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Aug. 4, 2014 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:32:01

2764 The Friend Zone: A Life Sentence - Saturday Call In Show August 2nd, 2014

Is having standards of behavior for children the initiation of force? How can I escape the friend zone? How do you forgive a parent who hasn’t earned forgiveness? Also includes: the value of preparation in parenting, negotiation with children, unschooling or conflict avoidance, asserting needs in relationships, penis holding pattern, bringing inconvenience to bastards and living with authenticity.

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	Hi, everybody.
	Stefan Molyneux from Freedom Aid Radio.
	Saturday night.
	Hope you're doing well.
	Welcome to all of the new Israeli listeners.
	It's just wonderful to have you on board and to our, I guess, Palestinian friends as well.
	The Truth About Israel and Palestine is out.
	I hope that you will Have a look at it, and to the people who feel that saying, for shame, is going to somehow disprove any of the evidence and arguments I've put forward, the only thing I can say is, for shame!
	This is not how it works.
	N, lowercase a, uppercase a, stands for not an argument.
	It would make my life that much easier if the Internet as a whole would adopt N, A-A. Not an argument as a shorthand.
	Mike, how has your experience of the response been?
	I've been very disappointed in the response, Steph.
	Very, very disappointed.
	The reason I say that is my favorite YouTube comment and rebuttal is the maternal, I'm so disappointed in this video.
	Why are you disappointed in this video?
	Well, that's not included.
	But we know disappointment abounds, so.
	Steph, I thought you had some rigorous standards.
	Looks out.
	Looks like I was just very much mistaken.
	I can barely contain my disappointment.
	Wow.
	I can actually picture my mother looking at me scornfully as I read that comment.
	It's quite interesting.
	I guess if I were...
	Officially Jewish and the son of a mom like that, that might work.
	But sadly, the cultural meme does not reach over as far as it goes.
	So anyway, thanks so much for those who are watching it.
	And thank you so much for those who are sharing it.
	And thank you.
	I'm so sorry we did make an error in the video, which was we said 50 cities were targeted.
	We meant to say 50 urban centers were targeted.
	Complete mistake.
	Sorry.
	In hindsight, pretty obvious.
	But...
	In the world of the moment, it did not strike me as particularly egregious.
	But it definitely needs to be corrected.
	So apologies for that.
	And we always try to be as accurate as we can.
	I remember with Nelson Mandela, I had a pretty good source that said he had nationalized some industries or some companies.
	Turns out he didn't.
	Every now and then, there's going to be some mistakes.
	But at least we're not quite as long as the New York Times correction list, which sometimes seems about half the length of the paper.
	So again, if you disagree, if you find what I'm saying to be incorrect or the arguments that before would be incorrect, please, please, please contact us.
	You'll be put to the front of the queue for these conversations and you get to talk to hundreds of thousands of people and millions of people over the years to set the record straight.
	If you have disagreements with me, Just come in.
	I'm a polite and reasonable person to debate with, so please come and do so.
	That would be fantastic, and sorry again for the error.
	So, Mike, who do we have up first?
	All right.
	Up first today is Matt, and we're going to talk a bit about unschooling.
	An eight-year-old daughter who doesn't really want to learn, but yet they feel as if, you know, we have to math, reading, all that kind of stuff.
	And they feel like it's initiating force against her because she doesn't want to do it, yet they think it's important for her to do it, and just kind of how to navigate that whole scenario.
	So go ahead, Matt.
	Hi, everybody.
	Matt, is it past her bedtime?
	I don't imagine we're going to be talking to the young lady this evening, right?
	She's sitting right next to me.
	She's not actually...
	Okay, here's the problem.
	I'm from Montreal, so both my wife and daughter are more or less French, so you won't be having any English conversations with either of them.
	Unless I'm actually ordering my French phrases, I would like a croissant of the gods.
	And that pretty much was how I got the best croissants.
	You can also do bagels with that as well, to continue the Semitic theme.
	So sorry, but okay.
	So what happened with the unschooling stuff?
	When did it start?
	Was she in daycare?
	Was she in school beforehand?
	Yeah, she's never been to school.
	She's never been to daycare.
	She was home birthed.
	She co-sleeps with us.
	She's definitely not unschooled, actually.
	We've been homeschooling her from the start.
	We do at least an hour of reading and math every day.
	But lately, I've gone through these emotions several times where I look at her working with my wife and there's just so much natural internal resistance compared to when she does anything else, especially playing.
	But I've come to realize that we are initiating the use of force against her because like I tell my wife, I say, I don't care if you want to do – because I'm more on schooling.
	She wants to do schooling.
	So I tell my wife, I don't care if you want to sit down, do math or whatever, but she has to also have the option to go and play.
	And you have to make school more interesting than play.
	And until that occurs, you're not striking a balance of non-initiation of force because otherwise you're forcing her to sit down and learn.
	And she clearly doesn't want to.
	And it's actually sad to see.
	And it's part of the reason why I decided to homeschool.
	I had such a terrible experience at school.
	My mother was a schoolteacher.
	So I had the same hierarchical thinking at home that I had in school.
	My mom was actually a teacher in my school.
	So when I got dragged off to the principal's office, I went right by my mom's class, which was kind of weird.
	So now we have a lovely little eight-year-old daughter who doesn't particularly like to learn in the traditional sense, sitting down with books and stuff.
	And my wife and I and my family are a bit at odds because I say, look, let her be.
	And as soon as she wants – as soon as you guys can find a way to make it interesting, she'll learn or she'll learn because she's interested about something else.
	But of course this comes across as being irresponsible to just about everybody around me.
	But I'm really torn because when it comes to the use of force against her, there's no doubt about it that we have to use force.
	Okay, so just because you've used that word about 12 times already, so tell me what you mean by force.
	I mean, clearly you're not putting a gun to her head or a knife to her throat.
	So you may be casting the net a little bit wide when it comes to the question of force here, but what do you mean by force?
	Well, it means we don't give her a choice.
	She's got to do it, and if she doesn't do it, Kind of in the time frame we want and sort of under the conditions that we want, then, you know, I end up making threats.
	Well, you know, maybe we'll put you in school then if you're not happy to do it at home.
	Or, you know, well, then we're not going to the pool.
	We're not doing this.
	We're not doing that.
	And I hate that dynamic.
	I don't like to be like that.
	But hang on.
	Hang on.
	How is...
	Let's just say we don't go to the pool, right?
	Let's just say that, right?
	How is the withdrawal of a positive the same as the imposition of coercion?
	Well, because it's a threat.
	Right.
	Because I'm using it as a threat.
	No, no, no.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Wait, wait, wait, wait.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Because you're using some very loaded language.
	And the more loaded the language, the less clear the thought.
	Right?
	So that's why I'm sort of stopping here.
	And I'm willing to be schooled, right, so to speak.
	But if she doesn't do her reading...
	Do you want to go and have fun with her?
	It's difficult to answer that in a yes or no.
	I have to kind of give a long explanation because sometimes yes, sometimes no.
	Sometimes it depends how her work goes.
	I'd say yes, obviously, we like to have fun with her and do stuff with her, but at a certain point, we feel like we have these responsibilities of teaching her some certain basics at her age, and that we feel responsible for that, so we have to make that happen, regardless of whether we're not going to have it.
	So, she's eight years old, right?
	So, does she understand why reading and math is important?
	Est-ce que tu comprends pourquoi c'est important, le math et la lecture, tout ça?
	Est-ce que tu comprends?
	I would say that no, she doesn't understand.
	I actually, I don't know what the word for it is in English, but I... I think I give her too much credit for understanding things and I speak to her like an adult a lot of the times and I realize later that she didn't understand really what I meant by certain words and things.
	So I would generally say, if you mean like the repercussions that may or may not happen later, of course she's not aware of those.
	And I find those difficult to argue as well because no one knows the future.
	So it's hard to say that, you know, she may be turned out to be very successful in something that doesn't really require an advanced knowledge of reading.
	Wait, wait, wait, wait.
	Okay, okay.
	Hang on, hang on.
	An advanced knowledge of reading?
	What does that mean?
	Well, I mean, my argument is do 10 minutes a day with her for the next seven years.
	That'll be 420 hours.
	And she will learn arithmetic and reading and writing in that amount of time more or less to a level that she can decide on her own to deepen later if she so chooses to produce a somewhat academic career.
	Otherwise, all she needs are the basic tools.
	In life of reading and basic math, be able to run a business and basically do what I do, which is I'm a photographer and videographer and I run a business and I write well.
	I work hard at writing well and I – but I don't need any advanced education for that.
	So that's not naturally – she's not naturally academically inclined.
	I don't want to push her in that direction.
	I really want it to come from her.
	And that's my question.
	Like, doesn't learning have to come from inside somewhere?
	You have to have an intrinsic desire to learn what it is you're doing.
	And if you don't, and someone forces you to learn, like I tell my wife all the time, well, I'll teach you how to do photography right now.
	Two hours a day, seven days a week, I'm going to sit you down, and I'm going to sit you down and make you become a photographer.
	Would you accept that?
	Of course she wouldn't, right?
	So how can we say to a child...
	A brilliant child, a child who loves to play and who directs her own self-knowledge and self-discovery in her own unique way.
	How can we force our academic agenda on it?
	We don't even believe in it.
	Anyways, I don't.
	To begin with...
	Have I lost you?
	I'm not sure when you're done.
	I'm just waiting for you to finish your thoughts.
	That's it.
	All right.
	an enormous amount of information that I can't possibly address in a rebuttal.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Which is that I've asked you for some clarifications and definitions and you've gone off on these wild tangents with huge amounts of information and definitions.
	And you've also repeated the word force even though we're trying to figure out whether the word force is even appropriate in this situation.
	Which means that you're not in a listening space.
	And that doesn't mean agreeing with me space.
	It just means that this is causing a lot of anxiety for you, right?
	Yeah, well, I'm a little bit nervous, maybe.
	Also, I'm not used to talking to my computer this way, which might make me a bit more nervous, but yeah.
	You're not talking to your computer.
	It's like saying, I hope the phone comes on a date with me when I ask someone that, right?
	I can try and answer your question.
	So listen, look, look, I mean, if you're in control of this conversation, we're not going to get anywhere because you're just going to keep spraying out more and more issues and comments and tangents, and I won't be able to deal with anything in particular.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so I'm sort of trying to figure out what your use of the word force is here.
	And when you listen back to this, you'll be quite surprised at how many tangents you went on, right?
	So my question is, how is the withdrawal of a positive the same as forcing someone?
	So when I do a video that people don't like, or I do a show that people don't like, people cancel their subscriptions in protest, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Are they forcing me to change my topics?
	Well, if they threaten you beforehand, that would be an attempt to use force against you in some way.
	How are they using...
	You can't use the same word for someone who holds a knife to my throat and someone who decides to stop donating to my show, right?
	You can't use that word.
	Well, can I use the word threat?
	Does the word threat and force, are they not...
	They seem closely related to me.
	Well, okay, but can you agree at least that we can drop the word force?
	Sure.
	So if you say to your daughter, if you don't do your reading, I don't want to take you to swimming, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So those are consequences, right?
	But I don't think that they're a force.
	Consequences is different from a threat.
	A threat is, like technically, a threat is, I'm going to do something you're really not going to like if you don't do something that I want, right?
	As opposed to, I'm not going to give you a huge bonus, like going to the pool, if you don't do something that we have agreed is important, right?
	Sure, well, we haven't agreed on that, but okay.
	Well, but see, that's the problem.
	That's the fundamental problem is that your daughter has not, you've not elicited agreement.
	Once you have agreement, then you are not enforcing something when you ask someone to live up to their agreement, right?
	Like if I go and buy a car, they're not stealing from me if they expect me to do the monthly payments, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Right?
	Does that make sense?
	Absolutely, yeah.
	So, the first issue is it's not force, and to not provide a positive is not the same as a threat, right?
	There are consequences, right?
	So, the other day I'm playing pick-up sticks with my wife and daughter, and my daughter is cheating, right?
	Because she's five, and she's testing all the boundaries of behavior, right?
	And so...
	The pickup sticks wobble and she just wants to hang on to the pickup stick because she's, you know, very competitive.
	She likes to win.
	Massive mystery as to where she gets that from.
	I'll leave everyone to ponder that during recess.
	And so the consequence was, after we had talked about it a couple of times, my wife said, I'm not going to play with you if you're going to cheat.
	But the whole fun is you can't move the sticks.
	If you do move the sticks, you have to put it back.
	So I'm not going to play with you if you don't cheat.
	Like, if you cheat.
	Is that a threat?
	Well, I'm tempted to say, yeah, Although...
	It's not a threat.
	No, it's not a threat.
	She's expressing an honest desire to not play with my daughter if my daughter cheats.
	It's not fun.
	It's conflict-ridden.
	I mean, why would you want to, right?
	It's like, do you want to play chess with someone who treats their pawns as queens?
	Of course not, right?
	It's honest.
	Look, I don't want to play with you if you're going to cheat.
	That is an honest statement.
	Is it a threat?
	No, it's a statement of, I don't want to.
	Yeah, okay, I got that.
	Does that make sense to you?
	It does.
	The problem seems multidimensional, though, so I mean...
	No, no, no, no, no, no, don't give me your multidimensional.
	I know you're from Montreal.
	Please don't give me your multidimensional stuff, right?
	So we've just recognized that consequences is not force, and the withdrawal of a positive consequence Offer is not the same as a threat.
	A threat is, read or you don't get dinner tonight.
	That's the imposition of a negative, not the withdrawal of a positive, right?
	Like, if I don't go to work at a job, they don't get to throw me in jail, right?
	But they're not going to pay me, right?
	They're withdrawing a positive, they're not imposing a negative, right?
	Sure, but at the root of it, we're imposing a negative by forcing her to do something that doesn't interest her at all.
	Oh my god!
	Do you have an input, my friend?
	Did we not just talk about the word force?
	I completely get the force thing.
	I mean, I make this argument all the time.
	Then stop using the word!
	We just agreed it's the wrong word!
	Oh, sorry, I didn't realize I'd use the word again.
	I know, I know, but this is important, right?
	What it means is that you're having trouble living in the moment with this issue, which means that you're dealing with your childhood crap, not dealing with your daughter, right?
	Because you were forced as a child legitimately and probably terribly, right?
	Yeah, I'm still quite mad at my parents and the entire education system for having wasted time.
	Immeasurable amounts of my life.
	Right.
	And you were threatened in school and you were threatened...
	You weren't spanked.
	I'm just looking at your ACE, so you weren't spanked or anything like that.
	But there was threats.
	All government schools, of course, run on threats, right?
	I mean, fundamentally, they exist because your parents go to jail if they don't pay for them, right?
	Yeah, no, this has been a huge issue my entire life.
	But I... I've fought against my parents and the system forever.
	There's never been a moment where I went along.
	I was always an independent thinker, which caused me a lot of problems.
	But as an adult, I guess with my daughter, I'm having to face some of those issues more squarely now that I feel like I'm having to coerce her And to following some parts of the system.
	Well, okay.
	So you just replaced the word force with coerce, but you did say feeling like, but that's not really a feeling.
	That's a judgment, right?
	Look, you don't want to be...
	Sorry, people are just in the chat room saying that not giving her dinner is not the imposition of a negative.
	It certainly is, because hunger is painful, right?
	So it is the imposition of a negative.
	It's not just a withdrawal of a positive, right?
	And so you don't want to be the pendulum guy, right?
	So if you had aggressive rules imposed upon you as a child, the solution to that is not to swing to the other extreme and say any imposition of standards is bullying.
	Right.
	Yeah, I don't think that that opposite extreme either.
	I'm You don't want to go from, you know, the daughter of the preacher who then becomes the town whore because she wants to explore her own sexuality and her own capacity to withstand biomedical warfare ejected from the average penis around her, right?
	Exactly.
	So we don't want to be, you know, pendulum people, right?
	You know, like those kids when I was in college...
	Who'd grown up and real strict parents and then they got away from home and it's like, I can drink!
	You know, and they basically just then proceeded to destroy all the higher faculties that got them into higher faculties to begin with, right?
	So you don't want to feel like if you're imposing something on her that it's the same as what was imposed on you, right?
	Sure.
	It's not the same situation.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Well, I just – because I think I phrased it better when I was speaking with Mike originally, but my question is about the limits of initiation of force.
	And I wonder, like, this issue comes up when it comes to sleeping with – Oh, no.
	I've got to interrupt you.
	Oh, my God.
	I'm sorry.
	First of all, you use the word force again.
	The limits of the initiation of force, we've already agreed that it's not the initiation of force.
	So you're back onto your broken record again, right?
	Which means you're back on your own childhood and you're not talking about your daughter, right?
	This is not a theoretical question about the limits of the initiation of force, right?
	Well, I had a long conversation with my wife about it today, and that's kind of what we came up with.
	No, it is not a philosophical issue.
	It is a psychological issue, in my humble opinion, which is that you feel like you're being a jerk when you impose standards on your daughter because everyone imposed unjust and wrong and brutal standards on you as a kid, right?
	But you're calling them standards, and that's...
	I'm calling, I don't know, I'd call them, you know, my opinion, I mean, on stuff, you know, like I say that learning to read or math is, I value that more than you going and playing.
	So I'm not just, I'm imposing my standards, but what does standards mean, I guess?
	What do standards mean?
	Are you really going to go that abstract on this very personal issue?
	Well, I guess, can my standards be arbitrary?
	I mean, does my standard that she needs to learn something right now when she clearly doesn't want to, does that trump what she wants to do with her body and her time?
	I can impose my standards.
	Well, look, I mean, the reason that I know that we're dealing with a psychological issue is you're putting on these ridiculous absolutes about it.
	You're not saying from the moment you wake up until the moment you go to bed, except for 20 minutes in the exercise yard and chow with your cellmates, you have to be studying vector calculus and algebra and ancient Aramaic, right?
	You're saying a little bit of your time, right?
	So your daughter, what, she goes to bed at like 9 o'clock and gets up at like 8 o'clock kind of thing, so...
	I don't know, whatever.
	She's asleep for 10 or 11 hours a night.
	And so you're basically saying for 13 or 14 hours, you can do stuff that you like for most of that, right?
	And then for maybe 1% of that time, it's important to do something to prepare you for adulthood in a way that you can't quite grasp as yet, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	That's what you do now.
	So you're saying, well, I'm going to pose my will on her.
	But most of the time, you're facilitating what she wants to do, right?
	Well, that's what we do now, exactly what you just described.
	But the problem becomes when it comes to sitting down for that hour doing schoolwork, she has an amazing ability of not getting anything done and wasting our time.
	I know.
	Look, I understand all of that.
	I understand all of that.
	My daughter doesn't like her reading.
	She likes numbers.
	She does not like her reading.
	Right?
	So let me ask you a couple of questions, all right?
	And I just need short answers to this if you don't mind.
	Okay.
	So, first of all, have you been right about stuff that your daughter has understood only later?
	Right?
	So, for instance, with my daughter, we got her to brush her teeth and then later we went to the dentist and she's never had a cavity, right?
	And so I point out and I say, look, do you remember now we go to the dentist and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and there's some other kid you know who's got lots of cavities and is going to have to have mess and injections, right?
	So do you get that I told you something ahead of time that turned out to be right that you didn't agree with at the time, right?
	Have you had examples with your daughter where you say, like I say to my daughter, Do you remember back when you didn't want to brush your teeth?
	And I sort of explained to you why we needed to brush your teeth.
	You still didn't want to do it, but we ended up doing it.
	And now you go to the dentist, you've never had a cavity, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Right, so I've got, and I've probably got like a dozen examples in my back pocket of stuff that she didn't want to do at the time, but I turned out to be right about later.
	Do you have anything like that you can talk about with your daughter?
	I mean, not right now, but in general?
	Yeah, of course.
	The teeth was a big one, obviously.
	I think all parents have to go through that.
	But she still doesn't get it.
	We've talked with her for years about the teeth.
	Oh my goodness, we're still pulling our hair out sometimes about it.
	She just doesn't feel it.
	Does she not get why the teeth thing is important?
	Does she not understand?
	Yeah, she does understand.
	So why is that still an issue?
	Has she agreed to do it?
	No, she brushes her teeth.
	It's just grudgingly, and it just doesn't, you know, it's like we have to remind her every single time.
	And does she resist then?
	Well, obviously a lot less than she used to, but there's still a considerable amount of resistance, yeah.
	Okay, and so what that means is that she's not internalized the requirements, right?
	The whole point to me of parenthood is to get children to internalize just and rational standards of behavior.
	Everything from ethics to aesthetics to politeness to conscientiousness to empathy.
	You want them to, obviously, you want them to internalize that, right?
	Yeah.
	Do you mind if I just give you another example?
	She co-sleeps with us, and she has as long as she's been born.
	At this point, it causes us some problems, and we'd like to make some changes to that, but I'm faced with the same thing as I am with her school, that she really doesn't want to sleep alone.
	It kind of breaks my heart because it appears to be something that's very difficult for her She doesn't want to be alone.
	She doesn't want to be in a dark room by herself.
	And she doesn't understand that mommy and daddy need time together.
	So she keeps sleeping with us, which is mildly disrupting to our relationship, although our relationship is very strong.
	Mildly disrupting?
	What are you, having sex down by the boiler?
	I mean, what do you mean, mildly disrupting?
	Isn't it enormously disrupting?
	Several times a week, enormously disrupting?
	Yeah, it's disruptive, but we feel like it's a price that's worth paying, or at least up until now, we've thought that very strongly.
	Are you saying to me that you've not had sex in your marital bed at night time for eight years?
	No, we have.
	She sleeps in a bed next to our bed.
	What, so you're sneaking it in?
	Well, in the last year, we probably haven't had very much sex.
	Up until that point, we had sex whenever, you know, if she was at a friend's house or she would fall asleep or we would wake up earlier, go into another room in the morning.
	Oh, yeah.
	It really doesn't sound like you guys are in charge of the household.
	And that's going to create a lot of anxiety.
	Kids need to know that the adults know what they're doing.
	And if you guys are basically having an affair on your daughter because she's in your sex chamber, I mean, that doesn't seem to me like...
	Don't you want to be a little bit more at the wheel here?
	Well, we feel like we are.
	We've just done everything we can to make sure that she's...
	No, no, no, no.
	No, listen.
	All you're talking to me is about the ways in which your daughter doesn't want to do the things that you want her to do.
	And that you're giving up on spontaneous and frankly loud sex on your schedule.
	You're the parents!
	You pay for the house!
	What are you waiting until she goes to a friend's place to have sex?
	Come on!
	You're the ones who are paying the bills!
	This brings me back to the original problem then.
	She doesn't want to sleep in her room.
	She's actually scared of it.
	So how can I force her to go into her own room?
	And sleep a night alone, something that pretty much terrifies her.
	And it terrifies all children, I believe.
	I don't know about that.
	I can't get her to do that without...
	Sorry?
	I don't know that it terrifies all children.
	I mean, it's something that children have to get used to, right?
	But aren't you creating someone now who can't navigate change?
	Absolutely not.
	I think you're jumping to conclusions, actually.
	So based on very little information that I've given you, obviously it's hard to give you more information, but no, we don't have any- Wait, wait, wait.
	Hang on a second.
	Hang on a second here, right?
	So she's still resisting probably six years after starting to brush her up.
	Seven years after, eight years after brushing her teeth, she's still resisting it.
	She's resisting doing reading.
	She's resisting.
	Hang on, let me finish.
	Let me finish.
	She's resisting doing math.
	She's resisting moving out of you guys' room and being in her own room.
	And you're saying in absolutely no way, shape or form are you encouraging any incapacity on her part to handle change.
	Well, my theory has always been to teach complete dependence before you can allow for complete independence.
	So we've just really been there for her.
	She breastfed actually until she was six and a half.
	We wanted her to decide when to stop breastfeeding and she decided at just over six.
	And I guess that's been our philosophy.
	We don't have a chaotic situation at all with her daughter, though.
	We have a really great relationship with her.
	We're friends.
	We never fight.
	We have good communication.
	Oh, my God.
	Will you stop?
	You're just unrolling this propaganda.
	You never fight?
	What are we talking about?
	If you've never fought, I'll move on to the next caller.
	Well, we never fight because I try and teach her how to discuss things.
	So when an issue comes up, instead of fighting, we...
	Because you have no conflicts with her.
	Well, the problem is that if I want her to sleep in her own room at this point, I'm going to have to initiate force against her and force her to go into her own room.
	If I want her to school at this point...
	Oh my God.
	Okay, listen, I'm going to give you one more chance just for the sake of your daughter.
	Do you know what you just did that was incredibly annoying?
	No, go ahead and tell me.
	I'm going to have to force her!
	Right?
	Well, that's the way I see it.
	Okay, but then if you're just going to have a conversation with yourself, I don't need to be part of it.
	My time is valuable.
	My listeners' time is valuable.
	We've got lots of people.
	We're booked up until October, people who want to chat about philosophy.
	So if you're going to have a conversation where what I say doesn't matter because you have your own feelings, then why are we pretending to have a conversation?
	Because you can just go back to, well, I may have agreed that it wasn't forced, but I'm just going to say it is because that's how I feel.
	Right?
	If what I say doesn't make any difference to you, I have people who want to listen.
	I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just trying to be frank and efficient with everyone's time in the long run.
	If you make an agreement that is not forced and then you go back to using coercion and force as if we never talked, then you don't have the capacity At least in this conversation, to stand by what you just agreed to.
	And now you're wondering why your daughter is not sticking by her agreements or why she doesn't even understand the agreements.
	It's how you're modeling the behavior.
	You're modeling it with me.
	Do you understand?
	You agreed it's not coercion, then you can jump right back into using the word coercion over and over and over again.
	It's not force, but I don't want to force her.
	Well, no, we agreed it wasn't force.
	That's true, but I don't want to force her, right?
	If you can't stick to your own standards of rational interactions, behavior, listening, and accepting things that you've already agreed to, how on earth are you going to expect your daughter to do it?
	So what you're saying then, if I understand you correctly, is that I have to just come to an agreement with my daughter about her sleeping in her own room?
	No, you need to work on your own capacity to stick to your own agreements, right?
	Because you and I, in this conversation, have made a couple of agreements about the definition of terms, and then you blow right back to the original use of them with no acknowledgement, which means you're kind of in a broken record, and you're not listening to me.
	It's because I don't get it.
	But I guess it's just because I don't get it.
	I don't get how, I don't get it.
	I want to elaborate.
	Yes, but that's not reasonable.
	Because you told me you did get it.
	And then when I confront you on not sticking to your side of the arrangement, you say, okay, well, I didn't get it.
	That doesn't solve the problem.
	Because if you told me you got it, and then you act as if you didn't, and then I confront you on it, and you say, well, I guess I don't get it, right?
	If you do this in your family, and I guarantee that you do, then this is one of the reasons why your daughter is having trouble sticking to things.
	Mm-hmm.
	Because you get kind of weasley in this stuff, right?
	I agree it's not force.
	Well, I'm going to keep using the word force.
	Well, you can't do that.
	Well, I guess I just don't get it then.
	That's totally weasley, right?
	I'm not saying you're a total weasel in every part of your life.
	But in this conversation, it's really weasley.
	And you know you can't just use feelings to substitute something you've already agreed to.
	I agree to pay for this car.
	Here's the car.
	It's going to cost you $5,000.
	And you drive off in the car and you say, well, I didn't really feel like I'd agreed to it.
	So I'm not paying.
	And it's because, I mean, I'll tell you why I think this is the case.
	I more than think, but I have to put those caveats in, right?
	Right, so, and I mean this with friendliness and affection.
	The reason why you don't like being pinned down, you already have told me.
	And by pinned down, I just mean that you agree, when you're sticking to your own agreements, right?
	The reason you don't like being pinned down, my friend, is because when you were a kid, the rules were crappy, right?
	And you had to fight them like crazy.
	And you had to develop these weasel tactics, these fog tactics, this overshare tactics, this tangent tactics, all of these dodge and bob and weave and zig and zag tactics to avoid getting, because any time you got a concrete definition or any time you made an agreement, it would be used to control you.
	And so I'm stepping into, in your mind, the role of the parent or the school teacher mom, the school authorities, I don't know, priests or something, which is where if you agree with me, you have lost your autonomy, you have lost your authority, and now you're under my control.
	And you resist and fight that, right?
	Because you hate it.
	Because it was used, I think, in a destructive way in the past, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yeah, that pretty much characterizes, I guess, what I'm doing.
	Okay, so, Matt, you know I'm not trying to control you, right?
	And I'm not trying to make you do something.
	You experience standards as force.
	Because you're dealing with me like I'm trying to corner you or sell you some swampland in Florida or the Brooklyn Bridge or some meat that's gone off and I've got you cornered.
	I feel like I'm doing a scene out of Glengarry Glen Ross here.
	I'm not trying to control you.
	Yeah.
	But you're treating me like I'm trying to put something over on you or I'm trying to control you or corner you or manage you in some right way.
	Because if you say, I don't want to impose force on my child, well, who's going to disagree with that?
	It's all about the definitions, right?
	And you can't hold your child to reasonable standards that they understand and have agreed to if you can't hold yourself to reasonable standards that you understand and have agreed to, right?
	Which is why you're modeling...
	That behavior in this call, right?
	So my suggestion is with the teeth thing, then one of the ways I explain it to my daughter is, here's how much, look, let's go look it up online.
	Here's how much it costs to get a cavity filled.
	It's 150 bucks.
	Do you have 150 bucks?
	Of course you don't.
	You're fine.
	You don't have 150 bucks, right?
	So who's going to be paying that 150 bucks, right?
	I'm going to be paying the $150.
	Now, if I pay the $150, that's $150 less that we can use to have fun.
	Right?
	I mean, do you like doing X? Well, that costs Y. Do you like doing A? Well, that costs B. There's four of those that go into the teeth, right?
	Or ten of those that go into the teeth, right?
	And so, I've got to pay that money.
	Now, Then we, you know, we drew the picture of the tooth, and we drew the picture of the bugs that eat the food, and then they eat the enamel, and then they get into the nerve, and they eat the nerve, and it's painful, and then you've got to maybe do an emergency thing, and blah, blah, blah, right?
	So she understands the whole deal.
	The whole thing.
	Top to front, we looked at videos on the internet, and here's what happens, and here's what ugly teeth look like.
	We do the whole, like, you invest that time, right?
	And then you take her to the dentist, right?
	And you say, Doctor so-and-so, would you like to explain?
	And then the doctor says, well, what I said, right?
	And then she understands.
	And then I say, you don't have the $150.
	The doctor and I and you now understand.
	Here's why we need to brush your teeth.
	And you empathize, which says, do you know what?
	Nobody likes to brush your teeth.
	I wake up in the morning, I brush my teeth.
	Do I want to brush my teeth?
	Of course I don't want to brush my teeth.
	I wish that there were just little self-cleaning miniature Zambonis in there to clean it all up, polish it up, and take away whatever coffee I've had.
	Actually, it's mostly an IV drip now.
	But, you know, you empathize.
	It sucks.
	Learning to read sucks.
	It does.
	Because for every rule, there's just weird exceptions.
	Learning how to play the piano sucks.
	How many people who sit down to play the piano say, I loved it from the first moment I tried it?
	No!
	You make some stupid noises on the piano, and my daughter makes random things on the xylophone and says, what do you think?
	I said, that's really not very nice at all.
	In fact, I'm honest, right?
	That was wonderful.
	When she was two, sure, it was great that she could hit it.
	But now it's like, that's just random notes.
	I said, let me sing you a song.
	Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.
	What do you think?
	And she's like, oh, that's not really very pretty.
	I'm like, but that's what you just did.
	Right?
	So, no, it doesn't sound very nice at all.
	Let's go to the radio.
	So bass beat.
	That's just not – that's like – that's the sound that axe murderers hear before they cleave other people's head off in a desperate attempt to make that sound stop.
	Make it stop, right?
	That's something where Trotsky, if he hears that song, he welcomes Stalin's ice pick in his ear in Mexico.
	Oh, thank you.
	Thank you.
	Right, so...
	Nobody likes to learn to play the piano.
	I played a violin for 10 years.
	And after about 3 years, I started to enjoy it, right?
	And...
	So if you're...
	Daughter, like if you give her all the facts, you give her the financial realities, and you remind her that she is, in fact, a child.
	You know, I mean, yes, I treat my child as a respectful human being.
	I don't talk to her like an adult because she's not an adult, any more than I would have talked to an adult like they're a five-year-old, unless they had extensive brain damage, right?
	So she is rather short to be having a martini with.
	So no, I speak to her respectfully, but I don't speak to her as an adult, right?
	And the reason being that she's not in fact an adult.
	I mean, if she was an adult, then I'd be like a terrible socialist, right?
	Because I'm paying all the bills, right?
	So how do you get your daughter to do something she absolutely doesn't want to do?
	Well, the fact that she absolutely doesn't want to do it in the moment, Matt, is evidence of my lack of preparing her for that.
	Right?
	You don't wait for the moment.
	That's like saying, well, in five years, I have a concert at Carnegie Hall.
	Let me just not do anything about it.
	And then you phone up your music teacher and say, Mrs.
	Benchmark, I have a concert tomorrow at Carnegie Hall and I haven't practiced.
	What do I do?
	Right?
	And she's like, I don't know.
	I suggest lip syncing or whatever, right?
	But see, the problem I have with this is that all of the learning and the success that I've had out of my life have come from nothing to do with school or any quote-unquote learning.
	It's come from my own self-directed desire to learn, for example, about photography.
	I've had businesses my entire life.
	I've never been employed.
	And I have that motivation that's eternal.
	But Matt, Matt, hang on.
	There's a groundwork that you need, right?
	Like, when I first saw Star Raiders on an Atari 400, I thought it was the coolest thing ever, and I'm like, that's a computer?
	And I would spend Saturdays in the computer lab programming word processors and missile command using ASCII text and Space Galaxy Explorer games on a PET with 2K RAM. But I still had to know how to read in order to be able to program, right?
	I had to read instruction manuals.
	I had to know what the word go-to meant or go-sub or return or all that stuff, right?
	Yeah, but what if you didn't know how to read and then you got interested in computers and then you found within yourself the internal motivation to figure it out at that point when you actually had a reason for yourself to do it?
	No, it would have been too late.
	It would have been too late.
	There's a window where you physiologically are ready to learn how to read.
	And for some kids, it's like four or five, six or seven.
	But for other kids, but, you know, eight, nine, ten, too late!
	It means it's going to be a constant struggle.
	Like, if you grew up in a Japanese household, you'd be able to speak Japanese, right?
	But if you want to learn Japanese as an adult, that's really tough.
	And what happens is when you teach your kids how to read and stuff, they'll learn it and then they'll forget how difficult it was.
	And they'll just be reading and happily reading it.
	Will they thank you about it?
	Of course not.
	Probably not, right?
	So she'd just learn how to read.
	And now if I'd sat there and said, okay, I'd really like...
	To program a computer, but I don't know what my letters are.
	And I know that's not where your daughter is, but it would be like, oh, God.
	That's just raised the stakes of doing that kind of work crazily high, right?
	It'd be like, if there was some really cool computer in Japan, would you learn Japanese to program it?
	Probably not, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	No.
	So, if you've got...
	The credibility is efficiency.
	I've made this case years ago in the show.
	Credibility is efficiency.
	When you're right and your daughter was wrong, you need to rub her face in it.
	You need to remind her of that so that you gain authority.
	Authority is simply people's respect for what you have to say.
	And children, because they live in this blur of the now, don't remember all of that stuff.
	All the ways in which you were right and they were wrong and they ended up admitting that you were right.
	And I remind my daughter of this.
	I also remind my daughter when she was right and I was wrong.
	So that she of course knows not to value my authority as just absolute no matter what.
	And she's great.
	She's unafraid of authority.
	She just lost her first tooth.
	And people are like, oh, is the tooth fairy coming?
	And she's like, seriously?
	What makes you think there's a tooth fairy, right?
	I mean, she just asks, right?
	Some big giant adults, right?
	So if you want your daughter, obviously the brushing teeth, she's just got to understand it.
	She also has to understand that you are the adult and you can see over the horizon in a way that she can't, right?
	I say to my daughter, can you reach the top shelf?
	No.
	Look, I reached the top shelf.
	That doesn't mean I'm right about everything, but it means that I have a lot more experience about things.
	And if I can make a good case, it's reasonable for you to listen, particularly if I've made a good case and been right many times before, right?
	Do you remember that time when you said you wanted to do X, I didn't think it was a good idea, you did X and it didn't work out in various ways, right?
	Well, yeah, so you just remind them.
	And then you say, well, this is one of those times, right?
	And I say, I think I've earned the credibility.
	I think I've earned that you believe me.
	It doesn't mean you have to do everything I say.
	Of course not.
	But I think that you've earned.
	Now, with reading, tell my daughter.
	I empathize.
	It sucks.
	Yes, you'd rather be out there playing in the sunshine.
	And we do that for 95% of the day, right?
	But you do need to have to learn how to read.
	You need to know how to read.
	And I'm telling you, I know it's not fun now, but it's going to be a lot less fun later on.
	You know, and what are we doing?
	15 minutes a day.
	It's not some huge imposition, right?
	It's like chores.
	Of course she doesn't want to do chores.
	I get that.
	Guess what?
	Nobody wants to do chores.
	Of course you don't.
	But life is chores.
	A lot of life is chores.
	You brush your teeth.
	I mean, my wife told me after we met, she's like, listen, hoof boy, you know, you can do things so you don't make clacking sounds on linoleum like some pegasus.
	Apparently there are these files you can get where you sand down your hooves, the tough skin on you.
	I didn't know any of that stuff, right?
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, you just, you, there's a lot of stupid shit you have to do.
	Oh, I get to floss.
	Yay!
	My daughter doesn't do chores, right?
	My daughter doesn't do anything like that.
	She doesn't do chores or anything.
	We don't have that expectation of her at all.
	Well, that's great because I'm sure the world won't have any expectation ever that she has to do anything that she doesn't want to do in the moment.
	I'm sure that personal hygiene, like I still have my wisdom teeth, right?
	So let me tell you what brushing my teeth is like.
	So I floss, I brush my teeth with an electric toothbrush, and then I use a water flosser.
	And then I use a mouth rinse.
	Right?
	And then I got to put this middle-aged drool-bot night guard in because I grind my teeth.
	Because of people like you, Matt.
	No, I'm kidding.
	It's nothing to do with you.
	But that's, you know, that's life.
	And I don't have to do any of that shit.
	And then I can go get my teeth pulled.
	Because they're wisdom teeth.
	They're back there.
	It's like sandblasting an abandoned gold mine getting crap out of in there.
	But you got to, right?
	I mean, because what are your choices, right?
	Oh, it's so much fun to go and exercise in your own house, in your own sweat, when there's something fun on TV. It's no fun.
	Also, it wasn't any fun going to chemo.
	Not to pull the C card, but it wasn't any fun doing that shit.
	A lot of vomiting.
	Actually, it was good for my abs.
	But...
	There's lots of things that you don't want to do.
	And there's no magic.
	People get annoyed when I tell them this.
	I don't know, maybe because they're young and still in the amniotic sack of higher education.
	But no, you have to do things you don't want to do.
	How are you preparing your child for an adult life where she has to pay taxes?
	Well, I totally understand your point, but I don't do almost anything that I don't have to do because I control my life.
	I do do things I don't want to do sometimes, but I do them anyways, and that's my decision.
	It comes because I want to be successful at what I'm doing.
	It's not because the government tells me or somebody tells me to do something.
	I have this internal motivation to be very good at what I do.
	What?
	Are you saying you pay taxes because you want to be good at what you do?
	Well, when it comes to taxes, I've incorporated my company.
	My company pays taxes, and I pay myself at the limit.
	I have two dependents.
	I don't pay any personal income taxes, actually.
	And that's my way of...
	You do your taxes, right?
	Unfortunately, yeah.
	My accountant doesn't.
	Okay.
	Do you enjoy doing your taxes?
	No, and every time I see my accountant, I give him shit, and I call him a tax on me, but...
	No, I don't enjoy it, but...
	Which is not particularly true.
	He's not the one with the gun.
	Do you go to the dentist?
	Not very often, no.
	But you do?
	Yeah, I do.
	Okay.
	It's not quite enough, but all right.
	Have you ever gone to the optometrist and they put those eye drops in that make you feel like you're about 40 feet underwater?
	Yeah, I see your point.
	Is that fun?
	How much fun is groceries?
	Right?
	Do you like cleaning the toilet?
	How about the bathroom as a whole?
	How about sweeping the floors?
	How about shoveling the driveway if you live in a house?
	How much fun is that stuff?
	I mean, it's not hell.
	You can put some music on and boogie and do your thing or whatever, right?
	But there's huge amounts of life that are not fun.
	And we're lucky because we have the most fun of any life forms in history.
	We have the greatest proportion of fun from any life forms throughout history.
	But there's shit that you've got to do that is not fun.
	And one of those things that you have to do, Matt, is that you have to give your daughter some reasonable standards.
	Because I'm telling you, you've got about three years until she hits puberty.
	Only two if you're feeding her lots of beef, right?
	And when she hits puberty, it's pretty much going to be too late.
	You need to get her to respect your authority, which means you have to earn that respect by being right and reminding her that you were right and reminding her that you pay the bills.
	She is not an adult.
	If she was an adult, her name would be on the lease to the house or the mortgage to the house.
	If she was an adult, she'd be driving herself places.
	If she was an adult, she'd be paying her own dental bills, right?
	If she was an adult, she'd have her own account.
	She is not an adult.
	You are the adult, which means you have stuff to teach her that is really important, some of which she will not recognize the value of until later, right?
	Completely agree, yeah.
	And if you avoid that, then you're teaching her that life is about avoiding difficult things.
	How successful is she going to be if life is about avoiding difficult things?
	You know, I just did this video on Israel and Palestine.
	I got these messages.
	I mean, I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh.
	It's such a tragic situation.
	And I don't mean to make it about me, but just sort of point something out.
	I get all these messages like, oh yeah, Steph, he's just trying to be popular.
	And I'm like, oh yeah, because there's nothing that spells popularity like talking about Middle East conflict that's been going on for hundreds of years.
	Oh yeah, that's just Mr.
	Popularity contest, isn't it?
	Anyway.
	But no, it's an important thing to talk about.
	And it's something which philosophy can really help illuminate and some rigorous history can really help illuminate.
	So it is important.
	Yeah, well, I'll work on that.
	I don't know how I'm going to prepare her to keep on her own, and I know that a lot of children are terrified by that, and I know that I wasn't particularly, but I know that she is, so I don't know how to prepare her for that.
	I understand that I can't just, you know, say, well, now we've decided.
	And then we'll have to ease her into it.
	Oh, my God.
	Okay.
	Look, obviously, you're just not going to listen to anything that I said.
	I've just talked about preparation, preparation, preparation.
	And now you're going to say, well, I'm just going to tell them what I've just decided, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	Okay, so I've got to move on to the next caller.
	But I hope that you'll listen to this again and try and get more of it out of the second time than you did out of the first.
	All right, Mike, can we move on to the next caller?
	Oh, good.
	Oh, right.
	How are you doing, Mike?
	My armrest.
	It wasn't just me, right?
	The old claws holes in them.
	Okay.
	Up next is Lance.
	You spin me right round, baby, right round.
	I feel like I've had grease pouring all over me.
	My goodness.
	Well, you know, I get it.
	I mean, when people are in defensive mode and they're stressed, then it's tough for them to break out of mental habits.
	But hopefully it will be something that you can revisit again in the future.
	Preparation, everybody.
	Preparation is the key for...
	Yeah, if you're failing in the moment, it's because you fail to prepare.
	Failing to prepare is preparing for failure.
	All right.
	Well, up next is Lance.
	Lance wrote in and said, I've been in the friend zone with many women over the last several years.
	How do I escape the friend zone?
	Ron Jeremy Pills!
	Oh my goodness.
	So you would like me to elaborate a little bit more on what I'm talking about?
	Yes.
	Alright, so I guess what really made me think about it recently was I had a friendship with someone who I was really close with and it seemed like we were You know, becoming more and more intimate, she would send me pictures of Skype dinners we would have with flowers and the whole setup.
	She'd call me all the time.
	We talked about philosophy a lot, which was really...
	Wait, wait, wait, wait.
	Sorry, you had Skype dates?
	Yes, it was Skype dates, yeah, where she would set up her place at her table and stuff like that, and we would talk over Skype.
	Hang on, hang on a second.
	Sorry, hang on a second.
	Mike?
	Yes, sir.
	Where are my Skype dinners with flowers?
	Oh, yeah.
	Because this is what friends do.
	You have Skype dinners with flowers and candlelight.
	I can assume copious amounts of Barry White playing in the background.
	All right.
	If I could clarify, I moved away recently from where I'm originally from South Louisiana.
	So I moved away and she's somebody that I knew from back home.
	So I currently live in Michigan.
	So it was tough to actually meet for a date.
	Yeah, and of course, I just want to remind you, though, that if the webcam girl says that she needs money to pay for treatments in Bulgaria, anyway, just kidding.
	Reference to a prior show.
	Yeah, I remember listening to that one.
	No, no money involved.
	No money involved.
	Okay.
	And so it was pretty romantic, right?
	Uh, it seemed, um, not, maybe not romantic, like there was, there was flirting going on and stuff like that, or at least it seemed that way to me.
	But, uh, there was no real, like, relationship establishment.
	Like, we weren't boyfriend and girlfriend, so to speak, but I kind of felt like it was heading that way.
	I had known her for a while.
	Um, but what really made me think about this was, um, you know, she called me and she's like, hey.
	Sorry, hang on a sec.
	So you're in, you're in PHP land.
	And PHP is penis holding pattern.
	Which is, I got one on the back burner just in case, right?
	We got one ready.
	On deck is the penis just in case.
	New penis is not around.
	I got a PHP going on.
	But anyway, so then one day, go ahead.
	Yeah, so she calls us.
	She's like, you know, I got something important to talk to you about and stuff like that.
	And we had talked about philosophy a lot.
	So she would call me and have like different things that she wanted to talk about because she was getting her bachelor's in philosophy.
	And so we were talking and stuff like that.
	And she brings up another guy, right?
	Right.
	And that's when it hit me like a ton of bricks.
	It was tough.
	Right.
	Yeah, I'm sorry about that.
	It is.
	It's like a shot to the nads from a pretty hopped up horse, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And had you declared yourself at all?
	Declared myself meaning...
	Meaning I want to sail SS Torpedo Penis into your snug harbor or whatever.
	I'm attracted to you.
	I want to date you.
	I'm romantically interested.
	Let's move this to the next level.
	Whatever it's going to be, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I told her that, but the way it ended up happening, Steph, is it was really close to the, well, not really close, but like a month before I ended up moving away for work.
	And she was like, you know, you're moving away and I don't want to have a long distance relationship, yada yada, which seems, you know, kind of ironic since we would have Skype dates.
	But anyway, so that's kind of how it ended up.
	And I didn't see it at the time.
	Well, did you want a long distance?
	How long were you moving away for?
	So it was really uncertain.
	I've been around the country the past two years, but I was really thinking that it was just going to be for two years, and turns out it is going to be for two years.
	I'll be moving back home in the next three weeks.
	Wait, wait.
	How old is this woman?
	22.
	Oh, my God.
	I'm so sorry.
	Are you expecting a 22-year-old woman to wait for you for two years?
	No, no.
	Considering that it wasn't an actual relationship, I figured there'd be, you know, no waiting.
	It was just kind of a, you know, we'll continue to be friends.
	No, no, long distance is waiting!
	Long distance is waiting!
	Right, but there was no...
	You might as well be in prison with furloughs, right?
	I mean, long distance is waiting.
	There was no emotional commitment, right?
	It was just, I don't know.
	It was strange.
	What?
	What are we talking about emotional commitment?
	You wanted a girl to go out with you, and you were going to be gone for two years.
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah, so I guess...
	When she's 22, right?
	I guess it was kind of a dumb thing to do.
	The prime market of her dating life, right?
	Right.
	You understand, right?
	Yeah.
	Here, I'm going to give you a lottery ticket.
	I'd really like it if you don't cash it for two years, honey.
	Is that okay?
	Whereas some other guy's like, hey, here's a lottery ticket.
	Right?
	Right.
	And 22 is like...
	There's a reason they named a gun after it.
	I mean, it's bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, right?
	Well, I was going to say, maybe not in this case.
	I could see maybe with a typical woman, but she was, I guess, maybe another bad thing.
	She was raised Catholic, and she was hardcore Catholic, and she had never had sex before, or at least that's what she told me.
	Okay, so let me understand how you get friend-zoned.
	I'm not sure...
	And how old are you, by the way, roughly?
	I'm 25.
	Okay.
	So, let's pretend, and I'm going to keep my shirt on for this one because it's not the same as the other one, the supermodel guy, but let's pretend that I'm this girl.
	What was her name?
	I'd rather not use her actual name, so could you just make one up?
	Sure.
	Grisilda.
	Yes, that sounds sexy.
	Okay, so I'm Grishilda.
	Hang on, let me just...
	I've got video going here, so I'm going to turn the lights down a bit here.
	Hang on.
	All right.
	All right.
	It's a little bit more romantic.
	So, uh...
	How's it going?
	It's going good.
	Excellent.
	I like the way your voice just dropped there.
	I have flowers in my cleavage because I consider you a very close friend.
	Ooh!
	Ooh!
	Thorns.
	So, what have you got to tell gorgeous Grishilda this evening?
	I'm not really sure what to say.
	I'm just so taken aback by emotion and the imagery that I'm getting in my head.
	It's just lust.
	I understand it.
	I feel it very often when I'm shaving.
	No, wait.
	Sorry, broke character.
	All right.
	Grisilda sounds like someone who shaves.
	Maybe it's part of the Eastern European women's curling team.
	I don't know.
	All right.
	So let's get back to you.
	So now you have to tell me what you told Grisilda in real life.
	How did you try to get out of the friend zone?
	What was your thing?
	Hang on.
	Let me just get my eyebrow up here.
	Okay.
	Go ahead.
	So I basically started with, you know, we've been friends for a long time, and we've grown really close, you know.
	I feel like I can talk about anything with you, and I told her, I said, I would like to take our relationship to the next level.
	You'd like to level up with Chris Hilda?
	Yes, please.
	I felt like I had enough XP at the time.
	Yeah.
	Well, I tell you, that's not poetry.
	Yeah, I know it's not poetry.
	Yeah, I know.
	You know, your name is Lance.
	I mean, I already get this image of, like, Fabio on a romance cover.
	So, you know, I mean, listen, I mean, just to be...
	I just started reading Fifty Shades of Grey because the movie's coming out and I want to do a review.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so...
	That's, you know, I'd like to take our relationship to the next level is not Romeo and Juliet, you know?
	It's not hormone-laced language, right?
	Right, I know.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so...
	I want is not salesmanship.
	I got you.
	I'm listening.
	Do we have anyone else who'd like to take a shot at Grisilda?
	Anyone else?
	Anyone else?
	Just give Mike a ping who'd like to take a shot at wooing the lovely, facially furred Grisilda.
	Until we figure that out, let's just keep going with this.
	All right.
	So, if you want to sell something to someone, in other words, let's say you're in the A wholesale hard-on distribution business, right?
	Right.
	Then you are trying to sell a hard-on to a skeptical customer, right?
	Right.
	Now saying, I would like to move our relationship to the next level is not selling her hard-ons, right?
	Right.
	Oh, hang on.
	We've got someone who wants to...
	Yeah, one of the other callers.
	Grishield does crack.
	All right, Hunter.
	Hunter, also a name from a romance novel.
	My name is Lance Hunter.
	Right, okay.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	I hope we can get Rod Long on the call, but all right.
	All right, so Hunter, how you doing?
	Oh.
	I'm here, right?
	I am not wooed yet.
	Try it again.
	Hunter, how are you doing?
	Hmm.
	Can you guys hear me?
	We can hear you, Hunter.
	Okay.
	Can you hear me?
	I can hear you swinging and missing.
	I hear you.
	Hunter, now is not the time for mime.
	Maybe he's doing something on video that I'm glad I'm not seeing.
	Alpha miming.
	It's a new trend.
	Alpha miming.
	I can guarantee you, Mike, there is not one mime who is an alpha.
	Unless it's an alpha of being beaten up.
	Oh no, Hunter appears to have dropped off.
	Stage fright with Griselda.
	It's a shame.
	Right.
	My name's Lance.
	I was named after the medieval weapon.
	Anyway, all right.
	Okay, so to declare yourself is basically to say, biologically, right?
	I mean, there's romance, there's love, there's connection, but biologically, it is to say, let's make babies together.
	I want to make the sex with you, make the babies with you, and maybe make the retirement home as well, right?
	Right.
	Now, I'd like to take this relationship to the next level.
	It's really not...
	It's not going to do that.
	Yeah, it's not.
	Over Skype.
	Look, if you want the woman, if you want the woman, you go all the fuck out.
	And if you're not willing to go all the fuck out, you don't really want the woman, right?
	Right, exactly.
	Exactly.
	Which means you don't talk about leveling up over Skype.
	Right?
	Mm-hmm.
	You fly to see her, right?
	Right, yeah.
	And I went back home.
	You kidnapped her favorite celebrity.
	I'm sorry?
	I said, yeah, I went back home, I'd say four times a year, and we saw each other each time.
	I'm sorry?
	I'm trying to help your penis on it being cock-blocked by your brain.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So don't tell me that you went home and you saw her.
	I'm going to turn the lights back up for a second.
	That you saw her, right?
	Right, yeah.
	If you want to declare yourself to a woman, get on your knees, boy!
	With tears in your eyes and tell her how she moves you, how passionate she makes you feel, how alive you feel, how your heart has grown nine sizes being in proximity to her.
	How you can't stop thinking about her, about how you just imagine time with her in romantic ways and let's go to Paris and let's make rose petals on her bed and every goddamn cliche that you can think of, you know?
	Let's take chocolate waterfalls and eat each other.
	I mean, let's do stuff that is mind-blowing.
	Let's really get to know each other in physical, spiritual, emotional, sexual, sensual ways.
	You get on your knees and you declare yourself.
	You declare yourself.
	You sell your hard-on with fireworks.
	You are vulnerable.
	And if you don't want the woman enough to do that, then don't waste her time.
	Right.
	I see what you're saying.
	Exactly.
	Yeah.
	And I guess maybe to give you some context, it wasn't always this way for me, Steph.
	I was in a long relationship with someone through high school and through early college.
	We dated for four years and we talk about getting married all the time.
	And, you know, as the time went on, you know, I was getting ready to buy a ring and everything.
	And then it ended up falling apart.
	It ended up falling apart.
	That's all you got?
	What do you mean?
	What happened?
	So, it seemed like she was getting a little bit emotionally distant.
	I mean, I couldn't identify it.
	Women is by far my worst thing for me to deal with, but...
	She seemed like she was getting emotionally distant.
	She would tell me things like, you know, why didn't you come visit me at work, right?
	And things like that.
	And I didn't know why she would say things like that.
	Because she knew, you know, I had a job and I was going to college, you know.
	She'd make unreasonable demands.
	And she had ended up cheating on me.
	And I think that's when my confidence just left.
	Right.
	But philosophy, and I can't unravel all of that, other than to say that you're not talking about anything you did wrong.
	You know, this emotional distance, you're saying that you were emotionally available beforehand, then this happened, and it stopped.
	Yeah, it was, I think, either, yeah, I was gonna say, it's either not true, or it was a pattern or something like that, because my only other relationship after that, that lasted for, uh, For a year and a half, it was a strange relationship.
	It was probably one of the best relationships that I had ever had, both sexually and mentally.
	We connected on so many different levels.
	It's so frustrating because I hear you talk about the feminist stuff all the time.
	So she was going to school to be a psychologist and started getting the feminist talk.
	And then I was the only good guy left on the planet and all men were scum.
	And that's why that relationship fell apart.
	Yeah, but I mean, look, there's tons of propaganda around in the world.
	I mean, no man, I mean, No man who's got a great relationship with her dad is going to fall for the feminist crap.
	I mean, they're just not.
	They're just not.
	I mean, it's like me having—my stepbrother is a fantastic black guy, and I go to a KKK meeting, and I'm like, yeah, blacks are scum.
	I mean, it's still not going to happen if you've got a good relationship with—so look for the relationship around, right?
	But look— I don't know why.
	There's all this coyness.
	It's one of the things that drives me nuts about Fifty Shades of Grey.
	The woman is just, as is so commonly the case in these movies or these books, the Bridget Jones thing and the Elizabeth Bennet thing.
	She lies to herself.
	Oh, I'm not attracted to him.
	I mean, he's rich.
	He's gorgeous.
	He's self-confident.
	He's cocky.
	He's arrogant.
	And I get electric shocks every time I touch him.
	But I'm not really attracted to him.
	Oh, we've got another person on the line who wants to take a swing.
	At winning Griselda's furry charms.
	Hi.
	Yes, his favorite color is purple.
	He likes long walks on the beach and petting his dog.
	Ladies and gentlemen, Chris is next on the debut game.
	Go ahead, Chris.
	Chris, if your favorite color is purple, have I got a mole for you.
	Hello, Griselda.
	I think you're attractive.
	What do you think about that?
	I think that you're wise.
	I think that you have excellent taste and I can't help but admire your perceptiveness.
	Sorry, a bit of echo on my hand.
	I love that you have discriminating taste and you can recognize discriminating taste in others.
	Hello, are you still here?
	I am still here.
	If you want to sell someone, you don't make statements, you ask questions, right?
	Yes.
	What would you like to do?
	What are you looking for?
	How can I please you?
	Nope.
	Nope.
	Okay.
	That's being an empty vessel that I can program with my wants.
	That's not going to last, right?
	This is true.
	This is true.
	I'm curious on...
	Are you a webcam boy?
	How can I please you for $12.99 a minute?
	Yeah, that is kind of slimy, actually, sounding.
	Well, tell me about yourself.
	Tell me about what you find virtuous.
	What are your morals?
	What do you like?
	What do you stand for?
	Tell me about your morals?
	Oh, please!
	Oh, you didn't!
	Well, what am I trying to sell Griselda?
	Because she does like philosophy, right?
	And there's Skype chats and things of that nature.
	Can I have a candlelight?
	We gotta switch.
	You gotta switch.
	Okay, you're young.
	Alright.
	You be Griselda, alright?
	Take off your top.
	No, I'm kidding.
	Just be Griselda.
	Actually, that is my opening line.
	Take off your top!
	I'm in the window!
	I got a flashlight!
	Take off your top!
	I'm in the dark world, Griselda!
	Of the security guards!
	School of charm.
	I have a squid that is well-trained that can bring you to me.
	Alright, alright.
	So listen, let's pretend that you're Griselda and I want you, right?
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Griselda, I need to tell you something that is very important.
	And it comes from my head.
	It comes from my heart.
	It also comes from a part of me a little bit south of my nose and a little bit north of Australia.
	Are you ready?
	Yes, Lance.
	I'm very ready.
	Griselda, my angel, my queen.
	My burning heart's desire.
	I want you.
	No, no, no!
	Actually, let me correct that.
	Let me correct that.
	I, we, want you.
	Me, my two legs, my two arms, my twigs and berries, my tripod and sticks.
	We all want you.
	We want your mind.
	We want your heart.
	We want your body.
	We want your thoughts.
	We want your feelings.
	And frankly, I would be very, very happy going to work tomorrow with your musk on my mustache.
	And I want you not for a night, not for a week, not for a month, but for as long as we can make incredible fireworks together emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually.
	I want you.
	I am sick of this friend zone.
	I have way too many hormones to be a shoulder to cry on.
	I want to be a shoulder to rock you to sleep after some great, great sex.
	And...
	I am not willing to stay in the friend zone.
	I find you incredibly alluring.
	I find you unbelievably sexy.
	I can't stop thinking about you.
	Literally, my whole skin burns to wrap around you.
	It must go into the basement and put the lotion on!
	No wait, sorry.
	Wrong voice.
	But I want...
	To make you laugh, I find that you're incredibly funny, incredibly smart, incredibly insightful.
	I really feel like this is a conversation I can't imagine seeing the end of.
	And I don't want to ever, ever, ever, ever be a friend who regrets not declaring how all the various parts of me feel about you because if you find another guy and I didn't declare myself, I would feel so terrible.
	I would regret it for the rest of my life.
	Nobody has to say yes.
	Nobody has to say no.
	I'm declaring myself to you.
	I am incredibly attracted to you.
	I want you so bad it's driving me mad.
	And I want to declare myself to you because I want to be honest with you.
	I'm tired of pretending I don't feel the way I feel.
	And if some other guy comes along and scoops you up and I hadn't said anything, I would kick myself into a little tight black hole for the rest of my natural-born life.
	Griselda, what do you say?
	Lance...
	That's the sweetest thing I've ever heard.
	But I'm in Louisiana and you're in Michigan.
	There are so many other men.
	I don't know what to do.
	There are so many other men.
	You know, I'm absolutely going to have to agree with you that you have the choice of about three billion people if you're willing to learn a multitude of languages.
	But I am the guy who should be at the top of your list.
	In fact, I'm the guy who should be the top of the list, stand on all the other letters, and push them out through the bottom of the paper and have them blow away like dandelions in a hurricane.
	Because I am the guy from you.
	I am the guy who's going to be honest with you.
	I'm being honest with you right now.
	I am the guy who's going to respect you.
	I'm respecting you by not hiding any of my feelings from you right now.
	I'm the guy who's committed to you.
	I'm the guy who's courageous.
	How many of these other guys have declared themselves in a passionate, open, and honest way?
	What are they doing?
	What are they waiting for?
	Christmas, right?
	They can continue to wait and watch and hope that somehow you're going to bless them with your favors and so on.
	No.
	When I see something that I want and I'm in a relationship, I'm going to be honest about it.
	I'm going to be honest about it.
	It is you.
	It is only you.
	If you say no to me, I'll survive.
	But I'm telling you, it's going to take me a while to pick myself back up.
	So that's what I'm declaring.
	If you want these other guys, where are they?
	It's you and me talking on Skype.
	I got candles behind me.
	You got candles behind you.
	It's you and me.
	You can sit there forever waiting for your lottery ticket to come in.
	I'm telling you, I am your winning lottery ticket.
	Cash me in, baby.
	Lance, that's very masculine of you, and I appreciate that you can be so forward with your wants and desires with me.
	I'm sold.
	Lance, Griselda sounds pretty dull.
	I think you should move on and find someone else.
	Bye!
	Thank you for this opportunity.
	Have a good call.
	Thank you.
	She's not that pretty.
	I love a woman with a deep voice.
	It means a deep throat.
	Actually, isn't that just a man?
	Yep!
	I like the tickle of an Adam's apple on my frenulum!
	Anyway, I also liked it how Griselda was telling me what masculinity was.
	I'm sorry, I may have called the wrong number.
	So, but that's, to me, look, that's just an example, right?
	And I've had speeches like that.
	I mean, I've literally, when I want a woman, you say what you want.
	Life isn't going to last, right?
	I mean, we're all going to die.
	And, you know, I'd rather have embarrassment than regret, right?
	A woman says, no, it's embarrassing, humiliating, right?
	But...
	Regret is the great eroder, right?
	I'd rather get, you know, a big rock can handle a hammer blow.
	It just gets chipped a little, right?
	What it can't handle is erosion.
	And regret is like the erosion of wind-blown sand and rain.
	It just erodes everything.
	And I will choose anything in life over regret.
	That's why this show exists.
	Because of my commitment to avoiding regret.
	I mean, if I had some capacity to offer the world something truly great in the realm of philosophy, and I went back to selling software and coding and shit, man, oh my god, you get to your deathbed and you're like, wow, really let that opportunity go by.
	Right, yeah.
	I see what you're saying.
	Steph, I got a question for you.
	Yes, Christian.
	How would you have responded if...
	When I first broached the idea of us working together, I came up to you and said, Steph, I would like to potentially take a working relationship to the next level with you.
	Exactly.
	I'm sorry, what?
	Exactly.
	Like you get this email all the time, right?
	This applies in work.
	This applies in friendships.
	This applies in romantic relationships.
	This applies in so many different areas of life.
	If you want something, go make it happen.
	Go make it happen.
	Go make it happen.
	Simple words, but have some passion, have some excitement, have some confidence and some enthusiasm about what you want and do whatever it is that you need to do to make it a reality.
	If you don't have enthusiasm, you don't have passion, you don't have confidence behind your proposition, you're not going to get anywhere and you're not going to get what you want.
	Right.
	In life, don't go 5% and wait for people to come 5% back.
	That's just an incremental war.
	It's attrition.
	Maybe if we lived for 10,000 years, we could afford attrition.
	But in life, you go 50%, and you see if somebody wants to come meet you at 50%.
	But don't go 5% and see, well, they went 4%.
	Maybe I'll go 6% and see if they go 5%.
	Forget that.
	You declare yourself.
	If you're passionate about a woman or a man, you declare yourself.
	And you express interest and somebody was saying here like, well, why don't you just wait for someone who's interested and so on, right?
	Well, if a woman is not interested in a man who openly declares himself and admits his passion, his interest and his lust for her, Then she's not a very interesting woman.
	I mean, how many people get that in life?
	You know all these shows where the woman is leaving at the airport and the man is running to go to the airport and stop her?
	This is all before you get tasered for even...
	Well, you can't go and get the love of your life because you have a water bottle.
	I mean, but how many people...
	Are there people in your life who would run to the airport for you?
	And if not, why not?
	Are there people in your life that you would run to the airport for?
	If not, why not?
	Absolutely.
	So I guess maybe to help you some too to kind of get to know more a little bit about me, I have really good friendships.
	I have really close relationships with my parents and as far as Mike said to go get it, I'm a go-getter in every other part of my life except for this one.
	I don't know if I'm afraid of something or if I'm not, like you said earlier, emotionally available.
	I just don't understand it.
	It's always been with women and nothing else.
	I don't understand.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	Lance, what do you mean, I don't know if I'm afraid of something?
	How about the ball-crushing crater that's left behind in your heart when the woman says, nah.
	Yeah.
	So, yeah, probably is fear.
	It's fear of the ball-crushing humiliation of being rejected.
	Of course.
	It's horrible.
	The more you're passionate about someone, it hurts when they reject you.
	And particularly, it sounds like you've got a good relationship with your parents, but if you have any early attachment issues, being rejected by a woman, if you were in daycare or you experienced maternal abandonment or radical attachment disorder or just, you know, not...
	bonding with your mom, being rejected by a woman is like having a giant mule hoofprint to the forehead, balls and heart at the same time.
	Yeah.
	I mean, it hurt pretty hard when the woman cheated on you, right?
	I still haven't spoken to her to this day.
	That was the most crushing thing ever.
	It took me a while to get over that.
	Because I was in the relationship for so long.
	From junior year of high school to sophomore year in college.
	I really felt like we were committed to each other.
	At least I felt like I was committed to her.
	It was the most...
	The most crushing thing I've ever experienced, probably.
	Right.
	And because you don't know why it happened, you're gun-shy.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Did you want to marry the woman?
	Absolutely.
	You wanted to have kids with her?
	You wanted to spend your life together?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	As a matter of fact, you should mention kids.
	You know, since I had such a great relationship with my, you know, my mother and father, man, even above my own career, the only thing I really ever wanted to do was be a husband and a father.
	So your judgment sucks as far as that goes, right?
	Absolutely.
	Because you wanted to get married to the woman and she was getting ready to cheat on you.
	Right.
	So how did that happen?
	Did your parents think she was the one for you?
	Yeah, yeah, they did.
	Yeah, I mean, of course, there were women that they would have otherwise, you know, so I had another relationship.
	Okay, so no, no.
	So your parents' judgment sucks in this area, too, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right, so what did your friends think?
	Did your friends think she was the one for you?
	Some did, some didn't.
	I would say it was 60-40.
	Yeah, 60 yes, 40% no.
	And...
	Have you asked them why they didn't think she was the one for you?
	No, because the friends that said no weren't as tight with me as the people who said yes.
	Okay, so then the price of being in your orbit is agreeing with you, right?
	Because you're saying that the friends who were close to you were the ones who couldn't tell you the truth about any doubts they might have had, and the ones who weren't as close to you could express their disapproval, right?
	Right.
	I guess looking back on it, yeah, I guess they didn't want to disappoint me or something.
	I really don't know.
	I mean, I felt...
	Well, why don't you know?
	I mean, if this is breaking your heart, shouldn't you try and find everything out that you can about what happened?
	Yeah, I really should have.
	But I mean, I guess it's too late for that now.
	That was so long ago.
	Or do you think it would still be worth asking my friends, you know, what did you think about that relationship?
	How did you feel about it?
	Why didn't you tell me, right?
	You think that would be worth it even this far removed from the situation?
	Well, you know, the funny thing is people sort of ask me if it's worth it.
	Is it a question that is important to get answers for?
	Yeah, I believe so.
	Is it still on your mind?
	Is it still in your heart?
	Is it still affecting your behavior?
	Of course it is.
	You're putting out these tentative little weak things like move things to the next level, right?
	I mean, you're not an Otis elevator.
	You should be a passionate Latin lover with a boombox and a rose between your ass, right?
	Right.
	So yeah, of course it's important.
	And of course you should ask if it's on your mind.
	And your friends will want to help.
	Right, yeah.
	And they will too, man.
	I love my friends.
	I'm so fortunate to have them around, man.
	It's really the only thing that keeps me going.
	All right, so did you tell your friends about your intention to get out of the friend zone with this woman?
	Actually, yeah, I did.
	I did.
	With a few of them, yes.
	So when you move away, you lose control.
	People start having kids and their own lives and stuff like that, and it's hard to keep in touch.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Before we go on tangent, sorry.
	So...
	What did they say?
	Did they say, yeah, a way to get a woman's heart is to suggest tentatively moving to the next level?
	So I maybe didn't tell them how I was going to do it, right?
	I just said, you know, I'm going to ask her, you know, to be my girlfriend, right?
	And they all seemed supportive, you know?
	They really did.
	Right.
	Supportive is fine.
	I never know what supportive means, actually.
	Supportive most often means not telling people stuff they need to know.
	But did they help?
	I mean, did they role play?
	Did they say, how are you going to do it?
	I mean, the stuff I did, like pretend I'm her kind of thing, right?
	I mean, if you really want something, your friends should help pave the way for your penis, right?
	Right, yeah.
	Right.
	I mean, this is what you want the most in your life.
	If this is what you want the most in your life, then I as a friend should do everything I can, bend over literally backwards, to try and help you get what you want.
	Yeah.
	Do you know why the girl...
	I mean, other than the long-distance stuff, right?
	I mean, which is important, right?
	But do you know why she rejected you?
	No, no, I don't.
	I really don't.
	That would be something to find out, too.
	Just find out why.
	Well, you probably won't get an answer, a clear answer, right?
	Because people would rather be nice than helpful, which is around managing their own self-image and all that.
	But if you had to guess...
	Hmm...
	To be honest with you, Stephan, it must have been the distance.
	We're both young.
	I have a great job that I love.
	It couldn't be that we weren't compatible because we talked all the time.
	She must have felt like there wasn't something that was compatible.
	I don't know.
	Maybe she just wasn't attracted to me.
	That could have been just the bottom line.
	It's possible.
	Physically, it could have been that.
	Okay, let's go over some of the basics.
	Are you taller than she is?
	Yes.
	Do you make more money than she does?
	Not more money than her parents, but more money than her, yes.
	Well, okay.
	That's important.
	How much money do her parents make?
	That's why I mentioned it.
	Her father runs his own business and he makes quite a bit.
	I couldn't put a number on it, but there's no question that it's more than I make.
	Right.
	And so would it be a step down for her if she got married to you from where she grew up?
	Maybe, but not so much, no.
	I won't be shy.
	I almost make six figures at 25.
	But he had a lot of money.
	Now, what about looks?
	How would you rate her looks?
	Her looks?
	I'd say about a six, maybe?
	You got rejected by a six?
	What, you jab at the hat?
	No, actually, my sister made the comment one time.
	She said, I don't understand why you date women who aren't as attractive as you as a man.
	Right?
	So, I thought that was kind of strange.
	I mean, I found her attractive.
	I really did.
	But, I mean, empirically, if you're going to talk about, you know, lining up a bunch of guys and saying how attractive is she, right?
	Maybe a seven.
	All right.
	So...
	But you found her attractive?
	Yes, I did.
	Very much.
	Very much so.
	Very much so.
	Right.
	So, generally...
	Women reject men because they feel they can do better, right?
	And the same thing is true for men to women, right?
	Why do you reject a job offer?
	Because you think you can do better, right?
	Absolutely.
	All right.
	So, how are you presenting yourself in a way that she thinks, as a six, she can do better than a very attractive guy who makes six figures?
	I'm not really sure.
	Okay.
	Let me ask you this.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	For a shorter term relationship, in other words, and again, this is not trying to portray women as shallow, men can be just as shallow, but what would her friends say to her if she said, oh, I've decided to start dating Lance?
	Almost all of her friends like me.
	Almost all of her friends like me.
	Yeah, I know.
	I know.
	But would they say, score!
	Good job!
	I would...
	You see, it could be just because I'm biased, but I think they would.
	Okay.
	So then this makes no sense, right?
	Obviously.
	Because...
	You're more attractive than she is, you're taller than she is, you make more money than she does, and her friends would think that you were, and you were very compatible, blah-de-blah-de-blah, right?
	Right.
	So?
	Yes, as a matter of fact, one of our mutual friends, whom I've been friends with for a long time, she was like, wow, yeah, she's so lucky, right?
	Right.
	So this means that you have an undercurrent where you're doing the rejection.
	Yeah, I guess I guess I wouldn't.
	That would make sense.
	Look, I mean, you're successful in your career, right?
	I mean, you're making six figures at 25, which is fantastic, right?
	And do you apply the same principles to dating as you do to your career?
	In other words, if you wanted to score a major account in your business, would you go to a potential customer and say, well, I'd really like to move this business relationship to the next level?
	No, no, absolutely not.
	What would you do?
	I would sell as hard as I could.
	As a matter of fact, I do web design, so I have to sell my designs to customers all the time.
	Right.
	And so you get out there and you work to get what you want and you make it as appealing as possible for the other person, right?
	Right.
	You put your best foot forward every time.
	Right.
	So why does your wallet get the work that you're not willing to give to your dick?
	I'm having the slightest idea.
	Dude, if you're not going to give me any work here, I've got to move on to the next caller.
	This is like the 20th time you said you don't have a clue about something.
	You can't make six figures and be this dumb about your dick, right?
	I mean, you just can't.
	I mean, if I had to guess, if I had to give you a guess, Stefan, it'd probably be because I might not be as confident at my relationship skills as I am in my work skills.
	No, that is circular reasoning.
	Right?
	That is circular reasoning.
	Right?
	Why aren't you successful?
	Well, I guess I lack confidence.
	Oh, it's just another way of saying, lacking confidence is just another way of saying not successful.
	Right?
	Right.
	Why do you lack confidence in this area?
	Maybe because I've experienced so many failures before in this area.
	I thought you said you just had one major relationship.
	Like I said, I had two.
	I had the one that lasted for four years and the one that lasted for a year.
	Those were my major relationships and they both failed.
	And you don't know why I free the rent?
	I don't know why for the first one.
	Like I said, the second one was because she just, it was strange.
	Like six months into the relationship, she started becoming a, like one of the people said in the chat, a feminazi.
	And that was just hard for me.
	That was hard for me to deal with, man.
	And I tried to hold on, but I just couldn't.
	And how did you try to hold on?
	You know, I tried to, you know, to talk with her about things.
	You know, it's a reason we would sit down and talk about these things.
	And she just wasn't open to.
	And I mean, that's how I, you know, I eventually found like your show and Karen Strawn and shows like that.
	But hang on.
	OK, so if the woman starts trashing men, right?
	You love your dad, right?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	Right.
	You say, hey, you bigot, you're talking about my dad.
	You're talking about your male friends, my male friends.
	You're talking about my uncle's.
	Stop being so bigoted.
	I don't care what shit they're pushing you in school.
	That is bigoted shit.
	Do not talk to me about this stuff.
	It is disrespectful to half the planet.
	Yeah, I would tell her things like that all the time and we'd have these huge conflated arguments about it.
	No, no, no, no.
	No!
	Not huge conflated arguments.
	That is unacceptable.
	You are talking trash about people I love.
	If you had black friends and I came over with all this racist shit, what would you say to me?
	I'd be upset about it.
	Right?
	Real upset about it, yeah.
	You'd say to your girlfriend, right, if you have lots of black friends and your dad was black and this and that, and I came over with all this racist shit that all blacks are assholes and thieves and liars, what would you say to me?
	I would tell you that you're a bigot and you need to change your ways.
	And let's sit down and let's talk about why you feel that way about these people.
	I wouldn't...
	No, no, no, no, not why do you feel this way about these people?
	That's some racist shit, man.
	Not acceptable.
	That's it.
	End of discussion.
	Are you going to drop this shit or not?
	If you're not going to drop this shit, then...
	GTFL, right?
	Right.
	No long discussions about why you're a man hating bigot.
	Don't honor that shit with discussions.
	Oh, do you think all Jews are hook-nosed scum who steal?
	Sorry, my dad's a Jew.
	You can't do that shit around here.
	I'm surprised you even tried.
	Are you stupid?
	Right, yeah, I see what you're saying.
	I shouldn't have even given it the time of day that I did.
	Well, no, you say no, no, no, no.
	Most people don't have internal standards of behavior.
	They'll just do what they can get away with, right?
	And it serves her to conform in her psychology degree to the man-hating stuff, and then you come and you're like, well, I guess we'll have long conversations about it, and blah, blah, blah, right?
	No!
	No!
	Guy comes to me and says, all Greeks, especially Greek women, are total bitches.
	They're assholes, they're thieves, they're all of them, right?
	You know I'm married to a Greek woman that I love almost as much as life itself, right?
	I don't have long discussions with him about his bigotry.
	That is, you want to say any, one more word to me, you drop that shit right now.
	Right.
	Bye.
	Thank you.
	So maybe I'm a little too accommodating.
	Maybe.
	Maybe you're a little too accommodating.
	I say that loosely, yeah.
	A little too accommodating.
	No, listen, listen, listen.
	It's not called accommodating.
	You're sexist.
	You've got all this...
	You would never take this shit from men, right?
	Oh, no, absolutely not.
	Guy comes up and says, all women are unholy bitches.
	Well, maybe except for you.
	You'd be like, hey, you're talking about my mom here.
	My sister.
	Drop that shit or get the fuck out of my house.
	Right.
	So, yeah, hold on.
	If a guy came along and started talking trash about all women, a guy comes on my show and says, women, I'd be like, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho.
	I've got a wife I love.
	I've got a daughter I love.
	I've got female friends I love.
	I love Mike's wife.
	You don't talk about women like that.
	There are women in my life I absolutely, completely and totally adore.
	No, right?
	Right, absolutely.
	You don't go to Harlem in a pointy white hatch, right?
	And don't come to me with this man-hating bullshit.
	Or the woman-hating bullshit.
	And so, you're sexist because you wouldn't accept that shit from a man.
	You're sexist because I bet you most of the people you sell to are men, but then you think it's somehow different with women?
	My guess is that you've been raised to treat women as little Fabergé eggs in a windstorm, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Only one time in my life did my dad ever give me permission to, I guess you could say, retaliate against my younger sister, who was always really confrontational.
	What do you mean?
	She was confrontational.
	I don't understand.
	So we grew up, I guess, I don't know if this would be a typical brother and sister relationship, but she was really competitive with me with everything and antagonizing, and we didn't like each other up until, I'd say up until I graduated college, which was two years ago.
	Yeah, so it was just, we never had a good relationship.
	It was growing up.
	I mean, yeah.
	How is that possible in a loving family for the siblings to not have a good relationship?
	I I guess maybe it was it was just a competition show She was really competitive.
	No, no, no.
	You're putting this back on your sister.
	That's not what I asked.
	Okay.
	Your sister is not at fault because she's a child.
	How is it possible with loving parents to not get along with your sibling?
	Because they allowed it.
	Well, no.
	See, that's making them passive.
	Right.
	You don't get to be passive as a parent, right?
	Right.
	If I lock a guy in my basement and don't feed him, well, I guess he just allowed him to die.
	It's like, nope, I killed him.
	Right.
	Right, exactly.
	So, did your parents know that you and your sister did not get along?
	Yeah, yeah.
	They knew.
	They knew.
	Now, when I say we didn't get along, it wasn't always a nightmare, but...
	No, no, no.
	Don't stop back.
	Don't start walking this one back.
	What did they do about you and your sister not get along?
	Not much, really.
	Other than to tell us to get along, or they would...
	Oh, man.
	Having trouble remembering how they would deal with it.
	Well, that's important.
	It means you don't know.
	It means that there was nothing memorable, which is why it didn't change, right?
	Right, exactly.
	So why didn't they do something about it?
	I don't know.
	Maybe they just saw it as natural brother and sister confrontation.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I see my dad grew up with three brothers, and maybe he just didn't Maybe just didn't know how to handle raising a girl.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Okay, so are you saying that I grew up with a brother?
	Does that mean I don't have any idea how to raise my daughter?
	No, no, I'm just...
	See, again, you're making some pretty generalizations that somebody could get kind of upset about if they chose to, right?
	Yeah, I apologize for that.
	I'm really trying to dig deep here and give you some solid answers.
	Actually, you're trying as hard as you possibly can, Lance, to dig as shallowly as possible.
	you're trying to not dig deep as hard as you possibly can.
	Okay.
	Right?
	Because you're giving me complete parent excusing non-answers, right?
	Right.
	You were spanked two to three times a week.
	Right.
	You experienced verbal abuse and threats from your parents.
	Just as a matter of fact, when I took the ace that you sent, it's just the insult portion that applied to that particular question.
	And what was the insults?
	What were the insults?
	So, let's say me and my dad were doing something, right?
	Or he would tell me to do something, and I would say no, right?
	Or I wouldn't want to do any kind of chores, or I wouldn't want to do any work, you know?
	Sometimes he would call me lazy.
	And as a child, I didn't want to do very much.
	I was a pretty lazy kid.
	Well, you were being hit, right?
	You were being hit 7 to 900 times.
	Sorry.
	You were being hit between 100 to 150 times a year, right?
	Right.
	Between the 8, you know, between maybe toddler, maybe a little bit older, maybe 6 to 11, 6 to 12.
	Wait, you weren't hit when you were 4 or 5?
	No, not when I was that small, no.
	Not when I didn't know the difference, right?
	How do you know?
	Because I don't, I guess maybe you could say I don't know because I don't remember being hit at that age.
	But I do remember being spanked at later ages.
	So you might have been spanked earlier?
	It's entirely possible.
	It's entirely possible.
	And you know why I'm saying that is that you'd have a very clear delineation.
	So let's say your parents said, well, we're only going to spank kids when they get to be six.
	Then you'd remember on your sixth birthday, your parents saying, hey, listen, now let me introduce you to Mr.
	Slappy Hand, right?
	Because that is what is going to happen when you disobey us.
	Now, you've been having a free ride, no hitting because you were young.
	Now, it's going to change, right?
	Do you remember that?
	The changes in discipline, no.
	But like I said, I can think of the earliest times that I was spanked, right?
	I can go back to my memory.
	That you remember.
	That I remember, right.
	I agree with that, absolutely.
	But if there wasn't a transition, if there wasn't a conscious...
	That explained transition, then, right?
	Right.
	So it's a possibility it could have happened earlier.
	Yeah, I acknowledge that.
	As your sister older or younger?
	Younger.
	And do you remember the first time you saw her getting hit?
	I don't remember the first time I saw her getting hit.
	No.
	No, I don't remember the first time I saw her getting hit.
	I know she was spanked.
	Not as much as I was.
	And do you know when they started spanking her?
	I would, like I said, from memory serve, I'm just giving you an estimate, maybe around the same ages.
	Except they, I remember they stopped sooner, because my dad had a thing about not hitting, you know, I guess when my sister started to develop and hit puberty, he just, he couldn't spank her anymore.
	Like, he told me he couldn't hit a girl, which is strange, you know.
	Well, so this is where you get, you understand, this is women of the Fabergé eggs in a windstorm, right?
	Right, yeah.
	Oh, there was always a...
	There was never a different mental standard for, like, different moral standard, but there was a different way they approached the discipline, and there was a different way we approached things physically, too.
	Like, she didn't have to do any chores outside of the house.
	I did.
	Typical thing, you know?
	So you had to do the more...
	Physically demanding chores.
	Right, yeah.
	Taking out the trash, cutting the grass.
	Because women are Faberge eggs in a windstorm.
	Do you see this pattern?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	I'm agreeing with you.
	Yep.
	Right.
	So, so you probably inherited sexism, which is not treating women as you would treat men.
	I see what you're saying.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	You have to be deferring, you have to cater to their delicate sensibilities, you have to build a masculine wall around their fragile hibiscus little limbs, you have to shield them, you have to protect them, you have to defer to them, right?
	Because patriarchy, right?
	Right, yeah, exactly.
	Although, I'll have to say, I've gotten better at that ever since, like I said, I discovered your podcast and the men's rights movement and stuff like that.
	At work, anyway, in my personal life, maybe it might be different, but at work, we're the same standard.
	So help me understand how, Lance, you have what you characterized as a great relationship with people who hit you probably 1,500 times when you were a child.
	Yeah.
	My dad and I are really good friends.
	We're really good friends.
	I can talk to my dad about almost everything.
	As a matter of fact, the only reason I did put in a question to hear is because dad and I have batted around the whole friend zone thing for a couple years now, and I don't think I can get an unbiased answer from him.
	So you can talk to your dad about being hit?
	Yeah, I asked them.
	As a matter of fact, ever since I started watching your show, because my view of spanking was obviously different before I started watching your show.
	I asked them, how often did you spank me?
	Why did you spank me?
	We talked about that with my mother and my father.
	And did you tell them that you, I assume, objected to it morally?
	Yes, I told them I don't agree with that.
	I did at one point in my life.
	I'll admit that.
	I did agree with it at one point in my life, but seeing the research and the empirical data that you've presented, it's not justifiable.
	And what did they say?
	They said that that was all right.
	I mean, they really had no...
	Wait, wait, wait.
	What do you mean that was all right?
	They didn't have any objections to my beliefs.
	And I guess it's maybe because I'm not raising children.
	Didn't have any objections to your beliefs?
	What are you talking about?
	Did you find morally objectionable that they hit you 1,500 times as a child?
	Or 1,000 times or whatever it was?
	Yes.
	So, if they accepted that they did wrong, did they apologize?
	Did they offer to make restitution?
	I mean, what did they do?
	No, they didn't offer to apologize or anything like that, no.
	No, it was, I guess you could say, the typical, you know, we did the best we could, we thought we were doing what was right, you know.
	And I know you hear that all the time.
	So, did they think that it was morally wrong what they did?
	No, I mean, they must not have thought it was morally wrong if they raised- No, no, no, now, now.
	Did they understand that it was against best practices, that it's not recommended by the American Pediatric Association, that no credible book on parenting that's not targeted at religion nutjobs has recommended spanking for 30 years?
	Maybe it's my fault that I didn't get that in-depth with them.
	See, now you're blaming yourself, right?
	If my daughter came to me and said a foundational aspect of my parenting had huge moral issues for her...
	Right.
	I could tell you that conversation would go on for months.
	Because that would be a huge barrier between us.
	I wouldn't get to fucking wish it away with, well, I did the best I could, right?
	Which certainly, if I hit her, it would never have been an excuse for her.
	How often were you allowed as a child to say, well, I did the best I could, so don't hit me, right?
	Right.
	So, if my daughter came and said, Dad, the fact that you...
	Didn't send me to public school is abusive.
	It was abusive to me for years.
	As a parent, I would have a foundational responsibility to pursue that conversation through to a conclusion that was satisfying to her.
	Right.
	And I would not be able to let go of Of that conversation, since I was the parent who made the moral decisions in the family as a parent to her, I would not be able to let that go until such time as we had achieved resolution.
	And that's not what happened with you.
	It got wished away, right?
	I'm going to say the magic words, right?
	I did the best I could.
	Well, that's how I was raised.
	Blah-di-blah-di-blah, right?
	Over.
	Done.
	And then you tell me that you can talk to your dad about anything.
	Right.
	I see.
	Thank you.
	You have not even begun this conversation with your parents and it is an essential conversation to have.
	Because until you know how to get your needs across in a relationship and how to get your needs met, the friend zone is going to be your lifelong imprisonment.
	The women faded away because you can't assert your needs.
	You can't assert your needs because you were hit a thousand times as a child and because your parents wish away your fundamental moral criticisms of how you were raised.
	And you take it because you don't know how to assert your needs in a relationship.
	So you're going to get involved with people and you're not going to be able to assert your needs and then they're going to basically drift away because you're not there.
	And it goes right back to being hit as a child.
	That's why it's so important to assert your needs with your parents and say, this converse, that's not even remotely satisfying.
	You can't just hit a child a thousand times and say, well, we did the best we could.
	How the fuck do I know you did the best you could?
	Did you take classes?
	Did you consult experts?
	Did you watch Dr.
	Phil, who specifically rejects spanking?
	Did you listen to APA? Did you read any parenting books from any accredited experts?
	Did you talk to any psychologist?
	How the fuck did I know?
	Do I know that you did the best you could?
	And how insulting is it to tell that to me without providing a single shred of goddamn evidence?
	I'm not saying that you have to say it exactly like that or get angry, but I'm saying to you that you need to find a way to be able to assert your needs.
	And how the fuck were you not able to intervene with your two children not getting along for, oh I don't know, approximately 20 goddamn years?
	Right?
	Ghosts can't reproduce.
	Right?
	Right.
	You can't hold a woman if you have no physical arms.
	If you are adrift of compliant smoke, you will never be able to hold on to anyone, least of all yourself.
	So you're there, you're convenient, and people get frustrated with you.
	And you spin stories.
	You do.
	You'll hear this when you play it back.
	And when you really do dig in for this conversation with your parents, you'll come back and listen to this podcast and it will blow your mind how little truth there was in what you were saying.
	I have a great relationship with the people who hit me a thousand times when I was growing up, hard, two to three times a week.
	Who called me lazy.
	I have a great relationship with these people who, when I brought up my most foundational moral issue of abuse in my life, waved it all away.
	And I can talk to them about anything.
	It makes no sense what you're saying.
	No sense at all.
	Imagine me, just to get a sense of perspective, I come to you and I say, I've been married to a woman who's hit me two to three times for 15 years.
	Two to three times a week, she has punched me.
	For 15 years.
	I love her.
	She's a wonderful wife.
	I can talk to her about anything would that make any sense to you at all Absolutely not.
	I'd tell you that was 15 years a waste of time.
	Well, I'd say that you are saying that which is convenient to your wife.
	Not what is in your heart.
	Right.
	And if you can assert your needs with your parents, then you can assert your needs with anyone.
	How am I able to be assertive?
	Because I was assertive with my parents.
	That's the dragon you have to slay in order to get to the treasure chest.
	I let nobody scrub my life from my heart.
	I let nobody scrub the truth that I see from my mouth.
	Doesn't mean I'm right.
	It's the truth that I see.
	I make the case for it.
	But I had to be a ghost to live in the fucking mausoleum of my family for 15 years.
	15 years of undead imprisonment in the empty, caged heart of an emotionally abusive, hellhole family.
	Mom, basically.
	That was a sentence that was passed on me by circumstance.
	I was unjustly convicted of a non-crime by the accidents of fate.
	Boom.
	You are now trapped in the ribcage of an acidic mother heart.
	That sentence I had to serve, and as soon as I could get the fuck out of that Shawshank Redemption situation, I climbed through Rita Hayworth and borrowed the fuck out.
	Sent my mom to Vancouver, took in roommates, worked three jobs, made it.
	That sentence, the first 15 years, I had to serve.
	I could not get out.
	But the world set me up for a life sentence, right?
	The world set me up for a life sentence.
	And the world is setting you up for a life sentence.
	And I'm telling you, speak the words that break the walls.
	Speak the words that break the skies if you have to.
	Speak the words that break the world because if the world can be broken by words, it does not deserve to stand as it is.
	But you do need to dig deep if you want true love.
	You do need to dig deep and you need to bring yourself out of the grave.
	You need to bring yourself out of Of the ghostliness, out of the absence, out of the living dead of compliance and emptiness and easiness and propaganda and conforming yourself to the necessary crazy of the guilty conscience.
	Right?
	Right.
	You sound completely dispirited at this possibility.
	No, I'm not dispirited.
	I'm just getting a little emotional.
	I'm trying not to break down.
	Good!
	It's about time.
	Tell me what you're feeling.
	I'm just...
	It's like, I don't know how I let it go for so long.
	Because I really do value my relationship with my parents.
	I just need to be more honest with them and more forward about this stuff.
	I can't.
	I feel like I gotta like maybe protect people from things sometimes.
	And I don't I don't value myself.
	Go on.
	Like even if it even if it destroys me you know if I save them any pain it's It was like worth doing or whatever, but I can't do that forever.
	You can.
	Most people do, right?
	Right.
	It's just it wouldn't be healthy, man.
	No.
	I'm sorry.
	Don't apologize.
	This is what we're here for.
	The connection, right?
	Right.
	You are there to protect people from the consequences of their histories.
	Right.
	You are there to protect people from the consequences of their mistakes.
	Like a soldier is there to protect people from the consequences of bad foreign policy, bad loans, bad debts, bad arms sales, bad everything.
	You are there to protect your parents from the choices of their history.
	And you are there to protect women from the consequences of their bad decisions.
	And you are just racing around, and I can tell you how you know how exhausting this is.
	You are racing around, Lance, trying to prop everyone up who keeps falling over, and you have no time for a deep breath into your own heart and lungs, right?
	So true.
	And it's part of why you're successful in business and part of why your heart is dying a solitary lonely death.
	Not dead yet, but I would not say it has forever to break out.
	No, it doesn't.
	Let the world fall.
	Be yourself.
	Be yourself.
	Speak your truth.
	Be what the world made you.
	Apologize for nothing that you were forged by.
	Apologize for nothing that you had to survive, right?
	Apologize for no shells that you had to dodge and no bullets you had to duck and no dead bodies you had to hold up to not get skewered.
	Apologize for nothing that you had to do in order to survive.
	Make the world apologize for forcing you to fucking survive.
	I won't apologize for the scars I bear.
	I will damn well wait for the world to apologize for the scars it gave me.
	And if the world does not apologize for the scars it gave me, then the world and I will be enemies.
	And the world and I will be enemies until the world apologizes, because only when the world apologizes will I know that my daughter will be safe to walk this planet.
	And I will fight the world and woo the world and make jokes at the world and take my shirt off to the world and dance and sing and make a fool of myself to the world to curse, condemn, and giggle at the world until the world apologizes for the scars it gives to children.
	And then my daughter can walk a world not haunted by the demons of history, but by the angels of reason.
	But not until then.
	And not until then will you be able to deal with the scars that you have until you can speak the truth to the people who harmed you and not comply to what they want for fear of what they did.
	Do not let the guilty conscience of wrongdoers be the physics of your non-existence.
	That's really exactly what I needed to hear.
	Thank you.
	I know.
	So I have a I guess you could say maybe a tangential question if you'd have time for one more.
	It's related to what we just finished talking about.
	A part of me being upfront and honest with my dad is my dad, he had a childhood that was a lot like yours in many ways.
	Should our conversation start off by me maybe recommending he go to therapy or something like that?
	No.
	No.
	No, because that's the truth of what might make you feel safe in the future, but that's not the truth of what you feel now.
	Right.
	Right?
	And that's trying to get the therapist to get your father to do the right thing, rather than your vulnerability and your openness.
	Why can't you be vulnerable with women?
	Because you can't be vulnerable with your parents, right?
	Right.
	Your parents can't hurt you now.
	They can frighten you, but they have no control or power over you now, as in the past, right?
	The way that we get our unconscious to wake up to the passage of time is to act when we have choice against the edicts of when we were slaves.
	The unconscious never knows the next day until we change our behavior.
	Until we empirically look at the now and change the train track of slavery.
	Jump the tracks.
	Get off the groove.
	Change the habits.
	Do in freedom what was unthinkable in enslavement.
	If we act in a manner that is free, our unconscious understands that we are no longer trapped.
	When we confront those who had authority over us as children, our unconscious understands that we are no longer children.
	That time has passed that we have become free and that we haven't graduated into becoming like them.
	What we do not confront, we inhabit.
	What we do not reject, we accept.
	What we do not fight, we become.
	We either fight the people in armor or we become armor.
	To inform yourself that you're no longer a child, you must act like an adult.
	Acting like an adult means going to your parents if they've wronged you and saying, you wronged me.
	You must take ownership for that because I cannot have people in my life who claim to be adults but will not take responsibility.
	I cannot have people in my life who hit me for inconsequential mistakes as a child, but will not own the mistake of hitting me as a child.
	I cannot grow bigger than my parents.
	My parents are my ceiling.
	If they're in my life, I will never be bigger than they are because they've got 20 or 30 or 40 years on me.
	So if I am to grow, my parents must grow.
	Or get the hell out of the way.
	But I cannot be bigger than my parents.
	I cannot have more words than the language I learned allows.
	I cannot be more mature than my parents.
	Which is why you must work to get them to grow up if they have not grown up.
	And if they refuse to grow up, my choice was, I must grow even if I break the sky itself.
	If the tree is planted in a small room, the tree stays small or cracks the ceiling if it has to.
	To be committed to growth means that nothing and no one and no ideology and no authority and no government and no prison and no gods themselves stand in the way of your growth because with your growth comes the necessary growth and improvement of the entire fucking species which we desperately need because our technology of destruction is vastly outstripping our capacity to grow our hearts into love and sympathy and care and concern for children.
	We know infinitely more about how to disassemble human beings than grow them straight.
	We know vastly more about how to incinerate the human heart than feed it with love.
	We know vastly more about how to bring death than to bring life to this world.
	We can kill the entire planet 20 times over.
	We can't reach out in sympathy to a hurt child in a mall.
	We must grow the technology that we're developing, the power, the bombs, the NSA, the internet, the scanning, the x-rays, the drones, the targeted weapons, the bio-warfare, the chemical warfare.
	That shit means grow the fuck up human race!
	We don't have time anymore to wait for generations and generations and generations of chipping away at the bad bloody beast of abuse.
	We don't have time anymore!
	The power of the market, the growth of science, The growth of our capacity to destroy the entire planet many times over is going so fast that the luxury of incremental growth has been lost for centuries.
	The luxury of incremental growth, of growth that does not terrify, that does not challenge, that does not shred our heart with the terror of having to grow faster than we're supposed to grow, tribally, slowly, incrementally, bit by bit.
	Oh, well, my dad hit me with a belt, but I'm only going to hit with a wooden spoon, and my kid will only hit with a fist, and his kid will only hit with an open hand, and his kid will only hit once every month, and we don't have time for that anymore.
	Because the market and the growth of science and the growth of the military-industrial complex has rendered it absolutely essential that we move as fast as the market.
	We move as fast as the weaponry in the improvement of the experience of children.
	Because the weapons are getting stronger and they're getting far stronger, far faster than our ethics are getting.
	Right?
	We can't wait.
	We grow though we crack the ceiling.
	We grow though we break through and crack the ceiling of the cathedral.
	We grow though we break through and crack the ceiling of Congress.
	We grow though we crack the very ceiling and roof of history itself and grow into a new world.
	And cast the old world aside like a snake shedding its skin.
	And that's the challenge That is part of your personal journey and the journey of the species as a whole.
	We can't wait anymore.
	We can't wait to just get things a little bit better, a little bit better, a little bit better.
	The government has grown 500% in 30 years.
	Are we 500% better parents?
	In two or three generations, we've developed the capacity to destroy the entire planet.
	Has our parenting improved as fast?
	No.
	No, no, no.
	We need to screw our courage to the sticking place, go and speak the truth, and if we can't get our parents to grow, we have to keep our children from our parents.
	They have a choice through us that we did not have when we were children.
	I did not have a choice To have my mother in my life as a child, my daughter has that choice through me.
	And this I'm trying to tell you is not just about you.
	I want you to get laid.
	Don't get me wrong.
	I want you to stay out of the friend zone.
	but it is much, much bigger than that.
	Right.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	But you gotta stop dropping the bullshit bombs like, I come from a wonderful family, and I can talk to my parents about anything, and my dad is my best friend, and all this kind of stuff, right?
	There's propaganda, and it's propaganda from your parents.
	It's not propaganda from your history.
	It's certainly not what your butt would tell me, right?
	Right.
	That's gonna be a struggle.
	It is.
	It is.
	But you like having a cell phone, right?
	We like having all this great new technology.
	It just means we've got to upgrade ourselves as quickly as, say, Android gets upgraded.
	Right.
	The reason why I say it's going to be so tough is because I spend a lot of time with my father.
	A lot of time with my father.
	We do a lot of things together.
	And it's just going to be so tough.
	And you don't have to do it, but you're going to be in the friend zone, I think, if you don't.
	I agree with you will you keep me posted?
	I'm not sure.
	Yeah, absolutely, man.
	Absolutely, I will.
	I really appreciate this, to have an unbiased opinion from a stranger and for you to spend time with someone whom you've never even seen.
	Well, I appreciate that, and I've always had as my mission statement to put the strange in stranger, so I'm glad it's helpful.
	You've succeeded.
	Excellent.
	Well, thanks, Lance.
	I appreciate that.
	Let us know how it goes.
	And do you want us to forward any love letters we get?
	I don't know.
	I have mixed feelings about that.
	We can talk about that stuff.
	Okay, let Mike know.
	All right, let's do one more.
	And thank you, Mike.
	Oh, no problem at all, Lance.
	Thank you so much for calling in.
	You guys have a good night.
	You too.
	Up next is Heather.
	Heather wrote and said, I'd like the opportunity to let go of my anger at my parents.
	I'd like to forgive them because it would unburden me.
	But how do you forgive someone who doesn't know what they did?
	How do you forgive someone who doesn't know, who still does some of the same things?
	Excuse me.
	How do you forgive someone who might do it again to your kids if they have the chance?
	We just call you Heather, the queen of rhetorical questions for the evening.
	Is that what we're going to have to do?
	Well, that wasn't my question summary, but that was something I wrote.
	Did you want to alter the question summary?
	Oh, I actually did have a different question summary I sent in.
	I can look it up real quick if you don't have it there.
	Mike, if you have it, you can read it.
	Otherwise, I'm happy to wait.
	We definitely want to get the right questions.
	That's what I have, but if you want to summarize your question other than that, I mean, we don't need the official summary.
	You can just tell us what it is you want to talk about.
	No, it has been entered into the official records.
	Carved in the very stone of the living rock.
	Let's see, where is it?
	Oh, the question line that I wrote to you, Mike, was how do I stop the cycle of abuse with my future children and develop a more positive relationship with my parents?
	All right.
	Would you like to talk about your ACE score, young lady?
	Yes.
	Alright, go for it.
	Well, the one thing I kind of wanted to get into was that I had written that my mother had been hit, but it was before I came around.
	It was all throughout when she was growing up.
	She had a really abusive childhood.
	Which plays into a part of my upbringing.
	And her mother also had a very bad childhood.
	And my concern is that I would live out some of the same things that they've lived out on each other and on me.
	My mom didn't ever hit me, but I was terrified of her growing up.
	And a lot of it was because she never learned to deal with her own past.
	And I just don't want to do the same thing.
	I don't know if that's a bit of a tangent, but...
	No, it's not a tangent.
	I mean, you're pushing a lot of information across, some of which I think is conscious and some of which I think is unconscious.
	So, when you have been abused, and just for those who don't know, ACE score of four, verbal abuse and threats, neglect, not enough food, dirty clothes, no protection, or medical treatment.
	I'm not saying those are all the case for you.
	Live with alcohol or drug abuse, household member depressed, mentally ill, or suicide attempt.
	Mm-hmm.
	I can elaborate on those.
	I guess the first one is my father was an alcoholic when I was young because he hated his job and he drank so that he couldn't function.
	It was self-medication.
	What, what, what?
	Oh.
	Okay, so you know you have, when you talk about negative things with your parents, you always give causes, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, I figure it doesn't make a lot of sense if I don't explain why, necessarily, or that'd be more information.
	How is that an explanation of why?
	Are you saying everyone who hates their job is a drunk?
	No, no, no, no.
	I guess what I'm trying to say is he resorted to alcohol.
	It wasn't a good thing to do.
	He realized eventually that it was extremely unhealthy, and he stopped, and he hasn't had anything to drink in, I think it's been 10 years.
	That's good, but please don't insult everyone who hates their job by blaming it on hating your job.
	Your father drank because your father chose to drink.
	Yes, I agree.
	Your mother was terrifying because she chose to be intimidating rather than something else, right?
	Yes, of course it doesn't help that they have a bad childhood, but it's not causal, right?
	Right, gotcha.
	Otherwise I'd be screaming abuse at you and you wouldn't even be calling in because I had a bad childhood.
	It's not causal, right?
	Yes, I agree.
	Which is good because otherwise I might be a terrible parent, which I really don't want to be.
	Yeah, because you're saying to me, how can I make it not causal, but you're saying that your parents' bad behavior was causal.
	I don't mean to say it was causal.
	I wasn't trying to say they did this because of that.
	I'm saying that these are the factors that played into their choices, not that that directly caused it.
	Sorry.
	Okay, you listen back to it and you tell me whether you're changing your story, but let's not worry about it right now.
	So how did you experience the verbal abuse or threats?
	What was that like?
	I don't know exactly how to say what it was that my mother said when I was young.
	I just remember she has very emotional, strong reactions to things.
	She'll be very happy and then something will be in a way that she doesn't like.
	Like we used to have a dog and the dog peed on the rug and she screams from across the house to my father like it's his fault.
	She screams to him, the dog peed on the rug and she's screaming at the top of her lungs.
	And I'm just terrified.
	And I was always terrified.
	It was just of her raising her voice, of feeling like I was worthless, of feeling like I disappointed her.
	And I would just, sometimes I was just so scared that I did something wrong, that I would be so scared I'd get sick.
	And I mean, like, physically ill, like I stayed home from school.
	And I don't know what words it was exactly.
	I just remember being very afraid of her.
	Strong emotional reactions to things, you said.
	Yeah, like if she came home and the dishes weren't done, She would get very angry at my father and yell at him and she'd be mad at everybody because of the dishes not being done or she'd be mad at everyone because she had a bad day at work.
	Hang on, no.
	But Heather, the reason why it's confusing and why I'm stopping you and I apologize for stopping you is, and for those who don't know ACE, Adverse Childhood Experiences, acestudy.org if you want to take the test.
	It's a test you want to fail.
	But you said she had very strong emotional reactions to things, right?
	Now, that doesn't have any negative connotations to it in particular, right?
	Right.
	Passionate.
	She was really, you know, when she'd see a moving film, she would cry.
	When she saw, you know, heard a long-distance phone commercial from the 80s, she would cry.
	And when she heard a joke, she would laugh.
	You know, strong emotional reactions is not particularly negative.
	What you're talking about is a bullying bitch, it sounds like to me.
	And that's a little bit different from having strong emotional reactions to people, like to things.
	Yes.
	I guess what I meant, I didn't say it the right way, is that she has strong emotional reactions to things that I don't think matter.
	She gets mad about, you know, something not being folded properly.
	And then she, that's so much more important to her than somebody else.
	And she has a strong emotional reaction to something that I don't think should be that important.
	So strong an emotional reaction that she puts that before the feelings of her family members.
	No, no.
	It's not a strong emotional reaction.
	It's bullying.
	It is.
	Okay.
	Right?
	I mean, all that you've described to me in terms of strong emotional reactions is just being a bullying bitch, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I'm trying to figure out how I want to put what it is that I want to say.
	And look, if you're going to say that someone was abusive, then I expect to hear some pejoratives.
	Because abuse is ugly, nasty, vicious, narcissistic, selfish, mean behavior.
	But then to say, well, you know, she had a bad childhood, and she had strong emotional reactions, and it's like, to take an extreme example, Hitler had a bad childhood and strong emotional reactions, but you don't see a lot of that right up in the Holocaust Museum, right?
	I get what you're saying.
	I guess what I mean is, it's not just that she takes it out on other people, it's that she gets so mad about things, and her Emotional state changes so quickly.
	I mean, the difference is that she takes those emotions out on other people.
	That's the bullying part.
	But most people don't get as upset as she does over little things, whether they take it out on other people or not.
	Okay.
	So she's a bully about little things.
	That's even worse, right?
	At least be a bully about something important, but being a bully about dishes and dog peeing is...
	Right.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	And then did you want me to clarify the other parts of that test?
	Yeah, neglect.
	Right.
	I have selective eating disorder, which is having trouble eating more than just a small selection of foods.
	And the older I get, the more I've realized I think it was very psychological.
	I've been working very hard to learn to eat more foods and a healthier diet.
	But back then it was a big deal.
	Because I would only eat basically like carbohydrates and, you know, like a little bit of dairy.
	And so I had a very unhealthy diet as a child and my family, my parents were always trying to get me to eat healthier.
	And in so doing, they would deny me food if I didn't eat what they gave me.
	And they tried to get me to eat things that to me were just completely disgusting.
	I would gag.
	I remember throwing up.
	I wouldn't eat because it was an unpleasant experience and I got so thin that one time when I went to the doctor for a checkup, the doctor started to threaten me about having to maybe go on a feeding tube if I didn't eat more.
	So that's what I meant by that neglect thing.
	Okay.
	So did the selective eating disorder start up before your parents' control of your food?
	It was going on before I could remember.
	They have videotape of me trying to feed me chicken noodle soup and I'm making faces like someone just like stabbed me with a knife.
	Ever since I even started, from what they told me, ever since I started trying to eat, they had a hard time getting me to eat more than a few foods and yeah, it's before I even remember.
	And do you have siblings?
	One.
	Yes, a brother.
	Older?
	Younger.
	Younger.
	Okay.
	Right.
	So, can you imagine what your mom was like, given that she got really angry at a dog who peed the carpet when you were a baby?
	What do you think she was like?
	What do you mean, how she was like?
	You mean...
	Oh, you mean when she was pregnant with my brother and myself, the anxiety?
	No.
	Your mother screams at the top of her lungs...
	When a dog pees on a carpet, right?
	Yes.
	I don't know if you spend a lot of time around babies, but crap comes out of them like clowns coming out of a Volkswagen at a circus, right?
	I mean, it just goes on and on, right?
	I mean, they'll crap on your leg, they'll fart in your ear, they'll pee in your eyeball, it's just non-stop sprinkler crap fest, right?
	It's like this Mount Vesuvius Krakatoa Thermageddonite Explosion of innards.
	Basically, they turn themselves inside out every day and reassemble themselves while breastfeeding.
	So, how do you think your mom was with you as a baby?
	Probably not top-notch, and there's something else I should add.
	Something I should add.
	My dad lost his job a couple weeks before my mom gave birth to me, and so she had to go back to work Pretty much right after I was born.
	And my grandmother actually spent, not her mom, my other grandmother, who was actually a very nice person who didn't seem to have as many problems.
	I spent a lot of time with her when I was really young, too.
	Let me guess, if I can, something.
	Your mother, when she was younger, on a scale of 1 to 10, how attractive was she?
	Very.
	Extremely.
	There we go!
	I knew it!
	How did I know that?
	I know how you knew that, yeah.
	How did I know that?
	Why else would my dad date someone who acted in such a way?
	No, no.
	That's not necessarily the case.
	No.
	No, because, I mean, lots of guys date bitches who are ugly too, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Then why?
	Was it her mother?
	The grandmother was your mother?
	Oh, the grandmother who watched River Mila?
	No, that was my father's mother.
	And what was her mother?
	What was her mother's story?
	My mother's story.
	Oh, and my grandmother.
	About her childhood or how my mom's childhood was under my grandmother.
	Well, you said that she was quite hitty, right?
	Yeah, both my mom's mother and father hit...
	My mom and her siblings a lot.
	The two of them would have fights where they threw plates and stuff at each other, from what I'm told.
	My grandfather died before I was born, so I never met him.
	Well, okay, but the reason that I thought that your mother was very good looking...
	So one to ten, what would she write?
	Not now, but when she was young, she'd probably be like a nine, nine and a half.
	She's really pretty.
	Okay, so top-notch, right?
	Yes.
	So when you are a child and you are very attractive, the world is your oyster, right?
	Boys bring you stuff.
	I mean, I remember when I was in junior high school, there was this girl whose name was Lisa.
	And she had, you know, two of the major assets that boys at that age are most interested in, charm and personality.
	Actually, no, they were a little bit more supportive than that.
	And she was vivacious and pretty.
	And we had one of these days where, you know, you give love notes.
	It's basically public social humiliation for everybody who's not involved in sports.
	So this girl, I guess, I don't know how old she was, maybe 14 or 15 at the time, literally like her whole desk was piled up with love notes from the boys in the class.
	I mean, that's pretty heady power.
	For a young girl, right?
	I mean, to have that level of social cachet and social power.
	And when I was in boarding school, there was this girl who I can still...
	I haven't looked at the picture in years.
	I guarantee you, I could still pick out this girl's face after 40 years.
	This girl who was the prettiest girl.
	And everybody went insane around her.
	And there's so much power in physical beauty that...
	You're growing up.
	Everybody wants to do stuff for you.
	Strangers are nice to you.
	I mean, people give my daughter candy.
	I mean, okay, they're in windowless drive-by vans, but not like she goes into a store, but, oh, here's a candy bar, because she's, you know, she's very pretty.
	And this just goes on and on.
	You get, you know, people buy you stuff, men buy you presents.
	I mean, oh, God, it's crazy.
	I mean, a girl who, you know, guys would, like, leave flowers on her porch in the Just like, yikes!
	And So you get used to coasting on, and this happens from the crib onwards, like literally, oh, what a beautiful baby, and, you know, they dress up, and then there are queens of their social circle, and they get status everywhere they go, they get more money, they get more job opportunities, people buy them stuff, they buy them trips.
	You just get massive cannon firings of sperm-based goodies all over the place when you grow up physically beautiful, as a woman in particular.
	And then you get a guy, and the guy is successful, and this and that and the other.
	And then you have a baby, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	Does the baby give a shit how pretty you are?
	I suppose not.
	I've heard that, wasn't there some study about babies tend to be happier around more attractive women?
	In terms of like, they respond better to...
	There's a mild preference for sure, but they don't fundamentally care.
	Like if you said, okay, I'll take a mom who's a seven instead of a nine and a half, if she just stopped fucking screeching all the time, you probably would have, right?
	Right, right.
	So a baby can't be controlled by a woman's beauty, right?
	Right.
	A woman's beauty can't...
	Gets her so much stuff in the world and gets her nothing but contempt from her baby if she's not developed good-hearted, warm, loving, affectionate personality skills, right?
	Right.
	You're saying, like, this has no bearing.
	Like, you're really confused at what I'm talking about here?
	No, no, no, I get what you're saying.
	Right.
	Why would this have to do anything, right?
	Sorry?
	No, no, no.
	I'm just saying, where are you going with this?
	I'm just like, okay, I get what you're saying.
	Babies don't really care how pretty you are if you don't feed them or you yell at them.
	Right.
	Babies don't care how pretty...
	Like, the whole world tries to make themselves...
	The whole world tries to ingratiate and be convenient to pretty people, particularly pretty women, right?
	Right.
	But...
	Babies are ridiculously inconvenient to moms, right?
	Right.
	They don't work at all to be convenient.
	In fact, they're fundamentally ridiculously inconvenient.
	Right?
	They bite nipples.
	They don't breastfeed.
	They don't latch.
	They wake up at night.
	They have problems passing stools.
	They crap on your arm.
	They scream sometimes for a day straight, right?
	Right.
	So...
	You understand that it's quite a shock to a pretty woman, to a beautiful woman like your mother, to have a baby that is not impressed at all by her beauty.
	See, I wonder if that's it, if it's because she's pretty.
	I mean, I'm sure that has some sort of impact, but I don't think anyone's ever...
	I don't think she's ever had to deal with anyone in a respectful manner.
	I don't think she's ever learned how to do that.
	I don't know if it's just because, oh no, this is a baby.
	But why?
	Why has she never learned how to deal with anyone in a respectful manner?
	Because for pretty women, the world is a conveyor belt of, hey, if it's not you, the next guy.
	If it's not you, it's the next guy.
	If it's not you, it's the next guy.
	Like asking for a pretty woman to develop great personality skills is like asking for somebody who inherits a billion dollars to develop a strong work ethic.
	It's not impossible.
	It's just not the rule.
	Right.
	Gotcha.
	This bothers you.
	Are you very pretty as well?
	I don't know.
	My dad brought down that a little bit.
	I don't know, like seven maybe?
	The other reason I guessed your mom was pretty was that your disorder ended up with you thin.
	Right, but she's really overweight now.
	I don't know if that helps.
	I'm talking about when you were a kid, not now.
	Oh, okay.
	Yeah, right.
	But I don't know if she wanted me to be extremely thin in particular, and she wasn't pressuring me not to eat ever.
	In fact, they were both very worried that I wasn't eating, but in trying to fix it, it just had the opposite effect, because they tried to force me to eat things that to me were repulsive, and all it was was traumatizing.
	No, no, you're sort of missing the connections, and I'm sorry, they are a bit obscure, so let me sort of spell them out.
	Your mother, through her beauty, is used to being in control and having things her way, right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	So, the only thing she knows how to do is stomp her feet and yell, because that's what pretty people in general do to get what they want, right?
	Because then the world rushes around to get them what they want, right?
	Yes, and that's how it still is.
	No, I got that, but forget about it now.
	And so, the only thing that pretty people, pretty women in general, and there's exceptions, right?
	Right.
	But the only thing that pretty women in general know how to do is to stomp their feet and yell to get what they want.
	And so when you didn't do what your mother wanted you to do, what did she do?
	When the dog peed on the carpet, what did she do?
	Yeah, she just yells.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And my trouble is that I don't necessarily want to just give up on my parents, but now as an adult...
	No, no, no.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Why are you rushing off now to some other topic?
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	The whole point of the call is not working...
	I mean, part of it is working out problems I've had in the past to deal with them and to not relive them on future children.
	But part of it's also to deal with my parents at this present point as an adult and to try to form a healthy relationship with them.
	And what I'm trying to say is she still does that and I don't know how to deal with her.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	I'm sorry.
	I don't mean to laugh.
	But I genuinely baffled what you mean when you say how to form a healthy relationship with them.
	I want to talk to my parents as people.
	I'm tired of...
	Bringing something up to my mom and having her get angry and everyone getting mad at me for upsetting her.
	I want to have an adult relationship with them.
	I don't want to just cut off ever talking to them.
	But I don't know how to talk to her without her just yelling and stomping her feet and everyone else gets mad at me for upsetting her.
	Right.
	And what magic words do you think I'm going to be able to say to change your mother's personality choices?
	I guess maybe there aren't any.
	How old is your mother?
	How old is your mother?
	Let's see, 48.
	Right.
	Has she shown any interest in change whatsoever?
	She is significantly better than she used to be.
	She doesn't usually yell anymore, and she doesn't get upset as easily, but there are still times where once in a while she's as bad as she used to be.
	I get it.
	She's fat, right?
	She's what?
	She's fat, you said, right?
	Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so she now has to adopt non-TEN strategies for getting through life, right?
	I guess.
	My dad's not going anywhere, though.
	I mean, I wouldn't see him ever leaving her, so I don't see why she has to change around him.
	Why would he never leave her?
	They're both Christian, and he is very, very Christian, and I think it would be completely against any ethics he would have to leave her, especially since She's been somewhat, I guess I would have to say that she's been emotionally abusive to him.
	He would make her dinner and she'd get upset because it wasn't what she wanted, and she would stomp off and yell at him and wouldn't eat it.
	She would treat him like garbage, even when he tried to be as nice as possible to her.
	If he hasn't left after that, and the way that she's treated him, how I've seen growing up, I don't see how he would leave, especially since he believes in the sanctity of marriage for life and whatever in terms of sin.
	Yeah, she's got a hitman called God, so she doesn't have to be a nice wife.
	Yeah, there's that.
	And I don't know, even if they weren't religious, I mean, it just seemed like a bit of an unhealthy relationship all while I was growing up and still now.
	A bit of an unhealthy relationship.
	Yes, I thought it was unhealthy, but I've seen worse in terms of people who were also physically violent, you know, parents of other kids I was friends with.
	No, it's true.
	You know, some guys get, like, two legs blown off, but other guys get, like, an arm and two legs blown off, so the guys with two legs missing are fine.
	Not that they're fine.
	I'm just saying it was and continues to be a bad relationship, but I've seen worse.
	That's all I was saying.
	All right.
	So, your mother has mellowed out a little bit, but has she shown any interest in personal growth?
	Has she expressed any interest in therapy?
	Has she expressed any remorse for past behavior?
	Has she expressed any change of heart?
	Has she admitted any faults that she did growing up?
	Has she asked you for forgiveness for things that she did wrong in the past?
	In any kind of process of self-exploration, does she journal?
	Does she read self-help books?
	Is she in any way, shape, or form showing any proactive interest in personal growth?
	No.
	So, that's your answer.
	She's not going to change.
	There's no way that if I could bring up and say, hey, I don't think we can have a relationship unless things change, that she would change if I confronted her directly?
	You mean if you threaten her?
	If you...
	Well, it's not really.
	It's consequences, right?
	Just based on the first conversations.
	But if you basically bring an ultimatum to the relationship, do you feel that that's going to make her positively grow?
	No, she'll just get upset and yell and play victim and everyone will come rushing to her aid about why I'm so mean, especially when my parents have been helping me a ton.
	With the house that my fiancé and I bought, we bought a really run-down, really cheap foreclosure, and my parents have been helping me a ton with it.
	And I don't really like it because I feel like I can't say what I want to say or do what I want to do or tell them to leave what I want to because I'm dependent on them.
	And I hate being dependent on them because I feel...
	What do you mean you hate being dependent on them?
	I don't understand that.
	You're taking their money, right?
	Because I feel like it'll be used against me.
	No, wait, wait, wait.
	Hang on, hang on.
	This is a little tip from adulthood, right?
	You're taking their money, right?
	No, no.
	I'm taking their assistance.
	They've been coming and helping me do the construction work.
	Like, my dad came and did the electrical work at my house.
	Oh, okay.
	So you're saving money by getting free labor from your parents?
	Yes.
	They've been coming and helping me.
	So you don't hate that?
	You don't hate that because you're taking it, right?
	I am, but I feel bad about it because I feel like...
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	The only reason I have him here is because I'm...
	Feel bad if you want.
	The fact is you're taking it.
	Okay.
	What does your fiancé think of your parents?
	What do you mean by...
	Is he there?
	No, no.
	He's at work.
	Just trying to think what's a good summary.
	I don't know.
	He thinks my dad is very Republican and very religious.
	And that's just the way he is.
	Okay, look, if you don't want to answer the question, don't answer the question.
	Those are just adjectives.
	Wait, I don't know what you mean.
	Does he like your parents?
	Does he think they're good people?
	Does he like them?
	No.
	All right.
	So what role does he think your parents, who he doesn't like, are going to have in your married life?
	Not a whole lot.
	I mean, he hasn't said, oh, I don't want your parents to be around or to ever visit or anything, but he doesn't have any desire to have them come and be involved in anything.
	So he'd rather they don't come, but he's willing to put up with them a bit, right?
	Yeah, it's kind of the same for me with his parents.
	Neither of our parents are necessarily people that we just want to have around.
	Right.
	Okay, so what happens if you don't have your parents around?
	I don't want to lose contact with my little brother is basically what it is.
	I'm worried if I do anything to piss off my mom, she's going to make everyone think I'm a horrible person and there's going to be this whole big drama fest.
	I feel like if I cut anything off with her or I stop associating with her, then I lose everyone in my entire family.
	I know my little brother wouldn't just leave me, but it would cause him a lot of conflict.
	To spend time with me when everyone else would be like, you know, blackballing me.
	Right.
	I'm still, so I don't know.
	I mean, you've made your decisions.
	I'm not sure what you're asking of me.
	I guess I just, it seems terrible to tell my parents, you know, oh, I don't want to be around you anymore because you're not willing to, you know, to To change who you are.
	So, sorry.
	Thanks for, you know, helping me with my house and letting me use you.
	Thanks for all the years of spending time with me, but you're not good enough.
	So, out the door.
	Okay, so don't do that.
	If you think it's horrible, then don't do it.
	Yeah, but the whole time I feel this...
	Whole inner conflict where it's just like, okay, I can suck it up and I can deal with remembering all these bad childhood memories and just not saying how I really feel and having this really messed up relationship with them where they say what they want and I just keep quiet if I disagree and know it'll upset them or cause problems.
	It just seems no matter what I do, either I have to pretend to be someone else and suppress what I really think and mess myself up inside or everyone else is going to be Upset.
	And so why don't I just be upset?
	Well, because you're talking about upset like it's morally neutral, right?
	It's not morally neutral.
	This is not a case of hot potato.
	You were raised by abusive parents.
	The abuse continues.
	You must self-erase.
	In order to be around your mother, your mother is still verbally abusive and goes on tirades and you feel is going to threaten to take away your relationship with everyone and turn everyone against you.
	She's an emotional tyrant and a bully, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So I'm not sure why people shouldn't suffer the consequences of their actions.
	Right?
	I mean, if I abuse my wife for 20 years, do you think that she should leave me?
	Yes.
	But that will be upsetting for me.
	Should she stay and appease my abuse?
	Because otherwise I'll be upset.
	Would you give her that advice?
	No.
	I guess the trouble is that when I look at my parents and I look at my mom, with as bad as she is, I have seen my grandmother and I saw what she did to my mom and to her siblings.
	And my mom is a hundred times better than my grandmother ever was.
	And she tried as hard as she could to be better.
	And I really respect that.
	She tried as hard...
	Oh, come on, Heather, Heather, Heather.
	Don't give me this propaganda.
	How on earth could you possibly know that she tried as hard as she could to be better?
	What is the proof and evidence for that?
	I know that, well, that's the thing is that I felt like it was always put on my brother and myself that my parents are saying, oh, we work all the time.
	Because when I was really young, they worked a lot.
	So we had enough money.
	We're getting off into...
	I don't know what we're getting off into.
	Let's go back to I've abused my wife for 20 years, right?
	Yeah.
	And I say, well, I worked a lot.
	The fuck does that have to do with anything?
	Did I abuse my wife or not?
	There's no court, if I beat up my wife or whatever, there's no court thing that says, well, I was working a lot.
	Oh, well, off you go then.
	We'll forbid you to leave her.
	And do you understand My wife chose to get married to me.
	You didn't choose this family.
	Right.
	I agree.
	Look, I'm not telling you to leave your mom, just to be clear.
	I'm not telling you what to do.
	I've said you can do this, you can do that.
	But I am pointing out that if you would tell a woman who'd been abused by her husband for 20 years to get out...
	That's an important moral standard.
	Either you have to tell the woman to stay or you have to feel less bad about going.
	Look, choose to stay or choose to leave, Heather, but don't stay out of emotional pressure.
	Don't stay out of fear of consequences, right?
	If you can find a way to stay and be self-expressed or even just suppress yourself or whatever you want to do, but don't stay just because your mom might be mad and mean.
	That's not a relationship.
	That's just coercion, fundamentally.
	That's just emotional blackmail and bullying.
	And yes, I will say that, because she's the parent.
	She's the mom, right?
	Right, yeah.
	I guess the thing that bothers me is that Both of my parents spent a lot of time, effort, and money throughout my childhood and my brother's childhood and even now to try to help me.
	No, no, listen, I understand.
	Heather, I understand.
	Do you know, when I was beating my wife up for those 20 years, I put her in dance classes, I put her in gymnastics classes.
	I paid a lot of money for that woman.
	And I feel that somehow that gives me the right to beat her up.
	And she can't leave me because I invested money in that woman.
	She owes me because I spent on her while I was abusing her.
	I see your point.
	I guess my problem is that I know that they put in a lot of effort as in they tried.
	And I know that you're going to be like, oh wait, how did they try when they did the horrible things to you?
	Don't give me the words.
	What did they try?
	Did they try family therapy?
	No, they didn't go to therapy.
	Did they try personal therapy for themselves?
	No, which would have been a fantastic idea.
	Agreed.
	Did they read books that were written by experts in parenting?
	I think my mom did read that...
	One, what to expect when you're expecting that that's about it.
	That's not a book about parenting.
	That's a book about pregnancy.
	Well, yeah, but I thought there's one that's for after the baby's born for how to take care of the baby.
	That's about physical needs, not emotional needs.
	That is true.
	So if I say, Heather, listen, I'm sorry your car got broken up in an accident.
	I'm going to go and fix it, right?
	Yes.
	And then I go and I just hit it with a hammer a bunch of times and then get an elephant to sit on it and then set fire to it, right?
	Right.
	And then I say, you know what?
	I did the very best I could.
	I thought hitting it with a hammer would get some dings out of it.
	I thought getting an elephant to sit on it would fix the chassis.
	And I thought setting fire to it would help clean off the paint so we could get a new paint job, right?
	And you'd say...
	What the fuck do you know about fixing a car?
	I said, I don't know.
	I've never read a goddamn thing about it.
	Would you seriously say to people, well, you know, that guy did do the best he knew how to do.
	Gotta honor him for trying.
	I'd say he's a complete and utter idiot.
	He tried, but wow, is he stupid.
	Yeah, now is it more important to fix a car or raise a child properly?
	Obviously to raise a child properly.
	Did your parents...
	Was it...
	Immaculate conception.
	I mean, I know that they're religious.
	I don't know if your brother can actually walk on water.
	Was it immaculate conception?
	Or did they do the nasty, ugly, bumping shit that you need to do to make a baby?
	Did they then have nine months of warning about having a baby?
	Did they then have another couple of months where there's not a whole lot of parenting stuff going on?
	There's a lot of maintenance and cuddling and all of that.
	So did they have at least a year or two?
	At what point did your mother know that she wanted to have children?
	A lot of people decide that in their teens.
	I know your mom was a young mom because she's only 48 now, but she probably had seven, eight, nine years with which to prepare for having a child.
	And she read not one book on how to raise a child.
	She did not go to therapy.
	She did not consult any experts.
	She did not watch any parenting shows while doing the fucking ironing in your house.
	And then you have the gall to tell me and to insult, frankly, the parents who do damn well do the work to become better parents and tell me with a straight face that your parents did the best they could.
	They didn't do the best that they could.
	You're right.
	So why are you giving me...
	You know I'm not going to believe this crap, right?
	Why are you selling me this nonsense?
	I don't understand it.
	You've heard this show before, right?
	Yes.
	So why are you trying...
	I mean, if you heard another caller, you'd be jumping out of your skin, right?
	Why are you trying to sell me this nonsense?
	I'm not trying to sell it to you, but it's, you know, it's the lies that we tell ourselves.
	Do you know that it's a lie you tell yourself?
	Yeah.
	Then why are you telling me a lie that you know yourself is a lie?
	Why are you wasting my time with all this propaganda that you know is a lie?
	Do you think that my time is not valuable?
	Do you think my listeners' time is not valuable?
	I do think that your time is valuable.
	I'm saying not what I mean to say.
	I'm trying to find the right words and I'm saying the wrong things.
	No, you're not trying to find the right words.
	You're trying to sell me your parents' bullshit.
	You're not even in the conversation yet.
	I'm just getting deprived of propaganda from your parental units.
	Yes.
	I guess what I'm trying to say is comparing my parents to my mother's parents, they did a lot better job because those people did an ethically worse job.
	What would that possibly matter to you as a child?
	I was hungry as a child because there was not enough food in the house, ever.
	Now, when I got older, I realized that there were starving children in India, right?
	Right.
	Does that mean I was not hungry as a child?
	No.
	So what the hell does it matter if your parents were better than their parents?
	Does that matter to your childhood experience?
	No, and I mean, I know that I don't want to just be able to say, when I have kids and they grow up, I don't want to be able to say, well, I did better than my parents.
	I don't want to be a horribly abusive parent who uses the excuse that, well, at least I wasn't as bad as my parents.
	That's just such a cop-out.
	Okay, so if you want to not be an abusive parent, and I'm not saying you will be, but if you want to not be an abusive parent...
	Then you need to be honest about your experiences as a child.
	If you were not raised with abuse...
	Sorry, let me rephrase that.
	In fact, let me just change that, reverse it completely.
	If you were not raised, Heather, with the tangible and empirical example of empathy towards you as a child...
	The only chance you have to empathize with your own children is to empathize with your own childhood.
	I'm going to repeat that.
	It's really important to understand this.
	If you were not raised empathetically, the only chance you have to empathize with children is to empathize with your own childhood.
	Your parents, if they are abusive, are desperately, sleeplessly, eternally committed to you not empathizing with your own childhood.
	You understand why, right?
	Right.
	Because if I was in touch with all the things that they did that hurt me, then why would I want to have anything to do with them?
	And it's not because they want you to have something to do with them, because if they gave a shit about you, then they couldn't have abused you as a child.
	It's just that when you don't have intimacy, Heather, do you know what you get as a sucky second prize?
	What?
	If you don't have love, the sucky second prize that you get is status.
	Right?
	I don't know what you mean.
	And if you don't see your parents, or if you have big fights with your parents, or if there's big problems between you and your parents, which there will be if you empathize with yourself as a child, what happens to their status in the community, in the church?
	They would obviously be looked down upon if one of their children decided not to have anything to do with them anymore.
	Right.
	And if that child basically said it's because they were abusive and unrepentant parents, right?
	Right.
	Because the whole point of Christianity is confess your sins and repent, right?
	I suppose.
	What do you mean you suppose?
	Do you not know the religion?
	No.
	Oh wait, I know the religion.
	Is that the point?
	I mean, is that the point?
	Well, we all sin.
	No, we all sin.
	We're born sinful.
	We all sin.
	How do you get into heaven?
	What's the whole point of the religion is to get you into heaven?
	How do you get into heaven?
	You acknowledge your sins and you repent.
	If you don't do that, you don't get into heaven.
	And you have to do that because you're always going to be sinning, right?
	Yes, although I think there's something in there about if you just keep doing it over and over again, you're not really doing it right in the Bible somewhere.
	I thought there was some verse, but I don't really know.
	But you understand that if they are unrepentant sinners, right?
	If they are unrepentant sinners, or if they are accused of sinful behavior by their daughter of abuse, and they are unrepentant, then they are losing massive status in the Christian community, right?
	Right.
	And there's another thing to add to this, which is that my dad in particular is really into bragging about me and my brother.
	That's your status right there.
	You don't have love, you get status.
	Yep.
	And it always drove me nuts because whenever I would do good things, he would go about bragging to people even though it embarrassed me and I didn't like it and I tried to explain that I didn't like it.
	And then whenever I did something he didn't like, that just was never brought up.
	Oh, yeah.
	I know my mother did the same thing.
	When I was in grade 8, I was taking grade 13 creative writing classes.
	And she told goddamn people in the mall.
	She didn't even know.
	I mean, I was taking adult computer science courses when I was a kid.
	I mean, my mom was just always talking about that stuff.
	But that's because she knew she was a crappy mom.
	And so she had to parade me around as accomplished because I wasn't loved.
	Yeah.
	That's the thing is it often feels like I'm just some kind of trophy or that they love someone who's not really me because all they care about are the things that they can brag about.
	Right.
	Which is their needs against your needs, right?
	Yes.
	Which is the pattern.
	This is what narcissistic people do.
	That your needs don't even exist.
	You are an object to serve their emotional needs.
	You know, when I pick up my razor to shave, I don't sit there and say, well, I don't know, maybe the razor would rather watch TV. It's just an object that I use to achieve my goal, right?
	I don't ask the car, where do you want to go today, right?
	I'm like, oh, I need to go here, right?
	That's where we go.
	That's what we do.
	It's just a thing that I use to serve my needs.
	That's how people show up to selfish people.
	You're just a thing, I believe, to serve their needs.
	And they're not going to ask you what you want any more than I'm going to ask my razor or my car or my soap.
	Hey soap, want to clean my ass?
	Or is that kind of gross?
	Up you go!
	Right?
	Scrub it out!
	Right?
	Sorry about the hair, I'm over 40.
	It's the only place it's growing.
	Basically walking with a shrub up my butt.
	It just gets so confusing because it seems like they're always trying to help me.
	But...
	And I feel like I should be grateful, but I don't like it.
	Right.
	Because it's not you they're trying to help.
	Right.
	I mean, a great example is my mom thought I needed a ceiling fan in my kitchen.
	And I said, yeah, eventually I'll buy one, but not right now because I have other things I need to get first.
	And, you know...
	I have to prioritize what I have to get to work on my house.
	And she's like, oh, what if I buy you one?
	And so I said, okay, well, sure, if you really want to, if it's white, if it matches the kitchen, you know, and it takes a regular bulb, then great.
	And so she shows up with this, like, cheap tiny fan.
	It's like this ugly brown wood, and it only takes candelabra bulbs.
	And And instead of just being like, oh, great, thanks, and then just like returning it and then having to explain later or just putting up with the ugly thing, I try to be like, well, thank you for buying this for me, but it's not exactly what I want to have in the kitchen.
	And this caused a hole to do.
	And she got mad at me and my uncle got mad at me and my dad got mad at me and how I could be so ungrateful.
	Do you know, I mean, just sharing selfish moms, right?
	It's not funny, but it's funny now after all these years.
	Do you know what my mother got my brother for Christmas once?
	What?
	A glove.
	A glove.
	Like a single glove.
	That would be one.
	Yes.
	Is there a reason why she thought this was a good idea?
	Oh, I... I think when you're trying to put my mom in reason, it's sort of like Count Dracula and a tsunami of holy water.
	And it's like, next year, I know what I'd like, the other glove.
	I think she found it, honestly, or maybe she picked it up when she was down shopping someplace, or maybe someone left it at her house.
	Here, son!
	Here's a glove!
	And it wasn't even a new glove in that room.
	I swear to God, I thought next year I was getting tampons.
	Yes.
	No, it was not a fur glove, James.
	It was just a glove.
	And you tell me if children should not get an Oscar for saying, Thanks, Mom!
	A glove!
	That's great.
	If only it was missing a G, it would be like love.
	love, but it's not.
	And we're all sitting there like, what? - A glove?
	And afterwards he's like, you know, I really feel I should get this framed.
	Oh my god.
	What do you say?
	It wasn't even wrapped.
	Here's a glove.
	Mom, there's dirt on the glove.
	Did you find it in the driveway?
	was it left on the bus what do you say What can you say?
	I don't know what you can say.
	But at least my brother wasn't a fan racist like you.
	It's got to be white.
	No brown fans.
	I'm kidding.
	So Stefan, overall then, what would be your advice for what I should do or how I should, I mean, should I, I know you don't want to just say, oh, don't ever talk to your parents again, because obviously that would get you in a lot of hot water with people and it's not really the best thing to do is give people direct, discreet advice.
	Here's how you should run your life.
	But I mean, if you could give me the best advice you have for my situation, what would it be?
	You've heard me give this advice a million times if you listen to the show.
	What am I going to say?
	That you have to do what's best for you and your kids.
	Give me that generic stuff.
	That's like my doctor saying, well, Steph, you have to do that which is best for your health.
	That'll be 50 bucks.
	It's like, I know I have to do.
	That's what's best for my health.
	That's why I'm coming to see a doctor.
	So he won't tell me what I already know, which is why I'm here.
	I'm going to go to a nutrition and says, it's important to eat best for your health.
	A little flesh that out a little bit, if you don't mind.
	Okay, there's two things that I say to people all the time, with one exception once.
	It's two things that I say.
	Number one, talk to your parents.
	Number two, get into therapy.
	Yes.
	But my advice, and some therapists agree, a lot of therapists don't.
	And I'm not a therapist, as you know, so I'm just telling you my opinion.
	I think the forgiveness thing is bullshit.
	Forgiveness is something, and I just did a show on this, I would just do it very briefly here, but forgiveness is something that needs to be earned.
	Forgiveness is something that needs to be earned.
	And...
	Giving people unearned forgiveness is like stealing from people who've earned it.
	It's like, you know what it's like?
	It's like there are two homeless guys on your street and you say, I'm going to give you guys 50 bucks.
	And you say to one guy, okay, yeah, but you have to clear my whole lawn and then you have to paint my gutters and then you have to grout my bathroom.
	And he goes and does all that and the other guy sits on the lawn drinking a beer and then you give them both 50 bucks at the end of the day.
	What's the guy who did all the work going to say?
	I do have a contrasting point, though.
	Which is, it's hard to not forgive somebody.
	To carry around anger the rest of your life.
	And to have that in you all the time.
	Hang on.
	Are you telling me that I'm carrying around anger for the rest of my life?
	Maybe you found a better way to deal with it, but I haven't.
	I'm angry a lot, and it takes a toll on me, and I don't know how to deal with it.
	Of course you're angry.
	And at the same time, you have a value called forgiveness.
	Those two are not unrelated, Heather.
	Right.
	And if I could just find a way to...
	It just feels like if there was some way to make everything right with them, that I could forgive them, then everything would be just a lot better.
	I wouldn't be so angry all the time.
	I want to do it because of selfish reasons.
	No, no.
	You're angry because you're unexpressed.
	You're angry because you're not talking to your parents about how angry you are.
	There's nothing to do.
	Forgiveness is a red herring.
	Forgiveness is a red herring.
	And forgiveness doesn't solve the problem.
	You're angry because you were wronged, grievously, repeatedly, and you continue to be grievously and repeatedly wronged.
	Your mother is still not listening to you, still imposing your wool, still bullying, still yelling, right?
	Bellowing, still yelling, still bullying, right?
	Right.
	And you are not expressed in the relationship, which means that you are squishing yourself down into non-existence for the joyful reward of being around your parents, right?
	Right.
	So I just need to tell them exactly how I feel.
	You need to have a relationship, which means you've got to be there.
	You've got to be there.
	Look, can you play tennis with two people on the same side and nobody else on the other side?
	Wouldn't be a very fun game.
	It's really not, right?
	Right.
	and expressing themselves and whatever, hitting the ball back and forth.
	A relationship is ping pong.
	It's tennis.
	It's squash.
	There's got to be two people, right?
	Right.
	Right?
	Nobody masturbates and then says, I scored.
	Right.
	There's no pickup artist who just puts on a fur glove, goes to town, and puts another notch in his belt, right?
	Wow, that one.
	He really played hard to get that time, man.
	He was sitting on me.
	He was picking my nose.
	He's like, I gotta talk this guy in with candles and shit.
	I mean, come on, give me a break.
	It's my hand.
	Do what I want, right?
	And if they get upset...
	No, go ahead.
	I just feel like whenever I say how I feel and then she freaks out and everyone gets mad at me, that in a way it's, I know it's not, but that it's my fault for upsetting everybody.
	Sure.
	I understand.
	That's what they make you feel.
	And then you say, I feel like it's my fault for upsetting everybody.
	I feel like, I don't know if you've read Real Time Relationships.
	It's free, freedomainradio.com slash free.
	That's my advice.
	It's just you stay relentlessly real in the conversation.
	You've heard me in this show, I'm like, ah, I'm really, really angry at this point or really frustrated or whatever, right?
	And I don't get mad at people or say you're being mean or you're a bastard or something like that, right?
	But you just try to stay as relentlessly real and honest and open in the relationship as you can.
	I mean, I get people who call into this show and try and erase me, not being mean or conscious, it's just their habit, all the time.
	Listen to the first call.
	Again, he wasn't being mean or anything, but that's just what he knows, right?
	And I won't be erased.
	But I won't erase the other person either.
	I'm going to yell at people and intimidate them and make them scared or whatever, right?
	Because I know I'm a little authority figure or whatever, right?
	But two people have to be erased.
	I mean, I don't think I've eclipsed you in this conversation, have I? No, no, no.
	You haven't talked over me or anything.
	No, and I don't think I've told you to not feel or not be there or whatever, right?
	I mean, I've told you where I've gotten frustrated, but I haven't erased you and I haven't erased myself.
	We're actually having a conversation, right?
	Right, which is not what happens with my parents.
	Right.
	So with your parents, you have to, I mean, my suggestion is talk to them and stay relentlessly real, right?
	If they scare you, say, I'm scared.
	If you get angry, say, now I'm angry.
	Now, the temptation is to put an answer to it, which is, well, I'm angry because you did this, or I feel this because you did that.
	It's like, I don't know.
	If it's new, if for the first time really you're being honest with your parents since you were an infant, then you don't know exactly why.
	But you stay relentlessly real.
	And, you know, they'll either try and find some way to stay in the conversation, or they'll shut down the conversation.
	They'll either explode, or run out of the room, or order you to leave, or whatever it is, right?
	Probably run out of the room because that's what happened last time.
	And then you follow.
	You follow the person out of the room and you say, I'm scared and angry and upset that you left the room.
	I'd like to continue the conversation.
	It's important to me.
	Right.
	Last time, though, she ran upstairs and locked herself in her bedroom and started crying and screaming and wouldn't talk to me.
	Okay.
	And then you can either try and talk to her outside if it escalates beyond...
	Just say, okay, well, I'm going to leave now because obviously I can't have a conversation, but I'm not going to...
	My approach was I'm not going to have another conversation with you unless we're talking about this, because this is not acceptable to me that you've run out on an important conversation for me.
	I'm not calling you mean.
	I'm not saying you're an evil person, but I am telling you I'm frustrated and upset about stuff.
	If I don't have the room to talk about that, I'm not going to pretend to talk about something else.
	Like, this conversation never happened.
	So the next conversation we're going to have is going to be about exactly this, about what happened today and how unacceptable that is.
	Right?
	Because we're not going to have a conversation about the weather like this never happened, right?
	Right.
	Because anytime I've brought stuff up and people got upset or I didn't seem exactly happy and I was actually saying what I really thought, I often got this line from my dad, which is, oh, how are you doing now?
	You weren't really acting like yourself earlier.
	Are you feeling okay?
	You weren't convenient to us.
	What's wrong?
	Do we have to fix something?
	Is a spring loose?
	Do you need oil somewhere?
	No.
	But no, I mean, so you just have to keep, you know, and then you can talk to your dad and say, Dad, I got to talk to mom about stuff.
	She keeps screaming, running out of the room and bursting into hysterical tears, but I need to talk to her about stuff.
	And he'd be like, well, he's an appeaser, right?
	So he's been with an abuser for a long time.
	He's probably an enabler.
	And so he's going to be all like, well, you just got to drop it.
	You stop upsetting your mom, blah, blah, blah.
	And it's like, so wait, am I not supposed to have any needs that are not exactly what my mom wants?
	How is that supposed to be a relationship, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And the trouble I've always had is that whenever I try to be like, well, I was trying to talk to her about this and this thing that she did that upset me, and then it's always being compared to how awful her childhood was.
	Like, how could you bring that up?
	How could you upset her about something like that when you know she's going through something, has gone through something that's like so much worse, and what you're going through is just basically, you know, nothing compared to that.
	And so they're basically true, which is you are nothing.
	People are very honest if you just listen to them.
	They'll tell you exactly what's going on.
	You just have to listen consciously.
	You have no voice, you have no existence, no reality, you can't have any needs.
	I can't hear you.
	Are you there?
	You can't hear me?
	I lost you for a second and you were really quiet.
	Sorry, so...
	Oh, you're back.
	When they say what you went through is like nothing compared to what your mother went through, your dad's being honest, whoever's being honest, right?
	Because he's saying you are nothing compared to your mother.
	You can't have an existence with your mother.
	You can't have needs that go counter to hers.
	You can't exist.
	You have to be like nothing compared to her.
	Yeah, it's always like that.
	So they're being very honest, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, everything is about whether or not she's upset.
	You know, it's never about whether or not something would upset me.
	Everything's about, is it good enough for her?
	Well, that's what people do with bullies, right?
	Is they appease.
	And the appeasement feeds the bullying, and the bullying feeds the appeasement, and the appeasement feeds the bullying, and so and so and so, right?
	Right, and so the only way to break the cycle is to stop appeasing the person, but then obviously they're not going to be very happy.
	Right, right.
	And...
	I mean, I don't know.
	I may have missed the commandment from Lord God Almighty that said that be convenient to bullies.
	That that's the sum total of ethics in this goddamn world is to abuse assholes.
	I just don't...
	I mean, Jesus himself said, I don't think I've come here for peace.
	I've come here with a sword.
	I've come to set father against son, mother against daughter, brother against brother.
	You know, I'm here to fuck everything up.
	I mean, Jesus himself was ridiculously inconvenient to the assholes of his time.
	I don't see how, even in Christianity, there's this commandment to just appease bastards and bitches.
	Yeah.
	Where is that written that that's the sum goddamn total of our existence?
	Isn't that just a way to completely castrate any moral sense or moral spine or moral strength that anyone might have?
	She's just a middle-aged hysterical bitch.
	Yeah.
	She's not some goddess from hell who can rend your soul in nine different directions.
	She's just some hysterical, monstrous...
	crone.
	I mean, I'm sorry to put it that way, but that's what you're telling me, I think.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I used to think she was the former, like, you know, when I was young.
	Of course, we all did.
	Yeah, we all did.
	I mean, they're all, you know, they're all bitch goddesses when we're young, and then they lose the goddess part and keep the bitch when we get older.
	Yep.
	But therapy, right?
	Therapy, therapy, particularly before you get married.
	Right.
	I was just trying to think.
	The last time I actually went to free therapy that was at my university.
	I've only been to therapy twice.
	Two different people.
	The first time was really helpful and the second time was very much not.
	So I think I just have to try to find the right people.
	Last time...
	Well, look, I've got how to find a great therapist with just my particular opinion on it.
	But be a discriminating buyer.
	I mean, you're putting your heart and your future and your relationships in someone's hands.
	Make sure that they align with your values or what I would consider rational values, right?
	I mean, this mantra of forgiveness, I mean, to me, this is just therapists serving abusers.
	You know, the point is to get the victims to forgive.
	You know, I don't see a lot of feminists going to rape victims and saying, well, don't press charges, just forgive.
	I don't see a lot of that.
	She didn't see a lot of that shit after 9-11.
	Yeah.
	Just forgive.
	Didn't see a lot of that shit with the communists and the Nazis.
	Fucking bomb them.
	Like, kill, kill, kill.
	Right?
	So, yeah.
	So, you know, how do you deal with dysfunctional relationships?
	You know, how do you think if somebody's in a relentlessly dysfunctional and abusive relationship, what is your remedy?
	And if they're like, well, stick it out and forgive them, it's like, well, I guess this is going to be a pretty short conversation.
	Yep.
	Well, I guess they'll just have to go shopping, I suppose.
	Yeah.
	Go shopping and, you know, it's one of the most important purchases.
	I went through...
	I didn't go with the first therapist.
	I went...
	First therapist, I thought I was putting him to sleep.
	I got almost nothing from him.
	You know, I would have paid 50 bucks to see whatever he was doodling, but I think it was probably tits or something because it didn't really have anything to do with anything.
	He was taking any notes.
	And then a therapist I met with another time.
	Oh yeah, I also went to couples therapy once with a woman who was just terrible.
	Just terrible.
	Just terrible.
	I was frustrated because the woman I was living with wasn't paying any money into the bills and wanted me to do half the housework.
	And I was like, well, that seems like bullshit and exploitive to me.
	And, you know, we went with this particular, we couldn't resolve this issue.
	She's like, you got to do half the housework.
	I'm like, you got to pay half the bills.
	No.
	Well, then I'm not doing half the housework.
	Well, that's unfair.
	You're a sexist.
	It's like, well, then you're a parasite.
	I mean, these names aren't going to help us, right?
	And this woman wouldn't take a stand, wouldn't, you know, well, communication can be difficult for a couple.
	It's like, yes!
	So help us!
	I mean, it's like me leaning over someone drowning and saying, you know, swimming is tough if you don't know how to.
	It's like, can you shut up and throw me a goddamn ring or a rope?
	Anyway.
	Yeah.
	And then I met someone, this woman who was just fantastic.
	And so, you know, I said to her, I said, oh, man, you know, I couldn't find her place.
	And I was like, I feel like we're driving around and around like a shark or something.
	He's like, wow, that's a pretty aggressive image.
	Tell me, how did that pop into your head?
	I'm like, oh, I like this already.
	I like this already.
	And so, yeah, definitely be a discriminating buyer.
	It's an incredibly important purchase.
	And remember, you know, 90% of everything is crap.
	I think 92% of podcasts.
	Not mine, though, because of these listeners.
	Of course not.
	No, but I mean, 90% of everything is crap, right?
	I mean, and 90% of therapists are probably crap, too.
	I don't know if the studies have been done, but be very conservative and be sure to grill.
	You know, somebody who's a good therapist will welcome it.
	Okay.
	Well, then I think I got what I needed to get out of this.
	All right.
	But let us know how it goes then.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, I was just going to say, I mean, before I thought that if I was able to, you know, that I was angry because I hadn't forgiven them, but now I understand it's because I've never ever confronted them and I have all this stuff inside me.
	So if I'm able to actually, you know, confront them about the things that are bothering me and not just, you know, Yes.
	Yes.
	And that is essential.
	That is absolutely essential.
	You need to model that for your children.
	You need to have that for your children.
	Your children will remind you of your parents.
	Heather, I guarantee you that.
	Your children will remind you of your parents.
	Why?
	Because they're selfish, narcissistic, screeching, shitty monsters when they're babies.
	They are!
	I mean, I love my daughter with a tribal grizzly bear fierceness.
	But, you know, she yells at me sometimes, right?
	I mean, she can be snappy, she can be moody, not very, but definitely when she was a baby.
	I mean, she's yelling, screaming.
	I mean, don't think that reminds me of my mom.
	I mean, where the hell were my needs in my relationship with my daughter when she was a baby?
	I didn't have any needs.
	I'm just catering to this screeching monster.
	Didn't think that reminded me of my childhood just a little bit.
	Well, yeah, but at that point they're your responsibility and they need your care.
	Your parents, they don't have you to take care of them.
	That's not how it works.
	Oh, it works that way eventually.
	Oh, yes, it does.
	Not if they haven't earned it.
	You might want to make that decision at some point because it doesn't stay the way it is.
	I've seen how it's been with my mom taking care of my grandmother.
	I do not want to live that life.
	Right.
	Alright.
	Well, I don't know if you're talking to anyone else, but it's late, and you've helped me a lot, and I don't want to keep you up too much later.
	No, that's it for me tonight.
	It's almost four hours, but thanks so much, Heather.
	Great conversation.
	I really appreciate you hanging in there, and I don't know if you've watched the chat window.
	But I hugely appreciate what you've been talking about.
	It's a very, very important issue and I hope you keep us updated and I hugely wish you the very best.
	I mean, and I'm really sorry for what you had to experience as a child and in particular what you have to experience now.
	It should not be this hard to have a conversation with your mother about something that bothers you.
	And that is something that, I mean, certainly in my family, we keep this communication open all the time.
	Is there any way your dad could be better?
	What didn't you like about this?
	You know, it's so important to be open to criticism from those that you love.
	Otherwise, how do you know it's love and not compliance?
	I mean, I will fiercely guard my daughter's capacity to have Thank you for taking the time to talk to me and just know you've been really helpful.
	My pleasure.
	Thanks so much.
	Well, I guess we'll talk to everyone Wednesday night.
	And please, please, please remember, we don't want a third month, I think, of lower donations.
	So if you can go to FDRURL.com slash donate, we would hugely appreciate it.
	And have yourselves a wonderful week, everyone.

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