helps a little bit.
Yeah, it does.
So, I mean, I don't really have anything else to say on the issue.
It's given me some ideas and possibly a path to change the way I've been thinking about these questions.
I just want to say that I'm a huge fan of your shows, Stefan, and I'm going to do my best to spread your shows in England, where I am, and I'm a huge supporter of your non-violence I think it's great and I'm going to do my best to spread it around England.
Well, Brett, I got to tell you, first of all, fantastic conversation.
I hope it was enjoyable for you.
I know we haven't come to any – how do you, UPB, prove that you should only use proportional force, not lethal force against someone beating a dog?
We could work that out if we wanted to spend an hour or so.
But again, given that it's such a rare situation that anyone's – I've got a gun.
I see someone beating a dog.
I've got a clear shot.
There's no danger to anyone else.
I know I'm not going to hit the dog like this.
It's never going to happen to just about anyone.
I hugely appreciate you bringing up the question.
I found it very enjoyable and stimulating.
And of course, I hugely appreciate your enthusiasm for what it is that we're doing here that totally makes my day.
Yeah.
Well, thanks for answering my question.
And your shows have really actually kept me company quite a lot since I've been at university these last two months.
So normally you're just a voice that comes out of my speaker.
And tonight I can actually talk back, which is really strange.
And we have proof!
Wait, the recorder's running, right?
Yes, we have proof!
Absolutely.
Well, thanks very much.
And keep us posted on any other thoughts and questions you have.
I hugely appreciate it.
All right.
Thank you, Stefan.
Thanks, Brett.
And thanks, Mike.
Oh, thank you, Brett.
All right.
Up next is Kay.
Wrote in and said, my girlfriend broke up with me because she kept seeing signs of me being either passive or dependent on her, even though I was neither.
Even when I could show her that the signs she saw were not real, she couldn't stop seeing them.
What can cause her to see those signs, and why does it seem so impossible to convince her that she is wrong?
Well, very nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you.
Can you tell me a little bit more about the relationship?
Where did you meet?
How long did it last?
Is it still going on?
Oh, no, it's very much not.
Okay, so yeah, if you can give me some details, that'd be great.
Well, we actually met, we know each other for quite some time.
We used to be lake house neighbors.
So we met already the first time when I was 15 and she was 16.
I'm sorry, what kind of neighbors?
Our grandparents had their lake houses next to each other.
I see, I see.
Okay, got it.
So my grandfather and her grandfather knew each other well and then our parents knew each other quite well and we were sort of the third generation.
So we were sort of childhood acquaintances and we actually had a classical teen romance when I was 16 and she was 17 but then we were kids back then and we lived miles apart, hundreds of miles apart so It didn't progress from there, but I always carried a torch for it, so to speak.
All the way up until now, when we were in the spring this year, so 17 years later, we got together and we'd been talking a lot before we actually got together.
And then it just sort of happened, and everything happened quite quickly.
Obviously we knew each other well from our past, and everything seemed right.
We had very long conversations about really deep and significant things, you know, about our values, what we want in the future, what we want out of the relationship.
Family, marriage and all that.
She started in April this year and all through the summer the idea of getting married and having children seemed...
it was more a question of when than if.
had made that decision almost.
Then her We obviously had our own apartments, but her apartment, her entire building was being renovated.
They were putting new pipes and electricity and stuff, so she couldn't live in her apartment for a couple of months.
So I obviously invited her into my place.
And she moved in in July, but we spent most of July...
We went to a lake house, we saw our families and all of that.
So we didn't start actually living together until the middle of August.
And this is when things started to unravel, so to speak.
She had told me even before the relationship started that in her past, She was in relationships and romantic relationships and in friendships and even in work relationships.
She often experienced that people around her became passive because she herself, she has a very strong personality, she's quite charismatic.
So people Sort of yield responsibility to her and wants her to make the decision so that they can just act according to what she has decided.
And that was one of her, this is what she told me at least, this is one of her greatest fears that in any relationship that this will happen.
That the other person, especially in a romantic relationship of course, that the other person becomes Passive and dependent and reactive.
It seemed to me that she was always looking, because she was afraid of this, she was always looking for signs that this was happening in our relationship as well.
My feeling is that if you keep looking for something, you will find it.
And she did, at least in her mind.
And we'll be talking about really, really banal things here.
Just about anything I did or didn't do could be interpreted as a sign of being passive or dependent or reactive.
And it took three weeks before we...
We had a real conversation about this.
It's pretty insulting, obviously, if your partner thinks that you are being completely dependent on her or being just reacting to whatever she does.
Because that is telling you that in her eyes you are not an independent, grown-up person yourself.
And that's hardly flattering.
So we actually had an argument about this, and I told her, what you are saying is not true.
And all the things that you listen to, but these are not signs of being passive or dependent.
I'm obviously not that person.
And she got it when we had this first conversation.
She realized that she was wrong.
And she was quite grateful for that conversation.
Like she said herself, that it is important for her that I sort of put up boundaries, saying that, hey, you're going too far now.
This is not the way things are.
Okay, sorry.
I just want to go back and make sure I understand.
So when you said that she was charismatic, was it domineering?
Or how would you characterize that in her?
I think one of my nieces described it best.
My brother-in-law asked what she thought about this person.
She said, she's like the sun.
She's very open, very social.
She's easy to talk to.
She has great social skills.
And she's a strong personality.
She's very confident in herself.
So, yes, she does take a lot of space in any conversation, a group of people.
Okay, so I don't know what any of this means.
I mean, people say she's confident, she takes up a lot of space, she's like the sun.
Okay.
How does this manifest?
When you were in the relationship with her, would this cause conflicts?
How did this manifest?
That's the thing.
In our relationship, I never felt it like that.
That she was taking up more space than me.
That is one of the problems I've had.
Let me ask you again.
Is there any way that you can translate the issues into something I can understand that's not a metaphor or an allegory or something which requires me already having knowledge of the person?
I mean, so for instance, there could be a woman who's bossy, who's like, we're going to do this, or I want to go here, and anytime you disagree, she gets upset.
But something that I can actually understand, because I can't follow what the issue is.
Is she dominant?
Does she want her own way more than not?
I mean, what does this mean?
She's got a big personality or whatever.
I'm not really sure how to explain.
Because you understand, you're basically saying, I mean, if you come into a doctor and you're saying, I feel uncomfortable, that's not going to be enough for him to prescribe anything, right?
Where does it hurt?
How does it hurt?
When did it start?
Yes.
You know, is there any motions that reproduce it?
If I push here, does it hurt?
Like, in order to do a differential diagnosis, there has to be something tangible to work with, and I don't know what the issue is here.
She thinks that you're submissive.
You don't describe her as dominant.
I don't know what the issue is.
Like, I'm sorry, I just can't figure out what to say.
Unless you can give me some more clear description of...
Like, you dated her.
Were there conflicts?
This was...
Hang on.
No?
Were there conflicts?
Yes.
Okay.
What were the conflicts about?
In particular, not in abstract.
Or maybe you can describe to me one particular conflict that stands out for you.
Her perceiving me as passive and dependent.
No, that's not a specific conflict.
That is what we argued about.
No, no.
Look, there must have been something that she feels you were doing that was passive.
Did she ever say, it bothers me that you don't have an opinion about this?
Okay, go ahead.
In the first argument about this, I asked her about it, and she started listing things that she saw as signs of being passive.
One of the signs were, for instance, that we were in the shop Grocery shop.
She wanted something.
I didn't have any particular item that I wanted.
So she went about the shop and picked up items that she wanted.
So I followed her around.
I had nowhere else to go, obviously.
And this was a problem for her.
Wait, so she was in a shop.
She wanted something.
You didn't need anything, so you followed her around?
Yes.
Because we were out walking and we went back.
We went into the store.
She wanted a few items.
She picked them out and then went home.
Hang on, how long did it take for her to get her items?
Five, ten minutes.
So she had to go for some things for five or ten minutes.
You didn't need anything and you went with her to buy these things for five or ten minutes and she considered this submissive?
Yes.
So she's insane.
Well, that is the conclusion I'm Okay, so you were dating a crazy person, so it's a good thing you're not dating a crazy person anymore.
I guess, yes.
I mean, am I missing something?
I mean, what you're doing is nice.
Hey, I'll come with you for a couple of chores.
I mean, if she was doing five hours of shopping for shoes, I mean, any man with half a red blood cell would rather blow his own brains out with a shotgun than go shopping with a woman for shoes for five hours.
But if she's just picking up a few things, sure.
I mean, then if she considers it submissive, I mean, what were you supposed to do?
Backhand her and tell her to get in the back of the van?
I mean, no.
I'm going to stand here while you get your stuff, and then you can come back and get me.
I mean, that would just be rude.
I mean, if my wife's got to go pick something up, it's nice to go along and chat with her.
It's great.
If my wife has, like, a day where she's got to go and do some shopping, you know, I'll be like the gay guy in Downton Abbey.
I'll, like...
Hold my hand up and get it shot off rather than go for a day of shopping.
And that, you know, maybe there are guys who like that.
It's just not – I'm not one of them.
But, yeah, if she considers you to be spineless because you go with her for five or ten minutes of shopping rather than do what?
I don't know, stand in the middle of the mall and strike a manly pose?
Then she's a crazy person and I don't know why – I mean, I get it's painful when you realize you're dating a crazy person.
But, well, you know.
You dodged a pretty kaleidoscopic bullet there.
I'm beginning to realize that myself.
It's difficult to understand how people can end up like that.
And also when we broke up, well, she broke up with me, obviously.
It was such a bizarre thing because...
Less than a week, a week before she broke up with me, we had a long conversation.
I was on a business trip, so we had a long conversation on the phone, and she also sent me a message, a text message, saying how grateful she was to me for being who I am, enabling her, in her own words, saying that for the first time in her life she's been able to be fully herself.
And all the realizations that I brought with it.
She was grateful to me for that.
And she said that I, in a way, saved her and permanently changed her life for the better.
And she said this in so many words, which, of course, felt good.
And less than a week later, I come home and she tells me that it's over.
Now, did she meet another man?
No.
Are you sure?
No, I can't be sure, but that's not the reason she gave.
Oh, that's not the reason she gave.
And has she dated anyone else since that you know of, or did you not have any contact?
I have completely cut her out.
Right.
Now, I will say this.
You're not very emotionally available, at least to me, in this conversation.
I mean, you might as well be discussing your stamp collection on Quaaludes when it comes to...
I assume this is an important issue.
You could talk about anything...
In this conversation, and this is what you've brought up as the most important issue, and it really sounds like you're reciting the phone book.
Yeah, there's a reason for that.
And what's that?
Is it, in fact, Quaaludes?
No, it has to do with what has happened since I posed the question.
When she moved back to her own apartment, it became ready and it became available again after the renovation.
She moved back.
And I thought through the entire relationship as far as that goes.
And I wrote her a letter where I sort of listed these things, these observations.
But also pointing out how all the good sides of the relationship, all from the beginning to the end, six months, that's not that long.
But obviously I've known her for a long time.
Wait, you wrote her a letter after she broke up with you?
Yes, because...
We never really had time to discuss the breakup.
It was sort of three days later.
She had a business trip.
I had a business trip.
And then she moved out when I was not home.
Sorry, sorry.
Just interrupt.
So you wrote her a letter after you broke up where you were trying to make your case as to how she was wrong or… Yeah, not as such to make the case that she was wrong.
It's just my thoughts on what had happened because I hadn't had time.
But why wouldn't you have a conversation with her?
She wasn't really available.
What do you mean she wasn't really available?
She wasn't answering your calls?
I mean, what do you mean?
I was hoping that the letter would maybe spark a conversation because there are quite a few things I needed to say.
No, you're not answering.
Hang on.
Listen and answer.
You said she wasn't available.
Does that mean you tried to call her but she wasn't returning your calls?
Or was it something else?
I think it was more that...
Maybe I'm not making myself clear.
I'll start earlier.
Did you call her after she broke up with you?
We exchanged text messages for a brief moment, but then it sort of ended.
So you didn't call her?
No.
So how do you know she wasn't available?
I don't.
Okay.
Why didn't you call her if you had something you wanted to say to her?
Because I'm telling you, a letter is a terrible way to do it.
And it's a passive-aggressive way to do it.
When you receive a letter, it's, in my view, I mean, in these situations, it's kind of cowardly.
Why didn't you call her if you were upset with her?
It turned out I had a lot of things that I needed to say, and I wasn't sure if I could We could get it all out in a conversation with her.
Also, I... Well, okay, but you can write the letter and you then make the points if you want and bring them with you or have them in the conversation you're going to have with her.
But why not have a conversation?
Because I'm concerned about this part.
What's the problem with having a conversation?
When you write a letter, you're in control of the dialogue.
The person can't respond.
They can't talk back.
It's not an equal...
Interaction or communication?
That was one part.
When we were kids, we used to write each other a lot.
So I thought that it used to be our MO back in the day.
So that also contributed to the decision.
But you can always answer a lot.
And she did.
Okay.
And what was her reply?
She basically said that the reason that we broke up had nothing to do with her or any traumas or problems that she might have.
That the reason we broke up was all about...
It was due to the kind of person I was.
No, the reason you broke up is because you're writing letters to each other.
Rather than talking to each other.
No, we talked to each other all the time.
That was one of the best aspects of our relationship.
That is why it became such a surprise to me, because we talked about her finding the signs of me being passive.
We had a really good conversation about that.
Okay, hang on.
I'm not going back into Falkland with you here, right?
So, Kai, you wrote a letter to her basically saying that she shouldn't have broken up with you?
No, no, I didn't say that.
Well, what was in the letter?
I thought it was here were the things that were problematic and so on, right?
But it wasn't, here's the things I did wrong, was it?
I mean, you're not admitting to do anything wrong here with me, right?
You've had more time to process it.
No, I just...
I want to give you my thoughts on what had happened.
Oh my God, will you stop fogging me?
For God's sakes!
Of course they were your thoughts on what had happened.
You're basically telling me I wrote a letter and I used letters.
Of course they were your thoughts on what happened.
What were your thoughts on what happened?
All you're telling me in this conversation is that She was wrong, and you were right.
Because she told you you were passive, and you are not passive.
That's what you're telling me.
So she was wrong to break up with you.
Is that what you said in the letter?
Or did you say something different in the letter than you're saying to me now?
I mean, obviously, it's not exactly the same, but...
No, no.
I guess you're right.
I guess you're right.
Okay.
So in the letter...
You told her that it was all her fault.
And in her letter back to you, she told you that it was all your fault.
I understood that she felt the bad feelings that she had.
I understood that if you...
No, no, no.
You're fucking me again.
Let's get back to clarity.
In the letter back to you, did she tell you that she broke up with you because you were passive?
No, she only said that she broke up with me because of what I was and who I am.
She didn't go into specifics.
Oh, so she basically just said, because you breathe, I broke up with you.
Because you exist and are the person that you are, I broke up with you.
So she didn't say that it was because you were passive.
No, she just said that the way I am.
I broke up with you because you are you.
That that was her contribution to the conversation?
Yes.
And when did she say she broke up with you because you were passive?
Or did she ever say that?
That was in the breakup corner when she told me that she was breaking up with me.
She cited all the things that she had brought up in our previous conversation about me being passive.
She felt that she needed more, that I wanted too much closeness with her.
Wait, hang on, hang on.
You wanted too much closeness with her?
What does that mean?
You wanted to be intimate with her?
You wanted to know who she was as a human being?
You wanted to understand her thoughts and feelings?
What does that mean?
I don't know what it means.
I asked her.
The reason she gave was something that I didn't understand what she said, what she meant.
One reason she said she gave was that I was too attentive, that I... I showed her too much consideration.
That took her needs and her wants and her well-being in too much consideration.
Right.
Okay.
Now, I think I might be able to help you with that.
Yeah.
I think I might be able to help you with that.
Now, these are generalizations which people will inevitably take out of context, but that's fine.
That's other people's business to slice and dice if they want.
But you were talking about having children with this woman, right?
Yes.
Now, what does a woman need biologically if you're going to be the father?
What does she need from you?
She would need my semen.
Yeah, she needs your semen, but after that, in terms of raising children for, say, 20 years or so, what does she need from you?
Time and resources.
Yeah, she needs resources, right?
Are you going to get resources by being attentive to her?
Uh...
Just by being attentive?
Yeah, just by being attentive to her, are you going to get the resources she needs to feed your children?
I would get that from being employed and having an income.
Exactly.
You would get that from going out into the workforce, competing and beating other men.
Winning against other men.
Do you understand?
Yes.
So, a woman...
Likes it if you're attentive to her because she wants to know that you care about her feelings and this and that and the other.
But a woman, biologically, wants you to go out there and get some cheddar and bring it home.
And if you have to pull it away from another man or another man's wife or another man's child, you go and you get those resources and you bring them home to mama, right?
Yes.
Now...
If you are overly solicitous to the feelings of a woman, then she's concerned that you don't have what it takes to go out and wrestle from the big bad world the resources that she needs to feed the children.
Because she's signing up biologically.
I know that in modern blah, blah, blah, but I'm talking about deep down in her grabby ovaries, she is signing up For 20 years of you bringing her stuff to feed the kids with and there are lots of guys out there who want to get stuff, bring it to the women so they can feed the children and by the way, feed the woman.
Plus the woman wants some status and she wants to have the nicest looking house and she wants to have decorated front yards and back yards and And she wants 12 beaver pelts hanging from the lampshades or whatever the hell passes for fashion these days.
She wants to have so many pillows on your bed that you basically got to be a little forklift truck in order to get a nap in.
I mean she just wants all that stuff, that status, that resources.
So she wants to show that her eggs are worth this much.
What did my eggs go for on the sexual auction?
What did I get for my eggs, baby?
Were they golden eggs or were they eggs of tin and copper and stone?
Which is why 80% or 85% of domestic spending is by women.
And it's to say, hey everybody, and particularly you ladies, this is what I got for my eggs.
This is how much money I was able to squeeze out of a penis with my vagina.
Got some strong Kegel muscles.
Squeezed that penis so hard it turned into a diamond.
Isn't that good?
Doesn't that make me nice and strong?
So, a woman will, in general, biologically, a woman will be difficult at times.
And when that woman is difficult, what she's doing is she's saying...
Are you assertive enough to go out into the big, bad, competitive world full of other burly silverback gorillas and get me my bananas?
And this is why women, and some people call it a shit test, if you don't mind the colloquialism.
And the shit test is that the woman will come at you and be disagreeable and be difficult.
This happens in wolf packs as well.
I mean, out of nowhere, the female wolves will just start biting and attacking the male.
And if the male runs away with his tails between his legs, they won't mate with him.
If the male attacks back, which is incredibly rare, they won't mate with him.
But if the male turns a soft shoulder to the female wolf and simply lets her bite at him without doing him any particular harm, then she'll mate with him.
Because he's showing that he's not a coward, he's showing that he can handle conflict, that he is secure, that he is strong.
She has self-control, discipline.
In other words, she'll mate with him because she needs to simulate the big bad world to see if he can handle the big bad world to go out and get her resources for her children.
So when a woman is difficult, she is being the world to see if you can win with the world.
And you don't fight with her.
You listen.
Now, knowing the difference between when a woman is testing and when a woman really has an issue is a fine art which I can go into perhaps another time.
But I'll give you an example very recently.
Do you remember what was called Shirtstorm?
The Shirtstorm?
Yeah.
The genius engineer.
Sorry to cut you off there.
It's called Shirtstorm too.
Is it really?
Yeah.
I'm sorry, it wasn't a t-shirt in YouTube, nitpickers.
You're right.
It had a collar.
That's the most important thing about that whole incident.
It was a bowling shirt, Stefan.
So this was a gigantic shit test.
So this guy is like, he's a total alpha.
I mean, the guy landed a spaceship on a comet, for God's sakes.
I mean...
To get overly sexist.
I mean, watch your average woman attempt to parallel park in traffic and compare that to a guy who can land a spaceship on a comet, for God's sakes.
It's amazing.
And him wearing a shirt of scantily clad women was another display of Alpha.
Right?
And then the women all swarmed him.
You sexist!
You misogynist!
Right?
I wonder what that's like.
And this was just a shit test.
And what he basically should have said is, Hey, ladies, if you can land a spaceship on a comet, come work here!
No one's going to say no, because I'm the only guy who can do it, which means I kind of got a monopoly of one.
Do not think that my shirt is barring you from landing...
A spaceship on a comet.
I mean, it didn't stop me from landing a spaceship on a comet, now did it?
So, you know, put on your big gold panties and come out and be beating the world if you want, right?
But, I mean, it's just funny.
They're just making a lot of noise because he just did a cool alpha thing.
And that's what a lot of women will do when they see an alpha male who's got confidence.
Look, it took a lot of balls, A, to land a spaceship on a comet, and B, to wear that shirt.
So, fine.
He should have just said, hey, I'm sorry you don't like the shirt, but I landed a spaceship on a comet.
If you're concerned about my shirt, you're kind of missing the point of life.
It's a funny shirt.
Get over it, ladies.
There's some big gold panties around.
Put them on.
See if they fit.
And it was just a bunch of noise.
Look, this is not to say that women don't have complaints that are legitimate.
Of course they do.
Absolutely they do.
And those should be listened to with all due seriousness and so on, right?
I mean, the complaints against Bill Cosby, the complaints against John Gamache, they are significant and serious.
Complaints about a shirt?
Come on.
Come on.
You know, in Toronto, there's a club.
And in that club...
It's all women, right?
And the women basically get a hot guy to pose naked and then they draw pictures of him.
And this is fun feminism.
It's empowering.
It's women taking control of their own sexuality and image and this and that.
And they're all middle-aged and obviously kind of creaky and so on, right?
And imagine if I set up a club for middle-aged guys and we hire bikini models to draw them.
And they pose naked and we pay them.
I mean, this would be considered like leering and lecherous and bass and gross and so on, right?
In the same way that stripper bars are considered seedy, but Chippendales is giddy and empowering.
I mean, it's just a bunch of nonsense that people make up.
And if you want to get an alpha female, then be an alpha male.
Like, I'm sorry, you can't rewire biology.
I'm not a Marxist.
You can't rewire approximately four quintillion years of biological evolution.
A woman wants to sell her eggs to the man who can get the most resources.
And this is of course the great tragedy of a lot of relationships to the degree to which people simply don't understand that.
Men wish to sell their resources to get the most fertile and attractive woman.
Women wish to sell their eggs to get the man who can bring them the most resources.
The man who can bring them the most resources is often cold-hearted, highly competitive, and anti-empathetic.
That's how, in general, in a highly competitive environment, you get the most resources.
You are not...
A very empathetic person.
Because of course, if you grab those bananas, and there are three guys who also have women who want bananas, you have to coldly close your heart against all of the other apes who want bananas.
And you have to just get your own bananas and sneak them home and give them to your lovely she-gorilla.
I mean, that's the way it works.
So then women...
In some ways, women want a man who's emotionally sensitive, but...
They also want a man who's a cold-blooded banana grabber because they need the resources for the kids.
Look, in the same way, what is the man's fantasy?
The man's fantasy is a hot woman who doesn't even know that she's hot, right?
Because that way, he can underbid His resources for her youth, beauty, and fertility, right?
That's like the librarian, right?
Like the Clark Kent.
With glasses on, nobody could recognize him as the Man of Steel because they're steel-rimmed.
And so the fantasy for the man is the sexy woman.
You don't even know how beautiful you are.
Take off those glasses.
Let down this hair.
Oh, my God.
She's a goddess, right?
I'm with Stanley Kowalski from A Streetcar Named Desire when Blanche Dubois says, Tell me if I'm attractive.
Tell me how attractive I am.
And he's like, I never yet met a woman who didn't know exactly how attractive she was.
And of course, that's what she's supposed to do.
Because to use her beauty biologically intelligently, she wants to find that sweet spot.
Not the G-spot, although that doesn't hurt.
The sweet spot.
Now the sweet spot is this man is attractive enough to get me enough resources.
He will get me enough resources to feed my kids.
But if I go for a more attractive man, I won't be able to keep him.
He may sleep with me, but I won't be able to keep him.
Because then she might end up with kids but no provider, which basically was suicide for most of us throughout biological history.
So she wants to find that sweet spot.
Yes, he's not a non-provider.
In other words, he's not just some lazy, fat, good-for-nothing guy who's never going to go out and pick a banana for me.
But he's also not like Brad Pitt when she's like a six or something because then he may sleep with her but he won't have a relationship with her.
So that's the sweet spot for a woman.
More resources, more resources.
Ooh, not too many resources because, right?
I mean, just look at the woman who married George Clooney.
I mean, she's like a gazelle with a brunette mop on top.
I mean, she's just, she's like all legs, preternaturally skinny, physically beautiful, right?
And I assume that this is the basis for him running for office, right?
I mean, which is, anyway, it's another story.
So, she wants the most resource-intense man her ex can possibly get, but not so resource-intensive that he's going to sleep around, cheat around, and other women are going to steal him away, particularly when she gets in her 40s and is no longer fertile and all this, that, and the other, right?
And so, she wants a man who's considerate of her, But she also will ship test the man and be difficult to make sure that he can handle conflict in the world because he's going to have to handle conflict in the world and emerge successful in order to get her resources.
So when she's saying you're too submissive, I mean you can say that's her talking or whatever, but basically it's the eggs talking.
Well, he's very nice, I guess, but I don't trust him to go out and successfully compete with the other gorillas to get the bananas.
You know, I saw some nature special where, I think it was, I honestly, excuse me for not remembering all the details, but it was one species of ape hunting another species of ape.
I can't remember if it was baboons after chimpanzees or something like that.
And a chimpanzee was fleeing baboons and they were like, they just, they ripped him apart when they caught him.
They ripped him apart and they ate him.
From the inside out.
Well, that's a lot of hunting and that's pretty cold, right?
And when people are listening to my show, they're not listening to anyone else's show.
I... That's me winning, right?
Ooga ooga!
I win!
Ears be mine!
Resources cheddar for the children.
So I win when people...
Watch reality TV rather than listen to this show.
Well, the planet loses.
But the advertisers and the producers and all that for the reality show, they win and they're like, oh, I win!
And so the eggs need you to be nice to the egg holder, sure.
But they need you a little bit or maybe a lot to be a cold-hearted, win-it-all-cost bastard who's going to bring back A shit ton of bananas.
Like having a good job that pays well.
Like having a good job that pays well for now, but also having the oomph to get more later, to be CEO, to start your own business, to be in charge, to be the movie star, to be whatever, right?
She needs to know not only that you can...
Like being on the track for partnership in the firm you're working at.
Mm-hmm.
And she has to believe deep down that you can fight the other apes for the resources and win.
Does that make any sense?
Yes, it does, but...
How do you prove that?
How do you prove what?
That you are able to do those things.
Like getting the resources and...
Okay, well, let me ask you this.
In a situation...
Where you disagreed with her about something, what happened?
We talked it out.
No, you didn't.
No, you didn't, because if you did, you'd still be together.
We did a lot of talking about that, and that's one of the reasons that she, less than a week before she broke up, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
I'm telling you.
Gratitude...
Gratitude is death to romance.
I'm sorry to tell you this.
I really am.
But listen, can you imagine...
You've just had great sex with a woman.
You've gone through M to Z in the Kama Sutra.
You've pulled nine muscles and you're so slippery that if God grabs you, you're going up like a bar of soap in a shower.
And you lean over to the woman and you say, thank you, thank you, thank you so much.
Thank you.
I'm so grateful for that sex.
Thank you so much.
Do you know what she'll do?
Well, no.
I don't...
Well, she'll throw up in her mouth a little bit.
Yes, but that's not relevant for me.
It is relevant.
It is relevant.
It really isn't.
No.
Thank you for sex is gross.
That obviously did not happen.
No, no.
I'm not saying this happened with you and the woman.
I'm using it to sidle towards you, right?
Gratitude...
is very very dangerous in a romantic relationship because gratitude is an inferior position and what you want is respect gratitude is when I tip a guy he says thank you I don't have to tip him When
I was a waiter and I was tipped, I said, thank you.
The person didn't have to tip me.
You're in a supplicating position.
It's an inferior position.
Are you in an inferior position when you are grateful or the other way around?
Who's in the inferior position?
The person who's expressing gratitude.
Which was her.
Yeah, absolutely it's her.
So...
If she's being grateful, if she's expressing her gratitude to me for being, like you said, strong enough and immature enough to handle conflict situations, how does that translate into...
Because it's not respect.
It's not respect.
Gratitude is not the same as respect.
Look, I'm not saying don't be grateful in your life.
I am.
I thank the listeners.
I... Thank Mike and so on.
I'm not saying don't be grateful and don't be happy in your life at all.
But it can't escape your attention that right after she said she was really grateful, she dumped you.
That is what puzzles me.
I'm sorry?
It has not escaped me.
Right.
So her gratitude killed her sexual desire, her romantic desire for you, right?
She could not be both grateful to you and Turned on by you.
Because a woman's sexual desire responds to a man's capacity to provide.
Not to be sensitive to her needs.
Which isn't going to get her one thin old banana.
But a woman's eggs...
Like a woman's sexual desire is driven by biology.
And biology is eggs for resources.
And you being sensitive to her needs...
It may make her feel good in the moment, but it's not what the eggs need.
What the eggs need is for you to be insensitive to the needs of everyone else who wants the bananas.
Maybe I should explain this more.
The reaction which led up to her expression of gratitude came from An argument we had that started with telling her that, hey, you are being really selfish and self-centered now, and I'm not going to accept that you look at me and interpret everything I do as being reactive.
And I asked her, Is this really how you see things?
And she said, yes.
That I'm just being responsive or reactive.
That I always take my cue from you.
Is this how you see me?
See how things are?
And she said, yes.
That's how she sees it.
And then I said...
Dude, you have the emotional power of a sea sponge.
At least in this conversation.
When you listen back to this, you will understand what I'm talking about if you can't feel it or rather not feel it now.
You have no passion.
And because you have no passion, because you don't seem to have any emotional energy...
That's actually true.
I feel very emotionally exhausted.
Yeah, no, I got it.
I got it.
And do emotionally exhausted apes get the bananas?
Well, I get quite a few bananas, actually.
So that...
No, no, but it doesn't...
See...
Fuck.
Eggs don't know about money.
Eggs measure a man's strength.
That was exactly what...
Because when we had the argument, she reacted really strongly to that argument.
Because she...
She first got upset that I perceived her as being self-centered.
And she started telling you how I feel.
And you're telling me how you feel.
And I'm telling you how I feel about what you're saying.
No, stop it.
Stop putting all this fog into something that is actually quite simple and clear.
Fog don't get you bananas.
Fog is just a Anxiety management in the moment.
Emotionally exhausted apes don't get the bananas.
I wasn't emotionally exhausted then.
She emotionally exhausted you.
Which means you failed the shit test.
Which means when she simulated the big bad mean other ape gorillas going for the bananas world, you folded.
No.
Yes.
You are emotionally exhausted now.
You wrote her a letter!
For God's sakes, how beta can you be?
Are you referring to her breaking up with me and moving back to her own apartment as a shit test?
No!
That's after you fail!
I'm not saying that this is the right woman for you.
God, what the hell do I know?
And I'm not talking that this is how every aspect of a relationship should be run, but you need to be aware of the basic biological facts.
See...
Alright.
You weren't raised by a single mother by any chance, were you?
No, nothing like that.
Okay.
And in the relationship between your mother and your father, how did your father generally behave?
Usually quite passively.
Right.
And do you think that had any effect on you?
Probably, yes.
Probably?
Come on, man.
How long have you been listening to this show?
Are you a total newbie?
I've listened to your show for quite a few years.
Okay, so you've listened to my show for quite a few years.
So why are you giving me this bullshit non-answer called probably?
When your father's interactions with your mother, and I say, do you think that had any effect on you?
And you give me a weak-ass answer like probably?
Of course it hadn't had an effect on you.
I didn't say is it the only effect or is it 100% of an effect?
Right?
But you're giving me probably.
Why are you giving me probably?
Everything has an effect.
Oh, come on, man!
Gravity has an effect.
The moon has an effect.
But we're talking about passivity in relationships.
Did your father's passivity have an effect on you in relationships?
If you're...
Not that I have noticed, because I haven't been passive in relationships.
You haven't been passive in relationships?
You know you're being passive in your relationship with me here, right?
Maybe.
Right.
See, probably, maybe.
This is all passive stuff.
You won't take a stand.
And apes who don't take stands don't get bananas.
Eggs...
Sorry, and eggs don't want apes that don't get bananas.
So you hedge, you fog, maybe this, possibly, probably.
Nothing is firm, nothing is fixed.
In the relationship, I took stance all the time.
That was the thing.
That is one of the things that she reacted well to.
And that is why it came...
Oh, so hang on.
So what you're saying...
Hang on.
So what you're telling me And what I think you're lying to me about, if you don't mind me saying so, I'm not saying you're consciously lying about it, but what I'm saying is that you were raised with a passive father, you're being completely passive and manipulative with me in this conversation, but somehow with your girlfriend who also complained about your passivity, you were totally different, right?
Is that what you're trying to tell me?
That is what I'm saying, yes.
That's not true.
Can't be true.
Well, like I told you before...
You don't even know the degree to which your passive father affected your passivity.
You're being passive with me.
Your father was passive.
You've not explored it.
You've not examined it.
You won't even acknowledge that your father was passive and it had a huge effect on you.
You're being completely passive with me.
Your girlfriend complained about your passivity, and now you're trying to sell me the story that you were not passive with her?
Come on.
If you want to call a less intelligent person, Host, then you need to call a less intelligent host, but you can't sell that stuff to me.
Like I said, the signs that she saw as being passive was, for instance, that I followed her when she grabbed a few items in the store.
Okay.
Well, I don't have anything.
Honestly, I don't have anything particular to add here.
I think I've certainly exhausted my capacity to try and communicate because we're not able to have any kind of connection here.
Yeah, I agree.
And I just feel that you're just – my experience is that this is – I feel like I'm putting a lot of energy and information out and you just keep absorbing all of this and going off in other directions.
And I don't think being particularly honest or forthright with me.
So I'm not saying that's true.
I'm just saying that's sort of my experience.
So I think I'm going to have to move on to the next caller.
But I certainly – sounds like you could have dodged kind of a bullet here.
And these things that I'm saying about men and women, it's not the only thing that matters, and it's certainly not how a relationship should be fundamentally organized or dealt with, but it is important to know.
If you're going to be in a relationship with a woman that is around sex and procreation, marriage and children, Then you need to know how biology works.
And that doesn't mean that you then have to – that's the only thing that matters or that's the only way you organize your relationship.
But we do need to have a knowledge.
And there's a huge amount of energy that has been put into the world that is designed to obscure basic biological realities from men.
And you see this all the time.
I mean, God, just look at magazines aimed at women.
It is all about making them look younger and more fertile.
Why?
Because that gets them more bananas.
I mean, looking at women's magazines and thinking that biology does not drive sex and romance is like looking at car magazines and being surprised that there are cars in them.
It just doesn't make any sense.
It is a foundational part.
Now, of course, women don't want men to know that aspect of things.
They don't want to know how women focus on appearance.
They don't want men to know how shallow some of this stuff is.
It's deep biologically, but it's shallow when it comes to relationships.
Because, of course, now we live far longer than we're supposed to.
And so you can't have a relationship based on lust.
I mean...
Most women would die in childbirth long before they hit menopause or would die of tooth decay or something like that.
So now we need deeper standards, of course, because we have longer lives and you need a quality of personhood to be in a relationship with for 30, 40, 50, 60 years.
But this basic trade of eggs for resources is foundational and fundamental to For men to understand.
And the reason I asked about the single mother thing, and it sounds like you weren't raised by a single mother, but you were raised by a dominant mother.
The reason why single moms have failed at this, right?
Single moms don't like to talk about trading eggs for resources because they have failed at it, right?
They chose the wrong guy, right?
Because everybody wants Brad Pitt and everybody wants, I don't know, whatever is considered to be the most attractive female.
These days, Jennifer Lawrence, I don't know, whatever it is.
Everybody wants those things, but so what?
Everybody wants to win the lottery too, but you don't get those choices.
We all have to make compromises.
If you want to know how attractive you are as a human being, just look at your spouse or look at your girlfriend.
That's probably how attractive you are.
Sevens are with sevens, eights are with eights, blah, blah, blah.
It just generally works out that way until you get older because a man's numbers keep going up as he gains more resources.
If he's ambitious and hardworking, his resources go up.
So biologically, in terms of resources, men start low and then keep climbing higher and higher, whereas – until they're in their 60s or whatever and then the problem is, you know, who wants to take care necessarily of a man who's falling apart?
And a woman starts very high and gets lower, right?
So the woman's curve of value sexually goes down and a man's curve of value sexually goes up, which is why men are horny and frustrated when they're younger and women are horny and frustrated when they're older.
I mean, it's just the way – I think it's fundamentally important to understand this stuff.
A woman, of course, her value is immediate.
A woman's sexual value is, you know, here's my hip to waist ratio, here's my lustrous hair, here's my clear skin, here's my even features, you know, all the stuff that indicate good fertility potential.
That's right there.
Of course, a man is taking a bit of a roll of the dice.
The woman could be infertile.
She might have endless miscarriages, endometriosis.
Who knows, right?
But those are pretty strong indicators of fertility.
And so the woman's is pretty much right there.
You can see it.
But the woman has to bet on the man gaining more resources throughout life.
In other words, she has to figure out – a man has to look and say, nice tits or whatever it is right now.
But a woman has to look at the man and say – How much money are you going to be making in 10 or 15 or 20 years?
And so she needs to figure out what kind of capacity he has for adversity, what kind of capacity he has for dominance, what kind of capacity he has to win at the expense of others.
Because remember, we evolved.
When I get a banana, you don't.
Not this win-win capitalist, blah-de-blah-de-blah.
That's ridiculously recent.
It's like 150, 200 years old, max.
Evolution goes back millions of years, hundreds of millions, all the way back really to the beginning of life.
So the woman has to figure out, is the man going to be able to mount the hierarchy, get the resources and win against other very competitive males?
And that's hard to do because she's got to marry him when he's broke And she's got to have kids with him when he gets more money.
Now, he marries her when she's already young and pretty and fertile.
But she's got to figure, we have kids in five years, what's his income going to be like then?
You know, is he going to be like that guy in the John Cougar song?
He's got a greasy hair, a greasy smile.
He says, Lord, this must be my destination.
The guy working at a gas station.
Well, that's not going to give her enough bananas to raise kids.
And so women need to test the man's character...
To find out if he is strong-willed, if he is dominant.
So she has to simulate the world of the future to figure out if he can pass the test of mounting the hierarchy and getting more resources, right?
So this is why there's the shit test, which is the woman is going to be difficult and she wants the man to be assertive without being aggressive.
And She wants the man to stand up for what he believes in and she wants the man to not accede to her.
Because if he accedes to her, if he appeases her, then she knows that he's going to let the other guys get the bananas and then her kids are going to go hungry.
And then her sexual desire, quite rightly so, turns off.
It turns off like a candle under a waterfall.
Oh, shit.
Sorry, eggs.
He can't get enough bananas.
We've got to reorient ourselves.
So women will talk about wanting you to be nice.
And of course they do, right?
Of course they do.
I mean, they don't want you to be out there like Genghis Khan, you know?
Like, I mean, not anymore, right?
Genghis Khan was incredibly successful sexually.
But they don't want you to be out there like Genghis Khan, you know, raping and pillaging and all this sort of horrible stuff, right?
I mean, yeah, absolutely.
Great.
They want you to be nice.
But their eggs need you to be assertive and just get the fucking bananas.
Get me some bananas.
Eggs need bananas.
Sorry.
Kids gotta eat.
Mommy can't do it.
She's breastfeeding.
She's got more kids.
She's pregnant.
She can't get the bananas.
You gotta go get the bananas.
And it's tough for women.
They want a man who's attractive enough that he's gonna commit to them, but not so attractive that he's gonna get stolen by other women, right?
And so...
Yeah, you know, the overcompliance and appeasement and passivity and submission and so on, well, that's just a big, giant vagina deactivation button.
I mean, you know, the egg's just like, wall up that hole, man.
Can't let those sperm in.
Those sperm aren't even going to be able to swim up if you're standing up.
Maybe only if they're upside down, they'll slide down the chute and find an egg, but they don't even sound like they've got the strength to climb, and God forbid you're on a trampoline.
It's not going to happen at all.
So I would just suggest that – recognize that for what it is.
And it's perfectly rational.
From a biological standpoint, it makes perfect sense.
And aggression towards women, aggression towards anyone, which is the initiation of force or bullying, I mean that's not what women want because then – Then what's going to happen is if you're hyper-aggressive towards women or aggressive towards women, their eggs are scared, they're going to be aggressive towards the children.
And if you're overly aggressive towards the children, the children are going to end up being broken and passive, right?
So they want assertiveness, but they don't want aggression.
And they do need to test you.
I mean, look, if a man could magically test a woman's fertility before marrying her, he would do that too.
And if a woman could look through the portal of time and figure out what the man's resource acquisition is going to be like in 10 or 20 years, she'd do that too.
But she can't.
So you have to simulate that stuff.
And the man's simulation is looking at all the physical markers of a woman's fertility and crossing his fingers.
And the woman's methodology of figuring out the man's capacity to get resources is to be difficult and to see how you react.
And if you react in an assertive way but without reacting in an aggressive way, then her eggs are like, oh yeah, baby!
Oh yeah, we got a banana fest coming!
He's gonna go out and win, but he's not gonna beat the crap out of us either, so yay!
Hallelujah!
Unleash all the hormones, and here comes the tsunami of lubricants!
So, anyway, moving on to the next caller, who, Mikey, doth we have in?
Up next is Jonathan.
Jonathan wrote in and said, What do you do if your romantic partner can never admit that they are wrong?
Jetpack time, baby!
Okay, sorry, go ahead.
What can you do if your podcast conversation partner won't ever admit anything?
But anyway, okay.
Oh, Jonathan, you can turn off your video.
Unless you're naked.
We can't hear you, though, Jonathan.
Alright, mime it.
Mike will translate.
Gotta hit the unmute button.
Hello!
My name is Jonathan!
Oh, there we go.
I think Steph is dead sexy!
Sorry?
Oh, did he actually unmute?
Okay, that's even better.
He has three bananas!
And five coconuts!
But they're very small.
You are such a lunatic.
that's unbelievable laughter laughter laughter laughter hey man all I can tell you is after days spent begging for bananas it's nice to be talking about bananas laughter laughter laughter I watched your...
Oh god, that video today.
I had to send you a message, man.
It's just bananas, you know?
I think it's great because obviously I don't know what it is you do and how you can do that, but Yes,
we know.
We're aware.
Thank you.
I was like, I know, because I'd always said, you know, you're not a lunatic.
I know all these people think you're crazy.
And I was like, nah, I take it back.
You are.
You're bananas.
Crazy like a fox, baby.
Crazy measured doses.
Now, hang on, Jonathan, I've got to ask you a question before we start.
Yeah.
Why are you inflicting on the rest of the planet two extra syllables when John is perfectly fine?
Like, what is that?
Because Jonathan's my name.
Oh, come on.
I'm J to my friends.
Jay.
Alright.
Okay.
No, it's just like this woman I semi-dated at high school.
No, no, it's not Andrea.
It's Andrea.
I'm like, okay.
Has vagina, therefore syllable adoption is complete.
I have a sister.
I have exactly the same thing.
Oh, really?
Don't you dare call me Becky.
My name is Rebecca.
Right.
Yeah, when I was teaching – well, not teaching.
When I was – a teacher's assistant at a daycare, there was a woman who – she said same thing.
Don't call me Becky.
My name is Rebecca.
And I said, how do you spell that?
And she said, well, blah, blah, blah.
And there's an H at the end.
So for how long exactly did I call her, hey, Rebecca – How long do you think that went on?
You know, entirely too long to remain funny, but still remain deeply satisfying.
Rebecca!
It's time for you to come in!
Oh, it's a good thing I'm over all that pettiness, though.
What a change that's been.
All right.
All right, so...
Basically, I have been thinking really long and hard about what kind of a woman I should be around.
I... Not your mother.
Definitely not.
I'm seeing that ACE score of 8, man.
I'm telling you, I'm sorry about all that.
I just wanted to mention that up front.
Nothing you can do about it, mate.
I wasn't in control.
I can say that I'm sorry.
I can say that I'm sorry that it happened.
I mean...
Just for those who don't know, adverse childhood experience, we've got verbal abuse threats, physical abuse, non-spanking, no family love or support, neglect, not enough food, dirty clothes, no protection or medical treatment, parents divorced, physical abuse towards female, adult, lived with alcoholic or drug user, household member, depressed, mentally ill or suicide attempt.
So other than an attack of killer robots and nose bats, basically you had it as bad as bad as it could be and I'm incredibly sorry for that.
Trust me, I've seen people who've had it worse.
Don't give me that.
Don't give me that.
Don't give me the Monty Python skit.
No, don't give me that.
It could have been worse.
Just a flesh wound.
No, no.
No, that's bad stuff, man.
You should have seen the other guy.
No, no, no.
No, it was pretty bad.
It was pretty bad.
I mean, in and out of therapy when I was a kid, and I mean really a small kid...
When I started a business at 27, I went into therapy because I was having a lot of anxiety.
And I've always been a bit of a bird bandit, so, you know, you're around a lot of women.
A bird bandit.
Sorry.
Birds, who don't know, is what British men call young and attractive ladies.
It's got to be...
Are there like 50-year-old birds?
I guess they're out, right?
No, no, no.
No, that's a turkey.
Okay, got it.
But I spent all this time in therapy trying to kind of figure out why I was not settled.
Because I was very happy when I was sort of 18, 19.
But as I got into working and being responsible and whatever else, and also I had a couple of kids by then, I found that I was experiencing trouble.
And so the counseling helped me to kind of let the steam out.
When I hit 35, I had a bit of a problem because one of my daughter's mothers died.
What?
One of your daughter's mothers died?
Yeah.
I had two kids, different women, three years apart.
Were they married?
Were you married to them?
Oh, God, no.
No, no, no.
I just got caught when I was young.
What, you got sperm jacks?
What are you talking about?
No, I mean, I didn't have particularly...
Good male role models, and I never listened particularly to the female role models that were around.
Therefore, I would go bareback, and I didn't even think about it.
And I'd go and test myself once every couple of months and take some pills to get rid of whatever it was.
Do you see what I mean?
Oh, you mean like STDs?
Yeah.
Right.
And then the women got pregnant, right?
Yeah.
Basically, you know, 21, I got caught, and then 20...
24, 23 I got caught again.
And it was like, okay, well, fair enough.
I didn't know my own father, so I'm going to be in these women's faces about my children.
And that's how I've been all the way through the children's lives.
Actually, I think technically if you'd been in the women's faces, you wouldn't have had kids.
But that perhaps is a story for another time.
No, because that actually isn't a story for another time.
It all feeds into this story.
Actually, that was just an oral sex joke, but it may have not been a very good oral sex joke.
But go ahead.
Sorry, mate.
Yeah, yeah.
Also, technically, if it had been over their forehead...
Anyway, we don't have to go into that repeatedly.
It's a Jackson Pollock painting of not children.
Okay.
Go ahead.
Oh, so, anyway...
Lots and lots of counselling up to 35 when I was advised, look, you've got this situation where you're going to have to take a deep plunge.
The stuff that's bothering you is pretty deep and you need to go deep.
So I said, okay, let the kids finish school.
And I was at that point in control of both young women's lives.
Both my daughters lived with me at that time.
And why did they live with you?
On the one hand...
My younger daughter's mother had died of cancer.
Oh, gosh.
Yeah, it's a pretty horrible story, actually.
But my younger mother's mother had died, and the older mother had a baby at 19, therefore had never been anywhere, therefore had a friend in Bolivia or Guatemala, or I don't bloody know where, but she decided to turn up at my office one day, you know, with the kid in a bag.
I'm going for a trip, and I didn't see her again for three years.
So, um...
I had both girls living with me.
So I needed to kind of work a little bit less because I'm a bit of a workaholic.
And I had to learn how to raise girls.
Now, the good thing is I have a lot of women in my family, but the bad thing is most of them are crazy.
Yeah, yeah.
The bad thing is they're in your family.
Right.
Got it.
Got it.
So, I mean, I was dealing with drama that I wasn't equipped to handle.
And so I was in therapy with my girls all the time.
So when they turned 17, 18 and decided to do what they wanted to do and not really listen to me, I thought, okay, this is a perfect opportunity for me to go deep.
And I moved to Plymouth, which is a tiny little town in the southeast-western corner, and no one's going to bother you.
And I went deep and it took me years.
I mean, years.
I don't know why people talk about therapy like, oh, you should take some therapy.
Let me tell you something.
Finding a decent therapist is a nightmare.
Finding a decent therapist who doesn't cost 150 pounds an hour is a nightmare.
Right, right.
You know, going through the process is a nightmare because I mean, I thought I'd found a decent therapist, but the guy I was with, I fell off a cliff and he had no tools to pull me back up.
I had three and a half years of deep depression.
I mean, it's taken me six and a bit years to get myself together, get back to work, get the company working, start earning a bit of money.
I'm starting to get myself together, but now I'm looking at the world and I don't completely understand it anymore.
Yeah, because you think you go to therapy to get better like everyone else's, right?
Like, you know, if I break my leg, I go to physio so I can get my leg to work back like everyone else's does, right?
And like mine did before.
But that's not how therapy works.
Therapy, if you really go deep, and I did years of deep therapy...
If you really go deep, you emerge and you're not like anybody else.
You're not like the broken people who know they're broken and you're sure as hell not like the broken people who don't even know that they're broken.
And you basically have become a superhero.
When I invite people to come into therapy, I'm like, hey, join Professor X or whatever the hell his name is.
Come to the school for superheroes.
Because you then have the same relationship to ordinary humanity as superheroes...
Due to everyone else.
You don't go to therapy to be like everyone else.
You go in therapy to get superpowers.
It doesn't feel like that at the moment.
But then again, as I say, I'm only now emerging out of it.
Right.
So it doesn't feel like...
The reason I know that is because you said, I don't quite understand the world anymore.
And I would argue that that's not true.
You do understand the world anymore.
But you understand more deeply now why it's broken and how you were so harmed as a child.
And that it was the world as a whole.
We always start looking at our families and saying, shit, my family was a dung heap of fiery, Satan-farted dysfunction.
And then you say, well, you know, but when I deal with my family, I deal with my family issues, break out of this dysfunction, whew!
I'm like a dinosaur coming out of the egg into the fresh air.
I'm coming out of the noxious fumes into the clear air.
I'm coming out of the caves and into the sunlight.
Beautiful, right?
And then you keep climbing out.
You keep climbing out.
And you're like, well, the air's not getting particularly clear yet.
I guess I'll just keep going.
Exactly, yeah.
Yeah, and then you realize that your family was a symptom of society.
That it's not like, hey, there's this great sane society out there, too bad your family was dysfunctional, but don't worry, you get out of that family orbit of dysfunction, all these healthy people will be out there.
Oh, gosh.
I guess that's an illusion that keeps you going, but it sure as shit ain't true.
Because my family was fucked up because society allowed it to be fucked up, and society encouraged it to be fucked up, and society enabled it to be fucked up, and society supported it in being fucked up.
And society needed it to be fucked up.
And so you emerge from the dysfunction of your society.
Sorry, you emerge from the dysfunction of your family and you think, ah, great!
I'm back, baby!
Hey, let's go join all the healthy people!
Hello! Hello!
Hello!
Echo!
Echo! Echo!
It's like, oh my god, I was raised by zombies!
Oh look, I've cured myself of zombie-ville, and I am now going to crawl up into season 666 of The Walking Dead!
There's zombies everywhere!
So...
The illusion is that it's your family that's dysfunctional.
No.
No, that is the illusion.
I know.
It's everybody.
Mm-hmm.
I broke out of the madhouse into a bigger madhouse.
Because now they think I'm mad.
I start a conversation with anybody almost.
Not everybody, but I start talking to people that I've known for years and they think, oh, something's happened to him.
He's weird.
It's not that I'm weird.
It's just that I can see shit now that I would never have seen 15 years ago.
I'm from the future, but I can't tell you that.
So...
Buy Apple.
Seriously, that's what it feels like.
I mean, I see the future so clearly and how we need to get there.
I literally feel like I came back through a tunnel in time to primitives, you know?
I feel like the giant obelisk in 2001.
Yes.
And it's horrible because I did all this stuff so that I could be normal.
And now...
I'm not.
And it's weird.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's not normal.
It's superhuman.
I used to have five girlfriends a week.
Literally.
You know, it was not unusual.
For a Friday night, I'd have one in the house, another one would turn up at the door, I'd turn her away, then an hour later, another one would turn up.
I was terrible.
I've had Okay, how big is your banana?
Like, I gotta know.
Like, what are we talking here?
I do alright.
I do alright.
You, like, you get into a hot bath after a long day and just unwind.
I just, I mean, no, okay, so how, because I find that amazing.
I mean, I dated a fair number of women in my life, but this, like, five a week kind of thing, I've heard tell of it.
Easy.
Okay, so how?
How do you, I mean...
I'm not recommending this because I'm glad that, you know, we're not in the same room because you must use, like, sneezing herpes, but what?
Women would cross the street and get hit by cars to come and talk to me.
You know, I... Are you, like, stunningly good-looking, is there?
No, I don't think I'm particularly good-looking, but, you know, I'd be handing over my dry cleaner at cleaning and she'd be giving me her number.
I used to get into trouble with women all the time.
Full head of hair?
Yeah, pretty much.
Yeah, well, that'll do it.
That'll help.
There's some cheddar, baby.
Oh, I tell you, go on board.
But that's another story.
It was even worse when I was in my mid-30s because, you know, in the middle of Islington, I got a nice car.
Well, I had three nice cars.
And I had fun.
And it was interesting the way that people...
When you grow up in Hackney on a housing estate and then you...
In the middle of Islington, and you've got a nice house, and you've got a couple of nice cars, and people know you because you've got a local business there for 10 years.
Suddenly, I was noticing that it was even worse than it had ever been when I was in my 20s.
And then I had to stop because I was in therapy.
And now, I can't go out with these beautiful young Jessica rabbits I see around me.
Because they're eaters.
Yeah, they're not just drawn that way.
They are bad.
I'd still like to sleep with them, but now I know that there are consequences to sleeping with them.
So I can't go and do that.
So I thought, okay, let's start dating some mature women who are grown-ups.
And I'm having trouble there too.
But not as much trouble as I had when I was a kid.
And I certainly don't do it 8, 9, 10 a month.
Now it's, you know, one every few months, I'll have a look, I'll try to see, I'll try to work it out, and if I can't work it out, then I'll walk away.
Which is massive for me, because I've been a slag fit for my entire life.
Yeah, I mean, you're a crack addict.
No, am I wrong?
I mean, I wouldn't call it crack.
I mean, it is a crack, but...
The crack of doom!
Oh, no, I mean, women are beautiful creatures.
I mean, God dear, how could you not?
I mean, there's nothing better in the world.
I've had a Ferrari.
There is nothing better than a woman.
Yeah, beautiful creatures, what you mean?
I don't want to get too crude.
Anyway, that's probably not the direction we want to take in.
They're beautiful creatures.
It's just a lot of...
No, no, wonderful and gorgeous, not the same thing.
In fact, often quite opposite, right?
Well, I mean, no, you talk about your wife, and I'm like, wow, you know, does she have a sister?
But at the end of the day, I'm like, what would I do with such a woman?
Right.
No, but listen, listen, I mean, giving beauty to a young woman is like giving the presidency to an 18-year-old young man.
Yeah, I get that.
I mean, how well do young people handle...
Power.
Not well.
And that's never going to change.
The drug of egg proximity will forever destroy the rational capacities of men.
No, and it's not a good compliment to the character of women that a man's brain has to shut down when in proximity of sexual access.
For God's sakes, don't think!
I don't know.
I mean...
I think I just wasn't thinking, period.
For a period of, like, 20 years, I did not think about anything.
Not really.
Right.
You know, I didn't know how.
Well, no, but you were programmed for a reproductive strategy that's promiscuous.
Well, I mean, not having a father, I tell you, that really is...
I mean, I heard that on your show, and I had to agree.
And you know what not having a father says to your balls?
Not particularly, no.
What not having a father says to your balls is, hey, man, hey, my fellow castanet of reproduction, no father means that men are in very short supply, which means I can bang lots of women because there's a shortage of men, probably because of war.
And therefore, right, I mean, why was there the swinging 20s after the war?
There was a swinging 20s after the war because a lot of men got killed.
Mm-hmm.
Right, the 1920s.
So, if you have no dad around, what that says is that there's probably not a lot of men around, and so you can be the cock of the walk, right?
You can be the sultan with a harem, and that's your reproductive strategy, and your reproductive strategy is, like me, in Unreal Tournament, spray and pray.
Let's lob some grenades over the ledge and call it skill.
And so, yeah, I mean, there's a sort of basic biological reason as to why you pursued...
The sexual life that you pursued.
It's partly dysfunction, but it's also just partly the way it works biologically.
So what do I do now?
I mean, I'm like...
Okay, let's get to the woman who can't admit she's wrong.
Well, I mean...
Sorry to interrupt.
Basically, I was just looking hard.
Now, this is a woman I've known for many, many, many years.
And when I lived in LA, you know, she and I got on really well.
And it's just a case of...
I'm trying to kind of find out about her now.
I know that she's a good person.
I've known for many years, you know, keep in touch.
How do you know she's a good person?
I'm not saying she's not.
Every couple of years, we'd get into a really big fest of emails and whatever else to try and catch up.
And I've always respected the hell out of her, which is actually quite difficult when you're a bird bandit to respect a woman and not lay your paws on her.
I respect you so much, I'm keeping my radioactive penis.
Got it.
But no, it's true.
She said the other day, when I lived in Marina del Rey, we slept in the same bed several times, and I never laid a finger on it.
Now, that's not my MO. I would stay up all night with a woman.
Have you no pity?
I will die if I don't get to make love to you.
You know the story.
Oh yeah, pussy begging.
I would do whatever I had to do.
If I had to say that I was green and I had eight hands, I would say it.
But my penis is sad.
Look, it's almost crying.
The little vagina at the end of my penis is weeping.
If I had to take her to a concert, if I had to take her to a restaurant, it didn't matter what I had to do, as long as I got what I was after.
And then you forget their names the next morning.
But I never did that with her.
And I thought that was kind of cool.
And now the boyfriend that she's...
Hang on, what did she think of your endless egg hunting?
Like a lot of my women friends, they think I'm hilarious.
You know, I've got many women friends I've known for 20 plus years.
I've never touched them.
And they think I'm hilarious, but they also have never...
I've never actually turned my gaze upon them, if you get what I'm saying.
Yeah, you've never fastened them with your basilisk gaze that causes bras to burst into flames.
I got it.
Okay.
So, I mean, you know, they seem immune, but I've never actually tried anything.
So, I mean, she's...
But she's not just an ordinary friend.
I've always had great respect for her.
Yeah, actually, that's not opposite to a friend, but okay.
Okay.
I mean, she's not just like a friend.
I actually have respect for her.
I think that you may be referring to your common questions.
I was 30 before I learned that you needed to admire and respect your friends.
I was 30.
I thought that your friends were just people who were in proximity to you.
Right.
I didn't know that you had to respect them.
I mean, I read a book a while ago where it said that the person that you respect the most is probably your wife.
The person you admire the most is probably your wife.
I'm like, Jesus, both of them?
Who admires and respects a woman?
Where is such a woman?
Well, no, but the reality is that a woman who respected herself would not sleep with you, right?
Yeah, basically.
I think so.
I mean...
I mean, just out of medical necessity, pretty much.
I mean, unless she had an IUD that was pretty much a space shuttle.
How do you explain all the ones who fell into the bed then?
I don't know what means fell into the bed.
Fell into my bed.
Well, they were women who wouldn't have self-respect, right?
All of it?
Yeah.
Yeah, look, I mean, you are a player, and you've slept with a lot of people, so biologically you're a suspect, right?
I mean, for STDs and stuff, right?
No, I was always very responsible about going and taking my pills.
Yeah, okay.
So, from that standpoint, and also...
A woman with self-respect would very quickly figure out that you did not sleep with women you respected.
And in fact, not respecting the woman was fundamental to your sexual drive.
Absolutely, yeah.
I mean, there were women that I was friends with and there were women who were targets.
Absolutely.
Right, so the women you slept with, it would be an insult to their character that you would sleep with them, right?
Well, I didn't see it quite like that.
No, but that's the way it was.
Because I just asked you, I just said that you didn't respect the women that you slept with.
No.
Right, so it is, so basically your penis is the, it's like those, what do they call it, dousing?
You know, where you hold the forked stick, right?
It's like, I can find water under the ground.
It's like, I can find low self-esteem around the pussy.
I can find daddy issues like mine.
Here we go!
Right.
No, you're like Luke Skywalker.
Why has he turned off his sensors?
Why has he turned off his sensor?
I'm using the force of history to send the torpedoes down the hall.
I wish I'd given it that much thought.
I really didn't.
Of course you didn't.
I hadn't given it any thought other than how do I get out of the fact that I'm seeing Susan and I'm with Jenny.
No, because the way it looks to a woman of self-esteem is exactly the same as if you knew a man in business who only went into business with idiots he could cheat, and then he said, hey, I really want to go into business with you, wouldn't you think that's kind of an insult?
Oh, she's not insulted.
Who?
The girl I'm talking about.
She's not insulted.
No, no, no, no, no.
I'm talking about the...
Sorry, I'm talking about the women who laughed at you, the women who you respected.
You know, if you say, I only sleep with women who have no self-respect, deep down, then if you say, I want to sleep with you, you're saying, I judge you to have no self-respect.
I was never that deep.
I just instinctively would leave certain women alone.
Sure, sure.
No, I get it.
But I mean, if you look back, I'm sure you'd find that pattern.
I mean, yeah.
Every now and then.
Because the only thing these women had to offer was sexual attractiveness and availability, right?
Yeah.
I mean, you'd go, you'd have fun with them for a couple of weeks, and then it was over, if it lasted two weeks.
Right.
Right.
So they didn't have anything of value to offer from a virtue standpoint, from an integrity or a courage or honor or bravery or honesty or like they weren't… These are not qualities I ever saw anywhere until I started looking for them.
Right.
Well, and also until you went deep and were able to achieve them yourself.
Yeah.
Right.
Okay, so is it a current woman who can't admit that she's wrong or someone else?
Yeah, I mean, basically I was doing the due diligence, you know.
I mean, all right, we've known each other for years, but let's get serious.
You want to have a kid.
Your eggs are...
Probably not in great shape since you're over 40, so let's start talking seriously.
Let's cross your fingers and hope you don't get a raptor or something, right?
Please, nothing with scales that breathes fire.
No, but I mean, you know, if I had to choose, and I said this to her, if I had to choose, I'd choose a woman like that because she's a sensible person, she's a loving person, she's got a great family.
I think it was...
My meeting her family that made me realize how screwed up mine was.
You know, so it was like, okay, so what do I do?
So I'm starting to talk to her.
I'm starting to try to get to know her.
And I come across, oh, okay, you're running a strategy where you want a kid that you've managed to get to 41 years old and you don't have one yet.
So something's off.
So let's talk about that.
Oh, whoa.
You know, so we start talking about it, but then I start touching nerves.
I'm pretty clear I'm touching nerves, so I back off.
And I thought, okay, well, if I have a kid with this woman, it's going to be 20 years before that deal is done.
I mean, that's an awful lot of work.
It's an awful lot of mucking about with children.
It's an awful lot of getting on with other people.
And if you raise your kid right, it's never done.
Yeah, it's a big job.
I mean, I've just raised two kids.
It's a big job.
Yeah, and of course, if you raise your kid, you stay close and all that.
Your kid's going to need advice, feedback, the kid's going to have kids, you're going to be a grandparent.
I mean, that deal is never done.
Yeah, it's a big deal.
Therefore, if I'm running into a store situation when I'm trying to just do the basic due diligence, how sensible is this idea?
Probably not very sensible.
Okay, so give me a practical example of how she can admit she's wrong.
Okay.
One of those points was, okay, you're going out with this bloke for six years.
Why did you keep...
Her last boyfriend.
Yeah.
Why'd you go out for six years?
Oh, because, you know, I liked him.
Okay, yeah, but six years.
You're 32, then 33, then 34, etc., etc.
Why are you continuing to go out with this man?
Because I assumed it was all going to work out.
But at 36, you would have known that it isn't going to work out.
So why have you continued?
Because...
This is a cool thing.
My mother would hit me with whatever was nearby.
Literally, she'd grab a chair and hit me with a frying pan.
Girlfriends, I know, would grab carving knives and throw them at me.
Girlfriends?
Yeah, seriously.
Wow.
You had some expensive pussy, my friend.
Holy crap.
You know, the funniest thing in the world is I didn't know there was anything wrong with that.
Pussy?
Fun.
Pussy with knives?
Somewhat less fun.
I thought that was completely normal.
A woman freaks out and breaks a plate glass mirror.
You don't think twice.
It's normal.
You know, burns your clothes.
It's normal.
That's how I grew up.
Wait, you had a girlfriend who burned your clothes?
Yeah, mate.
And not cheap stuff, neither.
Okay.
So I'm guessing it's not polyester, right?
Because polyester would more just melt into a monochromatic slag.
No.
Alright, so you had some pretty crazy...
But, you know, my mother was crazy, therefore it didn't...
It didn't mean anything.
It was like, okay, you're crazy, so?
You know, it didn't matter.
It's only until I met people who didn't do that to you that I was like, oh, okay.
Okay.
So, this woman has not taken any ownership for staying in the bad relationship or figured out why she did.
Exactly.
And even further, there's no sensible reason for her wanting to do this with me now.
There's a really annoying habit that I've found women have, and I've only noticed it in the last couple of years, where they say, oh, keep talking, keep saying that.
Oh, yeah, I'm liking that.
Oh, yeah, keep talking, keep talking.
And you know that you're just...
What are you talking about?
Like phone sex?
I don't know what you're saying.
I might be describing what I think her character is.
I might have said two sentences, but I've now touched a good nerve.
And they're like, keep talking, keep talking, keep talking.
And you're like, I don't want to keep talking because now...
Oh, you hit the C spot, the compliment spot.
And they're like, oh yeah, no, keep going.
That's good.
I like that.
I don't want to keep doing it because then I'll start making shit up.
And I start not being genuine.
And then I'm doing it.
And you don't want to be trained like some puppy, right?
Yeah.
And it's like, why are you doing that?
And that's where she wants me to go.
She doesn't want me to ask hard questions.
She wants me to do the whole poetry thing.
Read me never more.
Please.
Right.
And it's like, okay, are you going to tell me that after all this time, you're an idiot?
All these years I thought you were an idiot?
You are an idiot, aren't you?
Oh my God.
And this is where I am.
Right.
Well, if she can't admit that she has any faults and she can't admit that she made a mistake staying in a relationship for six years during the waning years of her fertility when she wants kids, that is a very bad sign.
It is, isn't it?
Yeah, I would not.
Personally, I mean, I can't tell you what to do.
Obviously, you know that.
But that to me would be, okay, so she's got baby rabies.
I have some sperm and resources and that is not – and she doesn't even have smart baby rabies.
Smart baby rabies would be to cover up her craziness until she got you married, but she's not even doing that.
Oh, I would never marry.
I don't think I could ever marry anybody else.
Okay, but have a kid until she got knocked up, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, so she should at least read some books and learn the right words to say, even if she doesn't believe them, to get pregnant.
But she's not even willing to fake it.
Sane, right?
She doesn't even know what the right things to say are.
Right, right.
But she doesn't even know that she doesn't know them, right?
No, she doesn't know.
Yeah, so that's not a good sign.
Yeah, I mean, this is relationship 101, right?
I mean, when I used to hire people for business, say, well, why did you leave your last job?
It's an important question, right?
And yeah, why did your last relationship not work out, right?
The only reason I know you're dating me is all of your prior relationships have failed.
Now, they've either failed because people stop liking you.
In other words, when they know more about you than I do, they don't like you.
Or they failed because you end up not liking them.
In other words, you're willing to sleep with people and only then later find out you don't like them.
And if it takes her six years to figure out who left who in the last relationship?
He moved to another town.
He asked her to go with him, but she wouldn't go.
Why not?
I think he was a bit too beta for her.
I think she was a bit worried about how much money he would have and how stable his job might be.
Right.
Especially if she wants kids.
That's obviously important, right?
Yeah.
But I mean...
At the end of the day, she was very upset about that breakup.
But she broke up with him, right?
Well, I mean, yeah, by de facto.
I mean, he moved and she stopped taking his phone calls.
Right, right.
Right, so it took her six years to realize she didn't like him.
No, I think it took her six years to get her finger out, basically.
And that worries me.
To what?
I mean...
To do what?
To get her finger out.
I don't know what that means.
This sounds like a breakup of a lesbian relationship.
I don't know what you're talking about.
You've got too colloquial for me, I'm afraid.
Or maybe this emerged after.
You've been away from here for too long.
Yeah, yeah.
No, basically, I think that...
Plus, the weather sucks in the colonies!
Anyway, go on.
Oh, you can talk with minus 30 over there.
No, I think that...
Instead of pushing the issue, she backed off.
Instead of saying...
Pushing what issue?
Well, the issue would have been, no, you stay your ass here in the town that they lived in.
And whatever problems there are, we will work them out.
That is the sensible way to have gone about it.
But she didn't do...
Wait, I'm sorry.
She didn't say to the guy, don't move.
Yeah.
But why did he move?
Because he thought his career prospects might be better somewhere else.
Okay, so he got a better job.
No, no.
So why would he stay?
He was in a situation where his career was going nowhere in the city that they lived in.
Right.
Therefore, he moved in order to get better prospects somewhere else.
But, from what she tells me, he had spent the previous six years wondering and worrying about his career.
Okay, so she wants him to have more resources, and then when he moves...
To get more resources, she leaves him.
Yeah.
Or he leaves and she doesn't go with him.
No, no.
She leaves him.
She leaves him.
Wait.
Could she not move?
Is that right?
No, she could have moved.
She could have moved.
Okay.
So she left him.
Yeah.
Right.
So here's another red flag.
You know, I was concerned he wasn't making enough money.
And then when he starts making more money, I leave him.
Can't win, don't try.
I mean, I kind of thought she was okay on the I didn't want to move and be a thousand miles away with him when we were not in the greatest of places.
But I'm like, well, if you're with him for six years, I mean, I've never done six years in a relationship, Christ.
So if you were someone for six years...
You make it sound like, I've never done a hard time with pussy.
I've never been trapped in a cell with me and vagina for six years.
With no time off for good behavior.
Because they'll shank you in your sleep, man!
Anyway, go ahead.
That's hard time, man.
That's the kind of time that turns you into Morgan Freeman when you're 22.
I don't have the experiences that you people have.
You people like them.
You like them.
You actually like the person.
You're around her for years and you like her.
I've never seen that.
More and more every year.
I hear guys on your show talking about it.
Oh, she left me.
I'm like, wow.
When they leave me, I'm happy.
Sure.
I've got more time for Xbox.
Right, right.
Is that dysfunctional?
Is that dysfunctional?
No, I mean, look, if you haven't met the woman that you can love, then that's the reality, right?
Yeah, that's what I figure.
You know, it's like, if I go whale watching, and there are no whales, is it dysfunctional that I didn't see any whales?
Nope.
Went out finding whales, couldn't find any whales.
Not dysfunctional, it's just the way it is, right?
And they are that rare, aren't they?
Well, I think, of course, if you want to Find a woman who is in a reasonable age bracket, who is single, who is wise, who is mature, who has pursued self-knowledge, who has some reasonable perhaps income or at least who's generous, who hasn't been infected by radical feminism, who, you know, yeah, we're starting to talk about some pretty serious unicorns.
Thank you for confirming that.
No, look, but it's not women.
I mean, how many guys do you find around who you can have a meaningful conversation with?
Yeah, there's not that many.
There's not that many.
There's not that many.
I mean, guys don't really talk to guys that often.
I mean, I went to Interstellar.
They do!
No, I went to Interstellar.
Oh, God, don't give me these stereotypes.
Dude, I went to Interstellar the other day.
I was in the cinema.
I'm watching a damn movie.
I come out of the movie and I'm like, what did I just watch?
And then I ended up having a really good conversation with some guy and we just ended up going to the pub and just drinking for a couple of hours and discussing the movie.
Now, that was a rare.
Wait, wait, you had a philosophy pick up at a movie theater?
I'm not gay.
I said a philosophy pick-up!
Yeah, I guess we do.
Good for you.
Good for you.
No, that's tough to pull off.
Yeah, exactly.
That is tough to pull off.
I mean, basically, you have to comment on nine women's boobs before doing that, so everybody knows you're not gay.
But, you know, good for you.
No, that's tough.
That's tough.
I remember trying to do a philosophy pickup in a sauna.
I tell you, that didn't go too well.
Anyway, that's perhaps a story for another time.
Now that there's only two towels between us, let's talk Schopenhauer!
Jesus, you are joking, right?
No, I'm serious.
I did!
Shall I add the steam, or shall you?
Let's just say that when I was younger, my comprehension of basic simian social graces was not exactly optimal, let's put it that way.
Call me!
Did you discuss Plato's cave with him while in the sauna?
You know what's true about all those...
Seriously, I mean, you're a brave dude.
They were queer as a three dollar bill.
Yeah, I mean, we were fully plunked in a movie theater and I was a bit dodgy about it.
But, Jimmy, is it a towel you're doing there?
You are so...
Yeah, let's say...
Look, you know what?
Let's say there was a towel.
I think that makes the story less insane.
But, uh...
I'm really into the Greeks!
Right.
Well, thanks, though, because, I mean, I feel bad, because, I mean, you know, she doesn't get to have a kid, which I think is really sad, but...
Why is that sad?
Why should she have a kid?
I mean, yeah, she should have had one by now, but...
Oh, do you think she'd be a good mom?
I think she'd be an excellent mom.
You are mental.
What?
You're mental!
Why?
Why?
Not at everything, but in this, are you fucking kidding me?
Listen, how much fun do you think, and I know I don't have to ask you theoretically, how much fun was it to be raised by a woman who could not admit she was wrong?
Yeah, but my mother is vastly different from this person I'm talking about.
Okay.
How much fun is it to be raised by a woman vastly different than your mother who could never admit she was wrong?
Who never takes ownership for anything that goes wrong.
Who blames other people.
I was fully expecting you to say something to me that would allow me to kind of circumvent her anxiety and tap into who she is.
That's what I expected.
Wait, hang on, hang on.
Hang on, hang on.
What do you mean her anxiety?
Well, obviously, I mean, there are four styles of communicating.
Intimidation, interrogation, Poor me, and aloof.
Now, she runs around on aloof.
You and me are both interrogators.
Oh, wait, wait, wait.
Hang on, hang on.
Mightn't she just be a dick?
No, she's clever.
She's funny.
She's sweet.
No, no, I get that.
Oh, no, I get that.
Look, I mean, Ruffin Williams could be a dick, too.
I mean, don't get me wrong.
I mean, but...
Maybe she just can't admit that she's wrong because she's kind of a dick.
I don't mean that that's all she is, but this anxiety and all that, I mean, I get that.
You know, if you're 15 and you can't admit that you're wrong, yeah, okay, you've got some issues, right?
But if you're 41 and you can't admit that you're wrong, and you can't take ownership...
Yeah, I'm saying to her, look, the strategy of being a mother has failed.
Can we agree on that?
And she wouldn't agree.
What, she wouldn't agree that she...
The strategy has failed, yeah.
Does she feel like...
Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf?
There are invisible children around her that only she can see?
I'm not...
I'm sorry, did you hear that?
I think the baby's crying.
I'm going to go and mime changing a nappy on a pineapple.
I mean, what the hell does she think's happening?
Are there children?
No.
Did you want children?
Yes.
So you failed at having children?
No.
No.
Yeah, I mean, I was like, okay, this is anxiety making her do that.
You know?
I'm about to succeed in my goal of becoming the prima ballerina for the Bolshoi.
Is that some white knight shit where I'm kind of taking away her moral agency when I say that there's an excuse for her not answering a straight question?
Does she really think that she has not failed in having children?
Um...
Because she's talking to me about having a child.
Therefore, she's not fair.
No, no, that's...
Oh, no, no, no, no.
That's...
No, but she has failed to date in having a child.
And 41 is, you know...
Yeah, this is the point I was trying to...
41 is...
I mean, there's Scotty down there worrying about the dilithian crystals exploding, right?
I mean, she's really pushing the envelope.
She's like...
She's really, you know, the eggs cannot take the strain, Captain.
I mean, she's really pushing the envelope, right?
I mean, she's got the Klingons of dusty, dead womb fast on her with phasers on kill.
I mean, that's really right on the edge, right?
But see, that's the point.
I'm like, look, you know, you need to be pregnant now, if not last year.
So let's get this stuff out of the way.
And we're hitting this wall, right?
And I have no idea.
I mean, I see what the stakes are.
I've known this person a long time.
17 years I've known her.
So I know what the stakes are.
Well, I don't know what you mean by the stakes.
Well, if she doesn't have this child, then she probably won't have one.
Right.
And she will help other women thereby.
Say again?
Look.
It's certainly true that the purpose of some people's life seems to be to serve as a warning to others.
Hell, some of them have been on this show.
I get you.
So she'll be like, oh, I didn't have kids and this and that.
I spent my 30s with a guy and it didn't work out.
Well, that's going to be very helpful.
Her infertility can boost the fertility of other people.
Yeah, it doesn't make her feel very good, though, does it?
And I will forever...
Well, no, I get it.
I get it.
And it doesn't make people who smoke And die of lung cancer, feel real good about having smoked, but at least it scares the shit out of other people who are smoking.
Okay.
No, listen, take what you want and pay for it.
She stayed in an easy relationship.
You say she's very intelligent.
Did she not know that she had a fertility window?
See, this is the thing about a lot of women.
They seem to just not want to look at the light.
What is that?
You mean look at the light of, like, oncoming infertility?
Yeah.
Reason.
And this is not just a...
Oh, no, that's, look, that's, I mean, that's feminism.
That's feminism.
That's feminism 101.
You go out and you have a career, and then maybe later you can have children.
What a stupid thing to do that is, in my opinion.
Yeah, because I'm like, you know, you've got 20 years to get this shit right.
How are you standing there at 41 going, I haven't failed in my mission?
You have!
Yeah, you have.
And because God knows, I mean, 41, I mean, if she's even fertile, I mean, she's going to face a long time to get pregnant.
And the chances of Down syndrome, the chances of birth defects have gone up not a tiny amount.
Seriously?
Seriously?
I mean, I've done some reading on it, but it is still kind of small, the percentage, am I right?
Well, it's a hell of a lot bigger than it was in her 20s.
Good point.
Can't do that.
Mike, can you look that up?
Just look it up.
Let's say she gets pregnant at 42 or 43.
What's going for downs and other birth defects?
It's really...
First of all, the odds of her getting pregnant are pretty...
Well, they're not great.
And also, not having a miscarriage are not great.
These eggs are...
You know, you do that bachelor thing where...
You smell the milk?
Really want a bowl of cereal?
Let me blow the dust off this milk jug and rip it open.
And you smell, it's like, it smells a little sour, but maybe that's just the milk that's around the rim.
And you think, like, maybe the stuff somehow down in there is better.
And then what you do is you just, you put a little on your tongue, and it's like, hey, is my tongue falling off?
No?
Okay.
Uh, alright, let's shake it.
And you shake it, because lord knows shaking kills all bacteria.
I don't even know why they have fridges when you just shake shit, right?
And then you put your cereal out, and you pour it on top of your cereal, and then the dreaded death clumps arrive.
You know, you got that, looks like somebody shat some interstellar cottage cheese on your cornflakes, and you're like, oh, oh dear.
Oh, oh, that's not good.
Oh, that's not good.
It is funny the things blokes do.
It really is.
Oh, yeah.
I get it.
As soon as you said that, I was just having visions of my fridge.
Oh, yeah.
And then you know what you do?
You know what you do?
This is the saddest thing ever.
You're like, fuck it.
I'm using some table cream and water.
That's what my plan is.
It's like, oh, milk's all clumpy?
Fine.
First of all, I see if I've got it.
I actually, when I was younger, I used to save coffee creamers and shit.
Because I was broke, right?
And so I've actually had cereal with like four creamers and milk.
I have no idea like why I'm still alive.
Like this makes not a lot of sense to me.
Like the stuff that I've eaten just because I'm hungry.
No good.
Then you're like, hey, shit, the cereal is empty.
But maybe some stuff fell in the box outside the plastic wrap.
Maybe there's something down there.
Maybe there's something on the floor.
Maybe this piece of celery that has the consistency of an old rubber band.
It's going to be somehow safe for me to consume.
Celery that's not crunchy, it tastes like gum.
I'm sure that's going to be fine for me.
Seriously, man.
I mean, it's like, I know I need, I've had a housekeeper for years because I just, I can't, I can't do that kitchen thing because it's just, it is.
That comedy show you're doing there about the celery is exactly where I would be.
It's just not even a joke.
Can I tell you one of the most shameful things?
Go on.
No bread.
No butter.
Some somewhat questionable peanut butter.
You know, the peanut butter that looks like something out of OPEC, you know, where it's just got that goo on top that you pretty much feel you could feed into the gas tank of a car and get somewhere useful.
But then I realized it's like, oh, you know what?
I made a piece of toast yesterday.
I don't think I even ate it.
You reach into the toaster.
You reach into the toaster.
And you're like, oh, good.
Oh, that's great.
Look at that bread.
It's going to be pretty chewy.
But if I use the oil on top of the peanut butter to goo up the bread, it's going to be kind of fresh because it's lubricated.
And then you find out that the best reason for it to be lubricated is so you can shit it out as quickly as humanly possible, because your body's like, what are you giving me?
What are you, just eating something you found under a bus?
Why are you alive?
How is that possible?
I'm like, honey, you've got to marry me.
I don't know why.
My bachelorhood is trying to kill me.
You survived that, you're...
You survived that?
You're like a superhuman guy?
No, I mean, you know, you get yourself a housekeeper, they sort that stuff out, and you haven't got to worry about it, because otherwise I wouldn't change myself.
I may have mentioned being broke.
Housekeepers and broke don't often go hand in hand.
All right.
Let me just give you some statistics for risk of Down syndrome.
Right?
Okay, you ready?
Yeah, I'm listening.
Okay, are you ready to sew?
Do you still have a foreskin?
Yeah, yeah, I do.
Okay, fantastic.
Good job.
Pull it over and get a needle and thread.
You need to sew this shit closed as I read this.
And look, if you need to use a staple gun, it'll hurt, but it'll hurt less than what I'm about to read to you.
All right?
Don't give me any of this cellophane shit.
I mean, I need this to be pretty permanent for a while, right?
So that if you have an erection, it's going to be unbelievably painful.
So just, you know, beware.
Okay, so mother's age 36, right?
Risk of Down syndrome.
One in 289, right?
Okay.
37, 1 in 224.
Ooh, did you feel that?
Little dip.
38, 1 in 173.
Shit.
39, 1 in 136.
Oh yeah, that's less than half.
In three years, it's gone down.
Oh, you've basically more than doubled your risk in three years, in four years.
40, 1 in 106.
41, 1 in 82.
Okay.
42, 1 in 63.
43, 1 in 49.
44, 1 in 38.
45, 1 in 30.
This is Down syndrome we're talking about.
Down syndrome.
Risk of any chromosomal disorder.
By 36, it's 1 in 127.
It follows pretty much the same pattern.
By the time a woman is 45, risk of chromosomal disorders, 1 in 21.
Okay.
Now, that is some serious life messing up stuff, right?
Well, yeah.
I mean, if you're raising a child like that for 20 years, I mean, that's going to put...
Oh, no.
That doesn't end.
No, because Down syndrome babies, they used to only live to like 20 or 25.
They're living into their 40s now.
Oh, wow.
I mean, you'll die, and this kid will still need resources.
And look, I get Down syndrome kids report to be enormously happy, and some people have...
Fantastically rich experiences.
I'm not going to pull a Dawkins here.
I'm not, you know, but I'm telling you, those are the statistics.
That's what you're looking at.
Well, you don't have to try hard to make a case, mate.
You don't have to try very hard.
It's very plain where we are, isn't it?
Right.
So, she has failed in her goal of having a low-risk child or a low-risk pregnancy or a low-risk birth?
Plainly.
Mike, can you also look up risk of miscarriage in these kinds of age frames, if you don't mind?
But listen, man, you don't owe her a baby.
You know that, right?
You can't white knight this stuff.
I don't care how much she wants a baby.
You do not owe it.
That is a huge, huge deal, as you know.
And if there are emotional warning signs, and I mean, even out of all this chromosomal stuff and Down syndrome stuff and all of that, if there are emotional warning signs, and you've known this woman for 17 years, when you say that she can't admit that she's wrong, I believe you.
That is a terrible environment to have a kid in, a woman who can't admit that she's wrong.
And you're going to see that kid suffer too from that because, Jonathan, as you know, having a parent around who can't admit that he or she is wrong is really, really destructive to a kid.
I thought there was something I was doing wrong or something I was saying wrong.
No.
Look, give women the respect of 100% moral agency.
Then we'd never talk to them.
Well, I'm not saying...
Hey, don't put me in that we.
I mean, if you're talking about you and your penis, that's a different thing.
But don't put me in that.
I talk to women in this show.
I talk to women all the time.
I have female friends.
Come on, man.
Moral agency?
Come on.
Oh, don't tell me you're part of that old joke, you know, why did God give women vaginas so that men would talk to them?
I'm sorry, but, you know, you're talking about if you're going to not open a door for a woman, what's the score?
Say you don't pick up the check every time you two have dinner.
Say you decide that she is your equal in everything.
Yep.
Yeah.
Then you're a cad.
You're a cad.
No, no, you're only a cad to a whore.
Look, I mean, if a woman wants you to pay for everything, she wants you to pay for sex.
She's a whore.
Yeah, but we know that.
And she's a dishonest whore.
And we know that too.
Because that's like...
You know what that's like?
That's like me inviting you over for a barbecue saying, don't bring anything.
And then charging you $400 for a burger after the fact.
Yeah, but...
If you're going to charge for sex, give me a price list.
Yeah, but they're not going to do that, are they?
You're driving a Corolla, you're going to get a certain type of girl, you're going to get a certain type of blowjob.
True or false?
I'm sorry, say that again?
If you're driving a Corolla, you're going to get a certain type of woman, and she's going to give you a certain type of blowjob.
Am I right?
Now, you don't mean an Adam Corolla, you mean a kind of car, right?
Yes, that's right.
Okay, is a Corolla a crap car?
Yeah.
Okay, so you're going to get lots of teeth, and she's going to be chewing gum at the same time, and listening to music.
And it will last 13 seconds.
And basically, like, she's bobbing for apples with braces on.
There you go.
You pull up in a Ferrari, and all of a sudden, she lives on her knees.
All right.
Now...
Okay, so this may be women that you're exposed to and maybe that's the women who are drawn like moths to a flame to a Ferrari.
I don't know.
But that is not – look, I get – and I was just talking about man bring resources, woman brings fertility and so on, right?
But if the woman is giving you a blowjob because you have a Ferrari, she's basically giving the Ferrari a blowjob.
And you just happen to be around, right?
Yeah, and I know this.
I wasn't happy to find it out, but I know this.
Right.
Oh, we weren't happy to find it out.
Yeah, because guys buy Ferraris because they want to drive fast in England.
No Autobahns in England, as far as I recall, unless they built something new, unless you're able to sneak in to the Heathrow Airport on the off hours and open that thing up.
Oh, yeah.
Men buy Ferrari because they really appreciate Italian engineer performance.
Yeah, right.
I was surprised to find that women gave me blowjobs when I had Ferraris.
No, no, no.
That's in the brochure.
It's a pop-up brochure which says you buy a Ferrari for the way it makes women's lips purr.
Come on.
And that is the truth.
Yeah, of course it is.
I had one girlfriend I was going out with for 18 months, which is long for me, but then again, she didn't mind my other activities.
She had a screaming dicky fit on the forecourt of the car showroom saying, you cannot buy that car.
Yeah, because she knew as soon as you get the car, you're going to be a whore magnet.
As if I wasn't before.
No, but more, right?
Yeah.
I mean, you drive out of that car, you're like a giant industrial magnet over a scrap iron factory, like...
Like pussy's just flying and sticking to the crumb, right?
I mean, she threw a dicky fit.
People were watching.
You need one of those South African cars with, like, the gas jets and flames that come out the side to stop you from getting it stolen in the same way to keep the pussy in bed, right?
I just appreciate Italian engineering.
I don't want to probe your tonsils.
Right.
Look, and I understand that.
And it happens for men too, right?
I mean, if a woman goes out...
I mean, going out in a Ferrari and being surprised at female attention is like a woman...
It's like Sofia Vergara going out in Band-Aids and being surprised that men are buying her drinks.
Like, it just doesn't...
It's just not the way it works, right?
If you're advertising that strongly, right?
I mean...
I mean...
Can you tell me why this is?
Why what is?
You know, I mean, supposedly sensible, rational people lose their bloody minds when they see this car.
What is that?
Oh, come on.
You don't even need me to answer that question.
How rational, coherent, and sensible do you stay when in the present of a sexually attractive woman?
Actually, not so bad anymore.
No, but when you were younger, right?
Yeah, when I was younger, it was not.
Okay, so how old are the women attracted to this?
Now that I remember, the first time I saw a drop-dead woman, drop-dead good-looking woman, I wandered into Stringfellows in New York, thinking it was like the one we have here.
Yeah, I don't know what that is.
What is Stringfellows there?
You remember, I left England when I was 11, which was slightly prior to my...
I look like a bandmate from Aha Player days.
Okay.
Stringfellows here used to be a very, very swish nightclub.
Very swish.
Okay, swish doesn't mean gay.
It means fancy, just for everyone else.
I grew up in Hackney, so you hear about it, but you were never allowed in.
And, you know, you grow up, you make a few quid, and then they let you in.
So I went in there, and it's a great nightclub.
I went into the one in New York, and it's a titty bar.
I didn't know that.
A titty bar means a strip bar.
Yeah, straight up.
Some girl offered me a drink.
Starkers.
Standing there.
Starkers means naked.
I'm sorry to have to do this Trainspotting stuff, but it doesn't mean surprised.
Okay.
So, and that was the first time I saw a drop-dead gorgeous woman looking like that.
And that did confuse me, because I was like, you're so beautiful, why are you naked?
But, you know, I've since learned...
You know, I've since learned that really, really, really beautiful women are not always very clever.
Okay.
All right, Captain Obvious.
Okay.
Take us on your journey of obvious discoveries, please.
And then I found out if I fall into something heavy, it hurts.
Then, the sun is hot.
The moon, not so much.
No, I mean, I grew up in East London.
I didn't know.
I thought that beautiful women were sophisticated and intelligent.
That's, you know, you grow up, you go to LA, and then you find out they're not.
But, Until then, I wasn't clear on that.
You see, Tyra Banks, that's a clever bird there, isn't it?
I've seen her talk show once.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to reserve comment, but it's all right.
All right.
But no, thank you for your help.
No, sorry, but women go nuts over Ferraris because Ferraris mean that you have resources for their eggs, right?
Yeah.
I don't know if you heard the earlier conversation about bananas for eggs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, yeah, look, and there's videos on YouTube.
I've only heard about them.
I've seen them.
Apparently, some guy in a Lamborghini just points at a woman and points at the seat, and quite often, the woman will get into the car because it's a Lamborghini.
Bloody hell.
Yeah, you try that with a Lada or a Pinto, and you're having a challenge, so to speak, right?
And, you know, the worst thing is, of course, having to change the seat leather afterwards, but it's...
You know, because women will – because that's like, hey, resources.
It's the eggs that are pulling her into the car.
She can barely resist it, right?
It's the eggs that stick to the Ferrari's crumb.
That's the magnet, right?
All right.
So sensible women will not behave in this way.
Is that what you're telling me or is it all women?
Sensible women will feel the same pull, but they will recognize that it is not a sensible mating strategy to get into a stranger's car because the car happens to be expensive.
It's actually a fairly good strategy if you want to be dismembered and boiled in lye and flushed down the toilet.
But it's not a sensible mating strategy.
See, there's a sexual strategy and then there's a mating strategy.
And a sexual strategy is more short term, which is what you were pursuing with these women.
And a mating strategy is to mate, to get a pair-bonded mate, to raise kids and so on, right?
And society is at war between the mating and the sexing, right?
Sex versus mating.
And of course the pill and all of that and the welfare state has disconnected sex from mating to now to the point where short-term spray-and-pray reproductive strategies are working very well and longer-term...
See, the shorter-term reproductive strategies get funded by the state through the welfare state, through a variety of other things.
And the longer-term...
Pair bonding strategies are taxed to pay for all of the shorts.
So we're funding spray-and-pray idiots and we are taxing people who actually settle down and raise good families.
Naturally, this is creating a dystopian nightmare of reverse evolution.
Yeah, so I mean, look, I'll never be, quote, wise enough that, you know, if I'm watching Sofia Vergara in a bathing suit, I'm not going to be like a fascinating display of mammalian sexual characteristics, right?
I mean, that's just not going to happen because I'm a biological entity.
But that doesn't mean I'm going to go jump her bones, right?
I mean, you know, I can look at a great piece of art without feeling I have to steal it, right?
I'm not going out of the Louvre in a heavy overcoat and suspicious squares under my armpits, right?
I mean, can you control that?
I mean, I remember you saying...
Can I control my behavior?
Is that what you're asking me?
No, I remember watching one of your videos where this bloke had been a missionary and he'd brought back this young Brazilian wife.
And I was like...
And you'd said to him, you need to be a little bit more careful because of this 20-year-old bird who jumped on him at work.
You need to be a bit more careful about controlling your sexual urges.
And I remember saying, you're having a laugh.
How do you...
Tell a 22-year-old gorgeous woman, no, we're not going to have sex right now.
That's very difficult to do.
Hey, you just did it.
No, we're not going to have sex.
And not right now.
He's married.
Good point.
Which means you don't have sex.
I would never have got married in the first place to put myself in that position.
But you're able to say no, right?
Now?
I'm able to say no now because I'm 48.
I couldn't have said no when I was 38.
Oh, come on.
Of course you could have.
No, seriously, come on.
If Olga, the she-wolf of the SS, said, if you touch this woman, I'll cut your balls off, do you think you would have been able to stop yourself?
Absolutely.
Of course.
So it's just a matter of incentives, right?
You can stop.
Don't tell me you can't.
You can stop yourself.
You don't want to, though, do you?
Look, I mean, how much do you weigh?
170, 165.
170, 165.
Okay.
Now, unless you're five feet tall, that's fairly trim, right?
Yeah.
Do you like cheesecake?
Yeah.
Do you eat half a cheesecake?
Yeah.
Yeah, you could go to that cheesecake factory over at Marina del Real, eat the hell out of that place.
So how are you not gaining weight?
Because I've got a really fast metabolism, and I'm in the gym all the time.
Oh, so you exercise like crazy, right?
Yeah.
Okay, okay.
So...
So, if you were gaining weight, would you cut back on what you ate?
Hell yes.
Absolutely.
So, there's things that you want to eat, and you say no.
And, you know, there's probably times you don't want to go to the gym, or don't want to go to work, and you say, go to work, right?
Go to the gym.
So, you just, right, you just...
Yeah, but these are, I mean, the power of a beautiful young woman to make me into a blithering idiot.
I mean...
There ought to be a law.
There really should.
And especially the way that women these days in the office...
Oh, there is.
There is a law.
It's called alimony and child support.
There is a law.
There is a law that's supposed to dick smack some sense into a man's dick, which is, yeah.
And let me give you another law.
You ready?
Yeah.
Thinking about impregnating a woman in her 40s?
Yeah.
Okay.
Let's look at pregnancy loss rate.
Which is pregnancies that tragically do not come to term, right?
If you're under 30, it's 8%.
8% of pregnancies don't come to term, right?
30 to 34, we're at 12%.
35 to 37, 16%.
38 to 39, 22%.
40 to 41, 33%.
42 to 43, 45%.
44 to 46, 60%.
Pregnancy loss rate.
And that's at any time between three and six months, is that right?
Basically, it's just not coming to term and not born premature and survivable.
So if you're going to try and get this woman pregnant 42, 43, even if she gets pregnant, which can take forever at that age, 45% pregnancy loss rate.
No, I think I'm fairly clear that I'm not going to do it, but my next challenge is just being able to go and meet with her and sit down and explain why.
You know, so...
Hang on, hang on.
Why do you have to explain why?
Have you agreed to?
We were talking about it.
I haven't said...
I mean, I am supposed to go and visit her at a time when I know that she will be ovulating.
We've never, ever had sex, she and I. You're...
Oh, my God.
Oh, Jonathan.
Okay, so you've talked about impregnating her, and would you then talk about staying and raising the child with her?
Yeah, absolutely.
See, I don't imagine that I'll ever be able to have a woman in my house because I'm a dog.
I might be a recovering dog who hasn't done very much doggishness for years, but the point is I'm like any alcoholic looking into a pub.
I know I can fall off the wagon at any moment.
And she wants to have a child with a man who won't marry her and who can go bird-dogging anytime.
I mean, let's put it in perspective.
It's been seven years since the last time I was a hound.
No, it's been nine years since the last time I was a hound.
So I'm doing okay, but I recognize it is entirely possible that And I wouldn't want to be married and then have all that drama on top of it.
So, wait, would you be monogamous with this woman if you had a child with her?
I would try.
Alright.
But that's the best I could do, and that's what I've told her.
So you wouldn't commit to the monogamy, you'd commit to striving towards monogamy?
I would commit to raising the child and trying to be monogamous.
Right.
Right.
I mean, at the end of the day, I know what I am.
I'm not saying I'm going to relapse tomorrow or next week, but I know it's a very real possibility.
Who the hell wants to live with somebody like that?
Right.
Right.
But she would get your money.
Yeah, absolutely.
And if you didn't want to give her the money, she would get the money anyway.
Yeah, because, you know, there's child support laws, aren't there?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah, and I mean, I wouldn't do that anyway.
I mean, you know, raising my two girls was really expensive, but it was a lot of fun.
And it was, you know, I think that the reason why it went as well as it did was because I'm absolutely dedicated to it.
Right.
Long silence.
Yeah.
I mean, look, if she wants kids and you want a kid...
You want to pay?
No, she's 42.
I mean, if I want a kid, I'll have to go younger.
Yeah, you know, I think unless there's some compelling emotional reason, like she's just the love of your life, I would say it's risky on so many different levels.
And not least because, as you know, when you have a kid with someone, I guess unless they give you complete custody, which I never quite got the answer to earlier, but it doesn't really matter, if you...
Are having a kid with someone there in your life forever?
Yeah, I did get custody of both my girls.
And why was that again?
Because her mum was not able to commit to it.
Oh, that's a euphemism if ever I've heard one.
Well, East London, poor people, There's a different set of rules, Stefan.
People don't have the ability or the knowledge to be sensible about a lot of stuff.
Oh, here we go.
No moral agency to women again.
Here comes the white knight saving women from their decisions.
It's not just women.
I mean, guys I went to school with selling drugs, you know.
So they have no moral agency either.
No, they just...
I mean...
They don't know any different.
Bullshit!
Oh my god, how condescending can you be?
You have to be there, Stefan.
Oh, come on.
Do you think I was raised with a silver spoon up my ass?
Didn't you think I didn't come from a ghetto?
Don't tell me I come from...
From some Downton Abbey gold-crusted diamond-embedded manger?
Alright, let's use what you said.
Do you remember you were talking to the bloke who was really clever, IQ of 139, and he was talking to people and trying to figure out why he couldn't have a decent conversation.
Do you remember that, Keezer?
You've described about a third of the cost of the show, so I'm afraid I can't.
So, you've got an IQ of 139, you walk into the middle of Stepney, and you try to explain to people, you really shouldn't be selling that marijuana, you know.
You could go and get a job.
I mean, how long are you going to live if you do that?
Well, so you're saying that they would attack me, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, okay, I get it.
So what?
Does that mean they don't have any choices?
It means that they don't have the skills you have.
They don't have the software.
They might have the hardware, but they don't have the software.
Oh, good.
Yeah, let's use computer analogies because that really helps in discussions of free will.
All right.
Are you saying they don't have any capacity to improve their lot and they have no capacity to not sell drugs?
No, I'm saying that there would need to be programs in place and skilled people in place to teach them.
Well, not really.
I think drugs would just have to be legalized, right?
Because then they wouldn't be able to make fuck all money selling them, right?
No, because if you legalize drugs, then you've killed one problem and created another, because then you've got ODing people and stoned drivers everywhere.
Well, no, I didn't say make it legal.
I mean, alcohol is legal.
It's still not legal to drink and drive, right?
Yeah.
And you think you don't have stoned drivers anyway?
Jesus.
Maybe that's a conversation for another time.
I'm willing to grant people no moral agency.
That's perfectly fine.
But they have to have significant brain damage first.
And then they have to accept that they can't live on their own.
They have to be in an assisted living facility.
They don't get to vote.
They have to not be moral agents.
I mean, I don't disagree with you on that point, because from my point of view, these people are not prepared to vote.
They're not prepared to do certain things.
They actually shouldn't be out in daylight by themselves.
I know this.
Okay, then we ramp them up and we put them in facilities and whatever, right?
I mean, but then we don't, you know, then you can say, well, these people have no moral agency and they shouldn't be out there tying their own shoes and paying their own rent and buying their own groceries.
But if they're doing all that other shit, then they've got moral agency, and I think that they are.
Why do they have the vote?
Why do they have the vote?
Because politicians wanted them to have it so that they could bribe them into voting wherever.
Yeah, because stupid people are a lot easier to manage, right?
Yeah.
I mean, it's no accident that Hackney looks the way it does.
It's no accident that Peckham looks the way that it does.
You know, these people are there for a reason.
The underclass has been created for a reason.
No.
See, then again, you're giving them no moral agency, right?
Being created and blah-de-blah-de-blah, right?
No, I mean, one or two of us can pull our way out, you know, if we're significantly tough enough to do it.
But it ain't easy.
No, it's not easy, of course.
But my concern is that by spraying all of this can't-win-don't-try shit in the air, you're affecting people's decisions.
Oh, no.
I mean, I would never say can't-win-don't-try, but I would...
I mean, if you're...
Yeah, yeah, actually, actually, no, no, that's kind of where you were going, right?
No.
Like I say, I would love to see you sit with a room full of 10-year-olds in Stepney and have a conversation with those kids and make sure they learn something.
It would be wonderful to see.
However, you'd need to be there for 15 years to see the results that you're talking about.
And it would need to be somebody as skilled as you.
No, but why would I be talking to the kids?
Because that's how you...
Let them get out of the ghetto.
No, no, you talk to the parents.
You talk to the parents.
They'll hit you.
You know, let's deal with...
No, no, are you saying, come on, man, are you saying that there are no people in those neighborhoods who listen to this show?
I'm certain that they're not listening to this show.
I'm certain that they don't understand the word you say.
Well, I think you might be surprised at the people who contact me and where they're coming from and how they're living and what they've chosen.
But look, I mean, this is an unfair thing, because I'm in the privileged position of getting these kinds of messages, and you've left most of that deep in the rear view, right?
Yeah, pretty much.
Yeah.
Okay, so it's not particularly an apt conversation, because I have information that you don't.
That sounds snotty, and I don't mean it that way, but...
No, no.
I mean, I've had a situation where someone came to me and said, can you look after my boy?
His dad is in Africa somewhere.
Can you look after my boy?
He needs a male role model.
So I go and I spend a lot of time with the kid and I find out that she's infantilizing the boy.
He's 18, she dresses him like a 12 year old.
She gives him a 12 year old's pocket money, etc, etc, etc.
So I say, hey, what do we do about this situation with your son?
You're treating him as if he's 12, but he's 18.
And she got angry.
Angry doesn't cover it.
Yeah.
You know, I don't know that this is true.
I put this out merely as a hypothesis.
In the past, generally, I shouldn't say generally, in a lot of situations that I've read about, women took care of the kids until the kids were six or seven and then they passed to the men.
And one of the theories in the past was that women were really good at raising babies and toddlers and men were necessary to raise older kids.
Yes.
Because of breastfeeding and this and that.
So women get the kids through the really early stages, and then when it comes time for the kids to be older, then you need more of a male influence.
I don't know what the truth is or behind it, but I think it's a very interesting concept, a very sort of interesting idea, that the degree to which single moms infantilize their kids is horrendous.
It's horrendous.
It's like they don't want them to grow up.
Because, of course, then the kids – if the kids grow up, then the single moms will be alone, right?
Because they'll be too old usually for a lot of sexual hijinks, so to speak.
Like I'm talking if like the kids when they're 30 or kids move out when they're like – when the moms are like 50.
And it's not like your sexual life is gone at the age of 50, right, or anything like that.
But it's tougher, right, to find dates and all that kind of stuff.
And so, yeah, there is a lot of infantilization.
Moms, in my experience, don't seem to be that good at figuring out when the kid has moved on from a particular phase.
They often just get kind of stuck where the kid is rather than recognizing that the kid is continually developing.
So you spend eight or nine hours on four or five separate occasions explaining it to her.
This is why I say it would be really interesting to see you in that scenario because you obviously had to communicate her.
But I'm sitting with this woman for eight hours over the course of a weekend trying to explain the concept of infantilization, trying to explain the concept of don't hit him when he's bigger than you because you'll find yourself locked in the bathroom.
Yeah.
And stuff like that.
Right.
Right.
I'm saying, well, look, I'm trying to talk to you about a subject that you have asked me to get involved in.
I can step and it's not an issue, but you're left with the problem that you had three years ago when I got involved.
Right.
Look, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but this is anecdotes, and I'm not going to disagree with you.
There are some people who act as if they don't have free will.
And there are some people who reject the gifts of free will.
And there are some people who, at some point, no longer have free will.
Because they have...
Left that muscle so long unexercised that it's atrophied and vanished, so to speak.
But that's the result.
I mean, like, if I say to you, well, you know, people can get healthy at any age.
People can exercise at any age.
And you say, well, what about the guy dying of lung cancer?
It's like, well, okay.
Yes, that guy can't get healthy, but that's because of the decisions he made earlier in life.
Right?
He now doesn't have the choice to get healthy anymore.
Because he chose to smoke for many years.
So now he no longer has a choice because he exercised bad choices earlier.
And yeah, I mean this woman may have exercised such bad choices for so long in her life that she no longer has any functional capacity to make good choices.
But that's just the effect of free will.
That doesn't mean that she never had free will.
Even though there was never anyone to fan that flame?
What do you mean, never anyone to fan the flame?
I mean, Dr.
Phil is like the most popular daytime TV show.
I don't know if there's an equivalent in England, but that's mental health resources being beamed into people's houses every single day for free.
I mean, my God!
I mean, what prior generations have ever had access to as many mental health resources as people have access to today?
Yeah, but that doesn't actually answer the question as to why these people are like that now.
Dr.
Phil wasn't around until 10 years ago.
These people have been doing what they've been doing.
Yeah, but before Dr.
Phil there was Oprah and there was Donahue and there were other people who were still promoting good mental health practices who had lots of psychologists on.
There is, I mean, the resources available since the internet came out in the 90s, the 80s really, but until it got big in the 90s.
Huge amounts of resources out there for mental health.
There's free therapy available to people who are under a certain income.
There are mental health resources that are a free phone call away.
I mean, the idea that they just don't have any access to anyone who can say or know or do anything better, to me, is not valid.
You can say that in the 14th century.
I don't know, 21st.
It's a little tough to argue.
No, I mean, I would say that you have...
A very, very, very quick wit.
You're a very clever bloke.
But what you see...
I don't think you actually understand that not everybody is as clever as you are.
Oh, come on.
But they're not.
Come on.
No, listen, listen, man.
Look, I appreciate what you're saying.
I really do.
I appreciate what you're saying.
But I was not clever when I was younger.
I was a mediocre student.
I never had any particular professional success when I was younger.
I was never like, oh my god, this guy's outstanding!
Get him into a gifted program or anything like that.
I was not distinguished intellectually when I was younger.
I'm not saying I was dumb, and I certainly had some raw horsepower.
Would you disagree with the statement that you are exceptional?
I certainly would.
Now, yes.
Absolutely.
But the question is why?
And the answer I've given before is because of philosophy.
Look, people, scientists weren't retarded in the 15th century or the 14th century and then got really smart in the 15th century.
What happened was there was the scientific method.
And they actually began applying their intellects in ways different.
That were sustainable and workable and you could build upon them and you could finally determine truth from falsehood in a reliable and repeatable fashion.
Doctors weren't like evil until the 20th century and then suddenly became virtuous and wanted to help their patients.
It's no medicine.
Through science, medicine advanced to the point where doctors could finally start doing more good than harm.
So there's a methodology that turns randomness into consistency and coherence.
It turns magic into science.
It turns scribbles into letters.
And it turns impulses into thought.
And it turns all of the whirly gig of the randomly oscillating disco graph of the human brain into something that you can build on consistently.
The wind can blow rocks into a pattern.
A human being can build a wall.
Because the human being has a methodology and a purpose.
I was relatively undistinguished When I was young, at the age of 16, I began to read philosophy, and things then began to change.
So I'm exceptional now because I've put 40,000 hours into philosophy and related disciplines, but it's philosophy fundamentally that has allowed me to harness the raw power of the mind, which I believe lots of people have.
And When you see, and I'll give you a good test for this.
This is useful for you and for other people.
If you want to know how smart people are, talk to a person who's immature and defensive and notice when their defenses come up.
Are they ever wrong?
No.
No.
The moment you start taking one step down the thousand mile road that leads to the truth about who they are, up come the blocks, right?
They know that whole journey and they use all of the power of their intellect to block truth, to oppose connection, to oppose reality.
They use all of the natural born genius of their minds to work against the truth.
That's how incredibly intelligent they are.
They know where that one little step is going to lead.
But that's not intelligence.
That's cunning.
Potato, potato.
It's still brilliant.
And you know this.
You've spent time around defensive people.
I've spent time around defensive people.
And when you start unpacking What might lead to challenges for them.
They know by the way you walk into the room.
They know before you even open your mouth.
They know exactly where it's going to lead.
And they're blocking you and fogging you.
You've heard me in this show trying to get through to people.
They're brilliant in what they avoid and what they evade.
All of the genius is used in the opposition of truth.
And I'm just saying, hey, flip that mother around.
Let's use this genius in the pursuit of truth.
And some people will do it and some people won't.
But that's the whole point.
It was when people started turning their backs and walking away from me that I knew there was something I didn't know.
Right.
So when they turned their backs and they walked away from me, I was like, okay, what did I miss there?
So I go and I read a book, and then I go and I read another book, and then I go and I read another book.
And I start to get some idea.
But the point is, the hunger for knowing why they were walking away, knowing why I wasn't worthy of their attention, This is why I read.
And I've noticed a lot of people in the places I'm talking about either don't have that hunger fanned, or indeed they do what Peck says in his book, they militantly try to protect themselves, even though that is against their best higher interest.
Yeah, I don't know about the best higher interest.
That's a pretty abstract case to make.
No, I mean, he wrote a whole book about it.
It's called, oh, hell, People of the Lie.
And he says that you approach a person, I'm talking about somebody I know very recently that I just met, and they've got all kinds of problems, and you see they've got all kinds of problems, and you say, look, mate, you know, all you need to do here is Is this?
And then all the blocks come up.
And then you say, okay, I can see there's nothing I can do, so you step away.
Now, at the point of stepping away, I'm doing what I saw other people do.
And then I'm the one then going, so what should I do?
And they say, read this book.
And you read the book.
And then you read another book.
And then you find your way out.
But what happens if nobody gives them that first book?
I mean, look, come on.
I mean, you can take that causal chain all the way back to infinity.
You know, what if there'd never been a Russian revolution?
Well, then Ayn Rand would never have written.
And what if the band Rush had never gotten into Ayn Rand, and then I never would have been given Ayn Rand, and then I never would have started.
I mean, you can go there forever, right?
Yeah, but you see, you...
But you're saying that people are passive, and if a pinball hits you, then you move in the right direction.
Pinholes are hitting people all the time.
You know how many people I've given books on philosophy to?
Do you know how many people have listened to the show and said it's crap, it's junk, it's garbage, it's whatever?
Do you know how many people I've given The Fountainhead to or Atlas Shrugged who read it or didn't read it or just sat on their shelf and so on?
So many times, you and I and other people have given people fantastic gifts.
Now, you and I, we obviously made the choice to read stuff.
Hey, is there some stuff in The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged?
It's really difficult, really challenging for me.
Plowed through it.
And you give people gifts and some people spit on those gifts.
It's like, well, nobody ever gave them a chance.
God damn it!
The modern world is nothing but chances.
It's nothing but opportunities.
The amount of information that surrounds people is staggering and unprecedented in history.
You can go to the public library for free and access the entirety of human knowledge online.
Once again, I have a library card.
You cannot.
You walk in there, you get what they've got.
That's it.
You order something, you go into the local library, you order something, you know, it can be nine months, ten months, maybe a year before you get it, if you get it at all.
No, no, I'm talking about the internet.
There's free internet access in the library.
There has been for 20 years.
Now there is.
But, you know, when did we access the internet en masse?
Eight years ago?
Nine years ago?
No, well, I mean, internet was available in universities and libraries over 20 years ago.
Yeah.
And libraries themselves!
My God, look throughout history!
Do you know how incredibly rare it was for people in the 18th century to get a hold of a book?
Stefan, I've been reading my entire life and there are gaps you could fly a 747 through in my ordinary everyday knowledge.
So?
So either I'm really stupid or the information isn't that common.
No, what are you talking about?
I mean, if you want...
Look, let me put it to you this way.
The argument that childhood has an effect on adulthood has been around for thousands of years.
Yes.
Wordsworth, the child is the father of the man, right?
Yes.
From Jung and Freud and so on for 150 years.
The idea has been around that childhood has an effect on adulthood.
In popular culture, self-help books, right?
Your erroneous zones, Dr.
Wayne Dwyer.
I mean, I remember all this shit.
These books were dusty when I was a kid.
That is almost half a century ago.
This all came out in the 50s and the 60s, in particular the 60s.
I've bought those books.
I've spent thousands of pounds on those books.
A lot of those books are completely useless.
If you're looking, and you're looking, and you're looking, you'll find one or two decent books a year if you're lucky.
Don't get me wrong.
I agree with you that stuff's missing.
That's why I'm doing a show.
But the idea that people don't have access to knowledge, to stuff that's useful and important and helpful...
I own a lot of money, which is why I can do it.
I own a lot of money so I can go and I can buy ten books and know that all ten are rubbish and not really...
Give a toss.
People on welfare, people on unemployment have a lot more time than you do, and free books from the library.
You're not going to find Life Lessons by Dr.
Phil in the library.
You're not going to find it.
Yes, you are.
Guaranteed.
In a British library?
I can't imagine why not.
Because they don't have it.
And when you ask for it...
Wait, I mean, aren't you basically talking through your ass here?
I mean, you obviously have not looked for Dr.
Phil books in British libraries.
Actually, I have.
You've got to remember, the last six years, I've spent...
The last seven years, I was in therapy, which meant...
I couldn't...
I was so...
When I went into that deep therapy, I was so knackered, so nobbled, that I couldn't work.
So emotionally bothered that I couldn't get up before 12.
And in those days, I had to go to the library if I wanted to read something.
Do you see what I mean?
I went through a lot, and only after my therapy was over did I feel the power to be able to go and sit behind my desk and make some money.
But the therapy took it all out of me.
I was, you know, from Ferrari to riding the bus.
It's only now I'm getting back into driving Ferraris and having fun.
I mean, people talk about, oh, you should do some therapy.
Mate, it's horrible.
Doing therapy is horrible.
You know, and in those days, I know I went to the library, I tried to get this book, I'd save up so I could buy something from Amazon that was used because I needed a fix.
And then on a broken computer that I managed to fix, I found your show.
And that helped me through the last part of my therapy.
Because you were saying stuff that my therapist at £120 an hour wasn't bloody well saying.
Imagine that.
I find that amazing.
Jonathan, I just want to point out a listener did do a quick search and found some Dr.
Phil books via the London Public Library.
You can pull up a bunch of Dr.
Phil books.
You got me, I'm sorry.
Someone in the chat room found us.
I'm afraid you're talking to a team.
Sorry to be annoying.
That's brilliant.
I'm like the only guy with Google in the bar argument.
No, but...
Alright, I can see.
No, look, if it's not Dr.
Phil, though, I mean, I remember the psychology book, psychology section in my local library was like a whole wall.
Yeah, but most of that stuff's rubbish.
You know that.
It's not terrible.
Alright, hang on a second.
If you're not teaching somebody the ten life laws, or you're not teaching them the seven habits, what are you teaching them?
Wayne Dyer?
Deepak Chopra?
I mean, come on.
Well, Deepak Chopra I don't think is classified under psychology.
It's classified under mystical fish wrapping.
Thank you.
Because a lot of it is complete cobblers.
And if you haven't got two or three marbles rolling around inside your cranium, you're going to get the wrong idea.
You know, there are landmark books that actually give you something concrete to stand on.
Yeah, no, I mean, I've read a lot of books in psychology, and it's a lot of sand and not a lot of gold.
But the gold is gold, I mean, for sure.
I still remember very vividly the major lessons that I got out of some of that stuff.
But, no, look, I agree, and partly why I'm doing this is I think that the art of self-knowledge is something that needs...
Well, I could say just a little bit of honing in the world.
And I agree with you that people have shitty childhoods.
I agree with you that IQ and intelligence has something to do with it.
For sure.
Absolutely.
But I am concerned...
And the reason...
If you and I were having a private discussion, you know, whatever, right?
But this is a public discussion.
And my concern is that because you're a charismatic and convincing fellow, which is probably one of the reasons you ended up with a Ferrari...
I think we have a Ferrari input slot at FDRURL.com slash donate.
It will send you over, and I'm going to test your magnetic poon theory for the Ferrari.
I'll give it back.
It may not be quite as clean as when you received it, and it may need a liberal dusting with antibiotics, but I am curious.
And of course, you can find the input slot.
We'll email it to you.
Oh shit, what was I saying?
But yeah, so my concern is that people are out there, and if you're like, oh, they don't have a chance, or what chance do they have, and so on...
That there are people out there who I think do need to be reminded that until you're dead, you can change.
I don't know the alchemy that goes behind change, but until you're actually dead, you can change.
And then you do change, you just obviously decompose.
But I think that there...
I'm very resistant to saying, can't win, don't try, to people.
I'm not saying that's your whole message, but I'm just...
I'm very concerned about that.
And I, you know, maybe...
There's places where it's valid, but I have a very difficult time getting to that place.
And certainly putting it out as a neighborhood-wide generic, I think, is basically throwing the lid of the coffin over people who might still be breathing.
I wouldn't say I'm doing that.
It's just that I've traveled a bit.
I've seen Watts.
I've seen Harlem.
I've seen Brooklyn.
I mean, there are ghettos everywhere.
You go to Jamaica, there's a ghetto.
You go to Africa, there's a ghetto.
You go to France.
France!
Paris!
Beautiful Paris!
There's ghettos there.
And these people all have the same looks on their faces.
And do you think they have no chance?
No.
No.
I mean, two or three, ten or fifteen, we'll get out of there.
But you won't get hundreds and thousands and millions moving until we get people who are skilled in there helping them.
Well, you know, that's what I'm trying to do, too, right?
There's a reason why I do, like, fuck evil shows, right?
Because somebody pointed out that, you know, they like what I do because it's philosophy, but it's not arcane.
It's not Latin, right?
What you do is amazing.
I mean, you've said things that I've never read in any book, you know, and I'm like, wow.
Well, that's because most books have sane editors.
So, you know, there's a filter called sanity between the author and the audience.
But anyway.
I'd never heard peaceful parenting explained in the way that you explained it.
Never.
It's my whole life.
I've heard people say, oh, you can't raise children and you can't beat them.
And then I'm like, okay, well, all right, so what do you do if you're not beating them?
And I've never heard anybody explain it the way you did.
Now, I mean, you do that, they hear that, they will change.
Right.
But, you know, do you have a government role?
I think you bloody well should have.
Ugh!
Yuck!
No, thank you.
No, then I'm facing the government.
I always want to be facing the listeners.
It's what we keep saying to people.
Hey, man, why don't you run ads?
It's like, because I want to be facing the listeners.
I don't want to be in the business of delivering listeners to app ads.
So, I mean, why are they not...
I mean, have you seen the dingbats that they have that they give social work degrees to?
Have you seen them?
You know, I was talking to the head of social services who was head of an area when a little girl starved to death in Tottenham.
She was eating out of people's bird baskets.
And I spoke to their £75,000 a year head of services and I swear to God, I mean, what is going on?
Why are they not actually spending any actual money on any actual information?
Well, Tottenham, isn't that where the...
The Indian community was preying on the girls as well?
Is that Tottenham?
I'm not sure if that's true.
There's not a very big Indian community in Tottenham.
Well, so somewhere, Mike, sorry to keep pestering you for this, but there was a story in England about pedophilia.
There was a pedophilia gang that was running for many years.
Those guys, yeah, that's in Bradford.
Bradford.
Well, that sounds like Tottenham if you're deaf.
So I just wanted to cover my ass now.
And you're not facing towards the person who's saying it.
And you're blind.
And it's not typed out.
And you have no way of determining truth and falsehood.
But yeah, that's another example, right?
Where pedophiles were praying, I think for the Indian community, were praying on these mostly white girls.
This went on for years.
It was known about for years, but of course some people were afraid of being called racists for talking about this.
It does happen.
They suffer for nothing.
They fail and what happens?
Their funding gets increased.
It's like paying kids to not pass a test.
Yeah, they just sent 14 Somalians down in Bristol for, I think, 40 years for six of them and the others haven't been sentenced yet, but they're passing around 12 and 13 year old girls as well.
Horrifying.
Especially as a father of two girls.
Oh, gotcha.
You know, what I did with my girls is they didn't leave school on their own.
A governess followed them.
They still complain about it to this day, but I tell you, I wasn't having it.
They weren't leaving school and walking around with their friends and putting on midriff tops and lipstick.
I wasn't having it.
So the governess has followed them home, took them to the movies, helped them with their homework, and they'd hate me for it, but At least I know nobody was getting their hands on my 13-year-old books.
UK woman who reported Muslim pedophilia forced into diversity training.
What?
Yeah.
What's that, sorry?
Oh, it's just a headline.
UK woman who reported Muslim pedophilia was forced into diversity training.
I'll get you a little bit more on that.
Hang on a sec.
Um...
You must never again refer to Asian men, and your awareness of ethnic issues needs to be raised.
This chastisement was given to a UK Home Office researcher who apparently was thought guilty of racism.
Her offense?
She blew the whistle on a pedophile ring in the English town of Rotherham.
One in which the girl victims were white and the abusers Muslim Pakistani.
Sorry, not Indians, Pakistanis.
About 1,400 children were sexually exploited in a northern England town.
Between 1997 and 2013, a town of some 250,000, the report described rapes by multiple perpetrators, mainly from Britain's Pakistani community, and how children were trafficked to other towns and cities in the north of England, abducted, beaten, and intimidated.
So, there were examples of children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, threatened with guns, made to brutally witness violent rapes, and threatened that they would be next if they told anyone.
Girls as young as 11 were raped by large numbers of male perpetrators.
These crimes continued for 16 years not because authorities were unaware of them, but rather because of an apparent hear-no-evil, see-no-evil, speak-no-evil attitude in government.
authorities that something was wrong.
Quote, but they continually ignored the concerns that were raised, says Hart.
And in one case, a social worker was disciplined for raising concerns.
The perpetrators were Pakistanis, and political correctness trumped law enforcement actions.
And now more details have emerged about the kind of discipline meted out.
They illustrate well why police and other officials were intimidated into silence.
Yeah, this woman basically was...
You can search this story, of course, but because the perpetrators were Muslims and Pakistani, it was considered racist to do something to protect the white children who were being repeatedly brutalized and raped.
And then political correctness, of course, just another complete cancer on society, courtesy of leftist Marxists who wish to destabilize what's left of Western society.
But...
So, I just wanted to sort of mention that.
I mean, I wouldn't say it's the leftist Marxist.
It's just the Marx brothers and the Keystone Cops when you go into any local authority office.
These people, you know, they really shouldn't be allowed out in the rain.
They're so incompetent.
It's not even funny.
Yes, but at least they're competent as valid by their immense pensions and massive expenses.
So, yeah, six of one.
Over here, it's a massive problem.
Social services staff These people earn a lot of money for doing absolutely subtle.
All right, my friend, I think we have wound ourselves to the end.
I really want to thank you for the conversation.
It was enjoyable and enlightening.
I'm going to send you my resume because apparently you just shit gold.
I want to be underneath you in the bowl with a butterfly net when it comes sliding out.
I just find that enormously impressive.
And since I only judge a man by the size of his wallet, thank you for donating your Ferrari.
We will certainly let you know how it goes.
Can a Ferrari overcome a bald head?
We'll find out on the next installment of I'm on My Way to a Penicillin Clinic.
Anyway, have yourself a wonderful, wonderful week, everyone.
And thanks for all of your support.
FDRURL.com slash donate to help out and keep the show alive, baby.
We will talk to you, I guess, Wednesday is our next call-in show.
I look forward and await with baited breath, with fishhooks in my throat, with baited breath, for our next conversation.
