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Aug. 30, 2014 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:40:56
2783 Finding Connection, Avoiding Loneliness – Wednesday Call In Show August 27th, 2014
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Time Text
Hi, everybody.
Stefan Molyneux from Freedom Main Radio.
Hope you're doing well.
Time for our Wednesday night show.
I have missed you, Lo, these past few days, and I don't think we have any massive announcements going on at the moment.
Mike, anything exciting to relate?
Yeah, we're going to do a couple extra shows at some point over the next few weeks to make up for the cancellations.
The week stuff flew to L.A., but don't have any announcements as to when those are going to take place yet, but we'll keep you posted.
Well, thank you.
Alright, so who do we have up first and what is on their brain?
Alright, up first is a very patient caller who has stood with us a couple times that he hasn't got on the show due to time considerations.
It is Josh.
And Josh initially wrote in and wanted to talk about a lack of internal motivation.
But that kind of changed because before the show he was originally scheduled for, he wrote me right before and said, you know, maybe I should give up my spot to someone who's more deserving.
Am I really worthy to call into this show?
I'm concerned about wasting everyone's time.
And I've heard this kind of thing before, and I certainly felt this kind of thing before, not specifically in regards to calling into the show, but just a lot of other things, not feeling worthy and concerned about wasting time and what other people will think.
And I thought that in and of itself would be a great topic for conversation, and Josh agreed.
So that is the subject.
All right.
All right.
So why do you think do you think people wouldn't be interested in your thoughts in your life experience in your questions?
Josh, is that what what you think the issue could be?
Yeah, yeah.
Sorry, I'm really, really nervous.
No, no problem.
Do you have thoughts that you think the world would benefit from or experiences or ideas or questions even that you think the world would benefit from?
I do, but I guess I have a nagging side of me that questions that.
And where do you think that comes from?
I have some ideas.
Okay.
Let me give you the 101 of providing value to the world.
If I ask you a question and you have some sort of answer, just give me the answer.
Don't tell me that you have some kind of answer, right?
I just caught that.
So where do you think that comes from?
Perhaps somewhere in my history?
Alright.
Do I need to get my dental implements out to get these answers from you?
How are you feeling right now, Josh?
Uh, super, super anxious.
And were you feeling that way before you started talking?
Or did it just, was it like kind of a general anxiety and then it spiked?
Or have you been feeling really anxious the whole time?
It's like right now.
Right.
It's, like before I was like, oh yeah, I have like all this, like I don't know, I had like all this stuff like worked out.
Like, I just kind of flopped.
Well, do you mind if...
I know we're still early in the call.
I don't want to go into a monologue or something.
But I could share my experience with this kind of thing if you'd find it helpful.
See if there's any similarities and maybe that can provoke some further conversation.
Okay.
You know, when you sent me that email, it's certainly something I really related to.
Because I would go into any type of situation where I was not feeling...
Anything outside my comfort zone, which for me when I was younger was, I mean, standing in line at the grocery store was outside my comfort zone.
Like any type of social situation, any type of thing where I would have to communicate with somebody, it was really difficult stuff, really challenging stuff.
And I would always try and strategize exactly how the conversation would go or how the interaction would go.
And You know, that's an almost thankless task.
I was like, if I can come up with how this is going to go down to the letter, I'll know what to say when, and I'll have a good response to whatever a question is, or if something happens, what I'll do, and I'll be really prepared.
And that was exhausting.
It was absolutely exhausting.
And it never worked as well, because I'd be so in my head trying to think of, okay, if this is done, I should do this, and if that's done, I should do that.
I wouldn't be present in the conversation.
The whole reason why I would do that and that planning and strategize as to how things would go and how I should react is because I was just incredibly terrified of getting attacked by people.
I'm going to say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, put the wrong foot in the wrong place, bump into somebody, and someone's going to scream at me.
It would always...
I would build up that feeling of like, oh my goodness, someone's going to scream at me.
And I'd get so worried and anxious about it that it would almost become a self-fulfilling prophecy or an inevitability.
Because I would get so tense and so anxious and so concerned about something like that happening that I wouldn't be present in the moment.
And I wouldn't be able to communicate with people.
And the anxiety would just well up within me and it felt like I was trapped.
And then I would just kind of sit there.
And people would get frustrated with me or I'd do something like not be paying attention, bump into somebody or not do something simple that if I was just sitting at home on my couch, I'd be like, oh, of course I'll do this.
That makes sense.
But I'd be so anxious that I would just do stuff that I would otherwise never be inclined to do.
And it all came from the fear of getting attacked.
But the planning and the fear almost made it a self-fulfilling prophecy that that kind of stuff would occur in the first place.
Does that ring any type of bell, or is that similar to your experience at all?
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, that's a good description of what my...
Well, yeah, I mean, when I was younger, like, I would do that all the time.
Like, I had this great fear of, like, everyone.
And, like, I would always, like, kind of, like, plan in my head, like, oh, if you, like, Like throws this punch at me.
I'll just do this or whatever.
And was it that kind of stuff?
Like punches?
Is that the...
Yeah.
Wow.
Oh man.
Like a real lack of...
I don't know how to lack of trust, but like just...
Yeah.
How are you feeling now?
A little bit better.
It's still anxious, but it's still a little dissipated?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
When you had these...
I know with me, I'm sitting there and I plan stuff out in my head.
Now looking back on it, the thing that really strikes me is like, good God, didn't anyone notice I'm planning this stuff out and I'm so stuck in my head thinking of stuff and I'm not present in the moment?
Was there anyone that you could talk to about that kind of thing?
Or anyone that would have your back and go, Hey, Josh, what's going on?
Nope.
It appears Josh has accidentally...
Are you back, Josh?
I just had an internet hiccup.
Yeah, I'm back.
But yeah, it was to the point where I just withheld myself talking to people really badly.
So there wasn't anyone that...
No, I don't.
See, I say no, I don't think so.
Did I? It's kind of foggy in my mind.
All right.
I did notice you also, you kind of laughed there.
At the beginning when you were talking about that?
Yeah.
Yeah, I got that.
Yeah.
I've done it too.
I just want to bring it to your attention because I think it's something that's important.
Yeah.
Did Josh did people take pleasure in your presence a lot as a child I Think my physical presence but not much else What do you mean?
Well like I have friends come over and or I guess some older friends and they'll come over and we would play games and like physical activity but I Never really communicate with them.
And what about your thoughts and feelings?
Were people in your family or around your extended family or friends, were they curious about your thoughts and your feelings when you were a child?
Looks like his internet cut again.
*sad music* I mean, just while we're waiting for him to come back in, as a father now for a little over five and a half years, the emergence of thought from The grand ocean of infancy is just astounding.
If New York City rose out of the depths of the Pacific, Can you imagine the amount of staggering excitement and curiosity and wonderment that would emerge?
And seeing thoughts and ideas and preferences and objections and jokes and skepticism, seeing not just a personality, but thoughts themselves emerge from the primordial ooze of infancy is just the most amazing thing.
To experience.
You know, there was no person.
And now there's a person.
And that person has preferences and thoughts and ideas and dislikes and likes and skills.
I was playing a verbal game with my daughter the other day.
And I talked about earlier this summer, we saw...
A turtle.
And I said, I was pretending to be someone who didn't know what a turtle was.
And I said, and then I saw a rock with legs and a head.
And she's like, oh, a turtle!
Like, just got it like that.
That, to me, that association would never have occurred, right?
I mean, if she wasn't there, the conversation as a whole would not have occurred.
And I find it just incredibly, I don't know, fascinating, sounds all kind of Vulcan, but it is just an absolutely staggering and amazing and beautiful and as close to magical as I can imagine thing to see the emergence of consciousness, the emergence of not just a personality but of thought.
Watching my daughter learn how to make jokes, finding out what What is funny for her?
What is not funny for her?
And why?
That is an amazing, amazing experience to go through.
I don't think I will ever tire of it.
I don't think I will ever take it for granted.
I want to kiss her hair all day.
I must kiss your brain!
And then she freezes me with her freeze ray, which is always quite a challenge.
But seeing the emergence not just of playfulness, but of real genuine thought out of like a sperm and an egg and an incubation time.
I mean, it's just the most amazing thing that I can conceive of.
And that I think is, I don't know if that's as widely shared among some parents as it could be.
Josh, are you back?
It's showing he's online.
It's showing he's connected.
We'll give him another sec, otherwise we'll move on to another call.
But I think that one of the great challenges is to reject how we are viewed by others is an essential survival skill, if you're engaged in doing anything even remotely remotely.
Significant or important with your life.
You must not place your self-esteem in the eyeballs of others.
You simply cannot surrender your power to that degree.
Now, don't get me wrong, praise is nice and attacks probably are not so nice and all that, but the reality is you really cannot surrender your judgment to To the judgment of others.
I mean, because it is your life, and it is your brain, it is your consciousness, it is your evaluation of things that really counts, not other people's evaluations of things.
There's almost no better way to invite difficult people into your life than to surrender your judgment to the prejudices of others.
And if we look at, you know, I think The important people who've helped move forward the human condition have done so against the great opposition and hostility of significant portions of people around them, right?
So first person who said, well, no, we shouldn't have slaves.
Well, that was overturning things that were considered essential by everyone around them.
And it is absolutely essential, I think, for real happiness.
To make sure that you do not surrender your sense of self to how others perceived you either in the present or in the past.
So hopefully we'll be able to get Josh back another time.
I'm very sorry that we've not been able to hang on to him.
He's not here now, is he?
Are you there, Josh?
He's showing connected, but he's connected and dropped off three or four times.
This is the perfect...
It was perfect.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, you feel your lack of voice and then Skype takes your voice, right?
Yes, absolutely.
Oh, well.
How do you want to proceed? - Indeed. - Yeah.
Amen.
Well, so according to your ACE, someone spent time in prison.
and perhaps you could tell a bit about that.
Um, it was an uncle who spent time, well, he'd it was an uncle who spent time, well, he'd visit every so often and when I was really young and
And every time he'd visit, I don't know why they brought him over, but It seemed like every time he was there, there was always huge amounts of fighting and just really, really scary stuff.
And I remember I was, I don't know, like a tall three or so.
And I would always run up and hide whenever that was going on.
It was the same with my brother, except he didn't go to prison.
Right.
And what would you like to get out of your conversation today, do you think?
what would be ideal for you?
Yeah, I mean, I've been wrestling with that.
I don't know, maybe some clarity on why this is so hard for me.
Then when you say this, do you mean this kind of conversation?
I guess like the...
I guess, for example, like the direction I want to...
or I guess what I want out of the call.
Because right now, Josh, you are engaged in a self-fulfilling prophecy with me.
I'm not.
Hmm.
So let me ask you, what do you think it's like to be on the receiving end of this conversation?
I feel a tad disconnected.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah, that's not what I asked.
Sorry.
What do you think it's like to be on the receiving end of this conversation?
Not you, but me.
Sorry, I guess that was angst.
Sorry, sorry.
What I meant was, what do you think it's like to be me in this conversation?
In other words, do you think that you are helping me with this conversation?
Absolutely.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely what?
Not.
Okay, so you are not particularly engaging in the conversation.
Your words are coming very slowly.
And so to be on the receiving end of the conversation is a challenge.
And the way that it's going to play out if you don't interrupt that process is that I'm going to have to move on, which I don't want to do.
And you're going to feel really bad.
And that is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, which I would like to interrupt, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, I'm really, like, really trying to get through this.
I just...
Good.
Now, you sound better already.
I appreciate that.
Yeah.
Well, let's not have that happen, right?
I mean, that's not how you want things to play out, right?
Yeah, I really, really don't.
Okay, good.
All right.
So, did people, when you were a child, ask you what you thought and ask you what you felt and listened to the answers?
No.
Okay.
I was attacked for that.
You were attacked for sharing what you thought and felt?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, only if it was like Positive, like, whatever.
Like, whenever I come back and be like, oh, I had a bad day, I just get, like, scorned.
And, like, a lot of, like, I don't know, it's like, you're starving kids in Africa, you can't feel anything type of stuff.
I'm sorry, I'm having trouble following what you thought, or what you mean.
Can you say that again?
Just...
Like really like downplaying my feelings and I guess like I remember sometimes like they pile on like I'm so, actually never mind, I'm probably going off a bit with that other thing.
Okay, so did you share much of what you thought and felt with others when you were a child?
Rarely.
Bye.
Thank you.
and what would happen if and when you did?
I remember instances with my mother where it was negative all the time, and I don't really remember much else.
My memory of my child is a bit foggy.
Right.
So if you didn't have people interested in what it is that you had to say, then... then...
How, in a sense, would you have the sort of experience with the back and forth to share what it is that you want to say?
I wouldn't.
Right.
Right.
I guess that shows right now.
Yeah, and so, in a sense, we're like speaking in A new language, right?
In this kind of conversation, we're speaking in a new language, where I really want to understand where it is that you're coming from, and I really want to share...
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, I've just discovered this.
I've been actually studying Japanese the past week or so, and it just dawned on me.
English is almost like a new language for me now just because I've spoken it so little just throughout my life.
Thank you.
Right.
So spontaneous and open sharing of your thoughts and feelings would not be something that you have much experience with, right?
Not at all.
Right.
Right.
So I hope that you will be patient with yourself, just as you're patient when you're learning a new language like Japanese.
You'll be patient with yourself and say, well, I'm trying to learn something new here.
I'm trying to do something new here.
And so it's not going to be easy.
And, you know, if I don't do it well the first time, that's sort of entirely to be expected, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I can see that.
Right.
Do you know why people didn't take much of an interest in you when you were a kid?
I don't know.
And what if you had to guess, what do you think?
Sorry, what was the question again?
Thank you.
If you had to guess as to why people didn't take much of an interest in you when you were a child, what would you think?
Because sometimes I would contradict I don't like What they thought were Or like a story or something Thank you.
I'm not sure what that means, a story or something.
Well, I guess I just have that one memory to go by with my mother, but it seemed like she had this image of a happy whatever Happy whatever, like, existence or family or whatever, something like that.
And, like, me coming home saying, oh, I had a bad day, like, kind of pricks at that.
Okay, so your mom kind of had a...
That's what you meant by a story.
She's had an image of what a happy family would be, what they would look like, and then if you came home and it didn't fit that image, that would be a problem.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Right.
And was your mother a happy person?
I don't think so.
Why don't you think so?
Just...
I get it.
Sorry, my memory is just so foggy.
It's just like all the negativity brought down on me.
Sorry, you said all the negativity brought down on you?
Wait, have you stopped trying in the conversation?
Because it kind of sounds like you've stopped trying in the conversation.
God.
Sorry.
Because it sounds like I'm...
Like we're having a conversation, like I'm throwing bottles with messages into the water.
They float across to another country, and then you read them and then send them back.
Yeah, I mean...
Right, so...
Because this is the...
It seemed like you were trying to push through that those kinds of delays and now it seems like you're not Yeah, just Because when I hear you say that, like, it's like the exact same experience I have with myself.
Oh, so you ask yourself a question and then you very, in a very delayed way, you get a response.
Is that right?
Yeah, or just like abstract or just.
So it's like, I can't.
Yeah, so I mean, I get with myself.
So it's just like...
All right, so...
I don't think she was happy because...
I don't know.
Okay, well let me ask you this.
like when I ask you a question like that, do you have an answer that you don't want to share or you don't have an answer? - I don't have an answer.
I think I do, but it's just really, really, really well fogged or something.
Okay, so are you censoring yourself when it comes to sharing any thoughts or feelings with me?
In other words, are you having thoughts and feelings and then you're sort of putting them through a filter to make them more acceptable to me or to others?
No, no.
I don't know how much effect this might have had, but I went through like seven years or...
Or, like, I'd say four years of psychotropics.
And, like, three years of ADHD meds.
And I, I guess I have a, I'm just like, just guessing, but it might have had an effect on My memory.
You're right.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know what the specific medical effects are of those things.
Well, just through other conversations, sorry.
Yeah, and you're off them now, is that right?
Yes, I just got off the antidepressants half a year ago.
Right, okay.
Okay.
When you listen to conversations that occur on this, in this venue, right on this show, what is your experience of those conversations?
Are you excited?
Do you feel alarmed?
Do you follow them?
Do they seem weird?
I... I do follow them.
They do, I guess, grab hold of certain things inside of me emotionally.
I guess that connects with me, if that makes any sense.
Right.
Well, I mean, if you don't have any, if you don't have any inner experience, I'm obviously not going to ask you to make any up, right?
I mean, that would be kind of like, yell to me at a language you don't understand wouldn't make much sense to me, right?
But if you're saying, listen, I want to have more meaningful conversations, then I'm asking you questions about things which you don't have any emotional response to about your history.
Then I'm sort of stymied about where to take the conversation, if that makes sense.
I mean, we could talk about the weather, which you could probably do, right?
Or we could talk about sports or politics or something, which you could probably do.
But if you're not having any inner responses or any kind of deep responses to what it is that I'm saying, then we can't really have a conversation, if that makes any sense, at least about these topics.
At least, I can't think of a way.
Now, if you're self-censoring, that's a different matter, right?
Right.
Like if I'm asking you questions, you're like, oh, yes, but I need to really massage the answer.
That's a different situation.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think I can feel emotion and connection under the surface of what it is that you're saying.
That's a lot of anger.
Sorry?
That's a lot of anger.
Okay, so let's talk about that.
Tell me about your anger.
It's alright.
This is what this conversation is for.
Nothing that we feel can hurt us here.
Can only help, right?
Take your time.
Take your time.
I just...
It's just like I... I just can't figure out No, no.
Don't give me the fog.
Don't give me the fog, brother.
Don't give me the fog.
Don't give me the helplessness.
You got enough of that already, right?
So when I said that there was emotion right below the surface, you said anger and then you felt teary, right?
Yeah.
So, what's the anger?
Would you like a few suggestions?
Yes.
Well, let me ask you this, Josh.
When you had significant problems thinking and feeling and expressing, were you helped or were you drugged?
I was drugged.
Drugs.
Now, did anyone have any issues with you being drugged?
Or did they say, yeah, that's what we should do?
They're all on board.
They're all like, yeah, drugs.
Nothing wrong with the family, nothing wrong with his childhood.
Let's just hit him with drugs, right?
Yeah, and just remembering now...
It was right around, like, I, like, just really started laying in on, like, I guess I had a moment where I just thought, like, oh, this is just...
I guess the state of quietness was a little bit BS, so I just, like, started laying in with, like, questions about Just like the school system, my family, and just all that stuff.
Now we're losing the emotion again.
Okay, so let's go back, right?
So you're abstracting and fogging, right?
Yeah.
Did your family ever say, well, this, you know, Josh seems to be having trouble thinking and feeling and expressing.
Let's look and see if there's anything that we might have done that might have contributed to this.
Did that ever occur?
No.
Right.
So, given that it seems possible that there was some family dysfunction, that was never discussed, that was never examined, that was never put on the table, it was just like, yep, drug it.
Yes.
Yes.
And did anyone talk about anything that occurred after that or discuss anything that may have gone wrong with your childhood that may have resulted in your lack of connection?
or was it basically just drugs and solved?
No.
I even brought up, like, during the psychotropics era, I would bring up, like, Well, maybe this problem is something to do with the childhood and whatever and...
And never went anywhere.
Right.
Right.
And then you were dragged for years, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And did it solve your problem?
No.
It's like...
They might as well just take me at the beginning and just like freeze me and then just wake me up.
Like seven years later.
Right.
Or at least I wish I was...
At least it's not actively doing damage.
And did you ever do talk therapy?
Or did your family ever do therapy?
Not my family.
I took...
At first I took a...
I guess my parents put me on...
Took me to a therapist or something.
But they were in the office with me.
Oh, they stayed in the office the whole time that you were talking to the therapist?
Yeah, and I was going through, like, just a lot of, like, a great amount of emotional stuff, and I don't know if...
Sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but the therapist would just, like, basically just ask me, just talk about the weather and stuff, and And then just later on just like recommended drugs.
And then or like I guess antidepressants and then antidepressants went to antipsychotics and that led to hell.
And what do you mean, Hill?
Just like...
Just a constant feeling of like...
Losing my mind I'm just I'm just Just like always like...
I even had like...
Some delusion of like...
Some...
Alternate universe where you go to commit suicide or something.
Just really insane stuff.
I had to fight constantly.
Fight constantly for what?
To stay sane in your mind?
Yeah.
It's where like videos like the Elliot Rogers stuff just like really like just like just too too real for me.
Oh, just that, where you sort of get that fork in the road, and you know, if you take one particular set of beliefs...
It's like, I keep laying on like, I keep laying on like language, like, yeah, I guess delusion on delusion, on delusion, and just like, I don't know, it's just I reached a fork in the road and I was just like, I don't know, life or death type of thing.
And I guess there's some part of me that's just like, hell no, this is not how it's going to go down.
And I changed everything from there.
And that's why you wanted to get off this stuff?
Yeah, I refuse to do it anymore.
And even with that, I'm incredibly sorry for all that you've experienced.
And I mean, I certainly feel angry about it all.
*sniff* Very angry about it all.
And I don't want to I don't want to make it about what I think and feel.
Because that's the challenge, is that other people have made it about them and not about you, right?
But I think you've got a good reason to be pissed.
Because I'm not entirely convinced how much all of this was absolutely necessary.
yeah when i first went on like they put me
on like antidepressants and stuff was actually when i first started getting into like philosophy and anarchy and actually first found like this show
I was quite young and, like, started, I think, like, the estate stuff was, like, okay because it I guess it's a bit abstract for me, but when I started questioning the family stuff, I guess I got really emotional.
It just really hit me hard and the response was hysteria and to pile me with drugs.
You mean when you brought sort of issues and concerns to your family?
Yes.
And I clings to a philosophy.
I think that's what kept me sane through the rest of it.
That's my...
Yeah.
Well, Josh, what do you wish had happened?
What do you wish had happened instead?
that they hear me.
Listen to what I had to say.
Listen to what I had to say.
Does sadness feel safer to you than anger?
Yeah.
Why?
What's the problem with anger?
What's the problem with anger?
What's the problem with anger?
No, I guess that's a block.
What's the disaster scenario with anger?
what do you think is going to happen if you're angry murderous rage
Uh, right?
Go on.
It's a murderous rage, and...
I currently live with my parents.
Right.
Well, you can feel anger without acting on anger, right?
Yeah.
I mean, you can feel lust for a woman or a man or a goat or whatever trips your trigger.
You can feel lust for someone without acting on it, right?
Right.
I mean, you can look at a piece of cake and your mouth can water.
That doesn't mean you've got to faceplant into the cake, right?
Mm-hmm.
So...
Yeah.
But of course, I mean, if you're in a situation where there is a danger to your anger in terms of other people's reactions or something like that, then that certainly makes sense as to why...
This would be a threatening emotion to feel, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Do you have any access, or do you think you could have any access to a talk therapist rather than a drug psychiatrist?
I have a therapist now who seems...
He's a fairly new therapist.
That seems all right.
Although it's every two weeks, it seems, which I don't think is enough.
Right.
And what are your, I don't know, the old word used to be prospects, What are your prospects in life?
what are you aiming at or what are you aiming for in life?
I haven't given it much thought.
I guess I've been more focused on just getting out.
You mean sort of getting a job and moving out?
Yeah.
I guess I sort of thought, well, maybe it'd be best to just figure it out then.
How are you feeling now?
Light.
Light?
Yeah, like a...
lightness in my chest.
That's called connection, baby!
Yeah.
You know, connection is everything.
You know that in your heart, right?
Because otherwise, we really are trapped in a tiny, round skull prison, right?
Yeah.
Do you feel very isolated?
Do you feel disconnected from yourself?
We are a tribal species.
And connection with good people is essential.
I believe it's essential to our Mental, emotional, and physical health.
And I think you've done a great job tonight.
I think you've done a really great job tonight.
I mean, you listened, you responded, you adjusted, you, you know, I think that's, and the reward is that little glowing butterfly ball of lightness or of happiness or of relief, to know that we are not alone.
It is only words that can build the bridges between the prisons of our skulls, right?
It is only language.
And maybe art, but who has the time to have a conversation by...
Etch a sketching back and forth across the dinner table.
But it is only words that can build the bridges between the prisons of our skulls.
We live within our heads.
There's no astral travel that I am aware of.
And it is through words that we connect with our like-minded tribe.
And that was denying me so much.
Yes.
Yes.
And the words are just one aspect of it.
I mean, if you have a parent who is denying your experience for the sake of his or her own convenience, then it's really pretty much impossible, I would argue, it's pretty much impossible to stay connected and rooted within yourself.
If your spontaneous and natural experience Exhibition of being, communication of being, expounding of being, who you are, translated into language, into gesture, into expression.
The spontaneous, vivid, immediate, and connected communication of your experience as a human being If that is denied, attacked, rejected, virtually impossible to maintain it within yourself, right?
Yeah.
Look, there are lots of people in the world who would like for me to be doing something different, right?
Lots of people who love what I do.
Most people don't have a clue what I do.
Some people hate what I do.
There's lots of people in the world who would rather that I be doing something different with what I'm doing.
And there is no progress without disapproval.
Or I should say there's no substantial progress without disapproval.
Let's say that...
The StephBot phone company comes up with an unbreakable phone, like you could drive trucks over it, you can throw it at the ocean, it's unbreakable, right?
With a 12 billion by 12 billion resolution and a psychic dongle that communicates with your brain, right?
Well, I think we would consider that massive progress, right?
Certainly the NSA would.
Now, how would other phone companies feel about that phone?
The Steph bot 9,000 or whatever, right?
Are you asking me?
I am.
Oh.
Um...
I... Oh, Josh, this is not a good question.
How would other phone manufacturers feel about the most amazing phone in the universe?
Intimidated.
Would they feel happy or sad?
Would they feel angry or content?
Angry.
Right.
They would feel angry, frustrated, and they'd be out of business, right?
I mean, assuming I could manufacture it at a decent price, right?
All progress will necessarily provoke anger and disapproval.
And the more important the progress, the more anger and disapproval is provoked.
Now, you were born a spontaneous, self-exhibiting, openly communicating being.
When you were hungry, you cried out for food.
When you were uncomfortable, you cried out for comfort.
When you were lonely, you cried out for contact.
Right?
Yeah.
When you were happy, you giggled.
Right?
That was what nature and evolution placed within you, was the spontaneous exhibition of your own heart's experience.
Right?
it Yeah.
Yes.
And children need contact, babies in particular, need contact like they need food, right?
And to have a baby and starve it of connection is...
pretty equivalent to having a baby and starving it of food.
Everywhere I take my daughter, she talks to people, and she talks she talks to people, and she talks to people, and she talks to people, and talks to people.
In fact, while she's talking to people, she takes a quick breath to make sure that she can keep talking as quickly as possible.
And she asks them questions.
It's not a monologue.
She asks them what they think.
And she is a conversational based life form.
I guess like me.
And given that she takes quick breath, I think that words are as important to her as air.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And do you know why she talks so much?
She had so much to say.
No.
That's a great guess, but everybody has so much to say.
Is there any time during the day, Josh, when your mind is not doing something?
Yeah, you're right.
Everybody, there is not enough language in the world to communicate our inner experience in a real-time basis.
You know, I don't type books, and I haven't for years, years and years.
I dictate books.
I use Dragon NaturallySpeaking, which is a fantastic product, and I dictate.
Now, you know, even when I'm dictating, that's about as real-time a communication of thoughts and ideas as I can possibly get, other than just a straight-on solo podcast.
I'm still thinking, censoring, filtering, trying to make things make sense, and so on, right?
There is no amount of language enough for me to get even one second of your experience in this call.
For you to take one second experience in this call and to unpack it thoroughly through language would be days.
Do you know why my daughter talks so much?
Thank you.
It's not because she has a lot to say, because everybody, Josh, has an infinity of things to say.
Do you want to try another guess?
Or should I just say?
You can say it.
My daughter talks so much because she's listened to.
Because I'm fascinated by her.
Because her mother is fascinated by her.
because her friends love her.
And so she wants to share what her thoughts and feelings are because people are very interested in what her thoughts and feelings are, right?
So, You know what that's painful for, right?
Yeah.
I genuinely did not know.
Of course, and that's why I didn't want to have you keep guessing because that's very foreign to your experience, right?
In fact, it's one thing to be indifferent to what someone says.
says it's quite another thing to be hostile to what someone says.
You have a lot to say.
Thank you.
but you're not used to being listened to, I think.
There's a foreign language...
It's a foreign language.
Well, in a way, it's a negative language because, if I remember rightly, you said at the beginning of the call, Josh, that you would actually be rejected or attacked or you would have a negative experience if you were honest about your feelings that were inconvenient to others or your mother's preferences.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And there will always be people who will be hostile to what you're saying in this life.
Unless you're saying something so boring that plants wilt in your presence, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's an old cliche, but it's true.
It's like, well, they're lost, right?
Right, you know, the outraged people who occasionally message me, oh, I used to listen to you, you're so full of crap, bye!
You know, big slam, big slam at the big door, right?
Well, gosh, what a shame.
I'm sorry, are you looking for a deeper or more meaningful set of conversations in this world?
Well, you point me at them and I'll go work for that person.
Are you looking for more challenge?
Are you looking for more rigor?
Are you looking for more curiosity?
Are you looking for more connection?
Are you looking for more challenge?
Are you kidding me?
This is the language Olympics.
There's no intergalactic Olympics as yet.
Earth is all we got.
And so if people are indifferent to...
And no one's indifferent to depth, right?
Right?
But if people are indifferent to what it is that you have to say or hostile to what it is you have to say, I mean, we have a choice, right?
If I offer a Maserati for five bucks and someone doesn't want it, what am I going to say?
You don't have to buy it.
No, I know.
I know.
But if somebody said, someone offered me a Maserati for five bucks and I said no, what would you say to them?
What would you think of them?
I don't know.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Would you think it was a smart decision?
You said for free?
Bye.
No.
Maserati for five bucks.
Oh.
What a million dollar car for five bucks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it'd be...
A dumb decision to turn it down.
Yeah, you'd say, you're an idiot.
I mean, even if you don't want the car, buy the car for five bucks, sell the car for a quarter mil or whatever the hell they're worth and give the money to charity.
Bob's your uncle, right?
Right?
Could have done some great good with that.
And if you offer depth to people, for a lot of people, well, for some people they'll be like, "Yay, great depth!" You know, "Thirsty man in desert, here's some water, yay, I'm gonna drink." Right?
But for a lot of other people, when you offer them depth, you trigger annihilation panic in them.
This is my belief.
I'm not saying this is empirically proven, but I don't even know how you would.
Cortisol levels?
I don't know.
But when you offer some people depth, Josh, what you do is you remind them that they're probably going to die in their isolated skull prison.
And they're never going to reach out.
And they're never going to connect.
and they're never going to get that sweet, sweet nectar of deep human connection.
Yeah.
You walk out of the jail and people...
You push on the cell door.
It opens and you walk out.
And everyone else who thinks there's locks say, holy shit, that guy just walked out.
Did you see that?
That guy just pulled the goddamn cell door and he just walked out.
Can we do that?
And then some of them realized that, and in fact, most of them realized that the only thing that's keeping them in that prison is the locks in most of them realized that the only thing that's keeping them in that The impossibilities they have only imagined, right?
And then when you get people to understand that their presence are in their belief systems, in their delusions, in their culture, in their fantasies, In their easy allegiance to accidental history, then they have a choice.
And if they choose...
Most people resent anyone who gives them a fork in the road because they like to think that they're just a train track of history.
Don't give me will.
Don't give me choice.
Don't show me a better way.
Don't show me difference.
Don't show me surmounting your circumstances.
Don't show me better...
Don't show me better, dammit!
And when they resent someone who walks out of a prison, what they get is that they're probably going to die in prison.
And there's a panic.
The last vestige of the yearning for freedom and connection rises in them.
And tries to seize and move the hand and push the cell door and walk out and get out and sprint towards the light and leave the dungeon and the underworld and the dankness of history behind.
So when you bring the reality of who you are to people, it is deeply disorienting to other people.
It enrages other people.
Hierarchies are built on a lack of connection.
You know, if we connect with each other, we cannot prey on each other.
I understand intimacy is the antidote to evil.
Because evil is using people as things to serve you.
And intimacy is recognizing our common humanity, which is why the goal in this conversation, my friend, It's always to get people to connect.
This is why I recommend therapy.
This is why I try and talk to people about essential issues.
It's why I try to listen as deeply as I can to what people are saying because the antidote to violence, the antidote to hierarchy, the inoculation against evil is intimacy, is connection, is honesty.
It's why Real-Time Relationships remains one of my most popular books because it's about how to connect and communicate with other human beings.
If we connect, we do not need to conquer.
Do you understand?
If we have intimacy, we cannot stand hierarchy.
Which is why, to me, anarchy fundamentally is honesty.
If we are honest with each other, if we connect with each other, if we are human with each other, if we reveal ourselves to each other, If we break out of the skull prison and join hands through language across the world, there is no fucking hierarchy that will stand the connection of we serfs.
It is the most peaceful and connected revolution the world has ever seen, and it will in fact be the last revolution the world will ever need to see.
So the journey that you are On the journey of connection is the journey to end the Stone Age pyramid of domination run by the manipulative sociopaths that followed us up from the chimpanzee tribes.
You are undoing all of that through connection.
And I want you to understand how In my view, I want you to understand how powerful what it is that you're taking on is.
And the reason I want that for you is to understand that there will be people who will push back significantly against what you're doing.
It sounds like your mother was one of them.
But it is what I would call A holy mission of hand-holding to bring the truth of our experience to others in the world.
It is only through connection that we can conquer the urge to conquer.
And when you find people you can connect with, you literally have tunneled through time to the future.
Thank you.
So you can bring it back to the present.
Does this make any sense at all?
Absolutely.
Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
I think therapy, if you can step it up, it sounds great.
Journaling.
Recording your dreams.
I've mentioned before, John Bradshaw, Nathaniel Brandon have good books in these areas for doing self-work and journaling.
All of that kind of stuff.
You have to speak the language of self before you can connect with others.
And it sounds like the work that you're embarking upon is good.
If you can step up the therapy, that's great.
If not, you can at least start to do more of that journaling work.
And I think that's going to serve you very well and it's going to break this pattern of history that has gone on for Lord knows how long in your gene pool.
Too long.
Too long.
History stops when we tell it to stop.
It's as simple and as complicated as that.
Yeah.
Is there anything else you wanted to add?
No.
No.
I'm This is quite amazing.
Quite an amazing experience for me.
Sounds like you want to add something.
Go on.
I just, I don't know, just, oh, like, the waves of, like, like, heaviness and, like, when the call dropped off, I, like, just let out, like, just giant battle cry and just, it's like, no, this is not going to happen.
I just...
And just like...
And like the anger and then...
Sadness that came after and just the lightness afterwards.
It's just so...
Out of this world experience.
Yeah, it's sad that it is so out of this world.
It's like you've got to go to Mars to connect on Earth.
But you did a great job.
And you got it.
You got all the ingredients you need to connect.
Just got to work to learn the language, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Mike, is there anything you wanted to add?
I just want to thank you for calling in, Josh.
I know how difficult, coming from a place of a very similar place, I know how difficult it is to step outside that comfort zone and try and have these kind of conversations.
So, major kudos to you for pushing through that.
And you broke a significant pattern.
I know in conversations I would – it kind of sounded like if you're driving a car, you're like, I really don't want to hit that guardrail.
I really don't want to hit that guardrail.
I really don't want to hit that guardrail.
And you almost steer into it because you're thinking about it so much.
I would go into conversations – Going like, I hope this conversation goes well.
I really don't want it to go bad.
And I'd steer into it going bad.
And you pushed through that.
You broke a significant cycle.
And this takes a lot of practice.
It takes a lot of practice to strengthen that muscle of communicating with people in this kind of way.
And being honest.
Especially when you went...
It sounds like a long time where you didn't have that chance or that opportunity.
So it's, you do some hard work in therapy, like Steph talked about, journaling and all that kind of stuff.
And you can be, I mean, I was amazed at how quickly stuff started turning around for me.
So there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
I just want to tell you that it does get easier once you put in the work.
So please keep us posted on how you're doing.
And thanks again for calling in.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Alright, and who do we have next?
Alright, up is Ed.
And Ed wrote in and said, I was hit as a child and I feel a very strong emotion when I am witness to a child being hit.
What should I do in general and what should people who care about children's rights do when they see a child being hit in public?
Hmm.
Yeah, I mean, it's a tough call.
It's a tough call.
I think you want to try and be as positive as possible.
Firm, I think, but positive.
And say to the parents that some research you may not be aware of is...
Kind of pointing out that this doesn't generally tend to work, right?
And if the child is older, you can say, you know, I mean, you're still hitting and you've probably been doing it for some time.
It doesn't really work.
And there's lots of better ways that you might want to look into for trying.
You know, it's tough.
I mean, you don't really want to attack and shame the parent because, you know, they may, you know, stuff rolls downhill, right?
They may end up taking it out on the kid.
But I think try and get as much information across as possible.
Positively as possible in the short amount of time, I think can be really helpful.
Does that help at all?
Yes, I have.
I've done that exact thing.
And the response that I always get back is, I raise my kids the way I want to raise my kids, basically.
And, uh, for myself, it's, it's, it's rough because I don't, I don't want to be in that situation.
I don't want to see that happening.
I don't want to hear the cries, you know, like it hurt, like it physically hurts me, uh, to be in that situation, but I don't want to abandon the child.
Uh, cause I've, I've just left situations just so such a way I just walked away without saying anything to anybody.
And, uh, I just don't want to be around people who think it's cool to hit kids.
It's tough because the emotion comes up and you get this fight or flight and you don't know what to do.
I have tried that avenue, but I guess I just don't I don't know any other way.
I got all the statistics in my head, and there's the moral argument.
You won't let someone else hit your kid, but you'll hit them.
That doesn't make any sense.
You bring up these contradictions.
You get them somewhat thinking, but you always get, don't tell me how to raise my kids.
Sometimes they just walk away.
Because, you know...
Totally, yeah.
And, I mean, obviously, you can't do much about that, right?
I mean...
and, uh, you know, I've, I've said once to someone, uh, you know, how would you feel if you saw me hitting my dog like that?
Hmm.
And...
That jolts people, because they'd be like, people have this, you know, weird sentimentality around animals that then completely vanishes when...
They're around kids.
So, I mean, there are specific things you can do, and the specific interventions are, I would imagine, have a low likelihood of success.
Because asking someone to change the whole cycle of abuse, particularly when they have been enmeshed in and have been enacting that abuse, perhaps for years, I mean, that's, you know...
I mean, I don't usually do it because I think there's any chance of changing the parent.
You know, maybe there is.
Maybe it works out.
You know, we can only help.
But I do it so that the child gets that someone said that it was wrong.
That someone, at some point, stood up and said to the parent, this is not the right thing to do.
Yeah, it's pretty wacko when I'm the one out of like, you know, 20 people.
I'm the lone person.
Well, I guess me and my partner are the lone people saying, you know, that's not cool.
And, you know, I might say some shaming type of language.
But everyone is siding with the abuser in this situation.
I can feel the energy.
Well, yeah.
If I call out, for instance, my buddy, he was somewhat of a buddy, I guess, now because I'm a little scared to have my child interact with his children.
He was talking about how his two boys, two and four, they are so rough.
And I said, well, maybe you shouldn't hit them.
And then everyone kind of looks at me like, how dare you say that?
And I just say it like I've been friends with this guy since, you know, we were little kids.
And I can talk to him.
I try to talk to him like, you know, straight to the truth to him.
And yeah, everyone around me, how dare you say that you hit your kids and that's a bad thing?
And maybe that possibly might be the solution to the problem of why your kids are hitting other kids or why your kids are so rough.
It's because you hit them.
How can you expect kids to develop empathy when you're using their pain centers to bully and control them?
If it's people in your life, that's obviously a bit more complicated than some shopping mall or something, right?
If there are people in your life, that is a pretty significant challenge.
Hopefully you just keep giving them the facts.
Mike, can you check this?
Jordan Riek, I think, has nosbank.net, has lots of information.
You can send them some emails.
You can talk to them about their IQ loss.
You can talk to them about the fact that it doesn't work.
The kids are usually recurring within about 10 minutes of being hit.
They're doing exactly the same thing again and all of that.
It doesn't, you know, hopefully just keep hitting them with information and at some point it may make a difference.
Yeah, NoSpank.net is for Project No Spank.
And also, I mean, the most comprehensive book, if you feel there are people that are open to reason and evidence, the absolute most comprehensive book on the dangers and damage that spanking does is, without question, Murray A. Strauss's The Primordial Violence.
It is like the encyclopedia for all things anti-spanking.
And the man's been involved in that field of research for, I believe, three decades.
So it's conclusive.
And if they're open to reason and evidence, pointing that book, putting that in their hands, will probably be very helpful.
And that's...
See, and that's the tough part because people aren't open to reason and evidence because everyone around them is just, we're all comfortable with hitting kids because everyone does it and everyone thinks it's normal and we were all hit and we turned out fine.
So the story goes.
I'm trying to learn this new language of nonviolent communication, NVC, and trying to apply that to even a stranger in the parking lot hitting their kid and going up to them.
But for myself, You feel this strong emotion and you get that fight or flight.
So I'm more than likely just leave the situation or I myself get angry.
And, you know, that's something I need to work on too.
But I still...
It's so tough because I do not want these kids being hit.
You feel so horrible when it happens.
I don't know.
It's tough.
I guess providing information.
But...
The law is the law and the reality is the reality of where we are as a society, particularly in North America.
And...
I think just continual, as positive as you can, disagreement and enthusiasm for better alternatives and giving information and so on.
And the other thing, too, is spread...
You know, our video, Freedom Aid Radio video, The Truth About Spanking, spread other stuff.
And you never know what's going to come in through their back door, so to speak.
So, you know, it's six degrees of separation, right?
If you share important information about spanking, you never know when someone they respect might share it back from you through some sort of weird internet whirlpool vortex kind of thing.
So you don't know.
You just keep pushing the information out, you know?
When you don't know where the earth is, you just throw as many seeds from the airplane as you can and then circle back to get the crops, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I'm definitely a provider of information on Facebook.
It's just too bad that most of the people that I know in real life just block me on Facebook because they don't want to hear this crazy new information, which is sad.
You've got to make a decision at some point or not, that are these people really worth it?
And I noticed that people, they don't really want to interact with us.
My good friends, before I knew anything about anarchy, it was perfectly fine having conversations with them and whatnot, and now we are kind of social pariahs because I keep bringing up uncomfortable topics with people And they don't want to hear it, so they just disassociate, which is horrible.
Because, you know, I'm in a fairly small centre in Canada, and there's not a lot of people around to connect with.
So when you lose some of your good friends you've been with just because you are telling the truth and they refuse to hear it, that's a tough thing to deal with, most definitely.
It is, and I wish I could give you some easier solution.
It is true that to be closer to the truth is to be closer to virtuous people, but more distant from most of the world.
It's that sad equation.
I could be closer to the world if I reject the truth, but then I'd be further away from my loved ones.
And I don't want to be further away from my loved ones.
And I would be further away from my daughter.
Yeah.
And I can't even tell you, without getting emotional, I can't even tell you how incomprehensible it would be to yell at or hit this perfectly charming and wonderful and delightful human being.
I can't tell you just how literally cut my own hand off rather than do it incomprehensible it would be.
And the fact that I'm surrounded by these bald fucking apes smack their kids because their kids displeased them, I literally feel like I fell into a monkey fucking zoo for a good portion of my existence.
Child displeased!
Hit with rock!
I mean, it's truly astounding.
It's like being cast back in time to the opening scenes of 2001 A Space Odyssey.
I don't recognize the species I'm surrounded by in a pretty fundamental way.
And even those more progressive parents who are like, well, we don't hit, we...
We verbally lecture.
We browbeat.
We time out.
We take away their candy.
We do this.
We do that.
We take away their Xbox privileges.
We shut down their cell phone.
It's still all about control.
It's still all about controlling the mad vanity of adults Thinking we have such great answers.
The planet is so clean.
We've ended war.
We don't have huge national debts and significant portions of the population in prisons.
You know, we've just got it all sorted out.
We can't possibly be doing any better.
And therefore, as perfect adults, we have every right to impress our prejudices upon our children like branding the forehead of Zeus himself.
That vanity That narcissism, that grandiosity, is incomprehensible to me.
Yeah, it really feels...
No, go ahead.
Well, it really feels like children are slaves, and they're treated like slaves.
And when the parents are the masters, and you crack the whip, and you do what we say, because we're the masters, and you're not, and we're bigger than you.
It's tough, too, like the time-out situation.
I tell people, I think solitary confinement...
It's torture.
So I don't want to use timeouts as a form of punishment for my child because that is torture.
Confining them when they need you the most is incredibly insane to me.
My boy is only one.
That wouldn't even be an option now.
But even talking to people and they say, I'm not going to hit.
And they're like, well, how will they learn?
How will you discipline them?
No?
No?
I'm not hitting my wife.
Well, how do you discipline her then?
No, no.
That's not the question to ask, right?
That's a really powerful argument with people.
I recently got into a girl at work, she's 20 years old, and I was talking to her about spanking and stuff, and I'm like, so if you're for spanking, you must be for hitting spouses.
And she just kind of looked at me and she gave me a real weird look.
She's like, how do you make that?
How does that make any sense?
Well, you know, you choose.
The wife chooses to be with the abuser.
Children don't.
And she just, it was like a mind screw up in her head.
She's like, huh.
And she didn't say anything.
And I was just like, yeah, well, you know, think about it.
Oh, I'm a broken record evangelizer with this, right?
So, I mean, people are delighted.
I went to the grocery store yesterday and my daughter had created with her ribbons and so on basically an outfit that went over her clothes where she was in like this disco bondage attack of the fashion snakes.
And it was great.
I thought it was very creative.
I thought it was delightful to see.
And, you know, she brought smiles everywhere she went.
And she's dancing to this song in the store.
And, you know, people are like, oh, she's, you know, she's so happy.
And I'm almost like, I'm the same thing.
Yeah, you know, we don't hit, we don't yell, we don't punish.
And look how great she is.
Look how happy she's dancing while being attacked by Madonna snakes.
Everywhere we go.
We went rock climbing a couple of weeks ago and the instructor was like, wow, she's really brave.
She's really fearless.
Her actual name now, she's changed her name.
Her name is Jenna Hero.
And I'm like, yeah, she's fearless.
We don't yell.
We don't punish.
We don't any of that sort of stuff.
We just negotiate.
And people are like, you what?
Or like, oh, yeah.
And I just try and plant those seeds so that they can remember.
There was that great kid who was huge amounts of fun to interact with, who was very chatty, who was very courageous, and very sensible, and was never punished, and was never yelled at, and was never hit.
And so, yeah, I'm just constantly like, I'm not trying to use her as a demonstration, right?
But if people make a comment, I'll just mention it.
And then if they want to know more, I'm happy to tell them.
Your actions speak louder than words.
Most definitely, Seth.
I appreciate you taking my call.
I'll leave the floor open to the next person.
Thank you very much.
Thanks for what you're doing.
I appreciate that, as I think the world and the future will as well.
I don't think we have any particular big announcements.
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We did what?
We broke 2.5 million video views over the last 30 days, if I remember rightly.
2.6 in the last 28 days.
2.6 million video views.
2.6 million in the last 28 days.
That's fantastic.
And I'm going to assume a roughly...
Equivalent number of podcast downloads.
So yeah, we're doing well.
I mean, if we're doing over 5 million a month, that's like, what, 60 million a year?
At 50 cents a podcast, I'm rich!
You know, because remember, I have so much power over my listeners that I can get almost 1-2% of them to donate.
But yeah, thanks everyone so much for making the show possible.
Go share, go share of yourself.
Really focus on the connection and I really believe that's how we flatten out the future.
Have yourself a wonderful, wonderful week.
I guess we'll talk to you Saturday night.
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