To what degree is it immoral to maintain relationships with statists, theists and other people who have deranged beliefs? Are you an accomplice to a crime? Have you set events in motion which have led to immorality? Were you an accomplice to the War in Iraq? Once you make the philosophical case for the immorality of the use of force, how long do you give somebody before considering them morally complicit? What is the moral standing of those around you?
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| Question from a listener. | |
| This is a question that blurs what Steph would call aesthetics and morality. | |
| To what degree is it immoral to retain relationships with statist theists and other people who have deranged beliefs? | |
| A fine question. | |
| I have answered it quite a number of times before, but I certainly don't mind taking another swing at it. | |
| The diamond has beautiful light from its many facets, so I'll take another approach. | |
| So... | |
| If your participation is essential to the commission of a crime, then you are charged as an accomplice. | |
| Driving through a city is not illegal. | |
| But if you are the getaway driver to a set of bank robbers, then now what you're doing is illegal. | |
| So I can go and pick up my wife from the bank and drive her someplace perfectly legal. | |
| However, if my wife, again... | |
| And if she knows, in fact, that I'm going to be the getaway driver, and if furthermore, which seems the most likely, it would be impossible to rob the bank without a getaway driver, then I am that which has enabled the crime. | |
| I am that which has, in a sense, caused the crime, right? | |
| If there's no getaway driver, she can't get away on foot. | |
| She can't hail a cab, and so on, right? | |
| So the only ride she's going to get is from the cops. | |
| If a man wants to borrow my gun saying he's going to shoot his wife and I give him the gun, I am now an accomplice. | |
| And as an accomplice, the crime at least of shooting the wife could not have happened without my lending of the gun and therefore I have some responsibility. | |
| And this, I've used this Libertopia 2010 speech, but this is very important stuff to understand. | |
| It's kind of counterintuitive in a way. | |
| But it is important to understand. | |
| So the common law tradition says if you set events in motion that result in someone's death, you are guilty of that person's murder, regardless of whether you killed the person or not, right? | |
| So there is a legal scenario, and this has occurred a tragic number of times. | |
| I walk in... | |
| To a convenience store. | |
| And I say, this is a stick-up. | |
| And I take my gun out and I point it at the cashier and say, give me all the money in the till. | |
| The cashier pulls out a gun, shoots at me, misses. | |
| The bullet bounces off a paint can and hits another customer in the head, killing him instantly. | |
| So I go to rob a store. | |
| The store clerk tries to shoot me, misses and kills another customer. | |
| I, as the robber, am charged with the murder of... | |
| I didn't pull the trigger. | |
| I didn't shoot. | |
| My gun can even be unloaded. | |
| It can even be a toy gun. | |
| It could be a gun carved out of soap. | |
| I could be essentially unarmed. | |
| Yet, I am charged with the murder of the innocent bystander shot... | |
| By the clerk, because I set the events in motion that resulted in the discharging of the clerk's weapon, and if I had not come in to rob the store, the clerk would not have shot the person, therefore I am responsible for the murder, for the death of the innocent bystander. | |
| Which goes to show you don't actually have to even have a weapon to be charged with the shooting death of someone. | |
| If you set events in motion that result in criminal activity, you are charged. | |
| You may be the only person charged, right? | |
| So in the first instance, if I'm the getaway driver for a bunch of bank thieves, then we're all charged, right? | |
| I'm charged with accessory. | |
| They're charged with grand theft. | |
| I guess I'm charged with grand theft auto. | |
| Because I'm the reason the crime happened. | |
| Because without the getaway car, there'd be no bank robbery. | |
| Most likely. | |
| Now, the interesting thing is, this can happen even if it takes me by surprise. | |
| So, if I pick up my brother who says, oh man, I need to go to the bank with some friends in balaclavas, right? | |
| I just need to go to the bank. | |
| He goes to the bank, goes saundering into the bank, and then comes running out And I hear alarms and sirens, and he comes running out with a big bag with a cartoony-style dollar sign printed on the side. | |
| And he hurls himself into my car with a shot friend and says, drive, drive, drive! | |
| I have, like, one second to make my decision. | |
| Like, I thought we were just going for an errand. | |
| Turns out he's robbed a bank. | |
| Now, if I drive, I have become an accessory. | |
| The fact that I was not alerted to this beforehand, I have like literally one second to make that moral decision. | |
| If I don't drive, then I'm not counted as an accessory because I didn't drive away. | |
| I can say, look man, I had no idea. | |
| The moment I realized I'd robbed the bank, I didn't drive anywhere because, you know, he's my brother and all, but robbed a bank. | |
| It's the bank's job to rob us. | |
| It's like watching a gazelle eat a lion. | |
| So even if you are suddenly made aware of your participation in the commission of a crime or your potential participation in the commission of a crime, you have like one second to make that decision, you are still culpable and responsible for that situation. | |
| So when we put these two things together, that if a crime occurs only because of your participation... | |
| And while it's true that you are not morally responsible prior to the understanding of the crime occurring, right, let's say that I was going to be the getaway driver, but I changed my mind. | |
| While the crime was going on. | |
| Let's say my brother and his friends are going to go rob a bank and I agree to be the getaway driver and then my brother gets shot and killed and I don't want to drive the other guys away. | |
| Well, I'm still responsible. | |
| I'm still going to be charged as an accomplice. | |
| Even if I changed my mind because they wouldn't have done the crime if I wasn't going to be there. | |
| So, if a crime occurs because of my participation, I am an accomplice to that crime. | |
| Number one. | |
| Number two, If I'm ignorant of the commission of that crime, I do not hold moral responsibility, but the moment I have knowledge of that crime, I now have moral responsibility in the support or non-support of that criminal activity. | |
| We all see where this is going, right? | |
| This isn't some sort of giant mystery. | |
| My God, I sound like Mr. | |
| Carson. | |
| No, not from WKRP. Anyway. | |
| So with regards to statism, let's just take the war in Iraq. | |
| The war in Iraq... | |
| The invasion and decimation of Iraq occurred because people supported it. | |
| If people had rejected it, if the polls had shown overwhelmingly that people rejected the war in Iraq and would vote out anyone who pursued the war, then the war would not have occurred. | |
| And so the war occurred because of individuals' support for the war. | |
| This is a mildly debatable point, but there's a reason why Obama deferred any action on immigration until after the elections. | |
| There is sensitivity to voting patterns on the part of politicians. | |
| And if, let's say, if for instance, if George W. Bush had proposed an invasion of Iraq, as he did in 2002-2003, if he had proposed an invasion of Iraq, And people have been so overwhelmingly against it that the Republicans would have been shut out in the next election. | |
| And furthermore, if they've been so overwhelmingly against it that they would have strongly voted for or been encouraging of impeachment and criminal proceedings against George Bush, he would not have started that war. | |
| He would not have. | |
| So... | |
| Those who cheered the war... | |
| We're accomplices to the crime, the international war crime of aggression, which is the most serious crime that can occur in international law. | |
| They are accomplices because each one of them was the getaway car driver to the bank robbery without whose participation the bank robbery would not have occurred. | |
| Now, most people are not aware that they are participating in a crime when they cheer on the state. | |
| When people say taxes are necessary, then they are cheering on the forcible transfer of wealth, which is called theft. | |
| It's called a shakedown, or it's called a strong-arm robbery, but it is theft. | |
| Taxation is theft. | |
| And so those who say, well, taxes are worthwhile, are participating in a crime. | |
| Government-funded science is a moral abomination and people say, well, there's good stuff that comes out of it. | |
| It's like, so what? | |
| You are still, by encouraging it, by justifying it, by supporting it, by saying it's good and useful and necessary and moral, you are participating in a crime. | |
| Because if nobody wanted government funding of science and they voted out politicians who wanted it, there would be no government funding of science. | |
| The whole legitimacy of the state rests upon the acceptance of the citizens. | |
| Not only the acceptance, but the praise and the perception of the state as morally virtuous and pragmatically necessary. | |
| So, I mean, you sell rope to the KKK. Well, anyway, you get the idea. | |
| So this is very, very important to understand. | |
| That the state is a criminal organization and its only legitimacy, its only capacity to function arises from the allegiance of the citizens to the concept of the state, to the virtue of the state, to the necessity of the state. | |
| I'm not talking about each individual action the state takes. | |
| Now, It's only the support that matters. | |
| So let's say I drive my brother to rob a bank. | |
| Well, I drive my brother to the bank. | |
| It turns out he's robbed the bank, and I'm horrified at this, but he puts a gun to my head and says, drive or I will shoot. | |
| Let's say there's some dash cam that captures all of this or whatever, right? | |
| Then I won't get charged, because I went there not knowing it was going to be a crime. | |
| And then when I realized it was a crime, I was in a state of coercion and therefore was a victim. | |
| Right? | |
| You don't charge the hostage with the commission of the crime. | |
| And so this does not refer to paying taxes at all. | |
| This doesn't refer to obeying laws. | |
| That's a gun to the head. | |
| So that's not a moral issue. | |
| The moral issue is the praise of the state. | |
| If the crimes of the state are only possible because of the praise of the citizens then those who praise the state and regard it as good and necessary are collaborators in criminal activity and they are the reason that the criminal activity is occurring. | |
| So, That is the moral, philosophical reality stripped of all pretense, all propaganda. | |
| That is the reality of the situation. | |
| Now, in common law, you can probably be charged for being the getaway driver even if you thought it was just going to the bank to make a deposit rather than a lead-enabled withdrawal. | |
| You would have one second to make that decision about whether to drive or not. | |
| I don't actually believe that it's just or fair to give status one second. | |
| I've now explained it to you. | |
| Are you with me? | |
| No! | |
| Criminal bastard! | |
| That I think is unfair. | |
| That undervalues the power of propaganda that people have been subjected to for a long period of time. | |
| So, you make the case. | |
| You patiently make the case about the state and about what it is and about how it works and about its moral nature and its functional capacities and its, you know, and this can take a long time. | |
| This can take a long time to break through to people. | |
| But you have the conversation and you illuminate people. | |
| You basically say, you're driving a getaway car in a bank robbery. | |
| You're driving a getaway car in a bank robbery. | |
| This was not a deposit. | |
| This was a robbery. | |
| This was a bank robbery. | |
| You're driving the car in a bank robbery. | |
| This is the only reason the bank robbery is happening. | |
| You're driving the car in a bank robbery. | |
| Violence, mayhem is a result of you being willing to drive this car, and so on. | |
| You get the idea. | |
| And, you know, be patient, be positive, be persuasive, give the facts, answer questions, overcome objections, and all this kind of stuff. | |
| So give them time. | |
| Give them time. | |
| And this is much more generous than common law gives the getaway driver, which is a second or two. | |
| I think spend months of time. | |
| Months of time. | |
| Years? | |
| Eh. | |
| Eh. | |
| I'm not a big fan of years. | |
| I mean, people can do whatever the hell they want. | |
| I'm not a big fan of years. | |
| But this is the case. | |
| I've made it in a fairly rapid amount of time and have this conversation. | |
| Discovering the moral nature of those around you is an essential task of a virtuous person. | |
| If you want to be a good businessman or woman, then you must discover the integrity and virtue of those around you. | |
| That's essential. | |
| I mean, if people are taking money for, say, land that you're offering for sale, it is your job to find out the moral nature and moral standing of those around you. | |
| Because they're acting in your name and relying upon your judgment and so on. | |
| So discovering the moral nature of those around you is essential to be a virtuous person. | |
| So it is not immoral to hang out with statists. | |
| It's not. | |
| I think that it lacks integrity to pretend that they're not involved in the commission of a crime that needs to be revealed to them for the sake of their souls, their happiness, and the good of the world. | |
| But it's not immoral because you are not directly initiating the use of force. | |
| Now, the question then becomes, what is the moral nature of those who support a crime That they open the acknowledge. | |
| Yes, the state is evil, and I support the state. | |
| Well, then you are an accomplice. | |
| And again, I don't have any particularly strong suggestions as to what happens after that. | |
| My choice is I simply don't. | |
| I ostracize evildoers. | |
| You know, I was told as a kid, don't hang with the bad crowd. | |
| Don't join a gang of criminals. | |
| So I'm just going with what I was taught. | |
| So if people openly acknowledge the crimes of the state but continue to support the state, then they are now accomplices. | |
| Which is why people won't acknowledge the evils of the state because when they do, they know that they have to change their behavior. | |
| That's why they fight tooth and nail and they want the conversation to go away and they fog and they avoid and this, that, and the other, right? | |
| So, make the case. | |
| Make the case. | |
| Or don't. | |
| Right? | |
| Again, you can do whatever you want. | |
| This idea that I tell people what to do is laughable. | |
| And it's only the very weak-willed who call an argument a compulsion. | |
| But that's what the right thing to do is. | |
| That's what the moral thing to do is. | |
| In terms of, like, not moral, like... | |
| Violence, opposing violence, but moral in terms of being honest and sticking by your values and making the case for a better world. | |
| That's how it rolls. | |
| I hope that helps. | |
| I hope you're having a wonderful, wonderful day. | |
| I hope that this is the starting points for some soul-saving conversations amongst yourselves and the people who are around you. | |
| And I guess FDRURL.com slash donate to help out the show. | |
| Always gratefully, gratefully appreciated and most, most necessary. | |
| All the best. |